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hunterj1
Jul 11th 2008, 09:24 PM
When a man or woman is thrown into the Lake of Fire after the judgment, does he or she burn in a real literal physical fire for all eternity or is the fire symbolic, or does he or she just get destroyed and cease to exist?

Gift of God
Jul 11th 2008, 09:36 PM
It is a literal fire and brimstone, like sulfur, that burns the flesh without killing the person, for all eternity.

keck553
Jul 11th 2008, 09:41 PM
All people are made eternal. It is our choice to spend it with God or be separated from God. Eternally.

hunterj1
Jul 11th 2008, 09:43 PM
All people are made eternal. It is our choice to spend it with God or be separated from God. Eternally.

Okay. Now do you think the fire is literal and physical and burns people or is it symbolic?

keck553
Jul 11th 2008, 10:04 PM
I read once about this. There is a valley (I forgot the details) outside of Jerusalem that the population would dumb garbage and human waste in, then burn it. I read that somewhere in scripture this valley was referred to as 'gahenna' (hell). The other word they used, 'Sheol' could refer simply to a grave. Anyway, it seems to refer to a real fire.

Also, remember this?

Luk 16:22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
Luk 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

Gift of God
Jul 11th 2008, 10:12 PM
There is a good book out about this. I forget the name of the author, but the Title is "23 Minutes in Hell"

Whatistruth
Jul 11th 2008, 10:36 PM
I would be really cautious with that book....I saved man going to hell? Then experiancing some physical pain there.....By spirtual law it cannot happen. Impossible.

Joey Porter
Jul 12th 2008, 02:51 AM
Matthew 25
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

When the Lord returns, is He going to come back to judge literal farm animals? Of course not. All of His words that He spoke during His time on the earth were spiritual, not literal.

John 6
63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

Fire is used symbolically in scripture, even sometimes being referenced as a way of purification.

Zechariah 13
8 In the whole land," declares the LORD,
"two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.
9 This third I will bring into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are my people,'
and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.' "

No, the fire in the "lake of fire" is absolutely NOT literal in the sense of being an earthly, physical fire.

Joe King
Jul 12th 2008, 03:43 AM
I would be really cautious with that book....I saved man going to hell? Then experiancing some physical pain there.....By spirtual law it cannot happen. Impossible.

I have that book and have read Mary K. Baxter's Divine Revelation of Hell. They both were taken there by Jesus and experienced a fraction of the punishment so they could testify on how bad it really is there.

RJ Mac
Jul 12th 2008, 03:44 AM
I would agree with Joey's statement. In Rev. the word of God is the river of
life flowing from the throne. Jesus talks about the water of life, welling up
within. With the Word of God there is faith, hope and love.

Lake of fire shows absolutely no water, no word of God, for all of eternity
which means no faith, no hope, no love. But if you take everything as literal
then God is going to roast people for eternity. I see it as symbolic just as
John says to see it in Rev.1:1 with the word - "signified" check it out in the
Greek - it means to reveal a truth with symbols, the book of Rev is symbolic
and so is the Lake of fire.

RJ

Joe King
Jul 12th 2008, 03:49 AM
Matthew 25
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.



Jesus is brilliant. I can't think of any better two animals to describe believers and unbelievers.

Kate
Jul 12th 2008, 03:59 AM
The Bible says that in the lake of fire "their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched". Jesus made many more references to hell than he did to heaven - it is not a place anyone will want to be. It will be a place of eternal suffering.

threebigrocks
Jul 12th 2008, 04:05 AM
When a man or woman is thrown into the Lake of Fire after the judgment, does he or she burn in a real literal physical fire for all eternity or is the fire symbolic, or does he or she just get destroyed and cease to exist?

To go along with Kate's explination above, we are also told there will be weeping and nashing of teeth. If there was no physical torment, wouldn't there just be silence?

Gulah Papyrus
Jul 12th 2008, 04:11 AM
It will be worse than anything we could ever dream up. Is it actual fire? I personally don't think so, it will be something much, much worse. I believe that it will be more spiritual torment than physical(if at all).

Whatever it is, I'm going to go ahead and pass.

Whatistruth
Jul 12th 2008, 05:26 AM
I have that book and have read Mary K. Baxter's Divine Revelation of Hell. They both were taken there by Jesus and experienced a fraction of the punishment so they could testify on how bad it really is there.

Dont you understand? If he was saved then he entered in to a covenant not even God himself could change. If he did change it then God would be a liar. Now maybe i would agree with you that go could have "showed" him hell. That is possible. But being punished or feeling pain however little would break the covenant. Its simple spirtual law. Punishment is for sinners. If he was really there the blood of Jesus would have kept any demon away I assure you. Its just like the laws we have in this country. There are certain things you just CANT do. Now its been my experience that most christians are very prideful. This post will no doubt fill you with anger and you wont even think about what I just said. May I remind you. Pride and anger like that is a sin but consider what Im saying. We live in an age were anything is accepted by the christian community. No one even stops to think about something if its in a book or on the television. The bible warns us about false prophets but then nobody ever sees them. Everyone always wants to think its somebody on a street corner somewhere deceiving only a few people. But in times like this they are in more places then you think. All I ask is that you really think about what i just said cause its true and there is no way around it. Not unless you want to throw away the bible. The covenant cant be broken or changed. Thats it.



Also dont you think the bible gave a pretty good description? Besides, the only people I know reading this stuff is other christians. Its not helping anyone. However interesting it maybe. Its on my bookshelf but i definatly do not believe it.

Joe King
Jul 12th 2008, 05:34 AM
Dont you understand? If he was saved then he entered in to a covenant not even God himself could change. If he did change it then God would be a liar. Now maybe i would agree with you that go could have "showed" him hell. That is possible. But being punished or feeling pain however little would break the covenant. Its simple spirtual law. Punishment is for sinners. If he was really there the blood of Jesus would have kept any demon away I assure you. Its just like the laws we have in this country. There are certain things you just CANT do. Now its been my experience that most christians are very prideful. This post will no doubt fill you with anger and you wont even think about what I just said. May I remind you. Pride and anger like that is a sin but consider what Im saying. We live in an age were anything is accepted by the christian community. No one even stops to think about something if its in a book or on the television. The bible warns us about false prophets but then nobody ever sees them. Everyone always wants to think its somebody on a street corner somewhere deceiving only a few people. But in times like this they are in more places then you think. All I ask is that you really think about what i just said cause its true and there is no way around it. Not unless you want to throw away the bible. The covenant cant be broken or changed. Thats it.

I guess I don't need to respond because you already concluded my thoughts for me. One question though. What about books on heaven? Do you believe that they could be true?

brakelite
Jul 12th 2008, 06:21 AM
When a man or woman is thrown into the Lake of Fire after the judgment, does he or she burn in a real literal physical fire for all eternity or is the fire symbolic, or does he or she just get destroyed and cease to exist?

I am going to quote Jesus Himself. There will be minimal comment from me, as I think the truth is self evident. Interpretation is unnecessary.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life....
...36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Look up the word 'perish' in the Greek.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Death and life are opposites. Death does not mean life at another address.

Mathew 13:37...He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Ever burnt tares or rubbish in a fire. How long does it survive?

Gehenna was the name of the fire outside Jerusalem at the time of Christ, translated 'hell' in the NT. A place of burning, where all things were destroyed.

Whatistruth
Jul 12th 2008, 06:55 AM
I guess I don't need to respond because you already concluded my thoughts for me. One question though. What about books on heaven? Do you believe that they could be true?

Well like i said before. I believe God can and does show people visions of things. Heaven is possible too. It all depends. You really have to feel it out for yourself. Like the 23 minutes in hell book. I put it up to scripture and it doesnt pan out. Plain and simple. I think we just need to be careful about things taking our eyes off the real problem. People dying and going to hell in the first place. I mean theres nothing wrong with studying things but lets not get into debates about things that are already in the scripture and lets help get some people saved! Its not about pride and too many people have that in the churches today. Theres a war being waged out there. Read about the german troops who went behind american lines. Wearing american uniforms and having flawless accents. Then read about the deaths that occured not only because of surprise but because men were killing there own because they were paranoid. Its the same thing thats going on today. Im not trying to get on anyones bad side. Im just saying like the bible says it. Its time we shed some traditions around this place. I love all you guys. Im not a fighter. Im a lover. Just like Jesus. So lets all be friends no matter what eh?

Joe King
Jul 12th 2008, 11:18 PM
Well like i said before. I believe God can and does show people visions of things. Heaven is possible too. It all depends. You really have to feel it out for yourself. Like the 23 minutes in hell book. I put it up to scripture and it doesnt pan out. Plain and simple. I think we just need to be careful about things taking our eyes off the real problem. People dying and going to hell in the first place. I mean theres nothing wrong with studying things but lets not get into debates about things that are already in the scripture and lets help get some people saved! Its not about pride and too many people have that in the churches today. Theres a war being waged out there. Read about the german troops who went behind american lines. Wearing american uniforms and having flawless accents. Then read about the deaths that occured not only because of surprise but because men were killing there own because they were paranoid. Its the same thing thats going on today. Im not trying to get on anyones bad side. Im just saying like the bible says it. Its time we shed some traditions around this place. I love all you guys. Im not a fighter. Im a lover. Just like Jesus. So lets all be friends no matter what eh?

