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MidnightsPaleGlow
Jul 13th 2008, 04:32 AM
Hey all, it's been a few days since I last posted, but I've had a lot on my mind, and figured I would share with you the exact same rebuttal of baptismal regeneration that I'm going to share with my current church tomorrow, let me know what you think of my rebuttal of this false doctrine:

WHY BAPTISM IS NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION


There is much debate over the purpose of baptism and how it pertains to salvation, truth of the matter is, it doesn’t, it is NOT necessary for salvation AT ALL. Let’s view the core verses pertaining to baptism.

Mark 16:16-He who believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Looking at this verse we see that it says nothing about somebody who believes but ISN’T BAPTIZED. Jumping to Luke 23:39-43, with the account of the two men crucified on the cross with Christ, one of them is mocking him (he doesn’t believe), but the other cries out to Christ, confessing his faith, and Jesus promises him paradise, WITHOUT BAPTISM. The death of Christ ushered in the new covenant, so going ahead to John 19:32-33, we see that the Roman soldiers broke the bones of the two other condemned men, but not that of Jesus, as he was already dead. Since Jesus had already died at the time the soldiers were breaking the bones of the other prisoners, that was the early hours of the new covenant right there (salvation by grace alone through faith alone, NOT of works, Eph 2:8-9). It clearly is saying that belief saves, unbelief condemns.

John 3:5-Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. This passage must be examined by reading the accompanying verses directly below it, verses 6 read: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Being born of WATER refers to our natural birth, being born of the Spirit refers to our regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38-Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. This seems to say that baptism is necessary, but jumping ahead to Acts 3:19-20, Peter has this to say: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you. As we all know, nobody can come to Christ unless the Father, by means of the Holy Spirit’s ministry, draws that person (John 6:44), the Spirit’s job is to convict of sin and righteousness (John 16:8-9), so obviously, the Spirit completes his job of convicting the lost sinner and indwells him once they put their faith in Christ, as we can clearly see in Acts 10:46-48, that the Holy Spirit had already indwelled the individuals who were speaking in tongues, Peter then mentions water baptism, so those speaking in tongues were saved before water baptism, as the Holy Spirit had already come upon them. Nobody can repent of sins and come to faith in Christ apart from the working of God’s Spirit, and since those mentioned in Acts 10:46-48 were speaking in tongues, they had received the Holy Spirit (meaning they had received Christ) and were therefore saved. So really, you are baptized to show that your sins have been forgiven, not to have them forgiven, repentance is the working of God (2 Tim. 2:25) and nothing else, somebody who has the ability to repent prior to baptism is already saved.

Acts 9:17-18-When Saul has his encounter is converted, note that Ananias layed his hand onto Saul (which is often associated with Baptism of the Holy Spirit) and said to him, “Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.” Saul/Paul had his eyes opened by the Holy Spirit in the incident, he heeded the Spirit’s call and was baptized to show that he had, if the indwelling of the Holy Spirit occurs at baptism, then how come Saul/Paul got his sight prior to being water baptized? Because he had already received the Holy Spirit prior.


Romans 6:1-7-What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. If you read earlier on in Romans 5:1, Paul states that we have peace with God through faith in Christ (read the story of the thief on the cross in Luke again if necessary). So in Romans 6:1-7, water baptism is symbolic of the believer’s death and burial to their old nature, as well as their resurrection to their new nature, it is merely symbolic and has NO SAVING MERIT whatsoever, it identifies that, by reading the aforementioned commentaries, it is something we do not to BE saved, but because we already ARE saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13-For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body. Obviously this is the baptism that God does when we receive the Holy Spirit in the same way as those in Acts 10:46-48 did, prior to water baptism. Paul himself even states in 1 Cor. 1:17 that he was sent to preach the gospel and NOT to baptize, that should kill the argument right there, so baptism is, according to that one verse and the other aforementioned verses NOT necessary after all.

Galatians 3:26-27-For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. According to verse 26, by faith we become children of God, by baptism of the Holy Spirit, we are officially adopted into God’s family, we identify through water baptism that we already have become children of God, NOT to become his children, we already are by faith alone in Christ alone.

Colossians 2:9-14-For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; The circumcision spoken of in verse 11 is our inward regeneration by the Holy Spirit, which begins the moment we trust in Christ, it is the working of God, and as stated before, baptism symbolizes our death/burial/resurrection with Christ, nothing more.

1 Peter 3:18-22-For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. In verse 21, in parenthesis (in the KJV), it states “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.” God took care of all the work for salvation and there is nothing that we can do but accept or reject it, since it is a free gift received by faith alone (Rom. 6:23, Eph. 2:8-9, Rev. 3:20), our baptism identifies us with the acceptance of the gift of salvation from the penalty of our sins, eternal death in hell. We are commanded to be baptized, but if somebody puts their faith in Christ, but dies before they have a chance to be baptized, they are still saved and on their way to heaven.

VERSES THAT JUSTIFY FAITH ALONE W/OUT BAPTISM

Luke 23:42-And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. The thief on the cross who cried out to Jesus to save him was promised salvation at that moment, he DID NOT have to be baptized, nor did he have the ability to be, so people who cry out to Christ to save them on their deathbed, but don’t have a chance to be baptized, are saved and will go to heaven at their dying hour, PERIOD. In John 6:37, Jesus says that all that come to him he will never cast away, and how do lost souls come to the savior? By the Holy Spirit’s ministry, as seen in John 6:44.

John 3:16-I shall not write this one out, if you claim to be a Christian and don’t know this verse, then there’s something seriously wrong. Note how Jesus says “believes in him,” BELIEVES IN HIM, NOTHING ELSE.

John 14:6-I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jesus Christ is the only way to the Kingdom of Heaven, he doesn’t say that anything else is, he ALONE is the way to salvation.


Acts 10:43-47-To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? As you can see, the Holy Spirit came down as the message was being preached, they, by faith, were baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ and therefore were saved, as speaking in tongues was evidence of having received the Holy Spirit. As a result of them being saved (and we can tie this into 1 Peter 3:21), Peter instructs them to be baptized to show that they have ALREADY BEEN SAVED.

Acts 15:7-9-And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. In verse 7, Peter talks about hearing the gospel and believing it, in verse 8, God gives the Holy Spirit to those who accept the gospel message, and in verse 9, begins the purification and transformation, ENTIRELY BY FAITH.

Acts 16:30-31-Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. So they were already saved, and then later on in verse 33, as a result of believing/being saved, they were baptized.

Romans 2:29-But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. So we see that the circumcision of heart is accomplished by God’s Spirit, which enters into us BY FAITH.

Romans 3:24-Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. That’s correct, that passage says FREELY, to insist that we have to be baptized in addition to grace is a serious error.

Romans 4:5-But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Faith alone justifies us and nothing else.

Romans 5:1, 9, 18-Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:In verse 1, Paul notes that we have peace with God through faith in Christ, Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.In verse 9, we see that we are justified by his blood (think of the song Nothing But the Blood, “What can wash away my sins? NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Note how in verse 18, it says that salvation is a FREE GIFT. Think of it as a present in wrapping paper with a tag on it that reads (To: From: God), it’s a gift, NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO EARN IT, you either accept or (very foolishly) reject it.

Romans 6:23-[I]For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. We see what the wages of sin are, and what the gift of God is, a gift is something you receive, it is given to you, you DO NOT earn it.

Romans 10:9-10-That if thou shalt confess the with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. This passage pretty much speaks for itself.

Ephesians 2:8-9-For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Faith in Christ, as stated before, is a gift from God.

As you can see, by saying that baptism is necessary for salvation is to add a work, your own, to the finished work of Christ on the cross and puts you at terrible risk of not being saved. Please, I urge you to repent of this error immediately if you hold to it. Yes, in the book of James and in 1 Peter 3:18-22, it makes a mention of these works (well, maybe not in James, but in 1 Peter it does), but these are OUTWARD signs of INWARD change. We get baptized to demonstrate a good conscience toward God, he purified us by faith, and to disobey his commands is to be sinful, but baptism is NOT necessary for salvation, faith alone is, as stated before, if somebody dies before they have a chance to be baptized, but they put their faith in Christ, they’re saved, such as the case with the thief on the cross. In James 2:18, we see “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.” So by being baptized, we’re demonstrating our faith, it is a work, yes, but it identifies outwardly, the inward regeneration that God has accomplished. Saving faith produces works: FAITH+SALVATION=WORKS. Baptism is NOT necessary for salvation, it is something we do out of obedience AFTER salvation. Repent of this error immediately if you hold to it, the book of Galatians has a lot to say about this matter.

Butch5
Jul 13th 2008, 06:35 PM
Hey all, it's been a few days since I last posted, but I've had a lot on my mind, and figured I would share with you the exact same rebuttal of baptismal regeneration that I'm going to share with my current church tomorrow, let me know what you think of my rebuttal of this false doctrine:

WHY BAPTISM IS NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION


There is much debate over the purpose of baptism and how it pertains to salvation, truth of the matter is, it doesn’t, it is NOT necessary for salvation AT ALL. Let’s view the core verses pertaining to baptism.

Mark 16:16-He who believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Looking at this verse we see that it says nothing about somebody who believes but ISN’T BAPTIZED. Jumping to Luke 23:39-43, with the account of the two men crucified on the cross with Christ, one of them is mocking him (he doesn’t believe), but the other cries out to Christ, confessing his faith, and Jesus promises him paradise, WITHOUT BAPTISM. The death of Christ ushered in the new covenant, so going ahead to John 19:32-33, we see that the Roman soldiers broke the bones of the two other condemned men, but not that of Jesus, as he was already dead. Since Jesus had already died at the time the soldiers were breaking the bones of the other prisoners, that was the early hours of the new covenant right there (salvation by grace alone through faith alone, NOT of works, Eph 2:8-9). It clearly is saying that belief saves, unbelief condemns.

John 3:5-Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. This passage must be examined by reading the accompanying verses directly below it, verses 6 read: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Being born of WATER refers to our natural birth, being born of the Spirit refers to our regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38-Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. This seems to say that baptism is necessary, but jumping ahead to Acts 3:19-20, Peter has this to say: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you. As we all know, nobody can come to Christ unless the Father, by means of the Holy Spirit’s ministry, draws that person (John 6:44), the Spirit’s job is to convict of sin and righteousness (John 16:8-9), so obviously, the Spirit completes his job of convicting the lost sinner and indwells him once they put their faith in Christ, as we can clearly see in Acts 10:46-48, that the Holy Spirit had already indwelled the individuals who were speaking in tongues, Peter then mentions water baptism, so those speaking in tongues were saved before water baptism, as the Holy Spirit had already come upon them. Nobody can repent of sins and come to faith in Christ apart from the working of God’s Spirit, and since those mentioned in Acts 10:46-48 were speaking in tongues, they had received the Holy Spirit (meaning they had received Christ) and were therefore saved. So really, you are baptized to show that your sins have been forgiven, not to have them forgiven, repentance is the working of God (2 Tim. 2:25) and nothing else, somebody who has the ability to repent prior to baptism is already saved.

Acts 9:17-18-When Saul has his encounter is converted, note that Ananias layed his hand onto Saul (which is often associated with Baptism of the Holy Spirit) and said to him, “Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.” Saul/Paul had his eyes opened by the Holy Spirit in the incident, he heeded the Spirit’s call and was baptized to show that he had, if the indwelling of the Holy Spirit occurs at baptism, then how come Saul/Paul got his sight prior to being water baptized? Because he had already received the Holy Spirit prior.


Romans 6:1-7-What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. If you read earlier on in Romans 5:1, Paul states that we have peace with God through faith in Christ (read the story of the thief on the cross in Luke again if necessary). So in Romans 6:1-7, water baptism is symbolic of the believer’s death and burial to their old nature, as well as their resurrection to their new nature, it is merely symbolic and has NO SAVING MERIT whatsoever, it identifies that, by reading the aforementioned commentaries, it is something we do not to BE saved, but because we already ARE saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13-For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body. Obviously this is the baptism that God does when we receive the Holy Spirit in the same way as those in Acts 10:46-48 did, prior to water baptism. Paul himself even states in 1 Cor. 1:17 that he was sent to preach the gospel and NOT to baptize, that should kill the argument right there, so baptism is, according to that one verse and the other aforementioned verses NOT necessary after all.

Galatians 3:26-27-For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. According to verse 26, by faith we become children of God, by baptism of the Holy Spirit, we are officially adopted into God’s family, we identify through water baptism that we already have become children of God, NOT to become his children, we already are by faith alone in Christ alone.

Colossians 2:9-14-For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; The circumcision spoken of in verse 11 is our inward regeneration by the Holy Spirit, which begins the moment we trust in Christ, it is the working of God, and as stated before, baptism symbolizes our death/burial/resurrection with Christ, nothing more.

1 Peter 3:18-22-For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. In verse 21, in parenthesis (in the KJV), it states “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.” God took care of all the work for salvation and there is nothing that we can do but accept or reject it, since it is a free gift received by faith alone (Rom. 6:23, Eph. 2:8-9, Rev. 3:20), our baptism identifies us with the acceptance of the gift of salvation from the penalty of our sins, eternal death in hell. We are commanded to be baptized, but if somebody puts their faith in Christ, but dies before they have a chance to be baptized, they are still saved and on their way to heaven.

VERSES THAT JUSTIFY FAITH ALONE W/OUT BAPTISM

Luke 23:42-And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. The thief on the cross who cried out to Jesus to save him was promised salvation at that moment, he DID NOT have to be baptized, nor did he have the ability to be, so people who cry out to Christ to save them on their deathbed, but don’t have a chance to be baptized, are saved and will go to heaven at their dying hour, PERIOD. In John 6:37, Jesus says that all that come to him he will never cast away, and how do lost souls come to the savior? By the Holy Spirit’s ministry, as seen in John 6:44.

John 3:16-I shall not write this one out, if you claim to be a Christian and don’t know this verse, then there’s something seriously wrong. Note how Jesus says “believes in him,” BELIEVES IN HIM, NOTHING ELSE.

John 14:6-I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jesus Christ is the only way to the Kingdom of Heaven, he doesn’t say that anything else is, he ALONE is the way to salvation.


Acts 10:43-47-To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? As you can see, the Holy Spirit came down as the message was being preached, they, by faith, were baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ and therefore were saved, as speaking in tongues was evidence of having received the Holy Spirit. As a result of them being saved (and we can tie this into 1 Peter 3:21), Peter instructs them to be baptized to show that they have ALREADY BEEN SAVED.

Acts 15:7-9-And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. In verse 7, Peter talks about hearing the gospel and believing it, in verse 8, God gives the Holy Spirit to those who accept the gospel message, and in verse 9, begins the purification and transformation, ENTIRELY BY FAITH.

Acts 16:30-31-Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. So they were already saved, and then later on in verse 33, as a result of believing/being saved, they were baptized.

Romans 2:29-But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. So we see that the circumcision of heart is accomplished by God’s Spirit, which enters into us BY FAITH.

Romans 3:24-Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. That’s correct, that passage says FREELY, to insist that we have to be baptized in addition to grace is a serious error.

Romans 4:5-But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Faith alone justifies us and nothing else.

Romans 5:1, 9, 18-Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:In verse 1, Paul notes that we have peace with God through faith in Christ, Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.In verse 9, we see that we are justified by his blood (think of the song Nothing But the Blood, “What can wash away my sins? NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Note how in verse 18, it says that salvation is a FREE GIFT. Think of it as a present in wrapping paper with a tag on it that reads (To: From: God), it’s a gift, NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO EARN IT, you either accept or (very foolishly) reject it.

Romans 6:23-[I]For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. We see what the wages of sin are, and what the gift of God is, a gift is something you receive, it is given to you, you DO NOT earn it.

Romans 10:9-10-That if thou shalt confess the with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. This passage pretty much speaks for itself.

Ephesians 2:8-9-For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Faith in Christ, as stated before, is a gift from God.

As you can see, by saying that baptism is necessary for salvation is to add a work, your own, to the finished work of Christ on the cross and puts you at terrible risk of not being saved. Please, I urge you to repent of this error immediately if you hold to it. Yes, in the book of James and in 1 Peter 3:18-22, it makes a mention of these works (well, maybe not in James, but in 1 Peter it does), but these are OUTWARD signs of INWARD change. We get baptized to demonstrate a good conscience toward God, he purified us by faith, and to disobey his commands is to be sinful, but baptism is NOT necessary for salvation, faith alone is, as stated before, if somebody dies before they have a chance to be baptized, but they put their faith in Christ, they’re saved, such as the case with the thief on the cross. In James 2:18, we see “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.” So by being baptized, we’re demonstrating our faith, it is a work, yes, but it identifies outwardly, the inward regeneration that God has accomplished. Saving faith produces works: FAITH+SALVATION=WORKS. Baptism is NOT necessary for salvation, it is something we do out of obedience AFTER salvation. Repent of this error immediately if you hold to it, the book of Galatians has a lot to say about this matter.

You do err, my friend. You can try to justify your understanding of these verses by saying they speak of belief first. However in doing so you overlook the clear verses of scripture that state one must be baptized. Rather than taking your understanding of these verses, and the commentaries that you may read. Why not go to the source? Why don't you go back to the first century Church and see how they practised the doctrines that the apostles taught? See how the men who were taught by the apostles understood the issue of baptism. Theses men were there, they lived in the same culture as the apostles, spoke the same language, faced the same issues, some of them were disciples of the apostles. If anyone knew what the apostles teaching meant, it was the ones the apostles taught, the men who could ask questions if they didn't understand something. I would urge you to go and see what they had to say on the issue. Specifically look at the Ante-Nicene Fathers.

BrckBrln
Jul 13th 2008, 06:46 PM
You do err, my friend. You can try to justify your understanding of these verses by saying they speak of belief first. However in doing so you overlook the clear verses of scripture that state one must be baptized. Rather than taking your understanding of these verses, and the commentaries that you may read. Why not go to the source? Why don't you go back to the first century Church and see how they practised the doctrines that the apostles taught? See how the men who were taught by the apostles understood the issue of baptism. Theses men were there, they lived in the same culture as the apostles, spoke the same language, faced the same issues, some of them were disciples of the apostles. If anyone knew what the apostles teaching meant, it was the ones the apostles taught, the men who could ask questions if they didn't understand something. I would urge you to go and see what they had to say on the issue. Specifically look at the Ante-Nicene Fathers.

That is a terribly weak argument. An example is Irenaeus. Didn't he believe Jesus was around 50 years old when He died? Well if he said it, since he was so close to Jesus' time, then he must be right? :rolleyes:

Butch5
Jul 13th 2008, 08:09 PM
That is a terribly weak argument. An example is Irenaeus. Didn't he believe Jesus was around 50 years old when He died? Well if he said it, since he was so close to Jesus' time, then he must be right? :rolleyes:

It's not a weak argument, what is a week argument is saying that faith alone saves us when there is not a single verse of Scripture which states that. In the meantime disregarding several Scriptures that plainly state you must be baptized to be saved. The reason that I gave the Ante-Nicene Fathers, for Him to look at, is because every verse that is stated in the OP has been dealt with, and you guys refuse to believe the clear meaning of Scripture. I could sit down and take apart his entire rebuttal line by line. But what would it avail? You guys would just disregard it as you have already done. To answer your question, yes there are writings that indicate that Jesus may have been near 50. Let me ask you, do you know how old Jesus was? The bible doesn't say. So you only know form what someone said. Who said that Jesus was 33 when He died on the cross? Do you know? I doubt it. You can probably find it on the net, but do you know right now while you are reading this. I doubt it. Yet I' ll bet you believe it. The truth is you don't know how old Jesus was. So what is your point about Irenaeus? He may be right, you don't know. However, since he was the disciple of Polycarp and Polycarp was a disciple of John, I think there is a pretty good chance that He may be right. You just assume that He is wrong. If you guys would study the Scriptures and the early church and stop listening to all of these modern day theologians you would not have so many problems understanding the Scriptures. The Ante-Nicene Fathers are a wealth of understanding for those who wish to understand what was taught by the apostles. Why do you accept modern teachings readily yet reject The teachings of the men who were there?

crawfish
Jul 13th 2008, 08:27 PM
I'm always a bit amused that when someone is using scripture to justify their own theology, they will often go into great detail to explain the context of the verses that disagree with their premise, but let the scriptures that agree with it speak for themselves.

However, I have never studied this subject in as much detail as I demand above. My gut feeling is a merging of the two views; baptism is not a work that gets you saved, but it is an act of obedience that every believer should do. To avoid water baptism would be an act of disobedience; have you really given your life to God if you refuse to do this simple act?

Butch5
Jul 13th 2008, 08:37 PM
I'm always a bit amused that when someone is using scripture to justify their own theology, they will often go into great detail to explain the context of the verses that disagree with their premise, but let the scriptures that agree with it speak for themselves.

However, I have never studied this subject in as much detail as I demand above. My gut feeling is a merging of the two views; baptism is not a work that gets you saved, but it is an act of obedience that every believer should do. To avoid water baptism would be an act of disobedience; have you really given your life to God if you refuse to do this simple act?

