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A820djd
Jul 11th 2008, 05:28 PM
Since none of them believe that Jesus was the REAL son of God? :hmm:

keck553
Jul 11th 2008, 05:31 PM
I guess that leaves Jesus, all his disciples, the thousands of Jews who trusted Him as the Messiah, and Paul out of heaven too. Not to mention the millions of Messianic Jews throughout the past 2000 years.

Mat 7:1 "Don't judge, so that you won't be judged.

HisLeast
Jul 11th 2008, 05:53 PM
Since none of them believe that Jesus was the REAL son of God? :hmm:

Well, "Jewish" can refer to ethnicity or faith. There are people who are not ethnically Jewish (no Jewish ancestry) who are Jewish by virtue of the fact that they practice Judaism. There are also people who are of Jewish ancestry who do not practice Judaism. So in the end it comes down to what the individual believes about G-d.

daughter
Jul 11th 2008, 05:58 PM
Since none of them believe that Jesus was the REAL son of God? :hmm:
None of them?

I'll have to tell my imaginary friend!!! :lol:

A820djd
Jul 11th 2008, 06:30 PM
None of them?

I'll have to tell my imaginary friend!!! :lol:

I'm just going by your guys' words saying that if someone doesn't believe that Jesus is their lord and savior that they won't be saved? Also I meant Judaism beliefs? :hmm:
I didn't say they won't, I'm just wondering the way you guys say "Accept JC as your lord and savior and you'll be forgiven for your sins etc..." So if jews don't believe Jesus is their lord and savior, what does that mean for them?

RabbiKnife
Jul 11th 2008, 06:31 PM
Eternal separation from God as is their choice by failure to believe.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 11th 2008, 06:58 PM
I'm Jewish and believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

Jewish is an ethnicity - Judaism is a religion. Those that practice Judaism will not go to Heaven.

Ta-An
Jul 11th 2008, 07:08 PM
I'm Jewish and believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

Jewish is an ethnicity - Judaism is a religion. Those that practice Judaism will not go to Heaven. Uhmmmm :hmm: I do believe that Judaism practicing Jews .... who will be going through the tribulation, will accept Christ as Messiah .
There are Jews who are Christians. (Messianic)

Every one, be they Jew, American, Chinese, Japanese.... who does not accept Jesus as Savior, will bypass heaven...

BroRog
Jul 11th 2008, 07:10 PM
I'm Jewish and believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

Jewish is an ethnicity - Judaism is a religion. Those that practice Judaism will not go to Heaven.


What about Messianic Jews? Don't they practice Judaism? :)

Ta-An
Jul 11th 2008, 07:21 PM
What about Messianic Jews? Don't they practice Judaism? :)No, they are Christian :D yet keeping certain traditions of their culture :)

apothanein kerdos
Jul 11th 2008, 07:23 PM
What about Messianic Jews? Don't they practice Judaism? :)

No, they don't. Judaism is an offshoot of the Pharisees (the only religious sect that survived the Roman Persecution).

keck553
Jul 11th 2008, 10:14 PM
No, they are Christian :D yet keeping certain traditions of their culture :)

That's not true. Messianic Jews obey God, not tradition. Make sense? I'll provide an example:

God said don't eat scavengers. That's what God says.

The rabbi's say before you eat an apple, they have to bless it to make it kosher. That's tradition.

keck553
Jul 11th 2008, 10:22 PM
I'm just going by your guys' words saying that if someone doesn't believe that Jesus is their lord and savior that they won't be saved? Also I meant Judaism beliefs? :hmm:
I didn't say they won't, I'm just wondering the way you guys say "Accept JC as your lord and savior and you'll be forgiven for your sins etc..." So if jews don't believe Jesus is their lord and savior, what does that mean for them?

Without Messiah, their sins cannot be atoned for because there is no Temple, hence no blood sacrifice. Even if they rebuilt it, the sacrifice would not be accepted by God. Atonement is only through blood, and that's clearly written in the Torah given to them through Moses. They choose to ignore it with eyes wide shut. As sad as it may seem, there is no way to the Father but through the blood of Messiah.

Toymom
Jul 11th 2008, 10:50 PM
Jesus is God. However, before His incarnation, the Jews did not know Him as Jesus. Are they not saved then? If so, then how did Jesus speak to Moses on the Mountain? Jesus said that the only way to the Father is through Him. Therefore, if anyone gets to the Father, then it is through Jesus whether the people know His name is Jesus or not.

As was stated, Judaism is a race as well as a religion and many of us who are Jewish by race are saved.

There are some who are Jewish who are saved who practice the Messianic Jewish religion although most people in that religion are gentiles. Jews do not recognize Messianic Judaism as a form of Judaism and don't like the MJs using the word Judaism in their name or them using Jewish practices, but that is another topic. The Messianic Jewish religion is one that believes that Jesus is the Messiah. Some of them are trinitarian and others are non trinitarian.

There is evidence in the Bible that the Jews who are in Israel during the great tribulation will recognize that Jesus is indeed God.

And as someone else stated, we cannot judge who is saved and who is not - that is up to the Lord to know.

Practicing the Jewish religion, or any religion for that matter including Christianity and Catholicism and any of their variants, will not save anyone.
Only the Lord can save us.

