PDA

View Full Version : Is "democracy" the beast government?



jewel4Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 03:16 PM
I believe it is. I believe that Jesus foretold us all things.

There are more than one "beast" in the bible, and I believe they all represent a type of "human" government. The last being the government we call "democracy"...that is made in the "image" of the first beast, which is represented as "the king of babylon, which we will get to later", but first I want to set up a standard as to how the last beast will be of the same spirit as the first beast, thereby making an image of the first beast...

What is the first beast?

So, to put this all together we need to understand how the word of God defines these terms.

Pharoah represents the "god" of this world.

Egypt represents "sin" and, his kingdom represents the fallen world...that held "Israel" in bondage, for example.

We must look at the similarities concerning the "beast" that was, and now is, for it is made in that image.

For example:


Ex 9:1

Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me. 2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:2&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For if thou refuse to let them go, and wilt hold them still, 3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:3&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain. 4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:4&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the LORD shall sever between the cattle of Israel and the cattle of Egypt:



(this represents the same thing God is doing today, separating the true sheep from the false. The "field" is the world, as we read in the new covenant.)

and there shall nothing die of all that is the children's of Israel. 5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:5&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the LORD appointed a set time, saying, To morrow the LORD shall do this thing in the land. 6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:6&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the LORD did that thing on the morrow, and all the cattle of Egypt died: but of the cattle of the children of Israel died not one. 7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:7&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go. 8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:8&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the LORD said unto Moses and unto Aaron, Take to you handfuls of ashes of the furnace, and let Moses sprinkle it toward the heaven in the sight of Pharaoh. 9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:9&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And it shall become small dust in all the land of Egypt, and shall be a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast, throughout all the land of Egypt. 10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:10&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And they took ashes of the furnace, and stood before Pharaoh; and Moses sprinkled it up toward heaven; and it became a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast. 11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:11&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all the Egyptians. 12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:12&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:13&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.



(this represents how God's servants today are standing before the god of this world, and, proclaiming "let God's people go", by witness of the testimony of Jesus, His servants, go into all the world/field, speaking before Pharoah/satan, to let 'God's people go'..which means, let them come out of the fallen world, held in bondage through sin/egpt...as we read in revelation, "come out of her My people")
(http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:14&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en)

14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:14&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth. 15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:15&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth. 16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:16&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.



(Here God explains why He raised up "the first beast"...so that it could be shown that all will reap what they sow, and, pestilence, and, etc, are the result of serving satan/pharoah..which is the same as we read in rev. about the beast that will be present at that endtime..and, we can read that in part here: (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:17&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en)


Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. 2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+16:2&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. 3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+16:3&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en)

So, we see the first beast, and the image of the beast have the same outcome.

Back to Exodus 9:


17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:17&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go? 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:18&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Behold, to morrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now. 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:19&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die. 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:20&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) He that feared the word of the LORD among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses: 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:21&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And he that regarded F21 not the word of the LORD left his servants and his cattle in the field.




(this shows how some hear the words of the Lord, and respond to His words, while others hear and leave their servants in the field/world)


We are called to come OUT of the world, for it is doomed to destruction, by the sure word of God, through reaping and sowing.


We are eventually going to get to the point about "democracy" being the beast government, as was both the case here, and the case in the end time, but, I am trying to first show that the first beast, was present from the beginning of the fallen world, and, will be likewise in the end time, as the "image" of it...and, we will see how the "king" of that first beast, will also have a "image" made unto him, in the last days, as the king of babylon.


Satan is the god of this world/babylon, but, he did have an earthly king, even in that time period..and, this is what we will study in a few more posts to come.


There is nothing new under the sun, what has been shall be, and the image of the beast is already present in this world, in mho...when speaking of things concerning the fallen world, and it's outcome. There are so many parallells in the old covenant that shed much light on what is going to befall mankind in the end.

More to come.

Peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 03:25 PM
Back to Exodus 9:




22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:22&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch forth thine hand toward heaven, that there may be hail in all the land of Egypt, upon man, and upon beast, and upon every herb of the field, throughout the land of Egypt. 23 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:23&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground; and the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt. 24 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:24&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous, such as there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation. 25 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:25&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field. 26 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:26&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Only in the land of Goshen, where the children of Israel were, was there no hail.



(this represents the same thing that is coming to this fallen world, as we read in revelation, as the judgement of the "beast" will be likewise the same. (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:27&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en)


Here is the parallell of this verse: (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:27&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en)


rev 8:7
(http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:27&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en)




The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

and,

rev. 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Back to Exodus 9:

27 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:27&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked. 28 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:28&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Intreat the LORD (for it is enough) that there be no more mighty F22 thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no longer. 29 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:29&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And Moses said unto him, As soon as I am gone out of the city, I will spread abroad my hands unto the LORD; and the thunder shall cease, neither shall there be any more hail; that thou mayest know how that the earth is the LORD'S. 30 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:30&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But as for thee and thy servants, I know that ye will not yet fear the LORD God. 31 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:31&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the flax and the barley was smitten: for the barley was in the ear, and the flax was bolled. 32 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:32&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) But the wheat and the rie were not smitten: for they were not grown up. 33 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:33&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And Moses went out of the city from Pharaoh, and spread abroad his hands unto the LORD: and the thunders and hail ceased, and the rain was not poured upon the earth. 34 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:34&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. 35 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:35&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.



Parallell:


In the last days, God will use the two witnesses in the same manner in which He used Moses, and when the two witnesses close up the heavens, just as Moses did, those whom serve as servants of Pharaoh, will be hardened, and once again, they will not turn from their worldly ways.




Rev 11:1




And I will give F12 power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+11:4&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+11:5&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+11:6&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+11:7&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+11:8&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+11:9&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+11:10&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


So, they go right back with even harder hearts...



Just as the case in Exodus also states.

More to come, and, I am hoping that others with the same mindset will join in and give their added help, and for those whom are not of this mindset, we can discuss as to why not.

...and, we can get into how "democracy" fits into this beastly system, that is an image of the first one...with the earthly king of babylon.

peaceandlove,

janet

Literalist-Luke
Jul 1st 2008, 03:43 PM
Just a few questions:

1. There were four governments mentioned in Daniel 2, the first of which was specifically identified as Nebuchadnezzar/Babylon. Then there were four beasts shown in Daniel 7. What objective reason do we have for assuming they are not the same?

2. The parallels between the lion beast in Daniel 7 and Nebuchadnezzar are remarkable. Consider the episode of the lion being given the mind of a human with Nebuchadnezzar's account in Daniel 4. If Daniel 4 is not what the "human mind" episode is referring to, then what is it?

3. The final beast is said to "crush" and "trample" everything under it. How does democracy do this, as opposed to more authoritarian forms of government?

jewel4Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 03:54 PM
Just a few questions:

1. There were four governments mentioned in Daniel 2, the first of which was specifically identified as Nebuchadnezzar/Babylon. Then there were four beasts shown in Daniel 7. What objective reason do we have for assuming they are not the same?

2. The parallels between the lion beast in Daniel 7 and Nebuchadnezzar are remarkable. Consider the episode of the lion being given the mind of a human with Nebuchadnezzar's account in Daniel 4. If Daniel 4 is not what the "human mind" episode is referring to, then what is it?

3. The final beast is said to "crush" and "trample" everything under it. How does democracy do this, as opposed to more authoritarian forms of government?

Hi,

Good questions!

I have to run to town and do some errands, and I would really like to give a good reply to this, so, I will have to do so a bit later, but, to make a short reply, in mho, the final beast does crush and trample everything under it, through democracy. Look around you today, what form of government is being forced upon all? Why are democratic nations forcing those whom are not democratic to submit?

You see, it fits perfectly, but one thing is for sure....it too will fail...to bring peace to mankind, because man does not know the way to peace, as the bible says...making peace through war is a total contradiction.

Jesus is the way to peace.

He is the ONLY way to peace...and, without HIS peace, the other types will be shown for what they are, which is why the beast is going to be seen for what it is, eventually.


..and, God will destroy those whom are presently destroying the EARTH by force, with bombs, guns, and ultimately nuclear weapons, will come into play.

peaceandlove,

janet

HisLeast
Jul 1st 2008, 04:04 PM
I have to run to town and do some errands, and I would really like to give a good reply to this, so, I will have to do so a bit later, but, to make a short reply, in mho, the final beast does crush and trample everything under it, through democracy. Look around you today, what form of government is being forced upon all?

Easy. Communism.


Why are democratic nations forcing those whom are not democratic to submit?

Could you provide examples of this?

jewel4Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693127#post1693127)
I have to run to town and do some errands, and I would really like to give a good reply to this, so, I will have to do so a bit later, but, to make a short reply, in mho, the final beast does crush and trample everything under it, through democracy. Look around you today, what form of government is being forced upon all?

Easy. Communism.

Hi,

I understand that some interpret it to be that type of government, and that of itself would have to be shown by the example of the king that was the king of babylon, during the days of old.

Can you show how King Neb was a communist king?

I would love to be able to see that in His word myself, but that is not what I see. What I see is a government that speaks like a lamb...and, that to me would show that it is not communism. We need to remember that satan, whom is the god of this world, and whom the word of God states would send STRONG dilusion, is not likely to deceive the world into worshipping the beast system of government, by looking or appearing to be evil, but, as we read throughout the word of God, he is good at transforming himself into an angel of "LIGHT".

How does communism fit that mold?

Thanks ahead of time.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693127#post1693127)
Why are democratic nations forcing those whom are not democratic to submit?

Could you provide examples of this?

Yes.

The present "democratic" forces are forcing other nations, that they themselves term "evil" empires, to submit to big brother, or they will pay the consequences. The spreading of this false peace that the WORLD offers is not from God, but from the evil one, whom has pulled a very strong dilusion in these last days, in mho.

Now, we can go look at the example of King Neb and see just how he did it back then, and how it compares to what is going on how..

Is that fair enough? .....and, I would be more than happy to see that it could fit some evil government as communism, but the mold simply does not fit.

peaceandlove,

janet

HisLeast
Jul 1st 2008, 06:27 PM
How does communism fit that mold?

You asked: "Look around you today, what form of government is being forced upon all?".

Far and away more people in this world are forced to live under communist governments than any other regime type. I don't have to fit an old testament mold (which incidently, Democracy won't fit either), I was simply answering your question.


The present "democratic" forces are forcing other nations, that they themselves term "evil" empires, to submit to big brother, or they will pay the consequences. The spreading of this false peace that the WORLD offers is not from God, but from the evil one, whom has pulled a very strong dilusion in these last days, in mho.

Again, can you provide examples of this?


Is that fair enough? .....and, I would be more than happy to see that it could fit some evil government as communism, but the mold simply does not fit.

As I don't believe the beast is a methodology of government, I wouldn't try to convince you its communism.

jewel4Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 07:10 PM
Hi,
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693354#post1693354)
How does communism fit that mold?


You asked: "Look around you today, what form of government is being forced upon all?".

Far and away more people in this world are forced to live under communist governments than any other regime type. I don't have to fit an old testament mold (which incidently, Democracy won't fit either), I was simply answering your question.


I believe it will fit, if we look into it. I have not yet had a chance to do that.

You said, "communism" would fit, and I asked you to show that..nothing more, nothing less.

I am here to share a view, not to push it.....;)

You said, that democracy would not fit, either, but I see that it does..and, I will show that eventually, lol.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693354#post1693354)
The present "democratic" forces are forcing other nations, that they themselves term "evil" empires, to submit to big brother, or they will pay the consequences. The spreading of this false peace that the WORLD offers is not from God, but from the evil one, whom has pulled a very strong dilusion in these last days, in mho.


Again, can you provide examples of this?

I will show this in my next post.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693354#post1693354)
Is that fair enough? .....and, I would be more than happy to see that it could fit some evil government as communism, but the mold simply does not fit.


As I don't believe the beast is a methodology of government, I wouldn't try to convince you its communism.
http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1693385)

Ok, then, why not show your view from the word of God, and we can discuss it, or by "not convincing me" do you mean you would not even want to discuss it?

I am confused.

peaceandlove,

janet

BroRog
Jul 1st 2008, 07:36 PM
Janet,

I can't follow the logic of your presentation. And so I can't see how you got your ideas from the passages you quoted.

That being said, I agree with your premise. I would add two things to it.

1. The image of the beast isn't democracy by itself, in my opinion. Rather the image of the beast is capitalism and democracy together.

2. I'm not talking about American style democracy, which is really a republic and contains enough checks and balances to keep democracy safe for our country.

Now, some have mentioned communism as an alternative because communism is evil. Well, I agree communism is evil and communism has spread too, just like democracy.

However, in terms of an "image", capitalism-democracy destroys the indigenous culture, replacing it with Fifth Avenue or Hollywood Culture wherever it goes.

jewel4Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 07:43 PM
Janet,

I can't follow the logic of your presentation. And so I can't see how you got your ideas from the passages you quoted.

That being said, I agree with your premise. I would add two things to it.

1. The image of the beast isn't democracy by itself, in my opinion. Rather the image of the beast is capitalism and democracy together.

2. I'm not talking about American style democracy, which is really a republic and contains enough checks and balances to keep democracy safe for our country.

Now, some have mentioned communism as an alternative because communism is evil. Well, I agree communism is evil and communism has spread too, just like democracy.

However, in terms of an "image", capitalism-democracy destroys the indigenous culture, replacing it with Fifth Avenue or Hollywood Culture wherever it goes.

Hey bro Rog,

Could you elaborate on this quote:


I can't follow the logic of your presentation. And so I can't see how you got your ideas from the passages you quoted.

That being said, I agree with your premise. I would add two things to it.





Did you mean to say in the second bold that you do not agree with my primise? It sounds a bit confusing the way it is written.

Btw,

I agree with what you said about "capitolism/democracy".

That is exactly one point why I see a connection in democracy and the beastly system.

peaceandlove,

janet

pinky
Jul 1st 2008, 07:55 PM
“Democracy is the road to socialism” Karl Marx

BroRog
Jul 1st 2008, 08:02 PM
Hey bro Rog,

Could you elaborate on this quote:



Did you mean to say in the second bold that you do not agree with my primise? It sounds a bit confusing the way it is written.

Btw,

I agree with what you said about "capitolism/democracy".

That is exactly one point why I see a connection in democracy and the beastly system.

peaceandlove,

janet

Janet,

To be explicit, I agree with your idea that the Beast government might be democracy-capitalism.

ProjectPeter
Jul 1st 2008, 08:04 PM
That's it? Honestly? Listen folks... the beast is not a system. The beast is not a computer. The beast is not any such non-tangible object. Computers and systems aren't put in the lake of fire. The beast is. Nor is the beast system democracy. Any reading of Scripture of the beast shows clearly that he is not about democratic systems. Goodness... I honestly don't get this.

fewarechosen
Jul 1st 2008, 08:06 PM
this is going to be interesting.

the thing i see about democracy/capitalism which in my opinion go hand in hand. is how it sells itself -- look you can have whatever you want and it gives in to greed of all kinds , it rewards greed with mammon. it says you can have whatever evil you want just work for it.

i view democracy like a battleship

does a captian ask his whole crew -- ok guys what do you want to do. no because it doesnt work

giving a person the right to vote is very misleading
its like ok you can vote on this issue no matter how ignorant of it you are, just fill in this box

BroRog
Jul 1st 2008, 08:08 PM
“Democracy is the road to socialism” Karl Marx

It certainly can be. An if Janet is right, it's possible that the beast form of democracy will lead to socialism and ultimately humanism. I've always wondered if the number 666 was symbolic for a man-centered philosophy like humanism.

Remember the original temptation? "You will be like God, knowing good and evil." Compare that first temptation with the final antiChrist's proclamation that he is god.

I find the parallel striking.

fewarechosen
Jul 1st 2008, 08:11 PM
also remember --love of money is the root of all evil

and what spreads love of money like democracy/capitalism

BroRog
Jul 1st 2008, 08:27 PM
That's it? Honestly? Listen folks... the beast is not a system. The beast is not a computer. The beast is not any such non-tangible object. Computers and systems aren't put in the lake of fire. The beast is. Nor is the beast system democracy. Any reading of Scripture of the beast shows clearly that he is not about democratic systems. Goodness... I honestly don't get this.

Just to be clear, I believe Janet wasn't suggesting that the Beast itself was a system of some kind. I believe the OP asked about the Beast's government.

I'll give you an example, albeit hypothetical, of how the Beast creates an image of himself all around the world.

Let's begin with a benevolent monarch who has decided to create trade tariffs to protect his citizens from the large corporate powers of the world. In his country, cobblers make shoes by hand and they are of such high quality and beauty many people from all over the world come to buy shoes from his country. A large corporate shoe manufacturer could make the shoes with a machine, and charge less money.

Now, as you may or may not know, capitalism must expand into new markets in order to survive. Without growth or growth potential, a company can not make a profit. So the corporation has three choices, if it desires to expand into our benevolent monarch's country: 1) pay the tariff, 2) ask the monarch to lower his tariff, or 3) replace the monarch with a democracy.

Typically, the corporation will attempt to replace the monarch with a democracy because everyone knows that people, given a choice, will vote to lower prices.

If this happens, all the cobblers will go out of business because hand-made products can not compete with machine-made products if the comparison is strictly based on price. Nonetheless, not only does the corporation put the cobbler out of business, the shoe unique shoe design is lost. What the people buy instead is the same shoe the rest of the world is buying.

The bottom line, the true bottom line is this. Once the corporation removes the competition from a country, everything that made that country a unique place is lost. Everything distinctive about the place is gone, being replaced with a foreign culture -- other people's designs, other people's art, other people's fashion, and the list goes on. The monarchy has changed to a democracy, and the unique culture that once was, has been replaced by a homogeneous bland one.

jewel4Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 08:29 PM
So, as we move onward, I would like to try to show a few things about King Neb.

A little history about him, and how he relates to end time events:

Nebuchadnezzar was a splendid builder, and Babylon (http://www.questia.com/library/encyclopedia/101230848) with its hanging gardens was then the greatest city of the ancient world. However, Babylon was shortly to fall under conquest when Nabonidus was king. The book of Daniel depicts Nebuchadnezzar as a conceited and domineering king and tells of his going mad and eating grass. He is also called Nebuchadrezzar or Nebuchodonosor.

The 10 kings of Rev. 17 describe the ten toes of Nebuchadnezzar's image in Dan. 2.



With the order of the image in Dan 2, being from top to bottom, the toes come in last.


The Kingdom of God comes in it's fullest at the time of these ten toes Dan 2:44, and Rev 17 speak of 10 kings who will be together as one kingdom at the time Jesus returns....(or have one mindset, that is)


Just like in Dan 2, their worldly kingdom is ended by the return of Christ.


They give their power to the "beast" in Rev 17.



(http://www.ucgstp.org/htmlbible2/rev017.htm#V13)
So, it will be a federation in which political entities give power to a common authority. It will include the economic system that will be along side it, or within it.


I believe Rev 18 explains why they will be willing to do this..and, it is due to wanting to spread PROSPERITY.


I do not see that it has anything to do with wanting to spread evil, as we would determine evil..but, as the entity that speaks as a lamb, and as the god of this world is transformed himself into a angel of light, so does the end time beastly system deceive mankind, through the lust of the eyes, and through promoting prosperity, rather than what we would like to think..so, let's look at this and for those whom would think "communism" could fit this scenario, I would like to ask you how.








Rev 18:




And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:2&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:3&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance F28 of her delicacies.


It is democracy that is spreading "abundance" to all nations in the guise of prosperity.

