PDA

View Full Version : The abomination of desolation, what is this



WELL
Jul 11th 2008, 08:09 PM
Mark 13:
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

1 Tim 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For the love of money is the root of all evil:

So by 1 Tim, we can see the root!

I believe abomination is the love of money in the "church".

What do you believe, and why?

HisLeast
Jul 11th 2008, 08:50 PM
Mark 13:
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

1 Tim 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For the love of money is the root of all evil:

So by 1 Tim, we can see the root!

I believe abomination is the love of money in the "church".

What do you believe, and why?

Is that how Daniel describes it?

InHisImage36
Jul 11th 2008, 08:55 PM
Mark 13:
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

1 Tim 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For the love of money is the root of all evil:

So by 1 Tim, we can see the root!

I believe abomination is the love of money in the "church".

What do you believe, and why?

It was the destruction of Jerusalem. That is why those who were in Judaea were to run to the mountains.

WELL
Jul 11th 2008, 11:09 PM
Is that how Daniel describes it?

Well, I was hoping you would tell me please. How do you see it?

Clifton
Jul 11th 2008, 11:20 PM
Mark 13:
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

1 Tim 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For the love of money is the root of all evil:

So by 1 Tim, we can see the root!

I believe abomination is the love of money in the "church".

What do you believe, and why?


Uh, me don't think so.;)

I'll give the note in one of my Bible's (ISR (http://www.isr-messianic.org/)) Appendix - Explanatory notes:
Abomination That Lays Waste

We find this term in Dan. 9:27, Dan. 11:31 and Dan. 12:11. Then the Messiah, prophesying about the end-time in Mt. 24:15, reveals to us that we shall perceive the "Abomination that lays waste ... set up in the set-apart place," quoting from the Book of Dani'ĕl. This prophecy by Dani'ĕl was filled the first time during the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, but the Messiah was here prophesying about the end-time. Who is the "Abomination that lays waste"? In 2 Macc. 6:2 (we do not regard Maccabees as part of Scripture, but it is an interesting historical record) we find this to be Zeus, or Baʽal Shamen as the Syriac version of 2 Macc. 6:2 renders it – the great sky-deity or sun-deity! Note well: it is in itself an abomination, but it also lays waste. What is laid waste? The True Worship! We read many passages in Scripture about the laying waste of the True Worship.
Blessings.

Merton
Jul 11th 2008, 11:34 PM
Mark 13:
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

1 Tim 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For the love of money is the root of all evil:

So by 1 Tim, we can see the root!

I believe abomination is the love of money in the "church".

What do you believe, and why?


I just now saw this after posting in the other thread on the Euro.

I think you are right on the money so to speak.;)



It was the downfall of OT Israel in Christs day and even back when they built the golden calf in the wilderness and the churches end up the same way.

IMPORTANT--
---where churches are not all Church, and the churches were/are established by the Church, but not all churches or the Sealed Church abominate. Rev.9:4 Rev.11:1-2

Remember that the temple in Jerusalem, though established by God and built to His design, was overlaid with worldly glory and abominated through the WORSHIP of MONEY by Herod and approved of by many of the people especially by people of influence and that much of the priesthood was polluted and altered with Roman approval (the Beast of the time) and using Herod the Edomite as their king, a Roman apointee.



Check out Ezekiel chapter 16.


Merton.

cwb
Jul 11th 2008, 11:41 PM
Mark 13:
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

1 Tim 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For the love of money is the root of all evil:

So by 1 Tim, we can see the root!

I believe abomination is the love of money in the "church".

What do you believe, and why?

Alot of other versions of the bible translate I Tim 6:10 to say "the love of money is a root of all evil rather than the root of all evil. I am certainly no Greek scholar so I am not sure which translation is correct. When I looked up the Greek words which this verse was translated from it seems that the "a" translation is the correct one. Maybe someone who knows Greek better than me though can help out with that.

theleast
Jul 11th 2008, 11:46 PM
Funny thing is I was getting ready to start a similair thread.

I will be doing a wall of text post on this tonight, not something I typically like to do, but that is kind of the only way to get this point driven home.

jeffweeder
Jul 11th 2008, 11:47 PM
Luke 21 suggests that the AOD is the roman armies that surrounded Them and caused them to be carried off into exile

WELL
Jul 11th 2008, 11:49 PM
Uh, me don't think so.;)

I'll give the note in one of my Bible's (ISR (http://www.isr-messianic.org/)) Appendix - Explanatory notes:
Abomination That Lays Waste

We find this term in Dan. 9:27, Dan. 11:31 and Dan. 12:11. Then the Messiah, prophesying about the end-time in Mt. 24:15, reveals to us that we shall perceive the "Abomination that lays waste ... set up in the set-apart place," quoting from the Book of Dani'ĕl. This prophecy by Dani'ĕl was filled the first time during the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, but the Messiah was here prophesying about the end-time. Who is the "Abomination that lays waste"? In 2 Macc. 6:2 (we do not regard Maccabees as part of Scripture, but it is an interesting historical record) we find this to be Zeus, or Baʽal Shamen as the Syriac version of 2 Macc. 6:2 renders it – the great sky-deity or sun-deity! Note well: it is in itself an abomination, but it also lays waste. What is laid waste? The True Worship! We read many passages in Scripture about the laying waste of the True Worship.
Blessings.

This is interesting. I am wondering about the change that Jesus brought from the old into the new covenant. There was a different revelation. Matt 5, and Luke 6.

And the old covenant explanation above does not take into account; the love of money being the root of all evil.

Rev 17:

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Rev 17 tells us of how the earth will be deluded into the love of the material, read the whole of 17 and 18 to get a fuller picture.

This does cause the final desolation.

Clifton
Jul 11th 2008, 11:56 PM
Alot of other versions of the bible translate I Tim 6:10 to say "the love of money is a root of all evil rather than the root of all evil. I am certainly no Greek scholar so I am not sure which translation is correct. When I looked up the Greek words which this verse was translated from it seems that the "a" translation is the correct one. Maybe someone who knows Greek better than me though can help out with that.

There was no indefinite article ("a", and "an") in Koine Greek, and though there was a definite article ("the"), it works slightly different than English, but nonetheless, many times the English definite article "the" can be placed in an English Translation, and at other times, it would not sound good in a sentence in English.

Anyway, to 1Timothy 6:10, the verse starts out as:
ριζα (G4491) ("root"), so placing the indefinite article "a" is done due to the context, and of course, how the verse is rendered. OTOH, there are times when there is no Greek definite article and in English, the context would require that an English definite article, "the", should be "supplied" into the verse.

Now I understand that in the Aramaic, the definite article is there:

For the root of all evil is the love of money; and there are who have coveted it, and from the faith have erred, and have made themselves enter into many sorrows.
It does not mean that "money" is evil, but the "love of" it is. Love for the Father is to be placed above first, so evidently the love of money must take away from that (i.e. they love money more than the Father).

Blessings.

WELL
Jul 11th 2008, 11:59 PM
Alot of other versions of the bible translate I Tim 6:10 to say "the love of money is a root of all evil rather than the root of all evil. I am certainly no Greek scholar so I am not sure which translation is correct. When I looked up the Greek words which this verse was translated from it seems that the "a" translation is the correct one. Maybe someone who knows Greek better than me though can help out with that.

I'm not sure if this relates to the Jehovah's witnesses translating from John 1 " and the word became a god." which of course id a wrong translation, but Rev 17 and 18 seem to combine with 1 Ti1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
m 6, implying a whole system or government built on the love of the material.

Rev 18:

Clifton
Jul 12th 2008, 12:19 AM
This is interesting. I am wondering about the change that Jesus brought from the old into the new covenant. There was a different revelation. Matt 5, and Luke 6.

Not sure I follow you here - Yeshua's covenant was a blood covenant - as for the old, it was renewed (that is what the original language of the English states) - SOUPED UP - i.e. if you look at another with lust in your heart, you have committed adultery, and talked about murder with words, etc..


And the old covenant explanation above does not take into account; the love of money being the root of all evil.

Uh, it was referring to what is in Daniel, which referred to a covenant to be "confirmed" that was already, or would be in existence - not a Biblical Covenant - there are about 5 Biblical Covenants, though, I quite haven't got them down pat at this time, and can't remember how many are to go (to take affect) - at least one I guess.


Rev 17:

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Rev 17 tells us of how the earth will be deluded into the love of the material, read the whole of 17 and 18 to get a fuller picture.

This does cause the final desolation.

Oh, I have been with the Bible for nearly 4 decades and have read those chapters more than once. ;)

Blessings.
Κλιφτον Ρη Ηοδζες
δοΰλος Χριστός Ἰησοΰς

BroRog
Jul 12th 2008, 12:31 AM
The Abomination of Desolation is the image Antiochus Epiphanes placed on the alter in the Temple at Jerusalem. This took place during the time of the Maccabees. The resulting war culminated in the inauguration of the Hasmonean Dynasty.

Jesus refers to this historical event when he warns the people of Jerusalem to flee the city. Since this event took place within the previous 200 years, the educated citizens of Jerusalem would have been familiar with the account. Jesus is saying, "when you see that take place again, run for your life."

This came true in 67 AD according to Josephus. As it turned out this time, the Jews themselves caused the Abomination of Desolation when they removed the official high priest and murdered him, replacing him with another fellow that, in turn, allowed the seditious men to use the temple as a base of operations.

I believe this event was the signal Jesus meant.

cwb
Jul 12th 2008, 12:49 AM
There was no indefinite article ("a", and "an") in Koine Greek, and though there was a definite article ("the"), it works slightly different than English, but nonetheless, many times the English definite article "the" can be placed in an English Translation, and at other times, it would not sound good in a sentence in English.

Anyway, to 1Timothy 6:10, the verse starts out as:
ριζα (G4491) ("root"), so placing the indefinite article "a" is done due to the context, and of course, how the verse is rendered. OTOH, there are times when there is no Greek definite article and in English, the context would require that an English definite article, "the", should be "supplied" into the verse.

Now I understand that in the Aramaic, the definite article is there:

For the root of all evil is the love of money; and there are who have coveted it, and from the faith have erred, and have made themselves enter into many sorrows.
It does not mean that "money" is evil, but the "love of" it is. Love for the Father is to be placed above first, so evidently the love of money must take away from that (i.e. they love money more than the Father).

Blessings.

Thanks for sharing that. One reason I thought "a" would have been a better translation is because it seems that there was evil even before there was money. The serpent and Adam and Eve did what they did before there was money. Even in the world we live in now, sometimes you see people do evil stuff and money is not even involved.

theleast
Jul 12th 2008, 01:21 AM
O.K. whenever we want to discover a mystery we can always turn to scripture. In this case it is the abomination that maketh desolate.

We know what desolation is that should be obvious. So what exactly is an abomination?

3And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

4For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
6And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
7Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
8And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.
9And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, 10And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.

In these verses we see the scriptures calling the false gods of Solomons heathen wives referred to as abominations. Of course this made our God angry.

3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Here we see useless sacrifices as abominations.

8Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries.
9And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captives, because I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and with their eyes, which go a whoring after their idols: and they shall lothe themselves for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations.

And here we see people whoring after idols....yes fornicating with abominations.

6He said furthermore unto me, Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from my sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations.

7And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall.
8Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall: and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door.
9And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here.
10So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about.
11And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up.
12Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, the LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth.
13He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
14Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
15Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.
16And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. 17Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.

And here we see idol worship, image worship, tammuz a false god worshipped, and sun worship....abominations.

30Wherefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Are ye polluted after the manner of your fathers? and commit ye whoredom after their abominations?
31For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be enquired of by you.

Again idols.

Malachi 2:11 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Malachi+2:11&version=9)
Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god.

Strange Gods.

35Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD:

36Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them; 37Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.

Ah a harlot...a whore with all the idols of thy abominations.

And so what is this abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel?

3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

WELL
Jul 12th 2008, 01:22 AM
[quote=BroRog;1706683]The Abomination of Desolation is the image Antiochus Epiphanes placed on the alter in the Temple at Jerusalem. This took place during the time of the Maccabees. The resulting war culminated in the inauguration of the Hasmonean Dynasty.

Jesus refers to this historical event when he warns the people of Jerusalem to flee the city. Since this event took place within the previous 200 years, the educated citizens of Jerusalem would have been familiar with the account. Jesus is saying, "when you see that take place again, run for your life."

This came true in 67 AD according to Josephus. As it turned out this time, the Jews themselves caused the Abomination of Desolation when they removed the official high priest and murdered him, replacing him with another fellow that, in turn, allowed the seditious men to use the temple as a base of operations.

I believe this event was the signal Jesus meant.[/quot\

I hear what you all are saying. So,if we choose to ignore the gospel part of things(I know there are some who believe we will still needs to a similar trail/tribulation before His second coming), what about the Rev 17 and 18 part to things, and other Rev stuff that 1 or 2 others have quoted above.

Is there a situation of the love of money in the "church"?
What are we doing about it to right this wrong?
It certainly is an Abomination of Desolation even if you disagree with me that it's the one spoken of in Mark 13!

BroRog
Jul 12th 2008, 05:43 AM
I hear what you all are saying. So,if we choose to ignore the gospel part of things(I know there are some who believe we will still needs to a similar trail/tribulation before His second coming), what about the Rev 17 and 18 part to things, and other Rev stuff that 1 or 2 others have quoted above.

Is there a situation of the love of money in the "church"?
What are we doing about it to right this wrong?
It certainly is an Abomination of Desolation even if you disagree with me that it's the one spoken of in Mark 13!

I can't really say that the love of money in the church is notable enough to be the fulfillment of Rev 17 or 18. From my limited perspective, if anything, the abomination of desolation as it pertains to the church is how we treat the scriptures. I don't know what they teach in seminary these days but from what I have heard and observed, our pastors and teachers are incapable of teaching the Bible, and when they attempt it, they butcher it beyond recognition.

resbmc
Jul 12th 2008, 04:12 PM
it is the Dome of the Rock, that for 1400 years they thought was built over Solomens temple, but recently found out it was set up where Daniel said it was to be set up, on the wing of the temple, it sits on the wing of the temple in the Court of the Gentiles. When they set up the Dome, muslems had conquered all of the middle east, and for the next 45 years, tried to conquer Europe, but for the King of Spain, at the battle of Tours, they killed the last 300,000 muslems. Otherwise all of Europe would be speaking arabic today.

threebigrocks
Jul 12th 2008, 05:01 PM
This term is very often taken out of context. If we see it as what is desolate will also be made an abomination - it holds a different meaning. First something is desolate - then it's made worse.


Ezekiel 20


25"I also gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live;
26and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire so that I might make them desolate, in order that they might know that I am the LORD."'



Matthew 23


37"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

38"Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39"For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"


Haggai 1



8"Go up to the mountains, bring wood and rebuild the temple, that I may be pleased with it and be glorified," says the LORD. 9"You look for much, but behold, it comes to little; when you bring it home, I blow it away Why?" declares the LORD of hosts, "Because of My house which lies desolate, while each of you runs to his own house.



