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Soldier4Him
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:06 PM
A few days ago a friend and I were having a conversation about baptism and it's relevance to salvation. He holds to the opinion, as many do, that baptism is not a requirement for salvation. I on the other hand do not agree based on the following:

Basically, according to scripture, there are two kinds of baptism. One being the baptism of the Spirit and the other baptism of water. Baptism of the Spirit was a promise made by Jesus and was an outward sign that God's eternal kingdom had begun to establish itself on earth. Seeing that the manifestation of the Holy Spirit occurred after Christ ascended into heaven it is clear, to me anyway, that if anything baptism of the Spirit is a result of the work of salvation.

This means that there is only one baptism relative to salvation and that is baptism of water otherwise known as the baptism of John. This baptism had a specific purpose and it was not simply a gesture or an outward sign of our submission to Christ.

Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luk 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Luk 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

Interestingly enough in Luke 7:27 the word justified (dikaioō in the Greek) literally means to render just or innocent, to be righteous. This justification happened as a result of the baptism of John not simply in believing that Christ was who he said he was.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Why did Jesus come to John for water baptism?

Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness

Finally:

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

It seems to me that water baptism is far more than merely a gesture or an outward sign. It is a command by Jesus Himself:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


I would like to know your opinions on this topic. I do ask however PLEASE DO NOT refer me to books or another's commentary. I am only interested in your personal opinions based on scriptural evidence.God Bless!

Yours in Christ,
Soldier4Him

IBWatching
Jul 2nd 2008, 03:59 PM
Acts 19:1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they {said} to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.John's baptism could not bring the Holy Spirit. John said as much and so did Paul. Only Jesus Baptizes with the Holy Spirit. The commission which Paul was given by Jesus did not include water baptism:


1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.It is doubtful that Paul could "thank God" he didn't water baptize people if it was part of God's Salvation Work. But he did. What you see is the reverse of what I see. Believers have received the Baptism into Christ's Death and have been raised to a new life via the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is an outward sign or testimony that it has happened inside of us.

Soldier4Him
Jul 2nd 2008, 06:40 PM
To the best of my knowledge the Holy Spirit did not appear until after Christ had ascended into Heaven and even then there are only two recorded incidents of "baptism of the Spirit" in scripture. Also I believe it is important to note that only the Apostles that He (Jesus) had chosen and were baptized (the baptism of John) received the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1)

Secondly the command by Jesus to baptize as recorded in Mat 28:19 was to the existing Apostles of which Paul was not one. It is clear that Paul's ministry was not geared around baptism. It is also clear that the ministry of the 12 was to preform the baptism of John (for the remission of sin) in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit was part of their ministry as set forth by Jesus Himself.

Also for your consideration I'd like to add this:

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Peter is clearly using Noah and the flood to illustrate that God both cleansed and saved by water in the OT story and connects the OT to the NT through verse 21.

I'm interested to know what scriptural evidence there is that states that water baptism is merely a gesture or an outward sign. The scripture that I have presented seems to indicate otherwise.

Sold Out
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:15 PM
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Peter is clearly using Noah and the flood to illustrate that God both cleansed and saved by water in the OT story and connects the OT to the NT through verse 21.

I'm interested to know what scriptural evidence there is that states that water baptism is merely a gesture or an outward sign. The scripture that I have presented seems to indicate otherwise.

The verse you quoted above is proof that is it merely a symbol.

The greek word for 'like figure' is antitupos, which means 'symbol'. This same greek word is used in Hebrews 11:17-19,

"By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively (antitupos) speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

And in Hebrews 9:24, "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures (antitupos) of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:"

It's also interesting to note that Noah and his family were saved by getting OUT of the water, not in it.

Soldier4Him
Jul 3rd 2008, 04:42 AM
If we are going to get into word by word translation I believe we need to be more careful in our efforts.

First of all the Greek word antitupos is not being used here. The word being used is antitupon which is a derivative of the words:

anti - A primary particle; opposite, that is, instead or because of (rarely in addition to): - for, in the room of. Often used in composition to denote contrast, requital, substitution, correspondence, etc.

and

tupos - From G5180; a die (as struck), that is, (by implication) a stamp or scar; by analogy a shape, that is, a statue, (figuratively) style or resemblance; specifically a sampler (“type”), that is, a model (for imitation) or instance (for warning): - en- (ex-) ample,

I'd esplain hO\ as relative pronoun (but with the entire notion of coming safely through the flood-waters by the ark as its antecedent) and also the subject of SWiZEI, and BAPTISMA as appositional to hO\ with ANTITUPON as predicative: "which now (baptism) brings you also safely through, as a corresponding item."BDAG has (s.v. ANTITUPOS):"In a compressed statement, with rescue through water as the dominant theme ὃ (i.e. hUDWR) KAI hUMAS ANTITUPON NUN SWiZEI BAPTISMA baptism correspondingly now saves you, i.e. the salvation of Noah and family via water (δι᾿ ὕδατος), which supported the ark, is the τύπος for the salutary function of the water {p. 91} of baptism 1 Pt 3:21. "

A strict translation of this verse actually reads:

And this prefigured baptism, which now saves you – not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience to God – through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

According to Collins Essential American Dictonary (2nd Addition 1006) the word prefigured when being used as a verb means to represent or suggest in advance.

I have to leave for work, I will finish this post when I can.

Yours in Christ,

Soldier4Him

genesisblu
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:30 AM
I believe the baptism that 1 peter is referring to is the Baptism of the Cross, that saves you. There was a baptism in the water of Noah in that it cleansed the world. The water clearly did not save Noah and his family. The water is being referred to the work Christ accomplished on the cross. That is made available to us through our salvation, our baptism in Jesus Christ, believing on him. There are several clear examples of being people "baptized" in Christ which wasn't through the water baptism of John.

Johns baptism was for people to believe in God to see their need for Christ. But it is the blood of Jesus that cleans us, that we receive forgiveness. Nobody received forgiveness of sins through water baptism that was never the intent.

John baptized Jesus to reveal Him to Israel. That was the purpose of His baptism. All righteousness was not fulfilled until His death on the cross. A will (covenant) does not go into effect until there is a death.

Duane Morse
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:37 AM
I have a question, Soldier4Him.

If someone repents and accepts Christ on their death bed - are they saved even though they have not gone through a water baptism?
Or not?

Soldier4Him
Jul 3rd 2008, 10:35 AM
Good Morning All,

I will be a little busy this weekend and will be unable to participate in this discussion as much as I'd like. I thank you all for your opinions and hope to come to an understanding about this tenant of our faith.

For the time being I would like to give my thoughts on your question Duane. My answer is of course not. That would make God merciless and we all know He is far from that. I understand the point you are trying to make. I have thought about that myself.

My confusion seems to be coming from scriptures which state that the baptism of John (by water) is the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Also the scripture where Jesus commands baptism in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. Even more difficult for me to rationalize away is Mat 3:11 where John states that he did baptize with water unto repentance. He continues to speak of the baptism of the Holy Spirit which in and of itself does not give you salvation but is the fruit of water baptism. It is not true that no one who was not baptized (the baptism of John) received the Holy Spirit? If I am correct in the the former, that fact alone makes water baptism more than a gesture. Salvation and water baptism are connected at the hip or so it seems. Pauline Christians were taught by Paul himself that they could not become Christians until they were water baptized. These teachings were perpetuated by Polycarp and Ireneaus in the 1st and 2nd centuries and later by Justin Martyr and Bishop Cyprain of Carthage. I do understand the symbolism behind water baptism, our crucifixion, burial and resurrection. It still seems to me that there is something more here than mere symbolism and gestures.

Genesis - I would be interested in seeing the examples you speak of. Would you be so kind as to give me chapter and verse? All that I have managed to find thus far is baptism "in the name of Christ" which was also water baptism. (Acts 2:38)

Please understand that I feel there is a clear and present danger here. I do not have all of the answers and it seems as though I have far more questions than answers on this topic. The way I see it is the bible is not open to interpretation and there is only one truth. I also know that even the elect will be deceived in these times so I am very cautious in what I accept as truth. After all the bible does tell us to prove all things and hold onto what is good. As for me personally I was baptized 15 years ago when I turned to Christ so either way I am covered. My concern is that I never teach false doctrine.

I look forward to your input and thank you all in advance.

God Bless

matthew94
Jul 3rd 2008, 12:26 PM
1. Your 1st, 2nd & 4th references mention 'repentance' as the key to forgiveness. Baptism is the outward expression of an inward repentance.

2. What translation did you use for your 3rd reference? It doesn't seem to make your point. To me, that passage seems to describe John's baptism as preparatory for discipleship.

3. Your 5th reference doesn't make your point since Jesus didn't need forgiveness in the first place. It seems to me His answer is saying being baptized was a righteous example.

4. Not only is your 6th reference from a much disputed section of Mark, but it, once again, doesn't seem to make your point. It creates 2 categories: 1) Believers who have been baptized and 2) Unbelievers. This simply doesn't mention the small group of believers who are not baptized. Conversion and baptism were so linked (chronologically and symbollicly), that a lot of passages may sound like they are saying baptism is necessary when in fact it just reveals that baptism and conversion were largely inseparable in the early church.

5. Your 7th reference is a verse with many interpretations. I, for example, think the water is referring to birth. We are born, and then we need to be 'born-again'. This perfectly fits the context of John 3:4+6.

6. Your 8th reference is true. Baptism is a command of Christ. We should be baptized. But it simply does not follow that baptism is necessary for salvation. If missing the mark on a command of Christ equals no salvation, we are all going to miss the mark of heaven.

In short, I don't think any of your references in your first post make your ultimate point.

genesisblu
Jul 3rd 2008, 03:37 PM
Soldier, I will try to give you feed back on all that I have found regarding baptism. It was of GREAT importance to me as I...have never been baptized. This scared the crud out of me when people kept saying you have to be baptized to truly be saved. I had never heard that before I came online. So, began an intensive study on my part of the subject.

I am at peace with what I have concluded. I will try to give you all my reasons and be as thorough as possible. I don't always explain what I know in my head in writing very well so please ask questions any time you have them. It helps me clarify myself.

I am typing on a laptop which is really hard for me so it takes me a while to type things. The keys keep sticking on me and I have to correct constantly argg! So I may post in bits and pieces. I have learned a great deal about this subject. And I believe God has revealed to me that I am His child despite having never been baptized.

Just for the record please know this up front...I believe baptism is VERY important to a Christians life. Nothing I say is with the intent to lessen that. I do intend to get baptized as soon as I can.

TBC...

genesisblu
Jul 3rd 2008, 04:42 PM
Firstly, to truly understand, for me, meant understanding the meaning of the words being used when describing baptism:

Baptism:

to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
to overwhelm

Repentance:
the action or process of repenting especially for misdeeds or moral shortcomings

Remission:


release from bondage or imprisonment
forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

Secondly, for me, was to define how many baptisms there are in the bible. I have found 7 major baptisms:
4 dry baptisms:
The Baptism of Moses
The Baptism of the Cross
Baptism of the Holy Spirit
Baptism of Fire

3 wet baptisms:
The Baptism of John the Baptist
The Water Baptism of Jesus
The Believers Baptism

Baptisms are not NT only. They were ceremonial washings in the OT performed all the time as well as baptisms from God in various ways.

To understand why baptism was used in the NT I sought to find out what the purpose was. I began with John, of course, to determine what is mission or purpose was. This is what I found:
From the end of the OT to the beginning of the NT there was 400 years of silence. The people had become very corrupt during this time. Many were serving false gods, idols. There was a great deal of corruption in the area of sinning, i.e. adultery etc. They had become "crooked". John's purpose was to prepare the way of the Lord.
John 3: 3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:

“ The voice of one crying in the wilderness:

‘ Prepare the way of the LORD;
Make His paths straight."

It was to prepare the people, Jews specifically as baptism was not for Gentiles, to receive Jesus. The way of the Lord, was Jesus. First believing in God, second, what God says, third, that Jesus is His Son, fourth, believing in Jesus, and fifth, believing on Jesus. However, Jesus had not yet been revealed. Even John was unsure of who He was until during Jesus' baptism the dove, Holy Spirit, rested upon Him. (John 1:31) John first preached to the people to get them to recognize how sinful they had become and their need to repent of those sins. And for those worshiping false god's to come to a recognition and belief in God. We can't come to Jesus until we first believe in God and what He says about His Son.

TBC...

Beantown
Jul 3rd 2008, 05:20 PM
If I may I would rather not give my own opinion. I just want to use Scripture with just a small bit of explanation afterwards.

Mark 16:16 Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Jesus is saying believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic.

Acts 9:18 Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This whole story is a bit long to write here, but then I don't think it would be necessary. The conversion of Paul and his baptism demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. Baptism is still required.

There are quite a few other Scriptures which can be used to show that the above is correct, however, everyone of them leaves room for a person's opinion to change its meaning. Therefore I'm just sticking to the few which, as far as I can see, cannot be changed by a difference of opinion.


Beantown :bible:

BrckBrln
Jul 3rd 2008, 05:36 PM
Mark 16:16 Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Jesus is saying believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic.

"He who believes and lives in Kansas will be saved."

Mark 16:16 is not saying you have to believe and be baptized to be saved, it's simply saying that all who do believe and are baptized will be saved. In the same way that all people who believe and live in Kansas will also be saved. And maybe you should look at the second half of the verse and tell me what it says. Any mention of baptism?

Slug1
Jul 3rd 2008, 05:48 PM
Belief and faith in God was all it took for Cornelius, his family, and all his friends to be saved and to prove it to Simon Peter, he witnessed them all receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit BEFORE their water baptism... Acts 10.

genesisblu
Jul 3rd 2008, 06:11 PM
Every time we see the word baptize, baptism, baptized it does not always refer to water. You can be immersed in Christ and not be immersed in water. For example:

The Baptism of the Cross:
Isa 53:4-6
1 Peter 2:24
2 Cor 5:21
Mk 10:35-39 (cp Mt 20:20-23
specifically v.38
38 But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?”

Jesus was not referring to His baptism in water. Jesus is asking them, 'Can you suffer on the cross for the sins of the whole world, become totally immersed in the evil of the world - for the sake of righteousness?' Here He is talking about a baptism which is about to come upon Him, that He is to experience.

The cup refers to the cup of suffering. The cup being made of sin. cp Isa 53:4-6 He who knew no sin became sin for us in order to pay for the sins of the whole world. So the Father's wrath would fall upon the Son as He bore the sins of the world.

Jesus is here identified, is baptized, with our sins. And He is identified with those sins in His work on the cross. The evil of the world, its sins and even the evil of human originated "good" (actions done for "good" which are outside of the sovereignty of God) are placed upon Him so that He was actually immersed in evil. Christ was identified with the cross which represented the penalty for the sins of the whole world.

There are three that bear witness: 1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. When Jesus died His side was pierced. This was significant. John 19:34-35

34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.

The work necessary for salvation was complete on the cross. All three elements present, the Holy Spirit, the water, and the blood. It is God's testimony. Which when we believe cleanses our hearts, testifies to our consciences, forgives us our sins, sets us free from bondage, reconciles us to God, and releases us from the penalty of death. It is all done, once for all. No more is the obeying of sins, cleansing from water ceremonies, atoning from blood of sacrifices, being circumcised required. It was all covered.

Water baptism is our witness to men that this has occurred in our lives, believing on Him is our witness before God. it is important that we reveal our witness to God before men to show others it is the Truth.

When we become born again we are born of the water and Spirit.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
The water is the Word, Jesus, the gospel. The washing of the water of the word, and belief in God the Father and His Son.
The Spirit is the seal of the covenant we receive through our Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Eph 1:13
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 5:26
26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,
Hebrews 10:22
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
1 Peter 3:21
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The pure water is the spring of living waters, Jesus, eternal life. The baptism that saves is not the washing of the body but the washing done by Jesus, the water, through the hearing and believing of the gospel, who is the gospel, the word, or as in the water which washed the world from sin and evil in Noah's case, it is the answer of a good conscience, our believing on Him, the washing through His water and blood of us done on the cross.

Prayin_saint
Jul 3rd 2008, 06:29 PM
Going back in time a little bit...


John's baptism could not bring the Holy Spirit. John said as much and so did Paul. Only Jesus Baptizes with the Holy Spirit. The commission which Paul was given by Jesus did not include water baptism:

It is doubtful that Paul could "thank God" he didn't water baptize people if it was part of God's Salvation Work. But he did. What you see is the reverse of what I see. Believers have received the Baptism into Christ's Death and have been raised to a new life via the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is an outward sign or testimony that it has happened inside of us.


But what about Acts 19?

Acts 19
Paul in Ephesus
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.

4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

I'm curious- Why would Paul Baptise these people again? If a baptism into the name of/ into the possession of Jesus Christ is only an additional act, not part of salvation...why bother? (Not my main point- but to answer my own question. As has been brought up 1 Peter 3 "answer of a good conscience toward God" and Acts 2:38 "Forgivness of Sins" AND " so that you may receive the Holy Spirit". Which is expecially illustrated above.)

Also (too long to copy/paste) Acts 8? Philip tells the Ethiopian man the gospel. We don't 'hear' what Philip says to him- but in the process of explaining the gospel, baptism must've come up at some point because the Ethiopian says, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"

All of this, though just a simple look, compelling for me. Sure, we don't see baptism at every conversion story. (But if the church at the time already included baptism as part of the gospel, why should they always give 'and then they went and found a river and were baptised' at every conversion. 'and they were saved' or 'were added' seem like sufficient, all-inclusive statements to me.)

Thanks, guys! This is a great discussion!
Sarah :hug:

genesisblu
Jul 3rd 2008, 06:46 PM
Belief and faith in God was all it took for Cornelius, his family, and all his friends to be saved and to prove it to Simon Peter, he witnessed them all receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit BEFORE their water baptism... Acts 10.

Great example. Cornelius received the Holy Spirit upon the hearing of the word, gospel. Not just hearing it of course but the hearing and believing upon it.

He further realizes his error in thinking that water baptism had to be performed to be a receiver of the gift of God:
Acts 11:16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”
18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

Peter clearly says it was not when they (Peter- himself and those he was speaking to) were baptized in water that they received the Holy Spirit it was when they themselves believed on the Lord Jesus Christ that it happened.

student of the Lamb
Jul 3rd 2008, 06:49 PM
First of all, Matthew 28:19 says, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit....." These are the worde of Jesus Christ to His disciples, the Great Commission.

Secondly, in Acts 8:36 the eunuch said to Phillip, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?" The word used in the Greek translation is "baptizo" which is defined as to immerse, to dip or to dunk.

How did Jesus begin His ministry? With His baptism.
How did He conclude His ministry? He commanded baptism.

Baptism is a Bible doctrine.

By changing the method of "baptism", the meaning of baptism is changed. Baptism by immersion is symbolic of the death (by going down into the water), the burial (a liquid tomb) and resurrection (coming out of the water) as a new person in Christ. It is an outward expression of an inner change.

Baptism is a means of identification. We are identified with Jesus through baptism.

Baptism is also a means for us to be obedient to Christ.

Baptism is necessary to go to heaven but it is not without special circumstances such as death bed confessions.

Slug1
Jul 3rd 2008, 06:52 PM
Baptism is necessary to go to heaven but it is not without special circumstances such as death bed confessions.The thief being a prime example... any other scripture to support this?

genesisblu
Jul 3rd 2008, 06:56 PM
But what about Acts 19?

Acts 19
Paul in Ephesus
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.

4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.


Not sure why you use this as an example for receiving the Holy Spirit by water baptism. It actually shows the opposite. (Unless I misunderstood you then I apologize) When they were baptized in water they clearly had not believed on Jesus or they would have received the Holy Spirit simultaneously. John either didn't preach Jesus, which we know isn't possible - or they didn't listen to or fully comprehend the message being preached. Once Paul explained the gospel again to them and they heard and believed on it they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. As far as I am aware this is the only account where laying on of hands was applied during receiving of the Holy Spirit. The laying on of hands is also the way of receiving further empowering of the Holy Spirit on believers. It can occur separately from being marked with the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation. The gift of prophecy having also been received by some of these is evidence of further empowerment. Although it does not indicate that this happened separately from hearing this possibly occurred simultaneously. Either way, it was when they heard that they became baptized into the name of the Lord. A lot happened during this particular event.

genesisblu
Jul 3rd 2008, 06:59 PM
First of all, Matthew 28:19 says, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit....." These are the worde of Jesus Christ to His disciples, the Great Commission.

Secondly, in Acts 8:36 the eunuch said to Phillip, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?" The word used in the Greek translation is "baptizo" which is defined as to immerse, to dip or to dunk.

How did Jesus begin His ministry? With His baptism.
How did He conclude His ministry? He commanded baptism.

Baptism is a Bible doctrine.

By changing the method of "baptism", the meaning of baptism is changed. Baptism by immersion is symbolic of the death (by going down into the water), the burial (a liquid tomb) and resurrection (coming out of the water) as a new person in Christ. It is an outward expression of an inner change.

Baptism is a means of identification. We are identified with Jesus through baptism.

