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Stefen
Jul 13th 2008, 09:52 PM
It seems to me that the bible has become our main source for a relationship with God and our theology hand book. If Paul, James, John, and Peter would have known before hand how everyone would theologize and argue over their letters, I wonder if they would have written things differently.

It is my impression that the writings of the Apostles where just maps pointing to a treasure. I feel like we have been all about the treasure map and not what it points to. Don't we have the same treasure that they were speaking of. Don't we have they same God living in us. Shouldn't our life be "Inspired" just as their's were? Should we have to go to the bible as a guide book or a map all the time or should we live by the spirit of God. Shouldn't we have the truth in us as well. Shouldn't we be truth?

Joey Porter
Jul 13th 2008, 10:10 PM
This is a good point you make. The bible itself is not "The Word of God." It is a part of the Word of God.

And you are right. We should have the Word in us. Because we know that the bible calls Christ Himself "The Word of God." And if we have His Spirit in us, we should uphold that Word even above the bible. What good is the bible to us even we don't have His spirit to help us understand it?

20,000 differing and conflicting denominations in the church world, all of whom use the same book, should be enough to show us that the bible alone is not sufficient for understanding Yahweh's truths.


I want to present to you another take on this. In all of creation, what exists that has not been spoken into existence by Yahweh? Everything that exists is spoken by Him. Therefore, everything is, in fact, the Word of God. If we have the eyes to see it.

Looking at life this way will change everything about the way we understand the Creator, and His creation for that matter.

timmyb
Jul 13th 2008, 11:26 PM
The WORD became flesh and dwelt among us!... without Jesus, the Bible is just a book... we need to connect with the fact that the Bible is to lead us into a deeper relationship with the man Christ Jesus... if it's not doing that, then all we are doing is analyzing a book...

ConqueredbyLove
Jul 14th 2008, 12:06 AM
Shouldn't we be truth?

Can you please explain what you mean by that statement to me?

Thanks...

Kahtar
Jul 14th 2008, 12:33 AM
We of coure should not make the Word of God our idol.
But, the Bible does have value. Without it, we would not have faith.
(Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God).
It is the 'measuring scale' by which everything is measured.
Yes, the creation speaks to us. Unfortunately, we don't hear very well, nor do we interpret what we hear very well, AND, part of that creation includes the fallen angels whose purpose is to deceive us and destroy us, and who will lead us astray, even using (or rather misusing) the Word to do so.

Thus, the need for weighing EVERYTHING according to the Written Word. Yes, we all have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, if we are indeed alive in Christ, but, how many of us are able to hear the Spirit so well that we have no need of the Scriptures? I don't know of anyone................

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 14th 2008, 12:56 AM
I look at the scriptures as The Word of God, as well as the Biography of God and His Son, as well as the apostles who all left an impression of their way of life, likes and dislikes and love and grace.
The Bible contains the Word of God, but until you have the Spirit it is not a living Word.
I see the Bible and the Word therein as a light an example, as well as the guildeline/instruction by which we should measure our hearts and live.
Again, this only is possible with the help of the Holy Spirit who is our guide into all truth, meaning he will reveal himself to us, and give us all understanding.

Shalom,
Tanja

Stefen
Jul 14th 2008, 04:46 PM
We of coure should not make the Word of God our idol.
But, the Bible does have value. Without it, we would not have faith.
(Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God).
It is the 'measuring scale' by which everything is measured.
Yes, the creation speaks to us. Unfortunately, we don't hear very well, nor do we interpret what we hear very well, AND, part of that creation includes the fallen angels whose purpose is to deceive us and destroy us, and who will lead us astray, even using (or rather misusing) the Word to do so.
Yes we deffinately need the scriptures to hear the message and then to build us up in our faith.


Thus, the need for weighing EVERYTHING according to the Written Word. Yes, we all have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, if we are indeed alive in Christ, but, how many of us are able to hear the Spirit so well that we have no need of the Scriptures? I don't know of anyone................

Shouldn't our thoughts and words become just as authoritive as the bible by the spirit of God?

Stefen
Jul 14th 2008, 04:51 PM
Can you please explain what you mean by that statement to me?

Thanks...