I personally did not come to know the Lord as a Jew, but did come to know Him when I prayed to Him as Jesus.
Several of my Jewish friends and relatives are also now born again Christians.
We believe that Jesus is the way to know the Lord and the only way to be born again.
But, I would not condemn the entire Jewish race and religion.
The Lord did not.
I believe that there are some who remain Jews according to the Lord's purpose and He will care for them.

brakelite
Jul 12th 2008, 06:45 AM
Since none of them believe that Jesus was the REAL son of God? :hmm:

Only Jews go to heaven.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 12th 2008, 06:57 AM
Only Jews go to heaven.

Christians are no more Jews than White people who speak Spanish are Mexican.

markedward
Jul 12th 2008, 07:19 AM
I'm just going by your guys' words saying that if someone doesn't believe that Jesus is their lord and savior that they won't be saved?It's not our words. It's straight in the Bible, plain and simple.

The Bible says that only those who place their faith in Christ will be saved.

This should be Doctrine Number 1 for Christians; even new Christians should know this one without any doubts. I am so surprised at the number of Christians who claim to follow the teachings of Christ but compromise on something so blatantly in Scripture. (Not that I'm saying you are, Scottizzle: this I was speaking generically.)

John 3:16, John 17:3, Romans 6:23, John 14:6, Acts 4:12

Jesus is the only way to salvation. If the person doesn't believe in Jesus as their savior, then they are not saved, period.

It's a sad truth, but it's still the truth.


Christians are no more Jews than White people who speak Spanish are Mexican.I think he's talking about the branch of Abraham, or whatever Paul calls it. "True Jews" are the ones who follow Christ. The Jew who follows Christ is a true Jew and is kept on the branch of Abraham. The Gentile who follows Christ is a true Jew and is "grafted onto" the branch. The Jews who doesn't follow Christ is false and is broken off of the branch. The Gentile who doesn't follow Christ isn't added onto the branch. Romans 11.

brakelite
Jul 12th 2008, 08:16 AM
Christians are no more Jews than White people who speak Spanish are Mexican.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rullion Green
Jul 12th 2008, 11:21 AM
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The Spiritual seed of Abraham... but is that not offensive to some people ? Namley ethnic Jews ? i include some messianic Jews there also ?

just going by what i have heard from Dr Michael Brown that it can be thin ice to tread ?

Ta-An
Jul 12th 2008, 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by ACCM http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1706269#post1706269)
No, they are Christian :D yet keeping certain traditions of their culture :)

That's not true. Messianic Jews obey God, not tradition. Make sense? I'll provide an example:

God said don't eat scavengers. That's what God says.

The rabbi's say before you eat an apple, they have to bless it to make it kosher. That's tradition.
What I meant by my post..... Not all Christians keep the Feasts of the L_rd..... Messianic Jews do :) So maybe the choice of the word "tradition" was incorrect.... I could have said..... The Messianic Jews still keep the appointed feasts of the L_rd in it's fulfillment of Yeshua thereof ...
Better?? :hmm:

The use of the Tallis, Shofar etc.... not all Christians do.... by accepting Yeshua as Messiah does not make them leave their heritage ..

apothanein kerdos
Jul 12th 2008, 01:15 PM
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Paul is using a play on words, stating that Gentiles have been grafted into the branch. He goes on, however, to explain that the lost Jews are still Jews (Romans 9-12). Here (http://jborofsky.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/christianity-and-the-hebrewsdoc.pdf) is a good read that completely deals with the issue.

keck553
Jul 12th 2008, 06:23 PM
Only Jews go to heaven.

Since believers are grafted into the family of Abraham, you have a point :)

keck553
Jul 12th 2008, 06:24 PM
What I meant by my post..... Not all Christians keep the Feasts of the L_rd..... Messianic Jews do :) So maybe the choice of the word "tradition" was incorrect.... I could have said..... The Messianic Jews still keep the appointed feasts of the L_rd in it's fulfillment of Yeshua thereof ...
Better?? :hmm:

The use of the Tallis, Shofar etc.... not all Christians do.... by accepting Yeshua as Messiah does not make them leave their heritage ..

Yes, you're correct. Sorry about my reaction. So many Messianics get accused of practicing orthodox Judaism and 'works' I wanted to make a distinction.

SIG
Jul 12th 2008, 08:25 PM
Ain't labels, words--and people--a trip?.....:lol:

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 13th 2008, 02:34 AM
Originally Posted by apothanein kerdos View Post

Only Jews go to heaven
Christians are no more Jews than White people who speak Spanish are Mexican.
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Bingo!!! And anyone can apply for citizenship, and be accpeted into the country as one of their own. It's called naturalisation in this country. After so many years it may be hard to tell the difference, and only the Head and the former foreigner may know the difference.

This is the adoption we experience when we become believers. We are grafted in and from afar no one may be able to tell the difference, and the root supports us.

It makes me wonder however..... what do most of you perceive that root to be that supports us?

Shalom,
Tanja

Ashley274
Jul 13th 2008, 02:38 AM
Uhmmmm :hmm: I do believe that Judaism practicing Jews .... who will be going through the tribulation, will accept Christ as Messiah .
There are Jews who are Christians. (Messianic)

Every one, be they Jew, American, Chinese, Japanese.... who does not accept Jesus as Savior, will bypass heaven...


