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Liv
Jul 6th 2008, 07:33 PM
I always thought that unsaved people would go to Hell for eternity and suffer everlasting punishment. I have heard pastors say things like that. So I thought that Hell and the Devil would be around for eternity. I know that the Devil will have no power over the people who have been saved and are living on the New Earth, but I thought that he would continue to reign in Hell over those who did not accept Christ.

My husband, who has read Revalation several times (I have never read the whole thing all the way through) told me that when Christ comes back he's going to destroy both the Devil and Hell. He said that if he didn't, it would mean that God has no power over the Devil and my husband would have no reason to put his faith in him. When I told him that I thought God demonstrated his power by saving those who trust in him but that I didn't think he was going to destroy Hell, my husband said my theology is seriously messed up.

Help! Can someone please give me some direction here? Have I really misunderstood everything I thought I knew about Hell and eternity?

Naphal
Jul 6th 2008, 08:42 PM
I always thought that unsaved people would go to Hell for eternity and suffer everlasting punishment. I have heard pastors say things like that. So I thought that Hell and the Devil would be around for eternity. I know that the Devil will have no power over the people who have been saved and are living on the New Earth, but I thought that he would continue to reign in Hell over those who did not accept Christ.

My husband, who has read Revalation several times (I have never read the whole thing all the way through) told me that when Christ comes back he's going to destroy both the Devil and Hell. He said that if he didn't, it would mean that God has no power over the Devil and my husband would have no reason to put his faith in him. When I told him that I thought God demonstrated his power by saving those who trust in him but that I didn't think he was going to destroy Hell, my husband said my theology is seriously messed up.

Help! Can someone please give me some direction here? Have I really misunderstood everything I thought I knew about Hell and eternity?


Hell is a place holding the dead also known as the grave but it's a spiritual place not holes in the ground. It is often confused with the lake of fire which people call "hell" but technically the first hell shall be cast into the lake of fire and destroyed along with the devil and those not written in the book of life.


Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Death itself dies which simply means the concept of death will no longer exist.

mikebr
Jul 6th 2008, 09:09 PM
but I thought that he would continue to reign in Hell over those who did not accept Christ.

Do you believe that more people will go to heaven or hell?

If we can believe stats only about 5 to 10% of all people who ever lived are or were born again Christians. If that's true and 50 billion people have lived on earth since creation, then over 40 billion people will be in hell. If Satan reigns over this majority then he will rule over more that God. The bible clearly says three times that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.

Satan will rule over nothing and hell will be destroyed. Both are biblical.

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 6th 2008, 09:23 PM
Hell is a place holding the dead also known as the grave but it's a spiritual place not holes in the ground. It is often confused with the lake of fire which people call "hell" but technically the first hell shall be cast into the lake of fire and destroyed along with the devil and those not written in the book of life.


Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Death itself dies which simply means the concept of death will no longer exist.


I agreee.... well stated..

davidandme
Jul 6th 2008, 11:51 PM
I always thought that unsaved people would go to Hell for eternity and suffer everlasting punishment. I have heard pastors say things like that. So I thought that Hell and the Devil would be around for eternity. I know that the Devil will have no power over the people who have been saved and are living on the New Earth, but I thought that he would continue to reign in Hell over those who did not accept Christ.

My husband, who has read Revalation several times (I have never read the whole thing all the way through) told me that when Christ comes back he's going to destroy both the Devil and Hell. He said that if he didn't, it would mean that God has no power over the Devil and my husband would have no reason to put his faith in him. When I told him that I thought God demonstrated his power by saving those who trust in him but that I didn't think he was going to destroy Hell, my husband said my theology is seriously messed up.

Help! Can someone please give me some direction here? Have I really misunderstood everything I thought I knew about Hell and eternity?
The major missunderstanding with the topic of hell is the word forever and eternal. Let's see what does the Bible means by these words.

