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Roelof
Jul 15th 2008, 03:45 AM
1. RAPTURE BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION

New Nave’s Topical Bible on Rapture:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.(1Th 1:10)[Rapture before the Great Tribulation]

Rev 12:5 (Barnes Notes on the Bible)
And she brought forth a man child - Representing, according to the view above taken, the church in its increase and prosperity - as if a child were born that was to rule over all nations. See the notes on Rev_12:2.


----------------------------------------------------

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

John Wesley’s Notes:
1Th 1:10 Whom he hath raised from the dead - In proof of his future coming to judgment. Who delivereth us - He redeemed us once; he delivers us continually; and will deliver all that believe from the wrath, the eternal vengeance, which will then come upon the ungodly.

John Wesley's Notes on 1 Th 4:17
1Th 4:17- Together - In the same moment. In the air - The wicked will remain beneath, while the righteous, being absolved, shall be assessors with their Lord in the judgment. With the Lord - In heaven.

Barnes Notes on the Bible: 1 Th 4:17

Shall be caught up - The word here used implies that there will be the application of external force or power by which this will be done. It will not be by any power of ascending which they will themselves have; or by any tendency of their raised or changed bodies to ascend of their own accord, or even by any effort of their own will, but by a power applied to them which will cause them to rise. Compare the use of the word ἁρπάζωharpazō in Mat_11:12, “the violent take it by force;” Mat_13:19, “then cometh the wicked one and snatcheth away;” Joh_6:15, “that they would come and take him by force; Joh_10:12, “the wolf catcheth them;” Act_8:39, “the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip; 2Co_12:2, “such an one caught up to the third heaven;” also, Joh_12:28-29; Act_23:10; Jud_1:23; Rev_12:5. The verb does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament In all these instances there is the idea of either foreign force or violence effecting that which is done. What force or power is to be applied in causing the living and the dead to ascend, is not expressed. Whether it is to be by the ministry of angels, or by the direct power of the Son of God, is not intimated, though the latter seems to be most probable. The word should not be construed, however. as implying that there will be any reluctance on the part of the saints to appear before the Saviour, but merely with reference to the physical fact that power will be necessary to elevate them to meet him in the air. Will their, bodies then be such that they will have the power of locomotion at will from place to place?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV Bible Commentary)

Likewise first, means that this resurrection occurs before the Rapture. Verse 17 indicates the third item in order; “then” means the next thing in order after their resurrection. We which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them. It is important to note that the whole church {true believers}, including those who have died prior to this event, as well as those who are still alive, is caught up together. There is no advantage either way. It is from the word caught up (Gr harpazoµ) in the Latin translation we get our word “rapture.”

Matthew Henry’s Commentary on 1 Th4:17

They shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, 1Th_4:17. At, or immediately before, this rapture into the clouds, those who are alive will undergo a mighty change, which will be equivalent to dying. This change is so mysterious that we cannot comprehend it: we know little or nothing of it, 1Co_15:51. Only, in the general, this mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies will be made fit to inherit the kingdom of God, which flesh and blood in its present state are not capable of. This change will be in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye(1Co_15:52), in the very instant, or not long after the raising up of those that sleep in Jesus. And those who are raised, and thus changed, shall meet together in the clouds, and there meet with their Lord, to congratulate him on his coming, to receive the crown of glory he will then bestow upon them, and to be assessors with him in judgment, approving and applauding the sentence he will then pass upon the prince of the power of the air, and all the wicked, who shall be doomed to destruction with the devil and his angels. (4.) Here is the bliss of the saints at that day: they shall be ever with the Lord, 1Th_4:17. It will be some part of their felicity that all the saints shall meet together, and remain together for ever; but the principal happiness of heaven is this, to be with the Lord, to see him, live with him, and enjoy him, for ever. This should comfort the saints upon the death of their friends, that, although death has made a separation, yet their souls and bodies will meet again; we and they shall meet together again: we and they shall meet together again: we and they with all the saints shall meet our Lord, and be with him for ever, no more to be separated wither from him or from one another for ever.

Rev. Clarence Larkin on the Rapture
See charts in e-sword on the Rapture and Second Coming.

Also read:

Twelve Reasons for the Rapture (prof. Johan Malan, South Africa)
http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Rapturereasons.htm (http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Rapturereasons.htm)


2. GLORIOUS SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AFTER ARMAGEDDON

And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other peoples, but it shall crush and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. (Dan 2:44, KJV)

Now the prophecy primarily respects the events near at hand - the destruction of Jerusalem, the period of the Jewish church and state, the calling of the Gentiles, and the setting up of Christ's kingdom in the world; (Matt 24:30, Matthew Henry Commentary)

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (Zec 14:4)

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever. (Rev 11:15)

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Rev 22:12)

PAROUSIA: THE COMING OF CHRIST (New Nave’s Topical Bible)

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mat 24:27, KJV)

But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mat 24:37)

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1Co 15:23)

For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? (1Th 2:19)

To the end he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. (1Th 3:13)

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (1Th 4:15)

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2Th 2:1)

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. (2Pe 1:16)

And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. (1Jn 2:28)

Rev. Clarence Larkin on the Second Coming:

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Mat 16:27)

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (Mat 25:31)

Also read:

The King Who Comes Again (prof. Johan Malan)
http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Kingcomes.htm (http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Kingcomes.htm)

Joe King
Jul 15th 2008, 05:53 AM
I believe that the LORD comes down to snatch us away, not Jesus. I know that he and the father are one but Matthew says that only the Father knows the hour:

Matthew 24:36
[ The Day and Hour Unknown ] "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

wpm
Jul 15th 2008, 06:08 AM
1. RAPTURE BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION

New Nave’s Topical Bible on Rapture:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.(1Th 1:10)[Rapture before the Great Tribulation]

Rev 12:5 (Barnes Notes on the Bible)
And she brought forth a man child - Representing, according to the view above taken, the church in its increase and prosperity - as if a child were born that was to rule over all nations. See the notes on Rev_12:2.


----------------------------------------------------

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

John Wesley’s Notes:
1Th 1:10 Whom he hath raised from the dead - In proof of his future coming to judgment. Who delivereth us - He redeemed us once; he delivers us continually; and will deliver all that believe from the wrath, the eternal vengeance, which will then come upon the ungodly.

John Wesley's Notes on 1 Th 4:17
1Th 4:17- Together - In the same moment. In the air - The wicked will remain beneath, while the righteous, being absolved, shall be assessors with their Lord in the judgment. With the Lord - In heaven.

Barnes Notes on the Bible: 1 Th 4:17

Shall be caught up - The word here used implies that there will be the application of external force or power by which this will be done. It will not be by any power of ascending which they will themselves have; or by any tendency of their raised or changed bodies to ascend of their own accord, or even by any effort of their own will, but by a power applied to them which will cause them to rise. Compare the use of the word ἁρπάζωharpazō in Mat_11:12, “the violent take it by force;” Mat_13:19, “then cometh the wicked one and snatcheth away;” Joh_6:15, “that they would come and take him by force; Joh_10:12, “the wolf catcheth them;” Act_8:39, “the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip; 2Co_12:2, “such an one caught up to the third heaven;” also, Joh_12:28-29; Act_23:10; Jud_1:23; Rev_12:5. The verb does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament In all these instances there is the idea of either foreign force or violence effecting that which is done. What force or power is to be applied in causing the living and the dead to ascend, is not expressed. Whether it is to be by the ministry of angels, or by the direct power of the Son of God, is not intimated, though the latter seems to be most probable. The word should not be construed, however. as implying that there will be any reluctance on the part of the saints to appear before the Saviour, but merely with reference to the physical fact that power will be necessary to elevate them to meet him in the air. Will their, bodies then be such that they will have the power of locomotion at will from place to place?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV Bible Commentary)

Likewise first, means that this resurrection occurs before the Rapture. Verse 17 indicates the third item in order; “then” means the next thing in order after their resurrection. We which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them. It is important to note that the whole church {true believers}, including those who have died prior to this event, as well as those who are still alive, is caught up together. There is no advantage either way. It is from the word caught up (Gr harpazoµ) in the Latin translation we get our word “rapture.”

Matthew Henry’s Commentary on 1 Th4:17

They shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, 1Th_4:17. At, or immediately before, this rapture into the clouds, those who are alive will undergo a mighty change, which will be equivalent to dying. This change is so mysterious that we cannot comprehend it: we know little or nothing of it, 1Co_15:51. Only, in the general, this mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies will be made fit to inherit the kingdom of God, which flesh and blood in its present state are not capable of. This change will be in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye(1Co_15:52), in the very instant, or not long after the raising up of those that sleep in Jesus. And those who are raised, and thus changed, shall meet together in the clouds, and there meet with their Lord, to congratulate him on his coming, to receive the crown of glory he will then bestow upon them, and to be assessors with him in judgment, approving and applauding the sentence he will then pass upon the prince of the power of the air, and all the wicked, who shall be doomed to destruction with the devil and his angels. (4.) Here is the bliss of the saints at that day: they shall be ever with the Lord, 1Th_4:17. It will be some part of their felicity that all the saints shall meet together, and remain together for ever; but the principal happiness of heaven is this, to be with the Lord, to see him, live with him, and enjoy him, for ever. This should comfort the saints upon the death of their friends, that, although death has made a separation, yet their souls and bodies will meet again; we and they shall meet together again: we and they shall meet together again: we and they with all the saints shall meet our Lord, and be with him for ever, no more to be separated wither from him or from one another for ever.

Rev. Clarence Larkin on the Rapture
See charts in e-sword on the Rapture and Second Coming.

Also read:

Twelve Reasons for the Rapture (prof. Johan Malan, South Africa)
http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Rapturereasons.htm (http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Rapturereasons.htm)


2. GLORIOUS SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AFTER ARMAGEDDON

And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other peoples, but it shall crush and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. (Dan 2:44, KJV)

Now the prophecy primarily respects the events near at hand - the destruction of Jerusalem, the period of the Jewish church and state, the calling of the Gentiles, and the setting up of Christ's kingdom in the world; (Matt 24:30, Matthew Henry Commentary)

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (Zec 14:4)

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever. (Rev 11:15)

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Rev 22:12)

PAROUSIA: THE COMING OF CHRIST (New Nave’s Topical Bible)

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mat 24:27, KJV)

But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mat 24:37)

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1Co 15:23)

For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? (1Th 2:19)

To the end he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. (1Th 3:13)

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (1Th 4:15)

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2Th 2:1)

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. (2Pe 1:16)

And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. (1Jn 2:28)

Rev. Clarence Larkin on the Second Coming:

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Mat 16:27)

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (Mat 25:31)

Also read:

The King Who Comes Again (prof. Johan Malan)
http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Kingcomes.htm (http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Kingcomes.htm)

Both of these are actually the same event. You are wrong to give the impression that Matthew Henry, John Wesley and Barnes believed in the Pretrib theory. They didn't. This was invented in 1830 by Darby.

Paul

Roelof
Jul 15th 2008, 06:30 AM
I believe that the LORD comes down to snatch us away, not Jesus. I know that he and the father are one but Matthew says that only the Father knows the hour:



Joe

Very interesting view point, I never thought of it in that way.

Bethany67
Jul 15th 2008, 07:15 AM
I believe that the LORD comes down to snatch us away, not Jesus. I know that he and the father are one but Matthew says that only the Father knows the hour:

Matthew 24:36
[ The Day and Hour Unknown ] "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

The way I see it, Jesus didn't know the day/hour while He was incarnated on earth; He did after all willingly (Phil 2) give up some of His divine qualities like omnipresence [doctrine of kenosis] when He entered space and time. I'd be surprised if the timescale was still a surprise to Him now?

Roelof
Jul 15th 2008, 11:25 AM
Both of these are actually the same event. You are wrong to give the impression that Matthew Henry, John Wesley and Barnes believed in the Pretrib theory. They didn't. This was invented in 1830 by Darby.

Paul

wpm

Please explain the bold (give links please)

Firstfruits
Jul 15th 2008, 01:30 PM
1. RAPTURE BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION

New Nave’s Topical Bible on Rapture:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.(1Th 1:10)[Rapture before the Great Tribulation]

Rev 12:5 (Barnes Notes on the Bible)
And she brought forth a man child - Representing, according to the view above taken, the church in its increase and prosperity - as if a child were born that was to rule over all nations. See the notes on Rev_12:2.


----------------------------------------------------

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

John Wesley’s Notes:
1Th 1:10 Whom he hath raised from the dead - In proof of his future coming to judgment. Who delivereth us - He redeemed us once; he delivers us continually; and will deliver all that believe from the wrath, the eternal vengeance, which will then come upon the ungodly.

John Wesley's Notes on 1 Th 4:17
1Th 4:17- Together - In the same moment. In the air - The wicked will remain beneath, while the righteous, being absolved, shall be assessors with their Lord in the judgment. With the Lord - In heaven.

Barnes Notes on the Bible: 1 Th 4:17

Shall be caught up - The word here used implies that there will be the application of external force or power by which this will be done. It will not be by any power of ascending which they will themselves have; or by any tendency of their raised or changed bodies to ascend of their own accord, or even by any effort of their own will, but by a power applied to them which will cause them to rise. Compare the use of the word ἁρπάζωharpazō in Mat_11:12, “the violent take it by force;” Mat_13:19, “then cometh the wicked one and snatcheth away;” Joh_6:15, “that they would come and take him by force; Joh_10:12, “the wolf catcheth them;” Act_8:39, “the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip; 2Co_12:2, “such an one caught up to the third heaven;” also, Joh_12:28-29; Act_23:10; Jud_1:23; Rev_12:5. The verb does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament In all these instances there is the idea of either foreign force or violence effecting that which is done. What force or power is to be applied in causing the living and the dead to ascend, is not expressed. Whether it is to be by the ministry of angels, or by the direct power of the Son of God, is not intimated, though the latter seems to be most probable. The word should not be construed, however. as implying that there will be any reluctance on the part of the saints to appear before the Saviour, but merely with reference to the physical fact that power will be necessary to elevate them to meet him in the air. Will their, bodies then be such that they will have the power of locomotion at will from place to place?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV Bible Commentary)

Likewise first, means that this resurrection occurs before the Rapture. Verse 17 indicates the third item in order; “then” means the next thing in order after their resurrection. We which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them. It is important to note that the whole church {true believers}, including those who have died prior to this event, as well as those who are still alive, is caught up together. There is no advantage either way. It is from the word caught up (Gr harpazoµ) in the Latin translation we get our word “rapture.”

