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cwb
Jul 13th 2008, 02:14 PM
Whenever I hear preachers preach these verses, it seems they are always talking about money.



II Cor 9:6-7
But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.


But are these verses only about money? In the context, in verse 1 it says



For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:


It seems to me that money is not the only way to minister to the saints. Also, if money were the only way to minister to the saints, some of us would not be able to do to much ministering. Couldn't this chapter also be speaking of things such as prayer, comforting a brother or sister in Christ who is hurting, or helping a brother or sister in Christ with something other than money, or even teaching the bible to the saints?

calidog
Jul 13th 2008, 02:39 PM
I think he's primarily talking about money.

Zack702
Jul 13th 2008, 03:48 PM
Couldn't this chapter also be speaking of things such as prayer, comforting a brother or sister in Christ who is hurting, or helping a brother or sister in Christ with something other than money, or even teaching the bible to the saints?

While it seams these that money is the answer the real answer is the heart...

freely ye have received, freely give.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Let what it is that you purpose in your heart to give be what you give. And let that be the spirit that you give that it lights a light and it will shine it in ways you might not see only by faith you know them.

I wonder if money itself is the answer to any spiritual problem ?

I say that God and the heart in which we purposeth things is the answer.

For example purpose in your heart that you will drink a drink to revive your spirit. And then drink and rejoice to God that by faith your purpose is accomplished. Have much respect unto your purpose and do not laugh. Drink and rejoice and go about your day with faith that you are revived.

Then if it is so that you are called and your light is so bright that you see clearly to purpose things for others. Then purpose things for others because you see clearly how to that they will not stumble out of the way but rather into the way. It might be that we see clearly to purpose money to others and this might be clear before us that the money will help then do so with faith that it will help. And give with much gladness.

However it might be that because of your personal understandings that you can clearly see how the money is not the answer and possibly that it is the problem.

ariel_jesus237
Jul 13th 2008, 03:56 PM
of course not, money can be factored in but it is not solely about money

BroRog
Jul 13th 2008, 05:32 PM
It's not about money at all. At that time, as I recall, the area of Palestine was suffering under a great drought and famine. Paul had organized a relief effort among the northern churches to help the saints living in the drought stricken areas. This was a one-time gift to be collected and given to Paul so that he might take to help those in need. The Corinthians had promised to give generously and Paul is encouraging them to keep their promise.

In this effort, Paul promises the Corinthians that God would supply them more than they need so that they might give their surplus to the relief effort. And so, he is asking them to step out in faith and trust that God will do this.

The question is: Is this a one-time promise, which applies to this particular moment in time? Or is this a promise God is making to anyone, anytime who wants to give money to help the saints?

Kuukuu
Jul 13th 2008, 05:50 PM
shall reap also bountifully.
It doesn't say what we will reap. I'm sure if we need money, or food or clothing...whatever it is we need, He will provide. Consider the Lilies of the field!

God doesn't need our money. But he wants our obedience given to him joyfully. Just like I want my kids to do the dishes...without the griping. Just because they love me and want to please me. So it's not so much the money that opens the windows of heaven, but the obedience to his word. And what comes out of those windows will be so much better than what we already have!

cwb
Jul 13th 2008, 06:21 PM
I think he's primarily talking about money.

Why's that? Is there something in the context that makes you say it is talking about money? Or do you believe that it is about money because that is what has been driven into your head year after year?

calidog
Jul 13th 2008, 07:58 PM
Why's that? Is there something in the context that makes you say it is talking about money? Or do you believe that it is about money because that is what has been driven into your head year after year?
That's exactly the way I read it year after year. Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

Deu 15:11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

Joh 12:8For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.

BroRog
Jul 13th 2008, 08:30 PM
That's exactly the way I read it year after year. Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

Deu 15:11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

Joh 12:8For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.


But notice what James DOESN'T say. He doesn't say give a brother or sister money. Doesn't he say, "give them clothing and food"?

That's why I say the issue isn't money. Money is just a means of exchange, which Paul was going to use to buy food and clothing for those Christians living in Judea.

Giving money is a good thing if you know the money will be used to by clothing, food and medicine. But just handing your pastor a dollar bill on Sunday isn't obeying the Lord's command to clothe a brother or sister in need.

calidog
Jul 13th 2008, 09:12 PM
But notice what James DOESN'T say. He doesn't say give a brother or sister money. Doesn't he say, "give them clothing and food"?

That's why I say the issue isn't money. Money is just a means of exchange, which Paul was going to use to buy food and clothing for those Christians living in Judea.