If you take the Scriptures for what they say the clear meaning is that you must be baptized. Paul says God saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of he Holy Spirit. This is the same thing Jesus said unless a man is born of water and the Spirit He cannot see the Kingdom of God.

genesisblu
Jul 13th 2008, 08:39 PM
It's not a weak argument, what is a week argument is saying that faith alone saves us when there is not a single verse of Scripture which states that.

What bible do you read?

Acts 13:47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘ I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Luke 7:50 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=7&verse=50&version=50&context=verse)
Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”

Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&verse=8&version=50&context=verse)
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Romans 10:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=10&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

1 Cor 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

John 3
15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&version=50&context=chapter#fen-NKJV-26130b)] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That's just a few but where on earth do you see baptism in any of those? What do you see? Those that believe, have faith.

Just what do you think faith is? You may want to re read Heb 11. I believe it is faith that is the clear imperative.

BrckBrln
Jul 13th 2008, 09:14 PM
It's not a weak argument, what is a week argument is saying that faith alone saves us when there is not a single verse of Scripture which states that. In the meantime disregarding several Scriptures that plainly state you must be baptized to be saved. The reason that I gave the Ante-Nicene Fathers, for Him to look at, is because every verse that is stated in the OP has been dealt with, and you guys refuse to believe the clear meaning of Scripture. I could sit down and take apart his entire rebuttal line by line. But what would it avail? You guys would just disregard it as you have already done. To answer your question, yes there are writings that indicate that Jesus may have been near 50. Let me ask you, do you know how old Jesus was? The bible doesn't say. So you only know form what someone said. Who said that Jesus was 33 when He died on the cross? Do you know? I doubt it. You can probably find it on the net, but do you know right now while you are reading this. I doubt it. Yet I' ll bet you believe it. The truth is you don't know how old Jesus was. So what is your point about Irenaeus? He may be right, you don't know. However, since he was the disciple of Polycarp and Polycarp was a disciple of John, I think there is a pretty good chance that He may be right. You just assume that He is wrong. If you guys would study the Scriptures and the early church and stop listening to all of these modern day theologians you would not have so many problems understanding the Scriptures. The Ante-Nicene Fathers are a wealth of understanding for those who wish to understand what was taught by the apostles. Why do you accept modern teachings readily yet reject The teachings of the men who were there?

So you do believe that Jesus was 50 years old when He died? And you only believe this because Irenaeus said so? That's your problem, you follow the ECF's when you should be following what the Apostles wrote in the Bible. Not extra biblical writings by fallible men.

Butch5
Jul 13th 2008, 09:40 PM
So you do believe that Jesus was 50 years old when He died? And you only believe this because Irenaeus said so? That's your problem, you follow the ECF's when you should be following what the Apostles wrote in the Bible. Not extra biblical writings by fallible men.

First of all, I did not say I believed that Jesus was 50 years old, I have not see enough evidence either way. However I don't just accept the fact that He was 33 because someone says so. My problem is following the ECF's? Maybe I should follow Calvin or Luther, then I could be as confused as everyone else. I should be following the apostles, who do you think taught the ECF's? it was the apostles. I follow the apostles as did the ECF's. That is why I don't have the problems reconciling Scripture the way the faith only guys do. The Calvinists can't explain why Jesus warned the disciples to be careful they did not end up in hell. The "Faith Only" crowd has to come up with multiple baptisms to get around the baptismal regeneration, the Arminians also have to deal with the elect being predestined, and so on and so on. The ECF's don't have to deal with these problems, they don't have to choose between free will and predestination, because they understood what Paul meant. I don't have to choose between free will and predestination because I understand what Paul meant, because I have learned it from the ECF's Paul's teaching on free will and predestination is quite clear, can you explain how the two are reconciled? You so quickly write off the ECF's which are a gold mine. Can you read the Scriptures and tell us what they mean? Please explain how there can be predestination and free will.

BrckBrln
Jul 13th 2008, 09:48 PM
First of all, I did not say I believed that Jesus was 50 years old, I have not see enough evidence either way. However I don't just accept the fact that He was 33 because someone says so. My problem is following the ECF's? Maybe I should follow Calvin or Luther, then I could be as confused as everyone else. I should be following the apostles, who do you think taught the ECF's? it was the apostles. I follow the apostles as did the ECF's. That is why I don't have the problems reconciling Scripture the way the faith only guys do. The Calvinists can't explain why Jesus warned the disciples to be careful they did not end up in hell. The "Faith Only" crowd has to come up with multiple baptisms to get around the baptismal regeneration, the Arminians also have to deal with the elect being predestined, and so on and so on. The ECF's don't have to deal with these problems, they don't have to choose between free will and predestination, because they understood what Paul meant. I don't have to choose between free will and predestination because I understand what Paul meant, because I have learned it from the ECF's Paul's teaching on free will and predestination is quite clear, can you explain how the two are reconciled? You so quickly write off the ECF's which are a gold mine. Can you read the Scriptures and tell us what they mean? Please explain how there can be predestination and free will.

What does predestination and free will have to do with baptismal regeneration? Nothing. You seem to think that just because the ECF's were so close to Jesus' time that what they teach is right. They aren't infallible, you know? We have an infallible source called the Bible.

Have you ever played that game where you get a whole bunch of people in a circle and one person whispers something in the other person ear and it goes around the circle and when everybody has whispered, what you come out with is probably not what you started with. Just because somebody was taught by someone who was taught by an Apostle doesn't mean they are right in everything they say.

Why don't you try and explain all those scriptures that contradict your theology?

Clydson
Jul 13th 2008, 09:53 PM
So you do believe that Jesus was 50 years old when He died? And you only believe this because Irenaeus said so? That's your problem, you follow the ECF's when you should be following what the Apostles wrote in the Bible. Not extra biblical writings by fallible men.
Actually, this particular writing of Irenaeus is not as clear as you've presented it. This belief is highly contended against on the grounds of context, context being abused by forcing it to say something it does not clearly say. Some contend that Irenaeus was speaking from a Jewish mindset that catagorizes maturities of men by ages; 13 to 30 as being a young man without the qualification of being "grown". 30 to 50 as being a "grown" mature man. Irenaeus, as it seems, merely put Jesus as being in the catagory of 30 to 50 at the time of his death.

Jake

Brother Mark
Jul 13th 2008, 10:25 PM
It's not a weak argument, what is a week argument is saying that faith alone saves us when there is not a single verse of Scripture which states that.

Luke 18:9-14

9 And He also told this parable to certain ones who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer. 11 "The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, 'God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer. 12 'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.' 13 "But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' 14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted."
NASB

This publican did nothing but repent and trust God. Jesus said he went down to his house justified. He wasn't baptized before he was justified.

Butch5
Jul 13th 2008, 10:34 PM
What does predestination and free will have to do with baptismal regeneration? Nothing. You seem to think that just because the ECF's were so close to Jesus' time that what they teach is right. They aren't infallible, you know? We have an infallible source called the Bible.

Have you ever played that game where you get a whole bunch of people in a circle and one person whispers something in the other person ear and it goes around the circle and when everybody has whispered, what you come out with is probably not what you started with. Just because somebody was taught by someone who was taught by an Apostle doesn't mean they are right in everything they say.

Why don't you try and explain all those scriptures that contradict your theology?

Why didn't you answer the question, you have an infallible Bible? Just read it and tell us how to reconcile the two. Do you realize how illogical you statement is? You believe the things taught by modern theologians which are centuries removed from Christ. You believe what they say, yet you turn around and say that just because the ECF's were close to Jesus time doesn't mean they are right. They stretched over a period of about 230 years from France to Rome to North Africa to Turkey and they all taught the same things, if one of them would have been teaching heresy the others would have refuted it and it would be recorded in the writings as was the incident with Arius. They were in harmony on all of the major doctrines. Did they have some differences? Sure. Did they agree on every single point? No. Were they infallible? No. But we have a consensus, a period of over 200 years, with multiple writers, writing from all over the region in the time of the apostles and they are in agreement. What do you have? You have the reformers, several groups who could not agree among themselves, they fought with each other, had people killed, all had different doctrines, etc. You had Luther and Calvin believing one thing, Wesley believing something else, you had Arminius believing still something different. You have the Anabaptists believing still something different. This is what the reformers brought, they also brought the doctrine of "Faith Alone" which did not exist in the church prior to them. They brought the doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved" which didn't exist in the church before them. They brought the doctrine of predestination to heaven and hell, which they got from Augustine. If you take notice Augustine's doctrines did not get acceptance in the early church, as they were seen for what they were. However when Luther revived them and Calvin Propagated them with the reformed movement the got acceptance. The doctrines of "Once Saved Always Saved" and "Predestination to heaven or hell" originally came from the Gnostics. Augustine was a Gnostic before He became a Christian, and He is the one who brought Allegorical interpretation of Scripture into the church. The Gnostics believed in a higher knowledge, they believed that the flesh was corrupt and therefore Jesus could not have come in the flesh to redeem mankind. Therefore they rejected baptismal regeneration, they rejected free will, they rejected the resurrection and they rejected the idea that Jesus had come in the flesh. Since the flesh was corrupt they said that Jesus appeared in a spiritual form and not bodily. That is why John Said,


2 John 1:7 ( KJV ) 7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

So this group that denied that Jesus came in the flesh, denied baptismal regeneration, and denied free will, John says is anti-Christ. So we see the doctrines that the early church fought so hard against were actually introduced into the church by the reformers. The doctrines that they fought so hard against are being defended in the church today. Was the early church wrong? Were the Gnostics, the ones John calls anti-Christ, the ones who had the true doctrines of the the apostles?

Think about it before you dismiss them so quickly.

Butch5
Jul 13th 2008, 10:37 PM
Luke 18:9-14

9 And He also told this parable to certain ones who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer. 11 "The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, 'God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer. 12 'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.' 13 "But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' 14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted."
NASB

This publican did nothing but repent and trust God. Jesus said he went down to his house justified. He wasn't baptized before he was justified.


It also doesn't say he was saved.

genesisblu
Jul 13th 2008, 10:43 PM
It also doesn't say he was saved.

So now God is in the habit of justifying unbelievers? Are you serious? How much are people going to twist the truth for the sake of trying to make their points?

Butch5
Jul 13th 2008, 11:02 PM
So now God is in the habit of justifying unbelievers? Are you serious? How much are people going to twist the truth for the sake of trying to make their points?

No twisting Scriptures, I said I don't have to do that. You see salvation as a one time event, that is why you have problems. As I said previously, salvation is two fold. When a person is initially saved, it is by grace through faith. That is part one. So the justified man is initially saved, however he is not ultimately saved until the resurrection. So He must, as Jesus says, endure to the end, to be saved. So as the tax collector went away justified and had initial salvation, he had at that point not yet endured til end to be saved. So you see there is no twisting of the Scriptures.

losthorizon
Jul 13th 2008, 11:11 PM
This publican did nothing but repent and trust God. Jesus said he went down to his house justified. He wasn't baptized before he was justified.
Did the publican live before or after the New Covenant became a reality? Was the publican ever under the command to be baptized for the remission of sins - in the name of God or was that command given after the death of the "testator" of a "better covenant"? Does the New Covenant include the command to be baptized in water as part of the gospel of Christ? Does the justification of the publican negate Christ's command to be baptized?
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. (Heb 9)

Brother Mark
Jul 13th 2008, 11:26 PM
Did the publican live before or after the New Covenant became a reality? Was the publican ever under the command to be baptized for the remission of sins - in the name of God or was that command given after the death of the "testator" of a "better covenant"? Does the New Covenant include the command to be baptized in water as part of the gospel of Christ? Does the justification of the publican negate Christ's command to be baptized?
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. (Heb 9)

Salvation has always been by faith, from Abraham, to Moses, to the publican to the thief on the cross, to Paul, to Romans all the way to you and I. I was saved long before I was baptized.

losthorizon
Jul 13th 2008, 11:29 PM
Salvation has always been by faith, from Abraham, to Moses, to the publican to the thief on the cross, to Paul, to Romans all the way to you and I. I was saved long before I was baptized.
Don’t forget obedience - ie - obedient faith, a faith that obeys - “Abraham by faith…obeyed. You didn’t answer my questions. ;)

Brother Mark
Jul 13th 2008, 11:33 PM
Don’t forget obedience - ie - obedient faith, a faith that obeys - “Abraham by faith…obeyed. You didn’t answer my questions. ;)

That's because you asked a question framed in dispensational thinking. I see no dispensation when it comes to salvation. It has always been by faith and that living faith always lead to obedience. Dead faith doesn't obey but live faith does. One with living faith is saved. The covenants are different. The means of salvation isn't.

As Jesus said...

John 8:55-56
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
NASB

I was saved years before I was baptized. It was an amazing miracle and one that delivered me from much sin. As I came to understand what had happened, I obeyed and got baptized. But there is no doubt that the Holy Spirit resided in me when he did not before. I got baptized when I knew to do so. But my salvation was secure long before baptism occurred, just as it was for Abraham, the publican and the thief on the cross.

Butch5
Jul 13th 2008, 11:45 PM
That's because you asked a question framed in dispensational thinking. I see no dispensation when it comes to salvation. It has always been by faith and that living faith always lead to obedience. Dead faith doesn't obey but live faith does. One with living faith is saved. The covenants are different. The means of salvation isn't.

As Jesus said...

John 8:55-56
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
NASB

I was saved years before I was baptized. It was an amazing miracle and one that delivered me from much sin. As I came to understand what had happened, I obeyed and got baptized. But there is no doubt that the Holy Spirit resided in me when he did not before. I got baptized when I knew to do so. But my salvation was secure long before baptism occurred, just as it was for Abraham, the publican and the thief on the cross.

That may or may not be the case, however Scripture says you must be baptized. All of those you just mentioned lived under hte old covenant.

Brother Mark
Jul 13th 2008, 11:48 PM
That may or may not be the case, however Scripture says you must be baptized. All of those you just mentioned lived under hte old covenant.

Not all of them. I didn't live under the old covenant. ;)

Paul was saved before he was baptized. He was hearing God. Praying and seeing visions from God. That is not something that happens to a lost man. God revealed to him that Ananias would be coming to give him his sight back and Ananias taught him about baptism.

Romans 10 teaches that one is saved through faith.

John 3 also teaches about salvation through faith.

Genesis teaches salvation by faith.

Faith is the key element for salvation in all of scripture. Salvation always has been by faith. Circumcision didn't save in the OT nor does baptism save in the new. Though both are signs of the covenant.

genesisblu
Jul 14th 2008, 12:10 AM
To Butch and Lost: do you both believe there is a difference between initial salvation and further earning (or as I am sure you will say persevering in) salvation? The "first" and "second" step salvation plan?

So is this your position...you may be "saved" after belief but you are not necessarily saved for eternity until you have also done x, w and z?

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 12:57 AM
Not all of them. I didn't live under the old covenant. ;)

Paul was saved before he was baptized. He was hearing God. Praying and seeing visions from God. That is not something that happens to a lost man. God revealed to him that Ananias would be coming to give him his sight back and Ananias taught him about baptism.

Romans 10 teaches that one is saved through faith.

John 3 also teaches about salvation through faith.

Genesis teaches salvation by faith.

Faith is the key element for salvation in all of scripture. Salvation always has been by faith. Circumcision didn't save in the OT nor does baptism save in the new. Though both are signs of the covenant.


You are correct in your statement. Faith is the key element, however it is not the only element. Faith is how a person comes in contact with the gospel. Before you can do anything you must believe. Salvation does not end there.

How can you say Paul was saved before He was baptized. Jesus said, He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 01:01 AM
To Butch and Lost: do you both believe there is a difference between initial salvation and further earning (or as I am sure you will say persevering in) salvation? The "first" and "second" step salvation plan?

So is this your position...you may be "saved" after belief but you are not necessarily saved for eternity until you have also done x, w and z?

I can't speak for lost, however I have already stated my position. Salvation is a two fold process. The Bible speaks of, you have been saved and you shall be saved. The initial step is by grace through faith. The second step is obedience to Christ, you must endure to the end

genesisblu
Jul 14th 2008, 01:10 AM
I can't speak for lost, however I have already stated my position. Salvation is a two fold process. The Bible speaks of, you have been saved and you shall be saved. The initial step is by grace through faith. The second step is obedience to Christ, you must endure to the end

Well by that I understand where you are coming from. I don't agree with it but I understand it now. For the purpose of this OP though I believe you would agree that baptism is not required to be considered "initially saved" then yes? Which I believe you have answered at one point, "yes". So your specific argument is another discussion entirely I think.

watchinginawe
Jul 14th 2008, 01:21 AM
That may or may not be the case, however Scripture says you must be baptized. All of those you just mentioned lived under hte old covenant.Since you say that scripture declares baptism is a "must" (the vehicle or mechanism of God's grace conferred upon the believer), then is belief in baptism as a "must" a "must" when being baptized?

God Bless!

Athanasius
Jul 14th 2008, 01:28 AM
It's not a weak argument, what is a week argument is saying that faith alone saves us when there is not a single verse of Scripture which states that.
Romans 4:1-5

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Faith alone saves us.
Your turn, and no implying and I'm anti-Christ.

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 02:22 AM
Well by that I understand where you are coming from. I don't agree with it but I understand it now. For the purpose of this OP though I believe you would agree that baptism is not required to be considered "initially saved" then yes? Which I believe you have answered at one point, "yes". So your specific argument is another discussion entirely I think.

One is saved but not yet born again nor has received the Holy Spirit.

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 02:23 AM
Since you say that scripture declares baptism is a "must" (the vehicle or mechanism of God's grace conferred upon the believer), then is belief in baptism as a "must" a "must" when being baptized?

God Bless!

I don't understand exactly what you are saying.

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 02:33 AM
Romans 4:1-5

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Faith alone saves us.
Your turn, and no implying and I'm anti-Christ.

My turn for what? I have already dealt with plenty of verses that only mention faith. First of all Abraham lived under the old covenant, which did not require baptism. Secondly, I didn't imply anyone was Antichrist. I merely stated some historical facts, If anyone holds the positions that the Gnostics held, that is their decision. If you do a little research you will find that what I posted is true.

Athanasius
Jul 14th 2008, 02:49 AM
My turn for what? I have already dealt with plenty of verses that only mention faith. First of all Abraham lived under the old covenant, which did not require baptism. Secondly, I didn't imply anyone was Antichrist. I merely stated some historical facts, If anyone holds the positions that the Gnostics held, that is their decision. If you do a little research you will find that what I posted is true.

Abraham lived under the Old Covenant and yet Paul is using Abraham as an example of faith based salvation, which is not predicated upon works? Come on bud, retorting with 'Abraham was under the Old Covenant' is an extremely poor piece of reasoning, there's no two ways about it. Think about it for a minute. You're telling us that under the Old Covenant, faith was all we needed for salvation. Under the New Covenant we need to add works to our faith. Think about it.

If you're going to tell us what positions the Gnostics held, showing that we apparently hold the same position. Then cite scripture calling these people anti-Christ, what else are we supposed to think? Of course that's what you're implying.

Brother Mark
Jul 14th 2008, 02:54 AM
My turn for what? I have already dealt with plenty of verses that only mention faith. First of all Abraham lived under the old covenant, which did not require baptism. Secondly, I didn't imply anyone was Antichrist. I merely stated some historical facts, If anyone holds the positions that the Gnostics held, that is their decision. If you do a little research you will find that what I posted is true.

But Paul was using Abraham as an example to new covenant believers for what reason? To show them that salvation has always been by faith. From the beginning to the end, salvation has only come one way, through trusting God. Works didn't save Abraham, but because he had faith, he had works. When one has true saving faith, he'll get baptized out of obedience to God's command.

Ephesians states that by grace are we saved through faith. It doesn't mention baptism. Matthew quotes Christ as saying that we should go into all the world making disciples and baptizing them. Once someone is a disciple, then they are qualified for baptism. The thief on the cross was saved without baptism. Abraham was saved without circumcision. The publican was saved without baptism.

I was saved for a couple of years before I got baptized. Once I knew what I was supposed to do, I did it. But God radically changed my life and delivered me of sin long before I was ever dunked. The Holy Spirit spoke to me and resided in me long before water ever went over me.

God also spoke to Paul and answered Paul's prayers before he was baptized.

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 03:01 AM
Abraham lived under the Old Covenant and yet Paul is using Abraham as an example of faith based salvation, which is not predicated upon works? Come on bud, retorting with 'Abraham was under the Old Covenant' is an extremely poor piece of reasoning, there's no two ways about it. Think about it for a minute. You're telling us that under the Old Covenant, faith was all we needed for salvation. Under the New Covenant we need to add works to our faith. Think about it.

If you're going to tell us what positions the Gnostics held, showing that we apparently hold the same position. Then cite scripture calling these people anti-Christ, what else are we supposed to think? Of course that's what you're implying.

My comment about Abraham being under the old covenant was in reference to baptism, which is a new testament command. You cannot show in Scripture any verse that states "faith alone." As far as the Gnostics go, among the doctrines that I showed, OSAS and predestination to heaven and hell, they believed that Jesus did not come in the body. John speaks of the Gnostics,


2 John 1:7 ( KJV ) 7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

These are John's words not mine. Instead of sitting here arguing with me that we are saved by faith alone, why not take the time to look this up for yourself and you can see if what I said is true?

watchinginawe
Jul 14th 2008, 03:01 AM
I don't understand exactly what you are saying.You have stated that the scriptures declare baptism is a "must" in salvation.