In Scripture, "for ever" is often used in conjunction with an event that has already taken place.
For instance, Hannah pledged to God that she would take her infant son Samuel to serve in the temple at Shiloh, where he would abide "for ever" (1 Samuel 1:22). No student of the Bible would take this to mean that he would remain in that temple for as long as time should last. Hannah herself interpreted the statement as meaning that Samuel would serve in the temple for "as long as he liveth" (verse 28).
Jonah stated that he was in the belly of the fish "for ever" (Jonah 2:6), but we know that he endured his eerie journey beneath the sea for "three days and three nights" (Jonah 1:17).
More than 50 times the Bible uses "for ever" to mean "for as long as time lasts in that specific case." The term is used colloquially today to describe a downpour or a hot summer's afternoon (or a sermon!) that "went on forever."
Death, Not Eternal Torment
The Bible tells us that "the wages of sin is" not eternal life in hellfire, but "death" (Romans 6:23), the same penalty God assured Adam and Eve would be theirs if they ate the forbidden fruit.
Ezekiel states clearly that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4), and a plethora of other Bible verses and passages endorse this position. The prophet Malachi wrote that sinners would burn up as "stubble" and would become "ashes under the soles" of the feet of the redeemed (Malachi 4:1, 3). Even the final fate of Satan is explicitly pronounced in Ezekiel 28:18, where the Bible says that the enemy of souls will be reduced to ashes upon the "earth." Compare that with Psalm 37:10 ("For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be"), Psalm 68:2 ("as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God"), and other similar verses. Soon you get a clear picture that the purpose of the fires of hell is to eradicate sin and to expunge the universe of its awful presence.
Interestingly, it was the devil who was first to suggest that sinners would not die (Genesis 3:4). A hell where sinners never perish would prove the devil right and would make God, who told Eve she would "surely die" as a result of transgression (Genesis 2:17),
In Scripture, "for ever" is often used in conjunction with an event that has already taken place.
For instance, Hannah pledged to God that she would take her infant son Samuel to serve in the temple at Shiloh, where he would abide "for ever" (1 Samuel 1:22). No student of the Bible would take this to mean that he would remain in that temple for as long as time should last. Hannah herself interpreted the statement as meaning that Samuel would serve in the temple for "as long as he liveth" (verse 28).
Jonah stated that he was in the belly of the fish "for ever" (Jonah 2:6), but we know that he endured his eerie journey beneath the sea for "three days and three nights" (Jonah 1:17).
More than 50 times the Bible uses "for ever" to mean "for as long as time lasts in that specific case." The term is used colloquially today to describe a downpour or a hot summer's afternoon (or a sermon!) that "went on forever."
Death, Not Eternal Torment
The Bible tells us that "the wages of sin is" not eternal life in hellfire, but "death" (Romans 6:23), the same penalty God assured Adam and Eve would be theirs if they ate the forbidden fruit.
Ezekiel states clearly that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4), and a plethora of other Bible verses and passages endorse this position. The prophet Malachi wrote that sinners would burn up as "stubble" and would become "ashes under the soles" of the feet of the redeemed (Malachi 4:1, 3). Even the final fate of Satan is explicitly pronounced in Ezekiel 28:18, where the Bible says that the enemy of souls will be reduced to ashes upon the "earth." Compare that with Psalm 37:10 ("For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be"), Psalm 68:2 ("as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God"), and other similar verses. Soon you get a clear picture that the purpose of the fires of hell is to eradicate sin and to expunge the universe of its awful presence.
In Scripture, "for ever" is often used in conjunction with an event that has already taken place.
For instance, Hannah pledged to God that she would take her infant son Samuel to serve in the temple at Shiloh, where he would abide "for ever" (1 Samuel 1:22). No student of the Bible would take this to mean that he would remain in that temple for as long as time should last. Hannah herself interpreted the statement as meaning that Samuel would serve in the temple for "as long as he liveth" (verse 28).
Jonah stated that he was in the belly of the fish "for ever" (Jonah 2:6), but we know that he endured his eerie journey beneath the sea for "three days and three nights" (Jonah 1:17).
More than 50 times the Bible uses "for ever" to mean "for as long as time lasts in that specific case." The term is used colloquially today to describe a downpour or a hot summer's afternoon (or a sermon!) that "went on forever."
Death, Not Eternal Torment
The Bible tells us that "the wages of sin is" not eternal life in hellfire, but "death" (Romans 6:23), the same penalty God assured Adam and Eve would be theirs if they ate the forbidden fruit.
Ezekiel states clearly that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4), and a plethora of other Bible verses and passages endorse this position. The prophet Malachi wrote that sinners would burn up as "stubble" and would become "ashes under the soles" of the feet of the redeemed (Malachi 4:1, 3). Even the final fate of Satan is explicitly pronounced in Ezekiel 28:18, where the Bible says that the enemy of souls will be reduced to ashes upon the "earth." Compare that with Psalm 37:10 ("For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be"), Psalm 68:2 ("as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God"), and other similar verses. Soon you get a clear picture that the purpose of the fires of hell is to eradicate sin and to expunge the universe of its awful presence.

Please read Jude 1:7 God is not speaking about a fire that will burn forever. He is speaking about a fire that have eternal consequences.


So the bottom line is that hell will not burn forever. God bless.

Joe King
Jul 6th 2008, 11:54 PM
Please read Jude 1:7 God is not speaking about a fire that will burn forever. He is speaking about a fire that have eternal consequences.


So the bottom line is that hell will not burn forever. God bless.

I really hope so because that would be horrible if they just burned up for eternity!

mikebr
Jul 6th 2008, 11:59 PM
I really hope so because that would be horrible if they just burned up for eternity!