Our very lives should speak vilumes of truth. Jesus says he is the truth, and he also says if the truth is in us it will set us free. Just as Jesus is truth we should be also. The truth that comes from him should be living in us. The words we speak should be truth, the things we do, our thought's and feeling's.

Stefen
Jul 14th 2008, 04:56 PM
I am not down playing the bible's value. I love the Bible. What I am trying to say is that the writings of the new testament are mainly milk. There is a spiritual meat to move further into; not to leave the bible into the dust, but to come to a point where we and the Father and our Lord are one.

Stefen
Jul 14th 2008, 04:57 PM
This is a good point you make. The bible itself is not "The Word of God." It is a part of the Word of God.

And you are right. We should have the Word in us. Because we know that the bible calls Christ Himself "The Word of God." And if we have His Spirit in us, we should uphold that Word even above the bible. What good is the bible to us even we don't have His spirit to help us understand it?

20,000 differing and conflicting denominations in the church world, all of whom use the same book, should be enough to show us that the bible alone is not sufficient for understanding Yahweh's truths.


I want to present to you another take on this. In all of creation, what exists that has not been spoken into existence by Yahweh? Everything that exists is spoken by Him. Therefore, everything is, in fact, the Word of God. If we have the eyes to see it.

Looking at life this way will change everything about the way we understand the Creator, and His creation for that matter.

Yes, if we were all truly being led by the spirit of God then we would all be one in unity: one faith, one lord.

threebigrocks
Jul 14th 2008, 05:00 PM
Shouldn't we be truth?

Jesus is the the Truth. We are not. To claim that we are truth is a deception.

We cannot seperate scripture from the leading of the Spirit who gives to us all knowledge and understanding. Without one, neither are any good. It's is by the Spirit who will guide us into all truth. The truth does not come from ourselves but outside of ourselves.


Shouldn't our thoughts and words become just as authoritive as the bible by the spirit of God?

Only if they are scripture and we are not tossing out things that are not of God and unscriptural. That is what lands a great many in trouble and dare I say in danger of loosing their soul of salvation.


Our very lives should speak vilumes of truth. Jesus says he is the truth, and he also says if the truth is in us it will set us free. Just as Jesus is truth we should be also. The truth that comes from him should be living in us. The words we speak should be truth, the things we do, our thought's and feeling's.

Yes, we should be a living witness to Who it is we follow. The truth does not originate with us, but is given through the Spirit together with scripture. And our words should be truth, you are correct there. But how are we to know the truth if we don't read it and allow ourselves to be be taught?

To maybe make things a bit more clear - are you saying that we ought to be able to live without scripture if we have the Spirit?

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 14th 2008, 05:05 PM
Jesus is the the Truth. We are not. To claim that we are truth is a deception.
But we should have the truth within us.
Not to derail the thread. :P

Tanja

Metadyjital
Jul 14th 2008, 05:07 PM
I believe the Word of God is just that the WORD OF GOD. While I do not deify it - I do believe that it is inspired, inerrant and the truth of whom God is, and what God is. I also believe that truth can exist outside of the Word, but not in opposition to it...

In that manner there could be other works that God inspired, however, I would hold the bible as the authority or the rule by which other works, text and readings are measured.

It is an ocean of information, and the harder question might be is each verse literal, are there text that must be spiritually discerned - do some contain more esoteric meanings and so on? it is an interesting thought :idea:

threebigrocks
Jul 14th 2008, 05:17 PM
But we should have the truth within us.
Not to derail the thread. :P

Tanja

Not denying that at all Tanja, just saying that the truth does not originate with us.

Stefen
Jul 14th 2008, 05:22 PM
Not denying that at all Tanja, just saying that the truth does not originate with us.

I said in #8 "The truth that comes from him should be living in us."

Lets not derail the thread.

Stefen
Jul 14th 2008, 05:24 PM
To maybe make things a bit more clear - are you saying that we ought to be able to live without scripture if we have the Spirit?

Read my post #9

AliveinChristDave
Jul 14th 2008, 05:31 PM
Our very lives should speak vilumes of truth. Jesus says he is the truth, and he also says if the truth is in us it will set us free. Just as Jesus is truth we should be also. The truth that comes from him should be living in us. The words we speak should be truth, the things we do, our thought's and feeling's.