Matthew Henry’s Commentary on 1 Th4:17

They shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, 1Th_4:17. At, or immediately before, this rapture into the clouds, those who are alive will undergo a mighty change, which will be equivalent to dying. This change is so mysterious that we cannot comprehend it: we know little or nothing of it, 1Co_15:51. Only, in the general, this mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies will be made fit to inherit the kingdom of God, which flesh and blood in its present state are not capable of. This change will be in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye(1Co_15:52), in the very instant, or not long after the raising up of those that sleep in Jesus. And those who are raised, and thus changed, shall meet together in the clouds, and there meet with their Lord, to congratulate him on his coming, to receive the crown of glory he will then bestow upon them, and to be assessors with him in judgment, approving and applauding the sentence he will then pass upon the prince of the power of the air, and all the wicked, who shall be doomed to destruction with the devil and his angels. (4.) Here is the bliss of the saints at that day: they shall be ever with the Lord, 1Th_4:17. It will be some part of their felicity that all the saints shall meet together, and remain together for ever; but the principal happiness of heaven is this, to be with the Lord, to see him, live with him, and enjoy him, for ever. This should comfort the saints upon the death of their friends, that, although death has made a separation, yet their souls and bodies will meet again; we and they shall meet together again: we and they shall meet together again: we and they with all the saints shall meet our Lord, and be with him for ever, no more to be separated wither from him or from one another for ever.


The King Who Comes Again (prof. Johan Malan)
http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Kingcomes.htm (http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Kingcomes.htm)

According to the following, Jesus says he returns after the tribulation and it is then that he sends his angels to gather the saints.

Mt 24:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mt 24:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Does he also not state that when he comes it be judgment day, judgment day according to scripture is after the tribulation since that is when he returns.

Mt 25:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mt 25:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mt 25:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mt 25:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mt 25:41 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

This is what Jesus says will happen when he comes, why do we expect his return before the tribulation or before the millennium if that is not what we have been told?

Firstfruits

Literalist-Luke
Jul 15th 2008, 02:30 PM
Roelof, perhaps you'd be good enough to show us what, if anything, in any letter of Paul's requires the Rapture to be separate from the 2nd Coming.

wpm
Jul 15th 2008, 02:38 PM
wpm

Please explain the bold (give links please)

Try:

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/Is_The_Pretribulation_Rapture_Biblical.shtml

Paul

John146
Jul 15th 2008, 03:35 PM
1. RAPTURE BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION

New Nave’s Topical Bible on Rapture:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.(1Th 1:10)[Rapture before the Great Tribulation]

Rev 12:5 (Barnes Notes on the Bible)
And she brought forth a man child - Representing, according to the view above taken, the church in its increase and prosperity - as if a child were born that was to rule over all nations. See the notes on Rev_12:2.


----------------------------------------------------

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [G726: catch away (rapture): plugged, pulled, take] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

John Wesley’s Notes:
1Th 1:10 Whom he hath raised from the dead - In proof of his future coming to judgment. Who delivereth us - He redeemed us once; he delivers us continually; and will deliver all that believe from the wrath, the eternal vengeance, which will then come upon the ungodly.

John Wesley's Notes on 1 Th 4:17
1Th 4:17- Together - In the same moment. In the air - The wicked will remain beneath, while the righteous, being absolved, shall be assessors with their Lord in the judgment. With the Lord - In heaven.

Barnes Notes on the Bible: 1 Th 4:17

Shall be caught up - The word here used implies that there will be the application of external force or power by which this will be done. It will not be by any power of ascending which they will themselves have; or by any tendency of their raised or changed bodies to ascend of their own accord, or even by any effort of their own will, but by a power applied to them which will cause them to rise. Compare the use of the word ἁρπάζωharpazō in Mat_11:12, “the violent take it by force;” Mat_13:19, “then cometh the wicked one and snatcheth away;” Joh_6:15, “that they would come and take him by force; Joh_10:12, “the wolf catcheth them;” Act_8:39, “the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip; 2Co_12:2, “such an one caught up to the third heaven;” also, Joh_12:28-29; Act_23:10; Jud_1:23; Rev_12:5. The verb does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament In all these instances there is the idea of either foreign force or violence effecting that which is done. What force or power is to be applied in causing the living and the dead to ascend, is not expressed. Whether it is to be by the ministry of angels, or by the direct power of the Son of God, is not intimated, though the latter seems to be most probable. The word should not be construed, however. as implying that there will be any reluctance on the part of the saints to appear before the Saviour, but merely with reference to the physical fact that power will be necessary to elevate them to meet him in the air. Will their, bodies then be such that they will have the power of locomotion at will from place to place?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV Bible Commentary)

Likewise first, means that this resurrection occurs before the Rapture. Verse 17 indicates the third item in order; “then” means the next thing in order after their resurrection. We which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them. It is important to note that the whole church {true believers}, including those who have died prior to this event, as well as those who are still alive, is caught up together. There is no advantage either way. It is from the word caught up (Gr harpazoµ) in the Latin translation we get our word “rapture.”

Matthew Henry’s Commentary on 1 Th4:17

They shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, 1Th_4:17. At, or immediately before, this rapture into the clouds, those who are alive will undergo a mighty change, which will be equivalent to dying. This change is so mysterious that we cannot comprehend it: we know little or nothing of it, 1Co_15:51. Only, in the general, this mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies will be made fit to inherit the kingdom of God, which flesh and blood in its present state are not capable of. This change will be in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye(1Co_15:52), in the very instant, or not long after the raising up of those that sleep in Jesus. And those who are raised, and thus changed, shall meet together in the clouds, and there meet with their Lord, to congratulate him on his coming, to receive the crown of glory he will then bestow upon them, and to be assessors with him in judgment, approving and applauding the sentence he will then pass upon the prince of the power of the air, and all the wicked, who shall be doomed to destruction with the devil and his angels. (4.) Here is the bliss of the saints at that day: they shall be ever with the Lord, 1Th_4:17. It will be some part of their felicity that all the saints shall meet together, and remain together for ever; but the principal happiness of heaven is this, to be with the Lord, to see him, live with him, and enjoy him, for ever. This should comfort the saints upon the death of their friends, that, although death has made a separation, yet their souls and bodies will meet again; we and they shall meet together again: we and they shall meet together again: we and they with all the saints shall meet our Lord, and be with him for ever, no more to be separated wither from him or from one another for ever.Why are you quoting Wesley, Barnes and Henry when none of them believed in pre-trib? It seems rather ironic that you try to give evidence for your view by quoting from people who didn't even agree with your view. :rolleyes:

Roelof
Jul 15th 2008, 03:39 PM
Roelof, perhaps you'd be good enough to show us what, if anything, in any letter of Paul's requires the Rapture to be separate from the 2nd Coming.

We have one Holy Bible, but with a 1 000 000 interpretations of it.
In my original thread I gave the view points of highly respected Study Bibles and Commentaries, as well as that of prof. Johan Malan, a local university expert.

If this does not fit the believes of some readers, then I can not help it.

I will do some more studies into the subject and report later on.

Roelof
Jul 15th 2008, 05:35 PM
Both of these are actually the same event. You are wrong to give the impression that Matthew Henry, John Wesley and Barnes believed in the Pretrib theory. They didn't. This was invented in 1830 by Darby.

Paul

Try:

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/es...Biblical.shtml (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/Is_The_Pretribulation_Rapture_Biblical.shtml)

Paul
------------------------------------

Paul

I did not create impressions, I just quoted some commentators. Who invented the Pre-Trib theory is not important to me.

There are more than 11 million web articles on Google for Rapture, all with different view points and opinions. Which articles one believes, is a matter of choice and belief.

IBWatching
Jul 15th 2008, 08:17 PM
Both of these are actually the same event. You are wrong to give the impression that Matthew Henry, John Wesley and Barnes believed in the Pretrib theory. They didn't. This was invented in 1830 by Darby.

Paul

If Darby invented anything, it was dispensationalism. Pre-tribulational thought does not need dispensationalism to survive, as some have misstated. Darby saw the same thing from Scripture as I did/do. The sharp distinction between Israel and their Covenants and the Church and It's Promises which is being being Built by Jesus Christ today. The rest is human construction and as such is prone to error.

It's the same with the topic of this thread. So many different views and ideas about Jesus' "coming" with so many who don't even understand what the word means in Scripture. That's what causes the confusion. While I agree with the OP about the two events being separate, it is not for the same reason(ing).

wpm
Jul 15th 2008, 08:43 PM
If Darby invented anything, it was dispensationalism. Pre-tribulational thought does not need dispensationalism to survive, as some have misstated. Darby saw the same thing from Scripture as I did/do. The sharp distinction between Israel and their Covenants and the Church and It's Promises which is being being Built by Jesus Christ today. The rest is human construction and as such is prone to error.

It's the same with the topic of this thread. So many different views and ideas about Jesus' "coming" with so many who don't even understand what the word means in Scripture. That's what causes the confusion. While I agree with the OP about the two events being separate, it is not for the same reason(ing).


Of course I disagree. The New Testament makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time.

Paul

IBWatching
Jul 15th 2008, 09:20 PM
Of course I disagree. The New Testament makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time.

Paul

And I, of course, disagree with you. :)

RevLogos
Jul 15th 2008, 09:55 PM
wpm

Please explain the bold (give links please)

There are no references to a pre-trib view in any writings prior to 1830. None of the early church fathers taught it. In 1830 a young girl by the name of Margaret MacDonald in Scotland, had a dream or vision where she saw Christians raptured just prior to the Great Tribulation. A Presbyterian pastor in London, Edward Irving, heard about this and started teaching it to his congregation.

John Darby, who was the founder of a group known as the Plymouth Brethren, visited MacDonald and also began teaching this new theory. By 1917 a new edition of the Scofield Reference Bible was published, containing the dispensational pre-tribulation theory of Darby and others. Pretty soon it is preached by the Moody Bible Institute and the Dallas Theological Seminary. It was further popularized by Hal Lindsey (who had attended the Dallas Theological Seminary) in the book “The Late Great Planet Earth” published in 1970. Since then the theory has become widely accepted.

Just because it came about from a young girl’s vision in 1830 doesn’t necessarily make it wrong. But neither does widespread acceptance make it true. We must always ask, what does the Word of God say?

wpm
Jul 15th 2008, 10:03 PM
And I, of course, disagree with you. :)

Ephesians 2:11-19 declares, “Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth (or citizenship)of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

Jews and Gentiles are unified together in this passage on the grounds of “the blood of Christ.” This is the only means of cleansing and freedom God knows or accepts. A Gentile is said to be united to the true Israelite. They are said to be “fellowcitizens.”

Paul

IBWatching
Jul 15th 2008, 10:14 PM
Ephesians 2:11-19 declares, “Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth (or citizenship)of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

Jews and Gentiles are unified together in this passage on the grounds of “the blood of Christ.” This is the only means of cleansing and freedom God knows or accepts. A Gentile is said to be united to the true Israelite. They are said to be “fellowcitizens.”

Paul

Please explain the difference between the Church and OT saints as seen by the author of Hebrews:


Hebrews 11:39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

In what way are we better off than OT saints?

David Taylor
Jul 15th 2008, 10:32 PM
In what way are we better off than OT saints?

The OT saints only had the promises to listen to and learn about.

The Saints the Hebrews writer is addressing, who were living in the 1st Century A.D. were much better off because...."we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us"

They beheld with their own eyes, touched with their own hands, and were living breathing eye-witnesses to GOD ALMIGHTY walking among themselves.

Wow.....the dimly imagined promises the OT Saints yearned for, they held and saw and looked upon with their very own hands, ears, and eyes!!!

That's what the Hebrews listening audience had better than...over the OT saints of old.

Joe King
Jul 15th 2008, 11:17 PM
The way I see it, Jesus didn't know the day/hour while He was incarnated on earth; He did after all willingly (Phil 2) give up some of His divine qualities like omnipresence [doctrine of kenosis] when He entered space and time. I'd be surprised if the timescale was still a surprise to Him now?

That makes sense also.

My heart's Desire
Jul 16th 2008, 03:44 AM
Both of these are actually the same event. You are wrong to give the impression that Matthew Henry, John Wesley and Barnes believed in the Pretrib theory. They didn't. This was invented in 1830 by Darby.

PaulI don't think Darby invented it. He did make it popular as I've read somewhere but he did not invent it. And as I've heard somewhere else, why would a great Bible Scholar listen to a young girls visions and base his theology on just that? Would you? Would not make sense to me either.

Roelof
Jul 16th 2008, 03:52 AM
The rest is human construction and as such is prone to error.

While I agree with the OP about the two events being separate, it is not for the same reason(ing).

There are no references to a pre-trib view in any writings prior to 1830. None of the early church fathers taught it. In 1830 a young girl by the name of Margaret MacDonald in Scotland, had a dream or vision where she saw Christians raptured just prior to the Great Tribulation. A Presbyterian pastor in London, Edward Irving, heard about this and started teaching it to his congregation. (Revolvr)


Thanks for your comments, I am still studying the subject and appreciate support.

quiet dove
Jul 16th 2008, 04:12 AM
There are no references to a pre-trib view in any writings prior to 1830. None of the early church fathers taught it. In 1830 a young girl by the name of Margaret MacDonald in Scotland, had a dream or vision where she saw Christians raptured just prior to the Great Tribulation. A Presbyterian pastor in London, Edward Irving, heard about this and started teaching it to his congregation. (Revolvr)


Thanks for your comments, I am still studying the subject and appreciate support.

Big surprise for ya Roelof, Margrete McDonald's vision wasn't pre trib and it is a vision that Darby rejected. I had it book marked but apparently lost it somewhere, google should bring it up.

--Thomas Collier (1674) makes a comment on pretrib though he rejects the view, but his statement does make it clear that the view was being taught.

Morgan Edwards
--wrote an essay while in at the Bristol Baptist Seminary in England 1742-44 which was published in 1788 "Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennial, Last-Novelties. Last Novelties refering to the new conditons of the future new heaven and earth.

Edwards wrote:
--The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years. I say, somewhat more—, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's "appearing in the air" (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium,

My heart's Desire
Jul 16th 2008, 04:15 AM
Here is a link to the vision. I hope it is the one though. http://bibleprophesy.org/vision.htm You may be able to find it by searching for her name + vision.

quiet dove
Jul 16th 2008, 04:21 AM
Here is a link to the vision. I hope it is the one though. http://bibleprophesy.org/vision.htm You may be able to find it by searching for her name + vision.

That looks like it. Thanks, I should have done that but I have posted the information before and it pretty much got ignored, thought I'd give it another shot.