Great post and you said it for me :hug:

Ta-An
Jul 13th 2008, 11:19 AM
Ain't labels, words--and people--a trip?.....:lol: Shalom brother :hug:

Words indeed actually do have meaning :idea: That is why the Hebrew word for "Word" and "Bee" is the same ;) Cause the Word of G_d (Bible) points to 'the source of food' which is the 'Bread of life' ..... so also a bee points to food when it has found nectar and does it's dance at the bee-hive to point the others to the source of food...

timmyb
Jul 13th 2008, 04:09 PM
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 13th 2008, 05:13 PM
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Well would you look at that. Looks like Paul separated the Church from Israel and didn't consider the church to take over ethnic Israel - after all, if he did, how in the world could there be a remnant?

Thanks for posting the Scriptures.

losthorizon
Jul 13th 2008, 06:12 PM
Well would you look at that. Looks like Paul separated the Church from Israel and didn't consider the church to take over ethnic Israel - after all, if he did, how in the world could there be a remnant?

But doesn’t the NT clearly teach that the “remnant” Jew and the believing Gentile of the first century (AD) both constituted the “Israel of God”? Isn’t is still true today that both Jew and Gentile who obey the gospel of Christ become “an holy nation” - ie - the Israel of God. Surely you do not teach that the secular unbelieving nation of Israel is God’s holy nation today - do you?

apothanein kerdos
Jul 13th 2008, 06:42 PM
But doesn’t the NT clearly teach that the “remnant” Jew and the believing Gentile of the first century (AD) both constituted the “Israel of God”? Isn’t is still true today that both Jew and Gentile who obey the gospel of Christ become “an holy nation” - ie - the Israel of God. Surely you do not teach that the secular unbelieving nation of Israel is God’s holy nation today - do you?

Oh, I most certainly do teach that modern Israel is chosen by God.

The 'nation' in the New Testament is a metaphor and an allusion to what Israel was. Of course the Church has not replaced Israel as the two have different purposes and not everyone in Israel was truly saved, whereas everyone in the Church is truly saved.

We've already started a topic (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=131004) on this though.

losthorizon
Jul 13th 2008, 07:37 PM
Oh, I most certainly do teach that modern Israel is chosen by God.


How many "holy nations" does God have today? Why does He choose a secular nation that has rejected their Messiah for almost 60 years. Is there a separate plan of salvation today for Jew and Gentile or are they both truly "one in Christ Jesus" as taught by the inspired writers of the NT?

apothanein kerdos
Jul 13th 2008, 07:39 PM
How many "holy nations" does God have today? Why does He choose a secular nation that has rejected their Messiah for almost 60 years. Is there a separate plan of salvation today for Jew and Gentile or are they both truly "one in Christ Jesus" as taught by the inspired writers of the NT?
As I stated and linked, there's already a topic dealing with that issue. :)

Read the OP in the topic as well so you can read the article it's linked to. After reading it (as it answers your questions), then we can come back and discuss the issue. :)

losthorizon
Jul 13th 2008, 07:58 PM
As I stated and linked, there's already a topic dealing with that issue. :)

Read the OP in the topic as well so you can read the article it's linked to. After reading it (as it answers your questions), then we can come back and discuss the issue. :)
Nothing personal AP but I don’t really want to wade through your 50+ page work on Dispensationalism revisited. If you have a summation you wish to present we can discuss.:)

apothanein kerdos
Jul 13th 2008, 08:20 PM
Nothing personal AP but I don’t really want to wade through your 50+ page work on Dispensationalism revisited. If you have a summation you wish to present we can discuss.:)

Nothing personal taken - but it's not a dispensationalist view at all. I believe in one covenant, I don't believe in the rebuilding of the temple, I don't believe sacrifices saved anyone. In fact, from what I understand I actually line up more with the covenant viewpoint than the dispensationalist viewpoint. In fact, most of the article is anti-dispensationalist in its view. You, of course, wouldn't know this because you can't take the time to educate yourself on my position.

Nice try, but I don't engage in lazy discussions. ;)

losthorizon
Jul 13th 2008, 09:00 PM
Nothing personal taken - but it's not a dispensationalist view at all. I believe in one covenant, I don't believe in the rebuilding of the temple, I don't believe sacrifices saved anyone. In fact, from what I understand I actually line up more with the covenant viewpoint than the dispensationalist viewpoint. In fact, most of the article is anti-dispensationalist in its view. You, of course, wouldn't know this because you can't take the time to educate yourself on my position.

Nice try, but I don't engage in lazy discussions. ;)
Again, I am not debating your with your term paper - if you have a defense for your position present it - you have a blank slate - don’t be lazy.
;)

apothanein kerdos
Jul 13th 2008, 09:03 PM
Again, I am not debating your with your term paper - if you have a defense for your position present it - you have a blank slate - don’t be lazy.
;)

I'll take this as your concession that you can't argue against what I presented in the paper.

losthorizon
Jul 13th 2008, 10:09 PM
I'll take this as your concession that you can't argue against what I presented in the paper.
You can take it for whatever you want to take it for - your “paper” is not part of this thread and I am certainly not required to read it. If you are not capable of defending your position on this thread without requiring someone to memorize your term paper then I will understand that you cannot defend your position. Still waiting. ;)

apothanein kerdos
Jul 13th 2008, 10:35 PM
You can take it for whatever you want to take it for - your “paper” is not part of this thread and I am certainly not required to read it. If you are not capable of defending your position on this thread without requiring someone to memorize your term paper then I will understand that you cannot defend your position. Still waiting. ;)

This wasn't a term paper (as though that somehow makes your argument valid).

