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manichunter
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:05 PM
Is the Body of Christ missing some vital components of the body? Are they in hiding? Where are the apostles, true prophets and true evangelist?

This is a question I have had since I was a little child and no one has given me an adequate answer besides my current pastor. However, I would like to know if others have this same questions or maybe know the answer.


Eph 4: 11-16 11And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

I could be wrong, but the body is missing some of its parts. I do not see these offices out front leading the body in the commission. Maybe it is not visible enough for me to see. I have actually looked and researched. Who has God called to these offices?

Apostle (Apostolos)- a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
i.e. Paul, Barnabas, Apollos, Peter, John
2Co 12:12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2co+12:12&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

Prophet (Prophetes)- an interpreter of oracles or of other hidden things
i.e. Agabus, Silas, Judas
Ac 21:10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21:10&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11When he had come to us, he took Paul's belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, "Thus says the Holy Spirit, "So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles."'

Evangelist (Euaggelistes)- a bringer of good tidings
i.e. Timonthy, Titus, Mark
2Ti 4:5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ti+4:5&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

According to both Greek and Hebrew grammar, the most important subject of a sentence was place first in order. Hence the proper order for the chain of command would be apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teachers. All these denoting offices of specific elders and how they are suppose to function in the Body of Christ.

Since my childhood I have notice a few things. The evangelist and prophets are subordinate to pastors presently. Pastors presently supervise and command prophets and evangelist. In the Scripture, evangelist and prophets supervised and command the pastors. The evangelist and prophets only had to answer to apostles. This is what I mean by true prophets and evangelist, those that are in their proper place in the chain of command.

Timothy and Titus were evangelists under the supervision of the apostle Paul who were ordered to set up pastors and deacons within local churches. They were then commanded to set the local church structure and supervise their initial development. At no time in the Scripture were the evangelist, prophets, and apostles subordinated to the pastors and teachers.

The apostles are almost totally non-existence because no one is willing to step into the call out of cost to self. The ones that have stepped up are not respected for their authority and office. This is the answer I received recently. The body of Christ does not want apostles. This is the one office along with the prophet that could unite the Body of Christ. They would denounce the fractioning of the body of Christ, the lordship exercised by some local pastors, call for a general repentance and rebuke of the worldliness that has sneaked into some churches, and be truly universal in their commission to spread the gospel of the Kingdom of God.

I believe there is still an apostolic and prophetic calling within the body of Christ. However, I also believe that they would be treated much like the Old Testament Prophets by a great sum of saints just as Israel did when those Old Testament prophets tried to operate in their calling and exercise their God ordained authority. The true apostle and prophet would demand too much from some saints who are comfortable in their established traditions, segregated institutions, and compromised lifestyle. Usually when a real prophet of God showed up, they generally had bad news concerning the state of sin, the need of repentance, and God's possible judgment for not obeying the word given to the prophet. Today, bold and committed apostles and prophets would encounter some large degree of opposition, rebellion, and skepticism from some believers.


Something might be out of order with the five-fold ministry not being in operation. Can the Body of Christ be properly equipped and edified for work of ministry and unity without these offices and body functions?

VerticalReality
Jul 2nd 2008, 07:07 PM
I think they are still in operation. However, I'm not sure I see much of an apostle in many today who are saying, "Hey . . . look at me I'm an apostle!"

Many are operating in the office of an apostle and they just aren't bragging about it.

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 2nd 2008, 08:16 PM
The apostles and prophets are still here and they are used.. but like usual when they are moved to Proclaim..... they are most often resented, stoned literally or verbally, and scorned and mocked... and falsely accused....

How do you determine what the Body of Christ is? is it a politicial, religous huge organization defined by divisions and brick and wood? Maybe one should start there? the definition...

Also.. its very evident that the one who sowed the bad seed or tares has been flourishing quite well ... you can see that by the amount of false doctrine that is out there and the wide acceptance of it..


Paul states that most often apostles are set forth as a spectacle unto the world, to men and to angels... Spectacle means to be set forth in public and to be made sport of.. exibited or gazed at...

No matter how bad the darkness gets.. God is always in control and it doesnt surprise Him.. He will reserve unto Himself a 'remnant' that will not bow down to Baal or Baal worship..

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:10 PM
Is the Body of Christ missing some vital components of the body? Are they in hiding? Where are the apostles, true prophets and true evangelist?

This is a question I have had since I was a little child and no one has given me an adequate answer besides my current pastor. However, I would like to know if others have this same questions or maybe know the answer.


Eph 4: 11-16 11And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

I could be wrong, but the body is missing some of its parts. I do not see these offices out front leading the body in the commission. Maybe it is not visible enough for me to see. I have actually looked and researched. Who has God called to these offices?

Apostle (Apostolos)- a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
i.e. Paul, Barnabas, Apollos, Peter, John
2Co 12:12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2co+12:12&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

Prophet (Prophetes)- an interpreter of oracles or of other hidden things
i.e. Agabus, Silas, Judas
Ac 21:10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+21:10&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11When he had come to us, he took Paul's belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, "Thus says the Holy Spirit, "So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles."'

Evangelist (Euaggelistes)- a bringer of good tidings
i.e. Timonthy, Titus, Mark
2Ti 4:5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2ti+4:5&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

According to both Greek and Hebrew grammar, the most important subject of a sentence was place first in order. Hence the proper order for the chain of command would be apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teachers. All these denoting offices of specific elders and how they are suppose to function in the Body of Christ.

Since my childhood I have notice a few things. The evangelist and prophets are subordinate to pastors presently. Pastors presently supervise and command prophets and evangelist. In the Scripture, evangelist and prophets supervised and command the pastors. The evangelist and prophets only had to answer to apostles. This is what I mean by true prophets and evangelist, those that are in their proper place in the chain of command.

Timothy and Titus were evangelists under the supervision of the apostle Paul who were ordered to set up pastors and deacons within local churches. They were then commanded to set the local church structure and supervise their initial development. At no time in the Scripture were the evangelist, prophets, and apostles subordinated to the pastors and teachers.

The apostles are almost totally non-existence because no one is willing to step into the call out of cost to self. The ones that have stepped up are not respected for their authority and office. This is the answer I received recently. The body of Christ does not want apostles. This is the one office along with the prophet that could unite the Body of Christ. They would denounce the fractioning of the body of Christ, the lordship exercised by some local pastors, call for a general repentance and rebuke of the worldliness that has sneaked into some churches, and be truly universal in their commission to spread the gospel of the Kingdom of God.

I believe there is still an apostolic and prophetic calling within the body of Christ. However, I also believe that they would be treated much like the Old Testament Prophets by a great sum of saints just as Israel did when those Old Testament prophets tried to operate in their calling and exercise their God ordained authority. The true apostle and prophet would demand too much from some saints who are comfortable in their established traditions, segregated institutions, and compromised lifestyle. Usually when a real prophet of God showed up, they generally had bad news concerning the state of sin, the need of repentance, and God's possible judgment for not obeying the word given to the prophet. Today, bold and committed apostles and prophets would encounter some large degree of opposition, rebellion, and skepticism from some believers.


Something might be out of order with the five-fold ministry not being in operation. Can the Body of Christ be properly equipped and edified for work of ministry and unity without these offices and body functions?

great post -- we are in the time of the later rain,

and some apostles and prophets are just now casting the mote out of their own eye and counting the cost-- for there is no doubt as others were stoned so will they

for god is angry - and he will send his messangers to deliver that message again - and many being told it will not like it and will accuse the messangers of many things

but gods will will be done and not one of his will be pryed from his hand

the early rain was began by christ then tapered off
the later rain will begin slow and finish with christ

he is alpha and omega

for that time has now come

timmyb
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:25 PM
We are in desperate need of discernment because most apostles, true and false are grilled on the internet.... That's what decieves many people about certain people and where many make false assumptions based on a critical spirit...

The church needs government within it beginning with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers... no one is better than the other... one of the reasons the church has 'done away' with those is because many who have held that office have given in to pride and have been beheaded by critical spirits within the church when they fall... we often forget that apostles and prophets are human too and we need to hold them up...

manichunter
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:29 PM
The apostles and prophets are still here and they are used.. but like usual when they are moved to Proclaim..... they are most often resented, stoned literally or verbally, and scorned and mocked... and falsely accused....

How do you determine what the Body of Christ is? is it a politicial, religous huge organization defined by divisions and brick and wood? Maybe one should start there? the definition...

Also.. its very evident that the one who sowed the bad seed or tares has been flourishing quite well ... you can see that by the amount of false doctrine that is out there and the wide acceptance of it..


Paul states that most often apostles are set forth as a spectacle unto the world, to men and to angels... Spectacle means to be set forth in public and to be made sport of.. exibited or gazed at...

No matter how bad it the darkness gets.. God is always in control and it doesnt surprise Him.. He will reserve unto Himself a 'remnant' that will not bow down to Baal or Baal worship..

There is a sincere and deep reason why I write things. I wish I had the boldness now to say so........

God is still raising me. I have to develop in character even more so. He told me disciple is a two part process (learning doctrine and disciplining in character) in order for us to fulfill our charge. I have been called to do somethings that are not easy to accept at present. If it was simply to preach as a local pastor, that would be difficult but accomplishable given my experience, knowledge, and support system currently. I have to strive to a higher calling and accept responsibilities that come with great risk of resources, name, and popularity. I have been preaching and teaching for twelve years, but God wants more.........

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:47 PM
There is a sincere and deep reason why I write things. I wish I had the boldness now to say so........

God is still raising me. I have to develop in character even more so. He told me disciple is a two part process (learning doctrine and disciplining in character) in order for us to fulfill our charge. I have been called to do somethings that are not easy to accept at present. If it was simply to preach as a local pastor, that would be difficult but accomplishable given my experience, knowledge, and support system currently. I have to strive to a higher calling and accept responsibilities that come with great risk of resources, name, and popularity. I have been preaching and teaching for twelve years, but God wants more.........

ahh yes he wants what may seem impossible to us,

but we have the spirit and he will guide us

and i know where of you speak

we must be made ready first

9Marksfan
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:47 PM
...apostles in the STRICT NT sense (I'm going to call them Apostles for the sake of ease) can't be around today for four reasons at least:-

1. They had to have been an eyewitness to the resurrection/risen Christ (Acts 1:21-22, 10:41-42). So, unless you can point me to Scripture that contradicts me, Barnabas and Apollos were not Apostles. So it's impossible for anyone since the first century to have been an Apostle.

2. They had a foundational ministry and therefore ceased to be needed once Scripture was complete (Eph 2:20).

3. The simple fact of history is that the office has not existed since the first century - and every church/denomination has accepted this until about 100 years ago.

4. It is the Sovereign Lord of Heaven and Earth who gives these gifts - if He WANTED apostles to exist in the church, He would have clearly called men in every era to fill that role! But because we have the Scriptures completed, there's no longer any need for them - so God doesn't call them!

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:51 PM
There is a sincere and deep reason why I write things. I wish I had the boldness now to say so........

God is still raising me. I have to develop in character even more so. He told me disciple is a two part process (learning doctrine and disciplining in character) in order for us to fulfill our charge. I have been called to do somethings that are not easy to accept at present. If it was simply to preach as a local pastor, that would be difficult but accomplishable given my experience, knowledge, and support system currently. I have to strive to a higher calling and accept responsibilities that come with great risk of resources, name, and popularity. I have been preaching and teaching for twelve years, but God wants more.........


I'm very glad you have that strong desire for a higher calling.. not many want that. they want to be comfortable.. yes if called to a higher calling it does mean giving up things... it means sacrafice.. You will have to expect the unexpected and realize that He has placed that desire in you ... He will carry you thru and give wisdom in each situation....I gave it all up after He saved me... job, money, power, prestige....even my relationship with my fiance.... I was verbally stoned.. called crazy... mocked.. called an idiot.. and so on.. but what the world calls foolilshness God attributes to wisdom... His Words are real.. if any man desire to follow Him.. lay it all down and take up your Cross... When Christ walked with His Cross thru the streets of Jersualem... beaten to bloody pulp.. It wasnt fun.. railing, spit on , mocked... but it was all for One Purpose.. Salvation.. You must count the costs... this life is temporal.. but Eternal Life is forever and has no ending...

keck553
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:57 PM
It also carries with it accountability.

timmyb
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:58 PM
...apostles in the STRICT NT sense (I'm going to call them Apostles for the sake of ease) can't be around today for four reasons at least:-

1. They had to have been an eyewitness to the resurrection/risen Christ (Acts 1:21-22, 10:41-42). So, unless you can point me to Scripture that contradicts me, Barnabas and Apollos were not Apostles. So it's impossible for anyone since the first century to have been an Apostle.

But Paul didn't see the resurrected Christ... he had to receive it by revelation


2. They had a foundational ministry and therefore ceased to be needed once Scripture was complete (Eph 2:20).

Till we all come to the unity of the faith says Ephesians 4, and this discussion is proof that we need both apostles and prophets.


3. The simple fact of history is that the office has not existed since the first century - and every church/denomination has accepted this until about 100 years ago.

then we need to repent and ask the Lord for guidance and let the Lord set people apart for the office


4. It is the Sovereign Lord of Heaven and Earth who gives these gifts - if He WANTED apostles to exist in the church, He would have clearly called men in every era to fill that role! But because we have the Scriptures completed, there's no longer any need for them - so God doesn't call them!

no the church has refused the Sovereign Lord's appointing because we stone them as soon as the Lord reveals them... We need them... the main reason that the church is falling to false doctrines is because we don't have apostles and prophets

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

keck553
Jul 2nd 2008, 09:59 PM
I'm very glad you have that strong desire for a higher calling.. not many want that. they want to be comfortable.. yes if called to a higher calling it does mean giving up things... it means sacrafice.. You will have to expect the unexpected and realize that He has placed that desire in you ... He will carry you thru and give wisdom in each situation....I gave it all up after He saved me... job, money, power, prestige....even my relationship with my fiance.... I was verbally stoned.. called crazy... mocked.. called an idiot.. and so on.. but what the world calls foolilshness God attributes to wisdom... His Words are real.. if any man desire to follow Him.. lay it all down and take up your Cross... When Christ walked with His Cross thru the streets of Jersualem... beaten to bloody pulp.. It wasnt fun.. railing, spit on , mocked... but it was all for One Purpose.. Salvation.. You must count the costs... this life is temporal.. but Eternal Life is forever and has no ending...