4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:4&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:5&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

How would communism, for example.. fit this scenario, when God's OWN people are in her?..and, He is calling us OUT?

6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:6&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:7&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:8&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.


9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:9&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:10&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:11&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:12&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine F2913 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:13&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, F30 and


"hmmm, souls of men"...from ALL nations, through prosperity! Remember, money is the root of all evil.


souls of men. wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:14&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:15&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:16&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:17&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:18&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:19&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:20&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:21&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:22&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:23&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:24&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


Does satan deceive by appearing to be evil, or by appearing to be something good?


peaceandlove,


janet

fewarechosen
Jul 1st 2008, 08:30 PM
brorog interesting thought as well -- nice way to lay it out

jewel4Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 08:35 PM
Janet,

To be explicit, I agree with your idea that the Beast government might be democracy-capitalism.

Ok, thanks Rog....glad to have you onboard the old democracy/capitalism, end time boat.

We need more oars in the water, as they say.

peaceandlove,

janet

fewarechosen
Jul 1st 2008, 08:38 PM
i dont want to sidetrack with this comment but let us all remember the 10 horns must hate the whore also

weighed
Jul 1st 2008, 08:47 PM
I believe it is. I believe that Jesus foretold us all things.

There are more than one "beast" in the bible, and I believe they all represent a type of "human" government. The last being the government we call "democracy"...that is made in the "image" of the first beast, which is represented as "the king of babylon, which we will get to later", but first I want to set up a standard as to how the last beast will be of the same spirit as the first beast, thereby making an image of the first beast...

What is the first beast?

So, to put this all together we need to understand how the word of God defines these terms.

Pharoah represents the "god" of this world.

Egypt represents "sin" and, his kingdom represents the fallen world...that held "Israel" in bondage, for example.

We must look at the similarities concerning the "beast" that was, and now is, for it is made in that image.

For example:


Ex 9:1

Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me. 2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:2&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For if thou refuse to let them go, and wilt hold them still, 3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:3&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain. 4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:4&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the LORD shall sever between the cattle of Israel and the cattle of Egypt:



(this represents the same thing God is doing today, separating the true sheep from the false. The "field" is the world, as we read in the new covenant.)

and there shall nothing die of all that is the children's of Israel. 5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:5&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the LORD appointed a set time, saying, To morrow the LORD shall do this thing in the land. 6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:6&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the LORD did that thing on the morrow, and all the cattle of Egypt died: but of the cattle of the children of Israel died not one. 7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:7&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go. 8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:8&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the LORD said unto Moses and unto Aaron, Take to you handfuls of ashes of the furnace, and let Moses sprinkle it toward the heaven in the sight of Pharaoh. 9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:9&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And it shall become small dust in all the land of Egypt, and shall be a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast, throughout all the land of Egypt. 10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:10&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And they took ashes of the furnace, and stood before Pharaoh; and Moses sprinkled it up toward heaven; and it became a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast. 11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:11&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all the Egyptians. 12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:12&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:13&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.



(this represents how God's servants today are standing before the god of this world, and, proclaiming "let God's people go", by witness of the testimony of Jesus, His servants, go into all the world/field, speaking before Pharoah/satan, to let 'God's people go'..which means, let them come out of the fallen world, held in bondage through sin/egpt...as we read in revelation, "come out of her My people")
(http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:14&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en)

14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:14&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth. 15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:15&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth. 16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:16&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.



(Here God explains why He raised up "the first beast"...so that it could be shown that all will reap what they sow, and, pestilence, and, etc, are the result of serving satan/pharoah..which is the same as we read in rev. about the beast that will be present at that endtime..and, we can read that in part here: (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:17&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en)


Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. 2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+16:2&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. 3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+16:3&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en)

So, we see the first beast, and the image of the beast have the same outcome.

Back to Exodus 9:


17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:17&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go? 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:18&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Behold, to morrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now. 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:19&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die. 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:20&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) He that feared the word of the LORD among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses: 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+9:21&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And he that regarded F21 not the word of the LORD left his servants and his cattle in the field.




(this shows how some hear the words of the Lord, and respond to His words, while others hear and leave their servants in the field/world)


We are called to come OUT of the world, for it is doomed to destruction, by the sure word of God, through reaping and sowing.


We are eventually going to get to the point about "democracy" being the beast government, as was both the case here, and the case in the end time, but, I am trying to first show that the first beast, was present from the beginning of the fallen world, and, will be likewise in the end time, as the "image" of it...and, we will see how the "king" of that first beast, will also have a "image" made unto him, in the last days, as the king of babylon.


Satan is the god of this world/babylon, but, he did have an earthly king, even in that time period..and, this is what we will study in a few more posts to come.


There is nothing new under the sun, what has been shall be, and the image of the beast is already present in this world, in mho...when speaking of things concerning the fallen world, and it's outcome. There are so many parallells in the old covenant that shed much light on what is going to befall mankind in the end.

More to come.

Peaceandlove,

janet

Hi
I want to start by announcing peace with you and on you.
I have read many of your posts , and so far have enjoyed your stuff.
Please know that when i seek further understanding, and may(or may not)
agree with you, that what I say is not in condemnation or to hurt you, but just walking along a path seeking understanding.

my first opinion, is that not necessarily are all democracies the Anti Christ, but ALL governments are the Anti Christ,not just democracies.

Please comment on this point.

jewel4Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 08:55 PM
It certainly can be. An if Janet is right, it's possible that the beast form of democracy will lead to socialism and ultimately humanism. I've always wondered if the number 666 was symbolic for a man-centered philosophy like humanism.

Remember the original temptation? "You will be like God, knowing good and evil." Compare that first temptation with the final antiChrist's proclamation that he is god.

I find the parallel striking.

Exactly, it is all about how satan is causing man to exalt their flesh, in many ways...

Through pride, as they exalt themselves above others...(as is being done, by democratic nations whom have laid out a plan to destroy what they call the evil axis, turning their eyes away from their own wickedness.

The bible does not teach that one nation is more evil than another. It plainly teaches that all men are sinners, and unless ye repent, ye shall likewise perish. It is "religion" and false theology that has taught men to exalt themselves above others or to determine their brother as more evil than themselves.

Sin is sin.

When you break ONE you are JUST as guilty as IF you broke everyone.

Those whom think they have less sin are deceived.

peaceandlove,

janet

weighed
Jul 1st 2008, 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by BroRog http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693533#post1693533)
It certainly can be. An if Janet is right, it's possible that the beast form of democracy will lead to socialism and ultimately humanism. I've always wondered if the number 666 was symbolic for a man-centered philosophy like humanism.

Remember the original temptation? "You will be like God, knowing good and evil." Compare that first temptation with the final antiChrist's proclamation that he is god.

But isn' t that what happened to Adam and Eve, they did come to know good and evil?

pinky
Jul 1st 2008, 09:04 PM
It certainly can be. An if Janet is right, it's possible that the beast form of democracy will lead to socialism and ultimately humanism. I've always wondered if the number 666 was symbolic for a man-centered philosophy like humanism.


I hate to say it but I do agree with karl marx on this. I tend to think that democracy is a stepping stone toward global communism.

I see that the western, 'democratic' nations have become 'socialized'......even the good ole US of A. We are all under the sphere of the beast system.

Look at what the bolsheviks did to Christian Russia in the Revolution of 1917. This is what they want to do to us too.............and seem to be succeeding.

weighed
Jul 1st 2008, 09:06 PM
Hi,

Good questions!

I have to run to town and do some errands, and I would really like to give a good reply to this, so, I will have to do so a bit later, but, to make a short reply, in mho, the final beast does crush and trample everything under it, through democracy. Look around you today, what form of government is being forced upon all? Why are democratic nations forcing those whom are not democratic to submit?

You see, it fits perfectly, but one thing is for sure....it too will fail...to bring peace to mankind, because man does not know the way to peace, as the bible says...making peace through war is a total contradiction.

Jesus is the way to peace.

He is the ONLY way to peace...and, without HIS peace, the other types will be shown for what they are, which is why the beast is going to be seen for what it is, eventually.


..and, God will destroy those whom are presently destroying the EARTH by force, with bombs, guns, and ultimately nuclear weapons, will come into play.

peaceandlove,

janet

Great answer. I agree with this mostly, I still wonder though about non-demracies, take China for example, is she not also part of the Anti -Christ?
She too can force people to war.

pinky
Jul 1st 2008, 09:10 PM
Also, here is a little challenge for anyone who is interested......


What religion boasts as being the root philisophy of democracy, capitalism, communism, socialism, bolshevism..........??

weighed
Jul 1st 2008, 09:11 PM
As I don't believe the beast is a methodology of government, I wouldn't try to convince you its communism.

People have blamed them for far too long.And it can become a situation of communism verses capitalism.
There are two kingdoms.
One of the world.
The other of the Victor!

jewel4Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 09:12 PM
Hi
I want to start by announcing peace with you and on you.
I have read many of your posts , and so far have enjoyed your stuff.
Please know that when i seek further understanding, and may(or may not)
agree with you, that what I say is not in condemnation or to hurt you, but just walking along a path seeking understanding.

my first opinion, is that not necessarily are all democracies the Anti Christ, but ALL governments are the Anti Christ,not just democracies.

Please comment on this point. http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1693587)

Hi,

I totally understand what you are saying. There are going to be times we as christians disagree...but, we are to speak to one another in love, hoping to grow along together as the Lord permits.....;)

I agree that ALL governments are within the confounds of "antichrist".

Yet, through studying end time events, and relating them to how things were in times past...for worldly things do not change, you see...they only go from what they were, which was born out of a evil heart, to conclude to be shown that way in the end.

It was never God's will for His people to have an earthly king over them.

We can read about that in the old covenant. If it was not originally His will then, I don't understand why so many today would think it is ok today?

With that said, as pertaining to the last days, I find that satan is using democracy to UNITE all nations..into this league of nations that will ultimately be thrown down by God Himself...and, great will be the fall of it, as we read...and, not by some "other" empire that is easily seen as evil to all men, but by guise of deception, as satan is that type of character...:spin:

Why does the bible explain that he deceives by being an angel of LIGHT, if what we are to be looking for is some evil looking entity?

I would like those whom hold to that view to show from their perspective how they came to that conclusion.

As King Neb was a great builder of WORLDLY goods and his kingdom was shown to be a something "fond" to look upon, I just do not see how anyone could think that the so called OTHER evil governments would or could fit that bill.

Anyone have a clue as to why that is the case in the church's stance today?

Thanks in advance.

peaceandlove,

janet

Literalist-Luke
Jul 1st 2008, 09:20 PM
What form of government is being forced upon all?Um, the one that we chose to elect on that second Tuesday in November?
Why are democratic nations forcing those whom are not democratic to submit?You speak in the plural as if this is going on all over the world. It's only happening in two nations, both of whom most Americans would agree presented an imminent threat to the peace and safety of our society. I don't give a flip what kind of government they have, but if some other country is thinking about blowing up my country, I say blow theirs up first.

Besides, our government is NOT a democracy. Our government is a republic. A democracy means that every citizen gets a vote on every issue. Representative government, such as we use, is a "republic".
You see, it fits perfectlyNo, I don't see. If I "saw", I wouldn't be asking these questions. I don't understand how you objectively reached the conclusion that a style of government is what is symbolized by the fourth beast in Daniel 7 when the other three beasts all represent one specific government. You should be naming a specific nation or ruler, not a style of government. The lion is Babylon, the bear is Media/Persia, the leopard is Greece, and the fourth beast is whom?... (And I don't think it's Rome, by the way...)
but one thing is for sure....it too will fail...to bring peace to mankind, because man does not know the way to peace, as the bible says...making peace through war is a total contradiction.Tell that to Jesus at Armageddon. Talk about a war......
Jesus is the way to peace.Through the war of Armageddon.
God will destroy those whom are presently destroying the EARTH by force, with bombs, guns, and ultimately nuclear weapons, will come into play.Ah, so you agree that even God is going to use war. Great. :thumbsup:

Literalist-Luke
Jul 1st 2008, 09:21 PM
Easy. Communism.Huh? The Cold War is over.
Could you provide examples of this?Iraq, Afghanistan

weighed
Jul 1st 2008, 09:24 PM
Hi,



"I agree that ALL governments are within the confounds of "antichrist"."

Ok. I am siding with you, just still need greater clarification.Did you see my post on China, above?
Any comments?

"Yet, through studying end time events, and relating them to how things were in times past...for worldly things do not change, you see...they only go from what they were, which was born out of a evil heart, to conclude to be shown that way in the end."

I'm with you.

"It was never God's will for His people to have an earthly king over them."

AMEN X 7

"With that said, as pertaining to the last days, I find that satan is using democracy to UNITE all nations..into this league of nations that will ultimately be thrown down by God Himself...and, great will be the fall of it, as we read...and, not by some "other" empire that is easily seen as evil to all men, but by guise of deception, as satan is that type of character...":spin:

Why does the bible explain that he deceives by being an angel of LIGHT, if what we are to be looking for is some evil looking entity?"

Good point. I hope others note this point carefully, for tho it is very short, it is very important!

"I would like those whom hold to that view to show from their perspective how they came to that conclusion."

What do you mean here?What perspective?

"As King Neb was a great builder of WORLDLY goods and his kingdom was shown to be a something "fond" to look upon, I just do not see how anyone could think that the so called OTHER evil governments would or could fit that bill."

Sorry, but I've lost you on your last 2 paragraphs.

"Anyone have a clue as to why that is the case in the church's stance today?"

I personaly believe that MOST churches that I know of today are not into this info.Most have a political agenda.Most are into mamon.

Thanks in advance.

peaceandlove,

janet

I posted stuff between your quotes, so you can see which parts I'm refering to.
Thanks

Literalist-Luke
Jul 1st 2008, 09:29 PM
Far and away more people in this world are forced to live under communist governments than any other regime type.I think you mean fascism. Communism means the government actually OWNS the business sector and also directly supervises it. In fascism, the government does not actually own the business sector, but it does exercise a great deal of control. Even Cuba is not truly Communist. They used to be, but they have been increasingly privatizing their business sector (for what it's worth). The only major truly Communist countries today are China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia. And Vietnam and Cambodia are debatable that they qualify as "major". I'm sure there are a few other minor countries, but nobody that could exercise any serious threat to the rest of the world at this point.

Oh, and by the way, China is privatizing as well. They only just barely qualify as a truly Communist country today.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 1st 2008, 09:30 PM
Hi,
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693354#post1693354)
How does communism fit that mold?



I believe it will fit, if we look into it. I have not yet had a chance to do that.

You said, "communism" would fit, and I asked you to show that..nothing more, nothing less.

I am here to share a view, not to push it.....;)

You said, that democracy would not fit, either, but I see that it does..and, I will show that eventually, lol.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693354#post1693354)
The present "democratic" forces are forcing other nations, that they themselves term "evil" empires, to submit to big brother, or they will pay the consequences. The spreading of this false peace that the WORLD offers is not from God, but from the evil one, whom has pulled a very strong dilusion in these last days, in mho.



I will show this in my next post.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693354#post1693354)
Is that fair enough? .....and, I would be more than happy to see that it could fit some evil government as communism, but the mold simply does not fit.


http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1693385)

Ok, then, why not show your view from the word of God, and we can discuss it, or by "not convincing me" do you mean you would not even want to discuss it?

I am confused.

peaceandlove,

janetOK, both of you are saying that your view fits the Scriptures, but neither of you is quoting any. Either put up or.....well, you get the point.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 1st 2008, 09:32 PM
That's it? Honestly? Listen folks... the beast is not a system. The beast is not a computer. The beast is not any such non-tangible object. Computers and systems aren't put in the lake of fire. The beast is. Nor is the beast system democracy. Any reading of Scripture of the beast shows clearly that he is not about democratic systems. Goodness... I honestly don't get this.Thank you. Finally, somebody mentions some Scripture to back up their case.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 1st 2008, 09:34 PM
also remember --love of money is the root of all evil

and what spreads love of money like democracy/capitalismThat's right, dictatorships are never about small groups of people exploiting their entire country for personal gain....

weighed
Jul 1st 2008, 09:36 PM
OK, both of you are saying that your view fits the Scriptures, but neither of you is quoting any. Either put up or.....well, you get the point.

Which two people are you talking about?
And as a senior member, do you truly not know which scriptures support the views posted above?

pinky
Jul 1st 2008, 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by ProjectPeter http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693529#post1693529)
That's it? Honestly? Listen folks... the beast is not a system. The beast is not a computer. The beast is not any such non-tangible object. Computers and systems aren't put in the lake of fire. The beast is. Nor is the beast system democracy. Any reading of Scripture of the beast shows clearly that he is not about democratic systems. Goodness... I honestly don't get this.



The beast implements a religious and political philosophy by which he and his cohorts subdue the earth.......ie, the 'beast system'.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 1st 2008, 09:58 PM
So, as we move onward, I would like to try to show a few things about King Neb.

A little history about him, and how he relates to end time eventsHooray, some Scripture to talk about! :)
Nebuchadnezzar was a splendid builder, and Babylon (http://www.questia.com/library/encyclopedia/101230848) with its hanging gardens was then the greatest city of the ancient world. However, Babylon was shortly to fall under conquest when Nabonidus was king. The book of Daniel depicts Nebuchadnezzar as a conceited and domineering king and tells of his going mad and eating grass. He is also called Nebuchadrezzar or Nebuchodonosor.

The 10 kings of Rev. 17 describe the ten toes of Nebuchadnezzar's image in Dan. 2. OK, I can go along with this. :thumbsup:
With the order of the image in Dan 2, being from top to bottom, the toes come in last. The Kingdom of God comes in it's fullest at the time of these ten toes Dan 2:44, and Rev 17 speak of 10 kings who will be together as one kingdom at the time Jesus returns....(or have one mindset, that is) So far so good….
Just like in Dan 2, their worldly kingdom is ended by the return of Christ.

They give their power to the "beast" in Rev 17.

So, it will be a federation in which political entities give power to a common authority. It will include the economic system that will be along side it, or within it. That’s true, but where are we told to assume the economic system in question will be capitalism?
I believe Rev 18 explains why they will be willing to do this..and, it is due to wanting to spread PROSPERITY. People do prosper under other forms of economic management than just capitalism. Not the common people, but certainly the upper classes.
I do not see that it has anything to do with wanting to spread evil, as we would determine evil..but, as the entity that speaks as a lamb, and as the god of this world is transformed himself into a angel of light, so does the end time beastly system deceive mankind, through the lust of the eyes, and through promoting prosperity, rather than what we would like to think..so, let's look at this and for those whom would think "communism" could fit this scenario, I would like to ask you how. The people of the Middle East are perfectly satisfied to live under the yoke of their Islamic dictatorships. If they weren’t, they would do something about it. Just because people are deceived doesn’t mean it makes them happy.
Rev 18:

And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:2&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:3&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance F28 of her delicacies.


It is democracy that is spreading "abundance" to all nations in the guise of prosperity. You’re assuming it’s the common people who are getting rich from this “abundance”. How do you know it’s not the upper class nobility who are mourning the passing of “Babylon”?
4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:4&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:5&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

How would communism, for example.. fit this scenario, when God's OWN people are in her?..and, He is calling us OUT?Communism doesn’t fit, I agree with you there.
6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:6&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:7&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:8&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:9&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:10&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:11&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:12&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine F2913 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:13&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, F30 and


"hmmm, souls of men"...from ALL nations, through prosperity! Remember, money is the root of all evil.


souls of men. wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:14&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:15&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:16&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:17&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:18&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:19&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:20&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:21&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:22&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:23&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+18:24&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Does satan deceive by appearing to be evil, or by appearing to be something good?

peaceandlove,

janetSo in other words, you’re assuming that because everybody in Revelation 18 appears to like “Babylon” it could only be speaking of capitalism? That’s an awfully big stretch……

The people of Nazi Germany thought Hitler as great. They thought he was the savior of the Fatherland. It wasn’t until after WW2 and the concentration camps were exposed that they found out the awful truth.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 1st 2008, 10:01 PM
Also, here is a little challenge for anyone who is interested......