Fair enough though - now it's part of the thread [parts of it at least] (in fact, this article gives an in-depth reply to the OP and answers the question succinctly). (If anyone wants to see the footnotes and citations, simply go to the before posted link):



A Great Nation

When people think of “the Jews” they generally think of bearded men with strange curly sideburns and weird hats praying towards a wall – such a caricature couldn’t be further from the truth. People associate “Jew” with “Judaism” and subsequently believe that anyone who claims to be Jewish must also ascribe to Judaism. Though there are certain elements within the Orthodox (Judaism) community who teach a true Jew is a practicing Jew, genetically this simply is not the case. Jews are an ethnicity, though unique in that there is a culture and religion tied to the ethnicity. However, just as it would be inappropriate to believe all Arabs, Persians, or North Africans are Muslims, it is also inappropriate to believe that all Jews somehow practice Judaism.

From a New Testament perspective one does not need to look any further than Paul’s own words. In Romans 9:3-4 Paul states that the lost Jews are his own kinsmen. In the Greek, there is no way to mistake what Paul is stating. The Greek reads, συγγενων μου κατα σαρκα (suggenon mou kata sarka), which is a Greek idiom. The problem is most translations attempt to do a “word for word” translation, which works about 99% of the time, until an idiom is reached. The word for word might state what the idiom is, but doesn’t state what the idea is behind the idiom. In this instance, the NASB reads that the Israelites are Paul’s “…kinsmen according to the flesh.” In modern English it would read that they are his brothers according to his ethnicity, or blood. Thus, if the Jews are not a race, then Paul is mistaken in Romans 9 where he states that he is of their same bloodline. He would be sorely misguided then in implicating that Christ was completely Jewish in His own lineage (9:5). Therefore, either Paul is mistaken, or one must accept that the Jewish people are a race/ethnicity and not just a religion.

Further evidence is that the lineage of the Messiah is traced through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and so on. If one looks at the lineage, it is not a spiritual lineage, but a physical one. That is to say, the lineage is passed on from generation to generation according to the bloodline and not to the spiritual status of the person involved (for instance, Judah – who paid his daughter-in-law to have sex with him – is on the list though he lacked quite a bit spiritually). The purpose in keeping a meticulous record of the genealogy is to prove the kingship of the Messiah – if the Jews, however, were not a race, then such a genealogy would be pointless. The genealogy would only matter if there was a bloodline of descendents, and this is only possible if the Jews are an ethnicity. Thus, the bloodline is further evidence to the proof of the Jews existing as a race.


The Jews Are Still Chosen

The cause of much anti-Semitism flows from the belief that the Jews have somehow lost their calling of God, but the New Testament – specifically Paul – addresses this issue face on and states that the Jews are still chosen. Before going further, it must be understood what “chosen” means.

The obscurity of the term “chosen” is understandable as Paul often uses it to describe those who have been elected by God to salvation. Thus, people often commit the fallacy of equivocation by assuming that because “chosen” means one thing in one sentence, it means the same thing in all sentences. This, however, does not work. For instance, if Jenny said she loved ice cream and that she loved her husband, we could not logically deduct that Jenny loves her ice cream as much as she loves her husband. The reason is there are not enough contexts to equivocate the two usages of the word “love.” Just because the same word is used does not mean the same meaning is meant in each usage. Likewise, when one says the Jews are chosen, this does not necessarily mean, “chosen for salvation.” It can mean a variety of things when used in the Biblical context, such as chosen for a purpose, chosen for a plan, chosen for a blessing, ad infinitum.

Thus, we must ask ourselves, were the Jews as a whole ever called to salvation (that is, chosen to be saved regardless of their choice)? Romans 9:6-8 seems to indicate that they weren’t:

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Spiritually speaking, only those who have been redeemed by the blood of the Messiah can be the spiritual children of God. This, however, was never the calling of Israel. Israel was never called en masse to salvation, but merely as instruments to God’s blessing of salvation. All this proves, however, is that the Jewish people as a whole were never called to salvation; it does not, however, negate the true calling of Israel and their future purpose.

What it is to be Chosen

If “chosen” when used as an adjective to Jews does not mean “salvation,” then it must mean something else – that “something else” is God choosing to reveal His glory through them. Note that Genesis 12 states that salvation and blessings will come from Abraham’s physical descendents, so that all tribes might be blessed. This shows that salvation was not exclusively awarded to the Jew, but it also shows that the Jews held a special spot in the revelation of this salvation. Though most modern Jews have rejected this salvation through Christ, it still shows that part of the Jewish calling was to give salvation to all peoples.

Secondly, the Jews are to serve as a people that show God’s glory in governmental rulings. The Jews were picked out of all other nations to have God as their leader. Whereas Christians are called to follow God in whatever country under whatever government, Jews were called to establish their government (in the land promised to them) and rule it as God wished them to rule it. Genesis 17:8 shows that land was promised to Israel for them to rule and this land was made under an eternal covenant (17:9). If the covenant is eternal (as will be shown later in the article) and is a promise of land, then we must still assume this promise is in effect. There is no reason to doubt that God has gone back on His promise, as He does no such thing (Romans 11:28-29). Therefore, this land is still chosen for the Jews and the Jews are still chosen for the land.

