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Merton
Jun 30th 2008, 10:01 AM
Why Satan is not bound, and in the pit, and sealed over, until Christ returns.

Because--


The context of the verse.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The verse is placed at the time after the Beast and False prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire, and the description of satan destiny at that time naturally follows because it was out of the mouth of Satan, the Beast, and the False prophet that the nations were deceived into make war against Christ—

Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Then we have the further statement concerning more warring against Christ again after the thousand years, with satans release from his prison---

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

2.

The description in the verse itself—

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The action of the binding of satan is by an angel coming down from Heaven.

Never is Christ at the cross described as an angel, or an angel from Heaven, and neither is the Holy Spirit coming down from Heaven on the day of Pentecost described as an angel, or of the action of Rev20 in Acts ch 2.
(there is an angel seen by John in Rev.10 which symbolizes Christ’s return but never is He symbolized by one at the first advent Heb.ch 1.)

Christ Himself does have a particular angel however, in fact two, among legions of others, but this angel in Rev.20:1 has a key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand, binds satan, casts satan in the bottomless pit, shuts him up there, and sets a seal, probably on the door.

The key speaks of a lock. Have you ever known God to lock something with a key which does not work perfectly? Of course not.

One has said that satan is a spirit and not physical. Well the chain is not physical either, it is a symbol used to show that the chain binding is of the strongest kind, which no one, be it spirit or man can break and escape from.

Any door that Christ opens is not closed by anyone else either—Rev.3:8




We can now go back to the trumpets and further to discover what this bottomless pit is—

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

This has direct reference to the subject of—


Eze 31:14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

Eze 32:25 They have set her a bed in the midst of the slain with all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword: though their terror was caused in the land of the living, yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit: he is put in the midst of them that be slain.

Rev. 9:1 does not indicate that the dead will return to life but only that living men on earth will return to the spirit (smoke) and ways of them who terrorized mankind in the past, and much of it was and will be for the punishing of sinners among them who ought to have known better. 5th trumpet.

However if a key is not given to this one who opens the bottomless pit in Rev.9 then it could not be opened up, and neither can be the bottomless pit of Rev.20.

The dead are not now running around on the earth are they? Of course not, and neither would satan be free to do so, during his time in the pit, where all those nations of the past lay dead, out of the sight of the living, silent, and inactive.

Satan is not only bound and in the pit, but he is sealed there when that angel is sent from Heaven to do it, when the time comes that the Spirit of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters do the sea during the thousand years.

Is God’s seal of the saints also insecure and having only a general loose meaning?

You know this is very serious when men suggest that God's sealing of satan in the pit by an angel means nothing restricting of his freedom to do as he has always done in deceiving mankind.

Paul says that satan is going about like a roaring lion and I see nothing has changed since Adam.—

1Pe 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
1Pe 5:9 Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

Nations are still being deceived since the Cross and Pentecost.

Nations are still learning war since the Cross and Pentecost.

It was some time after the Cross and Pentecost that Paul said—

Rom 16:20 Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your* feet with quickness. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you*.


Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


Act 26:18 to open their eyes [in order] to turn [them] back from darkness to light and [from] the authority of Satan to God, [in order for] them to receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among the ones having been sanctified by faith in Me.'


Merton.

vinsight4u8
Jun 30th 2008, 10:06 AM
If Satan is already in the pit, then the church of today will never reign with Christ, for...
she is way too late to get into one of the armies from heaven.
She has missed the time of salvation and the marriage.

vinsight4u8
Jun 30th 2008, 10:26 AM
Excellent job on your post!
:thumbsup:

Rev. 12 shows that the dragon had seven heads that wore crowns, the ten horns still had yet to get to the point in the future when they would be given any.
At the time of John getting the Revelation, even the seventh head on Satan hadn't yet been given his crown to rule with.

ross3421
Jun 30th 2008, 12:02 PM
Why Satan is not bound, and in the pit, and sealed over, until Christ returns.


Satan agree is not yet bound. He will be bound and released before Christ returns.



Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The verse is placed at the time after the Beast and False prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire, and the description of satan destiny at that time naturally follows because it was out of the mouth of Satan, the Beast, and the False prophet that the nations were deceived into make war against Christ—


Chapter 20 is not chronological. The 1000 years are metaphorical. Satan is destroyed upon Christ's second coming.

The Wicked is the reference to Satan

2th 2:8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Are there two little seasons?




16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Then we have the further statement concerning more warring against Christ again after the thousand years, with satans release from his prison---

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


Are there two battles of Gog and Magog?



Never is Christ at the cross described as an angel, or an angel from Heaven

Actually if you look close John is speaking with Christ all along in Rev in the form of an angel. Who comes quickly? Who has rewards? Who is the Alpha and Omega? Why would John bow down to this angel?



Re 22:8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.

Re 22:10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Re 22:12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.Re 22:13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


Christ is the one with the keys of Hell......


Mark

John146
Jun 30th 2008, 03:21 PM
I'd like to present the amil understanding of the binding of Satan and the scripture that supports this view.

The binding of Satan has to do with him being restrained and not being able to deceive the nations as he did before Christ came the first time, rather than being completely restrained and unable to deceive at all. He was bound at the cross. After the cross, he was not able to deceive the nations as He did before then.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. - Hebrews 2:14-15

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. - Col 2:13-15

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. - 1 John 3:8

One of the reasons Jesus came was to destroy the works of the devil and set people free from sin. Did He fail? Did the gospel not go out into nations where they never had a relationship with God before? Did He not succeed in delivering the Gentile nations from Satan's grasp? Before Christ came there were very, very few Gentiles that were saved. But things changed after He came. Millions and millions of Gentiles have been saved as a result of His sacrifice for them on the cross. Jesus took the power of death away from Satan that Satan used to use to keep people in bondage to the fear of death. The Gentile nations had no hope for eternal life because they had no relationship with God. That changed once Christ came.

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. - 1 Peter 2:9-10

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. - Ephesians 2:11-13

People from the Gentile nations had virtually no relationship with God before Christ came. They were not the people of God. After He came, they could be called the people of God because of Christ. They used to aliens from the commonwealth of Israel but are brought near by the blood of Christ. No longer did Satan have the grip on them that he once had.

The following passages also speak about the binding of Satan:

28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. - Matthew 12:28-29

26And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. - Mark 3:26-27

20But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
21When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: 22But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils. - Luke 11:20-22

The strong man is Satan. The one stronger than him that came and overcame him is Jesus. Jesus came and took the power of death away from Satan. Jesus spoiled Satan's goods (Gentile nations) and his house (his kingdom, the world). He divided his spoils by setting free many who had been under Satan's grasp. The gospel made a huge impact on the Gentile nations compared to the way they were before. Millions of Gentiles have come to know Christ in the New Testament time period compared to relatively few having a relationship with God in Old Testament times. After His Spirit came upon the believers at Pentecost, the gospel went out in full force into the world, starting in Jerusalem. This was unprecedented. It was evidence that Satan could no longer stop the spread of God's Word to the Gentile nations.

Regarding the identity of "the angel of the Lord" in Revelation 20:1, it is possible that it's not referring to an angel. The Greek word used is "aggelos" (Strong's 32) which means "a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God". With that definition, it could refer to Christ or the Holy Spirit. But I think it refers to Michael the archangel and coincides with Michael and his angels casting Satan and his angels out of heaven (Rev 12), which I believe happened long ago at the time Christ died on the cross and rose again. I believe the bottomless pit is a term for the spiritual realm outside of heaven that surrounds the earth. So, Satan's binding coincided with him being cast out of heaven, no longer able to accuse men before God because Jesus had taken His place on the throne, mediating for God's people.

vinsight4u8
Jun 30th 2008, 03:34 PM
So you and all of us have missed the marriage supper of the Lamb - for it happened before Jesus Christ died on the cross - as in Satan became bound?

Rev. 19
salvation
marriage
armies of saints come from heaven
one army goes on to fight the beast

This was all before Jesus Christ died and Satan was bound, as you see it?
-
for it is after all of this that ch 20 can have Satan bound and the saints from the two armies begin to reign.

John146
Jun 30th 2008, 03:56 PM
So you and all of us have missed the marriage supper of the Lamb - for it happened before Jesus Christ died on the cross - as in Satan became bound?

Rev. 19
salvation
marriage
armies of saints come from heaven
one army goes on to fight the beast

This was all before Jesus Christ died and Satan was bound, as you see it?
-
for it is after all of this that ch 20 can have Satan bound and the saints from the two armies begin to reign.

You are assuming that what is described in Revelation 20 must follow what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically. Do you read the entire book chronologically? I hope not because if you did you'd have the birth of Christ following the seventh trumpet (see Rev 11-12).

vinsight4u8
Jun 30th 2008, 03:59 PM
You are assuming that what is described in Revelation 20 must follow what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically. Do you read the entire book chronologically? I hope not because if you did you'd have the birth of Christ following the seventh trumpet (see Rev 11-12).

No, I know how John has put the book together as to in a logical way...but Rev. 20 links back to Rev. 19 as to
"And I saw thrones and they sat..."
Who?
You need Rev. 19 to know that.
It is the army that fought at the battle on God's side against the beast.
Plus, the beast time comes first - in Rev. 19 - for the other army refused his mark, etc. and was slain.

John146
Jun 30th 2008, 04:10 PM
No, I know how John has put the book together as to in a logical way...but Rev. 20 links back to Rev. 19 as to
"And I saw thrones and they sat..."
Who?
You need Rev. 19 to know that.
It is the army that fought at the battle on God's side against the beast.
Plus, the beast time comes first - in Rev. 19 - for the other army refused his mark, etc. and was slain.

You can at least acknowledge that not all of the book is intended to be read chronologically, right? I gave you the example of Revelation 11 and 12.

vinsight4u8
Jun 30th 2008, 04:27 PM
Rev. 19:1 (starts a new section of stuff)
"And after these things I heard....clear to ch 20 and more.

You said that to read Rev. chronologically would have the birth of Jesus following the 7th trumpet.
as to - Rev. 11 and then ch 12 - where the woman is seen.

I want to ask you to look again, as what actually happens at the end of Rev. 11 is our link back to ch 16.

"...and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."
(John was writing of the announcement type of message - as to what will come at the end of the next set of punishment time.
the vials of God's wrath
are to last till the things listed in v19 of ch 11.

But then, hey, shouldn't the vials come next in order? Absolutely, and they do.
Head to chapter 16.

Firstfruits
Jun 30th 2008, 04:32 PM
Why Satan is not bound, and in the pit, and sealed over, until Christ returns.

Because--


The context of the verse.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The verse is placed at the time after the Beast and False prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire, and the description of satan destiny at that time naturally follows because it was out of the mouth of Satan, the Beast, and the False prophet that the nations were deceived into make war against Christ—

Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Then we have the further statement concerning more warring against Christ again after the thousand years, with satans release from his prison---

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

2.

The description in the verse itself—

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The action of the binding of satan is by an angel coming down from Heaven.

Never is Christ at the cross described as an angel, or an angel from Heaven, and neither is the Holy Spirit coming down from Heaven on the day of Pentecost described as an angel, or of the action of Rev20 in Acts ch 2.
(there is an angel seen by John in Rev.10 which symbolizes Christ’s return but never is He symbolized by one at the first advent Heb.ch 1.)

Christ Himself does have a particular angel however, in fact two, among legions of others, but this angel in Rev.20:1 has a key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand, binds satan, casts satan in the bottomless pit, shuts him up there, and sets a seal, probably on the door.

The key speaks of a lock. Have you ever known God to lock something with a key which does not work perfectly? Of course not.

One has said that satan is a spirit and not physical. Well the chain is not physical either, it is a symbol used to show that the chain binding is of the strongest kind, which no one, be it spirit or man can break and escape from.

Any door that Christ opens is not closed by anyone else either—Rev.3:8




We can now go back to the trumpets and further to discover what this bottomless pit is—

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

This has direct reference to the subject of—


Eze 31:14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

Eze 32:25 They have set her a bed in the midst of the slain with all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword: though their terror was caused in the land of the living, yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit: he is put in the midst of them that be slain.

Rev. 9:1 does not indicate that the dead will return to life but only that living men on earth will return to the spirit (smoke) and ways of them who terrorized mankind in the past, and much of it was and will be for the punishing of sinners among them who ought to have known better. 5th trumpet.

However if a key is not given to this one who opens the bottomless pit in Rev.9 then it could not be opened up, and neither can be the bottomless pit of Rev.20.

The dead are not now running around on the earth are they? Of course not, and neither would satan be free to do so, during his time in the pit, where all those nations of the past lay dead, out of the sight of the living, silent, and inactive.

Satan is not only bound and in the pit, but he is sealed there when that angel is sent from Heaven to do it, when the time comes that the Spirit of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters do the sea during the thousand years.

Is God’s seal of the saints also insecure and having only a general loose meaning?

You know this is very serious when men suggest that God's sealing of satan in the pit by an angel means nothing restricting of his freedom to do as he has always done in deceiving mankind.

Paul says that satan is going about like a roaring lion and I see nothing has changed since Adam.—

1Pe 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
1Pe 5:9 Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

Nations are still being deceived since the Cross and Pentecost.

Nations are still learning war since the Cross and Pentecost.

It was some time after the Cross and Pentecost that Paul said—

Rom 16:20 Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your* feet with quickness. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you*.


Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


Act 26:18 to open their eyes [in order] to turn [them] back from darkness to light and [from] the authority of Satan to God, [in order for] them to receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among the ones having been sanctified by faith in Me.'


Merton.

Thanks Merton,

I agree that Satan has not yet been bound, can I also say then that the millennium has not yet begun, since Satan is bound at the begining of it?

Firstfruits

Merton
Jun 30th 2008, 10:53 PM
Thanks Merton,

I agree that Satan has not yet been bound, can I also say then that the millennium has not yet begun, since Satan is bound at the begining of it?

Firstfruits


Absolutely,

and light dispells darkness absolutely.





Merton.

wpm
Jul 1st 2008, 02:19 AM
Why Satan is not bound, and in the pit, and sealed over, until Christ returns.

Because--


The context of the verse.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Revelation 20 is the last of 7 parallels. The same Satan that is “shut … up” in the abyss through Christ first advent is then released at the end, just prior to Christ’s return and final judgment. Revelation 9:1-3 correlates, saying, “I saw a star pipto (or) descend from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key (or authority) of the abussos (or) abyss. And he opened the abussos (or) abyss pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.”

This period in view refers to the third of seven parallels in Revelation and specifically covers the period preceding the return of Christ. The locusts symbolically represent the demonic host that are currently imprisoned in the abyss. Revelation 20:1-3 similarly states, “And I saw an angel come down (or descend – Strong’s 2597) from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.” We must carefully note a few things here, which most commentators seem to overlook. Firstly, this “star” descended “from heaven unto the earth.” Secondly, having settled on “the earth” the “star” gained direct rule and authority over the abyss. Regardless of one’s theological position, we must accept that the abyss (however we understand it) is located on earth. Saying this, if the aforementioned is true then it would lead us to the definite assumption that the abyss was specifically referring to the invisible realm and therefore represent a spiritual state or condition for the fallen angels rather than an actual physical place. The whole symbolism surrounding the abyss seems to identify it with the abode of the kingdom of darkness and a place of distinct evil, albeit a place that still witnesses arrivals and departures for the demonic realm, symbolically represented by such imagery as “locusts” and “scorpions.”

I believe the scorpions in Revelation are the demonic spirits that work under the influence of Satan. The same symbolism is used by Christ in Luke 10:19, where He says, “Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”I don’t think anyone would suggest that this is talking about physically walking over wicked people, no. It is speaking about walking spiritually over spiritual beings that are appointed to oppose the Church.

It is worth noting, Revelation 8:10-11 uses similar language, saying, “there pipto (or) descended a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.”

Revelation 9:4-6 continues, “And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.”

The first thing we see is, whilst these devils are released from their place of restraint – the abyss – they are restricted on whom they can inflict harm. These devils are given scope to afflict the wicked, but significantly, have no power over the righteous (who have God’s seal in their forehead). The redeemed of God remain outside their area of injury, being under the seal of God and therefore under divine protection. They are “sealed with that holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1:13) “unto the day of redemption” (Ephesians 4:30). This is God’s eternal stamp of ownership. It is “only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads” that will be tormented. In fact they will be assaulted to such a degree at the end that that they will desire death rather than continue in their tormented state.

Verse 6 says, “in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.” It seems that the anguish of the mind is so intense that death seems to be the only way out. It is the only release from the torture. Nothing illustrates the character of the kingdom of darkness more than the torment devils subject humans to. It seems that these demons haunt men to such a state that they lose even the desire to live. This correlates with the release of Satan from his tight restraint in the Abyss and the manifestation of his “little season” (Revelation 20 just prior to the end.

Verse 7-10 continues, “And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.”

These locusts are depicted as an army on the march. They are an army on a demonic and assignment. Their instruction is to torment and sting the inhabitants of the world although they are unable to touch the righteous.

Moreover, Revelation 9:11 tells us that this demonic pit “had a king over them, which is the angel of the abussos (or) abyss, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

In piecing the apocalyptic jigsaw together we find that this dark spiritual dungeon currently has a king over it. This gives us insight into the fact that the abyss must be speaking of a kingdom. Moreover, that kingdom is imprisoned in its own darkness. The fact that there is a king currently ruling tells us that the abyss must contain a kingdom. The word kingdom means ‘king with a domain’. Its meaning includes the territory and the people over whom the King rules and exercises sovereign authority. The term also includes the legislation and laws that administrate that kingdom. The word employed in the New Testament for ‘kingdom’ is the Greek word basileia denoting ‘sovereignty, royal power, kingship and dominion’. A kingdom must therefore have (1) a king – a head, (2) a domain to rule over – subjects and territory, (3) a structure of administration – ethics, rules and laws which govern it.

We all know, there are only two spiritual realms in conflict on this earth – the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. Whilst these two kingdoms manifest through physical individuals they are invisible empires. The kingdom being described which “the destroyer” rules over is assuredly not the kingdom of God. The elect angels are never located in the abyss but rather in heavenly splendour. Therefore, we must be speaking of the dark restrained invisible spiritual realm of the devil’s kingdom.

Who is this king (the destroyer) that currently reigns over “the bottomless pit” or abyss? It is Satan. There is no doubt that Abaddon / Apollyon are referring to someone within the demonic realm. This begs an instant question, who is the king that rules over that realm? Satan. Strong’s Concordance corroborates this viewpoint describing Apollyon (623) as “a destroyer (i.e. Satan).” Moreover, when we examine the root Greek word apollumi (Strong’s 622) we find it means “to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively.” The word is variously translated destroy, die, lose, mar, perish in the King James Version. There can be little doubt that Apollyon is referring to the devil. Time after time in Scripture we see Satan being described in such a destructive way. The name and characteristics of this being seem to identify him with that great enemy of the Church – the devil.

Paul

wpm
Jul 1st 2008, 02:38 AM
No, I know how John has put the book together as to in a logical way...but Rev. 20 links back to Rev. 19 as to
"And I saw thrones and they sat..."
Who?
You need Rev. 19 to know that.
It is the army that fought at the battle on God's side against the beast.
Plus, the beast time comes first - in Rev. 19 - for the other army refused his mark, etc. and was slain.

But all the wicked are destroyed in Rev 19, there is no one left to populate your millennium. Please read Rev 19 slowly.




Rev. 19:1 (starts a new section of stuff)
"And after these things I heard....clear to ch 20 and more.

You said that to read Rev. chronologically would have the birth of Jesus following the 7th trumpet.
as to - Rev. 11 and then ch 12 - where the woman is seen.I want to ask you to look again, as what actually happens at the end of Rev. 11 is our link back to ch 16.

"...and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."
(John was writing of the announcement type of message - as to what will come at the end of the next set of punishment time.
the vials of God's wrath
are to last till the things listed in v19 of ch 11.

But then, hey, shouldn't the vials come next in order? Absolutely, and they do.
Head to chapter 16.

I disagree. CYCLE 6 is about Babylon (Ch 17-19).


Paul

vinsight4u8
Jul 1st 2008, 11:06 AM
Only the wicked at the battle are slain.
the kings of the earth and their armies
(at the battle)

Hook Rev. 16 to it?
"..to gather them to the battle..."
v14

Notice how it also warns people to watch and keep their garments as He will come like a thief.
Jesus must be expecting some people to be left to survive on the earth, besides Israel.

The remnant from the battle evil bunch will be slain by the Lord.
shown in Rev. 19

Rev. 19 links right to chaper 20, John doesn't place a break between these.

You need chapter 19 to know that John meant the one army that fought at the battle - takes their seats to reign, and so does the non-Armageddon army take their seats - for they are the trib martyrs that had the victory already before the marriage of the Lamb time.

vinsight4u8
Jul 1st 2008, 11:14 AM
Chapter 18 does not link right up with Rev. 19 as we find this as the start of ch 19.

"And after these things..."

So that part for ch 18 ended, now a new section starts for chapter 19 and continues - even with ch 20.

Yankee Candle
Jul 1st 2008, 11:24 AM
One thing for sure, we are nearing the end. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this were 'that generation' that Jesus spoke of concerning the end of the world.

Come quickly, Lord Jesus!

vinsight4u8
Jul 1st 2008, 11:28 AM
Consider that chapter 16's battle is during the time of the vials...so shove that vial time also into Rev. 19. We know that the vials (per 15:1) are the last seven plagues...so how long are they to last?

John referred to them as a sign - marvellous...Daniel wrote as to how there will come a period of 45 days...and Micah 7 shows the Assyrian will be punished for (45 days).
Micah 7:15 = according to the days
marvellous stuff is to be shown to the Assyrian that desolates Jerusalem
Micah told us that it will be the length of time it took for Israel to come out of Egypt - that was 45 days per Exodus 16:1.

Yankee Candle
Jul 1st 2008, 11:34 AM
Consider that chapter 16's battle is during the time of the vials...so shove that vial time also into Rev. 19. We know that the vials (per 15:1) are the last seven plagues...so how long are they to last?

John referred to them as a sign - marvellous...Daniel wrote as to how there will come a period of 45 days...and Micah 7 shows the Assyrian will be punished for (45 days).
Micah 7:15 = according to the days
marvellous stuff is to be shown to the Assyrian that desolates Jerusalem
Micah told us that it will be the length of time it took for Israel to come out of Egypt - that was 45 days per Exodus 16:1.

Not sure just where you are going with this but I will think on it.

vinsight4u8
Jul 1st 2008, 11:51 AM
Not sure just where you are going with this but I will think on it.
All right, good for you!

Using parts of Rev 16 and 19...
I'm trying to show wpm and others that God does not intend to destroy every person not of Israel during the battle of Armageddon.
People are told to keep their garments - as to Jesus will come like a thief.
We see, Jesus left much earlier, at the 7th trumpet but He will come back with His saints for the battle of Armageddon to take down the beast of Iraq. )Assyria

This in Revelation lines up with Daniel 12 as to he wrote as to a time of 1290 days where people can go and rest till that day, but for the 1335th day - people have to wait and come to that day to get blessed.
Daniel knew of a time of 45 days - where if people remain alive, they can still get blessed, not eternal life but get to live on the earth still.

This 45 days fits with what Micah wrote as to the Assyrian will desolate Jerusalem and then get shown marvellous [things] by God for a specific length of time...Micah didn't tell us outright the length it will last, but instead gives us a clue.
He told us -that it would be according to the days of Israel coming out of Egypt.
So we go find that in Exodus 16:1 - as to when God let the quail and manna start...and we find that was 45 days.
God had let them know that He had brought them out of Egypt.

wpm
Jul 1st 2008, 02:30 PM
Only the wicked at the battle are slain.
the kings of the earth and their armies
(at the battle)

Hook Rev. 16 to it?
"..to gather them to the battle..."
v14

Notice how it also warns people to watch and keep their garments as He will come like a thief.
Jesus must be expecting some people to be left to survive on the earth, besides Israel.

The remnant from the battle evil bunch will be slain by the Lord.
shown in Rev. 19

Rev. 19 links right to chaper 20, John doesn't place a break between these.

You need chapter 19 to know that John meant the one army that fought at the battle - takes their seats to reign, and so does the non-Armageddon army take their seats - for they are the trib martyrs that had the victory already before the marriage of the Lamb time.

It is talking about 2 kingdoms that are at war - the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. This is consistent with repeated Scripture. This narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs is immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7) – everyone left behind is completely consumed; the birds of heaven completely eating “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the all-inclusive nature of this feast.

Paul

wpm
Jul 1st 2008, 02:33 PM
All right, good for you!

Using parts of Rev 16 and 19...
I'm trying to show wpm and others that God does not intend to destroy every person not of Israel during the battle of Armageddon.
People are told to keep their garments - as to Jesus will come like a thief.
We see, Jesus left much earlier, at the 7th trumpet but He will come back with His saints for the battle of Armageddon to take down the beast of Iraq. )Assyria

This in Revelation lines up with Daniel 12 as to he wrote as to a time of 1290 days where people can go and rest till that day, but for the 1335th day - people have to wait and come to that day to get blessed.
Daniel knew of a time of 45 days - where if people remain alive, they can still get blessed, not eternal life but get to live on the earth still.

This 45 days fits with what Micah wrote as to the Assyrian will desolate Jerusalem and then get shown marvellous [things] by God for a specific length of time...Micah didn't tell us outright the length it will last, but instead gives us a clue.
He told us -that it would be according to the days of Israel coming out of Egypt.
So we go find that in Exodus 16:1 - as to when God let the quail and manna start...and we find that was 45 days.
God had let them know that He had brought them out of Egypt.

I prefer to go with Christ.

Jesus said in Luke 17,“the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (v27).

Jesus continues,“the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all” (v29).

The Lord concludes, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (or) apokaluptetai” (v 30).

Paul

vinsight4u8
Jul 1st 2008, 02:49 PM
It is talking about 2 kingdoms that are at war - the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. This is consistent with repeated Scripture. This narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs is immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7) – everyone left behind is completely consumed; the birds of heaven completely eating “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the all-inclusive nature of this feast.

Paul

In Rev. 19 the fowls are told to gather - not just eat everybody all over the earth. They are called to the place of the battle supper.

vinsight4u8
Jul 1st 2008, 02:53 PM
In Rev. 19 - the beast and the kings of the earth - and thier armies - gather - so - one area is for the battle.

We then get told - the battle results
beast and the false prophet - end up in the lake of fire

and Jesus slays the remnant

vinsight4u8
Jul 1st 2008, 02:56 PM
Chapter 20 continues the battle results story -as to what happens to Satan - and how he can't deceive the nations for 1000 years.

then we need to know what happens to God's side - His army:
"And I saw thrones, and they sat on them..."
The fought at the battle for God side army gets thrones to sit on...

What about God's other army that came from the marriage?
The verse continues to show that the trib martyrs already had victory =lived and reigned.

vinsight4u8
Jul 1st 2008, 03:05 PM
I prefer to go with Christ.

Jesus said in Luke 17,“the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (v27).

Jesus continues,“the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all” (v29).

The Lord concludes, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (or) apokaluptetai” (v 30).

Paul

People are fleeing out of the place that will be punished - if you want to compare it to the days of Sodom.
God did not go all over the earth slaying people.
It was Lot's wife that looked back at the place to be destroyed.

Mograce2U
Jul 1st 2008, 03:18 PM
Consider that chapter 16's battle is during the time of the vials...so shove that vial time also into Rev. 19. We know that the vials (per 15:1) are the last seven plagues...so how long are they to last?

John referred to them as a sign - marvellous...Daniel wrote as to how there will come a period of 45 days...and Micah 7 shows the Assyrian will be punished for (45 days).
Micah 7:15 = according to the days
marvellous stuff is to be shown to the Assyrian that desolates Jerusalem
Micah told us that it will be the length of time it took for Israel to come out of Egypt - that was 45 days per Exodus 16:1.I am not sure that you can tie Micah 7:15 to Ex 16:1 as being the same 45 days of Dan 12 and then somehow use that to show a time frame for Rev 15. The Lord fed the Israelites in the wilderness for 40 years during which He showed them marvelous signs and wonders. Which is a similar period of time during the days of the apostles who also showed signs and wonders from the Lord to Israel as they fed the gospel to them. Both periods of which ended in their unbelief...

wpm
Jul 1st 2008, 03:35 PM
People are fleeing out of the place that will be punished - if you want to compare it to the days of Sodom.
God did not go all over the earth slaying people.
It was Lot's wife that looked back at the place to be destroyed.

He doesn't compare the happenings of the earth at the end to the whole earth in Lot's day but rather the calamity that befell Sodom. What happened in Sodom will engulf the whole earth. All the wicked will be destroyed. This agrees with Revelation 19.

Revelation 19 negates any possibility of the Premillennial view as it depicts the total destruction of the wicked at Christ’s Coming. There are expressly no survivors. How then can human beings saturate a future millennial kingdom as the sand of the sea?

The extent of that supper is revealed in verses 17-18, saying,“I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast,and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beastwas taken, and with him the false prophetthat wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy(or) remaining ones (or) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

The whole thrust of this reading surrounds a climactic end to the world. Like the rest of Scripture, it records the complete rescue of the saints in the “marriage of the lamb” and the complete destruction of the wicked when the fowls consume the entire wicked left behind. The passage makes mno allowance for goats-survivors in this great destruction passage or mortals squeezing into a supposed future millennium. This reading seems to fit in with the scriptural pattern of an all-consummating Coming - all the wicked being consumed.

Paul

wpm
Jul 1st 2008, 03:39 PM
In Rev. 19 - the beast and the kings of the earth - and thier armies - gather - so - one area is for the battle.

We then get told - the battle results
beast and the false prophet - end up in the lake of fire

and Jesus slays the remnant

Revelation 13:8 states, “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

The beast's army are all the wicked!!!

Paul

vinsight4u8
Jul 1st 2008, 03:41 PM
I am not sure that you can tie Micah 7:15 to Ex 16:1 as being the same 45 days of Dan 12 and then somehow use that to show a time frame for Rev 15. The Lord fed the Israelites in the wilderness for 40 years during which He showed them marvelous signs and wonders. Which is a similar time to the days of the apostles who also showed signs and wonders from the Lord to Israel as they fed the gospel to them.

Micah 7:7
"Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me."
v11
"In the day that thy walls are to be built, [in] that day shall the decree be far removed."
v12
"[In] that day [also] he shall come even to thee from Assyria,..."
v 13
"...the land shall be desolate..."
v 15
"According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous [things]."
v20
"Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, [and] the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old."


Exdous 16:1
'And they took their journey...the congregation of the children of Isreal came unto the wilderness of Sin...on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt."

They start to murmer and complain as to - they used to eat in Egypt to the full.
Now comes...
"Then the LORD said unto Moses, Behold I will rain bread from heaven for you.."
"And Moses and Aaron said unto all the children of Israel, At even, then ye shall know that the LORD hath brought you out from the land of Egypt."

v32
"And Moses said, This is the thing which the LORD commandeth, Fill an omer of it to be kept for your generations that they may see the bread...when I brought you forth out of the land of Egypt."

Micah 7:15
"According to thy days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt..."

The 5th chapter of Micah shows that first the One to rule all the nations would come forth out of Bethlehem and then later the Assyrian would attack Israel.

Along with the prophecy in Rev. 12 - out of the woman - would come the One that is to rule all the nations.

Firstfruits
Jul 1st 2008, 03:42 PM
Consider that chapter 16's battle is during the time of the vials...so shove that vial time also into Rev. 19. We know that the vials (per 15:1) are the last seven plagues...so how long are they to last?

John referred to them as a sign - marvellous...Daniel wrote as to how there will come a period of 45 days...and Micah 7 shows the Assyrian will be punished for (45 days).
Micah 7:15 = according to the days
marvellous stuff is to be shown to the Assyrian that desolates Jerusalem
Micah told us that it will be the length of time it took for Israel to come out of Egypt - that was 45 days per Exodus 16:1.

With understanding that the final gathering for battle takes place after the millennium has finished and that Jesus returns at that time, does the battle at Armageddon not imply the Jesus comes at that time too?

Rev 16:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Rev 20:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Does that mean that during the millennium God wrath is being poured out?

Firstfruits

vinsight4u8
Jul 1st 2008, 03:53 PM
Revelation 13:8 states, “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

The beast's army are all the wicked!!!

Paul

Keep in mind the other vials have already happened...men have been in turmoil, and just regular days some people are found to be
too sick
too old
too young
etc.

to be in an army

There will still be people living in other places on the earth after the battle at Armageddon is over.
Those are the people that live on into the millenium, just as Daniel wrote as to those that have to
wait
and come to
the day

These are not people that can go to the grave, but they must wait and come to the day - come to the 1335th day...in order to get blessed to live while Jesus reigns for the 1000 years.

wpm
Jul 1st 2008, 04:51 PM
Keep in mind the other vials have already happened...men have been in turmoil, and just regular days some people are found to be
too sick
too old
too young
etc.

to be in an army

There will still be people living in other places on the earth after the battle at Armageddon is over.
Those are the people that live on into the millenium, just as Daniel wrote as to those that have to
wait
and come to
the day

These are not people that can go to the grave, but they must wait and come to the day - come to the 1335th day...in order to get blessed to live while Jesus reigns for the 1000 years.

You are missing the application. This is a book full of symbolism denoting the great battle between light and darkness. There are only two different peoples in this life, walking two different roads, in two different directions, to two different destinations. The Christian is bound for heaven; the sinner is bound for hell. One group has the mark of the Father the other the mark of the beast. One is rescued in the marriage of the lamb, the other is destroyed.

They are represented as 2 armies that are in conflict. God's army returns with Him, the devil's are destroyed by Christ's Coming. You are trying to limit what the Holy Spirit is saying. All flesh is destroyed here as it was in Noah's day and in Sodom. There were no survivors. You are side-stepping the actual wording of Rev 19.

II Thessalonians 1:4-10, similarly says, “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeingit is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

The fact is, men either know God or else they don’t. If they don’t they will be destroyed at His Coming. Moreover, men either obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ or else they don’t. We must always remember, the Word of God is primarily our signpost to Christ and salvation. Obedience to God’s Word therefore means humbling one’s self before the Lord in faith and repentance. We must accept our own sinful state; we must repent of our sin; we must accept Christ as Saviour and Lord of our lives. Jesus warns, “except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3). Those that don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ will therefore “be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.”

This view is supported by 1 Peter 4:17-18, which says, “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

This passage places men in one of two camps – either saved or lost. It knows nothing of any other calibre or status of person. There are no half-saved and half-lost persons. Equally there is no subset or subgroup. Men are either fully saved or fully lost. There are no partially redeemed saints, and there are no partially lost. The saved belong to “the house of God” and are described in this reading as “the righteous.” The unsaved on the other hand are identified as “the ungodly” or simply “the sinner” and “them that obey not the gospel of God.” Here “them that obey not the gospel of God” are depicted as the antithesis company to the righteous. In fact, this passage is contrasting the fate of the only two peoples that have been found on this earth since Adam – the saved and the lost.

Rev 20 is simply a return to the victory of the resurrection.

Paul

Mograce2U
Jul 1st 2008, 05:03 PM
Micah 7:7
"Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me."

Is this not Messiah they are waiting for?

v11
"In the day that thy walls are to be built, that day shall the decree be far removed."

This is the order going forth to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, which brings an end to the decree which concerns Assyria and Israel.

v12
"[In] that day [also] he shall come even to thee from Assyria,..."

(Micah 7:12 KJV) [I]In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

This is Assyria who came against the 10 tribes about 100 years before the BC. Babylon's assault on Judah will follow this example.

v 13
"...the land shall be desolate..."

(Micah 7:13 KJV) Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.

And for 70 years it was.


Now he returns to the part that is their far off hope going beyond this time which is near.


v 15
"According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous [things]."

The 40yrs between the 1st coming of Christ and the city's destruction fits here as well.

v20
"Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, [and] the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old."

Jesus has done this.

The 5th chapter of Micah shows that first the One to rule all the nations would come forth out of Bethlehem and then later the Assyrian would attack Israel.

The 5th chapter is about Babylon

Along with the prophecy in Rev. 12 - out of the woman - would come the One that is to rule all the nations.The birth of Jesus has come as predicted!

Micah was a prophet during the days of king Hezekiah and Isaiah. He is predicting the Babylon Capitivity to a people who apparently learned nothing from the Assyrian invasion of the northern kingdom. He reminds them of their long term hope which was met in the arrival of Messiah in His first coming. This is typical of all the OT prophets who speak of near and far things which concern the people as they wait for the Holy One of Israel to come.

John146
Jul 1st 2008, 05:15 PM
Revelation 20 is the last of 7 parallels. The same Satan that is “shut … up” in the abyss through Christ first advent is then released at the end, just prior to Christ’s return and final judgment. Revelation 9:1-3 correlates, saying, “I saw a star pipto (or) descend from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key (or authority) of the abussos (or) abyss. And he opened the abussos (or) abyss pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.”

This period in view refers to the third of seven parallels in Revelation and specifically covers the period preceding the return of Christ. The locusts symbolically represent the demonic host that are currently imprisoned in the abyss. Revelation 20:1-3 similarly states, “And I saw an angel come down (or descend – Strong’s 2597) from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.” We must carefully note a few things here, which most commentators seem to overlook. Firstly, this “star” descended “from heaven unto the earth.” Secondly, having settled on “the earth” the “star” gained direct rule and authority over the abyss. Regardless of one’s theological position, we must accept that the abyss (however we understand it) is located on earth. Saying this, if the aforementioned is true then it would lead us to the definite assumption that the abyss was specifically referring to the invisible realm and therefore represent a spiritual state or condition for the fallen angels rather than an actual physical place. The whole symbolism surrounding the abyss seems to identify it with the abode of the kingdom of darkness and a place of distinct evil, albeit a place that still witnesses arrivals and departures for the demonic realm, symbolically represented by such imagery as “locusts” and “scorpions.”

I believe the scorpions in Revelation are the demonic spirits that work under the influence of Satan. The same symbolism is used by Christ in Luke 10:19, where He says, “Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”I don’t think anyone would suggest that this is talking about physically walking over wicked people, no. It is speaking about walking spiritually over spiritual beings that are appointed to oppose the Church.

It is worth noting, Revelation 8:10-11 uses similar language, saying, “there pipto (or) descended a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.”

Revelation 9:4-6 continues, “And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.”