First, God causes the land and the temple, the people, to be desolate because of their disobedience.

Daniel 11


30"For ships of Kittim will come against him; therefore he will be disheartened and will return and become enraged at the holy covenant and take action; so he will come back and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. 31"Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice And they will set up the abomination of desolation.



Those who have forsaken the holy covenant (those who made desolate) will find favor with the one who will bring abomination because he who favors unholiness will be angry at that which is holy. He who does so is the anitchrist.

Abomination of desolate. Making an abomination out of that which is desolate.
Whenever I read this, ponder it, I get the feeling of "Just when it couldn't possibly get worse, when bad was bad enough..."

sudds
Jul 12th 2008, 07:27 PM
The abomination of desolation, what is this
Mark 13:
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

1 Tim 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For the love of money is the root of all evil:

So by 1 Tim, we can see the root!

I believe abomination is the love of money in the "church".

What do you believe, and why?
Satan is the abomination that causes desolation.

threebigrocks
Jul 12th 2008, 09:05 PM
Satan is the abomination that causes desolation.

I would have to say that is both ways - Israel has been left desolate for long time, since 70AD and in addition satan will cause his own desolation and be abomination when he sits in the corner of the temple. There are spiritual and physical/literal aspects of desolation to take into consideration.

BibleProphecy
Jul 14th 2008, 01:40 AM
The false prophet ascends out of the bottomless pit (Re.11:7, Re.17:8, Ps.28:1). The bottomless pit is opened at the Fifth TRUMPET, the First Woe (Re.9:1-2, Re.9:12).

I believe that the false prophet will ascend from the bottomless pit 1335 days prior to the Seventh TRUMPET (1 Thess.4:16-17), 75 days prior to the ENFORCEMENT of the abomination of desolation.

The start of the three and a half year tribulation under the beasts of Revelation chapter 13 will occur once the abomination that makes desolate is SET UP (Lk.21:20, Dan.11:31, Dan.12:11 below), and then ENFORCED.

The abomination that makes desolate is a law that will be enacted that will cause that as many as will not worship the image of the beast should be killed (Re.13:15, Re.11:7, Re.12:17, Re.17:6, Dan.8:24, Dan.12:;6-7, Dan.7:21, Dan.7:25, Re.13:7, Re.16:6, Matt.24:9).

The law will be SET UP 1290 days (Dan.12:11 below) prior to the sounding of the Seventh, and final, Trumpet (1 Thess.4:16-17). Thirty days after the law is SET UP (1260 days, or three and a half years, prior to the Seventh Trumpet), the law will be ENFORCED.

When the law is SET UP (Dan.12:11 below) that will be the time that the 144,000 are to flee (Matt.24:15-22).

The 144,000 are protected during the three and a half years of tribulation (Re.12:14) when Satan goes after the rest of the seed of the woman (Re.12:17).


Lk.21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the DESOLATION (Dan.11:31, Dan.12:11 below) thereof is nigh.

Dan.11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE (Dan.12:11 below, Lk.21:20 above).

Dan.12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP (Dan.11:31 above), there shall be A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND NINETY DAYS (1290 days).



Patricia

WELL
Jul 14th 2008, 10:09 PM
O.K. whenever we want to discover a mystery we can always turn to scripture. In this case it is the abomination that maketh desolate.

We know what desolation is that should be obvious. So what exactly is an abomination?

3And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

4For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
6And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
7Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
8And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.
9And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, 10And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.

In these verses we see the scriptures calling the false gods of Solomons heathen wives referred to as abominations. Of course this made our God angry.

3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Here we see useless sacrifices as abominations.

8Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries.
9And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captives, because I am broken with their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and with their eyes, which go a whoring after their idols: and they shall lothe themselves for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations.

And here we see people whoring after idols....yes fornicating with abominations.

6He said furthermore unto me, Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from my sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations.

7And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall.
8Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall: and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door.
9And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here.
10So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about.
11And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up.
12Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, the LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth.
13He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.
14Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
15Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.
16And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. 17Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.

And here we see idol worship, image worship, tammuz a false god worshipped, and sun worship....abominations.

30Wherefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Are ye polluted after the manner of your fathers? and commit ye whoredom after their abominations?
31For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be enquired of by you.

Again idols.

Malachi 2:11 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Malachi+2:11&version=9)
Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god.

Strange Gods.

35Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD:

36Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them; 37Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.

Ah a harlot...a whore with all the idols of thy abominations.

And so what is this abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel?

3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

This is the most insightful post in this thread in my opinion, and I believe needs some attention, as many of the other posts have so far not seemed to bother with looking into this.

It also seems like not many are interested in 1 Tim 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For the love of money is the root of all evil. To close our eyes to the realities of what is around us is an error.

I trust we will all be will to look at realities around us, and as we read scripture, we will grow to love God more, and
Rom 12:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil

RickA
Jul 15th 2008, 01:41 AM
This is the most insightful post in this thread in my opinion, and I believe needs some attention, as many of the other posts have so far not seemed to bother with looking into this.

It also seems like not many are interested in 1 Tim 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil. To close our eyes to the realities of what is around us is an error.

I trust we will all be will to look at realities around us, and as we read scripture, we will grow to love God more, and
Rom 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil

I agree with phaeton426 too. Scroll down to my post in this thread from a couple years ago.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=49440&highlight=RickA&page=2

BroRog
Jul 15th 2008, 01:55 AM
The phrase "abomination of desolation" is not something to be reasoned out from the definitions of the words. It's a technical phrase which comes from Daniel's prophecy and it has a specific application to a particular time and place in history.

RickA
Jul 15th 2008, 02:02 AM
Ah a harlot...a whore with all the idols of thy abominations.

And so what is this abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel?

3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Re 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/7058/rcc1bm7.jpg

decked with gold and precious stones and pearls

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/2100/popeinaugural16kl.jpg http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/5116/popeingold0kv.jpg

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/2356/ist2686929shellwithglasspearl7.jpg

having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4331/josephratzingermass0az.jpg

Re 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Re 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought.

Rome

Edit to add...getting back the main question again...I believe the abomination of desolation will be a statue of Mary placed in the rebuilt temple.

Millions of people already worship this idol. Its very simple.

threebigrocks
Jul 15th 2008, 03:41 AM
Edit to add...getting back the main question again...I believe the abomination of desolation will be a statue of Mary placed in the rebuilt temple.

Millions of people already worship this idol. Its very simple.

Hummm. Interesting, although brought up many time in the past. However:

Daniel 9:27

"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

One will come, and we know it is antichrist who is a him. So it can't be a statue of a woman - it will be a man of flesh.

Romulus
Jul 15th 2008, 01:23 PM
[quote=BroRog;1706683]The Abomination of Desolation is the image Antiochus Epiphanes placed on the alter in the Temple at Jerusalem. This took place during the time of the Maccabees. The resulting war culminated in the inauguration of the Hasmonean Dynasty.

Jesus refers to this historical event when he warns the people of Jerusalem to flee the city. Since this event took place within the previous 200 years, the educated citizens of Jerusalem would have been familiar with the account. Jesus is saying, "when you see that take place again, run for your life."

This came true in 67 AD according to Josephus. As it turned out this time, the Jews themselves caused the Abomination of Desolation when they removed the official high priest and murdered him, replacing him with another fellow that, in turn, allowed the seditious men to use the temple as a base of operations.

I believe this event was the signal Jesus meant.[/quot\

I hear what you all are saying. So,if we choose to ignore the gospel part of things(I know there are some who believe we will still needs to a similar trail/tribulation before His second coming), what about the Rev 17 and 18 part to things, and other Rev stuff that 1 or 2 others have quoted above.

Is there a situation of the love of money in the "church"?
What are we doing about it to right this wrong?
It certainly is an Abomination of Desolation even if you disagree with me that it's the one spoken of in Mark 13!

I agree with you on the date of 67 A.D. of the AoD but the sight of this "abomination" was to be a warning for Judea to flee to the mountains. By the time the high priest was murdered, was way into the siege of Jerusalem and this was too late for anyone to escape.

According to Luke 21, the abomination is the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem.

Matthew 24

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luke 21

[B]20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

This is a historical event that occurred in 67 A.D. Titus and the armies of Rome came and surrounded Jerusalem to stop the rebellion occuring within it's walls. For no reason whatsoever, they suddenly left giving the ones who headed Christ's warning to flee to the mountains of Pella just as scripture said. Titus then returned in February 67 A.D. and began the 42 month/3.5 year siege of Jerusalem resulting in the destruction of the temple and the city.

We must see the term Abomination that causes Desolation as it relates not to us but to God Himself. An abomination is something detestable, so it is something detestable(to God) that causes desolation(s) or a destruction.

How was Rome detestable to God? It was no different then any other heathan nation that was against Him. What made Rome so unique? I believe we have scripture to reveal it to us.

John 19

13When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge's seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). 14It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour.
"Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews.
15But they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!"
"Shall I crucify your king?" Pilate asked.
"We have no king but Caesar," the chief priests answered.

Israel was to be the nation that all others would be saved through. Israel was who Jesus came to first and longed to be drawn to Him. Israel was the only nation in Covenant with God. Jesus was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant and Israel rejected her Messiah and therefore also her Covenant with God. If the very purpose of the Old Covenant was to reveal the New Covenant in Christ's blood then a rejection of Jesus or the New Covenant was a rejection of the Old Covenant or more importantly, God Himself. Without the Son, you cannot have the Father.

Who did Israel reject God for............

Caesar(Rome)

Rome was an abomination to God not because of their cruelty and greed (which was more but no different then other nations such as Antiochus Epiphanes and the Seleucid Empire) but because Rome was the nation that God's bride had turned to instead of Him.

Only the Remnant of Israel(the disciples and other converts, all Jews) was faithful and they became the first of who the gentiles were grafted in with.

theleast
Jul 15th 2008, 02:33 PM
Very interesting posts RickA and also a good post in that other thread.

The only thing I would warn against is that we can't just blame the RCC. While they may be the Mother of harlots...ALL of those harlots (a.k.a. false religions) lead to the same place....hell. And false religions abound today.

Great points though.

theleast
Jul 15th 2008, 02:46 PM
Threebigrocks....

Daniel 9:27 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Daniel+9:27&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Daniel+9&version=9)
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

With all due respect I believe you are misinterpreting this verse.

And he shall confrim the covenant with many for one week...
This was Christ confirming his convenant with his apostles after he was risen.

and in the midst of the week hs shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease...
This was showing that the sacrifices and oblations of the old law now cease to have their same effect. The old law vanished.

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate even until the consummation...

That goes along with this verse also from Daniel...

Daniel 12:11 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Daniel+12:11&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Daniel+12&version=9)
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The words set up and consummation mean the same thing. Until Babylon is fully set up and complete. And he shall make it desolate because all that the abomination does is empty and void.

and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate....
That determined being the seven vials poured out.

Does that make sense?

threebigrocks
Jul 15th 2008, 04:59 PM
If Christ established a better convenant which covers us all now, then why would He set up an additional 7 year covenant? It was not God who caused desolation, man did by not following Him so they were given over to their own evil desires. The 7 year covenant is new and will be on the side of the antichrist.

If this gospel, the one we have now, will be preached until the end, wouldn't a new Godly covenant change what He said would would endure and exist until the end? There will be nothing new.

Judgement will come down on the heads of those who go against God here, but for the purpose of showing them they are in error and not following Him. Sadly, many won't clue into it.

WELL
Jul 15th 2008, 11:52 PM
In a way, I agree with an element of what you both are saying(the last 2 posts).
The evil spoken of by three... makes huge practical sense, and I think Three agrees in part with pha426. I believe as long as we know who the enemy is, we know how to defeat Him/and cronies by God's grace, wether it's a 1 week covenant or not.(whatever that means? It's beyond me right now.)

Just a thought!

BroRog
Jul 16th 2008, 12:21 AM
If Christ established a better convenant which covers us all now, then why would He set up an additional 7 year covenant?

When Gabriel says, " And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week . . . " He refers to how long the confirmation will take, not how long the covenant will last.

He will confirm a covenant; and it will take a week to do it.

threebigrocks
Jul 16th 2008, 12:42 AM
When Gabriel says, " And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week . . . " He refers to how long the confirmation will take, not how long the covenant will last.

He will confirm a covenant; and it will take a week to do it.

It's a 7 year covenant the antichrist makes with many. Midway through the 7 year covenant, or 3 1/2 years, the antichrist will take his seat and proclaim himself to be God in the corner of the temple. That will be the beginning of the Tribulation.

And, it's a week of years - that final 7 - not a literal week as we know it.

immortality
Jul 16th 2008, 01:41 AM
I would have to say that is both ways - Israel has been left desolate for long time, since 70AD and in addition satan will cause his own desolation and be abomination when he sits in the corner of the temple. There are spiritual and physical/literal aspects of desolation to take into consideration.

i agree also that it is both ways, and not necessarily one or the other.

scripture says our body is a temple for the holy spirit, so likewise, it can be a temple for evil.

however, i think scripture makes it clear that the abomination that causes desolation is a future event in the last days:

"He (the man of lawlessness, antichrist, etc) will oppose and will exalt himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." thes 2:4

"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming." thes 2:8

"His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortresses and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him." daniel 11:32-32

true believers, who have the spiritual discernment of the holy spirit, will be able to see through the lies of the counterfeit messiah that i personally believe is soon to make his appearance.

threebigrocks
Jul 16th 2008, 02:38 AM
true believers, who have the spiritual discernment of the holy spirit, will be able to see through the lies of the counterfeit messiah that i personally believe is soon to make his appearance.

And that they will!

And, I agree it is a future event.

theleast
Jul 16th 2008, 02:46 AM
If Christ established a better convenant which covers us all now, then why would He set up an additional 7 year covenant? It was not God who caused desolation, man did by not following Him so they were given over to their own evil desires. The 7 year covenant is new and will be on the side of the antichrist.

If this gospel, the one we have now, will be preached until the end, wouldn't a new Godly covenant change what He said would would endure and exist until the end? There will be nothing new.

Judgement will come down on the heads of those who go against God here, but for the purpose of showing them they are in error and not following Him. Sadly, many won't clue into it.

What seven year covenant?

BroRog
Jul 16th 2008, 03:21 AM
It's a 7 year covenant the antichrist makes with many. Midway through the 7 year covenant, or 3 1/2 years, the antichrist will take his seat and proclaim himself to be God in the corner of the temple. That will be the beginning of the Tribulation.

And, it's a week of years - that final 7 - not a literal week as we know it.

If it was a seven year covenant, it would say, "and he shall confirm a seven year covenant with the many."

threebigrocks
Jul 16th 2008, 03:47 AM
What seven year covenant?

Daniel 9


26"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.
27"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."



If it was a seven year covenant, it would say, "and he shall confirm a seven year covenant with the many."