Lastly, though we can never fully understand why God chose the Jews, we can get a hint that they were chosen to show God’s faithfulness to His people. God is faithful to this people He has chosen who have been in constant rebellion against Him since the days of Moses; how much more faithful is He going to be to those He has called to salvation? The Jews, unlike any other race, have survived the test of time. Their culture is still intact, their language remains relatively unchanged, and they have held together more than any other culture while facing persecution that supersedes what any other nation has ever had to face. If God has rejected the Jews and is no longer faithful to them due to their unfaithfulness, we must assume that the Jews have bested God and survived when they shouldn’t have. We must take a humanistic approach and believe that the Jews survived under their own power without any help from God. The faithful Christian cannot stomach such a thought, that man could possibly do well on his own without God. Thus, the Christian must conclude that the Jews survive today because they are still chosen, because God is faithful to His people.

The Jews Still Worship God

One objection that is often levied against the Jews is that they do not worship the same God as the Christians do, but this too is a mistake. Though practitioners of Judaism are sorely misguided on who God truly is, this does not mean they do not speak to Him (whether He speaks back, however, is another issue). It is the equivalent of two people saying they know a guy named Bob – Jay may say he knows Bob, say a few things about him, but not know that Bob is married, has kids, works at a law firm, drives a BMW, or anything of this nature. Jay may simply know that Bob is successful and might be offended by the idea that Bob is married. Larry, however, may know everything about Bob and be his best friend. Just because Larry has a more complete knowledge of who Bob is doesn’t mean that Jay doesn’t really know Bob. Likewise, just because the Christians have a more complete knowledge of who God is does not mean that Jews do not know Him at all.

Paul essentially says the exact same thing in Romans 10:2-3 when he states:
For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.


Paul is stating that the Jews do have a zeal for God, but lack the proper knowledge of whom God is and therefore miss out on the entire point of salvation. The practitioners of Judaism in Paul’s time (Pharisees) believe the exact same thing most modern Orthodox Jews do. Yet, he did not say they worship a false God, or that they think they worship the same God as Christians but are wrong; Paul stated that the Jews had zeal for God (indicating they were worshiping the same God), but lacked the proper knowledge to bring them to a true understanding of whom God is. The same can be said of modern Jews; they worship the same God the Christians do.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 13th 2008, 10:41 PM
And some more....



A Faithful God: Why the Jews Are Still a Chosen People

One of the most erroneous beliefs about the Jewish people is that they have somehow been rejected by God, but if this is true then no Jew could ever be saved. Paul actually dealt with this issue in his writings to the Romans. Romans 11:1-2 very adamantly states that God has not rejected the Jewish people:

I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

In explaining what Paul means, Leander Keck masterfully notes, “Israel as a people cannot be rejected if there are Israelites who are not rejected. Paul is not the exception that proves the rule (that Israel is rejected), because as a believer he is an Israelite (is is emphasized in Greek), a specific instance that demonstrates that God has not rejected the people. Adding ‘whom He foreknew’ underscores God’s constancy: The One who on his own initiative chose Israel (and chose Jacob over Esau) has not responded to Israel’s unbelief by rejection.” Paul states that Israel has not been rejected because he (Paul) is a Christian.

Paul’s argument in Romans 11 is quite simple – if the Jews were rejected as an ethnicity and were no longer chosen, then no Jew could possibly be saved. Paul’s logic on this is to be rejected by God means there can be no salvation available – once a person is alienated from God that person cannot possibly come to Him, unless that person is more powerful than God’s rejection. Paul then states that some Jews are saved. He points to himself and others within the Roman congregation as ethnic Jews who are saved. He then concludes that because of this, ethnic Israel has not been rejected by God.

This form of thinking is very common in Paul’s writing to the Romans and follows basic syllogistic logic. The syllogism is very simple and looks like this:
(a) If the Jewish people were rejected, no Jew could be a Christian.
(b) Some Jews have come to Christ.
(c) Therefore, the Jewish people haven’t been rejected.

We must keep in mind that for (a) to be true (b) must follow. If (b) doesn’t follow, then (c) must summarize a logical conclusion related to the situation between (a) and (b). If we change (c) to read (c1), “Therefore, the Jews are still rejected by God,” then we have a logical contradiction. Unless (b) can be proven false, (c1) cannot be a logical acceptance in the syllogism Paul has presented and, therefore, one must logically conclude (c).

Romans 11:28-29 simply goes further to prove the point that Paul is making by stating that God’s promises are irrevocable. Paul says:
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

In other words, from our own perspective the Jews might look as enemies for they have rejected the Gospel. From God’s perspective, however, they are still loved because of what their forefathers did and because God’s callings are irrevocable. Therefore, God could not have possibly rejected Israel, for if He did Paul would be wrong. If Paul is correct, then the Jews are still called and still chosen. If Israel has been rejected, if the Jews are no longer chosen, then Paul is wrong.

