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manichunter
Jul 1st 2008, 03:31 PM
How can we know the difference from the wheat and tares?


How can we tell the difference from a real believer from a false believer?

Wheat is good to eat and profitable for trade. Tares look like wheat but it is poisonous to eat and not of any good to trade. Tares pretend to be wheat.

(Tares)- Lolium temulentum, typically known as darnel or cockle, is an annual plant that forms part of the Poaceae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poaceae) family and part of the Lolium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolium) genus. The plant stem can grow up to 1 meter tall, with inflorescence in the ears and purple grain. It grows plentifully in Syria and Israel.
It usually grows in the same production zones as wheat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat) and is considered a weed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weed). The similarity between these two plants is so extensive that in some regions cockle is referred to as "false wheat." It bears a close resemblance to wheat until the ear appears. The ears on the real wheat are so heavy that it makes the entire plant droop downward, but the "false wheat", which ears are light, stands straight.

How can we know the difference? I have studied this topic and will attempt to share what I know. Please feel free to add the revelations that God has taught you.


Wheat Believers versus Tare Believers-

1.Wheat can cry Abba Father because of the inner witness of the Holy Spirit and Tares cannot because they are not indwelled by the Holy Spirit
Ga 4:6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:6&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

2.Wheat can know God in spirit and truth but Tares are under the deception of the devil.
Matt 7:21-23 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

3.Wheat produces good fruit and Tares produce false fruit.
Matt 7:15-17 15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

4.Wheat has the truth that sets us free, but Tares have a form of godliness but no power.
2Ti 3:5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ti+3:5&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

5.Wheat is spiritual and Tares can be nothing but carnal.
1Co 3:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+3:3&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

6.Wheat was birth by the Holy Spirit and Tares were planted by the devil.
Mt 13:25 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+13:25&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.

I believe the Tares do not and cannot know that they are Tares unless God draws them to the truth of His Son. The Wheat however know that they are wheat. Jesus said let the wheat and tares grow together. This means that they are growing together in the same churches.
Mt 13:30 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+13:30&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.

7.The wheat has a purpose that is of God, but the Tares have a purpose that is of the devil.
Joh 8:44 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+8:44&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. (The Sanhedrin sat in the Seat of Moses, but a great many of them were of the devil and did the devil's business by having the Messiah killed)

Outside of discernment being given to us from the Holy Spirit, I do not believe that there is a true measure of testing wheat from tares. We can attempt to do so, but we can often be wrong. Wheat can sometimes be mistaken as a tare depending on the mess of sin some saint find themselves in. Tares can sometimes be mistaken as wheat as a lot of unsaved people can do a mountain of good works. However, I believe in the times to come, the distinctions between the two will become a whole more noticeable.

I believe the Tares will be one of the greatest oppressors and thorn in the side of the true saints of God in the times leading up to and in the tribulation. Some tares will serve the anti-christ and do his works under deception just as some of the Sanhedrin did.
Joh 16:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+16:2&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service.


What can you add that lets you know the Wheat from the Tares?

Partaker of Christ
Jul 1st 2008, 07:28 PM
How can we know the difference from the wheat and tares?


How can we tell the difference from a real believer from a false believer?

Wheat is good to eat and profitable for trade. Tares look like wheat but it is poisonous to eat and not of any good to trade. Tares pretend to be wheat.

(Tares)- Lolium temulentum, typically known as darnel or cockle, is an annual plant that forms part of the Poaceae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poaceae) family and part of the Lolium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolium) genus. The plant stem can grow up to 1 meter tall, with inflorescence in the ears and purple grain. It grows plentifully in Syria and Israel.
It usually grows in the same production zones as wheat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat) and is considered a weed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weed). The similarity between these two plants is so extensive that in some regions cockle is referred to as "false wheat." It bears a close resemblance to wheat until the ear appears. The ears on the real wheat are so heavy that it makes the entire plant droop downward, but the "false wheat", which ears are light, stands straight.

How can we know the difference? I have studied this topic and will attempt to share what I know. Please feel free to add the revelations that God has taught you.


Wheat Believers versus Tare Believers-

1.Wheat can cry Abba Father because of the inner witness of the Holy Spirit and Tares cannot because they are not indwelled by the Holy Spirit
Ga 4:6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+4:6&translation=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

2.Wheat can know God in spirit and truth but Tares are under the deception of the devil.
Matt 7:21-23 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

3.Wheat produces good fruit and Tares produce false fruit.
Matt 7:15-17 15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

4.Wheat has the truth that sets us free, but Tares have a form of godliness but no power.
2Ti 3:5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ti+3:5&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

5.Wheat is spiritual and Tares can be nothing but carnal.
1Co 3:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+3:3&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

6.Wheat was birth by the Holy Spirit and Tares were planted by the devil.
Mt 13:25 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+13:25&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.