See above - a firm covenant for one week. If you read prior to this it explains that it is a week of years, not one literal week as we see it.

John146
Jul 16th 2008, 04:05 PM
What does Luke 21 tell us the abomination of desolation is? Keep in mind that the gospel of Luke was originally written to Gentiles who would not be expected to understand what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet:

Matthew 24:15-16
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand ) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mark 13:14
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luke 21:20-21
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21aThen let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;

Doesn't Luke 21:20 tell us that the abomination of desolation has to do with the time when Jerusalem would be compassed with armies and desolated soon after? So, the abomination of desolation is the armies surrounding Jerusalem and getting ready to destroy it. The Roman armies came and destroyed the city and the temple in 70 AD. There was no stone of the temple left upon another, just as Jesus prophesied.

theleast
Jul 16th 2008, 04:48 PM
Daniel 9




See above - a firm covenant for one week. If you read prior to this it explains that it is a week of years, not one literal week as we see it.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I know of no 7 year covenent and my previous post explains how I understand this passage. Besides I don't believe in a singular anti-christ as you all know anyway.

threebigrocks
Jul 16th 2008, 05:03 PM
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I know of no 7 year covenent and my previous post explains how I understand this passage. Besides I don't believe in a singular anti-christ as you all know anyway.

Well, I won't agree to disagree, but will leave the 7 thingy lay.

Was not sin brought into the world by 1 man? Was redemption not brought to all who would accept it through 1 man? Why would there be more than 1 deceiver, there never has been more than 1. Just as Christ has us here in His name, so does satan have those who work and speak on his behalf. Been that way since the 1 man fell.

theleast
Jul 16th 2008, 05:07 PM
Well, I won't agree to disagree, but will leave the 7 thingy lay.

Was not sin brought into the world by 1 man? Was redemption not brought to all who would accept it through 1 man? Why would there be more than 1 deceiver, there never has been more than 1. Just as Christ has us here in His name, so does satan have those who work and speak on his behalf. Been that way since the 1 man fell.

Actually sin was brought into the world by one woman and one man. ;) Eve was decieved first and Adam was led astray by his wife foolishly. The serpent was the deceiver.

Redemption was brought by one man you are correct. Satan has many that work on his behalf. The first beast spoken of in revelation has ten horns. The second has two.

Not one.

DurbanDude
Jul 16th 2008, 06:26 PM
What does Luke 21 tell us the abomination of desolation is? Keep in mind that the gospel of Luke was originally written to Gentiles who would not be expected to understand what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet:

Matthew 24:15-16
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand ) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mark 13:14
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luke 21:20-21
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21aThen let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;

Doesn't Luke 21:20 tell us that the abomination of desolation has to do with the time when Jerusalem would be compassed with armies and desolated soon after? So, the abomination of desolation is the armies surrounding Jerusalem and getting ready to destroy it. The Roman armies came and destroyed the city and the temple in 70 AD. There was no stone of the temple left upon another, just as Jesus prophesied.

John146 , I do completely disagree with you , but must admit , the way you have compared those three verses you do make a good point , will have to look into this.

DurbanDude
Jul 16th 2008, 06:34 PM
I thought there was general and obvious consensus on what the abomination is , and must admit that I am quite shocked by the various viewpoints put forward. I thought that everyone knew that the abomination was the revealing of the man of sin (except of course for the amills and those that believe the Islamic temple on the temple mount is that abomination)

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

John146
Jul 16th 2008, 06:35 PM
John146 , I do completely disagree with you , but must admit , the way you have compared those three verses you do make a good point , will have to look into this.I don't mind if someone disagrees with me. I think I have made a pretty strong case, though. It would be hard to deny that each passage isn't speaking of the same event. Let me know what you find out after you have looked into it.

John146
Jul 16th 2008, 06:46 PM
I thought there was general and obvious consensus on what the abomination is , and must admit that I am quite shocked by the various viewpoints put forward. I thought that everyone knew that the abomination was the revealing of the man of sin (except of course for the amills and those that believe the Islamic temple on the temple mount is that abomination)

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.That is referring to an abomination, but not the one Jesus was speaking about in the Olivet Discourse. If 2 Thess 2:3-4 is a reference to an abomination of desolation prophesied by Daniel then why didn't Paul mention that?

Many people seem to forget or miss that Jesus was asked when the temple standing at that time would be destroyed. He was also asked about His coming and the end of the age, which I believe is future. But that doesn't change the fact that He was asked about when the temple would be destroyed, and He did answer that question.

What happened in 70 AD in Jerusalem was a bit of a foreshadowing of what will happen to unbelievers globally when Christ returns. Back then, Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman armies. In the future, the church will be surrounded in a figurative sense by unbelievers who are making war with the saints, but then Christ will return and destroy them.

threebigrocks
Jul 16th 2008, 06:55 PM
Actually sin was brought into the world by one woman and one man. ;) Eve was decieved first and Adam was led astray by his wife foolishly. The serpent was the deceiver.

Redemption was brought by one man you are correct. Satan has many that work on his behalf. The first beast spoken of in revelation has ten horns. The second has two.

Not one.

Are you sure about that? ;)

Romans 5


14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

WELL
Jul 16th 2008, 08:26 PM
I thought there was general and obvious consensus on what the abomination is , and must admit that I am quite shocked by the various viewpoints put forward. I thought that everyone knew that the abomination was the revealing of the man of sin (except of course for the amills and those that believe the Islamic temple on the temple mount is that abomination)

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The main point I'd say is to recognize the enemy.
It's pretty obvious to me that ; 1 Tim 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

This is our enemy, so why make a big hoo haa about all the funny things we can't see and know and understand?
Luke 8:
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
All who love money are in the same boat, let's keep it simple!

WELL
Jul 16th 2008, 08:35 PM
What does Luke 21 tell us the abomination of desolation is? Keep in mind that the gospel of Luke was originally written to Gentiles who would not be expected to understand what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet:

Matthew 24:15-16
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand ) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mark 13:14
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luke 21:20-21
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21aThen let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;

Doesn't Luke 21:20 tell us that the abomination of desolation has to do with the time when Jerusalem would be compassed with armies and desolated soon after? So, the abomination of desolation is the armies surrounding Jerusalem and getting ready to destroy it. The Roman armies came and destroyed the city and the temple in 70 AD. There was no stone of the temple left upon another, just as Jesus prophesied.

It's great that these verses have been put together like this!
Yes maybe this did happen in 1 sense in ad 70, but we are encouraged:
2 Tim 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

How do we use this scripture in the light of todays practical events?

Regarding John146's quote above; I think that the part all men will hate you has yet to be fulfilled,Lk 21:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

compare; Rev 12:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John146
Jul 16th 2008, 09:04 PM
It's great that these verses have been put together like this!
Yes maybe this did happen in 1 sense in ad 70, but we are encouraged:
2 Tim 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=55&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

How do we use this scripture in the light of todays practical events?

Regarding John146's quote above; I think that the part all men will hate you has yet to be fulfilled,Lk 21:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

compare; Rev 12:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.Don't get me wrong. I wasn't trying to say that Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are completely fulfilled. Just partially. Christ's coming and the end of the age are yet to come.

WELL
Jul 16th 2008, 09:45 PM
Good that we have an understanding! In the begining of this thread, there were a few hard liners.
What do you think about the love of money part

DurbanDude
Jul 17th 2008, 05:09 AM
The main point I'd say is to recognize the enemy.
It's pretty obvious to me that ; 1 Tim 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

This is our enemy, so why make a big hoo haa about all the funny things we can't see and know and understand?
Luke 8:
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
All who love money are in the same boat, let's keep it simple!

Matthew:
24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

It doesn't make sense to me , how can the love of money stand in the holy place?? Yes the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil , but not all evil. Satan and the nature of fallen man are more generally at fault then the love of money. How does the love of money cause lust? I know if I am being tempted by lust it has nothing at all to do with money.

I agree with you , know your enemy , it is as follows in Luke:

21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting (dissipation - weak faith) , and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

When we see the abomination we must be careful not to be deceived or have weak faith , so that we do not fall and take the mark. This is a very serious and uncomplicated warning.

Romulus
Jul 17th 2008, 01:38 PM
Don't get me wrong. I wasn't trying to say that Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are completely fulfilled. Just partially. Christ's coming and the end of the age are yet to come.

Question?

If these scriptures are not fulfilled(or mostly) then how many ages are there?

The disciples were asking Jesus about the temple and of the "end of the age". Hebrews was clear that an age was ending.

Hebrews 9

25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Ther age had not ended yet, but was about to. There are only two ages in scripture. The Old Covenant age and the New Covenant age. Hebrews forces that an age was about to end soon. If this is not the age spoken of in the Olivet Discourse then the scripture has completely overlooked one age for a future one and there is absolutely nothing grammatical to suggest that.

I believe the following scripture helps us understand it further:

Hebrews 9

7But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. 9This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper.

The way for us into the most holy place could not be disclosed while the first tabernacle was still standing. That was the temple in Jerusalem. The sign of the end of the age was the destruction of the last sign of the only other age in scripture, the Old Covenant age. The temple was that sign.

This is now in harmony with what the disciples were asking Jesus. They were associating the destruction of the temple with the end of the age. I believe they are the same event. Hebrews is clear that an age was about to end and that the destruction of the temple would innaugerate the way into the most holy place or God's presence. If this has not occurred we do not have access to the most holy place or God's presence. Has not this been done through Christ?

If the end of the age spoken in Matthew 24. Luke 21, and Mark 13 has not occurred then how many ages are there? It does not make sense to me that the Old Covenant age was about to end in the destruction of the last sign of that age, the temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and all scriptures in the Olivet Discourse completely overlook that age in favor of a future one 2000+ years later.

:hmm:

theleast
Jul 17th 2008, 02:10 PM
Are you sure about that? ;)

Romans 5

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

John146
Jul 17th 2008, 02:39 PM
Question?

If these scriptures are not fulfilled(or mostly) then how many ages are there?Jesus spoke in terms of this temporal age and the eternal age to come. You are mistakenly thinking that He spoke in terms of the old covenant age and new covenant age and that's where your thinking goes astray. In the age to come, there will be no marriage (Luke 20:35). In contrast with this temporal age, where there is marriage (Luke 20:34).

The end of the age has not yet occurred. When reading Matthew 24, you have to look back to Matthew 13 to see what occurs at the end of the age. What is described in Matthew 13 most certainly did not occur in 70 AD.

Also, remember what Jesus said in Matthew 28:19-20,

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Are you going to try to tell me that Jesus was saying He'd only be with His people until 70 AD? Give me a break. He said He'd always be with us, even until the end of the aion (age). At the end of this age, He will return and eternity will be ushered in.



The disciples were asking Jesus about the temple and of the "end of the age". Hebrews was clear that an age was ending.

Hebrews 9

25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Ther age had not ended yet, but was about to. There are only two ages in scripture. The Old Covenant age and the New Covenant age. Hebrews forces that an age was about to end soon. If this is not the age spoken of in the Olivet Discourse then the scripture has completely overlooked one age for a future one and there is absolutely nothing grammatical to suggest that. Can you tell me how exactly Matthew 13:24-30,36-43 (parable of the wheat and tares) and Matthew 13:47-50 have already been fulfilled? Each is fulfilled at the end of the age. You have to look at scripture as a whole and not form an opinion on what you think one verse is saying. The term "end of the age(s), as used in Hebrews 9:26, refers to the entire New Testament time period. It's not used in the same way as it is in Matthew 13 and 24. Notice in Hebrews 9:28 that it speaks of Christ appearing a second time. That has not yet happened. He will appear again at the very end of this age.

If the old covenant time is looked at as an age, then you have to realize that it ended at the cross, not in 70 AD.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; - Colossians 2:13-14


I believe the following scripture helps us understand it further:

Hebrews 9

7But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. 9This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper.

The way for us into the most holy place could not be disclosed while the first tabernacle was still standing. That was the temple in Jerusalem. The sign of the end of the age was the destruction of the last sign of the only other age in scripture, the Old Covenant age. The temple was that sign. You are misunderstanding that passage. Here is verse 8 in Young's Literal Translation:

8the Holy Spirit this evidencing that not yet hath been manifested the way of the holy [places], the first tabernacle having yet a standing;

What the verse really means is that the way into the Most Holy Place (which is through Christ's death and resurrection and one's response of repentance and faith in Christ, by the way) was not yet disclosed as long as the first tabernacle had a place of importance (a standing). Once Christ died on the cross, it no longer had a place of significance. The veil was torn in two.


This is now in harmony with what the disciples were asking Jesus. They were associating the destruction of the temple with the end of the age. I believe they are the same event. Hebrews is clear that an age was about to end and that the destruction of the temple would innaugerate the way into the most holy place or God's presence. If this has not occurred we do not have access to the most holy place or God's presence. Has not this been done through Christ? Yes, and that was accomplished by Christ's shed blood at the cross! Not in 70 AD! You are way off base here. The destruction of the temple did not inaugurate the way into the most holy place of God's presence. Christ's death and resurrection did. You are placing way too much importance on the destruction of the temple, as if that event accomplished what had already been accomplished about 40 years prior.



If the end of the age spoken in Matthew 24. Luke 21, and Mark 13 has not occurred then how many ages are there? It does not make sense to me that the Old Covenant age was about to end in the destruction of the last sign of that age, the temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and all scriptures in the Olivet Discourse completely overlook that age in favor of a future one 2000+ years later.

:hmm:Again, whenever "this age and the age to come" is mentioned it's always in terms of this temporal age and the eternal age to come. The end of the age is the end of this temporal age, which will end when Jesus returns, meets His people in the air, and then destroys all the wicked remaining on the earth.

jewel4Christ
Jul 17th 2008, 02:44 PM
Hi,


13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I find it interesting that through "Eve", the transgression is through "deceit".

The term "woman" in the bible always refers to "God's" wife. First in the account of "Israel" after the flesh, whom went a whoring, and through the deception of following "Bael", and secondly through the "woman" or false "church", that the word of God call's the "harlot", that also goes a whoring after another "god".....also by deception.

That is why it is so important to understand the basics of the gospel message, the milk, or you can be brought to a place where your very "salvation" is cut off, due to following other ways, or other gospels, that of themselves do not have "salvation" offered through them, but we know that satan is a ravaging wolf, going about seeking whom he can destroy, by that very thing, DECEPTION.

Jesus warns us, make your calling and election sure, and that can only be done, if you are rooted in that which is true...to begin with.

The very basic gospel is not even heard of much these days...it has been replaced by two ditches..on one side, you have the ditch of legalism, and the other you have the ditch of osas...the truth is in the middle. We are FREELY saved, but Jesus does NOT leave us in the condition we are saved in, He changes us, and from the INside out. Many are striving to be changed from the outside in...by their own works, for though they have good works, they are works of death, according to Jesus...whom does not accept whitewashed tombs.

peaceandlove,

janet

Romulus
Jul 17th 2008, 03:22 PM
Jesus spoke in terms of this temporal age and the eternal age to come. You are mistakenly thinking that He spoke in terms of the old covenant age and new covenant age and that's where your thinking goes astray. In the age to come, there will be no marriage (Luke 20:35). In contrast with this temporal age, where there is marriage (Luke 20:34).