So the question is this. Suppose someone believes they are saved and then is baptized without believing that the baptism is what "saves" them. What is their status? If baptism is a "must", then is belief in baptism being a "must" a... "must" for being scripturally baptized in your opinion?

What are your thoughts? What is the status of someone who believes, is baptized, but doesn't believe their baptism saved them?

I hope that explains the question a little better.

God Bless!

Brother Mark
Jul 14th 2008, 03:09 AM
My comment about Abraham being under the old covenant was in reference to baptism, which is a new testament command. You cannot show in Scripture any verse that states "faith alone."

Well, there's plenty of scripture that suggest "living faith" saves folks. Here's just one.

Eph 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
NASB

There are other passages too. Though I am not sure I wish to push the issue too hard this evening.

Athanasius
Jul 14th 2008, 03:14 AM
My comment about Abraham being under the old covenant was in reference to baptism, which is a new testament command.

Then again we must return to the scripture I posted:

Romans 4:1-5

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Consider what is in bold. It's also worth considering the sentence that immediate follows that has been put in bold. Let's change the verse up a little, hopefully what I'm about to do isn't heresy.

Now to the one who is baptized, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. See what I've done there? We're commanded to be baptized, on that I don't disagree. But baptism doesn't decide the state of our salvation.



You cannot show in Scripture any verse that states "faith alone."

I believe I just did... Again.



As far as the Gnostics go, among the doctrines that I showed, OSAS and predestination to heaven and hell, they believed that Jesus did not come in the body. John speaks of the Gnostics,

2 John 1:7 ( KJV ) 7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

These are John's words not mine. Instead of sitting here arguing with me that we are saved by faith alone, why not take the time to look this up for yourself and you can see if what I said is true?

Well now you're saying something completely different. Before you said: So this group that denied that Jesus came in the flesh, denied baptismal regeneration, and denied free will, John says is anti-Christ.

I'm fully prepared to say, "Hey, maybe I'm wrong". The question is, are you? And in this case I have studied... I don't believe I'm wrong.

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 03:21 AM
But Paul was using Abraham as an example to new covenant believers for what reason? To show them that salvation has always been by faith. From the beginning to the end, salvation has only come one way, through trusting God. Works didn't save Abraham, but because he had faith, he had works. When one has true saving faith, he'll get baptized out of obedience to God's command.

Ephesians states that by grace are we saved through faith. It doesn't mention baptism. Matthew quotes Christ as saying that we should go into all the world making disciples and baptizing them. Once someone is a disciple, then they are qualified for baptism. The thief on the cross was saved without baptism. Abraham was saved without circumcision. The publican was saved without baptism.

I was saved for a couple of years before I got baptized. Once I knew what I was supposed to do, I did it. But God radically changed my life and delivered me of sin long before I was ever dunked. The Holy Spirit spoke to me and resided in me long before water ever went over me.

God also spoke to Paul and answered Paul's prayers before he was baptized.

Your correct salvation has always been by faith, by trusting God however that does not mean that we do nothing. You say Abraham was not saved by works, let me ask you this. Suppose Abraham had said no When the Lord told Him to leave His home and go to hte land that the Lord sent Him. Would God have counted it as righteousness? Would Abraham have received the promises? Would He be the father of all who believe through faith? Suppose Abraham had said no when God told Him to offer Issac on the altar. Who God count it as righteousness? would Abraham be the Father of all who believe through faith? Let's see what God says,


Genesis 22:15-18 ( NKJV ) 15Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— 17blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

So we see that the promises that were made to Abraham, came to him because he OBEYED God. Not just because He believed. You notice that he was counted righteous because he believed, but he did not get the guarantee until he acted. Likewise we get the promise when we believe, but we don't get the guarantee until we act.

ariel_jesus237
Jul 14th 2008, 03:25 AM
I am saved because I have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and have been saved for quite a while now. I haven't been baptized yet but I still have faith that my Lord has saved me and I continue to seek His glory and do His will, does that mean because I am not baptized I am not saved yet and if I die I will go where the unsaved go? I believe the man on the cross next to Jesus who had faith in Him was a perfect example, was he baptized? Do you believe he is saved?

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 03:27 AM
Then again we must return to the scripture I posted:

Romans 4:1-5

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Consider what is in bold. It's also worth considering the sentence that immediate follows that has been put in bold. Let's change the verse up a little, hopefully what I'm about to do isn't heresy.

Now to the one who is baptized, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. See what I've done there? We're commanded to be baptized, on that I don't disagree. But baptism doesn't decide the state of our salvation.



I believe I just did... Again.



Well now you're saying something completely different. Before you said: So this group that denied that Jesus came in the flesh, denied baptismal regeneration, and denied free will, John says is anti-Christ.

I'm fully prepared to say, "Hey, maybe I'm wrong". The question is, are you? And in this case I have studied... I don't believe I'm wrong.

The doctrines that I listed in the first post about the Gnostics are representative. The Gnostics held to fate, all things were already determined, those who would go to heaven and those who would go to hell, they also held to OSAS, thy rejected Baptismal regeneration, they rejected the resurrection, and the idea that Christ came in the flesh. And John called them Antichrist.

Athanasius
Jul 14th 2008, 03:28 AM
The doctrines that I listed in the first post about the Gnostics are representative. The Gnostics held to fate, all things were already determined, those who would go to heaven and those who would go to hell, they also held to OSAS, thy rejected Baptismal regeneration, they rejected the resurrection, and the idea that Christ came in the flesh. And John called them Antichrist.

Okay, but you and I both know that the Gnostic portion of your post is irrelevant to the discussion. So lets both agree to stop talking about that and you can post a response to what I've written about Baptism.

watchinginawe
Jul 14th 2008, 03:30 AM
I haven't been baptized yet but I still have faith that my Lord has saved me and I continue to seek His glory and do His will,Hello ariel_jesus. Have you sought the Lord's will regarding baptism? What do you think the Lord's will is on the matter? You know Jesus Himself submitted to John's baptism. Read up and see what God the Father had to say when this happened.

God Bless!

ps: Yes, I believe you are saved by placing your trust for salvation in Jesus Christ.

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 03:35 AM
You have stated that the scriptures declare baptism is a "must" in salvation.

So the question is this. Suppose someone believes they are saved and then is baptized without believing that the baptism is what "saves" them. What is their status? If baptism is a "must", then is belief in baptism being a "must" a... "must" for being scripturally baptized in your opinion?

What are your thoughts? What is the status of someone who believes, is baptized, but doesn't believe their baptism saved them?

I hope that explains the question a little better.

God Bless!

Hi watching,

I hold to the early church on baptism. To answer your question, if a person believes and is baptized they are saved. If they do not know that baptism is necessary for salvation it does not make a difference, because it is not what they understand, it is what God does during the baptism that is what saves. It was the belief in the early church that God spiritually regenerates a person during the baptism.

genesisblu
Jul 14th 2008, 03:39 AM
One is saved but not yet born again nor has received the Holy Spirit.

What? Not born again or received the Holy Spirit? Just when exactly do you think one receives the Holy Spirit? How do they receive it?

genesisblu
Jul 14th 2008, 03:41 AM
Hi watching,

I hold to the early church on baptism. To answer your question, if a person believes and is baptized they are saved. If they do not know that baptism is necessary for salvation it does not make a difference, because it is not what they understand, it is what God does during the baptism that is what saves. It was the belief in the early church that God spiritually regenerates a person during the baptism.

What early church would this be? Would you care to give the scripture where John says anyone receives the Holy Spirit during his baptism?

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 03:45 AM
I am saved because I have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and have been saved for quite a while now. I haven't been baptized yet but I still have faith that my Lord has saved me and I continue to seek His glory and do His will, does that mean because I am not baptized I am not saved yet and if I die I will go where the unsaved go? I believe the man on the cross next to Jesus who had faith in Him was a perfect example, was he baptized? Do you believe he is saved?

Hi Ariel,

First let me say God is not limited, and can do whatever He wants. If God chooses to save someone without baptism, He can. However this is not the normal way that He works. If you are not baptized I would seek to be baptized as soon as possible. If you are a faithful believer and something happened before you were baptized you are still saved. However if you know that you should be baptized and do not, then you are in disobedience and I would be concerned at that point. Notice in the Scriptures, when people believed they were immediately baptized, so they did not deal with this problem. When the thief on the cross was saved Jesus was still alive, so the new covenant had not yet started. After Jesus died ,then baptism was required. So yes I believe the thief was saved, but He didn't need to be baptized.

watchinginawe
Jul 14th 2008, 03:47 AM
Hi watching,

I hold to the early church on baptism. To answer your question, if a person believes and is baptized they are saved. If they do not know that baptism is necessary for salvation it does not make a difference, because it is not what they understand, it is what God does during the baptism that is what saves. It was the belief in the early church that God spiritually regenerates a person during the baptism.Have you clarified the source for the above? Is so, can you point me to the post? Also, would that understanding of ECF also include infant baptism, and if not, why not?

God Bless!

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 03:49 AM
Okay, but you and I both know that the Gnostic portion of your post is irrelevant to the discussion. So lets both agree to stop talking about that and you can post a response to what I've written about Baptism.


The post about the Gnostics was to BrckBrln.

losthorizon
Jul 14th 2008, 03:51 AM
To Butch and Lost: do you both believe there is a difference between initial salvation and further earning (or as I am sure you will say persevering in) salvation? The "first" and "second" step salvation plan?

So is this your position...you may be "saved" after belief but you are not necessarily saved for eternity until you have also done x, w and z?
You appear to imply that one must “earn salvation” in some way - is that what you think Holy Writ teaches? Doesn’t the Bible teach that salvation comes by grace through faith - not by works of merit?
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph 2:8-10 (KJV)You will have to define what you mean by - The "first" and "second" step salvation plan - it is not a term I am familiar with or read about in Scripture. Is it something you just made up? Conversion comes when one obeys from the heart the gospel of Christ and that gospel includes belief, repentance and baptism. You have never answered my question - is the ordinace of baptism a command found in the preaching of the gospel of Christ as presented in the NT? Are the commands of Christ in the gospel of grace - belief, repentance and batism in water essential to His gospel?
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost…And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Acts 2The the NT does speak of salvation in all three tenses - past, present, future…
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8, 9)

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)

Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? (Hebrews 1:14)

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 03:52 AM
What early church would this be? Would you care to give the scripture where John says anyone receives the Holy Spirit during his baptism?

The early Christian church.

Your question about John, what post are you referencing?

Athanasius
Jul 14th 2008, 03:52 AM
The post about the Gnostics was to BrckBrln.

I replied because you quoted me :P

genesisblu
Jul 14th 2008, 03:54 AM
Baptismal regeneration and salvation by works...false, false, false!

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 03:54 AM
What? Not born again or received the Holy Spirit? Just when exactly do you think one receives the Holy Spirit? How do they receive it?

The same way Jesus received it after the baptism. I believe that a person is born again during the baptism and receives the Holy Spirit after baptism as Jesus showed and also as Peter states in Act 2:38.

losthorizon
Jul 14th 2008, 04:06 AM
Baptismal regeneration and salvation by works...false, false, false!
Baptismal regeneration is the non-biblical teaching that the water of baptism saves apart from faith - ie - baptism of the profoundly mentally retarded, infant baptism, etc - ie - baptizing (sprinkling) those who are incapable of believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 14th 2008, 04:08 AM
Very few church fathers believed that Baptism saved us. Justin Martyr states in Dialog with Trypho the Jew that baptism is the new circumcision - it is a marking of person, set aside for God.

I am currently in between the Presbyterian view of baptism (which allows for infants) and the Baptist view (which does not). One thing I would stress, however, is that baptism is in no way salvific. This would be a work added onto grace - it would be something we would have to do, which would then be us securing our salvation. We could boast, because we took a stand and we were baptized.

BrckBrln
Jul 14th 2008, 04:08 AM
Can somebody give some scripture that states the plan of salvation has changed from the Old to the New Testament? Why would God change salvation from faith in the Old to faith plus baptism in the New?

watchinginawe
Jul 14th 2008, 04:10 AM
Peter's Gospel message at the house of Cornelius climaxes in the following:

Acts 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

And then, the Holy Ghost seals the message at that exact point and baptizes all those present:

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Peter, recognizing that these believers had the full acceptance of God, then commands them to be baptized of water:

46 ...Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Now, did Peter just get interupted before the whole message of salvation could be given out? Peter had occassion to correct himself if that was the case. But we find in his account of the events the following:

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

So again in verse 17 we see where God confers the gift upon belief only and thus Peter could not then withold baptism (performed by men). God had already placed His seal on those believers placing no difference between the Jews and the Gentiles.

And again, later, in the Jerusalem Counsel, we have Peter rising to say:

Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.


I don't know how the above could be any more plain. The Gospel of Jesus Christ was preached (see the Acts 10 passage above), the Gentiles believed, and God, which knew their hearts, purified their hearts by their faith in Jesus Christ! Where is baptism in the above? How did the Gentiles who heard the Gospel by Peter have their heart purified?

Now, that is the last we hear of Peter in the book of Acts. He was mature in the Gospel of salvation by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

God Bless!

apothanein kerdos
Jul 14th 2008, 04:11 AM
Can somebody give some scripture that states the plan of salvation has changed from the Old to the New Testament? Why would God change salvation from faith in the Old to faith plus baptism in the New?

He didn't. The works of the Law in the Old Testament - animal sacrifice, keeping the high holy days, circumcision - all foreshadowed what was to come. They were followed not to obtain salvation, but instead out of faith. Paul says as much when discussing that Abraham was saved by faith.

Likewise, since circumcision was done out of faith that already existed (e.g. salvation) and was done to set the person aside, baptism does the same. It doesn't save us, it is done by faith that is already present in us, and is done to set us aside.

BrckBrln
Jul 14th 2008, 04:13 AM
He didn't. The works of the Law in the Old Testament - animal sacrifice, keeping the high holy days, circumcision - all foreshadowed what was to come. They were followed not to obtain salvation, but instead out of faith. Paul says as much when discussing that Abraham was saved by faith.

Likewise, since circumcision was done out of faith that already existed (e.g. salvation) and was done to set the person aside, baptism does the same. It doesn't save us, it is done by faith that is already present in us, and is done to set us aside.

Agreed. I don't see why God would change the most important thing He ever did, that is, give us salvation.

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 04:15 AM
Have you clarified the source for the above? Is so, can you point me to the post? Also, would that understanding of ECF also include infant baptism, and if not, why not?

God Bless!

Hi Watching,

I will have to find the reference in ECF's for you. Regarding infant baptism it appears some of them did, I will have to look to see what the reason was. My understanding is that one should believe before being baptized. However Jesus said He who believes and is baptized shall be saved, the normal method is to believe and then be baptized. I will have to look and see it they thought the order could be reversed.

losthorizon
Jul 14th 2008, 04:19 AM
You have stated that the scriptures declare baptism is a "must" in salvation.

So the question is this. Suppose someone believes they are saved and then is baptized without believing that the baptism is what "saves" them. What is their status? If baptism is a "must", then is belief in baptism being a "must" a... "must" for being scripturally baptized in your opinion?

What are your thoughts? What is the status of someone who believes, is baptized, but doesn't believe their baptism saved them?


I am trying to understand your question - why would one think it is baptism that saves them. Isn’t it the blood of Christ that saves?
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot…1 Peter 1:18-19 (KJV)

watchinginawe
Jul 14th 2008, 04:21 AM
Hi Watching,

I will have to find the reference in ECF's for you. Regarding infant baptism it appears some of them did, I will have to look to see what the reason was. My understanding is that one should believe before being baptized. However Jesus said He who believes and is baptized shall be saved, the normal method is to believe and then be baptized. I will have to look and see it they thought the order could be reversed.OK, whenever you get a chance. If not this discussion, then maybe a later. I can tell you that you are fairly unique in your view here so you will have plenty of opportunity in the future to clarify. ;)

God Bless!

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 04:24 AM
Very few church fathers believed that Baptism saved us. Justin Martyr states in Dialog with Trypho the Jew that baptism is the new circumcision - it is a marking of person, set aside for God.

I am currently in between the Presbyterian view of baptism (which allows for infants) and the Baptist view (which does not). One thing I would stress, however, is that baptism is in no way salvific. This would be a work added onto grace - it would be something we would have to do, which would then be us securing our salvation. We could boast, because we took a stand and we were baptized.

What church fathers are you looking at? The early church is in unison.
Here are a few,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Barnabas 70-130
Further, what says He? "And there was a river flowing on the right, and from it arose beautiful trees; and whosoever shall eat of them shall live for ever." (Ezek. 47:12) This meaneth, that we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit. "And whosoever shall eat of these shall live for ever,"
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Hermas 150

And I said to him, "I should like to continue my questions." "Speak on," said he. And I said, "I heard, sir, some teachers maintain that there is no other repentance than that which takes place, when we descended into the water and received remission of our former sins." He said to me, "That was sound doctrine which you heard; for that is really the case. For he who has received remission of his sins ought not to sin any more, but to live in purity

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Hermas 150

Accordingly, those also who fell asleep received the seal of the Son of God. For," he continued, "before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life. The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Justin Martyr 160

Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Justin Martyr 160
But there is no other [way] than this,—to become acquainted with this Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins; and for the rest, to live sinless lives."

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus 180 Disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John.
In refuting the Gnostics

And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus 180

"And dipped himself," says [the Scripture], "seven times in Jordan." (2 Ki. 5:14) It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [it served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (John 3:5)
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Clement of Alexandria 195

Then within the same period John prophesied till the baptism of salvation; and after the birth of Christ, Anna and Simeon.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 195

Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life!
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 195

But we, little fishes, after the example of our ΙΧΘΥΣ3III-2-3 Jesus Christ, are born in water,
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 195

When, however, the prescript is laid down that "without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless one be born of water, he hath not life" (John 3:5, not fully given)), there arise immediately scrupulous, nay rather audacious, doubts on the part of some,
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 9
Origen 228

Matthew alone adds the words "to repentance," teaching that the benefit of baptism is connected with the intention of the baptized person; to him who repents it is salutary, but to him who comes to it without repentance it will turn to greater condemnation.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 9
Origen 228
"by the laver of regeneration," (Titus 3:5) through which they were born "as new-born babes,
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 6
Pamohilius 309

Of the divine descent of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost which lighted on them who believed. In this we have also the instruction delivered by Peter, and * passages from the prophets on the subject, and * on the passion and resurrection and assumption of Christ, and the gift of the Holy Ghost; also * of the faith of those present, and their salvation by baptism; and, further,* of the unity of spirit pervading the believers and promoting the common good, and of the addition made to their number.

losthorizon
Jul 14th 2008, 04:24 AM
Very few church fathers believed that Baptism saved us. Justin Martyr states in Dialog with Trypho the Jew that baptism is the new circumcision - it is a marking of person, set aside for God.

I am currently in between the Presbyterian view of baptism (which allows for infants) and the Baptist view (which does not). One thing I would stress, however, is that baptism is in no way salvific. This would be a work added onto grace - it would be something we would have to do, which would then be us securing our salvation. We could boast, because we took a stand and we were baptized.
According to the gospel of Christ do you have to believe to please God? Do you have to repent or perish according to Jesus Christ? Did you believe and repent at your own conversion? Did you "add work onto grace"?

apothanein kerdos
Jul 14th 2008, 04:24 AM
Hi Watching,

I will have to find the reference in ECF's for you. Regarding infant baptism it appears some of them did, I will have to look to see what the reason was. My understanding is that one should believe before being baptized. However Jesus said He who believes and is baptized shall be saved, the normal method is to believe and then be baptized. I will have to look and see it they thought the order could be reversed.

Most of the earliest church fathers taught that it was a sign of circumcision. Unfortunately, you're going to get a lot of Platonic thought in their thinking. Some of them will argue that the body is inherently full of sin while the spirit is pure (this is from Plato, not the Bible), thus baptism had to be given to infants.

I tend to think if one will believe in infant baptism, Justin Martyr's view or the description of Polycarp (disciple of John and Polycarp was baptized as a baby, showing this was occurring while the disciples still lived) is the best one - it is most in line with the Presbyterian view of baptism as well. It doesn't view it as salvific, but that some type of grace is imparted onto the child that establishes him as a member of a covenant community. It does not save him, but it does protect him and is significant. If one wasn't baptized as an infant, then one should be baptized when one accepts Christ.

Keep in mind that in the Bible there wasn't an established lineage of Christians, so almost everyone coming to Christ was a first generation Christian that didn't grow up in a Christian home.

watchinginawe
Jul 14th 2008, 04:25 AM
I am trying to understand your question - why would one think it is baptism that saves them. Isn’t it the blood of Christ that saves?

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot…1 Peter 1:18-19 (KJV)
lh, I am fairly certain that your view is that the actual water baptism is specifically for the remission of sins. Therefore, if I believe and place my faith and trust in that the blood of Christ saves us, which I do, but yet do not get baptized, then I am yet in my sins because they have not been remitted.

