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Gift of God
Jul 9th 2008, 09:40 PM
And that's about it, friends. Be glad in God!
I don't mind repeating what I have written in earlier letters, and I hope you don't mind hearing it again. Better safe than sorry--so here goes.
Steer clear of the barking dogs, those religious busybodies, all bark and no bite. All they're interested in is appearances--knife-happy circumcisers, I call them. The real believers are the ones the Spirit of God leads to work away at this ministry, filling the air with Christ's praise as we do it. We couldn't carry this off by our own efforts, and we know it--even though we can list what many think are impressive credentials. You know my pedigree: a legitimate birth, circumcised on the eighth day; an Israelite from the elite tribe of Benjamin; a strict and devout adherent to God's law; a fiery defender of the purity of my religion, even to the point of persecuting the church; a meticulous observer of everything set down in God's Law Book.
The very credentials these people are waving around as something special, I'm tearing up and throwing out with the trash--along with everything else I used to take credit for. And why? Because of Christ. Yes, all the things I once thought were so important are gone from my life. Compared to the high privilege of knowing Jesus as my Master, firsthand, everything I once thought I had going for me is insignificant--dog dung. I've dumped it all in the trash so that I could embrace Christ and be embraced by him. I didn't want some petty, inferior brand of righteoussness that comes from keeping a list of rules when I could get the robust kind that comes from trusting Christ--God's righteousness.

Philippians 3:1-9, TMB

This is very important to consider. Paul gives his pedigree of perfect law-keeping and his heritage as a child of Israel through Benjamin, and these might be considered impressive credentials to those who want to put their stock in the flesh, self-effort, and Jewish heritage.

People were coming in and saying that men had to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses in order to be saved. Paul says this is not so. He himself has put away this kind of righteousness in order to gain Christ and the righteousness that comes through the blood of Jesus--Christ's righteousness, the forgiveness of sins, imputed righteousness that begins to work itself out practically in our loves because of sheer gratitude.

Our righteousness is evident in that we walk by faith, and not by sight. The cross is before us and the world is behind us, and we are pressing on toward the goal of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

If you go back to law-keeping for righteousness, then you are no longer headed to the cross in your life and you are trusting in yourself and your ability to make yourself a child of God by works. This is impossible, God will have no part of it, He has ordained that we be saved through grace.

A perfectionistic attitude often comes from a desire to make one's self holy and thus fit for the kingdom. When we stop trying to make ourselves holy and realize that only God can do this, we are set free. We are no longer striving, and God is now able to work in our lives.

Be praying for the body that we may turn from law-righteousness to Christ-righteousness.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 9th 2008, 10:02 PM
So you propose to rip the Torah from the bible and live without its blessed instructions?

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

As i said before what makes the difference is the reason why you are trying to please God. Are you doing it to show off your own holiness or are you doing it because you love your Father? Are you doing it to look good and because the Law says so, or are you doing it because it's in your heart?

In this we agree my friend, however i do not agree that the Law is useless or even abolished for those who are in Christ.

Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

I was never perfectionist because i wanted to show off, but i was perfectionist because i got a lot of joy out of doing my best.

Gift of God please tell me: So if i get the same joy out of doing my best and now am doing it for the one who saved me is that wrong?

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 9th 2008, 10:15 PM
Let me add, that i do not advocate circumcision of the penile area as a must. I do only consider circumcision of the heart the true identity of a believer, in Christ.
If your heart is not circumcised then you're no better off than one who got himself circumcised outwardly going by the letter of the law.

My understanding however of scripture is that someone who is circumcised in the heart will also outwardly manifest that which is in the heart. This is the manifestation of the Spirit in the Believer's life who will then produce good fruit, visible to all.
This is not the flesh working, rather the Spirit producing fruit.

Shalom,
Tanja

Gift of God
Jul 10th 2008, 04:50 AM
I wrote:


He himself has put away this kind of righteousness in order to gain Christ and the righteousness that comes through the blood of Jesus--Christ's righteousness, the forgiveness of sins, imputed righteousness that begins to work itself out practically in our lives because of sheer gratitude.


Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Romans 10:4.

The fact that we do not attain to righteousness through the law does not mean that we don't uphold and establish the law--the law is a tutor to bring people to Christ, so that they may be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Galatians 3:24-25.

Therefore we exalt that tutor so people may come to Christ and be established by faith. That no one can be justified through law-keeping is evident, for "The just shall live by faith." Habbakuk 2:4.

We cannot be justified through law-keeping, because only the blood of Jesus brings forgiveness of sins, and it is obvious to me that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Therefore all of us need forgiveness, and the law cannot bring forgiveness to us, its purpose is to condemn all those who are in transgression.

A new righteousness has come that is witnessed by the law and the prophets, the righteousness which is from God by faith, apart from the works of the law. Romans 3:21

The law bears testimony to the fact that this is a true righteousness, because those who are righteous through faith in Jesus bear the fruit of the Spirit, and against such there is no law. Galatatians 5:22-23. Romans 3:21.

Tanja, it is not wrong to want to do your best for the One who saved you as long as you are not doing it to somehow make yourself worthy of Him. He has already made you worthy by shedding His blood, He has shown you that you are of infinite worth to Him.

I myself love Jesus and want to do my best for Him. And while I am no longer under the law, who was in effect my tutor to lead me to Christ that I might be justified by faith, this does not mean that I have chucked away all the wisdom given to me by that tutor. All of the training that he has trained me with I retain in my spirit.