Why are you assuming that I want to argue? I am listening with an open mind on this. The 23 minutes of hell book as well as Mary K. Baxter's book quote scripture as they go through and describe what they saw. I would just like to know what scripture you compared these books against that would expose them as being false. I, like you, trust scripture more than human writing, so I am willing to follow along if you have anything to the contrary.

Whatistruth
Jul 13th 2008, 06:25 AM
Why are you assuming that I want to argue? I am listening with an open mind on this. The 23 minutes of hell book as well as Mary K. Baxter's book quote scripture as they go through and describe what they saw. I would just like to know what scripture you compared these books against that would expose them as being false. I, like you, trust scripture more than human writing, so I am willing to follow along if you have anything to the contrary.

I havent read the Mary K. Baxter book yet but i think my mother might have it. Im going on pure fact that God is not a liar. I mean if you are entered into the covenant then you cant experiance pain or punishment. If you did it would break the covenant. Thats pretty much just that. Like I said before I do believe it is possible to have visions of such places. Its just the pain part that really let me know its not possible. Those demons in that book would not have even been able to lay a hand on him. He was covered. Now if he had been there before he was saved then that would be believable. Im going to go see about that Mary K. book right now. ;)

daughter
Jul 13th 2008, 09:43 AM
Well like i said before. I believe God can and does show people visions of things. Heaven is possible too. It all depends. You really have to feel it out for yourself. Like the 23 minutes in hell book. I put it up to scripture and it doesnt pan out. Plain and simple. I think we just need to be careful about things taking our eyes off the real problem. People dying and going to hell in the first place. I mean theres nothing wrong with studying things but lets not get into debates about things that are already in the scripture and lets help get some people saved! Its not about pride and too many people have that in the churches today. Theres a war being waged out there. Read about the german troops who went behind american lines. Wearing american uniforms and having flawless accents. Then read about the deaths that occured not only because of surprise but because men were killing there own because they were paranoid. Its the same thing thats going on today. Im not trying to get on anyones bad side. Im just saying like the bible says it. Its time we shed some traditions around this place. I love all you guys. Im not a fighter. Im a lover. Just like Jesus. So lets all be friends no matter what eh?Jesus is also a fighter, isn't He?

Gift of God
Jul 13th 2008, 06:43 PM
That real Christians suffer for the sake of the gospel is a known fact. The man that wrote this book said that he was protected by Jesus to a certain degree. If he was horrified by the experience even though he was protected imagine how bad hell will be for the sinner.

I was recently discussing the teachings of Harold Camping with a friend, because he teaches that Jesus suffered the equivalent of an eternity in hell for every person that He died for, because as God His emotions are much more intense, and in His infinite nature He suffered infinitely. That being the case, imagine what His wrath must be like toward people who reject the free gift of what He has offered them because they insist on trying to be righteous in themselves, or else because they simply want to go on in the pleasures of sin, or both.

If I were the Lord and had suffered like that for everyone and some rejected what I did for them even though I died for them too, I would have extreme wrath against those people who rejected my salvation. Since my heart is being sanctified by the Most High I believe that this is in alignment also with God's heart.

Joey Porter
Jul 13th 2008, 06:48 PM
If I were the Lord and had suffered like that for everyone and some rejected what I did for them even though I died for them too, I would have extreme wrath against those people who rejected my salvation. Since my heart is being sanctified by the Most High I believe that this is in alignment also with God's heart.


Are you sure about that? You may want to read the Genesis story of Joseph and his brothers. Joseph is an OT "type of Christ," and his attitude toward his brothers after they had sold him into slavery is nothing like that which you talk about above.

Genesis 50
19 But Joseph said to them, "Don't be afraid. Am I in the place of God? 20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. 21 So then, don't be afraid. I will provide for you and your children." And he reassured them and spoke kindly to them.

hunterj1
Jul 13th 2008, 09:21 PM
The Bible says that in the lake of fire "their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched". Jesus made many more references to hell than he did to heaven - it is not a place anyone will want to be. It will be a place of eternal suffering.

Do you think that the eternal suffering consists of a literal, physical fire?

brakelite
Jul 14th 2008, 03:51 AM
That real Christians suffer for the sake of the gospel is a known fact. The man that wrote this book said that he was protected by Jesus to a certain degree. If he was horrified by the experience even though he was protected imagine how bad hell will be for the sinner.

I was recently discussing the teachings of Harold Camping with a friend, because he teaches that Jesus suffered the equivalent of an eternity in hell for every person that He died for, because as God His emotions are much more intense, and in His infinite nature He suffered infinitely. That being the case, imagine what His wrath must be like toward people who reject the free gift of what He has offered them because they insist on trying to be righteous in themselves, or else because they simply want to go on in the pleasures of sin, or both.

If I were the Lord and had suffered like that for everyone and some rejected what I did for them even though I died for them too, I would have extreme wrath against those people who rejected my salvation. Since my heart is being sanctified by the Most High I believe that this is in alignment also with God's heart.

Camping's view is a weak attempt to justify eternal torment. The idea that God desires to torture men in fire for all eternity to me is one of, if not the greatest of insults to the character and nature of God.
The fact trhat Jesus did not spend eternaity in a fire is all the evidence one needs to prove that eternal torment is not on God's list of justifiable punishments. Unless of course you believe that Jesus did not take our full punishment.

Whatistruth
Jul 14th 2008, 06:12 AM
Jesus is also a fighter, isn't He?


So what is the "christian" purpose behind playing word games with me? Im not a fighter when it comes to pointless arguements with other people who are christian. I spelled it out for you. Now if you wish to play more word games you will be doing it alone. Im not a christian that enjoys arguements. So have fun.

Whatistruth
Jul 14th 2008, 06:15 AM
That real Christians suffer for the sake of the gospel is a known fact. The man that wrote this book said that he was protected by Jesus to a certain degree. If he was horrified by the experience even though he was protected imagine how bad hell will be for the sinner.

I was recently discussing the teachings of Harold Camping with a friend, because he teaches that Jesus suffered the equivalent of an eternity in hell for every person that He died for, because as God His emotions are much more intense, and in His infinite nature He suffered infinitely. That being the case, imagine what His wrath must be like toward people who reject the free gift of what He has offered them because they insist on trying to be righteous in themselves, or else because they simply want to go on in the pleasures of sin, or both.

If I were the Lord and had suffered like that for everyone and some rejected what I did for them even though I died for them too, I would have extreme wrath against those people who rejected my salvation. Since my heart is being sanctified by the Most High I believe that this is in alignment also with God's heart.


Yes christians of old did suffer but by the hands of men and it was under prophecy that these things would happen. Jesus told them that. Now...Sure Jesus went to hell. Did he suffer there? Not really the point. The point is the man that wrote that book could not have suffered at all. Period. He just couldnt do it. You can believe in every little person that comes along and says something and believe it. Thats your choice. Maybe you should read you bible again. Cause the God your talking about is wishy washy in his promises. If you are covered in the lambs blood. God himself cant even leave you unprotected from hell. Not even to a certain degree as you said. Thats all I have to say.

markedward
Jul 14th 2008, 06:17 AM
I have that book and have read Mary K. Baxter's Divine Revelation of Hell. They both were taken there by Jesus and experienced a fraction of the punishment so they could testify on how bad it really is there.A note: I watched a video of the author of the first book mentioned. In the video he says he was in hell and specifically says that the Greek word for hell is hades. Later on, he specifically quotes verses from the Revelation that refer to the lake of fire. He was quoting both verses referring to hades and the lake of fire.

The Revelation says that hades is thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15).

23 Minutes In Hell simply is not a Biblical book, if the author can't even tell apart the basic Scriptural difference between hades and the lake of fire.

Whatistruth
Jul 14th 2008, 06:27 AM
A note: I watched a video of the author of the first book mentioned. In the video he says he was in hell and specifically says that the Greek word for hell is hades. Later on, he specifically quotes verses from the Revelation that refer to the lake of fire. He was quoting both verses referring to hades and the lake of fire.

The Revelation says that hades is thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15).

23 Minutes In Hell simply is not a Biblical book, if the author can't even tell apart the basic Scriptural difference between hades and the lake of fire.


Its good to see that someone else pays attention lol.

ProDeo
Jul 14th 2008, 09:36 AM
All people are made eternal.

That has to be seen. Please consider the following Scripture:

Jon 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Perish vs everlasting life.

The implication of everlasting life is that not everybody is eternal. And perish puts extra accentuation on that.