What religion boasts as being the root philisophy of democracy, capitalism, communism, socialism, bolshevism..........??Not Christianity. Evil people can claim to be "Christian" if they want, but that doesn't make them Christian.

cwb
Jul 1st 2008, 10:06 PM
If democracy is so evil, why are there more Christians in democratic nations than in non democratic nations?

Literalist-Luke
Jul 1st 2008, 10:08 PM
Which two people are you talking about?jewel4christ and HisLeast
And as a senior member, do you truly not know which scriptures support the views posted above?No, I don't, because there are none. That's why I'm trying to get Scriptures posted so we can talk about that.

jewel4Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 10:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693127#post1693127)
What form of government is being forced upon all?


Um, the one that we chose to elect on that second Tuesday in November?

Who is "we"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693127#post1693127)
Why are democratic nations forcing those whom are not democratic to submit?


You speak in the plural as if this is going on all over the world. It's only happening in two nations, both of whom most Americans would agree presented an imminent threat to the peace and safety of our society. I don't give a flip what kind of government they have, but if some other country is thinking about blowing up my country, I say blow theirs up first.

Besides, our government is NOT a democracy. Our government is a republic. A democracy means that every citizen gets a vote on every issue. Representative government, such as we use, is a "republic".

My opinion is that "doing unto others as they would do unto you" comes not from God.

..but, I won't argue with you, if that is your opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693127#post1693127)
You see, it fits perfectly


No, I don't see. If I "saw", I wouldn't be asking these questions. I don't understand how you objectively reached the conclusion that a style of government is what is symbolized by the fourth beast in Daniel 7 when the other three beasts all represent one specific government. You should be naming a specific nation or ruler, not a style of government. The lion is Babylon, the bear is Media/Persia, the leopard is Greece, and the fourth beast is whom?... (And I don't think it's Rome, by the way...)

They all have ONE mind, therefore, and, the bible says they all give their autority to one entity in the last day. I thought I did explain that, but I do understand how this can be sooo hard to follow at times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693127#post1693127)
but one thing is for sure....it too will fail...to bring peace to mankind, because man does not know the way to peace, as the bible says...making peace through war is a total contradiction.


Tell that to Jesus at Armageddon. Talk about a war......

Jesus is coming to battle with a different type of sword, the word of God, and not by carnal warfare, would be my answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693127#post1693127)
Jesus is the way to peace.


Through the war of Armageddon.

You are aware that it is satan that is leading man there, aren't you? ..or are you of the mindset that the spirit of frogs refer to Jesus?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693127#post1693127)
God will destroy those whom are presently destroying the EARTH by force, with bombs, guns, and ultimately nuclear weapons, will come into play.


Ah, so you agree that even God is going to use war. Great. :thumbsup:

Yeah, spiritual type...with the sword of His mouth. His sword is HIS WORD.

....and, by it, all men will be judged.

peaceandlove,

janet

http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1693631)

fewarechosen
Jul 1st 2008, 10:11 PM
If democracy is so evil, why are there more Christians in democratic nations than in non democratic nations?


this is where the thread could start to stray , so be carefull all.

lets not take things personal -- democracy is just a government type - no one is attacking the individuals
or anything else like that

jewel4Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 10:50 PM
Hi Weighed,


Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693620#post1693620)
Hi,



"I agree that ALL governments are within the confounds of "antichrist"."



Ok. I am siding with you, just still need greater clarification.Did you see my post on China, above?Any comments?

Yes, thanks. I believe, eventually all nations will be won over by the beast system....and, won over due to lust. Lust for money, and prosperity, and as I said, I believe that democracy is the tool being used to "unite" nations. It is the only government that appears as good, in mho.





"Yet, through studying end time events, and relating them to how things were in times past...for worldly things do not change, you see...they only go from what they were, which was born out of a evil heart, to conclude to be shown that way in the end."


I'm with you.

;)


"It was never God's will for His people to have an earthly king over them."




AMEN X 7

;)


"With that said, as pertaining to the last days, I find that satan is using democracy to UNITE all nations..into this league of nations that will ultimately be thrown down by God Himself...and, great will be the fall of it, as we read...and, not by some "other" empire that is easily seen as evil to all men, but by guise of deception, as satan is that type of character...":spin:

Why does the bible explain that he deceives by being an angel of LIGHT, if what we are to be looking for is some evil looking entity?"




Good point. I hope others note this point carefully, for tho it is very short, it is very important!

:idea: kinda like a lightbulb going off, eh?


"I would like those whom hold to that view to show from their perspective how they came to that conclusion."




What do you mean here?What perspective?

That the beast system would appear as evil, as most teach...(Iragu, etc) when the bible paints a different picture about how satan works.


"As King Neb was a great builder of WORLDLY goods and his kingdom was shown to be a something "fond" to look upon, I just do not see how anyone could think that the so called OTHER evil governments would or could fit that bill."


Sorry, but I've lost you on your last 2 paragraphs.

I was just expanding the first thought..satan does not deceive by appearing as evil.


"Anyone have a clue as to why that is the case in the church's stance today?"


I personaly believe that MOST churches that I know of today are not into this info.Most have a political agenda.Most are into mamon.


I agree.




peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 10:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectPeter http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693529#post1693529)
That's it? Honestly? Listen folks... the beast is not a system. The beast is not a computer. The beast is not any such non-tangible object. Computers and systems aren't put in the lake of fire. The beast is. Nor is the beast system democracy. Any reading of Scripture of the beast shows clearly that he is not about democratic systems. Goodness... I honestly don't get this.


Thank you. Finally, somebody mentions some Scripture to back up their case.
http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1693641)

Did he delete the scripture references ? :D

peaceandlove,

janet

quiet dove
Jul 1st 2008, 11:53 PM
Quote:

Originally Posted by ProjectPeter http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693529#post1693529)
That's it? Honestly? Listen folks... the beast is not a system. The beast is not a computer. The beast is not any such non-tangible object. Computers and systems aren't put in the lake of fire. The beast is. Nor is the beast system democracy. Any reading of Scripture of the beast shows clearly that he is not about democratic systems. Goodness... I honestly don't get this.



Did he delete the scripture references ? :D

peaceandlove,

janet

Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

BroRog
Jul 2nd 2008, 12:14 AM
I hate to say it but I do agree with karl marx on this. I tend to think that democracy is a stepping stone toward global communism.

I see that the western, 'democratic' nations have become 'socialized'......even the good ole US of A. We are all under the sphere of the beast system.

Look at what the bolsheviks did to Christian Russia in the Revolution of 1917. This is what they want to do to us too.............and seem to be succeeding.

Remember Pinky, Communism is only one form of socialism. :)

BroRog
Jul 2nd 2008, 12:27 AM
If democracy is so evil, why are there more Christians in democratic nations than in non democratic nations?

I wouldn't say democracy is evil in every case. Democracy can either be good or bad depending whether it has proper safeguards against abuse. The founding fathers made democracy safe for the United States by setting up certain safeguards. For instance, they split the power up into three parts: the legislative branch, the judicial branch, and the executive branch. And they made each branch responsible to the others through checks and balances. In addition, they wrote into the constitution a "Bill of rights" to protect the rights of the individual.

The worst form of democracy is mob rule. For instance, a lynch mob is a democracy with only one dissenting vote. :) Democracies need to be structured to protect the individual against the majority.

But even our democracy has dangers. For instance, Tocqueville wrote that a democracy can degenerate into an oligarchy in which a select few elitist rule the country by fiat. Right now, in my opinion, The United States Supreme Court is on the verge of doing just that. It takes vigilance and commitment to keep a democracy from degenerating.

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 01:46 AM
Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

In this interpretation are ya'll saying that the beast here is a "man", or something of that nature?..and, if not, what is your interpretation of the "beast"?



Thanks advance.

The reason I ask is because how can a man have ten heads and seven horns?

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:00 AM
I see it like this, in context:

Rev 19:

17 Then I saw an F225 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F225) angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all R965 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R965) the birds which fly in midheaven, R966 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R966) "Come, R967 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R967) assemble for the great supper of God, 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19:18&sr=1&t=nas) so that you may eat R968 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R968) the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders F226 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F226) and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both R969 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R969) free men and slaves, and small R970 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R970) and great."
19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19:19&sr=1&t=nas) And I saw the R971 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R971) beast and the R972 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R972) kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat R973 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R973) on the horse and against His army.


20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19:20&sr=1&t=nas) And the beast was seized, and with him the false R974 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R974) prophet who performed R975 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R975) the signs in R976 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R976) F227 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F227) his presence, by which he deceived R977 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R977) those who had received the mark R978 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R978) of the beast and those who worshiped R979 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R979) his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake R980 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R980) of fire R981 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R981) which burns with brimstone. F228 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F228) 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19:21&sr=1&t=nas) And the rest were killed with the sword which came R982 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R982) from the mouth of Him who sat R983 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R983) on the horse, and all R984 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R984) the birds were filled with their flesh.

The beast itself includes those whom worship it:

..and, here we see reference to that, again:

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


Includes more than just two men, for example.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

..but, I would like to hear how ya'll determine it to be "one person"?

peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:06 AM
I see it like this, in context:

Rev 19:

17 Then I saw an F225 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F225) angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all R965 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R965) the birds which fly in midheaven, R966 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R966) "Come, R967 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R967) assemble for the great supper of God, 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19:18&sr=1&t=nas) so that you may eat R968 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R968) the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders F226 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F226) and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both R969 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R969) free men and slaves, and small R970 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R970) and great."
19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19:19&sr=1&t=nas) And I saw the R971 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R971) beast and the R972 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R972) kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat R973 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R973) on the horse and against His army.


20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19:20&sr=1&t=nas) And the beast was seized, and with him the false R974 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R974) prophet who performed R975 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R975) the signs in R976 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R976) F227 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F227) his presence, by which he deceived R977 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R977) those who had received the mark R978 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R978) of the beast and those who worshiped R979 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R979) his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake R980 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R980) of fire R981 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R981) which burns with brimstone. F228 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F228) 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19:21&sr=1&t=nas) And the rest were killed with the sword which came R982 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R982) from the mouth of Him who sat R983 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R983) on the horse, and all R984 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R984) the birds were filled with their flesh.

The beast itself includes those whom worship it:

..and, here we see reference to that, again:

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


Includes more than just two men, for example.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

..but, I would like to hear how ya'll determine it to be "one person"?

peaceandlove,

janet



Problem is... the very passage you posted calls the beast a "him" and not an "it" as you present it. ;)

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:23 AM
Problem is... the very passage you posted calls the beast a "him" and not an "it" as you present it. ;)

http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1693923)

Hi PP, I understand that, but this is a symbolic book, and it also calls the "church" for example a "she", and the unbelievers amongst them a "whore"...as do other new covenant books, when referring to a symbol of something. The bible is full of this type of thing, when speaking of prophecy.

I just gave scripture that shows that there are alot more than TWO beings going into the lake of fire.



So, I don't think that is any different.

I would like your opinion of what the beast is then?

peaceandlove,

janet

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:27 AM
In this interpretation are ya'll saying that the beast here is a "man", or something of that nature?..and, if not, what is your interpretation of the "beast"?



Thanks advance.

The reason I ask is because how can a man have ten heads and seven horns?

peaceandlove,

janet

yea i agree with you there , or else hes gonna be really easy to spot lol

Literalist-Luke
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:39 AM
Who is "we"?“We” are the citizens who voted for the representatives who form our government, who voted to ratify the Constitution that forms our government, and who voted to place the people in office who are currently serving. The government we have is one that was elected by the people. Nothing has been forced on us that we did not choose for ourselves. That’s a very sad fact, considering the state our country is in today, but it’s still true.
My opinion is that "doing unto others as they would do unto you" comes not from God.

..but, I won't argue with you, if that is your opinion.It’s not just my opinion. You’re also arguing with the Bible and the apostle Paul. The Golden Rule applies to individual people, not nations. Otherwise, what was Paul speaking of in Romans 13:4 when he said “rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.” If a nation that is planning to murder another nation’s citizens by an act of terrorism isn’t a “wrongdoer” then what on earth qualifies as a wrongdoer? That is not just my opinion. That is a quote from the Bible.
They all have ONE mind, therefore, and, the bible says they all give their autority to one entity in the last day. I thought I did explain that, but I do understand how this can be sooo hard to follow at times.It’s not hard to follow at all, I understand exactly what you are suggesting. You’re saying that “democracy” (which does not exist in the world at this moment because there is no true democratic government anywhere, including the USA) crushes people underfoot and “tramples” them. But then you offer absolutely no explanation about how “democracy” accomplishes this. Sure, sure you say that “democracy” is “forcing those whom are not democratic to submit”, no doubt in reference to Iraq and Afghanistan (which I’m having to guess at since you never answered HisLeast’s question about that), but how is that any worse than, for instance, Germany invading Poland, France, Norway, Czechoslovakia, Russia, Holland…….

I’m not going to sit here and tell you that the USA was right for invading Afghanistan and Iraq. In fact, I disagree with that action for reasons that I won’t go into here. But you are so completely ignoring the fact that there have been other FAR more reprehensible examples throughout history of international hegemony than the USA is guilty of that your case has no credibility. You are going to have to explain why our actions today in the Middle East are to be seen as more aggressive than those of other nations such as Nazi Germany or the USSR in eastern Europe for your case to stick.
Jesus is coming to battle with a different type of sword, the word of God, and not by carnal warfare, would be my answer.From Zechariah 14 & Revelation 14 –

“ This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another. Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps. Blood flowed out, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 180 miles.”

Not “carnal” warfare? Perhaps you could explain the difference. This sure sound to me like it’s going to be worse than the worst poison gas attack that man has ever launched. This sounds almost like a nuclear attack. I agree that Jesus will be attacking with the “sword that come out of His mouth”, but the results are still going to be pretty durn bloody.
You are aware that it is satan that is leading man there, aren't you? ..or are you of the mindset that the spirit of frogs refer to Jesus? No, you’re right, Satan will be leading the forces of man at Armageddon, through the Antichrist. That doesn’t negate the fact that God/Jesus will be using the most violent warfare in the history of the world when this happens. And that violence will be directed at the humans gathered there, as you see in the Zechariah/Revelation quote above.
Yeah, spiritual type...with the sword of His mouth. His sword is HIS WORD.

....and, by it, all men will be judged.Very true, but then what are the results of that judgment? Violence against the forces of evil. Evil can’t be eradicated by being nice to it. It has to be exterminated. And that is precisely what will happen at Armageddon.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:44 AM
I should clarify that I'm not trying to be "pro-America" here. The Bible says that every single nation in the world is going to come against Israel and God at the end, and that includes America. We are nothing special in the Bible and I don't consider us "superior" to any other nation. My point in this thread is that "democracy" is not the fourth beast. I don't care if you're talking about America, British, French, German, Canadian, or Martian democracy. It's all the same. (It's also all NOT a democracy, but rather a "republic".) And it's all NOT the fourth beast. The fourth beast is a specific government/empire, regardless of what form(s) it takes. (And it ain't Rome, by the way.)

Literalist-Luke
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:47 AM
In this interpretation are ya'll saying that the beast here is a "man", or something of that nature?..and, if not, what is your interpretation of the "beast"? The reason I ask is because how can a man have ten heads and seven horns?The beast is a government that is symbolized with ten heads and seven horns, among other things. At the end, that government will be headed by one man, the Antichrist. He will be thrown in the Lake of Fire along with his sidekick, the False Prophet.

quiet dove
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:49 AM
In this interpretation are ya'll saying that the beast here is a "man", or something of that nature?..and, if not, what is your interpretation of the "beast"?

Thanks advance.

The reason I ask is because how can a man have ten heads and seven horns?

peaceandlove,

janet

Yes, I see the Beast as a him. We have the ten horns explained in Revelation so we know that the description is symbolic of the nature, character, power, government or world powers are what is described by this beast. This beast is used like in Daniel to describe the powers/kingdoms of the world. As nothing to do with describing physically the wicked leader that those kings will submit their authority to.
Rev 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.

Also, a little further in the previous verses I quoted, we see that not all the unjust of mankind who are killed with the sword are at that time also thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

A little later in Rev 20 we are given more information about "the rest"
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:52 AM
I see it like this, in context:

Rev 19:

17 Then I saw an F225 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F225) angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all R965 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R965) the birds which fly in midheaven, R966 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R966) "Come, R967 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R967) assemble for the great supper of God, 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19:18&sr=1&t=nas) so that you may eat R968 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R968) the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders F226 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F226) and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both R969 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R969) free men and slaves, and small R970 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R970) and great."
19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19:19&sr=1&t=nas) And I saw the R971 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R971) beast and the R972 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R972) kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat R973 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R973) on the horse and against His army.


20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19:20&sr=1&t=nas) And the beast was seized, and with him the false R974 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R974) prophet who performed R975 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R975) the signs in R976 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R976) F227 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F227) his presence, by which he deceived R977 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R977) those who had received the mark R978 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R978) of the beast and those who worshiped R979 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R979) his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake R980 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R980) of fire R981 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R981) which burns with brimstone. F228 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F228) 21 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19:21&sr=1&t=nas) And the rest were killed with the sword which came R982 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R982) from the mouth of Him who sat R983 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R983) on the horse, and all R984 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+19&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R984) the birds were filled with their flesh.

The beast itself includes those whom worship it:

..and, here we see reference to that, again:

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


Includes more than just two men, for example.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

..but, I would like to hear how ya'll determine it to be "one person"?2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 - "That day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

Athanasius
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:55 AM
The Beast and democracy? Of course not...
Take one of Histories lessons... When you remove God, you wind up with Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pat, Mao Tse-tung... The Beast is tyranny.

And by the way, brush up on 1984...

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:01 AM
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693699#post1693699)
My opinion is that "doing unto others as they would do unto you" comes not from God.

..but, I won't argue with you, if that is your opinion.


It’s not just my opinion. You’re also arguing with the Bible and the apostle Paul. I suppose you have a right to that opinion.


The Golden Rule applies to individual people, not nations. Otherwise, what was Paul speaking of in Romans 13:4 when he said “rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.” If a nation that is planning to murder another nation’s citizens by an act of terrorism isn’t a “wrongdoer” then what on earth qualifies as a wrongdoer? That is not just my opinion. That is a quote from the Bible.How can the golden rule apply ONLY to individuals, for CHRISTIANS?

What you are then saying would go against the whole concept...how can you apply the golden rule to one person, and not all? How do you pick and choose to whom you would apply the golden rule? That does not make sense..to me.

Rom 13 is about how earthly governments were established by God, because of the evil in man's heart. We must read the bible in context, and He uses those earthly governments to fulfill a very particular part of His plan...which is fulfilled through reaping and sowing. For example, if a person is in power in an earthly kingdom, and he decides to take vengeance on his enemy, the bible says vengeance begets MORE vengeance, so likewise, God is held true, while every man is a liar..and, in the outcome, that same person whom sowed violence, SHALL reap it. Would you want to argue with God?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693699#post1693699)
They all have ONE mind, therefore, and, the bible says they all give their autority to one entity in the last day. I thought I did explain that, but I do understand how this can be sooo hard to follow at times.