The first thing we see is, whilst these devils are released from their place of restraint – the abyss – they are restricted on whom they can inflict harm. These devils are given scope to afflict the wicked, but significantly, have no power over the righteous (who have God’s seal in their forehead). The redeemed of God remain outside their area of injury, being under the seal of God and therefore under divine protection. They are “sealed with that holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1:13) “unto the day of redemption” (Ephesians 4:30). This is God’s eternal stamp of ownership. It is “only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads” that will be tormented. In fact they will be assaulted to such a degree at the end that that they will desire death rather than continue in their tormented state.

Verse 6 says, “in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.” It seems that the anguish of the mind is so intense that death seems to be the only way out. It is the only release from the torture. Nothing illustrates the character of the kingdom of darkness more than the torment devils subject humans to. It seems that these demons haunt men to such a state that they lose even the desire to live. This correlates with the release of Satan from his tight restraint in the Abyss and the manifestation of his “little season” (Revelation 20 just prior to the end.

Verse 7-10 continues, “And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.”

These locusts are depicted as an army on the march. They are an army on a demonic and assignment. Their instruction is to torment and sting the inhabitants of the world although they are unable to touch the righteous.

Moreover, Revelation 9:11 tells us that this demonic pit “had a king over them, which is the angel of the abussos (or) abyss, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

In piecing the apocalyptic jigsaw together we find that this dark spiritual dungeon currently has a king over it. This gives us insight into the fact that the abyss must be speaking of a kingdom. Moreover, that kingdom is imprisoned in its own darkness. The fact that there is a king currently ruling tells us that the abyss must contain a kingdom. The word kingdom means ‘king with a domain’. Its meaning includes the territory and the people over whom the King rules and exercises sovereign authority. The term also includes the legislation and laws that administrate that kingdom. The word employed in the New Testament for ‘kingdom’ is the Greek word basileia denoting ‘sovereignty, royal power, kingship and dominion’. A kingdom must therefore have (1) a king – a head, (2) a domain to rule over – subjects and territory, (3) a structure of administration – ethics, rules and laws which govern it.

We all know, there are only two spiritual realms in conflict on this earth – the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. Whilst these two kingdoms manifest through physical individuals they are invisible empires. The kingdom being described which “the destroyer” rules over is assuredly not the kingdom of God. The elect angels are never located in the abyss but rather in heavenly splendour. Therefore, we must be speaking of the dark restrained invisible spiritual realm of the devil’s kingdom.

Who is this king (the destroyer) that currently reigns over “the bottomless pit” or abyss? It is Satan. There is no doubt that Abaddon / Apollyon are referring to someone within the demonic realm. This begs an instant question, who is the king that rules over that realm? Satan. Strong’s Concordance corroborates this viewpoint describing Apollyon (623) as “a destroyer (i.e. Satan).” Moreover, when we examine the root Greek word apollumi (Strong’s 622) we find it means “to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively.” The word is variously translated destroy, die, lose, mar, perish in the King James Version. There can be little doubt that Apollyon is referring to the devil. Time after time in Scripture we see Satan being described in such a destructive way. The name and characteristics of this being seem to identify him with that great enemy of the Church – the devil.

PaulExcellent post, Paul. In support of your claim that Abaddon/Apollyon is another name for Satan, here are verses that show the devil, Satan, is king over the fallen angels.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: - Matthew 25:41

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. - Rev 12:9

The other fallen angels are called "his angels". Clearly, he rules over them. Do they have more than one king? There is no evidence to support that idea. Therefore, Abaddon/Apollyon is Satan and this means that Revelation 9 actually depicts the time when the bottomless pit is opened again and Satan is loosed.

wpm
Jul 1st 2008, 05:18 PM
Excellent post, Paul. In support of your claim that Abaddon/Apollyon is another name for Satan, here are verses that show the devil, Satan, is king over the fallen angels.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: - Matthew 25:41

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. - Rev 12:9

The other fallen angels are called "his angels". Clearly, he rules over them. Do they have more than one king? There is no evidence to support that idea. Therefore, Abaddon/Apollyon is Satan and this means that Revelation 9 actually depicts the time when the bottomless pit is opened again and Satan is loosed.

Amen! Jude supports the view of a current binding of the whole kingdom of darkness, in v 6, when he says,“the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting desmois (Strong’s 1199) (or) chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

2 Peter 2:4 closely correlates with Jude v6, saying, “God spared not the angels that sinned, but tartaroo (or) ‘cast them down to hell’, and delivered them seiraís (or) ‘into chains’ of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

This passage is an obvious mirror of Jude verse 6, describing the spiritual restrains that the whole demonic realm is currently subject to, up until the judgment. It is worth noting that this passage is the only place in Scripture where we find the Greek words tartaroo (Strong’s 5020) and seiraís (Strong’s 4577). The word tartaroo in the original does not refer to hell (Hades) but rather to the abyss. In fact, the Greek word tartaroo comes from tartaros which refers to the deepest part of the abyss. Moreover, the Greek word seiraís simply means bonds. This text powerfully confirms the Amillennial view that Satan’s demonic kingdom is already bound in the invisible spiritual realm of the abyss.

Paul

John146
Jul 1st 2008, 05:23 PM
In Rev. 19 the fowls are told to gather - not just eat everybody all over the earth. They are called to the place of the battle supper.Does the text ""the flesh of all men" (mankind) not mean what it says? Why change it to mean "the flesh of some men"?

Do you believe Revelation 19 coincides with 1 Thess 4:13-17 and 2 Thess 1:7-10? If so, tell me what mortal unbelievers are not included among those who "know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess 1:8)?

John146
Jul 1st 2008, 06:05 PM
Amen! Jude supports the view of a current binding of the whole kingdom of darkness, in v 6, when he says,“the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting desmois (Strong’s 1199) (or) chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

2 Peter 2:4 closely correlates with Jude v6, saying, “God spared not the angels that sinned, but tartaroo (or) ‘cast them down to hell’, and delivered them seiraís (or) ‘into chains’ of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

This passage is an obvious mirror of Jude verse 6, describing the spiritual restrains that the whole demonic realm is currently subject to, up until the judgment. It is worth noting that this passage is the only place in Scripture where we find the Greek words tartaroo (Strong’s 5020) and seiraís (Strong’s 4577). The word tartaroo in the original does not refer to hell (Hades) but rather to the abyss. In fact, the Greek word tartaroo comes from tartaros which refers to the deepest part of the abyss. Moreover, the Greek word seiraís simply means bonds. This text powerfully confirms the Amillennial view that Satan’s demonic kingdom is already bound in the invisible spiritual realm of the abyss.

PaulNo question. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that those passages don't depict a spiritual binding of the fallen angels. I also don't think anyone can reasonably argue that those same fallen angels, despite being reserved in chains of darkness, have been deceiving people ever since they were initially reserved in chains unto the day of judgment. So, why can't the same apply to Satan?

Clearly, being bound in spiritual chains of darkness does not cause spiritual beings to not be able to roam throughout the earth trying to deceive people. Therefore, being bound with a spiritual chain has nothing to do with being kept from being able to deceive at all but has to do with being restrained from deceiving as freely as they did before Christ came to destroy the works of the devil and spoil his goods and his house. They were restrained from any more keeping people in the Gentile nations from having a relationship with God by keeping the truth of the gospel away from them. Once the gospel began to be preached in the Gentile nations, Satan and his angels were powerless to stop it and powerless to keep the Gentiles from still "having no hope" and being "without Christ" and "without God in the world" (Eph 2:11-13).

Eric

wpm
Jul 1st 2008, 06:22 PM
No question. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that those passages don't depict a spiritual binding of the fallen angels. I also don't think anyone can reasonably argue that those same fallen angels, despite being reserved in chains of darkness, have been deceiving people ever since they were initially reserved in chains unto the day of judgment. So, why can't the same apply to Satan?

Clearly, being bound in spiritual chains of darkness does not cause spiritual beings to not be able to roam throughout the earth trying to deceive people. Therefore, being bound with a spiritual chain has nothing to do with being kept from being able to deceive at all but has to do with being restrained from deceiving as freely as they did before Christ came to destroy the works of the devil and spoil his goods and his house. They were restrained from any more keeping people in the Gentile nations from having a relationship with God by keeping the truth of the gospel away from them. Once the gospel began to be preached in the Gentile nations, Satan and his angels were powerless to stop it and powerless to keep the Gentiles from still "having no hope" and being "without Christ" and "without God in the world" (Eph 2:11-13).

Eric

A prisoner is locked up, however he can still move - albeit within very definite limited parameters.

Martin Luther writes,

"Why should you fear? Why should you be afraid? Do you not know that the prince of this world has been judged? He is no lord, no prince any more. You have a different, a stronger Lord, Christ, who has overcome and bound him. Therefore let the prince and god of this world look sour, bare his teeth, make a great noise, threaten, and act in an unmannerly way; he can do no more than a bad dog on a chain, which may bark, run here and there, and tear at the chain. But because it is tied and you avoid it, it cannot bite you. So the devil acts toward every Christian. Therefore everything depends on this that we do not feel secure but continue in the fear of God and in prayer; then the chained dog cannot harm us. But this chained dog may at least frighten him who would be secure and go ahead without caution, although he may not come close enough to be bitten" (taken from the Ewald Plass, What Luther Says, (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959), pp. 391-404).

Paul

moonglow
Jul 1st 2008, 06:44 PM
Amen! Jude supports the view of a current binding of the whole kingdom of darkness, in v 6, when he says,“the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting desmois (Strong’s 1199) (or) chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

2 Peter 2:4 closely correlates with Jude v6, saying, “God spared not the angels that sinned, but tartaroo (or) ‘cast them down to hell’, and delivered them seiraís (or) ‘into chains’ of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

This passage is an obvious mirror of Jude verse 6, describing the spiritual restrains that the whole demonic realm is currently subject to, up until the judgment. It is worth noting that this passage is the only place in Scripture where we find the Greek words tartaroo (Strong’s 5020) and seiraís (Strong’s 4577). The word tartaroo in the original does not refer to hell (Hades) but rather to the abyss. In fact, the Greek word tartaroo comes from tartaros which refers to the deepest part of the abyss. Moreover, the Greek word seiraís simply means bonds. This text powerfully confirms the Amillennial view that Satan’s demonic kingdom is already bound in the invisible spiritual realm of the abyss.

Paul

Oh thanks you for that! As you might or might not have noticed, I did a post on here titled something like..what happens after satan is released..the first post included the binding of satan is current..I posted that hoping to get like minded people to respond to what happens AFTER he is released...instead I was meant with strong objections to him even being bound now and the whole thread got off track. So this is good information on here..I have already referred people to your other thread on this topic because you explain it so much better then I ever could.

When I was a pre-tribber I was taught once satan was bound the earth become a place of total peace...no sin...nothing bad happened and so forth. Now many years later I cannot find one verse that says that will happen...why do people think if satan is bound where he cannot do anything at all..that we stop sinning? ALOT of people on here believe all sinning stops once he is bound...but the bible says we are sinners all by ourselves! Satan can only temp but cannot make us sin. So where do people get this idea we can't sin unless satan is out running loose?

I got so blasted for saying satan was bound...'how can you possible think that with the wars, and murder and rapes, and death and dying and all these terrible things going on in the world that satan is bound?' I don't see satan doing these things...I see people doing them! And yes I realize many are influenced by him...but I think way too many seem to give too much credit to the devil....we can be wicked and evil all by ourselves and I know this because the bible says so.



God bless

wpm
Jul 1st 2008, 07:02 PM
Oh thanks you for that! As you might or might not have noticed, I did a post on here titled something like..what happens after satan is released..the first post included the binding of satan is current..I posted that hoping to get like minded people to respond to what happens AFTER he is released...instead I was meant with strong objections to him even being bound now and the whole thread got off track. So this is good information on here..I have already referred people to your other thread on this topic because you explain it so much better then I ever could.

When I was a pre-tribber I was taught once satan was bound the earth become a place of total peace...no sin...nothing bad happened and so forth. Now many years later I cannot find one verse that says that will happen...why do people think if satan is bound where he cannot do anything at all..that we stop sinning? ALOT of people on here believe all sinning stops once he is bound...but the bible says we are sinners all by ourselves! Satan can only temp but cannot make us sin. So where do people get this idea we can't sin unless satan is out running loose?

I got so blasted for saying satan was bound...'how can you possible think that with the wars, and murder and rapes, and death and dying and all these terrible things going on in the world that satan is bound?' I don't see satan doing these things...I see people doing them! And yes I realize many are influenced by him...but I think way too many seem to give too much credit to the devil....we can be wicked and evil all by ourselves and I know this because the bible says so.



God bless

All the things that exist in the Amil millennium exist in the Premil millennium. They are both plagued by sin, death, hatred, decay and war. In fact, they both end with the wicked growing to such a degree that they are numbered as the sand of the sea.

The beautiful thing about the Amil new earth is that it is curse-free, sin-free, death-free, decay-free kingdom. The wicked are forbidden entry. It is a glorious eternal kingdom free of any rebellion.

Paul

markedward
Jul 1st 2008, 07:38 PM
"Now the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet" seems like a really lousy promise of "soon" didn't mean "soon." The Greek word for "soon" literally means "quickly" or "shortly." It is used elsewhere in the NT to refer to events that not only were to happen "soon" but were even in the process of happening.

Also:

Jesus said, "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

Paul said, "Now the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet."

Seems consistent to me in speaking of events that would happen in the early days rather than thousands of years later.

BibleProphecy
Jul 1st 2008, 09:16 PM
I believe that the stars of heaven that we see fall unto the earth (Re.6:13 below) at the Sixth SEAL (Re.6:12 below) are the Dragon (Re.12:3 below) and the third part of the stars of heaven (Re.12:4 below), his angels.


I believe that it is at the Sixth SEAL that Satan and his angels are cast INTO the earth (Re.12:9 below) to be locked into the bottomless pit until he and his angels are released at the Fifth TRUMPET (Re.9:1-2 below).


The beasts of Daniel, chapter 7, will ascend from the bottomless pit at the opening of the Fifth TRUMPET.



Re.6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the SIXTH SEAL, and, lo, there was a GREAT EARTHQUAKE; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood (Matt.24:29, Acts.2:20, Joel 2:31);


Re.6:13 And the stars of heaven (Re.12:4 below) fell unto the earth (Matt.24:29, Mk.13:25), even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Re.12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Re.12:4 And his tail drew THE THIRD PART of the stars of heaven (Re.6:13 above), and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


Re.12:9 And the GREAT DRAGON was cast out, that OLD SERPENT, called the DEVIL, and SATAN, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out INTO the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Re.9:1 And the fifth (trumpet) angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit .

Re.9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.



Patricia © Bible Prophecy on the Web
Author of the self-study aid, The Book of Revelation Explained © 1982

vinsight4u8
Jul 1st 2008, 09:41 PM
The trumpet time is not after the seals...it is only the trumpetless angels story placed in Rev. 8.

vinsight4u8
Jul 1st 2008, 09:47 PM
Warning to those in Egypt - get out as soon you can for you will not have any rain -

WHY??????????

Because if Satan is truly bound and we are in the millenium - then you should be keeping the feast of tabernacles.


More warnings!!
More?
Yes!
The marriage supper of the Lamb is over!
saints - you are too late to dine!
you are too late to get married -

You are too late, way too late to ever reign with Christ too as - only those of the marriage time will reign.

cwb
Jul 1st 2008, 09:55 PM
"Now the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet" seems like a really lousy promise of "soon" didn't mean "soon." The Greek word for "soon" literally means "quickly" or "shortly." It is used elsewhere in the NT to refer to events that not only were to happen "soon" but were even in the process of happening.

Also:

Jesus said, "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

Paul said, "Now the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet."

Seems consistent to me in speaking of events that would happen in the early days rather than thousands of years later.

"soon" from God's perspective and "soon" from your persective can mean something different. Since one day is as 1000 years to God, two thousand years or even three thousand years is "soon" from God's perspective.

cwb
Jul 1st 2008, 09:59 PM
Amen! Jude supports the view of a current binding of the whole kingdom of darkness, in v 6, when he says,“the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting desmois (Strong’s 1199) (or) chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

2 Peter 2:4 closely correlates with Jude v6, saying, “God spared not the angels that sinned, but tartaroo (or) ‘cast them down to hell’, and delivered them seiraís (or) ‘into chains’ of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

This passage is an obvious mirror of Jude verse 6, describing the spiritual restrains that the whole demonic realm is currently subject to, up until the judgment. It is worth noting that this passage is the only place in Scripture where we find the Greek words tartaroo (Strong’s 5020) and seiraís (Strong’s 4577). The word tartaroo in the original does not refer to hell (Hades) but rather to the abyss. In fact, the Greek word tartaroo comes from tartaros which refers to the deepest part of the abyss. Moreover, the Greek word seiraís simply means bonds. This text powerfully confirms the Amillennial view that Satan’s demonic kingdom is already bound in the invisible spiritual realm of the abyss.

Paul

It seems to me from reading Ephesians 6 that the demonic realm is something we still have to contend with today.

vinsight4u8
Jul 1st 2008, 10:01 PM
Jesus Christ must return from heaven with His armies of saints before Satan can be bound for the 1000 years.

The last martyr for Jesus Christ must have died before Satan can be bound for 1000 years.

wpm
Jul 1st 2008, 10:11 PM
It seems to me from reading Ephesians 6 that the demonic realm is something we still have to contend with today.

But since the cross the people of God has been given dominion over them. Satan's kingdom is not free to control/deceive the nations as he once did. Something significant has changed. This is all Rev 20 is showing us.

One thing that is to the fore of Christ’s earthly ministry and His subsequent death, burial and resurrection was His steadfast assault upon the kingdom of darkness and its consequential defeat. It was the Lord’s unswerving concern to destroy Satan’s power and dislodge his demonic powers. It was Jesus Himself who spoke of the necessity to "bind the strong man" (Satan) in order to plunder his house and rescue people from his ugly grip (Matthew 12:29).

The disciples experienced the power of the Gospel and the damaging impact it had on Satan when after returned from preaching the gospel in Luke 10:18 they rejoiced how the demons were made subject to them. Luke 10:17 records, “the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.” When the gospel advances in the world and men and women are delivered from the bondage of sin and Satan, the devil is defeated and bound in their lives. Christ said of this attack upon the kingdom of darkness, “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you” (Luke 10:18-19).

Satan has always been subject to the Sovereign mind of God. When the kingdom of God manifested before the Cross demons were curtailed, however, the legal act of binding the demonic world didn't occur until the Cross. As the disciples advanced in the delegated authority of Christ the kingdom of darkness was demolished wherever they went. Blindfolds that “the god of this world (Satan) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not” with were ripped off (2 Corinthians 4:4-6). The sick were healed; the demon-possessed were set free from the powers of darkness. Everywhere the Gospel went and was received saw Satan dislodged from his previous control. Before the Cross the Gentiles were blind and bound. Notwithstanding, that didn't mean they were inoperative (they had full and proper movement), but were spiritually bound. Now, these same chains that he placed on others have now been placed on Satan since the Cross. This limits his movement and curtails his plans. Satan's control was demolished everywhere the kingdom triumphed - in the case of individuals, nations and peoples.

In Luke 9:1, we learn of Christ, “he called his twelve disciples together, andgave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases."

The Church currently exists in heavenly authority procured for them through our Saviour’s life, death and resurrection. Christ defeated Satan and his minions at every turn, when fulfilling His heavenly assignment. It is therefore “through Christ” and “in Christ” and “by Christ” that the Church now stands in victory and exercises its authority. The evil spiritual giants that resist the Church are only removed by a people of faith employing its God-given power. The Church of Christ, as an offensive army on the march, is forcefully evicting Satan everywhere the kingdom of God is faithfully preached. Souls are released from the devil’s grip, lives are changed, bodies are healed and devils are bound. Sinners are immediately freed from the awful bondage of the kingdom of darkness into the glorious liberty of the kingdom of God. Colossians 1:13 tells us that God has “delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.”

With the supernatural help of the Holy Spirit and the powerful weapon of the preaching of the Word of God, demonic strongholds are exposed and disarmed and Satan is unseated in the lives of countless millions throughout the nations.

Revelation 12:11 tells us that “they (the Church) overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony.” Satan can be overcome in this life.

Satan is curtailed when the Church operates in and under the anointing and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ’s life, death and resurrection have opened the door and bust the devil aside.

Paul

markedward
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:46 AM
"soon" from God's perspective and "soon" from your persective can mean something different. Since one day is as 1000 years to God, two thousand years or even three thousand years is "soon" from God's perspective.A. What's the point of God using human terminology if He doesn't use the human definitions? God speaks to us using words we understand. Otherwise, there's no point in Him saying "soon" if He's arbitrarily using a definiton other than "soon" as we understand it.

B. Since you're turning the "one day is as a thousand years" into a rule, does that mean the Thousand Years of Revelation 20 is only a day long?

C. Daniel was told to seal up his prophecies. John was told to not seal up his. If there was only five-hundred to six-hundred years in difference between Daniel and John, that means only half of a "day" (in "God's time") passed. If two-thousand years (i.e. "two days") is "soon" in God's time, why is two-thousand five-hundred years (i.e. "two and a half days") not "soon"?

D. Even if you try to turn 2 Peter into a rule, why is it that the same chapter says "in the last days there will be scoffers," which Jude goes on to quote and says that such people were already among his contemporaries?

E. Even if you try to turn 2 Peter into a rule, that does not mean Paul, writing to the Romans, was using this rule. Paul not once mentions such a rule, nor implies his use of it, in which case, we have absolutely no reason to assume that Paul's use of the word "soon" means anything other than it's ordinary definition. Especially since 2 Peter is considered to have been written at a later date than Romans; meaning, if Paul wrote to the Romans long before 2 Peter was written, and Paul never mentioned such a rule, then why would the Romans arbitrarily interpret the word "soon" as anything other than "soon"?

quiet dove
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:56 AM
It seems to me from reading Ephesians 6 that the demonic realm is something we still have to contend with today.

I would agree. I see it, as far as what was accomplished on the Cross as related here is all those who come to Christ are freed from Satan, not Satan having been bound. Seems to me looking around at what passes now for Christianity in many places, it is very obvious he is doing quite a job deceiving. He is quite good and very capable.
:2cents:

wpm
Jul 2nd 2008, 04:27 AM
I would agree. I see it, as far as what was accomplished on the Cross as related here is all those who come to Christ are freed from Satan, not Satan having been bound. Seems to me looking around at what passes now for Christianity in many places, it is very obvious he is doing quite a job deceiving. He is quite good and very capable.
:2cents:

Premils place a whole new theology into one singular passage located in a highly symbolic setting that says nothing pertaining to what they insinuate. Moreover, they have absolutely no corroboration for their theory in other Scripture. They miss the fact that the undeceiving of the ethnos is simply talking about the enlightenment of the Gentiles. This has been well under way for near 2,000 years.

Paul

cwb
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:42 AM
A. What's the point of God using human terminology if He doesn't use the human definitions? God speaks to us using words we understand. Otherwise, there's no point in Him saying "soon" if He's arbitrarily using a definiton other than "soon" as we understand it.

B. Since you're turning the "one day is as a thousand years" into a rule, does that mean the Thousand Years of Revelation 20 is only a day long?

C. Daniel was told to seal up his prophecies. John was told to not seal up his. If there was only five-hundred to six-hundred years in difference between Daniel and John, that means only half of a "day" (in "God's time") passed. If two-thousand years (i.e. "two days") is "soon" in God's time, why is two-thousand five-hundred years (i.e. "two and a half days") not "soon"?

D. Even if you try to turn 2 Peter into a rule, why is it that the same chapter says "in the last days there will be scoffers," which Jude goes on to quote and says that such people were already among his contemporaries?

E. Even if you try to turn 2 Peter into a rule, that does not mean Paul, writing to the Romans, was using this rule. Paul not once mentions such a rule, nor implies his use of it, in which case, we have absolutely no reason to assume that Paul's use of the word "soon" means anything other than it's ordinary definition. Especially since 2 Peter is considered to have been written at a later date than Romans; meaning, if Paul wrote to the Romans long before 2 Peter was written, and Paul never mentioned such a rule, then why would the Romans arbitrarily interpret the word "soon" as anything other than "soon"?

In Ephesians 6:11-12 the apostle Paul makes it abundantly clear that we are still at war with the devil:



Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].


Are you saying these verses in Ephesians are no longer valid?

cwb
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:53 AM
I would agree. I see it, as far as what was accomplished on the Cross as related here is all those who come to Christ are freed from Satan, not Satan having been bound. Seems to me looking around at what passes now for Christianity in many places, it is very obvious he is doing quite a job deceiving. He is quite good and very capable.
:2cents:

I think that people being ignorant of the enemy and what he is still able to do makes them more vulnerable to being decieved. I am convinced we are still at war with the devil.

cwb
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:56 AM
But since the cross the people of God has been given dominion over them. Satan's kingdom is not free to control/deceive the nations as he once did. Something significant has changed. This is all Rev 20 is showing us.

One thing that is to the fore of Christ’s earthly ministry and His subsequent death, burial and resurrection was His steadfast assault upon the kingdom of darkness and its consequential defeat. It was the Lord’s unswerving concern to destroy Satan’s power and dislodge his demonic powers. It was Jesus Himself who spoke of the necessity to "bind the strong man" (Satan) in order to plunder his house and rescue people from his ugly grip (Matthew 12:29).

The disciples experienced the power of the Gospel and the damaging impact it had on Satan when after returned from preaching the gospel in Luke 10:18 they rejoiced how the demons were made subject to them. Luke 10:17 records, “the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.” When the gospel advances in the world and men and women are delivered from the bondage of sin and Satan, the devil is defeated and bound in their lives. Christ said of this attack upon the kingdom of darkness, “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you” (Luke 10:18-19).

Satan has always been subject to the Sovereign mind of God. When the kingdom of God manifested before the Cross demons were curtailed, however, the legal act of binding the demonic world didn't occur until the Cross. As the disciples advanced in the delegated authority of Christ the kingdom of darkness was demolished wherever they went. Blindfolds that “the god of this world (Satan) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not” with were ripped off (2 Corinthians 4:4-6). The sick were healed; the demon-possessed were set free from the powers of darkness. Everywhere the Gospel went and was received saw Satan dislodged from his previous control. Before the Cross the Gentiles were blind and bound. Notwithstanding, that didn't mean they were inoperative (they had full and proper movement), but were spiritually bound. Now, these same chains that he placed on others have now been placed on Satan since the Cross. This limits his movement and curtails his plans. Satan's control was demolished everywhere the kingdom triumphed - in the case of individuals, nations and peoples.

In Luke 9:1, we learn of Christ, “he called his twelve disciples together, andgave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases."

The Church currently exists in heavenly authority procured for them through our Saviour’s life, death and resurrection. Christ defeated Satan and his minions at every turn, when fulfilling His heavenly assignment. It is therefore “through Christ” and “in Christ” and “by Christ” that the Church now stands in victory and exercises its authority. The evil spiritual giants that resist the Church are only removed by a people of faith employing its God-given power. The Church of Christ, as an offensive army on the march, is forcefully evicting Satan everywhere the kingdom of God is faithfully preached. Souls are released from the devil’s grip, lives are changed, bodies are healed and devils are bound. Sinners are immediately freed from the awful bondage of the kingdom of darkness into the glorious liberty of the kingdom of God. Colossians 1:13 tells us that God has “delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.”

With the supernatural help of the Holy Spirit and the powerful weapon of the preaching of the Word of God, demonic strongholds are exposed and disarmed and Satan is unseated in the lives of countless millions throughout the nations.

Revelation 12:11 tells us that “they (the Church) overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony.” Satan can be overcome in this life.

Satan is curtailed when the Church operates in and under the anointing and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ’s life, death and resurrection have opened the door and bust the devil aside.

Paul

Ephesians 6 (and plenty of other verses) tell me we still have an enemy who we are at war with even after the cross.



Satan is curtailed when the Church operates in and under the anointing and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ’s life, death and resurrection have opened the door and bust the devil aside.



I agree with you that Satan is curtailed when the Church operates in the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. However it is not an automatic and already done. The Church still has to execute that power. In areas where the Church and it members do not operate the power and authority it has been given, the enemy still has the ability to destroy lives and decieve people and nations.

Clifton
Jul 2nd 2008, 01:36 PM
I think that people being ignorant of the enemy and what he is still able to do makes them more vulnerable to being decieved. I am convinced we are still at war with the devil.

It's called getting and staying drunk (been there, done that:blush:) - okay, I am just using a metaphor here... ;)
Be sober, watch, because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
1 Peter 5:8 The Scriptures 1998+
I guess one might put a stretch on the "walks" part that he has a big cell, but I don't think the phrase "seeking someone to devour" means he has "prison cell mates" to devour either. So yep, it is like you said, we are still at war with him.

Blessings.

wpm
Jul 2nd 2008, 01:38 PM
Ephesians 6 (and plenty of other verses) tell me we still have an enemy who we are at war with even after the cross.



I agree with you that Satan is curtailed when the Church operates in the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. However it is not an automatic and already done. The Church still has to execute that power. In areas where the Church and it members do not operate the power and authority it has been given, the enemy still has the ability to destroy lives and decieve people and nations.

Amil agrees. It simply believe Christ is the first resurrection, we that have are part in His first resurrection and are delivered from eternal punishment (the second death). They believe the cross defeated the devil, opened up the Gospel to the Gentiles, allowing the deception that once veiled them to be lifted. They believe Satan has been placed in spiritual chains since Calvary, curtailing his once global control of the nations. Wherever the Church advances he is unseated or dethroned. The Gentiles have received the glorious light of the Gospel of Christ for near 2,000 yrs. The deception is now lifted.

Paul

ShirleyFord
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:00 PM
Ephesians 6 (and plenty of other verses) tell me we still have an enemy who we are at war with even after the cross.



I agree with you that Satan is curtailed when the Church operates in the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. However it is not an automatic and already done. The Church still has to execute that power. In areas where the Church and it members do not operate the power and authority it has been given, the enemy still has the ability to destroy lives and decieve people and nations.

Hi CWB,

The Apostle Paul helped me to understand exactly what the devil's binding is in the 3 chapters of his 2nd letter to the Church at Thessalonica. But until I read the entire 3 Chapters of 2 Thessalonians together first - and then went back and read each word beginning in Chapter 1 and actually seeing each word, letting my eyes rest on and really looking at each of the letters of each word that Paul had written by the power and inspiration of God - I was just as confused as ever as to exactly what the binding of the devil is by our precious Lord.

And even still in my confusion I could see and understand by what Paul had clearly written in 2 Thessalonians 2:4-6 that it was the restraiining power of our Lord Jesus Christ that bound him and it would be by that exact same person and power that the devil would be loosed. And that Jesus would destroy him by His same power that He had bound him with and then again loosed him with at His Coming again.

I believe that when we read 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, we would all agree that it is Jesus who binds the devil and it is Jesus who looses him. And also that it is Jesus who destroys him regardless of our different endtime views.

But I learned that my confusion had to do with the fact that I divided and separtated 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9 from from Chapter 1 and verse 1 of Chapter 2, lifting that one block verses out of the letter and categorising it: A Future Endtime Prophecy of The Second Coming of Christ, as I had been taught to do for 30 years. And then file that entire block of Paul's letter to the Church at Thessalonica in a carefully organized categorised and labeled filing cabinet: Biblical Topics under the sub-topic: The Second Coming of Christ.

I had learned to categorize the Bible into blocks that way from my home Southern Baptist Church by the selected hymns by topics we sang on Sunday mornings that my pastor selected to fit his Sunday morning sermons by the same topics.

The one hour of Sunday Morning Preaching then was divided into several different categorized blocks, partitioning off the 60 minutes hour into 4 quarter-hour blocks of 15 minutes each. And until I was 30 years old, I was deceived into believing that the pastor preached the Sunday Morning sermon the entire 60 minutes of the 1 hour Sunday Morning Service.

After all, we had 2 services on Sunday morning when I was growing up, the only 2 in fact that we had all week: Sunday Morning Sunday School - 10:00 AM, Sunday Morning Preaching - 11:00 AM. That is what was written in bold black huge letters on that big sign outside my church, Bear Swamp Baptist Church. Since Bear Swamp was located way out in the country - 2 miles from the nearest city of Lake View (population-600) and the majority of church members were farmers scattered out across a radius 10 mi. area of farm land within the community of Oven Bottom - and since the only source of income for the farmers back then was only what their farm produced, the pastor and deacons gave 2 options for us to go to Church on Sunday Mornings. If we couldn't make the first service then we would shoot for the second service.

But my parents didn't seem to think that their household had fully kept the sabbath unless we went to each of the 2 different services and stayed there from 9:00 AM until the pastor had shaken the last hand on the porch outside of the sanctuary in the front of Bear Swamp. But after I was married, my Sunday School teacher in a a big city uptown First Baptist Church informed her class, "The Sunday Morning Worship Service is not all preaching. I've never heard a preacher yet preach more than 15 minutes at one time on a Sunday morning including the reading of the text."

CWB, the problem I see you having with the binding of the devil is the same problem I had when I actually heard it taught. I began with the devil in 2 Thess. 2 but began with Jesus in Revelation 20:1-3. I ended with Jesus in 2 Thess. 2 but ended with the devil in Rev. 20:3.

So I understand the struggle. I've been there. Trying to categorize 2 Thess.2 and Revelation 20:1-7 into 2 by The First Coming of Christ and The Second Coming of Christ. And then taking the rest of the verses and choosing which one to file each one under making sure to use other Scriptures that fit and fitting them under the 2 categories First Coming of Christ and Second Coming of Christ. Oh I assured myself that I allowed the Holy Spirit of God to lead me and guide me as to what verses to place where. And now I know that utimately He was the One. But the methods I used for understanding 2 Thess. 2 came from man and not God.

When I got frustrated enough and dissatisfied enough with the way I had gone about reaching the conclusions I had, I told the Lord, I will not give up. I will stay right here in 2 Thess. until you give me more understanding from Scripture how I can know for sure without any doubt about the conclusions I've reached. If I'm wrong Lord, then correct me and show me and I will quickly repent. If I'm right then I will know that you have lead me to the conclusions I've reached.

John146
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:35 PM
Ephesians 6 (and plenty of other verses) tell me we still have an enemy who we are at war with even after the cross.Are you under the impression that amils believe that Satan being bound means he can't deceive anyone anywhere at all, which would mean we believe he hasn't been deceiving anyone the last 2,000 years or so? If so, that is incorrect. It is a premil belief that Satan can't deceive at all during the thousand years, not amil.

Amil says that the deceiving of the nations has to do with Satan's ability to keep the Gentile nations as a whole in spiritual darkness, which he was able to do before Christ came, but not after. After Christ came, this was the result:

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. - Eph 2:11-13

The Greek word for Gentiles in verse 11 is "ethnos". That is the same word used for "the nations" in Revelation 20. What does the passage above tell us about the condition of the "ethnos" before Christ came to shed His blood for the sins of the world? They were without Christ and God in the world. They had no hope. They were aliens and strangers to the household of God. But what happened when Christ came? Those were far off and kept in spiritual darkness and deceived by Satan were made near by the blood of Christ. They became "fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God" (Eph 2:19). Satan was made powerless to stop this from happening by Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.- Hebrews 2:14-15

Mograce2U
Jul 2nd 2008, 08:28 PM
cwb,
It is not in this life only that we have hope in Christ. Those saints who loved their lives not unto death and overcame the devil by the word of their testimony is because they had eternal life in their possession. Satan can only kill the body - the earthly life we all lose, is not the substance of the Life these saints had.

Merton
Jul 3rd 2008, 03:55 AM
There have been no scriptural refutations of the OP, only opinions of scriptures which are mostly misinterpretations of scripture.


Why Satan is not bound, and in the pit, and sealed over, until Christ returns.

Because--


The context of the verse.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The verse is placed at the time after the Beast and False prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire, and the description of satan destiny at that time naturally follows because it was out of the mouth of Satan, the Beast, and the False prophet that the nations were deceived into make war against Christ—

Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Then we have the further statement concerning more warring against Christ again after the thousand years, with satans release from his prison---

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

2.

The description in the verse itself—

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The action of the binding of satan is by an angel coming down from Heaven.

Never is Christ at the cross described as an angel, or an angel from Heaven, and neither is the Holy Spirit coming down from Heaven on the day of Pentecost described as an angel, or of the action of Rev20 in Acts ch 2.
(there is an angel seen by John in Rev.10 which symbolizes Christ’s return but never is He symbolized by one at the first advent Heb.ch 1.)

Christ Himself does have a particular angel however, in fact two, among legions of others, but this angel in Rev.20:1 has a key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand, binds satan, casts satan in the bottomless pit, shuts him up there, and sets a seal, probably on the door.

The key speaks of a lock. Have you ever known God to lock something with a key which does not work perfectly? Of course not.

One has said that satan is a spirit and not physical. Well the chain is not physical either, it is a symbol used to show that the chain binding is of the strongest kind, which no one, be it spirit or man can break and escape from.

Any door that Christ opens is not closed by anyone else either—Rev.3:8




We can now go back to the trumpets and further to discover what this bottomless pit is—

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

This has direct reference to the subject of—


Eze 31:14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.

Eze 32:25 They have set her a bed in the midst of the slain with all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword: though their terror was caused in the land of the living, yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit: he is put in the midst of them that be slain.

Rev. 9:1 does not indicate that the dead will return to life but only that living men on earth will return to the spirit (smoke) and ways of them who terrorized mankind in the past, and much of it was and will be for the punishing of sinners among them who ought to have known better. 5th trumpet.

However if a key is not given to this one who opens the bottomless pit in Rev.9 then it could not be opened up, and neither can be the bottomless pit of Rev.20.

The dead are not now running around on the earth are they? Of course not, and neither would satan be free to do so, during his time in the pit, where all those nations of the past lay dead, out of the sight of the living, silent, and inactive.

Satan is not only bound and in the pit, but he is sealed there when that angel is sent from Heaven to do it, when the time comes that the Spirit of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters do the sea during the thousand years.

Is God’s seal of the saints also insecure and having only a general loose meaning?

You know this is very serious when men suggest that God's sealing of satan in the pit by an angel means nothing restricting of his freedom to do as he has always done in deceiving mankind.

Paul says that satan is going about like a roaring lion and I see nothing has changed since Adam.—

1Pe 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
1Pe 5:9 Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

Nations are still being deceived since the Cross and Pentecost.

Nations are still learning war since the Cross and Pentecost.

It was some time after the Cross and Pentecost that Paul said—

Rom 16:20 Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your* feet with quickness. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you*.


Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


Act 26:18 to open their eyes [in order] to turn [them] back from darkness to light and [from] the authority of Satan to God, [in order for] them to receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among the ones having been sanctified by faith in Me.'