Its sad Joe but not all Christians feel that way.

davidandme
Jul 7th 2008, 12:13 AM
:pp
I really hope so because that would be horrible if they just burned up for eternity!
I agree. Eternal hell is not consistent with the love of God.

davidandme
Jul 7th 2008, 12:15 AM
Hell is a place holding the dead also known as the grave but it's a spiritual place not holes in the ground. It is often confused with the lake of fire which people call "hell" but technically the first hell shall be cast into the lake of fire and destroyed along with the devil and those not written in the book of life.


Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Death itself dies which simply means the concept of death will no longer exist.
I totally agree. God bless. I, sure don't want to end up there!

immortality
Jul 7th 2008, 12:18 AM
will hell be destroyed?
hell will never be destroyed. it is as eternal as heaven, and so will its torments be. it's very disturbing, and i don't wish to think such a frightening reality could exist, but it's what scripture teaches. to say that it will be destroyed, or that hell is not eternal, is not biblical.

"For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves." (col 1:13)

hell is satan's eternal dominion.

mikebr
Jul 7th 2008, 12:31 AM
hell will never be destroyed. it is as eternal as heaven, and so will its torments be. it's very disturbing, and i don't wish to think such a frightening reality could exist, but it's what scripture teaches. to say that it will be destroyed, or that hell is not eternal, is not biblical.

"For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves." (col 1:13)

hell is satan's eternal dominion.



Can you prove any of this biblically? It seems to me that this is more a cultural understanding than a biblical one.

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." If hell will not be destroyed by the lake of fire then neither will death. :hmm:

We need a better understanding of the word "hell."

immortality
Jul 7th 2008, 12:48 AM
Can you prove any of this biblically? It seems to me that this is more a cultural understanding than a biblical one.

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." If hell will not be destroyed by the lake of fire then neither will death. :hmm:

We need a better understanding of the word "hell."
i believe this is indeed more of a cultural understanding than a biblical one. humans do not want to accept the hard truth that there is a place of eternal torment, so instead they produce human doctrine based upon their own denial.

as for scriptures, i think the bible is quite clear on this subject:

Matt 25:41: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Mark 9:43-48: "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched."

satan is not going to be utterly destroyed and annihilated - he would be glad if that were the case. instead, scripture says he will be tormented for all eternity in the fire that shall never be quenched, and where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. so will be the dire fate of all those who are not saved through jesus christ.

davidandme
Jul 7th 2008, 01:00 AM
i believe this is indeed more of a cultural understanding than a biblical one. humans do not want to accept the hard truth that there is a place of eternal torment, so instead they produce human doctrine based upon their own denial.

as for scriptures, i think the bible is quite clear on this subject:

Matt 25:41: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Mark 9:43-48: "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched."

satan is not going to be utterly destroyed and annihilated - he would be glad if that were the case. instead, scripture says he will be tormented for all eternity in the fire that shall never be quenched, and where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. so will be the dire fate of all those who are not saved through jesus christ.

The major missunderstanding with the topic of hell is the word forever and eternal. Let's see what does the Bible means by these words.