Ed

immortality
Jul 14th 2008, 12:24 PM
When a man or woman is thrown into the Lake of Fire after the judgment, does he or she burn in a real literal physical fire for all eternity or is the fire symbolic, or does he or she just get destroyed and cease to exist?

personally i believe it's a good possibility people will have physical bodies in hell. in the book of daniel it says that in the last days, the dead will rise - some to everlasting life and others to everlasting contempt in hell. this would of course be referring to the resurrection of a physical body.

as for the doctrine of eternal punishment, i think scripture is quite clear on this. as some have pointed out, jesus predominantly mentioned the eternity of hell's torments. some would argue that it is not like the character of god to sentence someone to such wrath, but i would say it is indeed like the character of god. if he is an infinitely holy god, he must carry out an infinitely severe punishment. let us not forget that god is not only loving, but just.

also, the people who are going to go to hell for eternity are the ones who will have trampled the son of god under their foot, and called his sacrifice a bad thing. some may argue that humans should never be subject to the same punishment as satan and his angels, which scripture teaches. but what they don't realize is that jesus died not for satan and his fallen angels, but for humanity. therefore, humans are sinning against greater grace, so in reality, you could call unbelieving humans more vile creatures.

Whatistruth
Jul 14th 2008, 12:48 PM
personally i believe it's a good possibility people will have physical bodies in hell. in the book of daniel it says that in the last days, the dead will rise - some to everlasting life and others to everlasting contempt in hell. this would of course be referring to the resurrection of a physical body.

as for the doctrine of eternal punishment, i think scripture is quite clear on this. as some have pointed out, jesus predominantly mentioned the eternity of hell's torments. some would argue that it is not like the character of god to sentence someone to such wrath, but i would say it is indeed like the character of god. if he is an infinitely holy god, he must carry out an infinitely severe punishment. let us not forget that god is not only loving, but just.

also, the people who are going to go to hell for eternity are the ones who will have trampled the son of god under their foot, and called his sacrifice a bad thing. some may argue that humans should never be subject to the same punishment as satan and his angels, which scripture teaches. but what they don't realize is that jesus died not for satan and his fallen angels, but for humanity. therefore, humans are sinning against greater grace, so in reality, you could call unbelieving humans more vile creatures.

Very well put. I like your avatar picture by the way. Makes me think of star trek lol. :blush:

Joey Porter
Jul 14th 2008, 01:30 PM
as some have pointed out, jesus predominantly mentioned the eternity of hell's torments.


Perhaps I have misunderstood what you are saying here, but if you are saying that He "preached more about hell than He did about heaven," as I have seen mentioned previously in this thread, that is simply wrong. Way wrong.

I have heard many well known Christian "leaders" make this statement and I used to believe it, too. Until I started studying it myself. We need to study these things for ourselves, because most of the "shepherds" don't.

The fact is, the word "hell" is only mentioned in the gospels about 12 or 13 times. Beyond that, half of those times, Christ wasn't even referring to a tormenting place beyond the grave, He was talking about Gehenna, a real physical place. It was total mistranslation that many people have bought into.

So in reality, in all the gosples combined, "hell," (hades) is only mentioned less than 10 times! Even if you factor in terms such as "outer darkness" and "fiery furnace," the fact is that Christ did NOT preach more about hell than He did about heaven, at least as it's recorded in the gospels. Not even close!

It's amazing how traditions are just passed down and accepted, even by the so called "leaders" of the church. When in reality, the Truth of this issue is plain to see when studying the gospels.

markedward
Jul 14th 2008, 06:32 PM
Perhaps I have misunderstood what you are saying here, but if you are saying that He "preached more about hell than He did about heaven," as I have seen mentioned previously in this thread, that is simply wrong. Way wrong.I think you did misinterpret him... I don't think he was saying "Jesus taught more about the fire." He was saying that when Jesus taught about the fire he emphasized it's eternality more than any other aspect of it.

keck553
Jul 14th 2008, 07:09 PM
That has to be seen. Please consider the following Scripture:

Jon 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Perish vs everlasting life.

The implication of everlasting life is that not everybody is eternal. And perish puts extra accentuation on that.

Ed

Perish = separation from God. Spiritual death is separation from God, not separation from existance.

Consider the following scripture:

Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

John146
Jul 14th 2008, 07:29 PM
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Death and life are opposites. Death does not mean life at another address.Unbelievers are spiritually dead (dead in their sins), are they not? Yet they are physically alive. So, I don't agree with you here. One can be both dead and alive at the same time. Jesus is speaking in John 5:24-25 about passing from spiritual death to spiritual life, just like Paul speaks about in Ephesians 2:1-6. Unbelievers will be conscious in the lake of fire, but will still be spiritually dead.



Mathew 13:37...He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Ever burnt tares or rubbish in a fire. How long does it survive?

Gehenna was the name of the fire outside Jerusalem at the time of Christ, translated 'hell' in the NT. A place of burning, where all things were destroyed.I see the point you are trying to make, but according to Matthew 25:41,46 the fire is everlasting as is the punishment. Also, the third angel in Revelation 14:9-11 said, "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night.".

Do you accept what this says? Unbelievers will have no rest day nor night. If they merely ceased to exist, they would rest for eternity. But this says they will have no rest.

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 15th 2008, 03:59 AM
http://cf.blb.org/gifs/copyChkboxOff.gifRev 14:11 (http://cf.blb.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=14&v=11&t=KJV#11)And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Here we see the result of taking the mark.. those who take the mark .. in the fire.. and the smoke of their torment is everlasting.. forever and ever..

I would consider wisdom to tell us there that something that is 'smoking' must be 'burning' for the smoke ascends up.. visible..

The Valley outside Jerusalem you talk about is the Valley of Hinnom.. they referred to it as the 'garbage' dump.. where garbage was burned.....

In Hebrews it states that Our God is a consuming fire...
look at the 'burning bush'.. when Moses talked with God and recieved the Commandments... that 'bush' burned with 'fire' yet it did not consume the bush......

Could this be the fate of those who are lost for eternity? burning in a fire that burns them yet does not consume.. a fire that burns and produces smoke yet never consumes them... an 'eternal' place of torment.. a place where the fire is NEVER quenched.. and where the worm dieth not...

brakelite
Jul 17th 2008, 07:33 AM
Can you answer this question please.
The wicked we know end up in the lake of fire. No argumenmt. We are told that they are thrown there after they have been resurrected. So tell me.
How do the wicked suffer what we all know to be called the second death, before they are resurrected?

brakelite
Jul 17th 2008, 07:49 AM
Many of the prophets give vivid descriptions of the destruction of the earth by fire. Peter I think is however the clearest.

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men....
....10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved...

We see here that what is commonly called hell-fire, is actually the earth and everything upon it being burnt up and destroyed before the new creation. Malachi said of the same day:
1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

And Revelation says:
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Question.
If the wicked and the earth are all burnt up at the same time and in the same place, then what and where is this so-called 'hell' where the wicked are supposedly at now?

brakelite
Jul 17th 2008, 07:58 AM
Jude :7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Please explain how and where Sodom and Gomorrah are still burning seeing as how they suffered eternal fire?

losthorizon
Jul 17th 2008, 11:13 AM
Jude :7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Please explain how and where Sodom and Gomorrah are still burning seeing as how they suffered eternal fire?
The former inhabitants of those cities entered into the eternal state and will answer for their sins – fornication, etc. Their fate is the same as “the rich man” – vengeance and eternal fire are self-explanatory…

"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:19-31

losthorizon
Jul 17th 2008, 11:20 AM
Question.
If the wicked and the earth are all burnt up at the same time and in the same place, then what and where is this so-called 'hell' where the wicked are supposedly at now?
The answer is in the *eternal state* – do you not make a distinction between the concepts of “time” and “eternity”? Is God bound by time and place or does He in fact exist outside of time and space? Does the Bible discuss “abodes” that exist outside of time and space?

brakelite
Jul 17th 2008, 11:52 AM
The answer is in the *eternal state* – do you not make a distinction between the concepts of “time” and “eternity”? Is God bound by time and place or does He in fact exist outside of time and space? Does the Bible discuss “abodes” that exist outside of time and space?

Please provide a definitive scriptural teaching describing this 'eternal state'.
(Other than the false teaching of the Jews quoted by Jesus re the rich man and Lazarus.) You see, my Bible teaches me that only God is immortal, and that immortality is a gift for the saved. Any claim to the contrary and you are denying the clear teaching of scripture.


1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Ro 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Perpetua
Jul 17th 2008, 01:20 PM
Originally Posted by Gift of God http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1708292#post1708292)

If I were the Lord and had suffered like that for everyone and some rejected what I did for them even though I died for them too, I would have extreme wrath against those people who rejected my salvation. Since my heart is being sanctified by the Most High I believe that this is in alignment also with God's heart.

Are you sure about that? You may want to read the Genesis story of Joseph and his brothers. Joseph is an OT "type of Christ," and his attitude toward his brothers after they had sold him into slavery is nothing like that which you talk about above.



The OT Joseph story is one aspect of God's redemption for His people, but does not relate to God's coming in judgment against those who rejected Him.