Baptism is also a means for us to be obedient to Christ.

Baptism is necessary to go to heaven but it is not without special circumstances such as death bed confessions.

Yes, baptism is a commandment, also is obeying the NT law, also is preaching the gospel, none of which will "save" you. Are you suggesting that we are also now saved by works?

fewarechosen
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:01 PM
Not sure why you use this as an example for receiving the Holy Spirit by water baptism. It actually shows the opposite. (Unless I misunderstood you then I apologize) When they were baptized in water they clearly had not believed on Jesus or they would have received the Holy Spirit simultaneously. John either didn't preach Jesus, which we know isn't possible - or they didn't listen to or fully comprehend the message being preached. Once Paul explained the gospel again to them and they heard and believed on it they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. As far as I am aware this is the only account where laying on of hands was applied during receiving of the Holy Spirit. The laying on of hands is also the way of receiving further empowering of the Holy Spirit on believers. It can occur separately from being marked with the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation. The gift of prophecy having also been received by some of these is evidence of further empowerment. Although it does not indicate that this happened separately from hearing this possibly occurred simultaneously. Either way, it was when they heard that they became baptized into the name of the Lord. A lot happened during this particular event.

well said....... ;)

student of the Lamb
Jul 3rd 2008, 08:32 PM
Yes, baptism is a commandment, also is obeying the NT law, also is preaching the gospel, none of which will "save" you. Are you suggesting that we are also now saved by works?


Sorry. I did make a point but it was the wrong point. I got hung on baptism and not salvation. Salvation does come first and baptism is the second step. I did say that baptism is and outward expression of an inward change. That is to say that the change has already ocurred before the baptism.

genesisblu
Jul 3rd 2008, 08:54 PM
Sorry. I did make a point but it was the wrong point. I got hung on baptism and not salvation. Salvation does come first and baptism is the second step. I did say that baptism is and outward expression of an inward change. That is to say that the change has already ocurred before the baptism.

Thanks for clarifying and sorry for misunderstanding. I mess up my points too :)

student of the Lamb
Jul 3rd 2008, 09:09 PM
Regretfully my first post in this thread was made in haste and my second was made with dreery eyes after a busy day.

As part of a "FAITH" evangelistic outreach team we have been taught to bring those people who are lost to a point where they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. Then, we ask that person to make a public profession in front of family, friends and the congregation. We do try to follow up with baptism as well. Not always are we able to get some of these people to follow through on public profession and baptism.

We have been told that if that person accepts Jesus Christ that they will have salvation. This does seem to be contradictory to what I have said earlier regarding baptism being necessary. My notes on baptism from the same pastor who leads our "FAITH" ministry just say that baptism is necessary. It does not say that it is necessary for salvation. The point that comes to mind is that Christ wants us to stand before others and tell them that they believe in Jesus Christ and that they have repented of their sins. He wants that public profession and He wants that outward display of the inward change. This has raised a question that I will definitely want to ask this Sunday of our pastor. Not to worry. The pastor I have is as on the ball as any I have ever been around. I am sure that he will have a good answer for me.

Soldier4Him
Jul 4th 2008, 03:16 PM
just stopping by...........

First of all I want to say you guys (and gals) are awesome. I think it's wonderful that you all have such a passion for the truth that you have put in all of this time to find it. I also feel that both sides make good arguments for their position (even if the opposing side does not see it).

I can't say that I feel any closer to knowing the truth than I did before. I believe God will reveal it to me in His time. In either event I accepted Christ as my Saviour some 15 years ago and was baptized at that time so I feel safe as far as my salvation goes. Sadly though I could never teach this topic in so much as I don't feel confident that I possess the truth about it. I guess for the time being, if asked, I would advise to err on the safe side and get baptized.

Genesisblu - I don't know weather you are a brother or a sister but a special thanks to you for your effort. God Bless You!

God Bless You All !

godsgirl
Jul 4th 2008, 03:23 PM
The Holy Spirit baptises us into the body of Christ
Another Christian baptises us in water
Jesus baptises believers in the Holy Spirit.

genesisblu
Jul 4th 2008, 04:52 PM
just stopping by...........

First of all I want to say you guys (and gals) are awesome. I think it's wonderful that you all have such a passion for the truth that you have put in all of this time to find it. I also feel that both sides make good arguments for their position (even if the opposing side does not see it).

I can't say that I feel any closer to knowing the truth than I did before. I believe God will reveal it to me in His time. In either event I accepted Christ as my Saviour some 15 years ago and was baptized at that time so I feel safe as far as my salvation goes. Sadly though I could never teach this topic in so much as I don't feel confident that I possess the truth about it. I guess for the time being, if asked, I would advise to err on the safe side and get baptized.

Genesisblu - I don't know weather you are a brother or a sister but a special thanks to you for your effort. God Bless You!

God Bless You All !

You're welcome, I am but just a little sister :)

We can consider other's opinions but you really have to get the answers from God and God alone. So I say nothing in effort to try to convince you or anyone of anything. I am certainly not God. :)

BTW - that isn't everything I learned about baptism but it's a bit...I realized when I was responding to you before that I just couldn't write everything down. Some of what I learned is only in my head and some from hundred's (literally) of pages of written things (including the bible). So I realized I just couldn't write it all to you.

I dedicated a couple of weeks straight to trying to find out the answer to this. I literally woke up went straight to the bible, commentaries, web resources etc and stayed up until 3 in the morning just reading and questioning and reading and questioning. I cried and cried and prayed and prayed. Before my search on this I read the bible and would get SO frustrated because seriously it just read like stereo instructions to me. I could understand the plainly written scriptures well enough but could never seem to understand anything beyond that.

I have had the ability to speak in tongues since I was a teen. But have only done so on rare occasion, it just seemed weird to me. But at any rate I can. That was always one thing during all this that kept coming to mind. Before this last month I would say I haven't done it in years. I had kind of forgotten I even could. But something inside me kept saying "I gave you a gift, a sign you are My child".

I said "yes but people keep saying I am not truly saved". I thought what if my "gift" wasn't from God and I only thought it was?! So I continued in my search.

My mom has told me in my frustration to understand scripture that I should just pray and God would reveal what His word is saying. So I had a couple times, read more and still nothing. I thought well sorry mom that just doesn't really work for me.

I don't know what happened but one day when I was reading during this search things just seem to become more and more and more clear to me. I went online and asked what other people saw in the scriptures that I thought I was finally understanding and they too understood it the same way. I believe that was confirmation. I began to understand things about all kinds of subjects in the bible. I thought oh God thank you! You are showing me things aren't you? Again I felt something inside saying "you are My child".

Then I said I still need to know, am I supposed to be baptized before I am really saved? People for and against have good "arguments" for supporting what they say. So I remained confused. Then it felt, I can consider those interpretations but my answer must really come from God. So, questions began to come to mind...
(I swear God must have thought at this point how many times do I have to tell this poor girl? Thankfully God is so patient. He knew I just wanted to do what is right. He knows my heart.)

Why would I be getting baptized?
So I can come out of the water and say 'oh good now I am truly saved?'
So I can come out of the water and say 'I obeyed my Father's command?'
People online kept saying if you get baptized for the wrong reason it's no good, you may as well never have done it...
Oh I was so confused! More crying, more praying...please God please just tell me I don't want to do it for the wrong reasons. I know that I want to if for no other reason that to just be obedient to you. Father people keep saying if I don't do it right it wouldn't be good enough.

-And here I have to give a tiny bit of insight about myself. My biggest fear has always been not being "good enough" for God. That is the one reason I ran from God years ago, it kept me from Him. Anything that keeps you from God is not of God. That fear is the one thing I knew satan could play on with me. It's the one thing that would cause me to get baptized for the wrong reason thinking I had saved myself by my baptism. I rebuked him and any spirit of confusion on me.

I believe this is what I heard: 'My basic truth is that you put your faith in Me'. I felt inside 'I have given you gifts, I have shown you you are My child, trust in Me'. I then thought about that inward conversation I seemed to be having and concluded this: if I get baptized and say ok good now I am safe then I have put at least part of my salvation in the hands of myself and someone else. God says put our TOTAL faith in Him. So, I feel I will get baptized to obey, not for salvation. I am trusting my total salvation in the hands of Him alone literally because if I die before I can get baptized that is all I will be able to say to the Father. I believe He has told me that is what will be honored. I felt a lead weight on my heart, my spirit, every time I thought I need to get baptized so I can say I am saved. I felt peace when I thought my salvation is not of my doing or anyone else's but in His hands alone.

God will show you the answer that will bring you peace from Him over it. Just keep asking until you feel a peace about it. He is faithful, He will give you that. He will never give His child a stone when they ask for bread. :)

Soldier4Him
Jul 5th 2008, 12:25 PM
Dearest Sister in Christ,

Thank you for your input and advice. I understand your frustration at times as well as your desire to seek the truth. I also seek the truth. Not to be right for the sake of being right and not to argue to prove I am right.

My major concern on this topic, and the reason for my caution, comes from the understanding that in these times deception is running rampant. All we need do is look at the divisions between the body of Christ, a body torn apart by doctrinal dogma, to see that deception is a cancer eating away at the inner core of the body. Not to mention the arrogance of many who believe they alone hold the keys to the truth.

Satan's plan is to separate us (the body of Christ) from our Father in Heaven. I'd say he's doing a great job so far. I am thankful for Christians such as yourself and others who honestly desire to seek out the truth for the purpose of edifying the body and not to prove a point or win an argument.

God Bless!

Trailblazer
Jul 5th 2008, 03:20 PM
What Is Baptism?

Is baptism required for salvation?


http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/images/beautiful_waterfall.jpgIsn't the water in the photo to the left beautiful? As lovely as it is, it's just water my friend...it cannot save you.
In the Old Testament period, baptism was a ritual of conversion to Judaism. Pagans would become proselytes through this ritual by self-baptizing themselves to become part of the Jewish people. So it was an Identification with the people of God.
"In the name of Jesus" distinguishes the Christian baptism from all others at that time. This is not referring to the formula said over a person, but indicated a confession in Christ which was made publicly. To be baptized in Jesus' name was the command to the hearers of the Gospel. Does this contradict Matt. 28:19 of being baptized in the Trinitarian formula? No, Jesus is the sole representative of the triune God in bodily form. We are told there is no other name by which one is to be saved. He alone is the fullness of the Godhead (bodily.)
His name was used to represent the Godhead to the hearers of the Gospel, distinguishing it from the other baptisms of their day. Church history and tradition shows the Trinitarian form, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, was the method of baptism (MT.28). There are two major ordinances in the New Testament, baptism and the Lord's supper. In the Old Testament, the major ordinances were circumcision and the Passover. The Passover was changed to the Lord's supper and points back to the death of Christ and His future return. It is a memorial which we take until He comes, identifying with His death and second coming. While the Old Testament circumcision was of the flesh, the New Testament circumcision is of the heart, an internal renewal by the Spirit, a cutting away of the sins of the flesh. (Col. 2:11,13 ; Phil. 3:3). Mistakes are made when one uses an ordinance which is a symbol and makes it an actual occurrence of grace. People misplace faith in the ordinances to get what they symbolize. Take, for example, the Catholic view of the Lord's supper as being able to impart grace; the same as with baptism. In the third century, believers started to baptize their children before any confession of faith. They related this to the rite of circumcision, which was applied to sons at eight days old, so similarly, baptism was applied to children. Yet it is by faith and God's grace one is saved. No work of man or any kind of Biblical ritual can impart grace. Salvation is neither a creed, a doctrine, nor ordinance. It is found only in a person - Jesus Christ and His work on the cross, and that was done for us.
Almost every covenant had a sign or token along with it. For Noah, it was the rainbow; for Abraham, it was circumcision; for Moses, it was the Sabbath; and for the new covenant of grace, it is baptism by water. None of these were the covenant itself but a token of one's entry into a covenant with God. All were visible means for the participants in it. Baptism is to identify with a person, a group of people, or the message. As Christians this has been practiced as an ordinance. It is a symbol and witness of the change of ownership that has taken place for us. We identify with the Lord Jesus, His message, and the body of believers. It is a symbol of my old life being dead (I was crucified and buried with Christ and raised up to newness of life). This new life takes place at the cross by His death and resurrection, not when I'm immersed in water. Those who heard John's and Jesus' message and believed, were obedient to be baptized in water as the visible sign of their repentance. It is a symbol, not the substance.
Some References of Baptism and Faith used in the New Testament Books:

Book of the Bible
Water Baptism Faith Mentioned Mark 6 19 John 1 95 Acts 9 53 Romans 1 35 1 Corinthians 1 (good), 5(negative) 17 Galatians 1 22 Ephesians 0 10 Philippians 0 6 Colossians 1 5 Hebrews 0 43 1 John 0 6

This is by no means an exhaustive comparison, yet, this shows the overall usage of both baptism and faith. The Bible teaches that by God's grace; through faith the means, salvation is given. Over 240 times, faith (belief) is the only required condition for salvation. The book of John which teaches who Jesus is and how one can be saved mentions salvation by belief (faith) 95 times. The basic Biblical principle of interpretation (hermeneutics) is that we don't ever interpret the major portion of Scripture by the lesser. A natural example: The branches of a tree never interpret the trunk. The trunk is what upholds the branches. It is the main strength that gives life to those that extend out from it. If we look at the book of Acts which shows the practices of early Christianity we find some very revealing facts...

Instances where baptism is mentioned in the book of Acts: Acts 2:37-41; 8:5-13; 8:37, 38; 9:1-18, 22; 10:43,48; 16:14, 30-34; 18:8; and 19:5 (a total of 9 times, which are always attached to faith)

Instances where baptism is not mentioned: Acts 2:47; 4:4; 5:14; 6:7; 9:35, 42; 11:21, 24; 12:24; l3:12, 43, 48; 14:1, 7,22,27; 16:5; 17:4, 12, 34; 19:17-20; 26:18 28:23, 24 (a total of 22 times there are conversions with faith and no hint of baptism)
This does not mean they disposed of the rite of baptism. What it does indicate is that salvation is found outside the practice of baptism. Nowhere does it say "to be baptized to be saved" by itself. However you will find faith separate from baptism for salvation. The greater context in scripture always teaches salvation occurs before baptism. No one followed Jesus to be saved, nor were they baptized to be saved. If they were pronounced saved by their faith before baptism then baptism is clearly not part of the gospel.
Christ offered himself as salvation to the people. Mary when found with the child said she rejoiced in "God my Saviour" (Luke 1:47). Simeon likewise in Luke 2:29-30 said as he held the baby Jesus, "Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation." Salvation is never referred to as a "rite" or an "ordinance" -salvation is a Person. This is what makes Christianity different from religion, it is not by works.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/Doctrines/what_is_baptism.htm

genesisblu
Jul 5th 2008, 03:43 PM
Hi Trail,

All good information, the only thing I would say just slightly different from what was written is that the sign of our new covenant is not water baptism but the Holy Spirit. :)

Trailblazer
Jul 5th 2008, 03:56 PM
Hi Trail,

All good information, the only thing I would say just slightly different from what was written is that the sign of our new covenant is not water baptism but the Holy Spirit. :)

Thanks!

The only question I really have for the people who believe in water baptism salvation is........if a person BELIEVES in Jesus Christ but yet has not been baptized in water, are you going to tell me that Jesus will reject that person and send them into the Lake of fire because they didn't get baptized but yet believed upon Him? :o

There is nothing that WE can do to earn our way into heaven...Salvation is a FREE GIFT FROM GOD...by Grace are ye saved through FAITH...and that not of yourselves...lest any man should boast.

John 3:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ephesians 2:
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

genesisblu
Jul 5th 2008, 04:08 PM
Thanks!

The only question I really have for the people who believe in water baptism salvation is........if a person BELIEVES in Jesus Christ but yet has not been baptized in water, are you going to tell me that Jesus will reject that person and send them into the Lake of fire because they didn't get baptized but yet believed upon Him? :o

There is nothing that WE can do to earn our way into heaven...Salvation is a FREE GIFT FROM GOD...by Grace are ye saved through FAITH...and that not of yourselves...lest any man should boast.

John 3:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ephesians 2:
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

No, no, no...don't get me wrong...I do NOT believe that we receive the Holy Spirit only through water baptism. It can, yes, but doesn't always. So I do not believe water baptism saves, only Christ does.

p.s. don't know if you read my previous posts, but I have not been water baptized yet, and I am a child of God. :)

Trailblazer
Jul 5th 2008, 04:10 PM
No, no, no...don't get me wrong...I do NOT believe that we receive the Holy Spirit only through water baptism. It can, yes, but doesn't always. So I do not believe water baptism saves, only Christ does.

I'm sorry, I was referring to the people here who seem to believe in water baptism Salvation...sorry for the confusion. ;)

genesisblu
Jul 5th 2008, 04:28 PM
I'm sorry, I was referring to the people here who seem to believe in water baptism Salvation...sorry for the confusion. ;)

Ahhh ok no prob, just didn't want anyone to think I was one of those people :)

Beantown
Jul 6th 2008, 05:08 AM
"He who believes and lives in Kansas will be saved."

Mark 16:16 is not saying you have to believe and be baptized to be saved, it's simply saying that all who do believe and are baptized will be saved. In the same way that all people who believe and live in Kansas will also be saved. And maybe you should look at the second half of the verse and tell me what it says. Any mention of baptism?

Hi BrckBrln,
I believe your comment "...and live in Kansas" is just an analogy to mean that it could be "anything" and "believed".
What you're saying sounds good except that you are playing fast and loose with the Word of God. Not only is your comment changing the words of Scripture, you are also changing the very words that Jesus spoke. You are changing the words that Jesus, our God, has spoken. Maybe our spiritual ancestors Luther and Calvin can get away with this, but, with all due respect, you cannot.


Then when Jesus says, "but he who does not believe will be condemned", is a demonstration that one can be baptised and still not be a believer. One may not believe and still be baptized, however one cannot disbelieve and expect salvation.

Beantown :)

coffee cup
Jul 6th 2008, 05:10 AM
A few days ago a friend and I were having a conversation about baptism and it's relevance to salvation. He holds to the opinion, as many do, that baptism is not a requirement for salvation. I on the other hand do not agree based on the following:

Basically, according to scripture, there are two kinds of baptism. One being the baptism of the Spirit and the other baptism of water. Baptism of the Spirit was a promise made by Jesus and was an outward sign that God's eternal kingdom had begun to establish itself on earth. Seeing that the manifestation of the Holy Spirit occurred after Christ ascended into heaven it is clear, to me anyway, that if anything baptism of the Spirit is a result of the work of salvation.

This means that there is only one baptism relative to salvation and that is baptism of water otherwise known as the baptism of John. This baptism had a specific purpose and it was not simply a gesture or an outward sign of our submission to Christ.

Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luk 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Luk 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

Interestingly enough in Luke 7:27 the word justified (dikaioō in the Greek) literally means to render just or innocent, to be righteous. This justification happened as a result of the baptism of John not simply in believing that Christ was who he said he was.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Why did Jesus come to John for water baptism?

Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness

Finally:

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

It seems to me that water baptism is far more than merely a gesture or an outward sign. It is a command by Jesus Himself:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

God Bless!

Yours in Christ,
Soldier4Him

Ephesians 4:5-6
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5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.




1 Peter 3:20-22
(http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=2)
20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.





Titus 3:5-7 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

Romans 6:3
3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?


Galatians 3:26-27
Galatians 3:26-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=2)
Sons of God 26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.



Ephesians 5:25-26

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,



Luke 7:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=2)
30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)John 3:5-6

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

John 4:1
[URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=2"] (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=2)
John 4
Jesus Talks With a Samaritan Woman
1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John,

genesisblu
Jul 6th 2008, 06:12 AM
How can you say that salvation comes first then baptism? What exactly does that mean? Are you saying that I'm saved before I get Born Again (the whole process: repent,get baptized,receive the Holy Ghost)? I really don't think so... Jesus plainly says in John 3:5 "Verily verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." So tell me how am I saved before baptism when Jesus clearly tells me I can't enter into heaven unless I'm baptized?
The water does not refer to water baptism. What did Jesus tell the Samaritan woman?
John4:13 Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again,
14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

That is the water you must be born again of, Spiritual water not physical water.

I would also point you to the example in Acts 10
42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

It is quite clear they were born again before they were baptized in water.

Even Peter remembered why: Acts 11
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”

It is not John's baptism that one receives the Holy Spirit, the seal and mark of the new covenant as children of God, it is through believing in Him.

Soldier4Him
Jul 7th 2008, 01:30 AM
Hi All,

Again being very short on time I must be brief.

Here is some food for thought. Many people say it is belief in Christ alone that saves. Does that mean that Satan is saved? Who knows better than any man exactly who Jesus is and believes that he is who he is? The demons in Mat 8:29 also know exactly who Jesus was? Did they not believe he was who he was? Were they saved? No

More to come.

God Bless

BrckBrln
Jul 7th 2008, 01:33 AM
Hi All,

Again being very short on time I must be brief.

