PDA

View Full Version : Information Biblical Teaching of Wine



faithfulfriend
Jul 14th 2008, 02:35 AM
(I don't expect much response, just typed this study up to stir your minds. I trust it proves to be enlightening) :idea:

Unless one has an honest heart, no amount of statistical evidence or scripture will change their mind against alcoholic beverages. The demon of drink is just as alive as it has ever been. I have known people to staunchly defend alcohol and their right to use it as they please. The love of drink blinded their minds. Sound reasoning is no where to be found in them. Over the years, the product line of alcoholic beverages presented to the public has expanded and flourished. Regardless of the form however, some things have not changed. It continues to be destructive to health, a major factor in traffic fatalities, immorality, and a focal point in a large percentage of divorces. One only has to look around to observe its fruit.

Public opinion has varied widely over the years. At the beginning of the 1900’s, the majority cried out against it. The Women’s Christian Temperance Union was formed to stamp it out. Public sentiment was swayed to the point that Congress voted into law the Eighteenth Amendment, outlawing the manufacture and sale of alcohol. This happened in 1917. By 1919, all of the States had ratified it. Sad to say, it only lasted for fourteen years. In 1933, Congress overturned the Eighteenth Amendment by passing the Twenty-first Amendment. In a recent Gallup Poll, people were asked if they would be in favor of legislation banning alcohol again. Of those asked, 80% said they would be against such a law. These statistics become even more disturbing when we consider that the majority of the U.S. populations profess some form of Christianity. It is also interesting to note that most of the sales of alcohol take place over the Christmas season.

What is needed is a strong pronouncement against alcohol—a clear call to abstinence. There are several reasons one might have a weak stand against it. Human reasoning tells most people to just use it with moderation. Do not drink it in excess. The medical profession even goes so far as to tell people that a little can be good for you. Another reason is a false religion is blind to it. Babylon herself has a cup in her hand. People get spiritually drunk and they lose sound judgment and reasoning. What is important to all is what the Bible actually teaches concerning this—which leads me to a very important reason people have difficulty in standing against it. Within the Bible there are seemingly inconsistencies concerning our subject. In both the Old Testament and New Testament are texts that can be difficult to explain and bring into harmony with the teaching on total abstinence. It is also good to remember that in the Old Testament, God winked at some things. Let us be clear on this point: the Word of God does not contradict itself. The Bible does not present a duel teaching.

One last reason for a weak pronouncement against the use of alcoholic beverages has been the notion that grape juice could not be kept fresh for long periods of time and that most of what they drank was fermented because of the aging process. But according to different ancient historians, there were a number of methods used to keep juice fresh and unfermented. Probably the most popular was boiling down of large quantities to a thick syrup substance that was then poured into jars and sealed. The boiling itself removed any alcohol. This syrup could be stored for long periods of time without fermenting. When they desired, they would simply mix a portion of the soup with water and return it to a fresh juice.

To understand what the Bible teaches concerning this, we must look beyond the English words such as “wine” to the Hebrew and Greek words from which they were translated. Our first word we wish to consider is the Hebrew word…



Yayin

The Hebrew word that is used most often and translated “wine” in the Old Testament is yayin. This word appears 137 times and is translated “wine” in 133 instances. Yayin is a generic term in its use. Not every time does it refer to fermented wine. Likewise, neither does it always refer to the unfermented juice.

Let us give a few examples. Noah became drunk on yayin (Genesis 9:21). Lot was drunk on yayin and unaware of his incestuous relationship with his two daughters (Genesis 19:31-35). The wine that is a mocker is yayin (Proverbs 20:1). Proverbs 23:31 “Look not thou upon the wine [yayin] when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.” Kings were forbidden to drink yayin when they did he service of God in the tabernacle (Leviticus 10:9; Ezekiel 44:21). These are all obviously referring to the fermented product.

On the other hand, let us cite a few examples of yayin as being obviously unfermented. God gives man “wine [yayin] that maketh glad the heart of man…” (Psalms 104:15). Wine (yayin) was used as a drink offering unto the Lord. Numbers 15:10, “And thou shalt bring for a drink offering half a hin of wine, for an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the Lord.”
According to the best Greek-Hebrew lexicographers, Yayin comes from an unused root that involves some type of turbulence or agitation. The bubbling effervescent action of fermentation comes first to mind. However, according to them, it can have three distinct meanings. First is a foaming turbulence, caused by the freshly pressed grape juice as it flows from the winepress into the vat or container. Second is the movement caused by the fermentation. Third is the boiling turbulence when the juice is reduced to thick syrup for storage. Thus, we have a word that can be used to refer from the fresh grape juice to an intoxicating drink.

Some may object, arguing that Yayin is spoken of as being good on some occasions and bad on others because of its quantity of consumption and not its quality. This would be the defense of moderation advocates. However, God said for us to not even look upon, let alone drink in moderation, the fermented product. Proverbs 23:31-32, “Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.” The moving referred to here is the fermentation process. The teaching here is total abstinence. Daniel believed in total abstinence from alcohol. Daniel 1:8, “But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion o the king’s mean, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.” Daniel however, did not refuse all yayin, just the king’s kind. The king’s wine was bad or fermented yayin. “I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.”

It is obvious from the previous evidence, that where yayin is translated wine in the Old Testament, the context must be taken into consideration for its proper meaning. Our next word we wish to consider is…



Tiyrowsh

The word appears 39 times in the Hebrew text. It is translated “wine” 27 time, “new wine” 11 times, and “sweet wine” one time. Strong’s Concordance has it as “must or fresh grape-juice (as just squeezed out); new, or sweet wine. Tiyrowsh includes all kinds of sweet juices, fresh and new, and does not include fermented wine. The word “must” simply means young, fresh, new, the juice of grapes.

Tiyrowsh is even used to refer to the juice before it is pressed from the grapes. Isaiah 65:8, “Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine is found in the cluster….” Furthermore, this word can also refer to grapes harvested, gathered in, and eaten (See Deuteronomy 11:14; 12:17). Four times the tithe of the wine is mentioned; each time it is tiyrowsh. God intended for their tithe of wine to be fresh, unfermented juice. The “wine, which cheereth God and man” is tiyrowsh (Judges 9:13). TO say that this refers to fermented wine would be ridiculous.



Shekar

The third most frequently used word in the Hebrew for wine or liquor is shekar. It appears 22 times in the Old Testament and is translated “strong drink” 21 times, and “drunkard” the other. Strong’s defines it as “intensely alcoholic liquor.” Little more explanation is needed for this word and its translation. Shekar is spoken of in nearly every reference in a denouncing tone.



Aciyc

This word appears five times in the Old Testament and is nearly identical in the meaning with tiyrowsh. It means must or fresh grape-juice, just trodden out. It is translated juice, new wine, or sweet wine.



Chamar and Chemer

These words are similar in some ways to the Yayin in that context must be taken into consideration. They are translated as wine, pure, and red wine. They are derived from a root meaning to “boil up, hence to ferment, and to glow with redness.” Like yayin, this boiling can point to three meanings. The movement associated with fermentation, boiling from being heated, and the foaming caused from the juice of pressed grapes as they flow into a vat or container. This means that these words can refer to fresh juice and fermented. The “wine” found in Ezra 6:9 and 7:22 obviously refers to the unfermented juice, while the wine king Belshazzar served to his drunken party Dainel 5, verses 1, 2, 4, and 23 was fermented.

So far, we have examined only Hebrew words of the Old Testament in connection with our study. We have set forth only those of the greatest importance. There are other minor words, which we have omitted from consideration. Now, let us turn our attention to the New Testament and its teaching. The New Testament has only a few words from the Greek language that we will consider. The first is…



Oinos

This word appears in 23 verses in the New Testament. It is the most important and frequently used word in the New Testament concerning “wine.” Strong’s Concordance connects it with the Hebrew Yayin and translates it as wine (figurative, or literal). Oinos like Yayin, is a generic term referring to both fresh juice and fermented drink alike. Furthermore, let us point out a very important fact concerning the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament. The Septuagint was the Old Testament translated from Hebrew into the Greek language. This was done several hundred years before Christ and would have been the Bible from which Jesus read. The translators of the Septuagint used the Greek word Oinos as a very general term. When translating, all but one of the Hebrew words we have discussed was translated as Oinos. The one word that was not translated as Oinos was shekar—strong drink. In this instance, the Greek sikera was used. The point is, whether the substance referred to was fresh grape juice, or fermented drink, the Jews used the Greek word Oinos when writing it. Paul, Matthew, Luke, and other New Testament writers chose this word when referring to fresh or new juice. Oinos equally could be used in connection to the syrup commonly used as well as intoxicating beverages.

However, the important question is, did Jesus ever drink or give to drink a fermented beverage? Many religious people seem to think so, but what does the inspired Word of God teach us? This is where many critical thinking people, skeptics, and the like will surely disagree. Three things must be remembered when considering supposedly contradicting texts: First, when rightly divided, the Bible and its teachings will never contradict itself. Furthermore, the Word of God and the Spirit of God will always agree. The Holy Spirit will never tell you to do contrary to the teachings of the Bible. Secondly, Jesus was sinless. Christ “knew no sin” ((I Corinthians 5:21); “did no sin” (I Peter 2:22); and was “without sin.” Last of all, we must keep in mind that Jesus was the Word of God incarnate. John 1:14, “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

Some will argue the point that Jesus admitted to drinking fermented wine in Luke 7:33-34 when He said, “For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!” Matthew’s account of this is nearly identical. But neither account applies to the word Oinos (wine) to Christ. Jesus did not admit to drinking wine. Even if it did use the word, it must be remembered that it is a generic term and does not necessarily refer to fermented wine. By this statement, Jesus was simply pointing out the difference between John and Himself. John did not drink any wine (Oinos)—Jesus did. This wine (Oinos), we would have to assume was unfermented. It would have to be, to agree with the whole Word of God. Another important observation is that in reality, these were not Christ’s own words. They were what the people were saying about Him: “…and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!” These were the words of the people. If Jesus was saying this of Himself, then the same would have to hold true of what He said of John, “He hath a devil.” In fact, neither statement holds true. They were just the sentiments of the people.

faithfulfriend
Jul 14th 2008, 02:37 AM
Christ was a King. Matthew 2:2, “Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews?” John 18:37, “Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born…” Jesus was the Word made flesh. What did the Word tell us about kings drinking fermented wine? Proverbs 31:4-5, “It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink [Yayin] wine; nor for princes strong drink. Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.”


Not only was Christ King, but He was also a priest. Hebrews 3:1, “…consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus.” Earlier we showed that the law forbade the priests to drink fermented wine while executing the priest’s office. (See Leviticus 10:9, Ezekiel 44:21). Since Jesus was priest and King while on earth, as well as now on the right hand of the Father, could He do that which the law forbade others to do? Jesus’ own words declare that He came not to destroy the law but to fulfill.