I believe the Tares do not and cannot know that they are Tares unless God draws them to the truth of His Son. The Wheat however know that they are wheat. Jesus said let the wheat and tares grow together. This means that they are growing together in the same churches.
Mt 13:30 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+13:30&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.

7.The wheat has a purpose that is of God, but the Tares have a purpose that is of the devil.
Joh 8:44 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+8:44&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. (The Sanhedrin sat in the Seat of Moses, but a great many of them were of the devil and did the devil's business by having the Messiah killed)

Outside of discernment being given to us from the Holy Spirit, I do not believe that there is a true measure of testing wheat from tares. We can attempt to do so, but we can often be wrong. Wheat can sometimes be mistaken as a tare depending on the mess of sin some saint find themselves in. Tares can sometimes be mistaken as wheat as a lot of unsaved people can do a mountain of good works. However, I believe in the times to come, the distinctions between the two will become a whole more noticeable.

I believe the Tares will be one of the greatest oppressors and thorn in the side of the true saints of God in the times leading up to and in the tribulation. Some tares will serve the anti-christ and do his works under deception just as some of the Sanhedrin did.
Joh 16:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+16:2&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service.


What can you add that lets you know the Wheat from the Tares?


Hi manichunter!

The only one I seem to have some problem in agreement with, is (5) carnal

I believe that true Christians, can yet still be carnal (as babes in Christ)
They just lack a measure of Christian maturity.

Keeping 'the faith' during persecution will expose/separate wheat from tares.
I also have a strong feeling that, the 'falling away' is a separation of wheat and tares.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

manichunter
Jul 1st 2008, 07:49 PM
Hi manichunter!

The only one I seem to have some problem in agreement with, is (5) carnal

I believe that true Christians, can yet still be carnal (as babes in Christ)
They just lack a measure of Christian maturity.

Keeping 'the faith' during persecution will expose/separate wheat from tares.
I also have a strong feeling that, the 'falling away' is a separation of wheat and tares.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I agree. It should be better said that Wheat is spiritual but can be carnal, and it often is without discipleship. Its a matter of our position in Christ (spiritual), but not living in it or by it (carnal).

Literalist-Luke
Jul 1st 2008, 08:46 PM
The Bible says you can tell the difference by their "fruit".

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 1st 2008, 08:52 PM
The Bible says you can tell the difference by their "fruit".

Exactly

... Ye shall know them by their fruit...

9Marksfan
Jul 1st 2008, 11:10 PM
This is a great thread, manichunter, and reflects much of what I have been trying to say elsewhere - the church is a mixed body, made up of true and false believers - wheat and tares.

The agricultural description of when the distinction becomes clear is a wonderful one - I'm sure one or more of the Puritans will have some pithy comments on it! For me, it reminds me of a chapter in the little book by Roy Hession, The Calvary Road - the chapter was based on Paul's phrase "Not I, but Christ" and was called "Not I, but C" - Hession drew the contrast between the stubborn, proud self, standing tall and unbending like the letter "i" (like the tare) and the humble, contrite, new creature in Christ, bending in prayer and conscious of his own sin and need, ressembling the letter "c" (like the wheat!).

I don't have anything to say further except that this is clearly speaking about the churches because the tares are sown AMONG the wheat - and it is "an enemy" who has done this - ie the Devil. Someone else has said elsewhere that the church is ONLY made up of real believers, because it's only the Lord who adds people to His church. But this passage shows that Satan adds HIS people to churches too - rather the passages in Acts show that those who are the Lord's are added by Him to the church - they're not just left to fend for themselves! But it doesn't imply that those in the churches are ALL added by the Lord.

Finally, I believe that this parable teaches the same basic message as many of the other parables - the sheep and the goats, the good and the bad servants/fish, the wise and the foolish builders/virgins, those on the broad/narrow way.

keck553
Jul 1st 2008, 11:14 PM
The fruit thing definately works.

SweetSomber
Jul 1st 2008, 11:22 PM
Exactly

... Ye shall know them by their fruit...

You know, I think that we are the ones who are supposed to be sorting the wheat from the tares. I've seen people try. We want to believe, in our human pride that we really do have the knowledge and good and evil and can know that in our black and white world, we know when others are doing wrong. We want to think that we know who's saved and who's not.