It’s not hard to follow at all, I understand exactly what you are suggesting. You’re saying that “democracy” (which does not exist in the world at this moment because there is no true democratic government anywhere, including the USA) crushes people underfoot and “tramples” them. But then you offer absolutely no explanation about how “democracy” accomplishes this. Sure, sure you say that “democracy” is “forcing those whom are not democratic to submit”, no doubt in reference to Iraq and Afghanistan (which I’m having to guess at since you never answered HisLeast’s question about that), but how is that any worse than, for instance, Germany invading Poland, France, Norway, Czechoslovakia, Russia, Holland……. All those you just mentioned are either turning to democracy, or are already among it.

Do some research..bro.




I’m not going to sit here and tell you that the USA was right for invading Afghanistan and Iraq. In fact, I disagree with that action for reasons that I won’t go into here. But you are so completely ignoring the fact that there have been other FAR more reprehensible examples throughout history of international hegemony than the USA is guilty of that your case has no credibility. You are going to have to explain why our actions today in the Middle East are to be seen as more aggressive than those of other nations such as Nazi Germany or the USSR in eastern Europe for your case to stick.I don't think you understand reaping and sowing...this world has been on that course since God proclaimed it..and, violence produces more violence, and Jesus said, nation would come against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and all because they sow discord amongst each other.

I suppose Jesus was wrong?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693699#post1693699)
Jesus is coming to battle with a different type of sword, the word of God, and not by carnal warfare, would be my answer.


From Zechariah 14 & Revelation 14 –

“ This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. On that day people will be stricken by the Lord with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another.Do you see the bold? This is how it is accomplished, and the plague is the nuclear warheads...does Jesus bomb mankind?


Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps. Blood flowed out, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 180 miles.”

Not “carnal” warfare? Is JUDAH Jesus?




Perhaps you could explain the difference. This sure sound to me like it’s going to be worse than the worst poison gas attack that man has ever launched. This sounds almost like a nuclear attack. I agree that Jesus will be attacking with the “sword that come out of His mouth”, but the results are still going to be pretty durn bloody.It is a nuclear attack. Jesus works His wrath on man, by letting them hang themselves, for He cannot be tempted with evil, as the bible states.

When He returns, He will fight as in the day of battle, with the TRUE sword, and all men shall see Him.

We need to understand, in mho that His sword is NOT a earthly type sword, it is the WORD OF GOD.....and, the bible says IT is even sharper than any earthly type...it cuts to the soul...but, that is symbolic language, it means, it brings forth judgement of the soul.

So, we disagree..


Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693699#post1693699)
You are aware that it is satan that is leading man there, aren't you? ..or are you of the mindset that the spirit of frogs refer to Jesus?


No, you’re right, Satan will be leading the forces of man at Armageddon, through the Antichrist. That doesn’t negate the fact that God/Jesus will be using the most violent warfare in the history of the world when this happens. And that violence will be directed at the humans gathered there, as you see in the Zechariah/Revelation quote above.If satan is leading it, he is the one responsible...God allows him to do this, to fulfill His will/judgments..for He personally cannot be tempted with evil....I think we should just agree to disagree and move on...bro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693699#post1693699)
Yeah, spiritual type...with the sword of His mouth. His sword is HIS WORD.

....and, by it, all men will be judged.


Very true, but then what are the results of that judgment? Violence against the forces of evil. Evil can’t be eradicated by being nice to it. It has to be exterminated. And that is precisely what will happen at Armageddon. http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1693968)Yep, violence breeds more violence, but let's not say that God is a God of violence, He simply sits back and watches it all......knowing from the beginning that is the way man would go...so, He set it in motion anyway, and proclaimed, "every man shall reap what he sows" as a warning to us all, but today, no one seems to think He meant it.

It is MAN that is sowing the violence, bro..

Man will reap it, and destruction will come...He is coming to destroy them that ARE destroying the earth, with their manmade rules...He will destroy them how? With the BRIGHTNESS of HIS COMING.

That is what it DOES say.

Let's not add to it.

Man cannot SEE GOD AND LIVE..remember?

peaceandlove,

janet

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:05 AM
someone posted this
I’m not going to sit here and tell you that the USA was right for invading Afghanistan and Iraq. In fact, I disagree with that action for reasons that I won’t go into here. But you are so completely ignoring the fact that there have been other FAR more reprehensible examples throughout history of international hegemony than the USA is guilty of that your case has no credibility. You are going to have to explain why our actions today in the Middle East are to be seen as more aggressive than those of other nations such as Nazi Germany or the USSR in eastern Europe for your case to stick.

the only difference i see - is democracy comes like a lamb, and convinces people its a good thing, it uses a little war and a whole bunch of sugar to make it seem sweet - the people being taken over by it like it -- they say wow we get to fornicate with earthly goods even better than before --cooool

evil is a house divided- if it wasnt it would stand

evil attacks evil all day

but good does not attack good

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:09 AM
..but, I would like to hear how ya'll determine it to be "one person"?




2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 - "That day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

I believe that is the false prophet....but, includes all false prophets.

peaceandlove,

janet

quiet dove
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:10 AM
The thing is, regardless of whether or not a democracy is run properly or improperly, that does not make it the coming world leader, it simply does not fit the description. How does Satan give his authority to democracy, there must be a leader. How do the ten kings give their authority to democracy, there must be a leader.

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:11 AM
someone posted this
I’m not going to sit here and tell you that the USA was right for invading Afghanistan and Iraq. In fact, I disagree with that action for reasons that I won’t go into here. But you are so completely ignoring the fact that there have been other FAR more reprehensible examples throughout history of international hegemony than the USA is guilty of that your case has no credibility. You are going to have to explain why our actions today in the Middle East are to be seen as more aggressive than those of other nations such as Nazi Germany or the USSR in eastern Europe for your case to stick.

the only difference i see - is democracy comes like a lamb, and convinces people its a good thing, it uses a little war and a whole bunch of sugar to make it seem sweet - the people being taken over by it like it -- they say wow we get to fornicate with earthly goods even better than before --cooool

evil is a house divided- if it wasnt it would stand

evil attacks evil all day

but good does not attack good

:idea:

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:22 AM
The thing is, regardless of whether or not a democracy is run properly or improperly, that does not make it the coming world leader, it simply does not fit the description. How does Satan give his authority to democracy, there must be a leader. How do the ten kings give their authority to democracy, there must be a leader.
http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1694023)

Hi Quietdove,

The world leader is satan, the god of this present world. He influences man to exalt the flesh...that is his "game"...however, I am not against an idea that there could come an endtime "antichrist", who sits in the temple of God, (the true one that is, not some already apostacised stone one), and exalts himself before God and God's people. It could happen....but, men do it everyday, just by refusing to humble themselves before the Lord...and, it is worse when you are a christian.

We all do this from time to time, but through Christ we are learning humilty...the difference is when it is done in ignorance, God can forgive, but if it is done willfully, there remains no more sacrifice for sins...for that type of person has recrucified Christ, as we read.

Satan gives his authority to democracy because by his authority, as the god of this present evil world, he rules over the kingdoms of men.

ALL of them, NOT just the one's that look evil to us, but the one's that speak as a lamb, but inside they are ravaging wolves....as Jesus said. (I am not speaking of an individual, I am speaking of the entity we call "democracy"..some forms of government look bad through and through, and some look good on the OUTside, but inside they are white washed tombs, and this is the TYPE Jesus warned us about...Don't you wonder why?


peaceandlove,

janet

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:29 AM
The thing is, regardless of whether or not a democracy is run properly or improperly, that does not make it the coming world leader, it simply does not fit the description. How does Satan give his authority to democracy, there must be a leader. How do the ten kings give their authority to democracy, there must be a leader.


just to put 2 cents in -- satan who is the father of the wicked , could have all his wicked vote a certain way thus he is giving authority to a democracy.

the wicked do thier fathers works also

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:40 AM
Hi quietdove,


Yes, I see the Beast as a him. We have the ten horns explained in Revelation so we know that the description is symbolic of the nature, character, power, government or world powers are what is described by this beast.

Revelation says the ten horns are ten kings..?


This beast is used like in Daniel to describe the powers/kingdoms of the world. As nothing to do with describing physically the wicked leader that those kings will submit their authority to.
Rev 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.

I am not understanding what you are saying, because it says plainly the ten horns are ten kings..am I misunderstanding you?

Thanks in advance.


Also, a little further in the previous verses I quoted, we see that not all the unjust of mankind who are killed with the sword are at that time also thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

A little later in Rev 20 we are given more information about "the rest"
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

I don't want to derail this thread about 'the rest of the dead', so..sorry, I brought that up in my last post.

There are varying differences of opinions as to whom the "rest of the dead" symbolise, is what I am trying to say.

Back to the "beast".

I kinda feel like it cannot be a "he", literally, as in one person, because the description says the ten horns are ten kings.

peaceandlove,

janet

HisLeast
Jul 2nd 2008, 04:21 AM
Huh? The Cold War is over.Iraq, Afghanistan

Jeeze... how many times do I have to explain this? She asked which government is being FORCED on people all over the world. The answer is simple: communism. Iraq was a democracy (though not a very good one) before we ever got there. Afghanistan... well... whatever. But compare that to the 1.5 Billlion Chinese under communist rule, millions of North Koreans, millions of central Americans, and those living in its shadow (south Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, segments of Eastern Europe). Its almost laughable to say that Democracy is being spread at the tip of the sword. It just isn't.

HisLeast
Jul 2nd 2008, 04:23 AM
Additionally, if the Antichrist is a system of government, specifically democracy, does that mean that the Antichrist existed before Christ? The Greeks were practicing democratic forms of governance prior to the birth of Christ.

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:29 AM
http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1693923)

Hi PP, I understand that, but this is a symbolic book, and it also calls the "church" for example a "she", and the unbelievers amongst them a "whore"...as do other new covenant books, when referring to a symbol of something. The bible is full of this type of thing, when speaking of prophecy.

I just gave scripture that shows that there are alot more than TWO beings going into the lake of fire.



So, I don't think that is any different.

I would like your opinion of what the beast is then?

peaceandlove,

janet
But look elsewhere.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

Now Paul had ample opportunity in this non-symbolic writing to tell us about a system or "them", "they", "whatever." His non-symbolic language sounds pretty much like a man eh?

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:35 AM
yea i agree with you there , or else hes gonna be really easy to spot lolJesus too should have been easy to spot but God blinded them. Bible says the same about folks in the last days They too will be blind and not see.

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:37 AM
Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693699#post1693699)
My opinion is that "doing unto others as they would do unto you" comes not from God.

..but, I won't argue with you, if that is your opinion.

I suppose you have a right to that opinion.

How can the golden rule apply ONLY to individuals, for CHRISTIANS?

What you are then saying would go against the whole concept...how can you apply the golden rule to one person, and not all? How do you pick and choose to whom you would apply the golden rule? That does not make sense..to me.

Rom 13 is about how earthly governments were established by God, because of the evil in man's heart. We must read the bible in context, and He uses those earthly governments to fulfill a very particular part of His plan...which is fulfilled through reaping and sowing. For example, if a person is in power in an earthly kingdom, and he decides to take vengeance on his enemy, the bible says vengeance begets MORE vengeance, so likewise, God is held true, while every man is a liar..and, in the outcome, that same person whom sowed violence, SHALL reap it. Would you want to argue with God?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693699#post1693699)
They all have ONE mind, therefore, and, the bible says they all give their autority to one entity in the last day. I thought I did explain that, but I do understand how this can be sooo hard to follow at times.

All those you just mentioned are either turning to democracy, or are already among it.

Do some research..bro.



I don't think you understand reaping and sowing...this world has been on that course since God proclaimed it..and, violence produces more violence, and Jesus said, nation would come against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and all because they sow discord amongst each other.

I suppose Jesus was wrong?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693699#post1693699)
Jesus is coming to battle with a different type of sword, the word of God, and not by carnal warfare, would be my answer.

Do you see the bold? This is how it is accomplished, and the plague is the nuclear warheads...does Jesus bomb mankind?

Is JUDAH Jesus?



It is a nuclear attack. Jesus works His wrath on man, by letting them hang themselves, for He cannot be tempted with evil, as the bible states.

When He returns, He will fight as in the day of battle, with the TRUE sword, and all men shall see Him.

We need to understand, in mho that His sword is NOT a earthly type sword, it is the WORD OF GOD.....and, the bible says IT is even sharper than any earthly type...it cuts to the soul...but, that is symbolic language, it means, it brings forth judgement of the soul.

So, we disagree..


Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693699#post1693699)
You are aware that it is satan that is leading man there, aren't you? ..or are you of the mindset that the spirit of frogs refer to Jesus?

If satan is leading it, he is the one responsible...God allows him to do this, to fulfill His will/judgments..for He personally cannot be tempted with evil....I think we should just agree to disagree and move on...bro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1693699#post1693699)
Yeah, spiritual type...with the sword of His mouth. His sword is HIS WORD.

....and, by it, all men will be judged.

Yep, violence breeds more violence, but let's not say that God is a God of violence, He simply sits back and watches it all......knowing from the beginning that is the way man would go...so, He set it in motion anyway, and proclaimed, "every man shall reap what he sows" as a warning to us all, but today, no one seems to think He meant it.

It is MAN that is sowing the violence, bro..

Man will reap it, and destruction will come...He is coming to destroy them that ARE destroying the earth, with their manmade rules...He will destroy them how? With the BRIGHTNESS of HIS COMING.

That is what it DOES say.

Let's not add to it.

Man cannot SEE GOD AND LIVE..remember?

peaceandlove,

janet
That sword Jesus wields... the end result will be a lot of dead folk. Lots of them. He's not wielding the "Word." This sword slays men.

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:41 AM
I believe that is the false prophet....but, includes all false prophets.

peaceandlove,

janet
And where is the false prophet described such as this? And Paul certainly isn't speaking of "all false prophets" in that letter. It is a very specific subject matter.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.


Paul is clearly talking about the last days and slaying this joker. This is a very specific subject he is speaking of.... the last days.

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 12:39 PM
Jeeze... how many times do I have to explain this? She asked which government is being FORCED on people all over the world. The answer is simple: communism. Iraq was a democracy (though not a very good one) before we ever got there. Afghanistan... well... whatever. But compare that to the 1.5 Billlion Chinese under communist rule, millions of North Koreans, millions of central Americans, and those living in its shadow (south Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, segments of Eastern Europe). Its almost laughable to say that Democracy is being spread at the tip of the sword. It just isn't.

If it gets wider spread, will you accept that it is possible?

I have been reading how it is spreading like wildfire.

Yet, I like to think that "time" will tell......;)

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 12:44 PM
Additionally, if the Antichrist is a system of government, specifically democracy, does that mean that the Antichrist existed before Christ? The Greeks were practicing democratic forms of governance prior to the birth of Christ.

Yep, now, we are seeing it in what the bible call's "the image of the beast".

Have a good day..and, God bless.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 12:49 PM
But look elsewhere.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

Now Paul had ample opportunity in this non-symbolic writing to tell us about a system or "them", "they", "whatever." His non-symbolic language sounds pretty much like a man eh?

Hi PP,

As I have already stated, I am not against the idea that this end time "beastly system" will not a literal king over it.

In fact, I am moreso persuaded that it will play out just like in times of OLD..whereas in times of old, King Neb was that king, but, there were also many kings over time, that played the same role. Pharoah was one.

I just do not believe it will be a literal stone temple that he will defile, but the new covenant, fulfillment, of a man sitting in the temple of God, the true temple, the assembly of the believers. In some ways, this is already being accomplished by false teachers whom are denying the blood that bought them, by denying the new covenant...but, it is not in it's fullness yet...for as I see it, it will culminate until it is blasphemy against the holy spirit.

peaceandlove,

janet

peaceandlove,

janet

pinky
Jul 2nd 2008, 12:50 PM
Hi sis.

I tend to see democracy as one of several vehicles that is being used to help usher in the beast kingdom.

Love you in Christ,
pinky

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 01:04 PM
That sword Jesus wields... the end result will be a lot of dead folk. Lots of them. He's not wielding the "Word." This sword slays men. http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1694300)We agree there will be dead bodies, etc.

It is in HOW it is accomplished that we are disagreeing on.

Here is how it will be accomplished according to the word of God, as I see it, and as many other christians, also....:D..as it was in the PAST, so shall it be in the future....reaping and sowing:

2 Chron 36

14Furthermore, all the officials of the priests and the people were very unfaithful following all the abominations of the nations; and they defiled the house of the LORD


(this is the abomination of desolation, as it occurred in the old covenant shadow. In the new covenant REALITY, it will be in the same way, but by the spiritual fulfillment, meaning, it won't be a physical house again, but within the confounds of God's spiritual house...and, men are defiling the temple of God, everyday...through their false teachings, etc..and, through their acts of rebellion against the Lord)

which He had sanctified in Jerusalem. 15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36:15&sr=1&t=nas) The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent R792 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R792) word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place; 16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36:16&sr=1&t=nas) but they continually mocked R793 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R793) the messengers of God, despised R794 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R794) His words and scoffed at His prophets, until R795 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R795) the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy. 17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36:17&sr=1&t=nas) Therefore R796 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R796) He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand. 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36:18&sr=1&t=nas) All R797 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R797) the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon. 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36:19&sr=1&t=nas) Then they R798 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R798) burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles. 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36:20&sr=1&t=nas) Those who had escaped from the sword he carried R799 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R799) away to Babylon;


Same is what is coming today, for God will NOT be mocked, whatsover a man sow, also shall he reap:

Gal 6:
The R260 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R260) one who is taught the R261 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R261) word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. 7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6:7&sr=1&t=nas) Do R262 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R262) not be deceived, God R263 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R263) is not mocked; for whatever R264 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R264) a man sows, this he will also reap. 8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6:8&sr=1&t=nas) For R265 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R265) the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap destruction, R266 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R266) but the R267 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R267) one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6:9&sr=1&t=nas) Let R268 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R268) us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do R269 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R269) not grow weary. 10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6:10&sr=1&t=nas) So then, while R270 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R270) F106 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F106) we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household R271 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R271) of the R272 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R272) faith.


When you break the law of love, you will reap the rewards for it, it is that plain, and that simple.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 01:30 PM
Hi sis.

I tend to see democracy as one of several vehicles that is being used to help usher in the beast kingdom.

Love you in Christ,
pinky


Hi Pinky,

Yes, I agree...there are many. However, I do see that there is this huge push through "democracy" to spread this beastly system. Consider:

A few clips from Condalisa.....in her recent speach:


Yet America and our allies were blessed with visionary leaders who did not lose their way. They created the great NATO alliance to contain and eventually erode Soviet power. They helped to establish the United Nations and created the international legal framework for this and other institutions that have served the world well for more than 50 years. They provided billions in aid to rebuild Europe and much of Asia. They built an international economic system based on free trade and free markets to spread prosperity to every corner of the globe. And they confronted the ideology and propaganda of our enemies with a message of hope, and with the truth. And in the end - though the end was long in coming - their vision prevailed.


The bible is clear that those whom preach "hope" for this world, are deceived..it is doomed to destruction, because it is of a fallen, and sinful state.

I believe it is democracy that is behind the push of man's last chance at this FALSE hope..