Here is some food for thought. Many people say it is belief in Christ alone that saves. Does that mean that Satan is saved? Who knows better than any man exactly who Jesus is and believes that he is who he is? The demons in Mat 8:29 also know exactly who Jesus was? Did they not believe he was who he was? Were they saved? No

More to come.

God Bless

But the demons faith is not saving faith. It produces no works. Read James 2. As I said before, we are saved by faith alone, but this faith in not alone.

genesisblu
Jul 7th 2008, 01:44 AM
There is a very big difference between ascentia faith and fiducia faith. Ascentia is the mental ascent, the mental acknowledgment of something's existence. The demons acknowledge and believe that God exists. Fiducia is more than mental acknowledgment. It involves a trust in something, a giving over to it, a complete believing and acceptance of something. This is the kind of faith that a Christian has in Christ. A Christian, therefore, has fiducia; that is, he has real faith and trust in Christ, not simply an acknowledgment that He lived on earth at one time. Another way to put this is that there are many people in the world who believed that Jesus lived: ascentia. But they do not believe that He is their savior, the one to be looked to and trusted for the forgiveness of their sins.

Fiducia believers do not submit their selves to the authority of God, fiducia believers do.

Soldier4Him
Jul 7th 2008, 02:04 AM
coffee cup

First of all posting in such large script is very rude. It is the same as people yelling to be heard. I will not even consider what you have to say if you do it again. Please tone the text down. Thank You.

Secondly I don't use bibles that paraphrase. I rely on the closest interpretation to the original text as I can find. Your translation is faulty. Using 1Pet 3:20 as an example the word symbolizes does not appear anywhere in the Greek text.

God Bless!

Soldier4Him
Jul 7th 2008, 02:19 AM
Gen

I didn't say anything about faith. I simply stated that they believed (they knew perhaps better than any human) that Jesus was who he said he was.

Personally I believe a big part of the problem in the issue of interpretation of scripture is that people tend to over intellectualize it. I believe that God intended His Word to be understood by anyone who reads it with the right heart through the power of the Holy Spirit. The Word of God should be able to stand on it's own. That is why I seldom use bible commentary and alike. I will at times go to the Hebrew or Greek for a clearer understanding of a particular text but that's it.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

God Bless!

student of the Lamb
Jul 7th 2008, 02:19 PM
Regretfully my first post in this thread was made in haste and my second was made with dreery eyes after a busy day.

As part of a "FAITH" evangelistic outreach team we have been taught to bring those people who are lost to a point where they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. Then, we ask that person to make a public profession in front of family, friends and the congregation. We do try to follow up with baptism as well. Not always are we able to get some of these people to follow through on public profession and baptism.

We have been told that if that person accepts Jesus Christ that they will have salvation. This does seem to be contradictory to what I have said earlier regarding baptism being necessary. My notes on baptism from the same pastor who leads our "FAITH" ministry just say that baptism is necessary. It does not say that it is necessary for salvation. The point that comes to mind is that Christ wants us to stand before others and tell them that they believe in Jesus Christ and that they have repented of their sins. He wants that public profession and He wants that outward display of the inward change. This has raised a question that I will definitely want to ask this Sunday of our pastor. Not to worry. The pastor I have is as on the ball as any I have ever been around. I am sure that he will have a good answer for me.

Salvation does come before baptism. Baptism is the first act of obedience to Christ as a new born Christian.

EDIT: This is to say that once a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and repents of their sins their first act of obedience to Christ is to be baptized..

student of the Lamb
Jul 7th 2008, 08:22 PM
A person does not become a Christian until they repent of their sins and confess with their mouthes that Jesus Christ is their Savior and Lord. The first act of obedience to Christ as a new Christian is to be baptized. My apologies if I didn't spell that out clearly enough.

losthorizon
Jul 7th 2008, 11:31 PM
Salvation does come before baptism. Baptism is the first act of obedience to Christ as a new born Christian.

EDIT: This is to say that once a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and repents of their sins their first act of obedience to Christ is to be baptized..
Does your Bible read – (1) “he who believes and is saved shall be baptized” or does it read (2) “he who believes and is baptized shall be saved”?
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mar 16:15-16).

keck553
Jul 7th 2008, 11:37 PM
There are many types of baptism. This one isn't the water one. This one refers to Ruach HaKodesh.

On edit, I think baptism is an awesome, joyous and an obedient expression of our faith in God. To me it meant the surrender of my life to the will of Eloheim and liberation from my old nature. However, the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus was totally sufficient in every way for salvation, eternal life, and to become Holy unto Him, for His use and His purposes.

losthorizon
Jul 7th 2008, 11:58 PM
There are many types of baptism. This one isn't the water one. This one refers to Ruach HaKodesh.

On edit, I think baptism is an awesome, joyous and an obedient expression of our faith in God. To me it meant the surrender of my life to the will of Eloheim and liberation from my old nature. However, the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus was totally sufficient in every way for salvation, eternal life, and to become Holy unto Him, for His use and His purposes.
To which baptism are you ascribing Ruach Ha Kodesh? The baptism of the Great Commission is nothing less than the immersion of a believer in water in the name of God…
“Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer’s faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Savior, the believer’s death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord’s Supper.” ~ 1963 Baptist Faith and Message Statement

student of the Lamb
Jul 8th 2008, 12:07 AM
In a conversation withmy pastor yesturday in order to clarify my thoughts, his exact words to me were that a person can have eternal life by repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. That person does not have to be baptised but because baptism is the frist step of obedience to Christ, I can only assume that the person is not continuing to build a closer walk with Christ.

losthorizon
Jul 8th 2008, 12:24 AM
In a conversation withmy pastor yesturday in order to clarify my thoughts, his exact words to me were that a person can have eternal life by repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. That person does not have to be baptised but because baptism is the frist step of obedience to Christ, I can only assume that the person is not continuing to build a closer walk with Christ.
With all due respect to your pastor - ask him (or invite him to come on board) how he resolves the fact that Jesus commanded both belief and baptism before one is saved just as Peter commanded both repentance and baptism before one’s sins are remitted (taken away)…
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Acts 2:37-41 (KJV)

COMFORTER
Jul 8th 2008, 01:45 PM
I will make this simple and understand that I know this as truth. Baptism is not a requirement for being saved, although the word 'saved' is also misunderstood in some respect. Lets first note that there are two forms of saved.

1. Saved = You will enter into the kingdom of heaven.
2. Saved = You are protected from evil and demonic activity.

In order to be Saved(Definition 1), you simply have to acknowledge only three things.


God is real
God is love
Jesus Christ is your savior

However, being Saved(Definition 2) requires Baptism as this (for lack of a non-earthly explanation) is like saying that one is 'Super-Charged' with the Holy Spirit giving one the ability to not only repel but cast out demons and devils. Baptism is a requirement if you choose to preach the word of God also because it ensures that evil is not interfering with the those who you speak to. Evil entities cannot exist anywhere within your presence lest your faith diminishes and the Holy Spirit is gone. If that ever happens then woe is you... For evil will then come to you seven-fold.

student of the Lamb
Jul 8th 2008, 09:09 PM
Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Ephesians 2:8-9 - For it is by grace you are saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.
Romans 10:9 - That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and you believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with you heart you believe and you are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and you are saved.
Matthew 3:15 - (regarding baptism) Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness."
As I said earlier, salvation comes before baptism. After, I say again after, being saved it is our duty of obedience to Christ to follow up by baptism through immersion. This is a step towards righteousness; refining, purifying and sanctifying ourselves in God's all righteous and holy eyes.

keck553
Jul 8th 2008, 10:39 PM
To which baptism are you ascribing Ruach Ha Kodesh? The baptism of the Great Commission is nothing less than the immersion of a believer in water in the name of God…

“Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer’s faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Savior, the believer’s death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord’s Supper.” ~ 1963 Baptist Faith and Message Statement


Mar 16:15 Then he said to them, "As you go throughout the world, proclaim the Good News to all creation.
Mar 16:16 Whoever trusts and is immersed will be saved; whoever does not trust will be condemned.

Mat 28:19 Therefore, go and make people from all nations into talmidim, immersing them into the reality of the Father, the Son and the Ruach HaKodesh,
Mat 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember! I will be with you always, yes, even until the end of the age."

What we need to remember is that Jesus was a Jew. Also that the New Testament was written by Messianic Jews.

In Hebrew the term for water immersion (baptism) is 'tevilah' and is traditioanlly known as a ceremonial immersion. The Hebrew term symbolizes the change of status of a particular item or person being set apart for a particular purpose.

The actual device used in Hebrew is called a 'mikvah,' which means 'gathreing together', or 'collection.' Mikvah also carries the meaning of 'hope', or a gathering of something waited for, a reservior of confidence.

So why did Jesus need to come to John to be immersed?

Much confusion comes from the idea that whenever immersion is called, it refers to the same thing. Jesus used it to express His being completely immersed in His Father's will, yielding His life as an offering.

This type of baptism isn't the one we usually think of:

Mat 20:22 But Jesus replied, You do not realize what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink and to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized ? They answered, We are able.
Mat 20:23 He said to them, You will drink My cup, but seats at My right hand and at My left are not Mine to give, but they are for those for whom they have been ordained and prepared by My Father. (AMP)

Considering immersion or baptism, does it symbolize death, burial and resurrection? Consider:

Rom 6:3 Are you ignorant of the fact that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with Him by the baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious [power] of the Father, so we too might [habitually] live and behave in newness of life. (AMP)

The immersion being discussed here is an effective immersion, it actually effects a change, accomplishing something rather than symbolizing the accomplishment.

There is only one truely effective immersion/baptism. The baptism by the Spirit of the Holy One into the Body of Messiah.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as when you were called you were called to one hope.
Eph 4:5 And there is one Lord, one trust, one immersion,
Eph 4:6 and one God, the Father of all, who rules over all, works through all and is in all.

Must we be immersed to be saved? Knowing now the only truely effective immersion, one would emphatically say "YES !!"

- But not in water...otherwise Jesus couldn't have said to the thief on the cross next to Him "Today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Consider:

Mar 16:15 Then he said to them, "As you go throughout the world, proclaim the Good News to all creation.
Mar 16:16 Whoever trusts and is immersed will be saved; whoever does not trust will be condemned.

I think Jesus was speaking of Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Concerning water baptism, while repentance looks to the past, acknowledging our sin and it's consequences, faith and trust look to the present, recognizing the benefits of trusting God. In the same way, water baptism looks to the future - leaving sin behind, dropping the burden of the past and walking in the newness of life. It symbolizes a state of change.

When we come to God, recognizing our transgressions and repenting of our sin, and beginning our new lives, we put our trust in Him, We need to be able to put all our past behind us, trust God for our future, and leave the skeletons and baggage at the alter - it was atoned for! The waters of baptism is our 'line in the sand'. When crossed, left behind is the past, put away, never to return again.

As far as salvation, your trust in Christ has circumsized your heart.

The fruit of our trust is displayed by our obedience to Jesus (God) in all His commandments.

Just as Torah is not a path to salvation, neither is baptism. In this I do beleive faith without works is dead.

So perhaps we agree, but for different reasons?

Gift of God
Jul 8th 2008, 10:51 PM
Having formerly been a Oneness Pentecostal, I now believe that baptism is not necessary for salvation.

Romans 10:8-10 gives the way of salvation, and it even declares in that passage that "the righteousness of faith speaks on this wise: the word is nigh you, in your mouth and in your heart: (not: baptism is necessary for salvation) (but: ) that if you confess with yor mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Baptism is no where spoken of in this salvation formula.

losthorizon
Jul 9th 2008, 01:08 AM
Having formerly been a Oneness Pentecostal, I now believe that baptism is not necessary for salvation.

Romans 10:8-10 gives the way of salvation, and it even declares in that passage that "the righteousness of faith speaks on this wise: the word is nigh you, in your mouth and in your heart: (not: baptism is necessary for salvation) (but: ) that if you confess with yor mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Baptism is no where spoken of in this salvation formula.
Is the “formula” all-inclusive of the gospel of grace as recorded in the NT? Does the formula negate the commandment from Christ to be baptized in water (Mark 16:16)? What do you do with the many passages that require baptism as part of God's plan of redemption - ignore them? :hmm:

losthorizon
Jul 9th 2008, 01:17 AM
Just as Torah is not a path to salvation, neither is baptism. In this I do beleive faith without works is dead.

So perhaps we agree, but for different reasons

Do we agree that belief, repentance and baptism all precede “shall be saved” and “remission of sins”?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 (KJV)

Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:15-16 (KJV)

losthorizon
Jul 9th 2008, 01:27 AM
I will make this simple and understand that I know this as truth. Baptism is not a requirement for being saved, although the word 'saved' is also misunderstood in some respect.
Does your Bible read - "He that believes and is not baptized shall be saved"? Saved means saved - saved from the wrath of God through the blood of Christ and Jesus Christ in truth said "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved..." Saved from what - saved from eternal separation from the Eternal.

BrckBrln
Jul 9th 2008, 01:35 AM
Does your Bible read - "He that believes and is not baptized shall be saved"? Saved means saved - saved from the wrath of God through the blood of Christ and Jesus Christ in truth said "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved..." Saved from what - saved from eternal separation from the Eternal.

Is that all your Bible says? Because you seem to be missing the second half of the verse and all the other verses that say nothing about baptism being connected to salvation. :rolleyes:

losthorizon
Jul 9th 2008, 02:25 AM
Is that all your Bible says? Because you seem to be missing the second half of the verse and all the other verses that say nothing about baptism being connected to salvation. :rolleyes:
If you are insinuating that the second clause somehow negates the first clause's requirement for baptism then you are barking up the wrong tree, mate. Like all passages in the NT – Mark 16:16 is true as a whole – listen closely, please – according to Jesus Christ who designed and instituted baptism - the one who believes and is baptized (immersed in water) “shall be saved” – the one who refuses to believe whether baptized or not baptized "shall be damned". The NT does not know of an un-baptized believer. What would keep a man from obeying his Lord in baptism?
"...in the latter clause baptism is omitted, because it is not simply the want of baptism, but the contemptuous neglect of it, which makes men guilty of damnation..." ~ Matthew Henry

BrckBrln
Jul 9th 2008, 02:32 AM
What would keep a man from obeying his Lord in baptism?

Other men and even God. But you refuse to see this. :rolleyes:

losthorizon
Jul 9th 2008, 02:34 AM
Other men and even God. But you refuse to see this. :rolleyes:
Tell me more - how does God restrict your obedience to His command to be baptized?

BrckBrln
Jul 9th 2008, 02:52 AM
Tell me more - how does God restrict your obedience to His command to be baptized?

If God decides it's your time to die. This is the classic question you won't answer, or give a cop-out answer to. What of the person with his newly found faith in Jesus who crosses the street to go get baptized but gets hit by a car and dies? What of the person on their death bed who can't physically get baptized? What of the person who is jailed and they won't let him get baptized? What of the person who doesn't realize the importance of baptism and is ignorant of the command to get baptized?

losthorizon
Jul 9th 2008, 03:06 AM
If God decides it's your time to die. This is the classic question you won't answer, or give a cop-out answer to. What of the person with his newly found faith in Jesus who crosses the street to go get baptized but gets hit by a car and dies? What of the person on their death bed who can't physically get baptized? What of the person who is jailed and they won't let him get baptized? What of the person who doesn't realize the importance of baptism and is ignorant of the command to get baptized?
I do not make it a practice of speculating on what God will and will not do. To answer your question would be just that - speculating on God’s sovereignty. He alone knows the hearts of men. Do any of the choices above pertain to you or anyone reading this post? Doesn’t the NT show a merciful God who is l-o-n-g-suffering to us all - not willing that any shall parish. In every conversion recorded in the NT the believer was afforded more than enough time to obey the Lord in baptism before his soul was required in death. Why do you seek ways to not obey His command? Does God restrict your choice today - now?

BrckBrln
Jul 9th 2008, 03:13 AM
I do not make it a practice of speculating on what God will and will not do. To answer your question would be just that - speculating on God’s sovereignty. He alone knows the hearts of men. Do any of the choices above pertain to you or anyone reading this post? Doesn’t’ the NT show a merciful God who is l-o-n-g-suffering to us all - not willing that any shall parish. In every conversion recorded in the NT the believer was afforded more than enough time to obey the Lord in baptism before his soul was required in death. Why do you seek ways to not obey His command? Does God restrict your restrict your choice today?

Nice side step. :rolleyes:

And no, it would not be speculating. Salvation isn't a person by person basis, where if one person is on the verge of believing but still refuses for some reason, and then that person dies, he is going to hell. There is no 'almost Christian'. If you believe baptism is necessary for salvation then you are forced to believe that a person on their death bed is incapable of being saved even if he desperately wants to and even has faith in Christ.

And just because the NT doesn't have death bed conversions and people dying while they cross the street to be baptized, doesn't mean it doesn't or hasn't happened.

losthorizon
Jul 9th 2008, 03:37 AM
And no, it would not be speculating. Salvation isn't a person by person basis, where if one person is on the verge of believing but still refuses for some reason, and then that person dies, he is going to hell. There is no 'almost Christian'. If you believe baptism is necessary for salvation then you are forced to believe that a person on their death bed is incapable of being saved even if he desperately wants to and even has faith in Christ.


Speculation by any other name is still speculation, my friend and I do not engage in second-guessing God. You do what you must. I do know without any speculation that God requires baptism as an essential part of his plan to redeem man. You can refuse to obey that command if you must but you do so at your own risk.

BrckBrln
Jul 9th 2008, 03:41 AM
Speculation by any other name is still speculation, my friend and I do not engage in second-guessing God. You do what you must. I do know without any speculation that God requires baptism as an essential part of his plan to redeem man. You can refuse to obey that command if you must but you do so at your own risk.

One of the reasons I don't believe as you do is because you won't answer the simple questions. Salvation is not speculation, either you are saved or you aren't.

student of the Lamb
Jul 9th 2008, 03:42 AM
The NT does not know of an un-baptized believer.

What about the man on the cross beside Christ?

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in Paradise."

This man believed.

BrckBrln
Jul 9th 2008, 03:48 AM
What about the man on the cross beside Christ?

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in Paradise."

This man believed.


Oh, but don't you know? That was the Old Covenant, and we all know that the plan of salvation has changed. :rolleyes:

losthorizon
Jul 9th 2008, 03:50 AM
Salvation is not speculation, either you are saved or you aren't.
And only God - who alone knows the hearts of men - knows His own. Neither one of us can say who will or will not be saved in extraordinary situations. You might think you can but you can't. And logic tells us that an exception to a rule does not negate the rule - and the gospel of Christ states belief, repentance and baptism come before one "shall be saved".

losthorizon
Jul 9th 2008, 04:04 AM
What about the man on the cross beside Christ?

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in Paradise."

This man believed.

How do you know the thief was not baptized…the Baptizer baptized many people before his untimely death…"And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (LUKE 3:3)? But if you are using the thief on the cross as a way to negate the clear command to be baptized in water it will not work. The ordinance of Christian baptism "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" was not given to men by God until after the resurrection of Christ - ie - after the thief died.

genesisblu
Jul 9th 2008, 04:09 AM
How do you know the thief was not baptized…the Baptizer baptized many people before his untimely death…"And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (LUKE 3:3)?

So it is your first argument that he was more than likely baptized (prior to the command given after the resurrection as you state below) so he was good to go. Which is adding to the word and absurd.


But if you are using the thief on the cross as a way to negate the clear command to be baptized in water it will not work. The ordinance of Christian baptism "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" was not given to men by God until after the resurrection of Christ - ie - after the thief died.

And now you say but the command wasn't given until after resurrection so it didn't really matter anyway. What of all those poor soles who were baptized before the resurrection? Wrong baptism? You argue in circles.

Gift of God
Jul 9th 2008, 04:28 AM
In Romans 10, there is 'a word that is nigh thee, even in your mouth and in your heart', if indeed you have the righteousness of faith. This word is that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved. This is the word of faith which we preach (Romans 10:8).

The word of faith which we preach, then, or rather, the word of faith which you ought to preach, has nothing to do with baptism, otherwise Paul would have included baptism in the salvation formula of Romans 10.

As a side note, just in case you are a Oneness Pentecostal, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are not the same PERSON, and Hebrews 5:5 proves this.

losthorizon
Jul 9th 2008, 04:54 AM
So it is your first argument that he was more than likely baptized (prior to the command given after the resurrection as you state below) so he was good to go. Which is adding to the word and absurd.

My point is we do not know if he was baptized or not - Holy Writ is silent on the matter. Are you saying it would have been impossible that he could have been baptized by John? Is that really absurd as you suggest?


And now you say but the command wasn't given until after resurrection so it didn't really matter anyway. What of all those poor soles who were baptized before the resurrection? Wrong baptism? You argue in circles.
No circles - the commision by Christ to baptize in the name of God was given AFTER the resurrection was it not or are you still confused? We do have a record of those baptized by John's baptism being re-baptized with Christian baptism "in the name of the Lord Jesus" -
Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:3-5 (KJV)

losthorizon
Jul 9th 2008, 05:02 AM
As a side note, just in case you are a Oneness Pentecostal, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are not the same PERSON, and Hebrews 5:5 proves this.
I am not a “Oneness” and I am not a Calvinist - I am simply a disciple of the Christ - a Christian…"and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch." But thanks for the reference to Heb 5 - good verse. :)

genesisblu
Jul 9th 2008, 05:57 AM
My point is we do not know if he was baptized or not - Holy Writ is silent on the matter. Are you saying it would have been impossible that he could have been baptized by John? Is that really absurd as you suggest?