The end of the age has not yet occurred. When reading Matthew 24, you have to look back to Matthew 13 to see what occurs at the end of the age. What is described in Matthew 13 most certainly did not occur in 70 AD.

Also, remember what Jesus said in Matthew 28:19-20,

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Are you going to try to tell me that Jesus was saying He'd only be with His people until 70 AD? Give me a break. He said He'd always be with us, even until the end of the aion (age). At the end of this age, He will return and eternity will be ushered in.

Can you tell me how exactly Matthew 13:24-30,36-43 (parable of the wheat and tares) and Matthew 13:47-50 have already been fulfilled? Each is fulfilled at the end of the age. You have to look at scripture as a whole and not form an opinion on what you think one verse is saying. The term "end of the age(s), as used in Hebrews 9:26, refers to the entire New Testament time period. It's not used in the same way as it is in Matthew 13 and 24. Notice in Hebrews 9:28 that it speaks of Christ appearing a second time. That has not yet happened. He will appear again at the very end of this age.

If the old covenant time is looked at as an age, then you have to realize that it ended at the cross, not in 70 AD.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; - Colossians 2:13-14

You are misunderstanding that passage. Here is verse 8 in Young's Literal Translation:

8the Holy Spirit this evidencing that not yet hath been manifested the way of the holy [places], the first tabernacle having yet a standing;

What the verse really means is that the way into the Most Holy Place (which is through Christ's death and resurrection and one's response of repentance and faith in Christ, by the way) was not yet disclosed as long as the first tabernacle had a place of importance (a standing). Once Christ died on the cross, it no longer had a place of significance. The veil was torn in two.

Yes, and that was accomplished by Christ's shed blood at the cross! Not in 70 AD! You are way off base here. The destruction of the temple did not inaugurate the way into the most holy place of God's presence. Christ's death and resurrection did. You are placing way too much importance on the destruction of the temple, as if that event accomplished what had already been accomplished about 40 years prior.

Again, whenever "this age and the age to come" is mentioned it's always in terms of this temporal age and the eternal age to come. The end of the age is the end of this temporal age, which will end when Jesus returns, meets His people in the air, and then destroys all the wicked remaining on the earth.

Hi John. I would love to answer your questions but I think it would derail the thread more than I probably already did. I may start a thread using your questions as the focal point and we can discuss the "end of the age" further. :)

John146
Jul 17th 2008, 04:12 PM
Hi John. I would love to answer your questions but I think it would derail the thread more than I probably already did. I may start a thread using your questions as the focal point and we can discuss the "end of the age" further. :)I don't think you'd be derailing the thread by responding here. What we're talking about here all relates together. But if you'd rather start a new thread, feel free.

WELL
Jul 17th 2008, 06:56 PM
Matthew:
24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

It doesn't make sense to me , how can the love of money stand in the holy place?? Yes the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil , but not all evil. Satan and the nature of fallen man are more generally at fault then the love of money. How does the love of money cause lust? I know if I am being tempted by lust it has nothing at all to do with money.

**1



I agree with you , know your enemy , it is as follows in Luke:

21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting (dissipation - weak faith) , and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

When we see the abomination we must be careful not to be deceived or have weak faith , so that we do not fall and take the mark. This is a very serious and uncomplicated warning.


**1
Welcome DurbanDude from the sunny shores of Africa.Keep up the good things and the waves mun!

Ok, this is just my view, and I'm not God!
If the love of money is the root, then it is the root, so perhaps lust is in there too? Maybe if you give away your possesions to the poor, you will have less lust? I don't know, but try it? Please note the question marks!

I'm just taking God seriously in this simplicity of truth, combined with
Lk 8:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

There's more I'm sure, but this is a begining place.
When we consider what Jesus said in Lk 8, we see that people fall away at different stages, each one taking a bit longer until we get the seed that bore fruit.

Take it for what it's worth, and if loving money is no problem for you, bravo, and post something to rebuke us or inspire us,(the church) or whatever is on your heart!
**2
What I see is that the love of money is in the church, just for a small example, look at some of the politicians, how they use the church just for money, and how the church uses the policitians for their own purposes,and how the soldiers in Iraq use the church especialy here in the U.S.A.

Mark adds the words;standing where it ought not,and love of money ought not belong in the church-God's people. To quote the verse in Mark 13 :14 fully" But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: "**2

WELL
Jul 17th 2008, 07:09 PM
Question?

If these scriptures are not fulfilled(or mostly) then how many ages are there?

The disciples were asking Jesus about the temple and of the "end of the age". Hebrews was clear that an age was ending.

Hebrews 9

25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Ther age had not ended yet, but was about to. There are only two ages in scripture. The Old Covenant age and the New Covenant age. Hebrews forces that an age was about to end soon. If this is not the age spoken of in the Olivet Discourse then the scripture has completely overlooked one age for a future one and there is absolutely nothing grammatical to suggest that.

I believe the following scripture helps us understand it further:

Hebrews 9

7But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. 9This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper.

The way for us into the most holy place could not be disclosed while the first tabernacle was still standing. That was the temple in Jerusalem. The sign of the end of the age was the destruction of the last sign of the only other age in scripture, the Old Covenant age. The temple was that sign.

This is now in harmony with what the disciples were asking Jesus. They were associating the destruction of the temple with the end of the age. I believe they are the same event. Hebrews is clear that an age was about to end and that the destruction of the temple would innaugerate the way into the most holy place or God's presence. If this has not occurred we do not have access to the most holy place or God's presence. Has not this been done through Christ?

If the end of the age spoken in Matthew 24. Luke 21, and Mark 13 has not occurred then how many ages are there? It does not make sense to me that the Old Covenant age was about to end in the destruction of the last sign of that age, the temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and all scriptures in the Olivet Discourse completely overlook that age in favor of a future one 2000+ years later.

:hmm:

Has it all happened in ad 70 ?

BibleProphecy
Jul 17th 2008, 07:36 PM
Daniel 9:27
Misconception of the False Prophet and a Seven-Year Covenant



The beast/false prophet (Re.13:11) will not be on the world scene seven years prior to the Seventh Trumpet (1 Thess.4:16-17) to be able make a seven-year covenant.


The beast/false prophet will ascend from the bottomless pit (Re.9:1-2) 1335 days (3 yrs., 8 mo., 15 days) prior to the ascension.


The beast/false prophet will ascend from the bottomless pit AFTER the beast of Revelation 13:1.


The beast of Revelation 13:1 will be allowed to then CONTINUE (Re.13:5) with the beast/false prophet (Re.13:11) once the beast/false prophet has ascended from the bottomless pit.


The day that saints of the most High come to the 1335 days (Dan.12:12 below) coincides with the beast/false prophet (Re.13:11) ascending from the bottomless pit (Re.9:1-2)


BOTH these beasts will then come against those blessed who have come to the 1335 days prior to the Seventh TRUMPET .


A misunderstanding of Daniel 9:27 (below) occurs when we look at that Scripture as referring to the false prophet.


A misunderstanding of that Scripture also occurs when we look at the time frame of that Scripture as years instead of DAYS, as it is written.


Daniel 9:25 speaks of Messiah the Prince.


Daniel 9:26 breaks the continuity of thought between Daniel 9:25 and Daniel 9:27, so that the "he" referenced at Daniel 9:27 refers back up to Daniel 9:25, Messiah the Prince.


Messiah the Prince is the Prince of princes/Jesus Christ (Dan.9:25 below).


Messiah is the false prophet (Dan.9:26 below).


He (Dan.9:27 below) refers to Messiah the Prince (Dan.9:25 below).


ONE WEEK (Dan.9:27 below) prior to the Seventh Trumpet (1 Thess.4:16-17), Messiah the Prince (Jesus) will confirm the covenant with many. The many during that last week will be the 144,000.


With the slaying of the two prophets (Re.11:8-12), Messiah the Prince (Jesus) will cause the sacrifice and the oblation of the saints of the most High to cease (Matt.24:9, Dan.7:21, Dan.7:25, Dan.8:24, Re.12:17, Re.13:7, Re.13:15, Re.16:6, Re.17:6, Dan.12:6-7). The slaying of the two prophets ends the "tribulation" except for the 144,000 who will endure to be those who are alive and remain at the ascension.


For the overspreading of abominations that have occurred (Dan.9:27 below), Messiah the Prince (Jesus) shall make the earth desolate, even to the consummation and that determined (the seven last plagues - Re.16:1), will be poured out upon the desolate (Gentiles - 1 Thess.4:5, Eph.2:12) remaining upon the earth after the ascension.



Dan.12:12 BLESSED (Re.14:12-13) is he that waiteth, and cometh to the THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED AND FIVE AND THIRTY DAYS (1335 days).


Dan. 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince (Jesus) shall be SEVEN WEEKS (49 days), and THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS (62 weeks, or 1 year, 2 months, 14 days): the street shall be built again, AND THE WALL, even in troublous times.


Dan. 9:26 And after THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS (62 weeks, or 1 year, 2 months, 14 days) shall Messiah (the false prophet - Dan.7:20, Dan.7:24, Dan.7:25, Dan.8:9, Dan.8:11, Dan.8:24-25, Dan.11:36, Dan.11:37-38, 2 Thess.2:4, Re.13:11-17, Re.17:8) be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince (Satan) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


Dan. 9:27 And he (Dan.9:25 above) shall confirm the covenant with many for ONE WEEK: and IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.




Patricia

WELL
Jul 17th 2008, 11:27 PM
Here we go again. I believe God is about us living holy lives, and defeating the enemy. Weather one gets the times wrong, so what?If we are living holy lives God is pleased with us.

It's interesting how 1Thes ends. Chapter 5 begins with;
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
Notice what follows; it's how we live, not what we know, or how I divide up the book of Revelation or Daniel!
Or have I missed something?



1 Thessalonians 5

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

16 Rejoice evermore.

17 Pray without ceasing.

18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

19 Quench not the Spirit.

20 Despise not prophesyings.

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

25 Brethren, pray for us.

26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.

27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.

28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

WELL
Jul 17th 2008, 11:34 PM
Hi,



I find it interesting that through "Eve", the transgression is through "deceit".

The term "woman" in the bible always refers to "God's" wife. First in the account of "Israel" after the flesh, whom went a whoring, and through the deception of following "Bael", and secondly through the "woman" or false "church", that the word of God call's the "harlot", that also goes a whoring after another "god".....also by deception.

That is why it is so important to understand the basics of the gospel message, the milk, or you can be brought to a place where your very "salvation" is cut off, due to following other ways, or other gospels, that of themselves do not have "salvation" offered through them, but we know that satan is a ravaging wolf, going about seeking whom he can destroy, by that very thing, DECEPTION.

Jesus warns us, make your calling and election sure, and that can only be done, if you are rooted in that which is true...to begin with.

The very basic gospel is not even heard of much these days...it has been replaced by two ditches..on one side, you have the ditch of legalism, and the other you have the ditch of osas...the truth is in the middle. We are FREELY saved, but Jesus does NOT leave us in the condition we are saved in, He changes us, and from the INside out. Many are striving to be changed from the outside in...by their own works, for though they have good works, they are works of death, according to Jesus...whom does not accept whitewashed tombs.

peaceandlove,

janet

Yes, I agree 100% and want to highlight the word spoken of above. Notice how practical it is, not full of knowledge and puffed up.

2 Peter 1:
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

It is in Christ; Col 2:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

DurbanDude
Jul 18th 2008, 09:10 AM
**1
Welcome DurbanDude from the sunny shores of Africa.Keep up the good things and the waves mun!

Ok, this is just my view, and I'm not God!
If the love of money is the root, then it is the root, so perhaps lust is in there too? Maybe if you give away your possesions to the poor, you will have less lust? I don't know, but try it? Please note the question marks!


Eish mun , that hurt my bro! I nuh watch no face mun! Jus Jesus.
Only us AfricaDudes get tempted? Nah mun , me and Jesus , we both got tempted. Dont mean no sin , jus washed by His blood. ;)

But my brother , did not mean to offend by disagreeing with your doctrine. I am just saying that I personally don't feel this is a satisfying interpretation of what I feel is a physical appearing of an abomination on the temple mount. Let's just say that I am from a more literal school of thought.

By the way , we do all get tempted , as Jesus did , but that doesn't mean I battle with lust as you implied.

WELL
Jul 18th 2008, 04:42 PM
Eish mun , that hurt my bro! I nuh watch no face mun! Jus Jesus.
Only us AfricaDudes get tempted? Nah mun , me and Jesus , we both got tempted. Dont mean no sin , jus washed by His blood. ;)

But my brother , did not mean to offend by disagreeing with your doctrine. I am just saying that I personally don't feel this is a satisfying interpretation of what I feel is a physical appearing of an abomination on the temple mount. Let's just say that I am from a more literal school of thought.

By the way , we do all get tempted , as Jesus did , but that doesn't mean I battle with lust as you implied.

Sorry bru! Didn't mean it that way, hense all the question marks.

To get to the literal stuff. I don't really know what you mean, but isn't the love of money pretty literal?

We all get tempted, I was offering a POSSIBLE solution, just for the trying out, but victory is victory, so let's all get it together!

DurbanDude
Jul 19th 2008, 08:49 AM
Sorry bru! Didn't mean it that way, hense all the question marks.

To get to the literal stuff. I don't really know what you mean, but isn't the love of money pretty literal?

We all get tempted, I was offering a POSSIBLE solution, just for the trying out, but victory is victory, so let's all get it together!

Cool! No problem. Sorry for being oversensitive there.

The concept of the church being a temple is symbolic , even though we do literally have God within us , a temple was always a physical building. Jesus says we will "see" the abomination , and it will "stand" in the holy place. We can observe the "love of money" in the church , and it can exist in the church , but to actually have the antichrist standing on the temple mount declaring himself as God is a more literal interpretation.

I hear what you say about the love of money , maybe it is more central than I thought , will meditate on this. Maybe when we prove to ourselves with our personal finances that God comes first this will overcome our main spiritual battles. Interesting thought !

WELL
Jul 19th 2008, 11:25 AM
Cool! No problem. Sorry for being oversensitive there.

The concept of the church being a temple is symbolic , even though we do literally have God within us , a temple was always a physical building. Jesus says we will "see" the abomination , and it will "stand" in the holy place. We can observe the "love of money" in the church , and it can exist in the church , but to actually have the antichrist standing on the temple mount declaring himself as God is a more literal interpretation.

I hear what you say about the love of money , maybe it is more central than I thought , will meditate on this. Maybe when we prove to ourselves with our personal finances that God comes first this will overcome our main spiritual battles. Interesting thought !

What's happening with the rugby bru?Are the Ausies giving you ou s a hiding? shoo!