Another quote:



In these momentous times, American diplomacy has three great tasks. First, we will unite the community of democracies in building an international system that is based on our shared values and the rule of law. Second, we will strengthen the community of democracies to fight the threats to our common security and alleviate the hopelessness that feeds terror. And third, we will spread freedom and democracy throughout the globe. That is the mission that President Bush has set for America in the world -- and the great mission of American diplomacy today.They work in vain!


NATO -- and the European Union -- and our democratic allies in East Asia and around the world will be our strongest partners in this vital work. The United States will also continue to work to support and uphold the system of international rules and treaties that allow us to take advantage of our freedom, to build our economies, and to keep us safe and secure...and, the walls, came tumbling down...and, the walls, came tumbling, tumbling....(they don't realise that God is not going to be mocked...and, the book of Daniel speaks to how this will be done, by FORCE, through a false peace, and by spreading a false hope.)

Unless they repent, they shall ALL likewise perish. Building Babylon up again, has been going on for a long time.


We must remain united in insisting that Iran and North Korea abandon their nuclear weapons ambitions, and choose instead the path of peace. New forums that emerge from the Broader Middle East and North Africa Initiative offer the ideal venues to encourage economic, social and democratic reform in the Islamic world. Implementing the Doha Development Agenda and reducing trade barriers will create jobs and reduce poverty in dozens of nations. And by standing with the free peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan, we will continue to bring hope to millions, and democracy to a part of the world where it is sorely lacking.Now, as I said, the bible states very clearly that those whom build "hope" on anything OTHER than Jesus Christ will be shown that their work and toil is in VAIN.

Christians are going to have to make a stand someday, to either stand with Jesus and HIS kingdom, or to stand with this world and it's..and, when you are a christian, and you speak the truth in love, and, those whom hear you do NOT yet understand, they are offended. That is a fact.

I could post many other articles, and news sources that are saying these same things..Democracy is being spread, in the guise of a false hope, and a false peace, and it WILL be shown for what it is.

This is NOT my opinion. I don't know how anyone whom is a christian could deny what is right in front of their face.

peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 01:46 PM
Hi PP,

As I have already stated, I am not against the idea that this end time "beastly system" will not a literal king over it.

In fact, I am moreso persuaded that it will play out just like in times of OLD..whereas in times of old, King Neb was that king, but, there were also many kings over time, that played the same role. Pharoah was one.

I just do not believe it will be a literal stone temple that he will defile, but the new covenant, fulfillment, of a man sitting in the temple of God, the true temple, the assembly of the believers. In some ways, this is already being accomplished by false teachers whom are denying the blood that bought them, by denying the new covenant...but, it is not in it's fullness yet...for as I see it, it will culminate until it is blasphemy against the holy spirit.

peaceandlove,

janet

peaceandlove,

janetJanet,

Still not seeing how you are reading Daniel, Thess, and Rev. and coming up with it being a system or even false teaching (although the Antichrist will certainly do that). Can a system be tossed into hell? Don't think hell was created for systems eh?

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 01:47 PM
Hi sis.

I tend to see democracy as one of several vehicles that is being used to help usher in the beast kingdom.

Love you in Christ,
pinkyAre you guys perhaps confusing democracy with capitalism?

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 01:48 PM
Continuing with some more quotes from Condalisa, and then some more quotes from some news articles, etc.


Our third great task is to spread democracy and freedom throughout the world. I spoke earlier of the grave setbacks to democracy in the first half of the 20th century. The second half of the century saw an advance of democracy that was far more dramatic. In the last quarter of that century, the number of democracies in the world tripled. And in the last six months of this new century alone, we have witnessed the peaceful, democratic transfer of power in Malaysia -- a majority Muslim nation -- and in Indonesia -- the country with the world's largest Muslim population.


I ask those whom are yet in denial about this....do you read the news, or watch the news?

Condalisa:


We have seen men and women wait in line for hours to vote in Afghanistan's first ever free and fair presidential election. We -- and I know you Mr. Chairman -- were heartened by the refusal of the people of Ukraine to accept a flawed election, and their insistence that their democratic will be honored. We have watched as the people of the Palestinian Territories turned out to vote in an orderly and fair election. And soon the people of Iraq will exercise their right to choose their leaders, and set the course of their nation's future. No less than were the last decades of the 20th century, the first decades of this new century can be an era of liberty. And we in America must do everything we can to make it so.


Building a world of hope, prosperity and peace is difficult. As we move forward, America's relations with the world's global powers will be critical. In Russia, we see that the path to democracy is uneven and that its success is not yet assured. Yet recent history shows that we can work closely with Russia on common problems. And as we do so, we will continue to press the case for democracy, and we will continue to make clear that the protection of democracy in Russia is vital to the future of U.S.-Russia relations. In Asia, we have moved beyond the false assumption that it is impossible to have good relations with all of Asia's powers. Our Asian alliances have never been stronger -- and we will use that strength to help secure the peace and prosperity of the region. Japan, South Korea, and Australia are key partners in our efforts to deter common threats and spur economic growth. We are building a candid, cooperative and constructive relationship with China that embraces our common interests but still recognizes our considerable differences about values. The United States is cooperating with India, the world's largest democracy, across a range of economic and security issues. This, even as we embrace Pakistan as a vital ally in the war on terror, and a state in transition toward a more moderate and democratic future. In our own neighborhood, we are cooperating closely with Canada and Mexico, and working to realize the vision of a fully democratic hemisphere, bound by common values and free trade.


From the washington post, and notice the date...

Rice Describes Plans To Spread Democracy

Elections in Egypt Among Priorities

By Glenn Kessler and Robin Wright
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, March 26, 2005; Page A01

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice yesterday set out ambitious goals for the Bush administration's push for greater democracy overseas over the next four years, including pressing for competitive presidential elections this year in Egypt and women's right to vote in Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries.
Rice, in an interview with Washington Post editors and reporters, said she was guided less by a fear that Islamic extremists would replace authoritarian governments than by a "strong certainty that the Middle East was not going to stay stable anyway." Extremism, she said, is rooted in the "absence of other channels for political activity," and so "when you know that the status quo is no longer defensible, then you have to be willing to move in another direction."




As I said, this has been going on for quite some time.


The Lord has put it on my heart to warn my brethren.


Through deceit, the world is going to fall...not by something that is easily seen as "evil".


If anyone disagree's, please do not judge my motives.....:(


peaceandlove,


janet

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 01:48 PM
We agree there will be dead bodies, etc.

It is in HOW it is accomplished that we are disagreeing on.

Here is how it will be accomplished according to the word of God, as I see it, and as many other christians, also....:D..as it was in the PAST, so shall it be in the future....reaping and sowing:

2 Chron 36

14Furthermore, all the officials of the priests and the people were very unfaithful following all the abominations of the nations; and they defiled the house of the LORD


(this is the abomination of desolation, as it occurred in the old covenant shadow. In the new covenant REALITY, it will be in the same way, but by the spiritual fulfillment, meaning, it won't be a physical house again, but within the confounds of God's spiritual house...and, men are defiling the temple of God, everyday...through their false teachings, etc..and, through their acts of rebellion against the Lord)

which He had sanctified in Jerusalem. 15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36:15&sr=1&t=nas) The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent R792 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R792) word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place; 16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36:16&sr=1&t=nas) but they continually mocked R793 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R793) the messengers of God, despised R794 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R794) His words and scoffed at His prophets, until R795 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R795) the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy. 17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36:17&sr=1&t=nas) Therefore R796 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R796) He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand. 18 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36:18&sr=1&t=nas) All R797 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R797) the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon. 19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36:19&sr=1&t=nas) Then they R798 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R798) burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles. 20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36:20&sr=1&t=nas) Those who had escaped from the sword he carried R799 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ch+36&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R799) away to Babylon;


Same is what is coming today, for God will NOT be mocked, whatsover a man sow, also shall he reap:

Gal 6:
The R260 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R260) one who is taught the R261 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R261) word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. 7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6:7&sr=1&t=nas) Do R262 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R262) not be deceived, God R263 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R263) is not mocked; for whatever R264 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R264) a man sows, this he will also reap. 8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6:8&sr=1&t=nas) For R265 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R265) the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap destruction, R266 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R266) but the R267 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R267) one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6:9&sr=1&t=nas) Let R268 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R268) us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do R269 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R269) not grow weary. 10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6:10&sr=1&t=nas) So then, while R270 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R270) F106 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#F106) we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household R271 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R271) of the R272 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R272) faith.


When you break the law of love, you will reap the rewards for it, it is that plain, and that simple.

peaceandlove,

janetRevelation 19:19 ¶And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat upon the horse, and against His army.
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat upon the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.


Who does the slaying?

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 01:51 PM
Hi Pinky,

Yes, I agree...there are many. However, I do see that there is this huge push through "democracy" to spread this beastly system. Consider:

A few clips from Condalisa.....in her recent speach:

The bible is clear that those whom preach "hope" for this world, are deceived..it is doomed to destruction, because it is of a fallen, and sinful state.

I believe it is democracy that is behind the push of man's last chance at this FALSE hope..

Another quote:


They work in vain!

..and, the walls, came tumbling down...and, the walls, came tumbling, tumbling....(they don't realise that God is not going to be mocked...and, the book of Daniel speaks to how this will be done, by FORCE, through a false peace, and by spreading a false hope.)

Unless they repent, they shall ALL likewise perish. Building Babylon up again, has been going on for a long time.

Now, as I said, the bible states very clearly that those whom build "hope" on anything OTHER than Jesus Christ will be shown that their work and toil is in VAIN.

Christians are going to have to make a stand someday, to either stand with Jesus and HIS kingdom, or to stand with this world and it's..and, when you are a christian, and you speak the truth in love, and, those whom hear you do NOT yet understand, they are offended. That is a fact.

I could post many other articles, and news sources that are saying these same things..Democracy is being spread, in the guise of a false hope, and a false peace, and it WILL be shown for what it is.

This is NOT my opinion. I don't know how anyone whom is a christian could deny what is right in front of their face.

peaceandlove,

janet
Yeah... Imagine a nation actually pursuing peace and trying to free oppressed nations and feeding those in need and all that crazy stuff! Dang US! What a pipedream!

It is like you expect them to be Evangelist or something. They aren't. It's the government... not the church. ;)

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 01:52 PM
Janet,

Still not seeing how you are reading Daniel, Thess, and Rev. and coming up with it being a system or even false teaching (although the Antichrist will certainly do that). Can a system be tossed into hell? Don't think hell was created for systems eh? http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1694463)

That's fine, PP.


It all just boils down to one thing. Will you stand with the world, or with Jesus?

In the end, you only have one choice, and the false teachings have set up the church in such a way, in mho, as to make that seem confusing, but, in reality, it is clear. You cannot serve both...in the end, all of us are going to have to choose. He will make it plain to all, for nothing that is now hidden, will remain hidden, for God's people, the world will NOT understand, however.


peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 01:56 PM
Yeah... Imagine a nation actually pursuing peace and trying to free oppressed nations and feeding those in need and all that crazy stuff! Dang US! What a pipedream!

It is like you expect them to be Evangelist or something. They aren't. It's the government... not the church. ;) http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1694473)It is a pipedream to think that is what they are doing. What they are doing is exalting themselves above the rest of the world, by proclaiming that man can have peace and safety, and a false hope through governments of MEN.

Jesus warned about it, also. What profit a man, if he gain the whole world, yet lose his soul?



Are you aware of the prophecies that speak of this false hope/peace?

Just wondering.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:01 PM
Revelation 19:19 ¶And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat upon the horse, and against His army.
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat upon the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.


Who does the slaying?

God does, but not by physical warfare, they will be destroyed by the BRIGHTNESS of His coming...as it states, and unless one is changed, in that instant, like it states, they too would PERISH.

Mere mortals cannot see God and LIVE.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:23 PM
From foreignaffairs.org


Yet the failure of Washington's democracy promotion has not meant the failure of democracy itself. To the contrary, in the last quarter of the twentieth century this form of government enjoyed a remarkable rise. Once confined to a handful of wealthy countries, it became, in a short period of time, the most popular political system in the world. In 1900, only ten countries were democracies; by midcentury, the number had increased to 30, and 25 years later the count remained the same. By 2005, fully 119 of the world's 190 countries had become democracies.

I have to run...talk to ya later....

peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:29 PM
That's fine, PP.


It all just boils down to one thing. Will you stand with the world, or with Jesus?

In the end, you only have one choice, and the false teachings have set up the church in such a way, in mho, as to make that seem confusing, but, in reality, it is clear. You cannot serve both...in the end, all of us are going to have to choose. He will make it plain to all, for nothing that is now hidden, will remain hidden, for God's people, the world will NOT understand, however.


peaceandlove,

janetJanet,

What has democracy to do with false teaching in the church? Gotta be honest with you... you are sort of all over the place with this.

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:35 PM
It is a pipedream to think that is what they are doing. What they are doing is exalting themselves above the rest of the world, by proclaiming that man can have peace and safety, and a false hope through governments of MEN.

Jesus warned about it, also. What profit a man, if he gain the whole world, yet lose his soul?



Are you aware of the prophecies that speak of this false hope/peace?

Just wondering.

peaceandlove,

janetSo tell me Janet... what is the government supposed to do. Well... let's do nothing because we're just wee'ing up a rope and it is HOPELESS!!!! And no... not fooling myself at all. Even Jesus speaks of the wisdom of a king deciding between going to war or making peace. That is expected of governments even. Jesus used that in an analogy when speaking of those coming to Him counting the cost of being His disciple.

I am fully aware of the prophecies of the PROPHETS and SHEPHERDS/PRIEST that speak of peace when there is no peace and prosperity where there is no prosperity. But once again... those passages aren't speaking of Governments. You seem to really confuse the two... governments and God's house.

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:40 PM
God does, but not by physical warfare, they will be destroyed by the BRIGHTNESS of His coming...as it states, and unless one is changed, in that instant, like it states, they too would PERISH.

Mere mortals cannot see God and LIVE.

peaceandlove,

janetWhere is that Bible passage that tells us that this is going to be what destroys them?

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:41 PM
From foreignaffairs.org



I have to run...talk to ya later....

peaceandlove,

janet
News flash... I think someone pointed it out already. Not even the US is a true democracy nor was it established as one. You seem to not be taking any of that into consideration. ;)

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 02:57 PM
Building a world of hope, prosperity and peace is difficult. As we move forward, America's relations with the world's global powers will be critical. In Russia, we see that the path to democracy is uneven and that its success is not yet assured. Yet recent history shows that we can work closely with Russia on common problems. And as we do so, we will continue to press the case for democracy, and we will continue to make clear that the protection of democracy in Russia is vital to the future of U.S.-Russia relations. In Asia, we have moved beyond the false assumption that it is impossible to have good relations with all of Asia's powers. Our Asian alliances have never been stronger -- and we will use that strength to help secure the peace and prosperity of the region. Japan, South Korea, and Australia are key partners in our efforts to deter common threats and spur economic growth. We are building a candid, cooperative and constructive relationship with China that embraces our common interests but still recognizes our considerable differences about values. The United States is cooperating with India, the world's largest democracy, across a range of economic and security issues. This, even as we embrace Pakistan as a vital ally in the war on terror, and a state in transition toward a more moderate and democratic future. In our own neighborhood, we are cooperating closely with Canada and Mexico, and working to realize the vision of a fully democratic hemisphere, bound by common values and free trade

In these momentous times, American diplomacy has three great tasks. First, we will unite the community of democracies in building an international system that is based on our shared values and the rule of law. Second, we will strengthen the community of democracies to fight the threats to our common security and alleviate the hopelessness that feeds terror. And third, we will spread freedom and democracy throughout the globe. That is the mission that President Bush has set for America in the world -- and the great mission of American diplomacy today.


wow peter great point , about this not being a democracy --- it shows you how misguided our government is when the very leaders call it a democracy , how lost are they

RoadWarrior
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:37 PM
Yes, our country is pretty much divided on what kind of government we really have - Republic (Republicans) or Democracy (Democrats.)

My personal view on why democracy/Republic has been successful in some countries, is that it is successful when it is welded to Christian principles. As Christian principles erode, so also does the value of democracy.

As democracy is set up in Muslim countries, we do need to be aware that the values of the peoples in those countries are different from ours, and that people vote their values.

My question though, is this. What if you are successful in convincing people that democracy is a tool of the devil? Would you have us to overthrow our government? If so, what kind of government do you recommend for us instead?

The communist style government that is creeping in?

The Islamic style that is being forced on peoples in other countries?

Anarchy, such as is destroying nations in Africa?

Or do you have something else in mind?

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 04:09 PM
Building a world of hope, prosperity and peace is difficult. As we move forward, America's relations with the world's global powers will be critical. In Russia, we see that the path to democracy is uneven and that its success is not yet assured. Yet recent history shows that we can work closely with Russia on common problems. And as we do so, we will continue to press the case for democracy, and we will continue to make clear that the protection of democracy in Russia is vital to the future of U.S.-Russia relations. In Asia, we have moved beyond the false assumption that it is impossible to have good relations with all of Asia's powers. Our Asian alliances have never been stronger -- and we will use that strength to help secure the peace and prosperity of the region. Japan, South Korea, and Australia are key partners in our efforts to deter common threats and spur economic growth. We are building a candid, cooperative and constructive relationship with China that embraces our common interests but still recognizes our considerable differences about values. The United States is cooperating with India, the world's largest democracy, across a range of economic and security issues. This, even as we embrace Pakistan as a vital ally in the war on terror, and a state in transition toward a more moderate and democratic future. In our own neighborhood, we are cooperating closely with Canada and Mexico, and working to realize the vision of a fully democratic hemisphere, bound by common values and free trade

In these momentous times, American diplomacy has three great tasks. First, we will unite the community of democracies in building an international system that is based on our shared values and the rule of law. Second, we will strengthen the community of democracies to fight the threats to our common security and alleviate the hopelessness that feeds terror. And third, we will spread freedom and democracy throughout the globe. That is the mission that President Bush has set for America in the world -- and the great mission of American diplomacy today.


wow peter great point , about this not being a democracy --- it shows you how misguided our government is when the very leaders call it a democracy , how lost are they
It was never set up to be. Mind you it is closer to a democracy now than it is a Republic... but such is the way it went.

weighed
Jul 2nd 2008, 05:23 PM
Are mostly wrong.And many of them support an earthly war.
Though she may have overlooked a few areas, which still need to be clarified, she is the closest to how we as Christians need to be prepared for in the NOW!

A point I'd like to make regarding those who follow the error of subjecting themselves to the government in order to injure others.
Rom 8:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
This is a very impotant verse Re. the sword.

Notice too;Rom 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

He does not say we{Christians} beareth the sword but the government.
Christ says;Mt 26:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Also, this is found in Rom 13.Let us view word, fufilled, and whole!

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

1 Cor 10:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 05:27 PM
My question though, is this. What if you are successful in convincing people that democracy is a tool of the devil? Would you have us to overthrow our government? If so, what kind of government do you recommend for us instead?



your not going to change the minds of people who do not know christ.

we subject ourselves to the laws of the land

but we come out from it - we are held to a much higher standard

but as people who have the holy spirit - we are to be as harmless as doves

all governments are tools of the devil
for all governments are subject to the people in them

and the wicked are children of the devil

the government is subject to the wicked
so the devil uses all governments

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 05:30 PM
Are mostly wrong.And many of them support an earthly war.
Though she may have overlooked a few areas, which still need to be clarified, she is the closest to how we as Christians need to be prepared for in the NOW!

A point I'd like to make regarding those who follow the error of subjecting themselves to the government in order to injure others.
Rom 8:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
This is a very impotant verse Re. the sword.