My point is that no one can keep the law perfectly, once we have strived long and hard enough to realize this we will come to Jesus asking Him for total forgiveness, and from then on we will live a brand new life according to the spirit and not the letter. When we realize we can't be perfect and stop trying to win God's approval in all of our attempts to become perfect, we are then set free to serve the Lord out of gratitude rather than obligation.

Does this make sense to you?

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 10th 2008, 06:49 AM
My point is that no one can keep the law perfectly, once we have strived long and hard enough to realize this we will come to Jesus asking Him for total forgiveness, and from then on we will live a brand new life according to the spirit and not the letter. When we realize we can't be perfect and stop trying to win God's approval in all of our attempts to become perfect, we are then set free to serve the Lord out of gratitude rather than obligation.

I understand what you are saying and i agree in part. I cannot yet be perfect, even if my Spirit knows i fail in the flesh, so far i get you and agree.

Does this mean we give up? Does a child who learns to walk ever give up? Or does it keep on trying til it can walk?
I'm not trying to get God's approval, but i'm trying to live my life the way He'd want me to. I want to be a joy to Him.
Tell me if you have children, and if they try really hard to do something that you want them to do, if that doesn't give you joy, even if they fail???

I train like an athlete would as if to win a prize.. it trains in overcoming.

1Jn 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

Rom 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.

Anyway, i gotta go to bed now, Good night.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Jul 10th 2008, 01:43 PM
I understand what you are saying and i agree in part. I cannot yet be perfect, even if my Spirit knows i fail in the flesh, so far i get you and agree.

Does this mean we give up? Does a child who learns to walk ever give up? Or does it keep on trying til it can walk?
I'm not trying to get God's approval, but i'm trying to live my life the way He'd want me to. I want to be a joy to Him.
Tell me if you have children, and if they try really hard to do something that you want them to do, if that doesn't give you joy, even if they fail???

I train like an athlete would as if to win a prize.. it trains in overcoming.

1Jn 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

Rom 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.

Anyway, i gotta go to bed now, Good night.

Shalom,
Tanja
What has that training, according to Paul, have to do with keeping the Law of Moses?

Gift of God
Jul 10th 2008, 05:22 PM
Tanja,

I think you should keep on trying until you come to the end of yourself.

I don't think that keeping the law is the same as learning to walk. But if it is, then there comes a point in which you just walk and aren't striving to do so anymore. I think that the point in which you are walking is the point in which you have given up on trying and you just do it. Even then there are dangers to face, for you still have to learn to run, and you might fall in that. And after that you must learn to run the marathon, and in that marathon there are snares laid by the enemy which must be overcome.

What I am saying is that there is never going to be a time, until we get there, in which you will be free from the capacity to sin (see also 1 John 1:8), or your flesh nature which is disposed to sinning. Though you walk and run, there is always the possibility of stumbling and falling. James 3:2 James even included the apostles in this. How much more can we stumble and fall who are not apostles but only mere servants of God?

The key to not stumbling is to walk circumspectly and to add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness agape love.

This is a process of sanctification that does not include law-keeping anywhere within it.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 10th 2008, 05:53 PM
I don't think that keeping the law is the same as learning to walk.There's a law of gravity that a child needs to overcome when learning to walk, so imo it's quite comparable.


What I am saying is that there is never going to be a time, until we get there, in which you will be free from the capacity to sin
I'm not arguing that, in this world, and until we are changed and glorified as He was we will have that sin within us no matter how hard we try to suppress it.



What has that training, according to Paul, have to do with keeping the Law of Moses?The thing that bothers me about the above statement is that people treat the Law of Moses as something that has nothing to do with God, or as if it did not come from God.
Do you really think that God would approve of all that to be in the scriptures if it was not somehow applicable to our lives?
I see the Law as an instruction guide and as long as i have a shred of sin within me i will need the Law to point it out so i can correct my ways and know good from evil.


The key to not stumbling is to walk circumspectly and to add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness agape love.And how will you know what virtue is? Where does knowledge come from? Etc.


This is a process of sanctification that does not include law-keeping anywhere within it.I simply disagree.

Shalom,
Tanja

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 10th 2008, 06:11 PM
Jesus Himself............. is the Gift of Righeousness...

A gift you don't work for.. you don't earn.... you dont buy...

It is a Gift..... and He alone is the Gift of Righteousness..

It is given and imparted by Him alone... It is 'unmerited' on our part.......and it is not attained by our relgious works.....

He clothes us with His righteousness... that attained and acceptable thru His atoning and perfect work at Calvary
....... when we trust in that ... as a child would... this is where one is transferred from the kindgom of darkness into the Kingdon of Light and the Kingdom of His Dear Son... amen..

ProjectPeter
Jul 10th 2008, 06:58 PM
Tanja,

I think you should keep on trying until you come to the end of yourself.

I don't think that keeping the law is the same as learning to walk. But if it is, then there comes a point in which you just walk and aren't striving to do so anymore. I think that the point in which you are walking is the point in which you have given up on trying and you just do it. Even then there are dangers to face, for you still have to learn to run, and you might fall in that. And after that you must learn to run the marathon, and in that marathon there are snares laid by the enemy which must be overcome.