Indeed. I sense it also carries with it a greater accountability.

timmyb
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:05 PM
the problem is that we see so many 'false' apostles and 'false' prophets that we would rather just not deal with it because we're lazy and we don't want to deal with it and we have suffered as a church and as a body because of that gaping hole in the ministry of the Lord through those people...

the truth is Paul didn't see Jesus on earth resurected... he had to recieve the revelation by seeing the Lord... people can have this revelation today, but we are trained to doubt and when we are trained to doubt, our discernment goes down to zero and when there's no discernment you either become an emotional addict or a overly critical curmudgeon and either one is a very sad reality

David Taylor
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:06 PM
Is the Body of Christ missing some vital components of the body? Are they in hiding? Where are the apostles, true prophets and true evangelist?



I believe things probably a little more narrowly than you may.



I believe all of the apostles are dead; died 1900 years ago or so.
(Apostle being specific title used to describe an eye-witness to the risen Lord Jesus)



I believe there are no true prophets today either, because God has given us His Word the Bible, and the Holy Spirit to teach us in all understanding.



There however, are many true evangelists with us today. Those who continue to take the gospel of Christ out into the fields ripe for the harvest, sharing the great commission with all whom they meet.


For me, when someone today says, "I'm an Apostle", or "I'm a Prophet" then immediately loose all credibility with me, and I think to myself, "Charlatan....what are you trying to pull? What's your angle here, and who are you going to mislead?"

timmyb
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:07 PM
but David... Paul wasn't an eyewitness... but he was an apostle...

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:19 PM
...apostles in the STRICT NT sense (I'm going to call them Apostles for the sake of ease) can't be around today for four reasons at least:-

1. They had to have been an eyewitness to the resurrection/risen Christ (Acts 1:21-22, 10:41-42). So, unless you can point me to Scripture that contradicts me, Barnabas and Apollos were not Apostles. So it's impossible for anyone since the first century to have been an Apostle.

2. They had a foundational ministry and therefore ceased to be needed once Scripture was complete (Eph 2:20).

3. The simple fact of history is that the office has not existed since the first century - and every church/denomination has accepted this until about 100 years ago.

4. It is the Sovereign Lord of Heaven and Earth who gives these gifts - if He WANTED apostles to exist in the church, He would have clearly called men in every era to fill that role! But because we have the Scriptures completed, there's no longer any need for them - so God doesn't call them!
------------------------------------------------------------------
Nigel,
I usually dont disagree with you but I have to on this one.. Is God the Same today as He was yesterday? Does He have the power to save today as He did in the first century? I think and KNOW He does..
An Apostle is one sent forth with a message, orders, set apart.. Jesus the Christ has the same power today to 'save' somebody as dramatic as Paul and set them apart for the Gospel and send them forth with the message of the Good News... Christ Crucified..this under the office of an apostle or evangelist or teacher... If he/she is 'sent' as a messenger.. then they are considered an apostle... it could be 25 miles or countries.. It doesnt matter.. an Apostle is one sent forth with a message and orders........

Nigel,

I'm a witness to His resurrection as when He saved me He literrally 'touched' my arm as I slept....... I never believed in a resurrected Jesus before that time but today I'm a full blown witness for Him.. One need not be alive in the first century to be a 'witness' to His resurrection...

Thou hast proved mine heart; thou hast visited [me] in the night; thou hast tried me, [and] shalt find nothing; I am purposed [that] my mouth shall not transgress.

David Taylor
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:19 PM
But Paul didn't see the resurrected Christ... he had to receive it by revelation


Sure Paul was a first-hand witness to the resurrected Christ.

Acts 9:3 And as Saul journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do."

Paul's being an eyewitness to the Risen Lord is confirmed in the title of Apostle being used for Paul by other NT Writers:

Luke calls Paul an apostle in Acts 14.
Acts 14:11 "And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:"

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:22 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------
Nigel,
I usually dont disagree with you but I have to on this one.. Is God the Same today as He was yesterday? Does He have the power to save today as He did in the first century? I think and KNOW He does..
An Apostle is one sent forth with a message, orders, set apart.. Jesus the Christ has the same power today to 'save' somebody as dramatic as Paul and set them apart for the Gospel and send them forth with the message of the Good News... Christ Crucified..this under the office of an apostle or evangelist or teacher... If he/she is 'sent' as a messenger.. then they are considered an apostle... it could be 25 miles or countries.. It doesnt matter.. an Apostle is one sent forth with a message and orders........

Nigel,

I'm a witness to His resurrection as when He saved me He literrally 'touched' my arm as I slept....... I never believed in a resurrected Jesus before that time but today I'm a full blown witness for Him.. One need not be alive in the first century to be a 'witness' to His resurrection...

Thou hast proved mine heart; thou hast visited [me] in the night; thou hast tried me, [and] shalt find nothing; I am purposed [that] my mouth shall not transgress.

amen to that :)

timmyb
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:26 PM
Sure Paul was a first-hand witness to the resurrected Christ.

Acts 9:3 And as Saul journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do."

Paul's being an eyewitness to the Risen Lord is confirmed in the title of Apostle being used for Paul by other NT Writers:

Luke calls Paul an apostle in Acts 14.
Acts 14:11 "And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:"



and you don't think that other people could see it the way that Paul saw it... the reason we wouldn't believe that person is because we are trained to doubt everything we aren't used to...

Paul didn't see Jesus the way the original 12 saw him... he had to have a supernatural encounter... something the church at large doesn't believe in nowadays

9Marksfan
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:26 PM
But Paul didn't see the resurrected Christ... he had to receive it by revelation

Yes he DID -that's why I said "resurrection/risen Christ" - do you deny that it was a theophany of the risen Christ that spoke to Him on the Damascus road? That was how he could be an apostle!


Till we all come to the unity of the faith says Ephesians 4, and this discussion is proof that we need both apostles and prophets.

No - they laid the foundation - which is Scripture - we need to get BACK TO SCRIPTURE!


then we need to repent and ask the Lord for guidance and let the Lord set people apart for the office

You have a very warped view of the sovereignty of God - we have to LET God do something? Does the Sovereign Lord of the universe NEED our permission for ANYTHING? Try reading Eph 1:11.


no the church has refused the Sovereign Lord's appointing because we stone them as soon as the Lord reveals them...

Some historical examples, please?


We need them... the main reason that the church is falling to false doctrines is because we don't have apostles and prophets

No - it's because it doesn't know/beleive/understand/apply the Scriptures - if it did, it would be 100% equipped (along with the Holy Spirit) to refute all such error.


Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Of course I agree with this - but the role of Apostles and Prophets was to lay the foundation - and all their teaching was collated into what we have today - the Bible. Now, as for apostles and prophets, yes - in a SECONDARY sense, I do believe they still exist - but they bring NO new revelation - apostles would be missionaries to places that have never heard Christ and prophets would be specially gifted to apply Scripture to given situations and false teachings - and I agree, there is a HUGE need for this today.

timmyb
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:34 PM
Yes he DID -0 that's why I said "resurrection/risen Christ" - do you deny that it was a theophany of the risen Christ that spoke to Him on the Damascus road? That was how he could be an apostle!



No - they laid the foundation - which is Scripture - we need to get BACK TO SCRIPTURE!



You have a very warped view of the sovereignty of God - we have to LET God do something? Does the Sovereign Lord of the universe NEED our permission for ANYTHING? Try reading Eph 1:11.



Some historical examples, please?



No - it's because it doesn't know/beleive/understand/apply the Scriptures - if it did, it would be 100% equipped (along with the Holy SPOirit) to refute all such error.



Of course I agree with this - but the role of Apostles and Prophets was to lay the foundation - and all their teaching was collated into what we have today - the Bible. Now, as for apostles and prophets, yes - in a SECONDARY sense, I do believe they still exist - but they bring NO new revelation - apostles would be missionaries to places that have never heard Christ and prophets would be specially gifted to apply Scripture to given situations and false teachings - and I agree, there is a HUGE need for this today.


I absolutely agree that there's no new revelation that contradicts Scripture, but there are apostles and prophets that give the church vision and help the teachers, pastors and evangelists to apply those scriptures and rightly interpret them... to have it balanced like that keeps people from trying to monopolize scripture...

The realization that they haven't existed for over 1900 in the church at large would be enough historical example of what has happened to our apostles and prophets... John Hus for example..

an apostle has to be more than a missionary or else you could just call them missionaries... they are teachers of doctrines they foster growing churches and teach them, they, while not the head are a vital part of church maintenance... An apostle has churches under his covering to monitor for example how Paul took care of the church in Galatia, Ephesus, Corinth, and Philippi.

9Marksfan
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:35 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------
Nigel,
I usually dont disagree with you but I have to on this one.. Is God the Same today as He was yesterday? Does He have the power to save today as He did in the first century? I think and KNOW He does..
An Apostle is one sent forth with a message, orders, set apart.. Jesus the Christ has the same power today to 'save' somebody as dramatic as Paul and set them apart for the Gospel and send them forth with the message of the Good News... Christ Crucified..this under the office of an apostle or evangelist or teacher... If he/she is 'sent' as a messenger.. then they are considered an apostle... it could be 25 miles or countries.. It doesnt matter.. an Apostle is one sent forth with a message and orders........

See post #20 and see if you still disagree -I believe there is a difference between an Apostle and an apostle - you are talking about an apostle.


Nigel,

I'm a witness to His resurrection as when He saved me He literrally 'touched' my arm as I slept.......

Not wanting to deny your expereince, but you couldn't have been an eyewitness if you were sleeping, could you? I believe the Holy Spirit can literally "touch" us - we can feel the wind and that is what the work of the Spirit in regeneration is compared to in John 3 - but Paul's experience was unique even in NT times - NO ONE else had that kind of theophany because no one else was going to be an apostle "born out of due time" (ie not around to see the resurrected Christ).


I never believed in a resurrected Jesus before that time but today I'm a full blown witness for Him.. One need not be alive in the first century to be a 'witness' to His resurrection...

Well, in that case, we're ALL apostles - but God only gave SOME to be apostles - see what I mean?


Thou hast proved mine heart; thou hast visited [me] in the night; thou hast tried me, [and] shalt find nothing; I am purposed [that] my mouth shall not transgress.

Praise God - I had that same kind of experience as a very young believer whenever I prayed at night - quite amazing, isn't it?

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:37 PM
Nigel,
I love you with a servant's heart but I still disagree with you...One does not need to be living in the first century to be a witness to His resurrection... Oh the Power of the Lord and the power of His Blood! Your in my prayers Nigel.. Be Strong in the Lord and the Power of His Might!

9Marksfan
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:50 PM
I absolutely agree that there's no new revelation that contradicts Scripture,

No, there's no new revelation PERIOD.


but there are apostles and prophets that give the church vision and help the teachers, pastors and evangelists to apply those scriptures and rightly interpret them...

Er, pastor/teachers are one gift - the Greek joins the words - and why, if they were gifted, would they need teachers?


to have it balanced like that keeps people from trying to monopolize scripture...

...leaving that task to the apostles!!!!! ;)


The realization that they haven't existed for over 1900 in the church at large would be enough historical example of what has happened to our apostles and prophets... John Hus for example..

Great man - but he would be the first to admit he was NOT an Apostle - now, prophet (small p)? Absolutely!


an apostle has to be more than a missionary or else you could just call them missionaries...

Fair point - I agree.


they are teachers of doctrines they foster growing churches and teach them, they, while not the head are a vital part of church maintenance... An apostle has churches under his covering to monitor for example how Paul took care of the church in Galatia, Ephesus, Corinth, and Philippi.

Hmm - while I think there is a role for church planters to be apostles (small a), this is getting to be too much like the role Paul had - that is the role of Apostle and if you look at how the leadership of the churches developed in Acts, it went from Apostles (Acts 6) to Apostles and elders (Acts 15) to elders and deacons (Phil 1). Apostles in authority were in a temporary role of oversight until elders and NT teaching got established.

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:50 PM
Not wanting to deny your expereince, but you couldn't have been an eyewitness if you were sleeping, could you? I beleive the Holy Spirit can literally "touch" us - we can feel the wind and that is what the work of the SPirit in regeneration is compared to in John 3 - but Paul's expereince was unique even in NT times - NO ONE esle had that kind of theophany because no one else was going to be an apostle "born out of due time" (ie not around to see the resurrected Christ).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh but I did Nigel.. I was an eyewitness to His Presense and His Resurrection as I slept as He left a mark on my left arm just above the left wrist.... It was there for many weeks and wouldnt go away.. He left that for My Benefit Nigel.. and He told me to go home and tell people what great things God has done for you and that He has touched you.......I know the One who visited me in the night and it was the Resurrected Son of Man.. Jesus the Christ.. who is God in the flesh.. He hasnt changed.. nor His offices He controlls and has lead over...

I've had many since my conversion Nigel say I'm crazy and nuts for what I confess... some think it was the work of the devil and i'm a false preacher or teacher.. many have come to me trying to get me to doubt what happened or to just think it was a dream.. but I KNOW what happened and whom I have believed on... It was real and He is real.. and alive today... for I'm a witness to His resurrection and His saving power and Grace.......God Bless you!

9Marksfan
Jul 2nd 2008, 10:55 PM
Nigel,
I love you with a servant's heart but I still disagree with you...One does not need to be living in the first century to be a witness to His resurrection... Oh the Power of the Lord and the power of His Blood! Your in my prayers Nigel.. Be Strong in the Lord and the Power of His Might!

Thanks for your gracious response - I agree that we are in a real sense ALL witness to the risen Christ - but do you not see that Paul's experience was truly unique? If it was what many (most/all?) believers experienced, then why are we not told this when we read the accounts of how they were converted? Paul's conversion experience was VERY different from all the rest in Acts!

Do you believe that YOU are an apostle?

David Taylor
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:06 PM
I absolutely agree that there's no new revelation that contradicts Scripture, but there are apostles and prophets that give the church vision and help the teachers, pastors and evangelists to apply those scriptures and rightly interpret them...

That is what all Christian Believers do, through the word and the instruction of the Spirit.