Clifton
Jul 16th 2008, 04:52 AM
1. RAPTURE BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION

New Nave’s Topical Bible on Rapture:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17)

and to wait for His Son from Heaven (whom He raised from the dead), Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.(1Th 1:10)[Rapture before the Great Tribulation]

It is probably best to term it as "Second Advent" which consists of "phases" as opposed to the English word "coming" (though in a sense, it is not really an 'error' to say it like that, but just confusing).

When the Natzal (“rapture”) of the believers in Yeshua will take place, the context seems to indicate that it is a coming and it is not a coming. The Greek that underlies "coming" in some English versions of 1Thess 4:15 is not actually one of the various Greek verbs used, but instead, the noun, "Parousia."

In the instance here, for the Natzal, the Master will only descend but so far in the air, and catch up (or snatch up) saints "into the air". Basically, the term "Second coming" can be stated as consisting of different stages, but is best reserved as that stage happening after "The Birthpang’s of the Messiah “Week” (Chevlai shel Mashiach; Tribulation)", or, "the time of Jacob’s Trouble (Ya'acov's trouble)" which this "week" lasts for 7 years.

New words have always came up throughout history to refer to older terms earlier saints used and knew. They are not "new" beliefs, but just "new" words for old and ancient beliefs. Do you see the word "Trinity" in the Bible? ;)

Blessings.

My heart's Desire
Jul 16th 2008, 04:54 AM
That looks like it. Thanks, I should have done that but I have posted the information before and it pretty much got ignored, thought I'd give it another shot.
It also appears on the net in other places too. It seems that the controversy about this girl and Darby was, how do I put it made popular by a man who wrote a book trying to disprove the pre-trib doctrine. Just doing a search brings up the whole subject from many view points on origin and does make for interesting reading. Regardless, I've believed pre-trib most of my adult life not knowing a thing about Darby, Schofield or McDonald or even dispensationalism.

My heart's Desire
Jul 16th 2008, 04:57 AM
Big surprise for ya Roelof, Margrete McDonald's vision wasn't pre trib ,
That's what I've been reading also QD. They said it isn't pre-trib. And reading part of it myself, it looks as if she describes Christians going through the tribulation after the antichrist is revealed. Pretrib does not believe this.

TexasBeliever
Jul 16th 2008, 12:43 PM
Jesus always made a distinction between tribulation and wrath and so must we.
He said that while we were in the world we would have tribulation, ie trouble, persecution.

Concerning the last days He said He was coming back after the tribulation, at which time He would judge the earth in wrath and He never said He was coming at any time before this.

The early church fathers also made a distinction between tribulation and wrath and when refering to the last days spoke of the church suffering much.

It is only in the last 150 years or so that the idea that the church would not be here in the last days has been taught.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 16th 2008, 02:05 PM
The eschatology of the Early Church, after the deaths of the Apostles, was the direct result of the labor of the Apostles. One big advantage the Early Christians had over us is oral tradition. The Apostles not only wrote the New Testament books under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but they spent their lives teaching the Word of God to the next generation of Christians. A good illustration of the importance of oral tradition is found in 2 Thess. 2, where Paul wrote to the Thessalonian believers about the “Restrainer,” who was holding back the revelation of Antichrist. Paul wrote, “remember ye not, that when I was with you I told you these things. And now ye know what witholdeth...” [v. 5,6]. Unfortunately, Paul did not reveal the identity of the Restrainer in this passage, and we are left to guess just what he actually told the Thessalonians when he was with them.

The oral teaching of the Apostles, as well as the written Word of God, molded the thinking and theology of the earliest believers. And some of this personal instruction is reflected in the writings of the earliest of the Church Fathers, who either knew the Apostles personally, or were taught by those who were linked to the Apostles. For example, below I have quoted Ireneaus and Hippolytus rather extensively. Both of these men dealt with eschatology extensively, and both had a chain of linkage to the Apostle John who wrote Revelation. John personally discipled several men, including Papius, Ignatius, and Polycarp, the famous martyr. Polycarp was Bishop of the Church of Smyrna under John’s leadership, and was most likely the one to whom the letter to Smyrna was addressed in Revelation. Polycarp in turn discipled Irenaeus, who later became Bishop of the Church at Lyons, Gaul (France). Irenaeus conveyed some very intriguing oral tradition that John passed down through Polycarp, and his other disciples, regarding the nature of the Millennium (including some sayings of Jesus). Irenaeus, in his work Against Heresies, Book V, was the earliest writer (who’s works have survived) to deal with end-time prophecy in any depth. So, in Irenaeus we have both extensive treatment of eschatology, and a high degree of credibility due to his direct linkage to the Apostle John’s oral teaching.

Hippolytus, bishop of Portus, was a disciple of Irenaeus, and carried on his work of refuting heresies after Irenaeus’ martyrdom. Hippolytus’ eschatological work is even more extensive than Irenaeus’.

If Post-Trib is correct, that a uniform rapture view can be traced from Jesus through the Epistles and Revelation, then we would expect to find the same continuity in the writings of the post-apostolic Church. On the other hand, if pre-tribbers are correct in their theory, that Paul was given a new prophetic scenario for the Church, we would expect the post-apostolic Church (especially Gentiles to whom Paul was sent) to embrace this alleged pre-trib scheme, and to distinguish their eschatology from what Jesus taught in the Olivet Discourse. If the post-apostolic Christians display the kind of post-trib expectancy consistent with Jesus’ teaching in the Olivet Discourse, then pre-tribbers would be forced to the awkward conclusion that the Apostles failed in transmitting sound Christian teaching to the very next generation.

I do not want to give the impression that the eschatology of the Early Church was uniform throughout. There was some controversy, mainly concerning whether the Millennium should be understood literally. Most of the writers understood the Millennium as the literal reign of Christ and the saints on earth for 1,000 years after the second coming. But, those who favored allegorical interpretation (spiritualizing the Millennium) thought the 70th week (but not the tribulation) was already fulfilled. These were exclusively North African writers, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Julius Africanus (all of which were connected with the heretical Alexandrian school). Tertullian, also of North Africa (Carthage), thought the 70th week was past. Yet, like the orthodox writers, he still believed in a future tribulation and Antichrist, and a literal Millennium.
However, despite the disagreement over the nature of the Millennium, and how to interpret Daniel 9:27, there was absolutely no controversy regarding the timing of the rapture. All saw a future tribulation, a literal Antichrist who would persecute the Church, and all were post-tribulationists, seeing only one future coming of Christ after the tribulation.

I should clarify that I am not assigning the same level of authority to the early church writers as I would give to the Bible. Some of the writers I refer to carry greater weight than others, depending on their level of orthodoxy, and their linkage to Apostolic teaching. I present the following evidence only for its historical value, to illustrate how the next generations of Christians understood the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles. Due to the natural tendency for error to creep in and compound over time, I have limited my evidence to the Ante-Nicene period (from the Apostles until A.D.325). Also, I have tried my best to be thorough. I have NOT selected only quotations that support the post-trib position, and ignored those that oppose it. The writings of the early Christians consistently support post-tribulationism, and give absolutely no hint of pre-tribulationism. Anybody who can produce writings from the same period to the contrary is certainly welcome to present them.

IMMINENCE or EXPECTANCY?
One of the key elements of pre-trib thinking is the idea that Jesus could come at any moment, and no intervening prophetic events need occur prior to Jesus’ coming. Some pre-trib authors have claimed the early Christians believed in the imminency of Jesus’ coming, but that is simply not true. While there are passages in the Church Fathers that show they expected a soon return of Christ, we should not mistake this for belief in “imminence.” The one thing that precludes an “any-moment” coming is their clear belief that intervening events must occur prior to the coming of the Lord for His Church. Yet, most were convinced the end-time scenario would unfold soon. Therefore, they had a healthy EXPECTANCY of the Lord’s soon return, while NOT believing in “imminency.”

Below is a quote from Irenaeus, Bishop of the Church at Lyons. In this excerpt, Irenaeus was speaking unapprovingly about a group of fellow believers who were enthusiastically trying to figure out the name of the Antichrist based on the value the Greek letters. (There were a few manuscripts of Revelation circulating that had an error in the number of the name of the Beast, 616 rather than 666). Their expectation was quite real, thinking that the end-time scenario — tribulation, Antichrist, second coming — would play out in the near future. But they were in error by using a corrupt manuscript with the erroneous number. In this section, Irenaeus was concerned both with this erroneous number, as well as their unhealthy eagerness to find a candidate who’s name added up to the number of the Beast. Irenaeus’ advice was to await the fulfillment of certain prophecies in Revelation, including the fall of the Roman Empire and rise of the ten kings, before they begin to speculate on who the Antichrist might be. Hence, it is obvious they did NOT believe the coming of the Lord was “imminent.”

Irenaeus: (AD. 120-202)
“Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against. These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation. ... It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. ... But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: ... But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” [Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book V, XXX]

Now, why would Irenaeus have said anything about Christians waiting for these events to be fulfilled if he knew that we weren’t going to be here, via the Pre-Trib Rapture? Wouldn’t he have said something more to the effect that we need not concern ourselves with identifying the Antichrist because we wouldn’t be here to live through his persecutions in the first place?

Literalist-Luke
Jul 16th 2008, 02:06 PM
PERSECUTION OF THE CHURCH BY ANTICHRIST
The early Christians unanimously believed the Antichrist would persecute the Church, and that the resurrection and gathering to Christ would occur at a single coming, after the tribulation.

Justin Martyr: (AD. 110-165)
“[T]wo advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, ... Now it is evident that no one can terrify or subdue us who have believed in Jesus over all the world. For it is plain that, though beheaded, and crucified, and thrown to wild beasts, and chains, and fire, and all other kinds of torture, we do not give up our confession; but the more such things happen, the more do others and in larger numbers become faithful, and worshippers of God through the name of Jesus.” [Dialog with Trypho, CX]

FUTURIST or HISTORICIST?
The early Christians did not believe they were in the tribulation, as is claimed by some. They considered the revelation of Antichrist to be entirely future, as well as the appearance of the two witnesses. They believed the Antichrist would defile and rule from the Temple in Jerusalem. And remember, the Jews had been driven from Jerusalem and the Temple had been destroyed in AD. 70, and Roman law at the time forbade them from returning. These Church Fathers expected that Rome would fall and be replaced by the ten kings. Then Antichrist would arise and take over the kingdom, the Jews would be restored back to Jerusalem, and Antichrist would rebuild the Temple. Only afterward would the Antichrist commit the “abomination of desolation,” and then persecute the Church. They held a literal “futurist” view of Revelation, just as Pre-Millennialists do today.

Hippolytus: (AD. 170-236)
“As these things, then, are in the future, and as the ten toes of the image are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal survey. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander’s time; the legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans, who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings judgment upon the world was Christ.” [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 27,28]

Some pre-trib authors have implied that the reason the early Christians did not teach pre-tribulationism is because they were not as theologically sophisticated as modern scholars. They had not developed their doctrinal positions enough to realize a pre-trib rapture. They excuse this absurdity by claiming the early Christians were not really focused on prophecy. They allege the Church did not concern itself with eschatology until after the Reformation, when pre-tribulationism was “rediscovered.”

This line of reasoning implies that correct theology comes from an evolutionary process. And, the Church is progressing and becoming more theologically sophisticated as time goes by. But, isn’t the transmission of doctrinal truth from one generation to the next supposed to be fixed? Weren’t the early Christians taught personally by the Apostles? Were the Apostles not as sophisticated theologically as today’s scholars? Perhaps we flatter ourselves too much if we think we have arrived at truths unseen by the early Church. Did the Apostles transmit a crude system of theology that needed to be refined by later generations? The whole concept of evolving theology is absolutely antibiblical. Acts records that new converts continued steadfastly in the Apostle’s doctrine, [Acts 2:42]. Paul told Timothy to faithfully transmit what he had been taught to other faithful men who could then be trusted to pass on pure doctrine to succeeding generations, [2 Tim. 2:1,2]. Paul also warned the Ephesian elders to guard what they had been taught because after the Apostles died, error was bound to dilute the pure doctrine of Christ and the Apostles, [Acts 20:28,29]. And Jude exhorted the brethren to “earnestly contend for the Faith which was once delivered to the saints” [Jude 3]. There was no eschatological vacuum in the early Church. And the extensive treatment of end-time prophecy by Irenaeus and Hippolytus demonstrate a well developed understanding right from the beginning. If there is any need to advance in theology today, it is to get back to what Christ and the Apostles taught. Aside from the Scriptures themselves, the best evidence is to examine what the disciples of the Apostles believed and taught. Obviously, just as Paul warned, as time went on, and new generations of Christians were taught by the preceding generation, a degrading of pure doctrine occurred. Men brought in their own ideas, intentionally and unintentionally, diluting the true teaching of the Apostles. This degrading process is clearly demonstrated in the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church, where tradition upon tradition has been heaped up, with the modern teaching hardly resembling the Apostle’s doctrine. Of course, those of us who hold only the Bible as our final authority are better anchored than Catholics. But, it cannot be denied that theology has evolved even among non-Catholics. People still bring their preconceived philosophical ideas to their interpretation of Scripture.

At times, the evolution of theology has been checked by a revolution. This was clearly demonstrated in the Reformation. Over a millennia of Roman Catholic tradition was thrown off and Christians again began to search the Scriptures. As the masses became familiar with the written Word of God, they began to shed the false and cumbersome doctrines they had been fed. Most of the “new” doctrines the Protestants embraced were explicitly taught in the Scriptures, and in the writings of the early Church, so were not actually “new,” just rediscovered.

It is obvious, that the closer we can trace a doctrine back to the time of the Apostles, the more likely it is to actually be doctrine taught by the Apostles. This is especially true if a doctrine can be shown to be contiguous to the time of the Apostles. For example, widely accepted doctrines taught by Church leaders from the later decades of the first century, while the Apostle John was still alive and overseeing the local churches of Asia Minor, are more likely to have met with John’s approval. If such doctrines can be shown to have been widely or universally accepted by faithful early Christian leaders who had ties to the Apostles, the likelihood is much greater that they are orthodox. Conversely, if a particular doctrine has no support in the early Church, and is even opposite the universally held view, then such doctrine is highly suspect! While we do not consider linkage to the early Church to be proof of a doctrine’s correctness, it does provide weighty supporting evidence. The essence of the post-trib argument against pre-tribulationism on historical grounds is that any new doctrine is false doctrine. If it cannot be traced back to the inspired biblical writers, it is not “the faith once delivered to the saints,” and we should not be “contending” for it!