Another source of confusion has been the marriage feast in Cana of Galilee found in John 2:-11. Here is recorded Jesus’ first miracle in turning water into wine. Did Jesus put His approval on the use of alcohol beverages? Did He, as some suppose, supply the wedding guests with fermented wine? If so, He not only approved of drinking fermented wine, but encouraged drunkenness as well. This may seem to be a bold statement, but that is the inevitable conclusion if it was fermented. Let us look at some facts. Prior to this miracle, they had been drinking wine or oinos (Verse 3). As already shown, oinos can refer to syrup, fresh juice, or fermented wine. However, for the sake of illustrating its absurdity, let us assume the position that they had already drank fermented wine. From verse ten, it appears that they had already drunk freely, and by now would be on the brink of being intoxicated. Jesus then turned six waterpots of water into wine. These held two to three firkins of water each. A firkin is the equivalent of nine gallons. If each pot held two firkins, it would have yielded a total of 108 gallons. If there were 100 guests at this wedding, Jesus would have been supplying each with over a gallon of fermented drink. Christ would have been guilty of encouraging drunkenness. This is hardly conceivable of the sinless Son of God. Habakkuk 2:15, “Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!”


What actually happened? The wedding guests had been drinking fresh grape juice and Jesus made more. Furthermore, the governor of the feast declared the latter to be the better. If it had been alcoholic all along, his taste would have been affected and he would not have been able to tell the difference.


Before we consider the “wine” used in the Lord’s Supper, let us first examine the Passover meal. There are two reasons for this. First, Jesus partook of the Passover on more than one occasion. Secondly, when He instituted the Lord’s Supper, He used items leftover from the Passover meal just ended.


The Passover described in Exodus 12 makes no mention of the use of wine or any beverage directly. Our attention however, is centered on the use of three Hebrew words: seor (leaven), chametz (leavened), and matstsah (unleavened). According to Strong’s Concordance seor means barm or yeast (as swelling by fermentation). Barm, according to Webster’s 1828 dictionary is a yeast; the scum rising upon beer, or other malt liquors, when fermenting, and used as leaven in bread to make it swell, causing it to be softer, lighter, and more delicate. It may be used in liquors to make them ferment or work. Chametz means fermented and is translated leavened. Exodus 12:15 expressly prohibits the use of chametz or seor. “Seven days shall ye eat unleavened [matstsah] bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven [seor] out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened [chametz] bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.”


Young’s Analytical Concordance says that chametz is anything leavened or fermented. According to this, we could easily substitute the word fermented for the word leavened. Exodus 12:19-20, “Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened [or fermented], even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land. Ye shall eat nothing leavened [or fermented]; in all your habitations shall ye eat unleavened bread.”


Since Jesus knew and kept the law, there is no other possible answer but that Jesus kept the Passover and instituted the Lord’s Supper using unfermented grape juice.


When examining the accounts of the Lord’s Supper it is interesting to note that the word wine (oinos) or any other term that might be mistaken for a fermented beverage was seemingly omitted on purpose. (See Matthew 26:27-29; Mark 14:23-25; Luke 22:17-20; I Corinthians 11:23-28). Instead, the writers of these accounts used the words “cup,” and “fruit of the vine.”


I Timothy 5:23 is another seemingly controversial scripture. “Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for the stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.” Paul was not telling Timothy to quit drinking water and to switch to “wine.” Rather, he was telling him to no longer drink water exclusively. Some commentaries suggest that the alkalinity of the water in those parts were cause for stomach aliments to those who drank water only. Many of the Greeks and Romans were accustomed o mingling wine with their water. One part wine to two or three parts water. This was to offset the water quality problem. It seems that perhaps Timothy was one o those with a weak stomach, and Paul was giving some advice. Paul used the word oinos (wine) in this verse. No indication of whether fresh or fermented wine is given. Paul was not a physician, neither did he go about to practice medicine; he simply knew the qualities of grapes and their juice with alkaline water. This does not give place for use of alcohol for medicinal purposes. Health and cooking are not reasons to go to a store and buy alcohol. The Bible also tells us to “Abstain from all appearance of evil” (I Thessalonians 5:22). Whatever explanation of this scripture we accept, it must agree with the teachings of the Word of God as a whole.


Deacons and the aged women are not to be given to much wine (I Timothy 3:8; Titus 2:3). These scriptures are not teaching moderation in drinking, but sobriety. Any other explanation would not agree with the Bible teaching of abstinence.


There is one more Greek word worth mentioning—Oxos. This word means vinegar or sour wine. This word is important because of its connection with Jesus’ death on the cross. According to the four gospels, He was apparently offered vinegar to drink twice while on the cross. The first time He rejected it, but not because of it being alcoholic. Mark 15:23, “And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not” (also see Matthew 27:34, and Luke 23:36). This first instance, it was mixed with narcotic—myrrh or gall, to dull the suffering and pains of the cross. This, Jesus rejected so that He could suffer for us fully, and pay the price for our atonement. The second time He apparently received it. Jesus had cried “I thirst,” and oxos (vinegar) was offered to Him (see John 19:28-30). However, alcohol, its absence, or presence is not the issue here. Rather it is the pain deadening potion and its absence. It is important to note that vinegar is obtained from over-fermentation. The juice is fermented beyond the alcohol stage. It looses its alcoholic state and becomes sour in taste—vinegar.


Habakkuk 2:5, “Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied…” This scripture tells us the same sad but true story of those who become enslaved by the drink habit. They are first proud. The lure of alcohol to young and old alike is pride. People drink to be accepted of the crowd they run with. It is not because they are thirsty—it is their pride. Next, we see that he “neither keepeth at home.” Alcohol will destroy the home. Money that is badly needed to feed, clothe, and house a family is used for drink. Think of the thousands of children who go without the necessities of life because of a drunkard father. Last we see that he is one who “cannot be satisfied.” How true! Alcoholics cannot be pleased. Many are hot-tempered and quickly go into fits of blind rage. Little feet run to hide from the man they call “daddy.”


One drink is too many, and a thousand is never enough.

Semi-tortured
Jul 14th 2008, 08:44 PM
There are about 10,000 drinking threads on this board, most of which provide a lot of the information you posted (if the thread was able to last longer than a couple pages due to insults or fights). I whole heartedly disagree with you. I'll leave it at that.

Slug1
Jul 14th 2008, 08:58 PM
Jesus drank so even He'd disagree with your final statement.


One drink is too many, and a thousand is never enough.

Sketch
Jul 14th 2008, 09:04 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with the original post.




However, I do not condemn those who wholeheartedly disagree. Every one who wants to honor God with their lives will do so as the Spirit leads them. I happen to know within myself that the Spirit would not have me drink, but can I apply that to everyone else?

Of course I can't, although, since I'm human, I'd love to. But, I simply can't.

crawfish
Jul 14th 2008, 09:13 PM
You have obviously thought this out. However, you have a fatal flaw in your logic; you ASSUME the sinfulness of drinking from the outset, and use that assumption to justify your reading of scripture.

An example:


Three things must be remembered when considering supposedly contradicting texts: First, when rightly divided, the Bible and its teachings will never contradict itself. Furthermore, the Word of God and the Spirit of God will always agree. The Holy Spirit will never tell you to do contrary to the teachings of the Bible. Secondly, Jesus was sinless. Christ “knew no sin” ((I Corinthians 5:21); “did no sin” (I Peter 2:22); and was “without sin.” Last of all, we must keep in mind that Jesus was the Word of God incarnate. John 1:14, “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

Your assumption: "Jesus was sinless so he would not drink fermented wine". But another logical possibility exists: "Jesus was sinless so drinking fermented wine must not be a sin". Thus, the question still must be raised to the scripture: would drinking fermented wine be a sin?

It is important to realize that Psalms/Proverbs/Prophets are NOT law books. You simply cannot give a proverb the same legal power as, say, a law in Leviticus. They are, quite simply, adages from a father to a son, wise words to live your life by. Breaking a proverb is far from committing a sin.

As far as Leviticus 10:9; it didn't prohibit strong drink for Aaron and his sons (and their priestly descendants) completely, just from their time in the tabernacle. I see none of the 613 Hebrew laws which address this subject; meaning, one could drink alcohol and not break the law.

For the passover: the yeast in wine was not prohibited. I spent some time researching this earlier in the year and finally received an answer from a professor of Jewish history; it would have been very unusual for a Jew to drink unfermented wine during the passover.

For the Wedding at Cana: This, my friend, is wishful thinking. You cannot say NONE of the wine was fermented: the text itself states "And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: thou hast kept the good wine until now." Men don't get drunk from grape juice, and there would be no reason to serve "good non-fermented grape juice" first; why would the bad stuff taste better later? I see no way whatsoever that this could be referring to unfermented wine. It would make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

The conclusion: because Jesus did not sin, and did not encourage others to sin, I have to assume that drinking fermented wine is not a sin. To say otherwise is to try and read your own biases into the scripture rather than accept what the scripture tells you.

Slug1
Jul 14th 2008, 09:18 PM
The conclusion: because Jesus did not sin, and did not encourage others to sin, I have to assume that drinking fermented wine is not a sin. To say otherwise is to try and read your own biases into the scripture rather than accept what the scripture tells you.Yep, by creating wine as His first miracle He'd be setting a sinful standard if it's a sin to drink alcohol.

Yankee Candle
Jul 14th 2008, 11:12 PM
Yep, by creating wine as His first miracle He'd be setting a sinful standard if it's a sin to drink alcohol.

He who was holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners did not make an intoxicating drink at the wedding of Cana nor did he drink intoxicating beverages himself.

Definition: Intoxication - (from the Latin 'toxicare' which means 'poison')
To stupefy or excite, as by the action of a chemical substance such as alcohol. 2. To stimulate or excite: "a man whom life intoxicates, who has no need of wine" (Anaïs Nin). 3. To poison.

No way.


http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/PDS/PDS070/AA012571.jpg

"Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God." Mark 14:25

crawfish
Jul 15th 2008, 12:08 AM
Yep, by creating wine as His first miracle He'd be setting a sinful standard if it's a sin to drink alcohol.

OK, then. Justify that it's a sin to drink alcohol.

Yankee Candle
Jul 15th 2008, 12:21 AM
OK, then. Justify that it's a sin to drink alcohol.

For the other readers: just read the definition of intoxication as it was defined in my post above.

Since nothing in scripture clicks for the one who needs 'justification' that drinking intoxicating beverages is sin, this is for everyone else.

"Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright." Proverbs 23

Kate
Jul 15th 2008, 01:25 AM
One word: LEGALISM.