Not by applying a no longer existent 1st Century title in front of their name.




an apostle has to be more than a missionary or else you could just call them missionaries... they are teachers of doctrines they foster growing churches

Then call them missionaries and teachers... those titles still do apply today, unlike "Apostle" and "Prophet" which ceased in the 1st century.




An apostle has churches under his covering to monitor for example how Paul took care of the church in Galatia, Ephesus, Corinth, and Philippi.

Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ, not an apostle of the 2nd Baptist Church of Corinth.:eek:

David Taylor
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:13 PM
I Corinthians chapter 9 removes all doubt that Paul was ah apostle, who visibly saw the risen Lord Jesus.

Paul speaking:

9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

fewarechosen
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:19 PM
what scripture states that an apostle has to have seen the risen christ ?

i have never seen it so i might have to learn something new here

David Taylor
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:25 PM
what scripture states that an apostle has to have seen the risen christ ?

9Marksfan listed those scriptures on page I of this thread in his reply (here) (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1695194&postcount=8).

manichunter
Jul 2nd 2008, 11:46 PM
I found these in the Bible in five minutes. It is just plain that we are missing something that was suppose to be continued, but we have rejected it out of a learned carnal bias and loyalty to old schools of thought built on speculation that God has not endorsed. Has God said that the apostolic has ran its course? Has God said the Scriptures made the office apostle null and void? No man said this and does not have anything but his own conjecture to back it up. Ac 1:26 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+1:26&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. This clearly states that they were interested in appointing new apostles

Ac 14:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+14:14&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying outThis clearly states that Barnabas was an apostle Ga 1:19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+1:19&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother.How did James the brother of Jesus get this titled. He did not replace one of the Twelve, but got this office independent of bieng one of the original twelve.



I simply believe that the Church lose its way, reorganized under another system, then revolted against that system, and remodeled themselves in image of their former system in various degrees.

To spell it out.
a.1st century Jewish Hebraic system almost lost completly as a result Roman oppression and gentile idealogies conquering the faith, multiple schools of thought exist.

b.Catholic system put in place as they unify most of Christdom under their organization and ideology. Much is done purpose to define the new faith and cut off Jewish roots.

c.Protestant system created by their rejection of Catholic authority, however they model and follow many Catholic ideologies and manners of service.

This is were most of today Christians beliefs come from. Not from the original apostolic authorities, but from the authority of men without an apostolic calling post 4th century. What Marksmen said comes straight from a Catholic Council in the 4th century almost word for word and it has been handed down to us as doctrine. It is all based on speculation and assumption in an effort to explain the apostolic absence and rejection.

The truth of the matter is that a real prophet of God would have been rejected by Papal authority back in those days by death. People who stood up to Papal authority were killed for denouncing Papal authority and doctrine. I am sure an apostle would have been killed even more so because His authority would supersede Papal authority. Who knows maybe a few who claimed to be apostolic were killed. I will have to do the research.

David Taylor
Jul 3rd 2008, 12:08 AM
Has God said that the apostolic has ran its course?
Yes... it's course ended in the first century A.D.



Has God said the Scriptures made the office apostle null and void?
Yes... null and void after the first century A.D. when the last apostle died, per the scripture given earlier by 9Marksfan.





Ac 1:26 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+1:26&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. This clearly states that they were interested in appointing new apostles
Only during the first century A.D.
No apostles were appointed by God, and verified by name in Scripture, after the first Century A.D.




Ac 14:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+14:14&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying outThis clearly states that Barnabas was an apostle Ga 1:19 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+1:19&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother.How did James the brother of Jesus get this titled. He did not replace one of the Twelve, but got this office independent of bieng one of the original twelve.

Yes... during the first century A.D. many apostles existed(beyond the 11 disciples and Matthias) But from the 2nd century on, there were none, they all died out.

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 12:49 AM
Sure Paul was a first-hand witness to the resurrected Christ.

Acts 9:3 And as Saul journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do."

Paul's being an eyewitness to the Risen Lord is confirmed in the title of Apostle being used for Paul by other NT Writers:

Luke calls Paul an apostle in Acts 14.
Acts 14:11 "And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:"


What about Barnabas? Nothing saying that he was around to be an eyewitness? ;)

David Taylor
Jul 3rd 2008, 01:29 AM
What about Barnabas? Nothing saying that he was around to be an eyewitness? ;)

Dr. Luke must have known something we don't know, by calling him that.:idea:

manichunter
Jul 3rd 2008, 02:49 AM
Yes... it's course ended in the first century A.D.


Yes... null and void after the first century A.D. when the last apostle died, per the scripture given earlier by 9Marksfan.




Only during the first century A.D.
No apostles were appointed by God, and verified by name in Scripture, after the first Century A.D.



Yes... during the first century A.D. many apostles existed(beyond the 11 disciples and Matthias) But from the 2nd century on, there were none, they all died out.

Don't weasel your way out LOL.. Marksman never gave any Scripture for those assumptions. There is no Scripture that supports that assumption. It is based on the fact that their have not been established, recognized, and approved apostles since the earlier centuries.

Most of the early believer history has been lost from the first century. What we have today came from certain gentile apologist post 1st century.

Now, what is needed is actual Scriputural proof. I notice that you ignored by Scripural proof of newly appointed apostles. I clearly showed the Mathais, Barnabas, and James were called Apostles. I clearly showed that Silas, Judas, and Argabus were called prophets. I clearly showed that Timothy was an Evangelist that had authority over pastors.

The problem with a lot of saints today is that we repeat traditional denominational doctrines that were not inspired by God as truth.

I am a student of two seminary schools that taught this doctrine. When I asked for inspired truth, they would quote early church father instructions and catholic councils and not Scripture. Then when I pressed the issue if they had the authority to do this under the command of God. They would eventually say no. Early church father instruction is not Scripture and should not be treated as such.

A many of people called the early church fathers have added to our faith by their instructions that we teach and repeat today as Scripture.

Was Justin Matyr an Apostle
Irenaeus (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08130b.htm) an Apostle
Tertullian an Apostle
Augustine an Apostle
Where the bishops at the Council of Nicea Apostles

These are some of the people we call the early church fathers. Some were saved and devout men for sure. However, we teach their doctrine today as if it was Scripture. We interpret the actual Scripture through their documents. We view Scripture from the filter of the doctrines they established. Not they were not great men, but they were not Apostles. However, they have become apostles to people who established their doctrine based on their instruction. Some of the same men said that their where no more Apostles. Should I take their word for it or believe Scripture. The Scripture said God gave some to be apostles and never stated that God intended to stop giving them. I will believe God who inspired the original apostles. I will not believe the opinions and beliefs of devout men who spoke in speculation and it became canon.

David Taylor
Jul 3rd 2008, 03:12 AM
Don't weasel your way out LOL.. Marksman never gave any Scripture for those assumptions. There is no Scripture that supports that assumption.

Acts 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Matthias was selected to replace Judas as one of the 12 apostles, a man who witness with us of his resurrection, The first example of requirements of an apostle.
(in first century A.D.)


Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God

Again, the apostles chosen before God as witnesses of the risen Lord...
(in first century A.D.)

No ECF sources, no RCC sources just Bible.

cheech
Jul 3rd 2008, 03:17 AM
:hmm: So...did God specifically say there was no need for Apostles and Prophets after a certain time frame or did man think God said it. As far as I can see, the Bible sets no time frame for Apostles and Prophets. IF we are to believe the Bible and that it is inspired by God Himself, wouldn't it make sense that God would specifically state in the Bible (because these books were written at different times) somewhere that there is a time frame for these positions?

It never ceases to amaze me when people set time limits on things in the Bible just because it isn't practiced anymore or at least people think it isn't ;). How many churches cease the gifts of the Holy Spirit because they feel it isn't called for anymore.

Seems to me like man ceases things, not God. But I will say...these positions are still in practice...God just chooses to use those who believe.

manichunter
Jul 3rd 2008, 04:14 AM
Acts 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Matthias was selected to replace Judas as one of the 12 apostles, a man who witness with us of his resurrection, The first example of requirements of an apostle.
(in first century A.D.)


Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God

Again, the apostles chosen before God as witnesses of the risen Lord...
(in first century A.D.)

No ECF sources, no RCC sources just Bible.

Then why is Barnabas called an Apostle. Paul was not there to witness His resurrection. Plus you forgot about the from the Baptism of John part. Most of the Apostles were picked up after the Baptism of John. They were simply looking for qualified men who would fill Judas place because not all of them met this standard. Matthew was picked up well off into Jesus ministry.

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 10:39 AM
That is the one thing that no one can show. The gifts haven't ended nor have the "offices" (for lack of a better word). Folks are taking a pretty big guess there because we know that Scripture says that the Lord calls some to be Apostles, prophets, etc. The only thing that stopped at their death... was their letters. ;)

Slug1
Jul 3rd 2008, 12:00 PM
That is the one thing that no one can show. The gifts haven't ended nor have the "offices" (for lack of a better word). Folks are taking a pretty big guess there because we know that Scripture says that the Lord calls some to be Apostles, prophets, etc. The only thing that stopped at their death... was their letters. ;)AMEN :amen:

matthew94
Jul 3rd 2008, 12:08 PM
Whether the gifts have ended is a completely different question than whether there are capital 'A' Apostles. I'd guess that very few people on this board are cessationists (no more gifts), but probably the majority believe there are no more Apostles.

I think it is very important to make a distinction b/w Apostles and apostles. Apostles are, as David said, men who witnessed the resurrected Christ and, for the most part, were with Jesus from baptism to resurrection. Of course there are exceptions, but they prove the general rule. Lower case 'a' apostles are men sent out by the church to plant a new church and granted apostolic authority over that church plant. In that sense, I could imagine modern day apostles (but very few of the people claiming to be an 'apostle' today even fit the bill, on the other hand, probably a lot of people not claiming it do fit the bill...same goes for prophets). And there are tons of evangelists.

9Marksfan
Jul 3rd 2008, 12:16 PM
Whether the gifts have ended is a completely different question than whether there are capital 'A' Apostles. I'd guess that very few people on this board are cessationists (no more gifts), but probably the majority believe there are no more Apostles.

I think it is very important to make a distinction b/w Apostles and apostles. Apostles are, as David said, men who witnessed the resurrected Christ and, for the most part, were with Jesus from baptism to resurrection. Of course there are exceptions, but they prove the general rule. Lower case 'a' apostles are men sent out by the church to plant a new church and granted apostolic authority over that church plant. In that sense, I could imagine modern day apostles (but very few of the people claiming to be an 'apostle' today even fit the bill, on the other hand, probably a lot of people not claiming it do fit the bill...same goes for prophets). And there are tons of evangelists.

Amen - I completely agree with this.

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 12:48 PM
Well... I don't know of many that would lay claim to have the Apostolic calling of Peter or Paul or those guys in that they have authority to lay a different foundation than the one they laid... that foundation being Christ. So that's a technicality with that little "a" thing. Goodness Nigel... if you completely agree with that then you believe there are still apostles... so why the disagreement in the first place? :lol:

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 12:52 PM
And let's go ahead and knock this out. Are there no more Prophets but still "p"rophets? I mean come on guys... look at how goofy we can get with those type technicalities. It is endless. There is no more Word but we have "w"ord! There is no more Jesus but we have "j"esus... and what freaks many out... We aren't God but we are "g"od. ;)

My point being... the word there in Ephesians is apostle. Big A... little a... those are but technicalities that man puts on it because of nervous issues I suppose. :lol: When we start doing the Big letter Little letter thing... that's when things can get weird!

RJ Mac
Jul 3rd 2008, 01:32 PM
I agree with Marksfan, there are no apostles alive to day as there are no
prophets. The apostles and prophets mentioned in Eph. are still with us today.
They are Mt. Jn. Paul. the prophets we have are Mk. Lk. Jam. etc.
What they wrote is still with us and their words are still with us, they remain
the apostles and prophets of the church today.

I know of know man who claims to be an apostle or prophet today and if
there were, I wouldn't believe nor follow them, unless what they said was
confirmed by God's Word, therefore what need is there for them?

But there is a dire need for evangelists and solid teachers of God's word,
who teach that which they learn from the writings of the apostles and
prophets and blessed by the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Highest office in the church today is the elder/bishop/pastor and that office
is one of a servant.

RJ

matthew94
Jul 3rd 2008, 01:50 PM
I don't think it's 'weird' at all to distinguish b/w big A and little a apostles. And it's not a useless technicality. There's a big difference b/w the Apostles who laid the foundation of the church, who are pillars of the church, who physically walked with Jesus, talked with Jesus and saw His risen life VERSUS those who simply point out the foundation that the Apostles already laid and who rely on the eye-witness accounts of those Apostles. It's a worthwhile clarification.

David Taylor
Jul 3rd 2008, 01:54 PM
I agree with Marksfan, there are no apostles alive to day as there are no
prophets. The apostles and prophets mentioned in Eph. are still with us today.
They are Mt. Jn. Paul. the prophets we have are Mk. Lk. Jam. etc.
What they wrote is still with us and their words are still with us, they remain
the apostles and prophets of the church today.


Beautifully simple analogy! :pp

Through the Word of God that we have, Matthew, Paul, James, Peter, etc...have remained the Apostles and Prophets of God; continnuing to share the full revelation of the truth (The Bible) to millions of people throughout 20 centuries.




I know of know man who claims to be an apostle or prophet today and if
there were, I wouldn't believe nor follow them, unless what they said was
confirmed by God's Word, therefore what need is there for them?

Amen.



But there is a dire need for evangelists and solid teachers of God's word,
who teach that which they learn from the writings of the apostles and
prophets and blessed by the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Amen and Amen; even the mighty 'seven-fold amen'!



Highest office in the church today is the elder/bishop/pastor and that office is one of a servant.

Seemed to be the office that Jesus put the most importance on.

manichunter
Jul 3rd 2008, 02:54 PM
What of the evangelist being subordinate to the pastor.......... Is that correct. Should evangelist be supervised, ordained, and commanded by pastors. In the Scripture it was the other way around. The Evangelist supervised and commanded, and ordained pastors. The Evangelist had a greater authority that has been subordinated to pastors today. What happened here. I do not think this is correct. I think man subordinated the evangelist to pastors.