My understanding comes from the N.T. as you pointed out by you- we are the temple, and the church, as seen through out the N.T. is too His us as we
1 Pet 2:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Another very interesting one is 1 Cor 3 :17 "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."In context, it's spiritual, and so lovely!
More;2 Cor 3: 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Here are only two temples; throughout the N.T. we see this two realities coming through;again in Gal 4:25 "For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

Here's some more to ponder on.Jesus seems to indicate the two systems we have to serve today. Luke 16:
13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

I'm not saying this to you directly, but to many who put their focus on the earthly stuff, they are missing the blessing God has for them.
Col 3:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Col 3:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

WELL
Jul 19th 2008, 05:50 PM
Mark 13:
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

1 Tim 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For the love of money is the root of all evil:

So, is God calling Christians to leave Babylon?

BibleProphecy
Jul 19th 2008, 09:53 PM
The false prophet ascends out of the bottomless pit (Re.11:7, Re.17:8, Ps.28:1).

The bottomless pit is opened at the Fifth TRUMPET, the First Woe (Re.9:1-2, 12).

I believe that the false prophet (Re.13:11) will ascend from the bottomless pit 1335 days PRIOR TO the Seventh TRUMPET (1Thess.4:16-17) ascension, 75 days PRIOR TO the ENFORCEMENT of the abomination of desolation.

When the abomination of desolation is SET UP (Dan.12:11 below), 1290 days PRIOR TO the Seventh Trumpet (1 Thess.4:16-17), I believe that the 144,000 will be in Judaea. When the abomination of desolation is SET UP, the 144,000 are to flee into the mountains (Matt.24:15-16 below).


Dan.12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP (Dan.11:31), there shall be A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND NINETY DAYS (1290 days).

Matt.24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


The 144,000 are protected during the three and a half years of tribulation (Re.12:14) when Satan goes after the REST OF THE SEED of the woman (Re.12:17).

THIRTY DAYS after the abomination of desolation is SET UP, 1260 days prior to the SeventhTrumpet ascension, the abomination of desolation will be ENFORCED.

The abomination that makes desolate is a law that will be enacted that will cause that as many as will not worship the image of the beast should be killed (Re.13:15, Re.11:7, Re.12:17, Re.17:6, Dan.8:24, Dan.12:;6-7, Dan.7:21, Dan.7:25, Re.13:7, Re.16:6, Matt.24:9).

The church (1 Cor.10:32) who are blessed to come to the 1335 days (Dan.12:12, Re.14:12-13) prior to the ascension WILL NOT worship the beast. They are those who are seen standing on the sea of glass in heaven (Re.15:2 below) just prior to the Seven Last Plagues being poured out upon the earth (Re.15:1, Re.16:1).


Re.15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.


The heathen (Gentiles - 1 Cor.10:32, 1 Thess.4:5, Eph.2:12) will worship the beast. They will endure the Seven Last Plagues (Re.16:1). They will receive their just reward (Re.14:11 below).


Re.14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth THE MARK of his name.



Patricia

JesusMySavior
Jul 20th 2008, 12:24 AM
abomination of desolation is the antichrist.

once the jewish temple is rebulit, he will declare himself the true God and stand where he ought not to (where Jesus will one day rule and reign).

DurbanDude
Jul 20th 2008, 09:35 AM
What's happening with the rugby bru?Are the Ausies giving you ou s a hiding? shoo!

.

Aussies are too shrewd , we'll return the hiding twice in SA.

But hey , this is an end times forum , no sports allowed here :lol:

2Witnesses
Jul 20th 2008, 10:44 AM
Shalom from Israel,

There is an interesting corelation I am working on concerning the first 7 chapters of Genesis and the Book of Revelation's 7 years of the end of this age.

But as it relates to the AD set up in the temple, chapter 3 of Gens. is the 'tempation' chapter. And this I think, relates to the temptation the AC puts before the world to worship him and receive his mark.

Perhaps the 'image' will be of wood from a tree, a tree like unto the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. ?

2Witnesses

Ps, just a quich follow-up on the post I am working on. The 6th chapter of Genesis is the chapter of man. And the 7th is the chpater of the judgement on the earth, and Noah entering into God's rest.

Susan2
Jul 20th 2008, 03:06 PM
As defined in the original language, abominations are things utterly repulsive. A review of abominations cited in the Old Testament reveal several sins classified by this root word we get the word abomination from in today's language.

Noteworthy of all the references cited in the Word regarding abominations are the seven sins, Proverbs 6: 16-19, cited by God as abominations:
There are six things which the Lord hates, yes seven which are an abomination to Him (let THIS reader understand):

1. Haughty eyes (one who looks to another as he/she is not satisified with what God has given him/her)
2. A lying tongue (a liar) (In the Hebrew meaning this is much deeper - not just telling a white or other lie; it defines a process by which a person devises a false story, seeks to include some details but chooses to conceal other details so that the whole explanation/truth is not being provided in order to deceive or keep from another certain knowledge help back in sin)
3. Hands that shed INNOCENT blood (I'll leave this to the folks who want to debate this)
4. A heart that devises wicked plans (someone who schemes and deceives others in appearing to commit to one thing but secretly plans behind their backs)
5. Feet that run rapidly to evil (need I say more on this one)
6. A false witness who utters lies (one who appears to be a witness to the faith but does not have a pure heart; therefore corrupts the purity of the Christian message in his/her attempts to lead God's children astray by dead/false doctrine) (cited in Proverbs as being one who is deceptive, cruel, utters lies, shall perish and hated by God, the sin of coming from a corrupt heart)
7. And one who spreads strife among the brothers/sisters (one who causes dissention in the Body; easy to identify by observing the corruptions of the flesh versus fruit of the Spirit) (a wolf in sheep's clothing)

Certainly in Daniel, Matthew and Revelation there are references to a particular time frame, person and event. Yet often in the Word God has written more than one story. Is He speaking figuratively? Literally? Both?

Looking at the root word meaning of Babylon, it comes from the word babel, meaning confusion. Inhabitants are described as idolatrous, enslaved by magic, sacrilegious. Within the NT, Babylon is commonly referenced as the city on the Euphrates, the place of Israel's exile, the place of Peter's residence. Yet a prophetic city is cited and it's fall predicted (Rev 14:8 and Rev 18:1-24).

One must admit reading these two references, you kind of get the idea there's no way all this evil could be happening in just one literal geographical location. When I read these passages, I am reminded of where the true battle lies - not with flesh and blood; we are in a spiritual war.

Whether God's final war is accomplished through his elect physically, be it Saints or angels or ? (after all, He is God, He can do all things we couldn't even imagine), or something that occurs spiritually as we have not yet seen manifested, whether all this occurs by linear definition (a certain event at a specific time), or is a process occuring every day until attaining the end result, ? (see above), definitively a reckoning of evil will occur with God as the author with the end result being perfection in Christ Jesus.

I will propose a different way of thinking - reflecting on the definitions, references, the sins closest to God's heart, meditating on how a person gets to this condition to commit these sins so offensive to God that they are referred to as abominations, certainly one of the roots of evil as referenced in Revelation and I Timothy is the lust for money, but...

could this thing we refer to as the abomination of desolation actually be a condition brought on by the biggest enemy of the Church today - the spirit of indifference? As Jesus said (with my paraphrasing) hey, be a red hot poker for me or else, be cold as ice. But don't pretend to be one and then the other (lukewarm). Be PASSIONATE for the things that I AM PASSIONATE ABOUT.....which requires a great deal of intimate relationship building with our Lord and study on the Believer's part to identify the things He really cares about...(He came to set us free from the law of sin and death) (It was for freedom He came).

If He came to set us free, that means until He sets us free, we are in bondage. What does it mean to be free? To NOT BE BOUND BY THE LAW. Sin required a blood sacrafice. Christ was our propitiation forever reconciling God and man. Repenting, believing and receiving Him gives us access to a vertical relationship with God, places us in the heavenly seats to walk the Earth proclaiming His will, speaking it, believing it, living it. Because of this bridge, we have "download access" for use of a better term to a new way of thinking, our minds and hearts are renewed. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, we are FREE. Our minds are loosed from the captivity of the horizontal plain - Satan's playground. We are freed from the spirit of indifference but to SUSTAIN the mind of Christ, we must ABIDE in Him.

Have you ever met a lukewarm Christian? He/she is no threat to the enemy. We have to by faith activate our freedom and be PASSIONATE (a red hot poker) about the things Christ is passionate about. He sings over us, He dances over us, He delights in us. YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bottom line of my point? The message given throughout with all the references to abominations/this particular one (of desolation) is the focus on living a passionate, honest, pure and holy life abiding in Christ sustains us from being influenced by the spirit of indifference which eventually hardens a person's heart and eventually allows them to see what was once so evil as enticing, not so bad, ok, and further leads to a depraved mind participating in global sin responsibility that leads to this final desolation.

WELL
Jul 21st 2008, 04:18 AM
Shalom from Israel,

There is an interesting corelation I am working on concerning the first 7 chapters of Genesis and the Book of Revelation's 7 years of the end of this age.

But as it relates to the AD set up in the temple, chapter 3 of Gens. is the 'tempation' chapter. And this I think, relates to the temptation the AC puts before the world to worship him and receive his mark.

Perhaps the 'image' will be of wood from a tree, a tree like unto the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. ?

2Witnesses

Ps, just a quich follow-up on the post I am working on. The 6th chapter of Genesis is the chapter of man. And the 7th is the chpater of the judgement on the earth, and Noah entering into God's rest.

I' d love to hear some more please. This all sounds so interesting!
My first question for now. Do you think the world needs temptation? What I mean is this; the world is already deceived and lost ;Eph 2:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Is it not the Christians who will be tempted?

How do you relate your study to the abomination that causes desolation, if any?

jewel4Christ
Jul 21st 2008, 09:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1713598#post1713598)
Hi,



I find it interesting that through "Eve", the transgression is through "deceit".

The term "woman" in the bible always refers to "God's" wife. First in the account of "Israel" after the flesh, whom went a whoring, and through the deception of following "Bael", and secondly through the "woman" or false "church", that the word of God call's the "harlot", that also goes a whoring after another "god".....also by deception.

That is why it is so important to understand the basics of the gospel message, the milk, or you can be brought to a place where your very "salvation" is cut off, due to following other ways, or other gospels, that of themselves do not have "salvation" offered through them, but we know that satan is a ravaging wolf, going about seeking whom he can destroy, by that very thing, DECEPTION.

Jesus warns us, make your calling and election sure, and that can only be done, if you are rooted in that which is true...to begin with.

The very basic gospel is not even heard of much these days...it has been replaced by two ditches..on one side, you have the ditch of legalism, and the other you have the ditch of osas...the truth is in the middle. We are FREELY saved, but Jesus does NOT leave us in the condition we are saved in, He changes us, and from the INside out. Many are striving to be changed from the outside in...by their own works, for though they have good works, they are works of death, according to Jesus...whom does not accept whitewashed tombs.

peaceandlove,

janet


Yes, I agree 100% and want to highlight the word spoken of above. Notice how practical it is, not full of knowledge and puffed up.

2 Peter 1:
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

It is in Christ; Col 2:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.


Amen to that.

The whole point even from the garden...was to not partake of the tree of "knowledge" in a wrong way.

True knowledge does not come by that wrong type "tree".

Humility is the key to all true understanding.....;)

peaceandlove,

janet

jewel4Christ
Jul 21st 2008, 10:02 AM
As defined in the original language, abominations are things utterly repulsive. A review of abominations cited in the Old Testament reveal several sins classified by this root word we get the word abomination from in today's language.

Noteworthy of all the references cited in the Word regarding abominations are the seven sins, Proverbs 6: 16-19, cited by God as abominations:
There are six things which the Lord hates, yes seven which are an abomination to Him (let THIS reader understand):

1. Haughty eyes (one who looks to another as he/she is not satisified with what God has given him/her)
2. A lying tongue (a liar) (In the Hebrew meaning this is much deeper - not just telling a white or other lie; it defines a process by which a person devises a false story, seeks to include some details but chooses to conceal other details so that the whole explanation/truth is not being provided in order to deceive or keep from another certain knowledge help back in sin)
3. Hands that shed INNOCENT blood (I'll leave this to the folks who want to debate this)
4. A heart that devises wicked plans (someone who schemes and deceives others in appearing to commit to one thing but secretly plans behind their backs)
5. Feet that run rapidly to evil (need I say more on this one)
6. A false witness who utters lies (one who appears to be a witness to the faith but does not have a pure heart; therefore corrupts the purity of the Christian message in his/her attempts to lead God's children astray by dead/false doctrine) (cited in Proverbs as being one who is deceptive, cruel, utters lies, shall perish and hated by God, the sin of coming from a corrupt heart)
7. And one who spreads strife among the brothers/sisters (one who causes dissention in the Body; easy to identify by observing the corruptions of the flesh versus fruit of the Spirit) (a wolf in sheep's clothing)

Certainly in Daniel, Matthew and Revelation there are references to a particular time frame, person and event. Yet often in the Word God has written more than one story. Is He speaking figuratively? Literally? Both?

Looking at the root word meaning of Babylon, it comes from the word babel, meaning confusion. Inhabitants are described as idolatrous, enslaved by magic, sacrilegious. Within the NT, Babylon is commonly referenced as the city on the Euphrates, the place of Israel's exile, the place of Peter's residence. Yet a prophetic city is cited and it's fall predicted (Rev 14:8 and Rev 18:1-24).

One must admit reading these two references, you kind of get the idea there's no way all this evil could be happening in just one literal geographical location. When I read these passages, I am reminded of where the true battle lies - not with flesh and blood; we are in a spiritual war.

Whether God's final war is accomplished through his elect physically, be it Saints or angels or ? (after all, He is God, He can do all things we couldn't even imagine), or something that occurs spiritually as we have not yet seen manifested, whether all this occurs by linear definition (a certain event at a specific time), or is a process occuring every day until attaining the end result, ? (see above), definitively a reckoning of evil will occur with God as the author with the end result being perfection in Christ Jesus.

I will propose a different way of thinking - reflecting on the definitions, references, the sins closest to God's heart, meditating on how a person gets to this condition to commit these sins so offensive to God that they are referred to as abominations, certainly one of the roots of evil as referenced in Revelation and I Timothy is the lust for money, but...

could this thing we refer to as the abomination of desolation actually be a condition brought on by the biggest enemy of the Church today - the spirit of indifference? As Jesus said (with my paraphrasing) hey, be a red hot poker for me or else, be cold as ice. But don't pretend to be one and then the other (lukewarm). Be PASSIONATE for the things that I AM PASSIONATE ABOUT.....which requires a great deal of intimate relationship building with our Lord and study on the Believer's part to identify the things He really cares about...(He came to set us free from the law of sin and death) (It was for freedom He came).