This is not what God intended.

God is the one who, in the end, plans to separate the wheat from the tares in the story. It's not the wheat going around telling other wheat that they think they may be a tare. According the verse mentioned about, we are supposed to tell False prophets by their fruit - to avoid following their teachings. We are not to go around testing spiritual fruit and accusing people in our mind of not being saved.

I've heard people say about myself, my mom, and other random people that they must not be christians - they can't be christians. A christian wouldn't do/feel that. I don't see the fruits of the Spirit in their life, and "you shall know them by their fruit." Well, christians also sin and feel depressed, blow up at people, can be insecure, will disagree with you, will believe in gray areas, etc. They need to be helped, maybe - taught perhaps - discouraged and accused? Never. Who is "the accuser of the brethren"? Satan. Should we? No.

I'm not saying that any of you on this thread would be judgmental or accusing towards others, but I think it's something that we all need to be careful of, especially when trying to weigh in our mind who is saved and who isn't. In my own mind, I'm content with saying 'I believe that they are saved, based on x,y,z, but God knows." Or "I think it highly unlikely that this guy is a christian, but God knows." I am never ever 100% sure whether anyone is saved, except myself. I'm SURE about myself. Others, I can only be mostly sure. But I don't really dwell on it all that much, and if I think someone is unsaved, I don't tell them "you don't have the fruit of the Spirit," I subtly witness to them rather - I try to help.

keck553
Jul 1st 2008, 11:24 PM
Ture that, but getting personally too involved with tares can be destructive. I guess we need to define 'fruit' so we can talk from the same platform.

SweetSomber
Jul 1st 2008, 11:26 PM
The fruit thing definately works.

I've seen it many times NOT work though. :)

fewarechosen
Jul 1st 2008, 11:27 PM
and also remember tares think they are wheat

Kate
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:09 AM
Did you know...

Tares and wheat look the same in structure. However, they do grow differently: As wheat matures and grows, it bows over. Tares stand straight up. In this way they are somewhat distinguishable.

Isn't this interesting? We as Christ followers should also bow in humility before our Creator and to one another. The world is puffed up in pride, and a false Christian (tare) *could* be evidenced by a lack of repentance, humility, and grace towards others.

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:13 AM
Did you know...

Tares and wheat look the same in structure. However, they do grow differently: As wheat matures and grows, it bows over. Tares stand straight up. In this way they are somewhat distinguishable.

Isn't this interesting? We as Christ followers should also bow in humility before our Creator and to one another. The world is puffed up in pride, and a false Christian (tare) *could* be evidenced by a lack of repentance, humility, and grace towards others.


kate i never knew that thanks for pointing that out

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:25 AM
A picture of the two conflicts of two differnt spiritual kingdoms..

The parable of the sower refers to the the man who sowed good seed in his field.. then while men slept the enemy came and sowed tares amongst the wheat seed.. and went his way....

The bad seed or tares are sown by the devil.. he plants them amongst the wheat.. when the good seed sprouts and bears fruit.. alas.. there are the tares or the bad seed.. right amonst the wheat or good seed.... Like the Apostle Paul revealing the mystery.. I find a law that when I would do good... EVIL is present with me..

Those who worked in the field saw the bad seed and wanted to go and root them out.. and they quesitoned where the tares came from.. The good Master of the field told the workers not to root up the tares lest ye pull up some of the wheat in the process.. let them both grow together until the time of the harvest.. then the tares shall be placed in bundles and burned in the fire.. but gather the wheat into the barn.

The field is the world.. the good seed are the children of the Kingdom .. sown by the Son of Man..

The bad seed are those children of darkness masquerading as children of light... they are the tares.. sown by their father the devil.

They both grow up together until the time of the harvest. then the tares are gathered and burned in the unquenchable fire... but the righteous shall shine forth as the sun.... in the Kingdom of their Father


HE THAT HATH EARS LET HIM HEAR...

The scripture says we will 'know' them by their fruit.. as far as the good seed trying to uproot the bad seed... His command is to let them grow up until the time of the harvest .. then His angels shall gather out all that offend and those who do iniquity... this is at the End of the World..

'knowing' their fruit is spiritually discerning their motives and looking at their actions and what they preach/teach as far as sound doctrine.... is the fruit of the Spirit manifest? thats not judgemental at all.. its called discernment.. much of it is lacking today.. We are to 'test' all things.....