What I am saying is that there is never going to be a time, until we get there, in which you will be free from the capacity to sin (see also 1 John 1:8), or your flesh nature which is disposed to sinning. Though you walk and run, there is always the possibility of stumbling and falling. James 3:2 James even included the apostles in this. How much more can we stumble and fall who are not apostles but only mere servants of God?

The key to not stumbling is to walk circumspectly and to add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness agape love.

This is a process of sanctification that does not include law-keeping anywhere within it.
Now that right there will preach... (see underneath my username)!!! :lol:

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 10th 2008, 07:03 PM
Correct, you don't earn or buy His righteousness, it's a free gift, one He gives based on what's in our hearts. It's the Almighty's choice to give, yet a change of heart can be had.... if one is just willing to open up and receive the truth.....like a child.

Question:
To all of you with children. Do you want a child just to hear what you are saying, (Hear o Israel), or do you also expect it to obey you? (following comes a list of rules by God)

Is the hearing of the child when it then turns and does whatever enough for you to warrant your forgiveness when it blatantly disobeys after hearing your words and not following the instructions given?

Would Abraham have been found righteous had he only heard God saying that he wanted him to sacrifice his son, and not gone and set out to actually do this?

Just some things to ponder.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Jul 10th 2008, 07:05 PM
There's a law of gravity that a child needs to overcome when learning to walk, so imo it's quite comparable.And naturally you know the law of gravity is not what he was speaking of... right? ;)



The thing that bothers me about the above statement is that people treat the Law of Moses as something that has nothing to do with God, or as if it did not come from God.

Do you really think that God would approve of all that to be in the scriptures if it was not somehow applicable to our lives?Yes... because they couldn't follow the Ten that God Himself penned Tanja. In other words... they made God angry. He gave them laws and precepts that they couldn't follow and allowed Moses to pen them. Their walk throughout history testifies of this fact and still does today.


I see the Law as an instruction guide and as long as i have a shred of sin within me i will need the Law to point it out so i can correct my ways and know good from evil.The Law is for the unrighteous so if that is what you are then you do need it no doubt. Yet for the righteous... they don't need the Law Tanja. ;)

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.


That is according to the Gospel of God Tanja... that's what it says... right?

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 10th 2008, 08:18 PM
Depends on interpretation of the scriptures PP.

Just because the law is not for the righteous doesn't mean the righteous have no need to live by it... Or can you suddenly because of God's grace steal and lie should you knowingly do so, or should you rather overcome the urge to do so?

The law being made for the unrighteous refers to the penalty the law stipulates, not the actual Law itself as that is never a question for those who obey.

They wouldn't folloow the ten because they were consistently not in agreement with God. They could have followed it if they truly had wanted to, there were enough that made it to the Holy Land. Or are you saying they made it to the holy Land while yet still in rebellion?

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Jul 10th 2008, 09:16 PM
Depends on interpretation of the scriptures PP.Pretty easy to interpret when you read it for what it simply says. ;)


Just because the law is not for the righteous doesn't mean the righteous have no need to live by it... Or can you suddenly because of God's grace steal and lie should you knowingly do so, or should you rather overcome the urge to do so?Uh... a righteous thief or a righteous liar? No such thing Tanja. You are missing the key part. It isn't for the righteous. THis is where folks get caught when trying to work around what it simply says.


The law being made for the unrighteous refers to the penalty the law stipulates, not the actual Law itself as that is never a question for those who obey.

They wouldn't folloow the ten because they were consistently not in agreement with God. They could have followed it if they truly had wanted to, there were enough that made it to the Holy Land. Or are you saying they made it to the holy Land while yet still in rebellion?

Shalom,
TanjaOnly their kids made it to the Promised Land Tanja. Those that came out of Egypt save Joshua and Caleb died in the wilderness. It was the children that didn't know yet to choose good from evil that God let cross over into the land. Only them... with the two that gave good report after spying out the land. Not sure why you bring this up but there's an answer to it regardless.

Gift of God
Jul 10th 2008, 11:59 PM
Speaking of the law of gravity...

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2

In context, looking at the previous chapter, Romans 7, the law of sin and death has to do with preoccupation with the law and shows that as long as we are preoccupied with the law we will find ourselves doing what we don't want to do and not doing what we want to do. Romans 7:15. There is a law of sin and death present within our members that wars against the law of our mind, and brings us into captivity to itself. Romans 7:23. We may be able to serve the law of God with our minds, but nevertheless with the flesh we will serve the law of sin and death, as long as we are preoccupied with the law. Romans 7:25.

Romans 7:8-11 makes it clear that this preoccupation with sin has to do with preoccupation with the law. A man once did an experiment with a bunch of kids. He took them to a playground and said, you can do anything you want except spit on the sidewalk. And then he left them and watched them through a pair of binoculars without their knowing. By the time a half hour had rolled around, every one of them had spit on the sidewalk, not once, but many times. The point of this is that we are sinful, and if we are shown a law it is our nature to break it. See also Romans 7:18, which says, "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to do what is good I do not find."

The law of sin and death being related to gravity, what do we relate the law of the Spirit of life, which sets us free from the law of sin and death? The law of aerodynamics.

The Holy Spirit is the "Red Bull" of scripture, He gives us wings so we can fly. Without the Holy Spirit we will focus on the law because that is our nature: we want to make it on our own, we want to earn our way to the Father. We will walk, and run, and jump, and try to make it to the Father, but we will never succeed because the Father dwells on high and we have to fly to get to Him.