Merton.

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 3rd 2008, 04:28 AM
For those who think Satan is bound now and has very little operation on this planet.. I want to ask you one question.....

Who did Jesus the Christ, in His authority , drive out of me, over 14 years ago when He delivered and saved me? It certainly wasn't some meek and mild mannered good spirit.. No, I know who He drove out of me and set me free from.. It was many devils and unclean spirits..... The testimony Jesus the Christ has given me... the testimony of His saving and delivering power and Grace and Mercy......... refutes those claims that he is bound and inactive today... You will not overthrow my faith and my testimony ...
That will not happen... We are still at war with wicked principlaties and powers... and the god of this world...

My heart's Desire
Jul 3rd 2008, 05:55 AM
Here is a prelimarnary reason I don't think satan is bound.
In Matt.4:8 during Jesus temptation.
Again, the devil took Him to a very high moutain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;
9. And said to Him, All thses things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me,'
Did satan have the right to offer the kingdoms to Jesus? I'll let you answer that. Jesus said only that You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.
Go to Genesis 1:28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.
Man was told to rule over every thing on the earth, then what happens?
Chapter 3 the fall of man and the curse upon the earth after the serpent decieved Eve.
In Job, we all know that satan can never do anything beyond what God allows him to. Would you agree?
Now, in Matt. the kingdoms are offered by satan to Christ.
2 Corinthians 4:4
Who is the god of this world? Verse 4.
in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God
Let's go to Revelation.
In Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."
So, at the 7th trumpet, does the kingdoms of the world become the kingdom of Christ before or after satan is bound?

Mograce2U
Jul 3rd 2008, 02:00 PM
There is a power at work in the world today against which Satan has no defense and cannot overcome. It is the power of the Holy Spirit - the word of God - which resides in the hearts of the people of God. A power released thru the faith filled prayers of the saints which the Lord hears, mediates and answers. We pray for those in authority that we might live in peace in this world. Jesus cast out demons by the word of God and healed men by the same word and continues this work thru His saints.

The power the devil has is only for the things that concern men - related to their sin. He has no power against the goodness of God which overcomes evil. Nor against the truth which overturns his lies. Nor can he take away your joy and your peace given to you by the Lord. He can still kill the body, but we continue to live in the presence of the Lord for ever.

So as you look at the fire power which the devil displays in the earth, don't be fooled by lying signs and wonders which are the equivalent of so much smoke and mirrors. For he is a dragon that now can only blow smoke!

Clifton
Jul 3rd 2008, 03:07 PM
Here is a prelimarnary reason I don't think satan is bound.

a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and he threw him into the pit of the deep, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should lead the nations no more astray until the thousand years were ended. And after that he has to be released for a little while.



Great points. He has always had "bindings" since his rebellion - But being chained into the prison pit, which is "shut up" with a "seal" on it is a much greater restraint - a confinement. When that happens there will be a whole lot of changes - like a clock going backwards to Eden. This will be the Messianic Era (commonly called "Millennium"). As to the things that will be then, (i.e. "THUS SAITH THE ALMIGHTY" things) has never yet been where Jerusalem is, much less globally or universal.

Blessings.

ShirleyFord
Jul 3rd 2008, 03:10 PM
So as you look at the fire power which the devil displays in the earth, don't be fooled by lying signs and wonders which are the equivalent of so much smoke and mirrors. For he is a dragon that now can only blow smoke!

Ain't that the gospel truth!

Peter would agree. He presents the devil as "a roaring lion", a big bully who sound the part but his roar is all he has. Jesus who has all power in heaven and in earth (after all He is God, the Son of God, the Messiah, Deliver from the chains of Satan's binding). So all the devil can do now is to roar and scare God's creation. That is why the devil has to seek out who don't know the victory at Calvary that Jesus Christ accomplished or that He proved that the devil is no match for Him in power or those who believe that the devil has more power than Jesus does now and Jesus will not receive full power and authority over the devil until Jesus finally agrees to give Israel their restored kingdom if they will only confess that He is their Promised Messiah.

1 Pet 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Notice Peter says that those who aren't deceived by the devil's fierce roar are those who are sober and vigilant, watching him with eyes wide open and ears alert, they see him seeking, they hear his roar. But they aren't impressed in the least. They don't run and hide and take cover. They know that their Lion of Judah has been given all power in heaven and in earth.

He said so to His disciples after his resurrection from physical death from a physcal grave , His very last Word's He spoke to them while on earth, as He ascended back into Heaven where He came from and put on flesh.

They know as the lion, he only seeks as his prey those that will be easy for him to run down, catch and eat.

From what I have researched through the years on lions, they are actually very lazy. So the least amount of work it takes to catch his prey, that is the one that the lion seeks out to devour.

David Taylor
Jul 3rd 2008, 08:02 PM
For those who think Satan is bound now and has very little operation on this planet.. I want to ask you one question.....
Who did Jesus the Christ, in His authority , drive out of me, over 14 years ago when He delivered and saved me?

And it is precisely because Jesus bound satan from deceiving the Gentles, that you a Gentile, were able to to be delivered and hear and accept the Gospel and be saved.

Unlike 99.99% of our Gentile brothers who were lost in darkness prior to Christ binding Satan from deceiving them back in B.C. times.

The world is by no means anywhere near perfect now, and wont be until Christ returns and eliminates sin, but-- at least millions if not billions of Gentiles like you and I have come out of the great darkness and into the light, since Jesus bound satan from deceiving the Gentles.

My heart's Desire
Jul 4th 2008, 03:53 AM
I'm not sure what I'm arguing for or against, but I believe that Satan has been defeated at the Cross but he still has free reign to try to keep blind all who will not believe in Christ. I say it that way because if they are not in Christ then they are on his side.
As believers we have spiritual weapons with which to fight and protect us. They are weapons which include all of what Christ gave us from His death, burial and resurrection.
Either way, Satan will not be totally out of the way until he is shut into the Lake of Fire for eternity. That's why we know he was defeated at the Cross because at the end of the Book it becomes a real reality.

ross3421
Jul 4th 2008, 08:12 AM
And it is precisely because Jesus bound satan from deceiving the Gentles, that you a Gentile, were able to to be delivered and hear and accept the Gospel and be saved.


Satan still deceives gentiles today. To say he does not is a deception in it's self. 90% unsaved, 10% saved? Looks like deception is working.

Firstfruits
Jul 4th 2008, 11:08 AM
And it is precisely because Jesus bound satan from deceiving the Gentles, that you a Gentile, were able to to be delivered and hear and accept the Gospel and be saved.

Unlike 99.99% of our Gentile brothers who were lost in darkness prior to Christ binding Satan from deceiving them back in B.C. times.

The world is by no means anywhere near perfect now, and wont be until Christ returns and eliminates sin, but-- at least millions if not billions of Gentiles like you and I have come out of the great darkness and into the light, since Jesus bound satan from deceiving the Gentles.


According to what is written Satan will not be able to deceive the nations until the millennium is finished.

Rev 20:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If Satan is bound at this time, then by whom are the nations being deceived today?

Firstfruits

Mograce2U
Jul 4th 2008, 03:13 PM
If Satan is bound at this time, then by whom are the nations being deceived today?It seems he had buddies - those 1/3 of the angels that were cast down with him - where are we told what they are up to? Jesus rules over all principalities and powers, in heaven and in earth. It would seem that while Satan is bound their only leader is Christ and they do His bidding when it comes to how the Lord deals with wicked men. Which is just my opinion!

Does the Lord send an holy angel to be a lying spirit?

(1 Ki 22:22-23 KJV) And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. {23} Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

David Taylor
Jul 4th 2008, 03:26 PM
If Satan is bound at this time, then by whom are the nations being deceived today?

Firstfruits

Christ binding Satan made possible for the light to shine unto the Gentiles and them the opportunity to come out from under that darkness -- unlike the Gentiles were never able to do enmass prior to Calvary.

Since then, billions of Gentiles have defeated Satan, and accepted Christ for the first time in Earth history, showing Satan is bound from deceiving the Gentiles from total rejection as in B.C. times.

The reason many Gentiles remain in sin, is not because Satan is blinding most Gentiles like he did in BC-times, but because men themselves chose darkness over light.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections

Sin overcomes many Gentiles, now, by their choice to reject God, Not Satan blinding and controlling them.

Firstfruits
Jul 4th 2008, 07:06 PM
Christ binding Satan made possible for the light to shine unto the Gentiles and them the opportunity to come out from under that darkness -- unlike the Gentiles were never able to do enmass prior to Calvary.

Since then, billions of Gentiles have defeated Satan, and accepted Christ for the first time in Earth history, showing Satan is bound from deceiving the Gentiles from total rejection as in B.C. times.

The reason many Gentiles remain in sin, is not because Satan is blinding most Gentiles like he did in BC-times, but because men themselves chose darkness over light.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections

Sin overcomes many Gentiles, now, by their choice to reject God, Not Satan blinding and controlling them.

It is written that the people on the earth are deceived by the miracles that the beast and the false prophet perform by the power they receive from Satan, so if Satan has been bound then the beast and the false prophet must have been here to use the power given to them before Satan is bound. So here's my question, Has all that is written is Revlation 13, etc, been fulfilled?

Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 20:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Without the beast and the false prophet the earth will not be deceived as it is written.

Firstfruits

cwb
Jul 5th 2008, 04:36 AM
Hi CWB,

The Apostle Paul helped me to understand exactly what the devil's binding is in the 3 chapters of his 2nd letter to the Church at Thessalonica. But until I read the entire 3 Chapters of 2 Thessalonians together first - and then went back and read each word beginning in Chapter 1 and actually seeing each word, letting my eyes rest on and really looking at each of the letters of each word that Paul had written by the power and inspiration of God - I was just as confused as ever as to exactly what the binding of the devil is by our precious Lord.

And even still in my confusion I could see and understand by what Paul had clearly written in 2 Thessalonians 2:4-6 that it was the restraiining power of our Lord Jesus Christ that bound him and it would be by that exact same person and power that the devil would be loosed. And that Jesus would destroy him by His same power that He had bound him with and then again loosed him with at His Coming again.

I believe that when we read 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, we would all agree that it is Jesus who binds the devil and it is Jesus who looses him. And also that it is Jesus who destroys him regardless of our different endtime views.

But I learned that my confusion had to do with the fact that I divided and separtated 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9 from from Chapter 1 and verse 1 of Chapter 2, lifting that one block verses out of the letter and categorising it: A Future Endtime Prophecy of The Second Coming of Christ, as I had been taught to do for 30 years. And then file that entire block of Paul's letter to the Church at Thessalonica in a carefully organized categorised and labeled filing cabinet: Biblical Topics under the sub-topic: The Second Coming of Christ.

I had learned to categorize the Bible into blocks that way from my home Southern Baptist Church by the selected hymns by topics we sang on Sunday mornings that my pastor selected to fit his Sunday morning sermons by the same topics.

The one hour of Sunday Morning Preaching then was divided into several different categorized blocks, partitioning off the 60 minutes hour into 4 quarter-hour blocks of 15 minutes each. And until I was 30 years old, I was deceived into believing that the pastor preached the Sunday Morning sermon the entire 60 minutes of the 1 hour Sunday Morning Service.

After all, we had 2 services on Sunday morning when I was growing up, the only 2 in fact that we had all week: Sunday Morning Sunday School - 10:00 AM, Sunday Morning Preaching - 11:00 AM. That is what was written in bold black huge letters on that big sign outside my church, Bear Swamp Baptist Church. Since Bear Swamp was located way out in the country - 2 miles from the nearest city of Lake View (population-600) and the majority of church members were farmers scattered out across a radius 10 mi. area of farm land within the community of Oven Bottom - and since the only source of income for the farmers back then was only what their farm produced, the pastor and deacons gave 2 options for us to go to Church on Sunday Mornings. If we couldn't make the first service then we would shoot for the second service.

But my parents didn't seem to think that their household had fully kept the sabbath unless we went to each of the 2 different services and stayed there from 9:00 AM until the pastor had shaken the last hand on the porch outside of the sanctuary in the front of Bear Swamp. But after I was married, my Sunday School teacher in a a big city uptown First Baptist Church informed her class, "The Sunday Morning Worship Service is not all preaching. I've never heard a preacher yet preach more than 15 minutes at one time on a Sunday morning including the reading of the text."

CWB, the problem I see you having with the binding of the devil is the same problem I had when I actually heard it taught. I began with the devil in 2 Thess. 2 but began with Jesus in Revelation 20:1-3. I ended with Jesus in 2 Thess. 2 but ended with the devil in Rev. 20:3.

So I understand the struggle. I've been there. Trying to categorize 2 Thess.2 and Revelation 20:1-7 into 2 by The First Coming of Christ and The Second Coming of Christ. And then taking the rest of the verses and choosing which one to file each one under making sure to use other Scriptures that fit and fitting them under the 2 categories First Coming of Christ and Second Coming of Christ. Oh I assured myself that I allowed the Holy Spirit of God to lead me and guide me as to what verses to place where. And now I know that utimately He was the One. But the methods I used for understanding 2 Thess. 2 came from man and not God.

When I got frustrated enough and dissatisfied enough with the way I had gone about reaching the conclusions I had, I told the Lord, I will not give up. I will stay right here in 2 Thess. until you give me more understanding from Scripture how I can know for sure without any doubt about the conclusions I've reached. If I'm wrong Lord, then correct me and show me and I will quickly repent. If I'm right then I will know that you have lead me to the conclusions I've reached.


In II Thess 2, the devil is restrained from bringing his man of sin to reign. The devil is not restrained from working. In fact those verses in II Thess 2 show that the enemy has been working since the first century and is still at work today. The devil is still the god of this prsesent evil world and his purpose is still to steal, kill and destroy.

wpm
Jul 5th 2008, 04:55 AM
People are fleeing out of the place that will be punished - if you want to compare it to the days of Sodom.
God did not go all over the earth slaying people.
It was Lot's wife that looked back at the place to be destroyed.

Where does he identify the fate of the earth sat His return to the earth in Lot's day? No where. It is the fate of Sodom that He identifies with His return. It will be obliterated by fire. You should read 2 Peter 3. The destruction will be total.

Paul

wpm
Jul 5th 2008, 05:01 AM
In II Thess 2, the devil is restrained from bringing his man of sin to reign. The devil is not restrained from working. In fact those verses in II Thess 2 show that the enemy has been working since the first century and is still at work today. The devil is still the god of this prsesent evil world and his purpose is still to steal, kill and destroy.

His release should be identified with Satan's release to deceive the nations prior to the Lord's return.

Paul

Merton
Jul 5th 2008, 10:58 AM
Where does he identify the fate of the earth sat His return to the earth in Lot's day? No where. It is the fate of Sodom that He identifies with His return. It will be obliterated by fire. You should read 2 Peter 3. The destruction will be total.

Paul


Only Sodomony cities were totally destroyed in Lots day and the same occurs at the second coming of Christ.

Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth will weep for her, and will wail over her, those having fornicated and having luxuriated with her, when they see the smoke of her burning;
Rev 18:10 standing from afar because of the fear of her torment, saying, Woe! Woe to the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment came.

In Noah's day, all who were in the ark survived the flood and repopulated the earth.




Zec 2:4 and said to him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem will dwell like unwalled villages, for the multitude of men and livestock in her midst.
Zec 2:5 And I will be to her a wall of fire all around, and I will be for glory in her midst, declares Jehovah.
Zec 2:6 Ho! Ho! Flee then from the land of the north, says Jehovah. For I have scattered you as the four winds of the heavens, declares Jehovah.
Zec 2:7 Ho, O Zion! Escape, you who live with the daughter of Babylon.
Zec 2:8 For so says Jehovah of Hosts: He has sent Me after glory, to the nations who plundered you; for he who touches you touches the pupil of His eye.
Zec 2:9 For, behold, I will shake My hand over them, and they shall be a prize for their servants. And you shall know that Jehovah has sent Me.
Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion. For, lo, I come; and I will dwell among you, says Jehovah.
Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to Jehovah in that day, and they shall be My people. And I will dwell among you; and you shall know that Jehovah of Hosts has sent Me to you.
Zec 2:12 And Jehovah shall possess Judah, His portion in the holy land, and He shall again choose Jerusalem.
Zec 2:13 All flesh, be silent before Jehovah. For He is raised up out of His holy habitation.



Zec 8:1 And the Word of Jehovah was to me, saying,
Zec 8:2 So says Jehovah of Hosts: I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great wrath.
Zec 8:3 So says Jehovah: I have returned to Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. And Jerusalem shall be called a City of Truth, and the mountain of Jehovah of Hosts, the Holy Mountain.
Zec 8:4 So says Jehovah of Hosts: There shall yet be old men and old women sitting in the streets of Jerusalem; and each man with his staff in his hand because of their many days.
Zec 8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in its streets.
Zec 8:6 So says Jehovah of Hosts: If it is marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, will it also be marvelous in My eyes? says Jehovah of Hosts.
Zec 8:7 So says Jehovah of Hosts: Behold, I will save My people from the rising sun and from the land of the setting sun.
Zec 8:8 And I will bring them, and they shall live in the midst of Jerusalem. And they shall be for a people to Me, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.


Merton.

ShirleyFord
Jul 5th 2008, 11:09 AM
I'm not sure what I'm arguing for or against, but I believe that Satan has been defeated at the Cross but he still has free reign to try to keep blind all who will not believe in Christ. I say it that way because if they are not in Christ then they are on his side.
As believers we have spiritual weapons with which to fight and protect us. They are weapons which include all of what Christ gave us from His death, burial and resurrection.

Either way, Satan will not be totally out of the way until he is shut into the Lake of Fire for eternity. That's why we know he was defeated at the Cross because at the end of the Book it becomes a real reality.

Absolutely. Paul tells us in 2 Thess. 1-2 that Jesus destroys Satan at His second Coming. He wrote to the Church in Thessalonica in the first century that Satan was being restrained, held back at that time. He doesn't say that his restrainment renders him totally helpless so that he cannot move.

Mograce2U
Jul 5th 2008, 05:00 PM
Absolutely. Paul tells us in 2 Thess. 1-2 that Jesus destroys Satan at His second Coming. He wrote to the Church in Thessalonica in the first century that Satan was being restrained, held back at that time. He doesn't say that his restrainment renders him totally helpless so that he cannot move.Hi Shirley,
I am not sure that you can use 2 Thes to support the binding of Satan from deceiving the people. Because that was the work he was about doing at he drew the people into apostasy and rebellion. What was being held fast was the covering that was over these things which prevented anyone from knowing what was going on. The mystery of iniquity was however at work and under God's control and timing. The timing of which was set to be revealed in the event which was the sign of the Lord bringing His word to pass.

In this passage it is clear that the Lord is allowing the people to be deceived for His good purpose.

(2 Th 2:11-12 KJV) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I would not place the binding of the devil at this point but perhaps afterwards, when these things were accomplished. Here it seems Satan is being controlled for a purpose which INVOLVES deceit.

cwb
Jul 5th 2008, 05:12 PM
Hi Shirley,
I am not sure that you can use 2 Thes to support the binding of Satan from deceiving the people. Because that was the work he was about doing at he drew the people into apostasy and rebellion. What was being held fast was the covering that was over these things which prevented anyone from knowing what was going on. The mystery of iniquity was however at work and under God's control and timing. The timing of which was set to be revealed in the event which was the sign of the Lord bringing His word to pass.

In this passage it is clear that the Lord is allowing the people to be deceived for His good purpose.

(2 Th 2:11-12 KJV) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I would not place the binding of the devil at this point but perhaps afterwards, when these things were accomplished. Here it seems Satan is being controlled for a purpose which INVOLVES deceit.

The "man of sin" has not been revealed as of yet and the "mystery of iniquity" is still going on. The man of sin is the strong delusion God is going to send the unbelievers.

Mograce2U
Jul 5th 2008, 05:39 PM
The "man of sin" has not been revealed as of yet and the "mystery of iniquity" is still going on. The man of sin is the strong delusion God is going to send the unbelievers.But why would you take this beyond the time in which Paul wrote this letter to the Thessalonians? Their concern was for the persecutions they were undergoing from their own countrymen as Jerusalem was too from the Jews - indeed all the brethren. That is the target for which the apostasy and the iniquity which was causing it were working at the hands of the devil. A time which was SOON to come to an end and was already AT HAND. The binding of the devil had not happened yet since he was the one the Lord was using to bring this time to its conclusion. Which seems to fit with the release of locusts sent to demonize the people.

ShirleyFord
Jul 5th 2008, 07:10 PM
In II Thess 2, the devil is restrained from bringing his man of sin to reign. The devil is not restrained from working. In fact those verses in II Thess 2 show that the enemy has been working since the first century and is still at work today. The devil is still the god of this prsesent evil world and his purpose is still to steal, kill and destroy.

Four very good points CWB! :)

1. "In II Thess 2, the devil is restrained from bringing his man of sin to reign...."
2. "The devil is not restrainded from working."
3. "In fact those verses in II Thess 2 show that the enemy has been working since the first century and is still at work today."
4. "The devil is still the god of this prsesent evil world and his purpose is still to steal, kill and destroy."


Jesus in the 1st century told John to write down in a book concerning the devil's binding:

Rev 20

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Sounds like the apostle Paul n the 1st century received the same revelation from Jesus had the same revelation of Satan's binding as the apostle John did in the 1st century from Jesus:



2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Rev 20:3b "him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



II Thess2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

How? "whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy

The same One who binds the devil, has the power to loose him from his binding and then has the power to destroy him. How does Jesus destroy the devil?

How and when? "with the brightness of his coming:"

At the glorious fiery Second Coming of Christ in all His Glory and Might!

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


Shirley

cwb
Jul 5th 2008, 07:22 PM
But why would you take this beyond the time in which Paul wrote this letter to the Thessalonians? Their concern was for the persecutions they were undergoing from their own countrymen as Jerusalem was too from the Jews - indeed all the brethren.

Their concern was for the persecutions they were enduring. They believed that the day of the Lord was upon them and that was why they were suffering the persecution. This is why the apostle Paul told them, "Do not be troubled as though the day of the Lord is happening".



A time which was SOON to come to an end and was already AT HAND.



I am not sure where you see that in II Thess 2. Could you show me where you got that in this passage?

Mograce2U
Jul 5th 2008, 09:34 PM
Their concern was for the persecutions they were enduring. They believed that the day of the Lord was upon them and that was why they were suffering the persecution. This is why the apostle Paul told them, "Do not be troubled as though the day of the Lord is happening".

I am not sure where you see that in II Thess 2. Could you show me where you got that in this passage?
Their persecutions were not the mark that the day of vengeance had arrived, because the sin of the evildoers (the ones marked for damnation) had not yet come to their fullness. That was to be the mark upon that day of wrath which elsewhere Paul does say is at hand. Here he says it is not yet here and also explains what the things will be that mark that day as well as the reason.

Just because here Paul says it had not arrived yet, ought not cause us to think he meant it was still 2000+ years in the future! Especially since the things were already in the works which were bringing it about.

wpm
Jul 6th 2008, 03:49 AM
Only Sodomony cities were totally destroyed in Lots day and the same occurs at the second coming of Christ.

Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth will weep for her, and will wail over her, those having fornicated and having luxuriated with her, when they see the smoke of her burning;
Rev 18:10 standing from afar because of the fear of her torment, saying, Woe! Woe to the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment came.

In Noah's day, all who were in the ark survived the flood and repopulated the earth.




Zec 2:4 and said to him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem will dwell like unwalled villages, for the multitude of men and livestock in her midst.
Zec 2:5 And I will be to her a wall of fire all around, and I will be for glory in her midst, declares Jehovah.
Zec 2:6 Ho! Ho! Flee then from the land of the north, says Jehovah. For I have scattered you as the four winds of the heavens, declares Jehovah.
Zec 2:7 Ho, O Zion! Escape, you who live with the daughter of Babylon.
Zec 2:8 For so says Jehovah of Hosts: He has sent Me after glory, to the nations who plundered you; for he who touches you touches the pupil of His eye.
Zec 2:9 For, behold, I will shake My hand over them, and they shall be a prize for their servants. And you shall know that Jehovah has sent Me.
Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion. For, lo, I come; and I will dwell among you, says Jehovah.
Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to Jehovah in that day, and they shall be My people. And I will dwell among you; and you shall know that Jehovah of Hosts has sent Me to you.
Zec 2:12 And Jehovah shall possess Judah, His portion in the holy land, and He shall again choose Jerusalem.
Zec 2:13 All flesh, be silent before Jehovah. For He is raised up out of His holy habitation.



Zec 8:1 And the Word of Jehovah was to me, saying,
Zec 8:2 So says Jehovah of Hosts: I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great wrath.
Zec 8:3 So says Jehovah: I have returned to Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. And Jerusalem shall be called a City of Truth, and the mountain of Jehovah of Hosts, the Holy Mountain.
Zec 8:4 So says Jehovah of Hosts: There shall yet be old men and old women sitting in the streets of Jerusalem; and each man with his staff in his hand because of their many days.
Zec 8:5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in its streets.
Zec 8:6 So says Jehovah of Hosts: If it is marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, will it also be marvelous in My eyes? says Jehovah of Hosts.
Zec 8:7 So says Jehovah of Hosts: Behold, I will save My people from the rising sun and from the land of the setting sun.
Zec 8:8 And I will bring them, and they shall live in the midst of Jerusalem. And they shall be for a people to Me, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.


Merton.

You are sidestepping the issue. Jesus said in Luke 17,“the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all” (v29).

The Lord concludes,“Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (or) apokaluptetai” (v 30).

There you have it. It is the destruction that befell the lone city of Sodom that Jesus equates the fate of the earth at His return to. Anything else is forcing something into the text that isn't there. All the wicked were destroyed then, so will it be at Christ's return. Anyway, whatever His subject matter is was totally destroyed. I put it to you it was the city of Sodom He was speaking of!

Paul says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day” (II Thessalonians 1:7-10).

What unsaved individuals do you consider are excluded from those "that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

Paul

cwb
Jul 6th 2008, 06:28 AM
Their persecutions were not the mark that the day of vengeance had arrived, because the sin of the evildoers (the ones marked for damnation) had not yet come to their fullness. That was to be the mark upon that day of wrath which elsewhere Paul does say is at hand. Here he says it is not yet here and also explains what the things will be that mark that day as well as the reason.

Just because here Paul says it had not arrived yet, ought not cause us to think he meant it was still 2000+ years in the future! Especially since the things were already in the works which were bringing it about.

So do you believe the "man of sin" the passage speaks about was already revealed 2000 years ago? Who was he?

cwb
Jul 6th 2008, 08:06 AM
Four very good points CWB! :)

1. "In II Thess 2, the devil is restrained from bringing his man of sin to reign...."
2. "The devil is not restrainded from working."
3. "In fact those verses in II Thess 2 show that the enemy has been working since the first century and is still at work today."
4. "The devil is still the god of this prsesent evil world and his purpose is still to steal, kill and destroy."


Jesus in the 1st century told John to write down in a book concerning the devil's binding:

Rev 20

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Sounds like the apostle Paul n the 1st century received the same revelation from Jesus had the same revelation of Satan's binding as the apostle John did in the 1st century from Jesus:



2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Rev 20:3b "him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



II Thess2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

How? "whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy

The same One who binds the devil, has the power to loose him from his binding and then has the power to destroy him. How does Jesus destroy the devil?

How and when? "with the brightness of his coming:"

At the glorious fiery Second Coming of Christ in all His Glory and Might!

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


Shirley

Shirley, I can see where you are coming from in saying that the adversary is restrained now from bringing forth the man of sin. I am also glad that you understand that the binding of Satan in Rev. 20 does not mean we no longer have an opponent we need to deal with. However some of the posts I have read from some others of the a-mill viewpoint has caused me to think that there are some (certainly not all) a-millers who believe they no longer have an enemy they have to deal with since that enemy is "bound". I just think that someone not understanding what the enemy can do can make them more vulnerable to his attacks. By the same token, someone not understanding the power they have in the Lord can also make someone more vulnerable. We certainly have power over our adversary in the name of Jesus Christ. However I do not believe that power is automatic. We still have to use the power that we have against the devil.

Merton
Jul 6th 2008, 09:59 AM
You are sidestepping the issue. Jesus said in Luke 17,“the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all” (v29).

The Lord concludes,“Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (or) apokaluptetai” (v 30).

There you have it. It is the destruction that befell the lone city of Sodom that Jesus equates the fate of the earth at His return to. Anything else is forcing something into the text that isn't there. All the wicked were destroyed then, so will it be at Christ's return. Anyway, whatever His subject matter is was totally destroyed. I put it to you it was the city of Sodom He was speaking of!



Yes, everyone left in Sodom were destroyed but everyone NOT in Sodom etc. were not destroyed.--

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice out of Heaven saying, My people, come out of her, that you may not share in her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues;

Rev 18:15 The merchants of these things, the ones being enriched from her, will stand from afar because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning;
Rev 18:16 and saying, Woe! Woe to the great city having been clothed in linen and purple and scarlet, and having been gilded with gold and precious stone, and pearls!
Rev 18:17 For in one hour such great wealth was desolated. And every ship-pilot and all company on the ships, and sailors, and as many as work the sea, stood from afar,
Rev 18:18 and cried out, seeing the smoke of her burning, saying, What is like the great city?
Rev 18:19 And they threw dust on their heads, and cried out, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe! Woe to the great city, by which all those having ships in the sea were rich, from her costliness, because in one hour she was ruined.


Paul says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day” (II Thessalonians 1:7-10).

What unsaved individuals do you consider are excluded from those "that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"?


What makes you think that anyone not destroyed in the 7th vial and Armageddon are those who do not know God and disobedient to the messages of the three angels of Rev.ch 14--


Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
"When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day”


Why do you think that the saints preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God to the whole world before the end comes?


Do you think that it is useless for God to send it, and that the devil can stop it being preached or believed?


Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the earth for a testimony to all the nations, and then will come the end.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, These, the ones having been clothed in the white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?
Rev 7:14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are those coming out of the great tribulation; and they washed their robes and whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Because of this they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His sanctuary. And He sitting on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
Rev 7:16 And they will not hunger still, nor will they thirst still, nor at all shall fall on them the sun, nor any kind of heat.
Rev 7:17 Because the Lamb in the midst of the throne will shepherd them, and will lead them on living springs of waters; and God will wipe off every tear from their eyes.


Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Merton.

David Taylor
Jul 6th 2008, 01:58 PM
Yes, everyone left in Sodom were destroyed but everyone NOT in Sodom etc. were not destroyed.--

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice out of Heaven saying, My people, come out of her, that you may not share in her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues;

Rev 18:15 The merchants of these things, the ones being enriched from her, will stand from afar because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning;
Rev 18:16 and saying, Woe! Woe to the great city having been clothed in linen and purple and scarlet, and having been gilded with gold and precious stone, and pearls!
Rev 18:17 For in one hour such great wealth was desolated. And every ship-pilot and all company on the ships, and sailors, and as many as work the sea, stood from afar,
Rev 18:18 and cried out, seeing the smoke of her burning, saying, What is like the great city?
Rev 18:19 And they threw dust on their heads, and cried out, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe! Woe to the great city, by which all those having ships in the sea were rich, from her costliness, because in one hour she was ruined.

[font=Arial]


What makes you think that anyone not destroyed in the 7th vial and Armageddon are those who do not know God and disobedient to the messages of the three angels of Rev.ch 14--


[SIZE=3][COLOR=#800000]Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [COLOR=#808080]his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
"When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, [U]and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day”


Why do you think that the saints preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God to the whole world before the end comes?


Do you think that it is useless for God to send it, and that the devil can stop it being preached or believed?


Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the earth for a testimony to all the nations, and then will come the end.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, These, the ones having been clothed in the white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?
Rev 7:14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are those coming out of the great tribulation; and they washed their robes and whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Because of this they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His sanctuary. And He sitting on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
Rev 7:16 And they will not hunger still, nor will they thirst still, nor at all shall fall on them the sun, nor any kind of heat.
Rev 7:17 Because the Lamb in the midst of the throne will shepherd them, and will lead them on living springs of waters; and God will wipe off every tear from their eyes.


Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper inthething whereto I sent it.
Merton.


Now is the time of the outgoing of the gospel to all the earth; according to the scripture.

When Christ returns, it will be the time of the reaping of the grapes; and the treading of the winepress of the wrath of Almighty God for those who have rejected Christ.

The Time for salvation is today; when Christ comes, it is the judgment.

7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"

25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. "

5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

1:7 "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord"

Noone survives the Lord's return from Heaven. Either you are united with Him in glory, because He has redeemed you from your sins,

or

you are cast away into the eternal flames.

No groups or individuals are exempt or escape His judgement, at His return from Heaven.

Firstfruits
Jul 6th 2008, 04:57 PM
Now is the time of the outgoing of the gospel to all the earth; according to the scripture.

When Christ returns, it will be the time of the reaping of the grapes; and the treading of the winepress of the wrath of Almighty God for those who have rejected Christ.

The Time for salvation is today; when Christ comes, it is the judgment.

7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"

25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. "

5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

1:7 "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord"

Noone survives the Lord's return from Heaven. Either you are united with Him in glory, because He has redeemed you from your sins,

or

you are cast away into the eternal flames.

No groups or individuals are exempt or escape His judgement, at His return from Heaven.




Amen to that David!!!!

FF

cdo
Jul 7th 2008, 12:17 AM
Only the wicked at the battle are slain.
the kings of the earth and their armies
(at the battle)

Hook Rev. 16 to it?
"..to gather them to the battle..."
v14

Notice how it also warns people to watch and keep their garments as He will come like a thief.
Jesus must be expecting some people to be left to survive on the earth, besides Israel.

The remnant from the battle evil bunch will be slain by the Lord.
shown in Rev. 19

Rev. 19 links right to chaper 20, John doesn't place a break between these.

You need chapter 19 to know that John meant the one army that fought at the battle - takes their seats to reign, and so does the non-Armageddon army take their seats - for they are the trib martyrs that had the victory already before the marriage of the Lamb time.



Hi, Just a quick ? or Answer...
When you posted (about Jesus coming as a thief in the night)...I hope you meant that, that day should not come upon us unaware, because we are His Children and we should not be surprised as the time grows closer. We should continue to do the right things Be Holy for HE is HOLY ! And recieve a righteous robe.It's the wicked who will be caught off guard.

The 2nd part...(people still left on earth) besides Israel?
Which is the Holy War.As Jesus comes with all His saints,
we who are alive at His coming will be caught up to meet HIM for ever more.There will not be any left on this earth:
Not Even Israel.
Question: Who are the non-Armageddon ?
Please explain.
I understand it to be only one Holy War and in chapter 19
That is where they are told to wait a little while longer and was given their righteous robe; as in being told in John's Vision about who they are .

Be Blessed,,,,
CDO:pp

wpm
Jul 7th 2008, 03:03 AM
some of the posts I have read from some others of the a-mill viewpoint has caused me to think that there are some (certainly not all) a-millers who believe they no longer have an enemy they have to deal with since that enemy is "bound".

I don't know of any Amil here that would hold to that. He is alive and kicking but restrained by chains that hamper his movement.

Paul

wpm
Jul 7th 2008, 03:09 AM
Yes, everyone left in Sodom were destroyed but everyone NOT in Sodom etc. were not destroyed.--



Christ was giving 2 examples of annihilations to illustration the total destruction that will accompany His climactic return. The focus of Christ's words was: "destroyed them all."

Paul

ShirleyFord
Jul 7th 2008, 03:29 AM
Shirley, I can see where you are coming from in saying that the adversary is restrained now from bringing forth the man of sin. I am also glad that you understand that the binding of Satan in Rev. 20 does not mean we no longer have an opponent we need to deal with. However some of the posts I have read from some others of the a-mill viewpoint has caused me to think that there are some (certainly not all) a-millers who believe they no longer have an enemy they have to deal with since that enemy is "bound". I just think that someone not understanding what the enemy can do can make them more vulnerable to his attacks. By the same token, someone not understanding the power they have in the Lord can also make someone more vulnerable. We certainly have power over our adversary in the name of Jesus Christ. However I do not believe that power is automatic. We still have to use the power that we have against the devil.

Amen and Amen, CWB!

You hit the nail right on the head. It is all in the Mighty Power of the most Wonderful Name that the devils trembled when Christ Jesus and obeyed Him walked the earth

I certainly am well aware of how the devil comes to steal, kill and destroy the child of God once God saves him; and especially when the devil sees that the child of God is a threat to his kingdom. I have seen it since day 1 when God saved me 41 years ago.
But none of these things have defeated me yet. And I figure that at 68 years old I've pretty much wore out the devil. Or I thought so. This time he had set out to kill me and finally be through with me once and for all.

I came home from the hospital June 2nd after a 11 day stay with congestive heart failure.

I tried to talk my dr. into giving me something for the accute broncitus that I have had every spring and summer since I was 2 weeks old and send me home to recover.

He has been my dr. for many years and he is always so kind and gentle. Nor have I ever seen him when he looked worried about anything. Very soft-spoken and unemotional. Not that day though. After he read my chart after his nurse got my vitals, he turned around, "Shirley,I'm going to have to admit you to the hospital. " And he looked at my husband Frank, "Take her right on from here right now as soon as I get her orders written."

When I began pleading with my doctor and begging him to send me home instead. He gave me only the one option:

I'm admitting you to the hospital. I'm not going to send you home to die. And that it exactly what will happen if you don't get to the hospital right now.

Shirley

cwb
Jul 7th 2008, 05:57 AM
I don't know of any Amil here that would hold to that. He is alive and kicking but restrained by chains that hamper his movement.

Paul

There have been quite a few posts I have read from some of the a-millers (not talking about you. I know from other discussions with you that you understand that we still have an enemy we are at war with) on this board that seemed to me to imply that since Satan is bound we no longer have to deal with him until he is released. Maybe I just misunderstood those posts.

cwb
Jul 7th 2008, 06:00 AM
Amen and Amen, CWB!

You hit the nail right on the head. It is all in the Mighty Power of the most Wonderful Name that the devils trembled when Christ Jesus and obeyed Him walked the earth

I certainly am well aware of how the devil comes to steal, kill and destroy the child of God once God saves him; and especially when the devil sees that the child of God is a threat to his kingdom. I have seen it since day 1 when God saved me 41 years ago.
But none of these things have defeated me yet. And I figure that at 68 years old I've pretty much wore out the devil. Or I thought so. This time he had set out to kill me and finally be through with me once and for all.

I came home from the hospital June 2nd after a 11 day stay with congestive heart failure.