Of course, some false doctrines were developed even in the first century, and were then passed to succeeding generations, so that they can be traced very far back in Christian history. However, in the early Church, this could not, and did not, occur without a strong reaction from orthodox believers. When serious false doctrines were developed, the large number of orthodox believers trained by the Apostles were a natural deterrent to the spread of these false doctrines, and sounded the alarm against them. The writings of the early Christians display ferocious attacks on new and false doctrines, and valiant defenses of the orthodox Faith. The five books of Irenaeus Against Heresies are a catalogue of the false teachings of the day and Irenaeus’ refutation of them, based on the teaching of Scripture, and oral tradition passed down by the Apostles. In fact, much of the writings of the early Ante-Nicene Fathers are refutations of heresies. One of Irenaeus’ arguments against these early heresies was that they had no traceable linkage to the Apostles. Irenaeus argued that the orthodox Faith could be traced back through the succession of ordained local Bishops in the local churches founded by the Apostles. These local churches were entrusted with both the original New Testament manuscripts as well as the oral teaching of the Apostles who founded and originally pastored them.

Since the early Christians who knew both the Scriptures and the Apostolic oral tradition were unanimously post-trib, it seems difficult to believe that they all had departed from the teaching of the Apostles without a single writer challenging them! Furthermore, it seems almost impossible to imagine that if pre-tribulationism was indeed taught by the Apostles, there should be no trace of it left in the very next generation of believers! The claim, that these early Christians were not theologically sophisticated, is utter nonsense, as anyone who has read their discourses can easily see. They quoted Scripture extensively, and brought together a well developed eschatology that depended on a literal interpretation of prophecy, and was pre-millennial, futurist, and post-tribulational.

IBWatching
Jul 16th 2008, 02:23 PM
Big surprise for ya Roelof, Margrete McDonald's vision wasn't pre trib...

The notion that McDonald and Darby knew each other was started by Dave MacPherson in a book he wrote in the 1970's. In it he claimed that Darby and McDonald had a "secret" (which is what it would have to have been because there is no historical evidence) meeting where Darby supposedly "learned" the pre-trib position from her.

To emphasize MacPherson's (an avowed hater of the pre-trib position) ignorance on this matter, I have read McDonald's account of the so-called "vision" she had. In it she clearly states that the Church would undergo tribulation. That would preclude her from having a pre-trib view.

In summary, Darby and McDonald's supposed "secret" meeting must have even more secret than even MacPherson imagined. The only major position which Darby could have "learned" from McDonald would have been post-trib!

John146
Jul 16th 2008, 03:36 PM
I do not want to give the impression that the eschatology of the Early Church was uniform throughout. There was some controversy, mainly concerning whether the Millennium should be understood literally. Most of the writers understood the Millennium as the literal reign of Christ and the saints on earth for 1,000 years after the second coming. But, those who favored allegorical interpretation (spiritualizing the Millennium) thought the 70th week (but not the tribulation) was already fulfilled. These were exclusively North African writers, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Julius Africanus (all of which were connected with the heretical Alexandrian school). Tertullian, also of North Africa (Carthage), thought the 70th week was past. Yet, like the orthodox writers, he still believed in a future tribulation and Antichrist, and a literal Millennium.
However, despite the disagreement over the nature of the Millennium, and how to interpret Daniel 9:27, there was absolutely no controversy regarding the timing of the rapture. All saw a future tribulation, a literal Antichrist who would persecute the Church, and all were post-tribulationists, seeing only one future coming of Christ after the tribulation. What you said here is not entirely accurate so I'd like to clarify this. Here is a quote from the early church father Justin Martyr:


"I admitted to you formerly, thathttp://www.pravoslavieto.com/life/06/06.01_sv_Justin_Martyr.jpg (http://www.pravoslavieto.com/life/06/06.01_sv_Justin_Martyr.jpg) I and many others are of this opinion (temporal 1000 year reign), and that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." (Dialogue with Trypho (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html), CHAPTER LXXX -- THE OPINION OF JUSTIN WITH REGARD TO THE REIGN OF A THOUSAND YEARS. )


Justin was a chiliast, which was someone who believed "the thousand years" was a literal one thousand years. But not all chiliasts believed the thousand years followed the second coming of Christ. And as Justin Martyr said, [B]many true Christians believed otherwise. You're trying to claim that most of the early church fathers believed in premillennialism, but that is not the case. I realize this has nothing to do with the pre-trib vs. post-trib issue, but I just wanted to clarify what I saw as an inaccuracy in your post.

John146
Jul 16th 2008, 03:39 PM
The notion that McDonald and Darby knew each other was started by Dave MacPherson in a book he wrote in the 1970's. In it he claimed that Darby and McDonald had a "secret" (which is what it would have to have been because there is no historical evidence) meeting where Darby supposedly "learned" the pre-trib position from her.

To emphasize MacPherson's (an avowed hater of the pre-trib position) ignorance on this matter, I have read McDonald's account of the so-called "vision" she had. In it she clearly states that the Church would undergo tribulation. That would preclude her from having a pre-trib view.

In summary, Darby and McDonald's supposed "secret" meeting must have even more secret than even MacPherson imagined. The only major position which Darby could have "learned" from McDonald would have been post-trib!But this is all besides the point, which is that none of the early church fathers (based on their writings from the first few centuries) taught pre-trib. That is a pretty significant fact that is a good argument (but just one of many) against pre-trib, whether pre-tribs want to admit it or not.

My heart's Desire
Jul 16th 2008, 04:28 PM
But this is all besides the point, which is that none of the early church fathers (based on their writings from the first few centuries) taught pre-trib. That is a pretty significant fact that is a good argument (but just one of many) against pre-trib, whether pre-tribs want to admit it or not.
I don't think it is besides the point considering that most use the Darby-Mcdonald thing to discredit pre-trib using that for their augument. I still say Pre-trib is a Pauline doctrine given to him by the Lord Jesus.

Firstfruits
Jul 16th 2008, 07:13 PM
I don't think it is besides the point considering that most use the Darby-Mcdonald thing to discredit pre-trib using that for their augument. I still say Pre-trib is a Pauline doctrine given to him by the Lord Jesus.

According to the following does Jesus imply that he comes before or after the tribulation?

Mt 24:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mt 24:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Are these not the same trumpet?

1 Cor 15:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thess 4:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

If they are the same trumpet then how did it come to be believed to be before the tribulation, which is not according to what is written?

Firstfruits

John146
Jul 16th 2008, 07:21 PM
I don't think it is besides the point considering that most use the Darby-Mcdonald thing to discredit pre-trib using that for their augument. I still say Pre-trib is a Pauline doctrine given to him by the Lord Jesus.I'm just saying that whether it originated with Darby in 1830 or some other guy in 1788 doesn't make much of a difference. There is no record of it being taught by any of the early church fathers of the first few centuries. It seems to me that either the early church fathers were all mistaken, or none of the early church fathers who believed pre-trib (if there were any) felt it worth their while to write down their beliefs, or pre-trib is just another false doctrine that has been conjured up in the last couple hundred years or so. I vote for the latter.

quiet dove
Jul 16th 2008, 10:12 PM
From what I have gathered in notes is that
-most took the Bible very literally approach, that may not have led them to pre trib but it did lead to....
-many scholars have coming to the conclusion that the early Church fathers were futurist and pre-millennialists, that Daniel, Revelation, are leading to a Millennial reign of Christ.
-it was with Constantine that the view of Christ as already reigning on earth through the government of the Church came in, and the prophecies were allegorical not literal.

Now whether or not those are true fact I am not sure, but most certainly interesting. We should determing the heurmenatics (you know I can't spell that) of whoever, be they today or ecf, and simply being ecf does still not equate to 100% understanding and/or interpretation. There were pretty much as many different understanding then as now, at least thats kinda how it seems.

quiet dove
Jul 16th 2008, 10:13 PM
And of course I reckon we are all of topic, I don't even know what it is.:lol:

IBWatching
Jul 16th 2008, 10:15 PM
But this is all besides the point, which is that none of the early church fathers (based on their writings from the first few centuries) taught pre-trib. That is a pretty significant fact that is a good argument (but just one of many) against pre-trib, whether pre-tribs want to admit it or not.

While I agree with you that the McDonald issue is besides the point (MacPherson brought it up first, I didn't) it does have bearing on the very same problem with what you have posted above. No one has documented proof that ALL the ECF's held ANY end times view. Historical reasoning led many to believe that Israel was Kaput in 70 AD. Thus, the "unofficial" position of the Church for almost 12 centuries was akin to a-millennialism or even what we call partial preterism today.

People seem to think that the average Church Believer from 125-300 AD carried around a completed Canonized Bible with them and were involved in public discussion with these ECF's on what they wrote about the Bible. Thus, from as silent of an argument from silence as one can make, people "assume" that what this ECF sparingly and seemingly wrote about the end times was checked by the Holy Spirit through Believers living at that time and they all gave their stamp of approval to it. This is, in my mind the single most ridiculous premise on which these ECF based eschatological arguments are founded.

The historical truth is that until the printing press arrived, there could be no sweeping "consensus" from the Church on the end times which was based on what they saw from Scripture. Only what they were told to believe for centuries by the RCC and their priests. The Reformists movements would have gone nowhere without the printing press. Even Luther used printed pamphlets to foment his movement.

Pre-millennial thought is accused of being a recent theological "invention". Well, if "invention" means Believers finally having Scriptures in their own hands so they can see the Truth, then I am certainly not ashamed of it.

wpm
Jul 16th 2008, 11:13 PM
The notion that McDonald and Darby knew each other was started by Dave MacPherson in a book he wrote in the 1970's. In it he claimed that Darby and McDonald had a "secret" (which is what it would have to have been because there is no historical evidence) meeting where Darby supposedly "learned" the pre-trib position from her.

To emphasize MacPherson's (an avowed hater of the pre-trib position) ignorance on this matter, I have read McDonald's account of the so-called "vision" she had. In it she clearly states that the Church would undergo tribulation. That would preclude her from having a pre-trib view.

In summary, Darby and McDonald's supposed "secret" meeting must have even more secret than even MacPherson imagined. The only major position which Darby could have "learned" from McDonald would have been post-trib!

Dave MacPherson was like every theologian before McDonald - he couldn't find it in the Word. For us to accept Pretrib as a legitimate biblical doctrine you need to show us a proof-text. I can't find it anywhere. Here is the crucial question that you need to address (if you do you will be the first I have found):

Can you show us one single Scripture that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

Paul

wpm
Jul 16th 2008, 11:17 PM
From what I have gathered in notes is that
-most took the Bible very literally approach, that may not have led them to pre trib but it did lead to....
-many scholars have coming to the conclusion that the early Church fathers were futurist and pre-millennialists, that Daniel, Revelation, are leading to a Millennial reign of Christ.
-it was with Constantine that the view of Christ as already reigning on earth through the government of the Church came in, and the prophecies were allegorical not literal.

Now whether or not those are true fact I am not sure, but most certainly interesting. We should determing the heurmenatics (you know I can't spell that) of whoever, be they today or ecf, and simply being ecf does still not equate to 100% understanding and/or interpretation. There were pretty much as many different understanding then as now, at least thats kinda how it seems.

Which ECF's contended that sinners inhabit the millennial earth - as Premil believes? Please list your evidence.

Paul

Yankee Candle
Jul 16th 2008, 11:52 PM
"Dave MacPherson was like every theologian before McDonald - he couldn't find it in the Word. For us to accept Pretrib as a legitimate biblical doctrine you need to show us a proof-text."

This one leaves my mouth hanging open. It's almost as outrageous as saying, "Faces on Mt. Rushmore? I see no faces. Show me."

Example:

We are told in several places that believers have the opportunity to 'escape the wrath to come'. Luke 21:36 for example. Escape what?

Answer: The terrible wrath of God during the final judgment of tribulation which Jesus had just described.

But Paul tells us twice in Thessalonians:

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." I Thessalonians 1:10.

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". 5;9. The word 'wrath' is from the Greek word ORGE (meaning anger, violent passion: Strongs).

What wrath?

This wrath: "For the great day of his wrath (ORGE) is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Revelation 6:17.

The pre-tribulation rapture position is the only position on the 2nd coming in which all the pieces of the prophectic puzzle fall together logically. No other position will satisfy all the pre-requisites of prophecy.






Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

RevLogos
Jul 17th 2008, 01:26 AM
The notion that McDonald and Darby knew each other was started by Dave MacPherson in a book he wrote in the 1970's. In it he claimed that Darby and McDonald had a "secret" (which is what it would have to have been because there is no historical evidence) meeting where Darby supposedly "learned" the pre-trib position from her.

To emphasize MacPherson's (an avowed hater of the pre-trib position) ignorance on this matter, I have read McDonald's account of the so-called "vision" she had. In it she clearly states that the Church would undergo tribulation. That would preclude her from having a pre-trib view.

In summary, Darby and McDonald's supposed "secret" meeting must have even more secret than even MacPherson imagined. The only major position which Darby could have "learned" from McDonald would have been post-trib!

The pre-trib history you are quoting from is false and possibly disengenuous. The notion Darby and MacDonald knew each other comes from Darby himself. This was not a secret.

Darby discussed his meeting with the MacDonald family when he visited them in Port Glasgow, and he discusses her and the "Irvinite Charismatics" in his book. Darby is quite critical of the Irvinites and doesn't mention any specific prophesies of hers in this book. Darby's book I refer to is:

Darby, J. N., The Irrationalism of Infidelity (London: 1853), pp. 284-286.

I have read it. What would be up for debate (if it were worth debating) is not whether Darby met MacDonald and knew of her prophesies, but to what extent that knowledge influenced his own theories. Darby claims no influence.

RevLogos
Jul 17th 2008, 01:36 AM
"Dave MacPherson was like every theologian before McDonald - he couldn't find it in the Word. For us to accept Pretrib as a legitimate biblical doctrine you need to show us a proof-text."



"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". 5;9. The word 'wrath' is from the Greek word ORGE (meaning anger, violent passion: Strongs).



I would think all Christians at least agree that we are not destined for God's wrath. This is Biblically clear.

What is not clear to me is how we escape the wrath, and what part of the "tribulations" constitutes God's wrath, and what constitute the wrath of Man.

For example, when we are faced with the choice of accepting or refusing the mark of the beast, is this before God's wrath? Is it before or after any rapture?

Literalist-Luke
Jul 17th 2008, 02:46 AM
This one leaves my mouth hanging open. It's almost as outrageous as saying, "Faces on Mt. Rushmore? I see no faces. Show me."