Have you changed your view? Clarifiy and I can go a little further on the distinction I am trying to put forth.

God Bless!

apothanein kerdos
Jul 14th 2008, 04:29 AM
According to the gospel of Christ do you have to believe to please God? Do you have to repent or perish according to Jesus Christ? Did you believe and repent at your own conversion? Did you "add work onto grace"?

Considering it is God that draws His elect unto Him, it is not a work of our own. God puts the faith in us - we are merely acting on something that is irresistible. ;)


Butch,

You're misinterpreting some of them, others you are accurate - some believed that water baptism saved us (but, of course, they are wrong).

The thing you need to do is look deeper into Scripture first and compare Scripture's teachings to the ECF. For instance, do you believe Mary was sinless? Most of the ECF do believe she was sinless.

You have to keep in mind that most of the ECF are Greek, not Jewish, believers. This means they came to Christ with Platonic presuppositions about the world. Much of their teachings were, unfortunately, tainted by this teaching. They have a low view of the body. Their teaching on water baptism being salvific then is an extension of this and not of Scripture.

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 04:34 AM
Peter's Gospel message at the house of Cornelius climaxes in the following:

Acts 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

And then, the Holy Ghost seals the message at that exact point and baptizes all those present:

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Peter, recognizing that these believers had the full acceptance of God, then commands them to be baptized of water:

46 ...Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Now, did Peter just get interupted before the whole message of salvation could be given out? Peter had occassion to correct himself if that was the case. But we find in his account of the events the following:

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

So again in verse 17 we see where God confers the gift upon belief only and thus Peter could not then withold baptism (performed by men). God had already placed His seal on those believers placing no difference between the Jews and the Gentiles.

And again, later, in the Jerusalem Counsel, we have Peter rising to say:

Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.


I don't know how the above could be any more plain. The Gospel of Jesus Christ was preached (see the Acts 10 passage above), the Gentiles believed, and God, which knew their hearts, purified their hearts by their faith in Jesus Christ! Where is baptism in the above? How did the Gentiles who heard the Gospel by Peter have their heart purified?

Now, that is the last we hear of Peter in the book of Acts. He was mature in the Gospel of salvation by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

God Bless!


You really need to read the whole chapter to see why the Holy Spirit came to them before they were baptized.

losthorizon
Jul 14th 2008, 04:36 AM
lh, I am fairly certain that your view is that the actual water baptism is specifically for the remission of sins. Therefore, if I believe and place my faith and trust in that the blood of Christ saves us, which I do, but yet do not get baptized, then I am yet in my sins because they have not been remitted.

Have you changed your view? Clarifiy and I can go a little further on the distinction I am trying to put forth.

God Bless!
The NT teaches that one’s sins are remitted at the point of immersion in water by the blood of Jesus Christ. Baptism is the emblem of an inner cleansing by the operation of the Holy Spirit as the penitent believer is “baptized into his death”. Why would you choose not be baptized - do you not believe baptism in water is essential to the gospel of Christ?

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 04:40 AM
OK, whenever you get a chance. If not this discussion, then maybe a later. I can tell you that you are fairly unique in your view here so you will have plenty of opportunity in the future to clarify. ;)

God Bless!

I used to believe like most here. I was saved as a Southern Baptist and then was Presbyterian so I have seen both sides and both sides left me trying to explain away Scriptures. Now I don't have to try to explain away Scriptures.

watchinginawe
Jul 14th 2008, 04:40 AM
You really need to read the whole chapter to see why the Holy Spirit came to them before they were baptized.I've read the whole book. I have recited all three references to the event.

Peter said Jesus commanded... I will just recite it again. It is the SAME Gospel, not different. Consider:

Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Now I suppose that you may want to explain this away as a "one time event" of sorts, showing Peter and the Jews that salvation was also for the Gentiles. But if you go there, then we can take the Day of Pentecost likewise and invalidate the message Peter gave there and the witness of God given on the occasion. We can build so many exclusions that we might decide that the whole of the book of Acts should be tossed out for the purpose of doctrine, and indeed many do exactly that. However, I am not one of them. :)

God Bless!

losthorizon
Jul 14th 2008, 04:40 AM
Considering it is God that draws His elect unto Him, it is not a work of our own. God puts the faith in us - we are merely acting on something that is irresistible. ;)


So God has irresistibly forced you to believe and repent? If God irresistibly forces me to be baptized am I adding to the work of Christ on the cross? Does God condemn us for obeying His command to be baptized?

watchinginawe
Jul 14th 2008, 04:44 AM
I used to believe like most here. I was saved as a Southern Baptist and then was Presbyterian so I have seen both sides and both sides left me trying to explain away Scriptures. Now I don't have to try to explain away Scriptures.In all honesty, I believe you hold a compromise position. Your position states that I am saved unwittingly by baptism. :dunno: That is a hard position to support IMO.

God Bless!

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 04:49 AM
Most of the earliest church fathers taught that it was a sign of circumcision. Unfortunately, you're going to get a lot of Platonic thought in their thinking. Some of them will argue that the body is inherently full of sin while the spirit is pure (this is from Plato, not the Bible), thus baptism had to be given to infants.

I tend to think if one will believe in infant baptism, Justin Martyr's view or the description of Polycarp (disciple of John and Polycarp was baptized as a baby, showing this was occurring while the disciples still lived) is the best one - it is most in line with the Presbyterian view of baptism as well. It doesn't view it as salvific, but that some type of grace is imparted onto the child that establishes him as a member of a covenant community. It does not save him, but it does protect him and is significant. If one wasn't baptized as an infant, then one should be baptized when one accepts Christ.

Keep in mind that in the Bible there wasn't an established lineage of Christians, so almost everyone coming to Christ was a first generation Christian that didn't grow up in a Christian home.

That is why I stick to the Ante-Nicene Fathers. Also, while they are not perfect, their agreement with Scripture is strong evidence of doctrinal correctness. Such as with baptism, there are numerous quotes from the ECF's stating that baptism is required for salvation. When you add that to Scripture where Jesus said baptism saves, Peter said baptism saves, and Paul said baptism saves, the evidence is overwhelming.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 14th 2008, 04:49 AM
So God has irresistibly forced you to believe and repent? If God irresistibly forces me to be baptized am I adding to the work of Christ on the cross? Does God condemn us for obeying His command to be baptized?

I didn't say forced, I said drew.

Secondly, I never said baptism adds to the work of Christ. I said belief that baptism saves us adds to the work of Christ.

Third, since Baptism does not save us, God will guide us on when we should be baptized.

Fourth, if someone wants to get baptized to signify their commitment to God, or out of obedience, but recognizes that it doesn't save them, of course there's nothing wrong with it.

Stop jumping to conclusions and pulling things out of context.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 14th 2008, 04:50 AM
That is why I stick to the Ante-Nicene Fathers. Also, while they are not perfect, their agreement with Scripture is strong evidence of doctrinal correctness. Such as with baptism, there are numerous quotes from the ECF's stating that baptism is required for salvation. When you add that to Scripture where Jesus said baptism saves, Peter said baptism saves, and Paul said baptism saves, the evidence is overwhelming.

So you believe that we must baptize babies then?

watchinginawe
Jul 14th 2008, 04:51 AM
The NT teaches that one’s sins are remitted at the point of immersion in water by the blood of Jesus Christ. Baptism is the emblem of an inner cleansing by the operation of the Holy Spirit as the penitent believer is “baptized into his death”. Do you believe baptism in water is essential to the gospel of Christ?I do not believe the NT teaches what you state. I do believe that water baptism is an essential element to the Gospel and is commanded to this day of those who share the Gospel and those who believe. That is different than including baptism in our soteriology. Doing so makes baptism an agent of God in saving man. I believe this is contrary to the whole of scripture.

God Bless!

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 04:52 AM
Considering it is God that draws His elect unto Him, it is not a work of our own. God puts the faith in us - we are merely acting on something that is irresistible. ;)


Butch,

You're misinterpreting some of them, others you are accurate - some believed that water baptism saved us (but, of course, they are wrong).

The thing you need to do is look deeper into Scripture first and compare Scripture's teachings to the ECF. For instance, do you believe Mary was sinless? Most of the ECF do believe she was sinless.

You have to keep in mind that most of the ECF are Greek, not Jewish, believers. This means they came to Christ with Platonic presuppositions about the world. Much of their teachings were, unfortunately, tainted by this teaching. They have a low view of the body. Their teaching on water baptism being salvific then is an extension of this and not of Scripture.

I have look at the scriptures and the ECF's support the SCriptures.

losthorizon
Jul 14th 2008, 04:57 AM
I said belief that baptism saves us adds to the work of Christ.


It is the blood of Christ that saves. If I believe that both belief and baptism precede “shall be saved” am I adding to the work of Christ on the cross? Do you believe both belief and baptism come before one shall be saved…”He that believes and is baptized shall be saved…”

apothanein kerdos
Jul 14th 2008, 04:58 AM
I have look at the scriptures and the ECF's support the SCriptures.

Have you looked at the Greek meaning behind the words?

Did you consider the historical context of the passage (e.g. what else was baptism used for outside of Christianity? What was it used for prior to Christianity?)?

Did you compare it with other Scriptures? Did you seek a way to reconcile Paul's statement that grace saves us and not a physical work of our own?

Did you look to see what circumcision was in the Old Testament?

Did you find a way to explain how the thief on the cross was saved?

Did you find a way to explain how the OT saints were saved (Paul says it wasn't by circumcision or the law, but faith...so if they weren't baptized, how were they saved)?

I'm only asking because you keep saying you've read the Scriptures. I'm hoping it wasn't based on a prima facie reading where you read it, say a quick prayer, and leave it at that. I'm hoping you actually put some study into it - I believe you did in fact. So if you could answer the above questions it'd be extremely helpful.

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 04:59 AM
So you believe that we must baptize babies then?

No I do not hold that postion.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 14th 2008, 05:00 AM
It is the blood of Christ that saves. If I believe that both belief and baptism precede “shall be saved” am I adding to the work of Christ on the cross? Do you believe both belief and baptism come before one shall be saved…”He that believes and is baptized shall be saved…”

I thought I've made it clear - if you say you need baptism to be saved, you are adding to salvation.

I do not believe one has to be baptized in water in order to be saved.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 14th 2008, 05:02 AM
No I do not hold that postion.

But all the early fathers you're quoting believed it. In fact, they actually came to their beliefs and justified their belief in baptismal regeneration because of the infant baptism. So why do you accept their teachings on baptismal regeneration, but not on infant baptism?

This makes me think you haven't read them in their entirety, but only snapshots here and there. The reason I say that is that if one believes in their teachings of baptismal regeneration, one also has to believe in infant baptism. The two can't be separated. ;)

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 05:03 AM
Have you looked at the Greek meaning behind the words?

Did you consider the historical context of the passage (e.g. what else was baptism used for outside of Christianity? What was it used for prior to Christianity?)?

Did you compare it with other Scriptures? Did you seek a way to reconcile Paul's statement that grace saves us and not a physical work of our own?

Did you look to see what circumcision was in the Old Testament?

Did you find a way to explain how the thief on the cross was saved?

Did you find a way to explain how the OT saints were saved (Paul says it wasn't by circumcision or the law, but faith...so if they weren't baptized, how were they saved)?

I'm only asking because you keep saying you've read the Scriptures. I'm hoping it wasn't based on a prima facie reading where you read it, say a quick prayer, and leave it at that. I'm hoping you actually put some study into it - I believe you did in fact. So if you could answer the above questions it'd be extremely helpful.

Yes I have studied it and can answer your questions, however it will have to be tomorrow as it is 1 am and I have to work in the morning.

losthorizon
Jul 14th 2008, 05:10 AM
I do not believe the NT teaches what you state. I do believe that water baptism is an essential element to the Gospel and is commanded to this day of those who share the Gospel and those who believe. That is different than including baptism in our soteriology. Doing so makes baptism an agent of God in saving man. I believe this is contrary to the whole of scripture.

God Bless!
But isn’t the God-designed ordinance of baptism - an essential part of the gospel of Christ - God’s own work that puts the penitent believer “into Christ” where ALL spiritual blessing reside? If not by immersion in water how else is one added to the body of Christ?
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:27 (KJV)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Eph 1:3 (KJV)

losthorizon
Jul 14th 2008, 05:17 AM
I thought I've made it clear - if you say you need baptism to be saved, you are adding to salvation.


Do you think Jesus meant what He said when He said belief and baptism are to take place before one shall be saved?

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 05:22 AM
But all the early fathers you're quoting believed it. In fact, they actually came to their beliefs and justified their belief in baptismal regeneration because of the infant baptism. So why do you accept their teachings on baptismal regeneration, but not on infant baptism?

This makes me think you haven't read them in their entirety, but only snapshots here and there. The reason I say that is that if one believes in their teachings of baptismal regeneration, one also has to believe in infant baptism. The two can't be separated. ;)

I have not read the entirety of the ECF's. However I do not take my doctrine from them. I only seek support from them for my doctrine. I accept their teaching on baptismal regeneration based on Scripture with support from the ECF's. Peter said baptism does now save us. 1 Peter 3:19-21 and Paul said God saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5 Jesus said unless a man is born again, born of water and of the Spirit He cannot see the kingdom of heaven John 3:3-5. Jesus gave us a vivid picture of this at His baptism. He descended into the water and upon coming out the Holy Spirit descended upon Him. He says we are born of water and He was baptized and He says we are born of the Spirit and the Spirit descended on Him. This is the same thing that Paul said in Titus 3:5, God saved us by the washing of regeneration (born of water--baptism) and renewing of the Holy Spirit (born of Spirit). The ECF's belief in regeneration taking place during the baptism is just supporting what I have found in the Scriptures, it is not a basis for my belief, the Scriptures are the basis for my belief.

As for infant baptism, I don't hold to it because I don't see it in Scripture.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 14th 2008, 05:23 AM
But isn’t the God-designed ordinance of baptism - an essential part of the gospel of Christ - God’s own work that puts the penitent believer “into Christ” where ALL spiritual blessing reside? If not by immersion in water how else is one added to the body of Christ?
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:27 (KJV)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Eph 1:3 (KJV)

The problem with English is that it's not descriptive. We think "baptism" and automatically associate it with physical immersion. Paul, however, would have been speaking to a Greek audience and speaking in terms that alluded to physical baptism, but meant more.

Baptizo simply refers to immersion or cleaning something with water by dunking it in the water. We can't be immersed into Christ physically - unless His body is present and has the capability of opening up and letting us wash in His blood (literally). The reason I use this example is because it doesn't have to mean dunked into water every time it's used. In fact, it's general usage simply means "immersed" or "overwhelmed."

When it says we are baptized into Christ, it means we are immersed into His Spirit, not through water baptism. Jesus even alluded to as much when He said He was bringing a Baptism of Spirit that was greater than John's Baptism. In fact, John's Baptism was for the repentance of sin - thus, if being baptized in Christ means we have been remitted of our sins, it is no different than John's baptism.

Likewise, if it is a part of salvation then we can accept the Roman Catholic interpretation and baptize babies - it puts them halfway to salvation. All they have to do at that point is confess at some further date. This, of course, causes a problem if they die in-between the baptism and confession.

Or the bigger problem that my Iraqi friend told me about. When he and two of his friends were escaping Iraq in the 80's, his friend accepted Christ. My friend was already a Christian, but had witnesses to his two friends. Stuck in the middle of the desert, his friend had no way of being baptized. Unfortunately, his friend died of dehydration in the desert (the other friend never accepted Christ, in case you were wondering).

Does this mean that my friend's friend went to hell because there simply wasn't any water available? If it does, then it does mean that the blood of Christ is insufficient for salvation - it becomes Christ's blood + something. It becomes a work. We are saved by the blood of Christ PLUS a work.

If, however, you say, "Well, there are exemptions" then we have a bigger problem - it means that it's not needed in every case. If its not needed in every case, why would it be needed in one case?

apothanein kerdos
Jul 14th 2008, 05:25 AM
Do you think Jesus meant what He said when He said belief and baptism are to take place before one shall be saved?

Nope. I think you're misinterpreting it.

If Jesus actually meant that we needed water baptism in order to be saved, I'd argue that He's not worth worshiping because He wouldn't be offering anything new. Plus, His own sacrifice would be worth nothing. It wouldn't be strong enough to save us.

So either you're misinterpreting what Jesus said, or He's simply not worth worshiping.

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 05:27 AM
Do you think Jesus meant what He said when He said belief and baptism are to take place before one shall be saved?

Lost, they are not going to listen. they keep saying baptism is a work. Even though Paul says it is not.


Titus 3:5 ( NKJV ) 5not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Here Paul says God saved us NOT by our woks but by the washing of regeneration which is baptism. so Paul explicitly says here that baptism is NOT a work

watchinginawe
Jul 14th 2008, 05:33 AM
But isn’t the God-designed ordinance of baptism - an essential part of the gospel of Christ - God’s own work that puts the penitent believer “into Christ” where ALL spiritual blessing reside? If not by immersion in water how else is one added to the body of Christ?

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:27 (KJV)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Eph 1:3 (KJV)
I don't believe that God's grace is by baptism. Indeed, just before Galatians 3:27 we have:

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

So we see that it is by faith that we are justified and by faith that we are the children of God. Faith in Jesus Christ. Not faith in the Gospel, not faith in the Bible, not faith in any kind of understanding about baptism, but rather faith in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Now as for verse 27, as I have already offered, I believe baptism is commanded. Verse 27 is a very good way for us to look at baptism. We understand the significance of our salvation and we are therefore submerged symbolizing our death and we re-emerge putting on Christ and eternal life. Baptism represents our new life by faith in Christ. Old things are passed away, all things are become new.

I believe it is because of grace that we are baptized, not because of baptism that we receive grace.

God Bless!

genesisblu
Jul 14th 2008, 05:37 AM
Lost, they are not going to listen. they keep saying baptism is a work. Even though Paul says it is not.


Titus 3:5 ( NKJV ) 5not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Here Paul says God saved us NOT by our woks but by the washing of regeneration which is baptism. so Paul explicitly says here that baptism is NOT a work

I don't know how Lost is going to agree with you Lost has already said he doesn't believe in baptismal regeneration. How does one receive the Holy Spirit?
Galatians 3:2

2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 05:40 AM
I don't know how Lost is going to agree with you Lost has already said he doesn't believe in baptismal regeneration. How does one receive the Holy Spirit?
Galatians 3:2

2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

What does the hearing of faith entail? I agree with lost, Baptismal regeneration was a tag some labeled me with in one of the posts, I didn't say anything because there are so many definitions of baptismal regeneration. I do not believe that the water has any mystical or magical powers. I have stated that I believe God regenerates a preson during the baptism.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 14th 2008, 05:42 AM
Is there even any Scripture that supports the idea that we need to be baptized by water to be saved?

Also, Butch, thought you were going to bed mate. Looking forward to the answers for my questions. :)

genesisblu
Jul 14th 2008, 05:45 AM
What does the hearing of faith entail? I agree with lost, Baptismal regeneration was a tag some labeled me with in one of the posts, I didn't say anything because there are so many definitions of baptismal regeneration. I do not believe that the water has any mystical or magical powers. I have stated that I believe God regenerates a preson during the baptism.

John 8
23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”
And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”
27 They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.
28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.” 30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 05:48 AM
I don't believe that God's grace is by baptism. Indeed, just before Galatians 3:27 we have:

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

So we see that it is by faith that we are justified and by faith that we are the children of God. Faith in Jesus Christ. Not faith in the Gospel, not faith in the Bible, not faith in any kind of understanding about baptism, but rather faith in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Now as for verse 27, as I have already offered, I believe baptism is commanded. Verse 27 is a very good way for us to look at baptism. We understand the significance of our salvation and we are therefore submerged symbolizing our death and we re-emerge putting on Christ and eternal life. Baptism represents our new life by faith in Christ. Old things are passed away, all things are become new.

I believe it is because of grace that we are baptized, not because of baptism that we receive grace.

God Bless!

Yea, notice verse 27, it is past tense, notice verse 26, is present tense. Verse 27 is part of verse 26 as evidenced by the tenses.

genesisblu
Jul 14th 2008, 05:54 AM
What does the hearing of faith entail? I agree with lost, Baptismal regeneration was a tag some labeled me with in one of the posts, I didn't say anything because there are so many definitions of baptismal regeneration. I do not believe that the water has any mystical or magical powers. I have stated that I believe God regenerates a preson during the baptism.

That is baptismal regeneration, when one believes that baptism is required to be saved by receiving the Holy Spirit through water baptism.

The theory of baptismal regeneration teaches that baptism is an effectual sign: that it causes that which it signifies.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Baptismal regeneration holds that salvation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation) is dependent upon the act of baptism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism); in other words, baptismal regenerationists believe that one must be baptized in order to be saved (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save).

genesisblu
Jul 14th 2008, 06:30 AM
Eph 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

That promise is the guarantee. It is a gift, not something you earn by doing something. Do you see having believed and been baptized or do you just see having believed?