Funny way of making a point that you are unsure by assuming he was. And I said adding was absurd.


No circles - the commision by Christ to baptize in the name of God was given AFTER the resurrection was it not or are you still confused? We do have a record of those baptized by John's baptism being re-baptized with Christian baptism "in the name of the Lord Jesus" -
Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:3-5 (KJV)
What? So everyone was re-baptized is that what you are saying now? None of this even makes sense.

losthorizon
Jul 9th 2008, 11:18 AM
Funny way of making a point that you are unsure by assuming he was. And I said adding was absurd.

You didn't answer my question - are you saying it would have been impossible that he could have been baptized by John? Do you not have an answer?


What? So everyone was re-baptized is that what you are saying now? None of this even makes sense.
It makes no sense becuase you can't read what is printed. I said we do have a record of those baptized by John's baptism being re-baptized with Christian baptism "in the name of the Lord Jesus". Do you read anything in that statement that states "everyone was re-baptized"? ;)

genesisblu
Jul 9th 2008, 04:04 PM
You didn't answer my question - are you saying it would have been impossible that he could have been baptized by John? Do you not have an answer?

Of course it isn't impossible. That isn't the point. Because that isn't what the scripture says is it?


It makes no sense becuase you can't read what is printed. I said we do have a record of those baptized by John's baptism being re-baptized with Christian baptism "in the name of the Lord Jesus". Do you read anything in that statement that states "everyone was re-baptized"? ;)

I can read fine. The scripture reads just fine it's your interpretation that makes no sense. What do you mean they were "re-baptized" with "Christian baptism"? And why do you suppose John's baptism didn't "work"?

keck553
Jul 9th 2008, 04:29 PM
Do we agree that belief, repentance and baptism all precede “shall be saved” and “remission of sins”?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 (KJV)

Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:15-16 (KJV)


I can't subscribe to baptism preceeds salvation. Both Yochanan and Yeshua said "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is near," not "Repent and be immersed in a Mikvah." That context wouldn't make sense to a Jew. They knew what Mikvah's were for, their pupose was in the Word of God written on thier Torah scrolls. God saved the Hebrews and brought them out of Egypt before their baptism through the reed sea. God saved the thief on the cross. If the thief had already been baptised, he would have had assurance of his salvation. But he didn't. Jesus Himself wasn't 'saved' when Yochanan immersed Him?? That doesn't make sense. Jesus wasn't 'saved' until He was 30 years old, yet He was teaching in the Synagogues at 14? Certainly Jesus went into many Mikvahs as much as any devout Jew did for many reasons.

Immersion in the mikvah offered a gateway to purity ever since the creation of man.
Before the revelation at Sinai, among other things, all Jews were commanded to immerse themselves in preparation for coming face to face with God..

In the desert, the famed "well of Miriam" served as a mikvah. And Aaron and his sons' induction into the priesthood was marked by immersion in the mikvah.

None of these things gave them salvation. Their faith alone (see Abraham) brought them salvation by and only by the grace of God.

In Temple times, the priests as well as each Jew who wished entry into the House of God had first to immerse in a mikvah.

On Yom Kippur, the holiest of all days, the High Priest was allowed entrance into the Holy of Holies, the innermost chamber of the Temple, into which no other mortal could enter. This was the zenith of a day that involved an ascending order of services, each of which was preceded by immersion in the mikvah.

Jesus came to Yochanan as He was to begin His ministry as High Priest, annointed by the Father, then the Spirit descened upon Him like a dove.
Was the immersion symbolic of God annointing Jesus as High Priest and entering the tent of meeting?
Jesus fulfilled Torah requirements before He went into the tent of meeting, by immersion in the Mikvah, by Yochanan, The immersion fulfilled all righteousness as demanded in Leviticus for the High Priest. I haven't finished this study, because it was Yochanan (aka Eliyahu) for a reason.

The point I'm trying to make is that salvation has always preceeded baptism. Jesus is our Passover Lamb. If the sacrifice of a passover lamb (assuming it's acceptable to God) alone at temple is sufficient for atonement, how much more is Yeshua's sacrifice alone sufficient for atonement and remission of sin? Nothing needs to be added. To say we have to obey a commandment to obtain salvation is against all teachings in the whole bible (not just the last chapters). God alone saves, by Grace - through our faith and trust in Him - then He sets us apart for His use by our obedience to His commands, hopefully out of our hearts in loving relationship. We become living sacrifices.

You have to ask yourself, what is God's purpose with us fallen humans? I believe His purpose is to bring us all back to the Gan-Eden relationship and fellowship with us.

Does everyone here agree that Jesus IS God? Not a replacement? There is no separation. Eloheim was, He is and He is to come. God does not change.

Ecc 1:9 That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun.

losthorizon
Jul 9th 2008, 10:14 PM
Of course it isn't impossible. That isn't the point. Because that isn't what the scripture says is it?


But the point is this - Holy Writ does not say one way or the other does it? Whether the thief was baptized or not baptized we are not told but we do both agree he could easily have been baptized by John - it is possible. Of course it is a moot point - the baptism that believers today are to submit to is the baptism of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38) - the baptism “in the name of the Lord Jesus” and that baptism was not given as a command from the Lord until well after the thief died - ie- the ordinance of Christian baptism was not instituted by Christ until after His resurrection. Therefore, for anyone to use the thief as an excuse not to obey the Lord by being immersed in water is a non-excuse.

keck553
Jul 9th 2008, 10:32 PM
A good point, however God's salvation has always come through faith and God doesn't change and add another condition for His gift of Grace. That would make God inconsistant, and God is not inconsistant. We are. If the blood of our Messiah isn't sufficient, nothing is.

God never said to the Hebrews to obeserve Torah and they would be saved. They were already saved.

Baptism in water, like obedience to God's Torah is the evidence of salvation, not a gateway to salvation.

losthorizon
Jul 9th 2008, 11:02 PM
A good point, however God's salvation has always come through faith and God doesn't change and add another condition for His gift of Grace. That would make God inconsistant, and God is not inconsistant. We are. If the blood of our Messiah isn't sufficient, nothing is.


The act of obedience to the Lord in baptism in no way diminishes from the saving power of His blood - baptism simply points the believer to His death, burial and resurrection as the believer is "baptized into His death" (Rom 6:3-5). How do you maneuver around the clear teaching of the NT that salvation is preceded by both faith and baptism, according to the God-inspired grammar of Mark 16:16...
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” (Mark 16:16)

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary

genesisblu
Jul 10th 2008, 12:29 AM
The act of obedience to the Lord in baptism in no way diminishes from the saving power of His blood - baptism simply points the believer to His death, burial and resurrection as the believer is "baptized into His death" (Rom 6:3-5). How do you maneuver around the clear teaching of the NT that salvation is preceded by both faith and baptism, according to the God-inspired grammar of Mark 16:16...
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” (Mark 16:16)

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary

No the gospel points to His death, burial and resurrection. That is the gospel. Would you please provide the scripture that says baptism is the fruit of faith?
Luke 5:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=5&verse=20&version=50&context=verse)
When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.”
Why were the sins forgiven? Faith or baptism?
Luke 7:50 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=7&verse=50&version=50&context=verse)
Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”
What saved her? faith or baptism?
Acts 14:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=14&verse=27&version=50&context=verse)
Now when they had come and gathered the church together, they reported all that God had done with them, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.
Opened the door to what? faith or baptism?
Acts 15:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=15&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Purifying their hearts by what? faith or baptism?
Romans 1:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=1&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
[ The Just Live by Faith ] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
For everyone who what? believes or is baptized?
Romans 3:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=22&version=50&context=verse)
even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
To all and on all who what? believe or is baptized?
Romans 3:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=26&version=50&context=verse)
to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
His a justifier of the one who has what? faith or is baptized?
Romans 3:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=30&version=50&context=verse)
since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
They are justified by and through what? faith or baptism?
Romans 4:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=4&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
He who what? believes or is baptized? What is accounted for righteousness? Faith or baptism?
Romans 4:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=4&verse=11&version=50&context=verse)
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,
He received what while he was still what? The father of all those who what? believe or are baptized?
Romans 5:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=5&verse=2&version=50&context=verse)
through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Access by what? faith or baptism?

1 Corinthians 15:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
1 Corinthians 15:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)
And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
1 Corinthians 15:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=17&version=50&context=verse)
And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

But wait how can that be they were baptized.

Galatians 2:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=2&verse=16&version=50&context=verse)
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Do what that they might be justified? believe or be baptized?

Galatians 3:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=2&version=50&context=verse)
This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
How did they receive the Spirit? by hearing or baptism?

Galatians 3:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=8&version=50&context=verse)
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
By what? faith or baptism?

Galatians 3:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)
that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Receive the promise of the Spirit through what? faith or baptism?

Galatians 3:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=22&version=50&context=verse)
But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Given to who? those who believe or baptized?

Ephesians 3:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=3&verse=12&version=50&context=verse)
in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.
Boldness and access through what? faith or baptism?

Ephesians 3:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=3&verse=17&version=50&context=verse)
that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
Dwell in our hearts through what? faith or baptism?

Acts 3:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=3&verse=19&version=50&context=verse)
Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

Acts 15:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=15&verse=7&version=50&context=verse)
And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

And believe only? Why did he leave out and be baptized?
8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Knew them by what? Their hearts not their baptism? And acknowledge by giving them the Holy Spirit? Just as He did to them!?

1 Corinthians 15:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures

What no baptism?

1 Corinthians 1:14-17
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Awfully odd for one to be happy he did not issue the very baptism that would cause someone salvation when salvation was what he was to bring to people! Or to be stating that he was not sent to deliver the very thing that would save someone...so Paul says he only offered half of the saving formula?! He was glad he disobeyed the commandment of the Great Commission???

losthorizon
Jul 10th 2008, 01:25 AM
Would you please provide the scripture that says baptism is the fruit of faith?


Sure - among other scriptures – Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38 – the fruit of faith includes but is not limited to belief, repentance and baptism. What is your definition of the "fruit of faith"?


1 Corinthians 1:14-17
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Awfully odd for one to be happy he did not issue the very baptism that would cause someone salvation when salvation was what he was to bring to people! Or to be stating that he was not sent to deliver the very thing that would save someone...so Paul says he only offered half of the saving formula?!
LOL – I was waiting for this red herring to come up in this thread and I suspected you would be the one to introduce it. Let’s get a few basic biblical facts straight –
(1) Paul – the chief of sinners – was himself immersed in water in obedience to the Lord’s instructions (Acts 22). The Lord told Paul, “Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.” And what was appointed for Paul to do to be saved from his sins? The Lord’s disciple – “one Ananias, a devout man according to the law” commanded Paul to…”arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” Paul obeyed his Lord in baptism and it was at the point of immersion in water that his sins were “washed away” by the blood of Christ – just as our sins are washed away when we too are baptized upon confession of our faith in a risen Savior.

(2) Paul did baptize some – ie – at Corinth alone he baptized both Crispus and Gaius. He was not opposed to baptizing but that was not his primary duty – his main calling was to “preach the gospel” – the same gospel that includes the ordinance of baptism in water.

(3) Paul was hesitant to baptize in Corinth because some of the Corinthians claimed to be “of his party” – some might accuse him of baptizing in the name of Paul. He did not wish to divide the Lord’s church as they were doing in that city. He was not oppses to baptizing at all – his fellow servants in the faith did the baptizing for all who believed…"The Corinthians hearing, believed and were baptized" (Act_18:8).To float the fact that Paul didn’t baptize as an excuse to reject the truth of that ordinance is yet another fallacious smokescreen just like the "thief on the cross" bait and switch…
1Co 1:14-16 Here the apostle gives an account of his ministry among them. He thanks God he had baptized but a few among them, Crispus, who had been a ruler of a synagogue at Corinth (Act_18:8), Gaius, and the household of Stephanas, besides whom, he says, he did not remember that he had baptized any. But how was this a proper matter for thankfulness? Was it not a part of the apostolical commission to baptize all nations? And could Paul give thanks to God for his own neglect of duty? He is not to be understood in such a sense as if he were thankful for not having baptized at all, but for not having done it in present circumstances, lest it should have had this very bad construction put upon it - that he had baptized in his own name, made disciples for himself, or set himself up as the head of a sect. He left it to other ministers to baptize, while he set himself to more useful work, and filled up his time with preaching the gospel. This, he thought, was more his business, because the more important business of the two. He had assistants that could baptize, when none could discharge the other part of his office so well as himself. In this sense he says, Christ sent him not to baptize, but to preach the gospel - not so much to baptize as to preach. ~ Matthew Henry

Trailblazer
Jul 10th 2008, 01:56 AM
What Is Baptism?

Is baptism required for salvation?


http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/images/beautiful_waterfall.jpgIsn't the water in the photo to the left beautiful? As lovely as it is, it's just water my friend...it cannot save you.
In the Old Testament period, baptism was a ritual of conversion to Judaism. Pagans would become proselytes through this ritual by self-baptizing themselves to become part of the Jewish people. So it was an Identification with the people of God.
"In the name of Jesus" distinguishes the Christian baptism from all others at that time. This is not referring to the formula said over a person, but indicated a confession in Christ which was made publicly. To be baptized in Jesus' name was the command to the hearers of the Gospel. Does this contradict Matt. 28:19 of being baptized in the Trinitarian formula? No, Jesus is the sole representative of the triune God in bodily form. We are told there is no other name by which one is to be saved. He alone is the fullness of the Godhead (bodily.)
His name was used to represent the Godhead to the hearers of the Gospel, distinguishing it from the other baptisms of their day. Church history and tradition shows the Trinitarian form, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, was the method of baptism (MT.28). There are two major ordinances in the New Testament, baptism and the Lord's supper. In the Old Testament, the major ordinances were circumcision and the Passover. The Passover was changed to the Lord's supper and points back to the death of Christ and His future return. It is a memorial which we take until He comes, identifying with His death and second coming. While the Old Testament circumcision was of the flesh, the New Testament circumcision is of the heart, an internal renewal by the Spirit, a cutting away of the sins of the flesh. (Col. 2:11,13 ; Phil. 3:3). Mistakes are made when one uses an ordinance which is a symbol and makes it an actual occurrence of grace. People misplace faith in the ordinances to get what they symbolize. Take, for example, the Catholic view of the Lord's supper as being able to impart grace; the same as with baptism. In the third century, believers started to baptize their children before any confession of faith. They related this to the rite of circumcision, which was applied to sons at eight days old, so similarly, baptism was applied to children. Yet it is by faith and God's grace one is saved. No work of man or any kind of Biblical ritual can impart grace. Salvation is neither a creed, a doctrine, nor ordinance. It is found only in a person - Jesus Christ and His work on the cross, and that was done for us.
Almost every covenant had a sign or token along with it. For Noah, it was the rainbow; for Abraham, it was circumcision; for Moses, it was the Sabbath; and for the new covenant of grace, it is baptism by water. None of these were the covenant itself but a token of one's entry into a covenant with God. All were visible means for the participants in it. Baptism is to identify with a person, a group of people, or the message. As Christians this has been practiced as an ordinance. It is a symbol and witness of the change of ownership that has taken place for us. We identify with the Lord Jesus, His message, and the body of believers. It is a symbol of my old life being dead (I was crucified and buried with Christ and raised up to newness of life). This new life takes place at the cross by His death and resurrection, not when I'm immersed in water. Those who heard John's and Jesus' message and believed, were obedient to be baptized in water as the visible sign of their repentance. It is a symbol, not the substance.
Some References of Baptism and Faith used in the New Testament Books:

Book of the Bible
Water Baptism Faith Mentioned Mark 6 19 John 1 95 Acts 9 53 Romans 1 35 1 Corinthians 1 (good), 5(negative) 17 Galatians 1 22 Ephesians 0 10 Philippians 0 6 Colossians 1 5 Hebrews 0 43 1 John 0 6

This is by no means an exhaustive comparison, yet, this shows the overall usage of both baptism and faith. The Bible teaches that by God's grace; through faith the means, salvation is given. Over 240 times, faith (belief) is the only required condition for salvation. The book of John which teaches who Jesus is and how one can be saved mentions salvation by belief (faith) 95 times. The basic Biblical principle of interpretation (hermeneutics) is that we don't ever interpret the major portion of Scripture by the lesser. A natural example: The branches of a tree never interpret the trunk. The trunk is what upholds the branches. It is the main strength that gives life to those that extend out from it. If we look at the book of Acts which shows the practices of early Christianity we find some very revealing facts...

Instances where baptism is mentioned in the book of Acts: Acts 2:37-41; 8:5-13; 8:37, 38; 9:1-18, 22; 10:43,48; 16:14, 30-34; 18:8; and 19:5 (a total of 9 times, which are always attached to faith)

Instances where baptism is not mentioned: Acts 2:47; 4:4; 5:14; 6:7; 9:35, 42; 11:21, 24; 12:24; l3:12, 43, 48; 14:1, 7,22,27; 16:5; 17:4, 12, 34; 19:17-20; 26:18 28:23, 24 (a total of 22 times there are conversions with faith and no hint of baptism)
This does not mean they disposed of the rite of baptism. What it does indicate is that salvation is found outside the practice of baptism. Nowhere does it say "to be baptized to be saved" by itself. However you will find faith separate from baptism for salvation. The greater context in scripture always teaches salvation occurs before baptism. No one followed Jesus to be saved, nor were they baptized to be saved. If they were pronounced saved by their faith before baptism then baptism is clearly not part of the gospel.
Christ offered himself as salvation to the people. Mary when found with the child said she rejoiced in "God my Saviour" (Luke 1:47). Simeon likewise in Luke 2:29-30 said as he held the baby Jesus, "Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation." Salvation is never referred to as a "rite" or an "ordinance" -salvation is a Person. This is what makes Christianity different from religion, it is not by works.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/Doctrines/what_is_baptism.htm (http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer%27s%20Corner/Doctrines/what_is_baptism.htm)


Hello? :rolleyes:

Let me ask a question to Losthorizon.....would getting Baptized be considered a work...possibly a work of obedience, but none the less, a WORK?

I think you need to read Ephesians 2: 8-9 again, seems you have been duped with the old works based Salvation. LOL, you are actually telling us that there is something WE can do for our Salvation...Baptism...guess what, forget it...not by works, lest any man should boast.

losthorizon
Jul 10th 2008, 03:37 AM
Hello? :rolleyes:

Let me ask a question to Losthorizon.....would getting Baptized be considered a work...possibly a work of obedience, but none the less, a WORK?


Well TB - let me answer your question with my question and you will have the answer to your question. This is a trick question, btw. Is belief a work - ie - is belief itself a "work of God"…
“Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God: to believe in the one whom he has sent." Whatever belief is to salvation so too is baptism per Jesus Christ…”He that believes and is baptized shall be saved…”
For to be baptized in the name of God is to be baptized not by men, but by God Himself. Therefore although it is performed by human hands, it is nevertheless truly God's own work. From this fact every one may himself readily infer that it is a far higher work than any work performed by a man or a saint. For what work greater than the work of God can we do? ~ Martin LutherWhat do you say TB - what greater work than the work of God can YOU do? Have you been immersed in water per the command of the Christ?

I think you need to read Ephesians 2: 8-9 again, seems you have been duped with the old works based Salvation. LOL, you are actually telling us that there is something WE can do for our Salvation...Baptism...guess what, forget it...not by works, lest any man should boast.
Or are you the one being duped mate - I think yes. You say we can DO nothing to be saved but Holy Writ is not on your side - unfortunately for you. Those 3000 penitent believers on the day of Pentecost asked the most important question we can ask – "What shall we DO to be saved?" Peter didn’t say what you are saying in your current state of confusion – "there is nothing WE can DO." No, Peter proclaimed the full gospel of Christ…those who BELIEVED must REPENT and be BAPTIZED and then their sins would be remitted and they would receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (they must DO something). Those sinners believed – they repented – they were baptized. The three requirements were not optional and it can’t be any plainer – “then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.” So you see you are quite mistaken - there is much we must DO…but it was a nice try on your part. ;)
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:37-38 (KJV)If I do the “work of God” and “believe in the one whom he has sent” (the Christ) can I boast in my own works per Ephesians 2:8-9. Do you believe in the one whom he has sent? If yes, is your belief a work?