In Scripture, "for ever" is often used in conjunction with an event that has already taken place.
For instance, Hannah pledged to God that she would take her infant son Samuel to serve in the temple at Shiloh, where he would abide "for ever" (1 Samuel 1:22). No student of the Bible would take this to mean that he would remain in that temple for as long as time should last. Hannah herself interpreted the statement as meaning that Samuel would serve in the temple for "as long as he liveth" (verse 28).
Jonah stated that he was in the belly of the fish "for ever" (Jonah 2:6), but we know that he endured his eerie journey beneath the sea for "three days and three nights" (Jonah 1:17).
More than 50 times the Bible uses "for ever" to mean "for as long as time lasts in that specific case." The term is used colloquially today to describe a downpour or a hot summer's afternoon (or a sermon!) that "went on forever."
Death, Not Eternal Torment
The Bible tells us that "the wages of sin is" not eternal life in hellfire, but "death" (Romans 6:23), the same penalty God assured Adam and Eve would be theirs if they ate the forbidden fruit.
Ezekiel states clearly that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4), and a plethora of other Bible verses and passages endorse this position. The prophet Malachi wrote that sinners would burn up as "stubble" and would become "ashes under the soles" of the feet of the redeemed (Malachi 4:1, 3). Even the final fate of Satan is explicitly pronounced in Ezekiel 28:18, where the Bible says that the enemy of souls will be reduced to ashes upon the "earth." Compare that with Psalm 37:10 ("For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be"), Psalm 68:2 ("as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God"), and other similar verses. Soon you get a clear picture that the purpose of the fires of hell is to eradicate sin and to expunge the universe of its awful presence.
Interestingly, it was the devil who was first to suggest that sinners would not die (Genesis 3:4). A hell where sinners never perish would prove the devil right and would make God, who told Eve she would "surely die" as a result of transgression (Genesis 2:17),
In Scripture, "for ever" is often used in conjunction with an event that has already taken place.
For instance, Hannah pledged to God that she would take her infant son Samuel to serve in the temple at Shiloh, where he would abide "for ever" (1 Samuel 1:22). No student of the Bible would take this to mean that he would remain in that temple for as long as time should last. Hannah herself interpreted the statement as meaning that Samuel would serve in the temple for "as long as he liveth" (verse 28).
Jonah stated that he was in the belly of the fish "for ever" (Jonah 2:6), but we know that he endured his eerie journey beneath the sea for "three days and three nights" (Jonah 1:17).
More than 50 times the Bible uses "for ever" to mean "for as long as time lasts in that specific case." The term is used colloquially today to describe a downpour or a hot summer's afternoon (or a sermon!) that "went on forever."
Death, Not Eternal Torment
The Bible tells us that "the wages of sin is" not eternal life in hellfire, but "death" (Romans 6:23), the same penalty God assured Adam and Eve would be theirs if they ate the forbidden fruit.
Ezekiel states clearly that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4), and a plethora of other Bible verses and passages endorse this position. The prophet Malachi wrote that sinners would burn up as "stubble" and would become "ashes under the soles" of the feet of the redeemed (Malachi 4:1, 3). Even the final fate of Satan is explicitly pronounced in Ezekiel 28:18, where the Bible says that the enemy of souls will be reduced to ashes upon the "earth." Compare that with Psalm 37:10 ("For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be"), Psalm 68:2 ("as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God"), and other similar verses. Soon you get a clear picture that the purpose of the fires of hell is to eradicate sin and to expunge the universe of its awful presence.
In Scripture, "for ever" is often used in conjunction with an event that has already taken place.
For instance, Hannah pledged to God that she would take her infant son Samuel to serve in the temple at Shiloh, where he would abide "for ever" (1 Samuel 1:22). No student of the Bible would take this to mean that he would remain in that temple for as long as time should last. Hannah herself interpreted the statement as meaning that Samuel would serve in the temple for "as long as he liveth" (verse 28).
Jonah stated that he was in the belly of the fish "for ever" (Jonah 2:6), but we know that he endured his eerie journey beneath the sea for "three days and three nights" (Jonah 1:17).
More than 50 times the Bible uses "for ever" to mean "for as long as time lasts in that specific case." The term is used colloquially today to describe a downpour or a hot summer's afternoon (or a sermon!) that "went on forever."
Death, Not Eternal Torment
The Bible tells us that "the wages of sin is" not eternal life in hellfire, but "death" (Romans 6:23), the same penalty God assured Adam and Eve would be theirs if they ate the forbidden fruit.
Ezekiel states clearly that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4), and a plethora of other Bible verses and passages endorse this position. The prophet Malachi wrote that sinners would burn up as "stubble" and would become "ashes under the soles" of the feet of the redeemed (Malachi 4:1, 3). Even the final fate of Satan is explicitly pronounced in Ezekiel 28:18, where the Bible says that the enemy of souls will be reduced to ashes upon the "earth." Compare that with Psalm 37:10 ("For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be"), Psalm 68:2 ("as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God"), and other similar verses. Soon you get a clear picture that the purpose of the fires of hell is to eradicate sin and to expunge the universe of its awful presence.

Please read Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. God is not speaking about a fire that will burn forever. He is speaking about a fire that have eternal consequences. Is Sodom and Gomorrha still burning today?


So the bottom line is that hell will not burn forever. God bless.

mikebr
Jul 7th 2008, 01:04 AM
i believe this is indeed more of a cultural understanding than a biblical one. humans do not want to accept the hard truth that there is a place of eternal torment, so instead they produce human doctrine based upon their own denial.

as for scriptures, i think the bible is quite clear on this subject:

Matt 25:41: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Mark 9:43-48: "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched."

satan is not going to be utterly destroyed and annihilated - he would be glad if that were the case. instead, scripture says he will be tormented for all eternity in the fire that shall never be quenched, and where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. so will be the dire fate of all those who are not saved through jesus christ.



hell is satan's eternal dominion.

Your two quotes in red are contrary to one another. Both cannot be true.

Have you ever heard the term Gehenna? Care to expound on you ideas about it.

mikebr
Jul 7th 2008, 01:06 AM
Wouldn't hurt to read Daveandme's post and tell us your thoughts on what it says.

Athanasius
Jul 7th 2008, 01:19 AM
The major missunderstanding with the topic of hell is the word forever and eternal. Let's see what does the Bible means by these words.

In Scripture, "for ever" is often used in conjunction with an event that has already taken place.