I tried to talk my dr. into giving me something for the accute broncitus that I have had every spring and summer since I was 2 weeks old and send me home to recover.

He has been my dr. for many years and he is always so kind and gentle. Nor have I ever seen him when he looked worried about anything. Very soft-spoken and unemotional. Not that day though. After he read my chart after his nurse got my vitals, he turned around, "Shirley,I'm going to have to admit you to the hospital. " And he looked at my husband Frank, "Take her right on from here right now as soon as I get her orders written."

When I began pleading with my doctor and begging him to send me home instead. He gave me only the one option:

I'm admitting you to the hospital. I'm not going to send you home to die. And that it exactly what will happen if you don't get to the hospital right now.

Shirley

Glad you are still with us. Praise God.

My heart's Desire
Jul 7th 2008, 06:39 AM
It is written that the people on the earth are deceived by the miracles that the beast and the false prophet perform by the power they receive from Satan, so if Satan has been bound then the beast and the false prophet must have been here to use the power given to them before Satan is bound. So here's my question, Has all that is written is Revlation 13, etc, been fulfilled?


Firstfruits
No, Revelation 13 has not been fulfilled. Still future.

Firstfruits
Jul 7th 2008, 10:18 AM
No, Revelation 13 has not been fulfilled. Still future.

Thank you, My hearts Desire,

God bless!!

Firstfruits

ShirleyFord
Jul 7th 2008, 01:05 PM
Glad you are still with us. Praise God.

Thanks CWB!

One thing the Lord has convinced me of though through this battle:

That puny little devil can only "roar like a lion" when he is seeking whom he may devour. He may be the god of this world, the prince of the power of the air but I will never again tremble and be afraid of his roar. Since the middle of May, I've seen with my own eyes that the final words of Jesus to His disciples are the absolute Truth, just before He ascended back into heaven from the earth (and the angel's assured them as they watched Him go - "This same Jesus shall come back in like manner as you see Him go') - after His Glorious Victory over the devil and his dark, evil domain, this world, He declared in a loud Roar as He went up: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

The True Lion: God's Lion of Judah: the real deal. No wonder the devil and his kingdom trembled with such fear when Jesus came upon the devil and his legion of demons on his own turf, on the devil's own territory: his dark, evil kingdom, with a Shout, not to scare the devil or to see if he would tremble and be afraid, and run and hide. No not against the wordly prince and god over his kingdom, this world (those who know not out Lord). Jesus bound the demons that had the Gaderean demonic bound and they gladly obeyed His command and loosed the man and came out of him.

But our Lord and God, God's Prince declared with a loud Victorious Shout:

"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."


Paul tells us this about the absolute vicorty of our Lord at Calvary:

Colossians 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

God's great OT prophet prophecied this about Jesus:

Hos 5:14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.

John declared in the 1st century that Jesus was at that time, "the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David" (Rev. 5:5)

In the book of Acts Peter declared

Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

For the first time in my 41 yr. walk with the Lord, I've learned in less than 2 months the awesome Power of our Lord against the raging battle of the devil against His child of God, His possession in the earth. The Battle is the Lord's. It is His battle. Not ours. He is the only One that Has the Absolute Power and the absolute legal authority in the earth today to do battle against the devil on the devil's territory.

I couldn't do anything. I could feel my life being sucked away from me. I had no breath to rebuke the devil nor quote Scripture to him in a loud voice boldly. And it wasn't because I was reading and studying my Bible those 11 days.

Although I found a Gideon Bible in the top of my night stand, I couldn't see the words to read it. And the pain was so paralyzing even after frequent shots of the strongest pain killer to ease the pain known to man (that can only be used legally in an inpatient hospital setting and then only in the most critical of cases) and not enough oxygen in my lungs to breath enough to stay physically alive (even though I was on 3 li. of oxygen being pumped into my lungs), I was a defeated foe in Satan's territory. I was dying and I knew it. And there was nothing I could do about it.

The devil had roared with his trumpet sound. He mustv'e thought, Fnally, I got her where I want her. I've knocked her down. And she can't get up. I'll win this battle for sure, this time. She is easy prey. She is down for the count. And then I will destroy her and kick her out of my way.

He thought the same about Paul too when he had knocked him down:

2 Tim 4:17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.



Shirley

wpm
Jul 7th 2008, 08:03 PM
There have been quite a few posts I have read from some of the a-millers (not talking about you. I know from other discussions with you that you understand that we still have an enemy we are at war with) on this board that seemed to me to imply that since Satan is bound we no longer have to deal with him until he is released. Maybe I just misunderstood those posts.

I would suggest you have misunderstood them. I read most Amil posts here and I have never saw that. Amils believe that Satan is held within a spiritual prison that limits his movement. They believe that he doesn't have the freedom or control over the ethnos that he had before the cross.

Paul

My heart's Desire
Jul 7th 2008, 09:13 PM
I would suggest you have misunderstood them. I read most Amil posts here and I have never saw that. Amils believe that Satan is held within a spiritual prison that limits his movement. They believe that he doesn't have the freedom or control over the ethnos that he had before the cross.

Paul
You know, I think I believe that only as far as before or after the Cross, Satan can still do only as much as he is allowed by God. And as far as sickness, disease, corruption etc. we are still living on this earth that is still under the curse. Not only that people reap what they sow. I believe that is true of all humans.

John146
Jul 7th 2008, 09:54 PM
Yes, everyone left in Sodom were destroyed but everyone NOT in Sodom etc. were not destroyed.--

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice out of Heaven saying, My people, come out of her, that you may not share in her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues;

Rev 18:15 The merchants of these things, the ones being enriched from her, will stand from afar because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning;
Rev 18:16 and saying, Woe! Woe to the great city having been clothed in linen and purple and scarlet, and having been gilded with gold and precious stone, and pearls!
Rev 18:17 For in one hour such great wealth was desolated. And every ship-pilot and all company on the ships, and sailors, and as many as work the sea, stood from afar,
Rev 18:18 and cried out, seeing the smoke of her burning, saying, What is like the great city?
Rev 18:19 And they threw dust on their heads, and cried out, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe! Woe to the great city, by which all those having ships in the sea were rich, from her costliness, because in one hour she was ruined.




What makes you think that anyone not destroyed in the 7th vial and Armageddon are those who do not know God and disobedient to the messages of the three angels of Rev.ch 14--


[SIZE=3][COLOR=#800000]Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [COLOR=#808080]his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[FONT=Arial]"When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day”


Why do you think that the saints preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God to the whole world before the end comes?


Do you think that it is useless for God to send it, and that the devil can stop it being preached or believed?


Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the earth for a testimony to all the nations, and then will come the end.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, These, the ones having been clothed in the white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?
Rev 7:14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are those coming out of the great tribulation; and they washed their robes and whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Because of this they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His sanctuary. And He sitting on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
Rev 7:16 And they will not hunger still, nor will they thirst still, nor at all shall fall on them the sun, nor any kind of heat.
Rev 7:17 Because the Lamb in the midst of the throne [U]will shepherd them, and will lead them on living springs of waters; and God will wipe off every tear from their eyes.


Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper inthething whereto I sent it.
Merton.You didn't answer his question. Read 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 and please tell us specifically which unbelievers are not included among those who "know not God and obey not the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ".

John146
Jul 7th 2008, 10:00 PM
There have been quite a few posts I have read from some of the a-millers (not talking about you. I know from other discussions with you that you understand that we still have an enemy we are at war with) on this board that seemed to me to imply that since Satan is bound we no longer have to deal with him until he is released. Maybe I just misunderstood those posts.I believe you must have misunderstood because I can't think of anyone here who believes that. If there are any, it can't be very many at all. That is not the typical amil belief by any means.

John146
Jul 7th 2008, 10:03 PM
You know, I think I believe that only as far as before or after the Cross, Satan can still do only as much as he is allowed by God. And as far as sickness, disease, corruption etc. we are still living on this earth that is still under the curse. Not only that people reap what they sow. I believe that is true of all humans.I don't think you are understanding the amil viewpoint. So I'll just ask a couple simple questions. How many Gentiles were saved before Christ's death on the cross? How many Gentiles have been saved after His death on the cross?

cwb
Jul 8th 2008, 12:59 AM
"Now the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet" seems like a really lousy promise of "soon" didn't mean "soon." The Greek word for "soon" literally means "quickly" or "shortly." It is used elsewhere in the NT to refer to events that not only were to happen "soon" but were even in the process of happening.

Also:

Jesus said, "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

Paul said, "Now the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet."

Seems consistent to me in speaking of events that would happen in the early days rather than thousands of years later.

Just for clarification, do you believe we are still at war with Satan or do you believe he was crushed a long time ago so we do not have to contend with him at this point in time?

Mograce2U
Jul 8th 2008, 03:13 AM
Just for clarification, do you believe we are still at war with Satan or do you believe he was crushed a long time ago so we do not have to contend with him at this point in time?I know you didn't ask me but Jesus seems clear on this matter:

(Luke 11:21-22 KJV) When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: {22} But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

(Mark 3:27 KJV) No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. (Mat 12:29)

Now it seems to me that Jesus casting out devils is proof positive of the kind of power He has over the devil. If Satan is crushed under our feet it can only be as we walk according to the Spirit. If the sharing of the gospel is able to snatch away the spoil from him, then there is a power available to us that did not exist before. All we need do is resist him to make him flee, holding fast to faith and the word of God. However if we do not follow these instructions and allow sin to give him a foothold, then we may well find him formidable to face. Because it is at that point that the fear of judgment comes back into play which is a tool he is allowed to use to work chastening. But we can walk in Jesus' victory and overcome all his temptations, which will keep his bounds where they belong.

My heart's Desire
Jul 8th 2008, 03:36 AM
I don't think you are understanding the amil viewpoint. So I'll just ask a couple simple questions. How many Gentiles were saved before Christ's death on the cross? How many Gentiles have been saved after His death on the cross?
Before the Cross, probably very few because Christ told His disciples not to go to the Gentiles, but only the house of Israel, after the Cross many were saved because of the Gospel taken to the Gentiles by Paul. That's why I'm seeing dispensationalism in a new light. You are right. I do not understand amill.

Mograce2U
Jul 8th 2008, 04:07 AM
Before the Cross, probably very few because Christ told His disciples not to go to the Gentiles, but only the house of Israel, after the Cross many were saved because of the Gospel taken to the Gentiles by Paul. That's why I'm seeing dispensationalism in a new light. You are right. I do not understand amill.I don't think you have to understand or accept all that the Amil POV says in order to see that the millennial kingdom scripture speaks of, is our current Church Age. What makes it especially hard to conceive is because dispensationalism has all this a long ways off in the far off future. Which allows it to not be held accountable to what Christ has already accomplished for us. The errors of dispensationalism mostly concern this idea that we do not YET have full redemption in Christ. But the incarnation, the cross and the resurrection was for Israel's redemption. A redemption that He brought to them - bought and paid for. Slicing off modern day Israel from the hope of the promise we have now is just wrong in view of all the scriptures which concern the promise that was first given to them and that Christ fulfilled in His first coming. It IS what the gospel we have received is all about. A gospel which dispensationalism neglects to consider in its fullness as it looks to earthly Israel rather than to Christ to find its understanding of these things.

Israel has already received the judgment due them for the rejection and crucifixion of our Lord. What you see in the land today is the result of that judgment, which has left them in apostasy and without hope. This is the outcome of rebellion and idolatry, in that they no longer know the God they claim to worship. A golden calf is what they have made of Him and that is the way they want it.

cwb
Jul 8th 2008, 04:40 AM
What makes it especially hard to conceive is because dispensationalism has all this a long ways off in the far off future. .

It does? Maybe that is just your understanding of dispensationalism.



Which allows it to not be held accountable to what Christ has already accomplished for us.

Really? Again, maybe that is just your misunderstanding of dispensationalism.



The errors of dispensationalism mostly concern this idea that we do not YET have full redemption in Christ


Wow. Where did you ever get the idea that despensationalism teaches that?



But the incarnation, the cross and the resurrection was for Israel's redemption


That's what dispensationalism teaches?:confused:confused:confused



Slicing off modern day Israel from the hope of the promise


Dispensationalists do that?


A gospel which dispensationalism neglects to consider in its fullness as it looks to earthly Israel rather than to Christ to find its understanding of these things.


Dispensationalists looks the earthly Israel rather than Christ??????????????????????



Mograce2u, I am in no way trying to defend dispensationalism as I am undecided at the present time as to what my position is. However your understanding of what dispensationalism teaches is incredibly far from what dispenstionalism really is. I'm sorry but I think your post here might be one of the worst mis-representations of dispensationalism I have ever read. It kind of shocked me as I read it.

My heart's Desire
Jul 8th 2008, 05:07 AM
I don't think you have to understand or accept all that the Amil POV says in order to see that the millennial kingdom scripture speaks of, is our current Church Age. What makes it especially hard to conceive is because dispensationalism has all this a long ways off in the far off future. Which allows it to not be held accountable to what Christ has already accomplished for us. The errors of dispensationalism mostly concern this idea that we do not YET have full redemption in Christ. But the incarnation, the cross and the resurrection was for Israel's redemption. A redemption that He brought to them - bought and paid for. Slicing off modern day Israel from the hope of the promise we have now is just wrong in view of all the scriptures which concern the promise that was first given to them and that Christ fulfilled in His first coming. It IS what the gospel we have received is all about. A gospel which dispensationalism neglects to consider in its fullness as it looks to earthly Israel rather than to Christ to find its understanding of these things.

Israel has already received the judgment due them for the rejection and crucifixion of our Lord. What you see in the land today is the result of that judgment, which has left them in apostasy and without hope. This is the outcome of rebellion and idolatry, in that they no longer know the God they claim to worship. A golden calf is what they have made of Him and that is the way they want it.


Are you sure that is what dispensationalists believe? I don't think so.
Dispensationists fully believe in what Christ accomplished at the Cross. According to some posts I've seen on this board some who are not dispensationists seem to believe that Salvation is not fully made until people endure to the end for Salvation to be secure, which to me is the same belief as your comment about dispensationsists?
What makes it especially hard to conceive is because dispensationalism has all this a long ways off in the far off future. Which allows it to not be held accountable to what Christ has already accomplished for us. The errors of dispensationalism mostly concern this idea that we do not YET have full redemption in Christ.
From what I understand dispensationists do not cut Israel off from the hope we have now. And as far as I know they don't look to Israel instead of Christ for understanding either.

Also I know I must be misunderstanding you but are you saying that since Christ came already and fulfilled the promise to Israel which they rejected that they are now the ones without God and without hope just as the gentiles were before Israel rejected Him? And that they are already judged?

My heart's Desire
Jul 8th 2008, 05:31 AM
From what I understand dispensationist says that dispensations are periods of time during which God deals with the human race in a particular way. That makes sense to me in that most of us believe that Israel was under law and that all those who believe in Christ now, Jew and Gentile are no longer under the law. Since the Cross if a Jew believes in Christ he no longer is under the Law and is saved just as Gentiles are. To me that does mean that God is now dealing with mankind in a particuliar way after the Cross. After all, God didn't say that after Salvation, Gentiles now have to have temples, sacrifices and Sabbath Laws just like the Jewish did. He is now dealing with mankind in a particuliar way than before. I see them as patterns rather than in periods of time, myself.

My heart's Desire
Jul 8th 2008, 05:42 AM
Also, we do have full redemption yet we don't. There is still death and we don't at this time have a redeemed body.

My heart's Desire
Jul 8th 2008, 06:03 AM
I don't think you have to understand or accept all that the Amil POV says in order to see that the millennial kingdom scripture speaks of, is our current Church Age. .
Ok, so give me the Scriptures that have you convinced that the church Age in which we are now living IS the Millennial Kingdom? What describes this age of the Kingdom? What does the Kingdom look like? Do people still sin because I know that I do, so am I or am I not in the Kingdom? If I'm alive on this earth and it is the millennium (Kingdom Age) and I'm not in the Kingdom then where am I? I just think I'm on earth?
Are sinners in this Kingdom? Where is the condition of the earth for this age described? Help me understand the POV. How do you know this is the millennium?

vinsight4u8
Jul 8th 2008, 12:17 PM
His release should be identified with Satan's release to deceive the nations prior to the Lord's return.

Paul

Who gets blamed for destroying the earth prior to the 7th turmpet?

the nations

Rev. 11:18

vinsight4u8
Jul 8th 2008, 12:24 PM
You are assuming that what is described in Revelation 20 must follow what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically. Do you read the entire book chronologically? I hope not because if you did you'd have the birth of Christ following the seventh trumpet (see Rev 11-12).

Let me ask you to consider something carefully as to shows what the order of Rev. is.

Which scene came first to John?
ch 15
or ch 8

in 15
verse 1
seven angels

What about chapter 8?
the seven angels


Which is first?
ch 12
a great wonder
another wonder

ch 15
another sign in heaven, great and marvellous

vinsight4u8
Jul 8th 2008, 12:34 PM
You are assuming that what is described in Revelation 20 must follow what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically. Do you read the entire book chronologically? I hope not because if you did you'd have the birth of Christ following the seventh trumpet (see Rev 11-12).

Rev. 19 begins a new section...for it has...
"And after these things..."

As in split this part off from ch 18 and begin a new things flow in order section of Revelation.

Rev. 19
"And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation..."

Why do you think they say this?
Could Hebrews 9:28 have anything to do with it?

"...Christ...shall appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

How about 1 Thes. 5:9?
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath...but to obtain salvation..."

Titus 2:13
"Looking for that...glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

So what happens at the start of ch 19?
Then God judges the city that killed the trib martyrs (mystery,Babylon)
/not every wicked person dies all over the earth at the appearing of Jesus Christ

Mograce2U
Jul 8th 2008, 04:28 PM
Ok, so give me the Scriptures that have you convinced that the church Age in which we are now living IS the Millennial Kingdom? What describes this age of the Kingdom? What does the Kingdom look like? Do people still sin because I know that I do, so am I or am I not in the Kingdom? If I'm alive on this earth and it is the millennium (Kingdom Age) and I'm not in the Kingdom then where am I? I just think I'm on earth?
Are sinners in this Kingdom? Where is the condition of the earth for this age described? Help me understand the POV. How do you know this is the millennium?I find that Isaiah 51+ describes the coming kingdom in the most detail as it was related to the arrival of Messiah. You are a redeemed member of this spiritual kingdom realm and also its physical representation upon the earth. In Rev 20 the view we are given is into the heavenly realm where the resurrected saints are. These are not the ones walking the earth and yet we have our part with them in the resurrection. Isaiah's prophecies about Messiah present this tension of the two aspects of the kingdom that was coming. That kingdom is here and we who abide in Christ are its citizens. But here we still walk in earthly shadows and do not see the kingdom in all its present glory, like the saints who have crossed over do. But the kingdom is here and Christ is ruling it from the throne of His Father. When we see Him face to face is when we will see the fullness of it. Not because it will change, but because we will.

My heart's Desire
Jul 8th 2008, 08:17 PM
I find that Isaiah 51+ describes the coming kingdom in the most detail as it was related to the arrival of Messiah. You are a redeemed member of this spiritual kingdom realm and also its physical representation upon the earth. In Rev 20 the view we are given is into the heavenly realm where the resurrected saints are. These are not the ones walking the earth and yet we have our part with them in the resurrection. Isaiah's prophecies about Messiah present this tension of the two aspects of the kingdom that was coming. That kingdom is here and we who abide in Christ are its citizens. But here we still walk in earthly shadows and do not see the kingdom in all its present glory, like the saints who have crossed over do. But the kingdom is here and Christ is ruling it from the throne of His Father. When we see Him face to face is when we will see the fullness of it. Not because it will change, but because we will.
Some of this I don't have a problem seeing, but I do not believe we are in the 1000 yr kingdom NOW and it is yet to be when Christ is on this earth ruling His Kingdom literally on the earth while Satan is truely bound.

wpm
Jul 8th 2008, 09:56 PM
Some of this I don't have a problem seeing, but I do not believe we are in the 1000 yr kingdom NOW and it is yet to be when Christ is on this earth ruling His Kingdom literally on the earth while Satan is truely bound.

What is he bound from doing? That is the core question. A secondary (yet equally important) question is: is Satan held in a literal prison or is it a spiritual prison?

Paul

vinsight4u8
Jul 9th 2008, 12:00 AM
Hi, Just a quick ? or Answer...
When you posted (about Jesus coming as a thief in the night)...I hope you meant that, that day should not come upon us unaware, because we are His Children and we should not be surprised as the time grows closer. We should continue to do the right things Be Holy for HE is HOLY ! And recieve a righteous robe.It's the wicked who will be caught off guard.

The 2nd part...(people still left on earth) besides Israel?
Which is the Holy War.As Jesus comes with all His saints,
we who are alive at His coming will be caught up to meet HIM for ever more.There will not be any left on this earth:
Not Even Israel.
Question: Who are the non-Armageddon ?
Please explain.
I understand it to be only one Holy War and in chapter 19
That is where they are told to wait a little while longer and was given their righteous robe; as in being told in John's Vision about who they are .

Be Blessed,,,,
CDO:pp

Hello back to ya,

Jesus will come like a thief twice. The first time will be during the 7th trumpet. Rev. 11 shows the two witnesses are to be slain during the second woe time the (great tribulation), then there comes quickly the time when they will rise (third woe, earthquake). So at the 7th trumpet is when the third woe happens - bringing that earthquake time that the angel had told John about. Here is when the Lord comes as a thief - the brethren your'e right are not in dakrness, they won't be surprsied at that day coming. But the wicked are busy sending gifts to each other after the two witnesses were slain. The wicked have been having a joyous time, but they will soon see Jesus Christ has come as a thief, and they are left behind.
This trumpet will sound during the earthquake time found in the 6th seal.
For the 7th seal, the church will be in heaven with the Lord, and then return from the marriage as two armies.
One army heads to the battle of ch 19 (so Armageddon), the other army (made of up trib-slain martrys) won't fight, for they have beaten the beast already. The trib martrys can't fight a battle against the beast at Armageddon because by refusing his mark and such, they already won victory over him. During the vials (for the 6th vial will bring Armageddon) goes out the message to keep garments. The message is a warning to stay alive, their is no more victory from the grave.
But as Daniel 12 shows - that people can still be blessed at the 1335th day. Daniel rises at the 1290th day along with all the rest of the just, then as in 1 Cor. 15:54 - death is swallowed up in victory. Eternal life for people from the grave has ended forever.

quiet dove
Jul 9th 2008, 02:55 AM
What is he bound from doing? That is the core question. A secondary (yet equally important) question is: is Satan held in a literal prison or is it a spiritual prison?

Paul

Satan is bound from his abilities to deceive, when men sin they can't say "the Devil made me do it". And what difference does it make if the chains are physical or spiritual. I would assume they are the same type chains that hold some of the demons now bound.

Rev 9:14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

I mean all Christ has to do is speak the words, "Satan you can't move or do anything", period. It makes no difference what the chains are made out of or where the pit is, when Christ send him there and binds him, a sent he will be and a bound he will be.

vinsight4u8
Jul 9th 2008, 02:59 AM
Chapter 20 can't happen until ch 19 is over, for "they" that get thrones in ch 20 come from the 19 battle.

"I saw thrones, and they sat..." (20:4) Rev.

Who?
Check ch 19.

wpm
Jul 9th 2008, 05:38 AM
Satan is bound from his abilities to deceive, when men sin they can't say "the Devil made me do it". And what difference does it make if the chains are physical or spiritual. I would assume they are the same type chains that hold some of the demons now bound.

Rev 9:14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

I mean all Christ has to do is speak the words, "Satan you can't move or do anything", period. It makes no difference what the chains are made out of or where the pit is, when Christ send him there and binds him, a sent he will be and a bound he will be.

Yes, deceive the ethnos or Gentiles no more. The veil of deception is lifted. The Gentiles are now free to take ahold of Christ. The kingdom of darkness is spiritually chained today - not with physical chains but spiritual. The kingdom of God has secured a curtailed movement of Satan and his minions within his backyard.

Jude supports the view of a current binding of the whole kingdom of darkness, in v 6, when he says,“the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlastingdesmois(Strong’s 1199) (or) chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

2 Peter 2:4 closely correlates with Jude v6, saying, “God spared not the angels that sinned, but tartaroo (or)‘cast them down to hell’, and delivered them 'intochains’ of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

This passage is an obvious mirror of Jude verse 6, describing the spiritual restrains that the whole demonic realm is currently subject to, up until the judgment

Paul

Mograce2U
Jul 9th 2008, 04:00 PM
It seems that such chains of darkness under which Satan's kingdom is held implies that there is no light from God present there. The devil's being cast out of heaven into the earth means he has no access to the throne of God to either accuse the brethren or hear the plans and purposes of God. The spiritually blind are held in this darkness too until the light of the gospel shines on them. Since he can't know what God is doing then he can't thwart that work either. I think that his working the crucifixion is proof that he was clueless as to what would transpire there. His access to men is only thru their sin, he cannot oppose their good works, nor can he stand against true faith and the prayers of the saints.

It would seem there is a shift of power in the world in that the power of God is made available to men who have the light of God's word in their hearts. And no light nor power is available in the kingdom of darkness that can overcome it. Rather the light we have chases the darkness away, making his kingdom smaller and smaller... Taking away the fear of death from men means they have no reason to fear him or serve him at all.

If the strongman had not been bound in these chains then his goods couldn't be stolen from him.

ShirleyFord
Jul 9th 2008, 04:52 PM
Satan is bound from his abilities to deceive, when men sin they can't say "the Devil made me do it". And what difference does it make if the chains are physical or spiritual. I would assume they are the same type chains that hold some of the demons now bound.

Rev 9:14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

I mean all Christ has to do is speak the words, "Satan you can't move or do anything", period. It makes no difference what the chains are made out of or where the pit is, when Christ send him there and binds him, a sent he will be and a bound he will be.

Oh QD, That is exactly what my expert "Endtime Bible Scholars" taught me and led me to believe for 30 years or more about Satan's binding that prevents him from deceiving the nations. And they used Scriptures too to prove their claim (one of which is the same Scripture that you used here). So I believed them. After all, when I applied their own simple rules on how to know the difference between false teaching and a teaching that is absolutely true and of God: "Scripture".

1. false doctrine - No Scripture
2. true doctrine - Backed up by Scripture

While they used Scripture to back up their interpretation of Rev. 20;1-3 - "Jesus binds the devil at His Second Coming for 1000 years to prevent the literal Gentile nations of Matthew 25 (at the judgement of the nations to determine which of the modern-day nations are fit to enter into Israel's restored kingdom) from being deceived to sin against Israel - none of the Scriptures they used said what they claimed they said.

Shirley

vinsight4u8
Jul 9th 2008, 07:03 PM
Oh QD, That is exactly what my expert "Endtime Bible Scholars" taught me and led me to believe for 30 years or more about Satan's binding that prevents him from deceiving the nations. And they used Scriptures too to prove their claim (one of which is the same Scripture that you used here). So I believed them. After all, when I applied their own simple rules on how to know the difference between false teaching and a teaching that is absolutely true and of God: "Scripture".

1. false doctrine - No Scripture
2. true doctrine - Backed up by Scripture

While they used Scripture to back up their interpretation of Rev. 20;1-3 - "Jesus binds the devil at His Second Coming for 1000 years to prevent the literal Gentile nations of Matthew 25 (at the judgement of the nations to determine which of the modern-day nations are fit to enter into Israel's restored kingdom) from being deceived to sin against Israel - none of the Scriptures they used said what they claimed they said.

Shirley

The OT shows that the LORD will reign on the earth and during that time Israel - Zion will be at peace.

If you take just common ways of writing...when someone says "they"- it means the author has already told you the information needed as to identify the intended meaning.

Rev. 20:4 has - "...they sat..."
So- 20:1-3 didn't tell you who?


Rev. 19-20 events run consecutively.

19:1
"And after these things.."

/here come in order things

So you must check ch 19.

quiet dove
Jul 9th 2008, 08:37 PM
While they used Scripture to back up their interpretation of Rev. 20;1-3 - "Jesus binds the devil at His Second Coming for 1000 years to prevent the literal Gentile nations of Matthew 25 (at the judgement of the nations to determine which of the modern-day nations are fit to enter into Israel's restored kingdom) from being deceived to sin against Israel - none of the Scriptures they used said what they claimed they said.
Shirley

I do not understand what you are saying about Matthew 25. I don't see those verses speaking of separating a whole nation from a whole nation, but the peoples from those nations, which is simply saying, those who chose Christ will enter the Millennial kingdom, those who continued to deny Him will not. Don't see any contradiction there with anything in Rev and Satan being bound and not a source of deception, at least not until he is released.

Oh, I think I have to go, thunder happening, again.

ShirleyFord
Jul 9th 2008, 09:24 PM
I do not understand what you are saying about Matthew 25. I don't see those verses speaking of separating a whole nation from a whole nation, but the peoples from those nations, which is simply saying, those who chose Christ will enter the Millennial kingdom, those who continued to deny Him will not. Don't see any contradiction there with anything in Rev and Satan being bound and not a source of deception, at least not until he is released.



Right, only individuals out of those whole nations (at the Matt 25 Judgement of the Nations before Christ) "who chose Christ will enter the Millennial kingdom. " Thanks for the clarification, QD.

Now that is specifically what my "Expert Endtime Bible Prophecy Scholars" taught me beginning in the Summer of 1974 on one of the nights that a university-educated, seminary-trained and degreed, Assemblies of God ordained and licensed natural-born Jew born in the nation of Israel-evangelist preaching a week's penticost revival meeting, a converted Jew to Christ, called himself a completed Jew and not a Christian. And he wore the priestly attire of Baptist preachers: suit and white shirt and shined black leather shoes, without the tie. But no Baptist preacher I'd ever heard preached on the Second Coming of Christ like he did.

He added this one detail to the Matthew 25 Sheep and Goats Judgement of the Nations to the explanation you gave;

"Jesus said, 'as much as ye have done it to the least of these my brethren, ye have done it to me'"

That Messianic Jew back in 1974 identified "my brethren" as natural-born Jews.


Shirley

BibleProphecy
Jul 10th 2008, 09:23 PM
The thousand years, the Millennium, will occur after the Seventh Trumpet (1 Thess.4:16-17), AFTER the marriage of the Lamb has taken place in heaven, and DIRECTLY AFTER the battle of Armageddon.


AFTER the battle of Armageddon, during the Millennium, in Israel, in the valley of Hamongog, Gog (Satan) and all his multitude will be buried; for seven months Gog and all his multitude will be buried (Eze.39:11-12).


In death Gog/Satan is then bound in the bottomless pit throughout the Millennium (Re.20:1-3).


During the Millennium, they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons; they shall burn them with fire seven years (Eze.39:9-10).


During the Millennium, the KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS (Re.19:16 - Jesus) will rule all nations with a rod of iron (Re.12:5, Re.19:15).


God will spare ONE-SIXTH part (Eze.39:2) of the heathen who will go into the Millennium. They will repopulate the earth (Re.20:8) their numbers growing as the sand of the sea (Re.20:8).


During the Millennium, every one that is left of all the nations (Eze.39:2) WHICH CAME AGAINST Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles (Zech.14:16). And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain (Zech.14:17). And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles (Zech.14:18). This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles (Zech.14:19).


The Lamb’s wife (Re.19:7), the saints of the most High (Dan.7:22), the church (1 Cor.10:32) throughout all ages (Eph.3:21), will live AND reign WITH Christ throughout the thousand years.


During the Millennium, the immortal saints will judge the world (Dan.7:22, 1 Cor.6:2-3, Re.20:4).


During the Millennium, the saints of the most High (Christ Jesus’ wife) are the glory set among the heathen (Eph.39:21).




Patricia

John146
Jul 10th 2008, 09:53 PM
Satan is bound from his abilities to deceive, when men sin they can't say "the Devil made me do it".Didn't we already go over this? People have never been able to say "the devil made me do it", have they? Eve tried. God didn't exactly find her argument to be convincing, right?


And what difference does it make if the chains are physical or spiritual. I would assume they are the same type chains that hold some of the demons now bound.

Rev 9:14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

I mean all Christ has to do is speak the words, "Satan you can't move or do anything", period. It makes no difference what the chains are made out of or where the pit is, when Christ send him there and binds him, a sent he will be and a bound he will be.Are the fallen angels able to move and go around trying to deceive people? Of course they are. Yet Jude 1:6 and 2 Peter 2:4 both say they are in chains, reserved for judgment. It seems to me it matters a great deal whether the chains are spiritual or physical. Clearly, spiritual chains don't completely keep spiritual beings from moving around or trying to deceive people.

John146
Jul 10th 2008, 10:00 PM
I do not understand what you are saying about Matthew 25. I don't see those verses speaking of separating a whole nation from a whole nation, but the peoples from those nations, which is simply saying, those who chose Christ will enter the Millennial kingdom, those who continued to deny Him will not. Don't see any contradiction there with anything in Rev and Satan being bound and not a source of deception, at least not until he is released.

Oh, I think I have to go, thunder happening, again.Matthew 25:46 says of those who deny Christ, "these shall go away into everlasting punishment". And it says of those who accept Christ: "but the righteous into life eternal.". Why do you believe that these believers who enter into the supposed future millennial kingdom will die when the scripture says they enter into "life eternal"? Also, didn't Paul say that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:50)? So, why do you have flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God?

It should be clear that Matthew 25:31-46 portrays the day of judgment when unbelievers will be "cast into everlasting fire" and "go away into everlasting punishment" (Matt 25:41,46) and believers will enter into the Father's kingdom for eternity (Matt 25:34,46). We can see that Revelation 20:15 speaks of the same event as Revelation 20:15, unless you think being cast into "everlasting fire" is somehow different than being cast into the lake of fire.

quiet dove
Jul 11th 2008, 03:22 AM
Didn't we already go over this? People have never been able to say "the devil made me do it", have they? Eve tried. God didn't exactly find her argument to be convincing, right?
I think we have pretty much been over all of it. :lol:
The point is not whether God thought it a good defense, he obviously did not just like if you were to slap me and I slapped you back, God asking me about it and me saying "well he hit me first" is not going to be an acceptable defense for myself.



Are the fallen angels able to move and go around trying to deceive people? Of course they are. Yet Jude 1:6 and 2 Peter 2:4 both say they are in chains, reserved for judgment. It seems to me it matters a great deal whether the chains are spiritual or physical. Clearly, spiritual chains don't completely keep spiritual beings from moving around or trying to deceive people.My point is that what the chains are made of is irrelevant. When Jesus forbids Satan to do something no chains are probably even needed, Satan can't do it. Making this a debate about what the chains are actually made of is just side tracking from the truth taught, that Satan will be unable to work deception on mankind.

quiet dove
Jul 11th 2008, 03:40 AM
Matthew 25:46 says of those who deny Christ, "these shall go away into everlasting punishment". And it says of those who accept Christ: "but the righteous into life eternal.". Why do you believe that these believers who enter into the supposed future millennial kingdom will die when the scripture says they enter into "life eternal"? Also, didn't Paul say that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:50)? So, why do you have flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God?

It should be clear that Matthew 25:31-46 portrays the day of judgment when unbelievers will be "cast into everlasting fire" and "go away into everlasting punishment" (Matt 25:41,46) and believers will enter into the Father's kingdom for eternity (Matt 25:34,46). We can see that Revelation 20:15 speaks of the same event as Revelation 20:15, unless you think being cast into "everlasting fire" is somehow different than being cast into the lake of fire.

You and I entered eternal life when we were saved but yet here we are, still mortal. And I do not have flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God, yet again, you and I are flesh and blood and we are citizens of the kingdom of God.

But I am not arguing with your point. Even Matthew speaking of the time of Rev 20:15, after the Millennium, it still does not change that a Millennial reign is taught elsewhere in scripture. I don't really use those verses in Matthew for Millennial support and just was not thinking about what I was doing. I was just thinking about the Millennial but at the same time thinking about the nations not being nations as a whole but peoples of the nations. Which looking back is probably why I got confused with Shirley post and because of a coming storm I did not take the time to figure out where I was at.

John146
Jul 11th 2008, 01:44 PM
You and I entered eternal life when we were saved but yet here we are, still mortal. And I do not have flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God, yet again, you and I are flesh and blood and we are citizens of the kingdom of God. I understand what you're saying, but you don't believe Matt 25:34 and 1 Cor 15:50 are speaking of our spiritually entering the kingdom of God, do you? You believe they each are speaking of something that occurs in the future, right? Yes, we are spiritually in the kingdom of God now. Only spiritually. Our flesh and blood is not in the kingdom. Our flesh and blood will die one day (if Christ doesn't come first). But there will be a future manifestation of the kingdom where it will no longer be side by side with the kingdom of darkness (see Matthew 13:24-30,36-43) and where there will be no more sin and death. That is the kingdom that Matthew 25:34 and 1 Corinthians 15:50 both say we will inherit when Christ returns.


But I am not arguing with your point. Even Matthew speaking of the time of Rev 20:15, after the Millennium, it still does not change that a Millennial reign is taught elsewhere in scripture.Wait a minute. Why brush aside Matthew 25:31-46 in favor of other passages that you think refer to a future millennial reign? That passage does not allow for a future millennial reign if you take it at face value. It says that when Christ comes He will separate all people into two groups. He will give entrance to believers into the kingdom prepared for them before the foundation of the world and they will have "life eternal". Unbelievers will be cast into everlasting fire. This all happens immediately following Christ's return. So, who are the mortals that would populate a future millennial kingdom in this case? Matthew 25:31-46 does not allow for such a time period to take place.


I don't really use those verses in Matthew for Millennial support and just was not thinking about what I was doing.You can't use Matthew 25:31-46 to support premil at all so it's not surprising when premils don't want to talk much about that passage.



I was just thinking about the Millennial but at the same time thinking about the nations not being nations as a whole but peoples of the nations. Which looking back is probably why I got confused with Shirley post and because of a coming storm I did not take the time to figure out where I was at.All I know is that I don't believe you can read Matthew 25:31-46 objectively and come to the conclusion that there will be a future earthly millennial reign of Christ on the earth where people will still be sinning and dying.

Again, everyone will be divided into two groups. One group inherits the kingdom of God and "life eternal", which Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit. I understand that we are already in the kingdom of God spiritually, but that isn't what Matthew 25:34 and 1 Cor 15:50 are speaking about. The other group is cast into everlasting fire for everlasting punishment. This leaves no mortals with whom to populate a supposed earthly millennial kingdom.

Firstfruits
Jul 11th 2008, 07:33 PM
The thousand years, the Millennium, will occur after the Seventh Trumpet (1 Thess.4:16-17), AFTER the marriage of the Lamb has taken place in heaven, and DIRECTLY AFTER the battle of Armageddon.