Jesus Himself told several parables, shortly before His crucifixion, about the coming judgment on those who rejected His salvation -- specifically related to the coming judgment against the nation of Israel, and the destruction of Jerusalem. See, for example, Luke 20:1-19, especially the last few verses in this passsage, and Mark 12:1-12. The destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, as prophecied by our Lord in Matthew 24, was at least a partial fulfillment of God's coming in judgment -- both then at that time as well as a reference to the future judgment. Luke 23:28-31 also addresses the coming judgement against Jerusalem. Notice Jesus' words: "For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”

BroRog
Jul 17th 2008, 02:44 PM
http://cf.blb.org/gifs/copyChkboxOff.gifRev 14:11 (http://cf.blb.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=14&v=11&t=KJV#11)And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Here we see the result of taking the mark.. those who take the mark .. in the fire.. and the smoke of their torment is everlasting.. forever and ever..

I would consider wisdom to tell us there that something that is 'smoking' must be 'burning' for the smoke ascends up.. visible..

The Valley outside Jerusalem you talk about is the Valley of Hinnom.. they referred to it as the 'garbage' dump.. where garbage was burned.....

In Hebrews it states that Our God is a consuming fire...
look at the 'burning bush'.. when Moses talked with God and recieved the Commandments... that 'bush' burned with 'fire' yet it did not consume the bush......

Could this be the fate of those who are lost for eternity? burning in a fire that burns them yet does not consume.. a fire that burns and produces smoke yet never consumes them... an 'eternal' place of torment.. a place where the fire is NEVER quenched.. and where the worm dieth not...

I wonder if Revelation 14:11 isn't describing the seven last plagues that God brings to the earth as described in chapter 16, rather than the final judgment?

In prophecy, I have noticed that smoke doesn't necessarily indicate the presence of something being consumed with fire. In many cases, as you point out, the presence of smoke and fire indicates God's presence.

Might the phrase "the smoke of their torment" indicate God himself? Is it possible that they are being tormented, not by the pain of fire, but by the presence of God?

immortality
Jul 17th 2008, 08:52 PM
Can you answer this question please.
The wicked we know end up in the lake of fire. No argumenmt. We are told that they are thrown there after they have been resurrected. So tell me.
How do the wicked suffer what we all know to be called the second death, before they are resurrected?

the "second death" could very well be referring to the soul; that is, spiritual death:

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." [matthew 10:28]

every christian is prone to being physically persecuted or even put to death for their faith, but are never in danger of putting their soul at risk, due to the fact that it's eternally secure with god.

unbelievers however will not only have to face a physical death, but a spiritual one in hell. therefore i think it's debatable that the wicked are already experiencing the second death. they may not be suffering physical persecution, but the wrath of god is most likely taking vengeance on their soul.

i don't know if that answers your question. just thought i'd throw it out there.

losthorizon
Jul 17th 2008, 10:18 PM
Please provide a definitive scriptural teaching describing this 'eternal state'.
(Other than the false teaching of the Jews quoted by Jesus re the rich man and Lazarus.)


Is it your notion that Jesus would endorse and teach a “false doctrine”? I certainly think not - He simply presented the truth - there exists a “great gulf fixed” between the place where the unrighteous abide and the abode where Abraham and the righteous exist. I see nothing too difficult with this biblical concept – of all men who have ever lived upon this earth Jesus would be the most authoritative on this subject – having come from the eternal thrown of God where He existed eternally and returned to that same throne after He finished His redeeming work on the Cross. If the choice is between the “soul-sleeping” error and the truth presented by the Christ, I will have to go with what He taught – sorry – He is without error. :)

The truth will forever remain - there most certainly exists two places of abode for those who “have gone on before us” and while the body returns to the dust from whence it came the soul of man goes to one of two places and our destination depends entirely on our relationship with Jesus Christ.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luke 16:25-26 (KJV)

threebigrocks
Jul 18th 2008, 02:17 AM
I wonder if Revelation 14:11 isn't describing the seven last plagues that God brings to the earth as described in chapter 16, rather than the final judgment?

In prophecy, I have noticed that smoke doesn't necessarily indicate the presence of something being consumed with fire. In many cases, as you point out, the presence of smoke and fire indicates God's presence.

Might the phrase "the smoke of their torment" indicate God himself? Is it possible that they are being tormented, not by the pain of fire, but by the presence of God?

God is not present in the lake of fire. It's the absence of His presence once they are judged and realize they screwed up that causes them torment.

BroRog
Jul 18th 2008, 03:49 AM
God is not present in the lake of fire. It's the absence of His presence once they are judged and realize they screwed up that causes them torment.

That's just it. I don't think Revelation 14 is talking about the lake of fire. And doesn't it say that they will be tortured in the presence of the Lamb? I think it does.

brakelite
Jul 19th 2008, 10:32 AM
You didn't answer the question. The Bible, which you claim to believe, says that only
God is immortal. Immortality, eternal life, is a gift to the saved. So, what is this 'eternal state' you speak of for the wicked, and when did they receive it? Bible evidence please.

Just a couple of further questions on your literal interpretation of the rich man and Lazarus parable.
If everybody who has died is now in Abraham's bosom, whose bosom is Abraham in?

And is it likely that those in your hell can converse with the residents of heaven, and receive a reply?

If , when we die, our bodies remain behind and our souls go to heaven or hell, then please explain how a soul can thirst? Also, how a soul can have a finger?

Jesus was not explaining the physical realities of the afterlife. He was using an ancient Jewish fable to explain spiritual truth.
Who was the symbolic rich man The Jews had been blessed above measure by a knowledge of God and his plan of salvation for all mankind. They had received “the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises.” Romans 9:4. Only a Jew would pray to “Father Abraham,” as we find the rich man doing later in the story. The Jewish nation was clearly represented by this character.
By contrast, Lazarus symbolized all those people in spiritual poverty—the Gentiles—with whom the Israelites were to share their heritage. The words of Isaiah were well known to the Jews. “I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.” Isaiah 49:6.
Unfortunately, the Jews had not shared their spiritual wealth with the Gentiles at all. Instead, they considered them as “dogs” that would have to be satisfied with the spiritual crumbs falling from their masters’ tables. The metaphor was known. Jesus had used it before in testing the faith of the Canaanite woman. “It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.” She responded accordingly: “Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ tables.” Matthew 15:26, 27.
The rich Jews had hoarded the truth, and in so doing, they had corrupted themselves. Only moments before relating this parable, Jesus had rebuked the Pharisees for their spiritual conceit. “Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.” Luke 16:15. What was to be the result of this terrible conceit
“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.” Luke 16:22-26.
The Jews had enjoyed “the good life” while on earth but had done nothing to bless or enrich their neighbors. No further reward was due. “Woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger.” Luke 6:24, 25.
Conversely, the poor in spirit, symbolized by Lazarus, would inherit the kingdom of heaven. The Gentiles who hungered and thirsted after righteousness would be filled. The “dogs” and sinners, so despised by the self-righteous Pharisees, would enter heaven before they would. “Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.” Matthew 21:31.
The parable concludes with the rich man begging for his brethren to be warned against sharing his fate. Asking Abraham to send Lazarus on this mission, he alleges “if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.” Luke 16:30. Abraham replies, “If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.” Verse 31.
Jesus thus rebuked the Pharisees for their disregard of the Scriptures, foreseeing that even a supernatural event would not change the hearts of those who persistently rejected the teachings of “Moses and the prophets.” The miracle of raising the real-life Lazarus from the dead soon afterward confirmed the accuracy of Jesus’ conclusion. One did rise from the dead, yet the brothers of the “rich man” did not repent. In fact, the Pharisees even plotted to kill Lazarus after his resurrection. His very life was a reminder to them of their own hypocrisy.

losthorizon
Jul 19th 2008, 01:13 PM
You didn't answer the question. The Bible, which you claim to believe, says that only
God is immortal. Immortality, eternal life, is a gift to the saved. So, what is this 'eternal state' you speak of for the wicked, and when did they receive it? Bible evidence please.


But I did give evidence but you wish to “spiritualize” it under the carpet instead of dealing with the reality it teaches – at death the souls of men and women go to one of two places – deal with it. The notion of “soul-sleeping” is just that a notion taught by men but not substantiated in the Book. The narrative of Revelation 6:9-11 completely destroys your error of soul-sleep. Please pay close attention and note (1) the Revelator sees the “souls” of those martyred for their faith in Christ “underneath the altar” of God. (2) A martyr implies that one’s body is dead and buried, burned or in the belly of the beasts of the Coliseum and remains on the earth. (3) Even though these martyr’s were separated from their earthly bodies their souls existed in a conscious state (eternal state) – therefore they were able to cry out to God for justice… “How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” These are facts that are hard to misunderstand unless one chooses to believe that which is not taught in Holy Writ.
“And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.” (Revelation 6:9-11)

brakelite
Jul 19th 2008, 11:40 PM
But I did give evidence but you wish to “spiritualize” it under the carpet instead of dealing with the reality it teaches – at death the souls of men and women go to one of two places – deal with it. The notion of “soul-sleeping” is just that a notion taught by men but not substantiated in the Book. The narrative of Revelation 6:9-11 completely destroys your error of soul-sleep. Please pay close attention and note (1) the Revelator sees the “souls” of those martyred for their faith in Christ “underneath the altar” of God. (2) A martyr implies that one’s body is dead and buried, burned or in the belly of the beasts of the Coliseum and remains on the earth. (3) Even though these martyr’s were separated from their earthly bodies their souls existed in a conscious state (eternal state) – therefore they were able to cry out to God for justice… “How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” These are facts that are hard to misunderstand unless one chooses to believe that which is not taught in Holy Writ.
“And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.” (Revelation 6:9-11)
So your 'evidence' proves that Paul is a liar? That God is not the only being who has immortality?