Yes, I am sure. The gospel is Jesus. His death for our sins, His burial, His resurrection, our eternal life through our belief in Him (1 John 5:13). This is the testimony of God the Father, about His Son (1 John 5:11). By His grace He was sent to be offered as salvation for us. Is this not good enough news for you? He was baptized to be revealed to Israel as the Savior, to be our High Priest, the veil tore allowing everybody who believes to enter, his side was opened and water and blood came forth (John 19:34). Is that not enough for salvation? The two physical elements required to completely wash, cleanse, purify, atone for sins. He came by water and blood (1 john 5:6), during His baptism on the cross (Luke 12:50), and there are three who witness on earth water, blood and the Spirit (1 John 5:8). Was that not enough of a witness that all was accomplished?

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!
1 John 5:6 This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

genesisblu
Jul 14th 2008, 06:38 AM
I have stated that I believe God regenerates a preson during the baptism.

Who regenerates a person?

Tit 3:5 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+3:5&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

And what baptism provides that Holy Spirit? John's water baptism?

Lu 3:16 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+3:16&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Mt 3:11 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+3:11&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Mr 1:8 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=mr+1:8&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, "John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

Where do you see John saying anyone will receive the Holy Spirit in water baptism?

Brother Mark
Jul 14th 2008, 11:31 AM
Your correct salvation has always been by faith, by trusting God however that does not mean that we do nothing. You say Abraham was not saved by works, let me ask you this. Suppose Abraham had said no When the Lord told Him to leave His home and go to hte land that the Lord sent Him. Would God have counted it as righteousness? Would Abraham have received the promises? Would He be the father of all who believe through faith? Suppose Abraham had said no when God told Him to offer Issac on the altar. Who God count it as righteousness? would Abraham be the Father of all who believe through faith? Let's see what God says,


Genesis 22:15-18 ( NKJV ) 15Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— 17blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

So we see that the promises that were made to Abraham, came to him because he OBEYED God. Not just because He believed. You notice that he was counted righteous because he believed, but he did not get the guarantee until he acted. Likewise we get the promise when we believe, but we don't get the guarantee until we act.

If one has living/saving faith, he will have works. That's the point of James. The works don't save him like faith did. That's the point of Galatians and Ephesians. Because one has saving faith, he will get baptized. Many blessings come from obedience. But as Ephesians states, it is not our obedience that saves us nor is it baptism that saves us.

MidnightsPaleGlow
Jul 14th 2008, 03:30 PM
Man, I really opened a can of worms here I see. I personally think I made a strong rebuttal of what I believe in my heart to be a false teaching. I fell into that error about a month after I first put my faith in Christ, but then through study, I found out that I was saved before baptism, and repented of baptismal regeneration. The way I see it now is that God saved me by his grace through the blood of his son, and I was baptized to demonstrate obedience, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS. I view my baptism as a demonstration of a saving faith that produced works, and in my desire to be baptized, I had fallen into the baptismal regeneration error, but later repented of it when I found it to be untrue.

faithfulfriend
Jul 14th 2008, 03:56 PM
Man, I really opened a can of worms here I see. I personally think I made a strong rebuttal of what I believe in my heart to be a false teaching. I fell into that error about a month after I first put my faith in Christ, but then through study, I found out that I was saved before baptism, and repented of baptismal regeneration. The way I see it now is that God saved me by his grace through the blood of his son, and I was baptized to demonstrate obedience, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS. I view my baptism as a demonstration of a saving faith that produced works, and in my desire to be baptized, I had fallen into the baptismal regeneration error, but later repented of it when I found it to be untrue.

I. Water Baptism
1. The form or mode.
a. Baptize and baptism are not translations. The Greek words baptizo and baptizein are anglicized. The Greek words mean to dip, plunge, immerse as any Greek lexicon will indicate. They never mean sprinkling or pouring.
b. The Greek does not indicate baptism is “with” water, but it is “in” or “into” water. (See Greek en and eis). (Matt. 3:11 and Mark 1:9). Jesus came up “out of the water” Matt. 3:16, and both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and came up out of it. (Acts 8:38-39).
c. Historians are generally agreed that the early church immersed. This is substantiated by excavations of ancient churches in which baptisteries have been found.

2. It is for believers only.
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Ac 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Ac 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Ro 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

This last passage could not apply to infant baptism or to baptism of the unregenerate, nor to anything other than immersion. Sprinkling is no symbol of a burial.

3. Baptism does not cleanse
1Pe 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

The washing away of sins in Acts 22:16 is purely ceremonial.

4. Its purpose is to witness that one is dead to sin, but alive unto God.

ariel_jesus237
Jul 14th 2008, 04:10 PM
Hello ariel_jesus. Have you sought the Lord's will regarding baptism? What do you think the Lord's will is on the matter? You know Jesus Himself submitted to John's baptism. Read up and see what God the Father had to say when this happened.

God Bless!

ps: Yes, I believe you are saved by placing your trust for salvation in Jesus Christ.
Hey, I know it is the Lord's will that I be baptized both in water and in Holy Spirit so I can be born again in water and spirit, but I know that I am not weak or unsecure because I have yet to do this. As long as I have God's spirit and presence within me and guiding me, I am secure and as long as I follow His will I know I will have the eternal life. I am aware that Jesus himself submitted to John's baptism and therefore there is big importance in that work but as soon as God provides the opportunity I'll follow through. Amen

MidnightsPaleGlow
Jul 14th 2008, 04:25 PM
I. Water Baptism
1. The form or mode.
a. Baptize and baptism are not translations. The Greek words baptizo and baptizein are anglicized. The Greek words mean to dip, plunge, immerse as any Greek lexicon will indicate. They never mean sprinkling or pouring.
b. The Greek does not indicate baptism is “with” water, but it is “in” or “into” water. (See Greek en and eis). (Matt. 3:11 and Mark 1:9). Jesus came up “out of the water” Matt. 3:16, and both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and came up out of it. (Acts 8:38-39).
c. Historians are generally agreed that the early church immersed. This is substantiated by excavations of ancient churches in which baptisteries have been found.

2. It is for believers only.
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ac 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Ac 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Ac 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Ro 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

This last passage could not apply to infant baptism or to baptism of the unregenerate, nor to anything other than immersion. Sprinkling is no symbol of a burial.

3. Baptism does not cleanse
1Pe 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

The washing away of sins in Acts 22:16 is purely ceremonial.

4. Its purpose is to witness that one is dead to sin, but alive unto God.

Don't get me wrong, I completely oppose infant baptism on the grounds that it arose out of the baptismal regeneration doctrine and on the grounds that it is for believers only, and is by full body immersion only using the Trinitarian formula. The point I'm trying to stress is that baptism is something we do AFTER we've been saved to demonstrate obedience, it is NOT a part of salvation, it comes after salvation.

faithfulfriend
Jul 14th 2008, 04:36 PM
Don't get me wrong, I completely oppose infant baptism on the grounds that it arose out of the baptismal regeneration doctrine and on the grounds that it is for believers only, and is by full body immersion only using the Trinitarian formula. The point I'm trying to stress is that baptism is something we do AFTER we've been saved to demonstrate obedience, it is NOT a part of salvation, it comes after salvation.

That is absolutely correct. That is what the Word of God teaches. The Blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin (I John 1:7...I think.....:D)

We agree.

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 14th 2008, 04:40 PM
Who regenerates a person?

Tit 3:5 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=tit+3:5&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

And what baptism provides that Holy Spirit? John's water baptism?

Lu 3:16 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+3:16&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Mt 3:11 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+3:11&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Mr 1:8 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=mr+1:8&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, "John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

Where do you see John saying anyone will receive the Holy Spirit in water baptism?

Exactly! We do see people recieving the Holy Spirit through the laying on of the hands don't we! I think God can give the Holy Spirit to anyone at anytime he wants and the water baptism maybe the time or NOT!

But I honestly beleive it is easier to recieve the Holy spirit through the laying on of the hands from someone already filled with the spirit. The way I see it, it's like an introduction... planted... watered... but God givith the increase.

Michael

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 10:44 PM
That is absolutely correct. That is what the Word of God teaches. The Blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin (I John 1:7...I think.....:D)

We agree.
\How do we get into Jesus to have His blood cleanse us from all sin?

genesisblu
Jul 14th 2008, 11:01 PM
\How do we get into Jesus to have His blood cleanse us from all sin?

We don't "get" into Jesus, He comes into us. His Holy Spirit enters us upon belief, true trusting, through our answer of a good conscience towards God and spiritually cleans us. Not through water baptism, but through our answer to Him.

Romans 3:25 Whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Heb 9:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=heb+9:14&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Hebrews 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 11:01 PM
I find this rather interesting. I have boat loads of people telling me, Baptism is an act of obedience, Baptism is something we should do, Baptism doesn't save, Baptism doesn't this and Baptism doesn't that.

Would any of you Baptism doesn't guys like to post ONE Scripture to support Baptism doesn't. I've had plenty of opinion, how about some scripture.

Here's one for you faith only guys. The only verse that speaks of faith only.


James 2:24 ( KJV ) 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

If a man is not justified He cannot be saved.

genesisblu
Jul 14th 2008, 11:05 PM
I find this rather interesting. I have boat loads of people telling me, Baptism is an act of obedience, Baptism is something we should do, Baptism doesn't save, Baptism doesn't this and Baptism doesn't that.

Would any of you Baptism doesn't guys like to post ONE Scripture to support Baptism doesn't. I've had plenty of opinion, how about some scripture.

Here's one for you faith only guys. The only verse that speaks of faith only.


James 2:24 ( KJV ) 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

If a man is not justified He cannot be saved.

He is saved.
1 Cor 3:15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. Works are judged for our rewards (crowns, status etc) in heaven not our entrance to it.

Brother Mark
Jul 14th 2008, 11:10 PM
Would any of you Baptism doesn't guys like to post ONE Scripture to support Baptism doesn't. I've had plenty of opinion, how about some scripture

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
NASB

Rom 3:27-30
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
NASB

Rom 4:5
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,
NASB

Rom 4:16
16 For this reason it is by faith, that it might be in accordance with grace, in order that the promise may be certain to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
NASB

And here is the key to understanding what James was teaching...

Rom 4:19-21
20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief, but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what He had promised, He was able also to perform.
NASB

Being fully assured (i.e. full of faith) we too are able to perform works of righteousness.

Rom 9:32
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
NASB

There's plenty more but this is enough for now.

losthorizon
Jul 14th 2008, 11:18 PM
I don't believe that God's grace is by baptism.

Aren’t you just building up a straw man to easily knock down? Please tell me who is saying that grace is by the ordinance of baptism? The notion that baptism is a ‘sacrament’ which has some mystical-mythical power to remit sin outside of faith and repentance is just that a non-biblical notion that contradicts the clear teaching of the NT.

Baptism is an act of obedience just as belief and repentance are acts of obedience – baptism is commanded by God and it is to be obeyed by man. It has nothing to do with "earning salvation" and everything to do with obeying God. We are not condemned for obeying from the heart His commandments including His command to be immersed in water for the remission of sins. Jesus states very clearly – "he that believes and is baptized shall be saved”. Baptism like belief precedes “shall be saved”. Baptism is simply the answer of a good conscience toward God (1 Pet 3:31).

Questions for you: (1) Did Jesus command baptism in water? (2) Did Jesus clearly state that baptism (like belief) precedes “shall be saved”? (3) Was Jesus honest with us when He said -“If ye love me, ye will keep My commandments” (John 14:15? (4) Am I condemned for adding to the work of Christ when I obey from the heart the gospel of Christ which includes the command to be immersed in water? (5) Does Jesus teach that baptism is “the sign and seal of the renewing influences of his Spirit” (Barnes), therefore is baptism an essential element in the plan of God to redeem man?

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 11:20 PM
He is saved.
1 Cor 3:15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. Works are judged for our rewards (crowns, status etc) in heaven not our entrance to it.

So the unrighteous are saved? That's not the issue however. I notiice you did not supply any Scripture.

Butch5
Jul 14th 2008, 11:32 PM
Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
NASB

Rom 3:27-30
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
NASB

Rom 4:5
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,
NASB

Rom 4:16
16 For this reason it is by faith, that it might be in accordance with grace, in order that the promise may be certain to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
NASB

And here is the key to understanding what James was teaching...

Rom 4:19-21
20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief, but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what He had promised, He was able also to perform.
NASB

Being fully assured (i.e. full of faith) we too are able to perform works of righteousness.

Rom 9:32
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
NASB

There's plenty more but this is enough for now.

I asked for Scripture that shows baptism doesn't. You can post your faith verses all day long, they don't deny baptism. Also, Check out what Paul was talking about. He was dealing with the Judaizers, who were trying to make the gentiles get circumcised. So He said By the "works of the law " no flesh shall be justified. You see that is how you reconcile the Scriptures. Paul says you are not justified by works, James says you are justified by works. Most people just ignore James. However when you look at what they are talking about there is no problem between them. James is talking about works of righteousness and Paul is talking about the works of the law. So when Paul says not of works in Ephesians 2:8 He means you are not saved by the works of the law, He doesnt mean you do nothing in your salvation. As James, states a man is justified by works (of righteousness) and not by faith only.

watchinginawe
Jul 14th 2008, 11:59 PM
Aren’t you just building up a straw man to easily knock down? Please tell me who is saying that grace is by the ordinance of baptism? The notion that baptism is a ‘sacrament’ which has some mystical-mythical power to remit sin outside of faith and repentance is just that a non-biblical notion that contradicts the clear teaching of the NT. So are sins remitted by repentance and faith alone? Or would you add to that faith in baptism as well?
Baptism is an act of obedience just as belief and repentance are acts of obedience – baptism is commanded by God and it is to be obeyed by man. It has nothing to do with "earning salvation" and everything to do with obeying God.:hmm: Let me state what makes me post in these threads. There are some who hold to the belief that "obedience" in baptism means more than submitting to baptism. In fact, they "judge" baptismal experiences and "validate" them "scripturally". So, for example, I will take myself.

I believed. I believed my sins were remitted and that I was saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

I was baptized in obedience.

Now come the "judges" of my testimony. Since my testimony omits the understanding of the purpose of baptism, then my baptism was in vain. It isn't "valid" and I am yet in my sins.

Now that isn't some wierdo way out there scenario losthorizon. I believe it more accurately represents the sentiments of the Churches of Christ than what you seem to propose. And moreso, if baptism "remitted our sins", then I would entirely endorse the "judging" of my baptism. However, that is what leads me to say: I don't believe that God's grace is by baptism. No straw man there. This is a soteriological arguement that I believe is worthy of understanding, especially by those who promote baptism for "the remission of sins".

Also, I believe that is EXACTLY what this thread is about. Right? :yes:

God Bless!

Brother Mark
Jul 15th 2008, 12:04 AM
I asked for Scripture that shows baptism doesn't. You can post your faith verses all day long, they don't deny baptism.

The verses I quoted said faith apart from works.


Ephesians 2:8 He means you are not saved by the works of the law, He doesnt mean you do nothing in your salvation. As James, states a man is justified by works (of righteousness) and not by faith only.

Ephesians didn't say works of the law. It says "good works".

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
NASB

The point of the passage is that the works we are ordained to walk in (i.e. baptism) have nothing to do with our salvation.

Romans explains even further what James is getting at.

And here is the key to understanding what James was teaching...

Rom 4:19-21
20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief, but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what He had promised, He was able also to perform.
NASB

Or as James said "I will show you my faith by my works". Living faith will have works and is thus revealed as saving faith. Dead faith won't have works and will be like the faith the demons have and tremble. We see that kind of belief in John 2. It doesn't save. Never has and never will.

genesisblu
Jul 15th 2008, 12:18 AM
So the unrighteous are saved? That's not the issue however. I notice you did not supply any Scripture.

Unrighteous? I didn't write the scripture I just quoted it.

Did not supply scripture? What do you call that? Unless you are referring to your request for scripture that says baptism does not save? No, you won't get any scripture that says word for word "water baptism does not save" nor is there scripture that says word for word "water baptism saves".

Neither are there.

The faith that is being discussed here is the difference between ascentia faith and fiducia faith. Ascentia faith is dead without works because it proves it is not fiducia faith. So obviously no that faith alone will not save you.

As for being justified:

Romans 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Ro 4:2 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+4:2&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.Ro 5:1 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+5:1&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Ro 5:9 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+5:9&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Butch5
Jul 15th 2008, 12:26 AM
Brother Mark---The verses I quoted said faith apart from works.

I didn't ask for verses dealing with faith and works, I asked for verses saying baptism doesn't



Brother Mark---Ephesians didn't say works of the law. It says "good works".

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
NASB


How does one understand what Paul is saying, if one does not understand the issue Paul was addressing?
The good works are what we should walk in. Verse 9 is not speaking of good works. The works in verse 9 are the works of the law.


Brother Mark---The point of the passage is that the works we are ordained to walk in (i.e. baptism) have nothing to do with our salvation.

Please, go on and explain that.


Brother Mark---Romans explains even further what James is getting at.


And here is the key to understanding what James was teaching...

Rom 4:19-21
20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief, but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what He had promised, He was able also to perform.
NASB

Or as James said "I will show you my faith by my works". Living faith will have works and is thus revealed as saving faith. Dead faith won't have works and will be like the faith the demons have and tremble. We see that kind of belief in John 2. It doesn't save. Never has and never will.

So Paul is telling us what James is talking about?

Butch5
Jul 15th 2008, 12:37 AM
Unrighteous? I didn't write the scripture I just quoted it.

Did not supply scripture? What do you call that? Unless you are referring to your request for scripture that says baptism does not save? No, you won't get any scripture that says word for word "water baptism does not save" nor is there scripture that says word for word "water baptism saves".

Neither are there.


As for being justified:

Romans 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Ro 4:2 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+4:2&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.Ro 5:1 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+5:1&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Ro 5:9 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+5:9&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I didn't ask for a word for word rendering, where is any indication. I notice you did quote a verse that says baptism saves, Titus 3:5.


genesisbluThe faith that is being discussed here is the difference between ascentia faith and fiducia faith. Ascentia faith is dead without works because it proves it is not fiducia faith. So obviously no that faith alone will not save you.

Dance on, James was discussing Abrahms Faith.

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 15th 2008, 12:42 AM
Aren’t you just building up a straw man to easily knock down? Please tell me who is saying that grace is by the ordinance of baptism? The notion that baptism is a ‘sacrament’ which has some mystical-mythical power to remit sin outside of faith and repentance is just that a non-biblical notion that contradicts the clear teaching of the NT.

Baptism is an act of obedience just as belief and repentance are acts of obedience – baptism is commanded by God and it is to be obeyed by man. It has nothing to do with "earning salvation" and everything to do with obeying God. We are not condemned for obeying from the heart His commandments including His command to be immersed in water for the remission of sins. Jesus states very clearly – "he that believes and is baptized shall be saved”. Baptism like belief precedes “shall be saved”. Baptism is simply the answer of a good conscience toward God (1 Pet 3:31).

To be Baptized with the Holy Spirit is to be born of Spirit. There is abosolutly no command to be baptized in water by Jesus. If you think there is show us the scripture with the command and the water! As usual you have a different Bible than everyone else as mine also has no 1 Peter 3:31?

Questions for you:
(1) Did Jesus command baptism in water?
NO, there is absolutely no command to be baptized in WATER by Jesus. If you think there is show us the scripture with the command and the water!

(2) Did Jesus clearly state that baptism (like belief) precedes “shall be saved”?
Yes, but that is the Holy Spirit baptism that he performs not man. It reads "he that believes and is baptized shall be saved” why would we think this is John's baptism as we know that Christ said this and he baptizes with the Holy Spirit. To me it would mean that if you believe and he baptizes you you shall be saved.

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

(3) Was Jesus honest with us when He said -“If ye love me, ye will keep My commandments” (John 14:15?
These are his two commandments and you shouldn't be adding to them!

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

(4) Am I condemned for adding to the work of Christ when I obey from the heart the gospel of Christ which includes the command to be immersed in water?
There is absolutely no command to be baptized in WATER by Jesus!
But since you asked: Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

(5) Does Jesus teach that baptism is “the sign and seal of the renewing influences of his Spirit” (Barnes), therefore is baptism an essential element in the plan of God to redeem man?

Actually that is Barnes that teaches that. However those that are sealed have the Holy Spirit. John's baptism in water is not that seal.

Now it is really pointless to argue this with you if you cannot do without using someone else's commentary to backup your arguments and it only shows that you are taught by man and not God. The person you quote is not here to defend the statements and you can't seem to do it, so what's the point?

Consider this for a moment:

John 3:25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.

John 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

John 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.


Your arguments are like this: When you started that fire did you use matches or gasoline? Of course you never started the fire in the first place so should you still answer the question?

Michael

genesisblu
Jul 15th 2008, 12:56 AM
I notice you did quote a verse that says baptism saves, Titus 3:5.

Yes, baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water. One really needs to learn to differentiate between the baptisms being spoken of in the bible. It means "to immerse" or "to overwhelm" when the word water is present you can safely assume "water baptism" when water is not present you can not safely assume "water baptism".

genesisblu
Jul 15th 2008, 01:06 AM
I didn't ask for a word for word rendering, where is any indication.