AFTER the battle of Armageddon, during the Millennium, in Israel, in the valley of Hamongog, Gog (Satan) and all his multitude will be buried; for seven months Gog and all his multitude will be buried (Eze.39:11-12).


In death Gog/Satan is then bound in the bottomless pit throughout the Millennium (Re.20:1-3).


During the Millennium, they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons; they shall burn them with fire seven years (Eze.39:9-10).


During the Millennium, the KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS (Re.19:16 - Jesus) will rule all nations with a rod of iron (Re.12:5, Re.19:15).


God will spare ONE-SIXTH part (Eze.39:2) of the heathen who will go into the Millennium. They will repopulate the earth (Re.20:8) their numbers growing as the sand of the sea (Re.20:8).


During the Millennium, every one that is left of all the nations (Eze.39:2) WHICH CAME AGAINST Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles (Zech.14:16). And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain (Zech.14:17). And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles (Zech.14:18). This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles (Zech.14:19).


The Lamb’s wife (Re.19:7), the saints of the most High (Dan.7:22), the church (1 Cor.10:32) throughout all ages (Eph.3:21), will live AND reign WITH Christ throughout the thousand years.


During the Millennium, the immortal saints will judge the world (Dan.7:22, 1 Cor.6:2-3, Re.20:4).


During the Millennium, the saints of the most High (Christ Jesus’ wife) are the glory set among the heathen (Eph.39:21).




Patricia

If the millennium is after the seventh trumpet, how does the time for the dead take place before the millennium is finished since judgment takes place after the millennium is finished?

Events of the seventh trumpet
Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Is judgment before the millennium or after?

Firstfruits

quiet dove
Jul 11th 2008, 09:46 PM
Wait a minute. Why brush aside Matthew 25:31-46 in favor of other passages that you think refer to a future millennial reign? That passage does not allow for a future millennial reign if you take it at face value. It says that when Christ comes He will separate all people into two groups. He will give entrance to believers into the kingdom prepared for them before the foundation of the world and they will have "life eternal". Unbelievers will be cast into everlasting fire. This all happens immediately following Christ's return. So, who are the mortals that would populate a future millennial kingdom in this case? Matthew 25:31-46 does not allow for such a time period to take place.

I am not brushing these verses aside but I am not brushing aside other scripture that describes the Millennium either. Because Jesus tells us what the plan is does not necessarily mean He included every detail of the plan. We know from these that there will be judgment to life or death. But they do not erase the OT passages and promises. Seems to me that these verses are more in harmony with Rev 20 after the Millennium. So I either have many OT passages that amil applies to the Church, or history, or says will not happen because of Israels disobedience, or I have do not have the Millennial time frame described here in Matthew.

Firstfruits
Jul 12th 2008, 10:25 PM
I am not brushing these verses aside but I am not brushing aside other scripture that describes the Millennium either. Because Jesus tells us what the plan is does not necessarily mean He included every detail of the plan. We know from these that there will be judgment to life or death. But they do not erase the OT passages and promises. Seems to me that these verses are more in harmony with Rev 20 after the Millennium. So I either have many OT passages that amil applies to the Church, or history, or says will not happen because of Israels disobedience, or I have do not have the Millennial time frame described here in Matthew.

If judgment is at the seventh trumpet, is judgment before or after the millennium?

Firstfruits

Clifton
Jul 12th 2008, 10:57 PM
If judgment is at the seventh trumpet, is judgment before or after the millennium?

Firstfruits

Both.

Cp. Revelation 16:7, 19:2 and other verses in the Bible.

Birkhot (Blessings).

michaeneu
Jul 13th 2008, 12:25 AM
The Revelation supports that prior to the millennium Satan is cast down to the earth to elicit agents by granting them power, seats and authority for the purpose of “deceiving the nations”; ipso facto, Satan is responsible or guilty of “deceiving the nations” and not “bound” at all in this capacity during the intra-advent “time”. (Read on chapter 12-19 of the Revelation.) Chapter 12 is in complete juxtaposition to the “time” depicted in chapter 20, obviously (at least to those WELL studied and have understanding) because chapter 20 does not depict the same “time” in chapters 12. Chapter 20 is future in reference to the “time” depicted in chapters 12-19 and chapters 12-19 depict the intra-advent time that have continued since Christ’s first advent.

Mike

wpm
Jul 13th 2008, 06:55 AM
The Revelation supports that prior to the millennium Satan is cast down to the earth to elicit agents by granting them power, seats and authority for the purpose of “deceiving the nations”; ipso facto, Satan is responsible or guilty of “deceiving the nations” and not “bound” at all in this capacity during the intra-advent “time”. (Read on chapter 12-19 of the Revelation.) Chapter 12 is in complete juxtaposition to the “time” depicted in chapter 20, obviously (at least to those WELL studied and have understanding) because chapter 20 does not depict the same “time” in chapters 12. Chapter 20 is future in reference to the “time” depicted in chapters 12-19 and chapters 12-19 depict the intra-advent time that have continued since Christ’s first advent.

Mike

The Amillennialist interpretation of the thousand years binding of Satan is the only possible one that commands any scriptural corroboration. Time and time again Scripture identifies Christ’s earthly ministry, and especially the cross, as the time when the devil was spiritually restricted (or bound) from operating in his former manner. I John 3:8 declares, “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.For this purpose the son of God was manifested, that he might destroy (or luo or dissolve or melt up) the works of the devil.”

This reading confirms, “For this purpose” or eis touto did Christ show Himself on this earth or manifest Himself, or as Adam Clarke paraphrased, “For this very end-with this very design, was Jesus manifested in the flesh” that he might “dissolve the works of the devil.” This He came to do, and this He did. Christ perfectly accomplished His assignment. This is not merely a future hope as some suggest, but an ongoing reality since Christ’s first Advent.

Moreover, since we (as saved sinners) have now entered into the reality of this glorious kingdom, we now have become “more than conquerors through him that loved us” (Romans 8:37-39). Matthew Henry says of this passage, “The devil has designed and endeavoured to ruin the work of God in this world. The Son of God has undertaken the holy war against him. He came into our world, and was manifested in our flesh, that he might conquer him and dissolve his works. Sin will he loosen and dissolve more and more, till he has quite destroyed it.”

The devil sustained a significant spiritual head-blow at Calvary (as predicted in Genesis 3), which has restricted his wide area of influence in this world. Countless multitudes have been rescued from the grip of Satan. Christ came with that expressed assignment to destroy the devil by bruising and crushing the serpent's head. Before the Cross he deluded all the nations of the world apart from the highly favoured nation of natural Israel. Tiny Israel was the epi-centre of God’s plan of salvation before the cross, although even choice Israel was in a state of apostasy when Christ arrived. This is demonstrated by the fact there were only two godly believers waiting for Him when He first appeared in the temple – Simeon and Anna. Christ’s assault upon the kingdom of darkness was clearly not dependent upon man or built upon physical might.

Only a handful of Israelites were found faithful when Christ came to this nation to confront the kingdom of darkness. However, through His earthly ministrty and through Christ’s substitutionary death, the Lord once and for all defeated Satan and brought-to-nought the tremendous remit of the devil’s influence. The work of the Cross in this passage is in the past tense – thus the phrase “was manifested.” In essence, Calvary instigated the beginning of the end for Satan, causing his extensive influence and power to be curtailed.

Philippians 2:9-11says, “wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

Colossians 2:15 tells us that “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

The great conflict of all the ages was Calvary. There Christ took head on the forces of darkness and the purposes of God. Satan thought He could abort the will of God at the cross, and he has been foolishly thinking that ever since. Calvary defeated the devil; Christ’s Second Coming will finally enforce the final element of his downfall – his sentence and judgment. The Lake of Fire will be his eternal reward. Sadly he will take many deluded souls with him.

Christ disarmed the demonic realm during His ministry and particularly through the finished work of the Cross. Since Calvary, Satan’s kingdom has been restricted from their previous unchallenged global control – Christ “triumphing over them in it.” New King James Version renders it, “Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.” Satan was exposed time after time as Christ and His disciples defeated the minions of hell with the authority of heaven. The Gospel was now free to invade the once-darkened Gentile nations. Not that every single Gentile would believe, but that the nations would now be free to receive the Gospel. This decisive defeat wrought great injury upon the kingdom of darkness and its influence, causing definite spiritual restraint. Moreover, it was perfected in a public manner, thus reinforcing the humiliation that was accomplished. Christ now currently reigns over that demonic realm being undisputed “head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:10).

Notwithstanding, the intra-Advent period sees the continued, albeit incapacitated, movement of this evil realm, although they exist in an already condemned state awaiting their final put-down. The chains that hold them through the Cross ensure the curtailment of their advance, the limiting of their power and the curbing of their wicked design. Moreover, the authority bestowed upon the kingdom of God on the earth and the spread of the glorious Gospel of Christ to the nations reinforces the victory that has already been secured. The Gospel message now brings liberty to individuals, communities and nations that were once outside of Christ and hope and witnesses the ongoing relentless stripping of Satan’s empire as his grip over countless lives are eternally broken. Satan's control is demolished everywhere the kingdom triumphs - in the case of individuals, nations and peoples.

Paul

quiet dove
Jul 13th 2008, 08:35 AM
The Amillennialist interpretation of the thousand years binding of Satan is the only possible one that commands any scriptural corroboration.

Paul

IYHO anyway, but not IMHO. :kiss:

Firstfruits
Jul 13th 2008, 10:02 AM
Both.

Cp. Revelation 16:7, 19:2 and other verses in the Bible.

Birkhot (Blessings).

So the events of the seventh trumpet happen both before and after the
millennium?

Are the battles mentioned in Rev 16: and Rev. 19 not the same or does the beast and the false prophet gather the nations to battle the Lord more than once?

Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 16:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Rev 17:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 19:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 20:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Firstfruits

michaeneu
Jul 13th 2008, 10:20 AM
The Amillennialist interpretation of the thousand years binding of Satan is the only possible one that commands any scriptural corroboration. Time and time again Scripture identifies Christ’s earthly ministry, and especially the cross, as the time when the devil was spiritually restricted (or bound) from operating in his former manner. I John 3:8 declares, “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.For this purpose the son of God was manifested, that he might destroy (or luo or dissolve or melt up) the works of the devil.”

This reading confirms, “For this purpose” or eis touto did Christ show Himself on this earth or manifest Himself, or as Adam Clarke paraphrased, “For this very end-with this very design, was Jesus manifested in the flesh” that he might “dissolve the works of the devil.” This He came to do, and this He did. Christ perfectly accomplished His assignment. This is not merely a future hope as some suggest, but an ongoing reality since Christ’s first Advent.

Moreover, since we (as saved sinners) have now entered into the reality of this glorious kingdom, we now have become “more than conquerors through him that loved us” (Romans 8:37-39). Matthew Henry says of this passage, “The devil has designed and endeavoured to ruin the work of God in this world. The Son of God has undertaken the holy war against him. He came into our world, and was manifested in our flesh, that he might conquer him and dissolve his works. Sin will he loosen and dissolve more and more, till he has quite destroyed it.”

The devil sustained a significant spiritual head-blow at Calvary (as predicted in Genesis 3), which has restricted his wide area of influence in this world. Countless multitudes have been rescued from the grip of Satan. Christ came with that expressed assignment to destroy the devil by bruising and crushing the serpent's head. Before the Cross he deluded all the nations of the world apart from the highly favoured nation of natural Israel. Tiny Israel was the epi-centre of God’s plan of salvation before the cross, although even choice Israel was in a state of apostasy when Christ arrived. This is demonstrated by the fact there were only two godly believers waiting for Him when He first appeared in the temple – Simeon and Anna. Christ’s assault upon the kingdom of darkness was clearly not dependent upon man or built upon physical might.

Only a handful of Israelites were found faithful when Christ came to this nation to confront the kingdom of darkness. However, through His earthly ministrty and through Christ’s substitutionary death, the Lord once and for all defeated Satan and brought-to-nought the tremendous remit of the devil’s influence. The work of the Cross in this passage is in the past tense – thus the phrase “was manifested.” In essence, Calvary instigated the beginning of the end for Satan, causing his extensive influence and power to be curtailed.

Philippians 2:9-11says, “wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

Colossians 2:15 tells us that “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

The great conflict of all the ages was Calvary. There Christ took head on the forces of darkness and the purposes of God. Satan thought He could abort the will of God at the cross, and he has been foolishly thinking that ever since. Calvary defeated the devil; Christ’s Second Coming will finally enforce the final element of his downfall – his sentence and judgment. The Lake of Fire will be his eternal reward. Sadly he will take many deluded souls with him.

Christ disarmed the demonic realm during His ministry and particularly through the finished work of the Cross. Since Calvary, Satan’s kingdom has been restricted from their previous unchallenged global control – Christ “triumphing over them in it.” New King James Version renders it, “Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.” Satan was exposed time after time as Christ and His disciples defeated the minions of hell with the authority of heaven. The Gospel was now free to invade the once-darkened Gentile nations. Not that every single Gentile would believe, but that the nations would now be free to receive the Gospel. This decisive defeat wrought great injury upon the kingdom of darkness and its influence, causing definite spiritual restraint. Moreover, it was perfected in a public manner, thus reinforcing the humiliation that was accomplished. Christ now currently reigns over that demonic realm being undisputed “head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:10).

Notwithstanding, the intra-Advent period sees the continued, albeit incapacitated, movement of this evil realm, although they exist in an already condemned state awaiting their final put-down. The chains that hold them through the Cross ensure the curtailment of their advance, the limiting of their power and the curbing of their wicked design. Moreover, the authority bestowed upon the kingdom of God on the earth and the spread of the glorious Gospel of Christ to the nations reinforces the victory that has already been secured. The Gospel message now brings liberty to individuals, communities and nations that were once outside of Christ and hope and witnesses the ongoing relentless stripping of Satan’s empire as his grip over countless lives are eternally broken. Satan's control is demolished everywhere the kingdom triumphs - in the case of individuals, nations and peoples.

Paul

In Rev. 12 Satan is cast down from heaven to the earth and the saints must overcome by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony even unto death (verse 11). Clearly this depicts the intra-advent time.

“Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.” Rev. 12:12

This is supported further in the chapter where Satan is allowed by God to persecute the woman on the earth, and the remnant of her seed, “which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ” (verse 17).

We have a clear juxtaposition with chapter 20 where Satan is chained and bound and cast into the bottomless pit where he can’t deceive the nation for a thousand years. Moreover, the saints are depicted as secure for the thousand years and John draws from Ezekiel 38 that also supports this security of the saints.

“After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.” Ezekiel 38:8

It is precisely this camp of Israel, which has been dwelling safely on earth for some time according to Ezekiel, that Satan is released again to gather Gog, and Magog against (ch. 20:7-9).

Yet here again there is contrast with chapter 12 because Satan is allowed all the while to persecute the woman that represents the church, the saints, and her remnant seed. There is no abatement for the saints so long as Satan is free upon the earth in chapter 12. In the succeeding chapter Satan is allowed to elicit agents persecute and overcome the saints, and to deceive the nations in juxtaposition to chapter 20.

“And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority…. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him…” Rev. 13:2, 7-8

The events of chapters 12 and 13 are in complete contrast to the “time” and events depicted in chapter 20, obviously (at least to those WELL studied and have understanding) because chapter 20 does not depict the same “time” or events in 12. Chapter 20 is future in reference to the “time” depicted in chapters 12-19 and chapters 12-19 depict the intra-advent time that have continued since Christ’s first advent. Rhetoric simply doesn’t overcome proper exegesis.

Mike

Firstfruits
Jul 13th 2008, 10:32 AM
In Rev. 12 Satan is cast down from heaven to the earth and the saints must overcome by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony even unto death (verse 11). Clearly this depicts the intra-advent time.

“Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.” Rev. 12:12

This is supported further in the chapter where Satan is allowed by God to persecute the woman on the earth, and the remnant of her seed, “which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ” (verse 17).

We have a clear juxtaposition with chapter 20 where Satan is chained and bound and cast into the bottomless pit where he can’t deceive the nation for a thousand years. Moreover, the saints are depicted as secure for the thousand years and John draws from Ezekiel 38 that also supports this security of the saints.

“After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.” Ezekiel 38:8

It is this precisely this camp of Israel, which has been dwelling safely on earth for some time according to Ezekiel, that Satan is released again to gather Gog, and Magog against (ch. 20:7-9).

Yet here again there is contrast with chapter 12 because Satan is allowed all the while to persecute the woman that represents the church, the saints, and her remnant seed. There is no abatement for the saints so long as Satan is free upon the earth in chapter 12. In the succeeding chapter Satan is allowed to elicit agents persecute and overcome the saints, and to deceive the nations in juxtaposition to chapter 20.

“And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority…. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him…” Rev. 13:2, 7-8

The events of chapters 12 and 13 are in complete contrast to the “time” and events depicted in chapter 20, obviously (at least to those WELL studied and have understanding) because chapter 20 does not depict the same “time” or events in 12. Chapter 20 is future in reference to the “time” depicted in chapters 12-19 and chapters 12-19 depict the intra-advent time that have continued since Christ’s first advent. Rhetoric simply doesn’t overcome proper exegesis.

Mike

When do you expect Satan to resume deceiving the nations since the thousand years has expired? Not only one thousand years but two thousand years.

Rev 20:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Rev 20:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

When are you expection these events, as two millennium are expired?

Firstfruits

Clifton
Jul 13th 2008, 01:05 PM
So the events of the seventh trumpet happen both before and after the millennium?

Are the battles mentioned in Rev 16: and Rev. 19 not the same or does the beast and the false prophet gather the nations to battle the Lord more than once?

Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 16:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Rev 17:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 19:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 20:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Firstfruits

When we see the wholesome of the Bible, and as scriptures here and there show, there are “judgments” (per the English word) - There have been “judgments” before in the past, on races, nations, and individuals – so the catch is “rightly dividing” (as the term goes) out, because they are of different sorts. Take the Natzal (rapture) for example – obviously, there will be some kind of judgment (call it a pre-judgment if you wish) for ‘saints’ to be ‘caught up’ into the air to be with the Lord forever’. Then during the tribulation, ‘the birthpangs of the Messiah / the time of Jacob’s Trouble (Chevlai shel Mashiach/Ya'acov's trouble)’ there will be judgments. Where you center on in your question, I guess, is the ‘grand judgments’ – there will be a major one after the seven-year tribulation when Yeshua comes to earth. Then there will be the Athid Lavo (which you know as the “Millennium”), and there will be the final judgment, then the Olam Haba (the Eternal Abode). So, you have two ‘end-time’ grand judgments.

I am throwing the more ancient words like “Athid Lavo”, etc. in because I noted that when it comes to people searching the Internet with the commonly used English words, (e.g. “Millennium”), for their studies and research, the listings are vast and not always necessarily germane to what they wish to study and research (IOW, a lot of non-Biblical stuff, if not outright anti-Biblical stuff), so these more ancient words will tone down the listings dramatically – sometimes, depending upon the search phrase(s), down to just one page of listings – I see this as saving the users some time and not have to sift through so much. ;)

Blessings.

P.S. you mentioned “trumpets”. There are three primary “trumpets” and include idioms. Just as unfamiliar foreigners may be confused when they hear Americans call Thanksgiving Day, "Turkey Day" or "Pilgrims' Day," non-Jewish believers in Yeshua can be confused by the different terms;

These three primary trumpets (Shofarim) are known as
1) the first trump (Shofar),
2) the last trump, (Shofar)
3) and the great trumpet (Shofar HaGadol).

Shofarim is the plural form of Shofar, thus, Shofarim.

The last trump is associated with and is blown on Rosh HaShanahand is an idiom for that. The biblical name for Rosh HaShanah is Yom Teruah, which in Hebrew means "the day of the awakening blast." This trump (shofar) is mentioned by the apostle Paul in First Corinthians 15:51-53. Because “the last trump” is only blown on Rosh HaShanah and because the apostle Paul specifically mentions that the rapture (natzal) of the believers in Yeshua the Messiah will take place at “the last trump”, the apostle Paul was giving a clear understanding that the rapture of the believers in Messiah will happen on a Rosh HaShanah.

The great trump (shofar HaGadol) is associated with and is blown on Yom Kippur. Yeshua said that He would return at His second coming at the sound of the great trump (Matthew 24:30-31). Because the great trump (shofar HaGadol) is only blown on Yom Kippur and because Yeshua said that He would return with the sound of a great trump, Yeshua was stating very clearly that He would return on a Yom Kippur.

For the last trump, Rosh HaShanah, Yeshua does not “come down” to Earth yet, but only descends so far to “catch up” (into "the air") saints currently living and of those of the past. After the Tribulation, then will be the Great Trump (shofar HaGadol) when Yeshua comes to Earth again, for the second time, which is a stage of the Second Advent.

Time for breakfast… want some non-cholesterol Eggs? :D

Blessings.

michaeneu
Jul 13th 2008, 02:09 PM
When do you expect Satan to resume deceiving the nations since the thousand years has expired? Not only one thousand years but two thousand years.

Rev 20:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Rev 20:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

When are you expection these events, as two millennium are expired?

Firstfruits

Satan has been deceiving the nations even before the first advent.

“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Rev. 12:9

It would be hard to assert that this event is contemporary even with the first advent. The greatest expository would support that it is speaking of an event that predates Christ’s first advent because Satan was in the garden deceiving the world from that time on; he is prince of this world because of the event of the garden. Satan HAD BEEN deceiving the nations long before Christ and that is why the heathen kingdoms were his to temp Christ with during the forty day he fasted (Matthew 4:8-9). And yet the scriptures uphold that at being cast to the earth he is still able to elicit his agents to deceive the nation so that they worship him.

“And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority …. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?.... And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him…” Rev. 13:2, 4, 7-8

Note that Satan, also the Devil and the Dragon, elicits the beast(s) to deceive the nations and “make war with the saints, and to overcome them.” Yet here again we have contrast with chapter 20 because the saints are not overcome by Satan but the beloved city and camp are preserved from any harm (verses 9). Clearly, the saints are overcome in chapter 13 because it represents that intra-advent time that some must overcome unto death (Rev. 12:11) before they receive their reward depicted as the first resurrection in chapter 20, verse 4.

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” Rev. 20:4

In the verse above they have overcome the beast and have received their reward and made alive again to reign, while Satan is bound and cast into the bottomless pit and barred from deceiving the nations. Clearly this is future from the time we now live in because chapter 12 depicts our time that we must still overcome Satan and his beasts/agents through the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony—even unto death.

Mike

Firstfruits
Jul 13th 2008, 05:56 PM
When we see the wholesome of the Bible, and as scriptures here and there show, there are “judgments” (per the English word) - There have been “judgments” before in the past, on races, nations, and individuals – so the catch is “rightly dividing” (as the term goes) out, because they are of different sorts. Take the Natzal (rapture) for example – obviously, there will be some kind of judgment (call it a pre-judgment if you wish) for ‘saints’ to be ‘caught up’ into the air to be with the Lord forever’. Then during the tribulation, ‘the birthpangs of the Messiah / the time of Jacob’s Trouble (Chevlai shel Mashiach/Ya'acov's trouble)’ there will be judgments. Where you center on in your question, I guess, is the ‘grand judgments’ – there will be a major one after the seven-year tribulation when Yeshua comes to earth. Then there will be the Athid Lavo (which you know as the “Millennium”), and there will be the final judgment, then the Olam Haba (the Eternal Abode). So, you have two ‘end-time’ grand judgments.

I am throwing the more ancient words like “Athid Lavo”, etc. in because I noted that when it comes to people searching the Internet with the commonly used English words, (e.g. “Millennium”), for their studies and research, the listings are vast and not always necessarily germane to what they wish to study and research (IOW, a lot of non-Biblical stuff, if not outright anti-Biblical stuff), so these more ancient words will tone down the listings dramatically – sometimes, depending upon the search phrase(s), down to just one page of listings – I see this as saving the users some time and not have to sift through so much. ;)

Blessings.

P.S. you mentioned “trumpets”. There are three primary “trumpets” and include idioms. Just as unfamiliar foreigners may be confused when they hear Americans call Thanksgiving Day, "Turkey Day" or "Pilgrims' Day," non-Jewish believers in Yeshua can be confused by the different terms;

These three primary trumpets (Shofarim) are known as
1) the first trump (Shofar),
2) the last trump, (Shofar)
3) and the great trumpet (Shofar HaGadol).

Shofarim is the plural form of Shofar, thus, Shofarim.

The last trump is associated with and is blown on Rosh HaShanahand is an idiom for that. The biblical name for Rosh HaShanah is Yom Teruah, which in Hebrew means "the day of the awakening blast." This trump (shofar) is mentioned by the apostle Paul in First Corinthians 15:51-53. Because “the last trump” is only blown on Rosh HaShanah and because the apostle Paul specifically mentions that the rapture (natzal) of the believers in Yeshua the Messiah will take place at “the last trump”, the apostle Paul was giving a clear understanding that the rapture of the believers in Messiah will happen on a Rosh HaShanah.

The great trump (shofar HaGadol) is associated with and is blown on Yom Kippur. Yeshua said that He would return at His second coming at the sound of the great trump (Matthew 24:30-31). Because the great trump (shofar HaGadol) is only blown on Yom Kippur and because Yeshua said that He would return with the sound of a great trump, Yeshua was stating very clearly that He would return on a Yom Kippur.

For the last trump, Rosh HaShanah, Yeshua does not “come down” to Earth yet, but only descends so far to “catch up” (into "the air") saints currently living and of those of the past. After the Tribulation, then will be the Great Trump (shofar HaGadol) when Yeshua comes to Earth again, for the second time, which is a stage of the Second Advent.

Time for breakfast… want some non-cholesterol Eggs? :D

Blessings.

Thanks for the breakfast offer, I've had my low Cholesterol stuff already.

I was not sure about your answer regarding my question.

Are the battles mentioned in Rev 16: and Rev. 19 not the same or does the beast and the false prophet gather the nations to battle the Lord more than once?

Thanks!

Mograce2U
Jul 13th 2008, 05:56 PM
The feasts of the Lord were memorials given to the people of things that God had done for them. In those things there was a shadow of what was to come with Messiah. IOW Passover memorialized the Exodus which pictured the coming deliverance from Satan and sin and death. The first Passover was the event, the feast was only a memorial. The actual picture/prophecy of what was yet future was in the ORIGINAL event, not the shadow.

The feast of trumpets also points back to the story in Exodus 19 of when the people were called to meet with God at the foot of Mt. Sinai and heard God speak to them. These memorial trumpets continued for 10 days to the day of atonement. This call to hear God, was also prophesied by Moses of another Prophet who was to come (Deut 18:15+). The One who was bringing their atonement via the cross, was the One they would be required to hear. Again, the original event is what is prophetic.

The feast of tabernacles memorialized the period of the Exodus when the people were led by God in the wilderness 40 yrs. This feast was one of joy as the people remember when they served their King in their midst. Jesus' entrance into Jerusalem was hailed by the people who saw Him as their promised King, strewing the way with palm branches and shouting Hosanna. See the pattern?

Now when we get to the NT and hear that there is a last trump blown by an angel for Israel which sound signifies the resurrection of the dead; who do we think is supposed to hear it? While the sign for the living, is the city surrounded by armies - the sound of war. That was the signal for the saints to flee, which was to give them understanding that this other trumpet they did not "hear" with their ears, had accomplished its goal - the redemption of Israel. The marriage supper of the Lamb thus commenced, the kingdom has come and the Holy One of Israel dwells now in our midst, and saints have been brought into it ever since.

Jesus is the Manna sent from heaven by God to give the bread of life to all who look to Him:

(John 6:40-41 KJV) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. {41} The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

This was clearly meant to be accomplished in the 1st advent for those who saw His appearance.

What was it that Jesus first announced in Luke 4:19 after His 40 days in the wilderness? Was it not the year of Jubilee?

(Isa 61:1-2 KJV) The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; {2} To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

See too where the 2nd part of verse 2 fits:

(Luke 21:22 KJV) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

wpm
Jul 13th 2008, 10:46 PM
IYHO anyway, but not IMHO. :kiss:

I will prove it. First corroboration means direct explicit support.

1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" then destroyed?

2. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years?

3. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct future physical resurrections (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years?

Paul

wpm
Jul 13th 2008, 10:57 PM
“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Rev. 12:9

It would be hard to assert that this event is contemporary even with the first advent. The greatest expository would support that it is speaking of an event that predates Christ’s first advent because Satan was in the garden deceiving the world from that time on; he is prince of this world because of the event of the garden. Satan HAD BEEN deceiving the nations long before Christ and that is why the heathen kingdoms were his to temp Christ with during the forty day he fasted (Matthew 4:8-9). And yet the scriptures uphold that at being cast to the earth he is still able to elicit his agents to deceive the nation so that they worship him.


This is actually talking about the time that deceiver of the world was dethroned. This corresponds with the victory of the cross and the resurrection of Christ. Revelation 12 confirms that this victorious scene (described in Revelation 20) relates to Christ’s eternal victory at the Cross and His glorious ascent to the throne. A careful comparison of both passages confirms that they closely parallel and perfectly correlate with each other.

Revelation 12:9-13 says, speaking of the tremendous ramifications that Calvary had upon Satan, “the great dragon ‘was cast out’ (or ballo Strong’s 906), that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out (or ballo Strong’s 906) into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down (or ballo Strong’s 906), which accused them before our God day and night. And they (the Church of Jesus Christ) overcame him (the devil) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

Both passages chart the casting down of Satan from heaven in order to facilitate the global spread of the Gospel to the previously blinded nations. The term “cast out” is taken from the Greek word ballo meaning to eject, drive out or send away. This word gives us some idea of the deep lasting work that was wrought upon Satan as a result of the cross. This reading seems to strongly support the idea that the accusing place that Satan once held before Calvary has now been totally destroyed and his area of influence carefully restricted. Satan was effectively unseated from his former global deception over the Gentiles, allowing the Gospel to spread forth. Interestingly, this is the exact same word as is used in Revelation 20:3 to describe the restriction placed upon Satan from the cross. Revelation 20:3 says, “he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the abyss.”This word is also translated from the Greek word ballo (Strong’s 906).

In this reading we have an explicit outline of the nature and standing of the devil prior to his eviction from his accusing seat in heaven. At that time, he “accused” the elect of God in heaven “before our God day and night.” The accused here were overwhelmingly the Israeli believers – the only country privileged on a national scale with the Gospel. On earth, the devil ruled the Gentile nations unchallenged, deceiving “the whole world” (Revelation 12:9). The Gospel influence was completely curtailed among the nations by “the god of this world” (who is Satan) who “blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them” (2 Corinthians 4:4). The door of opportunity was tightly closed to the Gentile people. The reversal of this situation could not occur until Christ was first “caught up unto God, and to his throne” at the resurrection (Revelation 12:5). The above reading therefore confirms the powerful fulfilment and exact timing of Satan’s spiritual curtailment.

Moreover, it reveals the vast change that occurred through this occasion and demonstrates the great spiritual benefit that resulted in the darkened nations. The previous dark spiritual state of affairs that existed before Satan’s casting down, where he “deceiveth the whole world,” was now marvellously superseded, through Calvary and the victorious resurrection, enabling the evangelising of all nations. Notably, it was only at this particular stage that John bore testimony that he “heard a loud voice saying in heaven, now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night” (v. 10).



“And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority …. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?.... And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him…” Rev. 13:2, 4, 7-8

Note that Satan, also the Devil and the Dragon, elicits the beast(s) to deceive the nations and “make war with the saints, and to overcome them.” Yet here again we have contrast with chapter 20 because the saints are not overcome by Satan but the beloved city and camp are preserved from any harm (verses 9). Clearly, the saints are overcome in chapter 13 because it represents that intra-advent time that some must overcome unto death (Rev. 12:11) before they receive their reward depicted as the first resurrection in chapter 20, verse 4.

“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” Rev. 20:4

In the verse above they have overcome the beast and have received their reward and made alive again to reign, while Satan is bound and cast into the bottomless pit and barred from deceiving the nations. Clearly this is future from the time we now live in because chapter 12 depicts our time that we must still overcome Satan and his beasts/agents through the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony—even unto death.

Mike


I would relate this to Satan's little season at the end, just before the Coming of Christ. The time when the beast system is described as rising up relates to a season when God permits wickedness to prosper. It seems to refer to a particular period near the end that will see the notable rise of the nefarious nature in man.

This is seen in Revelation 13:1-4,“And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?”


Near the end of time, Satan and his influence will ascend out of its restrained state allowing the kingdom of darkness to again prosper among the nations (ethnos). The beast will be released from his restraints and his wounded head will be healed. He will exercise all his former evil over the nations in such a degree that ‘all the world will wonder after the beast’. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?”

The wound to the beast’s head heals up for the final onslaught of evil that will we Satan unleash his wickedness against the righteous and all righteousness. The restraints will be finally removed. The time will come when he will be released from his spiritual prison to deceive the Gentile nations again. This is when his wounded head will be healed. And the entire unsaved world will wonder after the beast. The head wound in this reading seems to signify the limitation of Satan’s authority. When the beast does finally arise he does so being empowered by Satan himself. The world wonders after this monster and gives allegiance to his master Satan. The world worships the devil.

The beast system is nothing new to this world neither is it restricted to the final few years preceding the Coming of the Lord, as some imagine. Whilst there is no doubt that the restraint holding back the debauchery of the beast will be taken off this wicked system at the end, it doesn’t negate the fact that it has existed from time immemorial. The beast (with its seven heads and ten horns) is a figure representing Satan's overall agenda and influence on earth throughout time. Every Christ-rejecter gives his allegiance, whether wantonly or not, to this evil empire.

Paul

quiet dove
Jul 14th 2008, 12:05 AM
I will prove it. First corroboration means direct explicit support.

1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" then destroyed?

2. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years?

3. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct future physical resurrections (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years?

Paul

I do not need but one passage to believe it. God wrote the Bible the way He wanted it, I didn't get a vote in that process.

1)Rev 20 states facts about the 1000 years, six times-
Good enough for me. Your opinion that you have the undisputed correct understanding is simply your opinion of your understanding.

2-3) 4...And they (beheaded souls) lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Rev 5 But the rest of the dead (ones who followed Beast) did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

We have already been over what first resurrection means, we disagree.
We have already been over the OT passages in question, related to a Millennial reign, we disagree. So no point in quoting them all back here again. For me, Revelation 20 stands by itself without them anyway. We have been through our disagreements on Rev 20.

Like I said, it is your understanding of scripture that claims to you, that you are correct, and that is as it should be. But it does not make that claim (or it prove) to me, just like mine does not make that claim (or prove it)to you.

BibleProphecy
Jul 14th 2008, 12:53 AM
All who are the church (1 Cor.10:32) throughout all ages (Eph.3:21) are in heaven at the Seventh TRUMPET (1Thess.4:16-17, 1 Cor.15:52, Re.10:7, Dan.12:7).

After the ascension this earth will go through the Seven Last PLAGUES (Re.15:1-8, Re.16:1).

The marriage of the Lamb will take place in heaven, and His wife (Re.19:7) will be the armies that accompany the Lord at the battle of Armageddon.

The Millennium begins directly AFTER the battle of Armageddon is fought.

During the Millennium (the thousand years) saints of the most High will judge the world (Dan.7:22, 1 Cor.6:2-3, Matt.19:27-28, Re.20:4 below).

The first resurrection (Re.20:5 below) and the second death (Re.2:11, Re.20:6, Re.20:14, Re.21:8) occur AFTER the Millennium.


Dan.7:22 Until the Ancient of days (Dan.7:13) came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High (1 Cor.6:2-3, Re.15:3); and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom (Dan.7:18).

1 Cor.6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world (Dan.7:22 above, 1 Cor.1:2)? and if the world shall be judged by YOU, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Cor.6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


Matt.19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? Matt.19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Re.20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them (Dan.7:22, 1 Cor.6:2-3 above): and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Re.20:5 But THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. This is the first resurrection.

Re.20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books (plural) were opened: and ANOTHER book (singular) was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were JUDGED out of those things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS (Re.20:13 below).

Re.20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (the grave - Jn.5:28 below) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works (Re.20:12 above, Matt.16:27 below, Re.22:12).

Dan.12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth (Ps.146:4, Job 7:9-10) shall awake, some to everlasting life (Dan.7:10 below), and some to shame and everlasting contempt (Jn.5:28-29 below) .

Jn.5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves (Ps.146:4) shall hear his voice (Heb.12:25),

Jn.5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (Dan.12:2 above).

Matt.16:27 For the Son of man (Dan.7:13) shall come in the glory of his Father (Re.21:22) with his angels; and then he shall reward every man ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS (Re.20:12-13 above).

Dan.7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands (1,000,000) ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand (100,000,000) stood before him; THE JUDGMENT WAS SET (decided), and the books (plural) were opened (Re.20:12 above).


Patricia

wpm
Jul 14th 2008, 04:16 AM
I do not need but one passage to believe it. God wrote the Bible the way He wanted it, I didn't get a vote in that process.

1)Rev 20 states facts about the 1000 years, six times-
Good enough for me. Your opinion that you have the undisputed correct understanding is simply your opinion of your understanding.

2-3) 4...And they (beheaded souls) lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Rev 5 But the rest of the dead (ones who followed Beast) did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

We have already been over what first resurrection means, we disagree.
We have already been over the OT passages in question, related to a Millennial reign, we disagree. So no point in quoting them all back here again. For me, Revelation 20 stands by itself without them anyway. We have been through our disagreements on Rev 20.

Like I said, it is your understanding of scripture that claims to you, that you are correct, and that is as it should be. But it does not make that claim (or it prove) to me, just like mine does not make that claim (or prove it)to you.

This highlights the weakness of Premil: You use Rev 20 to support your opinion of Rev 20. This is not good exegesis. I repeat: Premil enjoys no corroboration for its 1,000 yrs theory. It forces a meaning on Rev 20 that totally and repeatedly contradicts clear and explicit Scripture that shows the righteous and the wicked being resurrected and judged at the same time.

Paul

Raybob
Jul 14th 2008, 05:37 AM
This highlights the weakness of Premil: You use Rev 20 to support your opinion of Rev 20. This is not good exegesis. I repeat: Premil enjoys no corroboration for its 1,000 yrs theory. It forces a meaning on Rev 20 that totally and repeatedly contradicts clear and explicit Scripture that shows the righteous and the wicked being resurrected and judged at the same time.

Paul

AMEN!:agree: I love the plain words of Jesus in speaking of His return. Any other explanation would mean Jesus wasn't telling the truth and we know that can't be.