Let no one judge you in food or drink.

Whhether you eat or drink, do it to the glory of God.

Slug1
Jul 15th 2008, 02:28 AM
OK, then. Justify that it's a sin to drink alcohol.I'm saying it's NOT a sin. Jesus created wine so if it's a sin then He'd be setting a sinful standard from the get-go during His ministry. Since He would not cause people to "be" sinful or "to" stumble by creating wine then it's NOT sinful to drink alcohol.

Yankee Candle
Jul 15th 2008, 02:34 AM
One word: LEGALISM.

Let no one judge you in food or drink.

Whhether you eat or drink, do it to the glory of God.

Nope.

Should we toss out Proverbs 20:1, 23:23-30 & Ephesians 5:18 just because we are afraid of being called 'legalists'? No way.

Paul had in mind the 'right' food and drink, not the wrong ones. No one could think that God would approve of drinking poison that might bring on death or sickness. But that is just the point: fermented beverages are intoxicating (poisonous) by definition. That is why so much destruction has come to the lives of those who partake of it/them.

We need to stick with the pure 'fruit of the vine' as Jesus mentioned in Matthew 14:25.



http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/PDS/PDS043/FD004481.jpg

Slug1
Jul 15th 2008, 02:42 AM
He who was holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners did not make an intoxicating drink at the wedding of Cana nor did he drink intoxicating beverages himself.

Luke 7

33 For John the Baptist did not come eating bread or drinking wine, (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=7&verse=33&end_verse=35&version=77&context=context#cen-HCSB-25397A)) and you say, 'He has a demon!' 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners! (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=7&verse=33&end_verse=35&version=77&context=context#cen-HCSB-25398B)) ' 35 Yet wisdom is vindicated [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=7&verse=33&end_verse=35&version=77&context=context#fen-HCSB-25399a)] by all her children."


So we see that Jesus was doing something to be accused of being a drunkard and that something, was drinking some sort of alcoholic beverage. Now we understand that He was not a drunkard (as this is a sin) and this is an exaggeration of His drinking an alcoholic drink. But clearly shows us in scripture that He did drink something that was alcoholic. Otherwise the accusation would not be in scripture.






"Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God." Mark 14:25Thank you for posting this scripture. I underlined the words NO MORE which also clearly shows he cannot do this if He never drank an alcoholic drink.

How can you not do something anymore if you never did it... even once?

Besides this was at the very end of His three year ministry when He knew His time was up. We still have 3 years to account for before He made this statement.

crawfish
Jul 15th 2008, 02:56 AM
I'm saying it's NOT a sin. Jesus created wine so if it's a sin then He'd be setting a sinful standard from the get-go during His ministry. Since He would not cause people to "be" sinful or "to" stumble by creating wine then it's NOT sinful to drink alcohol.

My apologies, then. You're right. :)

Kate
Jul 15th 2008, 03:25 AM
If you were to tell any Jew that Jesus and his disciples drank grape juice at the Passover they would laugh you to derision. You have to look at the custom of the Jews in order to look at this in context. Also, the grape harvest in Israel is in late August. The passover was in March or April, so this means that the wine they were drinking was 7 - 8 months old. They didn't have refrigeration back then and (especially the middle eastern climate) and grape juice ferments quickly. Passover wine was not fresh juice.

Jesus himself even used the analogy of preserving wine in wineskins in his parables. Why would he do that if he thought preserving wine (which then ferments) was taboo? Wouldn't that be an odd analogy??

It's inconceivable that Jesus would go his entire life through 33 years of the feasts such as Purim and Passover without drinking any wine. Anyone who thinks so is believing a fantasy.

The Bible does not condemn moderate use of alcohol and even encourages it in certain areas. Personally, I could take it or leave it - I don't care. But I have a big problem with pharisaeical legalism. God gives us all things to enjoy. It says that it isn't what goes into a man that defiles a man but what comes out of him. Scriptures referencing alcohol in a negative way clearly refer to drunkenness, which is a sin. The Hebrew yayin refers to fermented wine. There are both positive references to the use of yayin and negative (referring to drunkenness). To state that it is referring to fermented wine in all of the negative refernces (drunkenness) and then to take the same word, yayin, and say that all positive references to the use of wine is referring to grape juice is crazy.

The argument that all fermented wine is sinful is extremely weak and a huge stretch - in light of ancient Jewish custom, the words, and the number of references to wine in scripture.

Do you seriously think that they serve grape juice at Jewish weddings, 2000 years ago or now? Have you been to a Jewish wedding? Why would they serve grape juice? Wine is used in celebratory events. The master of the house gives it away when he says that the good wine was saved until last. This verse is interpreted in Luke 5 where the scripture says, " No one who has been drinking old wine wants new wine. He says, 'The old wine is better!'" Hello- is "old wine" referring to grape juice? Old wine is referring to fermented wine.

Jesus himself said "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, “He has a demon”; the Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, “Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax-collectors and sinners!” Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds." (Matt 11:18-19) Jesus is clearly saying he drank fermented wine, as evidenced by the fact the pharisees accused him falsely of abusing it. And guess who had a problem with him having any at all? The pharisees. Just like the modern day ones.

Here's where I stand: I could take it or leave it. But there are those who are weak in the faith who could stumble so it's better to abstain and act in the law of love if it offends your brother. "It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that will cause your brother to stumble". And "all things are lawful for me but not all things are profitable".
Enough from me from now.

Yankee Candle
Jul 15th 2008, 03:33 AM
Luke 7

33 For John the Baptist did not come eating bread or drinking wine, (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=7&verse=33&end_verse=35&version=77&context=context#cen-HCSB-25397A)) and you say, 'He has a demon!' 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners! (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=7&verse=33&end_verse=35&version=77&context=context#cen-HCSB-25398B)) ' 35 Yet wisdom is vindicated [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=7&verse=33&end_verse=35&version=77&context=context#fen-HCSB-25399a)] by all her children."


So we see that Jesus was doing something to be accused of being a drunkard and that something, was drinking some sort of alcoholic beverage. Now we understand that He was not a drunkard (as this is a sin) and this is an exaggeration of His drinking an alcoholic drink. But clearly shows us in scripture that He did drink something that was alcoholic. Otherwise the accusation would not be in scripture.

Thank you for posting this scripture. I underlined the words NO MORE which also clearly shows he cannot do this if He never drank an alcoholic drink.

How can you not do something anymore if you never did it... even once?

Besides this was at the very end of His three year ministry when He knew His time was up. We still have 3 years to account for before He made this statement.

No. Absolutely not. Jesus was accused of drinking wine, yes, by those who THOUGHT he was drinking something fermented. They also accused him of being born of fornication. Was He?

It is the epitome of foolishness to believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, who was holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sin(ners) would make something intoxicating, still less drink it.

The topic poster made an excellent case explaining the different references to wine (both fermented and unfermented depending upon the context) and the 'fruit of the vine' which was unfermented. It is called that by that name in such passages to emphasize its purity. Only juice that has had the time to undergo the process of putrefaction will be fermented (intoxicating).

pu·tre·fac·tion (py›"tr…-f²k"sh…n) n. 1. Decomposition of organic matter, especially protein, by microorganisms, resulting in production of foul-smelling matter. 2. Putrefied matter. 3. The condition of being putrefied. [Middle English putrefaccioun, from Late Latin putrefacti½, putrefacti½n-, from putrefactus, past participle of Latin putrefacere, to make rotten.

fer·ment (fûr"mµnt") n. 1. Something, such as a yeast, a bacterium, a mold, or an enzyme, that causes fermentation. 2. Fermentation. 3.a. A state of agitation or of turbulent change or development.

It is point three where Proverbs 23:31 comes into play. That process leads to an intoxicating (poisonous) concoction. God have mercy on Christians who have developed a taste for that rotten stuff.

It was God who made the pure fruit on the vine...but it is men who take it and later make it's juice intoxicating.


http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/PDS/PDS070/AA012571.jpg

Kate
Jul 15th 2008, 03:44 AM
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I certainly respect your opinions.

I do think it is *better* for a Christian to not drink, for the sake of testimony. But I don't agree with the argument.

Yankee Candle
Jul 15th 2008, 03:49 AM
"If you were to tell any Jew that Jesus and his disciples drank grape juice at the Passover they would laugh you to derision."

So let them laugh.

Please go back and read the excellent dissertation that the topic poster gave us in the first few posts on this thread, because it appears to me that most of the readers here deliberately ignored the force and power of those arguments.

The detractors are being so shallow in their thinking on this!

What, pray tell did Jesus say was supposed to be partaken at the Lord's supper? The bread and the fruit of the vine (he did NOT call it wine, most certainly on purpose). Now...the bread was to be what kind of bread? Unleavened. Why? Because leaven symbolized EVIL, thats why. That is perfectly understandable. Yet, while leaven is not rotten fermented wine IS. Yet, you think that God would have the bread pure and unleavened while the wine He offered His disciples was rotten?

Talk about inconsistency? My goodness!


http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/PDS/PDS070/AA012571.jpg

Brother Mark
Jul 15th 2008, 12:01 PM
The argument that all fermented wine is sinful is extremely weak and a huge stretch - in light of ancient Jewish custom, the words, and the number of references to wine in scripture.

Do you seriously think that they serve grape juice at Jewish weddings, 2000 years ago or now? Have you been to a Jewish wedding? Why would they serve grape juice? Wine is used in celebratory events. The master of the house gives it away when he says that the good wine was saved until last. This verse is interpreted in Luke 5 where the scripture says, " No one who has been drinking old wine wants new wine. He says, 'The old wine is better!'" Hello- is "old wine" referring to grape juice? Old wine is referring to fermented wine.

Without refrigeration, grape juice ferments. If anyone drank grape juice out of season, they were drinking fermented juice. You are quite right, that it is no sin to drink alcohol. Just don't get drunk.

Gentile
Jul 15th 2008, 01:09 PM
Why is this topic the most popular on this board? If you dont drink or have something against alcohol fine. Alcohol has been on this earth way before Christ.

And people please stop saying the wine in biblical times was "grape juice", it's just ridiculous and it makes me cringe when people try to justify this theory just because they think alcohol is bad.

Lets move on!

crawfish
Jul 15th 2008, 01:29 PM
Why is this topic the most popular on this board? If you dont drink or have something against alcohol fine. Alcohol has been on this earth way before Christ.

And people please stop saying the wine in biblical times was "grape juice", it's just ridiculous and it makes me cringe when people try to justify this theory just because they think alcohol is bad.

Lets move on!

As long as legalism persists, these arguments will continue.

Yankee Candle
Jul 15th 2008, 01:36 PM
Why is this topic the most popular on this board? If you dont drink or have something against alcohol fine. Alcohol has been on this earth way before Christ.