So what is the law of the Spirit of life, in context? See Romans 7:1-6. I'll explain to you what it says right now. The law declares that we are bound to the law as long as we are alive because we are in effect married to the law, but when we die, that is, when we come to the end of ourselves and trust Christ completely, we are able to come out from under that marriage and become married to another, Jesus Christ Himself. In our marriage to Jesus we are governed by laws of faith and love, not by the letter of rules and regulations. We are set free from trying to be good by keeping the letter of the law and we come to the place where we walk according to what the spirit of the law is. We find that the law is written in our hearts, because love has been written there, and love is the fulfillment of the law. The law is fulfilled in us, not by us. Romans 8:4

Gift of God
Jul 13th 2008, 06:32 PM
*************bump*********

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 13th 2008, 07:58 PM
Uh... a righteous thief or a righteous liar? No such thing Tanja. You are missing the key part. It isn't for the righteous. THis is where folks get caught when trying to work around what it simply says.

I wonder what you would call King David then? A righteous adulterer?
Afterall he was a man after god's own heart....
He was righteous before and after that act but he clearly slipped up.....

As we all still do today, so why is the Law not for us then since we still sin?

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 13th 2008, 08:05 PM
Only their kids made it to the Promised Land Tanja. Those that came out of Egypt save Joshua and Caleb died in the wilderness. It was the children that didn't know yet to choose good from evil that God let cross over into the land. Only them... with the two that gave good report after spying out the land. Not sure why you bring this up but there's an answer to it regardless.If they didn't know how to chose good from evil God would not have let them in either....
I clearly see things different than you.

Eze 18:19 "Yet you say, 'Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?' When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live.

Deu 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
Deu 30:16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

They knew good and evil, and Moses was careful to explain it to them once again just before they entered. It was the last thing Moses did before he died.

If Moses couldn't enter because of his sin, how much more do you propose they could have entered if they didn't know the difference between good and evil and follow His ways?

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 13th 2008, 08:19 PM
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1-2
Do you propose that the Law of the Spirit is different somehow from the Law of God?

I say Nay, rather it is a depper level of the law... example, "you shall not steal"...
Superficial leve: this would mean do not take anything from someone.

Deeper level: it also means, do not take something you already have, because you're then in effect stealing from someone else in need if you do so.

When i look at the Law God gave Moses aside from the ten commandments i see a deeper level of each of those ten laws God gave.


The law declares that we are bound to the law as long as we are alive because we are in effect married to the law, but when we die, that is, when we come to the end of ourselves and trust Christ completely, we are able to come out from under that marriage and become married to another, Jesus Christ Himself.

So In essence you are saying the Law is bondage, but i say Nay: only sin is bondage and sin puts you in bondage to the requirement of punishment which the Law stipulates.

If you have no sin, you're free from the part of the law that stipulates punishment.

Rom 7:1 Or do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?
The life that is described here is a life of living for oneself, not dying to the truth and picking up the cross. Thus yes the law is still binding to those that are alive in the flesh.

Relate to this verse:
Rom 7:5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

But once one dies to oneself then:

Rom 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive (SIN), so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

I say again the Spirit will not teach you anything contrary to the Law, but rather it will bring you to your knees with repentance and tears realizing the depth of your sin on a much deeper level.

Shalom,
Tanja

ConqueredbyLove
Jul 13th 2008, 08:36 PM
My simple, quick answer:


~For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love~
Galatians 5:6

ProjectPeter
Jul 14th 2008, 12:03 PM
I wonder what you would call King David then? A righteous adulterer?
Afterall he was a man after god's own heart....
He was righteous before and after that act but he clearly slipped up.....

As we all still do today, so why is the Law not for us then since we still sin?

Shalom,
TanjaUh... David did that whole repent and do it no more thing.. don't you think?

I am not talking about a believer that "slips up", repents and turns back to God. Surely you know that... right?

ProjectPeter
Jul 14th 2008, 12:10 PM
If they didn't know how to chose good from evil God would not have let them in either....
I clearly see things different than you.

Eze 18:19 "Yet you say, 'Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?' When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live.

Deu 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
Deu 30:16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

They knew good and evil, and Moses was careful to explain it to them once again just before they entered. It was the last thing Moses did before he died.

If Moses couldn't enter because of his sin, how much more do you propose they could have entered if they didn't know the difference between good and evil and follow His ways?

Shalom,
TanjaOkay... you just aren't following the conversation! You spoke of the children of Israel making it into the Promised Land. The rebellious ones that came out of Egypt... the older folk... they all died in the Wilderness. The only ones, save Joshua and Caleb, that were allowed to cross over were the younger ones. The kids... and I even believe in one of the books it speaks of those other 20 as well as the younger ones that had yet to know to choose good and evil (in other words... the young ones). All the older folk died in the wilderness and didn't cross over.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 14th 2008, 12:12 PM
Uh... David did that whole repent and do it no more thing.. don't you think?

I am not talking about a believer that "slips up", repents and turns back to God. Surely you know that... right?

The point is there was sin comitted transgression of the law, and clearly King David was reminded of the law before he would repent.
He paid a hefty price for it too with the loss of his firstbornwith Bathsheba.

That's my point.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Jul 14th 2008, 12:17 PM
Do you propose that the Law of the Spirit is different somehow from the Law of God?

I say Nay, rather it is a depper level of the law... example, "you shall not steal"...
Superficial leve: this would mean do not take anything from someone.

Deeper level: it also means, do not take something you already have, because you're then in effect stealing from someone else in need if you do so.