For instance, Hannah pledged to God that she would take her infant son Samuel to serve in the temple at Shiloh, where he would abide "for ever" (1 Samuel 1:22). No student of the Bible would take this to mean that he would remain in that temple for as long as time should last. Hannah herself interpreted the statement as meaning that Samuel would serve in the temple for "as long as he liveth" (verse 28).
Jonah stated that he was in the belly of the fish "for ever" (Jonah 2:6), but we know that he endured his eerie journey beneath the sea for "three days and three nights" (Jonah 1:17).
More than 50 times the Bible uses "for ever" to mean "for as long as time lasts in that specific case." The term is used colloquially today to describe a downpour or a hot summer's afternoon (or a sermon!) that "went on forever."

Death, Not Eternal Torment
The Bible tells us that "the wages of sin is" not eternal life in hellfire, but "death" (Romans 6:23), the same penalty God assured Adam and Eve would be theirs if they ate the forbidden fruit.
Ezekiel states clearly that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4), and a plethora of other Bible verses and passages endorse this position. The prophet Malachi wrote that sinners would burn up as "stubble" and would become "ashes under the soles" of the feet of the redeemed (Malachi 4:1, 3). Even the final fate of Satan is explicitly pronounced in Ezekiel 28:18, where the Bible says that the enemy of souls will be reduced to ashes upon the "earth." Compare that with Psalm 37:10 ("For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be"), Psalm 68:2 ("as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God"), and other similar verses. Soon you get a clear picture that the purpose of the fires of hell is to eradicate sin and to expunge the universe of its awful presence.

Interestingly, it was the devil who was first to suggest that sinners would not die (Genesis 3:4). A hell where sinners never perish would prove the devil right and would make God, who told Eve she would "surely die" as a result of transgression (Genesis 2:17),

Please read Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. God is not speaking about a fire that will burn forever. He is speaking about a fire that have eternal consequences. Is Sodom and Gomorrha still burning today?

So the bottom line is that hell will not burn forever. God bless.

Also wouldn't hurt if david's post wasn't posted in triplicate...

mikebr
Jul 7th 2008, 01:23 AM
Also wouldn't hurt if david's post wasn't posted in triplicate... I tried to fix it up, but david, could you clarify this post, it's confusing and contradictory.


That shouldn't have anything to do with Immortality's response to it or lack there of.

Athanasius
Jul 7th 2008, 01:25 AM
That shouldn't have anything to do with your response to it or lack there of. How bout that gehenna word?

It has nothing to do with immortalitys response; I want to know for myself if I've cleaned it [david's post] up properly.

Naphal
Jul 7th 2008, 03:27 AM
hell will never be destroyed. it is as eternal as heaven, and so will its torments be.



Hell is cast into the lake of fire and that is known as the second death. Hell shall be dead so that's equal to destruction especially for a "place". The fires of the lake burn forever but don't think they are unable to burn and destroy anything tossed into them.

Athanasius
Jul 7th 2008, 03:28 AM
The major missunderstanding with the topic of hell is the word forever and eternal. Let's see what does the Bible means by these words.

In Scripture, "for ever" is often used in conjunction with an event that has already taken place.

For instance, Hannah pledged to God that she would take her infant son Samuel to serve in the temple at Shiloh, where he would abide "for ever" (1 Samuel 1:22). No student of the Bible would take this to mean that he would remain in that temple for as long as time should last. Hannah herself interpreted the statement as meaning that Samuel would serve in the temple for "as long as he liveth" (verse 28).
Jonah stated that he was in the belly of the fish "for ever" (Jonah 2:6), but we know that he endured his eerie journey beneath the sea for "three days and three nights" (Jonah 1:17).
More than 50 times the Bible uses "for ever" to mean "for as long as time lasts in that specific case." The term is used colloquially today to describe a downpour or a hot summer's afternoon (or a sermon!) that "went on forever."

I need to digress for a moment.

I've been sitting here for about ten minutes now trying to think how I'm going to say what I want to say. The biggest frustration in my life right now is my ability (or lack there-of) to get across succinctly and eloquently my point of view. Perhaps I'm not being completely fair to myself. When I write I compare myself to the authors that I read. Admittedly, these authors have been writing far longer than I have, so in a way I'm comparing my inexperience with their experience and begging the question, naively, why can't I write as well as they can? Well, that's just it--I'm inexperienced.

I think, however, that I do agree with you. When the topic of Hell arises the question inevitably changes focus from the reality of Hell as a place that exists. To the reality of the length of punishment in Hell; whether that be a finite or infinite period of time. The words "forever" and "eternal" would appear to most to be self evident. That is to say that for most, "forever" and "eternal" as words represent periods of unending time, or an unending period outside of time. As you've pointed out however, there are instances in the Old Testament where "forever" wasn't forever in view of eternity. With this in mind the question is simple (but the answer is hard); what is scripture actually saying, and how can we find out?