Truth will always lead to life. Jesus Christ is the Way, Truth and Life.
It's difficult to put this is words that don't confuse, but when the truth comes from Christ, which is Christ living in us, we become the living Word of God. Just as He is we are.
The life Paul lived was Christ's life in him. Paul spoke the words of God because He was the Living Word of God, totally transformed into His image. As Christ is so was he.
The Bible is so much more than a rule book or road map. It's the living Christ. We should "let the Word of God dwell in us richly."

Stefen
Jul 14th 2008, 05:35 PM
Truth will always lead to life. Jesus Christ is the Way, Truth and Life.
It's difficult to put this is words that don't confuse, but when the truth comes from Christ, which is Christ living in us, we become the living Word of God. Just as He is we are.
The life Paul lived was Christ's life in him. Paul spoke the words of God because He was the Living Word of God, totally transformed into His image. As Christ is so was he.
The Bible is so much more than a rule book or road map. It's the living Christ. We should "let the Word of God dwell in us richly."

This is part of the point I am trying to make, but it is a hard concept for people to understand.

timmyb
Jul 14th 2008, 06:07 PM
The Bible is the way to get to know the man Jesus...

Let's look at a few verses that talk about the word of God..

Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

the entire chapter of Psalm 119... excellent

John 1..

the Bible says time and time again what the word of God is and what it's like and what it's effect is on people... without the spirit the word of God has no power at all

Zack702
Jul 14th 2008, 06:16 PM
It seems to me that the bible has become our main source for a relationship with God and our theology hand book. If Paul, James, John, and Peter would have known before hand how everyone would theologize and argue over their letters, I wonder if they would have written things differently.

It is my impression that the writings of the Apostles where just maps pointing to a treasure. I feel like we have been all about the treasure map and not what it points to. Don't we have the same treasure that they were speaking of. Don't we have they same God living in us. Shouldn't our life be "Inspired" just as their's were? Should we have to go to the bible as a guide book or a map all the time or should we live by the spirit of God. Shouldn't we have the truth in us as well. Shouldn't we be truth?

Yea I think our main focus should be each other. What I mean is we should treat each other equal. And yea I agree with all that you said I would say yes.

But the entire bible is a bit complex in places (as we are). Thats why I like to post here to find out how other people navigate it (sarcasm).

I personally don't really look at the bible as a guide book or a map except that I try to apply it to my thinking. Like sowing seeds. And thats when it becomes a theology handbook.
A sower of seeds sows with the purpose of a harvest.
What then does the owner of the farm reap?
The owner reaps the good of the field.
And the bad is compost.

The treasure is our calling.
And if you ask me we are called to sow good in each others hearts and water it and that is Jesus Christ with or without names and titles.

But this is a bible chat forum after all so we can expect a lot of different outlooks and things.

threebigrocks
Jul 14th 2008, 08:23 PM
I am not down playing the bible's value. I love the Bible. What I am trying to say is that the writings of the new testament are mainly milk. There is a spiritual meat to move further into; not to leave the bible into the dust, but to come to a point where we and the Father and our Lord are one.


Read my post #9

The writings of the New Testiment are not simply milk! They are as rich and deep as any other part of scripture. Deep enough to where they have no bottom. The knowledge available to us through scripture is endless.

There is no point at which we can look at scripture and say "Well, I've got that all down pat! Let's move on..." That is why I asked for clarification Stefen, because it sure seems as though you are saying that scripture will only "get us so far."

Joey Porter
Jul 14th 2008, 08:48 PM
I agree very much with Stefen on a lot of these points.

As I said earlier, everything in all creation is spoken into existence by Yahweh, therefore, everything is the Word of God. We can learn nearly as much about Him just from observing creation as we can by reading the scriptures. But we learn the most when we combine what we read in scripture with what we see in the creation all around us. They help to interpret and further explain one another (all by way of His Spirit).

Yahweh is speaking through everything and everyone, if we have the ears to hear.

I also agree with Stefen pertaining to the NT writings, particularly the epistles. I think there is a lot that can be learned from them, but I feel the true hidden knowledge of the ways of Yahweh is contained in the OT, as well as the gospels, and Revelation. Yahweh speaks to man through riddles and parables. And those books that I mentioned do likewise.