I will go again to the simple words of the Saviour, Whom you claim taught that men and women went straight to heaven or hell.

Apart from the parables,if Jesus was anything in the things He taught, He was concise and accurate.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Where are the dead when Jesus calls them? In their graves. Still.

What was the Christian hope, if not the resurrection? And it was Jesus that engendered that hope. Again to the gospel of John.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


Oh, and by the way. I am not an advocate for what you call 'soul sleep'. The scriptures don't teach that either. What the scriptures do teach is that the spirit returns to God who gave it. This applies to everyone, both good and bad. And if you want to know what the spirit is, then I suggest you do the study.
Suffice to say that Jesus taught that death was a type of sleep, again for everyone, because the time will come when the dead are called from their sleep at the time of the resurrection, and not a moment before.
According to the creation story, we do not have a soul. We are souls. And according to Ezekiel, souls die.

losthorizon
Jul 20th 2008, 12:56 AM
So your 'evidence' proves that Paul is a liar? That God is not the only being who has immortality?



Of course Paul was not a liar and neither was John the Revelator. But you haven’t addressed the souls of the martyrs “under the throne” who called out to the Lord – were they merely figments of the Revelator’s imagination or is the reality exactly what is recorded in the Book – the souls of those martyred for the cause of Christ exist with Him in an eternal state? And you have never addressed the reality that Lazarus existed in a conscious state after his soul departed his body in death. Can you not explain these biblical realities? Remember, I don't care what your Mrs. White taught you - soul-sleep was just one of many of her errors.


Oh, and by the way. I am not an advocate for what you call 'soul sleep'.
Yes my friend you are such an advocate of that non-biblical dogma – I realize your do not like the label “soul-sleep” because it is not biblical but it is what you teach - “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet” – ie - "what matters is what something is, not what it is called."

brakelite
Jul 20th 2008, 01:37 AM
And you are still refusing to face the issue of the very words of Jesus Himself who said that He would call the dead from their graves.
And you are also still refusing to face the issue of Pauls statement that only God is immortal. Your take on the souls under the altar and the story of the rich man and Lazarus contradict Pauls statement on the immortality issue. It is your ubderstanding that is at odds with the revealed word of God reagarding immortality, not John's vision or Jesus own parable. The Bible does not contradict itself. Either God only is immortal as per the scripture, or He isn't, as per your belief. Which is the truth?
I will go with the scripture.

threebigrocks
Jul 20th 2008, 01:44 AM
Enough personal exchanges, lay out the doctrine and discuss, but the jabs need to stop.

threebigrocks
Jul 20th 2008, 01:46 AM
If we all have a spirit, which is eternal, why can't someone's soul live eternally in hell without life, or death? Those who believe gain eternal life.

1of7000
Jul 20th 2008, 02:41 AM
will condos be available? nothing like coming home after a great day of worship, sitting on the lanai and listening to the screams of those that didn't. makes one very thankful.

losthorizon
Jul 20th 2008, 03:18 AM
And you are still refusing to face the issue of the very words of Jesus Himself who said that He would call the dead from their graves.
And you are also still refusing to face the issue of Pauls statement that only God is immortal. Your take on the souls under the altar and the story of the rich man and Lazarus contradict Pauls statement on the immortality issue.

Paul is explaining a simple truth – it is God alone who “hath immortality” in respect to His eternal essence – ie – He is *The Eternal* and has never been dependant on another for His attribute of immortality. Man on the other hand as a *created being* does not have this eternal attribute but is dependant on God’s grace for eternal life which is only found “in Christ Jesus"…
And the witness is this, that God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son (1 John 5:11). This does not negate the fact that the soul and body of man are separated at the point of physical death – the body returns to the earth and the soul (still conscious) goes to one of two abodes – one prepared for the righteous and the other prepared for the unrighteous…
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments…What about those souls under the altar of God - the one who spoke to Him? Did the angels of God carry the beggar into Abraham's bosom or was Jesus wrong?

brakelite
Jul 20th 2008, 09:41 AM
So what you are saying is that man's soul is immortal. (At least the one that goes to heaven.) So what of the soul of the wicked? Are they immortal 'in Christ' also? If so, then Christ is deliberately keeping the wicked alive throughout eternity just so they can burn without dying.Interesting take on the nature and character of One we call Love.

losthorizon
Jul 20th 2008, 12:29 PM
So what you are saying is that man's soul is immortal. (At least the one that goes to heaven.) So what of the soul of the wicked? Are they immortal 'in Christ' also? If so, then Christ is deliberately keeping the wicked alive throughout eternity just so they can burn without dying.Interesting take on the nature and character of One we call Love.
The same God who is Love is also the Righteous Judge and judge He will according to no less an authority than Jesus Christ.
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Matt 5:22 (KJV)Your problem is you are stumbling all over a non-biblical concept of *religious materialism* - an idea that erroneously teaches that man is only a *mortal being* but this is not what the Bible teaches and God's word always trumps the doctrine of man – the Bible clearly teaches that the soul of man lives on after death and is subject to eternal punishment or eternal reward depending on one's relationship with God. Remember this biblical truism taught by Jesus and take it to heart…it applies to you and me...
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28 (KJV) Btw – when you are through scratching your hear over the souls under God’s altar who consciously talk with Him and have your answer let me know – you know where to find me. Again, the biblical fact that souls exist under His altar renders your dogma of *soul-sleep* dead on arrival...sorry. ;)
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Rev 6)

brakelite
Jul 20th 2008, 10:28 PM
Your problem is you are stumbling all over a non-biblical concept of *religious materialism* - an idea that erroneously teaches that man is only a *mortal being* but this is not what the Bible teaches and God's word always trumps the doctrine of man –

Religious materialism??? Wow. You learn something everyday. So if what I believe comes under the heading of 'religious materialism, does that mean that what you believe is religiously immaterial?

I notice a lack of Biblical references to your contention that man is created an eternal being. That he has the potential for living eternally, that is of course without doubt, but you are saying, in direct opposition to the 1 Tim 6:16....
(Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen)....

that man also is naturally immortal. Now of course you will deny this, but nevertheless it is what you are saying, in reference to the wicked anyway. Because in order for the wicked to live forever suffering the torments and tortures of an eternally burning hell, they must have natural immortality, because only to the righteous is it given as a gift.
Rom 2:55 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

The wicked are not given eternal life and immortality as a gift and/or reward , therefore , in order for them to live forever, they must have it naturally. Of course, God forbid that you would actually believe the scripture that says in Ezekiel that the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Nor, I suppose, would you believe the following...

Psalm 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

Malachi 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Mathew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:


Do the wicked have eternal life? Do they live forever? Are they also immortal as are the righteous? Not according to the word of God.


As to the souls under the altar. I am confused. Are the people in heaven under an altar, or in Abraham's bosom? Or is Abraham's bosom under the altar? Either way, heaven doesn't sound much like the grand place it's meant to be if that is true. I don't find an altar or a bosom particularly attractive. Oh, unless of course you are not meant to take either example literally. That maybe they are figurative perhaps?
Like the blood of Abel crying out to God out of the earth?

losthorizon
Jul 21st 2008, 02:49 AM
As to the souls under the altar. I am confused.

Yes, you are confused because you choose to be confused. John saw the souls of those killed for the cause of Christ – they are conscious and they speak to the Lord and he speaks them. There bodies are in a state of decomposition yet their souls live on in an eternal state. You cannot deny this truth no matter which way you choose to spin it – sorry but your materialistic soul-sleeping dogma goes against the clear teaching of the Book and it should be rejected and it is in fact rejected by those who understand God’s word...fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The souls of them that were slain - That had been put to death by persecution. This is one of the incidental proofs in the Bible that the soul does not cease to exist at death, and also that it does not cease to be conscious, or does not sleep until the resurrection. These souls of the martyrs are represented as still in existence; as remembering what had occurred on the earth; as interested in what was now taking place; as engaged in prayer; and as manifesting earnest desires for the divine interposition to avenge the wrongs which they had suffered. ~ Albert Barnes on Revelation 6

I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain; these include not only all the martyrs that were put to death in the persecution of Dioclesian, but all those that suffered in all the persecutions preceding; for this, being the last, involves them all. "Souls", being immaterial and incorporeal,...these were the souls of such as "were slain"; their bodies were dead, but their souls were alive; which shows the immortality of souls, and that they die not with their bodies, and that they live after them in a separate state. John Gill, Book of Revelation

brakelite
Jul 22nd 2008, 01:00 AM
,...these were the souls of such as "were slain"; their bodies were dead, but their souls were alive; which shows the immortality of souls, and that they die not with their bodies, and that they live after them in a separate state. John Gill, Book of Revelation[/INDENT]

Wel, I don't know who John Gill is, but he's wrong. Dead wrong. In fact, he makes a very grave error. He, as well as the majority of the Christian church, contradicts the written word of God, And all your blustering and false affirmations to the contrary will not change that.