Giving money is a good thing if you know the money will be used to by clothing, food and medicine. But just handing your pastor a dollar bill on Sunday isn't obeying the Lord's command to clothe a brother or sister in need.You have to trust it to some-one or to some organization. The other option, and it's a good one, is to do exactly what Paul was doing.

cwb
Jul 14th 2008, 01:43 AM
That's exactly the way I read it year after year. Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

Deu 15:11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

Joh 12:8For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.


Yeah, and there is a whole bunch of other verses as well that speak about helping the poor. This thread is certainly not about saying we should not help the poor when we have the ability to do so. We most certainly should help the poor when we have the ability to do so. I am specifically talking about the whole chapter of II cor 9. In verse one it shows that the chapter is about "ministering to the saints". I do not believe that giving money is the only way to minister to the saints. There are alot of other ways as well.

calidog
Jul 14th 2008, 02:10 AM
Yeah, and there is a whole bunch of other verses as well that speak about helping the poor. This thread is certainly not about saying we should not help the poor when we have the ability to do so. We most certainly should help the poor when we have the ability to do so. I am specifically talking about the whole chapter of II cor 9. In verse one it shows that the chapter is about "ministering to the saints". I do not believe that giving money is the only way to minister to the saints. There are alot of other ways as well.Paul certainly seems to be alluding to providing substance for the saints, not just some esoteric spiritual help

2Co 9:5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren to go to you ahead of time, and prepare your generous gift beforehand, which you had previously promised, that it may be ready as a matter of generosity and not as a grudging obligation.
2Co 9:6 But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.
2Co 9:7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.

cwb
Jul 14th 2008, 02:49 AM
Paul certainly seems to be alluding to providing substance for the saints, not just some esoteric spiritual help

2Co 9:5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren to go to you ahead of time, and prepare your generous gift beforehand, which you had previously promised, that it may be ready as a matter of generosity and not as a grudging obligation.
2Co 9:6 But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.
2Co 9:7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.

Why do you think a gift is always "subtance"?



Eph 4:8 AND 11
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

calidog
Jul 14th 2008, 03:00 AM
Are you saying we give spiritual gifts to each other as the Holy Spirit gives gifts to us?

We can find a few reasons to give from our substance but we can come up with hundreds not to.

cwb
Jul 14th 2008, 05:28 PM
Are you saying we give spiritual gifts to each other as the Holy Spirit gives gifts to us?

We can find a few reasons to give from our substance but we can come up with hundreds not to.

Let me ask you this. If II cor 9:6-7 is about money, then the promise of the lord is that whoever gives alot of money will reap alot of money. Why then is it wrong to desire for the lord's promise to come to pass? Why is it wrong to desire to reap alot of money?

keck553
Jul 14th 2008, 09:58 PM
Interesting how some "grace" preachers will endlessly preach the 'law' is dead, except when it comes to tithing, then the 'law' is in full effect.

Zack702
Jul 14th 2008, 10:35 PM
Are you saying we give spiritual gifts to each other as the Holy Spirit gives gifts to us?

We can find a few reasons to give from our substance but we can come up with hundreds not to.

I get what your saying here and your right. It is good to give and to give to the poor and sick without measure. We reap the true reward of good when we sow good in the hearts of others.

But we sow the spirit with the word and with the spirit. Substances alone are vanity when it comes to heaven. And they are a snare to many in this way. But in another way they help the needy and thereby cause them to listen or to see. And they are good for many in this way.

Now in the literal sense the passage is talking about gifts to give as a token of charity so yes it is about money in this way.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 14th 2008, 11:11 PM
Interesting how some "grace" preachers will endlessly preach the 'law' is dead, except when it comes to tithing, then the 'law' is in full effect.:lol: sad but true...... i have seen the same.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Jul 15th 2008, 12:05 AM
Whenever I hear preachers preach these verses, it seems they are always talking about money.



But are these verses only about money? In the context, in verse 1 it says



It seems to me that money is not the only way to minister to the saints. Also, if money were the only way to minister to the saints, some of us would not be able to do to much ministering. Couldn't this chapter also be speaking of things such as prayer, comforting a brother or sister in Christ who is hurting, or helping a brother or sister in Christ with something other than money, or even teaching the bible to the saints?
In that chapter as well as 8... he is talking of giving therefore money. Context is clear.

BroRog
Jul 15th 2008, 01:37 AM
In that chapter as well as 8... he is talking of giving therefore money. Context is clear.