There are some people today who claim to be apostles. I do not know if their claims are true. I do know that the two witnesses will be operating with signs and wonders in the fashion of apostles and prophets. I just wanted to know what were the theories out there.

fewarechosen
Jul 3rd 2008, 03:11 PM
What of the evangelist being subordinate to the pastor.......... Is that correct. Should evangelist be supervised, ordained, and commanded by pastors. In the Scripture it was the other way around. The Evangelist supervised and commanded, and ordained pastors. The Evangelist had a greater authority that has been subordinated to pastors today. What happened here. I do not think this is correct. I think man subordinated the evangelist to pastors.

There are some people today who claim to be apostles. I do not know if their claims are true. I do know that the two witnesses will be operating with signs and wonders in the fashion of apostles and prophets. I just wanted to know what were the theories out there.

many of those who call themselves pastors and priests and such today , will be the very ones who stone the olive branches-- just as their fathers did

manichunter
Jul 3rd 2008, 03:24 PM
many of those who call themselves pastors and priests and such today , will be the very ones who stone the olive branches-- just as their fathers did

I sometimes wonder if the Christian body has repeated some of the same errors of OT Israel. My pastor has said that the certain segments of the Church have experienced certain periods of silence, without going into detail. I have not asked him why, but I will now............

I wonder if segments of the body can be judged by God for sin. I think only individuals are judged for sin presently, not institutions. I do not really know.

cheech
Jul 3rd 2008, 04:26 PM
And let's go ahead and knock this out. Are there no more Prophets but still "p"rophets? I mean come on guys... look at how goofy we can get with those type technicalities. It is endless. There is no more Word but we have "w"ord! There is no more Jesus but we have "j"esus... and what freaks many out... We aren't God but we are "g"od. ;)

My point being... the word there in Ephesians is apostle. Big A... little a... those are but technicalities that man puts on it because of nervous issues I suppose. :lol: When we start doing the Big letter Little letter thing... that's when things can get weird!

I just have a habit of capitalizing things...my bad? OCD? :hmm: aaaacckkk...did it again :rolleyes:

fewarechosen
Jul 3rd 2008, 04:36 PM
I sometimes wonder if the Christian body has repeated some of the same errors of OT Israel. My pastor has said that the certain segments of the Church have experienced certain periods of silence, without going into detail. I have not asked him why, but I will now............

I wonder if segments of the body can be judged by God for sin. I think only individuals are judged for sin presently, not institutions. I do not really know.


in a way i think so -- look how in rev he wrote to the 7 angels of the churches -- he was telling them the flaws in each -- that was to address us as individuals and as bodies.

9Marksfan
Jul 3rd 2008, 04:39 PM
Well... I don't know of many that would lay claim to have the Apostolic calling of Peter or Paul or those guys in that they have authority to lay a different foundation than the one they laid... that foundation being Christ. So that's a technicality with that little "a" thing. Goodness Nigel... if you completely agree with that then you believe there are still apostles... so why the disagreement in the first place? :lol:

Because even in the NT, there was a distinction between the Apostles and eg the apostles Andronicus and Junia and the apostles/messengers mentioned in 2 Cor 8:23.

manichunter
Jul 3rd 2008, 04:40 PM
in a way i think so -- look how in rev he wrote to the 7 angels of the churches -- he was telling them the flaws in each -- that was to address us as individuals and as bodies.


This will help with my investigation. I started a new thread on this topic within Bible Chat. Please feel free to visit and post your comments.

Thanks a whole lot. This shows that God does speak to churches in the prophetic about their state, doctrine, and possible judgment.

9Marksfan
Jul 3rd 2008, 04:41 PM
I agree with Marksfan, there are no apostles alive to day as there are no
prophets. The apostles and prophets mentioned in Eph. are still with us today.
They are Mt. Jn. Paul. the prophets we have are Mk. Lk. Jam. etc.
What they wrote is still with us and their words are still with us, they remain
the apostles and prophets of the church today.

I know of know man who claims to be an apostle or prophet today and if
there were, I wouldn't believe nor follow them, unless what they said was
confirmed by God's Word, therefore what need is there for them?

But there is a dire need for evangelists and solid teachers of God's word,
who teach that which they learn from the writings of the apostles and
prophets and blessed by the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Highest office in the church today is the elder/bishop/pastor and that office
is one of a servant.

RJ

I know we frequently disagree, RJ, but I can say a hearty :amen: to your entire post!

manichunter
Jul 3rd 2008, 04:44 PM
Because even in the NT, there was a distinction between the Apostles and eg the apostles Andronicus and Junia and the apostles/messengers mentioned in 2 Cor 8:23.

But apostles do suppose to exist correct. I am not talking about the manner and duty of a specific apostle. That can vary depending on God's individual commission per apostle. As I stated, Barnabas was classified as an apostle as well as others. I just think that the church purposely tried to cut them out of the deal, hence why we are so suspect of those who have an apostolic callings today.

DadBurnett
Jul 3rd 2008, 04:47 PM
:hmm: So...did God specifically say there was no need for Apostles and Prophets after a certain time frame or did man think God said it. As far as I can see, the Bible sets no time frame for Apostles and Prophets. IF we are to believe the Bible and that it is inspired by God Himself, wouldn't it make sense that God would specifically state in the Bible (because these books were written at different times) somewhere that there is a time frame for these positions?

It never ceases to amaze me when people set time limits on things in the Bible just because it isn't practiced anymore or at least people think it isn't ;). How many churches cease the gifts of the Holy Spirit because they feel it isn't called for anymore.

Seems to me like man ceases things, not God. But I will say...these positions are still in practice...God just chooses to use those who believe.

This is not a recommendation … it is an observation based on personal experience. Others have asked similar questions and millions of them have found an answer that works for them. That answer is embodied in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Mormons. It is a church governed by a succession of prophets and twelve apostles with bishops, elders, priest, deacons; an authoritarian church rooted in the idea that “as it was then, so it is now in these latter days”. Christ’s Church, the say, has been restored and one sign of this is its Biblical organization.
So, the question must be asked, i think, are things like having a Biblical structure, or gifts, signs and miracles have any relevance with regard to what Jesus implied – that’s ours was to be a life of Faith rooted in the reality of God’s Spirit in us?

manichunter
Jul 3rd 2008, 05:00 PM
in a way i think so -- look how in rev he wrote to the 7 angels of the churches -- he was telling them the flaws in each -- that was to address us as individuals and as bodies.

This proves that the prophetic was operating and interacting with believers regarding judgment.

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 06:49 PM
I agree with Marksfan, there are no apostles alive to day as there are no
prophets. The apostles and prophets mentioned in Eph. are still with us today.
They are Mt. Jn. Paul. the prophets we have are Mk. Lk. Jam. etc.
What they wrote is still with us and their words are still with us, they remain
the apostles and prophets of the church today.

I know of know man who claims to be an apostle or prophet today and if
there were, I wouldn't believe nor follow them, unless what they said was
confirmed by God's Word, therefore what need is there for them?

But there is a dire need for evangelists and solid teachers of God's word,
who teach that which they learn from the writings of the apostles and
prophets and blessed by the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Highest office in the church today is the elder/bishop/pastor and that office
is one of a servant.

RJ
By what standard do you figure you can erase two out of there as done gifts never again issued by Christ... yet three are allowed to remain?

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 06:52 PM
I don't think it's 'weird' at all to distinguish b/w big A and little a apostles. And it's not a useless technicality. There's a big difference b/w the Apostles who laid the foundation of the church, who are pillars of the church, who physically walked with Jesus, talked with Jesus and saw His risen life VERSUS those who simply point out the foundation that the Apostles already laid and who rely on the eye-witness accounts of those Apostles. It's a worthwhile clarification.Well... it is worthwhile in that there are a few goofy movements out there that try and sell folks on there being a new thing and all and they are all about having their apostles. But then there are folks out there that say they are Jesus or the two witnesses or Michael the archangel etc. Most of us don't need be told they are sort of nuts.

Again... I know many folks that walk in the apostolic ministry which is what an apostle does. Big A... little a... depends on where it lands when discussing it. Otherwise... it is but a technicality. None of them believe they have a "new foundation" to lay in regard to Christ.

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 06:54 PM
Beautifully simple analogy! :pp

Through the Word of God that we have, Matthew, Paul, James, Peter, etc...have remained the Apostles and Prophets of God; continnuing to share the full revelation of the truth (The Bible) to millions of people throughout 20 centuries.



Amen.


Amen and Amen; even the mighty 'seven-fold amen'!


Seemed to be the office that Jesus put the most importance on.I will ask the same of you too! By what authority do you have to change that passage in Ephesians that is clear that Jesus gives us these offices for the body? Scripture doesn't change it so someone must have authority to make that call I figure... I really would like to know what authority that is. That is unless there is a passage that I have missed over the years studying Scripture... but I don't think you have any such passage. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 06:58 PM
I sometimes wonder if the Christian body has repeated some of the same errors of OT Israel. My pastor has said that the certain segments of the Church have experienced certain periods of silence, without going into detail. I have not asked him why, but I will now............

I wonder if segments of the body can be judged by God for sin. I think only individuals are judged for sin presently, not institutions. I do not really know.They ABSOLUTELY have. No doubt about it. There isn't error today that isn't simply repeated error. I've studied that out many times over the years. Might even be worth a thread but shoot... it would get folks all bunched up. I shall ponder that though...never been one to worry that much about folks getting bunched up. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:02 PM
Because even in the NT, there was a distinction between the Apostles and eg the apostles Andronicus and Junia and the apostles/messengers mentioned in 2 Cor 8:23.Nigel that is pretty weak! :lol:

Acts 14:14 But when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out

NASB And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.

I mean come on man... gotta do better than that! :lol: There is no such distinction. A simple case sensitive (if your Bible program allows for that) word search and I think you'd of been embarrassed to pull that one. ;) If your program don't have that feature let me know and I will post a boat load of times the little "a" was used talking about all of the apostle's.

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:04 PM
What of the evangelist being subordinate to the pastor.......... Is that correct. Should evangelist be supervised, ordained, and commanded by pastors. In the Scripture it was the other way around. The Evangelist supervised and commanded, and ordained pastors. The Evangelist had a greater authority that has been subordinated to pastors today. What happened here. I do not think this is correct. I think man subordinated the evangelist to pastors.

There are some people today who claim to be apostles. I do not know if their claims are true. I do know that the two witnesses will be operating with signs and wonders in the fashion of apostles and prophets. I just wanted to know what were the theories out there.It isn't about "supervising." The minute it is about that... there is no longer service. The minute it isn't about service... not a very good apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor or teacher. ;) Each has their own gift to bring to the body.

manichunter
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:05 PM
Maybe the established institutions do not want the authority of apostles, prophets, and evangelist coming back.

fewarechosen
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:10 PM
Maybe the established institutions do not want the authority of apostles, prophets, and evangelist coming back.

i agree because many may cling to earthly doctrine and would not have the ears to hear the truth.

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:11 PM
This is not a recommendation … it is an observation based on personal experience. Others have asked similar questions and millions of them have found an answer that works for them. That answer is embodied in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Mormons. It is a church governed by a succession of prophets and twelve apostles with bishops, elders, priest, deacons; an authoritarian church rooted in the idea that “as it was then, so it is now in these latter days”. Christ’s Church, the say, has been restored and one sign of this is its Biblical organization.
So, the question must be asked, i think, are things like having a Biblical structure, or gifts, signs and miracles have any relevance with regard to what Jesus implied – that’s ours was to be a life of Faith rooted in the reality of God’s Spirit in us? Goodness though... that's another something that we could take to all sorts of conclusions. Paul demanded order but hey today... disorder is cool! Just because a group is goofy doesn't make the pattern bad. That's the thing about God that one should see when starting at Genesis and reading through the book... God is a God of patterns. God's ways don't change and that's one of His ways. Always has been.

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:12 PM
Maybe the established institutions do not want the authority of apostles, prophets, and evangelist coming back.Nah... I don't buy that although sure there are some that wouldn't. By and large though... I think the thing is that they have folks walking in that gift. They just don't dare use the "A" word because well... read the thread and it is evident why. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:15 PM
i agree because many may cling to earthly doctrine and would not have the ears to hear the truth.
And everyone that believes differently than those instutions say the same thing and those institution say the same thing about everyone else. So there you go... we now understand.

My point... that sort of thinking or attitude does nothing to help fix the problem. Time is WAY too short to still be going on about the "institution." We that complain about it are just as guilty as the worst of the institutions.

manichunter
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:16 PM
Nah... I don't buy that although sure there are some that wouldn't. By and large though... I think the thing is that they have folks walking in that gift. They just don't dare use the "A" word because well... read the thread and it is evident why. ;)

I agree Pet, some would and would not, I will make the exchange for a smaller brush. Where is Naphal for all of this....... LOL

matthew94
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:22 PM
ProjectPeter,

I still think you are making too little of the difference b/w a guy like Peter and apostles today. The word 'apostle' simply means one sent out. Peter was sent out DIRECTLY by Jesus in the flesh. He walked with Jesus and talked with Jesus and was sent by Jesus. He physically saw the resurrected Savior.

Someone might very well be 'sent out' by a church today. Christ might even endorse it. But it is different in an important way, as you yourself mentioned, they would not be establishing a foundation, but simply describing an already laid foundation. In other words, the foundation and key pillars of what God is building are already erected. Any 'apostle' today is just bring more stones for installation.

And so apostles and prophets and evangelists do indeed exist today, but they are different. If you insist on disagreeing, shall I assume that your canon is getting bigger and bigger as the years go on?

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:32 PM
ProjectPeter,

I still think you are making too little of the difference b/w a guy like Peter and apostles today. The word 'apostle' simply means one sent out. Peter was sent out DIRECTLY by Jesus in the flesh. He walked with Jesus and talked with Jesus and was sent by Jesus. He physically saw the resurrected Savior.

Someone might very well be 'sent out' by a church today. Christ might even endorse it. But it is different in an important way, as you yourself mentioned, they would not be establishing a foundation, but simply describing an already laid foundation. In other words, the foundation and key pillars of what God is building are already erected. Any 'apostle' today is just bring more stones for installation.