BrckBrln
Jul 10th 2008, 04:01 AM
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

1. The person that believes and is baptized will be saved.

2. The person that does not believe will not be saved.

3. The person that believes and is not baptized ends up in Purgatory.

:rolleyes: ;)

losthorizon
Jul 10th 2008, 11:30 AM
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

1. The person that believes and is baptized will be saved.

2. The person that does not believe will not be saved.

3. The person that believes and is not baptized ends up in Purgatory.

:rolleyes: ;)
The question that goes begging is this - why would any person who believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God refuse to obey the Lord's command to be baptized - it makes no sense...
"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him." (Acts 8:36-38)

BrckBrln
Jul 10th 2008, 02:37 PM
The question that goes begging is this - why would any person who believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God refuse to obey the Lord's command to be baptized - it makes no sense...
"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him." (Acts 8:36-38)

Haven't we been over this before? What if they physically can't do it? And where would you put the guy who does believe but isn't baptized? Heaven or Hell? If you say hell (which you probably won't as it's all just 'speculation' right? :rolleyes: ) then that pretty much goes against what the second half of the verse says, so you would have to give me other verses in the Bible to validate that claim. So it seems we are forced to put him in heaven, and we can get numerous verses to back that claim up.

Trailblazer
Jul 10th 2008, 03:37 PM
The question that goes begging is this - why would any person who believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God refuse to obey the Lord's command to be baptized

That's not the point friend, you seem to think that Baptism will save us...absolutely false and if you're going to use Scripture make sure you FINISH the verse, don't stop at your convenience.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

Now, does it say he who does not get baptized shall not be Saved?

No, sorry friend, it does NOT say that...plus you're forgetting ALL the verses that talk about FAITH without a glimpse of Baptism being talked about.

The thief on the cross in one example or how about this little story...

Luke 7:
7:1 Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum.

7:2 And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die.

7:3 And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.

7:4 And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this:

7:5 For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.

7:6 Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof:

7:7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.

7:8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

7:10 And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.

Hmm, don't see anything about Baptism in this verse either.

And BTW, faith is not a work because it is God who does the Saving, not man. It is HIM who pricks the heart.

By GRACE are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves...it is a GIFT from God, not of WORKS...lest any man should boast.

Edit* Having said this...should we get baptized and partake of the Lord's supper? Of course we should, but in no way will these two ordinances by the Lord save us, there is absolutely NOTHING we can do for our Salvation, God has done it all...may the GLORY and PRAISE go to Him, right where it should be.

Have a super day, friend. ;)

keck553
Jul 10th 2008, 04:49 PM
The act of obedience to the Lord in baptism in no way diminishes from the saving power of His blood - baptism simply points the believer to His death, burial and resurrection as the believer is "baptized into His death" (Rom 6:3-5). How do you maneuver around the clear teaching of the NT that salvation is preceded by both faith and baptism, according to the God-inspired grammar of Mark 16:16...

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” (Mark 16:16)

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary


I agree that acts of obedience are evidence of salvation, and that obedience, including Torah observance in no way diminishes the saving power of His blood. But they are not a condition. The bible speaks to the status of one who has continued unrepentant disobedience to God's commands. We are not the judge to anyone's salvation, we are not spiritually soverign oveer anyone - that's only for God. All we see is the evidence of one's salvation, and that is progressive, not instantaneous. Sanctification is the fruit of salvation, not a requirement for salvation.

Also, as I noted in the many posts previous, baptism isn't exclusive to water immersion.

losthorizon
Jul 10th 2008, 10:14 PM
Haven't we been over this before? What if they physically can't do it?
Are you "physically" able to be baptized? Yeah - I remember you - you’re the “what if” guy who chooses to speculate on what God must do and must not do as you dream up scenarios in a vain attempt to remove your obligation to be immersed in water. As I have told you before I don’t speculate on the “secret things” that belong to the Lord who alone knows the hearts and minds of men - I choose to understand what is revealed in the Book and leave the speculating to those who are turned that way.
"The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law." Deuteronomy 29:29 And I know from the Book that the ordinance of baptism is designed and commanded by God for a specific purpose - “the answer of a good conscience toward God” that puts the believer “into Christ”…“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ” (Gal 3:27). Baptism is not an option for speculators.

Here is a “what if” question for you - what if a person who has known for years that Christ ordained and commanded immersion in water refuses to be baptized and dies tragically and unexpectedly - what will that person say to God when he sees Him face to face and He asks "why did you not obey my simple command?" - what excuse would you offer? Why do you think Paul obeyed the Lord’s command to be baptized in water where his sins were “washed away” by the blood of Christ? Do you think his sins would have been forgiven if had rejected the Lord’s command?
“Saul, Saul, why persecuteth thou me...arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 22).

BrckBrln
Jul 10th 2008, 10:30 PM
Are you "physically" able to be baptized? Yeah - I remember you - you’re the “what if” guy who chooses to speculate on what God must do and must not do as you dream up scenarios in a vain attempt to remove your obligation to be immersed in water. As I have told you before I don’t speculate on the “secret things” that belong to the Lord who alone knows the hearts and minds of men - I choose to understand what is revealed in the Book and leave the speculating to those who are turned that way.
"The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law." Deuteronomy 29:29 And I know from the Book that the ordinance of baptism is designed and commanded by God for a specific purpose - “the answer of a good conscience toward God” that puts the believer “into Christ”…“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ” (Gal 3:27). Baptism is not an option for speculators.

Here is a “what if” question for you - what if a person who has known for years that Christ ordained and commanded immersion in water refuses to be baptized and dies tragically and unexpectedly - what will that person say to God when he sees Him face to face and He asks "why did you not obey my simple command?" - what excuse would you offer? Why do you think Paul obeyed the Lord’s command to be baptized in water where his sins were “washed away” by the blood of Christ? Do you think his sins would have been forgiven if had rejected the Lord’s command?
“Saul, Saul, why persecuteth thou me...arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 22).

Salvation isn't a 'secret thing' of the Lord. I find it pitiful that you have to turn everything around and side step simple questions. How can you expect us to believe as you do when you won't answer critical questions that seem to be holes in your theology? And for all you know I have been baptized, so since you don't like to 'speculate' maybe you shouldn't do so on my being baptized.

losthorizon
Jul 11th 2008, 01:10 AM
Salvation isn't a 'secret thing' of the Lord.


No it is not and of course no one is saying salvation is a secret thing are they? The truth is salvation through the blood of Christ is the greatest of the things revealed “to us and to our sons forever”. And the gospel of Christ contains the revelation from God to man on how we are to obey that form of doctrine so that salvation can be ours and that gospel message contains the command to believe - repent - and be baptized in water for the remission of sins. All three acts are acts of obedience - from the heart. This is not rocket science…“God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you” Romans 6:17.


I find it pitiful that you have to turn everything around and side step simple questions. How can you expect us to believe as you do when you won't answer critical questions that seem to be holes in your theology?
I am sorry you find anything “pitiful” but your speculative inquiry is not a “simple question” as you suggest. Holy Writ does not address “hardship conversions” or “deathbed conversions”. Why? Becuase all of the conversions recorded in the NT reveal a loving God who allows those who call upon His name the time needed to be baptized and ALL believers were baptized - baptized immediately upon belief and confession that He is the Christ - the Son of God. They didn’t wait until next quarter or even next week - there was an urgency…“And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord…”

How God deals with individuals under extreme circumstances falls under the “secret things” not revealed and He judges such cases on an individual bases. However, we do know He is a merciful and just God, therefore I do not lose sleep over anyone who truly plans on being baptized but “dies on the way to the baptistery”. But as logic so clearly teaches us - any exception to any rule does not negate the rule and the rule says we must believe and be baptized and then we "shall be saved".


And for all you know I have been baptized, so since you don't like to 'speculate' maybe you shouldn't do so on my being baptized.
Whether you are baptized or un-baptized is between you and the Lord and I am not speculating - you are the one who publicly posted not many moons ago on this very board that you had not obeyed your Lord in baptism. You did however suggest you would shortly do so and if you did then I praise God. :)

BrckBrln
Jul 11th 2008, 01:32 AM
How God deals with individuals under extreme circumstances falls under the “secret things” not revealed and He judges such cases on an individual bases. However, we do know He is a merciful and just God, therefore I do not lose sleep over anyone who truly plans on being baptized but “dies on the way to the baptistery”. But as logic so clearly teaches us - any exception to any rule does not negate the rule and the rule says we must believe and be baptized and then we "shall be saved".

There are no exceptions to salvation. Like I said, either you are saved or you aren't. And by your definition of being saved, all the people who die without being baptized, even those who are physically unable, or the ones who die on their way to get baptized, will go to hell. It's as simple as that. It's not a secret thing of the Lord. It's just that you are too afraid, I guess, to answer with your answer that they go to hell. Probably because it's so blatantly wrong and can't be validated by the rest of the Bible.

losthorizon
Jul 11th 2008, 02:08 AM
There are no exceptions to salvation. Like I said, either you are saved or you aren't. And by your definition of being saved, all the people who die without being baptized, even those who are physically unable, or the ones who die on their way to get baptized, will go to hell. It's as simple as that. It's not a secret thing of the Lord. It's just that you are too afraid, I guess, to answer with your answer that they go to hell. Probably because it's so blatantly wrong and can't be validated by the rest of the Bible.

You appear to be a wee bit agitated, mate so there is no need to beat a dead horse here. If you have scriptural support for exactly what happens with “deathbed conversions” then present it. If you have scriptural support that shows one dropping dead on the way to the baptistery and what his eternal destiny might be then present it also. As for me - I will trust what I know - the revelation of the Eternal and it says that without faith it is impossible to please God; the words of Jesus specifically state that if one refuses to repent he/she will “parish”; and the Lord Himself in the Great Commission to all believers until He comes again presents the straightforward simple command printed in black and white - “he who believes and is baptized shall be saved”. You trust your “speculation” and what you “think” will take place but I will trust in God’s revealed word - it is the gold standard by which we will all be judged. Amen. :)

BrckBrln
Jul 11th 2008, 02:21 AM
You appear to be a wee bit agitated, mate so there is no need to beat a dead horse here. If you have scriptural support for exactly what happens with “deathbed conversions” then present it. If you have scriptural support that shows one dropping dead on the way to the baptistery and what his eternal destiny might be then present it also. As for me - I will trust what I know - the revelation of the Eternal and it says that without faith it is impossible to please God; the words of Jesus specifically state that if one refuses to repent he/she will “parish”; and the Lord Himself in the Great Commission to all believers until He comes again presents the straightforward simple command printed in black and white - “he who believes and is baptized shall be saved”. You trust your “speculation” and what you “think” will take place but I will trust in God’s revealed word - it is the gold standard by which we will all be judged. Amen. :)

I'm agitated because you won't answer critical questions regarding your theology, so how can you expect anybody to believe you? And the NT doesn't contain every situation known to man, so it's a terribly weak argument to say you can't answer a question simply because it isn't addressed in the Bible.

losthorizon
Jul 11th 2008, 02:52 AM
That's not the point friend, you seem to think that Baptism will save us...absolutely false and if you're going to use Scripture make sure you FINISH the verse, don't stop at your convenience.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

Now, does it say he who does not get baptized shall not be Saved?

No, sorry friend, it does NOT say that...plus you're forgetting ALL the verses that talk about FAITH without a glimpse of Baptism being talked about.


I think I have said it enough on this thread but for the sake of clarification I will repeat it one more time - it is the blood of Christ that finally and completely saves the souls of men. Baptism is simply an ordinance of the church designed and commanded by the Lord to be the answer of a good conscious toward God as it points to the resurrection of Christ.
..."eight souls were saved by water"... The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3)Peter refers to the water of the flood that separated Noah from the wicked world and he says it is a picture of Christian baptism – “the answer of a good conscience to God” – where the baptismal water separates the believer from the non-believer as the believer “calls on the name of the Lord” as he is immersed in water - immersed “into Christ Jesus” – this is not a hard concept (IMO).

As for the complete passage of Mark 16:16 it simply states this biblical truth - the one who "believes and is baptized shall be saved" and one who does not believe whether baptized or not baptized "shall be damned". It appears to be straightforward to me but if you do not yet understand let me know TB and I will be happy to go back over it again just for you. Surely you do not think the latter clause of that passage negates the need for baptism - do you? :)

"...in the latter clause baptism is omitted, because it is not simply the want of baptism, but the contemptuous neglect of it, which makes men guilty of damnation..." ~ Matthew Henry on Mark 16:16

losthorizon
Jul 11th 2008, 02:59 AM
I'm agitated because you won't answer critical questions regarding your theology, so how can you expect anybody to believe you? And the NT doesn't contain every situation known to man, so it's a terribly weak argument to say you can't answer a question simply because it isn't addressed in the Bible.
Can I then take the above response as your admission that you have no scriptural support for you speculations - I thought as much. Btw - I am not here to agitate you I am here to present what the Book says - it is silent on “deathbed confessions”. God bless.

BrckBrln
Jul 11th 2008, 03:04 AM
Can I then take the above response as your admission that you have no scriptural support for you speculations - I thought as much. Btw - I am not here to agitate you I am here to present what the Book says - it is silent on “deathbed confessions”. God bless.

What speculations am I making?

And yeah, I guess the Bible doesn't have any deathbed confessions but does that mean it doesn't happen? The Bible is a big book but it isn't so big that it has every situation known to man in it.

losthorizon
Jul 11th 2008, 03:15 AM
I agree that acts of obedience are evidence of salvation, and that obedience, including Torah observance in no way diminishes the saving power of His blood. But they are not a condition.



Are you suggesting there is not a “doctrine delivered” to man by God that must be obeyed from the heart in order for man to be made free from sin?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Romans 6:17-18 (KJV)


Also, as I noted in the many posts previous, baptism isn't exclusive to water immersion.
No one is denying the NT discusses more than one baptism but the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4:5 - “One Lord, one faith, one baptism” is the baptism under discussion on this thread and that one baptism is the baptism administered by the hands of men – the baptism of the Great commission – immersion in water.

(Off topic but “Torah observance" is part of the shadows of Judaism and Christians are warned not to go back under such shadows as justification before God.)

losthorizon
Jul 11th 2008, 03:21 AM
What speculations am I making?

Deathbed - being hit by a car on the way to the baptistery, etc, etc...


And yeah, I guess the Bible doesn't have any deathbed confessions but does that mean it doesn't happen?
I am not in doubt that it happens but the Bible does not have an example of such an event that I am aware of. As stated earlier God know the hearts of men - He is a righteous Judge. The point being - deathbed conversions in no way negate the clear command to be baptized.

BrckBrln
Jul 11th 2008, 03:25 AM
Deathbed - being hit by a car on the way to the baptistery, etc, etc...

These aren't speculations as they really happen. I don't have any documented proof but even you agree they do happen.



I am not in doubt that it happens but the Bible does not have an example of such an event that I am aware of. As stated earlier God know the hearts of men - He is a righteous Judge.

So just because the Bible doesn't have a direct answer to a certain situation, that means that we can't know what happens to these people when they die? Salvation isn't flexible, my friend. If I held to your theology, I would be forced to believe that the person that dies on his way to get baptized goes to hell, since I believe that that baptism is the only thing that could have saved him.

Now, I don't hold to that theology but surely you see my point?

losthorizon
Jul 11th 2008, 04:08 AM
These aren't speculations as they really happen. I don't have any documented proof but even you agree they do happen.


The speculation is not that such events can happen - the speculation is what judgment God would render to one who died on the way to the baptistery, etc. He doesn't answer those matters for us in the Bible as you have admitted.


So just because the Bible doesn't have a direct answer to a certain situation, that means that we can't know what happens to these people when they die? Salvation isn't flexible, my friend.
Then you place God into an awfully small box, partner. He can do as He wills..."Hath not the potter power over the clay?" If He makes an exception to the rule He certainly has the authority to do so - does He not? The point is we do not know His mind - you only think you do with you speculations. And if He does make an exception it in no way negates what is written in the Book. You may wish to avoid obeying but you cannot. Your "what if" arguments are in reality simply non-arguments. Why would a believer refuse to be baptized? What would be your gain from such an action?


If I held to your theology, I would be forced to believe that the person that dies on his way to get baptized goes to hell, since I believe that that baptism is the only thing that could have saved him.
But the theology I hold - the theology of the NT - states that it is the blood of Christ that saves - baptism ( a burial in water) is essential to the gospel of grace only as it points the believer to death, burial and resurrection of the Lord and as the initiatory rite that places the believer into the Lord’s church - in Christ Jesus. Salvation is only “in Christ”...
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls…And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. (Acts 2)Is immersion in water commanded by Jesus Christ? Are you justified by not obeying that commandment?

BrckBrln
Jul 11th 2008, 04:30 AM
The speculation is not that such events can happen - the speculation is what judgment God would render to one who died on the way to the baptistery, etc. He doesn't answer those matters for us in the Bible as you have admitted.

But He does when He says that you have to believe (or in your case to believe and be baptized) in order to be saved. So logically we can assume the people that don't do these things, regardless of how 'close' they are to performing then, are not saved. That's not speculation, it's the gospel.



Then you place God into an awfully small box, partner. He can do as He wills..."Hath not the potter power over the clay?" If He makes an exception to the rule He certainly has the authority to do so - does He not? The point is we do not know His mind - you only think you do with you speculations. And if He does make an exception it in no way negates what is written in the Book. You may wish to avoid obeying but you cannot. Your "what if" arguments are in reality simply non-arguments. Why would a believer refuse to be baptized? What would be your gain from such an action?

I agree that if God wanted to He could save somebody on a different basis then what He has revealed to us in His word. But the question is has He or will He do this? As you know it is God's desire for all to be saved, but He doesn't save all. So God can certainly do whatever He wants but He has set some outlines like salvation and I tend to think He sticks with them always. And no, my 'what if' arguments are perfectly valid as they are critical questions dealing with holes in your theology.



But the theology I hold - the theology of the NT - states that it is the blood of Christ that saves - baptism ( a burial in water) is essential to the gospel of grace only as it points the believer to death, burial and resurrection of the Lord and as the initiatory rite that places the believer into the Lord’s church - in Christ Jesus.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

Notice that it says 'through faith' not 'through baptism'. How are we saved? By God's grace through faith, not baptism. The means of salvation are through faith, not being immersed in water. I promise you if it said 'through baptism' then I would certainly agree with you, but it doesn't, so I don't.

losthorizon
Jul 11th 2008, 12:51 PM
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

Notice that it says 'through faith' not 'through baptism'. How are we saved? By God's grace through faith, not baptism. The means of salvation are through faith, not being immersed in water. I promise you if it said 'through baptism' then I would certainly agree with you, but it doesn't, so I don't.
What I find unusual about your theology is you believe the truth of Ephesians 2:8 but reject the words of the Lord in Mark 16:16. The two passages do not contradict each other…we are saved by the grace of God through faith in the Christ as we obey from the heart the “form of doctrine” once and for all time delivered to the saints. You fail to accept the full council of God – choosing instead to isolate passages that suit your peculiar theology…
“He that believes and is baptized shall be saved…”

27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:27-29

DeafPosttrib
Jul 11th 2008, 12:52 PM
losthorizion,

I want to say something about deathbead.

Yes, I do believe a person who is very close to death, can have a chance to be saved, even no time to be baptize.

I heard many cases of deathbead salvation testimonies.

You know, many people who are heart hardened for many years, for being refuse to believe or repent of sins on Jesus. I hear Christians' testimony, about their love ones of relative that, they did praying for their love ones' salvation for many years.

Somehow, when their relatives are very near to death, like, dying of cancer, etc. Christians have sent to witness to a dying person on bed, about salvation, the Holy Spirit did touch dying person' heart as conviction for salvation. A dying person did actual decided to repent of sins, and ask Jesus to forgive and receive Him as saviour. A dying person have no time to get out of bed, go to church or go to the pool, to get baptize. Because a dying perosn is too weak to get baptized. More importantly that God is more interesting in dying person's HEART that, person is actual serious business or mean it. So, God did counted person's salvation.

Same with a thief on the cross, he was dying to death, he did asked Christ for forgiven and repent of sins. No way that he was get off from the cross, down to be baptize. Because he KNEW that he was going to be die within few hours anyway.

More important that, God KNOWS thief's heart, that he wants to be saved with serious business or mean it.

I am not saying that being baptize is not being count for salvation.

I am saying about the SITUATION and condition of person's life while facing death at any moment time. How seriously of person's life is about to be pass away in few minutes or hours, impossible for a person must to be baptize just right after confession upon Christ for salvation. More important that God KNOWS person's heart.

Thief on the cross is a good example of deathbed situation like many people are facing deathbed, no way for them have to be baptize just right after accept Christ, because of their physical doesn't permit or strong enough to get up out of the bed to get baptized.

By the, I do NOT believe that a person being be sprinkle of weater as "baptism" to be count for salvation.

I am sure that, there are MANY of priests do sprinkle of water upon person while facing deathbeds today. That is unbiblical.

Person's responsible is have to make decision, and have to react toward Christ with heart and believing same time. Then, God knows person's heart is more important and counted as salvation. God understands that person cannot get out of the bed, to get baptize. God is interesting in person's heart. That's count for salvation just right moment before death comes.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

losthorizon
Jul 11th 2008, 03:16 PM
DeafPosttrib - excellent points - thanks.

BrckBrln
Jul 11th 2008, 03:22 PM
What I find unusual about your theology is you believe the truth of Ephesians 2:8 but reject the words of the Lord in Mark 16:16.