Well, as long as we are getting technical, the subject of the passage is NOT about giving or money. The subject of the passage is a promise the Corinthians made to collect money for famine relief. In a word, the subject of the passage is "commitment".

ProjectPeter
Jul 16th 2008, 02:25 AM
Well, as long as we are getting technical, the subject of the passage is NOT about giving or money. The subject of the passage is a promise the Corinthians made to collect money for famine relief. In a word, the subject of the passage is "commitment".
Um... alrighty. It is about commitment in giving money for relief as they were the ones that suggested it. :rolleyes: :lol:

BroRog
Jul 16th 2008, 03:30 AM
Um... alrighty. It is about commitment in giving money for relief as they were the ones that suggested it. :rolleyes: :lol:

I don't think it's funny.

ProjectPeter
Jul 16th 2008, 03:33 AM
Uh................. alrighty then! Just proof positive... you can';t please most folks. Add humor and folks don't think it's funny and go CUJO serious on you. Don't add humor and you're a jerk! Gotta love modern day Christianity!! And yeah... that truly is funny. In a very twisted sort of way. ;)

cwb
Jul 16th 2008, 03:58 AM
In that chapter as well as 8... he is talking of giving therefore money. Context is clear.

So you are saying money is the only way to give?

ProjectPeter
Jul 16th 2008, 04:02 AM
YES!!! That is what I said... MONEY is the ONLY way to give!!! :rolleyes: Please tell me you aren't being serious here?

Of course I didn't say that. Goodness... read the passage. The passage is about taking up a COLLECTION to send to Jerusalem because they were in famine and the folks needed the money. Paul couldn't rent a U-Haul and take stuff to them. Money bought them what they needed. Paul wasn't talking about a canned food drive. They had no such. Paul wasn't talking about giving up household goods to help them cook their matza bread. That wasn't needed. Paul was talking about collecting money to help those folks out.

ProjectPeter
Jul 16th 2008, 04:07 AM
Here is the passage for folks that whatever.

2 Corinthians 8

1 Now, brethren, we wish to make known to you the grace of God which has been given in the churches of Macedonia,
2 that in a great ordeal of affliction their abundance of joy and their deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality.
3 For I testify that according to their ability, and beyond their ability they gave of their own accord,
4 begging us with much entreaty for the favor of participation in the support of the saints,
5 and this, not as we had expected, but they first gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will of God.
6 Consequently we urged Titus that as he had previously made a beginning, so he would also complete in you this gracious work as well.
7 But just as you abound in everything, in faith and utterance and knowledge and in all earnestness and in the love we inspired in you, see that you abound in this gracious work also.
8 I am not speaking this as a command, but as proving through the earnestness of others the sincerity of your love also.
9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.
10 And I give my opinion in this matter, for this is to your advantage, who were the first to begin a year ago not only to do this, but also to desire to do it.
11 But now finish doing it also; that just as there was the readiness to desire it, so there may be also the completion of it by your ability.
12 For if the readiness is present, it is acceptable according to what a man has, not according to what he does not have.
13 For this is not for the ease of others and for your affliction, but by way of equality --
14 at this present time your abundance being a supply for their want, that their abundance also may become a supply for your want, that there may be equality;
15 as it is written, "HE WHO gathered MUCH DID NOT HAVE TOO MUCH, AND HE WHO gathered LITTLE HAD NO LACK."
16 ¶But thanks be to God, who puts the same earnestness on your behalf in the heart of Titus.
17 For he not only accepted our appeal, but being himself very earnest, he has gone to you of his own accord.
18 And we have sent along with him the brother whose fame in the things of the gospel has spread through all the churches;
19 and not only this, but he has also been appointed by the churches to travel with us in this gracious work, which is being administered by us for the glory of the Lord Himself, and to show our readiness,
20 taking precaution that no one should discredit us in our administration of this generous gift;
21 for we have regard for what is honorable, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.
22 And we have sent with them our brother, whom we have often tested and found diligent in many things, but now even more diligent, because of his great confidence in you.
23 As for Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker among you; as for our brethren, they are messengers of the churches, a glory to Christ.
24 Therefore openly before the churches show them the proof of your love and of our reason for boasting about you.