The Remnant of Israel

The Jews that are being saved, who prove Israel has not been rejected by God, serve as a remnant of Jews faithful to God through Israel’s rebellion. Throughout the Old Testament one can read of how the Jews would rebel, but there was always a remnant of faithful Jews who followed God. The Jews of today who have accepted Christ are no different – they are chosen for God’s blessings through who their forefathers were, but they are faithful to God by serving Him. The Jews of today who have accepted Christ are a remnant of faithful Jews. As Keck observes, “For Paul, ‘remnant’ does not refer simply to what is left over (as in a fabric shop) but to the enduring part that survives disaster and so assures the future.” Keck is stating a truth – if there is no future for the Jews, if they are no longer chosen, there is no need for there to be a remnant. The purpose of a remnant is to restore something to its original purpose. A remnant of survivors of Katrina in New Orleans would be there to restore New Orleans to its ideal place. They would not cease to be citizens of New Orleans. Likewise, the Messianic Jews serve to restore Israel to what it was supposed to be when the proper time comes. Paul would be holding out a false hope if Israel was, in fact, no longer chosen.
Through this remnant, however, all of Israel will be brought back to God. The current rebellion of God is merely part of His plan for the Jews as He will one day close off the Gospel to the Gentiles and open it up to the Jews. Romans 11:25-27 states:

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB. THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

The Biblical Knowledge Commentary explains this verse by saying, “Israel’s corporate stumbling, which is temporary, not permanent, is called a mystery …God’s sovereign plan to put Israel aside temporarily in order to show grace to Gentiles is no basis for conceit on the part of the Gentiles; it is designed to display further the glory of God.” Thus, Paul states that God has a future plan for the Jews, which would indicate that they are still quite chosen. Though the Jews are currently in rebellion against God – of which the rebellious Jews will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven (just as anyone, regardless of ethnicity, will not enter God’s kingdom without being covered by Christ’s blood) – this does not negate their chosen nature, specifically the future calling of God for their return to Him. If the Jews were rejected by God, one would logically have to ask how this return could be possible. If the Jews are rejected then such a spiritual return simply is not possible, unless God decides to change His mind in the future. Knowing that God does not change, one must accept that the Jews, though in rebellion, are still chosen by God.

Hosea and His Whore

The book of Hosea presents God as a jilted husband and Israel as the prostitute turned wife who has been unfaithful to her groom. The entire point of Hosea, however, is that Israel will be punished for her unfaithfulness by being exiled, but will not be forgotten by God and will one day be called back. Hosea paints the accurate picture of Israel as a nation that had gone against God. Yet, through the book God never told Hosea to divorce his wife (who represented Israel) and never said He would forget Israel. Instead, God promises that He will one day restore Israel back to her glory.

The entire book, from chapters 1-13, discuss Israel’s rebellion, her former stature with God, and what the consequences will be for Israel because of the pain she has brought to God – chapter 14, however, discusses the future restoration of Israel. Hosea 2:6 foreshadows this event when God says that He will “hem Israel in,” throw up walls to block her path, and leave her with no choice but to follow Him. This is a future promise, but has it been fulfilled?
Hosea is speaking to the Northern Kingdom (Israel) in his book, right before Israel’s exile by Assyria. Most scholars date his ministry from BC 755 to BC 722. In verses 9:3 and 11:5 Hosea speaks of how Israel will be exiled and scattered throughout the entire world as punishment for her crimes against God. After Solomon, the 12 tribes split into two kingdoms. Ten tribes took the northern kingdom (Israel) while two tribes took the southern kingdom (Judah). Though Judah had some Godly kings (8), Israel had none. Thus, from the time of Solomon’s death (BC 931) to the exile of Israel (BC 722) Israel did not have a single Godly king. This means that for 209 years, Israel lived in rebellion against God. As punishment, God promised He was going to exile these rebellious tribes and scatter them among the nations. To this day, Israel is still scattered and has yet to return to God spiritually.

The problem with the book of Hosea, however, is that the first 13 chapters are fulfilled while the last chapter has yet to be fulfilled. Chapter 14 is a double promise to return Israel to her land and, more importantly, to return her to God and end her rebellion. Most of Israel’s land today is occupied by Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan. There has yet to be a complete physical return, though about 60% of Israel’s land composes modern day Israel. Spiritually, however, Chapter 14 is left almost completely unfulfilled. If the Jews are no longer chosen, then Chapter 14 serves as an unfulfilled promise of God that will never be fulfilled – Chapter 14 would indicate that God does not always live up to His promises. Thankfully, however, God upholds His promises and the Jews are still chosen, thus one day Chapter 14 will be completely fulfilled.
This promise cannot be in reference to the Church either. Some might try to argue that all promises in the Old Testament are now meant for the Church. Hosea 14, however, cannot in any way refer to the modern Church. For one, chapters 1-13 set the significance of chapter 14 and explain why chapter 14 is needed. Unless we want to advocate that chapters 1-13 refer to the modern Church as well (which would be laughable and illogical), we must conclude that chapter 14 is also meant for Israel. Likewise, the Church is composed of those who have humbled themselves before God in holy submission to Him. Though not perfect, they have been declared righteous by the blood of Christ. Chapter 14, however, is meant for a people in rebellion who are in desperate need of restoration. The Church simply does not fit this description, but Israel does. Therefore, it is impossible to conclude, with any intellectual honesty, that chapter 14 refers to the Church – it only refers to Israel.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 13th 2008, 10:42 PM
And in conclusion...



Father Abraham

God established a covenant with Abraham in Genesis 12, but expounded on it in Genesis 17:7-8, saying:
I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Notice that there are many key words within this passage. God states that the covenant He makes with Abraham is eternal, everlasting, and will last through all His descendents. This covenant, likewise, includes the inheritance of a land (Canaan). The land is promised to Abraham’s physical offspring, that they might inhabit it and worship God in that land. Though God requires Abraham be circumcised, this serves as proof of one who has taken the covenant of God. If one is not circumcised, he is to be cut off from his people, but it says nothing about being cut off from God. Furthermore, God never says He will abandon Israel if they rebel. This, it would seem, is to keep consistent with His promise of an everlasting covenant.