Now before I begin my response to your post I want to say up front that I follow the advice, as best I can, of J.P. Moreland. He said that when someone sets about answering their questions about religion and values, they should try to be guided by a search for truth, and they ought to be guided by reason. They should not be guided by what they want to believe. To relate this to the question at hand; I do not want to believe Hell is eternal. What I want to believe and what scripture says are two completely different things, however. As such, there are many things I now believe that once offended me. I believe Hell is eternal, I believe this because scripture tells us Hell is eternal. This is in stark contradiction to what I want to believe. Please keep this in mind.

Your first observation is that in scripture, "for ever" is often used in conjunction with an event that has already taken place. My immediate question is this: what of other instances? What of Revelation 14:11, which speaks of future torment, "for ever and ever". What also of Mark 9:43, which describes a future unquenchable fire? Thus I find your initial claim, as well as your supporting texts (Samuel and Jonah) insufficient. At most you've shown that there are instances in Scripture where "for ever [and ever]" do not mean "for ever and ever". However, we still have to deal with the other verses that aren't included in the 'often'.

I believe we can deal with your supporting texts quite easily.Concerning 1 Samuel 1:22, I completely agree with your interpretation. We know that in this instance "for ever" refers to the entirety of Samuel's life. We know this because of 1 Samuel 1:11, "She made a vow and said, "O LORD of hosts, if You will indeed look on the affliction of Your maidservant and remember me, and not forget Your maidservant, but will give Your maidservant a son, then I will give him to the LORD all the days of his life, and a razor shall never come on his head". Turning our attention to Jonah, I will simply say that Jonah 2 is a prayer, I believe it's expected that a prayer be filled with metaphorical language--it's no indication either way of the meaning of "for ever", except that once again, it can be used to indicate a finite or infinite period of time.

Your third point, that "for ever" means "as long as it lasts in that specific case" seems to me to be a proof for either side. It's my contention that Hell is eternal, thus, "for ever" refers to how long 'eternal' lasts, and that would be forever.

I'm only going to use one example in this reply as to why I believe Hell is eternal, please bear with me. In 1 Timothy 1:17 we read, "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen." Furthermore, in Revelation 5:13 we read, "And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." In both these verses we see instances of the words "forever and ever". The same Greek phrase is used in both verses, "aionas ton aionon"--ages of the ages.

Now, there are also two other verse that use the phrase "aionas ton aionon". The first is Revelation 19:3, "And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! HER SMOKE RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER." The second is Revelation 20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Thus to me I see a reasonable connection.

Sorry... Don't have time to go into the rest. So I'll have to leave my response at that for now.

immortality
Jul 7th 2008, 03:42 AM
i really don't have the energy right now to expound on how the doctrine of an eternal hell is biblical. all i will say is that we need to remember that we're in the apostate days, where biblical truths are being replaced with those that make people feel content and complacent.

i myself have had my periods of doubt about this matter. i wondered why could such a loving god send people into not just torment, but eternal torment. now i know that god is not only loving, but just as well - he has to be. if he loves that which is holy he must hate that which is unholy.

so all i can do is pray that those who don't believe this doctrine will have their eyes opened to the truth by the grace of god, no matter how gloomy or dreadful it may be.

and for those who don't mind reading a little, i encourage you to read this article by jonathan edwards:

The Eternity of Hell's Torments (http://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/eternity.htm)

Naphal
Jul 7th 2008, 03:48 AM
i really don't have the energy right now to expound on how the doctrine of an eternal hell is biblical.



Hell is not eternal but the lake of fire is.


Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

mikebr
Jul 7th 2008, 04:00 AM
i really don't have the energy right now to expound on how the doctrine of an eternal hell is biblical. all i will say is that we need to remember that we're in the apostate days, where biblical truths are being replaced with those that make people feel content and complacent.

i myself have had my periods of doubt about this matter. i wondered why could such a loving god send people into not just torment, but eternal torment. now i know that god is not only loving, but just as well - he has to be. if he loves that which is holy he must hate that which is unholy.

so all i can do is pray that those who don't believe this doctrine will have their eyes opened to the truth by the grace of god, no matter how gloomy or dreadful it may be.

and for those who don't mind reading a little, i encourage you to read this article by jonathan edwards:

The Eternity of Hell's Torments (http://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/eternity.htm)





"These shall go away into everlasting punishment." -- Matthew 25:46

This tickles me. Can you show me one place in this scripture where they went into everlasting punishment for not accepting Jesus as savior. In other words why were the sheep sheep and the goats goats?

threebigrocks
Jul 7th 2008, 04:01 AM
Hell is not eternal but the lake of fire is.


Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


And that I cannot disagree with.


Now, there are also two other verse that use the phrase "aionas ton aionon". The first is Revelation 19:3, "And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! HER SMOKE RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER." The second is Revelation 20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Where there is smoke, there is fire. There is torment forever and ever. Many will say that God being love won't send anyone there, it's too terrible. We have the choice to follow Christ, or wind up there. God has given us a way out of the fire. We need to simply follow the path He has laid out for us and we gain eternal life!

mikebr
Jul 7th 2008, 04:07 AM
So........................Will Hell be destroyed?

and When was it created?