Example:

We are told in several places that believers have the opportunity to 'escape the wrath to come'. Luke 21:36 for example. Escape what?

Answer: The terrible wrath of God during the final judgment of tribulation which Jesus had just described.The problem right here is that you are equating the Tribulation with the wrath of God. They are not the same thing. The Post-Trib Rapture does not have the saints enduring even one second of God's wrath. We are GONE from the earth by the time the wrath of God comes.
But Paul tells us twice in Thessalonians:

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." I Thessalonians 1:10.

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". 5;9. The word 'wrath' is from the Greek word ORGE (meaning anger, violent passion: Strongs).

What wrath?

This wrath: "For the great day of his wrath (ORGE) is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Revelation 6:17.That's exactly right, and the sixth seal is the END of the Tribulation as well as being the start of the Day of the Lord. Maybe you should check out Joel 2:31 - "The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD."

Please explain this verse from a Pre-Trib point of view. And while you're at it, are you ever going to try to explain the Luke 21:25-28 reference I shared earlier? And what about II Thessalonians 1:6-10? Your refusal to explain these only makes it appear that you can't.
The pre-tribulation rapture position is the only position on the 2nd coming in which all the pieces of the prophectic puzzle fall together logically. No other position will satisfy all the pre-requisites of prophecy.OK, instead of making blanket statements that large groups of people are not going to agree with, let's stick with the Biblical facts.

wpm
Jul 17th 2008, 03:29 AM
"Dave MacPherson was like every theologian before McDonald - he couldn't find it in the Word. For us to accept Pretrib as a legitimate biblical doctrine you need to show us a proof-text."

This one leaves my mouth hanging open. It's almost as outrageous as saying, "Faces on Mt. Rushmore? I see no faces. Show me."

Example:

We are told in several places that believers have the opportunity to 'escape the wrath to come'. Luke 21:36 for example. Escape what?

Answer: The terrible wrath of God during the final judgment of tribulation which Jesus had just described.

But Paul tells us twice in Thessalonians:

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." I Thessalonians 1:10.

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ". 5;9. The word 'wrath' is from the Greek word ORGE (meaning anger, violent passion: Strongs).

What wrath?

This wrath: "For the great day of his wrath (ORGE) is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Revelation 6:17.

The pre-tribulation rapture position is the only position on the 2nd coming in which all the pieces of the prophectic puzzle fall together logically. No other position will satisfy all the pre-requisites of prophecy.


http://images-partners-tbn.google.com/images?q=tbn:WCZ059Vk3pUmMM:thirtyyorkstreet.com/Silver-cups.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


God's wrath that is coming is the obliteration of this current arrangement - not McDonald's 2 future Coming theory sandwiching a supposed 7yrs trib. Where does it teach this stuff? Nowhere.

2 Peter 3:10-13 declares: “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

When Jesus comes like a thief the aforementioned will occur!!! Nothing could be simpler. A plain face-value reading of this could come to no other conclusion. Premils have the judgment that catches the last days scoffers arriving 1,000 yrs after Peter and Paul say. It is warning (1) of the unexpected nature of the destruction, and (2) what befalls the scoffers when He appears “as a thief in the night.” Peter uses the flood as an example of how swiftly and fully the wicked will be destroyed. The wicked continue in the last days to scoff “since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.”

Peter says, “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men” (2 Peter 3:5-7).

Notably, Peter contrasts the happenings of Christ’s Coming and the fate of the Christ-rejecter at His return in this chapter to that of the last global judgment that came in a similar unexpected manner on the wicked throughout this earth and which also immediately destroyed the sum total of the wicked in Noah’s day. The Lord says the same in Luke 17, saying, “the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (v27).

He also describes the means by which the Lord will destroy the world this time – at His Coming – as fire. Just like the former earth perished with the wicked and was renewed so will this current earth. Moreover, the time that this occurs will be when Christ comes to finally judge and abolish every evidence of the curse.

I Thessalonians 5:2-7, reinforces the immediate and total destructive nature of judgment, saying, “the day of the Lord will come (or appear or arrive) as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.”

How you can separate these two parallel passages by 1,000 yrs+ shows again how you are doing injury to the reading. These mirror each other. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. Furthermore, we learn that the speed that the pain of childbirth hits a woman will be like the destruction of the wicked. It is not saying that 'the whole child-birth experience is like the coming of the Lord' which would be needed to allow for the Premil understanding. After all, they have to stretch the judgment out over centuries, but it is not found in this text. In doing this they diminish the sudden nature of the destruction.

The Coming of Christ is here (as 2 Peter 3) likened to the appearance of “a thief in the night.” Moreover, the narrative demonstrates that the judgment that accompanies this climactic event is instantaneous and that it involves “sudden destruction.” Its focus is directed fully and entirely upon the sum-total of the wicked, not merely a percentage of them. This group that is referred to as “they” who “shall not escape” relates to the aggregate Christ-rejecting community alive at His return. It is they alone that experience immediate and “sudden destruction” which “cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child”; and “they shall [assuredly] not escape.” This climactic event pulls down the curtain on time and concludes the affairs of this life.

Paul

Yankee Candle
Jul 17th 2008, 03:59 AM
"The problem right here is that you are equating the Tribulation with the wrath of God. They are not the same thing. The Post-Trib Rapture does not have the saints enduring even one second of God's wrath. We are GONE from the earth by the time the wrath of God comes."

Uh, yeah, you might say that. They are one and the same and always have been. I quoted I Thess. twice concerning the word 'wrath' and connected it with Rev. 6:17 and yet you insist that that time is at the END of the tribulation. Where do you get that idea?

THINK! When the people who laid down palm branches in front of Jesus at the eastern gate and shouted, "Hosanna, the king cometh...!" was that the first instance of His presence in Jerusalem? Absolutely not. He had already been ministering for three years before that day and had been to Jerusalem several times prior to that day. So don't give me this notion that Rev. 6:17 is at the END of the tribulation. It is near the beginning and the phrase "the day of his wrath is come" includes the entire 7 year period...retroactive back to the appearance of Antichrist and forward to the very end when Christ visibly returns. That is why Daniel set off that period of time in Daniel 9:25.

You are like a fellow who is given a jigsaw puzzle by his friend, and then are shown how to put it together in a logical fashion, and yet you rip up the pieces and glue them back together in a way that makes a picture that you want instead of the picture that is on the box cover.

"Maybe you should check out Joel 2:31 - "The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD."

So?

Look what else Joel said in the same context: vss 28-30

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come."

Peter specifically told the people on the day of Pentecost that this passage was fulfilled right there and then. No question about it.

"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel." Acts 2:16.

But Revelation, being a book written AFTER this happened on the day of Pentecost, leads us to believe that there will be a double fulfillment and these things will happen again at a yet future time. You and I simply differ on the timing of events, not on whether they will happen or not.

Just prior to the coming of Christ visibly at the end of the tribulation these things will happen again, but the raptured saints will have been out of this world for years by that time.

"And while you're at it, are you ever going to try to explain the Luke 21:25-28 reference I shared earlier? And what about II Thessalonians 1:6-10? Your refusal to explain these only makes it appear that you can't."

Get down off your high-horse, fella. There is no 'refusal', I just don't think I have to cover every single point that is demanded of me all in one post. Is that clear?

Now for what you asked. Not a problem:

"Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people."

Jesus was speaking of the people who will be converted to Christ during the tribulation period. There will be some, especially as it relates to Israel.
Again, I ask, what is the problem here? I see no problem.

Concerning I Thessalonians 1:6-10, I ask again, "What is the problem?" Yes, Christians have experienced persecution and tribulations since the time that Christ left this world. But those tribulations were nothing like THE Tribulation that will come on the whole world. To that, God has promised those who are faithful to Him and believe His Word that they will be removed from this world when he is ready to pour out his wrath.

"OK, instead of making blanket statements that large groups of people are not going to agree with, let's stick with the Biblical facts."

And I will gently warn you to be careful about your attitude. I am not disturbed about your beliefs for I have answered such arguments many times over the last forty years. Let's continue to discuss things as gentlemen and leave off the unnecessary comments.

I bid you goodnight.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg
Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

My heart's Desire
Jul 17th 2008, 04:04 AM
According to the following does Jesus imply that he comes before or after the tribulation?

Mt 24:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mt 24:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Are these not the same trumpet?

1 Cor 15:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thess 4:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

If they are the same trumpet then how did it come to be believed to be before the tribulation, which is not according to what is written?

Firstfruits
Well of course pretrib doesn't believe that Paul's trumpet is the 7th trumpet that Jesus was speaking of when He returns to fight the Nations on Earth, but He wasn't speaking of the Rapture. 2 separate events, rapture of the Church and the personal return of the Lord Jesus to reign 1000 yrs upon the earth. The elect means chosen so are they the chosen Israelites, the chosen (meaning the Church?) or the chosen of those who survive the trib? The elect doesn't always mean those saved from beginning to the end. For example, Jesus said " You are Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church. Since He said "I will build my church" does that mean that the church didn't exist in the O. T? Was Abraham saved? We believe he is. So is Abraham part of the Church? I would think he is the saved of the O.T believers but isn't that before Jesus said "I will build my church? In Matt 27:52 it is said that when the veil of the temple was rent that tombs were opened and then when Jesus was resurrected the bodies of the saints who had died arose and was seen by many in the city. It doesn't say anywhere that they died again. And surely it was not the resurrection of All those who had died already. If you think about it, why is this account there at this particuliar time? And since it was when Jesus rose again why was it only a few and not all? I don't know but these are questions I have to ask myself.
Did the 7th trumpet blow then? No. The Lord Jesus was the firstfruits of those who were dead. To say that Jesus arose first and then this group did afterwards why is it so hard to believe that the catching up of the Church before the trib cannot be a different resurrection than the general one at the end of Revelation?
Daniel was told to go his way to the end; the he will enter into rest and rise again for his allotted portion at the end of the age, so doesn't anyone ever wonder why Daniel wasn't one of the ones who rose after Jesus was resurrected?
On the side, I've also heard that those who believe in the pretrib rapture of the church almost have to be somewhat dispensational or it doesn't make sense.

Merton
Jul 17th 2008, 04:13 AM
The problem right here is that you are equating the Tribulation with the wrath of God. They are not the same thing. The Post-Trib Rapture does not have the saints enduring even one second of God's wrath. We are GONE from the earth by the time the wrath of God comes.That's exactly right, and the sixth seal is the END of the Tribulation as well as being the start of the Day of the Lord. Maybe you should check out Joel 2:31 - "The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD."

Please explain this verse from a Pre-Trib point of view. And while you're at it, are you ever going to try to explain the Luke 21:25-28 reference I shared earlier? And what about II Thessalonians 1:6-10? Your refusal to explain these only makes it appear that you can't.OK, instead of making blanket statements that large groups of people are not going to agree with, let's stick with the Biblical facts.


The facts are that neither mortal believers nor resurrected saints are gone from the earth at any time.

Christ returns from Heaven to raise the saints from the dead and change the living , and they arise to where Christ is in the clouds.

There is no reason for Christ to take the saints to the Heaven from where He came, because He does not go back there Himself.

Believers who are not resurrected, (yes you must think about that ) are warned against looking for Christ in deserts or secret places AFTER His return for no one would be looking for Him on earth if He had not come previously, and if we look at the time of the great lying signs and wonders then we see that they do NOT come before the resurrection but afterward in the 6th vial of wrath.

Any lying signs and wonders before Christ returns are of the bombs and spaceship and science and money kind, (Rev.13)which are very successful in deceiving the general world today who for the moment stubbonly refuse to believe Christ.


It is impossible (yes impossible) for the believers to be deceived by the lying signs and wonders of the 6th vial, but still believers must always keep their garments clean at any time, but these mortals are waiting for the 1335 day of blessing of Rev.22:1-2.

So

1. the idea that the resurrected saints are not on the earth, which includes this earths air, is not correct and

2. the idea that believers are not on the earth during the vials of wrath is also incorrect.

The vials of wrath are not upon all of the earth but only upon the Kingdom of the Beast which includes this worlds cities of the ungodly, but it does not include all other places in the world.

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, everystone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odors, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
Rev 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
Rev 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to naught. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What cityis like unto this great city!
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.


Merton

My heart's Desire
Jul 17th 2008, 04:21 AM
The facts are that neither mortal believers nor resurrected saints are gone from the earth at any time.

Christ returns from Heaven to raise the saints from the dead and change the living , and they arise to where Christ is in the clouds.

There is no reason for Christ to take the saints to the Heaven from where He came, because He does not go back there Himself.

Believers who are not resurrected, (yes you must think about that ) are warned against looking for Christ in deserts or secret places AFTER His return for no one would be looking for Him on earth if He had not come previously, and if we look at the time of the great lying signs and wonders then we see that they do NOT come before the resurrection but afterward in the 6th vial of wrath.

Any lying signs and wonders before Christ returns are of the bombs and spaceship and science and money kind, (Rev.13)which are very successful in deceiving the general world today who for the moment stubbonly refuse to believe Christ.


It is impossible (yes impossible) for the believers to be deceived by the lying signs and wonders of the 6th vial, but still believers must always keep their garments clean at any time, but these mortals are waiting for the 1335 day of blessing of Rev.22:1-2.

So

1. the idea that the resurrected saints are not on the earth, which includes this earths air, is not correct and

2. the idea that believers are not on the earth during the vials of wrath is also incorrect.

The vials of wrath are not upon all of the earth but only upon the Kingdom of the Beast which includes this worlds cities of the ungodly, but it does not include all other places in the world.

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, everystone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odors, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
Rev 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
Rev 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to naught. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What cityis like unto this great city!
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.


Merton
And the question is what group of believers and when...

My heart's Desire
Jul 17th 2008, 04:24 AM
Thinking I'll leave this thread for another day.....speaking of..... whenever it happens we know that we will all...my brothers and sister in Christ will rejoice together when we all see HIM, the Lord of All face to face! What a Glorious Day that will be!
God Bless you all.

wpm
Jul 17th 2008, 04:26 AM
And I, of course, disagree with you. :)

Ok.

(1) How many elect people are there?
(2) How many good olive trees are there?
(3) How many spiritual bodies are there?
(4) How many brides are there?
(5) How many spiritual temples are there?
(6) How many peoples of God are there?
(7) How many households of faith are there?
(8) How many men are there?

Paul

Yankee Candle
Jul 17th 2008, 04:30 AM
"The facts are that neither mortal believers nor resurrected saints are gone from the earth at any time.

Christ returns from Heaven to raise the saints from the dead and change the living , and they arise to where Christ is in the clouds."