Some attempt to say that Christians supplant Jews as Abraham’s descendents, but in the case of the covenant in Genesis 17 this line of thinking simply does not work. Canaan is promised to Abraham’s descendents. If, for the sake of argument, we accept that the Church has replaced the Jews, we would have to argue that the land of Canaan is meant for the Church. This brings up two very big problems:

1) The Church is called to go to all the nations of the world and not to establish a government. Christ, Paul, and Peter are all adamant that Christians are to obey the government and give the government what it is owed, but none of them come out and say Christians are to establish a government. For Christians to own a land, they would need a government. If this were the case then someone should have left a model for how this government should look – instead, the Bible is silent on the issue. Furthermore, Christians are called to go into all lands unto the end of the earth – it would make no sense for Christians to inhabit the land of Canaan when they are to be everywhere.

2) Were the Jews illegally holding the land of Israel prior to the incarnation of Christ? If Abraham’s promise was meant for the Church, then why was the land promised to Israel delivered to them by God when it was meant for God’s faithful?
These are the problems presented when people attempt to supplant Israel with the Church in Genesis 17. It simply makes more sense that Genesis 17 is meant for Israel; being meant for Israel, one can assume the covenant is truly eternal, meaning the modern state of Israel is a partial fulfillment of Genesis 17.

God’s Blessing

Since the substance of the covenant remains intact, it is safe to say that Genesis 12:3 is likewise still in effect. This means that those who curse the Jews will likewise be cursed. Those that bless the Jews will likewise be blessed. Though a Jew might be lost and have no salvation, they hold a special place in God’s heart, so special in fact that if one is to harm him, and then one will suffer great consequences. Looking throughout history this has proven to be the case. Babylon, Assyria, Rome, Egypt, Canaan, Germany, Russia, the Papal States, and many others have all cursed the Jews and done great harm to the Jews. In return, these nations no longer exist, exist in poverty, exist in political turmoil, or have suffered great losses of life due to war, famine, or other things. It is no coincidence that any nation who harms Israel likewise ends up destroyed or severely crippled. It is also no coincidence either that the United States is blessed (or was blessed). Jews found refuge in Colonial America when they could find refuge in no other nation. They prospered in America when they were not allowed to prosper anywhere else. For three hundred years, Jews had lived in ghettos and in segregation – yet when they came to the colonies they found peace and prosperity. America should not have won the Revolutionary War. She should not have survived economically. She should not have survived, period. Yet, because of her support of the Jews she became the most powerful nation on earth. God fulfills His promises.

The Two Covenants

One vital aspect Christians must understand is that there are not two covenants within the Bible concerning salvation – there is merely one covenant that is slowly revealed as the text progresses. The “Old Testament Saints” were saved by faith, just as we are saved now. One misconception is that these saints were saved by the animal sacrifices or by following God’s word. However, as Hebrews 11 states, all of these saints were saved by faith through grace. Their works were merely a result of faith.

The salvation covenant was first revealed to man in Genesis 3:15. At that point the only think mankind knew about the Messiah was that He would be a human and He would triumph over Satan. Moses was revealed more information and, as time progressed, more information was revealed about the coming Messiah. There were symbolic acts during these times, however, to remind the people of what the Messiah would do. The animal sacrifices were performed as a symbolic act of the ultimate sacrifice that was yet to come. When Christ came, He fulfilled the covenant – this does not mean He eradicated the covenant and began a new one. A good example is of a child who is excited about opening his present on Christmas morning. For a week before Christmas his parents give him one hint a day. Thus, he would know more about his present 3 days away from Christmas than he did 5 days away from Christmas. When he finally opens his present his waiting and anticipation will be fulfilled. This does not mean, however, that he is finished with the present or has started a new waiting game. Instead, he now has what he has desired and hoped for. Likewise, the saints prior to Christ did not know who the Messiah would be, but relied on God’s promises and hoped for His coming. When Christ came, He fulfilled their hope and completed the covenant so that today we have a full knowledge of who the Messiah is. The salvation covenant that God established in the beginning did not cease with Christ; it was fulfilled in Him.

Thus, the acts that the Jews committed prior to Christ did not save them, but were merely a manifestation of their faith in the coming Messiah – they were saved by Christ’s sacrifice prior to Christ dying because of God’s sovereignty and timelessness. To substantiate this theory, E. Ray Clendenen states, “…since the eternal and timeless God is sovereign over events, He could apply the work of Christ to Old Testament believers in response to their faith, even though they had no specific knowledge of Christ.” Thus, there is no such thing as the “Old Covenant” that had to be done away with, but instead there is one covenant that was fulfilled in Christ.
The significance in this is that many people say the Church has replaced Israel because of the change in the covenants. If, however, there was no change in the covenants, then Israel has not been replaced. The salvation aspect of the covenant was merely opened to Gentiles. If this is the case then Jews cannot be rejected by God or no longer chosen as this would drastically alter the covenant God established – in fact, He would be guilty of violating the covenant He made (as it would no longer be everlasting). Thus, the fact that there is only one covenant proves that the Jews are still chosen.