In this teaching you see the 'two kindgoms' side by side on this planet.. the god of this world and his kingdom and his children... some who masquerade as children of light.. then you see the Son of Man as He plants 'true' light or seed amongst the darkness.. Those with true light and are the good seed... are overcomers.... and can quote this verse at the accuser when he comes.. roaming...

Greater is He that is in me, than he that is in the world..

Those with true light and the good seed are overcomers....

We have overcome the wicked one... and what is this........ that overcomes this world and its system? even our Faith...

Faith in the Risen One.. the Son of Man.. and believing and trusting in Him and His completed atoning Work at Golgotha... trusting with child like faith as a child would...

this is 'our' Victory!

manichunter
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:38 AM
I got a new question to add that I see another spurred my thinking. Who are the men that fell asleep? It is obvious that they got something to do with the enemy being allowed to sow the tares in the first place. I believe Jesus is making an accusation against the saints not being watchful of the enemy works within the body.

I also believe that there is nothing new under the sun. There will come a time of great conflict between the wheat and tares....... The tares will turn against the wheat as the sinners of Israel turned against the prophets and the Sanhedrin turned against Jesus. They were tares and pretenders who oppressed and attacked the wheat thinking they were doing God a service.

Naphal
Jul 2nd 2008, 08:53 AM
Awhile ago I read a study that did some research on the possible modern plants in Israel that could have been the ones called Tares by Christ. They are not the typical weed one thinks of. They do not overtake and destroy fields like most weeds do, but grow like a plant such as wheat does, more independently without trying to destroy its neighbor. The problem lies in the harvest. The tare looks remarkably like wheat when its growing so you cant really tell which is which. When harvest comes, you sadly find out that a good portion of your crop is tainted by this dark/black poisonous seed from the tare plant.

Sherrie
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:37 AM
Wheat:

http://www.3d-images.ws/pictures/mature-wheat-heads.jpg

Tares being cut:

http://voiceofthesheep.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/harvest1.jpg


Wheat and Tares:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/pontier4/Ri90A5cYp0I/AAAAAAAABwA/PIIv5AnPoGI/Day%203%20-%20Wheat%20%26%20Tares.jpg?imgmax=512

Weeds and tares are cut first out of the crops and burned, then the wheat is harvest. There is a resemblance here with God; His children and those that are evil (example: Wandering in the wilderness, the congregation was weeded out and the evil never made it into the promise land).

9Marksfan
Jul 2nd 2008, 12:31 PM
This such a great thread - really illuminating! Thanks to everyone for their input! :)

grptinHisHand
Jul 2nd 2008, 01:01 PM
I have just found and read through this thread. It is a good thread, a good discussion.

When I saw the title it captured my attention because I just heard my pastor bring a message on this Sunday. He pointed out that the part about the workers being asleep is not something of such importance here, as they were not hired to watch the field at all times. So that isn't to be our focus in this parable. If it was Jesus would have brought that out in His explanation.

The other thing that caught my attention in the OP is the words "false believers". :hmm: Wait! Are they believers if they are 'false'? Wouldn't they not be believers if they didn't believe? I think we need to see the tares as they are shown by Christ here, seeds planted by the enemy, Satan. They may be those who 'claim to believe, but don't' - those who 'act as if, but are not Christ's', but they are not 'believers'. If they were believers then they would be wheat, needing maturity. And as the maturity comes the differences show the wheat to be wheat and the tares to be just that. know you all brought this out, but I wanted to make the comment about the term 'believer' as I think it very important.
In Christian love, :hug:
g

RJ Mac
Jul 2nd 2008, 01:46 PM
Sorry I don't see how tares are in the church. This parable is talking about
the world, Christians and lost growing up together and God will deal with the
wicked in the end, that is not our responsibility. But the church must weed
out the wicked among them and not allow them to grow in our midst. The
NT is very strong in warning us to mark false teachers, if you see bad fruit
get rid of it.

1Cor.5:1ff ...not to keep company with anyone named a brother who is
sexually immoral or covetous or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an
extortioner or even to eat with such a person. But those who are outside
God judges. Therefore put away from yourselves the evil person.


Rev.2:2...I know you cannot bear those who are evil and you have tested
those who say they are apostles and are not and have found them liars...

The church must judge itself and cleanse itself from obvious sinfulness.
We shall not let the tares grow amongst the wheat. Therefore this parable
is Jesus referencing the wicked in the world, let God deal with them and
He will come judgment day. You take care of the body of Christ.

1Tim.1:19 having faith and a good conscience which some having rejected
concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck of whom are Hymenaus and
Alexander whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

The examples keep coming of dealing with the sins within the church and
never allowing tares to be in the body. Church discipline is vital.