I also want to say something about the "inerrancy" of the bible. While I do believe the scriptures (there IS a difference) are inerrant as they were orignially inspired, we really can't say that the "bible" is inerrant.

My question would be, which bible is inerrant? If it were literally inerrant, why would there be so many differing versions of the bible that all differ in slight (and some not so slight) ways? If it were literally inerrant, then why do many or most bibles contain a page at the front from the publishers stating that it is not perfectly translated? The very people who make the bibles confess that they are not inerrant!

I'm not saying that our bibles are totally butchered and way off the mark, but when we consider the defintion of "inerrant," how can we use that word to describe a book in which the very people who produce it claim that it is not?

See, it is Christ the Truth, He who is the true Word of God, whom we should have within us, who should cause us to ask these types of uncomfortable questions.

Seeking absolute Truth (which is the equivalent of seeking Christ) is not a comfortable process, but those who keep seeking will eventually be rewarded.

Those who hunger and thirst for absolute Truth, who is Christ, should ask these types of questions along the way in their journey, instead of just going with the generally accepted blanket statement "The bible is inerrant."

This is why I hold Christ within us as the Word of God, even above the "bible." Christ is perfect and inerrant. Our bibles are not quite so. They may be close! But inerrant means inerrant, and our bibles are not.

Stefen
Jul 14th 2008, 09:15 PM
The writings of the New Testiment are not simply milk! They are as rich and deep as any other part of scripture. Deep enough to where they have no bottom. The knowledge available to us through scripture is endless.

There is no point at which we can look at scripture and say "Well, I've got that all down pat! Let's move on..." That is why I asked for clarification Stefen, because it sure seems as though you are saying that scripture will only "get us so far."

I am not saying scripture will only get us so far but that there is a point that the scriptures are to help us reach.

seamus414
Jul 14th 2008, 09:30 PM
We of coure should not make the Word of God our idol.
But, the Bible does have value. Without it, we would not have faith.
(Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God).


I disagree. We have faith because of Jesus, his Apostolic witness, and the Church he founded. None of these things are dependant upon the Bible and were the Bible not to exist, the Faith still would exist and be powerful. The Bible is, next to Jesus, perhaps God's greatest gift to mankind, yet, it is not, by any means, the source, cause or root of the Faith.

seamus414
Jul 14th 2008, 09:33 PM
20,000 differing and conflicting denominations in the church world, all of whom use the same book, should be enough to show us that the bible alone is not sufficient for understanding Yahweh's truths.


Agreed. This is why Christ gave us His Church and the Wisdom of the Holy Spirit. Sadly far too many Christians have rejected His Church.

seamus414
Jul 14th 2008, 09:35 PM
The Bible is the way to get to know the man Jesus...

The Bible is a way, perhaps the most typical or important way, but still only a way.

Stefen
Jul 15th 2008, 04:33 PM
Do you not agree that there is a place of maturity that the writings are pointing to?

threebigrocks
Jul 15th 2008, 05:07 PM
I am not saying scripture will only get us so far but that there is a point that the scriptures are to help us reach.

And in order to reach we need to know what we are reaching for. That means we have knowledge and wisdom that there is more. That knowledge and wisdom will come from scripture as revealed by the Spirit through faith.


Do you not agree that there is a place of maturity that the writings are pointing to?

There is, we just won't know it here in this world. ;)

Stefen
Jul 15th 2008, 05:17 PM
And in order to reach we need to know what we are reaching for. That means we have knowledge and wisdom that there is more. That knowledge and wisdom will come from scripture as revealed by the Spirit through faith.

Deffinately


There is, we just won't know it here in this world. ;)

Thats the kind of thinking that keeps you stuck.

threebigrocks
Jul 15th 2008, 05:22 PM
Thats the kind of thinking that keeps you stuck.

For now we see through a glass dimly...