If He came to set us free, that means until He sets us free, we are in bondage. What does it mean to be free? To NOT BE BOUND BY THE LAW. Sin required a blood sacrafice. Christ was our propitiation forever reconciling God and man. Repenting, believing and receiving Him gives us access to a vertical relationship with God, places us in the heavenly seats to walk the Earth proclaiming His will, speaking it, believing it, living it. Because of this bridge, we have "download access" for use of a better term to a new way of thinking, our minds and hearts are renewed. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, we are FREE. Our minds are loosed from the captivity of the horizontal plain - Satan's playground. We are freed from the spirit of indifference but to SUSTAIN the mind of Christ, we must ABIDE in Him.

Have you ever met a lukewarm Christian? He/she is no threat to the enemy. We have to by faith activate our freedom and be PASSIONATE (a red hot poker) about the things Christ is passionate about. He sings over us, He dances over us, He delights in us. YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bottom line of my point? The message given throughout with all the references to abominations/this particular one (of desolation) is the focus on living a passionate, honest, pure and holy life abiding in Christ sustains us from being influenced by the spirit of indifference which eventually hardens a person's heart and eventually allows them to see what was once so evil as enticing, not so bad, ok, and further leads to a depraved mind participating in global sin responsibility that leads to this final desolation.

Just wanted to say, very interesting post.....:idea:

peaceandlove,

janet

BibleProphecy
Jul 21st 2008, 09:55 PM
The Abomination that makes Desolate
1335, 1290, 1260 Days

The beast (king - Dan.7:24) of Revelation 13:11, seen as ANOTHER beast coming up OUT OF THE EARTH (Dan.7:17, Re.11:7), who will exercise ALL the satanic power of the first beast before him (Re.13:1-2) will cause all (encompassing the entire world) both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark (Re.13:17 below).


This enforcement, that all accept the mark, is the abomination that makes desolate (Dan.11:31).

The abomination will be ENACTED 1290 days (Dan.12:11) prior to the sounding of the Seventh, and final, Trumpet (1Thess.4:16-17), the ascension.

Thirty days after the law is enacted, 1260 days prior to the ascension, the law will be ENFORCED.


Gentiles (1 Cor.10:32, 1 Thess.4:5, Eph.2:12) will accept the mark. They will endure the plagues (Re.16:2 below). They will receive their reward (Re.14:11 below).


The church of God (1 Cor.10:32) who come to the 1335 days (Dan.12:12, Re.14:12-13) prior to the ascension will not accept the mark. They are those who are seen standing on the sea of glass in heaven (Re.15:2 below) just prior to the seven last plagues being poured out upon the earth (Re.15:1, Re.16:1).


It is the Sixth Seal appearance of the Lord with power and majesty (Acts 2:20-21, Lk.21:25-27, Matt.24:29-30, Isa.13:6-8, Isa.13:9-11, Jer.30:7, Joel 2:31-32, Re.6:12-17) which will lift the partial blindness of Israel (Rom.11:25).

From the Sixth SEAL Israel will no longer be blind to the truth that Christ Jesus is the Messiah. Recognizing this, accepting the Lord as their Savior, the Lamb, they will become a "new" creature (2 Cor.5:17, Gal.6:15), they will BECOME the church of God (1 Cor.10:32), fellow heirs in Christ Jesus (Eph.2:13-19).


After the Sixth SEAL the world will consist of Gentiles and the church of God (1 Cor.10:32).

Re.13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had THE MARK, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Re.14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth THE MARK of his name.
Re.15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Re.16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had THE MARK of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Re.19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received THE MARK of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Re.20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



Patricia

Romulus
Jul 22nd 2008, 06:40 PM
Has it all happened in ad 70 ?

WELL, I cannot expand on that question since it is against Board rules but I think you have my answer. I do believe the Abomination that causes Desolation is a past event. Jesus was clear that the generation then living would not pass away until all the events would occur.

Matthew 24

34I tell you the truth, this generation[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2024&version=31#fen-NIV-23989e)] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Luke 21

32"I tell you the truth, this generation[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2021;&version=31;#fen-NIV-25850b)] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Mark 18

30I tell you the truth, this generation[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%2013;&version=31;#fen-NIV-24741e)] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

In everyother place that "this generation" is used in scripture it meant a people then living, contemporaries who heard the prophecy. If we accept the plain meaning of the words "this generation" we must conclude that it had to occur within a generation or 40 years(biblical generation.)

Jesus spoke this around 30 A.D. and the armies of Rome surrounded Jerusalem in late 66 A.D. giving the believers time to escape the city to the mountains of Pella. When Titus returned in February of 67 A.D. he began the 3.5 year/42 month siege of Jerusalem. It was fulfilled well within the exact time that Jesus said it would be fulfilled.

:hmm:

WELL
Jul 22nd 2008, 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1713598#post1713598)
Hi,



I find it interesting that through "Eve", the transgression is through "deceit".

The term "woman" in the bible always refers to "God's" wife. First in the account of "Israel" after the flesh, whom went a whoring, and through the deception of following "Bael", and secondly through the "woman" or false "church", that the word of God call's the "harlot", that also goes a whoring after another "god".....also by deception.

That is why it is so important to understand the basics of the gospel message, the milk, or you can be brought to a place where your very "salvation" is cut off, due to following other ways, or other gospels, that of themselves do not have "salvation" offered through them, but we know that satan is a ravaging wolf, going about seeking whom he can destroy, by that very thing, DECEPTION.

Jesus warns us, make your calling and election sure, and that can only be done, if you are rooted in that which is true...to begin with.

The very basic gospel is not even heard of much these days...it has been replaced by two ditches..on one side, you have the ditch of legalism, and the other you have the ditch of osas...the truth is in the middle. We are FREELY saved, but Jesus does NOT leave us in the condition we are saved in, He changes us, and from the INside out. Many are striving to be changed from the outside in...by their own works, for though they have good works, they are works of death, according to Jesus...whom does not accept whitewashed tombs.

peaceandlove,

janet



Amen to that.

The whole point even from the garden...was to not partake of the tree of "knowledge" in a wrong way.

True knowledge does not come by that wrong type "tree".

Humility is the key to all true understanding.....;)

peaceandlove,

janet

Humility and holiness go hand in hand.Keep up your lovely posts!

WELL
Jul 23rd 2008, 12:44 AM
WELL, I cannot expand on that question since it is against Board rules but I think you have my answer. I do believe the Abomination that causes Desolation is a past event. Jesus was clear that the generation then living would not pass away until all the events would occur.

Matthew 24

34I tell you the truth, this generation[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2024&version=31#fen-NIV-23989e)] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Luke 21

32"I tell you the truth, this generation[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2021;&version=31;#fen-NIV-25850b)] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Mark 18

30I tell you the truth, this generation[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%2013;&version=31;#fen-NIV-24741e)] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

In everyother place that "this generation" is used in scripture it meant a people then living, contemporaries who heard the prophecy. If we accept the plain meaning of the words "this generation" we must conclude that it had to occur within a generation or 40 years(biblical generation.)

Jesus spoke this around 30 A.D. and the armies of Rome surrounded Jerusalem in late 66 A.D. giving the believers time to escape the city to the mountains of Pella. When Titus returned in February of 67 A.D. he began the 3.5 year/42 month siege of Jerusalem. It was fulfilled well within the exact time that Jesus said it would be fulfilled.

:hmm:


Please say what you need to say, I'm sure it not against the rules. We want to grow and learn, come on!

I would like to draw your attention to the two sided question asked by the disciples, that shows that the destruction and the end, where two different events, hence Jesus not answering only about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

And again in Luke 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

And again Mark 13, not 18 as quoted above;4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Romulus
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:35 PM
Please say what you need to say, I'm sure it not against the rules. We want to grow and learn, come on!


Full Preterim is against board rules. I can say I believe all was accomplished in 70 A.D. but that's it. I created a thread in controversial issues on Full Preterism if you want to learn more but I can't expand on it here unless it is a Partial-Preterist argument. Anyhow......



I would like to draw your attention to the two sided question asked by the disciples, that shows that the destruction and the end, where two different events, hence Jesus not answering only about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

And again in Luke 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

And again Mark 13, not 18 as quoted above;4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?


I don't see anything to grammatically suggest that the disciples are asking 2 separate questions. Here is the scripture:

Matthew 24

1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

Jesus is stating that the Herodian temple will one day not be standing. He is stating only one thought, not two.

Matthew 24

3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

This is not a two part question. Jesus only stated that the temple would be destroyed. The disciples immediately assumed that the destruction of temple, His coming(in judgment) and the end of the age were one event.

Since Jesus only stated one fact, that the temple would be destroyed, why in the world would the disciples ask two separate questions unrelated in any way to each other? i.e. the destruction of the temple and then the end of the world when Jesus only stated the temple's destruction?

To believe that 2 questions are being asked is to separate the clear grammer that states the disciples were equating 1) Christ's coming(in judgement) 2) The end of the age with the temple's destruction. Again, let us go back to what Jesus stated, that the temple would be destroyed. Why would the entire chapter based on this ONE statement now shift to end of the world(age)? The first statement is the focus of the Olivet Discourse.....the destruction of the temple. Any linquist will tell you that the the disciples question was about the temple and that is all.

Now many believe that the question the disciples asked was only one question, that Christ's coming(in judgment) and the end of the age was to occur in the destruction of the temple as I commented above. We are in agreement there but most believe that Jesus's response to the question, differentiates the 2 events as separate and that the disciples were wrong to equate those events with the temple's destruction.

Here we have another problem, if the following preceding verses were not about the temple's destruction but about the end of the world(age) including the abomination of desolations, wars, tribulation etc. then there is absolutely nothing in Christ's response to the temple's destruction which is exactly what the started the conversation, to began with. More accurately Jesus did not answer their question. Again, there is nothing grammatical to suggest that the next verses which were to happen when the temple was destroyed is about an event 2000+ years later. Jesus did not state the disciples were wrong in their assumptions and He did not differentiate that what He was about to speak was a separate event.

Jesus solidifies this in His statement that:

Matthew 24

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2024&version=31#fen-NIV-23988d)]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2024&version=31#fen-NIV-23989e)] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

To change this to mean a time 2000+ years later is to change the meaning of Genea. In every place in scripture that "this generation" is used it always meant the then living people. To change the meaning to race is not warranted. Also, if Jesus meant the generation that would witness these events would not pass away He would have said "that generation" which He didn't say, He said "this". Also, Jesus never said anything in the scripture that this would be fulfilled in a time 2000+ years later. If Jesus meant another generation other then the one then living, that would witness these events in a future way beyond the disciples the phrase "will not pass away until all these things have happened" makes absolutely no sense.

It only makes sense when we see the present generation, that Jesus is speaking of. In Matthew 23 the last thought that we are left with is the wickedness of the then living generation of Israel:

Matthew 23

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2023;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23955d)]"

Jesus just condemned not a future generation but the then living generation of Israel who were guilty of murdering the prophets. Jesus already states that their house(temple) is left to them desolate. Matthew 23 was all about the then living generation of Israel. Jesus prophecied that their temple would be destroyed. The next thought is a natural grammatical succession to when this would happen and that is Matthew 24. To believe that Matthew 23 is about 1st century Israel and that Matthew 24 after verse after verse 3 suddenly shifts the thought to a generation 2000+ years later is an unnatural way of reading it especially since up to verse 3 is about the 1st century temple.

Matthew 24 is a natural succession of Matthew 23. I am curious to where you see the shift in thought when I find nothing grammatical to suggest anything other then the 1st century since all the events were happening in the 1st century. Please be specific.

Blessings!:)

bennie
Jul 24th 2008, 12:05 AM
the abomanation of desolation.

. what does daniel, matthew and Jesus have in common?? they were all jews. luke was not a jew. he was more greek. the jews and the greeks had a different way of writing and speaking. in luke21 it says about the armies standing around the city, at that point people should flee to the mountains. jesus said the same thing. why? so the christians would flee when the roman armies came. Titus came to destroy jerusalem in 67 or 68AD. He went back to rome when the ceasar of that time suddenly died. he became ceasar and then returned to jerusalem to finaly destroy it.
the armies that was around jerusalem was considered an abomanation!!
why???? the land around the city (fiteen hundred feet) was considered holy. that was the land that was given to priest for there animals. it was pasture land for there animals
please go and read that in NUMBERS 35

when titus finally destroyed jerusalem and the temple only few if any christians died. about a million jews died.


i hope it make sence
bennie

WELL
Jul 25th 2008, 12:24 AM
the abomanation of desolation.

. what does daniel, matthew and Jesus have in common?? they were all jews. luke was not a jew. he was more greek. the jews and the greeks had a different way of writing and speaking. in luke21 it says about the armies standing around the city, at that point people should flee to the mountains. jesus said the same thing. why? so the christians would flee when the roman armies came. Titus came to destroy jerusalem in 67 or 68AD. He went back to rome when the ceasar of that time suddenly died. he became ceasar and then returned to jerusalem to finaly destroy it.
the armies that was around jerusalem was considered an abomanation!!
why???? the land around the city (fiteen hundred feet) was considered holy. that was the land that was given to priest for there animals. it was pasture land for there animals
please go and read that in NUMBERS 35

when titus finally destroyed jerusalem and the temple only few if any christians died. about a million jews died.


i hope it make sence
bennie

What does how many Christians or Jews were killed?
What about 1 Tim 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For the love of money is the root of all evil
and
Mk 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not

standing in a place where it ought not.

Don't you think the love of money IS standing TALL in the 'church ' today?

bennie
Jul 25th 2008, 04:28 AM
What does how many Christians or Jews were killed?
What about 1 Tim 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For the love of money is the root of all evil
and
Mk 13:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not

standing in a place where it ought not.

Don't you think the love of money IS standing TALL in the 'church ' today?


i think you missed mypoint?
i was refering to how the language is being used. it was an abomination for the armies to stand where they did, in the holy grounds of the preists. numbers35.
all of Gods laws that are not followed is an abomination.

yes i surely do think that money is standing tall in the church today! mostly in the US though. not only, mostly.

WELL
Jul 26th 2008, 03:57 AM
i think you missed mypoint?
i was refering to how the language is being used. it was an abomination for the armies to stand where they did, in the holy grounds of the preists. numbers35.
all of Gods laws that are not followed is an abomination.

yes i surely do think that money is standing tall in the church today! mostly in the US though. not only, mostly.

O.k, I get you now, thanks.