1Ti 6:16 Who only!!!!! hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

God is Spirit. This scripture is not talking about the physical body. God is the only immortal spirit.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Your constant harping back to the souls under the altar does not answer the question ..."How and when and where do the wicked get their immortality from?????????"
Which is more in line with the OP anyway.

losthorizon
Jul 22nd 2008, 01:38 AM
Wel, I don't know who John Gill is, but he's wrong. Dead wrong. In fact, he makes a very grave error. He, as well as the majority of the Christian church, contradicts the written word of God, And all your blustering and false affirmations to the contrary will not change that.


I am not blustering, friend I am simply telling you the truth. John Gill was a well-respected biblical scholar from the past who correctly understandood the truth presented in Holy Writ – the soul lives on in an eternal state after it is separated from the body at the point of physical death. Do you also claim to not know who Albert Barnes was? He concurs with Gill – the souls under the altar is just “one of the incidental proofs in the Bible that the soul does not cease to exist at death, and also that it does not cease to be conscious, or does not sleep until the resurrection.” Again, those souls under the altar blows your dogma of soul-sleep completely out of the water.


Your constant harping back to the souls under the altar does not answer the question ..."How and when and where do the wicked get their immortality?????????"
Which is more in line with the OP anyway.
Interpretation: you cannot reconcile the souls under the altar with your notion of souls sleeping because the soul-sleep doctrine is not in the Bible. Sorry.

brakelite
Jul 22nd 2008, 07:21 AM
You still haven't answered the question: when are the wicked given eternal life? When do they receive their immortality?

losthorizon
Jul 22nd 2008, 12:51 PM
You still haven't answered the question: when are the wicked given eternal life? When do they receive their immortality?
I think I have already answered – at the point of physical death man goes to one of two states of existence – eternal life with God or eternal separation from God (as in forever). And now – what about those conscious souls under the altar who talk with God separate and apart from their dead bodies left on earth?

brakelite
Jul 23rd 2008, 08:25 AM
I think I have already answered – at the point of physical death man goes to one of two states of existence – eternal life with God or eternal separation from God (as in forever).
So the righteous receive eternal life at death huh? Not according to Paul.
1 Cor 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


Now forgive me if I am treating this passage as it reads, for I am not into 'interpreting' passages to mean something other than what it clearly says. And what it clearly says is that we receive our immortality at the last trumpet, the day Jesus returns to take us home. Jesus actually agrees with this (surprise ,surprise) when He reassured His followers of the truth of life after death when He said:

John 14:1 ¶ Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Now it seems to me that if a major plank of current Christian doctrine such as immediate entry to heaven upon death was being taught in the Bible at all, either Paul or Jesus would have been the ones to teach it. But alas, no, it appears they were actually teaching that the Christian hope of eternal life was all bound up in the resurrection at the second coming. Perhaps that is why the Lord's resurrection is so important to us. And also why it has remained the hope of Christians throughout all ages. And maybe, just maybe, why the focus of so much of the apostolic writings is set squarely and pointedly upon the resurrection of the Lord as being the type of our own, giving us our sole and only reason to hope for our own immortality. For it is through the resurrection that death was conquered by Christ, it is through our resurrection that death will be conquered through Christ on our behalf. Death remains death until the resurrection.

As to the eternal separation from God part. That, in a sense, I can agree with. For that is what death accomplishes. Separation. And indeed the wicked are resurrected, but as Jesus so succinctly put it, not to a resurrection of life, but a resurrection of damnation. As you quoted earlier, fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hellfire. 'Destroy' it seems to me is fairly easy to understand. Especially when coupled with words like 'perish' . I know what it does not mean. It does not mean eternal life. It does not mean immortality. It does not mean living forever being punished by a God who gifted the wicked eternal life just so He can immortalise sin, sinners, pain, suffering, and agony.


And now – what about those conscious souls under the altar who talk with God separate and apart from their dead bodies left on earth?

As I said previously, just as the blood of Abel cried out to God from the earth, which is a figurative call for justice, so are also these 'souls' under the altar. (If literally accepted, what are they doing under the altar? Why there? What pleasures of heaven can be experienced under an altar?
I find the following verse significant. In answer to their cry, they are told to rest just a little bit longer. Egad! Could this mean that justice is delayed until all finish their 'rest', and are resurrected? That then, on the last day, rewards are given to all? Life to the righteous, and death to the wicked?

NightWatchman
Jul 23rd 2008, 10:54 AM
Brakelite:

All you are doing is quarreling and trying to prove how "smart" you are.
Read 1 Timothy and you'll see what I mean.

Your posts here don't encourage anyone.

losthorizon
Jul 23rd 2008, 12:52 PM
So the righteous receive eternal life at death huh? Not according to Paul.

Your confusion continues because your materialistic view does not allow you to make the distinction between the corruptible body that returns to the dust from whence it came and the soul of man that departs the body at physical death and goes to one of two place – (1) the presence of God or (2) separation from God. The soul of Lazarus went to a place of comfort in God’s presence and the rich man’s soul went to a place of torment outside of God’s presence. At the “general resurrection” the ever conscious soul of man is reunited with the corruptible body that is changed “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” from corruptible to incorruptible.

Paul sums it up for us and drive’s one last nail into the coffin of the *soul-sleep error* – for Paul it is better by far to “depart the body” in death and for his soul (that lives on) to be with Christ. Please note he does not say that when his soul departs the body at death he will go immediately to the grave and sleep for 20 centuries and then be with the Lord – no he says when his body and soul are separated at death his soul still conscious immediately “goes to be with the Lord”. This is hard to misunderstand unless one has a dogma to protect – a dogma promoted by man. And what about those conscious souls under the altar that cry out to the Lord for justice – they are the souls of the martyrs who were separated at death from the body when they died for the cause of Christ - they too went immediately to be with the Lord…
"I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, so that through my being with you again your joy in Christ Jesus will overflow on account of me." (Phil. 1:20-26)"This is one of the incidental proofs in the Bible that the soul does not cease to exist at death, and also that it does not cease to be conscious, or does not sleep until the resurrection." ~ Albert Barnes

brakelite
Jul 24th 2008, 12:38 AM
Brakelite:

All you are doing is quarreling and trying to prove how "smart" you are.
Read 1 Timothy and you'll see what I mean.

Your posts here don't encourage anyone.

You are absolutely right. I have been trying to be 'clever' in my arguments rather than just presenting my particular view of scripture, and trusting in them to convince.
Whether right or wrong, 'smart-alecs' are always a pain.
Lost Horizon, my apologies. I think this might be an appropriate time to relinquish this particular debate, gather my thoughts and get my head together and no doubt meet with you again sometime. God Bless.

losthorizon
Jul 24th 2008, 01:08 AM
Lost Horizon, my apologies. I think this might be an appropriate time to relinquish this particular debate, gather my thoughts and get my head together and no doubt meet with you again sometime. God Bless.
No apology needed from my viewpoint - you are defending a position you obviously hold dear. It has been a pleasure and we can discuss it in more detail at your convenience. Peace.

RevLogos
Jul 24th 2008, 02:21 AM
I have not made up my mind. I have always been taught the eternal damnation doctrine. But to be honest, I don’t see it in scripture. Most frequently scripture distinguishes death from eternal life.

God tells Adam that because of their transgression, they shall die.
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat food
until you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust, and to dust you will return.
This is reiterated by God in Ezekiel:
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
And by Isiah:
Isa 26:14 The dead do not come back to life,
the spirits of the dead do not rise.
That is because you came in judgment and destroyed them,
you wiped out all memory of them.
It seems clear to me that the OT Bible does not teach that the soul is necessarily immortal.

The view that the sinning soul dies is repeated in the NT, in a very well known verse:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
And this most famous verse:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And this one:
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
This verse appears to show that God can, and does, destroy the soul. The destruction of the soul occurs in hell:
Mat 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

RevLogos
Jul 24th 2008, 02:26 AM
NT scripture refers to death as “the last enemy” to be conquered:
1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be eliminated is death.
Paul speaks at length of the victory over death. The mortal shall put on immortality. The sting of sin is death, but Jesus gives us victory over death.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
All of this is consistent with the idea of victory over death, and none of it talks about any eternal torment in Hell. The Lake of Fire it seems, consumes and destroys all that ends up there.