And people please stop saying the wine in biblical times was "grape juice", it's just ridiculous and it makes me cringe when people try to justify this theory just because they think alcohol is bad.

Lets move on!

That is not so. Read the topic post and its follow up very carefully.

It is a sin in God's eyes to drink that which is intoxicating, just as it is a sin to use prozac to make one feel good instead of relying upon the Holy Spirit to bring one joy. Artificial stimulants and/or inebriants are uneeded by those who really feel the presence of the Lord.


http://images-partners-tbn.google.com/images?q=tbn:Of9XJbB7NV3q_M:www.hawaiipictures.com/pictures/kauai/rainbows1-1.jpg


I wish you all well. I won't continue this debate.

HisLeast
Jul 15th 2008, 01:59 PM
That is not so. Read the topic post and its follow up very carefully.

It is a sin in God's eyes to drink that which is intoxicating, just as it is a sin to use prozac to make one feel good instead of relying upon the Holy Spirit to bring one joy. Artificial stimulants and/or inebriants are uneeded by those who really feel the presence of the Lord.






I wish you all well. I won't continue this debate.


Except its not a sin to drink alcohol, in old testament or new. We can determine this three ways.

1) Precedent
- Jesus' first miracle was to create wine for a wedding. The wine was such that people commented to the host "wow, you saved the good stuff for the end". They weren't talking about how fresh the grapejuice was... they were talking about the quality of the wine.
- After Noah's Ark adventure, Noah started fermenting. Yes, he got wicked drunk off of it, but its his drunkenness that was contemptable, not his brewing.
- Old testament food laws were extremely precise, yet have no prohibition from alcohol except for certain ceremonial needs (like for Levites on duty...Leviticus 10:9, or people under Nazarene vow ...Numbers 6:3) Does anyone else find it strange to see a "don't eat pork", yet there's nothing saying "don't drink fermented liquids"?
- Fermenation was necessary to avoid other precedential taboos such as the consumption of yeist, which brings me to (2)...

2) Science
- Without refridgeration or pasteurization, grape-juice consumed by passover would NECESSITATE fermentation, as fermentation is the only means available to get rid of the yeist. If you want to show that the Jews never consumed alcohol, you have to show either (a) they used refridgeration techniques, (b) they had knowledge of pasteurization, or (c) they only drank fresh grape juice immediately after harvest.

3) Principle / Scripture
- Or more accurately, lack of scripture. Everywhere we see mention of drinking we see "don't get drunk", when it would have been much easier to say "don't drink anything fermented" if that was the original purpose.
- Psalm 104:15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart
- Any time we're told to abstain from alcohol, it is for ceremonial reasons. It is never listed anywhere as a general prohibition.

RJ Mac
Jul 15th 2008, 02:12 PM
I do not believe drinking alcohol is a sin but drinking alcohol does irreversable
damage to your influence over others. For a parent to drink before their kids
teaches them its okay to drink, but how many beers in one sitting? If the
parent sets the standard one doesn't need alcohol, his influence is greater
over the child in that area.

Timothy understood the evils of alcohol so he refused to drink, hanging on
to his influence, but Paul intervened and told him to drink for his stomaches
sake, use alcohol for medicinal purposes.

I don't drink, not because its evil, but because I want to set a good example
to my kids, to all who know me. We drank in high school, turned on one kid
to his first drink, he never quit, he died at 42 liver complications, what if
his friends didn't encourage him to drink, what if his friends showed him
a better way, he may be still alive today and his family would still have a dad.

You never know what your influence will do, so make it a good influence.
Maybe I need to rethink my approach to gambling in this same
light, not the act of gambling itself is a sin but the influence is?

Its your influence for Christ that needs to be argued for not whether or
not a glass of wine is sinful, it's not.

This is a hot topic because so many Christians enjoy social drinking. But
what statement is one making when in a social setting with family we don't
tip the glass of wine and yet still have a good time with everyone.

RJ

Gentile
Jul 15th 2008, 02:14 PM
That is not so. Read the topic post and its follow up very carefully.

It is a sin in God's eyes to drink that which is intoxicating, just as it is a sin to use prozac to make one feel good instead of relying upon the Holy Spirit to bring one joy. Artificial stimulants and/or inebriants are uneeded by those who really feel the presence of the Lord.


http://images-partners-tbn.google.com/images?q=tbn:Of9XJbB7NV3q_M:www.hawaiipictures.com/pictures/kauai/rainbows1-1.jpg


I wish you all well. I won't continue this debate.



I will say it again, Drinking is not a sin! Period.

Steve M
Jul 15th 2008, 02:14 PM
The OP used Proverbs 23 to justify calling even moderate drinking wrong.

To do this, the OP ignored context.

OP:
Proverbs 23:31-32, “Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.” The moving referred to here is the fermentation process. The teaching here is total abstinence.

Except that the verses before don't quite say that.


20 Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, 21 for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags. 22 Listen to your father, who gave you life, and do not despise your mother when she is old. 23 Buy the truth and do not sell it; get wisdom, discipline and understanding. 24 The father of a righteous man has great joy; he who has a wise son delights in him. 25 May your father and mother be glad; may she who gave you birth rejoice! 26 My son, give me your heart and let your eyes keep to my ways, 27 for a prostitute is a deep pit and a wayward wife is a narrow well. 28 Like a bandit she lies in wait, and multiplies the unfaithful among men.

29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has strife? Who has complaints? Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes? 30 Those who linger over wine, who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.

The Bible clearly condemns drunkenness in this verse. To say that it is proclaiming total abstinence from this verse in to mangle the context beyond recognition.

Steve M
Jul 15th 2008, 02:17 PM
No. Absolutely not. Jesus was accused of drinking wine, yes, by those who THOUGHT he was drinking something fermented. They also accused him of being born of fornication. Was He?

It is the epitome of foolishness to believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, who was holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sin(ners) would make something intoxicating, still less drink it.

The topic poster made an excellent case explaining the different references to wine (both fermented and unfermented depending upon the context) and the 'fruit of the vine' which was unfermented. It is called that by that name in such passages to emphasize its purity. Only juice that has had the time to undergo the process of putrefaction will be fermented (intoxicating).

pu·tre·fac·tion (py›"tr…-f²k"sh…n) n. 1. Decomposition of organic matter, especially protein, by microorganisms, resulting in production of foul-smelling matter. 2. Putrefied matter. 3. The condition of being putrefied. [Middle English putrefaccioun, from Late Latin putrefacti½, putrefacti½n-, from putrefactus, past participle of Latin putrefacere, to make rotten.

fer·ment (fûr"mµnt") n. 1. Something, such as a yeast, a bacterium, a mold, or an enzyme, that causes fermentation. 2. Fermentation. 3.a. A state of agitation or of turbulent change or development.

It is point three where Proverbs 23:31 comes into play. That process leads to an intoxicating (poisonous) concoction. God have mercy on Christians who have developed a taste for that rotten stuff.

It was God who made the pure fruit on the vine...but it is men who take it and later make it's juice intoxicating.


http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/PDS/PDS070/AA012571.jpg
"John the Baptist came neither eating nor drinking... I came both eating and drinking, and they called me a drunk."

That's what the verses say, paraphrased by me. Now, what was John the Baptist not drinking? If he drank no fluid at all, wouldn't he die of dehydration?

What was it that Jesus was drinking that John wasn't?

faithfulfriend
Jul 15th 2008, 02:30 PM
I do not believe drinking alcohol is a sin but drinking alcohol does irreversable
damage to your influence over others. For a parent to drink before their kids
teaches them its okay to drink, but how many beers in one sitting? If the
parent sets the standard one doesn't need alcohol, his influence is greater
over the child in that area.

Timothy understood the evils of alcohol so he refused to drink, hanging on
to his influence, but Paul intervened and told him to drink for his stomaches
sake, use alcohol for medicinal purposes.

I don't drink, not because its evil, but because I want to set a good example
to my kids, to all who know me. We drank in high school, turned on one kid
to his first drink, he never quit, he died at 42 liver complications, what if
his friends didn't encourage him to drink, what if his friends showed him
a better way, he may be still alive today and his family would still have a dad.

You never know what your influence will do, so make it a good influence.
Maybe I need to rethink my approach to gambling in this same
light, not the act of gambling itself is a sin but the influence is?

Its your influence for Christ that needs to be argued for not whether or
not a glass of wine is sinful, it's not.

This is a hot topic because so many Christians enjoy social drinking. But
what statement is one making when in a social setting with family we don't
tip the glass of wine and yet still have a good time with everyone.

RJ

The very first sentence of the study has rung true in this thread. I stated:

"Unless one has an honest heart, no amount of statistical evidence or scripture will change their mind against alcoholic beverages."

Nothing I can say, prove by scripture, or statistics will change the minds of those that want to justify drinking alcohol.

Judging by the responses so far, what I have presented is obviously being rejected for the most part (there are a few who have been supportive, and for that I appreciate). Some of the statements being posted were covered thoroughly during the OP, therefore it is probably safe to say that some didn't even bother to read my OPs, or they just ignored some of the material contained within. Or perhaps the OPs weren't followed as closely as they should have been, thus a "skimming over" of the material did nothing to change the hearts of the already pre-biased.

I felt it was a very thorough and in depth study concerning the Greek/Hebrew texts and definitions of the term "wine" in the scriptures.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

I've done my best to:

Reprove: To excite a sense of guilt. To refute; to disprove

Rebuke: To chide; to reprove; to reprehend for a fault; to check by reproof. To chasten; to punish; to afflict for correction

Exhort:To advise; to warn; to caution. To deliver exhortation; to use words or arguments to incite to good deeds.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Regardless of the truth that was presented, some just will not endure sound doctrine, thus leaving them in the same spiritual condition.

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

How sad for verse 4 to apply to anybody.

As for me or anyone being called "legalistic", I can live with that. I'd rather live too strict of a life and make it to Heaven, than to live to loosely and be shut out from Heaven's gates by Almighty God because I didn't live the way he commanded me to in his Word. Being a Christian is a serious matter, it's so much more and so much deeper than a religious profession of faith. There is a life that goes behind it.

Yankee Candle
Jul 15th 2008, 02:33 PM
The OP used Proverbs 23 to justify calling even moderate drinking wrong.

To do this, the OP ignored context.

OP:

Except that the verses before don't quite say that.


The Bible clearly condemns drunkenness in this verse. To say that it is proclaiming total abstinence from this verse in to mangle the context beyond recognition.

One last thing: No, the OP did NOT ignore context. It was covered very well.

Question: When does a person drinking intoxicating beverages begin to get drunk? Well, when does a person drinking poison begin to be poisoned? Answer: the first drink.

End of line.


http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/UPC/UPC005/rso53005.jpg


I'll stick with the fruit of the vine...like Jesus and His disciples did.