Joh 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Mat 25:31-46 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ... Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Raybob

Merton
Jul 14th 2008, 07:23 AM
This highlights the weakness of Premil: You use Rev 20 to support your opinion of Rev 20. This is not good exegesis. I repeat: Premil enjoys no corroboration for its 1,000 yrs theory. It forces a meaning on Rev 20 that totally and repeatedly contradicts clear and explicit Scripture that shows the righteous and the wicked being resurrected and judged at the same time.

Paul

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and Isaw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


There are two resurrections from the dead in Rev.20 separated by the thousand years.

The second resurrection is to the last judgment of all men who are not in the first resurrection. This was preached throughout the bible to all men.

The first resurrection out from among the dead was only preached to the saved.

Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection (out from among)of the dead.
Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

JFB--

Phi 3:11 - If by any means--not implying uncertainty of the issue, but the earnestness of the struggle of faith (1Co_9:26-27), and the urgent need of jealous self-watchfulness (1Co_10:12).
attain unto the resurrection of the dead--The oldest manuscripts read, "the resurrection from (out of) the dead," namely, the first resurrection; that of believers at Christ's coming (1Co_15:23; 1Th_4:15; Rev_20:5-6). The Greek word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. "The power of Christ's resurrection" (Rom_1:4), ensures the believer's attainment of the "resurrection from the (rest of the) dead" (compare Phi_3:20-21). Compare "accounted worthy to obtain the resurrection from the dead" (Luk_20:35). "The resurrection of the just" (Luk_14:14).


Merton.

michaeneu
Jul 14th 2008, 01:59 PM
This is actually talking about the time that deceiver of the world was dethroned. This corresponds with the victory of the cross and the resurrection of Christ. Revelation 12 confirms that this victorious scene (described in Revelation 20) relates to Christ’s eternal victory at the Cross and His glorious ascent to the throne. A careful comparison of both passages confirms that they closely parallel and perfectly correlate with each other.

Revelation 12:9-13 says, speaking of the tremendous ramifications that Calvary had upon Satan, “the great dragon ‘was cast out’ (or ballo Strong’s 906), that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out (or ballo Strong’s 906) into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down (or ballo Strong’s 906), which accused them before our God day and night. And they (the Church of Jesus Christ) overcame him (the devil) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

Both passages chart the casting down of Satan from heaven in order to facilitate the global spread of the Gospel to the previously blinded nations. The term “cast out” is taken from the Greek word ballo meaning to eject, drive out or send away. This word gives us some idea of the deep lasting work that was wrought upon Satan as a result of the cross. This reading seems to strongly support the idea that the accusing place that Satan once held before Calvary has now been totally destroyed and his area of influence carefully restricted. Satan was effectively unseated from his former global deception over the Gentiles, allowing the Gospel to spread forth. Interestingly, this is the exact same word as is used in Revelation 20:3 to describe the restriction placed upon Satan from the cross. Revelation 20:3 says, “he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the abyss.”This word is also translated from the Greek word ballo (Strong’s 906).

In this reading we have an explicit outline of the nature and standing of the devil prior to his eviction from his accusing seat in heaven. At that time, he “accused” the elect of God in heaven “before our God day and night.” The accused here were overwhelmingly the Israeli believers – the only country privileged on a national scale with the Gospel. On earth, the devil ruled the Gentile nations unchallenged, deceiving “the whole world” (Revelation 12:9). The Gospel influence was completely curtailed among the nations by “the god of this world” (who is Satan) who “blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them” (2 Corinthians 4:4). The door of opportunity was tightly closed to the Gentile people. The reversal of this situation could not occur until Christ was first “caught up unto God, and to his throne” at the resurrection (Revelation 12:5). The above reading therefore confirms the powerful fulfilment and exact timing of Satan’s spiritual curtailment.

Moreover, it reveals the vast change that occurred through this occasion and demonstrates the great spiritual benefit that resulted in the darkened nations. The previous dark spiritual state of affairs that existed before Satan’s casting down, where he “deceiveth the whole world,” was now marvellously superseded, through Calvary and the victorious resurrection, enabling the evangelising of all nations. Notably, it was only at this particular stage that John bore testimony that he “heard a loud voice saying in heaven, now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night” (v. 10).

Is this an attempt to uphold that Satan was seated upon Yahweh’s throne before the cross? I would be careful here! Domain, domain and more domain—that is the question!





I would relate this to Satan's little season at the end, just before the Coming of Christ. The time when the beast system is described as rising up relates to a season when God permits wickedness to prosper. It seems to refer to a particular period near the end that will see the notable rise of the nefarious nature in man.

This is seen in Revelation 13:1-4,“And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?”


Near the end of time, Satan and his influence will ascend out of its restrained state allowing the kingdom of darkness to again prosper among the nations (ethnos). The beast will be released from his restraints and his wounded head will be healed. He will exercise all his former evil over the nations in such a degree that ‘all the world will wonder after the beast’. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?”

The wound to the beast’s head heals up for the final onslaught of evil that will we Satan unleash his wickedness against the righteous and all righteousness. The restraints will be finally removed. The time will come when he will be released from his spiritual prison to deceive the Gentile nations again. This is when his wounded head will be healed. And the entire unsaved world will wonder after the beast. The head wound in this reading seems to signify the limitation of Satan’s authority. When the beast does finally arise he does so being empowered by Satan himself. The world wonders after this monster and gives allegiance to his master Satan. The world worships the devil.

The beast system is nothing new to this world neither is it restricted to the final few years preceding the Coming of the Lord, as some imagine. Whilst there is no doubt that the restraint holding back the debauchery of the beast will be taken off this wicked system at the end, it doesn’t negate the fact that it has existed from time immemorial. The beast (with its seven heads and ten horns) is a figure representing Satan's overall agenda and influence on earth throughout time. Every Christ-rejecter gives his allegiance, whether wantonly or not, to this evil empire.

Paul

Problem with this view is that the beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire before Satan’s rampage in Revelation 20.

“And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” Rev. 20:9-10

It is at this time that Satan is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet were during the 1000 years! They were already in the lake of fire before Satan was released again. Yet it was the Devil, and the beast, and the false prophet that were active on earth and gathered forces to fight against Christ at his return depicted in the previous chapters.

“And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.” Rev. 16:13-14

“And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.” Rev. 19:19-20

Again we have contrast between 19 and 20 because they do not depict the same time; there is no fold-over, or recapitulation or etc. and etc. Chapter twenty is future in reference to the previous chapters because the previous chapter depicts the intra-advent age, while chapter twenty depicts the time afterwards, the millennial reign of the saints and Christ.

Mike

John146
Jul 14th 2008, 02:12 PM
AMEN!:agree: I love the plain words of Jesus in speaking of His return. Any other explanation would mean Jesus wasn't telling the truth and we know that can't be.

Joh 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Mat 25:31-46 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ... Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

RaybobI believe those two passages alone prove amil to be correct. What we see clearly taught in those two passages is that all the dead, including both the saved and the lost, will be raised at the same time when Jesus returns and then will be judged. The sequence of events is spelled out plainly. Jesus returns, the dead hear His voice and are raised, and then people are gathered and separated into two groups with one group being rewarded with entry into God's eternal kingdom and the other being cast into everlasting fire. This makes two judgments and two physical resurrections of the dead separated by a thousand plus years impossible. We'd have to throw those two passages (and many more) out in order for the premil theory to stay afloat.

John146
Jul 14th 2008, 02:20 PM
Problem with this view is that the beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire before Satan’s rampage in Revelation 20.

“And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” Rev. 20:9-10

It is at this time that Satan is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet were during the 1000 years! They were already in the lake of fire before Satan was released again.It doesn't say anywhere that the beast and false prophet were in the lake of fire before Satan is released again. It only says that they are also there when Satan is cast there. It doesn't say how long they have been there at that point. Your chronological method of interpretation tells you that they had been there for over a thousand years, but the text itself makes no such claim.

David Taylor
Jul 14th 2008, 02:22 PM
Again we have contrast between 19 and 20 because they do not depict the same time; there is no fold-over, or recapitulation or etc. and etc. Chapter twenty is future in reference to the previous chapters because the previous chapter depicts the intra-advent age, while chapter twenty depicts the time afterwards, the millennial reign of the saints and Christ.

Mike


Only the latter part of Chapter 20 is future in reference.

vs 1-3 are past/present:
The binding of satan from deceiving the gentiles occurred in the 1st century A.D. when Christ defeated Satan, bound him, and began to spoil his goods; when the people who were in darkness began to see the great Light of Christ for the first time in masse.


vs 4-6 are past/present/and future; spanning the entire NT era:
Showing the saints in Heaven past, prsently, and future reigning with Christ following their deaths; awaiting the final judgment.


vs 7-15 are the only verses that are future in reference.

vinsight4u8
Jul 14th 2008, 02:28 PM
Chapter 19 of Rev. begins a new section of flows in order events.

"And after these things..."

/meaning to drop that last part and now think about this

Rev. 19 opens at the start of salvation, so it is time for Jesus Christ to appear and take down the wicked city that slew the trib martyrs,

as in mystery, Babylon

so the church is in heaven for the marriage by v 7 and gets her saints garments

the same people come on horses later
(wearing those saints garments)
)as more than one army

Why?
Because the trib martyrs from the marriage get put into one - lived and will reign army all by themselves.

The other army - has yet to defeat the beast = has then the right to reign with Christ.

as in
lived
defeated the beast at Armageddon
reigned

Chaper 20 keeps that smooth flow going and tells us what happens to the ones from the battle that Jesus didn't slay with the sword of His mouth.

Satan gets bound
for a thousand years

"they"
/Must be speaking of the they that took down the beast at the Rev. 19 battle.

"they" take thrones to reign

michaeneu
Jul 14th 2008, 02:47 PM
It doesn't say anywhere that the beast and false prophet were in the lake of fire before Satan is released again. It only says that they are also there when Satan is cast there. It doesn't say how long they have been there at that point. Your chronological method of interpretation tells you that they had been there for over a thousand years, but the text itself makes no such claim.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Chapter twenty clearly states that Satan is released after 1000 years to reek havoc and “then” cast into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet are! Yet in chapter 19 Satan is not cast into the lake of fire while the beast and false prophet are. Where is Satan during this time and why even intrude with the characterization of his being bound for 1000 years if it there is not an interim between his being spared the lake of fire while the beast and false prophet aren’t. We are given a natural flow to the events but Amillennialism distorts them.

Mike

John146
Jul 14th 2008, 02:52 PM
Chapter twenty clearly states that Satan is released after 1000 years to reek havoc and “then” cast into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet are! Yet in chapter 19 Satan is not cast into the lake of fire while the beast and false prophet are. Where is Satan during this time and why even intrude with the characterization of his being bound for 1000 years if it there is not an interim between his being spared the lake of fire while the beast and false prophet aren’t. We are given a natural flow to the events but Amillennialism distorts them.

MikeAh. I suppose you believe what is described in Revelation 12 must follow what is described in Revelation 11, too? Which would mean the birth of Christ happened after the seventh trumpet. :eek:

michaeneu
Jul 14th 2008, 02:59 PM
Only the latter part of Chapter 20 is future in reference.

vs 1-3 are past/present:
The binding of satan from deceiving the gentiles occurred in the 1st century A.D. when Christ defeated Satan, bound him, and began to spoil his goods; when the people who were in darkness began to see the great Light of Christ for the first time in masse.


vs 4-6 are past/present/and future; spanning the entire NT era:
Showing the saints in Heaven past, prsently, and future reigning with Christ following their deaths; awaiting the final judgment.


vs 7-15 are the only verses that are future in reference.

Satan is not bound from deceiving the nations at this time according to the Revelation, for at the time that Satan is cast down to the earth we must overcome by the blood of the lamb and the testimony even unto death, which represents the intra-advent time (Rev.12). During the same time Satan elicits the beast and Yahweh allows it to overcome the saints and deceive the nations into worshiping him (Ch. 13). In contrast in Ch. 20 John draws on Ezekiel 38 to support that the saints have been brought back from the sword and are reigning and NEVER overcome again as Yahweh prevents any harm to them. There is contrast because chapter 20 is future to chapters 12-19.

Mike

michaeneu
Jul 14th 2008, 03:07 PM
Ah. I suppose you believe what is described in Revelation 12 must follow what is described in Revelation 11, too? Which would mean the birth of Christ happened after the seventh trumpet. :eek:

Never stated that there wasn’t recapitulation and parenthetical interludes in the Revelation, only that chapters 12-19 is past in reference to chapter 20. Are you attempting to uphold that every verse recapitulates the previous one?
Mike

John146
Jul 14th 2008, 03:52 PM
Never stated that there wasn’t recapitulation and parenthetical interludes in the Revelation, only that chapters 12-19 are future to chapter 20. Are you attempting to uphold that every verse recapitulates the previous one?
MikeSo you acknowledge that there are recapitulations and parenthetical interludes in Revelation. That's good. It is then up to each of us to determine which passages are recapitulations and parenthetical interludes and which aren't. We obviously don't agree regarding Revelation 20. It does start out saying "And I saw...", which indicates to me that he is seeing another new vision.

michaeneu
Jul 14th 2008, 04:42 PM
So you acknowledge that there are recapitulations and parenthetical interludes in Revelation. That's good. It is then up to each of us to determine which passages are recapitulations and parenthetical interludes and which aren't. We obviously don't agree regarding Revelation 20. It does start out saying "And I saw...", which indicates to me that he is seeing another new vision.

Ah-huh! Nevertheless, in chapter 19 Satan is not cast into the lake of fire while the beast and false prophet are. Where is Satan during this time and why even intrude with the characterization of his being bound for 1000 years if it there is not an interim between his being spared the lake of fire while the beast and false prophet aren’t? We are given a natural flow to the events and Amillennialism doesn’t reconcile them with recapitulation. Chapters 12-19 are past in reference to ch. 20

Mike

John146
Jul 14th 2008, 04:52 PM
Ah-huh! Nevertheless, in chapter 19 Satan is not cast into the lake of fire while the beast and false prophet are.I'm sure you know that not every passage that relates to the second coming of Christ has all the same details. The absence of a certain detail does not mean that it doesn't occur at that time. For example, the gathering of the elect is not mentioned specifically in Revelation 19. Should we then conclude that Revelation 19:15-21 is not related to Matthew 24:30-31?


Where is Satan during this time and why even intrude with the characterization of his being bound for 1000 years if it there is not an interim between his being spared the lake of fire while the beast and false prophet aren’t? We are given a natural flow to the events and Amillennialism doesn’t reconcile them with recapitulation. Chapters 12-19 are past in reference to ch. 20

MikeIn my view he is right there before God's throne about to be cast into the lake of fire with them. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this for now.

Firstfruits
Jul 14th 2008, 07:43 PM
I'm sure you know that not every passage that relates to the second coming of Christ has all the same details. The absence of a certain detail does not mean that it doesn't occur at that time. For example, the gathering of the elect is not mentioned specifically in Revelation 19. Should we then conclude that Revelation 19:15-21 is not related to Matthew 24:30-31?

In my view he is right there before God's throne about to be cast into the lake of fire with them. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this for now.

Hi Eric,

you are probably already aware of the following being the same event but that the Dragon the beast and the false prophet are not always mentioned even though we know it is the same event.

Rev 16:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 16:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Rev 20:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 17:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

God bless you!

Michael

John146
Jul 14th 2008, 08:21 PM
Hi Eric,

you are probably already aware of the following being the same event but that the Dragon the beast and the false prophet are not always mentioned even though we know it is the same event.

Rev 16:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev 19:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 16:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Rev 20:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 17:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

God bless you!

MichaelYep. That's part of the reason why I'm an amillennialist, because I see parallels and recapitulations in Revelation. I see each of those passages you listed as all referring to the same war. And it's a spiritual war.

wpm
Jul 14th 2008, 10:11 PM
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and Isaw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


There are two resurrections from the dead in Rev.20 separated by the thousand years.

The second resurrection is to the last judgment of all men who are not in the first resurrection. This was preached throughout the bible to all men.

The first resurrection out from among the dead was only preached to the saved.

Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection (out from among)of the dead.
Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

JFB--

Phi 3:11 - If by any means--not implying uncertainty of the issue, but the earnestness of the struggle of faith (1Co_9:26-27), and the urgent need of jealous self-watchfulness (1Co_10:12).
attain unto the resurrection of the dead--The oldest manuscripts read, "the resurrection from (out of) the dead," namely, the first resurrection; that of believers at Christ's coming (1Co_15:23; 1Th_4:15; Rev_20:5-6). The Greek word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. "The power of Christ's resurrection" (Rom_1:4), ensures the believer's attainment of the "resurrection from the (rest of the) dead" (compare Phi_3:20-21). Compare "accounted worthy to obtain the resurrection from the dead" (Luk_20:35). "The resurrection of the just" (Luk_14:14).


Merton.

The first resurrection that secured our salvation and consequently our victory over the "second death" was Christ's resurrection. Acts 26:23 describes Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be protos ek anastasis nekros (or) the first resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles (ethnos Strong’s 1484)."

We should note in this passage, the enlightening of the Gentiles (or) ethnos is carefully connected to the first resurrection of Christ. It is only through this powerful event that the deception that smothered the Gentiles was lifted. Moreover, the binding of Satan is expressly connected to the enlightenment of the Gentiles (or) ethnos. The Amil understanding of "the first resurrection" can only be understood “in Christ.” The spiritual resurrection that a sinner realises upon conversion is only realised in "the first resurrection" of Christ. Our second physical resurrection is also procured through the victory of "the first resurrection" of Christ. A Christian is raised from the grave of his sin in this life solely on the grounds of Christ’s first resurrection.

Luke 24:46-47 is very interesting as it describes the Lord’s appearance to His disciples after the resurrection. Here He speaks to them and explains the significance of the resurrection, saying, “Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations (ethnos), beginning at Jerusalem.”

Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn prootótokos (Strong’s 4416) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

This passage, which is clearly referring to Christ’s physical resurrection, describes Christ’s status after triumphing over death and the grave as the prootótokos or put another way first begotten from the dead. This was the first resurrection that the believer enters into upon salvation. Christ is “the head” we are “the body.” There spiritually we are identified within in salvation. We live because He conquered the grave. This is a spiritual reality that John is speaking of in Revelation 20. This is indeed the first resurrection from the grave.

Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten prootótokos (Strong’s 4416) of the dead,and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

Since Christ has conquered the grave for His redeemed, they can now walk in the fullness of the resurrection life.

Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ egeégertai (or) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

Paul

wpm
Jul 14th 2008, 10:16 PM
michaeneu


Is this an attempt to uphold that Satan was seated upon Yahweh’s throne before the cross? I would be careful here! Domain, domain and more domain—that is the question!

He had a place of accusation before the throne of God which he lost at the resurrection.


Problem with this view is that the beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire before Satan’s rampage in Revelation 20.

That is only a problem if you take a chronological approach to Revelation which I don't. Rev 20 is the last of 7 parallels.

Paul

Raybob
Jul 14th 2008, 10:32 PM
There are two resurrections from the dead in Rev.20 separated by the thousand years.

The second resurrection is to the last judgment of all men who are not in the first resurrection. This was preached throughout the bible to all men.

The first resurrection out from among the dead was only preached to the saved.


Merton,
You know that first resurrection is a past event for every saved person, even from the OT times.

Mat 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, (53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

That was clearly a past tense event that symbolizes that first resurrection unless you like to tear out those two verses from your bible. What would you call that resurrection if it wasn't the first????

Raybob

cwb
Jul 14th 2008, 10:37 PM
Merton,
You know that first resurrection is a past event for every saved person, even from the OT times.

Mat 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, (53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

That was clearly a past tense event that symbolizes that first resurrection unless you like to tear out those two verses from your bible. What would you call that resurrection if it wasn't the first????

Raybob

Unless it is speaking about the first resurrection after the return of Christ.

wpm
Jul 14th 2008, 10:42 PM
Unless it is speaking about the first resurrection after the return of Christ.

Please refer to the passages I quoted above that show Christ is the first resurrection.

Paul

Clifton
Jul 14th 2008, 11:11 PM
Rev 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

I'm so glad I spotted you quoting that verse, which is on my "things to do" list so I know your reading of the verse, so when I get to it, I can answer one of your questions - I was going to first ask you what your Bible(s) state for that Revelation 16:16... "Armageddon", eh? That is not a Hollywood invented term? :D Actually, I see the same term in the NAB Bible.;)

Well, let's see if we can't relate where the term is found, in at least one place in the Tanak (Hebrew Scriptures), but first, a look at Revelation 16:16:
And he shall gather them to the place called, in Hebrew, “Megiddo”. -Revelation 16:16
If you wish to see how the term correlates in the Hebrew Scriptures in your Bible version(s), check out Zechariah 12:11. That one, and the one for Revelation 16:16 are one in the same, at least as far as identity goes:
“In that day the mourning in Yerushalayim is going to be great, like the mourning at Haḏaḏ Rimmon in the valley of Meḡiddo. -Zechariah 12:11
Now sometimes there are spelling variations. A couple of of them are spelled as “Megiddon" or "Mageddon".


MichaelAre you the Archangel Michael? :P

Birkhot (Blessings).

michaeneu
Jul 15th 2008, 01:01 AM
I'm sure you know that not every passage that relates to the second coming of Christ has all the same details. The absence of a certain detail does not mean that it doesn't occur at that time. For example, the gathering of the elect is not mentioned specifically in Revelation 19. Should we then conclude that Revelation 19:15-21 is not related to Matthew 24:30-31?

In my view he is right there before God's throne about to be cast into the lake of fire with them. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this for now.

But the gathering of the elect IS mentioned in Rev. 19; that would be the bride and the great multitude, albeit in cryptic notation. They are the ones depicted in the first heaven arrayed in linen, clean and white, and they are his accompanying army in the first heaven (1 Thess. 4:16-18) in verse 14.

In contrast in Ch. 20 the camp of the saints is on the breadth of the earth, and John draws from Ezekiel 38 to portray them as dwelling safely in a “land of unwalled villages”, “dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates” "many days". This happens to be the same description of the eschatological consummation of Zion in Isaiah.

“And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought. For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.” Isaiah 60:10-12

Again, contrast! The saints meet Christ in clouds/heaven to war with and defeat the Devil, the beast and the false prophet in 19 before they touch the earth, but the city, camp of the saints is upon the breadth of the earth in 20, where they are defended by fire raining down from heaven. And then Satan is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet have been the whole 1000 years. Recapitulation completely fails in any reconciliation between ch. 12-19 and ch. 20.

Mike

michaeneu
Jul 15th 2008, 01:04 AM
michaeneu



He had a place of accusation before the throne of God which he lost at the resurrection.



That is only a problem if you take a chronological approach to Revelation which I don't. Rev 20 is the last of 7 parallels.

Paul

See my post to John146.

michaeneu
Jul 15th 2008, 01:39 AM
Are you the Archangel Michael? :P

Birkhot (Blessings).

Hey Clifton,

Have a good day.

Mike

Raybob
Jul 15th 2008, 03:25 AM
Unless it is speaking about the first resurrection after the return of Christ.

The first resurrection is when a person, dead in sins and trespasses, is brought to life by the renewing work of the Holy Spirit when one's sins are washed away. When Christ returns, everyone is resurrected. :pp

Joh 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Raybob

Merton
Jul 15th 2008, 04:15 AM
Merton,
You know that first resurrection is a past event for every saved person, even from the OT times.

Mat 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, (53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

That was clearly a past tense event that symbolizes that first resurrection unless you like to tear out those two verses from your bible. What would you call that resurrection if it wasn't the first????

Raybob


Yes Raybob,

tear them out, they are insertions.

No one was resurrected and standing in their graves for 3 days until Christ was resurrected.

If men rose from the dead in those days and were seen by many then there would be testimony of it, but there is not.

God did not allow attention to be drawn away from His Sons resurrection.



The verses are rubbish.


Merton.

Merton
Jul 15th 2008, 04:26 AM
The first resurrection is when a person, dead in sins and trespasses, is brought to life by the renewing work of the Holy Spirit when one's sins are washed away. When Christ returns, everyone is resurrected. :pp

Joh 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Raybob


The people of the first resurrection in Rev.ch 20 were martyred before their resurrection.

Thus it speaks of the martyrs bodily resurrection from the dead at Christs return to raise them.

No believer is resurrected upon their conversion to Christ when mortal.

The best that can be said is that the mortal believer lives by the life of the resurrected Christ through faith.

If the believer himself is resurrected in some way then he/she is not suitable for this mortal body.

Christ totally died at the cross and was totally resurrected but if you have your spirit resurrected before your total resurrection then not even Christ did that.



Merton.

Raybob
Jul 15th 2008, 05:04 AM
The people of the first resurrection in Rev.ch 20 were martyred before their resurrection.

Thus it speaks of the martyrs bodily resurrection from the dead at Christs return to raise them.

Merton, re-read Rev. 20 and you will see all the saints are shown. True some of them are martyrs but there have been martyrs ever since at least Steven of Acts 7. Clearly, not every one sitting on a throne was a martyr unless I don't understand the meaning of the word "and".


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You can go ahead and tear verses out of your bible but I believe the following to be true:

2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Raybob

quiet dove
Jul 15th 2008, 05:40 AM
Mat 27:52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

No one was resurrected before Christ, though I have to agree that first resurrection does not refer to our spiritual rebirth through Christ.

Merton
Jul 15th 2008, 06:56 AM
Merton, re-read Rev. 20 and you will see all the saints are shown. True some of them are martyrs but there have been martyrs ever since at least Steven of Acts 7. Clearly, not every one sitting on a throne was a martyr unless I don't understand the meaning of the word "and".


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You can go ahead and tear verses out of your bible but I believe the following to be true:

2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Raybob


Yes there is room in the verse for others than martyrs but their resurrection still followed upon their deaths, for they lived and reigned after their martydom for the word of God, which is not a description of conversion.

Merton.

Firstfruits
Jul 15th 2008, 09:15 AM
I'm so glad I spotted you quoting that verse, which is on my "things to do" list so I know your reading of the verse, so when I get to it, I can answer one of your questions - I was going to first ask you what your Bible(s) state for that Revelation 16:16... "Armageddon", eh? That is not a Hollywood invented term? :D Actually, I see the same term in the NAB Bible.;)

Well, let's see if we can't relate where the term is found, in at least one place in the Tanak (Hebrew Scriptures), but first, a look at Revelation 16:16:

And he shall gather them to the place called, in Hebrew, “Megiddo”. -Revelation 16:16
If you wish to see how the term correlates in the Hebrew Scriptures in your Bible version(s), check out Zechariah 12:11. That one, and the one for Revelation 16:16 are one in the same, at least as far as identity goes:

“In that day the mourning in Yerushalayim is going to be great, like the mourning at Haḏaḏ Rimmon in the valley of Meḡiddo. -Zechariah 12:11
Now sometimes there are spelling variations. A couple of of them are spelled as “Megiddon" or "Mageddon".

Are you the Archangel Michael? :P

Birkhot (Blessings).

So with regards to what is written in Revelation concerning Armageddon and what is written in Zechariah being one event, would you say that unless that event is repeated that it is the same event as the following?

Rev 20:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=20&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Who am I?

(1 Cor 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.) At least trying.

God bless you!

Michael (Firstfruits)

vinsight4u8
Jul 15th 2008, 01:33 PM
Ah. I suppose you believe what is described in Revelation 12 must follow what is described in Revelation 11, too? Which would mean the birth of Christ happened after the seventh trumpet. :eek:

So what do you think came next after ch 11?

Would chapter 16 seem to fit?
Yes!
Perfectly!


Ch 11 ends with what?

Look at ch 4 as to lightnings and Rev. 8 same thing - similar stuff all going on, and once those things happen, what came next?

lightnings thunderings get followed by what?

So Rev. 11:19 should be followed by?

Firstfruits
Jul 15th 2008, 01:42 PM
So what do you think came next after ch 11?

Would chapter 16 seem to fit?
Yes!
Perfectly!


Ch 11 ends with what?

Look at ch 4 as to lightnings and Rev. 8 same thing - similar stuff all going on and once those things happen what came next?

lightnings thunderings gets followed by what?

So Rev. 11:19 should be followed by?

Don't both the events end with the final plague?

Rev 11:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Not forgetting that judgment is at the seventh trumpet.

Firstfruits

vinsight4u8
Jul 15th 2008, 01:53 PM
Don't both the events end with the final plague?

Rev 11:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Not forgetting that judgment is at the seventh trumpet.

Firstfruits

Notice that in ch 4 - no plague is mentioned. In Rev. 8 - earthquake ends the time of plagues, and Rev 11: 19 shows great hail will fall at another time of plagues coming to an end.


The verse you gave - Rev. 11:19 mentions the temple opens in heaven, okay then consider what John told you at the end of ch 15?

the temple was closed to men
till???

At the 7th trumpet - certain events begin to unfold and the temple in heaven opens.
But John doesn't yet see men in it.
They are not yet sitting about the throne and reigning.

The temple in heaven opens and then soon John writes to us about a list of stuff to come - even great hail. John is giving the list announced as to what it will take to end the next set of plagues.

John146
Jul 15th 2008, 02:55 PM
But the gathering of the elect IS mentioned in Rev. 19; that would be the bride and the great multitude, albeit in cryptic notation. They are the ones depicted in the first heaven arrayed in linen, clean and white, and they are his accompanying army in the first heaven (1 Thess. 4:16-18) in verse 14. But Rev 19 does not mention the gathering of the elect from all over the earth (Mark 13 mentions that while Matthew 24 and Luke 21 do not), so does that mean Mark 13:26-27 and Revelation 19 are not related? Of course not. I'm sure you see my point. Using this kind of argument is not valid.


In contrast in Ch. 20 the camp of the saints is on the breadth of the earth, and John draws from Ezekiel 38 to portray them as dwelling safely in a “land of unwalled villages”, “dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates” "many days". This happens to be the same description of the eschatological consummation of Zion in Isaiah.

“And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought. For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.” Isaiah 60:10-12

Again, contrast! The saints meet Christ in clouds/heaven to war with and defeat the Devil, the beast and the false prophet in 19 before they touch the earth, but the city, camp of the saints is upon the breadth of the earth in 20, where they are defended by fire raining down from heaven. And then Satan is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet have been the whole 1000 years. Recapitulation completely fails in any reconciliation between ch. 12-19 and ch. 20. Nice theory, but I'm certainly not seeing what you're seeing from that text. You certainly did not do anything here to prove that "Recapitulation completely fails in any reconciliation between ch. 12-19 and ch. 20.".

John146
Jul 15th 2008, 03:09 PM
So what do you think came next after ch 11?

Would chapter 16 seem to fit?
Yes!
Perfectly!In your mind, I guess. But I'm not seeing that. Instead, I see parallels. I believe the seventh vial is poured out immediately after the seventh trumpet sounds. The final wrath of God is said to have arrived at the seventh trumpet. Also, the seventh trumpet is "the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints". So, the day of judgment arrives when the seventh trumpet sounds as well. In Revelation 10:7 it tells us that when the seventh angel sounds his trumpet "the mystery of God should be finished". The seventh trumpet clearly signals a climactic event. It is the last trumpet. The resurrection of the dead will occur at that time when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:51-54).

What follows the final wrath of God and the judgment? The appearing of the new heavens and new earth. Eternity. Only believers will be on the new earth at that point while unbelievers will have been cast into the lake of fire.



Ch 11 ends with what?

Look at ch 4 as to lightnings and Rev. 8 same thing - similar stuff all going on, and once those things happen, what came next?

lightnings thunderings get followed by what?

So Rev. 11:19 should be followed by?The judgment. Read Revelation 11:18. The time that the dead should be judged and the saints are rewarded has arrived at that point.

Clifton
Jul 15th 2008, 03:43 PM
The first resurrection is when a person, dead in sins and trespasses, is brought to life by the renewing work of the Holy Spirit when one's sins are washed away. When Christ returns, everyone is resurrected. :yippie:

That might be a fair statement when one turns to the Lord, but Biblically speaking, the phrase “The first resurrection” is a Biblical idiom/expression that refers to those AFTER they leave this life. And since one can lose their salvation, (I think this is noted in Hebrews Chapter 10 somewhere), what then? Thus we see that by applying such a statement to those whom are ‘born from above’ (John 3:3, 7) at that event, makes no sense – there is no “de-resurrection or un-resurrection of the first resurrection”. ;)


Joh 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Not sure what you’re trying to accomplish here. The Bible did not come with Chapter and verse numbers – those were added in the second millennia C.E., so most users were accustomed to reading a lot of context before chapters and verse numbers were added, and some of us still read it that way. IOW, there is nothing in the context that states (or even hints) that the context of this is a “simultaneous”, or at “the same time”, “resurrection of the just and the unjust”, and in fact, the entirety of the scriptures is against that, and shows there is a gap of time that will elapse between the two – I’ve addressed this before here, but I can provide further details again (which is quite lengthy) if you wish so you can confirm this;

Of course there is no doubt that John 5:28, 29 (and Luke 20:35-36) have reference to the literal rising of the body from the grave, but it is evident with the integral of the scriptures that some awake at one time, and others at another, which agrees with the declarations of the Messianic Scriptures (NT), especially that of Revelation Chapter 20 – otherwise, taking out of context (John 5), it may look as if bodies were literally being raised everyday;

Only those, which are saints, (His Sheep) will “hear” His voice – those which are not His sheep will not “hear his voice” (cp. John 10:27, Romans 8:11, 23) in “the first resurrection” at the “same time”, or as the Greek has it, "the resurrection, the first one {he anástasis he prote}". Since the redemption provided by Yeshua The Messiah, there has always been “a believing” and “an unbelieving” group dealt with by The Almighty separately, not capriciously, but according to their own choice of Almighty's sacrifice in and through His son, Yeshua;

Again, The Bible did not come with Chapter and verse numbers – we added those in the second millennia C.E. – so let’s look at some limited context here:
John 5:24-29 The Scriptures 1998+ 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me possesses everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of Elohim. And those having heard shall live. 26 “For as the Father possesses life in Himself, so He gave also to the Son to possess life in Himself, 27 and He has given Him authority also to do judgment, because He is the Son of Aḏam. 28 “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, 29 and shall come forth – those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practised evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment.The statement “Do not marvel (or “astonished”) at this” shows the continuity of the context here that precedes and follows this statement. Here’s a Biblical rendering with some scripture references (which I changed the book names to the English equivalents.):
John 5:24-29 OJB Omein, omein, I say to you, that the one, hearing my dvar and having emunah in the One who sent me, has Chayyei Olam and does not come into the Mishpat Hashem, but has been transferred out of mavet (death) into Chayyim (Life). 25 Omein, omein, I say to you, that a sha'ah (hour) is coming and now is, when the Mesim (dead ones) will hear the kol (voice) of the Ben HaElohim and the ones having heard will live. 26 For just as HaAv has Chayyim (Life) in himself {Deuteronomy 30:20; Job 10:12; 33:4; Psalms 36:10 (9)}, so also HaBen He gave to have Chayyim (Life) in himself. 27 And samchut (authority) He gave to him to make mishpat (judgment) because he is the Ben HaAdam {Daniel 7:13-14}. 28 Do not marvel at this. For a sha'ah (hour, time) is coming in which all the ones in the kevarim (graves) will hear the kol of Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, {Isaiah 26:19; Ezekiel 37:12-13} 29 And will come out, the ones having practiced HaTov to a Techiyas HaMesim of Chayyim (Life), the ones having practiced HaRah to a Techiyas HaMesim of Mishpat (Judgment). {Daniel 12:2} Birkhot (Hebrew for “Blessings”.)

vinsight4u8
Jul 15th 2008, 04:19 PM
In your mind, I guess. But I'm not seeing that. Instead, I see parallels. I believe the seventh vial is poured out immediately after the seventh trumpet sounds. The final wrath of God is said to have arrived at the seventh trumpet. Also, the seventh trumpet is "the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints". So, the day of judgment arrives when the seventh trumpet sounds as well. In Revelation 10:7 it tells us that when the seventh angel sounds his trumpet "the mystery of God should be finished". The seventh trumpet clearly signals a climactic event. It is the last trumpet. The resurrection of the dead will occur at that time when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:51-54).

What follows the final wrath of God and the judgment? The appearing of the new heavens and new earth. Eternity. Only believers will be on the new earth at that point while unbelievers will have been cast into the lake of fire.

The judgment. Read Revelation 11:18. The time that the dead should be judged and the saints are rewarded has arrived at that point.

Putting parts together a bit at a time seems to show how Revelation can flow smoothly.

Okay, I asked about the lightnings and thundering part.

Did you check in ch 4?
Verse 5 shows what takes place right after the part as to out of the throne proceded...
lightnings
and thunderings
voices

7 lamps of fire are seen
before the throne

So is that the same pattern Rev. 8:5 follows?

8:5
"...there were voices, and thunderings...."
So did seven now do something?

v6
"And the seven angels prepared themselves to sound.

Not pour - just sound.
It is time for the seven trumpet punishment plagues.

What does Rev. 15:1 tell you about the vials?

John146
Jul 15th 2008, 04:23 PM
Putting parts together a bit at a time seems to show how Revelation can flow smoothly.

Okay, I asked about the lightnings and thundering part.

Did you check in ch 4?
Verse 5 shows what takes place right after the part as to out of the throne proceded...
lightnings
and thunderings
voices

7 lamps of fire are seen
before the throne

So is that the same pattern Rev. 8:5 follows?

8:5
"...there were voices, and thunderings...."
So did seven now do something?

v6
"And the seven angels prepared themselves to sound.

Not pour - just sound.
It is time for the seven trumpet punishment plagues.

What does Rev. 15:1 tell you about the vials?Huh? Do you have any comments on what I actually said in my post?

vinsight4u8
Jul 15th 2008, 04:28 PM
Hi John,

I have to get going, so back in a few hours or so. Take the part you said as to the mystery of God is finished.

Does it say everything to do with the endtimes of God is finished?

No - there is a mystery - and it is to finish in the manner /as/ prophesied by the prophets.

How is that?
The prophets have foretold for this time to end early.

in the manner
/as
in the way
foretold
it will end early
God will repent of some of the evil time that was to come upon Israel.
He will call it back - as in the seven thunders part is resealed.

The 7th trumpet is only beginning God's wrath time, not ending it.
Before this trumpet sounds it is the nations that are to blame for the earth's destuction happenings.

What do you think Rev. 15:1 showed to John?

How about the end of Rev. 15?

If chapter 16 is about the time of seven angels pouring out plagues - then shouldn't a time of lightnings and such be noted first - so as to keep with the pattern of how God brings a time of punishment about?