2Cor.6:15-17 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a
believer with a unbeliever? And what agreement has the temple of God
with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
I will dwell in them and walk among them, I will be their God and they will
be My people. Therefore Come out from among them and be separate
says the Lord, do not touch what is unclean and I will receive you....

Now as for the parable of the sheep and the goats, that parable is about
the judgment of the church for the goats don't show any signs of bad
fruit, they are condemned because they just didn't do any good, they
didn't love the brethren, they didn't cloth, visit, offer a drink etc.
But those with obvious sins, they need to be disciplined. see Mt.18:15-20;

RJ

manichunter
Jul 2nd 2008, 04:31 PM
The term false is being used in the definition that some people believe that they are saved, but actually are not saved. They might be very religious and appear to be very devout, but in reality they do everything from carnality and humanity. They might believe in Jesus, but even the devils believe and tremble; however, they never accept Jesus as their personal Savior and Lord. I was like that at one time. I would attend Christian events, thought I was going to heaven, and I would sometimes be moved by the words from the pulpit. However, I did not receive Him for myself until 20 years old. Then I actually knew I was a member of the spiritual Body of Christ.

Some people actually believe that they are saved by asscociations to Christian institutions and personal relationships with a God that excludes the Son............... It is no way to convince them that they are in error.

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 2nd 2008, 05:13 PM
Jesus spoke about 'wolves' in sheeps clothing... would you consider a 'tare' to be a wolf in sheeps clothing?

Jesus defines it even more as a 'false prophet'.. and were to be wary of them.. they 'come' to the sheep.. those that are true disciples and followers aka the wheat.... Jesus says the tares grow right along side the wheat.. so they are intermingled ... The 'true' body of Christ can not be defined by 'wood' or 'brick' walls ie a building.. It is His real Body.. bought by His blood.. His spiritual church.. those with the indwelling Holy Ghost... He knows His sheep and His sheep ... 'know' Him.. for the Spirit testifies to that.... I believe as we get closer to His coming and appearing the 'tares' will be become more prevalent as well as their proliferation of false doctrine and false signs and wonders. The end times are characterized by these movements and actions.

manichunter
Jul 2nd 2008, 05:16 PM
Jesus spoke about 'wolves' in sheeps clothing... would you consider a 'tare' to be a wolf in sheeps clothing?

Jesus defines it even more as a 'false prophet'.. and were to be wary of them.. they 'come' to the sheep.. those that are true disciples and followers aka the wheat.... Jesus says the tares grow right along side the wheat.. so they are intermingled ... The 'true' body of Christ can not be defined by 'wood' or 'brick' walls ie a building.. It is His real Body.. bought by His blood.. His spiritual church.. those with the indwelling Holy Ghost... He knows His sheep and His sheep ... 'know' Him.. for the Spirit testifies to that.... I believe as we get closer to His coming and appearing the 'tares' will be become more prevalent as well as their proliferation of false doctrine and false signs and wonders. The end times are characterized by these movements and actions.

Yes it would be one of the tares if the wolf believes he is saved but yet fleeches the sheep, we all know of pastors doing that before.........

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:48 PM
The apostle Paul talked about 'cutting off an occasion' from them which desire an occasion..... that they may glory as we do or may be found as we are...

He is unfortunately referring to those who claim to be Christ's, yet Paul discerned and came to the conclusion that they were false.... ministers, teachers, evangelist, prophets of righteousness... then he goes on to say its no big marvel or shouldnt be of a big suprise...


for SATAN HIMSELF is transformed into an angel of light.... Its of no big suprise then those who follow him and his children are transformed into 'false' ministers teachers preachers evangelists prophets as he is.... Paul 'recognized' and 'discerned' these wolves in sheeps clothing, tares.. etc..

You have to understand that the enemy of your soul wants to 'be like God'.. and he will imitate and appear as the real thing.. his main goal is to decieve and destroy and to be 'like God' and aquire worship.

It was Pauls desire to 'cut off occasion' from them.. It means he recognized the situation and went out of his way to abstain from that fellowship..... yet they grow up side by side.

http://cf.blb.org/gifs/copyChkboxOff.gif2Cr 11:12 (http://cf.blb.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Cr&c=11&v=12&t=KJV#12)But 1161 (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=1161&t=KJV) what 3739 (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=3739&t=KJV) I do 4160 (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=4160&t=KJV) , that 2532 (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=2532&t=KJV) I will do 4160 (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=4160&t=KJV) , that 2443 (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=2443&t=KJV) I may cut off 1581 (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=1581&t=KJV) occasion 874 (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=874&t=KJV) from them which desire 2309 (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=2309&t=KJV) occasion 874 (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=874&t=KJV); that 2443 (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=2443&t=KJV) wherein 1722 (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=1722&t=KJV) 3739 (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=3739&t=KJV) they glory 2744 (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=2744&t=KJV) , they may be found 2147 (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=2147&t=KJV) even 2532 (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=2532&t=KJV) as 2531 (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=2531&t=KJV) we 2249 (http://cf.blb.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=2249&t=KJV).