Steve M
Jul 15th 2008, 02:50 PM
I'll stick with the fruit of the vine...like Jesus and His disciples did.

Then I'll ask again... what was John the Baptist not drinking that Jesus was drinking?

Steve M
Jul 15th 2008, 02:53 PM
Nothing I can say, prove by scripture, or statistics will change the minds of those that want to justify drinking alcohol.

I don't drink. The sum total of all the alcohol I've consumed in my life is all the cough syrup I've ever had (which is neglible) and half a beer (which was quite bitter, and not at all intoxifying).

I continue to post on threads like this because Paul told Timothy to watch out for people who commanded abstention from things the Lord intended to be recieved with thanksgiving. (speaking of meat, of course)

HisLeast
Jul 15th 2008, 03:16 PM
The very first sentence of the study has rung true in this thread. I stated:

"Unless one has an honest heart, no amount of statistical evidence or scripture will change their mind against alcoholic beverages."

So all those who disagree with you have a dishonest heart, regardless of having a panoply of scriptural evidence, scriptural precedents, and scientifc & historical facts?


Nothing I can say, prove by scripture, or statistics will change the minds of those that want to justify drinking alcohol.

Nor apparently, is there anything we can say, prove by scripture/history/science that will change the minds of those that want to add prohibitions which do not exist. Seems we're at an impass.

Truly, I'm open to correction, so bring your best evidence, but understand that there's a good amount of counter-evidence. If your case is that tight, there's no reason to season it with fallacious reasoning such as "if you don't accept this lesson as truth then you have a dishonest heart".

Slug1
Jul 15th 2008, 03:19 PM
Come to think of it, wasn't ONLY John the Baptist and Samson's mom the only people in the Bible "told" not to drink alcoholic beverages? For Samson's mom it was just during the pragnacy anyway, which is healthy advice for any expectant mom but she was told "only" during the pregnacy.

Neither were told it was a sin, just that that was what was commanded of them for specific reasons.

crawfish
Jul 15th 2008, 03:23 PM
The very first sentence of the study has rung true in this thread. I stated:

"Unless one has an honest heart, no amount of statistical evidence or scripture will change their mind against alcoholic beverages."

Nothing I can say, prove by scripture, or statistics will change the minds of those that want to justify drinking alcohol.

Perhaps we might change if you proved something. I challenged your logic in my post; you post from scripture assuming that drinking in moderation is wrong. You must first prove that thesis before being able to apply unrelated scripture to it.


Judging by the responses so far, what I have presented is obviously being rejected for the most part (there are a few who have been supportive, and for that I appreciate). Some of the statements being posted were covered thoroughly during the OP, therefore it is probably safe to say that some didn't even bother to read my OPs, or they just ignored some of the material contained within. Or perhaps the OPs weren't followed as closely as they should have been, thus a "skimming over" of the material did nothing to change the hearts of the already pre-biased.


Most of your arguments become invalid because you never established the basic point: that moderate drinking is wrong. You can argue the meaning of words all you want, but at best the definition of those terms is ambiguous; meaning, you choose to accept the non-fermented meaning of the word only because you believe that all drinking of fermented wine is a sin. That is circular reasoning; you must establish a non-ambiguous base before you can make such an application.


I felt it was a very thorough and in depth study concerning the Greek/Hebrew texts and definitions of the term "wine" in the scriptures.


Here is another incredibly thorough study that goes through nearly every mention of wine in the bible: http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nowine.html. And they come up to a different conclusion.


2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

I've done my best to:

Reprove: To excite a sense of guilt. To refute; to disprove

Rebuke: To chide; to reprove; to reprehend for a fault; to check by reproof. To chasten; to punish; to afflict for correction

Exhort:To advise; to warn; to caution. To deliver exhortation; to use words or arguments to incite to good deeds.



You need to prove the first part: "Preach the word". You aren't supposed to reprove, rebuke and exhort your opinions. Prove the basic thesis - that moderate drinking is wrong - and we'll be summarily rebuked.


3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Regardless of the truth that was presented, some just will not endure sound doctrine, thus leaving them in the same spiritual condition.

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

How sad for verse 4 to apply to anybody.

You are using these verses for a specific purpose that cannot be applied if your main thesis is wrong. PROVE IT! Unambiguously.



As for me or anyone being called "legalistic", I can live with that. I'd rather live too strict of a life and make it to Heaven, than to live to loosely and be shut out from Heaven's gates by Almighty God because I didn't live the way he commanded me to in his Word. Being a Christian is a serious matter, it's so much more and so much deeper than a religious profession of faith. There is a life that goes behind it.

The threat of legalism is that it tends to try and enforce cultural values through scripture, rather than let scripture define what should be enforced. I've seen over and over again on these boards and others legalists go to great lengths to explain away verses that (seem to) oppose their viewpoint, while they let verses that (seem to) support it speak for themselves. This is dishonest - scripture should dictate through us, not us dictate through scripture. It is bad theology.

I read your full post, and I believe I addressed the basic points. If there is something you think I'm avoiding, then by all means, let me know.

Brother Mark
Jul 15th 2008, 03:23 PM
As for me or anyone being called "legalistic", I can live with that. I'd rather live too strict of a life and make it to Heaven, than to live to loosely and be shut out from Heaven's gates by Almighty God because I didn't live the way he commanded me to in his Word. Being a Christian is a serious matter, it's so much more and so much deeper than a religious profession of faith. There is a life that goes behind it.


In the words of Christ, the prostitutes and tax gatherers make it in before the pharisees. We need to be careful of both being too loose and too strict. Those that have restrictions more than God does, prevent those that would enter in from entering. Let us endeavor to be neither a legalist nor someone who feels they have a license to sin.

Slug1
Jul 15th 2008, 03:28 PM
In the words of Christ, the prostitutes and tax gatherers make it in before the pharisees. We need to be careful of both being too loose and too strict. Those that have restrictions more than God does prevent those that would enter in from entering. Let us endeavor to be neither a legalist nor someone who feels they have a license to sin.Let me buy you a beer ;)

Steve M
Jul 15th 2008, 03:33 PM
As for me or anyone being called "legalistic", I can live with that. I'd rather live too strict of a life and make it to Heaven, than to live to loosely and be shut out from Heaven's gates by Almighty God because I didn't live the way he commanded me to in his Word. Being a Christian is a serious matter, it's so much more and so much deeper than a religious profession of faith. There is a life that goes behind it.The threat of legalism is that it tends to try and enforce cultural values through scripture, rather than let scripture define what should be enforced. I've seen over and over again on these boards and others legalists go to great lengths to explain away verses that (seem to) oppose their viewpoint, while they let verses that (seem to) support it speak for themselves. This is dishonest - scripture should dictate through us, not us dictate through scripture. It is bad theology.I myself have occasionally been accused of legalism... an easy enough phrase to throw around. But the true danger that Paul preached against was this:
Colossians 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Catch that? Paul said that adding commandments that appear wise but have no backing in scripture doesn't really help.

If the commandment is really in scripture... I will stand with it all the way, no matter how controversial it becomes, no matter how much flack it stirs, no matter if I have to argue with my own mother about it. (I have done such in the past, and it is painful to me)

But if the commandment is not in scripture, then to even stand by it for a minute should be abhorrent.

Gentile
Jul 15th 2008, 04:59 PM
In the words of Benjamin Franklin: "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."


C'mon guys it's to nice to be inside, Ive got a cooler filled with some ice cold brews. Lets have a go at it!

Brother Mark
Jul 15th 2008, 05:07 PM
Come to think of it, wasn't ONLY John the Baptist and Samson's mom the only people in the Bible "told" not to drink alcoholic beverages? For Samson's mom it was just during the pragnacy anyway, which is healthy advice for any expectant mom but she was told "only" during the pregnacy.

Neither were told it was a sin, just that that was what was commanded of them for specific reasons.

Also, Samson was to be a Nazarite. Nazarites took a vow to abstain from alcohol (maybe all fruit of the vine but I can't remember). That's also why his hair was long as part of the vow was that his hair was not to be cut.

Brother Mark
Jul 15th 2008, 05:08 PM
Let me buy you a beer ;)

I'll bring the BBQ. :saint:

Slug1
Jul 15th 2008, 05:12 PM
I'll bring the BBQ. :saint:The plan is now complete :hug: :lol:

HisLeast
Jul 15th 2008, 07:44 PM
The plan is now complete :hug: :lol:

Too bad y'all weren't in Illinois. You could come to mine.

Semi-tortured
Jul 15th 2008, 09:07 PM
Question: When does a person drinking intoxicating beverages begin to get drunk? Well, when does a person drinking poison begin to be poisoned? Answer: the first drink.











Well, by that logic, you need to refrain from vanilla extract, cough syrup, mouthwash, etc. All have alcohol in them which if drank to excess could lead to drunkeness.

When does a glutton begin to become a glutton? The first bite?

apothanein kerdos
Jul 15th 2008, 09:55 PM
Reading this topic almost made me spit my dark brewed lager all over the screen.

Yankee Candle
Jul 16th 2008, 12:26 AM
Reading this topic almost made me spit my dark brewed lager all over the screen.

Oh, my, shall I let this foolishness go unanswered? No.

Only a person who rejects the clear-cut scriptural position laid out by the topic poster would say something like that.

When the individuals on this thread can find justification for drinking intoxicating beverages which are responsible for the destruction of many a marriage, many a family, the loss of jobs, the destruction of health in the lives of untold millions, and the death of hundreds of thousands of people on our highways, as well as the loss of respect that comes to those who are overtaken by a lust for the taste of wine/liquor/beer then I will retreat from my postion.

One can no more drink intoxicating beverages in 'moderation' than you can commit adultery in moderation, or fornication in moderation, or theft in moderation, or foul language in moderation. What shallow thinking!

God did not say, "Look not thou upon the wine when it...moveth itself aright" he was not saying, "It's all right to drink a little of it as long as you don't look at it while you drink." :confused He was clearly stating that when the fruit of the vine degenerates to a condtion of fermenation AVOID IT. The prohibition against drinking intoxicating beverages is as strong as is the condemnation against sexual immorality or lying.

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Proverbs 20:1.

It appears that there are those who defend social drinking who are indeed deceived. But when you ask them, 'How much is too much?" they haven't got a clue.

http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/PDS/PDS043/FD004481.jpg

HisLeast
Jul 16th 2008, 12:56 AM
Oh, my, shall I let this foolishness go unanswered? No.Could you give equal attention to the more critical and well thought out responses to the OP?