That is absolutely incorrect.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. {prevent: or, come before, or, anticipate}
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And after this, the marriage supper of the Lamb!

"And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready." Luke 14:17.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

Merton
Jul 17th 2008, 05:00 AM
"The facts are that neither mortal believers nor resurrected saints are gone from the earth at any time.

Christ returns from Heaven to raise the saints from the dead and change the living , and they arise to where Christ is in the clouds."

That is absolutely incorrect.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. {prevent: or, come before, or, anticipate}
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And after this, the marriage supper of the Lamb!

"And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready." Luke 14:17.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!



Your quoted verses said nothing about Christ and the saints going back to Heaven for the marriage or the supper.

Here is where the resurrected saints (and elsewhere) are after their resurrection--

Rev 11:11 And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Zec 12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like a hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

Then--

Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

fellowservant
Jul 17th 2008, 05:34 AM
Which ECF's contended that sinners inhabit the millennial earth - as Premil believes? Please list your evidence.

Paul

Hi Paul

I was just wondering, if Amil's are aloud to have sinners in their Millennial earth. Why can't Pre-Millers have them in their Millennial earth? Whats the difference?

Isn't the Millennium a time when Christ rules the world with a rod of iron after his return Rev 19-20. Or does Amill deny a Millennium all together?

God bless

fellowservant
Jul 17th 2008, 06:50 AM
PERSECUTION OF THE CHURCH BY ANTICHRIST
The early Christians unanimously believed the Antichrist would persecute the Church, and that the resurrection and gathering to Christ would occur at a single coming, after the tribulation.

Justin Martyr: (AD. 110-165)
“[T]wo advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, ... Now it is evident that no one can terrify or subdue us who have believed in Jesus over all the world. For it is plain that, though beheaded, and crucified, and thrown to wild beasts, and chains, and fire, and all other kinds of torture, we do not give up our confession; but the more such things happen, the more do others and in larger numbers become faithful, and worshippers of God through the name of Jesus.” [Dialog with Trypho, CX]

FUTURIST or HISTORICIST?
The early Christians did not believe they were in the tribulation, as is claimed by some. They considered the revelation of Antichrist to be entirely future, as well as the appearance of the two witnesses. They believed the Antichrist would defile and rule from the Temple in Jerusalem. And remember, the Jews had been driven from Jerusalem and the Temple had been destroyed in AD. 70, and Roman law at the time forbade them from returning. These Church Fathers expected that Rome would fall and be replaced by the ten kings. Then Antichrist would arise and take over the kingdom, the Jews would be restored back to Jerusalem, and Antichrist would rebuild the Temple. Only afterward would the Antichrist commit the “abomination of desolation,” and then persecute the Church. They held a literal “futurist” view of Revelation, just as Pre-Millennialists do today.

Hippolytus: (AD. 170-236)
“As these things, then, are in the future, and as the ten toes of the image are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal survey. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander’s time; the legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans, who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings judgment upon the world was Christ.” [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 27,28]

Some pre-trib authors have implied that the reason the early Christians did not teach pre-tribulationism is because they were not as theologically sophisticated as modern scholars. They had not developed their doctrinal positions enough to realize a pre-trib rapture. They excuse this absurdity by claiming the early Christians were not really focused on prophecy. They allege the Church did not concern itself with eschatology until after the Reformation, when pre-tribulationism was “rediscovered.”

This line of reasoning implies that correct theology comes from an evolutionary process. And, the Church is progressing and becoming more theologically sophisticated as time goes by. But, isn’t the transmission of doctrinal truth from one generation to the next supposed to be fixed? Weren’t the early Christians taught personally by the Apostles? Were the Apostles not as sophisticated theologically as today’s scholars? Perhaps we flatter ourselves too much if we think we have arrived at truths unseen by the early Church. Did the Apostles transmit a crude system of theology that needed to be refined by later generations? The whole concept of evolving theology is absolutely antibiblical. Acts records that new converts continued steadfastly in the Apostle’s doctrine, [Acts 2:42]. Paul told Timothy to faithfully transmit what he had been taught to other faithful men who could then be trusted to pass on pure doctrine to succeeding generations, [2 Tim. 2:1,2]. Paul also warned the Ephesian elders to guard what they had been taught because after the Apostles died, error was bound to dilute the pure doctrine of Christ and the Apostles, [Acts 20:28,29]. And Jude exhorted the brethren to “earnestly contend for the Faith which was once delivered to the saints” [Jude 3]. There was no eschatological vacuum in the early Church. And the extensive treatment of end-time prophecy by Irenaeus and Hippolytus demonstrate a well developed understanding right from the beginning. If there is any need to advance in theology today, it is to get back to what Christ and the Apostles taught. Aside from the Scriptures themselves, the best evidence is to examine what the disciples of the Apostles believed and taught. Obviously, just as Paul warned, as time went on, and new generations of Christians were taught by the preceding generation, a degrading of pure doctrine occurred. Men brought in their own ideas, intentionally and unintentionally, diluting the true teaching of the Apostles. This degrading process is clearly demonstrated in the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church, where tradition upon tradition has been heaped up, with the modern teaching hardly resembling the Apostle’s doctrine. Of course, those of us who hold only the Bible as our final authority are better anchored than Catholics. But, it cannot be denied that theology has evolved even among non-Catholics. People still bring their preconceived philosophical ideas to their interpretation of Scripture.

At times, the evolution of theology has been checked by a revolution. This was clearly demonstrated in the Reformation. Over a millennia of Roman Catholic tradition was thrown off and Christians again began to search the Scriptures. As the masses became familiar with the written Word of God, they began to shed the false and cumbersome doctrines they had been fed. Most of the “new” doctrines the Protestants embraced were explicitly taught in the Scriptures, and in the writings of the early Church, so were not actually “new,” just rediscovered.

It is obvious, that the closer we can trace a doctrine back to the time of the Apostles, the more likely it is to actually be doctrine taught by the Apostles. This is especially true if a doctrine can be shown to be contiguous to the time of the Apostles. For example, widely accepted doctrines taught by Church leaders from the later decades of the first century, while the Apostle John was still alive and overseeing the local churches of Asia Minor, are more likely to have met with John’s approval. If such doctrines can be shown to have been widely or universally accepted by faithful early Christian leaders who had ties to the Apostles, the likelihood is much greater that they are orthodox. Conversely, if a particular doctrine has no support in the early Church, and is even opposite the universally held view, then such doctrine is highly suspect! While we do not consider linkage to the early Church to be proof of a doctrine’s correctness, it does provide weighty supporting evidence. The essence of the post-trib argument against pre-tribulationism on historical grounds is that any new doctrine is false doctrine. If it cannot be traced back to the inspired biblical writers, it is not “the faith once delivered to the saints,” and we should not be “contending” for it!

Of course, some false doctrines were developed even in the first century, and were then passed to succeeding generations, so that they can be traced very far back in Christian history. However, in the early Church, this could not, and did not, occur without a strong reaction from orthodox believers. When serious false doctrines were developed, the large number of orthodox believers trained by the Apostles were a natural deterrent to the spread of these false doctrines, and sounded the alarm against them. The writings of the early Christians display ferocious attacks on new and false doctrines, and valiant defenses of the orthodox Faith. The five books of Irenaeus Against Heresies are a catalogue of the false teachings of the day and Irenaeus’ refutation of them, based on the teaching of Scripture, and oral tradition passed down by the Apostles. In fact, much of the writings of the early Ante-Nicene Fathers are refutations of heresies. One of Irenaeus’ arguments against these early heresies was that they had no traceable linkage to the Apostles. Irenaeus argued that the orthodox Faith could be traced back through the succession of ordained local Bishops in the local churches founded by the Apostles. These local churches were entrusted with both the original New Testament manuscripts as well as the oral teaching of the Apostles who founded and originally pastored them.

Since the early Christians who knew both the Scriptures and the Apostolic oral tradition were unanimously post-trib, it seems difficult to believe that they all had departed from the teaching of the Apostles without a single writer challenging them! Furthermore, it seems almost impossible to imagine that if pre-tribulationism was indeed taught by the Apostles, there should be no trace of it left in the very next generation of believers! The claim, that these early Christians were not theologically sophisticated, is utter nonsense, as anyone who has read their discourses can easily see. They quoted Scripture extensively, and brought together a well developed eschatology that depended on a literal interpretation of prophecy, and was pre-millennial, futurist, and post-tribulational.

Hi brother Literalist-Luke

Very good article, i just found one similar to this from an online source. This one goes into most of the millennial views.

God bless

Yankee Candle
Jul 17th 2008, 01:49 PM
Merton said, "Your quoted verses said nothing about Christ and the saints going back to Heaven for the marriage or the supper.

Here is where the resurrected saints (and elsewhere) are after their resurrection--"

The verses you quoted has nothing to do with the rapture of the saints as the tribulation begins. It has to do with the two witnesses only.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

When we meet Jesus in the air we remain with Him and we shall be like Him...perfect. We will not return to live on earth. We will rule and reign with Him much the way the angels do now.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." Rev., 20:6

Don't try to turn the rapture of the saints into some kind of yo-yo phenomenon because that isn't going to happen.

The people who re-populate the earth (the ones who survive the wrath of God during the tribulation) during Christ's kingdom on earth will NOT by perfect. They will live their lives with the curse of death as we do now; Isaiah 65:20.

These things make no sense unless one consider the pre-tribulation position.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg


Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

IBWatching
Jul 17th 2008, 01:52 PM
Dave MacPherson was like every theologian before McDonald - he couldn't find it in the Word. For us to accept Pretrib as a legitimate biblical doctrine you need to show us a proof-text. I can't find it anywhere. Here is the crucial question that you need to address (if you do you will be the first I have found):

Can you show us one single Scripture that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

Paul

First of all, I don't care what your end times position is. Think about it. Why would it matter to me? I am not looking for followers. But when I am asked what my position is, I can/will defend it.

Actually, the question you are asking me is almost identical to the one I ask you: Can you show me one Scripture which places the Church in the tribulation period? Because there aren't any...none. As I discussed with another poster here a while back, you have to perform an enormous amount of exegesis on Revelation 4-19 to see a Church there, especially given the context of Revelation 1-3.

Your position is really no position at all. It is simply an anti pre-trib position. It makes it living by attacking the pre-trib position, not laying a solid foundation or case for what it says it believes. Almost every argument I have seen anywhere against pre-trib follows the same routine.

If you are a True Believer in Jesus Christ then all this really consists of is a difference in what we think the future of our physical state on this earth might be. Spiritually, we are headed for the same end.

IBWatching
Jul 17th 2008, 02:23 PM
Ok.

(1) How many elect people are there?
(2) How many good olive trees are there?
(3) How many spiritual bodies are there?
(4) How many brides are there?
(5) How many spiritual temples are there?
(6) How many peoples of God are there?
(7) How many households of faith are there?
(8) How many men are there?

Paul

All of your questions are asked pertaining to the present time. I will keep that in mind, yet also answer them in the way I think you intended them. :)

1. Right now, the Church is the only "elect" existing. In regards to the last Jewish generation to see Jesus' Second Coming, it is defined by the context of Matthew 24. Remember, the elect which are gathered there are to be concerned about travel on the Sabbath during the Great Tribulation.

2. There is no word "good" in Romans 11 pertaining to olive trees. Just "wild" and "natural". The natural olive tree represents the household of God before Israel rejected Christ. Jews who rejected Christ and remained so at the time of Paul's writing this were branches broken off of the natural olive tree because of their unbelief. Gentiles who came into the Church were wild olive branches grafted into the natural olive tree. Jews who would believe in Christ and come into the Church are branches of the natural olive tree grafted back into it.

3. One. The Church is the only entity which is described as such. Israel is described as a nation, a people, tribes, etc. The Church is not described as any of those.

4. One. The Bride is the Church of Jesus Christ.

5. Millions. Every Believer in the Church is a Temple of the Holy Spirit (God).

6. Right now, only one...the Church. Prior to that there were two. Israel (determined by physical descendency) and everyone else (gentiles). Remember, Abraham Believed as a gentile, not a Jew.

7. Of faith? Right now, there's only the Church. But there have been two to this point. Those saints who gained Justification by their actions perfecting their faith (OT saints) and Church saints, who have their Justification through faith in the Righteousness of Jesus Christ. If you are referring to the household of God, then there is one. There has always only been one.

8. Right now, billions. In regards to types, in God's Eyes (according to what Jesus said) there have been/are/always will be two. Righteous and unrighteous. Same goes for women.

RevLogos
Jul 17th 2008, 02:27 PM
Perhaps one reason the pre- and nonpre- tribbers seem to talk past each other hinges not so much on the Rapture, but on the meaning of the tribulations. If I believed the tribulations were 7 years of God's wrath poured out upon the evil of this world, then I too would be pre-trib.

The idea that God spends 7 years torturing unto death those who do not believe is out of character for a loving God. It's more the character of a young freckle faced brat who spends a Sunday afternoon stirring up ant hills and pouring gasoline on them to torture them watch then struggle and die. Is this our God?

Most of what we think of as tribulations are the persecutions Christians will feel as the rest of the world tries to snuff out Christianity. Many Christians today are already in the tribulations. They already have to make the choice to worship God, or die. Worldwide all Christians alive at the time will have to make a similar choice, accept the mark of the beast and live, or refuse and be put away. This is not God's wrath, this is the wrath of Man and Satan.

Nowhere in the Bible are we told we will escape persecution and suffering. On the contrary, we are to expect it. We are told to have perseverance and faith in our suffering. We are told to rejoice in our suffering. Anyone can quote verse after verse on the tribulations of the Church. Are we to believe then that just before our sufferings we will be squirted off this planet, like God spitting out a watermelon seed, so we avoid these tribulations? So that God can torture everyone else for 7 years while we watch and applaud from the clouds?

John146
Jul 17th 2008, 03:31 PM
While I agree with you that the McDonald issue is besides the point (MacPherson brought it up first, I didn't) it does have bearing on the very same problem with what you have posted above. No one has documented proof that ALL the ECF's held ANY end times view. Historical reasoning led many to believe that Israel was Kaput in 70 AD. Thus, the "unofficial" position of the Church for almost 12 centuries was akin to a-millennialism or even what we call partial preterism today.

People seem to think that the average Church Believer from 125-300 AD carried around a completed Canonized Bible with them and were involved in public discussion with these ECF's on what they wrote about the Bible. Thus, from as silent of an argument from silence as one can make, people "assume" that what this ECF sparingly and seemingly wrote about the end times was checked by the Holy Spirit through Believers living at that time and they all gave their stamp of approval to it. This is, in my mind the single most ridiculous premise on which these ECF based eschatological arguments are founded.