Once again Jesus 'knows' His sheep and His sheep 'know' Him for the Spirit will testify to that....

keck553
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:54 PM
Awesome wisdom and insight here! Praise God!

Semi-tortured
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:01 PM
You know, I think that we are the ones who are supposed to be sorting the wheat from the tares. I've seen people try. We want to believe, in our human pride that we really do have the knowledge and good and evil and can know that in our black and white world, we know when others are doing wrong. We want to think that we know who's saved and who's not.

This is not what God intended.

God is the one who, in the end, plans to separate the wheat from the tares in the story. It's not the wheat going around telling other wheat that they think they may be a tare. According the verse mentioned about, we are supposed to tell False prophets by their fruit - to avoid following their teachings. We are not to go around testing spiritual fruit and accusing people in our mind of not being saved.

I've heard people say about myself, my mom, and other random people that they must not be christians - they can't be christians. A christian wouldn't do/feel that. I don't see the fruits of the Spirit in their life, and "you shall know them by their fruit." Well, christians also sin and feel depressed, blow up at people, can be insecure, will disagree with you, will believe in gray areas, etc. They need to be helped, maybe - taught perhaps - discouraged and accused? Never. Who is "the accuser of the brethren"? Satan. Should we? No.

I'm not saying that any of you on this thread would be judgmental or accusing towards others, but I think it's something that we all need to be careful of, especially when trying to weigh in our mind who is saved and who isn't. In my own mind, I'm content with saying 'I believe that they are saved, based on x,y,z, but God knows." Or "I think it highly unlikely that this guy is a christian, but God knows." I am never ever 100% sure whether anyone is saved, except myself. I'm SURE about myself. Others, I can only be mostly sure. But I don't really dwell on it all that much, and if I think someone is unsaved, I don't tell them "you don't have the fruit of the Spirit," I subtly witness to them rather - I try to help.

Thank you for that post. Pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. God knows the heart. We only know part of it. There are moments that if someone were to see me in that moment and that's all they ever saw of me, they would think I'm a horrible, wretched person with no feelings towards God. Look for false prophets and their teachings, but don't go looking in the fields for the tares all the time because it can damage your own walk; judging everyone in comparison to yourselves while at the same time doing the things you do in order to show how much better you are than the tare instead of doing it for God.

manichunter
Jul 3rd 2008, 04:18 AM
Thank you for that post. Pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. God knows the heart. We only know part of it. There are moments that if someone were to see me in that moment and that's all they ever saw of me, they would think I'm a horrible, wretched person with no feelings towards God. Look for false prophets and their teachings, but don't go looking in the fields for the tares all the time because it can damage your own walk; judging everyone in comparison to yourselves while at the same time doing the things you do in order to show how much better you are than the tare instead of doing it for God.


This very true..

I believe a tare should be left alone unless they become a problem person. If any person became a problem, they should be dealt with.'

My pastor developed a tares test that works most of the time. Most in up admitting the truth, but we do not bother them. We treat them like everybody else. It takes a great deal of care and time. You cannot just tell a person they are not saved until you get to be their friend in fellowship.

Generally, they are asked when did they get saved. Then they are asked what has God promised them and called them to do. Honest Tares usually cannot answer these questions correctly. I usually hear I was born a Christian, I got saved when I was ten, I have been going to church all my life and I believe God wants me to go to church and listen to the preacher. You just have to keep preaching and serving them until either the Holy Spirit brings them into the Kingdom or they leave on their own.

fewarechosen
Jul 3rd 2008, 04:24 AM
this also is the tares


21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

they think they are wheat

manichunter
Jul 4th 2008, 02:54 AM
can you go in more detail about this passage.

Yukerboy
Jul 4th 2008, 01:29 PM
Let me throw a different light onto this.

The Pharisees, the ones that Christ said "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.", were they wheat or tares?

The obvious answer, at least to me, is that they were tares. However, did they consider themselves to be saved by God through the law? Absolutely!