Notice too;Rom 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

He does not say we{Christians} beareth the sword but the government.
Christ says;Mt 26:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Also, this is found in Rom 13.Let us view word, fufilled, and whole!

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

1 Cor 10:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.Okay... that is not what this thread is about. So let's not go there.

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 05:35 PM
So far... no one has even closely shown... using anything other than opinion... that the beast is a system of government.

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:05 PM
Janet,

What has democracy to do with false teaching in the church? Gotta be honest with you... you are sort of all over the place with this.

Go reread this thread.

I don't have time to go over it again....;)

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:10 PM
So tell me Janet... what is the government supposed to do. Well... let's do nothing because we're just wee'ing up a rope and it is HOPELESS!!!! And no... not fooling myself at all. Even Jesus speaks of the wisdom of a king deciding between going to war or making peace. That is expected of governments even. Jesus used that in an analogy when speaking of those coming to Him counting the cost of being His disciple.

I am fully aware of the prophecies of the PROPHETS and SHEPHERDS/PRIEST that speak of peace when there is no peace and prosperity where there is no prosperity. But once again... those passages aren't speaking of Governments. You seem to really confuse the two... governments and God's house.

I think it is the church that is confusing the two. My stance is that you cannot serve both, in spiritual things, and the church has allowed that leavening to sneak into the church.

..and, YES, God does use human governments to fulfill His will....I have said that many times...yet, if you are in the kingdom of God, you have a higher calling, and cannot serve in areas pertaining to spiritual matters that go against God, and His word....LOVE, that is.

When you do, you are in error.

Love does not harm his/her enemies..

..and, because the church has lost sight of how God fulfills His will to the disobedient, (through their OWN reaping and sowing), because they have been taught ERROR, many have mixed the old and new covenants on spiritual things.



peaceandlove,

janet

weighed
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:12 PM
Okay... that is not what this thread is about. So let's not go there.

Is those who purposefully choose to go fight in an earthy war which is supported by the government{which is the anti-Christ,if you read from the begining of this thread}, so it is very much part of this thread.

What i see in this thread is that; we are shown how to avoid the anti-Christ.The anti-Christ is the government.Any one fighting war for the anti-Christ, is not fighting the spiritual war in the kingdom of Christ.
Mt 12:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

weighed
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:19 PM
Matt 5:

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

We are told not to take an oath.
Every governor , to my knowlege, takes one,{have i missed it here?}
Jesus says plainly: "for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. "

weighed
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:20 PM
Mt 22:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Perhaps it is because they know not what Jesus said, I'm not sure,

but

Mt 21:42 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=42) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Rev 18:
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:24 PM
Go reread this thread.

I don't have time to go over it again....;)

peaceandlove,

janetI've read it a couple of times trying to put this puzzle together. Problem is... you have pieces that just don't fit.

pinky
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:26 PM
So far... no one has even closely shown... using anything other than opinion... that the beast is a system of government.

Personally, I think the beast will be a mortal man, ie king, who comes in his own name.

However, he will have a 'system', both religious and political, which he will use to subdue the nations......for a short time.

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:28 PM
I think it is the church that is confusing the two. My stance is that you cannot serve both, in spiritual things, and the church has allowed that leavening to sneak into the church.

..and, YES, God does use human governments to fulfill His will....I have said that many times...yet, if you are in the kingdom of God, you have a higher calling, and cannot serve in areas pertaining to spiritual matters that go against God, and His word....LOVE, that is.

When you do, you are in error.

Love does not harm his/her enemies..

..and, because the church has lost sight of how God fulfills His will to the disobedient, (through their OWN reaping and sowing), because they have been taught ERROR, many have mixed the old and new covenants on spiritual things.



peaceandlove,

janetOkay... Again though, without getting into just another thing on the war which seems you and others are going out of your way to do.... you are mixing passages about the government (in place by God with nothing telling believers to KEEP OUT) and His Prophets and Shepherds. Again... it seems like just another misuse of Scripture because you are trying to apply passages applicable to the church and make them applicable to Presidents and or Kings of nations.

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:31 PM
Is those who purposefully choose to go fight in an earthy war which is supported by the government{which is the anti-Christ,if you read from the begining of this thread}, so it is very much part of this thread.

What i see in this thread is that; we are shown how to avoid the anti-Christ.The anti-Christ is the government.Any one fighting war for the anti-Christ, is not fighting the spiritual war in the kingdom of Christ.
Mt 12:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.Okay... let me be a bit more firm. This thread is about explaining how the beast government is democracy. It is not going to be another anti-war thread. There are plenty of those and it seems we have a run from folks here making that their sole purpose in being here. As the Admin of this section of this board... I'm making it clear and trumping what you think the thread is going to be about. Simple enough?

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:37 PM
Personally, I think the beast will be a mortal man, ie king, who comes in his own name.

However, he will have a 'system', both religious and political, which he will use to subdue the nations......for a short time.
Well certainly the beast will have a "system" just like he is likely to have an airplane and a car. But that is not what is being said thusfar by the OP. It certainly isn't going to be a democratic one though. He'll be much more in control than that... the one that and think of it... He proclaims himself as "God"... not much hint of democracy from such as that and I'd think that should stand the test of simple common sense. If the last beast is a government "system" then I want to know what Scripturae shows us where "systems of government" are cast into the lake of fire? I've yet to see any such Scripture as that but I just missed it along the way. As of yet though... it's not been shown.

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:38 PM
Where is that Bible passage that tells us that this is going to be what destroys them?


First let us begin a foundation, ok?..truth is built on a foundation.

1 john 4

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+4:13&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.


We know that while Jesus was here in the flesh, and was God, so this is speaking of "seeing God" as HE IS...in His full glory...for God is spirit.

With that foundation,

we can then build on it...as we do here:

1 Tim 6:16

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1ti+6:16&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.


Not in God's full glory...for we must be "changed" as the bible states in order to go before His presence in full glory, and that is why christians are changed at the last trump...so, they can go into the presence of God.

Yet, the WORLD will not be changed, and, they will not be able to withstand His glory, although every eye will see Him, it will only be for a few seconds, or so...(the word does not give a exat time), yet it does make it clear that they will be destroyed by the brilliance of His coming!

We read that here:


2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall
consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:






ps 18:12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.

..for He is a CONSUMING FIRE.

Dan 9: 3

Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.


Heb 12:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Flesh cannot be in the presence of His HOLINESS and continue to live.

The bible makes it clear.

Some will say, "well, see God kills people".

To that I would say, God did not lift a finger.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:41 PM
News flash... I think someone pointed it out already. Not even the US is a true democracy nor was it established as one. You seem to not be taking any of that into consideration. ;)

I take all things into consideration. The democracy I am speaking of is what is present in the world today, and yes, what the usa is spreading, even out of their own mouths. Did you read the article quotes from one of the heads of this nation? Condalisa

It does not matter how you define democracy, when I use the word, I mean it in the way they use it.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:43 PM
Building a world of hope, prosperity and peace is difficult. As we move forward, America's relations with the world's global powers will be critical. In Russia, we see that the path to democracy is uneven and that its success is not yet assured. Yet recent history shows that we can work closely with Russia on common problems. And as we do so, we will continue to press the case for democracy, and we will continue to make clear that the protection of democracy in Russia is vital to the future of U.S.-Russia relations. In Asia, we have moved beyond the false assumption that it is impossible to have good relations with all of Asia's powers. Our Asian alliances have never been stronger -- and we will use that strength to help secure the peace and prosperity of the region. Japan, South Korea, and Australia are key partners in our efforts to deter common threats and spur economic growth. We are building a candid, cooperative and constructive relationship with China that embraces our common interests but still recognizes our considerable differences about values. The United States is cooperating with India, the world's largest democracy, across a range of economic and security issues. This, even as we embrace Pakistan as a vital ally in the war on terror, and a state in transition toward a more moderate and democratic future. In our own neighborhood, we are cooperating closely with Canada and Mexico, and working to realize the vision of a fully democratic hemisphere, bound by common values and free trade

In these momentous times, American diplomacy has three great tasks. First, we will unite the community of democracies in building an international system that is based on our shared values and the rule of law. Second, we will strengthen the community of democracies to fight the threats to our common security and alleviate the hopelessness that feeds terror. And third, we will spread freedom and democracy throughout the globe. That is the mission that President Bush has set for America in the world -- and the great mission of American diplomacy today.


wow peter great point , about this not being a democracy --- it shows you how misguided our government is when the very leaders call it a democracy , how lost are they

Exactly my point. 'When I use the term, I mean it in how they speak it out of their own mouths, not in how someone else describes the word.'

peaceandlove,

janet

pinky
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:45 PM
Hi Pinky,

Yes, I agree...there are many. However, I do see that there is this huge push through "democracy" to spread this beastly system. Consider:

A few clips from Condalisa.....in her recent speach:

The bible is clear that those whom preach "hope" for this world, are deceived..it is doomed to destruction, because it is of a fallen, and sinful state.

I believe it is democracy that is behind the push of man's last chance at this FALSE hope..

Another quote:


They work in vain!

..and, the walls, came tumbling down...and, the walls, came tumbling, tumbling....(they don't realise that God is not going to be mocked...and, the book of Daniel speaks to how this will be done, by FORCE, through a false peace, and by spreading a false hope.)

Unless they repent, they shall ALL likewise perish. Building Babylon up again, has been going on for a long time.

Now, as I said, the bible states very clearly that those whom build "hope" on anything OTHER than Jesus Christ will be shown that their work and toil is in VAIN.

Christians are going to have to make a stand someday, to either stand with Jesus and HIS kingdom, or to stand with this world and it's..and, when you are a christian, and you speak the truth in love, and, those whom hear you do NOT yet understand, they are offended. That is a fact.

I could post many other articles, and news sources that are saying these same things..Democracy is being spread, in the guise of a false hope, and a false peace, and it WILL be shown for what it is.

This is NOT my opinion. I don't know how anyone whom is a christian could deny what is right in front of their face.

peaceandlove,

janet


Hi sis.

I agree with so much of what you are saying.

However, I see this 'democracy' (so called) that is being brought to other nations by force .................. in it's truest philosophical/religious/legalistic sense.......... is talmudism.

(But that is a bit of a long and involved subject that usually causes problems when trying to disscuss it openly.)


Also, I think how a person views the REASONS for these wars can make it difficult to find common ground on this subject. For instance, there are still some people who genuinely believe that America's war effort is noble and just.............then there of those of us who see it quite differently.

Love you Janet,
pinky

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:45 PM
what happens when enough muslims come to a democracy , then say ok we dont want you worshipping as christians anymore.

then watch how the tune changes, and everyone who supports a democracy will instantly, we cant have that , they cant stop our religion. never even stopping to think that the very system is set up to fail that way, there are more non christians than there will ever be christians, and they chip away slowley and surely, freedom of religion -- wrong , to say it is , is to say god wants someone to worship false gods, gay marraige -- wrong.
on and on.

so some will side with government and some will side with god- always has been, always will be.

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:46 PM
Yes, our country is pretty much divided on what kind of government we really have - Republic (Republicans) or Democracy (Democrats.)

My personal view on why democracy/Republic has been successful in some countries, is that it is successful when it is welded to Christian principles. As Christian principles erode, so also does the value of democracy.

As democracy is set up in Muslim countries, we do need to be aware that the values of the peoples in those countries are different from ours, and that people vote their values.

My question though, is this. What if you are successful in convincing people that democracy is a tool of the devil? Would you have us to overthrow our government? If so, what kind of government do you recommend for us instead?

The communist style government that is creeping in?

The Islamic style that is being forced on peoples in other countries?

Anarchy, such as is destroying nations in Africa?

Or do you have something else in mind?

I think that what christians really need to be aware of is that God's ways are not man's ways, and His moral ways are not anything like the church upholds today..especially since apostacy began way back in the days of Paul, as he said...one would have to wonder how far off it is by now..eh?


LOVE...for God, and love for neighbor, and the bible says that INCLUDES your enemies..you don't here that in the pulpits today.....:mad:

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:49 PM
Are mostly wrong.And many of them support an earthly war.
Though she may have overlooked a few areas, which still need to be clarified, she is the closest to how we as Christians need to be prepared for in the NOW!

A point I'd like to make regarding those who follow the error of subjecting themselves to the government in order to injure others.
Rom 8:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
This is a very impotant verse Re. the sword.

Notice too;Rom 13:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

He does not say we{Christians} beareth the sword but the government.
Christ says;Mt 26:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Also, this is found in Rom 13.Let us view word, fufilled, and whole!

Rom 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

1 Cor 10:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

AMEN..how could it be any clearer?

peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:50 PM
First let us begin a foundation, ok?..truth is built on a foundation.

1 john 4

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+4:13&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.


We know that while Jesus was here in the flesh, and was God, so this is speaking of "seeing God" as HE IS...in His full glory...for God is spirit.

With that foundation,Not so fast though on this "that foundation" thing. What you say here can be taken several ways and I won't agree to it just on what you have here.

What has this to do with the return of Jesus? You do know that while Jesus was God and one with God... Jesus is still not the Father physically. If you believe otherwise then we'll have a problem with this foundation.

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:51 PM
So far... no one has even closely shown... using anything other than opinion... that the beast is a system of government.

Most likely because that is not what this thread is about, anyway.

The beast is something other than a system of government, my thread is about how the beast is using this system..not that it is IT.

peaceandlove,

janet

pinky
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:52 PM
Well certainly the beast will have a "system" just like he is likely to have an airplane and a car. But that is not what is being said thusfar by the OP. It certainly isn't going to be a democratic one though. He'll be much more in control than that... the one that and think of it... He proclaims himself as "God"... not much hint of democracy from such as that and I'd think that should stand the test of simple common sense. If the last beast is a government "system" then I want to know what Scripturae shows us where "systems of government" are cast into the lake of fire? I've yet to see any such Scripture as that but I just missed it along the way. As of yet though... it's not been shown.

Speaking for myself, I see the 'democracy', so called, as being a vehicle toward ushering in the kingdom of the beast. There are other 'vehicles' as well, ie, political and religious 'systems'.

However, I do believe that 'democracy' is playing her role too.

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:56 PM
I've read it a couple of times trying to put this puzzle together. Problem is... you have pieces that just don't fit.

OK, lol...some agree with me, so I guess they did not misplace the pieces and try to fit some in the wrong slots?

peaceandlove,

janet

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:59 PM
Most likely because that is not what this thread is about, anyway.

The beast is something other than a system of government, my thread is about how the beast is using this system..not that it is IT.

peaceandlove,

janet

amen to that -- the title of this thread does not say democracy is the beast

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:01 PM
Personally, I think the beast will be a mortal man, ie king, who comes in his own name.

However, he will have a 'system', both religious and political, which he will use to subdue the nations......for a short time.

I can agree with that!

It becomes confusing, because his "system" is called the "beast" also...and, I am becoming clearer on that, too. There is a man referred to as "the beast", as used by the term "he", and I did some pondering on that, and thought about it and prayed, and guess what?

It is like the word of God is using this term "beast" in two ways...

Once for the man whom will be the ultimate authority of it, and the ten kings that also give him their authority.

So, the word is used interchangeably...for example, the bible also says, "the whore rides the beast". Does that mean a literal woman rides a literal man? hmmmmm, nope, but pardon the expression...but, I do believe that is why she is a harlot, she has left Christ and is having .....spiritual fornication with the god of this world.

It means that the woman is the false church, and she is riding the beast system...which is of the world.

peaceandlove,

janet

weighed
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:04 PM
Is "democracy" the beast government?
I believe it is.
are we still there?

RoadWarrior
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:04 PM
Yes, our country is pretty much divided on what kind of government we really have - Republic (Republicans) or Democracy (Democrats.)

My personal view on why democracy/Republic has been successful in some countries, is that it is successful when it is welded to Christian principles. As Christian principles erode, so also does the value of democracy.

As democracy is set up in Muslim countries, we do need to be aware that the values of the peoples in those countries are different from ours, and that people vote their values.

My question though, is this. What if you are successful in convincing people that democracy is a tool of the devil? Would you have us to overthrow our government? If so, what kind of government do you recommend for us instead?

The communist style government that is creeping in?

The Islamic style that is being forced on peoples in other countries?

Anarchy, such as is destroying nations in Africa?

Or do you have something else in mind?


I think that what christians really need to be aware of is that God's ways are not man's ways, and His moral ways are not anything like the church upholds today..especially since apostacy began way back in the days of Paul, as he said...one would have to wonder how far off it is by now..eh?


LOVE...for God, and love for neighbor, and the bible says that INCLUDES your enemies..you don't here that in the pulpits today.....:mad:

peaceandlove,

janet


But you have not answered my question, Janet. You started this thread to talk about government, the "beast government" - so I think I have asked a fair question.

Your words clearly show that you are against the American style of government, so I ask again. What government do you prefer that we have?

You ask that we not question your motives. OK, I'm avoiding that, but I'm questioning the direction in which you are headed. What is your goal? If the goal is to turn people away from the government under which we live, what is the alternative?

RoadWarrior
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:06 PM
amen to that -- the title of this thread does not say democracy is the beast

"the beast government" is NOT the same thing as saying "the beast's government"

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:08 PM
I take all things into consideration. The democracy I am speaking of is what is present in the world today, and yes, what the usa is spreading, even out of their own mouths. Did you read the article quotes from one of the heads of this nation? Condalisa

It does not matter how you define democracy, when I use the word, I mean it in the way they use it.

peaceandlove,

janetSure it matters how you define democracy. If it is wrongly defined then it is likely not democracy.

And as to Rice's comments.... I don't really care. She's a politician and they talk like politicians. It means nothing in the grand scheme of things. I'm interested in Scripture on this issue because that's all that matters on the matter.

pinky
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:08 PM
Well certainly the beast will have a "system" just like he is likely to have an airplane and a car. But that is not what is being said thusfar by the OP. It certainly isn't going to be a democratic one though. He'll be much more in control than that... the one that and think of it... He proclaims himself as "God"... not much hint of democracy from such as that and I'd think that should stand the test of simple common sense. If the last beast is a government "system" then I want to know what Scripturae shows us where "systems of government" are cast into the lake of fire? I've yet to see any such Scripture as that but I just missed it along the way. As of yet though... it's not been shown.

Look at what I highlighted.

Here and elsewhere you seem to suggest that you think the OP is saying that the beast is a government system.

Yet a couple of posts before this post of yours you said the following.......



Okay... let me be a bit more firm. This thread is about explaining how the beast government is democracy.


Yes, that is the subject of the OP. I haven't seen anyone claim that the beast himself is a governmental system.

I may have overlooked it though.

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:10 PM
Peter, you give the impression you are harping on about war.
What about all the scriptures I quoted about the anti-Christ?
If you read the OP, it speaks of the Egyptian king. What happened there has every much to do with the war and the Anti-Christ in the end.
They can't be seperated, sorry.



I agree. It was not even me that brought up the issue of war again, in this thread first. It was the person whom kept telling me my view on this was wrong, because Jesus was going to come and fight war with mankind....after the same old verse in romans was taken out of context again.

So, as far as I am concerned if someone brings that discussion up, as a point in this thread, it should be allowed...to be debated, otherwise, why don't we all just go talk to a corner and learn nothing?

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:12 PM
Okay... Again though, without getting into just another thing on the war which seems you and others are going out of your way to do.... you are mixing passages about the government (in place by God with nothing telling believers to KEEP OUT) and His Prophets and Shepherds. Again... it seems like just another misuse of Scripture because you are trying to apply passages applicable to the church and make them applicable to Presidents and or Kings of nations.