The historical truth is that until the printing press arrived, there could be no sweeping "consensus" from the Church on the end times which was based on what they saw from Scripture. Only what they were told to believe for centuries by the RCC and their priests. The Reformists movements would have gone nowhere without the printing press. Even Luther used printed pamphlets to foment his movement.

Pre-millennial thought is accused of being a recent theological "invention". Well, if "invention" means Believers finally having Scriptures in their own hands so they can see the Truth, then I am certainly not ashamed of it.It's not premillennial thought that is a accused of being a recent invention. It's pre-trib and dispensational premil thought. I understand what you're saying in your post but that doesn't change the fact that there are no writings of any early church fathers who spoke of a belief in pre-trib and/or dispensationalism.

John146
Jul 17th 2008, 03:42 PM
2. There is no word "good" in Romans 11 pertaining to olive trees. Just "wild" and "natural".
Romans 11:24
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

wpm
Jul 17th 2008, 05:33 PM
Hi Paul

I was just wondering, if Amil's are aloud to have sinners in their Millennial earth. Why can't Pre-Millers have them in their Millennial earth? Whats the difference?

Isn't the Millennium a time when Christ rules the world with a rod of iron after his return Rev 19-20. Or does Amill deny a Millennium all together?

God bless

First, Scripture states that the bondage of corruption is removed when we are glorified (Romans 8). It also says that corruption cannot inherit the new earth (1 Cor 15). Premil saturates the new earth with all the ugly result of the fall.

Second, the kingdom to Premils is normally equated with the millennium, the kingdom is already here in a spiritual sense to the Amil. In the Amil understanding it is found within this current millennium wherever believers are found. The wicked are not part of the kingdom blessing during the intra-Advent period.

Contrary to what you say: The millennium exists in Amil theology, it just isn't a wooden 1,000 yrs. Anyway it says a thousand (which is figuratively used throughout Scripture in an indefinite way).

Paul

wpm
Jul 17th 2008, 05:38 PM
First of all, I don't care what your end times position is. Think about it. Why would it matter to me? I am not looking for followers. But when I am asked what my position is, I can/will defend it.

Actually, the question you are asking me is almost identical to the one I ask you: Can you show me one Scripture which places the Church in the tribulation period? Because there aren't any...none. As I discussed with another poster here a while back, you have to perform an enormous amount of exegesis on Revelation 4-19 to see a Church there, especially given the context of Revelation 1-3.

Your position is really no position at all. It is simply an anti pre-trib position. It makes it living by attacking the pre-trib position, not laying a solid foundation or case for what it says it believes. Almost every argument I have seen anywhere against pre-trib follows the same routine.

If you are a True Believer in Jesus Christ then all this really consists of is a difference in what we think the future of our physical state on this earth might be. Spiritually, we are headed for the same end.

The Church is described as the “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

The Church is described in Revelation as the “redeemed” in Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4.

The Church is also known in Revelation, like elsewhere in Scriptures, as the “brethren” Such references are found in Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9.

The Church is referred to in Revelation 17:14 as the “chosen (or elect), and faithful.”

The word rendered ‘chosen’ in the King James Version is the Greek word ‘eklektoi’ and is the same word used in Matthew and Mark to describe the elect that are gathered unto Christ at His Coming after the tribulation. It is the same word that is used 23 times in the New Testament to denote the redeemed, blood-bought, members of Christ’s Church!

The Church is described as “servants” in Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6.

The Church is described as those “in / with white robes,” who arewashed in the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14.

The Church is described as “kings and priests” in Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.

God’s people are described as “souls” twice in Revelation, both in a heavenly context, both thus relating to the disembodied saints, in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4.

The disembodied saintsare also known as “fellowservants” in Revelation 6:11.

The Church is also described as a “woman” in Revelation 12:1,4, 6,13,15,16 and 17.

The Church is also describedas “the temple” in Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2. Notwithstanding, there are other passages in Revelation that could link the temple to the Church.

The Church in heaven is described in Revelation 14:13 as “the dead which die in the Lord.”

The Church is described in Revelation 15:2 as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark.”

The Church is also known in Revelation as they that “overcometh” - Revelation2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7.

The saints are described in Revelation 16:15 as they “that watcheth, and keepeth their garments.”

The Church is also expressed in Revelation 18:4, 19:1, 21:3 as God’s “people.”

The Church is also described as “the bride” of Christ inRevelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17, and similarly as the “Lamb'swife” in Revelation19:7 and 21:9.

Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14 describes the Church as “they that do/keep God’s commandments.”

Revelation 21:24 describes the Church as “them which are saved.”

Revelation 21:27 describes the Church as “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

The above are all terms that describe the universal Church of Jesus Christ and which are commonly used (and perfectly understood) by all sensible Christians to depict that great chosen people among the nations.

There are many different references throughout the whole book of Revelation to the existence, testimony and endurance of Christians during the tribulation period. These saints are described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). If these aren’t Christians, what are they?

A passage that ably supports this supposition and locates the Christian in the tribulation period is Revelation 14:12-13, which says, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

The “patience of the saints” here in verse 12 is clearly the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9).

The means by which these saints overcome the devil, the world and the flesh during great tribulation is the exact same as that employed by Christians throughout history. Those Christians that carry “the testimony of Jesus” in the tribulation are seen to conquer Satan by “the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11), again, confirming their sure unitary position within the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.

Paul

revrobor
Jul 18th 2008, 01:06 AM
The only time the Lord is going to "...snatch us away..." is just before He destroys this Earth and the heavens and creates the New Earth and new heavens (space) ( Rev. 21) and that's AFTER His millennial reign. It's possible we are going through the tribulation now. The Great Tribulation comes after the Millennial Kingdom when Satan and the non-believers (who have been "snatched away" - see Ps. 37: 9-11, 20, 22, 29) are cast back down on the Earth (Rev. 20:1-3). Those who have died as Believers will return with the Lord (see 1 Thes. 3:13) when He comes to set up His Kingdom.

fellowservant
Jul 18th 2008, 04:13 AM
First, Scripture states that the bondage of corruption is removed when we are glorified (Romans 8). It also says that corruption cannot inherit the new earth (1 Cor 15). Premil saturates the new earth with all the ugly result of the fall.

Paul

Hi

Well I'm a little confused here with your comments, i myself who am basically classical Premill have never seen Premills teach that there will still be all the ugly result of the fall in the new heaven and earth. Rev 21-22 i believe settles that argument. I'm talking about the millennium here, not the new heaven and earth. Does Amill teach that the millennium will continue into the new heaven and earth? Seems like thats what your saying above about Premill? Man if they do, that so called wooden 1000 years is going a long way.

God bless

wpm
Jul 18th 2008, 04:30 AM
Hi

Well I'm a little confused here with your comments, i myself who am basically classical Premill have never seen Premills teach that there will still be all the ugly result of the fall in the new heaven and earth. Rev 21-22 i believe settles that argument. I'm talking about the millennium here, not the new heaven and earth. Does Amill teach that the millennium continues into the new heaven and earth? Seems like thats what your saying above about Premill? Man if they do, that so called wooden 1000 years is going a long way.

God bless

Ok, there may be some Premils like yourself that don't locate Isaiah 65:17-21 and Isaiah 66:22-24 in the millennium but most do in my experience, in fact all that I have debated with.

Paul

fellowservant
Jul 18th 2008, 05:09 AM
Ok, there may be some Premils like yourself that don't locate Isaiah 65:17-21 and Isaiah 66:22-24 in the millennium but most do in my experience, in fact all that I have debated with.

Paul

Well it says in them scriptures you posted that there will be no more crying or sorrow, and it does mention a new heaven and earth. Maybe its the dieing part if it is correct, that gets them confused with the mill and the new earth. As there is not supposed to be death in the new heaven and earth either, if thats what Isaiah is implying. I'm also not a dispensational Premill, there is a difference.

(ESV) No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed. Isa 65:20


(GNB) Babies will no longer die in infancy, and all people will live out their life span. Those who live to be a hundred will be considered young. To die before that would be a sign that I had punished them. Isa 65:20


(CEV) No child will die in infancy; everyone will live to a ripe old age. Anyone a hundred years old will be considered young, and to die younger than that will be considered a curse. Isa 65:20


(KJVA) There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:20

As you can see the above verse from Isaiah 65:20 can be confusing, if he is referring to the new heaven and earth. Because death is not supposed to be possible in the new earth as well, along with the crying or sorrow, rev 21-4.

God bless

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2008, 11:23 AM
Well of course pretrib doesn't believe that Paul's trumpet is the 7th trumpet that Jesus was speaking of when He returns to fight the Nations on Earth, but He wasn't speaking of the Rapture. 2 separate events, rapture of the Church and the personal return of the Lord Jesus to reign 1000 yrs upon the earth. The elect means chosen so are they the chosen Israelites, the chosen (meaning the Church?) or the chosen of those who survive the trib? The elect doesn't always mean those saved from beginning to the end. For example, Jesus said " You are Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church. Since He said "I will build my church" does that mean that the church didn't exist in the O. T? Was Abraham saved? We believe he is. So is Abraham part of the Church? I would think he is the saved of the O.T believers but isn't that before Jesus said "I will build my church? In Matt 27:52 it is said that when the veil of the temple was rent that tombs were opened and then when Jesus was resurrected the bodies of the saints who had died arose and was seen by many in the city. It doesn't say anywhere that they died again. And surely it was not the resurrection of All those who had died already. If you think about it, why is this account there at this particuliar time? And since it was when Jesus rose again why was it only a few and not all? I don't know but these are questions I have to ask myself.
Did the 7th trumpet blow then? No. The Lord Jesus was the firstfruits of those who were dead. To say that Jesus arose first and then this group did afterwards why is it so hard to believe that the catching up of the Church before the trib cannot be a different resurrection than the general one at the end of Revelation?
Daniel was told to go his way to the end; the he will enter into rest and rise again for his allotted portion at the end of the age, so doesn't anyone ever wonder why Daniel wasn't one of the ones who rose after Jesus was resurrected?
On the side, I've also heard that those who believe in the pretrib rapture of the church almost have to be somewhat dispensational or it doesn't make sense.

According to what Jesus said in this scripture, does he say he returns before or after the tribulation?

Mt 24:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mt 24:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Firstfruits

Yankee Candle
Jul 18th 2008, 01:14 PM
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven."

Of course Christ will appear at the appointed time...in the eyes of all those who are still alive at the end of that terrible time of tribulation. But He will not appear to the whole world when He comes as "A thief in the night" to remove His bride (the church) before He pours out his wrath on this world.

Like a thief who breaks into a house in the middle of the night and takes what he wants and leaves quietly, so will Jesus come and take His own by stealth. Only after that will the noise (tribulation) begin.

Those who don't believe in the pre-tribulation rapture as Paul taught it are robbing themselves of the comfort that the Holy Spirit gave in I Thessalonians where we are informed twice 1:10 & 5:9 that believers are not appointed to wrath and that we can comfort one another with this truth.

The Lord did not tell those dear Thessalonians, "You will be hated, hunted down like dogs, some of you will be beheaded, you will see warfare, bloodshed, famine, pestilence, and multiplied millions die before your eyes...but don't worry, be comforted in these words!"

No way.

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Luke 21:36


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

RevLogos
Jul 18th 2008, 01:17 PM
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven."

Of course Christ will appear at the appointed time...in the eyes of all those who are still alive at the end of that terrible time of tribulation. But He will not appear to the whole world when He comes as "A thief in the night" to remove His bride (the church) before He pours out his wrath on this world.




Once the church is raptured and all believers are in heaven, what is the point of the 7 years of torture and suffering then? Why not just be done with it?

IBWatching
Jul 18th 2008, 02:42 PM
...The Church is described as “kings and priests” in Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6....

Thanks for bringing up these passages. They help prove my point. Here's 1:6. Note the tense...


Revelation 1:6 and He has made us {to be} a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him {be} the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.:Here the Church is told that they have already entered the Kingdom and are already Priests. Now 5:10...


Revelation 5:10 "You have made them {to be} a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." Again, this group, which includes the 24 Elders, has already been made into a Kingdom and made Priests. And it is said they will reign on the earth in the future. In the entire OT, right up to the time of the Cross, no saints were ever promised to reign on the earth, save the Disciples. Who, of course, became part of the Church. Now 20:6...


Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.Here we have the context talking about those who take part in the resurrection at the end of the tribulation period. They have not yet been made priests to God. So my question to you is, how is it that if my viewpoint is wrong and a saint is a saint is a saint, are there Elders singing in heaven about already being in the Kingdom and already being Priests when there are dead saints who aren't yet priests?



The means by which these saints overcome the devil, the world and the flesh during great tribulation is the exact same as that employed by Christians throughout history. Those Christians that carry “the testimony of Jesus” in the tribulation are seen to conquer Satan by “the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11), again, confirming their sure unitary position within the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ...

Both Paul and John wrote elsewhere in the New Testament about the antichrist. In neither case did they advise the Church to not take the Mark of the Beast. In fact, in 1 John, he stated clearly that the Church had already (there's that word again) overcome both satan and the antichrist through the Indwelling of Jesus Christ.

I have yet to argue that the saints of all ages are not part of the Household of God. The distinction between OT and Church saints is clear from the rest of Scripture. And you still have not answered my question about Hebrews 11. :)

wpm
Jul 18th 2008, 02:45 PM
if he is referring to the new heaven and earth. Because death is not supposed to be possible in the new earth as well, along with the crying or sorrow, rev 21-4.


I agree Isaiah 65:20 is worded in a peculiar manner, but there can be little doubt this is referring to the eternal state. One difficult statement cannot nullify the location of the same by the Holy Spirit. Also, Scripture makes clear that the new heavens and a new earth are free of all the fruit of the bondage of corruption. Despite what some would suggest, this passage does not contradict repeated Scripture that states there is no vestige of the fall in the new heavens and a new earth.

It says, “the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.” This verse has divided theologians over the years because of its unusual wording. Premillennialists normally advance Isaiah 65 and 66 to support their millennial viewpoint; however, neither chapter makes the slightest reference to an earthly millennium kingdom after the Second Coming. Rather, both commence by speaking of this presence age and terminate by speaking of the new heaven and the new earth. Neither chapter knows anything of a future millennium. Whilst it is difficult to dissect every minute detail in passages like this, we know that the information in view is definitely describing the period of the “new heavens and a new earth.”