This is a debate I've had countless times and never seem to articulate myself well enough on, so bear with me.

The movies and the church's portrayal of these Pharisees who crucified our Lord and Savior did this with a few facts.

1. Christ said they knew not what they did.
2. They did what they did thinking they were serving God (which, if you think it through, they did)
3. They are still tares. Even Christ called them vipers and that they were sons of the devil and he said that is exactly what tares are.

I am sure all of us can agree that you can believe you are saved or doing right, as the Pharisees believed, yet still do wrong.

Yuke

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 4th 2008, 03:47 PM
Let me throw a different light onto this.

The Pharisees, the ones that Christ said "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.", were they wheat or tares?

The obvious answer, at least to me, is that they were tares. However, did they consider themselves to be saved by God through the law? Absolutely!

This is a debate I've had countless times and never seem to articulate myself well enough on, so bear with me.

The movies and the church's portrayal of these Pharisees who crucified our Lord and Savior did this with a few facts.

1. Christ said they knew not what they did.
2. They did what they did thinking they were serving God (which, if you think it through, they did)
3. They are still tares. Even Christ called them vipers and that they were sons of the devil and he said that is exactly what tares are.

I am sure all of us can agree that you can believe you are saved or doing right, as the Pharisees believed, yet still do wrong.

Yuke

-------------------------------------------------------
Excellent post!..

Jesus refered to the Light within you...

He said take heed and beware that the light which is in you be not darkness.. if that was the case then how 'great' is that darkness...

Yes I believe tares believe they are wheat..


yet their light they profess and believe in is actually darkness..

but then you have to cut thru the flesh and realize the 'spiritual' factors behind the darkness..

they were following a 'light' but it was and is still darkness today....

Jesus said their 'hearts were hardened' their eyes and ears were shut... Isaiah actually prophesied of this spiritual condition way back.. When Jesus came He reinforced that.. thru His teaching.

Narrowing down the spiritual influence even more you have Paul talking and teaching that those who were lost had their 'minds' blinded or clouded to the reality and simplicity in Jesus the Christ.. the one behind this was and is the god of this world.... the prince of the power of the air....

he is also the one who sows the bad seed or the tares.. right along side the good seed or the wheat ie the children of true light or the true Kingdom of Heaven.

When you cut away all the doctrine and all the eloquent words and religious conundrum...... the

religous tares are just as lost as the drunkard, thief, adulterer , idolater...etc.. They need salvation and they need their 'blinders' removed.. and that false spiritual presense removed from their lives.. and they need translation into the true Kingdom of Light..

This all possible by what He accomplished thru His perfect atoning work at Calvary and His shed blood and His resurrection from the dead 3 days later....

Its very very simple...

jewel4Christ
Jul 4th 2008, 05:57 PM
Good points.

I would like to add though, which has already been stated in this thread, (page 1), that a christian can truly be saved, and truly be a "wheat" of the Lord, and, then return to the ways of the world. ..through deceit, and false doctrine, satan influences us all through the flesh. That is why the bible makes it clear that you must "make your calling and election sure", but, if one does not, and just accepts every form and wind of doctrine that comes his/her way, they are in danger of being "cut off".

Osas is not a true doctrine.

It has entered into the church/body to keep those whom are going this route, (accepting false worldly doctrines), to blind them from seeing the error of their way. (I know, I once went that way...and, by the grace of God, He has restored me from my fallen state)..the bible says, "when you seek to be justified by the law of the old covenant, and allow it to enter back into what He has torn down, you are in danger of being fallen from grace".

Those whom do this, according to the word of God are handed over to satan, for the destruction of the "flesh", which will either teach them through much sorrowful days to either repent, and return to their first love, or to eventually be totally cut off. God allows us all to choose the outcome of that, too. He is not a respector of persons, He loves all His children, the same, but, love does not lead one to destruction, following and remaining in the ways of this world, and the flesh, DO...through rebellion towards God, by quenching the holy spirit. His spirit will not always remain with man, if one does NOT allow the holy spirit to correct him/her. In my case, through much sorrow, and grief, I came to repentance, and was restored, and I can only praise MY God, for His correction. Despise not the correction of the Lord, He says...and, if a person does despise the correction of the Lord, they will not repent.

People sometimes like to blame God, on these things, that is why we need to understand this from a sure foundation.