Our mortal minds and fleshy bodies cannot possibly grasp all things of an eternal and spiritual God. Once we are resurrected and given a full spiritual self - we will know. Here and now we can know an awful lot, I won't disagree, but to say we can know it all seems to say that we can be like God now. We never will be. And to be like God and want it - look what it did for Eve and Adam in the garden. Didn't work out so well did it? ;)

Toymom
Jul 15th 2008, 05:32 PM
The Bible Is God's Breath




1. The Bible is Godís breath,

The essence of His Person; (2 Timothy 3:16)

Godís speaking out through men

Borne by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1:21)

The Bible is Godís speaking

In the prophets, in the Son. (Hebrews 1:1-2)

The Bible is the Holy Spiritís

Revelation. (John 16:13)




2. The Bible testifies
Concerning the Lord Jesus. (John 5:39)
The Bible makes men wise,
Wise unto salvation. (2 Timothy 3:15)
The Bible causes men
To be regenerated. (1 Peter 1:23)
Our spiritual milk, (1 Peter 2:2)
Our bread of life, (Matthew 4:4)
It makes us all complete. (2 Timothy 3:17)


Yes, we also have the living word of God within us if we are born again Christians. But that does not negate or make useless the written word.
We need three things to agree - the written word - logos - the Bible, the living and active spoken word of the Lord to us - rhema, and the agreement of the other members of the Body of Christ.

We should not rely on any one of those without the others.

seamus414
Jul 15th 2008, 05:40 PM
Do you not agree that there is a place of maturity that the writings are pointing to?

There certainly is, but to assume that place of maturity renders the Bible irrelevant, insufficient, inapplicable, or the like is a big mistake I think. Instead of analogizing the Bible as milk I think a more apt allegatory (in this instance) is more like fuel. The fuel is useful for both a beginner car, a jalopy, a putt-putt, as well as race car and high performance sports cars.

Stefen
Jul 15th 2008, 05:52 PM
There certainly is, but to assume that place of maturity renders the Bible irrelevant, insufficient, inapplicable, or the like is a big mistake I think. Instead of analogizing the Bible as milk I think a more apt allegatory (in this instance) is more like fuel. The fuel is useful for both a beginner car, a jalopy, a putt-putt, as well as race car and high performance sports cars.

I never said that it makes it irrelevant. What I am saying is that we spend all of this time in researching and debating doctrines instead of moving forward into the fullness of the Spirit. We spend to much time in the things that don't matter rather than the things that do.

The apostles didn't write all of their letters and writings so that we could become thelogians, they wrote them so that we could become children of God: mature children of God.

Stefen
Jul 15th 2008, 05:58 PM
For now we see through a glass dimly...

Our mortal minds and fleshy bodies cannot possibly grasp all things of an eternal and spiritual God. Once we are resurrected and given a full spiritual self - we will know. Here and now we can know an awful lot, I won't disagree, but to say we can know it all seems to say that we can be like God now. We never will be. And to be like God and want it - look what it did for Eve and Adam in the garden. Didn't work out so well did it? ;)

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Does this not contradict what you are saying?

Mograce2U
Jul 15th 2008, 06:11 PM
I never said that it makes it irrelevant. What I am saying is that we spend all of this time in researching and debating doctrines instead of moving forward into the fullness of the Spirit. We spend to much time in the things that don't matter rather than the things that do.

The apostles didn't write all of their letters and writings so that we could become thelogians, they wrote them so that we could become children of God: mature children of God.Here where the goal of that maturity lies:

(1 John 4:18 KJV) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

This what our study of scripture should guide us into as we begin to fully comprehend the next verse and allow this truth to govern our life:

(1 John 4:19 KJV) We love him, because he first loved us.

When we find ourselves walking in truth and love towards those who are within as well as those who are without, we will have discovered that the truth of God and His love has brought us to the desired goal. It is then that we will have put away the childish things which divert our attention and cause strife amongst us, when love is all that we concern ourselves with.

threebigrocks
Jul 16th 2008, 12:11 AM
I never said that it makes it irrelevant. What I am saying is that we spend all of this time in researching and debating doctrines instead of moving forward into the fullness of the Spirit. We spend to much time in the things that don't matter rather than the things that do.

The apostles didn't write all of their letters and writings so that we could become thelogians, they wrote them so that we could become children of God: mature children of God.

Okay, now THAT makes things much more clear!:)

I would have to agree that we can get so wrapped up in the the theology and we forget sound doctrine which we should base living the faith in through the Spirit.

We may be getting somewhere now! :D