No, I reject your interpretation of Mark 16:16. And I don't add to Ephesians 2:8 like you do. But think what you like.

And by the way, if you can use just one verse (Mark 16:16) as your holy grail, then I can use Ephesians 2:8 as mine which says nothing about baptism.

keck553
Jul 11th 2008, 03:29 PM
Sometimes I wonder if many in this thread understand the real meaning of immersion in a Mikveh as Jesus Himself understands it. The same God who proscribed these immersions for ritual cleanliness, repentance and other reasons is the same God who commissioned His disciples to proclaim the Good News to all the nations. Baptism isn't some new replacement theology command God came up with 2000 years ago to please Gentiles, and it doesn't replace what He already had in place.

The way people pick and choose which of God's commands to follow and which ones to kick back in His Face is very heartbreaking..

losthorizon
Jul 11th 2008, 05:46 PM
No, I reject your interpretation of Mark 16:16.
Then present your interpretation of Mark 16:16 – does not the grammar (both Greek and English) require that both belief and baptism (the work of faith) come before one “shall be saved”? The lead verb of the passage - “shall be saved” - affirms that only those who have already come to faith (believed) and only those who have already submitted to the Lord's command to be baptized in water are the ones who will be saved by His blood. Is baptism commanded by Christ - is it an option? Why would one not submit to His command? What justification would you give for not being baptized?

BrckBrln
Jul 11th 2008, 06:06 PM
Then present your interpretation of Mark 16:16 – does not the grammar (both Greek and English) require that both belief and baptism (the work of faith) come before one “shall be saved”? The lead verb of the passage - “shall be saved” - affirms that only those who have already come to faith (believed) and only those who have already submitted to the Lord's command to be baptized in water are the ones who will be saved by His blood. Is baptism commanded by Christ - is it an option? Why would one not submit to His command? What justification would you give for not being baptized?

I do understand where you get off saying baptism is necessary in the first half of Mark 16:16. If anybody takes that part and uses it alone, they will be forced to believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, but don't forget, not only is there a second half to the verse, but there is a whole Bible that doesn't validate that claim. It's like I said before.

1. The person that believes and is baptized will be saved.

2. The person that doesn't believe will not be saved.

3. The person that doesn't believe but is baptized will not be saved.

4. The person that believes but is not baptized will.......?

Where do we put this last guy? Heaven or Hell? You can't put him in Hell since the last half of Mark 16:16, along with the rest of the Bible, forbids that, since the person believes. So we are forced to put him in Heaven where he belongs and there are numerous verses to back this claim up. Ephesians 2:8 is just one of them, where no mention of baptism is to be found.

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 11th 2008, 07:33 PM
Then present your interpretation of Mark 16:16 – does not the grammar (both Greek and English) require that both belief and baptism (the work of faith) come before one “shall be saved”? The lead verb of the passage - “shall be saved” - affirms that only those who have already come to faith (believed) and only those who have already submitted to the Lord's command to be baptized in water are the ones who will be saved by His blood. Is baptism commanded by Christ - is it an option? Why would one not submit to His command? What justification would you give for not being baptized?

I have another take on this as it only reads baptized but it certainly does not say baptized in water by a man!

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

You only assume that this talking about baptism in water by man. Mark 1:8 clearly states that John's baptism is in water and the baptism that God himself performs on his believers is with the Holy Spirit.

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

As for command that we are to be baptized in water by man... it does not exist! There is no such command! I'm sure you will pull up one of your early church father quotes or your Holy Writ and quote only the scripture without the verse to backup tyour false statement.

Can you really believe that Mark 10:38 is speaking of John's baptism?

Mark 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

I was baptized in water as a child and according to you, the way you interpret scripture that is when I would have received the Holy Spirit. That is how you interpret the scripture below.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

However I KNOW when I received the Holy Spirit many years later and it was a few minutes after another filled with the Spirit by laying their hands upon me.

Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

You can go back to your early church fathers and your carnal interpretation of the scriptures if you like. I have a greater witness than you.

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

There are many saved that have recieved the Holy spirit witout any intervention by man... baptized by God himself as it is written Mark 1:8, Acts 1:5, Ezekiel 36:25-27.

Peter goes on and explains this as he is revealed the truth and it is clear to him. Maybe you think peter is mistaken? Maybe you read this another way?

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Salvation is not of do this step or that step... nor is it the works of men... do this or that and you will be saved! Mercy is not something you deserve because you did this or that... it is something you do not deserve!

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

This story that baptism is the first step of obedience is also false doctrine (where is the scripture?)... there is no truth in that and it is only mans interpretation.

Michael

InHisImage36
Jul 11th 2008, 08:32 PM
John's baptism could not bring the Holy Spirit. John said as much and so did Paul. Only Jesus Baptizes with the Holy Spirit. The commission which Paul was given by Jesus did not include water baptism:

It is doubtful that Paul could "thank God" he didn't water baptize people if it was part of God's Salvation Work. But he did. What you see is the reverse of what I see. Believers have received the Baptism into Christ's Death and have been raised to a new life via the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is an outward sign or testimony that it has happened inside of us.

Paul gives the reason in the text for thanking God that he didn't perform many baptisms. What was it?

InHisImage36
Jul 11th 2008, 08:37 PM
The verse you quoted above is proof that is it merely a symbol.

The greek word for 'like figure' is antitupos, which means 'symbol'. This same greek word is used in Hebrews 11:17-19,

"By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively (antitupos) speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

And in Hebrews 9:24, "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures (antitupos) of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:"

It's also interesting to note that Noah and his family were saved by getting OUT of the water, not in it.

Baptism is not merely a symbol. According to scripture it is WHEN one is born again. See Rom 6: 1-6

keck553
Jul 11th 2008, 09:34 PM
Romans 6 isn't speaking of a mayim chayim Mikvah, or living water immersion. Romans 6 is repeating the words of Yochanan:

Mat 3:11 It's true that I am immersing you in water so that you might turn from sin to God; but the one coming after me is more powerful than I — I'm not worthy even to carry his sandals — and he will immerse you in the Ruach HaKodesh and in fire.

John the Baptist immersion was for Teshuva, or repentance. The immersion Yeshua gives us when we repnet and trust in Him as our Lord and Savior is an effective immersion with the Holy Spirit and fire.

While water immersion is an action of faith, repentance and surrender, our effective change is not by us in self effort, but by the Holy Spirit. John knew this, thus he differentiated his immersing folks who repent in water from God's immersing folks who repent in the Holy Spirit

Gift of God
Jul 11th 2008, 10:27 PM
keck533, (I refer to the neext to last post of yours)

No one is saying that a believer shouldn't obey God through baptism, but we are saying that baptism is not necessary for salvation. Just as keeping the law perfectly is not necessary for salvation, since no one ever has except the Lord Himself. His righteousness gets imputed to us.

This is not to say that as believers we don't want to be baptized and obey it, or that we don't want to keep the law and obey it, this is to say that salvation doesn't come through these things.

losthorizon
Jul 11th 2008, 10:35 PM
I have another take on this as it only reads baptized but it certainly does not say baptized in water by a man!


Hello Michael - glad to see you back in the discuss my friend - your posts are always entertaining and this one is no exception. Please allow me to point a few flaws in your logic.

First - your notion that the baptism of the Great Commission (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38) is not a reference to the ordinance of baptism (immersion in water) is hardly worth commenting on. The church of God has acknowledged that Jesus commanded baptism in water for over 20 centuries - Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church leaves no doubt...
"This ordinance was regarded in the ancient church as the sacrament of the new birth or regeneration, and as the solemn rite of initiation into the Christian Church, admitting to all her benefits and committing to all her obligations....Its effect consists in the forgiveness of sins and the communication of the Holy Spirit.

"Justin [Martyr] calls baptism 'the water-bath for the forgiveness of sins and regeneration,' and 'the bath of conversion and the knowledge of God.' "It is often called also illumination, spiritual circumcision, anointing, sealing, gift of grace, symbol of redemption, death of sins, etc. Tertullian describes its effect thus: 'When the soul comes to faith, and becomes transformed through regeneration by water and power from above, it discovers, after the veil of the old corruption is taken away, its whole light. It is received into the fellowship of the Holy Spirit; and the soul, which unites itself to the Holy Spirit, is followed by the body.' ...."From [B]John 3:5 and Mark 16:16, Tertullian and other fathers argued the necessity of baptism to salvation....(History of the Christian Church).


As for command that we are to be baptized in water by man... it does not exist! There is no such command!
The above statement is not worthy of comment as it is self-refuting when compared with the historical and biblical record…only one who doesn’t read the NT could make such a silly statement - the NT clearly states that the gospel of Christ includes baptism in water…to "preach Jesus" includes preaching baptism in water - always has - always will...
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus…they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37*And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (Acts 8:35-37)

I was baptized in water as a child and according to you, the way you interpret scripture that is when I would have received the Holy Spirit. That is how you interpret the scripture below.
LOL - you obviously do not read my posts, partner. I do not subscribe to baptismal regeneration (infant baptism, etc) in any form - the idea that the water of baptism imparts salvation to man or child apart from belief and repentance is not a concept found in Holy Writ. Infant baptism (sprinkling) is a non-biblical doctrine of man without sanction from the Eternal. If you were “baptized” as an infant you merely got wet - nothing else. The NT is clear - only those who can profess and confess the "good confession" that Jesus is the Christ are proper candidates for baptism. Anyone who was baptized as an infant needs to be immersed in water for the remission of sins -calling on the name of the Lord…

"...what doth hinder me to be baptized...And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God...And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. (Acts 8).

losthorizon
Jul 11th 2008, 10:49 PM
I do understand where you get off saying baptism is necessary in the first half of Mark 16:16. If anybody takes that part and uses it alone, they will be forced to believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, but don't forget, not only is there a second half to the verse, but there is a whole Bible that doesn't validate that claim.


As already stated the man who both believes and is baptized will be saved - the man who refuses to believe, whether baptized or not baptized will be damned - and this according to no less an authority that Jesus Christ. The NT provides many passages that attest to the necessity of immersion in water as an essential part of the gospel of grace. What does hinder you?
"...arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" Acts 22:16 (KJV).

keck553
Jul 11th 2008, 10:52 PM
keck533, (I refer to the neext to last post of yours)

No one is saying that a believer shouldn't obey God through baptism, but we are saying that baptism is not necessary for salvation. Just as keeping the law perfectly is not necessary for salvation, since no one ever has except the Lord Himself. His righteousness gets imputed to us.

This is not to say that as believers we don't want to be baptized and obey it, or that we don't want to keep the law and obey it, this is to say that salvation doesn't come through these things.

Of course. If one thinks obedience buys them salvation, they are worshipping obedience, not the Creator. Zacharais and his wife kept the law perfectly (at least John says so) and that wasn't thier salvation, and they certainly were not without sin. They knew that it didn't make them righteous, that's why he went into the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur.

I just hear all the time people getting accused of 'working to salvation' just because they love God and want to obey His commandments. I don't know of anyone (well except for a couple mormans) who believe obedience to God will save them, so why is this term (you can't work your way to salvation) constantly wielded?

I admit it, I don't understand the ways of God. I just know in what I read what He says. I'm just going to trust Him as a child, because the most I am compared to Him.

losthorizon
Jul 11th 2008, 11:44 PM
Of course. If one thinks obedience buys them salvation, they are worshipping obedience, not the Creator.

I doubt anyone here thinks "obedience buys them salvation" as you suggest - it is the blood of Christ that payed in full the price for our sins but the Holy Spirit does clearly tell us to “save ourselves” by working out our own salvation with fear and trembling - ie - we must DO something - we must “obey from the heart” the gospel of Christ…”Abraham by faith…obeyed…”
“…with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.“ Acts 2:40

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.“ Phil 2:12-13

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 12th 2008, 12:05 AM
Hello Michael - glad to see you back in the discuss my friend - your posts are always entertaining and this one is no exception.


I'm sure that the discussion for you is just for entertainment reasons most of us have figured that out long ago. ;)



First - your notion that the baptism of the Great Commission (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38) is not a reference to the ordinance of baptism (immersion in water) is hardly worth commenting on. The church of God has acknowledged that Jesus commanded baptism in water for over 20 centuries - Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church leaves no doubt...

"This ordinance was regarded in the ancient church as the sacrament of the new birth or regeneration, and as the solemn rite of initiation into the Christian Church, admitting to all her benefits and committing to all her obligations....Its effect consists in the forgiveness of sins and the communication of the Holy Spirit.

"Justin [Martyr] calls baptism 'the water-bath for the forgiveness of sins and regeneration,' and 'the bath of conversion and the knowledge of God.' "It is often called also illumination, spiritual circumcision, anointing, sealing, gift of grace, symbol of redemption, death of sins, etc. Tertullian describes its effect thus: 'When the soul comes to faith, and becomes transformed through regeneration by water and power from above, it discovers, after the veil of the old corruption is taken away, its whole light. It is received into the fellowship of the Holy Spirit; and the soul, which unites itself to the Holy Spirit, is followed by the body.' ...."From [B]John 3:5 and Mark 16:16, Tertullian and other fathers argued the necessity of baptism to salvation....(History of the Christian Church).


Like I said: I'm sure you will pull up one of your early church father quotes... You have your teachers and I have my teacher (1 John 2:27).



The above statement is not worthy of comment as it is self-refuting when compared with the historical and biblical record…only one who doesn’t read the NT could make such a silly statement - the NT clearly states that the gospel of Christ includes baptism in water…to "preach Jesus" includes preaching baptism in water - always has - always will...

Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus…they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37*And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (Acts 8:35-37)


Like I said there is NO COMMAND TO BE BAPTIZED IN WATER... not in my bible anyway.

The NT also includes the baptism of the Holy Spirit a matter that you cannot seem to comment on with your own words. For you every mention of baptism is of water but we know that Mark 1:8 is a scripture in our bibles... it must have been deleted from yours. :lol:

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.



LOL - you obviously do not read my posts, partner. I do not subscribe to baptismal regeneration (infant baptism, etc) in any form - the idea that the water of baptism imparts salvation to man or child apart from belief and repentance is not a concept found in Holy Writ. Infant baptism (sprinkling) is a non-biblical doctrine of man without sanction from the Eternal. If you were “baptized” as an infant you merely got wet - nothing else. The NT is clear - only those who can profess and confess the "good confession" that Jesus is the Christ are proper candidates for baptism. Anyone who was baptized as an infant needs to be immersed in water for the remission of sins -calling on the name of the Lord…

"...what doth hinder me to be baptized...And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God...And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. (Acts 8).

So what are you saying, that I now need to get baptized again in water, even though I have walked with his spirit for more than 20 years? So does this make sense to you that I was baptized as a child so that wasn't really a baptism because I just got wet. i didn't receive the Spirit then because I was a child but if i was older I would have when baptized in water? But later I recieved the Holy Spirit without baptism in water as have many others, so we should all get baptized in water now?

So how does that work with the scripture below:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Do you really think this makes any sense to someone that has the Holy Spirit and has not been baptized in water at all!

You know I have to also say that you may think that the Christian religion has been doing a fine job for 2000 years but could not disagree more. True spirituality was wiped out of the early church long ago by those that sought to be greatest and have power over others.

They seem to think by doing this or that they will be saved and speak that they know Gods will when they don't even know him or his Spirit at all. Nice buildings but God doesn't live there.

Michael

losthorizon
Jul 12th 2008, 01:32 AM
Like I said: I'm sure you will pull up one of your early church father quotes... You have your teachers and I have my teacher (1 John 2:27).

Just presenting the facts, Michael - whether or not you accept the historical and biblical truth is your choice. But I would suggest you might want to educate yourself and eliminate the peculiar statements you have already made. I know of no scholar that would agree with your notion that the ordinance of baptism (in water) is not commanded by Christ….
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” Matt 28:19. That baptism my friend is a burial in water.


Like I said there is NO COMMAND TO BE BAPTIZED IN WATER... not in my bible anyway.
What version might that be, pray tell?


The NT also includes the baptism of the Holy Spirit a matter that you cannot seem to comment on with your own words. For you every mention of baptism is of water but we know that Mark 1:8 is a scripture in our bibles... it must have been deleted from yours.
I don’t think anyone is denying the NT references to HS baptism but this thread is about the ordinance of baptism commanded by Christ in the Great Commission - the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4. The same baptism in water that you think does not exist as a command…


So what are you saying, that I now need to get baptized again in water, even though I have walked with his spirit for more than 20 years? So does this make sense to you that I was baptized as a child so that wasn't really a baptism because I just got wet. i didn't receive the Spirit then because I was a child but if i was older I would have when baptized in water? But later I recieved the Holy Spirit without baptism in water as have many others, so we should all get baptized in water now?
I am simply declaring the full council of God - the ordinance of baptism is only for those who are capable of making the good confession from the heart - that Jesus Christ is the Son of God - something an infant is not capable of doing. It is those who believe, repent and are baptized who receive the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit per Peter (Acts 2:38).


You know I have to also say that you may think that the Christian religion has been doing a fine job for 2000 years but could not disagree more.
I think the church of God has faithfully proclaimed the truth as presented in the Book for over 2000 years and that truth has always included the command to be immersed in water. Why did the eunuch desire to be immersed in water after he heard the gospel of Christ preached by Philip? Because that gospel included the command to be immersed in water - what version of the Book do you use that doesn't teach that truth? ;)
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

Please observe that I did not make the text. Perhaps, if I had made it, I should have left out that piece about baptism; but I have had no hand in making the Bible, I am obliged to take God’s Word as I find it, and here I read these words of our Lord Jesus Christ, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." "Do not dwell on the baptism," says one; "leave that out." That is what you say, my dear Sir; I cannot see your face, but I do not believe that you are my master. My Master is the Lord who taught holy men to write this Book, and I can only go by the Book; the Book has the baptism in it, so I must stick to the truth as it is in the Book: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." ~ Charles Spurgeon

BrckBrln
Jul 12th 2008, 01:42 AM
I am simply declaring the full council of God

And that consists of one half of a verse? :D ;)

Sorry, I had too.

Anyway, I am going to ask you a question and I hope you answer with a straight answer but...

1. The person that believes and is baptized will be saved.

2. The person that doesn't believe will not be saved.

3. The person that doesn't believe but is baptized will not be saved.

4. The person that believes but is not baptized will...?

I'm pretty sure you will say number one goes to heaven while two and three go to hell, but what about number four? From my vantage point, it seems your theology (which you think is NT theology) says that number four will go to hell. So is this what you believe then?

Like I said, I hope for a straight answer and not one that hides behind speculation or a turn around.

genesisblu
Jul 12th 2008, 02:07 AM
THE BAPTISM IN THE TEXT IS ONE EVIDENTLY CONNECTED WITH FAITH. “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” It strikes me, there is no supposition here, that anybody would be baptized who did not believe; or, if there be such a supposition, it is very clearly laid down that his baptism will be of no use to him, for he will be damned, baptized or not, unless he believes. The baptism of the text seems to me, my brethren, if you differ from me I am sorry for it, but I must hold my opinion and out with it — it seems to me that baptism is connected with, nay, directly follows belief. I would not insist too much upon the order of the words, but for other reasons, I think that baptism should follow believing. At any rate it effectually avoids the error we have been combating. A man who knows that he is saved by believing in Christ does not, when he is baptized, lift his baptism into a saving ordinance. In fact, he is the very best protester against that mistake, because he holds that he has no right to be baptized until he is saved. He bears a testimony against baptismal regeneration in his being baptized as professedly an already regenerate person. Brethren, the baptism here meant is a baptism connected with faith, and to this baptism I will admit there is very much ascribed in Scripture. Into that question I am not going; but I do find some very remarkable passages in which baptism is spoken of very strongly. I find this, “Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” I find as much as this elsewhere; I know that believer’s baptism itself does not wash away sin, yet it is so the outward sign and emblem of it to the believer, that the thing visible may be described as the thing signified. Just as our Saviour said, “This is my body,” when it was not his body, but bread; yet, inasmuch as it represented his body, it was fair and right according to the usage of language to say, “Take, eat, this is my body.” And so, inasmuch as baptism to the believer representeth the washing of sin — it may be called the washing of sin — not that it is so, but that it is to saved souls the outward symbol and representation of what is done by the power of the Holy Spirit, in the man who believes in Christ.
What connection has this baptism with faith? I think it has just this, baptism is the avowal of faith; the man was Christ’s soldier, but now in baptism he puts on his regimentals. The man believed in Christ, but his faith remained between God and his own soul. In baptism he says to the baptizer, “I believe in Jesus Christ;” he says to the Church, “I unite with you as a believer in the common truths of Christianity;” he saith to the onlooker, “Whatever you may do, as for me, I will serve the Lord.” It is the avowal of his faith.
Next, we think baptism is also to the believer a testimony of his faith; he does in baptism tell the world what he believes. “I am about,” saith he, “to be buried in water. I believe that the Son of God was metaphorically baptized in suffering: I believe he was literally dead and buried.” To rise again out of the water sets forth to all men that he believes in the resurrection of Christ. There is a showing forth in the Lord’s Supper of Christ’s death, and there is a showing forth in baptism of Christ’s burial and resurrection. It is a type, a sign, a symbol, a mirror to the world: a looking-glass in which religion is as it were reflected. We say to the onlooker, when he asks what is the meaning of this ordinance, “We mean to set forth our faith that Christ was buried, and that he rose again from the dead, and we avow this death and resurrection to be the ground of our trust.”
Again, baptism is also Faith’s taking her proper place. It is, or should be one of her first acts of obedience. Reason looks at baptism, and says, “Perhaps there is nothing in it; it cannot do me any good.” “True,” says Faith, “a and therefore will I observe it. If it did me some good my selfishness would make me do it, but inasmuch as to my sense there is no good in it, since I am bidden by my Lord thus to fulfil all righteousness, it is my first public declaration that a thing which looks to be unreasonable and seems to be unprofitable, being commanded by God, is law, is law to me. If my Master had told me to pick up six stones and lay them in a row I would do it, without demanding of him, “What good will it do?” Cuibono? is no fit question for soldiers of Jesus. The very simplicity and apparent uselessness of the ordinance should make the believer say, “Therefore I do it because it becomes the better test to me of my obedience to my Master.” When you tell your servant to do something, and he cannot comprehend it, if he turns round and says, “Please, sir, what for?” you are quite clear that he hardly understands the relation between master and servant. So when God tells me to do a thing, if I say, “What for?” I cannot have taken the place which Faith ought to occupy, which is that of simple obedience to whatever the Lord hath said. Baptism is commanded, and Faith obeys because it is commanded, and thus takes her proper place.

losthorizon
Jul 12th 2008, 02:14 AM
And that consists of one half of a verse? :D ;)

Sorry, I had too.