Only a person who rejects the clear-cut scriptural position laid out by the topic poster would say something like that. The OP no doubt spent a good amount of time researching etymology of certain words, but unfortunately he did not make a strong biblical case, as both I and Crawfish have pointed out. We have demonstrated scriptural permission, scriptural precedent, and plain historic / scientific fact. The Jews (including Jesus) drank fermented wine. The bible does not prohibit fermentation, but only drunkenness.


When the individuals on this thread can find justification for drinking intoxicating beveragesYour case would be stronger if you left it hypothesis-observation-conclusion, rather than implicate those of us who disagree as "seeking justification for sin". Lets be clear here. The OP is asserting that alcohol consumption in any form is sinful. When one makes those kinds of assertion when the text is not explicit in its taboo (like the prohibition from eating meat with blood in it) then it is THAT claimant that must do the justification. I could easily say that the OP is adding to the word of God, and anyone who disagrees with me is guilty of the same blasphemy... but not only would that be rude, it would also be utterly void of truth.


which are responsible for the destruction of many a marriage, many a family, the loss of jobs, the destruction of health in the lives of untold millions, and the death of hundreds of thousands of people on our highways, as well as the loss of respect that comes to those who are overtaken by a lust for the taste of wine/liquor/beer then I will retreat from my postion.

One can no more drink intoxicating beverages in 'moderation' than you can commit adultery in moderation, or fornication in moderation, or theft in moderation, or foul language in moderation. What shallow thinking!
All of which have clear and explicitly stated taboos. The only explicit statements prohibiting alcohol in scriptures are listed as exceptions. Levites when on priestly duty, and Nazarene vows for example. If the taboo were universal, there's be no need to specify these cases.


It appears that there are those who defend social drinking who are indeed deceived. But when you ask them, 'How much is too much?" they haven't got a clue.
All I'm defending is the freedom God has given man and the truth of God's word unmodified by opinion. The deception lies in the outright denial of scriptural permission, precedent, and scientific / historical evidence.

Yankee Candle
Jul 16th 2008, 01:15 AM
"Could you give equal attention to the more critical and well thought out responses to the OP?"

They are not well thought out responses. They are shallow and full of rationalizations about drinking intoxicating beverages. The fact that they are 'intoixicating' (def. poison) should be enough for any honest believer with a tender conscience. Apparently there are those among the posters who like the taste of that which has literally putrefied (rotted!)

"All of which have clear and explicitly stated taboos."

So does the drinking of intoxicating beverages. Look dear friend, if Prov. 20:1, 23:23-30, 31:4-5, Habbakuk 2:15 & Ephesians 5:18 are not clear enough then there is nothing more I can say that will benefit you.

It is clear that God hates that which makes a man drunk but He doesn't hate it until it has degenerated and become rotten.

Billy Sunday used to preach hard against the 'liquor devil' as he called it. I stand with him and with every other preacher who remains faithful in this matter.

Have a good evening.


http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/IGS/IGS503/IS283-057.jpg

apothanein kerdos
Jul 16th 2008, 01:21 AM
Oh, my, shall I let this foolishness go unanswered? No.

Only a person who rejects the clear-cut scriptural position laid out by the topic poster would say something like that.

When the individuals on this thread can find justification for drinking intoxicating beverages which are responsible for the destruction of many a marriage, many a family, the loss of jobs, the destruction of health in the lives of untold millions, and the death of hundreds of thousands of people on our highways, as well as the loss of respect that comes to those who are overtaken by a lust for the taste of wine/liquor/beer then I will retreat from my postion.

One can no more drink intoxicating beverages in 'moderation' than you can commit adultery in moderation, or fornication in moderation, or theft in moderation, or foul language in moderation. What shallow thinking!

God did not say, "Look not thou upon the wine when it...moveth itself aright" he was not saying, "It's all right to drink a little of it as long as you don't look at it while you drink." :confused He was clearly stating that when the fruit of the vine degenerates to a condtion of fermenation AVOID IT. The prohibition against drinking intoxicating beverages is as strong as is the condemnation against sexual immorality or lying.

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Proverbs 20:1.

It appears that there are those who defend social drinking who are indeed deceived. But when you ask them, 'How much is too much?" they haven't got a clue.

http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/PDS/PDS043/FD004481.jpg


Guess I'm deceived, a wretched sinner, and I'm lacking the Spirit.

Or it could be I just find this discussion to be foolishness since the Bible advocates drinking and people who have literally no training in Greek or Hebrew attempt to explain what the Greek and Hebrew means to those who have studied it.

Brother Mark
Jul 16th 2008, 02:04 AM
But when you ask them, 'How much is too much?" they haven't got a clue.

The answer to your question is don't drink till you get drunk. That would be too much.

As for fermented wine, any grape juice that was drunk out of season would be fermented. With no refrigeration, the only way to keep it is if it ferments. Otherwise, it would rot as you suggest and not be fit for even medicine. Grape juice will only keep for a few days unrefrigerated before it begins fermentation. So the only way one could drink fresh juice would be to pretty much squeeze it the week you drink it. That would make for very little grape juice in the off months.

crawfish
Jul 16th 2008, 02:13 AM
I'm toasting a glass of wine in honor of this thread. But just one, because two would be too much. ;)

losthorizon
Jul 16th 2008, 02:16 AM
I'm toasting a glass of wine in honor of this thread. But just one, because two would be too much. ;)
I'll drink to that. ;)

HisLeast
Jul 16th 2008, 02:26 AM
They are not well thought out responses. They are shallow and full of rationalizations about drinking intoxicating beverages. The fact that they are 'intoixicating' (def. poison) should be enough for any honest believer with a tender conscience. Apparently there are those among the posters who like the taste of that which has literally putrefied (rotted!)Whether or not you think they're well thought out, if you want to maintain that all alcohol consumption is sin, you MUST address them.

1) Scientifically speaking, how could Jews have drunk grape juice at passover that wasn't fermented? (hint: its impossible)? Alternatively, how did Jesus produce old grape juice @ Cana that was unfermented? (hint: old grape juice IS fermented)
2) Why would the bible bother making specific role prohibitions (Levite priests, kings, church elders, and Nazarenes) if the prohibition was general and total?
3) If the prohibition is that clear and total (and obvious), why then is there no definitive law, like those concerning other Jewish dietary restrictions?

I ask you to be the honest believer you accuse me of not being and answer these questions.

Incidentally, your definition of intoxication is also skewed. Consuming poison can be intoxicating, but intoxication can occur in typically banal harmless substances. Water Intoxication is a great example. In fact, consume anything in enough quantity and you can acquire some type of intoxication.


So does the drinking of intoxicating beverages. Look dear friend, if Prov. 20:1, 23:23-30, 31:4-5, Habbakuk 2:15 & Ephesians 5:18 are not clear enough then there is nothing more I can say that will benefit you.Proverbs 20:1 - Describes what the abuse of wine looks like.
Proverbs 23:23-30 - "those who LINGER LONG over wine"
Proverbs 31:4-5 - Specific prohibition for Kings. I quite agree.
Habbakuk 2:15 - Don't get your neighbour drunk so you can watch him "in his nakedness/shame (translations vary). Essentially, don't get people drunk to watch them be goof balls. Again, its not a general prohibition.
Ephesians 5:18 - Don't get drunk

I'd list several scriptures of my own but its clear from the OP that anyone who disagrees with his application of 'yayin' is ONLY trying to justify sin. Suffice it to say, a good number of lexical experts disagree with his translation. Even 1 Samuel 25:36,37 Nabal was drunk off 'yayin'. I understand that makes things difficult, because if yayin CAN be viewed as fermented, then you have to address the other scriptures showing it positively. But even if I accept the arguments for yayin (which I don't), why would Deuteronomy (14:25-26) allow for the purchase and consumption of shekar (acknowledged in the OP as strong alcohol) for both the supplicant and his household.


Billy Sunday used to preach hard against the 'liquor devil' as he called it. I stand with him and with every other preacher who remains faithful in this matter.
I've looked through my Bible a few times and I'm still unable to find the book of BillySunday. With all due respect to Mr Sunday, he is not God's law, and I'd have the same questions for him.

Slug1
Jul 16th 2008, 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by Yankee Candle http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1711578#post1711578)
Billy Sunday used to preach hard against the 'liquor devil' as he called it. I stand with him and with every other preacher who remains faithful in this matter.
Man teaching man instead of God teaching man.

So much scripture is brought out to include all the scripture showing us that Jesus consumed wine. I'll allow only God to teach me through His Word, not man teach me through his interpretation and personal opinion and agendas.

theothersock
Jul 22nd 2008, 08:01 AM
When does a glutton begin to become a glutton? The first bite?

BOOM.

Well said.

theothersock
Jul 22nd 2008, 08:06 AM
[/SIZE][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][COLOR=Black]3) If the prohibition is that clear and total (and obvious), why then is there no definitive law, like those concerning other Jewish dietary restrictions?


BOOM.

No need to tell Levites not to drink wine, if everyone is commanded not to drink wine. Even then they are commanded not to do so only in specific times.

ariel_jesus237
Jul 28th 2008, 02:21 AM
i still don't get WHY people seem to need to drink or have the right to drink alcohol... not ONE good reason have i found, even before I was saved I always thought it was stupid and wholeheartedly knew it was unhealthy and best to avoid it. even doctors say that just because one glass of wine a day or whatever is "healthy" that you shouldn't just start drinking a glass of wine a day because of the obvious health risks that outweigh the good parts.

HisLeast
Jul 28th 2008, 02:49 AM
i still don't get WHY people seem to need to drink or have the right to drink alcohol...

Luckily we're not discussing why people like to enjoy wine or beer. We're talking about whether or not scripture forbids it. And since scripture doesn't forbid it, the fact you don't understand why some of us enjoy it, is immaterial.

By the way, there's also no need to eat meat as a delivery vehicle for protein. Modern farming and grocers can offer you a wide range of vegetarian options to fully replace meat in your diet. There's not a single reason to support an industry treating animals so unethically. We have board members here who felt the same way before they were saved. Shall we bring them here to heap condemnation since they don't understand our eating of meat?


not ONE good reason have i found, even before I was saved I always thought it was stupid and wholeheartedly knew it was unhealthy and best to avoid it. even doctors say that just because one glass of wine a day or whatever is "healthy" that you shouldn't just start drinking a glass of wine a day because of the obvious health risks that outweigh the good parts.

Do you even have an open mind on it?

Semi-tortured
Jul 28th 2008, 05:00 PM
i still don't get WHY people seem to need to drink or have the right to drink alcohol... not ONE good reason have i found, even before I was saved I always thought it was stupid and wholeheartedly knew it was unhealthy and best to avoid it. even doctors say that just because one glass of wine a day or whatever is "healthy" that you shouldn't just start drinking a glass of wine a day because of the obvious health risks that outweigh the good parts.