Link the end of Rev.11 to the start of ch 16.

Firstfruits
Jul 15th 2008, 04:32 PM
Notice that in ch 4 - no plague is mentioned. In Rev. 8 - earthquake ends the time of plagues, and Rev 11: 19 shows great hail will fall at another time of plagues coming to an end.


The verse you gave - Rev. 11:19 mentions the temple opens in heaven, okay then consider what John told you at the end of ch 15?

the temple was closed to men
till???

At the 7th trumpet - certain events begin to unfold and the temple in heaven opens.
But John doesn't yet see men in it.
They are not yet sitting about the throne and reigning.

The temple in heaven opens and then soon John writes to us about a list of stuff to come - even great hail. John is giving the list announced as to what it will take to end the next set of plagues.

What is the time of trouble at which the plague/treasures of hail is reserved?

Job 38:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=38&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
Job 38:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=38&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

Is 28:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.


Firstfruits

John146
Jul 15th 2008, 04:41 PM
Hi John,

I have to get going, so back in a few hours or so. Take the part you said as to the mystery of God is finished.

Does it say everything to do with the endtimes of God is finished?

No - there is a mystery - and it is to finish in the manner /as/ prophesied by the prophets.

How is that?
The prophets have foretold for this time to end early.

in the manner
/as
in the way
foretold
it will end early
God will repent of some of the evil time that was to come upon Israel.
He will call it back - as in the seven thunders part is resealed.

The 7th trumpet is only beginning God's wrath time, not ending it.
Before this trumpet sounds it is the nations that are to blame for the earth's destuction happenings.

What do you think Rev. 15:1 showed to John?

How about the end of Rev. 15?

If chapter 16 is about the time of seven angels pouring out plagues - then shouldn't a time of lightnings and such be noted first - so as to keep with the pattern of how God brings a time of punishment about?

Link the end of Rev.11 to the start of ch 16.Let me ask you a couple questions so that I can clarify my understanding of your view.

Do you believe Christ returns at the seventh trumpet and that the resurrection and "rapture" of the saints occurs at that time? If so, why does Rev 16:15, which comes after the sixth vial, indicate that Christ has not yet returned at that point? If not, when do you see Christ returning in relation to the trumpets and vials?

michaeneu
Jul 15th 2008, 04:57 PM
But Rev 19 does not mention the gathering of the elect from all over the earth (Mark 13 mentions that while Matthew 24 and Luke 21 do not), so does that mean Mark 13:26-27 and Revelation 19 are not related? Of course not. I'm sure you see my point. Using this kind of argument is not valid.

[/SIZE][/FONT]Nice theory, but I'm certainly not seeing what you're seeing from that text.
You certainly did not do anything here to prove that "Recapitulation completely fails in any reconciliation between ch. 12-19 and ch. 20.".

Nevertheless we are given understanding as to what immediately happens upon the gathering, the wedding feast, which is to consume the substance of the armies that are arrayed to impede them possessing the earth. The saints come into view in the heaven/air so as to vanquish their foes with the brightness of Christ’s coming—they are not even depicted touching the earth and neither is Christ.

In chapter 20 the saints are camped upon the earth and John draws on Ezekiel as the fulfillment of chapter 38. The contrast lies in the fulfillment of Ezekiel, which portrays the eschatological consummation, the redemption of Israel and their eternal security, being brought back from the sword, as already being accomplish for some time; John merely provides the time as 1000 years.

Clear contrast and inhibition to recapitulation—clear and simple—if one does an exhaustive study on the object of Ezekiel 38; the contrast is that Chap. 19 depict the moment that the saints receive that eternal security depicted in Chapter 20.

Mike

John146
Jul 15th 2008, 05:59 PM
Nevertheless we are given understanding as to what immediately happens upon the gathering, the wedding feast, which is to consume the substance of the armies that are arrayed to impede them possessing the earth. The saints come into view in the heaven/air so as to vanquish their foes with the brightness of Christ’s coming—they are not even depicted touching the earth and neither is Christ.

In chapter 20 the saints are camped upon the earth and John draws on Ezekiel as the fulfillment of chapter 38. The contrast lies in the fulfillment of Ezekiel, which portrays the eschatological consummation, the redemption of Israel and their eternal security, being brought back from the sword, as already being accomplish for some time; John merely provides the time as 1000 years.

Clear contrast and inhibition to recapitulation—clear and simple—if one does an exhaustive study on the object of Ezekiel 38; the contrast is that Chap. 19 depict the moment that the saints receive that eternal security depicted in Chapter 20.

MikeI believe you are making a mistake relating Ezekiel 38 to Revelation 20. In Ezekiel 38, Gog is "the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal" in the land of Magog. However, in Revelation 20, the terms Gog and Magog are used symbolically to represent "the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth".

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. - Rev 20:8

That is from the KJV. Young's Literal Translation makes this easier to see what Gog and Magog represent in Rev 20:8.

8and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea; (YLT)

If Ezekiel 38 is supposed to be directly related to Revelation 20:7-9 then why don't Gog and Magog have the same description in each passage?

Also, will people be fighting after the thousand years are over with bucklers, shields and swords (Ezekiel 38:4)?

Raybob
Jul 15th 2008, 06:11 PM
That might be a fair statement when one turns to the Lord, but Biblically speaking, the phrase “The first resurrection” is a Biblical idiom/expression that refers to those AFTER they leave this life. And since one can lose their salvation, (I think this is noted in Hebrews Chapter 10 somewhere), what then? Thus we see that by applying such a statement to those whom are ‘born from above’ (John 3:3, 7) at that event, makes no sense – there is no “de-resurrection oun-resurrection of the first resurrection”. ;)

Hebrews 10 doesn't say anything about anyone loosing their salvation. Actually the bible tells Christians cannot loose their salvation.

Joh 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.



Not sure what you’re trying to accomplish here. The Bible did not come with Chapter and verse numbers – those were added in the second millennia C.E., so most users were accustomed to reading a lot of context before chapters and verse numbers were added, and some of us still read it that way. In speaking of John 5:28-29, it said "the HOUR is coming..." That clearly speaks of a time, not two times. The passage is about "the hour". How else can you read "the Hour"?

IOW, there is nothing in the context that states (or even hints) that the context of this is a “simultaneous”, or at “the same time”, “resurrection of the just and the unjust”, and in fact, the entirety of the scriptures is against that, and shows there is a gap of time that will elapse between the two The entirety of scripture speaks of "the" judgment day, for instance:
Dan 12:1-2 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people... many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
-also-
Mat 11:22-24 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. (23) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. (24) But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.


Only those, which are saints, (His Sheep) will “hear” His voice – those which are not His sheep will not “hear his voice” (cp. John 10:27, Romans 8:11, 23) in “the first resurrection” at the “same time”, or as the Greek has it, "the resurrection, the first one {he anástasis he prote}". Since the redemption provided by Yeshua The Messiah, there has always been “a believing” and “an unbelieving” group dealt with by The Almighty separately, not capriciously, but according to their own choice of Almighty's sacrifice in and through His son, Yeshua;Yes, only the sheep hear His voice and follow Him but every eye shall see Him when He returns.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Raybob

Mograce2U
Jul 15th 2008, 07:21 PM
A coming day of judgment is also tied to the day of the Lord's visitation. It is a time when the sentence against wicked men is carried out - in the earth. There were many of these days in the OT against wicked nations and they are used for examples in the NT. It seems to me that "the day of judgment" spoken of is a particular day of visitation by Christ which was to work the sentence against wicked men as it would be seen in the earth by what happened to them.

Death is what brings men into the judgment of God. And it would also seem that it is the unjust who are the ones who are resurrected to face the final judgment and the 2nd death. If there is to be an all encompassing judgment for the wicked following their being raised from the dead, it would seem that only those who have not been justified by faith in Christ are the ones who would attend it.

Except for the 1st century saints, who we see arrived enmasse in heaven in Rev and were told to wait a little while for their brethren, I don't see that there is another enmasse resurrection for the saints that is yet to come. These saints were waiting for the wrath of God to fall upon the wicked at a specific point in time. Now that is over, what other day of judgment is there that WE must wait for which is for the wicked? Either we are already justified by faith or we are not. I see nothing that prevents us from going straight into the presence of God and glory upon the death of these mortal bodies. And it would seem this is exactly what Jesus said our hope in Him is about.

(John 11:25-26 KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: {26} And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

If the dead saints from the 1st century and prior have been resurrected, then any who are alive after that will never die. I believe this.

wpm
Jul 15th 2008, 10:01 PM
A coming day of judgment is also tied to the day of the Lord's visitation. It is a time when the sentence against wicked men is carried out - in the earth. There were many of these days in the OT against wicked nations and they are used for examples in the NT. It seems to me that "the day of judgment" spoken of is a particular day of visitation by Christ which was to work the sentence against wicked men as it would be seen in the earth by what happened to them.

Death is what brings men into the judgment of God. And it would also seem that it is the unjust who are the ones who are resurrected to face the final judgment and the 2nd death. If there is to be an all encompassing judgment for the wicked following their being raised from the dead, it would seem that only those who have not been justified by faith in Christ are the ones who would attend it.

Except for the 1st century saints, who we see arrived enmasse in heaven in Rev and were told to wait a little while for their brethren, I don't see that there is another enmasse resurrection for the saints that is yet to come. These saints were waiting for the wrath of God to fall upon the wicked at a specific point in time. Now that is over, what other day of judgment is there that WE must wait for which is for the wicked? Either we are already justified by faith or we are not. I see nothing that prevents us from going straight into the presence of God and glory upon the death of these mortal bodies. And it would seem this is exactly what Jesus said our hope in Him is about.

(John 11:25-26 KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: {26} And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

If the dead saints from the 1st century and prior have been resurrected, then any who are alive after that will never die. I believe this.

Do you deny that there is a future resurrection day of the righteous when Jesus comes?

Do you still believe Jesus is Coming again for His people?

Paul

Clifton
Jul 15th 2008, 11:55 PM
Hebrews 10 doesn't say anything about anyone loosing their salvation. Actually the bible tells Christians cannot loose their salvation.

It’s in Hebrews 10:26-27 in the Greek – sorry if it does not come across clear in English. Of course, it is true that God is the only One who can make the ultimate determination regarding the eternal destiny of anyone.


Joh 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Whose hand is it here? The Father’s, the Son’s, or both hands? Nonetheless, someone else plucking them out of either is not the same as oneself falling from grace by their own merit(s) – each is accountable for one’s own self.


In speaking of John 5:28-29, it said "the HOUR is coming..." That clearly speaks of a time, not two times. The passage is about "the hour". How else can you read "the Hour"? I provided the context, and I see here, it is dismissed. The way you are “reading it” is not in the Greek the way you express it here. It is one of those complications of translating into English (not so much with Indo-European languages). The text does not read “THE” hour, (much less, the one and only ‘hour’), but instead, can demand an English indefinite article of “an” – otherwise, without some article in English, it is just not good English (to the bone of it):
“not wonder this for coming ‘hour’ in which all those in the tombs the shall hear his voice”;

Again, the integral context of the Bible provides us with the coherency and balance of it. Thus, it can refer to a whole list of “hours” for that matter! Which BTW, the Greek can mean days, seasons, instance, etc. Please see your resource(s) for Strong’s G5610 for more info.


The entirety of scripture speaks of "the" judgment day, for instance:
Dan 12:1-2 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people... many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Since this refers to “many of them” which applies to (as an adjective) “that sleep in the dust”, and not each and everyone, care to tell me where the rest of those that “sleep” are and what will become of them??? You believe the others not address here (in the way you use the verse) will be “annihilated”? I’ve been acquainted for Hebrew for nearly three decades, so I can’t wait to hear your response to this. :D It looks like your idea here of “the” judgment day, (excuse the pun), falls to dust. ;) Curious. Do you not understand the term “eclectic resurrection”? Do you know what Daniel 12:2 is telling you? “Onesh Olam” (“Everlasting Gehinnom”) is here made more fearsome in light of the prevalent neglect of Scripture in favor of non-Biblical studies.


Mat 11:22-24 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. (23) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. (24) But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. Uh-huh. As I said, the integral context of the Bible provides us with the coherency and balance of it, and its structure. The scriptures teach us that YHWH has had, and does have, and will have “judgments” (PLURAL);

And as for this passage piece you quote? There is no “THE day of judgment”, much less, “the one and only day of judgment”, and considering the way the languages worked back in those days, the statement for English “the day of judgment” would not necessarily limit it to just one “judgment” anyway – that is why Biblical Context is important. Also note that this judgment mentioned here refers to the naughty wicked ones.


1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. Checked. See my statement above.


Yes, only the sheep hear His voice and follow Him For addressing “His” sheep, the “His” is the pronoun referring to Yeshua the Messiah.


but every eye shall see Him when He returns.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Whew, slight bit of head spinning here. That’s one way to fix an egg. Let’s try to sort it out and rightly divide the scriptures:
For it has been written, “As I live, says יהוה, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to Elohim.” Each one of us, therefore, shall give account of himself to Elohim.
Romans 14:11-12 The Scriptures 1998+That is a quotation of Isaiah 45:23 (at least) – Notice that “Elohim” is actually a plural form;
“I have sworn by Myself, a word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, so that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue swear.
Isaiah 45:23 The Scriptures 1998+
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; Notice that this is in the GREEK PRESENT TENSE - INDICATIVE MOOD, and that is why it is not stating “he SHALL cometh” (GREEK FUTURE TENSE - INDICATIVE MOOD). This is an admonition and encouragement. The GREEK PRESENT TENSE means it is a LINEAR VERB (PROGRESSIVE, CONTINUOUS), The GREEK INDICATIVE MOOD with the GREEK PRESENT TENSE means that it is an event/action that is “in the progress at the present time spoken/written”. It tells us that He “comes” everyday and continuous to come until the linear part expires, for various reasons. To understand this, think of the word “go” in the statement, “I GO TO SCHOOL”.

As for the word “clouds”, well, the book certainly likes different shades of imagery, so I will leave you with what you think it might refer to – I understand the term can mean “messengers” (or, “Angels”).


and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: Eventually, yes. After all, each man in his own order, of course (Corinthians 15:23).


and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Stating it like that is uncalled for. And I thought the word ‘mourn” was weird, and here you say “wail”. Well, yea, the Greek word πασαι (G3956) was used in the same manner we today use the word “all” in English, and depending on the text, can mean, “Collectively” (‘some of all types’), but I’m sorry, I feel you provide a rendering that is not quite right.
Behold, he comes with clouds and every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him, and all the families of The Earth shall mourn for him; yes and amen!That’s from the Crawford Aramaic Manuscript. Seriously, who is it that is “mourning”? That would suggest the “Collective” would be the lost sheep and those whom pierced Him.

Let’s peek at what DSS Revelation states and closely parallels that verse:
1. (1:7) Behold, the Angel of the Air{1}shall bring Him, and every eye shall see Him, and the brotherhood, all the vast brotherhood of the Earth, shall raise their voice as one and sing, because of Him. Amen.
Footnote: {1}. First Angel which later in the text opens “the first seal”. “…shall raise their voice as one and sing”. Does not that sound more wonderful?:pp

Blessings.

Clifton
Jul 16th 2008, 12:14 AM
Hey Clifton,

Hey Mike,


Have a good day.

And you as well.


Mike

Many named after the Archangel.:cool:

Clifton.

Mograce2U
Jul 16th 2008, 12:16 AM
Do you deny that there is a future resurrection day of the righteous when Jesus comes?

Do you still believe Jesus is Coming again for His people?

PaulThe questions seem to be loaded ;) but I will try to answer anyway.

If you mean do I think Jesus must return physically to the earth to rescue His people from the day of wrath coming upon the wicked, the answer is no. Jesus has already come in the flesh to bring us salvation. That salvation is sufficient to bring us into His presence in the spiritual realm. Therefore I do not believe that an enmasse resurrection is in our future. I do however see one for the wicked in the future - as they are the rest of the (unjustified) dead who face the 2nd death which we are spared who are part of the first resurrection. Should the Lord tarry and I die first, I still expect to see the Lord immediately, not as some ethereal spirit clothed in a white robe, but clothed upon on arrival in the spiritual body He has prepared for me.

The day of wrath that is coming upon the whole earth is what brings it to an end. Our "rescue" in that day will be that we will fully enter into the spiritual realm, as that is all there is when we are brought into His presence face to face - where He is. And either way (now or then), I think we will find that the previously dead are already there and most have been for some time - even thousands of earth years.

Merton
Jul 16th 2008, 01:52 AM
The questions seem to be loaded ;) but I will try to answer anyway.

If you mean do I think Jesus must return physically to the earth to rescue His people from the day of wrath coming upon the wicked, the answer is no. Jesus has already come in the flesh to bring us salvation. That salvation is sufficient to bring us into His presence in the spiritual realm. Therefore I do not believe that an enmasse resurrection is in our future. I do however see one for the wicked in the future - as they are the rest of the (unjustified) dead who face the 2nd death which we are spared who are part of the first resurrection. Should the Lord tarry and I die first, I still expect to see the Lord immediately, not as some ethereal spirit clothed in a white robe, but clothed upon on arrival in the spiritual body He has prepared for me.

The day of wrath that is coming upon the whole earth is what brings it to an end. Our "rescue" in that day will be that we will fully enter into the spiritual realm, as that is all there is when we are brought into His presence face to face - where He is. And either way (now or then), I think we will find that the previously dead are already there and most have been for some time - even thousands of earth years.


How come?

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Merton.

wpm
Jul 16th 2008, 03:43 AM
The questions seem to be loaded ;) but I will try to answer anyway.

If you mean do I think Jesus must return physically to the earth to rescue His people from the day of wrath coming upon the wicked, the answer is no. Jesus has already come in the flesh to bring us salvation. That salvation is sufficient to bring us into His presence in the spiritual realm. Therefore I do not believe that an enmasse resurrection is in our future. I do however see one for the wicked in the future - as they are the rest of the (unjustified) dead who face the 2nd death which we are spared who are part of the first resurrection. Should the Lord tarry and I die first, I still expect to see the Lord immediately, not as some ethereal spirit clothed in a white robe, but clothed upon on arrival in the spiritual body He has prepared for me.

The day of wrath that is coming upon the whole earth is what brings it to an end. Our "rescue" in that day will be that we will fully enter into the spiritual realm, as that is all there is when we are brought into His presence face to face - where He is. And either way (now or then), I think we will find that the previously dead are already there and most have been for some time - even thousands of earth years.

So, you have finally become a Full-Preterist?

Paul

Mograce2U
Jul 16th 2008, 04:25 AM
So, you have finally become a Full-Preterist?

PaulAnd what does that tag tell you in addition to what I have said? I am a believer in the Lord Jesus just as you are. I just happen to believe that He actually did what He said He would do. Therefore I have a good basis for my hope in what I ought to expect in the future which need not speculate about things I cannot know otherwise. I do believe the Lord is "coming back" - just not in the way it is commonly taught. Mostly because I don't think He has left us alone at all as if He was someplace else than in our midst. I think you may have more to answer for under amil than I do under preterism. But it is not a particular system of thought that I have adopted, it is where scripture has led me. Recapitulation theories and such are just more ways that man tries to lock down something when he doesn't yet believe what it might be saying to him otherwise. Which is not so much a criticism but a human error nonetheless.

Which doesn't mean we can't still be friends I hope :hug:

wpm
Jul 16th 2008, 04:50 AM
And what does that tag tell you in addition to what I have said? I am a believer in the Lord Jesus just as you are. I just happen to believe that He actually did what He said He would do. Therefore I have a good basis for my hope in what I ought to expect in the future which need not speculate about things I cannot know otherwise. I do believe the Lord is "coming back" - just not in the way it is commonly taught. Mostly because I don't think He has left us alone at all as if He was someplace else than in our midst. I think you may have more to answer for under amil than I do under preterism. But it is not a particular system of thought that I have adopted, it is where scripture has led me. Recapitulation theories and such are just more ways that man tries to lock down something when he doesn't yet believe what it might be saying to him otherwise. Which is not so much a criticism but a human error nonetheless.

Which doesn't mean we can't still be friends I hope :hug:

You know that the expression of this view here is forbidden?

Paul

Merton
Jul 16th 2008, 05:10 AM
You know that the expression of this view here is forbidden?

Paul


As far as I know Mograce is not expressing it, as if trying to teach it.

A mill is just as mystical in interpreting scriptures which are clearly actual as being mystical, such as sitting on thrones reigning over the nations.

Merton.

Raybob
Jul 16th 2008, 10:40 AM
The questions seem to be loaded ;) but I will try to answer anyway.

If you mean do I think Jesus must return physically to the earth to rescue His people from the day of wrath coming upon the wicked, the answer is no. Jesus has already come in the flesh to bring us salvation. That salvation is sufficient to bring us into His presence in the spiritual realm. Therefore I do not believe that an enmasse resurrection is in our future. I do however see one for the wicked in the future - as they are the rest of the (unjustified) dead who face the 2nd death which we are spared who are part of the first resurrection. Should the Lord tarry and I die first, I still expect to see the Lord immediately, not as some ethereal spirit clothed in a white robe, but clothed upon on arrival in the spiritual body He has prepared for me.

The day of wrath that is coming upon the whole earth is what brings it to an end. Our "rescue" in that day will be that we will fully enter into the spiritual realm, as that is all there is when we are brought into His presence face to face - where He is. And either way (now or then), I think we will find that the previously dead are already there and most have been for some time - even thousands of earth years.
Robin,
Do you expect this earth and heaven to dissolve at this future time and a future new earth?

Do you see eternal damnation in a lake of fire forever for the rejected people?

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Raybob

vinsight4u8
Jul 16th 2008, 12:59 PM
Let me ask you a couple questions so that I can clarify my understanding of your view.

Do you believe Christ returns at the seventh trumpet and that the resurrection and "rapture" of the saints occurs at that time? If so, why does Rev 16:15, which comes after the sixth vial, indicate that Christ has not yet returned at that point? If not, when do you see Christ returning in relation to the trumpets and vials?

Yes, as to your 7th trumpet question. I believe the two witnesses rise at the same hour as the third woe earthquake, which is the hour of all the dead of the just rise. I see it as only after this point would the saints be referred to as "lived".
So they must live - before they can reign in ch 20.

Rev. 20:4
"...they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Till the saints get to living for eternity state clothes, they can't reign.

Rev. 19:7
"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."
v8
"And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine line, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."


As to Rev. 16...back up just a bit and look at how ch 15 ends.
It shows us that it only takes seven plagues before the temple in heaven will open to men.


Rev. 16 speaks as to Jesus wiil come as a thief and people must keep their garments.
Why?
Because the church rapture time - took up all of the new fine linen out of the grave victory outfits at the 7th trumpet.
There will be no victory for any lost their garments -died people after the 7th trumpet.

So "keepeth garments'
means - don't die
keep your skin outfits intact

This battle of ch 16 (Armageddon) is the same battle that some army in fine linen, clean and white comes out of heaven to fight at.

fine linen, clean and white - was what those saints (the wife) wore at the marriage

vinsight4u8
Jul 16th 2008, 01:21 PM
Don't both the events end with the final plague?

Rev 11:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 16:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Not forgetting that judgment is at the seventh trumpet.

Firstfruits

You are on the right track here. Now look at Rev. 8:5 as it doesn't list the great hail part, but ends with an earthquake.

Rev. 8:5 shows this...
that before the time of the trumpets
will go out a list
ends with earthquake

/showing the time of trumpets will continue till the earthquake

Rev. 11:19 shows that
after the 7th trumpet ends
will go out a whole new list
another set of plagues is to begin
that set will end with great hail

Rev. 16:21 brings us to the end of the vials plague time.


Rev. 4:5 shows that first John just saw out of the throne came...
lightnings
thunderings
voices

but no plagues
then seven lamps of fire were seen
the Seven Spirits of God

When John later came to the point of plagues were added in...
he each time then should have seen 7 ready with plagues

as in seven angels are there to do a job
of plagues
first time - till the plagues end with an earthquake
next time - till the plagues end with great hail

vinsight4u8
Jul 16th 2008, 01:48 PM
What is the time of trouble at which the plague/treasures of hail is reserved?

Job 38:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=38&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
Job 38:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=38&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

Is 28:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

Firstfruits

Good find!

This links us clear back to Deuteronomy 32.

v20 /speaks as to God will hide His face
v21 /speaks as to God will provoke israel to anger using a foolish nation
v36/ tells that God will repent Himself when He sees that Israel's power is gone
v34/shows this is all sealed up

Rev. 6


6th seal
God's shows His face
since people are hiding from His face
Rev. 6 - seals get opened (1-6)
(the nation that will provoke Israel) to anger

but at the time of the seven thunders part of ch 10 - is when God will repent Himself of some of the evil that was to come on Israel


John was told not to write
seal it up
the mystery of God should be finished as He hath declared to His servants the prophets
the prophet type of declaration is this
it will end early
God would repent Himself of some of the evil
Notice though - the plagues as to the vials has nothing as to calling back any of that punishment time.

Rev. 16:17
"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."

v18
'And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings,; and there was such a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and so] great."
v19
"...great Babylon, came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."
v21
"And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven...the plague thereof was exceeding great."

John146
Jul 16th 2008, 01:53 PM
And what does that tag tell you in addition to what I have said? I am a believer in the Lord Jesus just as you are. I just happen to believe that He actually did what He said He would do. Therefore I have a good basis for my hope in what I ought to expect in the future which need not speculate about things I cannot know otherwise. I do believe the Lord is "coming back" - just not in the way it is commonly taught. Mostly because I don't think He has left us alone at all as if He was someplace else than in our midst. I think you may have more to answer for under amil than I do under preterism. But it is not a particular system of thought that I have adopted, it is where scripture has led me. Recapitulation theories and such are just more ways that man tries to lock down something when he doesn't yet believe what it might be saying to him otherwise. Which is not so much a criticism but a human error nonetheless.

Which doesn't mean we can't still be friends I hope :hug:In other words, yes, you have become a full preterist. Or close to it, at least. I guess you did say that you believe Rev 20:11-15 is still future, right? Do you believe Revelation 21 is speaking of the future?

John146
Jul 16th 2008, 02:07 PM
Yes, as to your 7th trumpet question. I believe the two witnesses rise at the same hour as the third woe earthquake, which is the hour of all the dead of the just rise. I see it as only after this point would the saints be referred to as "lived".
So they must live - before they can reign in ch 20.

Rev. 20:4
"...they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Till the saints get to living for eternity state clothes, they can't reign.

Rev. 19:7
"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."
v8
"And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine line, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."


As to Rev. 16...back up just a bit and look at how ch 15 ends.
It shows us that it only takes seven plagues before the temple in heaven will open to men.


Rev. 16 speaks as to Jesus wiil come as a thief and people must keep their garments.
Why?
Because the church rapture time - took up all of the new fine linen out of the grave victory outfits at the 7th trumpet.
There will be no victory for any lost their garments -died people after the 7th trumpet.

So "keepeth garments'
means - don't die
keep your skin outfits intact

This battle of ch 16 (Armageddon) is the same battle that some army in fine linen, clean and white comes out of heaven to fight at.

fine linen, clean and white - was what those saints (the wife) wore at the marriageYou are very hard to follow, but this is my understanding of your view. It's basically a post-trib, pre-wrath rapture view, right? You see Jesus returning and the saints raptured at the seventh trumpet, correct? And then you see Jesus coming after the vials as well? Do I have that right?

I find your explanation of Rev 16:15 to be strange, to say the least. Why would Jesus tell those who have (supposedly) already received their immortal bodies to be careful not to die? That makes no sense.

He is only coming back once and it's clear that He will have not yet come back even as of the time the sixth vial is poured out. So, if He comes at the seventh trumpet and some time after the sixth vial, it then only makes sense to me that He comes at the seventh trumpet and the seventh vial (God's final wrath) is poured out at that time.

michaeneu
Jul 16th 2008, 02:07 PM
I believe you are making a mistake relating Ezekiel 38 to Revelation 20. In Ezekiel 38, Gog is "the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal" in the land of Magog. However, in Revelation 20, the terms Gog and Magog are used symbolically to represent "the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth".

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. - Rev 20:8

That is from the KJV. Young's Literal Translation makes this easier to see what Gog and Magog represent in Rev 20:8.

8and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea; (YLT)

If Ezekiel 38 is supposed to be directly related to Revelation 20:7-9 then why don't Gog and Magog have the same description in each passage?

Also, will people be fighting after the thousand years are over with bucklers, shields and swords (Ezekiel 38:4)?

Your reasoning against John’s use of Ezekiel 38 is insufficient. The expository of OT prophecies by the NT authors integrated greater revelation while maintaining continuity with the OT predictions. Prime example is Paul’s expository of the promises to Abraham in Romans chapter four. His exegesis extended the promises to the Gentiles and expanded the dominion of the promises to cover the world, not just Palestine. In the Revelation John does the same with the prophecy in Ezekiel. Moreover the prophecy has long been understood by the best expositors in my mind to be interpreted for the last days from our perspective because of context. The best expositors interpret Chapter 37 as predicting the eschatological consummation of Israel for sundry reasons including the characterization of the resurrection. And the succeeding chapters of 40-48 characterize New Jerusalem. John developed the exact pattern in chapter 20 and the chapters that followed. It’s more than mere coincidence.

As to the fighting implements, when Christ returns the nations “beat their swords into plowshares” and their “spears into pruning hooks” as a metaphor for disarmament and the earth returns to an agrarian people. Modernism has totally transformed society and indoctrinated man to forget that Yahweh’s kingdom was and shall be predicated upon an agrarian people—not an industrial society!

“And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.” Amos 9:14-15

John and Ezekiel were given inspiration of the time in which Israel is brought back from the sword to abide upon the land in their eternal estate, dwelling safely—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars (Ezk. 38:11). Of course this has NEVER happened throughout the Gospel age. It is only after many days, in future years from Christ’s return that Yahweh releases Satan to gather the nations from the four corners, Gog and Magog, for the purpose of one final rebellion—THAT IS ACCORDING TO JOHN AND THE SCRIPTURES.

Mike

vinsight4u8
Jul 16th 2008, 02:32 PM
Hi John146,

What do you think John knew about at the end of ch 15?

John146
Jul 16th 2008, 02:33 PM
Your reasoning against John’s use of Ezekiel 38 is insufficient. The expository of OT prophecies by the NT authors integrated greater revelation while maintaining continuity with the OT predictions. Prime example is Paul’s expository of the promises to Abraham in Romans chapter four. His exegesis extended the promises to the Gentiles and expanded the dominion of the promises to cover the world, not just Palestine. In the Revelation John does the same with the prophecy in Ezekiel. Moreover the prophecy has long been understood by the best expositors in my mind to be interpreted for the last days from our perspective because of context. The best expositors interpret Chapter 37 as predicting the eschatological consummation of Israel for sundry reasons including the characterization of the resurrection. And the succeeding chapters of 40-48 characterize New Jerusalem. John developed the exact pattern in chapter 20 and the chapters that followed. It’s more than mere coincidence.The best expositors? The Holy Spirit is the best expositor. Your best expositors don't mean much to me. You didn't even bother naming any of them. What makes them better able to understand scripture than you or me? Nothing. Does majority always rule when it comes to understanding end times doctrine? I guess you and I should be pre-trib dispensationalists then, since that is the most common view today. You say Ezekiel 40-48 characterizes New Jerusalem. Hardly. Those chapters describe sin offerings being performed at a physical temple. But Revelation 21:22 tells us that there will be no physical temple in the New Jerusalem because "the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it". How do you reconcile Rev 21:22 with your understanding of Ezekiel 40-48?


As to the fighting implements, when Christ returns the nations “beat their swords into plowshares” and their “spears into pruning hooks” as a metaphor for disarmament and the earth returns to an agrarian people. Modernism has totally transformed society and indoctrinated man to forget that Yahweh’s kingdom was and shall be predicated upon an agrarian people—not an industrial society!

“And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.” Amos 9:14-15You're missing the spiritual nature of this prophecy. Look a few verses earlier:

9For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. - Amos 9:9-12


Now, if you read that passage without taking the New Testament into account, you'd probably tend to think it is not yet fulfilled. But the NT says otherwise.


13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. - Acts 15:13-17


Here, we see James explaining that the fulfillment of Amos 9 has to do with God providing a way of salvation for the Gentiles through Christ. He built up the tabernacle of David by sending His Son to make a way for the Gentiles to become part of the temple of God, which has Jesus Christ as the cornerstone. You consistently miss the spiritual fulfillment of those OT prophecies. You don't allow the New Testament scriptures to give you the proper understanding of those passages.




John and Ezekiel were given inspiration of the time in which Israel is brought back from the sword to abide upon the land in their eternal estate, dwelling safely—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars (Ezk. 38:11). Of course this has NEVER happened throughout the Gospel age. It is only after many days, in future years from Christ’s return that Yahweh releases Satan to gather the nations from the four corners, Gog and Magog, for the purpose of one final rebellion—THAT IS ACCORDING TO JOHN AND THE SCRIPTURES.

MikeNo, that is according to (what I believe to be) your flawed opinion.

Mograce2U
Jul 16th 2008, 03:54 PM
Hi John146,

What do you think John knew about at the end of ch 15?That the resurrection had occurred.

vinsight4u8
Jul 16th 2008, 04:44 PM
That the resurrection had occurred.

The resurrection of all of the just?
So did the 7th plague end?

"till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled"

Seven plagues are over -fulfilled - done with - and John knew it takes that before the men can enter the temple in heaven.

So

is this where John actually heard the trumpets going?
at the end of ch 15
they ended
then men could enter the temple in heaven

Rev. 16 shows yet another set of seven plagues was to come.
(the vials of God's wrath)


So the resurrection hour of all in the grave hearing His voice come forth to get eternal life happens before the seven plagues of the vials can begin.

Do you agree that the trumpets end before the vials can begin?

Mograce2U
Jul 16th 2008, 05:11 PM
Do you agree that the trumpets end before the vials can begin?That seems to be the gist of it. At the sounding of the 7th trump the dead are raised and then the vials are poured out.

vinsight4u8
Jul 16th 2008, 05:31 PM
You are very hard to follow, but this is my understanding of your view. It's basically a post-trib, pre-wrath rapture view, right? You see Jesus returning and the saints raptured at the seventh trumpet, correct? And then you see Jesus coming after the vials as well? Do I have that right?

I find your explanation of Rev 16:15 to be strange, to say the least. Why would Jesus tell those who have (supposedly) already received their immortal bodies to be careful not to die? That makes no sense.

He is only coming back once and it's clear that He will have not yet come back even as of the time the sixth vial is poured out. So, if He comes at the seventh trumpet and some time after the sixth vial, it then only makes sense to me that He comes at the seventh trumpet and the seventh vial (God's final wrath) is poured out at that time.

Did you look at the end of Rev. 15?

man can enter the temple
only the seven plagues need be over first

As for what my view is...
I would say - 7th trumpet, but not at the start of it as some preach...for first the seated 24 elders have to fall down, worship the One on the throne - and soon will come an earthquake.
The angel of Rev. 11 revealed to John that the two witnesses rise at the same hour as the quake.

Jesus will come back in the 6th vial time and one of His armies that got salvation, put on her fine linen (righteousness clothes) and went to the marriage, will head to the battle to take down the beast.

Jesus is not picking up people at the time of Armageddon. His saints are with Him on the white horses - following Him (as the Word of God) out of heaven.
These people are not dead - they just came from the marriage time, and before that was salvation.


Rev. 19:1
"And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation..."
v7
"...for the marriage of the Lamb is come..."
You are trying to tell me that these saints at the marriage have not yet been called out of their graves - as in the resurrection of the just is after the marriage?

So then the still dead - waiting for eternal life change to their bodies people ride on white horses in clothes that they got just before the marriage?
righteousness of saints
fine linen, white and clean

When John wrote the letters to the churches, he didn't write as if any dead saints were already ruling on thrones, over the nations.

Rev. 3:21
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father is his throne.

Rev. 15 shows men can't even enter the temple in heaven till the seven plagues end.

Mograce2U
Jul 16th 2008, 05:41 PM
Rev. 15 shows men can't even enter the temple in heaven till the seven plagues end.Which is why I believe these things have come and are finished. Otherwise we do not have a hope of resurrection upon death and Jesus' statement cannot be believed.

(John 11:26 KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

vinsight4u8
Jul 16th 2008, 05:47 PM
That seems to be the gist of it. At the sounding of the 7th trump the dead are raised and then the vials are poured out.

Ok! Super!:thumbsup:

I've been making records as to what some posters on here believe. I have done it in the past at times too and then would junk them, but a bit back I bought dividers that make it super easy to jot things down quickly as to topics, so that is why I asked you. I couldn't find anything with your name listed yet, so I needed to get some clarification as to what you see will happen.

Now, do you also see that 7th trumpet as the third woe?

And as the third woe being the earthquake hour, it is when the two witnesses rise at the resurrection of the just?

Do you agree that the earthquake (third woe) was not seen by John at the end of ch 11 or anywhere in ch 11?

The seated 24 elders fell down - worshipped and no quake to allow the two witnesses to rise - for they rise at the hour of all the just.

Thanks!

vinsight4u8
Jul 16th 2008, 05:52 PM
Which is why I believe these things have come and are finished. Otherwise we do not have a hope of resurrection upon death and Jesus' statement cannot be believed.

(John 11:26 KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

You believe the seven trumpets are over? Believers won't die the second death (lake of fire).

Rev. 20:6
"Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power..."

Till there is a resurrection of all of the just, the saints can't reign.

Rev. 20:6
"...hath part in the first resurrection...they shall reign..."

First - the saints get life, eternal life bodies, then soon after that they will reign with Christ.

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2008, 06:40 PM
You are on the right track here. Now look at Rev. 8:5 as it doesn't list the great hail part, but ends with an earthquake.

Rev. 8:5 shows this...
that before the time of the trumpets
will go out a list
ends with earthquake

/showing the time of trumpets will continue till the earthquake

Rev. 11:19 shows that
after the 7th trumpet ends
will go out a whole new list
another set of plagues is to begin
that set will end with great hail

Rev. 16:21 brings us to the end of the vials plague time.


Rev. 4:5 shows that first John just saw out of the throne came...
lightnings
thunderings
voices

but no plagues
then seven lamps of fire were seen
the Seven Spirits of God

When John later came to the point of plagues were added in...
he each time then should have seen 7 ready with plagues

as in seven angels are there to do a job
of plagues
first time - till the plagues end with an earthquake
next time - till the plagues end with great hail

At the angel with the seventh trumpet the final plague is poured out on man.