And so apostles and prophets and evangelists do indeed exist today, but they are different. If you insist on disagreeing, shall I assume that your canon is getting bigger and bigger as the years go on?Um... who gifts the apostle, evangelist, teacher, prophet, or pastor? Who gifted them then and who gifts them now?


I already said there is no need to build the already built foundation right? Perhaps you really weren't getting a dig in so as to further your case but just missed that post I made on that... I will assume that since I know how much you often talk about hating the barbs that folks toss out and you'd never do that your own self. ;)

fewarechosen
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:42 PM
And everyone that believes differently than those instutions say the same thing and those institution say the same thing about everyone else. So there you go... we now understand.

My point... that sort of thinking or attitude does nothing to help fix the problem. Time is WAY too short to still be going on about the "institution." We that complain about it are just as guilty as the worst of the institutions.

good news is no institution teaches us the holy spirit does and at the end of the day only gods doctrine will remain, he will seperate wheat from tares and nothing will be left uncovered.
so praise god for that

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:47 PM
Um... and on this topic... why is "teacher" listed among these giftings of Christ? I mean if the Holy Spirit is THE ONE AND ONLY teacher... who needs man? Gifted or not?

matthew94
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:54 PM
Um... who gifts the apostle, evangelist, teacher, prophet, or pastor? Who gifted them then and who gifts them now?

Jesus does. But on the topic of 'apostles' there is a distinction worth noting. Some are sent out directly by Jesus. Some are sent out directly by the church using previous apostolic authority.

You've avoided the issue. Unless you accept a 21st century 'apostles' writings as Scripture, you recognize a difference as well. I'll state it another way, if we found another letter written by, let's say, the Apostle Andrew. And it was 100% fact that he wrote it, I'd accept it as NT Scripture no problem. I would NEVER say the same thing about a 21st century 'apostle'.

There is such a thing as a distinction worth making. Paul thought so anyways, that's why he consistently brought up the issue of his gospel vs. other gospels. It's easy to claim to be an Apostle. But, according to Paul, all later apostles are judged against the originals.


I already said there is no need to build the already built foundation right? Perhaps you really weren't getting a dig in so as to further your case but just missed that post I made on that... I will assume that since I know how much you often talk about hating the barbs that folks toss out and you'd never do that your own self. ;)Yes, you already said it. Some claim otherwise. So it's surprising that you're resisting the distinction that serves the purpose of correcting those that do. I am unfamiliar with your 'dig' and 'barb' terminology so I can't comment on that. But I did read your post and I still felt you were ignoring the importance of the distinction while at the same time agreeing with what it's purposed to accomplish.

fewarechosen
Jul 3rd 2008, 07:59 PM
Um... and on this topic... why is "teacher" listed among these giftings of Christ? I mean if the Holy Spirit is THE ONE AND ONLY teacher... who needs man? Gifted or not?

the holy spirit is the one and only teacher.
he just might use a man to do it.

i find it interesting that you believe that man is teaching and not the holy spirit.

that is how man made doctrine creeps in


also the scripture say you need no man teach you

that is a big difference than saying man is not used to teach you.

also remember its never the man teaching you its the holy spirit inside them teaching you.

christ was the greatest teacher ever - but it was of no use to the hard hearted pharisees

they had not the ears to hear

and i assure i need no man, i need only god

but that is your choice if you feel you need man

DadBurnett
Jul 3rd 2008, 08:03 PM
the holy spirit is the one and only teacher.
he just might use a man to do it.

i find it interesting that you believe that man is teaching and not the holy spirit.

that is how man made doctrine creeps in


also the scripture say you need no man teach you

that is a big difference than saying man is not used to teach you.

also remember its never the man teaching you its the holy spirit inside them teaching you.

christ was the greatest teacher ever - but it was of no use to the hard hearted pharisees

they had not the ears to hear

and i assure i need no man, i need only god

but that is your choice if you feel you need man

Who then, would need Paul or any of the Christ's disciples /apostles? :hmm:

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 08:13 PM
Jesus does. But on the topic of 'apostles' there is a distinction worth noting. Some are sent out directly by Jesus. Some are sent out directly by the church using previous apostolic authority.

You've avoided the issue. Unless you accept a 21st century 'apostles' writings as Scripture, you recognize a difference as well. I'll state it another way, if we found another letter written by, let's say, the Apostle Andrew. And it was 100% fact that he wrote it, I'd accept it as NT Scripture no problem. I would NEVER say the same thing about a 21st century 'apostle'.

There is such a thing as a distinction worth making. Paul thought so anyways, that's why he consistently brought up the issue of his gospel vs. other gospels. It's easy to claim to be an Apostle. But, according to Paul, all later apostles are judged against the originals.

Yes, you already said it. Some claim otherwise. So it's surprising that you're resisting the distinction that serves the purpose of correcting those that do. I am unfamiliar with your 'dig' and 'barb' terminology so I can't comment on that. But I did read your post and I still felt you were ignoring the importance of the distinction while at the same time agreeing with what it's purposed to accomplish.Few seem to be able to make that distinction on the dig analogy. Sort of amazing how that works.

As to the difference... I already made that distinction Matthew. In making that distinction... why in the world would you think it odd and then say that I am avoiding making that distinction? Folks would complain if they were hung with a new rope! :lol:

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 08:14 PM
the holy spirit is the one and only teacher.
he just might use a man to do it.

i find it interesting that you believe that man is teaching and not the holy spirit.

that is how man made doctrine creeps in


also the scripture say you need no man teach you

that is a big difference than saying man is not used to teach you.

also remember its never the man teaching you its the holy spirit inside them teaching you.

christ was the greatest teacher ever - but it was of no use to the hard hearted pharisees

they had not the ears to hear

and i assure i need no man, i need only god

but that is your choice if you feel you need manUm... again there Hoss. Why did the Lord gift some as teachers if they were not needed to teach? It really is a simple question... right?

RJ Mac
Jul 3rd 2008, 08:29 PM
I didn't say the Apostles and Prophets were removed, they are permanently
with us through the Word. Their purpose was to bring us the Word of God,
they had the miraculous gifts to confirm what they spoke was the Truth.
They were specifically chosen and sent by the HS, Ac.13:2;

I believe we have the perfect with us today, 1Cor.13:10; The Word of God.
The Apostolic authority was given to a few, who wrote the word of God.
For a man today to be an apostle would be to say there is modern revelation
and the Bible is incomplete. What Paul wrote was the word of God 1Cor.14:37

Paul also warned if anyone comes along teaching contrary to what Paul was
teaching let him be accursed Gal.1:6-10;

Again we have not eliminated the Apostles and Prophets, we have just
recognized their purpose, to bring us the Word and we follow their
teachings as they wrote by guidance of the HS.

To claim we have living apostles with us today would be to deny what has
been written and the whole Truth cannot be known, if there is on going
revelations today, 'what has God said today?' You will be forever in the dark
if you chose to follow modern day apostles and prophets.

RJ

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 08:31 PM
I didn't say the Apostles and Prophets were removed, they are permanently
with us through the Word. Their purpose was to bring us the Word of God,
they had the miraculous gifts to confirm what they spoke was the Truth.
They were specifically chosen and sent by the HS, Ac.13:2;

I believe we have the perfect with us today, 1Cor.13:10; The Word of God.
The Apostolic authority was given to a few, who wrote the word of God.
For a man today to be an apostle would be to say there is modern revelation
and the Bible is incomplete. What Paul wrote was the word of God 1Cor.14:37

Paul also warned if anyone comes along teaching contrary to what Paul was
teaching let him be accursed Gal.1:6-10;

Again we have not eliminated the Apostles and Prophets, we have just
recognized their purpose, to bring us the Word and we follow their
teachings as they wrote by guidance of the HS.

To claim we have living apostles with us today would be to deny what has
been written and the whole Truth cannot be known, if there is on going
revelations today, 'what has God said today?' You will be forever in the dark
if you chose to follow modern day apostles and prophets.

RJ
What has been written about apostle's that deny they are here today? Folks say that but thing is... it ain't in the Bible. So by what authority do you make such claim?

RabbiKnife
Jul 3rd 2008, 08:40 PM
Ignores that prophets and apostles had roles other than merely being eyewitnesses to the resurrected Christ.

matthew94
Jul 3rd 2008, 08:48 PM
ProjectPeter,

The fact you are from Georgia is very obvious today! Your whole personality is much more southern in feel :)

I guess I'm just a little confused by your seeming lack of consistency. You agree there's a distinction, but you think it's silly to make it visibly (using 'A' and 'a'). I just don't see how it's worthwhile to contest this method of distinguishing.

Not a big deal, I am just think you're style today is sorta odd. In a funny way though. Hope you're having fun!

9Marksfan
Jul 3rd 2008, 08:51 PM
Nigel that is pretty weak! :lol:

Is it? That's what Vine says too - and innumerable Protestant commentators since the reformation.......


Acts 14:14 But when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out

NASB And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.

I mean come on man... gotta do better than that! :lol: There is no such distinction.

There may not be a separate Greek word - and we have chosen to use the capital (for ease of reference) but you yourself must accept that several Greek words in the NT had more than one meaning - right? I believe that in the context in which Luke was writing, Paul and Barnabas were apostles, as they were sent out to church plant etc - althougn Paul as it happened was an Apostle too.


A simple case sensitive (if your Bible program allows for that) word search and I think you'd of been embarrassed to pull that one. ;) If your program don't have that feature let me know and I will post a boat load of times the little "a" was used talking about all of the apostle's.

I KNOW it was the little "a" every time - and the word apostolos - but I contend it had more than one meaning. This may be standard Pentecostal doctrinel, but it's at variance with all other Protestant doctrine over the past 500 years!

Tell me this - do you think there were any female Apostles?

And do you think the eleven got it right when they chose Matthias by lots?

RabbiKnife
Jul 3rd 2008, 08:57 PM
Paul indicates in Romans that there were female apostles.

DadBurnett
Jul 3rd 2008, 09:11 PM
Paul indicates in Romans that there were female apostles.

Where, what verse?

RabbiKnife
Jul 3rd 2008, 09:18 PM
Junia, Romans 16:7...

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 09:20 PM
ProjectPeter,

The fact you are from Georgia is very obvious today! Your whole personality is much more southern in feel :)

I guess I'm just a little confused by your seeming lack of consistency. You agree there's a distinction, but you think it's silly to make it visibly (using 'A' and 'a'). I just don't see how it's worthwhile to contest this method of distinguishing.

Not a big deal, I am just think you're style today is sorta odd. In a funny way though. Hope you're having fun!Shoot man... every day is a fun day! :D

But no... it is not different. While there is a distinction... the whole little "a" and big "A" thing just seems sort of odd to me... not to mention a wee bit legalistic even though I almost hate that word!

An apostle is an apostle is an apostle. The gift is the same (unless of course we can show where it has changed and while I challenge anyone to do that... I can tell you now there is no such Scripture saying so). Again... there are groups that do goofy stuff so we all come up with ways to separate ourselves from them but perhaps that's it... perhaps I am tired of us all getting goofy ourselves just to pull away from other goofiness. In the end... we all just look retarded.

Every worked the streets? Folks look at us and giggle at stuff like this because ultimately they are right... even Christian's don't really believe Scripture or change it to fit what they think it should fit. There is nothing that says the office of apostle has ceased or been closed. Even 1 Corinthians 13 don't work for the office gifts. So here we are... if it has changed... on who's authority did this happen? I mean it is obvious that even you have no such Scripture because if you did... I know you by now... you would have it all over this thread. But it ain't there. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jul 3rd 2008, 09:23 PM
Is it? That's what Vine says too - and innumerable Protestant commentators since the reformation.......



There may not be a separate Greek word - and we have chosen to use the capital (for ease of reference) but you yourself must accept that several Greek words in the NT had more than one meaning - right? I believe that in the context in which Luke was writing, Paul and Barnabas were apostles, as they were sent out to church plant etc - althougn Paul as it happened was an Apostle too.



I KNOW it was the little "a" every time - and the word apostolos - but I contend it had more than one meaning. This may be standard Pentecostal doctrinel, but it's at variance with all other Protestant doctrine over the past 500 years!

Tell me this - do you think there were any female Apostles?

And do you think the eleven got it right when they chose Matthias by lots?Then show us that passage Nigel that explains the difference and says that it has ceased today? If you can then I am converted. If not... then you either have to add to it to make it fit or just make it up. But if it is true... let it be Scriptural. I mean you are the one making the big issue of Scripture being the only source... ;) Mind you I agree with that but then Scripture doesn't say it has ceased nor changed. So one of us is wrong. I have Scripture on my side... you don't. Commentaries aren't Scripture are they.... otherwise you have apostle's setting a new foundation. ;)

9Marksfan
Jul 3rd 2008, 10:09 PM
Then show us that passage Nigel that explains the difference and says that it has ceased today? If you can then I am converted. If not... then you either have to add to it to make it fit or just make it up.

It''s the teaching of the NT as a whole on the role and function of apostles. Man, it would take too long to put it all down here. But one doesn't have to have a "proof text" to make something correct - the whole teaching of Scripture is far safer - and it teaches that apostled gradually faded from the scene and were replaced by elders as the ones who led in the church.


But if it is true... let it be Scriptural. I mean you are the one making the big issue of Scripture being the only source... ;) Mind you I agree with that but then Scripture doesn't say it has ceased nor changed. So one of us is wrong. I have Scripture on my side... you don't.

Sorry - beg to differ - OK - apostles had authority - to do what? To rule? To start with, yes - that's why in Acts, gifts were laid at the apostles' feet/ To determine doctrine? Initially, yes - look at Acts 15 - yet even there, elders are starting to have shared authority with them. By the time you get to Philippians, it's the elders and deacons who are in authority in the churches - apostles' influence is already waning as the canon of Scripture is completing and the foundation that they and the prophets are laying (Eph 2:20) is almost done.


Commentaries aren't Scripture are they.... otherwise you have apostle's setting a new foundation. ;)

:lol: But it begs the question - if apostles are still arounf today and their role is to lay the foundation of the church - how come it's still being laid 2000 years on? And in what way is it being laid beyond Scripture?

9Marksfan
Jul 3rd 2008, 10:16 PM
Junia, Romans 16:7...