When i look at the Law God gave Moses aside from the ten commandments i see a deeper level of each of those ten laws God gave.



So In essence you are saying the Law is bondage, but i say Nay: only sin is bondage and sin puts you in bondage to the requirement of punishment which the Law stipulates.

If you have no sin, you're free from the part of the law that stipulates punishment.

Rom 7:1 Or do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?
The life that is described here is a life of living for oneself, not dying to the truth and picking up the cross. Thus yes the law is still binding to those that are alive in the flesh.

Relate to this verse:
Rom 7:5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

But once one dies to oneself then:

Rom 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive (SIN), so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

I say again the Spirit will not teach you anything contrary to the Law, but rather it will bring you to your knees with repentance and tears realizing the depth of your sin on a much deeper level.

Shalom,
Tanja
Tanja,

If you truly understood what you are saying then you would even have to admit that the Spirit would lead you to go kill a bull or a goat when you "slip up." Or worse... have your family take you out to the back yard and stone you when you "slip up badly" and commit a sin leading to death. If the Spirit ain't leading you to do those things then the Spirit is leading somewhere contrary to the Law because that is what the Law required. ;)

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 14th 2008, 12:40 PM
If you truly understood what you are saying then you would even have to admit that the Spirit would lead you to go kill a bull or a goat when you "slip up." Or worse... have your family take you out to the back yard and stone you when you "slip up badly" and commit a sin leading to death. If the Spirit ain't leading you to do those things then the Spirit is leading somewhere contrary to the Law because that is what the Law required.

The Holy Spirit never leads to one to condemnation but to truth and mercy and grace and in worst case scenario conviction.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Jul 14th 2008, 01:00 PM
The point is there was sin comitted transgression of the law, and clearly King David was reminded of the law before he would repent.
He paid a hefty price for it too with the loss of his firstbornwith Bathsheba.

That's my point.

Shalom,
TanjaThe Law had no mercy on David Tanja. By the Law, David should have been put to death. If Bathsheba did it willingly then she too. There was no mercy in the law for adultry. Just as there wasn't for murder.


The Holy Spirit never leads to one to condemnation but to truth and mercy and grace and in worst case scenario conviction.

Shalom,
TanjaThe Law leads to condemnation... and that was Paul's point eh? ;)

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 14th 2008, 04:40 PM
The Law had no mercy on David Tanja. By the Law, David should have been put to death. If Bathsheba did it willingly then she too. There was no mercy in the law for adultry. Just as there wasn't for murder.I'm not aware that they experienced immediate death. And i do not see that Bathsheba and David were stoned....obviously God did forgive them.
Strange too that the adulterous woman wasn't stoned when brought to Yeshua under the OC Law.....
The God i know would rather give you a chance to repent than to just strike you down.
I see a whole lot of mercy in the Law.


The Law leads to condemnation... and that was Paul's point eh? Oh, i thought it was sin that leads to condemnation...... the Law that stipulates punishment is just the tool by which that condemnation is carried out.

If you abide by the Law it can hardly condemn you. (And by that i mean abiding the Law by the Spirit, not a simple mechanical following to the T)
NOwhere in the scriptures especially in the NT are we to to overthrow the Law.....
Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Uphold establish, the greek word points to both:
G2476
ἵστημι
histēmi
his'-tay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word στάω staō (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare G5087.





Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Jul 14th 2008, 05:17 PM
I'm not aware that they experienced immediate death. And i do not see that Bathsheba and David were stoned....obviously God did forgive them. That is because God forgave them. The Law did not offer forgiveness for either adultery or murder. Of course they didn't "experience immediate death." Wasn't implied either as well as you know.



Strange too that the adulterous woman wasn't stoned when brought to Yeshua under the OC Law..... Not strange at all really. Nor does it have really anything at all to do with the point which is in fact strange that you would bring that up in this discussion. ;)



The God i know would rather give you a chance to repent than to just strike you down.The Law did not do that... you are making my point for me and yet defending yours... again that is a tad strange.


I see a whole lot of mercy in the Law.No you don't at all when it comes to the sins I am speaking of. The Law allowed nor afforded mercy for an adulteress or a murderer. If you have that Scripture (of the Law of Moses) that allows for that then bring it on... but both of us know that there is NO such passage.


Oh, i thought it was sin that leads to condemnation...... the Law that stipulates punishment is just the tool by which that condemnation is carried out.Without the law... there was no sin (as Paul made clear as well). Apart from the law.... sin is dead.



If you abide by the Law it can hardly condemn you. (And by that i mean abiding the Law by the Spirit, not a simple mechanical following to the T)
NOwhere in the scriptures especially in the NT are we to to overthrow the Law.....
Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. No one is speaking of overthrowing the Law. But if you try to build what was once tore down... you better be keeping all of it because if you can't (and you can't nor do you) then you're in a pickle.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 14th 2008, 06:18 PM
Strange too that the adulterous woman wasn't stoned when brought to Yeshua under the OC Law.....Not strange at all really. Nor does it have really anything at all to do with the point which is in fact strange that you would bring that up in this discussion.



The God i know would rather give you a chance to repent than to just strike you down.The Law did not do that... you are making my point for me and yet defending yours... again that is a tad strange.





No you don't at all when it comes to the sins I am speaking of. The Law allowed nor afforded mercy for an adulteress or a murderer. If you have that Scripture (of the Law of Moses) that allows for that then bring it on... but both of us know that there is NO such passage.