You have been given many. You chose not to accept. That is your choice.

Whose baptism did John (who baptized with water) tell you look to? His or the baptism of the Holy Spirit given by Jesus?

Lu 3:16 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+3:16&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. (John baptizes with water, second to Jesus' baptizing with the Holy Spirit)
Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, "John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' (outside and in fact before water baptism)

One verse of each should be enough yes?, since you claim that is all it takes to be clear examples.

Note: If you continue to refuse to accept that it is the Holy Spirit that is given as the promised seal of ones eternal life and salvation then you will NEVER see anything other than what you see now.

Butch5
Jul 15th 2008, 01:07 AM
Yes, baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water. One really needs to learn to differentiate between the baptisms being spoken of in the bible. It means "to immerse" or "to overwhelm" when the word water is present you can safely assume "water baptism" when water is not present you can not safely assume "water baptism".

Well, the washing of regeneration is the water Baptism. Oh wait it doesn't say water. You know what, renewing of the Holy Spirit doesn't say baptism, so I guess it isn't baptism of the Spirit.

losthorizon
Jul 15th 2008, 01:40 AM
So are sins remitted by repentance and faith alone? Or would you add to that faith in baptism as well


Sins are remitted by the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ and it is by faith that we submit to the grace that God provides through Christ Jesus. Baptism is a small part of what God has given us and it is an emblem of that inner cleansing wrought by the "operation of God" in the hearts of all believers as they are immersed into Christ - the “circumcision made without hands” when the believer is “united with Christ” as he/she is immersed in water - as we are buried with him into His death. Do you consider it *essential* for all believers to be circumcised “spiritually” - ie - "circumcised with the circumcision made without hands"? Would you go as far as to agree with me that baptism is *essential* to the gospel of Christ? Would it also be logical to suppose that whatever God commands becomes *essential* at the point when He makes it a command?
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col 2:11-12 (KJV)Does not logic tell us that one must first be "buried" (die to sin) before that same one can rise "with [Jesus] through the faith of the operation of God"? What "burial" do you think the Holy Spirit is referring to - is it not the burial in water that Christ calls us all (all of every nation until He comes) to submit to - are we not "planted together in the likeness of his death" in baptism so that we migh rise up out of the baptismal water "in the likeness of his resurrection" (Romans 6:3-5) - cleansed by the very blood of Christ through the working (operation) of the Holy Spirit? Why do some on this thread not understand the simple function of baptism in water - God makes it easy to understand - death, burial, resurrection - death to sin, burial in water, rise up out of the water to walk in newness of life...(Rom 6:3-5)
"Baptism is the grave of the old man, and the birth of the new. As he sinks beneath the baptismal waters, the believer buries there all his corrupt affections and past sins; as he emerges thence, he rises regenerate, quickened to new hopes and new life." ~ J. B. Lightfoot
Let me state what makes me post in these threads. There are some who hold to the belief that "obedience" in baptism means more than submitting to baptism. In fact, they "judge" baptismal experiences and "validate" them "scripturally". So, for example, I will take myself.

I believed. I believed my sins were remitted and that I was saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

I was baptized in obedience.

Now come the "judges" of my testimony. Since my testimony omits the understanding of the purpose of baptism, then my baptism was in vain. It isn't "valid" and I am yet in my sins.

Now that isn't some wierdo way out there scenario losthorizon. I believe it more accurately represents the sentiments of the Churches of Christ than what you seem to propose. And moreso, if baptism "remitted our sins", then I would entirely endorse the "judging" of my baptism. However, that is what leads me to say: I don't believe that God's grace is by baptism. No straw man there. This is a soteriological arguement that I believe is worthy of understanding, especially by those who promote baptism for "the remission of sins".
And let me state what makes me post in these threads. I am not pushing any “denomination doctrine” here – I don’t have an agenda. I have never started a thread on baptism or any other doctrine – in fact, I have never started a thread period since I have been on this board. I couldn’t care less what the CoC, RCC, OP, Baptists, CIA, etc, etc teaches regarding baptism. My purpose for posting is to present what I understand to be God’s truth as revealed to man in Holy Writ and I do understand the excesses many of the above named organizations (and others) go to in defense of their pet dogmas.

What I have presented is what I believe was taught to the apostolic church (our pattern) as presented in the NT. If I am in error I simply ask that you point it out to me – no one (IMO) knows everything there is to know concerning God’s revelation but many completely misunderstand the ordinance of baptism as evidenced on this thread and I find it a shame that an ordinance designed by God to do what it does suffers so much abuse by the ignorant and for no reason other than to protect their own pet dogmas. The excesses exist on both sides of this issue my friend.:)

watchinginawe
Jul 15th 2008, 01:52 AM
lh, I have posted already in the thread what I believe about baptism in regards to the Gospel. But the name of this thread is "Baptismal Regeneration Refuted". Of course we should be baptized. In my belief, water baptism follows grace rather than conferring grace. I am fine with the word "emblem". It completely embodies my viewpoint of baptism. I am fine with the word "obedience". It completely embodies my viewpoint of baptism. I am fine with the word "Gospel". it completely embodies my viewpoint of baptism.

Where I hit a stump is where baptism is taught as God's process for conferring grace. This teaching rightly states that if this is the case, then the candidate for baptism would need to understand the purpose of baptism for it to be efficacious. However, since I believe it is by faith in Jesus Christ alone, then submitting to this belief in baptism would subvert my faith in Christ. I can not do that and I believe it is therefore a false teaching, just as the original poster declares.

So, you have made your point and I have made mine. And really, we aren't very far apart.

God Bless!

genesisblu
Jul 15th 2008, 01:57 AM
Well, the washing of regeneration is the water Baptism. Oh wait it doesn't say water. You know what, renewing of the Holy Spirit doesn't say baptism, so I guess it isn't baptism of the Spirit.

It is the description of what the Holy Spirit does. The process of being 'Born again".
Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior

Poured out how?
Lu 3:16 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+3:16&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Butch5
Jul 15th 2008, 02:12 AM
You have been given many. You chose not to accept. That is your choice.

Whose baptism did John (who baptized with water) tell you look to? His or the baptism of the Holy Spirit given by Jesus?

Lu 3:16 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+3:16&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. (John baptizes with water, second to Jesus' baptizing with the Holy Spirit)
Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, "John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' (outside and in fact before water baptism)

One verse of each should be enough yes?, since you claim that is all it takes to be clear examples.

Note: If you continue to refuse to accept that it is the Holy Spirit that is given as the promised seal of ones eternal life and salvation then you will NEVER see anything other than what you see now.

I don't think you pay attention to what I say. Where did I say 1 Scripture was sufficient? I asked just 1 Scripture show baptism doesn't do all of the things you guys claim.

Luke 3:16, What are you trying to show? Everyone knows Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit. When does one receive the Holy Spirit?

Acts 11:15 If you read this you will see why the Holy Spirit came before water baptism. It was essentially a Pentecost for the Gentiles. Before Peter would even go to Cornelius' house God had to give Him a vision. Once there Peter did not even realized that God had sent Him to preach the gospel to Cornelius (a Gentile).


Acts 10:28-29 ( KJV ) 28And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. 29Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?

Peter had no idea. After Cornelius told Peter of the Angle, Peter understands and begins to preach the gospel. As He's doing so, God bestows the Holy Spirit on the Gentiles and the Bible says the the Jews with Peter were astounded. Why? Because the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles. I think this makes it clear why the Holy Spirit was given before water baptism. It was to show that God was giving salvation to the Gentiles

What you refuse to recognise is that the Spirit comes after water baptism. Just because God chose to bestow the Holy Spirit before water baptism two times does not dismiss the thousands that were done in the normal way.

Where did I refuse to accept that the Holy Spirit is the seal?

Butch5
Jul 15th 2008, 02:15 AM
It is the description of what the Holy Spirit does. The process of being 'Born again".
Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior

Poured out how?
Lu 3:16 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+3:16&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Which part represents, born of water?

How exactly is the Spirit baptism accomplished? In what way is it bestowed?

losthorizon
Jul 15th 2008, 02:30 AM
lh, I have posted already in the thread what I believe about baptism in regards to the Gospel. But the name of this thread is "Baptismal Regeneration Refuted". Of course we should be baptized. In my belief, water baptism follows grace rather than conferring grace. I am fine with the word "emblem". It completely embodies my viewpoint of baptism. I am fine with the word "obedience". It completely embodies my viewpoint of baptism. I am fine with the word "Gospel". it completely embodies my viewpoint of baptism.

Where I hit a stump is where baptism is taught as God's process for conferring grace. This teaching rightly states that if this is the case, then the candidate for baptism would need to understand the purpose of baptism for it to be efficacious. However, since I believe it is by faith in Jesus Christ alone, then submitting to this belief in baptism would subvert my faith in Christ. I can not do that and I believe it is therefore a false teaching, just as the original poster declares.

So, you have made your point and I have made mine. And really, we aren't very far apart.

God Bless!
What part of the "1689 Baptist Confession" would you not agree with - ie -do any parts of the statement presented below constitute "Baptismal Regeneration" under your definition of that term? Could you please define what you mean by the term Baptismal Regeneration (it means different things to different people)? Thanks.
Of Baptism

1. Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, to be unto the party baptized, a sign of his fellowship with him, in his death and resurrection; of his being engrafted into him; of remission of sins; and of giving up into God, through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life.
( Romans 6:3-5; Colossians 2;12; Galatians 3:27; Mark 1:4; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:4 )

2. Those who do actually profess repentance towards God, faith in, and obedience to, our Lord Jesus Christ, are the only proper subjects of this ordinance.
( Mark 16:16; Acts 8:36, 37; Acts 2:41; Acts 8:12; Acts 18:8 )

3. The outward element to be used in this ordinance is water, wherein the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
( Matthew 28:19, 20; Acts 8:38 )

4. Immersion, or dipping of the person in water, is necessary to the due administration of this ordinance. ( Matthew 3:16; John 3:23 )

watchinginawe
Jul 15th 2008, 02:48 AM
What part of the "1689 Baptist Confession" would you not agree with - ie -do any parts of the statement presented below constitute "Baptismal Regeneration" under your definition of that term? Could you please define what you mean by the term Baptismal Regeneration (it means different things to different people)? Thanks.OK, I'll answer this. But before I do, I will say again that I believe "Baptismal Regeneration" refers to a doctrine that holds baptism as being the process by which God remits the sins of the believer. I do not believe in "Baptismal Regeneration".
Of Baptism

1. Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, to be unto the party baptized, a sign of his fellowship with him, in his death and resurrection; of his being engrafted into him; of remission of sins; and of giving up into God, through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life.
( Romans 6:3-5; Colossians 2;12; Galatians 3:27; Mark 1:4; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:4 )


I have bolded the part that makes this something I agree with. A sign...,or acknowledgment, or confession of one's faith.
2. Those who do actually profess repentance towards God, faith in, and obedience to, our Lord Jesus Christ, are the only proper subjects of this ordinance.
( Mark 16:16; Acts 8:36, 37; Acts 2:41; Acts 8:12; Acts 18:8 ) I absolutely agree. This would be a corollary to #1.
3. The outward element to be used in this ordinance is water, wherein the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
( Matthew 28:19, 20; Acts 8:38 ) I agree with this. However, I don't find fault with those who want to baptize in the name of the Lord or Jesus Christ either. But I personally believe Jesus prescribes Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

4. Immersion, or dipping of the person in water, is necessary to the due administration of this ordinance. ( Matthew 3:16; John 3:23 )I agree.
God Bless!

losthorizon
Jul 15th 2008, 03:10 AM
There is abosolutly no command to be baptized in water by Jesus.

LOL - well Michael if the baptism commanded by Christ in Matthew 28 is not immersion in water then please tell me what is it? Do you really suppose all biblical scholars have been wrong for over 2000 years. ;)
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:18-20
Baptism, Christian

An ordinance immediately instituted by Christ (Mat_28:19, Mat_28:20), and designed to be observed in the church, like that of the Supper, “till he come.” The words “baptize” and “baptism” are simply Greek words transferred into English. It means to dip a thing into an element or liquid. In the LXX, the Greek version of the Old Testament, it is used of the ablutions and baptisms required by the Mosaic law. These were effected by immersion, and the same word, “washings” (Heb_9:10, Heb_9:13, Heb_9:19, Heb_9:21) or “baptisms,” designates them all. Moreover, all of the instances of baptism recorded in the Acts of the Apostles (Act_2:38-41; Act_8:26-39; Act_9:17, Act_9:18; Act_22:12-16; Act_10:44-48; Act_16:32-34) suggests the idea that it was by dipping the person baptized, i.e. by immersion.

Baptism and the Lord's Supper are the two symbolical ordinances of the New Testament. The Supper represents the work of Christ, and Baptism the work of the Spirit. As in the Supper a small amount of bread and wine used in this ordinance exhibits in symbol the great work of Christ, so in Baptism the work of the Holy Spirit is fully seen in the water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. ~ Easton Dictionary

losthorizon
Jul 15th 2008, 03:35 AM
OK, I'll answer this. But before I do, I will say again that I believe "Baptismal Regeneration" refers to a doctrine that holds baptism as being the process by which God remits the sins of the believer. I do not believe in "Baptismal Regeneration".

Is it possible that the “circumcision made without hands” – ie – spiritual circumcision (by the “operation of God”) where regeneration truly takes place could take place at the same time the penitent believer is “buried with him in baptism...into His death" – ie –immersed in water? Did Christ not shed His blood in His death on the cross? Would it make sense that as one goes under the baptismal water calling on the name of the Lord (buried) the Holy Spirit performs the circumcision made without hands at that point in time and when the baptized believer comes up out of the water having his sins now washed away by the blood of Christ he is made free to “walk in newness of life”?
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord . Acts 22:16 (KJV)

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col 2:11-12 (KJV)

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. Romans 6:3-7 (KJV)Is it possible that one’s sins are “washed away” at the point of baptism in water (into his death) by the blood of Christ? If I believed this to be true am I subscribing to your version of baptismal regeneration?

watchinginawe
Jul 15th 2008, 03:54 AM
Is it possible that one’s sins are “washed away” at the point of baptism in water by the blood of Christ? If I believed this to be true am I subscribing to your version of baptismal regeneration?Yes, probably (in answer to the last question). But it is a close call. Generally, the doctrine is not about what one holds personally, but rather what proponents believe scripture states as how one is saved by grace. So really, to subscribe to my version of baptismal regeneration, you would be telling ME what should be believed for baptism to be efficacious. You would believe that you would be doing me a great favor in showing me that I am yet still in my sins because I did not have the proper understanding of baptism (for the remission of sins).

It is the same way as how I witness to unbelievers about Jesus Christ. I believe that if they do not have proper faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour that they are "yet in their sins". It is a very important matter and why those who believe in baptismal regeneration take the matter so soberly. I can appreciate that, but I believe it is a false teaching in that it places our faith in something other than our Lord and Saviour. I understand when I say this that those who hold this doctrine disagree that believing that baptism regenerates is placing faith in something other than Jesus, but I can't see it differently. So, I also take the matter soberly as I believe it is important to place faith properly.

Now, others in the thread have allowed that one might be regenerated unwittingly. I'm not sure how that would work actually. But I suppose it would be the faith of the ministers or the parents of an infant that would make good for the regeneration.

God Bless!

losthorizon
Jul 15th 2008, 04:02 AM
I have bolded the part that makes this something I agree with...I have bolded the part that makes this something I agree with. A sign...,or acknowledgment, or confession of one's faith.
How and when does baptism signify (a sign) “remission of sins” and how and when does baptism “engraft” the believer into Him? Can one be “in Christ” – ie – in the body of Christ without being immersed in water?
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls… And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts 2:41, 47 (KJV)

losthorizon
Jul 15th 2008, 04:10 AM
Yes, probably (in answer to the last question). But it is a close call.
What about the first question - is it possible that one’s sins are “washed away” at the point of baptism in water by the blood of Christ? You also didn't answer my other questions regarding the circumcision made without hands...

Would it make sense that as one goes under the baptismal water calling on the name of the Lord that the Holy Spirit performs the circumcision made without hands at that point in time so when the baptized believer comes up out of the water having his sins now washed away by the blood of Christ he is made free to “walk in newness of life”? Would this concept be impossible in your theology or is it possible?

genesisblu
Jul 15th 2008, 04:22 AM
Which part represents, born of water?

How exactly is the Spirit baptism accomplished? In what way is it bestowed?

In Ezekiel 36:25, God made this promise to Israel about a new covenant. He said, “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all you idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you will be careful to observe my ordinances or my commandments.”

Now what Ezekiel is writing there is, that the day is going to come when the Lord will wash your heart, he’ll wash your life; he’ll wash your inner man. He’ll put a new heart in you and he’ll put his Spirit in you.

So when Jesus talks to Nicodemus and says, "you must be born of the water and the Spirit," Nicodemus knows immediately that he is saying, "I am come to bring the fulfillment of the promised new covenant, promised to and through Ezekiel." Okay? See his is a Jewish Old Testament context, and so it would be actually what the apostle Paul calls, “The washing of regeneration.” The washing, the internal washing of regeneration, and the renewing that comes by the Holy Spirit, that’s Titus 3:5 where you have both the water and the Spirit.

Some men assume that "water" in John 3:5 must be plain fact; but they overlook the mystic or allegoric style in which this Gospel abounds. What is the "water" in John 4:10? Is the "water" plain fact in John 7:38? Nor did the Lord Himself interpret the figure in these cases, any more than in the momentous teaching of John 13:10, founded on His previous action. But in John 15:3 He gives a key to His meaning, if any needed one: "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." We are expressly told that He baptized none (John 4:2); but His words were spirit and life (John 6:63); and they received Him, believing on His name (John 1:12). They were thus born of God. Water is the figure for His word.

watchinginawe
Jul 15th 2008, 04:23 AM
What about the first question - is it possible that one’s sins are “washed away” at the point of baptism in water by the blood of Christ? You also didn't answer my other questions regarding the circumcision made without hands...

Would it make sense that as one goes under the baptismal water calling on the name of the Lord that the Holy Spirit performs the circumcision made without hands at that point in time so when the baptized believer comes up out of the water having his sins now washed away by the blood of Christ he is made free to “walk in newness of life”? Would this concept be impossible in your theology or is it possible?I don't believe this concept. I also don't believe that one should hold out a "possibility" and create a "just in case" circumstance. I believe one should be obedient to baptism as commanded. I believe that ministers should administer baptism as commanded, meaning that it should be preached as part of the Gospel. But when we add unto "believe and be baptized" a requirement of an attitude towards baptism besides belief (in Jesus Christ as one's Lord and Saviour) then we are misplacing our faith IMO.

God Bless!

losthorizon
Jul 15th 2008, 11:28 AM
I don't believe this concept. I also don't believe that one should hold out a "possibility" and create a "just in case" circumstance. I believe one should be obedient to baptism as commanded. I believe that ministers should administer baptism as commanded, meaning that it should be preached as part of the Gospel. But when we add unto "believe and be baptized" a requirement of an attitude towards baptism besides belief (in Jesus Christ as one's Lord and Saviour) then we are misplacing our faith IMO.

God Bless!
I don’t think the concept I present is a "just in case". When were Paul’s sins remitted (washed away) according to the NT? Were they washed away by the blood of Christ when he first believed when he encounter the Lord of the road to Damascus or were they washed away later when Ananias told him to “arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 22:16) – ie were his sins washed away before, during or after he was immersed in water?

watchinginawe
Jul 15th 2008, 01:08 PM
I don’t think the concept I present is a "just in case". When were Paul’s sins remitted (washed away) according to the NT? Were they washed away by the blood of Christ when he first believed when he encounter the Lord of the road to Damascus or were they washed away later when Ananias told him to “arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord” (Acts 22:16) – ie were his sins washed away before, during or after he was immersed in water?losthorizon, perhaps you should line out exactly where you disagree with the confession you offered a few posts back. Do you believe the above concurs with that confession? I do. But I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. It seems you are putting forth the notion that God witholds grace and "times" the blood of Christ with baptism. I propose that when one calls (believes) on the name of the Lord as their Saviour God's grace is received, through faith. As Peter offers:

Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Our hearts our purified by faith, not baptism.

Now Paul was praying and considering all that the Lord had showed him. As Paul shared with Agrippa, Jesus had told Paul:

Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

So here sits Saul on a street called Strait, blind, and behold, he prayeth:

Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

:hmm: That's interesting. Compare Acts 26:18 with 9:12 above. So we have Ananias coming to Saul and we see:

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

When was Saul's eyes opened? (compare to Acts 26:18) Saul received the Holy Ghost and placed faith in all that the Lord had showed him, and then was baptized, confessing his Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

God Bless!

Butch5
Jul 15th 2008, 10:31 PM
In Ezekiel 36:25, God made this promise to Israel about a new covenant. He said, “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all you idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you will be careful to observe my ordinances or my commandments.”

Now what Ezekiel is writing there is, that the day is going to come when the Lord will wash your heart, he’ll wash your life; he’ll wash your inner man. He’ll put a new heart in you and he’ll put his Spirit in you.