This in itself shows that there was a distinction - none of the twelve was female - and the ret of the NT shows that theose in authority were exclusively men - so Andronicus and Junia were mesenger apostles. There is of course the interpretation that A and J had an outstanding REPUTATION among the apostles......;)

matthew94
Jul 3rd 2008, 10:31 PM
Shoot man... every day is a fun day! :D

But no... it is not different. While there is a distinction... the whole little "a" and big "A" thing just seems sort of odd to me... not to mention a wee bit legalistic even though I almost hate that word!

An apostle is an apostle is an apostle. The gift is the same (unless of course we can show where it has changed and while I challenge anyone to do that... I can tell you now there is no such Scripture saying so). Again... there are groups that do goofy stuff so we all come up with ways to separate ourselves from them but perhaps that's it... perhaps I am tired of us all getting goofy ourselves just to pull away from other goofiness. In the end... we all just look retarded.

Every worked the streets? Folks look at us and giggle at stuff like this because ultimately they are right... even Christian's don't really believe Scripture or change it to fit what they think it should fit. There is nothing that says the office of apostle has ceased or been closed. Even 1 Corinthians 13 don't work for the office gifts. So here we are... if it has changed... on who's authority did this happen? I mean it is obvious that even you have no such Scripture because if you did... I know you by now... you would have it all over this thread. But it ain't there. ;)

The funny thing is, the Scriptures that support what I am saying are there, have been mentioned, and you agree with them (as far as I know). I have not argued, in this thread, that there are no longer apostles. I am arguing that there is a key difference b/w the first apostles and subsequent apostles (which, when you look at things in perspective, is pretty much what everyone you're at odds with here is arguing). And you agree with that!

So the whole debate is pretty silly. You're speaking as if I'd make use of 'A' vs. 'a' in evangelism, haha! I am only speaking of it as a way of communicating clearly with fellow Christians. :)

ProjectPeter
Jul 4th 2008, 12:53 AM
It''s the teaching of the NT as a whole on the role and function of apostles. Man, it would take too long to put it all down here. But one doesn't have to have a "proof text" to make something correct - the whole teaching of Scripture is far safer - and it teaches that apostled gradually faded from the scene and were replaced by elders as the ones who led in the church.Really... well there's time still. So lay it out because I have read Scripture countless times from front to back and I don't see what you say is there. If you aren't just making it up then surely you can show it... right? ;)


Sorry - beg to differ - OK - apostles had authority - to do what? To rule? To start with, yes - that's why in Acts, gifts were laid at the apostles' feet/ To determine doctrine? Initially, yes - look at Acts 15 - yet even there, elders are starting to have shared authority with them. By the time you get to Philippians, it's the elders and deacons who are in authority in the churches - apostles' influence is already waning as the canon of Scripture is completing and the foundation that they and the prophets are laying (Eph 2:20) is almost done. Where does Scripture say anything about this "shared authority?" Just because they were part of the "council" doesn't make it shared authority. Simply means they all got to gather to determine this. ;)


:lol: But it begs the question - if apostles are still arounf today and their role is to lay the foundation of the church - how come it's still being laid 2000 years on? And in what way is it being laid beyond Scripture?Nigel... the foundation still needs laid. That foundation being Christ, crucified, resurrected and believe on Him. It is being done in places like African villages etc even still today. That hasn't changed. The instruction on how the church need behave... still needing done as that church grows. Pastor's need appointed... etc. None of that has changed.

ProjectPeter
Jul 4th 2008, 12:56 AM
The funny thing is, the Scriptures that support what I am saying are there, have been mentioned, and you agree with them (as far as I know). I have not argued, in this thread, that there are no longer apostles. I am arguing that there is a key difference b/w the first apostles and subsequent apostles (which, when you look at things in perspective, is pretty much what everyone you're at odds with here is arguing). And you agree with that!

So the whole debate is pretty silly. You're speaking as if I'd make use of 'A' vs. 'a' in evangelism, haha! I am only speaking of it as a way of communicating clearly with fellow Christians. :)Well the oddest thing is that folks that come right out and said "NOPE... NONE!!! are still out there. So until they respond to some of the post... gotta yap with somebody! ;)

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 01:10 AM
Um... again there Hoss. Why did the Lord gift some as teachers if they were not needed to teach? It really is a simple question... right?

fewarechosen is making the point, and its a good one, that the Holy Spirit is teaching THROUGH man.

Man is not teaching.

For Paul said...

1 Corinthians 2:13 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Corinthians+2:13&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Corinthians+2&version=9)
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

ProjectPeter
Jul 4th 2008, 01:19 AM
fewarechosen is making the point, and its a good one, that the Holy Spirit is teaching THROUGH man.

Man is not teaching.

For Paul said...

1 Corinthians 2:13 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Corinthians+2:13&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Corinthians+2&version=9)
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Um... who was teaching the Corinthian church that?

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 02:06 AM
Um... who was teaching the Corinthian church that?

The Holy Spirit through Paul of course.

Who do you think was?

DadBurnett
Jul 4th 2008, 02:23 AM
While the debate over “A” or “a” or old –vs-new apostles goes on, there is still another unresolved debate; an online search reveals that there is still no clear consensus among Bible scholars and translators as to Junia being a man, or a woman …

Brother Mark
Jul 4th 2008, 02:45 AM
The Holy Spirit through Paul of course.

Who do you think was?

So when God said he gave some to be teachers, he was wasting his time because, after all we don't need men to teach us. :rolleyes: It's a misapplication to say we don't need spirit filled men to teach and guide us. If Moses thought it wise to have a Hobab, then certainly we might think about it as well.

manichunter
Jul 4th 2008, 02:47 AM
What did I miss. What about the evangelist and prophets today being subordinate and supervised by pastors. In Scripture it was the other way around who changed that order of things.

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 03:38 AM
So when God said he gave some to be teachers, he was wasting his time because, after all we don't need men to teach us. :rolleyes: It's a misapplication to say we don't need spirit filled men to teach and guide us. If Moses thought it wise to have a Hobab, then certainly we might think about it as well.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

So if Paul says he didn't receive it of man, who did he receive it by? The revelation of Jesus Christ. Then why do we need men to teach it to us if Paul didn't need one to teach it to him?

Brother Mark
Jul 4th 2008, 03:40 AM
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

So if Paul says he didn't receive it of man, who did he receive it by? The revelation of Jesus Christ. Then why do we need men to teach it to us if Paul didn't need one to teach it to him?

Because God thought it wise to give the church teachers.

Eph 4:10-13
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
NASB

So apparently, God thought them important for the equipping of the body of Christ. If God thinks them important, then I do too.

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 03:56 AM
Because God thought it wise to give the church teachers.

Eph 4:10-13
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
NASB

So apparently, God thought them important for the equipping of the body of Christ. If God thinks them important, then I do too.

So do you deny that it is the Holy Spirit in them that does the works?

John 14:10 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+14:10&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+14&version=9)
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

In this very scripture Christ says that it is not him that did the works but the Father working through him. Christ himself!

Are you going to say that the apostles did the works and taught when Christ himself says he didn't do them but the Father that dwelled in him was responsible?

matthew94
Jul 4th 2008, 05:58 AM
What did I miss. What about the evangelist and prophets today being subordinate and supervised by pastors. In Scripture it was the other way around who changed that order of things.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'll tell you why I didn't respond to this... I don't know what you mean. I don't know any pastor of a church that has authority over an evangelist, for example. Are you referring to a specific denomination that you are familiar with?

manichunter
Jul 4th 2008, 12:50 PM
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'll tell you why I didn't respond to this... I don't know what you mean. I don't know any pastor of a church that has authority over an evangelist, for example. Are you referring to a specific denomination that you are familiar with?

That is true, it is mostly associated with denominations that I have been associated with. Missionary Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, and few Non-Denoms, Church of God in Christ. I have not been a member of one that has has evangelist over pastors. Not to say that there aren't any. I just do not know about any. I travel the globe in the military joining various churches regardless of affiliation because I was led to fellowship with them. So, I have about ran the circuit of church membership because the military had me moving every two years.

ProjectPeter
Jul 4th 2008, 01:01 PM
The Holy Spirit through Paul of course.

Who do you think was?
Paul. Let's cut through the religious speak stuff eh? It was man teaching folks. The fact that Paul was called and empowered is a given just as it should be with any called teacher out there today. The gifting is from the Lord and if the Lord still calls folks don't you think they are still equipped by Him for what is needed or do you think all of that changed as well?

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 01:12 PM
Paul. Let's cut through the religious speak stuff eh? It was man teaching folks. The fact that Paul was called and empowered is a given just as it should be with any called teacher out there today. The gifting is from the Lord and if the Lord still calls folks don't you think they are still equipped by Him for what is needed or do you think all of that changed as well?

Sadly I don't think anything has changed.

Fine lets cut through the religious speak stuff and trust in the Word.

John 14:10 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+14:10&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+14&version=9)
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Now I will ask you the same question I posed already in this thread that was avoided.

If Christ himself says that he speaks not of himself but his Father does the works, then how can you say the apostles do the teaching and do the works themselves? Were they more than Christ?

Yes all the apostles are chosen out of the world by Christ, then they are filled with the Holy Spirit.

And how do you then answer this...

Mark 13:11 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Mark+13:11&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Mark+13&version=9)
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost does the speaking. Not man. We are just a container in which the Spirit resides.

ProjectPeter
Jul 4th 2008, 01:18 PM
Sadly I don't think anything has changed.

Fine lets cut through the religious speak stuff and trust in the Word.

John 14:10 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+14:10&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+14&version=9)
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Now I will ask you the same question I posed already in this thread that was avoided.

If Christ himself says that he speaks not of himself but his Father does the works, then how can you say the apostles do the teaching and do the works themselves? Were they more than Christ?

Yes all the apostles are chosen out of the world by Christ, then they are filled with the Holy Spirit.

And how do you then answer this...

Mark 13:11 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Mark+13:11&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Mark+13&version=9)
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost does the speaking. Not man. We are just a container in which the Spirit resides.
My point is it is man speaking and OF COURSE THEY DO SO by the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! But it still comes out of man's mouth... taught through man. To say NO MAN teaches me... well wake up folks... God teaches through the mouth of man hence His calling and empowering some with the ability to teach. Same as with the other mentions in Ephesians 4.

So if a man teaches you that is CALLED TO TEACH... is it in fact a man teaching? YES it most clearly is. If he is a called to teach man... it is a GIVEN that it is from the Spirit of God.

Again... do you believe that ALL of the ministry gifts are now nixed?

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 01:41 PM
My point is it is man speaking and OF COURSE THEY DO SO by the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! But it still comes out of man's mouth... taught through man. To say NO MAN teaches me... well wake up folks... God teaches through the mouth of man hence His calling and empowering some with the ability to teach. Same as with the other mentions in Ephesians 4.

So if a man teaches you that is CALLED TO TEACH... is it in fact a man teaching? YES it most clearly is. If he is a called to teach man... it is a GIVEN that it is from the Spirit of God.

Again... do you believe that ALL of the ministry gifts are now nixed?

If you admit that it is all done through the power of the Holy Spirit then we are in agreement!

That is excellent news.

I think that God gives many people gifts. Including the gift of teaching. My particular gifts I know to lie in wisdom and knowledge of the Word. Sometimes I wish I had been given the gift to teach as well but unfortunatly on that I seem to fall short in that area. Perhaps if I have more faith and pray better I will soon be gifted with that as well.

That is also why we are supposed to work together so that our various gifts can support one another. But that's where we have to lay pride aside. If you have a gift in one area, yet lack in another, then seek out one who has the gift you are lacking and use your gifts together in service to God.

This is the time to gather not scatter, and so I am delighted that we finally seemed to have broken through some of our differences here.

Peace be unto you.

RJ Mac
Jul 4th 2008, 02:29 PM
Definition for an apostle - a missionary, envoy, ambassador; in the NT
one of those who, having seen the risen Christ, is a witness of His
resurrection and commissioned by Him, preaches the gospel to all the
nations. (Today there is no man who qualifies for this position.)

The apostolic age is defined as the period from Pentecost to the death of John,
when the church was under the guidance of Paul and the apostles
especially Peter and John.

The above information comes from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.
Now if one demands there to be apostles today, the onus is not on the
ones to show why there are not apostles today, which I believe has been
done through the reasoning of the text.

But the onus is on the ones proclaiming this need to show we have had
apostles all through the centuries, who they were and associated with
which church. For if that claim is true then God has abandoned his church
for the last 2,000 years by leaving her defenseless without apostles, which
were vital in the 1st century, apostles God Himself personally selected,
appeared to and sent on a mission.

I personally believe the apostles fulfilled their mission giving us the
substantiated word the perfect as stated in 1Cor.13:10; and the partial
has has been done away and the need for living apostles was replaced by
the Living Word of God.

I know of only one church, a cult, which claims to have an apostle and
tracks their apostles all the way back through the centuries.

RJ

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 02:37 PM
Definition for an apostle - a missionary, envoy, ambassador; in the NT
one of those who, having seen the risen Christ, is a witness of His
resurrection and commissioned by Him, preaches the gospel to all the
nations. (Today there is no man who qualifies for this position.)

The apostolic age is defined as the period from Pentecost to the death of John,
when the church was under the guidance of Paul and the apostles
especially Peter and John.

The above information comes from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.
Now if one demands there to be apostles today, the onus is not on the
ones to show why there are not apostles today, which I believe has been
done through the reasoning of the text.

But the onus is on the ones proclaiming this need to show we have had
apostles all through the centuries, who they were and associated with
which church. For if that claim is true then God has abandoned his church
for the last 2,000 years by leaving her defenseless without apostles, which
were vital in the 1st century, apostles God Himself personally selected,
appeared to and sent on a mission.

I personally believe the apostles fulfilled their mission giving us the
substantiated word the perfect as stated in 1Cor.13:10; and the partial
has has been done away and the need for living apostles was replaced by
the Living Word of God.

I know of only one church, a cult, which claims to have an apostle and
tracks their apostles all the way back through the centuries.

RJ

Interesting post.

I wonder though how one would read this scripture...

7Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

We know there were apostles in the early rain...and for the latter rain...?