Anyway, I am going to ask you a question and I hope you answer with a straight answer but...

1. The person that believes and is baptized will be saved.

2. The person that doesn't believe will not be saved.

3. The person that doesn't believe but is baptized will not be saved.

4. The person that believes but is not baptized will...?

I'm pretty sure you will say number one goes to heaven while two and three go to hell, but what about number four? From my vantage point, it seems your theology (which you think is NT theology) says that number four will go to hell. So is this what you believe then?

Like I said, I hope for a straight answer and not one that hides behind speculation or a turn around.
I can only answer with what is taught in the Book - the one who believes and is baptized will be saved and the one who does not believe whether baptized or not baptized will be damned. The one who believes will obey the Lord in baptism just like we see in every conversion recorded in the NT. Why would anyone choose not to be baptized? It makes no sense. Do you know of any un-baptized believer in the NT? :)

BrckBrln
Jul 12th 2008, 02:22 AM
Why would anyone choose not to be baptized?

Why do you choose to not answer the question? But, very well. I will just assume that you believe number four goes to hell.

losthorizon
Jul 12th 2008, 02:28 AM
Why do you choose to not answer the question? But, very well. I will just assume that you believe number four goes to hell.
I gave the answer revealed in the Book but you didn't answer my question - why would a believer refuse to be baptized?

BrckBrln
Jul 12th 2008, 02:31 AM
I gave the answer revealed in the Book but you didn't answer my question - why would a believer refuse to be baptized?

You did not give an answer to that specific situation. But it doesn't matter because your theology does and apparently it's one you don't like as you won't admit it.

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 12th 2008, 02:39 AM
Just presenting the facts, Michael - whether or not you accept the historical and biblical truth is your choice. But I would suggest you might want to educate yourself and eliminate the peculiar statements you have already made. I know of no scholar that would agree with your notion that the ordinance of baptism (in water) is not commanded by Christ….

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” Matt 28:19.
That baptism my friend is a burial in water.


To who was Jesus speaking in Matthew 28:19? To the apostles! Where is the COMMAND? There isn't one!



What version might that be, pray tell?


KJV 1611



I don’t think anyone is denying the NT references to HS baptism but this thread is about the ordinance of baptism commanded by Christ in the Great Commission - the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4. The same baptism in water that you think does not exist as a command…


Where is the command? There are only two commands that Jesus left us: (Matthew 22:37)

Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.



I think the church of God has faithfully proclaimed the truth as presented in the Book for over 2000 years and that truth has always included the command to be immersed in water.


What command was that?



Why did the eunuch desire to be immersed in water after he heard the gospel of Christ preached by Philip?


Finally! I thought I was going to have to say it as this is the only scripture that supports your argument at all. But we notice that it was the eunuch desire and there is no mention of the enuch receiving the Holy Spirit. I will admit that this scripture does support your water baptism argument.



Because that gospel included the command to be immersed in water - what version of the Book do you use that doesn't teach that truth? ;)


There is no such command, scripture please.




Please observe that I did not make the text. Perhaps, if I had made it, I should have left out that piece about baptism; but I have had no hand in making the Bible, I am obliged to take God’s Word as I find it, and here I read these words of our Lord Jesus Christ, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." "Do not dwell on the baptism," says one; "leave that out." That is what you say, my dear Sir; I cannot see your face, but I do not believe that you are my master. My Master is the Lord who taught holy men to write this Book, and I can only go by the Book; the Book has the baptism in it, so I must stick to the truth as it is in the Book: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." ~ Charles Spurgeon


It is too bad you can't go by the OP's request?

Quote:
I would like to know your opinions on this topic. I do ask however PLEASE DO NOT refer me to books or another's commentary. I am only interested in your personal opinions based on scriptural evidence.

I could post quotes by many others to support my argument also... the OP has asked us not to.

Michael

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 12th 2008, 02:54 AM
THE BAPTISM IN THE TEXT IS ONE EVIDENTLY CONNECTED WITH FAITH. “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” It strikes me, there is no supposition here, that anybody would be baptized who did not believe; or, if there be such a supposition, it is very clearly laid down that his baptism will be of no use to him, for he will be damned, baptized or not, unless he believes. The baptism of the text seems to me, my brethren, if you differ from me I am sorry for it, but I must hold my opinion and out with it — it seems to me that baptism is connected with, nay, directly follows belief. I would not insist too much upon the order of the words, but for other reasons, I think that baptism should follow believing. At any rate it effectually avoids the error we have been combating. A man who knows that he is saved by believing in Christ does not, when he is baptized, lift his baptism into a saving ordinance. In fact, he is the very best protester against that mistake, because he holds that he has no right to be baptized until he is saved. He bears a testimony against baptismal regeneration in his being baptized as professedly an already regenerate person. Brethren, the baptism here meant is a baptism connected with faith, and to this baptism I will admit there is very much ascribed in Scripture. Into that question I am not going; but I do find some very remarkable passages in which baptism is spoken of very strongly. I find this, “Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” I find as much as this elsewhere; I know that believer’s baptism itself does not wash away sin, yet it is so the outward sign and emblem of it to the believer, that the thing visible may be described as the thing signified. Just as our Saviour said, “This is my body,” when it was not his body, but bread; yet, inasmuch as it represented his body, it was fair and right according to the usage of language to say, “Take, eat, this is my body.” And so, inasmuch as baptism to the believer representeth the washing of sin — it may be called the washing of sin — not that it is so, but that it is to saved souls the outward symbol and representation of what is done by the power of the Holy Spirit, in the man who believes in Christ.
What connection has this baptism with faith? I think it has just this, baptism is the avowal of faith; the man was Christ’s soldier, but now in baptism he puts on his regimentals. The man believed in Christ, but his faith remained between God and his own soul. In baptism he says to the baptizer, “I believe in Jesus Christ;” he says to the Church, “I unite with you as a believer in the common truths of Christianity;” he saith to the onlooker, “Whatever you may do, as for me, I will serve the Lord.” It is the avowal of his faith.
Next, we think baptism is also to the believer a testimony of his faith; he does in baptism tell the world what he believes. “I am about,” saith he, “to be buried in water. I believe that the Son of God was metaphorically baptized in suffering: I believe he was literally dead and buried.” To rise again out of the water sets forth to all men that he believes in the resurrection of Christ. There is a showing forth in the Lord’s Supper of Christ’s death, and there is a showing forth in baptism of Christ’s burial and resurrection. It is a type, a sign, a symbol, a mirror to the world: a looking-glass in which religion is as it were reflected. We say to the onlooker, when he asks what is the meaning of this ordinance, “We mean to set forth our faith that Christ was buried, and that he rose again from the dead, and we avow this death and resurrection to be the ground of our trust.”
Again, baptism is also Faith’s taking her proper place. It is, or should be one of her first acts of obedience. Reason looks at baptism, and says, “Perhaps there is nothing in it; it cannot do me any good.” “True,” says Faith, “a and therefore will I observe it. If it did me some good my selfishness would make me do it, but inasmuch as to my sense there is no good in it, since I am bidden by my Lord thus to fulfil all righteousness, it is my first public declaration that a thing which looks to be unreasonable and seems to be unprofitable, being commanded by God, is law, is law to me. If my Master had told me to pick up six stones and lay them in a row I would do it, without demanding of him, “What good will it do?” Cuibono? is no fit question for soldiers of Jesus. The very simplicity and apparent uselessness of the ordinance should make the believer say, “Therefore I do it because it becomes the better test to me of my obedience to my Master.” When you tell your servant to do something, and he cannot comprehend it, if he turns round and says, “Please, sir, what for?” you are quite clear that he hardly understands the relation between master and servant. So when God tells me to do a thing, if I say, “What for?” I cannot have taken the place which Faith ought to occupy, which is that of simple obedience to whatever the Lord hath said. Baptism is commanded, and Faith obeys because it is commanded, and thus takes her proper place.

I agree with most of what you are saying here.

People do get baptized in water without truly believing and they do not receive his Spirit, many are pressured into it before they are ready. Many are baptized after believing and many don't recieve his Spirit while being baptized in water. Belief has to come before Holy Spirit baptism because God knows the thoughts of the heart. I have a little problem with the command to be baptized as I just don't see it. But at any rate… if you want to know God NOW baptism in the Holy Spirit is needed (born again from above). I have to say that if one has already received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the living water why they would then submit to the symbolic baptism of John in water (h2o). Would they not consider themselves baptized already?

Michael

genesisblu
Jul 12th 2008, 03:35 AM
I agree with most of what you are saying here.

People do get baptized in water without truly believing and they do not receive his Spirit, many are pressured into it before they are ready. Many are baptized after believing and many don't recieve his Spirit while being baptized in water. Belief has to come before Holy Spirit baptism because God knows the thoughts of the heart. I have a little problem with the command to be baptized as I just don't see it. But at any rate… if you want to know God NOW baptism in the Holy Spirit is needed (born again from above). I have to say that if one has already received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the living water why they would then submit to the symbolic baptism of John in water (h2o). Would they not consider themselves baptized already?

Michael

I probably should have specified, sorry my bad...I did not write this it is from Spergeons sermon. He does not believe the Holy Spirit is received during water baptism in and of itself, He does not believe water baptism is salvific. That is defined as baptismal regeneration and he teaches against. He does believe that water baptism has it's place as an obedience from one who is already saved.

losthorizon
Jul 12th 2008, 04:29 AM
To who was Jesus speaking in Matthew 28:19? To the apostles! Where is the COMMAND? There isn't one!


The command from Jesus Christ to “go…teach…baptize” (The Great Commission) was given first to the disciples then present and then to all disciples thereafter as it was and still is the marching orders for the church “even unto the end of the world.” Those who are taught are to be taught “all things whatsoever I have COMMANDED YOU”. Now it would be hard for most folks to miss His COMMAND to “go and baptize” but you obviously are an exception to that rule. Why is it so hard for you - why do you "kick against the pricks"?


Finally! I thought I was going to have to say it as this is the only scripture that supports your argument at all. But we notice that it was the eunuch desire and there is no mention of the enuch receiving the Holy Spirit. I will admit that this scripture does support your water baptism argument.
Yes - it is hard to deny water when it says water. Is the baptism of Mark 16:16 also water? And why exactly did the eunuch desire to be baptized? Simply because the gospel of Christ preached to him by the evangelist included the “Great Commission” command from the Lord to “go…teach…baptize“ - ie - the eunugh desired to obey his Lord in baptism as we all should desire to do - right? And the eunuch most certainly did receive the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit - just as I received the same gift when I was immersed in water calling on His name and just as those 3000 souls on the day of Pentecost who asked “What shall we do to be saved?” were told by Peter to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and they too would receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. All baptized believers receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at the point of immersion into Christ Jesus - the baptism that is a burial in water….a baptism into His death...
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:37-38 (KJV)

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection (Rom 6:3-5)

"Baptism is the grave of the old man, and the birth of the new. As he sinks beneath the baptismal waters, the believer buries there all his corrupt affections and past sins; as he emerges thence, he rises regenerate, quickened to new hopes and new life." ~ J. B. Lightfoot
Have you been buried with Christ in baptism (baptized into His death) to rise up out of the wartery grave quickened to new hopes and new life?

losthorizon
Jul 12th 2008, 05:04 AM
I probably should have specified, sorry my bad...I did not write this it is from Spergeons sermon. He does not believe the Holy Spirit is received during water baptism in and of itself, He does not believe water baptism is salvific. That is defined as baptismal regeneration and he teaches against. He does believe that water baptism has it's place as an obedience from one who is already saved.
Do you think Spurgeon considered baptism to be *essential* to the gospel of Christ - essential to your obedience to Christ? Is baptism in water commanded by Christ or is our friend correct - there exists no command to be baptized in water. Are Christ’s commands idle commands or are His commands *essential* as soon as He commands them?
"Oh!" says one, "you know that baptism is a nonessential." Have I not begged you to cease such idle and wicked talk as that?…What do you mean by "nonessential"? "I mean that I can be saved without being baptized." Will you dare to say that wicked sentence over again? "I mean that I can be saved without being baptized." You mean creature! So you will do nothing that Christ commands, if you can be saved without doing it? You are hardly worth saving at all! A man who always wants to be paid for what he does, whose one idea of religion is that he will do what is essential to his own salvation, only cares to save his own skin, and Christ may go where he likes. Clearly, you are no servant of his; you need to be saved from such a disreputable, miserable state of mind; and may the Lord save you! Oftentimes, I do believe that this little matter of believers’ baptism is the test of the sincerity of our profession of love to him. It would have been all the same, it may be, if the Lord Jesus Christ had said, "Pick Lip six stones off the ground, and carry them in your pocket, and you shall be saved." Somebody would have said, "That stone-picking is a non-essential." It becomes essential as soon as Christ commands it. It is in this way that baptism, if not essential to your salvation, is essential to your obedience to Christ. If you have become his disciple, you are bound henceforth to obey all your Master’s commands: "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do I" ~ Charles Spurgeon

losthorizon
Jul 12th 2008, 05:15 AM
You did not give an answer to that specific situation. But it doesn't matter because your theology does and apparently it's one you don't like as you won't admit it.
I gave the biblical answer - that's the best I can do. Both belief and baptism precede "shall be saved" and the one who refuses to believe shall be damned. That's exactly what I "admit" and I do not have any problem with that position. You still haven't taken a stab at my question - why would a believer refuse to be baptized? It's a fair question - yes?

DeafPosttrib
Jul 12th 2008, 06:10 AM
losthorizon.. Interesting Spuregon's comment on baptism! :hmm:

What book, and where find in page, which Spuregon did actual said on baptism? I want to see his comment in internet.

I know that Spurgeon was calvinist, but I do consider that he was NOT a hyper-calvinist like as today there are too many 'HYPE'-calvinists far more worst than Spuregon.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

genesisblu
Jul 12th 2008, 06:46 AM
If you find that interesting then maybe you should read the other things he said in that sermon to put it all into proper perspective.

This much also I must say, that it is not possible that there can be anything saving in the baptism itself. The act of applying water in any way whatsoever cannot wash away a single sin.

In my text, while it says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved," yet, when the condemnation is announced, it is simply, "He that believeth not shall be damned," and the matter of baptism is not mentioned, for there are many who believe, but who are not baptized, and who cannot be, as the dying thief, for instance, yet are they assuredly saved. Nevertheless, here stands my text, and I cannot alter it, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

Why do you suppose that baptism is put into this prominent position? I think that it is for this reason, Baptism is the outward expression of the inward faith. He who believes in Christ with his heart confesses his faith before God and before the Church of God by being baptized.

And, dear friends, once more, baptism is often the test of obedience. He who believes in Christ takes him to be his Master as well as his Savior; and Christ, therefore, says to him, "Go and do so-and-so." If the man refuses to do it, he thereby proves that he does not intend to be the disciple of the Master. "Oh!" says one, "you know that baptism is a nonessential." ......

You may want include all someone has to say when quoting them. This is from Spurgeon's sermon called Baptism Essential to Obedience.

You cross a fine line on what Spurgeon is actually saying. He never says water baptism is essential to salvation. Aside from the one poster arguing that it is not even essential to obedience (sorry I don't understand that) I don't know of anyone who says it has absolutely no bearing in a Christians life. No, not even I. But that has never been the point. The point was always whether water baptism was required to be saved. Spurgeon makes it quite clear what baptism is. He makes it clear that it is for a person who is ALREADY saved, not the other way around. Whether I agree with him or not isn't even the point but if you are going to quote a commentator it would be best if you didn't only pull out the statements you think make your case.

genesisblu
Jul 12th 2008, 06:58 AM
Before Barnes starts getting spouted too you should note his comment here:

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible: "It is worthy of remark that Jesus has made "baptism" of so much importance. He did not say, indeed, that a man could not be saved without baptism, but he has strongly implied that where this is neglected "knowing it to be a command of the Saviour," it endangers the salvation of the soul."

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 12th 2008, 07:37 AM
The command from Jesus Christ to “go…teach…baptize” (The Great Commission) was given first to the disciples then present and then to all disciples thereafter as it was and still is the marching orders for the church “even unto the end of the world.” Those who are taught are to be taught “all things whatsoever I have COMMANDED YOU”. Now it would be hard for most folks to miss His COMMAND to “go and baptize” but you obviously are an exception to that rule. Why is it so hard for you - why do you "kick against the pricks"?


You have to take this completely out of context to make your commanded point. Consider this... the great commission was given to the apostles and they were sent to baptize. Peter told us to be baptized and said we would receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). But now if you read Acts 8:18 you see that the Holy Spirit was given by laying on of hands!

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,



All baptized believers receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at the point of immersion into Christ Jesus - the baptism that is a burial in water….a baptism into His death...


You know this is really the problem with your belief... just because you are dunked in water does not mean you receive the spirit. You receive the seal of the Holy Spirit when you are baptized in the Holy Spirit. Sometimes this happens in water baptism and sometimes it does not. Sometimes it happens when you are alone with no one around. Sometimes it happens when you are standing and singing to God. The problem I have with this is that many after listening to your teaching would think that right after a baptism in water they automatically received the Spirit when they haven't yet and they now quit looking for him and assume that he is with them even though they have no sign that the Spirit is with them. He is not teaching them and they do not know him. What is even worse they begin to teach and become false prophets.



Have you been buried with Christ in baptism (baptized into His death) to rise up out of the wartery grave quickened to new hopes and new life?

I have Christ with me and what I experienced when I was first anointed was just like warm water being poured over me with waves of love... John's baptism is symbolic of this. I still experience this almost every single day and when I was first anointed almost every minute of the day. I have nothing to boast of because I was a lost sheep sown in weakness, raised in power (1 Corinthians 15:43). Like I said by the laying on of hands and not by being dunked in h2o but sprinkled from above... born from above.

Michael

Australia
Jul 12th 2008, 10:35 AM
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)

The word he is used twice in the verse. Who does he refer to?

Most Christians say that he refers to 'he' and 'she' alike. They use Strong's Concordance to support that.

Using the search function of e-sword's KJV bible, we can look at the following biblical facts;

Throughout the entire book of Mark alone, Jesus used the word whosoever 15 times, he 50 times, and she 8 times.

When Jesus used the word he in the book of Mark, He specifically referred to;

David (2:25-26) (12:37),
Satan (3:26),
a man (3:27) (4:26-29) (7:11) (8:36) (9:39-42) (10:30) (12:2-9) (13:36) (14:13-15),
a male sower (4:4),
any man (4:23-25) (11:3),
Son of man (8:38) (9:12, 31) (10:34) (13:27, 36),
Moses (10:5),
male disciples (10:15) (11:23) (13:13) (14:21, 42) (16:16),
God (12:27) (13:20),
Christ (13:21).

Using the above biblical facts, we can see that Jesus would've LIKELY referred to the eleven (Mark 16:14) male disciples when He twice used the word he in 16:16. If Jesus had referred to men and women alike, or every creature (v15), I believe He would've twice used the word whosoever instead.

We know that the eleven experienced unbelief in the risen Christ (v13-14). How could they preach the gospel to every creature (v15) if they didn't believe?

Jesus had to perform one more miracle to cause them to believe - He levitated and disappeared into the clouds (v19) (Acts 1:9). This miracle caused ALL of them to believe in the risen Christ because we're told that they DID what was commanded of them (Mark 16:15) AFTER He levitated and disappeared (v20).

They were then enabled to perform miraculous signs confirming the word of the gospel (v20) as they preached (v15) because these signs were promised to them as a reward for their eventual belief (v17-18).