At the angel with the seventh vial the final plague is poured ot on man.

Are they therefore the same event or does judgment come twice, and the same withn the final plague?

The seventh trumpet
Rev 11:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The seventh vial
Rev 16:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

If they are not the same then it means that when the events of the seventh trumpet are finished and the final plague is done, that the plagues of the vials start again.

So what is it, one and the same or a repeat of plagues from the begining?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2008, 06:47 PM
Good find!

This links us clear back to Deuteronomy 32.

v20 /speaks as to God will hide His face
v21 /speaks as to God will provoke israel to anger using a foolish nation
v36/ tells that God will repent Himself when He sees that Israel's power is gone
v34/shows this is all sealed up

Rev. 6


6th seal
God's shows His face
since people are hiding from His face
Rev. 6 - seals get opened (1-6)
(the nation that will provoke Israel) to anger

but at the time of the seven thunders part of ch 10 - is when God will repent Himself of some of the evil that was to come on Israel


John was told not to write
seal it up
the mystery of God should be finished as He hath declared to His servants the prophets
the prophet type of declaration is this
it will end early
God would repent Himself of some of the evil
Notice though - the plagues as to the vials has nothing as to calling back any of that punishment time.

Rev. 16:17
"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."

v18
'And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings,; and there was such a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and so] great."
v19
"...great Babylon, came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."
v21
"And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven...the plague thereof was exceeding great."



With regards to these scriptures do you think that God has reserved two separate judgments at which he will give his plague of hail?

Job 38:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=38&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
Job 38:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=38&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

Is 28:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

Which battle do you believe the plague of hail is reserved for, or is there only one final battle?

Firstfruits

Mograce2U
Jul 16th 2008, 07:03 PM
You believe the seven trumpets are over? Believers won't die the second death (lake of fire).

Rev. 20:6
"Blessed and holy he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power..."

Till there is a resurrection of all of the just, the saints can't reign.

Rev. 20:6
"...hath part in the first resurrection...they shall reign..."

First - the saints get life, eternal life bodies, then soon after that they will reign with Christ.
(Rom 5:17-21 KJV) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) {18} Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [I]the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. {19} For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. {20} Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: {21} That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

This reign has already begun in this life which will continue into the next. There is not one thing we must still be waiting for, other than death to see Him in the fullness of His glory. We have this grace and by it will live forever with out ceasing - except to this world which is how we get outta here.

vinsight4u8
Jul 16th 2008, 08:34 PM
(Rom 5:17-21 KJV) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) {18} Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. {19} For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. {20} Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: {21} That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

This reign has already begun in this life which will continue into the next. There is not one thing we must still be waiting for, other than death to see Him in the fullness of His glory. We have this grace and by it will live forever with out ceasing - except to this world which is how we get outta here.

The people speaking (martyrs) of the 5th seal are not told to hurry and get on their thrones or judge anybody on earth. They are told to rest.
rest yet
as in continue
till when?

till the others that should be killed as they were

Rev. 7 - shows the martyrs out of great tribulation and then salvation.


Same thing Hebrews 9:28 mentions (salvation) as to when Jesus Christ appears.

Same thing gets said by the people in Rev. 19:1 - Salvation.

Rev. 19 is where we need to start before ever trying to have anything in ch 20 take place.
The events in ch 19 happen and then ch 20.

When Jesus appears is when He in coming in glory.

Titus 2:13


"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing..."

Jesus is bringing back sleeping saints with Him, not saints that were sitting on thrones and judging the nations.


Colossians 3:4

"When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."


"And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation;..."
2 Peter 3:15

vinsight4u8
Jul 16th 2008, 08:39 PM
At the angel with the seventh trumpet the final plague is poured out on man.

At the angel with the seventh vial the final plague is poured ot on man.

Are they therefore the same event or does judgment come twice, and the same withn the final plague?

The seventh trumpet
Rev 11:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The seventh vial
Rev 16:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

If they are not the same then it means that when the events of the seventh trumpet are finished and the final plague is done, that the plagues of the vials start again.

So what is it, one and the same or a repeat of plagues from the begining?

Firstfruits


What does the bible show is the final plague of the trumpet time?

What does it show is the final plague of the vials events?

michaeneu
Jul 17th 2008, 01:58 AM
The best expositors? The Holy Spirit is the best expositor. Your best expositors don't mean much to me. You didn't even bother naming any of them. What makes them better able to understand scripture than you or me? Nothing. Does majority always rule when it comes to understanding end times doctrine? I guess you and I should be pre-trib dispensationalists then, since that is the most common view today. You say Ezekiel 40-48 characterizes New Jerusalem. Hardly. [/SIZE][/FONT]Those chapters describe sin offerings being performed at a physical temple. But Revelation 21:22 tells us that there will be no physical temple in the New Jerusalem because "the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it". How do you reconcile Rev 21:22 with your understanding of Ezekiel 40-48?


But from whom did you quote from in the post that I responded to? Wasn’t it Young’s? And whose commentary did you read to come to Amillennialism? As I see it Amillennialism doesn’t come from a simply reading the Bible because it strays so far from literalism—the simple reading of the texts. Amillennialism leans heavily on allegory so what problem would Amillennialists have in allegory concerning the temple of Ezekiel? Why do you insist on literalism concerning the temple and not the rest of the Bible? As I stated previously concerning exegesis, revelation is allowed so long as continuity is maintained, but I see Amillennialism stray too far from continuity.


You're missing the spiritual nature of this prophecy. Look a few verses earlier:

9For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. - Amos 9:9-12


Now, if you read that passage without taking the New Testament into account, you'd probably tend to think it is not yet fulfilled. But the NT says otherwise.


13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. - Acts 15:13-17


Here, we see James explaining that the fulfillment of Amos 9 has to do with God providing a way of salvation for the Gentiles through Christ. He built up the tabernacle of David by sending His Son to make a way for the Gentiles to become part of the temple of God, which has Jesus Christ as the cornerstone. You consistently miss the spiritual fulfillment of those OT prophecies. You don't allow the New Testament scriptures to give you the proper understanding of those passages.

I needn’t stray too far and quote again from the same text in Amos to correct you.

“And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.” Amos 9:14-15

How can the text be fulfilled so long as the time of the Gentiles have not been fulfilled and the Jews have not come to their fullness?

“Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? Rom. 11:12

The highlighted phrase refers to the Jews sent into captivity in 70 AD and the fulfillment of Amos cannot be completed until their captivity ends, and that would be from sin also. What many get hung-up on is the meaning of “fulfill”. With Amillennialism and others its an all or nothing that the word means “bring to an end”. But another sense of the word also means to “develop to the full potentialities” and this is how we are to see Acts 15:13-17; Yahweh is building His house by gathering in the Gentiles but they don’t receive the kingdom until he returns and they are no longer pulled up out of their land and this is exactly what is depicted in Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 20. These texts represent many days after the eschatological consummation of the house of Yahweh, 1000 years, while Revelation 19 contrasts as the beginning of this time.

Mike

Merton
Jul 17th 2008, 03:26 AM
(John 11:26 KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

This verse is not saying that people who live and believe in him will never die, but only that they will not die AFTER they have died and been raised from the dead---

YLT
Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, `I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live;

Merton.

wpm
Jul 17th 2008, 03:43 AM
But from whom did you quote from in the post that I responded to? Wasn’t it Young’s? And whose commentary did you read to come to Amillennialism? As I see it Amillennialism doesn’t come from a simply reading the Bible because it strays so far from literalism—the simple reading of the texts. Amillennialism leans heavily on allegory

It is actually Premil that is non literalist. They keep inserting 1,000 yrs into passage after passage that makes no allusion to this supposed future millennium.

Let us look at a few reading.

A Destructive Coming

2 Peter 3:10-13 declares: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

This tells us that the day of the Lord will come unexpectedly, witnessing the dissolving of the heavens, the elements, the earth and the works that are therein. A plain reading of this tells us that the wrath of God is sudden destruction. Do you agree?

A General All-inclusive Judgment

2 Timothy 4:1 confirms, “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom.”

Who do you consider is excluded from the "quick (or living) and the dead"?

Jesus taught in the parable of the wheat and tares (in Matthew 13:24-30), “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed among the wheat, and went his way …Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, (1) Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but (2) gather the wheat into my barn.”

Verses 39-43 continues, “the harvest is the end of the world (or) aioonos (or) age; and the reapers are the angels. (1) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (2) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

This passage tells us that the righteous and the wicked are judged at the same time at the end of this age, not 1,000 yrs after it as Premils allege. Do you agree with my literal interpretation?

I am just establishing the bona-fide of your previous claims.

Paul

wpm
Jul 17th 2008, 03:50 AM
(Rom 5:17-21 KJV) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) {18} Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. {19} For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. {20} Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: {21} That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

This reign has already begun in this life which will continue into the next. There is not one thing we must still be waiting for, other than death to see Him in the fullness of His glory. We have this grace and by it will live forever with out ceasing - except to this world which is how we get outta here.

You know that the expression of Full Preterism is forbidden here? Why as a professing believer do you choose to promote it?

Paul

Firstfruits
Jul 17th 2008, 09:00 AM
What does the bible show is the final plague of the trumpet time?

What does it show is the final plague of the vials events?

Did you read the scriptures given?

The seventh trumpet
Rev 11:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The seventh vial
Rev 16:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

With regards to these scriptures do you think that God has reserved two separate judgments at which he will send his plague of hail?

Job 38:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=38&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
Job 38:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=18&CHAP=38&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

Is 28:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

Which battle do you believe the plague of hail is reserved for, or is there only one final battle?

Firstfruits

Mograce2U
Jul 17th 2008, 06:03 PM
You know that the expression of Full Preterism is forbidden here? Why as a professing believer do you choose to promote it?

PaulBecause I am not a full preterist, and partial preterism is allowed.

wpm
Jul 17th 2008, 06:11 PM
Because I am not a full preterist, and partial preterism is allowed.

Do you believe in the literal, physical and visible future return of Jesus for His people as Partial Preterism does and Full Preterism doesn't?

Paul

John146
Jul 17th 2008, 07:02 PM
But from whom did you quote from in the post that I responded to? Wasn’t it Young’s?I didn't say we can't learn from others. I'm saying, who are you to say who are the best expositors? And I made the point that the Holy Spirit is the best expositor. If we read a commentary or hear a commentator, what should we do then? Be like the Bereans and study the scriptures for ourselves to see if it is so, right?


And whose commentary did you read to come to Amillennialism?No one's. I saw it discussed here, it made me curious, so I studied the scriptures for myself and saw that it was so.


As I see it Amillennialism doesn’t come from a simply reading the Bible because it strays so far from literalism—the simple reading of the texts.Where does scripture itself say that we are supposed to read the Bible that way? Instead, I see this:

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:10-14



Amillennialism leans heavily on allegory so what problem would Amillennialists have in allegory concerning the temple of Ezekiel? Why do you insist on literalism concerning the temple and not the rest of the Bible? As I stated previously concerning exegesis, revelation is allowed so long as continuity is maintained, but I see Amillennialism stray too far from Amil interprets scripture according to the type or style of writing. Books like Daniel and Revelation are apocalyptic writings containing a lot of symbolic language so they should be read accordingly and not hyper-literally throughout. The book of John, on the other hand, is much more straightforward. Amil reads John 5:28-29 literally and takes it at face value. It teaches that an hour or time in history is coming when all the dead will be raised, some to life and some to damnation. Premil takes the liberty to insert a thousand plus years into the text and also inserts the idea of two hours or times when the dead are raised rather than the one hour or time that the text actually mentions. This is poor exegesis, if you ask me.


I needn’t stray too far and quote again from the same text in Amos to correct you.

“And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.” Amos 9:14-15

How can the text be fulfilled so long as the time of the Gentiles have not been fulfilled and the Jews have not come to their fullness?

“Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? Rom. 11:12

The highlighted phrase refers to the Jews sent into captivity in 70 AD and the fulfillment of Amos cannot be completed until their captivity ends, and that would be from sin also. What many get hung-up on is the meaning of “fulfill”. With Amillennialism and others its an all or nothing that the word means “bring to an end”. But another sense of the word also means to “develop to the full potentialities” and this is how we are to see Acts 15:13-17; Yahweh is building His house by gathering in the Gentiles but they don’t receive the kingdom until he returns and they are no longer pulled up out of their land and this is exactly what is depicted in Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 20. These texts represent many days after the eschatological consummation of the house of Yahweh, 1000 years, while Revelation 19 contrasts as the beginning of this time.

MikeSorry, but I'm not following you there. I stand by what I said previously. I don't see that you said anything here to refute what I said.

John146
Jul 17th 2008, 07:05 PM
Because I am not a full preterist, and partial preterism is allowed.What do you believe is left to be fulfilled?

Mograce2U
Jul 17th 2008, 08:13 PM
What do you believe is left to be fulfilled?The arrival of the New Jerusalem.

Mograce2U
Jul 17th 2008, 08:48 PM
Do you believe in the literal, physical and visible future return of Jesus for His people as Partial Preterism does and Full Preterism doesn't?

Paul
(John 17:24 KJV) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

(John 17:11 KJV) And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

(John 14:19 KJV) Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

(John 14:1-4 KJV) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. {2} In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. {3} And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. {4} And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

(John 14:6 KJV) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

(2 Sam 12:22-23 KJV) And he [David] said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? {23} But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. (-this one is worth spending some time thinking about)

I am inclined to believe that the only way we will see the Lord face to face is because we have gone to be where He is. I don't expect the world will ever see Him again in the way He came the first time. They will however see the fire that precedes His glory. A fire which will not harm us as we make the transition into glory. I do not see these passages in John as showing us anything other than that He has not left us alone at all, therefore I expect the relationship to continue uninterrupted even though I must pass thru death.

So in answer to the way you have stated the question, my answer is no to that idea. I expect rather that the Lord's coming for me will be like He did for Steven in the moment preceding his death. Could Stephen have spoken to us past that moment, I believe it would have been standing at Jesus' side. I do however believe that there will be a climatic end to this world, but the tribulation that precedes it is one of spiritual deception and when the Lord brings it to its end it will be suddenly, in an instant and without recourse.

John146
Jul 17th 2008, 09:10 PM
(John 17:24 KJV) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

(John 17:11 KJV) And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

(John 14:19 KJV) Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

(John 14:1-4 KJV) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. {2} In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. {3} And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. {4} And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

(John 14:6 KJV) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

(2 Sam 12:22-23 KJV) And he [David] said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? {23} But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. (-this one is worth spending some time thinking about)

I am inclined to believe that the only way we will see the Lord face to face is because we have gone to be where He is. I don't expect the world will ever see Him again in the way He came the first time. They will however see the fire that precedes His glory. A fire which will not harm us as we make the transition into glory. I do not see these passages in John as showing us anything other than that He has not left us alone at all, therefore I expect the relationship to continue uninterrupted even though I must pass thru death.

So in answer to the way you have stated the question, my answer is no to that idea. I expect rather that the Lord's coming for me will be like He did for Steven in the moment preceding his death. Could Stephen have spoken to us past that moment, I believe it would have been standing at Jesus' side. I do however believe that there will be a climatic end to this world, but the tribulation that precedes it is one of spiritual deception and when the Lord brings it to its end it will be suddenly, in an instant and without recourse.So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you basically believe that 2 Peter 3:10-13 is all that's left to be fulfilled? But you don't see a connection between the day of the Lord and a bodily second coming of Christ? Is that right?

Mograce2U
Jul 17th 2008, 09:36 PM
So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you basically believe that 2 Peter 3:10-13 is all that's left to be fulfilled? But you don't see a connection between the day of the Lord and a bodily second coming of Christ? Is that right?Actually I do see a connection between the day of the Lord and the resurrection of the saints. But I believe that has occurred and we continue to be a part of it.

(2 Pet 3:7 KJV) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But here Peter is referring to a day of judgment and damnation for ungodly men. And he seems to see it as a long way off. You know the 1000 years as a day....

(2 Pet 2:9 KJV) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

This is the day which thousands of years may pass before it comes as a thief in the night. The phrase "day of the Lord" is used many times in scripture for different judgments sent by God - which always fall unexpectedly upon the wicked. But we don't need to be concerned with that final day, all we need look for is the promise of the new heavens and new earth - our hope is focused on the promise of the New Jerusalem. And I think Peter is in line with Rev 20 that also mentions a "thousands" year period which is followed by this fire that falls from heaven and then the resurrection of the ungodly and their judgment - the rest of the dead who DO have to face the 2nd death.

michaeneu
Jul 17th 2008, 10:11 PM
It is actually Premil that is non literalist. They keep inserting 1,000 yrs into passage after passage that makes no allusion to this supposed future millennium.

Let us look at a few reading.

A Destructive Coming

2 Peter 3:10-13 declares: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

This tells us that the day of the Lord will come unexpectedly, witnessing the dissolving of the heavens, the elements, the earth and the works that are therein. A plain reading of this tells us that the wrath of God is sudden destruction. Do you agree?

A General All-inclusive Judgment

2 Timothy 4:1 confirms, “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom.”

Who do you consider is excluded from the "quick (or living) and the dead"?

Jesus taught in the parable of the wheat and tares (in Matthew 13:24-30), “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed among the wheat, and went his way …Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, (1) Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but (2) gather the wheat into my barn.”

Verses 39-43 continues, “the harvest is the end of the world (or) aioonos (or) age; and the reapers are the angels. (1) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (2) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

This passage tells us that the righteous and the wicked are judged at the same time at the end of this age, not 1,000 yrs after it as Premils allege. Do you agree with my literal interpretation?

I am just establishing the bona-fide of your previous claims.

Paul

Paul, Premillennialist weren’t the first to introduce 1000 years between the return of Christ and the eternal estate, John the Revelator was the first. That is the natural way of reading chapters 19 and 20. Recapitulation is not the natural way to read the texts. That is not to say that recapitulation is not used in scripture, such as Daniel, but it totally unwarranted in the aforementioned.

As to the texts you quoted, if one doesn’t interpret them according to Premillennialism and looks on them according to Amillennialism then they have Christ’s kingdom reigning NOW as the heir of David’s throne over all creation, over all mankind and everything else—a kingdom sin filled, goat infested, full of sickness, filled with war, rebellion, death, corruption and decay. Sorry you can’t just cherry pick part of a passage that relates to him and not come to the full ramifications. That is why I choose to accept John’s introduction of 1000 years between Christ’s reign in power and the eternal estate and not Amillennialism.

Mike

michaeneu
Jul 17th 2008, 10:12 PM
I didn't say we can't learn from others. I'm saying, who are you to say who are the best expositors? And I made the point that the Holy Spirit is the best expositor. If we read a commentary or hear a commentator, what should we do then? Be like the Bereans and study the scriptures for ourselves to see if it is so, right?

No one's. I saw it discussed here, it made me curious, so I studied the scriptures for myself and saw that it was so.

Well then what is all the hoopla about? I’ve learned from commentators that studied years as scholars you learned from guys on forums. So what? It’s presumptuous of you to thing I would do any less that you and prove my sources with the scriptures. If Paul and you could resist making straw-men then we could actually deal with the scriptures.



Where does scripture itself say that we are supposed to read the Bible that way? Instead, I see this:

[/SIZE][/FONT] 10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:10-14

1 Corinthians 2:10-14 doesn’t say we’re to interpret predominately figuratively! You need to read what I’m saying more carefully to avoid red-herrings. Of course understanding comes from the Spirit, never made a statement to the contrary. But its not license to take literal things figuratively, which I think is the bane of Preterism and Amillennialism.



Amil interprets scripture according to the type or style of writing. Books like Daniel and Revelation are apocalyptic writings containing a lot of symbolic language so they should be read accordingly and not hyper-literally throughout. The book of John, on the other hand, is much more straightforward. Amil reads John 5:28-29 literally and takes it at face value. It teaches that an hour or time in history is coming when all the dead will be raised, some to life and some to damnation. Premil takes the liberty to insert a thousand plus years into the text and also inserts the idea of two hours or times when the dead are raised rather than the one hour or time that the text actually mentions. This is poor exegesis, if you ask me.

“I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.” NIV John 5:25

What Amillennialism misses is the aorist tense in scripture. The aorist tense is used to portray an event as though it were already accomplished in order to stress the certainty of the event and that is the only way to properly interpret John 5:25-29. Otherwise the immediacy of the highlighted verb clause leads to Preterism. Proper exegesis of the text reveals that the exact timing of the resurrections is not within the scope of the text, only their certainty. It is the Revelation that gives us greater understanding of 1000 years between the first resurrection of the just and that of everyone else. This is the problem that is confronting Moregrace2U? And this is why all too often Amillennialism leads to Preterism.



Sorry, but I'm not following you there. I stand by what I said previously. I don't see that you said anything here to refute what I said.


I quoted Amos 9:14-15 in support that Yahweh’s kingdom was and shall be predicated upon an agrarian people depicted in Ezekiel 38 and John’s use of the OT text. And you asserted my quote from Amos as already fulfilled because James quotes from the same text in Acts chapter seven. I was/am well aware that Amillennialism uses the texts in Acts to assert that Christ is currently reigning in David’s kingdom, but as I stated in my last post all I have to do is quote from the same text to show that is not the proper interpretation of Acts.

“And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.” Amos 9:14-15

How can the text be fulfilled so long as the time of the Gentiles have not been fulfilled and the Jews have not come to their fullness?

“Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? Rom. 11:12

The highlighted phrase refers to the Jews sent into captivity in 70 AD and the fulfillment of Amos cannot be completed until their captivity ends, and that would be from sin also. What many get hung-up on is the meaning of “fulfill”. With Amillennialism and others its an all or nothing that the word means “bring to an end”. But another sense of the word also means to “develop to the full potentialities” and this is how we are to see Acts 15:13-17; Yahweh is building His house by gathering in the Gentiles but they don’t receive the kingdom until he returns and they are no longer pulled up out of their land and this is exactly what is depicted in Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 20. These texts represent many days after the eschatological consummation of the house of Yahweh, 1000 years, while Revelation 19 contrasts as the beginning of this time.

Mike

wpm
Jul 17th 2008, 10:34 PM
Paul, Premillennialist weren’t the first to introduce 1000 years between the return of Christ and the eternal estate, John the Revelator was the first. That is the natural way of reading chapters 19 and 20. Recapitulation is not the natural way to read the texts. That is not to say that recapitulation is not used in scripture, such as Daniel, but it totally unwarranted in the aforementioned.

As to the texts you quoted, if one doesn’t interpret them according to Premillennialism and looks on them according to Amillennialism then they have Christ’s kingdom reigning NOW as the heir of David’s throne over all creation, over all mankind and everything else—a kingdom sin filled, goat infested, full of sickness, filled with war, rebellion, death, corruption and decay. Sorry you can’t just cherry pick part of a passage that relates to him and not come to the full ramifications. That is why I choose to accept John’s introduction of 1000 years between Christ’s reign in power and the eternal estate and not Amillennialism.

Mike

You have totally ignored my questions. This is the only way I know to check the bona-fides of your contention on whether you take a plain reading of Scripture or not - my experience is Premils don't. They keep interpreting the rest of the Bible in the light of their opinion of Rev 20 - this to me is wrong. This forces them to insert 1,000 yrs in every resurrection/judgment passage in Scripture - even though it exists in none of them. It forces an additional 1,000 yrs after the climactic Coming after Christ eliminates all the wicked (this is also seen in Rev 19 and negates imposing the Premil theory on Rev 20 - which is saturated with wicked as the sand of the sea.

You can't squeeze the rest to Scripture into the Prermil view of this much-debated passage - we should actually fit it into the consistent depiction of Scripture of a Second Coming that is climactic.

David's throne

I have already showed that the Holy Spirit confirms Christ is now sitting on David's throne. Acts 2:29-36 says: “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ” (Acts 2:25-31).

The statement in question which you reject as applying to David's throne actually confirms it. It is referring to the actual oath "God had sworn" to David of Messiah taking His illustrious seat in Psalms 132:12. Christ was indeed the fulfilment of the Davidic promise.

Psalms 132:12 says, "The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne."

Paul

michaeneu
Jul 18th 2008, 12:32 AM
You have totally ignored my questions. This is the only way I know to check the bona-fides of your contention on whether you take a plain reading of Scripture or not - my experience is Premils don't. They keep interpreting the rest of the Bible in the light of their opinion of Rev 20 - this to me is wrong. This forces them to insert 1,000 yrs in every resurrection/judgment passage in Scripture - even though it exists in none of them. It forces anm additional 1,000 yrs after the climactic Coming after Christ eliminates all the wicked (this is also seen in Rev 19 and negates imposing the Premil theory on Rev 20 - which is saturated with wicked as the sand of the sea.

You can't squeeze the rest to Scripture into the Prermil view of this much-debated passage - we should actually fit it into the consistent depiction of Scripture of a Second Coming that is climactic.

David's throne

I have already showed that the Holy Spirit confirms Christ is now sitting on David's throne. Acts 2:29-36 says: “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ” (Acts 2:25-31).

The statement in question which you reject as applying to David's throne actually confirms it. It is referring to the actual oath "God had sworn" to David of Messiah taking His illustrious seat in Psalms 132:12. Christ was indeed the fulfilment of the Davidic promise.

Psalms 132:12 says, "The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne."

Paul


I’ve ignored nothing. I gave a prime example how amillennialism takes the natural or plane reading of Revelation 19 and 20 and reads them in a way that forces a Messianic kingdom sin filled, goat infested, full of sickness, filled with war, rebellion, death, corruption and decay. Previously I stated that it is Amillennialism that upholds the “immediacy posture” concerning the Messianic kingdom that the Jews were demanding NOT Dispensationalism, albeit something totally foreign to the OT in light of the truth that the OT NEVER speaks of a Messianic kingdom IN heaven. I simply note that Amillennialism has the burden to prove its assertion that the Messianic kingdom is in heaven (paradise) and not upon the earth as the OT upholds—not the other way around. I have yet to see any evidence in the NT that states the Messianic kingdom is IN heaven—merely that it proceeds FROM heaven: “thy kingdom come...”

The OT predictions concerning the Messianic kingdom are strictly predicated on Yahweh’s theocracy upon earth, not in heaven. There is no need to bring his kingdom to heaven; it’s already there. The object is to bring the kingdom in a theocracy to this earth; the throne of David was the eschatological intrusion that is to be consummated upon Christ’s return. The amillennial view forces an extreme figurative view of scripture that ends up with a Messianic kingdom that is sin filled, goat infested, full of sickness, filled with war, rebellion, death, corruption and decay!

If you had dug a little deeper into Acts chapter two you would have noted that the scope of the text is about the prophecies of David—not the prophecy of Nathan. For every scholar that would even hint in ambivalence that Ps. 132 was authored by David, there are half a dozen that are confident that the author was Salomon because the doxology is almost verbatim from Solomon’s dedication of the temple. And again the prophecy that is reiterated in verse 11 wasn’t David’s but Nathan’s. As I said, Peter is not giving a critical account of Ps. 132, but of Ps. 16; the former is Solomon’s, the later is David’s.

David knew the sworn oath in the second chapter of Acts, verse thirty, by Nathan’s prophecy (2 Sam. 7:12); however it was David’s vision/prophecy that spoke of the resurrection of Christ in the sixteenth Psalm. It is the latter that is the scope of Acts chapter two, not the former. The preeminent expositors credit the hundred and thirty-second Psalm to Solomon and not David, and the passage found in Acts chapter two is Nathan’s divinely granted prophecy, not David’s. The consequences are that Peter is not describing Christ being raised to David’s throne as Amillennialists and Progressive Dispensationalists assert, for the subject is David’s prophecy, not Nathan’s; Peter is not addressing the prophecy through Nathan, but the prophecy through David. Peter merely affirmed that by knowing Nathan’s prophecy David’s mind was so conditioned as to write the divinely granted reflection of the resurrection of Christ and that is all that can be supported from the text (verses 30-31)! Again, the scope of the text does not support that Christ was raised to David’s throne, which is also in direct conflict with the third chapter and twenty-second verse of the Revelation, the twenty-fifth chapter of Matthew, verse thirty-one, and the first chapter of Acts when Christ stated that it was not for them to know the times and seasons of the restoration of Israel. Of course such a notion of Christ sitting on David’s throne at this time is really alien to all the scriptures.

Michael

wpm
Jul 18th 2008, 02:24 AM
I’ve ignored nothing. I gave a prime example how amillennialism takes the natural or plane reading of Revelation 19 and 20 and reads them in a way that forces a Messianic kingdom sin filled, goat infested, full of sickness, filled with war, rebellion, death, corruption and decay. Previously I stated that it is Amillennialism that upholds the “immediacy posture” concerning the Messianic kingdom that the Jews were demanding NOT Dispensationalism, albeit something totally foreign to the OT in light of the truth that the OT NEVER speaks of a Messianic kingdom IN heaven. I simply note that Amillennialism has the burden to prove its assertion that the Messianic kingdom is in heaven (paradise) and not upon the earth as the OT upholds—not the other way around. I have yet to see any evidence in the NT that states the Messianic kingdom is IN heaven—merely that it proceeds FROM heaven: “thy kingdom come...”

The OT predictions concerning the Messianic kingdom are strictly predicated on Yahweh’s theocracy upon earth, not in heaven. There is no need to bring his kingdom to heaven; it’s already there. The object is to bring the kingdom in a theocracy to this earth; the throne of David was the eschatological intrusion that is to be consummated upon Christ’s return. The amillennial view forces an extreme figurative view of scripture that ends up with a Messianic kingdom that is sin filled, goat infested, full of sickness, filled with war, rebellion, death, corruption and decay!

If you had dug a little deeper into Acts chapter two you would have noted that the scope of the text is about the prophecies of David—not the prophecy of Nathan. For every scholar that would even hint in ambivalence that Ps. 132 was authored by David, there are half a dozen that are confident that the author was Salomon because the doxology is almost verbatim from Solomon’s dedication of the temple. And again the prophecy that is reiterated in verse 11 wasn’t David’s but Nathan’s. As I said, Peter is not giving a critical account of Ps. 132, but of Ps. 16; the former is Solomon’s, the later is David’s.

David knew the sworn oath in the second chapter of Acts, verse thirty, by Nathan’s prophecy (2 Sam. 7:12); however it was David’s vision/prophecy that spoke of the resurrection of Christ in the sixteenth Psalm. It is the latter that is the scope of Acts chapter two, not the former. The preeminent expositors credit the hundred and thirty-second Psalm to Solomon and not David, and the passage found in Acts chapter two is Nathan’s divinely granted prophecy, not David’s. The consequences are that Peter is not describing Christ being raised to David’s throne as Amillennialists and Progressive Dispensationalists assert, for the subject is David’s prophecy, not Nathan’s; Peter is not addressing the prophecy through Nathan, but the prophecy through David. Peter merely affirmed that by knowing Nathan’s prophecy David’s mind was so conditioned as to write the divinely granted reflection of the resurrection of Christ and that is all that can be supported from the text (verses 30-31)!

Peter is making passing quotes from several Psalms - Psalms 132, Psalms 16 Psalm 110. Please read the text.

Acts 2:25-36 says, “For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance [referring to Psalms 16:8-10]. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne [referring to Psalms 132:12]; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption [referring to Psalms 16:10]. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, the Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool [referring to Psalm 110:1]. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:25-36).

You cannot argue with this. These are direct quotes. Regardless of what you say, this proves Christ assumed David's throne at the resurrection.

Peter is employing Psalms 132:12, which says: “The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne."

The promise here is expressly to David - not Solomon or Nathan. Moreover, Psalm 16 does not say this that we are looking at in Psalm 132. You provide no evidence of this in your post - just personal commentary. Peter is locating the fulfilment of this at the resurrection of Christ, saying of Christ taking David's throne: "he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ."

There it is!!!


Again, the scope of the text does not support that Christ was raised to David’s throne, which is also in direct conflict with the third chapter and twenty-second verse of the Revelation, the twenty-fifth chapter of Matthew, verse thirty-one, and the first chapter of Acts when Christ stated that it was not for them to know the times and seasons of the restoration of Israel. Of course such a notion of Christ sitting on David’s throne at this time is really alien to all the scriptures.

There is no contradiction with these passages, only your understanding of them.

Paul

John146
Jul 18th 2008, 02:18 PM
Paul, Premillennialist weren’t the first to introduce 1000 years between the return of Christ and the eternal estate, John the Revelator was the first. That is the natural way of reading chapters 19 and 20. Recapitulation is not the natural way to read the texts. That is not to say that recapitulation is not used in scripture, such as Daniel, but it totally unwarranted in the aforementioned. The natural way to read the texts?

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Cor 2:14


As to the texts you quoted, if one doesn’t interpret them according to Premillennialism and looks on them according to Amillennialism then they have Christ’s kingdom reigning NOW as the heir of David’s throne over all creation, over all mankind and everything else—a kingdom sin filled, goat infested, full of sickness, filled with war, rebellion, death, corruption and decay. Sorry you can’t just cherry pick part of a passage that relates to him and not come to the full ramifications. That is why I choose to accept John’s introduction of 1000 years between Christ’s reign in power and the eternal estate and not Amillennialism.Why do you deny Christ's place of power over the universe? Because there is wickedness on the earth means He has no control over things?

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Acts 2:36
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The Greek word for "Lord" in the above passage is kyrios (Strong's 2962) and it means "he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord".

Revelation 1:5-6
5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. - Rev 1:5-6

The Greek word for "prince" in verse 5 above is archōn (Strong's 758) and it means "a ruler, commander, chief, leader".

And, once again, it is undeniable that Acts 2:30 quotes Psalm 132:11, which says that the throne that Christ sat on upon His resurrection was David's throne.

Acts 2:29-30
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Psalm 132:11

11The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

I color coded the verses so that we can see where it is referring to God and where it is referring to David. Compare the bolded part in Acts 2:30 to Psalm 132:11. How can you try to say that Acts 2:30 makes no reference to Psalm 132:11? You can't. It's blatantly obvious that Peter had Psalm 132:11 in mind when he said what he did in Acts 2:30.

So, with that in mind, what did Peter say fulfilled the prophecy of Christ being raised up to sit on David's throne?

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

The prophecy of Psalm 132:11 regarding God swearing an oath to David that one in his lineage would sit on his (David's) throne, which Peter quoted in Acts 2:30, was fulfilled by the resurrection of Christ. It couldn't be more clear.

John146
Jul 18th 2008, 02:45 PM
Well then what is all the hoopla about? I’ve learned from commentators that studied years as scholars you learned from guys on forums. So what? It’s presumptuous of you to thing I would do any less that you and prove my sources with the scriptures. If Paul and you could resist making straw-men then we could actually deal with the scriptures. Believe me, I'd like nothing more than to just stick with the scriptures and leave some unnamed, alleged "best expositors" out of it.


1 Corinthians 2:10-14 doesn’t say we’re to interpret predominately figuratively! You need to read what I’m saying more carefully to avoid red-herrings. Of course understanding comes from the Spirit, never made a statement to the contrary. But its not license to take literal things figuratively, which I think is the bane of Preterism and Amillennialism. We should read scripture according to the style of writing. Amils do not read scripture predominately figuratively. Just when it is meant to be read that way. We read passages such as John 5:28-29, Matthew 25:31-46, 2 Peter 3:3-13 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 quite literally and passages like those support amil, not premil.


“I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.” NIV John 5:25

What Amillennialism misses is the aorist tense in scripture. The aorist tense is used to portray an event as though it were already accomplished in order to stress the certainty of the event and that is the only way to properly interpret John 5:25-29.No, sorry. You have to read John 5:24 to understand John 5:25.

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. - John 5:24

Read that carefully. Jesus says that the one who hears and believes has everlasting life and "is passed" from death unto life. He was speaking of a current reality. He was speaking of passing from spiritual death to spiritual life. That is why He could say that the time was not only coming in the future but "now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.". He is referring to what Paul speaks about in Ephesians 2:5-6, how a believer goes from being spiritually dead in their sins to being quickened or made alive in Christ to sit with him in heavenly places. In John 5:24-25, Jesus is speaking of a spiritual resurrection, which is an ongoing process as each person is born again as time goes on in history. That's what "the hour is coming, and now is" means.

If you're still not convinced, let's look at another passage.

23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. - John 4:23-24

To be consistent, you'd have to say that Jesus was speaking of a future event here. But that is obviously not the case. He was saying that time was already and would continue to be in the future that true worshipers would worship the Father in spirit and in truth. He was speaking of an ongoing reality, just as He was in John 5:24-25. In John 5:28-29, on the other hand, He was only speaking of a future event, because we don't find the phrase "and now is" there.


Otherwise the immediacy of the highlighted verb clause leads to Preterism. Proper exegesis of the text reveals that the exact timing of the resurrections is not within the scope of the text, only their certainty. It is the Revelation that gives us greater understanding of 1000 years between the first resurrection of the just and that of everyone else. This is the problem that is confronting Moregrace2U? And this is why all too often Amillennialism leads to Preterism.I gave you the proper exegesis of the text, using scripture to prove my point. Amillennialism itself has nothing to do with one becoming a preterist. I'm not a preterist. I never will be. Neither is Paul (wpm). Stick with the topic and leave preterism out of it because that has nothing to do with this.


I quoted Amos 9:14-15 in support that Yahweh’s kingdom was and shall be predicated upon an agrarian people depicted in Ezekiel 38 and John’s use of the OT text. And you asserted my quote from Amos as already fulfilled because James quotes from the same text in Acts chapter seven. I was/am well aware that Amillennialism uses the texts in Acts to assert that Christ is currently reigning in David’s kingdom, but as I stated in my last post all I have to do is quote from the same text to show that is not the proper interpretation of Acts.

“And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.” Amos 9:14-15

How can the text be fulfilled so long as the time of the Gentiles have not been fulfilled and the Jews have not come to their fullness?

“Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? Rom. 11:12

The highlighted phrase refers to the Jews sent into captivity in 70 AD and the fulfillment of Amos cannot be completed until their captivity ends, and that would be from sin also. What many get hung-up on is the meaning of “fulfill”. With Amillennialism and others its an all or nothing that the word means “bring to an end”. But another sense of the word also means to “develop to the full potentialities” and this is how we are to see Acts 15:13-17; Yahweh is building His house by gathering in the Gentiles but they don’t receive the kingdom until he returns and they are no longer pulled up out of their land and this is exactly what is depicted in Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 20. These texts represent many days after the eschatological consummation of the house of Yahweh, 1000 years, while Revelation 19 contrasts as the beginning of this time.

MikeI already showed you the differences between Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 20. They are obvious. So, if they are speaking of the same event, then you are doing the very thing that you accuse us of doing: spiritualizing away scripture.