Good that you can see it. Many just see AD 70, AND DON'T SEEM TO SEE THE RELEVANCE OF THESE VERSES IN TODAYS WORLD.

scorpionmike
Jul 29th 2008, 01:57 AM
Jesus comanded everyone to learn the parable of the Fig tree and that generation shall not pass away untill the abominations of desolations is set up. the Fig tree is the nation of Isreal how crazy is it that this dibanded people reclamed their homeland after almost 2 thousand years wow the parable of the fig tree is fulfilled on May 14 1948. 40 years is a generation and in 1988 the abominations that maketh desolate is set up 1988 satan has been released from his pit set there by Jesus at the cross, Jesus has ruled for a figurative 1000 years and now satan is in charge.

bennie
Jul 29th 2008, 04:01 AM
Jesus comanded everyone to learn the parable of the Fig tree and that generation shall not pass away untill the abominations of desolations is set up. the Fig tree is the nation of Isreal how crazy is it that this dibanded people reclamed their homeland after almost 2 thousand years wow the parable of the fig tree is fulfilled on May 14 1948. 40 years is a generation and in 1988 the abominations that maketh desolate is set up 1988 satan has been released from his pit set there by Jesus at the cross, Jesus has ruled for a figurative 1000 years and now satan is in charge.


hi mike.
welcome to the msg board..

can you please explain more how you got to that conclusion.:hmm:
i think a genaration is longer than that thees days. it is more like 70 years.
where did Jesus rule for a 1000 years. i know it is figurative, waht does that mean then.

thank you
bennie

JesusMySavior
Aug 1st 2008, 03:47 AM
I'm sorry, but preterism is completely off the mark. To say that Jesus is actually here and reigning on earth physically, and we are in the "golden age" is falling short at best.

There is clearly evil in this world and Israel would have not become a nation again had the prophecies already been fulfilled.

Just take a look at the violence around us; the segregation in churches...


if you'd like and have time, please watch this (whether you're a preterist or not), it's a video I made about the end times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8hHlG98Ffk


be blessed.

resbmc
Aug 1st 2008, 05:02 PM
how is Rev 7 years long, and why is the Dome of the Rock that sits on the temple mount, not the abomination, built by the false prophet?

David Taylor
Aug 2nd 2008, 10:05 PM
how is Rev 7 years long,

No Verses in Revelation mention it's duration as 7yrs.



and why is the Dome of the Rock that sits on the temple mount, not the abomination, built by the false prophet?

The temple Mount isn't holy.
Any form of idolatry or rejection of Jesus Christ is an abomination.

Revelation doesn't mention an abomination, nor a temple mount, nor anything being built.

resbmc
Aug 3rd 2008, 04:24 PM
Luke 21 suggests that the AOD is the roman armies that surrounded Them and caused them to be carried off into exile
The Roman armies did not carry people off people into exile, Ephraim, one of the last 2 tribes, was carried off into exile in 724 BC, long before the Romans, it was Judah who was left, and called the Jews then and Today. But what happened to Ephraim, they exist today, WHERE?

seeker_truth
Aug 4th 2008, 10:34 PM
The Roman armies did not carry people off people into exile, Ephraim, one of the last 2 tribes, was carried off into exile in 724 BC, long before the Romans, it was Judah who was left, and called the Jews then and Today. But what happened to Ephraim, they exist today, WHERE?

"Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah,"Isa. 48:1

The Lord declares by Isaiah that all tribes do exist within Judah.. And shall be drawn or called forth by the Lord..

Revelation tells of all tribes being represented during the end time, with the exception of Dan...

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." Rev. 7:3-4

The tribes of Israel where never actually lost, just hidden within Judah...

Romulus
Aug 11th 2008, 05:02 PM
I'm sorry, but preterism is completely off the mark. To say that Jesus is actually here and reigning on earth physically, and we are in the "golden age" is falling short at best.

There is clearly evil in this world and Israel would have not become a nation again had the prophecies already been fulfilled.

Just take a look at the violence around us; the segregation in churches...


if you'd like and have time, please watch this (whether you're a preterist or not), it's a video I made about the end times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8hHlG98Ffk


be blessed.

Just so you understand, no Preterist believes that Jesus is reigning physically on earth. The Preterist view whether Full or Partial is that Jesus is reigning in heaven and that earth is His footstool. Christ's reign was never to be physically on earth but that His throne originates in heaven by His Father and that earth is under His dominion. The Preterist view was that the reign of Christ did not need a physical throne on earth because Christ was God and that His work on the cross took away the dominion of earth from Satan. Those that inhabit the Kingdom, all believers in Christ were to now reign on earth as Adam had once before he gave up his dominion to Satan. Jesus was never to reign on earth physically because His reign was established in the 1st century, not when He would physically come back. Partial-Preterists believe He will come back physically but merely to gather those that are His and to destroy sin totally from the earth(where most of the world are already believers) and to usher in the final judgment and give those that are his their spiritual bodies.

Just a clarification that no Preterist believes that Christ is reigning now physically on earth. Also, in all fairness, Preterists believe that the futurist view is not correct just as futurists believe the same about Preterism. Nonetheless we are all brothers in sisters in Christ and it is okay to believe differently. Both preterism and futurism can be reasonably believed from scripture either way. Most Preterists such as myself, believed in futurism once and it was reasonable to come to that conclusion because we were there to.

We simply believe otherwise now.

God Bless

WELL
Aug 23rd 2008, 11:33 AM
Just so you understand, no Preterist believes that Jesus is reigning physically on earth. The Preterist view whether Full or Partial is that Jesus is reigning in heaven and that earth is His footstool. Christ's reign was never to be physically on earth but that His throne originates in heaven by His Father and that earth is under His dominion. The Preterist view was that the reign of Christ did not need a physical throne on earth because Christ was God and that His work on the cross took away the dominion of earth from Satan. Those that inhabit the Kingdom, all believers in Christ were to now reign on earth as Adam had once before he gave up his dominion to Satan. Jesus was never to reign on earth physically because His reign was established in the 1st century, not when He would physically come back. Partial-Preterists believe He will come back physically but merely to gather those that are His and to destroy sin totally from the earth(where most of the world are already believers) and to usher in the final judgment and give those that are his their spiritual bodies.

Just a clarification that no Preterist believes that Christ is reigning now physically on earth. Also, in all fairness, Preterists believe that the futurist view is not correct just as futurists believe the same about Preterism. Nonetheless we are all brothers in sisters in Christ and it is okay to believe differently. Both preterism and futurism can be reasonably believed from scripture either way. Most Preterists such as myself, believed in futurism once and it was reasonable to come to that conclusion because we were there to.

We simply believe otherwise now.

God Bless

I don t see in major difference, but what I do see, is that There is a problem of the love of money[see OP] in the church, and this love causes has a similar consequence to all "abominations that cause desolation".

Do you agree with me on this point?

WELL
Aug 23rd 2008, 11:36 AM
[quote=seeker_truth;1736425]"Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah,"Isa. 48:1

The Lord declares by Isaiah that all tribes do exist within Judah.. And shall be drawn or called forth by the Lord..

Revelation tells of all tribes being represented during the end time, with the exception of Dan...

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."



"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." Rev. 7:3-4

The tribes of Israel where never actually lost, just hidden within Judah...



We are the tribes of Isreal according to Rom 2!
Is it worth worring about the lost tribes in light of this reality?

WELL
Aug 23rd 2008, 11:41 AM
Jesus comanded everyone to learn the parable of the Fig tree and that generation shall not pass away untill the abominations of desolations is set up. the Fig tree is the nation of Isreal how crazy is it that this dibanded people reclamed their homeland after almost 2 thousand years wow the parable of the fig tree is fulfilled on May 14 1948. 40 years is a generation and in 1988 the abominations that maketh desolate is set up 1988 satan has been released from his pit set there by Jesus at the cross, Jesus has ruled for a figurative 1000 years and now satan is in charge.


Satan has NEVER been in charge, and NEVER will be, even from the the fall of Adam and Eve!

Romulus
Aug 25th 2008, 07:22 PM
I don t see in major difference, but what I do see, is that There is a problem of the love of money[see OP] in the church, and this love causes has a similar consequence to all "abominations that cause desolation".

Do you agree with me on this point?

True, the love of money is an abomination, but one of many to God. Nonetheless the question that must be answered is specifically what is God talking about as an abomination. An abomination is something detestable so in the proper context, that abomination causes a desolation or destruction. Scriptures state prior abominations in Daniel 9 and Daniel 11

Daniel 9

9:27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

Daniel 11

31 "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. 32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.

Most are in agreement that the abomination in Daniel 11 was Antiochus Epiphanes setting up an idol of Zeus in the temple and offering pig sacrifices prior to the Maccabean war. It was the turning away from God himself that is the point here. The abomination has to do with idol worship. The abomination must be seen as something directly against God, and not anything else. A good case can be made that the worship of anyone or anything other then God was this abomination as shown in Daniel 11. The form it took could have been the idol that Antiochus set up which is really allegance to Antiochus himself or the armies that he set up in the same time period. The love of money can be a form of idol worship but I think scriptural and historical information are in unity that the outright rejection of God Himself is what is being addressed here. Back in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes the Jews were forced to worship him and the god's of the Seleucid Empire. Antiochus turned many Jews from their one true God to worship him or be killed. Those that did not, were executed in the most torturous ways. This resulted in the Maccabean revolt and the liberation of Israel from Seleucid rule. The actual abomination must be a sign for all to see. The love of money is extremely difficult to see as an actual sign since it has been around since the beginning of history and then the question must be asked, what sign does it take? Also, we must see the time period as a clue to what form this idol worship takes it's form in. The actual allegience of many of Israel to Anthiochus himself and his empire is the abomination and the form historically was the idol of Zeus or the Seleucid armies that came to Israel that showed Israel's unfaithfulness to God.

Daniel 9 also mentions an AOD which I believe Matthew 24 is referencing along with the historical abomination in Daniel 11 which was well known to the Jews of that time. Jesus stated that:

Matthew 24

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

Here Jesus is referencing the historical AOD in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes and the same future AOD that was spoken in Daniel 9. Matthew was written to a Jewish audience that knew very well what the term abomination was. A Jewish person would immediately be reminded of the time prior to the Maccabean War and the worship of Antiochus Epiphanes/Zeus that was the AOD. I asked a Jewish scholar several years ago and he along with many colleagues did agree that the AOD was some form of idol worship. The Antiochus abomination is what historically most Jewish scholars believe is what is to be repeated.

To understand that idol worship is what Jesus is referencing here is how we understand what the AOD actually was. It must be a sign warning the believers that a destruction was coming. Matthew 24 was clear that those that are in Judea should flee to the mountains once the abomination is seen. Right here is proof that the tribulation that was to occur was not a worldwide event, if it was why did Jesus only give the warning to Judea? The reason was the tribulation was to occur locally, in Jerusalem. Also, the statement that the hope that it should not happen on the Sabbath is a clear reference to 1st century Jerusalem and not the world. Using scripture to interpret scripture we can see what form the abomination took by simply looking at Luke 21:

Luke 21

20"[B]When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

Luke was not written to a Jewish audience but a gentile one. A gentile in the 1st century would have no idea what the abomination was so Luke uses When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies as the interpretation of the abomination. A simple comparison of both scriptures in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 show the same exact event. Both scriptures start with the destruction of the temple and speak of the events that would precede it's destruction. The Roman armies that were to surround Jerusalem were the abomination. Jesus in both scriptures states the time it was to occur:

Matthew 24

34I tell you the truth, this generation[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2024&version=31#fen-NIV-23989e)] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Luke 21

32"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Here we have the same event that must be fulfilled within a generation. A biblical generation is 40 years. Jesus spoke the Olivet Discourse around 30 A.D. to 33 A.D. We know historically that the armies of Rome surrounded Jerusalem in 66 A.D. Then for no reason whatsoever, Titus and Rome left Jerusalem. This gave time to those that heeded Christ's warning to escape to the mountains of Pella. This was the last time anyone had to escape before Jerusalem's destruction. In February 67 A.D. Titus returned beginning the 3.5 year/42 month siege of Jerusalem ending on August 30/31 70 A.D.

So, how were the Roman Armies the abomination when the entire argument I made earlier was that it was idol worship that was the abomination or rather the rejection of God? How did Rome take that form? Well to answer that we simply go to scripture:

John 19


14It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour.
"Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews.
15But they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!"
"Shall I crucify your king?" Pilate asked.
[B]"We have no king but Caesar," the chief priests answered. 16Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.

Israel was the city that all the world was to be saved through. Israel had special favor and was different then any other city. Israel was in Covenant with God. Israel's King was always to be God Himself. Before Pilate when Jesus, the King of Israel was judged, Israel declared that Jesus, God's Son was not their King. Their King was Caesar(Rome). Is this not the same as when Israel back in Daniel 11 gave their allegience to Antiochus Epiphanes? I believe it was greater that the Israel in it's final act of unfaithfullness gave it's worship to Rome but more importantly, rejected God in the flesh. Rome became the abomination, the nation that Israel turned to instead of God. Only the Remnant as scripture states would turn to Him. Was this not faithful Israel? The disciples, and other believing Jews who denied the Beast(Rome) to worship the one true God? The remnant that was thrown out of the synogogues by Israel. Stephen who was stoned in 33 A.D. and said "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." The remnant that was brought before Kings and Princes on account of the name of Jesus such as Paul(beheaded) and Peter(crucified upside down) who were martyred by Nero? Did not Jesus state this would happen before the temple was destroyed?

True Israel, Israel of faith was revealed in the time prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The Remnant of Israel became the firstfruits of the one vine. Gentile believers were grafted in as well. Unbelieving Israel never had a part in the one vine, they were broken off and judged by God for the rejection of God's one and only Son and the blood of the Martyrs.

God Bless!

Ekeak
Aug 25th 2008, 07:55 PM
I believe an abomination is something that is not the way it was meant to be. Like an antichrist.

WELL
Sep 4th 2008, 06:53 AM
True, the love of money is an abomination, but one of many to God. Nonetheless the question that must be answered is specifically what is God talking about as an abomination. An abomination is something detestable so in the proper context, that abomination causes a desolation or destruction. Scriptures state prior abominations in Daniel 9 and Daniel 11

Daniel 9

9:27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

Daniel 11

31 "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. 32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.

Most are in agreement that the abomination in Daniel 11 was Antiochus Epiphanes setting up an idol of Zeus in the temple and offering pig sacrifices prior to the Maccabean war. It was the turning away from God himself that is the point here. The abomination has to do with idol worship. The abomination must be seen as something directly against God, and not anything else. A good case can be made that the worship of anyone or anything other then God was this abomination as shown in Daniel 11. The form it took could have been the idol that Antiochus set up which is really allegance to Antiochus himself or the armies that he set up in the same time period. The love of money can be a form of idol worship but I think scriptural and historical information are in unity that the outright rejection of God Himself is what is being addressed here. Back in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes the Jews were forced to worship him and the god's of the Seleucid Empire. Antiochus turned many Jews from their one true God to worship him or be killed. Those that did not, were executed in the most torturous ways. This resulted in the Maccabean revolt and the liberation of Israel from Seleucid rule. The actual abomination must be a sign for all to see. The love of money is extremely difficult to see as an actual sign since it has been around since the beginning of history and then the question must be asked, what sign does it take? Also, we must see the time period as a clue to what form this idol worship takes it's form in. The actual allegience of many of Israel to Anthiochus himself and his empire is the abomination and the form historically was the idol of Zeus or the Seleucid armies that came to Israel that showed Israel's unfaithfulness to God.