2 Corinthians 9

1 For it is superfluous for me to write to you about this ministry to the saints;
2 for I know your readiness, of which I boast about you to the Macedonians, namely, that Achaia has been prepared since last year, and your zeal has stirred up most of them.
3 But I have sent the brethren, that our boasting about you may not be made empty in this case, that, as I was saying, you may be prepared;
4 lest if any Macedonians come with me and find you unprepared, we (not to speak of you) should be put to shame by this confidence.
5 So I thought it necessary to urge the brethren that they would go on ahead to you and arrange beforehand your previously promised bountiful gift, that the same might be ready as a bountiful gift, and not affected by covetousness.
6 ¶Now this I say, he who sows sparingly shall also reap sparingly; and he who sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully.
7 Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;
9 as it is written, "HE SCATTERED ABROAD, HE GAVE TO THE POOR, HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ABIDES FOREVER."
10 Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food, will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness;
11 you will be enriched in everything for all liberality, which through us is producing thanksgiving to God.
12 For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God.
13 Because of the proof given by this ministry they will glorify God for your obedience to your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for the liberality of your contribution to them and to all,
14 while they also, by prayer on your behalf, yearn for you because of the surpassing grace of God in you.
15 Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!

cwb
Jul 16th 2008, 04:18 AM
YES!!! That is what I said... MONEY is the ONLY way to give!!! :rolleyes: Please tell me you aren't being serious here?

Of course I didn't say that. Goodness... read the passage. The passage is about taking up a COLLECTION to send to Jerusalem because they were in famine and the folks needed the money. Paul couldn't rent a U-Haul and take stuff to them. Money bought them what they needed. Paul wasn't talking about a canned food drive. They had no such. Paul wasn't talking about giving up household goods to help them cook their matza bread. That wasn't needed. Paul was talking about collecting money to help those folks out.

Dude, what up with the obnoxiousness and sarcasm. I merely asked you a question based on what you said. In any case, I would rather not be talked down to and that appears to be what you are doing here.

ProjectPeter
Jul 16th 2008, 04:19 AM
Dude, what up with the obnoxiousness and sarcasm. I merely asked you a question based on what you said. In any case, I would rather not be talked doiwn to and that appears to be what you are doing here.
Please show me where anyting that I said in what you quoted could possibly be taken as MONEY is the only way to give? The sarcasm was for a reason... nothing that I said could even possibly be taken that way. A person had to just go whatever to get that in what I said. Read it again and show me where you could get that in what I said? Context is context... I can't help that. It was speaking of Paul collecting money for the saints in Jerusalem. That is what the OP asked is it not?

cwb
Jul 16th 2008, 04:35 AM
Please show me where anyting that I said in what you quoted could possibly be taken as MONEY is the only way to give? The sarcasm was for a reason... nothing that I said could even possibly be taken that way. A person had to just go whatever to get that in what I said. Read it again and show me where you could get that in what I said?

Originally Posted by ProjectPeter http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1710163#post1710163)

In that chapter as well as 8... he is talking of giving therefore money. Context is clear.



You said right here he is talking of giving therefore money.

ProjectPeter
Jul 16th 2008, 04:42 AM
Originally Posted by ProjectPeter http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1710163#post1710163)


You said right here he is talking of giving therefore money.
Uh.,... that is what Paul is talking about! Read the passage. I posted both chapters. That is called CONTEXT!

Bugs Bunny
Jul 16th 2008, 04:50 AM
It could be talking about money if that was the issue at hand while it was being written at that time.

But you could look at it as, "How does this effect me in my daily life?"
With this question in mind, the chapter could be saying something different to you. A cheerful giver can be a helpful hand in more than just money. If I say to you, "Sure I will give you a ride to work or help you mow your grass today." and then turn around and grumble about it. Am I a cheerful giver of my time? Sometimes to get the attention of someone you need to relate to their biggest focus. If its money, then use money for an example. But when giving in any sense of the term we should keep this in mind:
Matthew 25:45
"He[Jesus] will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

ProjectPeter
Jul 16th 2008, 04:54 AM
It could be talking about money if that was the issue at hand while it was being written at that time.

But you could look at it as, "How does this effect me in my daily life?"
With this question in mind, the chapter could be saying something different to you. A cheerful giver can be a helpful hand in more than just money. If I say to you, "Sure I will give you a ride to work or help you mow your grass today." and then turn around and grumble about it. Am I a cheerful giver of my time? Sometimes to get the attention of someone you need to relate to their biggest focus. If its money, then use money for an example. But when giving in any sense of the term we should keep this in mind:
Matthew 25:45
"He[Jesus] will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
Folks can surely give a lot of things. Food to the hungry... the same message is applicable. Clothes to the naked... same message is applicable. No doubt of that and that is taught in many other places of Scripture. But keep in mind... this is talking about a very specific passage and that passage is speaking of funds to send to Jerusalem. Taking up an offering if you will. :)

Bugs Bunny
Jul 16th 2008, 05:01 AM
But for the same reason right? They mention this same thing in acts when the churches got started that this would be a principle. The rich were to give to the poor. At that time it was easier to transport money then it would be to transport goods.