Matthew 19:30 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Matthew+19:30&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Matthew+19&version=9)
But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Brother Mark
Jul 4th 2008, 02:41 PM
Definition for an apostle - a missionary, envoy, ambassador; in the NT
one of those who, having seen the risen Christ, is a witness of His
resurrection and commissioned by Him, preaches the gospel to all the
nations. (Today there is no man who qualifies for this position.)

When did Paul have all these qualifications?


The apostolic age is defined as the period from Pentecost to the death of John,
when the church was under the guidance of Paul and the apostles
especially Peter and John.

I don't see this definition in scripture.


The above information comes from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.
Now if one demands there to be apostles today, the onus is not on the
ones to show why there are not apostles today, which I believe has been
done through the reasoning of the text.

But the onus is on the ones proclaiming this need to show we have had
apostles all through the centuries, who they were and associated with
which church. For if that claim is true then God has abandoned his church
for the last 2,000 years by leaving her defenseless without apostles, which were vital in the 1st century, apostles God Himself personally selected, appeared to and sent on a mission.

Where does scripture define an apostle this way? Or where does scripture teach they have ceased being?

RJ Mac
Jul 4th 2008, 07:02 PM
Mark - In Ac.1:21-26 in replacing Judas, to select one to replace him
they had specific requirements, which two men filled, and casting lots,
a way for God to show them who He chose, it fell with Matthias.

Why not make both of them an apostle if it was an office anyone could
have? Because it was a specific office that not anyone could fill but only
those selected by God. Jesus specifically chose the 12, then specifically
chose Matthias. And he specifically chose Paul and Barnabas, who were
sent specifically by the Holy Spirit. Ac.13:2;

So you are able to submit names of apostles in action today and which
churches they work for?

RJ

Brother Mark
Jul 4th 2008, 07:05 PM
Mark - In Ac.1:21-26 in replacing Judas, to select one to replace him
they had specific requirements, which two men filled, and casting lots,
a way for God to show them who He chose, it fell with Matthias.

Why not make both of them an apostle if it was an office anyone could
have? Because it was a specific office that not anyone could fill but only
those selected by God. Jesus specifically chose the 12, then specifically
chose Matthias. And he specifically chose Paul and Barnabas, who were
sent specifically by the Holy Spirit. Ac.13:2;

I have no issue that God specifically chooses those to be apostles. He does that with all his gifts. Why would apostles be any different? Just as he made Paul one he can make others one as well. So where does it state apostles no longer exist?


So you are able to submit names of apostles in action today and which churches they work for? Yes. I know apostles that work today and what churches they are for. But why would I give their names here where they will be ridiculed and accused? That would not be wise.

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 07:53 PM
I have no issue that God specifically chooses those to be apostles. He does that with all his gifts. Why would apostles be any different? Just as he made Paul one he can make others one as well. So where does it state apostles no longer exist?

Yes. I know apostles that work today and what churches they are for. But why would I give their names here where they will be ridiculed and accused? That would not be wise.

I only know of one church, yet you speak of churches?

How can this be.

Brother Mark
Jul 4th 2008, 07:57 PM
I only know of one church, yet you speak of churches?

How can this be.

Word games again. There was the church at Corinth. The one at Galatia. Of course, they were members of the church as well.

theleast
Jul 4th 2008, 08:00 PM
Zechariah 3:9 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Zechariah+3:9&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Zechariah+3&version=9)
For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

One stone, yet seven eyes.

Perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to judge the purpose of my statements, and let them quicken before jumping to conclusions.

wpm
Jul 5th 2008, 04:37 AM
I believe things probably a little more narrowly than you may.



I believe all of the apostles are dead; died 1900 years ago or so.
(Apostle being specific title used to describe an eye-witness to the risen Lord Jesus)


I believe there are no true prophets today either, because God has given us His Word the Bible, and the Holy Spirit to teach us in all understanding.


There however, are many true evangelists with us today. Those who continue to take the gospel of Christ out into the fields ripe for the harvest, sharing the great commission with all whom they meet.
For me, when someone today says, "I'm an Apostle", or "I'm a Prophet" then immediately loose all credibility with me, and I think to myself, "Charlatan....what are you trying to pull? What's your angle here, and who are you going to mislead?"

False prophets never negate the reality and existence of the genuine. Scripture must speak here on this matter. There is explicit Scripture and corroboration to prove the continued existence of the office. It will terminate with Christ's climactic return, when such an office will be irrelevant. Until then it is an active part of the true Church.

The false Gospel does not negate the true - similar with the true prophet. Read Church history and see the reality of this necessary gift.

Ephesians 4:11-13 says, “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets (propetes or foreteller); and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers”

PURPOSE

“FOR the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ”

DURATION

“TILL we all come in the ‘unity’ (oneness) of the faith, and of the ‘knowledge’ (full discernment) of the Son of God, unto ‘a man (andra) perfect (teleion)’, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.”

We are not there yet. This five-fold-ministry terminates at the final future all-consummating Coming of Christ!!! It is only then that the bondage of corruption is finally eliminated.

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 says, “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies propheteia (or foretelling Strong’s 4394), they shall fail (katargeo or ‘be done away’); whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away (katargeo or ‘be done away’). For we know in part, and we prophesy propheteuo (or foretelling Strong’s 4395),in part. But when (teleios) that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away (katargeo). When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

The Greek word teleios (Strong’s 5046) which comes from the Greek word telos (Strong’s 5046), which we are very familiar with meaning ‘the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically, an impost or levy (as paid)’. It is speaking about the end - the consummation. In fact, the all-consummating Coming of Christ.

At this final event prophecies, tongues and knowledge (I believe this is speaking of the gift of knowledge as we will always have knowledge in eternity) it shall all vanish away. Why? We don’t need prophecies, tongues and supernatural knowledge anymore as we will have full understanding being perfect. However, “Charity never faileth.” A billion years into eternity we will still need love. We will love Christ throughout eternity. Love will never cease.!!!

Paul

theleast
Jul 5th 2008, 12:34 PM
I believe things probably a little more narrowly than you may.



I believe all of the apostles are dead; died 1900 years ago or so.
(Apostle being specific title used to describe an eye-witness to the risen Lord Jesus)


I believe there are no true prophets today either, because God has given us His Word the Bible, and the Holy Spirit to teach us in all understanding.


There however, are many true evangelists with us today. Those who continue to take the gospel of Christ out into the fields ripe for the harvest, sharing the great commission with all whom they meet.

For me, when someone today says, "I'm an Apostle", or "I'm a Prophet" then immediately loose all credibility with me, and I think to myself, "Charlatan....what are you trying to pull? What's your angle here, and who are you going to mislead?"

I don't really agree with you there, for the scripture says...

27And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

So just before the tribulation all the prophets and apostles return.

Would you say the two witnesses foretold in revelation aren't prophets?

And what of this?...

James 5:7 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=James+5:7&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=James+5&version=9)
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

The later rain is at hand my friend. :pp

theleast
Jul 5th 2008, 12:44 PM
Joel 2:23 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Joel+2:23&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Joel+2&version=9)
Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

Amos 4:7 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Amos+4:7&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Amos+4&version=9)
And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered.

ProjectPeter
Jul 5th 2008, 01:42 PM
If you admit that it is all done through the power of the Holy Spirit then we are in agreement!

That is excellent news.

I think that God gives many people gifts. Including the gift of teaching. My particular gifts I know to lie in wisdom and knowledge of the Word. Sometimes I wish I had been given the gift to teach as well but unfortunatly on that I seem to fall short in that area. Perhaps if I have more faith and pray better I will soon be gifted with that as well.

That is also why we are supposed to work together so that our various gifts can support one another. But that's where we have to lay pride aside. If you have a gift in one area, yet lack in another, then seek out one who has the gift you are lacking and use your gifts together in service to God.

This is the time to gather not scatter, and so I am delighted that we finally seemed to have broken through some of our differences here.

Peace be unto you.
Thing is, like many instances, you will find that there weren't differences as much as there was just religious speak. An example... I say to a person (and this happens all of the time)... "I hope to save ten people tomorrow." The person makes sure to go on for ten post saying "but you can't save anyone... only God can save them." Now... never do I think that I am going to be the person that "saves" them although I am going to be the person that brings the message of salvation to them and my hope is that ten are saved through that message. But then comes the next ten post... "But your message can't save them. Only God can save them." Now I respond back... of course my message (as if I had a message of my own) can't save them but the message of God's gospel can save them although they will hear the message spoken through my mouth. Then another few post on how I can't speak that message save the Spirit speaking through me... etc. etc.

Here is the straight skinny devoid of all the religious speak. I will preach tomorrow and I hope that I can save some. And if folks want to major on the minors then do so cautiously because I can show that exact same language in the letters of Paul. NATURALLY it is by the very gifting of the Lord. NATURALLY it is through the gifting and power of the Spirit of God. NATURALLY it is the Spirit convicting them of sin and not me. NATURALLY................... fill in with all the religious speak. Just like naturally it is the Spirit working through the MAN THAT TEACHES. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jul 5th 2008, 01:45 PM
I only know of one church, yet you speak of churches?

How can this be.
Goodness... this post right here is a PERFECT example of what I just spoke of!

ProjectPeter
Jul 5th 2008, 01:47 PM
False prophets never negate the reality and existence of the genuine. Scripture must speak here on this matter. There is explicit Scripture and corroboration to prove the continued existence of the office. It will terminate with Christ's climactic return, when such an office will be irrelevant. Until then it is an active part of the true Church.

The false Gospel does not negate the true - similar with the true prophet. Read Church history and see the reality of this necessary gift.

Ephesians 4:11-13 says, “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets (propetes or foreteller); and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers”

PURPOSE

“FOR the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ”

DURATION

“TILL we all come in the ‘unity’ (oneness) of the faith, and of the ‘knowledge’ (full discernment) of the Son of God, unto ‘a man (andra) perfect (teleion)’, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.”

We are not there yet. This five-fold-ministry terminates at the final future all-consummating Coming of Christ!!! It is only then that the bondage of corruption is finally eliminated.

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 says, “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies propheteia (or foretelling Strong’s 4394), they shall fail (katargeo or ‘be done away’); whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away (katargeo or ‘be done away’). For we know in part, and we prophesy propheteuo (or foretelling Strong’s 4395),in part. But when (teleios) that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away (katargeo). When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

The Greek word teleios (Strong’s 5046) which comes from the Greek word telos (Strong’s 5046), which we are very familiar with meaning ‘the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically, an impost or levy (as paid)’. It is speaking about the end - the consummation. In fact, the all-consummating Coming of Christ.

At this final event prophecies, tongues and knowledge (I believe this is speaking of the gift of knowledge as we will always have knowledge in eternity) it shall all vanish away. Why? We don’t need prophecies, tongues and supernatural knowledge anymore as we will have full understanding being perfect. However, “Charity never faileth.” A billion years into eternity we will still need love. We will love Christ throughout eternity. Love will never cease.!!!

PaulNow here we go... TOTALLY agreeing with other! :lol: It's going to be a good day!

ProjectPeter
Jul 5th 2008, 01:49 PM
Joel 2:23 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Joel+2:23&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Joel+2&version=9)
Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

Amos 4:7 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Amos+4:7&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Amos+4&version=9)
And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered.
I am near afraid to ask... but what do you think of the "latter rain" as spoken in that passage and in context with this discussion?

theleast
Jul 5th 2008, 02:03 PM
I am near afraid to ask... but what do you think of the "latter rain" as spoken in that passage and in context with this discussion?

I know of what it is that I speak.

What do you think the rain is? What is the living water that was spoken of by Christ?

Amos 4:7 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Amos+4:7&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Amos+4&version=9)
And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered.

How does a city wither? It is not a plant.

I'm sure I will be accused of using "religious speak" here.

ProjectPeter
Jul 5th 2008, 02:31 PM
If you answer the question straight up then there is no religious speak. ;)

theleast
Jul 5th 2008, 02:35 PM
Did Christ speak straight up or in parables?

Did Christ use "religious speak"?

He is my example.

timmyb
Jul 5th 2008, 03:02 PM
The reason we won't accept apostles and prophets is

one it doesn't go with our tradition of pastors teachers and evangelists...
two, we have seen too many false apostles and prophets that we have become offended and out of our offense at seeing too many false prophets we create the doctrine that God has done away with the ministry of the apostle and prophet and thereby we conclude that everyone who operates in the ministry of the apostle or prophet is thereby false because of their being
three, we have been trained to doubt anything so we are critical of each other and we doubt everything based off of past offenses. When someone comes seeking to restore this ministry he is grilled by the church instead of supported by the church.

We stone our prophets because that's what the enemy wants. We want apostles and prophets, but we don't want anybody becoming apostles and prophets... as long as it's us it's ok... but don't let these whack jobs become prophets... we don't trust each other because we are more inclined to look for the bad in something instead of the good

and as long as we judge someone based on the bad, we will never have apostles and prophets

ProjectPeter
Jul 5th 2008, 03:48 PM
Did Christ speak straight up or in parables?

Did Christ use "religious speak"?

He is my example.
When you are Christ and told to speak in parables to all men then you might well be onto something. You aren't though therefore no need to speak in parables. And no... parables are not "religious speak" and actually quite far from it. Parables taught a point. religious speak... it teaches nothing and means whatever but who knows other than the speaker of the religious speak.

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 5th 2008, 03:50 PM
Do you think God has the same ability to reveal Himself to a person as He did in the first century? ie.. Saul and his Damascus road conversion? He has not changed..

I dont think God has changed one bit.. He is still in the business of taking sinners and changing them 100 percent.. transforming them as He did Paul.. teaching them and sending them out with the message of Christ Crucified.. as He did with Paul..... that is the ONLY FOUNDATION .. and it has not changed thru time.. although man in his theology and wisdom has tried to change it or make it null and void, but it is the MESSAGE... and it is the POWER OF GOD..

The problem lies in what you define as the 'church'... is it a huge religous organization characterized by divisions found within brick and stone? Many have been indoctrinated with thier own groups 'theology' and what it means... Many believe their way is the only way.. But Jesus said.. He is the Way the Truth and the Life.. One does not have to go very far to see that in full form.. His true church lies within in the hearts of His children... bought by His blood.. empowered by His Spirit...

Within that 'body' He still uses and incorporates His offices He is the Head over...