Athanasius
Jul 7th 2008, 04:08 AM
Where there is smoke, there is fire. There is torment forever and ever. Many will say that God being love won't send anyone there, it's too terrible. We have the choice to follow Christ, or wind up there. God has given us a way out of the fire. We need to simply follow the path He has laid out for us and we gain eternal life!

I mean, if nothing we have can ever repay our debt...

ilovemetal
Jul 7th 2008, 04:10 AM
tor·ment
–verb (used with object)
1. to afflict with great bodily or mental suffering; pain: to be tormented with violent headaches.
2. to worry or annoy excessively: to torment one with questions.
3. to throw into commotion; stir up; disturb.
–noun
4. a state of great bodily or mental suffering; agony; misery.
5. something that causes great bodily or mental pain or suffering.
6. a source of much trouble, worry, or annoyance.
7. an instrument of torture, as the rack or the thumbscrew.
8. the infliction of torture by means of such an instrument or the torture so inflicted.

the worst part about hell too, will be you can't escape yourself. eek. i've had a bad experience with this (see testmony) and it's not sometihng i wish for anyone ever....

DadBurnett
Jul 7th 2008, 05:27 AM
I want to return to the original question, Will hell be destroyed? The answer is, I think, both yes and no; it all depends on what you mean by “hell”…

And in exploring the Bible for clarifying answers about hell, it depends on whether you look in the OT or NT and more importantly, which translation of the Bible you use. Much of the confusion over “hell” has its roots in the KJV. A couple of examples of the usage of the word hell in the Bible.

A little research reveals that In the KJV, hell appears 31 times in the OT and 23 times in the NT
In contrast, hell appears in the NKJV only 19 times in the OT and 13 times in the NT
A quick look at a few other translations reveals:
NIV: 0 times in OT and 14 times in NT
NAS: 0 times in OT and 13 times in NT
RSV: 0 times in OT and 12 times in NT

The word “hell” in the KJV, for example was translated from different words; from Hebrew “Sheol” in the OT and the Greek “Hades” in the NT. Both Sheol and Hades have virtually the same meaning.

Sheol , in the OT is literally the place, or world, of the dead. In the OT it is variously translated as grave, pit, prison, hell, etc. This “place” is the resting/waiting place of both the righteous and unrighteous. And, there is no sense of fire being associated with this “hell.” It is alleged by Bible scholars and linguists that when Jesus and His apostles used the Hebrew Sheol or the Greek Hades, they were specifically referring to the grave, or the state of being in the grave called “death,” One example of this would be the words of the OT David quoted in Acts 2:21.

In one instance 2 Peter 2:4 , hell is translated from the Greek word tartaroo (from the root, Tartaros), which means "the deepest abyss of Hades." In this instance, Peter is referring to the angels (not human beings) who sinned and are consigned to the deepest parts of the grave (hell) to await the final judgment.

In the New Testament, hell is translated twelve times from Gehenna, the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Hinnom, Hinnom is the name of a valley outside Jerusalem where garbage and the carcasses of animals were cast into and consumed by a constantly burning fire. Gehenna is the only word translated as "hell" in the Bible that has any idea of fire or torment by fire resident in it. A couple of clear examples (NAS) are Matt 5:22 “… and whoever shall say, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the firey hell [gehenna]” See also Matt 18:9, 23:15, and James 3:6.

My point herein is simply this, in reading and understanding scripture, it is necessary to put things in their proper context and understand that while the Bible is infallible, translations of the Bible are not necessarily so …

There is much more that could be said about our understanding - our perceptions of this place called hell. I have perhaps shed the light of a few sparks on the subject – hopefully enough to entice someone to take a deeper look at what “their” Bible says actually says on the subject.

Oh, about the question, Will hell be destroyed? The NAS puts it this way in Rev 14, “and death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire …” A metaphysical or symbolic way (I think) of saying that physical death and dying, and the empty graves of the dead (in the ground or in the sea) will no longer occur or exist.

Bick
Jul 7th 2008, 05:46 AM
I always thought that unsaved people would go to Hell for eternity and suffer everlasting punishment. I have heard pastors say things like that. So I thought that Hell and the Devil would be around for eternity. I know that the Devil will have no power over the people who have been saved and are living on the New Earth, but I thought that he would continue to reign in Hell over those who did not accept Christ.

My husband, who has read Revalation several times (I have never read the whole thing all the way through) told me that when Christ comes back he's going to destroy both the Devil and Hell. He said that if he didn't, it would mean that God has no power over the Devil and my husband would have no reason to put his faith in him. When I told him that I thought God demonstrated his power by saving those who trust in him but that I didn't think he was going to destroy Hell, my husband said my theology is seriously messed up.