ProjectPeter
Jul 16th 2008, 05:05 AM
But for the same reason right? They mention this same thing in acts when the churches got started that this would be a principle. The rich were to give to the poor. At that time it was easier to transport money then it would be to transport goods.
Sure. Money they could carry. Goods... not that easy. The actual context is about money no doubt. Can it mean other things... absolutely. For instance... we sold everything we had once to help a missionary in Guatemala purchase a vehicle to get them in the back country. They needed like a Four Runner that could handle the rough roads... this was shortly after the hurricane. I could have sent them a couch, chair, and tables etc but what good would that do? Not to mention the expense of getting those things there. So I sell it here.... send them the money... they get the vehicle... easy enough.

BroRog
Jul 16th 2008, 03:06 PM
That is what the OP asked is it not?

No, it isn't. The OP referred to preachers who use a passage out of context to raise money at church, i.e. tithe. The OP Question was, Is it (2Cor 9) only about money? The subtext of the question, in my opinion, was "can a preacher use a passage of scripture out of context to ask for money?"

In my view, for a preacher to take a passage out of context and use it for his own purposes is a breech of his sacred trust and a violation of his calling. His behavior then becomes the model for how his congregation should and ultimately will treat the scriptures, thus perpetuating the damage he does to God's word at the detriment to his flock.

I take this as a serious matter and don't think it is funny.

When preachers take a passage and over-generalize it beyond recognition this is a problem. To say the passage is about "money" is a very inaccurate over-generalization. And so, since folks insisted on generalizing the passage in order to find some kind of general principle I offered what I thought was the actual general principle, which you took to be something silly and followed up with an insult to Modern Day Christians (and apparently you include me among them.)

I don't know what you truly think of Modern Day Christians, but from your tone I don't think it's good. If your critique is our willingness to put opinion before fact, I might point out that this is endemic on most discussion boards I read.

At the same time, to ultimately dismiss my comments concerning the proper exegesis of the passage works contrary to that critique. If anything, as Bible students we need to set an example to others, using discipline with our interpretation.

ProjectPeter
Jul 16th 2008, 03:18 PM
No, it isn't. The OP referred to preachers who use a passage out of context to raise money at church, i.e. tithe. The OP Question was, Is it (2Cor 9) only about money? The subtext of the question, in my opinion, was "can a preacher use a passage of scripture out of context to ask for money?" Um... go back and read the first post. It wasn't about tithe but about preachers using it to talk about money. It was talking about money... again that is the actual context. Prayers... great. Comforting a hurting brother... great! All stuff we need to do. But that isn't what this passage is speaking of.



In my view, for a preacher to take a passage out of context and use it for his own purposes is a breech of his sacred trust and a violation of his calling. His behavior then becomes the model for how his congregation should and ultimately will treat the scriptures, thus perpetuating the damage he does to God's word at the detriment to his flock.

I take this as a serious matter and don't think it is funny. If you are saying that this passage is not about Paul collecting a gift for the church in Jerusalem... then you are taking it out of context. That's what he is speaking of.



When preachers take a passage and over-generalize it beyond recognition this is a problem. To say the passage is about "money" is a very inaccurate over-generalization. And so, since folks insisted on generalizing the passage in order to find some kind of general principle I offered what I thought was the actual general principle, which you took to be something silly and followed up with an insult to Modern Day Christians (and apparently you include me among them.) The OP did not give us an example of a sermon so you are over generalizing. ;) All the rest of your going on here... no clue what you are talking about. I did not insult modern day Christians... I just said it was about money. The context wasn't about a general principle. It was about taking up a collection for the folks in Jerusalem. Paul speaks of the principle of that sort of giving. You sow and you reap. He was speaking of their sowing the gift. The principle... you have now and you give generously now to help them. If a time comes when you need then they will remember that gift at a time when they are able and you will reap generously.



I don't know what you truly think of Modern Day Christians, but from your tone I don't think it's good. If your critique is our willingness to put opinion before fact, I might point out that this is endemic on most discussion boards I read.