DadBurnett
Jul 6th 2008, 05:12 AM
I know of what it is that I speak.

What do you think the rain is? What is the living water that was spoken of by Christ?

Amos 4:7 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Amos+4:7&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Amos+4&version=9)
And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered.

How does a city wither? It is not a plant.

I'm sure I will be accused of using "religious speak" here.


I have reread the passages and the first two chapters of Joel again in The Jewish Study Bible, JPS TANAKA translation, in an attempt to better understand your reasoning for using these OT references.
In trying to put things into the context of the subject matter and examples, the illustrations used in what the Lord actually said to Joel, I find there is an almost overwhelming context of physical things like plagues, locusts, crop destruction, crop failures and the despair of the farmers and the people for the lack of crops – food. The causes alluded to include the lack or lateness of rain … real rain.
The TANAKA commentary states that verse 2:23 indicates that the Lord has seen fit to bless them with rain (“moreh”) and recognizes that it is the Lord that causes the rain [“moreh”]to fall – early or late; it is the Lord that causes abundant harvests …
However, in reading the TANAKH commentary I do see that some, like those of the community at Qumran also translated the word “moreh” as “teacher” – using it to support their belief in the “teacher of righteousness”.
Enen with that in mind, I fail to grasp how either reference is relevant to a discussion of there being, or not being, apostles and prophets. What am I missing?
In your earlier post you also referred us to Amos. I have also read and reread Amos chapter 4 (TANAKH} and can find no sense of rain being anything other than rain. It seems to me that if we make MUST make rain into something else, we must also consider the other “things” mentioned along with rain into some other things … I’m not sure how to do that …
Based simply on those verses it seems to me that the “Living waters” spin is quote a stretch … and how does living waters tie into the question about apostles and prophets, the subject of those thread? Please help me understand …

Slug1
Jul 6th 2008, 12:36 PM
The reason we won't accept apostles and prophets is

one it doesn't go with our tradition of pastors teachers and evangelists...

This is a point that many fall into... "OUR" traditions. That's so true and once people begin to get back into God's truth and away from man's truth then more and more people will experience God. This is how I see it, we (man) have faith in God, we praise God, we worship God, we do what we feel is producing fruit for God (ministry's for example) but when God wants to talk to us, we put up the "One Way" sign and don't let Him. Or we hear it but don't trust it's God.

Just this week I have received three messages from God, one through our anointed prophet in our church and a second from a man of God that is a friend of mine. Once he told me the short message I was balling (quietly as he talked :saint:) as it was so spot on with what God has us doing right now and supported the Word I received through our prophet... it was a Word to remind me of the importance of the task He's put me, my wife and some friends on. I have also received a direct Word from God that came through after I prayed on the Word I received passed on by our prophet and God had me write (He always has me write) out allot of additional details... instructions for the ministry God has given us.


two, we have seen too many false apostles and prophets that we have become offended and out of our offense at seeing too many false prophets we create the doctrine that God has done away with the ministry of the apostle and prophet and thereby we conclude that everyone who operates in the ministry of the apostle or prophet is thereby false because of their being Which is the sole purpose satan has for causing what this thread is all about. Putting doubt in God, to limit God, and to cause us not to trust God. Imagine if we allowed our relationship with God to be a two-way street. Where we allowed Him to speak to us through those who He chose to speak to us. More then just those feelings we get when He's comforting us, or we see the results of a prayer and realize it was answered, or when we get the rare Word directly and understanding seems to be downloaded directly into our head or (in my case) write it all out and then go back to read it to see what was said.


three, we have been trained to doubt anything so we are critical of each other and we doubt everything based off of past offenses. When someone comes seeking to restore this ministry he is grilled by the church instead of supported by the church.Which again, is exactly what satan has acheived and is maintaining by putting so many false prophets out in the world.


We stone our prophets because that's what the enemy wants. We want apostles and prophets, but we don't want anybody becoming apostles and prophets... as long as it's us it's ok... but don't let these whack jobs become prophets... we don't trust each other because we are more inclined to look for the bad in something instead of the good

and as long as we judge someone based on the bad, we will never have apostles and prophetsGood point. We really don't want anointed apostles and prophets cause their job is usually to tell us how screwed up we are and NO ONE wants to hear that they're screwed up. Even if they do hear it, then they REALLY don't want to do anything to fix it cause then they might have to pop their comfort bubble they put up around themselves in their one-way relationship with God. In the meantime God is using anointed people to pop these comfort bubbles and many are doing everything they can to seal all the holes and keep themselves in the comfort they want... the easiest way to seal up the bubble is to persecute the messenger.

Since the messaenger has done his job and passed on the info that God gave them, since it fell on resistant or straightup deaf ears, he moves on... basically dusting the dust off their shoes and goes to the next place God sends them. It's up to us to listen and discerne casue there are many false people out their, but that DOES NOT mean there AREN'T true ones (those that are anointed) out there also.

manichunter
Jul 9th 2008, 05:51 PM
This is a point that many fall into... "OUR" traditions. That's so true and once people begin to get back into God's truth and away from man's truth then more and more people will experience God. This is how I see it, we (man) have faith in God, we praise God, we worship God, we do what we feel is producing fruit for God (ministry's for example) but when God wants to talk to us, we put up the "One Way" sign and don't let Him. Or we hear it but don't trust it's God.

Just this week I have received three messages from God, one through our anointed prophet in our church and a second from a man of God that is a friend of mine. Once he told me the short message I was balling (quietly as he talked :saint:) as it was so spot on with what God has us doing right now and supported the Word I received through our prophet... it was a Word to remind me of the importance of the task He's put me, my wife and some friends on. I have also received a direct Word from God that came through after I prayed on the Word I received passed on by our prophet and God had me write (He always has me write) out allot of additional details... instructions for the ministry God has given us.

Which is the sole purpose satan has for causing what this thread is all about. Putting doubt in God, to limit God, and to cause us not to trust God. Imagine if we allowed our relationship with God to be a two-way street. Where we allowed Him to speak to us through those who He chose to speak to us. More then just those feelings we get when He's comforting us, or we see the results of a prayer and realize it was answered, or when we get the rare Word directly and understanding seems to be downloaded directly into our head or (in my case) write it all out and then go back to read it to see what was said.

Which again, is exactly what satan has acheived and is maintaining by putting so many false prophets out in the world.

Good point. We really don't want anointed apostles and prophets cause their job is usually to tell us how screwed up we are and NO ONE wants to hear that they're screwed up. Even if they do hear it, then they REALLY don't want to do anything to fix it cause then they might have to pop their comfort bubble they put up around themselves in their one-way relationship with God. In the meantime God is using anointed people to pop these comfort bubbles and many are doing everything they can to seal all the holes and keep themselves in the comfort they want... the easiest way to seal up the bubble is to persecute the messenger.

Since the messaenger has done his job and passed on the info that God gave them, since it fell on resistant or straightup deaf ears, he moves on... basically dusting the dust off their shoes and goes to the next place God sends them. It's up to us to listen and discerne casue there are many false people out their, but that DOES NOT mean there AREN'T true ones (those that are anointed) out there also.

I was wondering the same myself. Are some of the real prophets scared to stand up to tradition and established institutions.

Slug1
Jul 9th 2008, 08:12 PM
I was wondering the same myself. Are some of the real prophets scared to stand up to tradition and established institutions.Scared... absolutely not.

theleast
Jul 9th 2008, 09:09 PM
I have reread the passages and the first two chapters of Joel again in The Jewish Study Bible, JPS TANAKA translation, in an attempt to better understand your reasoning for using these OT references.
In trying to put things into the context of the subject matter and examples, the illustrations used in what the Lord actually said to Joel, I find there is an almost overwhelming context of physical things like plagues, locusts, crop destruction, crop failures and the despair of the farmers and the people for the lack of crops – food. The causes alluded to include the lack or lateness of rain … real rain.
The TANAKA commentary states that verse 2:23 indicates that the Lord has seen fit to bless them with rain (“moreh”) and recognizes that it is the Lord that causes the rain [“moreh”]to fall – early or late; it is the Lord that causes abundant harvests …
However, in reading the TANAKH commentary I do see that some, like those of the community at Qumran also translated the word “moreh” as “teacher” – using it to support their belief in the “teacher of righteousness”.
Enen with that in mind, I fail to grasp how either reference is relevant to a discussion of there being, or not being, apostles and prophets. What am I missing?
In your earlier post you also referred us to Amos. I have also read and reread Amos chapter 4 (TANAKH} and can find no sense of rain being anything other than rain. It seems to me that if we make MUST make rain into something else, we must also consider the other “things” mentioned along with rain into some other things … I’m not sure how to do that …
Based simply on those verses it seems to me that the “Living waters” spin is quote a stretch … and how does living waters tie into the question about apostles and prophets, the subject of those thread? Please help me understand …

Rain is symbolic of the Holy Spirit.

7And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered.

8So two or three cities wandered unto one city, to drink water; but they were not satisfied: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. 9I have smitten you with blasting and mildew: when your gardens and your vineyards and your fig trees and your olive trees increased, the palmerworm devoured them: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

That is part of the reason I have the other thread going about the vineyard, the fig tree and the olive trees. The Holy Spirit ties into the vineyard, the fig tree and the olive trees, as well, I'm sure I don't need to tell you that.

Waters are often symbolic of the Spirit in scripture.

ShirleyFord
Jul 10th 2008, 02:28 PM
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

2 Pet 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

BroRog
Jul 10th 2008, 02:39 PM
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

2 Pet 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

As Paul says, the church is built on the foundations of the Apostles and prophets. The foundation has been laid. No need to keep working on the foundation.

manichunter
Jul 11th 2008, 03:40 AM
Scared... absolutely not.

I only this because some Old Testament Prophets did exhibit fear at times. I figure it would be even more scaring today to stand up. You might not face death in most countries, but you will face condemnation and denouncment sometimes............

manichunter
Jul 11th 2008, 03:46 AM
As Paul says, the church is built on the foundations of the Apostles and prophets. The foundation has been laid. No need to keep working on the foundation.


Eph 2
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Paul did not speak in a command sense as if to say that this would be the last of the line of apostles. This is an insinuation built from this text that does not even deal with the subject matter regarding the ending of the apostles and prophets. This subject regards the enclusion of the gentiles into the body of christ who had the gospel introduced to them by the apostles and prophets. To say what you are insinuating is to take the message out of content with the whole chapter........ The whole chapter is about the enclusion of gentiles into a Jewish initiated movement.

Slug1
Jul 11th 2008, 04:57 AM
I only this because some Old Testament Prophets did exhibit fear at times. I figure it would be even more scaring today to stand up. You might not face death in most countries, but you will face condemnation and denouncment sometimes............This condemnation is spurred on by satan causing people to NOT WANT their comfort bubble popped, . As I said, the easiest way to keep the comfort and that nice feeling of having a 1-way relationship with God is to silence the messanger, telling people what's wrong and why God is trying to open a 2-way relationship. This 2-way relationship requires change and people DON'T LIKE change cause that means no comfort... it requires flesh crucification, requires shedding of any pride, requires listening to God instead of a man on the pulpit doing all those great part 1-4 sermons pulled out of a book that includes a little bit of scripture, requires services led by the Holy Spirit and if that means instead of 1 hours (on the dot) services it means 2-3 hours services cause God has allot to say, it requires laying on of hands, it requires delivering people during a service, it requires stopping and listening to a person bringing forth a Word from God and allowing the bubbles to be popped, etc.

God is popping comfort bubbles through His apostles, prophets, and many other men and woman of God... but people just want to feel good, be happy with what "they" want to do for God and live this way from the rest of their lives. Someday when they hear the words "I do not know you" that bubble isn't gonna protect them from the heat.

manichunter
Jul 13th 2008, 12:31 AM
This condemnation is spurred on by satan causing people to NOT WANT their comfort bubble popped, . As I said, the easiest way to keep the comfort and that nice feeling of having a 1-way relationship with God is to silence the messanger, telling people what's wrong and why God is trying to open a 2-way relationship. This 2-way relationship requires change and people DON'T LIKE change cause that means no comfort... it requires flesh crucification, requires shedding of any pride, requires listening to God instead of a man on the pulpit doing all those great part 1-4 sermons pulled out of a book that includes a little bit of scripture, requires services led by the Holy Spirit and if that means instead of 1 hours (on the dot) services it means 2-3 hours services cause God has allot to say, it requires laying on of hands, it requires delivering people during a service, it requires stopping and listening to a person bringing forth a Word from God and allowing the bubbles to be popped, etc.

God is popping comfort bubbles through His apostles, prophets, and many other men and woman of God... but people just want to feel good, be happy with what "they" want to do for God and live this way from the rest of their lives. Someday when they hear the words "I do not know you" that bubble isn't gonna protect them from the heat.

i agree a whole lot

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 13th 2008, 03:32 AM
This condemnation is spurred on by satan causing people to NOT WANT their comfort bubble popped, . As I said, the easiest way to keep the comfort and that nice feeling of having a 1-way relationship with God is to silence the messanger, telling people what's wrong and why God is trying to open a 2-way relationship. This 2-way relationship requires change and people DON'T LIKE change cause that means no comfort... it requires flesh crucification, requires shedding of any pride, requires listening to God instead of a man on the pulpit doing all those great part 1-4 sermons pulled out of a book that includes a little bit of scripture, requires services led by the Holy Spirit and if that means instead of 1 hours (on the dot) services it means 2-3 hours services cause God has allot to say, it requires laying on of hands, it requires delivering people during a service, it requires stopping and listening to a person bringing forth a Word from God and allowing the bubbles to be popped, etc.

God is popping comfort bubbles through His apostles, prophets, and many other men and woman of God... but people just want to feel good, be happy with what "they" want to do for God and live this way from the rest of their lives. Someday when they hear the words "I do not know you" that bubble isn't gonna protect them from the heat.

I will second that! What's the address again? ;)

Michael

timmyb
Jul 13th 2008, 02:45 PM
As Paul says, the church is built on the foundations of the Apostles and prophets. The foundation has been laid. No need to keep working on the foundation.

the foundation still needs work... till we come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of a perfect man... we need apostles and prophets ALIVE today working to the maturity of the church... the fact that we are having this discussion only proves the church's need for apostles and prophets...