So, wheat and tares do grow side by side, and, yes there are tares whom have never been wheat, but also there are tares whom are tares because they left the truth, and, went back into the world, such as we see with the example of Lot's wife, and in revelation, where God is going to give His people one last chance to repent, and return to Him, before He comes....through the tribulation, all things will be made plain, there won't be no more speculation, on "different viewpoints", for we shall all undergo that "fire" that will show this:

What I am saying is that even after we are saved, God tests us to see if we are truly going to remain one of His wheat, by making our calling and election sure, or if we are simply going to trust in man to lead us. Man will lead us into the ditch, I have been led there....lol..many are called, but few are chosen.

A few examples:

Gen 22:1 After these things God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here am I."

Ps 66:10 For thou, O God, hast tested us; thou hast tried us as silver is tried.

Zec 13:9 And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, and I will answer them. I will say, 'They are my people'; and they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'"

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer up his only son,


This testing is what the bible calls, "making your calling and election sure".

We are to work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling. God EXPECTS IT. He does not command His children to fall for every wind of doctrine, set in place by some of satans evil workers to pull the wool over their eyes.

We must test all things, test the spirits. Those whom do not, will be found as "cut off", but, before that happens, God is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish, but that all whom are currently, wheat, whom have allowed the tares to surround them to the point, where they have no room for growth, and they are in such a condition as to the point of having their very salvation, choked out, God says...REPENT.

We see that in revelation, concerning the seven churches...there is a huge "bunch" of christian's, whom have left their "FIRST LOVE".

God says, repent.

God did not leave them, they left Him, by following the teachings of men, that are contrary to the word of God, through the blood of the everlasting new covenant.

btw, genesis was before the law was added....;)

peaceandlove,


janet

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 4th 2008, 08:49 PM
Like I mentioned before. Jesus 'know's His sheep and His sheep 'know' Him... They will have been tried and tried again.. gone thru the refiners fire from different aspects of life.. yet they will still confess that He is their Lord and Saviour .. no matter what happens... these are the 'true kernels' of wheat....

They will 'know' their calling and they will 'know' their election... and to add promise to what is taught in the NT>..... these are the Word of the LORD JEHOVAH...


....no man is able to pluck them out of My Hand....

Naphal
Jul 5th 2008, 03:59 AM
Let me throw a different light onto this.

The Pharisees, the ones that Christ said "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.", were they wheat or tares?

Are you certain he was speaking about the Pharisees?

jewel4Christ
Jul 5th 2008, 05:28 AM
Like I mentioned before. Jesus 'know's His sheep and His sheep 'know' Him... They will have been tried and tried again.. gone thru the refiners fire from different aspects of life.. yet they will still confess that He is their Lord and Saviour .. no matter what happens... these are the 'true kernels' of wheat....

They will 'know' their calling and they will 'know' their election... and to add promise to what is taught in the NT>..... these are the Word of the LORD JEHOVAH...


....no man is able to pluck them out of My Hand....

This is true. Once you have made your calling and election sure, no one can pluck you out of His hand......:amen:


peaceandlove,

janet

manichunter
Jul 6th 2008, 01:47 PM
This is true. Once you have made your calling and election sure, no one can pluck you out of His hand......:amen:


peaceandlove,

janet


How do you think our calling and election sure. I believe God is the one that does this by confirming the witness and presence of His Spirit in us as Abba Father.

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 6th 2008, 03:56 PM
How do you think our calling and election sure. I believe God is the one that does this by confirming the witness and presence of His Spirit in us as Abba Father.


Yes He does.. ur 100 percent right.. His Spirit confirming it with our spirit by which each of those called and elected.. cry Abba Father...

Its the Spirit who confirms it.. He witnesses it to our spirit.. We will know and We confess.. and keep confessing..no matter what the circumstances.. whether it be good times or bad times .. or at the moment we are leaving this planet ie phyical death..... that Jesus the Christ Is Lord and Savior.. and that He is Truly God in the flesh.. to the Glory of God the Father..

manichunter
Jul 9th 2008, 05:53 PM
Is there more to this election post guarantee.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 9th 2008, 06:31 PM
It is interesting to see that the wheat is bowed down, into a position that one would look at as submissive.
By their fruit you shall know them.....

Wheat can only produce wheat offspring, and tare kernels can only produce more tares.
A good tree can only produce good fruit and a diseased tree can only bear bad fruit.

Mat 12:33 "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit.

I don't think the wheat knows anymore what it is than the tares do.
However looking at the tares standing tall and proud, do they assume they are in the right place?
When their fruit comes in and all is ready for the harvest all will wait for that final judgment and they will then find where they belong.

The tares are bound first, and the wheat last. Does that not remind one of the saying "The first will be last, and the last will be first......"?

Shalom,
Tanja