At the time of Mark 16:20, the eleven hadn't been baptized by Jesus with the Holy Ghost and with fire, as declared by John the Baptist (Matt 3:11) (Luke 3:16) (Acts 1:5).

Why not? Because Jesus wanted twelve believing apostles to sit upon the twelve thrones (Matt 19:28). The eleven apostles eventually became twelve when THEY were ALL with one accord in one place (Acts 1:26 - 2:1).

As soon as that happened, Jesus baptized them with the Holy Ghost and with fire (2:3-4) as promised (1:4-5) causing them to be saved (Mark 16:16) in order to secure their reservations for the twelve thrones (Luke 22:30). Notice also that they began to speak with other tongues (Acts 2:4) as promised to them that believed (Mark 16:17).

Jesus TOLD them they'd be baptized with the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:5), because that declaration took place at the SAME time as what was declared during the time of Mark 16:16-19 (Acts 1:4, 9).

losthorizon
Jul 12th 2008, 01:35 PM
If you find that interesting then maybe you should read the other things he said in that sermon to put it all into proper perspective.


I have read the sermon in its entirety and what I have clipped is in context with what he is presenting. Spurgeon is one of my favorite preachers from the past - I just have to wade around his occasional off-target Calvinist-Baptist scriptural biases - most of the time he is spot on and he had the conviction to speak his mind. Let me ask you - was he correct when he stated that any command from the Lord “becomes essential as soon as Christ commands it?” Do you agree with me that baptism in water is an essential part of the gospel of Christ...go...teach...baptize...One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism?
Essential: Constituting or forming part of the essence of something; Basic or indispensable; necessary

This much also I must say, that it is not possible that there can be anything saving in the baptism itself. The act of applying water in any way whatsoever cannot wash away a single sin.
Again - no one is saying that water washes away sins - it does not - baptism is an emblem (picture) of inward purification. The blood of Christ is what washes away sins. The biblical truth is simple and straightforward - straight from the mouth of the Lord - both belief and baptism precede “shall be saved” and it is at the point of immersion in water that one contacts the blood of Christ through the operation of the Holy Spirit as that person "calls upon the name of the Lord" being baptized in the name of God. Paul was commanded by the Lord through His servant to - "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

Questions for you - (1) were Paul’s sins washed away by water or by the blood of Christ and (2) did Paul contact the saving blood before, during or after he was immersed in water as he obeyed his Lord in baptism. If you can answer these questions correctly then you and I are on the same page...be baptized...wash away your sins.

losthorizon
Jul 12th 2008, 02:45 PM
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)

The word he is used twice in the verse. Who does he refer to?

Most Christians say that he refers to 'he' and 'she' alike.
Well Australia - it appears to me that you have done a lot of work to sidestep a simple command addressed to the disciples of Christ to take the gospel message to all nation until He comes again. The command to believe and be immersed in water was a command applicable to all believers thus we see on the day of Pentecost some 3000 souls obeying from the heart that very gospel as they are all (men and women) were baptized “for the remission of sins” and they all received the indwelling “gift of the Holy Spirit“ (Acts 2:38). "All nations" includes just that all nations, men, women and children who can understand the gospel and make the "good confession" - "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
"Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 10:32-33). I think you may be “thinking too much” on this matter - my opinion only. Btw - welcome to the board.:)

losthorizon
Jul 12th 2008, 03:03 PM
You have to take this completely out of context to make your commanded point. Consider this... the great commission was given to the apostles and they were sent to baptize. Peter told us to be baptized and said we would receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). But now if you read Acts 8:18 you see that the Holy Spirit was given by laying on of hands!


Like many folks today you fail to make the distinction between (1) the indwelling "gift of the Holy Spirit" that all believers receive when they call upon the name of the Lord in baptism - the ordinance administered by men - a burial in water; (2) “baptism of the Holy Spirit“, a promise made to selected believers (but not all believers) and administered by the Lord Himself - it has nothing to do with water; (3) the imparting of the “gifts” of the Holy Spirit by the “laying on of hands” by the apostles - given to some but not all believers - it also has nothing to do with water. The three are not the same. This thread is dealing with the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4:5 which is number 1 above - the ordinance of baptism commanded to all believers and to be submitted to by all believers until He comes again. Have you been immersed in water as commanded by the Christ?

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 12th 2008, 06:09 PM
Like many folks today you fail to make the distinction between (1) the indwelling "gift of the Holy Spirit" that all believers receive when they call upon the name of the Lord in baptism - the ordinance administered by men - a burial in water; (2) “baptism of the Holy Spirit“, a promise made to selected believers (but not all believers) and administered by the Lord Himself - it has nothing to do with water; (3) the imparting of the “gifts” of the Holy Spirit by the “laying on of hands” by the apostles - given to some but not all believers - it also has nothing to do with water. The three are not the same. This thread is dealing with the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4:5 which is number 1 above - the ordinance of baptism commanded to all believers and to be submitted to by all believers until He comes again. Have you been immersed in water as commanded by the Christ?

I know that many men teach this including the RCC but if you ignore mans teaching for a moment and read the scriptures you will see that it does not support what you think it does.

Sorry but I do not see any difference between "the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit" and “baptism of the Holy Spirit“. Really is his spirit divided? Is not "the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit" administered by the Lord Himself? Baptized with the Holy spirit is being immersed in his spirit, John's baptism in water was symbolic of this.

Then there is your view that only the gifts are imparted by laying on of the hands.



(3) the imparting of the “gifts” of the Holy Spirit by the “laying on of hands” by the apostles.


I this verse below the gift they speak of is the Holy Spirit and in its context no other gift is mentioned:

1 Timothy 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.


In Acts 8:14-17 below it is very clear they had already been baptized in water and had not yet recieved the Spirit until they had layed hands upon them and still no mention of Spiritual gifts here either:

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.


In Acts 10:44-45 below they recieved the Holy Spirit before being baptized in water:

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.


When he speaks of this happening later he makes the connection to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, can it be anymore clear or was Peter wrong?

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?


Now when we look to Pauls ministry we find that again they were baptized with John's baptism and had not recieved the Holy Spirit until Paul layed hands upon them. Here we do find them also speaking in tongues and prophesied but they recieved the Spirit by the laying on of the hands.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


In the verses below we are shown that the knowledge of John's baptism was not the full knowledge of the lord. They explained the way of God more perfectly.

Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

Acts 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

Acts 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.


The OP has asked us NOT to post others commentaries so please try and use your own words and the scriptures as I have. Maybe you or someone else can show me how the scriptures support what you have said... I just don't see it?

Michael

keck553
Jul 12th 2008, 06:18 PM
I doubt anyone here thinks "obedience buys them salvation" as you suggest - it is the blood of Christ that payed in full the price for our sins but the Holy Spirit does clearly tell us to “save ourselves” by working out our own salvation with fear and trembling - ie - we must DO something - we must “obey from the heart” the gospel of Christ…”Abraham by faith…obeyed…”

“…with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.“ Acts 2:40

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.“ Phil 2:12-13


That's not what I said, or perhaps I communicated it wrong. What I meant is that people who do obey God's commands often get accused of legalism and works. It's that mindset that is disturbing. I've seen Christians persecuted by other Christians for obeying God, just because of a false teaching. Where's grace exhibited from they that do this?

losthorizon
Jul 12th 2008, 08:27 PM
I know that many men teach this including the RCC but if you ignore mans teaching for a moment and read the scriptures you will see that it does not support what you think it does.

Sorry but I do not see any difference between "the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit" and “baptism of the Holy Spirit“. Really is his spirit divided? Is not "the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit" administered by the Lord Himself? Baptized with the Holy spirit is being immersed in his spirit, John's baptism in water was symbolic of this.


I am not sure what all that the RCC teaches but I do know she teaches some truth. Again, you remain confused on the work of the Holy Spirit in the church - Holy Spirit "baptism" was a special work of God that was never promised to all people for all time and to my knowledge the NT records only two cases of this special "baptism" both recorded in the book of Acts. The indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit is given to all believers for all time the moment they are forgiven of their sin.

All believers were/are commanded to be immersed in water for the remission of sins and for the purpose of receiving the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) - not one believer was ever commanded to receive Holy Spirit “baptism”. Michael, I would suggest you study Holy Writ a little closer - especially the book of Acts as it relates to the orinance of baptism. I would also suggest you consider being immersed in water per the Lord’s example and command. Being sprinkled as an infant is not immersion in water calling on His name - it is not a burial into His death and a rising to walk in newness of life (Rom 6:3-5).


The OP has asked us NOT to post others commentaries so please try and use your own words and the scriptures as I have.
The OP requested we do not direct *him* “to books or another's commentary” and I never referred him to such.

losthorizon
Jul 12th 2008, 09:07 PM
That's not what I said, or perhaps I communicated it wrong. What I meant is that people who do obey God's commands often get accused of legalism and works. It's that mindset that is disturbing. I've seen Christians persecuted by other Christians for obeying God, just because of a false teaching. Where's grace exhibited from they that do this?
Certainly there are many today who are entangled in legalism and works of merit as an attempt to stand justification before God and we are warned of such excesses but to obey the Lord’s command to be baptized is obedience to His gospel message and has nothing to do with the works of man and everything to do with God’s own work - ie - God removes one’s sins when the believer is baptized into the death of Christ…a baptism in the likeness of his death…
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Romans 6:3-6 (KJV)

losthorizon
Jul 12th 2008, 09:14 PM
losthorizon.. Interesting Spuregon's comment on baptism! :hmm:

What book, and where find in page, which Spuregon did actual said on baptism? I want to see his comment in internet.

I know that Spurgeon was calvinist, but I do consider that he was NOT a hyper-calvinist like as today there are too many 'HYPE'-calvinists far more worst than Spuregon.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Hi DP - Spurgeon was a Baptist-Calvinist - he was not a hyper-Calvinist. He had much to say about baptism - all with the traditional Baptist twist - my quote from his work can be found here...

http://www.siteone.com/religion/baptist/baptistpage/Distinctives/baptism/baptism01_spurgeon.htm

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 12th 2008, 09:17 PM
Holy Spirit "baptism" was a special work of God that was never promised to all people for all time and to my knowledge the NT records only two cases of this special "baptism" both recorded in the book of Acts. The indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit is given to all believers for all time the moment they are forgiven of their sin.


Well if we read Joel it certainly doesn't say some it says all!

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Now we read Acts 2 we can see that Peter tied this to Joel. It does say all here doesn't it!

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

In Acts 11 it says the Spirit fell on them as on us and he ties it to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. In Acts 11:15 he ties this to the day of penticost Acts 2 "fell on them, as on us at the beginning" and as we have seen Acts 2 and Joel is speaking of all and not some.

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

I would suggest you look a little closer at the scripture and reason for yourself instead of relying on the commentaries of others. the Holy spirit baptism is recieving the Spirit of Christ and john's baptism is getting wet.

I think you did a pretty poor job of defending your position. There is not one Spirit that indwells and another that baptizes they are the same spirit.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Now you can throw in the water if you want but it is your assumption only:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So if you are baptized with the Holy Spirit and not with the baptism of John are you saved? Does baptism with the Holy Spirit meet the requirement of Mark 16:16?



I would also suggest you consider being immersed in water per the Lord’s example and command. Being sprinkled as an infant is not immersion in water calling on His name - it is not a burial into His death and a rising to walk in newness of life (Rom 6:3-5).

So my baptism with Holy spirit means that I do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit according to your understanding? Please!:B

In your own words using the scriptures show how I am mistaken in the last two posts!

Michael

losthorizon
Jul 12th 2008, 09:51 PM
Well if we read Joel it certainly doesn't say some it says all!


The prophecy in Joel is not to be taken that ALL as in EVERYONE in the world for all time will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit - “all” simply means both Jews and Gentiles (all mankind) would receive that baptism - God is not a respecter of person. Scripture records the apostles receiving the “baptism” of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost (Jews) and a few years later “the household of Cornelius“ (Gentiles) received this same baptism thus Joel 2:28 has been fulfilled - fulfilled in the first century.


So my baptism with Holy spirit means that I do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit according to your understanding?
According to what is recorded in the Book - only those who believe, repent and are immersed in water receive the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit per Acts 2:38.

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 12th 2008, 10:11 PM
The prophecy in Joel is not to be taken that ALL as in EVERYONE in the world for all time will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit - “all” simply means both Jews and Gentiles (all mankind) would receive that baptism - God is not a respecter of person. Scripture records the apostles receiving the “baptism” of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost (Jews) and a few years later “the household of Cornelius“ (Gentiles) received this same baptism thus Joel 2:28 has been fulfilled - fulfilled in the first century.


When they say all it means all that beleive... it doesn't mean this half or that half and certainly doesn't mean the last days are over, as we are still in the last days! Joel 2:28 is still being fulfilled. What would be the use of the word ALL in Joel? Of course it means Jew and Gentile but certainly would have been written as some to support what you are suggesting.



According to what is recorded in the Book - only those who believe, repent and are immersed in water receive the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit per Acts 2:38.

Nice try! Sorry bud but no water is mentioned in Acts 2:38 as you are already well aware:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Michael

BrckBrln
Jul 12th 2008, 10:18 PM
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And I thought we were to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, not just Jesus Christ. :dunno:

losthorizon
Jul 12th 2008, 10:23 PM
When they say all it means all that beleive... it doesn't mean this half or that half and certainly doesn't mean the last days are over, as we are still in the last days! Joel 2:28 is still being fulfilled. What would be the use of the word ALL in Joel? Of course it means Jew and Gentile but certainly would have been written as some to support what you are suggesting.


No - all does not mean everyone one who believes - we only have two recorded cases of Holy Spirit baptism in the NT but it included all mankind (both Jew and Gentile) thus the prophecy has been fulfilled.


Nice try! Sorry bud but no water is mentioned in Acts 2:38 as you are already well aware:
Wrong again - immersion in water is what is being discussed in Acts 2:38 - the ordinance that puts the believer into Christ - for the remission of sins...the application of water...
Be baptized - See the notes on Mat_3:6, Mat_3:16. The direction which Christ gave to his apostles was that they should baptize all who believed, Mat_28:19; Mar_16:16. The Jews had not been baptized; and a baptism now would be a profession of the religion of Christ, or a declaration made before the world that they embraced Jesus as their Messiah. It was equivalent to saying that they should publicly and professedly embrace Jesus Christ as their Saviour. The gospel requires such a profession, and no one is at liberty to withhold it. A similar declaration is to be made to all who are inquiring the way to life. They are to exercise repentance; and then, without any unnecessary delay, to evince it by partaking of the ordinances of the gospel. If people are unwilling to profess religion, they have none. If they will not, in the proper way, show that they are truly attached to Christ, it is proof that they have no such attachment. Baptism is the application of water, as expressive of the need of purification, and as emblematic of the influences from God that can alone cleanse the soul. It is also a form of dedication to the service of God. ~ Albert Barnes on Acts 2:38

losthorizon
Jul 12th 2008, 10:25 PM
And I thought we were to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, not just Jesus Christ. :dunno:
Oh, come now - surely one as intelligent as you can figure out such a simple detail as this - no? ;)

Brother Mark
Jul 12th 2008, 10:28 PM
There have been many folks that were saved without being baptized, me included. Though I was baptized at a much later date after salvation.

Abraham was saved without being baptized. The thief on the cross was saved without baptism. And my favorite all time example, the publican who beat upon his chest and said "God be merciful to me a sinner" was saved without being baptized. God has saved many folks without using baptism and he continues to do so!

losthorizon
Jul 12th 2008, 10:40 PM
There have been many folks that were saved without being baptized, me included. Though I was baptized at a much later date after salvation.

Abraham was saved without being baptized. The thief on the cross was saved without baptism. And my favorite all time example, the publican who beat upon his chest and said "God be merciful to me a sinner" was saved without being baptized. God has saved many folks without using baptism and he continues to do so!
Do you have any examples of believers in the NT AFTER the Lord gave the Great Commission - “…go…teach…baptize…” who were not baptized in water per His command? Does the NT know of an un-baptized Christian? Does belief and baptism both come before "shall be saved" according to Jesus Christ (Mark 16:16).

BrckBrln
Jul 12th 2008, 10:45 PM
Oh, come now - surely one as intelligent as you can figure out such a simple detail as this - no? ;)

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa! Who said I was intelligent? :cool:

Brother Mark
Jul 12th 2008, 11:37 PM
Do you have any examples of believers in the NT AFTER the Lord gave the Great Commission - “…go…teach…baptize…” who were not baptized in water per His command? Does the NT know of an un-baptized Christian? Does belief and baptism both come before "shall be saved" according to Jesus Christ (Mark 16:16).

Many were saved in the NT and then baptized because Jesus commanded it. When Paul taught about salvation to the Galatians, he spoke of faith and used Abraham as an example. In Romans he also spoke of faith.

Baptism comes after salvation. It's not part of the process.

Australia
Jul 13th 2008, 12:04 PM
Well Australia - it appears to me that you have done a lot of work to sidestep a simple command addressed to the disciples of Christ to take the gospel message to all nation until He comes again. The command to believe and be immersed in water was a command applicable to all believers...

I think you may be “thinking too much” on this matter - my opinion only. Btw - welcome to the board.:)

Hi losthorizon, thank you for the welcome. I see you've done a lot of work trying to defend yourself with numerous posts. I think, simply put, you believe Mark 16:16 to be a command. It is v15 which is the command, not v16.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

v16 is not a continuation of v15, otherwise v15 would end with a colon as you'd find for example in Matt 13:38 - 39.

v16 is simply a factual solution aimed to address the problem of unbelief amongst the eleven as stated in Mark 16:14.

Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

Thus, v16 is not the gospel (v15), nor is it a condition applied to every creature (believing recipients of the gospel).

Australia
Jul 13th 2008, 12:24 PM
Do you have any examples of believers in the NT AFTER the Lord gave the Great Commission - “…go…teach…baptize…” who were not baptized in water per His command? Does the NT know of an un-baptized Christian? Does belief and baptism both come before "shall be saved" according to Jesus Christ (Mark 16:16).

What is the 'Great Commission'? The phrase appears nowhere in the Bible.

Mark 16:15 simply contains "Go...preach..." and ends with a fullstop. There's no "...baptize..." there.

losthorizon
Jul 13th 2008, 12:26 PM
Hi losthorizon, thank you for the welcome. I see you've done a lot of work trying to defend yourself with numerous posts. I think, simply put, you believe Mark 16:16 to be a command. It is v15 which is the command, not v16.


Is it your notion that the Great Commission given by Jesus Christ first to His disciples then present and continuing on through history to His disciples today did not/does not include the command to be baptized in the name of God…”even until the end of the world”? Are you suggesting the church of God has had it wrong for over 2000 years?
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Matt 28:18-20 (KJV)Have you been immersed in water or are you also one who does not believe it important to submit to Christ's command?

losthorizon
Jul 13th 2008, 12:43 PM
Whoa, Whoa, Whoa! Who said I was intelligent? :cool:
Lol - aren't you reading Chesterton’s Orthodoxy? Read his thoughts on the human intellect in the section subtitled, “The Suicide of Thought” - there you might find a few answers to what you seek. ;)
"That peril is that the human intellect is free to destroy itself." ~ G.K. Chesterton

RogerW
Jul 13th 2008, 06:53 PM
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

You've already commented on the first part of the passage, so I thought it might be helpful to comment on the rest of the passage.

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If we stop at only the first phrase of the verse as you have, we miss the meaning of the verse entirely. "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned." In other words, water baptism will not save if one is baptized in unbelief. We can profess belief and be baptized, but if our profession later proves to be false, then our water baptism has no saving merit. This verse tells us that water baptism is not a requirement for salvation, but is nonetheless commanded of those who believe. Therefore water baptism is shown to be a sign of covenant inclusion (members of the church externally). If our faith is saving faith, then we are also baptized with the Holy Spirit, that does actually save.

Many Blessings,
RW

losthorizon
Jul 13th 2008, 07:18 PM
You've already commented on the first part of the passage, so I thought it might be helpful to comment on the rest of the passage.

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If we stop at only the first phrase of the verse as you have, we miss the meaning of the verse entirely (more than once). "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned." In other words, water baptism will not save if one is baptized in unbelief. We can profess belief and be baptized, but if our profession later proves to be false, then our water baptism has no saving merit. This verse tells us that water baptism is not a requirement for salvation, but is nonetheless commanded of those who believe. Therefore water baptism is shown to be a sign of covenant inclusion (members of the church externally). If our faith is saving faith, then we are also baptized with the Holy Spirit, that does actually save.

Many Blessings,
RW

Actually RW - if you read all my posts you will see that I have addressed the passage in its entirety. According to the Lord - the one who believes and is baptized will be saved - the one who does not believe with be damned regardless if he is baptized or not baptized. The latter clause does not negate the fact that both belief and baptism precede “shall be saved”. Even your fellow Calvinists understand this...
"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith" ~ Pulpit Commentary

"...in the latter clause baptism is omitted, because it is not simply the want of baptism, but the contemptuous neglect of it, which makes men guilty of damnation..." ~ Matthew Henry