Daniel 9 also mentions an AOD which I believe Matthew 24 is referencing along with the historical abomination in Daniel 11 which was well known to the Jews of that time. Jesus stated that:

Matthew 24

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

Here Jesus is referencing the historical AOD in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes and the same future AOD that was spoken in Daniel 9. Matthew was written to a Jewish audience that knew very well what the term abomination was. A Jewish person would immediately be reminded of the time prior to the Maccabean War and the worship of Antiochus Epiphanes/Zeus that was the AOD. I asked a Jewish scholar several years ago and he along with many colleagues did agree that the AOD was some form of idol worship. The Antiochus abomination is what historically most Jewish scholars believe is what is to be repeated.

To understand that idol worship is what Jesus is referencing here is how we understand what the AOD actually was. It must be a sign warning the believers that a destruction was coming. Matthew 24 was clear that those that are in Judea should flee to the mountains once the abomination is seen. Right here is proof that the tribulation that was to occur was not a worldwide event, if it was why did Jesus only give the warning to Judea? The reason was the tribulation was to occur locally, in Jerusalem. Also, the statement that the hope that it should not happen on the Sabbath is a clear reference to 1st century Jerusalem and not the world. Using scripture to interpret scripture we can see what form the abomination took by simply looking at Luke 21:

Luke 21

20"[B]When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

Luke was not written to a Jewish audience but a gentile one. A gentile in the 1st century would have no idea what the abomination was so Luke uses When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies as the interpretation of the abomination. A simple comparison of both scriptures in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 show the same exact event. Both scriptures start with the destruction of the temple and speak of the events that would precede it's destruction. The Roman armies that were to surround Jerusalem were the abomination. Jesus in both scriptures states the time it was to occur:

Matthew 24

34I tell you the truth, this generation[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2024&version=31#fen-NIV-23989e)] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Luke 21

32"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Here we have the same event that must be fulfilled within a generation. A biblical generation is 40 years. Jesus spoke the Olivet Discourse around 30 A.D. to 33 A.D. We know historically that the armies of Rome surrounded Jerusalem in 66 A.D. Then for no reason whatsoever, Titus and Rome left Jerusalem. This gave time to those that heeded Christ's warning to escape to the mountains of Pella. This was the last time anyone had to escape before Jerusalem's destruction. In February 67 A.D. Titus returned beginning the 3.5 year/42 month siege of Jerusalem ending on August 30/31 70 A.D.

So, how were the Roman Armies the abomination when the entire argument I made earlier was that it was idol worship that was the abomination or rather the rejection of God? How did Rome take that form? Well to answer that we simply go to scripture:

John 19


14It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour.
"Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews.
15But they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!"
"Shall I crucify your king?" Pilate asked.
[B]"We have no king but Caesar," the chief priests answered. 16Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.

Israel was the city that all the world was to be saved through. Israel had special favor and was different then any other city. Israel was in Covenant with God. Israel's King was always to be God Himself. Before Pilate when Jesus, the King of Israel was judged, Israel declared that Jesus, God's Son was not their King. Their King was Caesar(Rome). Is this not the same as when Israel back in Daniel 11 gave their allegience to Antiochus Epiphanes? I believe it was greater that the Israel in it's final act of unfaithfullness gave it's worship to Rome but more importantly, rejected God in the flesh. Rome became the abomination, the nation that Israel turned to instead of God. Only the Remnant as scripture states would turn to Him. Was this not faithful Israel? The disciples, and other believing Jews who denied the Beast(Rome) to worship the one true God? The remnant that was thrown out of the synogogues by Israel. Stephen who was stoned in 33 A.D. and said "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." The remnant that was brought before Kings and Princes on account of the name of Jesus such as Paul(beheaded) and Peter(crucified upside down) who were martyred by Nero? Did not Jesus state this would happen before the temple was destroyed?

True Israel, Israel of faith was revealed in the time prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The Remnant of Israel became the firstfruits of the one vine. Gentile believers were grafted in as well. Unbelieving Israel never had a part in the one vine, they were broken off and judged by God for the rejection of God's one and only Son and the blood of the Martyrs.

God Bless!



I don t have a problem with what you are saying. Living a life of holiness is what s important!

I want to ask the question in the light of now, 2008;
Maybe many of those things did happen in AD 70, we can t say exactly, we were not there, so how do we interpret the bible TODAY. 1 Tim 6, tells us that the love of money IS the root of all eveil, hense the root of ALL abominations. This is a word for us today, is it not?

Lady Ashanti
Sep 10th 2008, 05:42 AM
Mark 13:
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

1 Tim 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For the love of money is the root of all evil:

So by 1 Tim, we can see the root!

I believe abomination is the love of money in the "church".

What do you believe, and why?

I agree...

I believe that just as there were many "types of Christs" before the real Christ appeared. And there has been many "types of A/C" before the real one appears, I believe there are many "types" of abomination of desolations before the final one comes...which is idolatry, and covetousness which "money" breeds especially when it is preached as a focus from pulpits. This has been dulling discernment, and preparing people to receive the A/C when he appears.

looking forward
Sep 11th 2008, 05:33 PM
He says the abomination will be SET UP, so it is something that is built.

faroutinmt
Sep 11th 2008, 06:12 PM
The Abomination of Desolation is the image Antiochus Epiphanes placed on the alter in the Temple at Jerusalem. This took place during the time of the Maccabees. The resulting war culminated in the inauguration of the Hasmonean Dynasty.

Jesus refers to this historical event when he warns the people of Jerusalem to flee the city. Since this event took place within the previous 200 years, the educated citizens of Jerusalem would have been familiar with the account. Jesus is saying, "when you see that take place again, run for your life."

This came true in 67 AD according to Josephus. As it turned out this time, the Jews themselves caused the Abomination of Desolation when they removed the official high priest and murdered him, replacing him with another fellow that, in turn, allowed the seditious men to use the temple as a base of operations.

I believe this event was the signal Jesus meant.

I agree with this, since it is historically accurate. However, I believe that the abomination Jesus was specifically referring to is interpreted in the Luke passage as "...when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near," and is there specified to be the roman armies which would bring the desolation to Jerusalem.

So then, the abomination of desolation is a past event.

faroutinmt
Sep 11th 2008, 06:17 PM
True, the love of money is an abomination, but one of many to God. Nonetheless the question that must be answered is specifically what is God talking about as an abomination. An abomination is something detestable so in the proper context, that abomination causes a desolation or destruction. Scriptures state prior abominations in Daniel 9 and Daniel 11

Daniel 9

9:27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

Daniel 11

31 "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. 32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.

Most are in agreement that the abomination in Daniel 11 was Antiochus Epiphanes setting up an idol of Zeus in the temple and offering pig sacrifices prior to the Maccabean war. It was the turning away from God himself that is the point here. The abomination has to do with idol worship. The abomination must be seen as something directly against God, and not anything else. A good case can be made that the worship of anyone or anything other then God was this abomination as shown in Daniel 11. The form it took could have been the idol that Antiochus set up which is really allegance to Antiochus himself or the armies that he set up in the same time period. The love of money can be a form of idol worship but I think scriptural and historical information are in unity that the outright rejection of God Himself is what is being addressed here. Back in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes the Jews were forced to worship him and the god's of the Seleucid Empire. Antiochus turned many Jews from their one true God to worship him or be killed. Those that did not, were executed in the most torturous ways. This resulted in the Maccabean revolt and the liberation of Israel from Seleucid rule. The actual abomination must be a sign for all to see. The love of money is extremely difficult to see as an actual sign since it has been around since the beginning of history and then the question must be asked, what sign does it take? Also, we must see the time period as a clue to what form this idol worship takes it's form in. The actual allegience of many of Israel to Anthiochus himself and his empire is the abomination and the form historically was the idol of Zeus or the Seleucid armies that came to Israel that showed Israel's unfaithfulness to God.

Daniel 9 also mentions an AOD which I believe Matthew 24 is referencing along with the historical abomination in Daniel 11 which was well known to the Jews of that time. Jesus stated that:

Matthew 24

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

Here Jesus is referencing the historical AOD in the time of Antiochus Epiphanes and the same future AOD that was spoken in Daniel 9. Matthew was written to a Jewish audience that knew very well what the term abomination was. A Jewish person would immediately be reminded of the time prior to the Maccabean War and the worship of Antiochus Epiphanes/Zeus that was the AOD. I asked a Jewish scholar several years ago and he along with many colleagues did agree that the AOD was some form of idol worship. The Antiochus abomination is what historically most Jewish scholars believe is what is to be repeated.

To understand that idol worship is what Jesus is referencing here is how we understand what the AOD actually was. It must be a sign warning the believers that a destruction was coming. Matthew 24 was clear that those that are in Judea should flee to the mountains once the abomination is seen. Right here is proof that the tribulation that was to occur was not a worldwide event, if it was why did Jesus only give the warning to Judea? The reason was the tribulation was to occur locally, in Jerusalem. Also, the statement that the hope that it should not happen on the Sabbath is a clear reference to 1st century Jerusalem and not the world. Using scripture to interpret scripture we can see what form the abomination took by simply looking at Luke 21:

Luke 21

20"[B]When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

Luke was not written to a Jewish audience but a gentile one. A gentile in the 1st century would have no idea what the abomination was so Luke uses When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies as the interpretation of the abomination. A simple comparison of both scriptures in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 show the same exact event. Both scriptures start with the destruction of the temple and speak of the events that would precede it's destruction. The Roman armies that were to surround Jerusalem were the abomination. Jesus in both scriptures states the time it was to occur:

Matthew 24

34I tell you the truth, this generation[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2024&version=31#fen-NIV-23989e)] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Luke 21

32"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Here we have the same event that must be fulfilled within a generation. A biblical generation is 40 years. Jesus spoke the Olivet Discourse around 30 A.D. to 33 A.D. We know historically that the armies of Rome surrounded Jerusalem in 66 A.D. Then for no reason whatsoever, Titus and Rome left Jerusalem. This gave time to those that heeded Christ's warning to escape to the mountains of Pella. This was the last time anyone had to escape before Jerusalem's destruction. In February 67 A.D. Titus returned beginning the 3.5 year/42 month siege of Jerusalem ending on August 30/31 70 A.D.

So, how were the Roman Armies the abomination when the entire argument I made earlier was that it was idol worship that was the abomination or rather the rejection of God? How did Rome take that form? Well to answer that we simply go to scripture:

John 19


14It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour.
"Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews.
15But they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!"
"Shall I crucify your king?" Pilate asked.
[B]"We have no king but Caesar," the chief priests answered. 16Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.

Israel was the city that all the world was to be saved through. Israel had special favor and was different then any other city. Israel was in Covenant with God. Israel's King was always to be God Himself. Before Pilate when Jesus, the King of Israel was judged, Israel declared that Jesus, God's Son was not their King. Their King was Caesar(Rome). Is this not the same as when Israel back in Daniel 11 gave their allegience to Antiochus Epiphanes? I believe it was greater that the Israel in it's final act of unfaithfullness gave it's worship to Rome but more importantly, rejected God in the flesh. Rome became the abomination, the nation that Israel turned to instead of God. Only the Remnant as scripture states would turn to Him. Was this not faithful Israel? The disciples, and other believing Jews who denied the Beast(Rome) to worship the one true God? The remnant that was thrown out of the synogogues by Israel. Stephen who was stoned in 33 A.D. and said "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." The remnant that was brought before Kings and Princes on account of the name of Jesus such as Paul(beheaded) and Peter(crucified upside down) who were martyred by Nero? Did not Jesus state this would happen before the temple was destroyed?

True Israel, Israel of faith was revealed in the time prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The Remnant of Israel became the firstfruits of the one vine. Gentile believers were grafted in as well. Unbelieving Israel never had a part in the one vine, they were broken off and judged by God for the rejection of God's one and only Son and the blood of the Martyrs.

God Bless!

This is very well written and needs no further proof. There is absolutely no need to expect any other interpretation, since these things are proven by comparing scripture with scripture, as well as the whole context of these passages.

Hawkins
Sep 18th 2008, 01:42 AM
It's a process (a rather complicated and prolonged one). And possibly it has already been started;


The Church of England is condoning evolution, gay marriage, etc. What next? Perhaps we can suggest they remove Church from their name?

'The abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong.

Acerohombre
Sep 18th 2008, 02:47 AM
http://http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1489270&highlight=abomination#post1489270 (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1489270&highlight=abomination#post1489270)

Abomination of Desolation....first mentioned in Daniel. It coincides with end time mentioned by Jesus on the Mount of Olives.

Worldly speculation on where the world is going....After a peace accord, a Temple will be built, the Antichrist will set himself up to be worshiped as God, the temptation that will come to try the whole world.

Just remember the Lord's prayer...."and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

Romulus
Sep 25th 2008, 02:59 PM
I don t have a problem with what you are saying. Living a life of holiness is what s important!

I want to ask the question in the light of now, 2008;
Maybe many of those things did happen in AD 70, we can t say exactly, we were not there, so how do we interpret the bible TODAY. 1 Tim 6, tells us that the love of money IS the root of all eveil, hense the root of ALL abominations. This is a word for us today, is it not?

Hi WELL,

All scripture is relevant today, but just because it may have been fulfilled already doesn't mean it holds no value for 2008. The scriptures of the Old Testament were fulfilled in Christ. Does that mean that they have no value? Of course not. Through fulfillment we learn of God's great plan and love for us and how He orchestrated perfectly our salvation. Since I believe that Matthew 24, Luke 21 etc. were fulfilled does not mean they have no value. They are like John 3:16 which was fulfilled but which we all still hear and obey and learn.

All scripture has meaning today. It is how we are to live by. The love of money can become an idol and a stronghold in anytime, not just the first century. What I am referencing though as the "abomination" was historically fulfilled in 66 A.D. Scripture mentions no other, and I do not believe in a dual fulfillment. If it is written once, it would happen only once. Money is still evil but we must not forget the context in who and when it was written. Just my opinion.

aceinthehouse
Sep 28th 2008, 12:19 AM
Strange that book was written....

Obama Nation...:B

The Obama/Nation that causes Desolation...:hmm:

Scriptural or not....That's just freaky!:note:

dan
Oct 8th 2008, 04:52 AM
The abomination of desolation, what is this

What do you believe, and why? Mark 13:
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

1 Tim 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=54&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For the love of money is the root of all evil:

So by 1 Tim, we can see the root!

I believe abomination is the love of money in the "church".

What do you believe, and why?

...That the "Desolation" is the destruction of unborn and that a clone or a fetus is the abomination.

But it appears that someone else may have it right: The Great Sword (a nuclear bomb) will be the celebrated item, and the destruction of the US, or it's military, or maybe all militaries, will be the desolation.

DAN 11:22 And the arms of the fighter shall be overcome before his face, and shall be broken; yea also the prince of the covenant. (Douay)

IS 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
IS 57:2 He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.