RogerW
Jul 24th 2008, 02:30 AM
Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Re 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Re 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Have you ever compared the above passage with the passage in Rev 20?

In Rev 6 we find those souls slain for the Word of God and the testimony they held, but no mention of being the witness of Jesus. I believe this is because Jesus had not yet been born a man. They could only speak of the coming of Messiah. Therefore John is speaking of seeing OT saints who died before Christ came. These would include the righteous from Abel to Zacharias (Mt. 23:35; Lu 11:51), as well as John the Baptist. All the faithful saints martyred for the Word of God they professed.

John hears them crying out for vengence, but they are given white robes and told they must wait until all who will be killed as they were are also martyred for their faithfulness.

I believe Rev 6 is speaking of the place where every OT saint went prior to Christ and the cross. This place, called Abraham's bosom, is the grave, but separate from the lowest part of the grave (tartaroo; the deepest abyss of Hades/grave 2Pe 2:4) where all who die in unbelief go; i.e. the rich man. To be under the alter is to be under the blood of Christ (benefactor of His sacrifice) after physical death, while still in that part of the grave, or Abraham's bosom. These OT saints could not go immediately to heaven after physical death until after Christ came to set them free (Eph 4:8-10), and to prepare a place in heaven for them (Jo 14:2).

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The souls are beheaded in Rev 20 not only for the Word of God, but also for the witness of Jesus, and they do not worship the beast, his image, or receive his mark. These also live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. While the OT saints proclaimed the coming of Messiah, the NT saints are witnesses of His coming and His victory over death. They have part in the first resurrection that is spiritual life from spiritual death. The moment one is given spiritual life their reign with Christ begins. A thousand years symbolizes the fullness of time, not literal time. That is why it can be said that all who are given spiritual life reign with Christ a thousand years, or until the fullness of time. Once time has ended and Christians are given resurrected bodies, then our immortal life with Christ begins.

NT saints did not spiritually go to Abraham's bosom, because Christ defeated death and hell (the grave). Those who die in Christ go spiritually to reign with Christ in heaven. Abraham's bosom was emptied by Christ, so all the OT saints too spiritually reign in heaven with Christ for a thousand years or until the fullness of time after the cross. This is why in Rev 20 those martyred for Christ are no longer under the altar, but are now (spiritually) in heaven.

Lazarus and the rich man depict the different parts of the grave where believers and unbelivers went upon physical death prior to Christ incarnate, and victory at the cross and death. That part of the grave; Tartaroo, or the deepest abyss of Hades (grave), still exists for all who die in unbelief. Unbelievers simply go to the grave and wait in silence until the fullness of time, when they will be resurrected for Judgment.

Ps 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Before Christ believers went spiritually into Abraham's bosom to await the promise of His coming to deliver them from the grave. Now all who die in Christ spiritually go immediately to dwell with the Lord, and in the fullness of time believers will dwell with the Lord in both body and spirit in eternity. At the end of time, on Judgment Day unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire where they will eternally suffer the eternal flames.

Blessings,
RW

losthorizon
Jul 24th 2008, 02:40 AM
Before Christ believers went spiritually into Abraham's bosom to await the promise of His coming to deliver them from the grave. Now all who die in Christ spiritually go immediately to dwell with the Lord, and in the fullness of time believers will dwell with the Lord in both body and spirit in eternity. At the end of time, on Judgment Day unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire where they will eternally suffer the eternal flames.

Blessings,
RW
Excellent summary, Roger.

Mike CP King
Jul 31st 2008, 10:58 PM
Hi Guys,
I am new to this forum and have a great interest in discussions where people believe in 'soul' meaning something like a disembodied spirit after death or ' the immortal part of man' and such.

The biblical view of soul means in essence 'life', breathing creature' 'person' (the whole physical being!), 'animal'. It is sometimes translated as 'soul' from the Hebrew word 'Nephesh' or Greek 'Psuche', but one should not read into the bible the Greek view of 'soul' into it.

There is no such thing as an immortal soul anywhere in the bible and nor is it implied.

Numbers 23:10 ..Let my nephesh die the death of the righteous
Judges 16:30 Let my 'nephesh' die with the philistines

What is a 'Nephesh'?

Nephesh - Psyche - Soul
The important passage in Genesis 2:7 sets the scene for this 'window - word' into the nature of personhood. An individual becomes a 'nephesh' from the infusion of divine breath into moulded dust. In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and came to mean 'life', that 'vital motion' which distinguishes a living being from a corpse.

'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.
This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death. It is, as we shall see a highly complex image very easy to misinterpret.

*From Workshop.

mikebr
Jul 31st 2008, 11:53 PM
Good and interesting post. Way to jump in and welcome to the boards.

I tried to give you some good reps but mistakenly hit a button so I think the reps just say G.

Buck shot
Aug 1st 2008, 01:16 AM
There is no such thing as an immortal soul anywhere in the bible and nor is it implied.
.


John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

I have read thru your post a couple of times and can't tell if you believe in the false doctrine of soul sleep or not but scripture does say those who believe Jesus is their Lord will never die.

calidog
Aug 1st 2008, 01:25 AM
Hi Guys,

There is no such thing as an immortal soul anywhere in the bible and nor is it implied.



Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

Mar 12:27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Mike CP King
Aug 1st 2008, 07:45 AM
John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

I have read thru your post a couple of times and can't tell if you believe in the false doctrine of soul sleep or not but scripture does say those who believe Jesus is their Lord will never die.

Hi,
That is absolutely right. Unfortunately, 'soul sleep' is a contradiction in terms and a biblical absurdity as 'nephesh' does not exist outside the body nor is 'nephesh' alive after physical death, because nephesh means life in most cases.
My main gripe is that 'soul' is a poor choice of word in biblical translations when most people understand the word soul to mean something completely different to what 'nephesh' or 'psuche' means.

Our promise is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord as a gift (Romans 6:23) Death is not extinction. The 'soul'(Nephesh) is not the essence of a person. See how Leviticus 17:11 states ..the nephesh is in the blood..

Our promise from Jesus is he will will raise us up on the last day:

John 6:40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=6&verse=40&version=31&context=verse)
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Also in 1 Corinthians 15, we will will be raised up or caught up in the air if we are still alive when Jesus comes back.

Mike CP King
Aug 1st 2008, 07:50 AM
Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

Mar 12:27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Hi Calidog,
Gen 35:18 as 'soul' here is translated from the Hebrew word 'nephesh' would be understood better as her LIFE was departing. She died!

The 2nd verse (I am not sure which book you quoted) means that to God, people who are promised eternal life are alive to god, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE NOT BEEN RESURRECTED YET .

Compare that with Act 2:34 abnd 1 corinthians 15

calidog
Aug 1st 2008, 02:41 PM
There is no such thing as an immortal soul anywhere in the bible and nor is it implied.

Hi Mike, here's another one for you :)

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Buck shot
Aug 1st 2008, 03:33 PM
2 Corinthians 5:8



8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

To be absent from this body IS to be present with the Lord. We will not have to wait but will instantly be in the presance of the Lord when we draw our last breath. :)

Mike CP King
Aug 1st 2008, 03:40 PM
2 Corinthians 5:8



8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

To be absent from this body IS to be present with the Lord. We will not have to wait but will instantly be in the presance of the Lord when we draw our last breath. :)

To Paul, it would be his next waking moment, but to us he is in the grave. Compare that text with what he writes in 1 Corinthians 15 and then you do not get a contradiction.

Mike CP King
Aug 1st 2008, 03:50 PM
Hi Mike, here's another one for you :)

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Hi Calidog,
Thanks for the post of Rev 6:9.

This one is easily explained when we have already seen that 'Nephesh' in the bible means 'life', whole person (personal pronoun), and even corpse. Compare this passage with Genesis 4;10, 11

10 The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand.

To the Hebrew, the 'Nephesh' was in the blood (Lev17:11 and DT 12:23). If you notice in Gen 4 :10 and 11, the blood (vehicle of nephesh) was crying to God to avenge Abel's death in the same way. If you replace 'soul of those' with the word 'people', then it does not contradict the rest of the bible in its uses of the words 'nephesh' and 'psuche'.

'Psuche' does not mean a disembodied being and it cannot be understood in that way.

Here is a good (but very long, but well worth reading end to end) on the use of the word 'nephesh and 'psuche' in the OT and NT

http://www.drhoff.com/Writings/writings.htm

JesusMySavior
Aug 2nd 2008, 04:08 AM
I would be really cautious with that book....I saved man going to hell? Then experiancing some physical pain there.....By spirtual law it cannot happen. Impossible.

In the book he was not saved at the time. His experience woke him up to a relationship with Jesus Christ ;)

It's an interesting book, you should read it sometime :D

Mograce2U
Aug 2nd 2008, 05:00 PM
Mike CP King, #85 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1732553&postcount=85)
Thanks for the link to that article. The first 11 pages are a bit hard to get thru but needed to arrive at 12-16 and get past the dual nature of Greek thinking that we have adopted. I would sure like to ask him a few questions though... Dr. Hoff never mentions the story Jesus told of the rich man and Lazarus in sheol.