To be honest, the health risks that come with drinking a glass of wine are probably about even as it pertains to trade off. But I don't drink it for health reasons. I love the taste of beer. It is a great compliment to some of the foods I eat. I love grilling meat while drinking a refreshing beer during the summer. Also, I will admit that when you have a stressful day, a beer can relax you a bit. Its not like you lose control of anything or lose your thoughts, but one beer can take that edge off.

People will translate this into me using alcohol to solve my problems. Nice try. I'm talking about when you've been working hard all day and you come home tired, sore and just worn out. I can count on one hand how many drinks I have a week. If I crack open a beer and sit on the couch to watch a Laker game, is that ANY different than taking an Advil because I have a headache or back pain? People are so quick to condemn alcohol, but it was probably one of the earliest pain relievers we have.

Slug1
Jul 28th 2008, 05:05 PM
To be honest, the health risks that come with drinking a glass of wine are probably about even as it pertains to trade off. But I don't drink it for health reasons. I love the taste of beer. It is a great compliment to some of the foods I eat. I love grilling meat while drinking a refreshing beer during the summer. Also, I will admit that when you have a stressful day, a beer can relax you a bit. Its not like you lose control of anything or lose your thoughts, but one beer can take that edge off.

People will translate this into me using alcohol to solve my problems. Nice try. I'm talking about when you've been working hard all day and you come home tired, sore and just worn out. I can count on one hand how many drinks I have a week. If I crack open a beer and sit on the couch to watch a Laker game, is that ANY different than taking an Advil because I have a headache or back pain? People are so quick to condemn alcohol, but it was probably one of the earliest pain relievers we have.AMEN! As long as the beer is a microbrew :pp

RabbiKnife
Jul 28th 2008, 05:29 PM
Had a very nice lemoncello with pasta last week.

Did not get drunk, because that would be a sin.

But I enjoyed it very much, and I thanked God and blessed Him for providing it for me to enjoy.

Firefighter
Jul 28th 2008, 05:48 PM
Oh my! Here we go again...

If Jesus had drank grape juice as you suppose, he would have sinned. The wine that Jesus drank at the last supper would have had to been alcoholic, otherwise he would have sinned. When wine is made it produces yeast starting at the moment the grapes are pressed. Partaking of yeast during the passover was prohibited. When wine achieves 12% ABV, the alcohol kills off the yeast making acceptable for the Passover Feast. Considering the Passover was about 6-9 months AFTER the harvest, and keeping in mind that they had no means of pasturizing or refridgeration, it becomes obvious that the wine was indeed alcoholic.

Until you can explain that one, I really can't take your argument seriously.

Concerning your "wine is a mocker" scripture in Proverbs, here's another from the same book...

Pro 31:6-7 Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.

Gentile
Jul 29th 2008, 01:34 PM
i still don't get WHY people seem to need to drink or have the right to drink alcohol... not ONE good reason have i found, even before I was saved I always thought it was stupid and wholeheartedly knew it was unhealthy and best to avoid it. even doctors say that just because one glass of wine a day or whatever is "healthy" that you shouldn't just start drinking a glass of wine a day because of the obvious health risks that outweigh the good parts.


I don't know why people moan and complain and think they are always so high and mighty on this board. Hmmmm..

Maybe some people in this world actually enjoy the taste of wine or beer. I know a few people that collect wine and make wine strictly as their hobby and brings much satisfaction to them.

Slug1
Jul 29th 2008, 01:42 PM
Not to mention the Bible specifically informs us when to drink alcohol for certin medical problems or situations. All of them I've seen in this thread.

So IMO to tell a person NOT to drink wine or an alcoholic beverage is based on "opinion" and not scripture. I understand there is scritpure not to abuse alcohol but that doesn't mean, NOT to drink alcohol.

Firefighter
Jul 29th 2008, 01:58 PM
Alcohol is like sex. It is a gift from God. It is shown as a sign of great blessings many times throughout scripture. If we use it in a manner that is not according to scripture it becomes bad, and yes you can become addicted to it. The tee-totalers would have you to believe that is reason enough to stay away from wine, but I would be willing to bet that even though sex has all of the same pitfalls as alcohol, they don't abstain from it.

God has given us all things. Let us enjoy them in a manner that is becoming of children of the King.

Slug1
Jul 29th 2008, 02:01 PM
Alcohol is like sex. It is a gift from God. It is shown as a sign of great blessings many times throughout scripture. If we use it in a manner that is not according to scripture it becomes bad, and yes you can become addicted to it. The tee-totalers would have you to believe that is reason enough to stay away from wine, but I would be willing to bet that even though sex has all of the same pitfalls as alcohol, they don't abstain from it.

God has given us all things. Let us enjoy them in a manner that is becoming of children of the King.Amen !

Gentile
Jul 29th 2008, 02:59 PM
I wish I can find this interview someone did with C.S. Lewis. He said something in the matter of he doesnt deprive himself of a strong drink and a nice cigar among friends or by himself. He said take some of the pleasures of life and enjoy them. Anyways it was a very good article showing the different side of him. He loved venturing into different bars and just observing and enjoying a few drinks with people.

Reynolds357
Jul 29th 2008, 03:11 PM
When dealing with alcohol, moderation and motive are the deciding factors as to whether or not it is sin. Are you drinking a glass of wine with a meal because of its health benefits? Are you drinking beer at a party to "fit in" with the worldly crowd that is there? Are you drinking wine with your boss at a business function because you feel it is expected of you? In my mind, situation 1 is drastically different than situation 2 and 3.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 29th 2008, 03:13 PM
To be honest, the health risks that come with drinking a glass of wine are probably about even as it pertains to trade off. But I don't drink it for health reasons. I love the taste of beer. It is a great compliment to some of the foods I eat. I love grilling meat while drinking a refreshing beer during the summer. Also, I will admit that when you have a stressful day, a beer can relax you a bit. Its not like you lose control of anything or lose your thoughts, but one beer can take that edge off.

People will translate this into me using alcohol to solve my problems. Nice try. I'm talking about when you've been working hard all day and you come home tired, sore and just worn out. I can count on one hand how many drinks I have a week. If I crack open a beer and sit on the couch to watch a Laker game, is that ANY different than taking an Advil because I have a headache or back pain? People are so quick to condemn alcohol, but it was probably one of the earliest pain relievers we have.

It's also a healthier pain reliever than modern medication.

Regardless - and I will stick to this - if you are drinking light beer of any form or drinking a major domesticated brand, then you are sinning in the eyes of God. God says to do all things for His glory and I simply have a hard time believing that drinking anything other than a microbrew dark beer is glorifying to God.
;)

tt1106
Jul 29th 2008, 03:14 PM
Amen.
Moderation is the key.

Firefighter
Jul 29th 2008, 03:17 PM
I was walking in the housing projects one Friday night at about 11pm and some gangbangers were blocking my path. As one of them opened a fresh cold one he mockingly said "Preacher, want some beer?" I said "Sure! Thanks." then took the newly opened bottle out of his hand took a big swig and handed it back to him. They were immediately stunned. I sat there for the next two and a half hours talking to them about God and how much He desire to have a relationship with them through Jesus Christ. One of those young men has now quit the gang and is a member of my church.

P.S. I do not like beer that much, much less the cheap malt liquor they were drinking that night.

Semi-tortured
Jul 29th 2008, 04:55 PM
It's also a healthier pain reliever than modern medication.

Regardless - and I will stick to this - if you are drinking light beer of any form or drinking a major domesticated brand, then you are sinning in the eyes of God. God says to do all things for His glory and I simply have a hard time believing that drinking anything other than a microbrew dark beer is glorifying to God.
;)

:lol:

Believe me. I'm a total beer snob. Microbrews FTW! Heck, I won't even drink some brews if they're in the bottle. A can? :no:

HisLeast
Jul 29th 2008, 05:11 PM
Regardless - and I will stick to this - if you are drinking light beer of any form or drinking a major domesticated brand, then you are sinning in the eyes of God. God says to do all things for His glory and I simply have a hard time believing that drinking anything other than a microbrew dark beer is glorifying to God.
;)

"Domestic" for me is Molson Canadian and Labatt Blue. Is it still a sin if one does not live within one's own national borders anymore (hence, not domestic)?

apothanein kerdos
Jul 29th 2008, 06:09 PM
"Domestic" for me is Molson Canadian and Labatt Blue. Is it still a sin if one does not live within one's own national borders anymore (hence, not domestic)?

I've never had the two, but if they taste anything like Bud, Coors, or Miller, then yes, it's a sin.

Slug1
Jul 29th 2008, 07:08 PM
Beer discussions can continue in this thread, thanks to HisLeast... which I bumped: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=59572


Please keep this thread on topic.

Thanks!

ServantofTruth
Jul 29th 2008, 07:42 PM
BOOM.

No need to tell Levites not to drink wine, if everyone is commanded not to drink wine. Even then they are commanded not to do so only in specific times.


1 Peter chapter 2:verse 9 - But you are God's chosen and special people. You are a group of royal priests and a holy nation.

How about Exodus 19 around verse 6, just before the 10 commandments - The whole world is mine, but you will be my holy nation and serve me as priests.


If we are the New Israel, if we are the New Chosen of God, his Holy Nation called out of His World and if we are a 'group of royal priests' .....


It gives a whole new meaning to the alcohol laws for those priests and other catergeries of chosen people! :)



BIG SofTy In the zone tonight! :o

apothanein kerdos
Jul 29th 2008, 07:59 PM
1 Peter chapter 2:verse 9 - But you are God's chosen and special people. You are a group of royal priests and a holy nation.

How about Exodus 19 around verse 6, just before the 10 commandments - The whole world is mine, but you will be my holy nation and serve me as priests.


If we are the New Israel, if we are the New Chosen of God, his Holy Nation called out of His World and if we are a 'group of royal priests' .....


It gives a whole new meaning to the alcohol laws for those priests and other catergeries of chosen people! :)



BIG SofTy In the zone tonight! :o
We're not though. We're not physical Israel. We're not Levitical priests. We're not chosen in the way Israel was. So the point you're trying to make doesn't work.

ServantofTruth
Jul 30th 2008, 12:09 AM
I respect the fact that you hold that position, however i know it is a position held by many christians.

For my understanding of what you are saying - how do you understand 1 Peter chapter 2: verse 9 . Who are the Royal priests and Holy Nation mentioned?

I only posted the reply, because it seemed obvious, to help move the discuss on, and help a poster who whether i agreed with their previous comments or not - i felt needed a little love and support.

I feel the original post of saying some verses on alcohol refer to and seperate priests, nazarenes and others from the rest of God's children is a good one, but the whole arguement about drink doesn't hang on it. However we can clear up this line of thought quite quickly if people can tell us if they agree with you that we are not the new priests, nation of Israel etc.