So when Jesus talks to Nicodemus and says, "you must be born of the water and the Spirit," Nicodemus knows immediately that he is saying, "I am come to bring the fulfillment of the promised new covenant, promised to and through Ezekiel." Okay? See his is a Jewish Old Testament context, and so it would be actually what the apostle Paul calls, “The washing of regeneration.” The washing, the internal washing of regeneration, and the renewing that comes by the Holy Spirit, that’s Titus 3:5 where you have both the water and the Spirit.

Some men assume that "water" in John 3:5 must be plain fact; but they overlook the mystic or allegoric style in which this Gospel abounds. What is the "water" in John 4:10? Is the "water" plain fact in John 7:38? Nor did the Lord Himself interpret the figure in these cases, any more than in the momentous teaching of John 13:10, founded on His previous action. But in John 15:3 He gives a key to His meaning, if any needed one: "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." We are expressly told that He baptized none (John 4:2); but His words were spirit and life (John 6:63); and they received Him, believing on His name (John 1:12). They were thus born of God. Water is the figure for His word.





Surely your not serious? Do you guys ever look at context?


Ezekiel 36:25-36 ( KJV ) 25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. 30And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. 31Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. 33Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. 34And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. 35And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. 36Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.

Do all Christians live in the promised land? That is where Ezekiel says they will be when God gives them a new heart. Do Christians dwell in the cities of the Promised land? Does the Promised land look like the Garden of Eden?

This is a promise to Israel, and it is still future, as evidenced by the description that Ezekiel gives. The land mentioned is the land Promised to Abraham, does it look like the Garden of Eden? It doesn't now. So as for Nicodemus I don''t think He thought Jesus was coming to fulfil that prophesy.

So, how is the Spirit bestowed?

genesisblu
Jul 15th 2008, 11:20 PM
Surely your not serious? Do you guys ever look at context?


Ezekiel 36:25-36 ( KJV ) 25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. 30And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. 31Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. 33Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. 34And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. 35And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. 36Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.

Do all Christians live in the promised land? That is where Ezekiel says they will be when God gives them a new heart. Do Christians dwell in the cities of the Promised land? Does the Promised land look like the Garden of Eden?

This is a promise to Israel, and it is still future, as evidenced by the description that Ezekiel gives. The land mentioned is the land Promised to Abraham, does it look like the Garden of Eden? It doesn't now. So as for Nicodemus I don''t think He thought Jesus was coming to fulfil that prophesy.

So, how is the Spirit bestowed?

It is a prophecy he should have recognized, but didn't.

The Spirit is bestowed by Jesus upon believing in Him. How many times does that have to be answered?

losthorizon
Jul 15th 2008, 11:23 PM
losthorizon, perhaps you should line out exactly where you disagree with the confession you offered a few posts back.


Why don’t I just tell you what I agree with…


1. Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, to be unto the party baptized, a sign of his fellowship with him, in his death and resurrection; of his being engrafted into him; of remission of sins; and of giving up into God, through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life. ( Romans 6:3-5; Colossians 2;12; Galatians 3:27; Mark 1:4; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:4 )
Baptism is a “sign” – ie – it signifies or symbolizes the forgiveness of sins through His blood (Acts 22:16). And while baptism is a symbol it is also a reality and as an act of obedience it precedes salvation just as belief and repentance (acts of obedience) also precede salvation. Peter clearly taught “...baptism doth also NOW save us” . How does baptism “save”? According to Peter baptism saves through the resurrection of Jesus Christ as an appeal for a good conscience. (1 Pet 3:21).


2. Those who do actually profess repentance towards God, faith in, and obedience to, our Lord Jesus Christ, are the only proper subjects of this ordinance.
( Mark 16:16; Acts 8:36, 37; Acts 2:41; Acts 8:12; Acts 18:8 )
Regardless of how the OP defines “baptismal regeneration” the truth is the term is applied to the notion presented by some organizations in Christendom that teach baptism is a “sacrament” that can mysteriously remit sins without the “fruit of faith” commanded by the Christ – and that fruit is belief and repentance as presented in God’s plan of redeem sinful men. One who is baptized without a personal faith in Jesus Christ only gets wet. This truth eliminates infant baptism (sprinkling) – infants do not have the mental maturity to believe and repent (they have no sin to repent of).

Anyone who has only been “baptized” as an infant has not been scripturally baptized. Baptism is a “burial in water” of the “old man” (the sinner) and the resurrection of the “new man” who has been cleansed by the blood of Christ as he is baptized into His death… “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him [in baptism], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin…”
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Romans 6:1-6 (KJV)

3. The outward element to be used in this ordinance is water, wherein the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. ( Matthew 28:19, 20; Acts 8:38 )

4. Immersion, or dipping of the person in water, is necessary to the due administration of this ordinance. ( Matthew 3:16; John 3:23 )
Baptism is a burial in water – and its effect is spiritual – baptism is an emblem of an inner cleansing by the blood of Christ through the “operation of God”.
"Baptism itself is a corporal act by which we are plunged into the water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from our sins..." Tertullian (140-230 AD)

Butch5
Jul 15th 2008, 11:45 PM
It is a prophecy he should have recognized, but didn't.

The Spirit is bestowed by Jesus upon believing in Him. How many times does that have to be answered?

You don't know whether He recognized it or not. That doesn't matter because the prophecy is still in the future. See, this is what I mean. You did not deal with the issue, the prophecy does not support your position. You claim the Spirit is bestowed upon believing in Jesus, yet you have no Scripture. The prophecy does not help you.

genesisblu
Jul 15th 2008, 11:48 PM
Nevertheless Nicodemus, as a master of Israel, ought to have understood this. The prophets had declared that Israel was to undergo this change, in order to enjoy the fulfilment of the promises (see Ezek. 36), which God had given them with regard to their blessing in the holy land. But Jesus spoke of these things in an immediate way, and in connection with the nature and the glory of God Himself. A master in Israel ought to have known that which the sure word of prophecy contained. The Son of God declared that which He knew, and that which He had seen with His Father. ~commentary by John Darby of John 3

b. In His description of new birth, Jesus recalls a familiar theme from Old Testament promises of the New Covenant (Deuteronomy 30:1-6, Jeremiah 23:1-8, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Jeremiah 32:37-41, Ezekiel 11:16-20, Ezekiel 36:16-28, Ezekiel 37:11-14, 37:21-28). These passages essentially make three promises in the New Covenant:


The regathering of Israel.
The cleansing and spiritual transformation of God's people.
The reign of the Messiah over Israel and the whole world. ~Commentary by David Guzik

5. of water and of the Spirit--A twofold explanation of the "new birth," so startling to Nicodemus. To a Jewish ecclesiastic, so familiar with the symbolical application of water, in every variety of way and form of expression, this language was fitted to show that the thing intended was no other than a thorough spiritual purification by the operation of the Holy Ghost. Indeed, element of water and operation of the Spirit are brought together in a glorious evangelical prediction of Ezekiel (Eze 36:25-27 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=Eze+36:25-27)), which Nicodemus might have been reminded of had such spiritualities not been almost lost in the reigning formalism. ~Commentary by Jamieson, Fausset, Brown

Apparently several don't know how to read it in context I guess?

genesisblu
Jul 15th 2008, 11:55 PM
You don't know whether He recognized it or not. That doesn't matter because the prophecy is still in the future. See, this is what I mean. You did not deal with the issue, the prophecy does not support your position. You claim the Spirit is bestowed upon believing in Jesus, yet you have no Scripture. The prophecy does not help you.

You asked what represented born of water.

John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Galatians 3:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=2&version=50&context=verse)
This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)
that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 16th 2008, 12:07 AM
Surely your not serious? Do you guys ever look at context?


Ezekiel 36:25-36 ( KJV ) 25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Do all Christians live in the promised land? That is where Ezekiel says they will be when God gives them a new heart. Do Christians dwell in the cities of the Promised land? Does the Promised land look like the Garden of Eden?

This is a promise to Israel, and it is still future, as evidenced by the description that Ezekiel gives. The land mentioned is the land Promised to Abraham, does it look like the Garden of Eden? It doesn't now. So as for Nicodemus I don''t think He thought Jesus was coming to fulfil that prophesy.

We are talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit here and how God does this... do you think he will have new and different way rather than sprinkling water upon us than what was spoken of in Ezekiel? We have many similar verses in the NT. Here are just a couple:

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Acts 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Acts 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Acts 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

The context is correct.



So, how is the Spirit bestowed?

Now this has been a bit of an eye opener here while debating this as I have searched the scriptures on the subject and am pretty sure I have found all that deal with this.

Some stand on this scripture alone to show that the Holy Spirit is given when baptized in water, although no water is mentioned here:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

But when we examine the scriptures during and after the day of penticost what do we find?

There is no mention of anyone ever receiving the Holy Spirit during or after baptism in water... none that I can find at all! In fact Acts 8:16 and Acts 19:3 talks of them being baptized in water and having not recieved the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Acts 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

What we do have is the Holy Spirit falling upon others on the day of penticost and Peter connecting this directly to baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit fell on them before baptism in water. Then we also find that the Holy spirit is given at least three times by the laying on of the hands.

But nowhere does it mention anyone receiving the Holy Spirit by water baptism... during or after. We only find this happening to Jesus before penticost. The only other place is when Jesus breathed on the apostles... still no mention of the apostles being baptized in water at all ever.

We find that it is written that John baptized with water and that the Holy Spirit was not given that way except in Acts 2:38 and only if we assume the baptism spoken of is with water in John's baptism.

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

In Acts 18:25 a man of faith is corrected concerning things of the Lord as he only knew john's baptism.

Acts 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

Acts 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

In John 3:25 they had asked about purifying and John's answer is clear "A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven" so as the purificating or the washing of water by the word was not done by man!

John 3:25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.

John 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

John 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

Maybe I missed a scripture somewhere that shows the Holy Spirit is given after baptism in water? If so please point it out.

Michael

Butch5
Jul 16th 2008, 12:08 AM
Nevertheless Nicodemus, as a master of Israel, ought to have understood this. The prophets had declared that Israel was to undergo this change, in order to enjoy the fulfilment of the promises (see Ezek. 36), which God had given them with regard to their blessing in the holy land. But Jesus spoke of these things in an immediate way, and in connection with the nature and the glory of God Himself. A master in Israel ought to have known that which the sure word of prophecy contained. The Son of God declared that which He knew, and that which He had seen with His Father. ~commentary by John Darby of John 3

b. In His description of new birth, Jesus recalls a familiar theme from Old Testament promises of the New Covenant (Deuteronomy 30:1-6, Jeremiah 23:1-8, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Jeremiah 32:37-41, Ezekiel 11:16-20, Ezekiel 36:16-28, Ezekiel 37:11-14, 37:21-28). These passages essentially make three promises in the New Covenant:



The regathering of Israel.
The cleansing and spiritual transformation of God's people.
The reign of the Messiah over Israel and the whole world. ~Commentary by David Guzik
5. of water and of the Spirit--A twofold explanation of the "new birth," so startling to Nicodemus. To a Jewish ecclesiastic, so familiar with the symbolical application of water, in every variety of way and form of expression, this language was fitted to show that the thing intended was no other than a thorough spiritual purification by the operation of the Holy Ghost. Indeed, element of water and operation of the Spirit are brought together in a glorious evangelical prediction of Ezekiel (Eze 36:25-27 (http://studylight.org/desk/?query=Eze+36:25-27)), which Nicodemus might have been reminded of had such spiritualities not been almost lost in the reigning formalism. ~Commentary by Jamieson, Fausset, Brown

Apparently several don't know how to read it in context I guess?


Apparently, which proves my point. You read all of these guys, all modern commentators. How do they know what Nicodemus was thinking? How do they know whether or not Nicodemus recognized the the prophecy? How do you know ANY of these guys are correct? Obviously they can't be, because the prophecy clearly states that at that time they will dwell in the given to Abraham. Just because you read something in a commentary doesn't mean it is right.

Butch5
Jul 16th 2008, 12:25 AM
We are talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit here and how God does this... do you think he will have new and different way rather than sprinkling water upon us than what was spoken of in Ezekiel? We have many similar verses in the NT. Here are just a couple:

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Acts 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Acts 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Acts 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

The context is correct.



Now this has been a bit of an eye opener here while debating this as I have searched the scriptures on the subject and am pretty sure I have found all that deal with this.

Some stand on this scripture alone to show that the Holy Spirit is given when baptized in water, although no water is mentioned here:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

But when we examine the scriptures during and after the day of penticost what do we find?

There is no mention of anyone ever receiving the Holy Spirit during or after baptism in water... none that I can find at all! In fact Acts 8:16 and Acts 19:3 talks of them being baptized in water and having not recieved the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Acts 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

What we do have is the Holy Spirit falling upon others on the day of penticost and Peter connecting this directly to baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit fell on them before baptism in water. Then we also find that the Holy spirit is given at least three times by the laying on of the hands.

But nowhere does it mention anyone receiving the Holy Spirit by water baptism... during or after. We only find this happening to Jesus before penticost. The only other place is when Jesus breathed on the apostles... still no mention of the apostles being baptized in water at all ever.

We find that it is written that John baptized with water and that the Holy Spirit was not given that way except in Acts 2:38 and only if we assume the baptism spoken of is with water in John's baptism.

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

In Acts 18:25 a man of faith is corrected concerning things of the Lord as he only knew john's baptism.

Acts 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

Acts 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

In John 3:25 they had asked about purifying and John's answer is clear "A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven" so as the purificating or the washing of water by the word was not done by man!

John 3:25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.

John 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

John 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

Maybe I missed a scripture somewhere that shows the Holy Spirit is given after baptism in water? If so please point it out.

Michael

Michael,

For a good list and explaination of the verses related to baptism check out this link. Read the first two posts.

http://thechristiancafe.yuku.com/topic/382

Butch5
Jul 16th 2008, 12:31 AM
genesisblu---You asked what represented born of water.

John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


In Titus 3:5, Paul already makes reference to the Spirit Baptism.


genesisblu---Galatians 3:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=2&version=50&context=verse)
This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=2&version=50&context=verse)Galatians 3:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=14&version=50&context=verse)
that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=2&version=50&context=verse)
I've already dealt with this. Water baptism is part of the faith of Jesus Christ.

losthorizon
Jul 16th 2008, 12:40 AM
Some men assume that "water" in John 3:5 must be plain fact; but they overlook the mystic or allegoric style in which this Gospel abounds. What is the "water" in John 4:10? Is the "water" plain fact in John 7:38? Nor did the Lord Himself interpret the figure in these cases, any more than in the momentous teaching of John 13:10, founded on His previous action. But in John 15:3 He gives a key to His meaning, if any needed one: "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." We are expressly told that He baptized none (John 4:2); but His words were spirit and life (John 6:63); and they received Him, believing on His name (John 1:12).


Tell me more about this “mystic” gospel. The truth of the matter is the "water" of the new birth is just that - plain old H2O – ie - “born of water and the Spirit” is the reference to the ordinance of baptism and the regenerating operation of the Holy Spirit. The one baptism of Ephesians 4:5 is the “water” of the new birth “of water and the Spirit" (John 3:5). The new birth is one birth - two essentials - water and Spirit - "through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.” The ordinance of baptism in water is simply the "sign and seal of the renewing influences of his Spirit."
Joh 3:5

Be born of water - By “water,” here, is evidently signified “baptism.” Thus the word is used in Eph_5:26; Tit_3:5. Baptism was practiced by the Jews in receiving a Gentile as a proselyte. It was practiced by John among the Jews; and Jesus here says that it is an ordinance of his religion, and the sign and seal of the renewing influences of his Spirit. So he said Mar_16:16, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” It is clear from these places, and from the example of the apostles Act_2:38, Act_2:41; Act_8:12-13, Act_8:36, Act_8:38; Act_9:18; Act_10:47-48; Act_16:15, Act_16:33; Act_18:8; Act_22:16; Gal_3:27, that they considered this ordinance as binding on all who professed to love the Lord Jesus. And though it cannot be said that none who are not baptized can be saved, yet Jesus meant, undoubtedly, to be understood as affirming that this was to be the regular and uniform way of entering into his church; that it was the appropriate mode of making a profession of religion; and that a man who neglected this, when the duty was made known to him, neglected a plain command of God. It is clear, also, that any other command of God might as well be neglected or violated as this, and that it is the duty of everyone not only to love the Saviour, but to make an acknowledgment of that love by being baptized, and by devoting himself thus to his service.

But, lest Nicodemus should suppose that this was all that was meant, he added that it was necessary that he should “be born of the Spirit” also. This was predicted of the Saviour, that he should “baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire,” Mat_3:11. By this is clearly intended that the heart must be changed by the agency of the Holy Spirit; that the love of sin must be abandoned; that man must repent of crime and turn to God; that he must renounce all his evil propensities, and give himself to a life of prayer and holiness, of meekness, purity, and benevolence. This great change is in the Scripture ascribed uniformly to the Holy Spirit, Tit_3:5; 1Th_1:6; Rom_5:5; 1Pe_1:22. ~ Albert Barnes

losthorizon
Jul 16th 2008, 01:06 AM
When was Saul's eyes opened? (compare to Acts 26:18) Saul received the Holy Ghost and placed faith in all that the Lord had showed him, and then was baptized, confessing his Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


That’s an interesting comment. The question that goes begging though is this – if Saul’s sins were in fact *washed away* by he blood of Christ BEFORE he was immersed in water why would Ananias instruct him to be baptized and *wash away his sins* – ie – why wash away sins that have already been washed away? Was Ananias - who was instructed by the Lord - mistaken? This makes no sense and goes against what is taught in the NT. The correct answer is Paul’s sins were washed away when he was immersed in water – into the death of Christ – his sins were remitted by the operation of the Holy Spirit as he called on the name of the Lord.
“Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead” (Col 2:12).Did Jesus tell us that both belief and baptism come BEFORE one shall be saved - “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved…” – or did He say, “he that believes and is saved shall be baptized…”? It can't be both ways.

watchinginawe
Jul 16th 2008, 01:41 AM
Did Jesus tell us that both belief and baptism come BEFORE one shall be saved - “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved…” – or did He say, “he that believes and is saved shall be baptized…”? It can't be both ways.We could go back and forth forever. But I did want to say "yes", Jesus saying belief saves us. I won't post the scriptures because everyone is familiar with them and it will only encourage another volley of scriptures back.

So, I think I am comfortable that I have made the points I wanted to for now. And as always, I have enjoyed discussing this with you and the others.

God Bless!

losthorizon
Jul 16th 2008, 02:08 AM
We could go back and forth forever. But I did want to say "yes", Jesus saying belief saves us. I won't post the scriptures because everyone is familiar with them and it will only encourage another volley of scriptures back.

So, I think I am comfortable that I have made the points I wanted to for now. And as always, I have enjoyed discussing this with you and the others.

God Bless!
It is the blood of Christ that completely and finally saves us from all sins...a propitiation through faith in his blood. Peace.
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God (Romans 3:24-25).

genesisblu
Jul 16th 2008, 02:19 AM
Apparently, which proves my point. You read all of these guys, all modern commentators. How do they know what Nicodemus was thinking? How do they know whether or not Nicodemus recognized the the prophecy? How do you know ANY of these guys are correct? Obviously they can't be, because the prophecy clearly states that at that time they will dwell in the given to Abraham. Just because you read something in a commentary doesn't mean it is right.

Actually just for the record I didn't get it from these, I looked these up afterwards. And these are just a few of the MANY I found.

genesisblu
Jul 16th 2008, 02:48 AM
Ok so let's take one of the earliest then... Spurgeon (http://www.biblebelievers.net/Doctrine/kjcbapt2.htm) says, 'For of all lies which have dragged millions down to hell, I look upon this (Baptismal Regeneration) as being the most atrocious.' ..What must I do to be saved?... the answer shall be Not Through a Legalistic System of Water and Works, but through a genuine new birth, wrought in the sinner's heart by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God.

losthorizon
Jul 16th 2008, 03:15 AM
Ok so let's take one of the earliest then... Spurgeon (http://www.biblebelievers.net/Doctrine/kjcbapt2.htm) says, 'For of all lies which have dragged millions down to hell, I look upon this (Baptismal Regeneration) as being the most atrocious.' ..What must I do to be saved?... the answer shall be Not Through a Legalistic System of Water and Works, but through a genuine new birth, wrought in the sinner's heart by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God.



The Pulpit Commentary – arguably the best commentary on the NT ever produced in the English language – is the product of Baptist scholarship. When the editors of that good work wrote the truth that both belief and baptism take place before salvation were they guilty of promoting your version of "baptismal regeneration"? Was Jesus promoting baptismal regeneration? :hmm: If I take Jesus at His word and obey from the heart His command to believe and be baptized in order to be saved will I be damned for obeying a "Legalistic System"? Do you really understand what you are saying?
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...” (Mark 16:16)

"These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation

genesisblu
Jul 16th 2008, 04:24 AM
I know exactly what I am saying...JESUS CHRIST SAVED ME ALL BY HIMSELF...you are saying Jesus and you saved yourself.