Hebrews 8

The passage of Hebrews 8 would seemingly contradict the above, but it fails to do so under proper interpretation. Though the words “old” and “new” are used, these are merely referring to the form of the covenant and not the substance of the covenant. The “new” covenant has changed in its form because it no longer requires “shadow events.” The “old” covenant required adherence to the law, sacrifices, ceremonies, and many other things that served as a shadow of what was to come. The “new” covenant no longer needs that as Christ has come and we are to focus on Him. In both instances, the form – how the covenant is practiced – is different, thus one is “old” and one is “new.” The substance – that one is saved through faith in the Messiah – remains unchanged.

One might point to Hebrews 8:10 and show that Israel does not fit this description, thus the covenant made with Israel is no longer in effect. Not only would this statement contradict all the evidence brought forth (and thus show the Bible to have a contradiction), but it would assume that 8:10 has already been fulfilled. Can any ethnicity be said to fill 8:10? In fact, can any Christian – dead or alive – fulfill Hebrews 8:10? It states that God’s law will be embedded on the hearts and minds of the people and that the people will follow God’s law. Unless there is a Christian in this world that has ceased sinning, Hebrews 8:10 has yet to be fulfilled. Though the substance of the covenant is fulfilled, the form of the covenant has yet to be fulfilled. Instead, Hebrews 8:10 is referring to a future event – when all of God’s saints are in Heaven – where all of His children will be perfect and will no longer sin. Thus, nothing in Hebrews 8 disproves that there is one salvific covenant and that Israel is still a part of that covenant (though she will not wholly accept this covenant until a future date).

timmyb
Jul 13th 2008, 11:04 PM
The reality is that the apostles were Christians... and Jews.... by race and nature... true Jews... true Jews are those who have adopted into the covenant... they are natural branches... every Gentile who comes to Messiah is a wild olive branch grafted in to a natural tree... as we share the same tree, we also share the same benefits of that same tree...

If it weren't for the Jews we wouldn't have the Bible that these forums were created to discuss...

If it weren't for the Jews we wouldn't have Jesus...

If it weren't for the Jews we wouldn't know God...

If it weren't for the Jews we would be damned to hell...

So, that's a good reason that we should appreciate the Jews...

The nation of Israel gives us one of our main purposes that God raised us up... We are to provoke Israel to jealousy... The responsibility of the nation of Israel was to lead the world to God.. they failed in that respect... so now the mantle is in our hands...

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?


keep in mind that Gentiles were already being saved... it wasn't that what Paul was talking about... God was giving the Gentiles the leadership role in leading the world to God... but in that God's purpose in giving it to us Gentiles is to provoke Israel to jealousy.. simply because GENTILES are fulfilling the mandate given originally to Israel... something that Israel finds far more offensive than the message of the cross

but the realization of Israel coming back to the Lord is not just another soul... their culture says so much of the Messiah and their feasts and ordinances, while obsolete by the new covenant standards testify of God's holiness! This is something the church needs in this day and this hour... because our boasting against them has screwed up the church so much in so many ways...

We need Israel and Israel needs Jesus... It's my opinion that the Messianic Jew is the greatest ally that the Church can have today yet the movement is largely ignored by the mainstream body of Christ... It was to THEM that the law, the covenants, the promises, and the glory was given...

losthorizon
Jul 13th 2008, 11:16 PM
This wasn't a term paper (as though that somehow makes your argument valid).

Fair enough though - now it's part of the thread [parts of it at least] (in fact, this article gives an in-depth reply to the OP and answers the question succinctly).
And what point(s) are you succinctly making from your paper to support your position - I haven't seen it yet.

timmyb
Jul 13th 2008, 11:19 PM
to be honest... that's too much for me to even care to read... no offense

losthorizon
Jul 13th 2008, 11:26 PM
to be honest... that's too much for me to even care to read... no offense
I have to agree - three important words - summation - summation - summation…

apothanein kerdos
Jul 14th 2008, 12:57 AM
And what point(s) are you succinctly making from your paper to support your position - I haven't seen it yet.

The entire thing works as a stone bridge - each point is supported by the other.

The summarization is this:

Salvation has always been available through faith and never through the Law

Not all the Jews were saved in the Old Testament - instead, there was merely a remnant that was saved

Ethnicity doesn't save anyone

The Jews have been chosen as a people to stand for the promise of God

The Jews are still chosen today as a people and as an example of God's faithfulness

The practitioners of Judaism are misguided and are not chosen for salvation (they are left over from the Pharisaical tradition)

The Church and Israel (physical, the Jewish people) are not the same. Physical Israel had a different function than the Church.

Look, if you're not willing to read the entire thing and look at the evidence presented, how can either one of us hope to have a discussion when you're not willing to take the time to read my position? It comes across as "I want to win an argument" rather than "I want to understand your position and see exactly what I disagree with."

SIG
Jul 14th 2008, 01:18 AM
ak--I found the writing to be fully lucid...

apothanein kerdos
Jul 14th 2008, 01:42 AM
ak--I found the writing to be fully lucid...

Thank you very much. I do appreciate that*

manichunter
Jul 14th 2008, 06:58 AM
I have to go with Mr K, only Spiritual Israelites will make it to heaven, those that are Israel inwardly, not outwardly. Those that have a circumcised heart and the torah written on their hearts. God is only saving one tree that will stand before Him as a royal priesthood forever. God does not have to plans of salvation. Salvation is of the Jews as Jesus said. Every one that enters the New Jerusalem must entire through a gate titled after the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Their is no gentile gate for one to enter through.