I have been answering the questions about this when that subject comes up, which it has again in this thread...are you saying I should just ignore those points?

Where is freedom today? I believe that Christ set me free, but men try to subdue it..somehow.



peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:13 PM
Most likely because that is not what this thread is about, anyway.

The beast is something other than a system of government, my thread is about how the beast is using this system..not that it is IT.

peaceandlove,

janetOkay... so you meant something different than what you said in the original post?


There are more than one "beast" in the bible, and I believe they all represent a type of "human" government. The last being the government we call "democracy"...

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:14 PM
Speaking for myself, I see the 'democracy', so called, as being a vehicle toward ushering in the kingdom of the beast. There are other 'vehicles' as well, ie, political and religious 'systems'.

However, I do believe that 'democracy' is playing her role too.Okay... how?

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:17 PM
amen to that -- the title of this thread does not say democracy is the beastUm... it does in the text.


There are more than one "beast" in the bible, and I believe they all represent a type of "human" government. The last being the government we call "democracy"...Now... am I just seeing this and no one else is?

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:19 PM
Look at what I highlighted.

Here and elsewhere you seem to suggest that you think the OP is saying that the beast is a government system.

Yet a couple of posts before this post of yours you said the following.......



Yes, that is the subject of the OP. I haven't seen anyone claim that the beast himself is a governmental system.

I may have overlooked it though.You missed it I suppose... twas in the original post and what we've been talking about since the beginning. Like I said earlier... this seems to be all over the place.

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:19 PM
Hi Pinky,


Hi sis.

I agree with so much of what you are saying.

However, I see this 'democracy' (so called) that is being brought to other nations by force .................. in it's truest philosophical/religious/legalistic sense.......... is talmudism.

I see the talmudism as the "whore" that is riding the beast and it's system...and, many christians are going back to the law, so that is why it all fits together....:idea:


(But that is a bit of a long and involved subject that usually causes problems when trying to disscuss it openly.)

Yep, probably the same as this thread..no one wants to have an open enough mind, it seems...because it offends their "view".

I must say something here...there was once a time, when I was on that side of the road.

God called me out of it...(that particular ditch). Does that mean that I want to offend my brethren? No, not at all, I want them to see what I see, it is that simple, and if they cannot agree with it, then they should at least respect it...if they want respect in return.



Also, I think how a person views the REASONS for these wars can make it difficult to find common ground on this subject. For instance, there are still some people who genuinely believe that America's war effort is noble and just.............then there of those of us who see it quite differently.

Love you Janet,
pinky

Agreed.

peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:22 PM
, otherwise, why don't we all just go talk to a corner and learn nothing?

peaceandlove,

janetThat is an option. But this isn't going to be just another anti-war thread. I closed that one and will close it again if it starts up. You were going to show how democracy was the beast or beast system as you are now taking to calling it . You should be able to do that without getting into the war talk. I closed that thread for a reason... would like to not close this one for the same.

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:25 PM
I have been answering the questions about this when that subject comes up, which it has again in this thread...are you saying I should just ignore those points?

Where is freedom today? I believe that Christ set me free, but men try to subdue it..somehow.



peaceandlove,

janetFreedom is nothing but part of the beast system of democracy... you ought not be that bugged out about it. ;) And yes Janet... think on that. Yes... ignore those points because they are simply coming from the same folks in that old thread that I closed. Plus we have some new members to the peanut gallery and I suspect that isn't by accident. So if you want to continue the thread... ignore the post.

quiet dove
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:28 PM
It is simple here folks, this is not a war/anti-war thread, if it becomes one, it is no longer and ETC thread.

Also, cut out the insinuating discussion about other posters, it's obvious, even when you don't mention the names!!

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:29 PM
ok i posted this earlier and im curious to see if roadwarrior or project peter agree with anything i have to say in it or is it just so far out there and somehow i am preaching anti war

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadWarrior http://bibleforums.org/images/browner/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1694617#post1694617)
My question though, is this. What if you are successful in convincing people that democracy is a tool of the devil? Would you have us to overthrow our government? If so, what kind of government do you recommend for us instead?


your not going to change the minds of people who do not know christ. they will always be the majority- never minority -- i should make that clear as to what i mean

we subject ourselves to the laws of the land

but we come out from it - we are held to a much higher standard

but as people who have the holy spirit - we are to be as harmless as doves

all governments are tools of the devil
for all governments are subject to the people in them

and the wicked are children of the devil

the government is subject to the wicked
so the devil uses all governments

can you agree at all with anything in bold ?

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:32 PM
But you have not answered my question, Janet. You started this thread to talk about government, the "beast government" - so I think I have asked a fair question.

Hi Roadwarrior. I have answered that question in this thread several times. We, as christians cannot serve two masters according to the word of God. Now, we all must choose whether or not our conscience is pricked by that or not, ok?


Your words clearly show that you are against the American style of government, so I ask again. What government do you prefer that we have?


I prefer God's, and I don't choose any other.

Everyone else is free to make their own choice.



You ask that we not question your motives. OK, I'm avoiding that, but I'm questioning the direction in which you are headed. What is your goal? If the goal is to turn people away from the government under which we live, what is the alternative? http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1694966)

The bible commands that none of us judge the motive of anyone before the time...(the time reference is HIS second coming), because He will bring to light all the inner workings of every man...we cannot know that, and I would hope that as christians, we would never judge the motive of one of our own...and, I am not saying you are, but we should all be reminded.

With that said, the only GOAL I want to come from this thread, is for all christians everywhere to get out of their comfort zones, and look into these things for themselves.


I am not here to change anyone's mind, and niether do I even believe I could.

I once fought this same mindset that I now speak to.


That is all.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:36 PM
It is simple here folks, this is not a war/anti-war thread, if it becomes one, it is no longer and ETC thread.

Also, cut out the insinuating discussion about other posters, it's obvious, even when you don't mention the names!!


I am fine with not making this an anti war thread, but, since I have been accused of that, I am not going to stand there and say nothing.

I am still a bit carnal, too......:D

peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:41 PM
Reposting this... apparently you missed it.



First let us begin a foundation, ok?..truth is built on a foundation.

1 john 4

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+4:13&t=kjv&sr=1&l=en) Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.


We know that while Jesus was here in the flesh, and was God, so this is speaking of "seeing God" as HE IS...in His full glory...for God is spirit.

With that foundation,Not so fast though on this "that foundation" thing. What you say here can be taken several ways and I won't agree to it just on what you have here.

What has this to do with the return of Jesus? You do know that while Jesus was God and one with God... Jesus is still not the Father physically. If you believe otherwise then we'll have a problem with this foundation.

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:46 PM
all governments are tools of the devil
for all governments are subject to the people in them

and the wicked are children of the devil

the government is subject to the wicked
so the devil uses all governments

can you agree at all with anything in bold ? http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1695011)

I agree fully.

There is only ONE righteouss government, it is called the government of God..otherwise known as the "Kingdom of God".

Isa 9:

1
Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. F52


2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.


3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.


4 For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian

. 5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.


6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

..and, He did...through the shed blood of Jesus Christ our Lord.

peaceandlove,

janet

pinky
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:48 PM
Okay... how?

In a nutshell. Men put their faith and/or trust in democracy and it's process.

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:48 PM
Freedom is nothing but part of the beast system of democracy... you ought not be that bugged out about it. ;) And yes Janet... think on that. Yes... ignore those points because they are simply coming from the same folks in that old thread that I closed. Plus we have some new members to the peanut gallery and I suspect that isn't by accident. So if you want to continue the thread... ignore the post.

What have I ignored? You just questioned the new members motives, also..that is not right, Pete.

Perhaps, I should not of started this thread?

If so, please delete it.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:51 PM
Reposting this... apparently you missed it.


Not so fast though on this "that foundation" thing. What you say here can be taken several ways and I won't agree to it just on what you have here.

What has this to do with the return of Jesus? You do know that while Jesus was God and one with God... Jesus is still not the Father physically. If you believe otherwise then we'll have a problem with this foundation.

I was asked to show this.

...and, I am not going to derail this thread further by answering more questions about it...but, I will say that I don't understand why you bring up the "Jesus is not the Father" issue. It does not matter to me, Jesus is God.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:54 PM
In a nutshell. Men put their faith and/or trust in democracy and it's process.

Exactly.

God is a jealous God...and, He demands FULL faith and trust in HIM, alone...otherwise, you have jumped on that "beast" and ridin' with the harlot.

I jumped off a few years back.....:D

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:57 PM
Okay... so you meant something different than what you said in the original post?


I am growing in understanding as I have done this study. For example, Quietdove pointed out that the beast is a "he" along with you.

At first I could not see that, and then I came back and made a post as to how I had prayed about it and wa la....there it was.

The beast is actually used interchangeably in God's word as both the beast sytem, and the "he" that the beast system/ten kings gives it's full allegience to.

So, forgive me for growing...?

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 08:02 PM
That is an option. But this isn't going to be just another anti-war thread. I closed that one and will close it again if it starts up. You were going to show how democracy was the beast or beast system as you are now taking to calling it . You should be able to do that without getting into the war talk. I closed that thread for a reason... would like to not close this one for the same.

I am fine with that.

I did not bring the subject up....(war)

peaceandlove,

janet

RoadWarrior
Jul 2nd 2008, 08:11 PM
ok i posted this earlier and im curious to see if roadwarrior or project peter agree with anything i have to say in it or is it just so far out there and somehow i am preaching anti war

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadWarrior http://bibleforums.org/images/browner/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1694617#post1694617)
My question though, is this. What if you are successful in convincing people that democracy is a tool of the devil? Would you have us to overthrow our government? If so, what kind of government do you recommend for us instead?

....

all governments are tools of the devil
for all governments are subject to the people in them

and the wicked are children of the devil

the government is subject to the wicked
so the devil uses all governments

can you agree at all with anything in bold ?

No, I do not agree with the first line, and the rest are meaningless relative to what you are saying.

If you are advocating the destruction of the government of our country, then I can ony guess that you are preferring anarchy or Islam.

It is one thing to preach and teach that Christians should be obedient to God, and another thing entirely to preach that the government is the antichrist. One builds up the body, and the other threatens the house in which we live. Whether or not we like our government, it is better than anything else I see out there in the world.

As I always say to people who do not like our government, there are other countries where you can go and live. Why are you still here?

RoadWarrior
Jul 2nd 2008, 08:14 PM
I agree fully.

There is only ONE righteouss government, it is called the government of God..otherwise known as the "Kingdom of God".

...
peaceandlove,

janet

And that government has not been established on this earth, we expect it only with the return of Christ. In the meantime, we must work with what we have.

The only people who claim to live in a theocracy government today, are those in Islamic countries.

RoadWarrior
Jul 2nd 2008, 08:18 PM
Hi Roadwarrior. I have answered that question in this thread several times.

No, you are still evading it. If you destroy democracy or republicanism in our country, what will replace it?


The bible commands that none of us judge the motive of anyone before the time...(

I think you are wrong on this. We are to be wise as serpents. We are to be discerning. Else we would believe every lie that the enemy brings in front of us.



With that said, the only GOAL I want to come from this thread, is for all christians everywhere to get out of their comfort zones, and look into these things for themselves.

I am not here to change anyone's mind, and niether do I even believe I could.


This is your motive, Janet, to get us "out of our comfort zones". You want to stir things up. How does this edify? Why do you fear having us question your motives?

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 08:22 PM
ok i posted this earlier and im curious to see if roadwarrior or project peter agree with anything i have to say in it or is it just so far out there and somehow i am preaching anti war

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadWarrior http://bibleforums.org/images/browner/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1694617#post1694617)
My question though, is this. What if you are successful in convincing people that democracy is a tool of the devil? Would you have us to overthrow our government? If so, what kind of government do you recommend for us instead?


your not going to change the minds of people who do not know christ. they will always be the majority- never minority -- i should make that clear as to what i mean

we subject ourselves to the laws of the land

but we come out from it - we are held to a much higher standard

but as people who have the holy spirit - we are to be as harmless as doves

all governments are tools of the devil
for all governments are subject to the people in them

and the wicked are children of the devil

the government is subject to the wicked
so the devil uses all governments

can you agree at all with anything in bold ?No, all Governments aren't tools of the devil. You'll have no Scripture to support such as that either. Do you believe that Israel was a tool of satan? Come on now... give us some Bible!!!

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 08:24 PM
In a nutshell. Men put their faith and/or trust in democracy and it's process.Men put their trust in a lot of things... does that make everything men put their trust in "beast systems?"

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 08:25 PM
What have I ignored? You just questioned the new members motives, also..that is not right, Pete.

Perhaps, I should not of started this thread?

If so, please delete it.

peaceandlove,

janetUh... you asked me should you ignore the points those people are making Janet. I answered you. And yes I did and yes it is right. It is part of my job description here. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 08:27 PM
I was asked to show this.

...and, I am not going to derail this thread further by answering more questions about it...but, I will say that I don't understand why you bring up the "Jesus is not the Father" issue. It does not matter to me, Jesus is God.

peaceandlove,

janetDid you call this "foundation"? If it is foundation that we need to agree on then I need you to explain it. Do you believe that Jesus is literally God the Father? If so... then we are going to not agree on much and perhaps that explains things. Somewhere something seems broken in the foundation. It is NOT a derail and even you called it the foundation... so need an answer.

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 08:30 PM
I am growing in understanding as I have done this study. For example, Quietdove pointed out that the beast is a "he" along with you.

At first I could not see that, and then I came back and made a post as to how I had prayed about it and wa la....there it was.

The beast is actually used interchangeably in God's word as both the beast sytem, and the "he" that the beast system/ten kings gives it's full allegience to.

So, forgive me for growing...?

peaceandlove,

janetWhere is the beast shown as a system? The "he" yes... glad you got that part. But still not seeing where it is a system or where you see it being used to describe both things.

pinky
Jul 2nd 2008, 08:44 PM
[quote]It is one thing to preach and teach that Christians should be obedient to God, and another thing entirely to preach that the government is the antichrist. The government is not the antichrist. I think we have settled that already.

Do you think the antichrist spirit works through your government at all?



Whether or not we like our government, it is better than anything else I see out there in the world.1Cr 3:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr003.html#19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.


Jam 4:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jam/Jam004.html#4) Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.



As I always say to people who do not like our government, there are other countries where you can go and live. Why are you still here?So you think Americans who see some serious problems with your government should just leave the country?

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 08:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1695032#post1695032)
I agree fully.

There is only ONE righteouss government, it is called the government of God..otherwise known as the "Kingdom of God".

...
peaceandlove,

janet


And that government has not been established on this earth, we expect it only with the return of Christ. In the meantime, we must work with what we have.

The only people who claim to live in a theocracy government today, are those in Islamic countries.
http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1695070)

Well, we disagree, and that is probably why we disagree on this other issue. The kingdom of God was established on this earth at the death of our Lord....we enter it by faith, not sight...and, it does NOT come by observation, as your theology teaches, in mho.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1695016#post1695016)
Hi Roadwarrior. I have answered that question in this thread several times.

No, you are still evading it. If you destroy democracy or republicanism in our country, what will replace it?

Quote:
The bible commands that none of us judge the motive of anyone before the time...(
I think you are wrong on this. We are to be wise as serpents. We are to be discerning. Else we would believe every lie that the enemy brings in front of us.

Quote:
With that said, the only GOAL I want to come from this thread, is for all christians everywhere to get out of their comfort zones, and look into these things for themselves.

I am not here to change anyone's mind, and niether do I even believe I could.

This is your motive, Janet, to get us "out of our comfort zones". You want to stir things up. How does this edify? Why do you fear having us question your motives?

By "comfort zones" I am referring to what we all PREjudge in our own minds to be the truth.

All I am asking is that everyone look at this with an open mind. How is that being divisive?

peaceandlove,

janet

http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1695078)

RoadWarrior
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:10 PM
I have one last statement to make, and then I am done with this nonsense.

This is the country we live in. This is the government we have. I have traveled elsewhere in the world, have you? When I came home after my first trip to the Middle East, I had a very strong inclination to embrace the earth - as the old saying goes, to kiss the ground.

As far short as this country falls from perfection, it is better than most others. Far better than Islamic countries. Far better than communist countries.

If you wish to talk about the beast and who he is, then I suggest you start by querying the text and see what the Bible actually says about him before you jump to a conclusion. In this thread, you have started with your theory, then have worked to make scripture support it. That's not how legitimate scholarship works.

If you want to study the Bible and seek to know the mind of God, try a different method.

If what you really want is to destroy America, you are on the right track. Revolution begins by hating the government under which you live. Anarchy and destruction follow.

I'm done.

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1695044#post1695044)
I was asked to show this.

...and, I am not going to derail this thread further by answering more questions about it...but, I will say that I don't understand why you bring up the "Jesus is not the Father" issue. It does not matter to me, Jesus is God.

peaceandlove,

janet


Did you call this "foundation"? If it is foundation that we need to agree on then I need you to explain it. Do you believe that Jesus is literally God the Father? If so... then we are going to not agree on much and perhaps that explains things. Somewhere something seems broken in the foundation. It is NOT a derail and even you called it the foundation... so need an answer.
http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1695091)

No, the other post on this subject I laid out the foundation...You said I had missed the post, but I had answered it, maybe it disappeared in cyber space? I don't know.

I am not going to repost it, though.

Do I believe Jesus is literally God the Father?

I believe that Jesus and God the Father are literally ONE God.

What does that have to do with this thread?

Never mind, please don't answer..for then I would have to answer this post again, and I don't want to....it is completely derailing this thread.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:18 PM
I have one last statement to make, and then I am done with this nonsense.

This is the country we live in. This is the government we have. I have traveled elsewhere in the world, have you? When I came home after my first trip to the Middle East, I had a very strong inclination to embrace the earth - as the old saying goes, to kiss the ground.

As far short as this country falls from perfection, it is better than most others. Far better than Islamic countries. Far better than communist countries.

If you wish to talk about the beast and who he is, then I suggest you start by querying the text and see what the Bible actually says about him before you jump to a conclusion. In this thread, you have started with your theory, then have worked to make scripture support it. That's not how legitimate scholarship works.

If you want to study the Bible and seek to know the mind of God, try a different method.

If what you really want is to destroy America, you are on the right track. Revolution begins by hating the government under which you live. Anarchy and destruction follow.

I'm done.

I must walk the road He has put me on.

It does not matter to me that you disagree, for I know that when I was in your mindset, I was also angry at those whom told me these things.

However, God will judge whether or not I speak the truth of the matter or not..it is not for you to decide.

...unless of course, you want to place yourself in His judgement seat.

We all go there at times..that is exactly the doctrine I am fighting.

The government of democracy has done that also...and, they too will be shown just how vain their exalting themselves to the place of God will be..

I don't have to prove anything to anyone..everyone will reap what they themselves sow.

Even me.

So, don't be concerned about how ..... wrong you think I am.;)

peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1695044#post1695044)
I was asked to show this.

...and, I am not going to derail this thread further by answering more questions about it...but, I will say that I don't understand why you bring up the "Jesus is not the Father" issue. It does not matter to me, Jesus is God.

peaceandlove,

janet



No, the other post on this subject I laid out the foundation...You said I had missed the post, but I had answered it, maybe it disappeared in cyber space? I don't know.

I am not going to repost it, though.

Do I believe Jesus is literally God the Father?

I believe that Jesus and God the Father are literally ONE God.

What does that have to do with this thread?