Help! Can someone please give me some direction here? Have I really misunderstood everything I thought I knew about Hell and eternity?

MY COMMENTS: As lovers of the truth, we should have and be able to use good bible concordance, such as Young's or Strong's.

In the O.T. the Hebrew "sheol" was 'interpreted' as 'hell' about half the time, yet "sheol" means "the unseen state" and is interpreted as "the grave" the other times, with "pit" being used a couple of times.
Those places where 'hell' was used have nothing to do with a place of fire and brimstone where the 'souls of the damned' are in torment.

In the N.T. the compilers of the KJV and other ancient versions, chose 'hell' as the word for three different Greek words: Gehenna (geenna-Gk), Hades, and Tartaroo.

Geenna was a site outside the south wall of Jerusalem in the Valley of Hinnom, from which we get Gehenna (Heb.) and geenna (Gk.). This site was a place where the city garbage, trash, offal was dumped. Because of its terrible odor, fires were kept burning day and night, to help purify the air and burn up anything that could burn. It was a place where the maggots would feed on anything that wasn't burned up.

Jesus referred to this in the Gospels 11 times as the worst kind of judgment for sinners and criminals. For if the council (Sanhedren) condemned someone to geenna, they would be stoned to death and their body cast into the fires of geenna. There would be no burial, which was a disgrace to a Jew.
NOTE: those condemned were alive human beings--not some "spirit/soul" of someone dead, that could be "tormented."

The verses are: Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15 and 33.

A number of times he spoke of this judgment in his total sermon on the mount, in which he set forth some standards for righteous living lookin forward to the Messianic kingdom.
IMO, there will be a geenna ourside the wall of a restored Jerusalem in the millennial kingdom.

The next Greek word is 'Hades' which literally means 'unseen' and is equivalent to 'sheol.' It should be translated "grave" or "unseen" depending on the context.

For instance, a familiar one is Matt. 16:18 "..thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." KJV.
I used to struggle with this, thinking 'if God controls Hell, how can it be trying to overcome His church'?

The NIV puts it this way, "...you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

First, "gates" is a metaphor for "powers" or "authorities", as in "the gates of Jerusalem shall conquer all foes." So, I interpret this verse as "the powers of the unseen will not overcome it (His church)." The powers of the unseen being Satan and all his followers.

Now, another confusing verse is Rev.20:14: "And death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." KJV.

We must remember at this point, that Revelation is based upon the OT. There are hundreds of verses or allusions to the Hebrew Scriptures, and this phrase "Death and Hell (Sheol-HEB.; Hades-Grk)," literally "death and
the grave" occur many, many times in the OT. And, even though people died at sea, it always meant "death followed by the grave,"

In My Opinion, it is telling us that "death and the grave" are done away with. For at this great white throne judgment, all whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire where they are burned up, this being their second death.
What follows this judgment is a New Heaven and Earth on which there is no death for all privileged to be there (Rev.21:4). So, with no death, there will be no more "death and Hades (grave or unseen, or Hell-KJV).

The third word rendered "Hell" in the KJV and others, is "Tartaroo" which means "cast down to Tartarus". Peter used this word to describe how the fallen angels are held in chains of darkness until they are brought out and judged, (2 Pet. 2:4).

Now, the next important thing you will hopefully study and understand, is that man became a living soul (Gen. 2:7) when the Lord God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.

Many times man is called a "soul" in the scriptures:
Since man is a living soul, when he dies he is a dead soul.

An oft quoted verse is Ezek 18:4, "..the soul that sinneth it shal die."

SOUL could be said to be the consciousness, the feelings, the desires produced by the breath of life vitalizing the body.

No where in the scriptures does it say "the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in Hell;" but it does say, "the wages of sin is death."
Rom. 6:23.

mikebr
Jul 8th 2008, 01:14 PM
Geenna was a site outside the south wall of Jerusalem in the Valley of Hinnom, from which we get Gehenna (Heb.) and geenna (Gk.). This site was a place where the city garbage, trash, offal was dumped. Because of its terrible odor, fires were kept burning day and night, to help purify the air and burn up anything that could burn. It was a place where the maggots would feed on anything that wasn't burned up.

Jesus referred to this in the Gospels 11 times as the worst kind of judgment for sinners and criminals. For if the council (Sanhedren) condemned someone to geenna, they would be stoned to death and their body cast into the fires of geenna. There would be no burial, which was a disgrace to a Jew.
NOTE: those condemned were alive human beings--not some "spirit/soul" of someone dead, that could be "tormented."

Thanks for posting this. Only Jesus used this word, (James used it one time) Paul, Peter, nor John ever mentioned it. Everyone who believes that Jesus was teaching eternal conscious torment say that Gehenna became a symbol for such a place. I have yet to find one reference to when this occurred.