At the same time, to ultimately dismiss my comments concerning the proper exegesis of the passage works contrary to that critique. If anything, as Bible students we need to set an example to others, using discipline with our interpretation.Uh... it's about taking up a collection. You can go on about exegesis until the cows come home... that ain't going to change the context! :lol:

BroRog
Jul 16th 2008, 07:40 PM
If you are saying that this passage is not about Paul collecting a gift for the church in Jerusalem... then you are taking it out of context. That's what he is speaking of.

I agree that the general context is about Paul's taking up a collection for famine relief. But, that is not what this passage is about. The Corinthians had already agreed to help with the famine relief and this passage in 2Cor. 9 is Paul's reminder to that effect. The context is the famine relief, but the subject is whether the Corinthians will keep their agreement or not.

So I thought it necessary to urge the brethren that they would go on ahead to you and arrange beforehand your previously promised bountiful gift, that the same might be ready as a bountiful gift, and not affected by covetousness.

This is not a passage about giving per se. The Corinthians had already promised to give to the famine relief. THIS passage is about keeping a promise and avoiding covetousness as it says above.

Again,

For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God. Because of the proof given by this ministry they will glorify God for your obedience to your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for the liberality of your contribution to them and to all, while they also, by prayer on your behalf, yearn for you because of the surpassing grace of God in you.

Paul's main concern here is not the money, not giving, but rather, his main concern is what this particular gift to the saints means in terms of the Corinthian "confession of the gospel of Christ." Had the Corinthians failed to keep their promise, Paul would suspect them, as he says earlier, that covetousness had robbed them of their salvation. The gift itself will mean a great deal to those under duress, but not giving the gift after a promise was made to give it, indicates a serious antipathy to the gospel and the rest of the saints, according to Paul.

The proper sermon, based on THIS passage should focus on our faithfulness to keep our promises, and how we ought to treat the rest of our fellow believers. THAT is the subject of this section, though the context is famine relief.


I did not insult modern day Christians... I just said it was about money.


You said, "Gotta love modern day Christianity!!" I heard this as sarcasm. Did you intend it as a compliment?

ProjectPeter
Jul 16th 2008, 08:19 PM
I agree that the general context is about Paul's taking up a collection for famine relief. But, that is not what this passage is about. The Corinthians had already agreed to help with the famine relief and this passage in 2Cor. 9 is Paul's reminder to that effect. The context is the famine relief, but the subject is whether the Corinthians will keep their agreement or not.

So I thought it necessary to urge the brethren that they would go on ahead to you and arrange beforehand your previously promised bountiful gift, that the same might be ready as a bountiful gift, and not affected by covetousness.

This is not a passage about giving per se. The Corinthians had already promised to give to the famine relief. THIS passage is about keeping a promise and avoiding covetousness as it says above.

Again,

For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God. Because of the proof given by this ministry they will glorify God for your obedience to your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for the liberality of your contribution to them and to all, while they also, by prayer on your behalf, yearn for you because of the surpassing grace of God in you.

Paul's main concern here is not the money, not giving, but rather, his main concern is what this particular gift to the saints means in terms of the Corinthian "confession of the gospel of Christ." Had the Corinthians failed to keep their promise, Paul would suspect them, as he says earlier, that covetousness had robbed them of their salvation. The gift itself will mean a great deal to those under duress, but not giving the gift after a promise was made to give it, indicates a serious antipathy to the gospel and the rest of the saints, according to Paul.

The proper sermon, based on THIS passage should focus on our faithfulness to keep our promises, and how we ought to treat the rest of our fellow believers. THAT is the subject of this section, though the context is famine relief.



You said, "Gotta love modern day Christianity!!" I heard this as sarcasm. Did you intend it as a compliment?Firstly... you are speaking about when I commented about folks complaining because I am too serious and intense and folks complaining when I try to lighten up... point... folks would complain today if they were hung with a new rope. And yep... talking about church folk. Has nothing to do with the actual discussion. Just commenting on your complaining that "it isn't funny" simply because I tried to lighten things up in the thread where it seemed to be getting a little hot. I shall put it in my memory bank though that you aren't a fan of humor.

As to the topic... it is still about giving. I hear you and there were a number of things Paul spoke about... but he is still speaking about giving money to the folks in Jerusalem. He calls it a ministry to them and he repeats that at the end of chapter 9.

2 Corinthians 9:12 For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God.
13 Because of the proof given by this ministry they will glorify God for your obedience to your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for the liberality of your contribution to them and to all,
14 while they also, by prayer on your behalf, yearn for you because of the surpassing grace of God in you.
15 Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!

There are many lessons in there about this act of contributing to the need of those folks in Jerusalem. But the main point is take up that offering like you said you were going to do. ;)