That may be strange to you, but not to me. Let me show you how the Law allowed for mercy in case of Yeshua and the adulterous woman:

Here she was and had committed a crime worthy of death.
For one thing there needed to be 2-3 witnesses, without falsehood.
As Yeshua pointed out, no one was without sin, so none of them were credible/eligible as a witness.

Here are the scriptures to support this:

Deu 19:15 "A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established.

Deu 19:18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;

The last verse may not give you the info you would need to understand it the way i see it, because only through Jewish literature will you see that it wasn't just a diligent search about their accusation, but rather a search whether the person accusing another was above reproach, and thus credible to be believed on this account.
If a person was found to have sinned in any way then that person was not allowed as a witness.

That is why in Yeshua's scenario no one picked up the first stone as they all admitted their guilt and walked out.

The reason a witness had to be above reproach was that no one wanted to stone a person to death on account of someone, because if two or three banded together making this claim and a person was put to death innocently then those that did were murderers, including the judges that ruled that way. Therefore the death penalty did not happen very often because it was such a grave issue.

This is mercy in the law......there was no automatic death.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Jul 14th 2008, 06:25 PM
That may be strange to you, but not to me. Let me show you how the Law allowed for mercy in case of Yeshua and the adulterous woman:

Here she was and had comitted a crime worthy of death.
For one thing there needed to be 2-3 witnesses, without falsehood.
As Yeshua pointed out, no one was without sin, so none of them were credible/eligible as a witness.

Here are the scriptures to support this:

Deu 19:15 "A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established.

Deu 19:18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;

The last verse may not give you the info you would need to understand it the way i see it, because only through Jewish literature will you see that it wasn't just a diligent seacrh about their accusation, but rather a search whether the person accusing another was above reproach, and thus credible to be believed on this account.

The reason a witness had to be above reproach was that no one wanted to stone a person to death on account of someone, because if two or three banded together making this claim and a person was put to death innocently then those that did were murderers, including the judges that ruled that way. Therefore the death penalty did not happen very often because it was such a grave issue.

Shalom,
TanjaAgain... you are trying to take something elsewhere at a totally different time and a totally different judgment.

Stick with the topic here since we're actually talking of David and Bathsheba. Where did the Law allow for mercy for David murdering her husband and having sex with the man's wife? In the Law Tanja... where is mercy allowed?

I am not interested in the legalistic version of the Law. Yes... if there weren't two witness then there isn't proof. But God knew and Nathan knew and according to Jesus that would have been more than enough. Remember according to this sort of legalistic understanding and rendering of the Law... the Jews were absolutely within their right to discount what Jesus said. Read John 5 and 8. ;)

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 14th 2008, 07:18 PM
Rom 7:7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."
Rom 7:8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law, sin lies dead.
What he is saying here is the without the Law you're not conscious of sin.
Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.
He was alive in a worldy way but realized his sin when he saw the commandment
Rom 7:10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me.
The Law stipulates a penalty and this wages of sin is death is the penalty
Rom 7:11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
Without the Law sin is not known and not a tempting thing to do... is what this is saying The Law points to our sin.
Rom 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Rom 7:13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.
The Law points out our sin beyond measure but the Law is not cause for death, our sin is.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
This states the obvious our flesh is sinful by nature.
Rom 7:15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
Our Spirit wants to follow the Law our flesh falls all the time.
Rom 7:16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good.
If i overcome my flesh then i agree with the Law.
Rom 7:17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
The Spirit within me guides me to follow the law, all i have to do is use what God gives me in knowledge and understanding and overcome the flesh.
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
This again shows our struggle.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Typical struggle with the flesh
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
If we sin it's cause of our flesh
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Evil is always tempting us.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Yea i delight in what is good just and holy.

All of this states the problem with our flesh and hor hard it is to overcome, but it says nothing about us not being able to overcome.

Let's read on:

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
No, if you're abiding in Him you will not experience condemnation. (Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. )
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
The law of the Spirit of life is the Law followed not in the Letter but in the Spirit, while the Law of sin and death is the law stipulating the penalty when the law is broken.
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Through His blood we are made spotless
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Only those who walk by the Spirit not by the flesh will be justified.
(Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? )

You think i'm wrong because i do things you do not understand, but it's God that asks this of me. So this is what i do.
Just because you do not see things the same way does not mean either one of us is in error. God just uses different people in different ways.

Look at the parable of the talents to understand what i'm saying here.

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 14th 2008, 07:20 PM
Again... you are trying to take something elsewhere at a totally different time and a totally different judgment.

Stick with the topic here since we're actually talking of David and Bathsheba. Where did the Law allow for mercy for David murdering her husband and having sex with the man's wife? In the Law Tanja... where is mercy allowed?

God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.
I did address where the Law allows for mercy and not stray from the topic, the two scenarios do compare.


Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Jul 14th 2008, 08:03 PM
Rom 7:7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."
Rom 7:8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law, sin lies dead.
What he is saying here is the without the Law you're not conscious of sin.
Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.
He was alive in a worldy way but realized his sin when he saw the commandment
Rom 7:10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me.
The Law stipulates a penalty and this wages of sin is death is the penalty
Rom 7:11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
Without the Law sin is not known and not a tempting thing to do... is what this is saying The Law points to our sin.
Rom 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Rom 7:13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.
The Law points out our sin beyond measure but the Law is not cause for death, our sin is.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
This states the obvious our flesh is sinful by nature.
Rom 7:15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
Our Spirit wants to follow the Law our flesh falls all the time.
Rom 7:16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good.
If i overcome my flesh then i agree with the Law.
Rom 7:17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
The Spirit within me guides me to follow the law, all i have to do is use what God gives me in knowledge and understanding and overcome the flesh.
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
This again shows our struggle.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Typical struggle with the flesh
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
If we sin it's cause of our flesh
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Evil is always tempting us.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Yea i delight in what is good just and holy.