This is not a you v me thing. Rather me posing a possibility that i know some christian hold. Please accept my love and may God's Holy Spirit continue to bless your reading of the Word of God and your posts. I hope we can become closer by this topic. :)



BIG SofTy Ego aside, i'm occassionally right. :bounce:

Firefighter
Jul 30th 2008, 12:50 AM
Heb 7:10-17 for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him. Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. For it is witnessed of him, "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek."


Since it is fairly obvious that the levitical priesthood has been done away with, it kind of invalidates the whole argument whouldn't you say? Unless of course they can prove that a priest after the order of Melchizedek was not allowed to drink wine.

Just another prooftext...

Prayin_saint
Jul 30th 2008, 03:14 AM
Whether or not you think they're well thought out, if you want to maintain that all alcohol consumption is sin, you MUST address them.

1) Scientifically speaking, how could Jews have drunk grape juice at passover that wasn't fermented? (hint: its impossible)? Alternatively, how did Jesus produce old grape juice @ Cana that was unfermented? (hint: old grape juice IS fermented)
2) Why would the bible bother making specific role prohibitions (Levite priests, kings, church elders, and Nazarenes) if the prohibition was general and total?
3) If the prohibition is that clear and total (and obvious), why then is there no definitive law, like those concerning other Jewish dietary restrictions?

I ask you to be the honest believer you accuse me of not being and answer these questions.

Incidentally, your definition of intoxication is also skewed. Consuming poison can be intoxicating, but intoxication can occur in typically banal harmless substances. Water Intoxication is a great example. In fact, consume anything in enough quantity and you can acquire some type of intoxication.

Proverbs 20:1 - Describes what the abuse of wine looks like.
Proverbs 23:23-30 - "those who LINGER LONG over wine"
Proverbs 31:4-5 - Specific prohibition for Kings. I quite agree.
Habbakuk 2:15 - Don't get your neighbour drunk so you can watch him "in his nakedness/shame (translations vary). Essentially, don't get people drunk to watch them be goof balls. Again, its not a general prohibition.
Ephesians 5:18 - Don't get drunk

I'd list several scriptures of my own but its clear from the OP that anyone who disagrees with his application of 'yayin' is ONLY trying to justify sin. Suffice it to say, a good number of lexical experts disagree with his translation. Even 1 Samuel 25:36,37 Nabal was drunk off 'yayin'. I understand that makes things difficult, because if yayin CAN be viewed as fermented, then you have to address the other scriptures showing it positively. But even if I accept the arguments for yayin (which I don't), why would Deuteronomy (14:25-26) allow for the purchase and consumption of shekar (acknowledged in the OP as strong alcohol) for both the supplicant and his household.


Just drawing attention to this post again. I thought it was an excellent, concise look at the counter-arguments to the OP(s) and think for any real discussion to continue it ought to be addressed by those who hold the opposite view.

Curious to keep reading,
Sarah :hug:

Studyin'2Show
Jul 30th 2008, 04:07 PM
I was walking in the housing projects one Friday night at about 11pm and some gangbangers were blocking my path. As one of them opened a fresh cold one he mockingly said "Preacher, want some beer?" I said "Sure! Thanks." then took the newly opened bottle out of his hand took a big swig and handed it back to him. They were immediately stunned. I sat there for the next two and a half hours talking to them about God and how much He desire to have a relationship with them through Jesus Christ. One of those young men has now quit the gang and is a member of my church.

P.S. I do not like beer that much, much less the cheap malt liquor they were drinking that night.It seems this got missed by most since there have been no comments. I think this puts a lot into perspective. Think of the opportunity many would have missed to share the Gospel with those who are lost.

God Bless!

Firefighter
Jul 31st 2008, 01:38 AM
Considering I am a 35 year old white pastor with a strong southern draw, and they were members of the East Coast Bloods in the housing projects, it was nothing short of a miracle...:bounce:

Brother Mark
Jul 31st 2008, 02:49 AM
Considering I am a 35 year old white pastor with a strong southern draw, and they were members of the East Coast Bloods in the housing projects, it was nothing short of a miracle...:bounce:

I had a friend in the Army that experienced something similar. A group of soldiers invited him to their room and offered him a beer. God told him to drink it. Then they began asking him about Jesus. They had watched him and wanted to know what was going on inside my friend. God later pointed that had he refused the beer, they would have been more guarded and less relaxed. Him drinking it simply took away pretense and condemnation about something that isn't a sin to begin with.

Reynolds357
Aug 1st 2008, 01:40 AM
Considering I am a 35 year old white pastor with a strong southern draw, and they were members of the East Coast Bloods in the housing projects, it was nothing short of a miracle...:bounce:
it is amazing how God works when we do not "put Him in a box."

Firefighter
Aug 1st 2008, 02:17 AM
We have to be willing to heed the Holy Spirit EVEN when it goes against everything we think we know. I learned this lesson one Sunday while riding around trying to pick everyone up for church. A fellow minister and I stopped at a closed down gas station where there were several homeless guys sitting on the corner drinking beer. I pulled up, and the other minister rolled down the window and asked if they were interested in coming to church. Most of them just shook their heads no, but one held up his 40 oz beer and said “Not today, I am drinking.” Without missing a beat, the minister who was riding with me told him to bring it with him. I almost fell out of my seat. I know and trust my friend, but did he just tell someone to get on the church van drinking a beer? It was completely out of character for him to say something like that and I knew he had a real problem with alcohol, so I decided to trust his judgment and have faith in the fact that he was being led by the Spirit. We finished picking up the rest of the people and headed back to the church. The guy chugged down most of his beer, set his beer down right outside the doors and walked in.

During the course of the service, he was convicted by the message of the gospel and gave his heart and life to Jesus Christ. He was sobered up and an immediate change was noticeable. He walked out of the doors after service, picked up his beer bottle and threw it away. He quit drinking that day, made amends with his family and put his life back together. I never thought much more about that day.

A month later, immediately after a service, a guy walked into my church and said “Some white guy is outside puking all over the place.”

“Great.” I thought sarcastically. It was one of those times I wished I wasn’t the pastor. As I walked outside to check on the man, I saw him setting on a brick wall surrounding a flower bed. He was pale and his hands were shaking violently. I though he was going through withdrawals from coming off of drugs. I asked if he was “ok”. He then told me that he was dying of cancer. He continued by saying he had called his wife that morning to tell her goodbye because he was planning on killing himself that day. He told me he was working up the nerve to do it when I drove up. He said he had gone to church a week before and was asked to leave before he made it inside. The pastor of the church had told him he would be welcome to come back if he would get his hair cut. He told me that he thought that God didn’t even love him and after that was when he decided to take his own life. He stopped for a minute and looked up at me. He asked me if I remembered the first time we had met. I apologized and tried to explain how many people I meet in a week’s time only to be cut off by him again. He told me we had met a month ago at the gas station. He reminded me of the day the guy who got on the bus with his beer; he was sitting right beside the other guy when we invited him to church. It was the reason he decided to put off killing himself long enough to give God another chance. He said he knew we were different because of the day a month before.

I invited him back into the church and he gave his life to the Lord. He has since got off the streets, went back to his family and is determined to let God determine when his life is over. It was a moment that would radically change me and my ministry forever. It was also a blatant reminder that the world is watching us. I often wonder who that other pastor was that refused him entry into his church. I wonder if he will ever know the possible consequences of his actions that day.

renthead188
Aug 2nd 2008, 06:52 AM
We have to be willing to heed the Holy Spirit EVEN when it goes against everything we think we know. I learned this lesson one Sunday while riding around trying to pick everyone up for church. A fellow minister and I stopped at a closed down gas station where there were several homeless guys sitting on the corner drinking beer. I pulled up, and the other minister rolled down the window and asked if they were interested in coming to church. Most of them just shook their heads no, but one held up his 40 oz beer and said “Not today, I am drinking.” Without missing a beat, the minister who was riding with me told him to bring it with him. I almost fell out of my seat. I know and trust my friend, but did he just tell someone to get on the church van drinking a beer? It was completely out of character for him to say something like that and I knew he had a real problem with alcohol, so I decided to trust his judgment and have faith in the fact that he was being led by the Spirit. We finished picking up the rest of the people and headed back to the church. The guy chugged down most of his beer, set his beer down right outside the doors and walked in.

During the course of the service, he was convicted by the message of the gospel and gave his heart and life to Jesus Christ. He was sobered up and an immediate change was noticeable. He walked out of the doors after service, picked up his beer bottle and threw it away. He quit drinking that day, made amends with his family and put his life back together. I never thought much more about that day.

A month later, immediately after a service, a guy walked into my church and said “Some white guy is outside puking all over the place.”

“Great.” I thought sarcastically. It was one of those times I wished I wasn’t the pastor. As I walked outside to check on the man, I saw him setting on a brick wall surrounding a flower bed. He was pale and his hands were shaking violently. I though he was going through withdrawals from coming off of drugs. I asked if he was “ok”. He then told me that he was dying of cancer. He continued by saying he had called his wife that morning to tell her goodbye because he was planning on killing himself that day. He told me he was working up the nerve to do it when I drove up. He said he had gone to church a week before and was asked to leave before he made it inside. The pastor of the church had told him he would be welcome to come back if he would get his hair cut. He told me that he thought that God didn’t even love him and after that was when he decided to take his own life. He stopped for a minute and looked up at me. He asked me if I remembered the first time we had met. I apologized and tried to explain how many people I meet in a week’s time only to be cut off by him again. He told me we had met a month ago at the gas station. He reminded me of the day the guy who got on the bus with his beer; he was sitting right beside the other guy when we invited him to church. It was the reason he decided to put off killing himself long enough to give God another chance. He said he knew we were different because of the day a month before.

I invited him back into the church and he gave his life to the Lord. He has since got off the streets, went back to his family and is determined to let God determine when his life is over. It was a moment that would radically change me and my ministry forever. It was also a blatant reminder that the world is watching us. I often wonder who that other pastor was that refused him entry into his church. I wonder if he will ever know the possible consequences of his actions that day.

I want to thank you for sharing the gas station story with me. I am encouraged by this and it matches with what God just showed me this evening.

Drinking isn't inherentily sinful... so don't hesitate if an unbeliever offers you a drink. Accept it and thank him! Use the opportunity to glorify the Lord. Don't indulge yourself, mind you, but be thankful and enjoy a beer with the man. Seeking after alcohol, however, is sinful. The line is often quite thin and sometimes, many times, it's better off to play it safe.

God rocks - He showed me this just a few minutes ago.

Firefighter
Aug 4th 2008, 02:39 AM
1 Corinthians 10:27-33 If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience. But if someone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience-- I do not mean your conscience, but his. For why should my liberty be determined by someone else's conscience? If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks? So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.