Never mind, please don't answer..for then I would have to answer this post again, and I don't want to....it is completely derailing this thread.

peaceandlove,

janet
Do you think God and Jesus are the one and same Janet... Not One but Three... But just one? And my post to you was again in the fact that you said this is the foundation on all this other stuff. I am simply saying that if this is the foundation then we need to establish exactly what you mean. It has everything to do with this thread what with it being YOU that said that this is the foundation of your belief in the matter we were discussing. I am simply quoting what YOU said. I didn't say it.

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:18 PM
I have one last statement to make, and then I am done with this nonsense.

This is the country we live in. This is the government we have. I have traveled elsewhere in the world, have you? When I came home after my first trip to the Middle East, I had a very strong inclination to embrace the earth - as the old saying goes, to kiss the ground.

As far short as this country falls from perfection, it is better than most others. Far better than Islamic countries. Far better than communist countries.

If you wish to talk about the beast and who he is, then I suggest you start by querying the text and see what the Bible actually says about him before you jump to a conclusion. In this thread, you have started with your theory, then have worked to make scripture support it. That's not how legitimate scholarship works.

If you want to study the Bible and seek to know the mind of God, try a different method.

If what you really want is to destroy America, you are on the right track. Revolution begins by hating the government under which you live. Anarchy and destruction follow.

I'm done.

I have one last statement to make, and then I am done with this nonsense.

If what you really want is to destroy America, you are on the right track.

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:22 PM
Do you think God and Jesus are the one and same Janet... Not One but Three... But just one? And my post to you was again in the fact that you said this is the foundation on all this other stuff. I am simply saying that if this is the foundation then we need to establish exactly what you mean. It has everything to do with this thread what with it being YOU that said that this is the foundation of your belief in the matter we were discussing. I am simply quoting what YOU said. I didn't say it.

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

are you saying they are not one ?

incase you are confused they are three that bear record -- and they are ONE

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:22 PM
No, the other post on this subject I laid out the foundation...You said I had missed the post, but I had answered it, maybe it disappeared in cyber space? I don't know.

I am not going to repost it, though.

Do I believe Jesus is literally God the Father?

I believe that Jesus and God the Father are literally ONE God.

What does that have to do with this thread?

Never mind, please don't answer..for then I would have to answer this post again, and I don't want to....it is completely derailing this thread.

peaceandlove,

janet Do you think God and Jesus are the one and same Janet... Not One but Three... But just one? And my post to you was again in the fact that you said this is the foundation on all this other stuff. I am simply saying that if this is the foundation then we need to establish exactly what you mean. It has everything to do with this thread what with it being YOU that said that this is the foundation of your belief in the matter we were discussing. I am simply quoting what YOU said. I didn't say it. http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1695154)

I believe in ONE God, whom has been revealed to mankind in the three persons of Father, Son and Holy spirit.

What does that have to do with this thread?..my other post that this particular discussion was not even about that topic...the one I laid the foundation on, it was about how when Jesus comes, He will destroy the wicked with the brightness of His coming..remember?



peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:32 PM
I believe in ONE God, whom has been revealed to mankind in the three persons of Father, Son and Holy spirit.

What does that have to do with this thread?..my other post that this particular discussion was not even about that topic...the one I laid the foundation on, it was about how when Jesus comes, He will destroy the wicked with the brightness of His coming..remember?



peaceandlove,

janet
Jesus, separate but one? Because if you think Jesus is literally God the Father then we have a difference in the foundation. That's why it is important and that's my point. Not sure why this is hard to get on your end Janet. It seems you think Jesus is literally God just in a different form but not separate. In other words... the Trinity. You sound like you hold closer to the oneness doctrine but waiting still for you to clarify.

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:33 PM
Jesus, separate but one? Because if you think Jesus is literally God (the question you are seeming to avoid) then we have a difference in the foundation. That's why it is important and that's my point. Not sure why this is hard to get on your end Janet. It seems you think Jesus is literally God just in a different form but not separate. In other words... the Trinity. You sound like you hold closer to the oneness doctrine but waiting still for you to clarify.


you say he is seperate ?

I and my Father are one


is your arm seperate from you ?

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:34 PM
you say he is seperate ?
Um... yes. Ever heard of what is called the Trinity? All God... three distinct persons (trying to keep it easy)?

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:36 PM
Um... yes. Ever heard of what is called the Trinity? All God... three distinct persons (trying to keep it easy)?

i only read scripture i dont go into man made doctrine

please find trinity in scripture-- or else i will know you are following man made doctrine

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:40 PM
i only read scripture i dont go into man made doctrine

please find trinity in scripture-- or else i will know you are following man made doctrine
Yeah... pretty much what I figured. Let me point you guys to the rules of this board. You might want to familiarize yourself with them.

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:42 PM
Yeah... pretty much what I figured. Let me point you guys to the rules of this board. You might want to familiarize yourself with them.

im not denouncing trinity at all im just saying find it in scripture :)

pinky
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:51 PM
I have one last statement to make, and then I am done with this nonsense.

This is the country we live in. This is the government we have. I have traveled elsewhere in the world, have you? When I came home after my first trip to the Middle East, I had a very strong inclination to embrace the earth - as the old saying goes, to kiss the ground.

As far short as this country falls from perfection, it is better than most others. Far better than Islamic countries. Far better than communist countries.

If you wish to talk about the beast and who he is, then I suggest you start by querying the text and see what the Bible actually says about him before you jump to a conclusion. In this thread, you have started with your theory, then have worked to make scripture support it. That's not how legitimate scholarship works.

If you want to study the Bible and seek to know the mind of God, try a different method.

If what you really want is to destroy America, you are on the right track. Revolution begins by hating the government under which you live. Anarchy and destruction follow.

I'm done.


Hi Roadwarrior.

Before you leave, can you please explain how you conclude that anyone is promoting anarchy or Islam?

Thank you in advance,
pinky

theleast
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:04 PM
No, all Governments aren't tools of the devil. You'll have no Scripture to support such as that either. Do you believe that Israel was a tool of satan? Come on now... give us some Bible!!!

Do you think Israel did not stray from God's covenent?

Let me remind you it was the Pharisees that brought charges against Christ and choose Barabas the murder over Christ.

theleast
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:06 PM
I have one last statement to make, and then I am done with this nonsense.

If what you really want is to destroy America, you are on the right track.

Nobody in this thread is trying to destroy America.

God will take care of that on his own.

The point of this thread is to point out that America is a sinfull nation, and one that is the heart of Babylon.

theleast
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:11 PM
If Democracy is such a great form of government then why didn't God choose Democracy to run Israel?

Why did he use monarchy instead?

Democracy is a failed form of government because you give the uneducated, and those unfamiliar with politics and economics, the same decision making capabilities as the rest.

Would you want someone uneducated in medicine to perform heart surgery on you?

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:12 PM
Nobody in this thread is trying to destroy America.

God will take care of that on his own.

The point of this thread is to point out that America is a sinfull nation, and one that is the heart of Babylon.

yea i agree -- that was all quoted from someone else - none of my words

pinky
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:38 PM
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.





2Cr 4:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Cr/2Cr004.html#4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


Satan is the god of this world.

He offered to give ALL earthly kingdoms to Christ.

Therefore, ALL nations of this world are under satans influence.

Individuals are called out of the world by the power of the Gospel ONLY.

pinky
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:48 PM
If Democracy is such a great form of government then why didn't God choose Democracy to run Israel?

Why did he use monarchy instead?

Democracy is a failed form of government because you give the uneducated, and those unfamiliar with politics and economics, the same decision making capabilities as the rest.

Would you want someone uneducated in medicine to perform heart surgery on you?


Excellent point.

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:02 PM
im not denouncing trinity at all im just saying find it in scripture :)
Like I said... make yourself familiar with the rules. That legalistic route won't work... one can denounce in many ways.

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:18 PM
Jesus, separate but one? Because if you think Jesus is literally God the Father then we have a difference in the foundation. That's why it is important and that's my point. Not sure why this is hard to get on your end Janet. It seems you think Jesus is literally God just in a different form but not separate. In other words... the Trinity. You sound like you hold closer to the oneness doctrine but waiting still for you to clarify.

Do you believe in one God?

..and, I do believe in three persons, I already stated that.

Why don't you start a thread and we can discuss this there?

peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:21 PM
Do you think Israel did not stray from God's covenent?

Let me remind you it was the Pharisees that brought charges against Christ and choose Barabas the murder over Christ.Has nothing to do with the fact that all governments aren't established or belong to Satan. If the leaders do evil then there ya go and that will be on them. If the leaders don't do evil... it ain't the government of the devil. God can bless a nation just as well as curse it. And if God's blessing is on that nation then that isn't the devils little nation. That is pretty much simple Bible 101 stuff there.

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:23 PM
If Democracy is such a great form of government then why didn't God choose Democracy to run Israel?

Why did he use monarchy instead?

Democracy is a failed form of government because you give the uneducated, and those unfamiliar with politics and economics, the same decision making capabilities as the rest.

Would you want someone uneducated in medicine to perform heart surgery on you?And the point is and was early on... technically speaking... we aren't a democracy although folks seem to think that. ;)

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:26 PM
Has nothing to do with the fact that all governments aren't established or belong to Satan. If the leaders do evil then there ya go and that will be on them. If the leaders don't do evil... it ain't the government of the devil. God can bless a nation just as well as curse it. And if God's blessing is on that nation then that isn't the devils little nation. That is pretty much simple Bible 101 stuff there. http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1695288)


That is according to your interpretation, though Pete. NOT all christians view it that way. Some christians believe that the world is evil of itself, due to sin...in mankind..and, that would make the governments of this world in that same position.

We have tried to show that, but, without any good coming out of it, so I ask..what is the point?

I never opened this thread to cause what I have been accused of..(causing division)

My motive was good, but others took it wrongly.

So, what can we do?

I truly will pray about that.

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:27 PM
And the point is and was early on... technically speaking... we aren't a democracy although folks seem to think that. ;)

..and, the point was also made that those whom spew "deomcracy", as does our own leaders, do not view it as you do.

They are all for spreading it'...to overtake other nations and, all in the name of God...

Can we have our own opinions on this, and maybe even talk one to another, of like mind?

peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:29 PM
Do you believe in one God?

..and, I do believe in three persons, I already stated that.

Why don't you start a thread and we can discuss this there?

peaceandlove,

janet
If you are of the oneness group as I suspect is the case.... make yourself familiar with the rules.

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:31 PM
What I am saying is .....can this board allow those whom have the same mindset as I do to discuss this, in this thread?


..without fear of "speaking something that might get the thread closed".

I ask in sincerity, for I don't understand the contradiction.

peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:31 PM
That is according to your interpretation, though Pete. NOT all christians view it that way. Some christians believe that the world is evil of itself, due to sin...in mankind..and, that would make the governments of this world in that same position.Then that is because they don't read their Bible. Israel was a HOLY nation... set apart for God. Learn that word and its meaning and then try and spin it being a Holy Devil's Nation. :rolleyes:


We have tried to show that, but, without any good coming out of it, so I ask..what is the point?

I never opened this thread to cause what I have been accused of..(causing division)

My motive was good, but others took it wrongly.

So, what can we do?

I truly will pray about that.

peaceandlove,

janetDo that.

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:32 PM
If you are of the oneness group as I suspect is the case.... make yourself familiar with the rules.

There you go again, judging me based on your own reasonings..lol

Let me say it again..I believe in ONE God, as the bible teaches that they are one.

peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:32 PM
..and, the point was also made that those whom spew "deomcracy", as does our own leaders, do not view it as you do.

They are all for spreading it'...to overtake other nations and, all in the name of God...

Can we have our own opinions on this, and maybe even talk one to another, of like mind?

peaceandlove,

janet
Spew it? Yeah... peace and love! I can feel it!

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:33 PM
I don't even know what is all encompassed in what you call th "oneness group"!!

I have not found the word "trinity": in the bible, does that make me "oneness group"?

peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:33 PM
What I am saying is .....can this board allow those whom have the same mindset as I do to discuss this, in this thread?


..without fear of "speaking something that might get the thread closed".

I ask in sincerity, for I don't understand the contradiction.

peaceandlove,

janet
Not with the oneness doctrine... you would have to take that to World Religions. Would you like me to move this there for you?

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:35 PM
There you go again, judging me based on your own reasonings..lol

Let me say it again..I believe in ONE God, as the bible teaches that they are one.

peaceandlove,

janet
Do you believe in the doctrine of the trinity? Surely you know what that means right? If so then just say yes. If not then let's not play word games.... goodness. This isn't a trick question.

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:36 PM
Not with the oneness doctrine... you would have to take that to World Religions. Would you like me to move this there for you?

May I ask you to show where I have claimed to in a 'oneness' group? Otherwise, why do you accuse me of that?

I never brought that topic up in this thread, either..YOU did.

I am not sure, but I feel you are trying to find any reason to make me leave?


If not, PLEASE show where I even suggested any such thing.

This is crazy.

peaceandlove,

janet

theleast
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:39 PM
Has nothing to do with the fact that all governments aren't established or belong to Satan. If the leaders do evil then there ya go and that will be on them. If the leaders don't do evil... it ain't the government of the devil. God can bless a nation just as well as curse it. And if God's blessing is on that nation then that isn't the devils little nation. That is pretty much simple Bible 101 stuff there.

I agree it is quite simple.

The kings of the earth are fornicating with the whore.

God has turned loose war, famine, and death upon the Earth. Man is waging war over the love of money, and there is no righteous nation on the Earth. The judgement will fall on the day of the Lord and all the kings of the earth will tremble for their fornications with the whore.

Which leaders upon the Earth are not doing evil today?

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:39 PM
Goodness gracious!!! I AM ASKING IF YOU ARE! I have asked you that several times now and tried to get straight answers from you based on something you have said. You have done about everything but answer the question. Do you believe in the doctrine of the Trinity? It is just a yes or no for Pete's sake!

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:39 PM
Do you believe in the doctrine of the trinity? Surely you know what that means right? If so then just say yes. If not then let's not play word games.... goodness. This isn't a trick question.

OK, here we go...

I don't even understand the doctrine of the trinity, so how can I say I agree with it?

I feel the doctrine of the trinity is a doctrine that TRIES to describe God..as He is, but, IN reality, I don't think that anyone can really describe God as HE really is..does that mean I don't agree with the doctrine of the trinity? NO, it means, I don't understand it.

Does that settle things for you, or do I need to get a lawyer?

LOL

Pete, for cryin out loud, this thread is not even about that.

YOU made it into that....so, I am asking, can we get it back on topic, or do I simply need to think that I am being ostercised?

Please let me know..because my patience is wearing thin..and, I would really like to remain on this board.

peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:42 PM
I agree it is quite simple.

The kings of the earth are fornicating with the whore.

God has turned loose war, famine, and death upon the Earth. Man is waging war over the love of money, and there is no righteous nation on the Earth. The judgement will fall on the day of the Lord and all the kings of the earth will tremble for their fornications with the whore.

Which leaders upon the Earth are not doing evil today?
Doubtful there are many if any. I am not one that personally knows every head of Governments so I can't say. The actions of some make it clear... others who knows. I'd wager... if any it would be few. But nevertheless... that doesn't make democracy, socialism, communism, totalitarianism or whateverism the beast. You can't chuck a system in the lake of fire and that's sure enough where the Beast gets chucked. ;)

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:43 PM
I agree it is quite simple.

The kings of the earth are fornicating with the whore.

God has turned loose war, famine, and death upon the Earth. Man is waging war over the love of money, and there is no righteous nation on the Earth. The judgement will fall on the day of the Lord and all the kings of the earth will tremble for their fornications with the whore.

Which leaders upon the Earth are not doing evil today?

http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://bibleforums.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1695311)

Amen, exactly how I see it, too.....thanks, for this.

(now to those whom disagree, I am not AGAINST YOU...I am only here trying to show a view)

peaceandlove,

janet

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:45 PM
OK, here we go...

I don't even understand the doctrine of the trinity, so how can I say I agree with it?

I feel the doctrine of the trinity is a doctrine that TRIES to describe God..as He is, but, IN reality, I don't think that anyone can really describe God as HE really is..does that mean I don't agree with the doctrine of the trinity? NO, it means, I don't understand it.

Does that settle things for you, or do I need to get a lawyer?

LOL

Pete, for cryin out loud, this thread is not even about that.

YOU made it into that....so, I am asking, can we get it back on topic, or do I simply need to think that I am being ostercised?

Please let me know..because my patience is wearing thin..and, I would really like to remain on this board.

peaceandlove,

janet
Honestly.... I'm not that horribly concerned with your patience long about now. Again... you play word games and yes... it is important because much of your post is cloaked in the oneness doctrine and the more you go on... the more that shows. That doctrine is not going to happen on this board... now... nor next week. We've tried it and as sure as God made little green apples... threads go goofy faster than a Porsche can go from 0-60. This is clearly one of those cases. Let's just close this out and again... get very familiar with the rules of this board. I suspect that would be best for you guys.

jewel4Christ
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:45 PM
Doubtful there are many if any. I am not one that personally knows every head of Governments so I can't say. The actions of some make it clear... others who knows. I'd wager... if any it would be few. But nevertheless... that doesn't make democracy, socialism, communism, totalitarianism or whateverism the beast. You can't chuck a system in the lake of fire and that's sure enough where the Beast gets chucked

I personally believe that all earthly governments will be chucked in the lake of fire...for they will have an end...and, HIS alone will remain....;)

peaceandlove,

janet

theleast
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:45 PM
Doubtful there are many if any. I am not one that personally knows every head of Governments so I can't say. The actions of some make it clear... others who knows. I'd wager... if any it would be few. But nevertheless... that doesn't make democracy, socialism, communism, totalitarianism or whateverism the beast. You can't chuck a system in the lake of fire and that's sure enough where the Beast gets chucked. ;)

I wouldn't be so quick to label democracy as the ONLY government of the beast, but there is only one kingdom that will stand at the end.

That is the Kingdom of God.

theleast
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:46 PM
Honestly.... I'm not that horribly concerned with your patience long about now. Again... you play word games and yes... it is important because much of your post is cloaked in the oneness doctrine and the more you go on... the more that shows. That doctrine is not going to happen on this board... now... nor next week. We've tried it and as sure as God made little green apples... threads go goofy faster than a Porsche can go from 0-60. This is clearly one of those cases. Let's just close this out and again... get very familiar with the rules of this board. I suspect that would be best for you guys.

Oneness doctrine?

What in the heck is that?

LOL

jewel believes only in the doctrine of the word of God from what I've seen.

ProjectPeter
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:47 PM
Honestly.... I'm not that horribly concerned with your patience long about now. Again... you play word games and yes... it is important because much of your post is cloaked in the oneness doctrine and the more you go on... the more that shows. That doctrine is not going to happen on this board... now... nor next week. We've tried it and as sure as God made little green apples... threads go goofy faster than a Porsche can go from 0-60. This is clearly one of those cases. Let's just close this out and again... get very familiar with the rules of this board. I suspect that would be best for you guys.
A bird that waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck and looks like a duck along with shedding water like a duck.... gotta figure it's a duck.

This thread is closed.

For those of you in this thread that are here to just go on and on about the war and all of this doctrinal stuff that I've been reading over the last few days... read the rules of this board. When done... if you have any questions then start a thread in chat to mod's. If you start another thread in this vein then I will close it and instruct the mod's of this forum to do the same.

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:47 PM
just so you know what nations are fornicating with the whore, and which kings.

3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.


so there we have it folks

ALL NATIONS