All of this states the problem with our flesh and hor hard it is to overcome, but it says nothing about us not being able to overcome.

Let's read on:

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
No, if you're abiding in Him you will not experience condemnation. (Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. )
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
The law of the Spirit of life is the Law followed not in the Letter but in the Spirit, while the Law of sin and death is the law stipulating the penalty when the law is broken.
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Through His blood we are made spotless
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Only those who walk by the Spirit not by the flesh will be justified.
(Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? )

You think i'm wrong because i do things you do not understand, but it's God that asks this of me. So this is what i do.
Just because you do not see things the same way does not mean either one of us is in error. God just uses different people in different ways.

Look at the parable of the talents to understand what i'm saying here.

Shalom,
TanjaTanja,

What was the law of sin and death?

And rest assured... one of us is in error.

ProjectPeter
Jul 14th 2008, 08:04 PM
God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.
I did address where the Law allows for mercy and not stray from the topic, the two scenarios do compare.


Shalom,
TanjaNot talking God's mercy Tanja. Talking the Law of Moses. ;)

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 14th 2008, 08:40 PM
What was the law of sin and death?The Law of sin and death is the penalty the law asks for if it is broken.


And rest assured... one of us is in error.
If you say so.

Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 14th 2008, 08:55 PM
Talking the Law of Moses.
Ok what exactly are you trying to establish regarding the law of Moses.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Jul 14th 2008, 09:08 PM
The Law of sin and death is the penalty the law asks for if it is broken.


If you say so.

Shalom,
Tanja
Did that Law give the option to show mercy? Not talking resting on a legal defense. Talking about the Law itself and again let's use David and murder for an example. You murder a man where is that covered under the Law... that they can show mercy? Not talking accidentally killing someone. Talking murder. Show me the mercy?

ProjectPeter
Jul 14th 2008, 09:08 PM
Ok what exactly are you trying to establish regarding the law of Moses.

Shalom,
Tanja
See post above.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 14th 2008, 09:46 PM
Ken,


Did that Law give the option to show mercy? Not talking resting on a legal defense. Talking murder. Show me the mercy? Ok i will attempt to show you, however i'm having to mull over how to make it understandable to you, as i need to get busy on somethings myself.

It does appear to me though that you're putting God in a box, and neither God nor his law are a rigid structure but flexible, as Love and compassion is very pliable.


Let me ask you something that came to mind. What do you understand this verse to mean?

Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.

What does the bolded part mean to you, and how do you apply it?

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Jul 14th 2008, 11:57 PM
Ken,

Ok i will attempt to show you, however i'm having to mull over how to make it understandable to you, as i need to get busy on somethings myself.

It does appear to me though that you're putting God in a box, and neither God nor his law are a rigid structure but flexible, as Love and compassion is very pliable.


Let me ask you something that came to mind. What do you understand this verse to mean?

Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.

What does the bolded part mean to you, and how do you apply it?

Shalom,
Tanja
Okay Tanja... you are still skirting the point.

According to the Law of Moses... where does it allow for mercy when someone murders? I know why the Law was added and in fact already explained what it meant... it was added because they were disobedient and made God right unhappy. You aren't answering the question.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 15th 2008, 04:43 AM
Ken,

If you think i'm skirting the point it's cause you are not getting what i'm saying.


Did that Law give the option to show mercy? Not talking resting on a legal defense. Talking about the Law itself and again let's use David and murder for an example. You murder a man where is that covered under the Law... that they can show mercy? Not talking accidentally killing someone. Talking murder. Show me the mercy?Exo 33:19 And he said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name 'The LORD.' And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
This is God's example. He has shown mercy even from the beginning when He kicked out Adam and Eve, yet he let them live. He said they would die the day they would eat from the tree, yet they lived and all He did is He kicked them out of the Garden.

He even clothed their nakedness, in other words He forgave them.

Forgiveness does not equal restoration to former privileges. It takes repentance and a show of goodwill before privileges may be restored.

This kind of picture of mercy continues through the ages and is shown again during the time with Moses. Moses offering Himself to be blotted out of the book of life on behalf of the people who had built a golden calf, have you an idea what Moses was asking God to do?

He essentially said throw me into hell for these people. He figured the death of one was worth less than the death of many. God relented.....

And these people did not appreciate it at all, they continued to grumble and complain at every turn. They missed grace, evident even in the OT.

The Law does not exclude mercy, though the Law does not specifically say that, and the reason for that is because man was created in the image of God, being a shadow of God.
We are to fill ourselves with His substance, and emulate Him, and then we will be like God.

The Law not specifying mercy was to put the harshness before their own eyes, and this was to teach them their hardness of heart.

You said you wanted me not to point to a legal defense but this is how God built in mercy, and made it so that they could see it even through the Law.

I cannot explain it any other way right now, so this will have to do.


Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 15th 2008, 04:53 AM
I know why the Law was added and in fact already explained what it meant... it was added because they were disobedient and made God right unhappy.