Mike CP King
Aug 2nd 2008, 09:43 PM
Mike CP King, #85 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1732553&postcount=85)
Thanks for the link to that article. The first 11 pages are a bit hard to get thru but needed to arrive at 12-16 and get past the dual nature of Greek thinking that we have adopted. I would sure like to ask him a few questions though... Dr. Hoff never mentions the story Jesus told of the rich man and Lazarus in sheol.

Hi,
Thanks for the post. I think that is it not mentioned at all in the writings of Dr Tory Hoff is that 'psuche' does not appear in the text of Luke 16.

Just curious, what questions would you ask?

Mograce2U
Aug 2nd 2008, 11:17 PM
Hi,
Thanks for the post. I think that is it not mentioned at all in the writings of Dr Tory Hoff is that 'psuche' does not appear in the text of Luke 16.

Just curious, what questions would you ask?Well the first one is why does He think that Jesus told that story which gives us the idea that souls (pre-cross) are alive in sheol though their bodies lay dead in the grave. If this is not to give us the idea that the soul is separate from its dead flesh, ie. I don't know that I would have thought of it that way at all if not for that passage. It would seem to be in line with the Hebrew understanding of sheol somehow.

Bick
Aug 2nd 2008, 11:22 PM
It is a literal fire and brimstone, like sulfur, that burns the flesh without killing the person, for all eternity.

How can a literal persone thrown into a lake of fire and brimstone without being burned up and die-----thus, the second death for them? for they had been resurrected after dying once, to appear before the Great White Throne for judging.

Mike CP King
Aug 3rd 2008, 07:30 AM
Well the first one is why does He think that Jesus told that story which gives us the idea that souls (pre-cross) are alive in sheol though their bodies lay dead in the grave. If this is not to give us the idea that the soul is separate from its dead flesh, ie. I don't know that I would have thought of it that way at all if not for that passage. It would seem to be in line with the Hebrew understanding of sheol somehow.

Hi,
If you mean the parable of the rich man and lazarus about souls 'being alive in Sheol', Jesus was using the Pharisaical teaching of the day to bring a point, but it is not a teaching of the afterlife. There are a number of good links which explains Luke 16 so there will be no contradictions to the reast of the word.

Its hard to read, because of the background so you may want to copy it onto note pad.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm

losthorizon
Aug 3rd 2008, 02:23 PM
If you mean the parable of the rich man and lazarus about souls 'being alive in Sheol', Jesus was using the Pharisaical teaching of the day to bring a point, but it is not a teaching of the afterlife. There are a number of good links which explains Luke 16 so there will be no contradictions to the reast of the word.


Isn’t the site you reference just a propaganda site sponsored by Gary Amirault, a Universalist who teaches the error of “Universal Salvation”- the error that ultimately all mankind will be saved? Of course such error cannot deal with the biblical truth that those who reject God will receive eternal and cognitive separation from God. Do you subscribe to the notion of “Universal Salvation"?

Btw – the record of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable it is a biblical reality and it teaches the truth that at death the soul and body are separated and the conscious soul goes to a place prepared by God where the righteous and unrighteous are separated.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28 (KJV)

Mograce2U
Aug 3rd 2008, 04:54 PM
Isn’t the site you reference just a propaganda site sponsored by Gary Amirault, a Universalist who teaches the error of “Universal Salvation”- the error that ultimately all mankind will be saved? Of course such error cannot deal with the biblical truth that those who reject God will receive eternal and cognitive separation from God. Do you subscribe to the notion of “Universal Salvation"?

Btw – the record of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable it is a biblical reality and it teaches the truth that at death the soul and body are separated and the conscious soul goes to a place prepared by God where the righteous and unrighteous are separated.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28 (KJV)
Hi LH,
The earlier article by Dr. Hof does bring up the point that a living soul is formed when the body is animated by the breath of God; and that death occurs when that breath/life is departed from the body. What I see here is that while a living soul is one living unit, it is together body and soul; yet both before life and after death, he is "separate" (and not living). I think that picture also exists in conception whereby until an egg and sperm are united, no living soul exists, but once they are the result is one living being.

Also in Ezek 37, we see God speaking metaphorically of bringing Israel back into the land by regenerating their dry bones. The picture is one of death and resurrection when God again breathes life into them by His Spirit sent from the 4 winds. In Rev 7 the 4 winds are held back from sending destruction and also elsewhere in scripture the 4 winds scatter or bring death. So it seems these special angels (the 4 cherubim who accompany God?) have the ministry of giving life or death to men.

Since we are not Hindus, we need to resist the idea that when our breath/life departs that we are somehow rejoined to the "Divine Consciousness" and assimilated into his being. And that we probably ought not to look upon the separated soul life as an entity unto itself as the Greeks did either. But it does seem as though the scripture is wanting to give us an understanding that a life once given - to His people - is somehow held in God's care (OT Sheol), while the body was sleeping in death, until the time of resurrection. This was why the Jews buried their dead bones...

But what I see in the NT is that with the giving of the Holy Spirit, came the hope that the living soul would be kept thru death and brought into a new body immediately, though the separated body corrupted in the grave and sin with it. Therefore the OT hope was to be raised back to life and the NT hope is that we will not even taste nor see death (nor Sheol) because the Spirit has been given to us. The "rapture" is thus our hope at death as we are transformed.

One other thing about Israel's hope was that they were promised that they would stand again in the judgment. And since some died in their sins (not yet justified), it makes sense that their resurrection is more like that of Lazarus or like those who came up out of their graves at Jesus' resurrection. The judgment of Mat 25:31 seems to have these in view since it is obvious those who already have eternal life will not face that judgment. It is the judgment of their works which they did know whether they were serving Christ or not that must determine if they have faith to enter the kingdom. This is not a judgment by which the unbelieving world is judged - but of those who were given this promise. I don't see that the world was ever promised to stand again at all!

I am going with a progressive revelation view here of the change that has occurred in our hope at the resurrection of Jesus and the promise which Pentecost delivered for our justification. ;)

Mike CP King
Aug 9th 2008, 12:36 PM
Isn’t the site you reference just a propaganda site sponsored by Gary Amirault, a Universalist who teaches the error of “Universal Salvation”- the error that ultimately all mankind will be saved? Of course such error cannot deal with the biblical truth that those who reject God will receive eternal and cognitive separation from God. Do you subscribe to the notion of “Universal Salvation"?


No. I am not a universalist.

But you can simply google and look up the fact that the rich man and Lazarus was a parable. It is widely documented. That was the first one I looked up.


Btw – the record of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable it is a biblical reality



Says whom? It is a parable; you will not find any further suypport in the bible for this teachiung as Jesus was using the Pharisees' own belief system against them. It will pay you to do some mainstream theological studies on this subject especially the Hebrew concepts of Resurrection.



and it teaches the truth that at death the soul and body are separated and the conscious soul goes to a place prepared by God where the righteous and unrighteous are separated.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28 (KJV)




To place a csripture ourt of context with the rest of the bible is a distortion

Look up

Ezekiel 18:4
Numbers 23:10
Judges 16:30

The 'soul' is nothing more than physical life of the whole person. It is not something that survives death.

Here is the context of Matt 10:28

Christ added a sense of resurrection to the Hebred view of N. Throughout OT times people were afraid of those that sought N in order to destroy. Christ, however, taught: "... do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill P; rather fear him who can destroy both P and body in gehenna." (Mat. 10:28) The Hebrews believed man could kill N; but Christ instead taught that man could not kill P. Even though the Jews might try to tamper with P, ultimately they could not. When teaching his disciples to expect persecution, Christ said, "You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and kinsmen and friends, and some of you they will put to death; you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But not a hair of your head will perish. By your endurance you will gain your P." (Lk. 21:19) The Jews were challenged to see that P could be saved if P would be sacrificed. Christ's disciples learned that God still would keep P safe despite even death. "But we are not of those who shrink and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their P." (Heb. 10:39) The P that was sacrificed would receive a full existence and not the sha­dowy existence of the rephaim.

N here is 'Nephesh and P is Psuche

You can read more about what Nepsh and Psuche means
http://www.drhoff.com/Writings/writings.htm

brakelite
Aug 12th 2008, 01:14 AM
But what I see in the NT is that with the giving of the Holy Spirit, came the hope that the living soul would be kept thru death and brought into a new body immediately, though the separated body corrupted in the grave and sin with it. Therefore the OT hope was to be raised back to life and the NT hope is that we will not even taste nor see death (nor Sheol) because the Spirit has been given to us. The "rapture" is thus our hope at death as we are transformed.



I am going with a progressive revelation view here of the change that has occurred in our hope at the resurrection of Jesus and the promise which Pentecost delivered for our justification. ;)

Whilst I fully agree that the resurrection was the believer's hope, the presumption that this took place at the moment of death is unfounded.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.