Gentile
Jul 16th 2008, 05:07 PM
It's not a weak argument, what is a week argument is saying that faith alone saves us when there is not a single verse of Scripture which states that.

Dude are kidding me!?!?!? Have you even opened a bible? I am not going to start posting references because I am sure someone has already. This board amazes me at times, really.

MidnightsPaleGlow
Jul 16th 2008, 05:26 PM
Dude are kidding me!?!?!? Have you even opened a bible? I am not going to start posting references because I am sure someone has already. This board amazes me at times, really.

I agree, there are SCORES of verses that say "faith alone" saves us, I'm starting to think that maybe this guy is not really a Christian after all...

BrckBrln
Jul 16th 2008, 05:32 PM
I'm starting to think that maybe this guy is not really a Christian after all...

It's posts like these that annoy me worse than the baptismal regeneration ones. :B

genesisblu
Jul 16th 2008, 07:30 PM
I totally understand frustration over this issue but no matter what side of it we are on I think it important that we not make judgments on others salvation. Let;s refrain from making it personal in that regard. :) That is something between each of us and God.

I say this in gentleness not condemnation for all of us.

Butch5
Jul 16th 2008, 08:03 PM
Dude are kidding me!?!?!? Have you even opened a bible? I am not going to start posting references because I am sure someone has already. This board amazes me at times, really.

Yes I have, you are welcome to post one. But first define Faith. If you mean mental belief, you will not find one. Don't just start posting verses that say we are saved by faith. Post verses that say we are saved by faith alone. Just because a verse says we are saved by faith does not negate any other Scripture. In other words, Just because Paul said we are saved by grace through faith, that doesn't mean that Peter was wrong when He said baptism does now saved us. Paul is dealing with a different issue than Peter was. Paul was dealing with the Judaizers who were trying to make the Gentile believers get circumcised, which is a work of the law. Paul was refuting this by saying you are saved by grace through faith and not of works (works of the law). Paul was not giving them a description of how to be saved. In the context of His argument which was between faith and the works of the law, Paul says you are saved by faith. Right after He say not of works, He say in Christ you were created for good works (not works of the law).

Butch5
Jul 16th 2008, 08:14 PM
Ok so let's take one of the earliest then... Spurgeon (http://www.biblebelievers.net/Doctrine/kjcbapt2.htm) says, 'For of all lies which have dragged millions down to hell, I look upon this (Baptismal Regeneration) as being the most atrocious.' ..What must I do to be saved?... the answer shall be Not Through a Legalistic System of Water and Works, but through a genuine new birth, wrought in the sinner's heart by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God.




So according to Spurgeon, obeying the command of God takes one to hell.

He's just another modern commentator. He studied the same reformers that the other commentators did.

If you are going to look at commentaries, you can look to the reformers for their understanding of the doctrine, or you can look to the early church. They are opposing each other, so you will have to choose which to believe. As I have stated before, the early church was actually there, so my money is on them, not the reformers whose goal was to oppose the Catholic church at every turn.

Butch5
Jul 16th 2008, 08:18 PM
I agree, there are SCORES of verses that say "faith alone" saves us, I'm starting to think that maybe this guy is not really a Christian after all...

Just need one. There is only one verse that says faith only.

James 2:24 ( KJV ) 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Yankee Candle
Jul 16th 2008, 09:27 PM
We are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) and not by our own effort (works). Baptism only symbolizes what has already taken place in our hearts; death to self and the resurrection of the spirit to the newness of life (Romans 6:3-5). This has to be a symbolical thing because God does not require His children to die physically when they accept Christ.

James does not contradict Paul in 2:22, he is simply describing justification in the eyes of MAN not God. Look at vs 18;

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

This is a 'faith' that is eye-level for us. It considers that doing good is necessary to prove to those who are watching us that we have been born again.

The waters of baptism won't do a thing to wash away our sins; that is what the blood of Jesus does.

"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood."

And our salvation is not by our works;

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Those who say otherwise are not trusting in the finished work of Christ upon the cross, but in themselves and their own efforts.

MidnightsPaleGlow
Jul 16th 2008, 09:35 PM
Just need one. There is only one verse that says faith only.

James 2:24 ( KJV ) 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

How about, just for starters:

From the book of John:

3:16 (I shall not write this one out as everyone who claims to be a Christian should know this one).

3:36-He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

5:24-Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Acts:

16:31-And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

26:18-To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Romans:

4:5-But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

5:1-Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians:

3:2-This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3:26-For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians:

2:8-For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

1 John:

5:11-13-And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Revelation:

3:20 (Part of the basis for "asking Jesus into your heart" as part of the sinner's prayer)-Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

So you can't use that single verse from the book of James, a book that actually almost didn't make it into the biblical canon, to support your "justification by works" theology, because an overwhelming number of verses defeat that right there.

MidnightsPaleGlow
Jul 16th 2008, 09:38 PM
We are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) and not by our own effort (works). Baptism only symbolizes what has already taken place in our hearts; death to self and the resurrection of the spirit to the newness of life (Romans 6:3-5). This has to be a symbolical thing because God does not require His children to die physically when they accept Christ.

James does not contradict Paul in 2:22, he is simply describing justification in the eyes of MAN not God. Look at vs 18;

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

This is a 'faith' that is eye-level for us. It considers that doing good is necessary to prove to those who are watching us that we have been born again.

The waters of baptism won't do a thing to wash away our sins; that is what the blood of Jesus does.

"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood."

And our salvation is not by our works;

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Those who say otherwise are not trusting in the finished work of Christ upon the cross, but in themselves and their own efforts.


http://images-partners-tbn.google.com/images?q=tbn:WCZ059Vk3pUmMM:thirtyyorkstreet.com/Silver-cups.jpg


Agreed. This is the exact point I've been stressing, but some people just don't seem to get it. :rolleyes:

losthorizon
Jul 16th 2008, 10:24 PM
We are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) and not by our own effort (works). Baptism only symbolizes what has already taken place in our hearts; death to self and the resurrection of the spirit to the newness of life (Romans 6:3-5).


The fact that we are saved by grace through faith does not negate the teaching of the NT that faith, repentance and baptism take place before one is saved. These three examples of the fruit of faith are not works of merit that man does to “earn” salvation – they are acts of obedience required by God. Baptism is God's own work by which the Holy Spirit works salvation in us through the blood of Christ. Martin Luther – the reformer who coined the term “faith alone” salvation - had this truth to say about baptism…[emphasis mine]
Baptism is no human trifle, but that it was established by God Himself. Moreover, He earnestly and solemnly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. No one is to think that it is an optional matter like putting on a red coat. It is of greatest importance that we hold Baptism in high esteem as something splendid and glorious. The reason why we are striving and battling so strenuously for this view of Baptism is that the world nowadays is full of sects that loudly proclaim that Baptism is merely an external form and that external forms are useless.... Although Baptism is indeed performed by human hands, yet it is truly God’s own action…Martin Luther, on BaptismWas Martin Luther a promoter of “baptismal regeneration? Peter said that in some sense “baptism saves”. Was Peter a promoter of baptismal regeneration?




In it [Noah's ark] only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ [see Romans 6:3-4]. (1 Peter 3:20-21)Jesus said that both belief and baptism take place before one is saved. Did Jesus promote baptismal regeneration?
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)The truth of the matter is the term *baptismal regeneration* is the notion that baptism is a “sacrament” that has magical qualities to remit sins separate and apart from faith in Christ. But the NT is clear – one’s sins are remitted when one believes, repents and is baptized for the remission of sins…
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

losthorizon
Jul 16th 2008, 10:36 PM
So you can't use that single verse from the book of James, a book that actually almost didn't make it into the biblical canon, to support your "justification by works" theology, because an overwhelming number of verses defeat that right there.
But the question remains - was James wrong or is it true that by works a man is justified and not by faith only? What is your definition of “works”? Does not the Bible teach that there are "works of God" that one must DO to please Him? Are you suggesting the Book of James should be removed from the cannon of the NT because of the truth presented above - ie - by works a man is justified and not by faith only?

MidnightsPaleGlow
Jul 17th 2008, 02:25 AM
The fact that we are saved by grace through faith does not negate the teaching of the NT that faith, repentance and baptism take place before one is saved.

So that means if an astronaut's space ship sustained damage in outer space and he cried out to the Lord to save him, and then the ship shuts down and all life support systems on board die, therefore killing the astronaut, then that astronaut is in hell since he couldn't get baptized? Based on the arguments you've given me, that means all the people who repent and are saved on their deathbeds by faith end up in hell since they probably weren't able to be baptized? Isn't repentance a supernatural gift of God via means of the Holy Spirit? And faith a gift of God? You keep putting your fence back up, and like those butt-heads who came up with fence plowing, I keep smashing it down and will continue to do so.

THERE'S GOING TO BE A PART 2 TO THIS SOON: HOW THE MINISTRY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT PLAYS INTO THIS WHOLE DEAL, THAT SHOULD HELP SOUND THE DEATH-KNELL TO BAPTISMAL REGENERATION. STAY TUNED, I GOTTA START WRITING UP PART 2, BUT WHEN IT COMES, I WILL MOST DEFINATELY POST IT.

Face it, I've defeated this baptismal regeneration argument once and for all, and backed up my point with those passages mentioning over and over who received the Holy Spirit before baptism, meaning they were SAVED, ENTIRELY BY THAT FAITH.

After all, the song goes, "What can wash away my sins? NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS." I guess I should write one for these baptismal regenerationists who refuse to accept the fact that I've defeated their arguments: "What can wash away my sins? Nothing but the water of baptism. :rolleyes: :lol:"

MidnightsPaleGlow
Jul 17th 2008, 02:28 AM
But the question remains - was James wrong or is it true that by works a man is justified and not by faith only? What is your definition of “works”? Does not the Bible teach that there are "works of God" that one must DO to please Him? Are you suggesting the Book of James should be removed from the cannon of the NT because of the truth presented above - ie - by works a man is justified and not by faith only?

No, I never said the book of James should be removed, you totally missed it when I said IT ALMOST DIDN'T MAKE IT INTO THE BIBLICAL CANON! It was almost omitted from the books that make up the scriptures, meaning, we would have had 65 instead of the 66 we have now.

losthorizon
Jul 17th 2008, 02:47 AM
So that means if an astronaut's space ship sustained damage in outer space and he cried out to the Lord to save him...


But you are not an astronaut way out there in space are you? You are here in reality with me and everyone reading this post can read their Bible that plainly teaches from the words of the Christ – “He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.” It’s there in black and white for those willing to hear the word of God. Your "argument" is yet another non-argument.


Face it, I've defeated this baptismal regeneration argument once and for all, and backed up my point with those passages mentioning over and over who received the Holy Spirit before baptism, meaning they were SAVED, ENTIRELY BY THAT FAITH.
LOL - as already mentioned and proven by your own words – you totally misunderstand what baptismal regeneration is and you have yet to even “defeat” the straw man you have erected. The truth remains what it is – and the biblical truth teaches us all that belief, repentance and baptism all come before salvation…
"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:37-38 (KJV)

“and now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

“…eight souls were saved by water…The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21

MidnightsPaleGlow
Jul 17th 2008, 03:18 AM
But you are not an astronaut way out there in space are you? You are here in reality with me and everyone reading this post can read their Bible that plainly teaches from the words of the Christ – “He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.” It’s there in black and white for those willing to hear the word of God. Your "argument" is yet another non-argument.


LOL - as already mentioned and proven by your own words – you totally misunderstand what baptismal regeneration is and you have yet to even “defeat” the straw man you have erected. The truth remains what it is – and the biblical truth teaches us all that belief, repentance and baptism all come before salvation…
"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:37-38 (KJV)

“and now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

“…eight souls were saved by water…The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21

AND YOU, keep quoting over and over the passages that baptismal regenerationists frequently cite, it is plainly stated in the book of Acts in Ch. 10:43-47 that as Peter spoke the words, the Holy Spirit descended on all who heard the word and baptized them into the body of Christ, as evidenced by their speaking in tongues. They were then commanded to be water baptized because, Uh Oh, here's the kicker: THE HOLY SPIRIT HAD ALREADY INDWELLED THEM, AS EVIDENCED BY THEIR SPEAKING IN TONGUES, MEANING THEY WERE SAVED, THEN PETER INSTRUCTED THEM TO BE BAPTIZED AS A TESTIMONY OF THEIR SALVATION, NOT FOR THEIR SALVATION, AS THEY ALREADY WERE SAVED. Acts 11:14-18: Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
In the above cited passages, Peter is talking about how those Peter preached to received the Holy Spirit just like Peter and the others received prior to going out and preaching the word, which is exactly what happened in Acts 10:43-47. Those who Peter preached to believed, and therefore received the Holy Spirit themselves by their faith, as evidenced by their speaking in tongues. In Acts 15:7-9, Peter mentions the gentiles heard the gospel, believed it, received the Holy Spirit by faith and were purified as a result, WITHOUT BAPTISM IN WATER. These aren't exceptions to what it says in your beloved Acts 2:38, it's reality, and reality isn't always kind.



Oh, BTW, I read that there is a slight translational discrepency in Acts 2:38, the Greek word "eis" is translated as "for," but it also means "because of," so in reality, Peter is/was more than likely saying: Repent and be baptized BECAUSE OF the remission of sins. As he later says in Acts 3:19-20, a parallel passage to Acts 2:38, Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you. Read Acts 3:19-20, then jump ahead to Acts 10:43-47, 11:14-18, and 15:7-9, and you will see that Acts 2:38 holds no water (no pun intended) in supporting that baptism is necessary for salvation. Why can't I make this any clearer? I sunk your battleship in the baptismal font.

losthorizon
Jul 17th 2008, 03:52 AM
AND YOU, keep quoting over and over the passages that baptismal regenerationists frequently cite...


And who spoke those words that you dislike so much – was it not Jesus Himself? You didn’t answer my questions (4th request) - do you think Jesus was promoting baptismal regeneration when He said believe and be baptized and you will be saved? If I take Jesus at His word and obey from the heart His command to believe and be baptized in order to be saved will I be damned as a “baptismal regenerationists”?


CONCERNING BAPTISM: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

Please observe that I did not make the text. Perhaps, if I had made it, I should have left out that piece about baptism; but I have had no hand in making the Bible, I am obliged to take God’s Word as I find it, and here I read these words of our Lord Jesus Christ, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." "Do not dwell on the baptism," says one; "leave that out." That is what you say, my dear Sir; I cannot see your face, but I do not believe that you are my master. My Master is the Lord who taught holy men to write this Book, and I can only go by the Book; the Book has the baptism in it, so I must stick to the truth as it is in the Book: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

First, let me remind you that our Savior’s words teach us that baptism follows faith: "He that believeth and is baptized." Never neglect the order of things in the Bible. If God puts them one, two, three, do not you put them three, two, one... ~ Charles Spurgeon

Oh, BTW, I read that there is a slight translational discrepency in Acts 2:38, the Greek word "eis" is translated as "for," but it also means "because of…
If that were true (and it is not) why does every English version translate the Greek "eis" to mean "for" – “into” – “unto” and NEVER “because of”. No mate, there is no translational discrepency in Acts 2:38. According to Thayer’s Lexicon – EIS - "...to obtain the forgiveness of sins, Acts 2:38..." – ie – belief, repentance and baptism are acts of obedience to obtain the forgiveness of sins through His blood. It doesn’t get any clearer -does it – next. ;)
For the remission of sins - Εις αφεσιν ἁμαρτιων, In reference to the remission or removal of sins: baptism pointing out the purifying influences of the Holy Spirit; and it is in reference to that purification that it is administered, and should in consideration never be separated from it. For baptism itself purifies not the conscience; it only points out the grace by which this is to be done. ~ Adam Clarke

daughter
Jul 17th 2008, 11:40 AM
AND YOU, keep quoting over and over the passages that baptismal regenerationists frequently cite, it is plainly stated in the book of Acts in Ch. 10:43-47 that as Peter spoke the words, the Holy Spirit descended on all who heard the word and baptized them into the body of Christ, as evidenced by their speaking in tongues. They were then commanded to be water baptized because, Uh Oh, here's the kicker: THE HOLY SPIRIT HAD ALREADY INDWELLED THEM, AS EVIDENCED BY THEIR SPEAKING IN TONGUES, MEANING THEY WERE SAVED, THEN PETER INSTRUCTED THEM TO BE BAPTIZED AS A TESTIMONY OF THEIR SALVATION, NOT FOR THEIR SALVATION, AS THEY ALREADY WERE SAVED. Acts 11:14-18: Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
In the above cited passages, Peter is talking about how those Peter preached to received the Holy Spirit just like Peter and the others received prior to going out and preaching the word, which is exactly what happened in Acts 10:43-47. Those who Peter preached to believed, and therefore received the Holy Spirit themselves by their faith, as evidenced by their speaking in tongues. In Acts 15:7-9, Peter mentions the gentiles heard the gospel, believed it, received the Holy Spirit by faith and were purified as a result, WITHOUT BAPTISM IN WATER. These aren't exceptions to what it says in your beloved Acts 2:38, it's reality, and reality isn't always kind.



Oh, BTW, I read that there is a slight translational discrepency in Acts 2:38, the Greek word "eis" is translated as "for," but it also means "because of," so in reality, Peter is/was more than likely saying: Repent and be baptized BECAUSE OF the remission of sins. As he later says in Acts 3:19-20, a parallel passage to Acts 2:38, Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you. Read Acts 3:19-20, then jump ahead to Acts 10:43-47, 11:14-18, and 15:7-9, and you will see that Acts 2:38 holds no water (no pun intended) in supporting that baptism is necessary for salvation. Why can't I make this any clearer? I sunk your battleship in the baptismal font.

Midnight's Pale Glow... I read Greek, reasonably well, and the problem with your interpretation of the passage is that it supposes an "either/or" situation. I don't know if you speak any languages other than English, but if you do, you will recognise that different languages do indeed "think" differently from each other. The Greek, I believe, holds a tension between the two ideas. You can't say "Peter probably meant INSTEAD..." The actual text seems to imply that Peter must have meant AS WELL.

What I am saying is, you are getting hett up about a matter of interpretation, which is NOT salvific, and therefore you shouldn't put so much weight on it. We are to believe in JESUS and be saved, everything else flows from it, including baptism. Certainly we are not to attack brothers in Christ. You are placing your faith in this instance on the scholarship and interpretation of others. That's a bad thing... for all concerned.

You seem perfectly capable of learning Koine Greek, and if you really want to do so, I can recommend some very good texts. However... quibbling over Greek interpretation is simply not necessary for salvation, so why are you arguing?

You are both obviously Christians, so you should be capable of resolving this in a godly manner, that is edifying to the Body of Christ.

Butch5
Jul 22nd 2008, 01:14 AM
AND YOU, keep quoting over and over the passages that baptismal regenerationists frequently cite, it is plainly stated in the book of Acts in Ch. 10:43-47 that as Peter spoke the words, the Holy Spirit descended on all who heard the word and baptized them into the body of Christ, as evidenced by their speaking in tongues. They were then commanded to be water baptized because, Uh Oh, here's the kicker: THE HOLY SPIRIT HAD ALREADY INDWELLED THEM, AS EVIDENCED BY THEIR SPEAKING IN TONGUES, MEANING THEY WERE SAVED, THEN PETER INSTRUCTED THEM TO BE BAPTIZED AS A TESTIMONY OF THEIR SALVATION, NOT FOR THEIR SALVATION, AS THEY ALREADY WERE SAVED. Acts 11:14-18: Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
In the above cited passages, Peter is talking about how those Peter preached to received the Holy Spirit just like Peter and the others received prior to going out and preaching the word, which is exactly what happened in Acts 10:43-47. Those who Peter preached to believed, and therefore received the Holy Spirit themselves by their faith, as evidenced by their speaking in tongues. In Acts 15:7-9, Peter mentions the gentiles heard the gospel, believed it, received the Holy Spirit by faith and were purified as a result, WITHOUT BAPTISM IN WATER. These aren't exceptions to what it says in your beloved Acts 2:38, it's reality, and reality isn't always kind.



Oh, BTW, I read that there is a slight translational discrepency in Acts 2:38, the Greek word "eis" is translated as "for," but it also means "because of," so in reality, Peter is/was more than likely saying: Repent and be baptized BECAUSE OF the remission of sins. As he later says in Acts 3:19-20, a parallel passage to Acts 2:38, Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you. Read Acts 3:19-20, then jump ahead to Acts 10:43-47, 11:14-18, and 15:7-9, and you will see that Acts 2:38 holds no water (no pun intended) in supporting that baptism is necessary for salvation. Why can't I make this any clearer? I sunk your battleship in the baptismal font.

That interpretation of "eis" is incorrect. "Eis" looks toward or forward, not backwards. In other words it looks toward the object "repent and be baptized for "eis" (toward, forward) the remission of sins.

MidnightsPaleGlow
Jul 22nd 2008, 02:11 AM
That interpretation of "eis" is incorrect. "Eis" looks toward or forward, not backwards. In other words it looks toward the object "repent and be baptized for "eis" (toward, forward) the remission of sins.

Why did we even reopen this debate? Daughter's message compelled me to cut off right there and stop the bickering, but it seems like some people really like to stir up the pot...