Ok let me say this, it was added because of transgression and repeated transgression i may add.

What does a good parent do when a child repeatedly disobeys, do you not finally wind up adding rules to bring that child back in line and show it his/her error? Less disobedience usually means onset of more rules life gets harder for a perosn like that.

Now once the child corrects its ways, those rules are not outdated, but something to fall back on should the same or another child prove to be difficult in like manner.

I don't read this verse to say the law was added because of transgression and no longer useful because we no longer transgress..... Infact i think there's a lot to be gleaned from those laws on a deeper level.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Jul 15th 2008, 08:55 PM
Ken,

If you think i'm skirting the point it's cause you are not getting what i'm saying.
Exo 33:19 And he said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name 'The LORD.' And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
This is God's example. He has shown mercy even from the beginning when He kicked out Adam and Eve, yet he let them live. He said they would die the day they would eat from the tree, yet they lived and all He did is He kicked them out of the Garden.

He even clothed their nakedness, in other words He forgave them.

Forgiveness does not equal restoration to former privileges. It takes repentance and a show of goodwill before privileges may be restored.

This kind of picture of mercy continues through the ages and is shown again during the time with Moses. Moses offering Himself to be blotted out of the book of life on behalf of the people who had built a golden calf, have you an idea what Moses was asking God to do?

He essentially said throw me into hell for these people. He figured the death of one was worth less than the death of many. God relented.....

And these people did not appreciate it at all, they continued to grumble and complain at every turn. They missed grace, evident even in the OT.

The Law does not exclude mercy, though the Law does not specifically say that, and the reason for that is because man was created in the image of God, being a shadow of God.
We are to fill ourselves with His substance, and emulate Him, and then we will be like God.

The Law not specifying mercy was to put the harshness before their own eyes, and this was to teach them their hardness of heart.

You said you wanted me not to point to a legal defense but this is how God built in mercy, and made it so that they could see it even through the Law.

I cannot explain it any other way right now, so this will have to do.


Shalom,
Tanja
Tanja,

Again... God is not the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is the Law. In that law Tanja does it say one that murders can be shown mercy or does it say one that murders must be put to death?

Here is your multiple choice.

A. Death
B. Mercy can be shown.

So Tanja... A or B?

Not looking for a religious answer to justify the Law. Looking for a simply answer. A or B should answer that simply.

If you say A then you are right. If you say B then show that passage of the Law.

ProjectPeter
Jul 15th 2008, 09:01 PM
Ok let me say this, it was added because of transgression and repeated transgression i may add.

What does a good parent do when a child repeatedly disobeys, do you not finally wind up adding rules to bring that child back in line and show it his/her error? Less disobedience usually means onset of more rules life gets harder for a perosn like that.

Now once the child corrects its ways, those rules are not outdated, but something to fall back on should the same or another child prove to be difficult in like manner.

I don't read this verse to say the law was added because of transgression and no longer useful because we no longer transgress..... Infact i think there's a lot to be gleaned from those laws on a deeper level.

Shalom,
TanjaThat law does nothing for those transgressions Tanja. That was Paul's point. You can run to the Law to and fro but in the end all that Law does is point to death. There is no eternal life in the Law. Never was.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 15th 2008, 09:03 PM
I bow out PP, just because this isn't going anywhere for you.
You cannot put God in a box and consider Him a ridgid set of rules. Therefore i cannot answer your question because you're armtwisting me into something that is circumstantial and not clear cut.
Only God and those with the Spirit know the heart of men.

Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 15th 2008, 09:09 PM
Alas, i see that differently than you do. Sorry.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Jul 15th 2008, 09:13 PM
I bow out PP, just because this isn't going anywhere for you.
You cannot put God in a box and consider Him a ridgid set of rules. Therefore i cannot answer your question because you're armtwisting me into something that is circumstantial and not clear cut.
Only God and those with the Spirit know the heart of men.

Tanja
Uh... I am not putting God in a box Tanja. Not even talking about God in that regard. Talking about the Law and you bet you can do that with the Law because the Law IS A BOX. That is what they mean when they say keep one part then you have to keep it all. That is exactly what Paul is speaking of in Romans 7... it is a box and one that has no escape except for Christ. Faith in Him... that is righteousness. Following the Law is futility and why is it that?.... Because you can't follow it. No one can. Can you follow Christ? You bet you can... His way is freedom and not a yoke.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 15th 2008, 10:18 PM
Ah but Ken, through Him i can follow it all.....I'm made righteous through Him. I'm covered inside through the Word and outside through His blood.

It's not just the blood alone that saves but the following in Faith too.

Look at the parable of the talents the money was a free gift just as the blood and the Word is, the various amounts were given according to ability, and each was to put the money and their ability to good use.

The wicked servant put the free gift into the ground and let it lie fallow, and got no return on something buried. He did not use his ability to work.

He didn't even bother to invest the money/gift/Word for God to make a profit on to where He would at least have gotten a share.

Each servant that worked with what they were given freely, and came back with twice as much as they put what they'd been given to good use, and they received a reward on top of being kept as servants.

The wicked servant got his free gift taken from him and was thrown into the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing with teeth...... That is a very serious message here.
If you don't work with what you're given then you're bound to lose it all as you're not concsidered worhty.

I'm sure i'll find many objections to that however i praise God for explaining this to me just now.

Shalom,
Tanja