So what is the meaning of this phrase? Isaiah 65:20 seems to be a metaphor which is presented in such a way as to indicate that there will be no ageing or death during the eternal state. It cannot in any way indicate that righteous children will die in eternity – a fact that few would deny. Such an absurd notion would obviously disregard plain truth, and contradict repeated Scripture to the contrary. Scripture tells us, death is totally and finally destroyed at the Second Coming for the believer. As we have said, it must therefore be viewed as a metaphor rather than a literal happening. This assumption is reinforced by the introductory language of same passage in question, which says, “there shall be no more thence an infant of days.” This seems to be worded in such a way as to in some way explain the great mystery of eternity. It appears to be contrasting what we on earth would deem long-life to what in eternity would be considered mere infancy.

As we have already stated, we can be assured Scripture never in any place contradicts itself. Therefore, it is either our understanding that is limited or the original that is imperfect. We know it can’t be the latter. Even though there is a difficulty in reconciling both statements, commonsense alone tells us there must either be infants after Christ’s coming or else no infants. There are plainly no in-betweens. Such an absurd notion is impossible. The language of Isaiah 65:20 seems to be used in order to impress the idea that there will be no more growing old and no dying during this time. Anyway, if a natural child was to live to be a hundred years old then it would no longer be a child. So, it seems to be a hyperbole statement used to underscore the spiritual truth that there will be no more death or sorrow.

Further grounds for believing this phrase in Isaiah 65:20 is a hyperbole statement is found in the preceding verse of the chapter – Isaiah 65:19 – which says, “the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.” This confirms that there will never again be sadness or weeping in the kingdom that follows Christ’s Coming. Commenting on this passage Robert B. Strimple, says, “were it literally true that a man who died at a hundred would be considered a mere youth (65:20), then tears would be shed at his passing.”

This raises another difficulty for the Premillennialist; there can be no more tears during the whole duration of their supposed future millennial kingdom. Not another tear from a mother in childbirth, nor another cry from a child receiving correction, no more weeping from the penitent sinner under conviction, no more mourning during bereavement. Evidently, weeping and tears either terminate on the new earth or they don’t. If there is no sorrow and crying, how then could there be death? Are people just going to be totally immune to the pain and gravity of death? Are people going to be completely insensitive during this supposed future millennial kingdom to the point where no one even cries when someone dies? Premillennialists interpret this passage in such a way that would suggest that there will be weeping on the new earth, thus contradicting Isaiah 65:19. But this cannot be so. We all know that there is no contradiction here. Such a proposal would be absurd.

Paul

wpm
Jul 18th 2008, 02:53 PM
2. There is no word "good" in Romans 11 pertaining to olive trees. Just "wild" and "natural". The natural olive tree represents the household of God before Israel rejected Christ. Jews who rejected Christ and remained so at the time of Paul's writing this were branches broken off of the natural olive tree because of their unbelief. Gentiles who came into the Church were wild olive branches grafted into the natural olive tree. Jews who would believe in Christ and come into the Church are branches of the natural olive tree grafted back into it.



Romans 11:24 declares: "For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree."

Paul

wpm
Jul 18th 2008, 02:55 PM
Both Paul and John wrote elsewhere in the New Testament about the antichrist. In neither case did they advise the Church to not take the Mark of the Beast. In fact, in 1 John, he stated clearly that the Church had already (there's that word again) overcome both satan and the antichrist through the Indwelling of Jesus Christ.



Rev is the only place we hear the term mark of the beast, that does not negate the fact it is mentioned elsewher. I identifying it with the mark of reprobation.


you still have not answered my question about Hebrews 11.

Please repeat it. I am not sure where it is.

Paul

bondservant4him
Jul 18th 2008, 03:12 PM
does rapture happen before tribulation or after?

Yankee Candle
Jul 18th 2008, 03:23 PM
does rapture happen before tribulation or after?

Before.

Luke 21:36, I Thessalonians 4:15-18.

Take comfort in these words.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

David Taylor
Jul 18th 2008, 03:28 PM
Before.

Luke 21:36, I Thessalonians 4:15-18.

Take comfort in these words.




Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!



Luke 21:36 doesn't provide rapture time.

I Thessalonians 4:15-18 doesn't provide rapture timing either; except to say that it occurs at "the coming of the Lord", when "the Lord descends from Heaven".

Nothing in either of those passages says pre-trib or before.

Luke 21; is a parallel of Matthew 24 and Mark 13; which tell us the Coming of the Lord is after the tribulation.

A tendable arguement from the those two verses exists for the post-trib return of Christ from Heaven; not for a pre-trib one.

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2008, 03:43 PM
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven."

Of course Christ will appear at the appointed time...in the eyes of all those who are still alive at the end of that terrible time of tribulation. But He will not appear to the whole world when He comes as "A thief in the night" to remove His bride (the church) before He pours out his wrath on this world.

Like a thief who breaks into a house in the middle of the night and takes what he wants and leaves quietly, so will Jesus come and take His own by stealth. Only after that will the noise (tribulation) begin.

Those who don't believe in the pre-tribulation rapture as Paul taught it are robbing themselves of the comfort that the Holy Spirit gave in I Thessalonians where we are informed twice 1:10 & 5:9 that believers are not appointed to wrath and that we can comfort one another with this truth.

The Lord did not tell those dear Thessalonians, "You will be hated, hunted down like dogs, some of you will be beheaded, you will see warfare, bloodshed, famine, pestilence, and multiplied millions die before your eyes...but don't worry, be comforted in these words!"

No way.

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Luke 21:36


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg


Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!



Are you saying that according to the following that Jesus return and the end of the world take place before the tribulation, meaning that this heaven and earth cannot pass away when he returns as a thief?

2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Pet 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Can this be before the tribulation, or is it after?

When do you believe the heaven and earth will pass away?

Firstfruits

IBWatching
Jul 18th 2008, 04:00 PM
Romans 11:24 declares: "For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree."

Paul

You're arguing semantics here. The Greek word is the same in the Nestles as it is in the TR which your KJV was translated from. It means "cultivated". That's all. I guess if I wanted to continue arguing this point, where else would one get natural branches from other than a natural tree?

IBWatching
Jul 18th 2008, 04:10 PM
It's not premillennial thought that is a accused of being a recent invention. It's pre-trib and dispensational premil thought. I understand what you're saying in your post but that doesn't change the fact that there are no writings of any early church fathers who spoke of a belief in pre-trib and/or dispensationalism.

Still misses my point. I don't think ANY end times camp can claim a consensus of a particular interpretation from ANY ECF based on what I said in my post. There's no proof that there was ANY consensus at all.

IBWatching
Jul 18th 2008, 04:11 PM
does rapture happen before tribulation or after?

The one time gathering/changing of Church saints takes place prior to the Day of the Lord.

IBWatching
Jul 18th 2008, 04:15 PM
...
Rev is the only place we hear the term mark of the beast, that does not negate the fact it is mentioned elsewher. I identifying it with the mark of reprobation...

I agree. It is what will send people from the Tribulation period eventually to the lake of fire. But if you believe this, then where is the warning in the rest of the NT for the Church?




Please repeat it. I am not sure where it is.

Paul


Post #18...this thread.

wpm
Jul 18th 2008, 04:16 PM
Still misses my point. I don't think ANY end times camp can claim a consensus of a particular interpretation from ANY ECF based on what I said in my post. There's no proof that there was ANY consensus at all.

The only consensus is that there were no Pretribbers among them or up until 1830. Facts are stubborn things. If I am wrong: Who before McDonald believed in (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

Paul

John146
Jul 18th 2008, 04:16 PM
The one time gathering/changing of Church saints takes place prior to the Day of the Lord.2 Thess 2:1-2 equates the two.

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. - 2 Thess 2:1-2

This is from the KJV, but other translations have "the day of the Lord" rather than "the day of Christ". Either way, it's the same thing. And this passage indicates that the coming of Christ and our gathering together unto Him are synonymous with "the day of Christ/the Lord". Christ will come and we will be gathered unto Him on the day of the Lord.

John146
Jul 18th 2008, 04:17 PM
Still misses my point. I don't think ANY end times camp can claim a consensus of a particular interpretation from ANY ECF based on what I said in my post. There's no proof that there was ANY consensus at all.I didn't claim there was any consensus. I'm saying that none of them believed in pre-trib. Do you have any evidence otherwise?

wpm
Jul 18th 2008, 04:18 PM
I agree. It is what will send people from the Tribulation period eventually to the lake of fire. But if you believe this, then where is the warning in the rest of the NT for the Church?
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Post #18...this thread.

I didn't touch it because Dave T ably addressed it.

Paul

IBWatching
Jul 18th 2008, 04:21 PM
2 Thess 2:1-2 equates the two.

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. - 2 Thess 2:1-2

This is from the KJV, but other translations have "the day of the Lord" rather than "the day of Christ". Either way, it's the same thing. And this passage indicates that the coming of Christ and our gathering together unto Him are synonymous with "the day of Christ/the Lord". Christ will come and we will be gathered unto Him on the day of the Lord.

From my first post (#13) in this thread:


...It's the same with the topic of this thread. So many different views and ideas about Jesus' "coming" with so many who don't even understand what the word means in Scripture...

Don't forget the word "parousia" in verse 9, where it also pertains to the antichrist.

IBWatching
Jul 18th 2008, 04:27 PM
...Do you have any evidence otherwise?

What would be the point? As I have already stated several times, there is no irrefutable evidence...from anyone. I can accept history from the ECF's but without knowing who influenced them, what their personal hermeneutics were, and what their worldview was at that time, their comments on Scripture are just ancient opinion.

For all we know, so many may have believed in pre-trib that only the dissenters needed a soapbox. (wink)

IBWatching
Jul 18th 2008, 04:29 PM
I didn't touch it because Dave T ably addressed it.

Paul

See. Now that wasn't so hard, was it? ;)

Mograce2U
Jul 18th 2008, 04:36 PM
Firstfruits,
Have you considered 2 Pet 3 in light of Hosea 2:18+?

Yankee Candle
Jul 18th 2008, 06:49 PM
"2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away ..."

You asked if this event comes before or after the tribulation. Answer: both. It will happen in two stages.

The thief cometh first for His bride invisibly....and then seven yrs later He returns visibly to destroy the wicked and establish His kingdom.

It should be seen in the same sense as Jesus preaching on Isaiah 61:2

"To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn."

What time frame does this prophecy happen, the past or the future? Answer: both.

Jesus read the passage to the Jews in the synagogue in Nazerath, saying, 'to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,' and then right in the middle of verse two he closed the book and sat down. Then He told them that on THAT DAY the part of the verse He had read was fulfilled. Why didn't He read the rest of the verse, 'and the day of vengeance of our God'? Because the rest of the prophecy (in the same verse!) will not be fulfilled until (guess when?;)) the tribulation period.

The same principle applies to the prophecy of I Peter that you quoted.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

wpm
Jul 18th 2008, 06:57 PM
"2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away ..."

You asked if this event comes before or after the tribulation. Answer: both. It will happen in two stages.

The thief cometh first for His bride invisibly....and then seven yrs later He returns visibly to destroy the wicked and establish His kingdom.

It should be seen in the same sense as Jesus preaching on Isaiah 61:2

"To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn."

What time frame does this prophecy happen, the past or the future? Answer: both.

Jesus read the passage to the Jews in the synagogue in Nazerath, saying, 'to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,' and then right in the middle of verse two he closed the book and sat down. Then He told them that on THAT DAY the part of the verse He had read was fulfilled. Why didn't He read the rest of the verse, 'and the day of vengeance of our God'? Because the rest of the prophecy (in the same verse!) will not be fulfilled until (guess when?;)) the tribulation period.

The same principle applies to the prophecy of I Peter that you quoted.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


My question is: Can you show me anywhere in Scripture that you consider indicates (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation (or period of wrath), (3) immediately followed by a Coming of Christ?

You have yet to show this.

Paul

Firstfruits
Jul 18th 2008, 07:21 PM
Firstfruits,
Have you considered 2 Pet 3 in light of Hosea 2:18+?

Thanks Mograce2u,

Would you say that that is concerning the new earth/Jerusalem, which would then also apply to the following which is fulfilled after the millennium?

Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I believe that this is what we are looking for, isn't it? A new heaven and a new earth.

Firstfruits

Mograce2U
Jul 18th 2008, 07:31 PM
Thanks Mograce2u,

Would you say that that is concerning the new earth/Jerusalem, which would then also apply to the following which is fulfilled after the millennium?

Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I believe that this is what we are looking for, isn't it? A new heaven and a new earth.

FirstfruitsYes I believe we can find what the new heavens and earth is by finding what the type is in the OT so we can see its spiritual fulfillment. We tend to go to 2 Peter first and only see a cataclysmic end to the physical realm but its typology is already rooted in a spiritual renewal. I am still working on it. ;)

Yankee Candle
Jul 18th 2008, 08:33 PM
My question is: Can you show me anywhere in Scripture that you consider indicates (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation (or period of wrath), (3) immediately followed by a Coming of Christ?

You have yet to show this.

Paul

Oh, but I have! I would kindly suggest that you scroll back on this thread and the other thread on the rapture and you will see plenty of it.

The real key is understanding the connection between Revelation 4:1-2 and I Corinthians 15;51-52 and I Thessalonians 4:15-18. The connection is unmistakable. John's 'rapture' in A.D. 86 on the island of Patmos prefigured what we will experience when Jesus calls us to meet Him in the air.




Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

John146
Jul 18th 2008, 08:37 PM
Oh, but I have! I would kindly suggest that you scroll back on this thread and the other thread on the rapture and you will see plenty of it.

The real key is understanding the connection between Revelation 4:1-2 and I Corinthians 15;51-52 and I Thessalonians 4:15-18. The connection is unmistakable. John's 'rapture' in A.D. 86 on the island of Patmos prefigured what we will experience when Jesus calls us to meet Him in the air.


http://s62.photobucket.com/albums/h106/Martyrs5/th_Jan26560.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!
John was not "raptured" physically. And he was just one person. So, how can you make the connection of one man, John, being caught up to heaven in a spiritual sense to the physical rapture of the church? That's nonsense. It would make much more sense to compare the catching up of the two witnesses, who are said to have died physically and came to life before being caught up. That is a valid comparison. Not Rev 4:1-2.

Clifton
Jul 18th 2008, 09:23 PM
does rapture happen before tribulation or after?

10 days before.

Blessings.

wpm
Jul 18th 2008, 10:23 PM
Oh, but I have! I would kindly suggest that you scroll back on this thread and the other thread on the rapture and you will see plenty of it.

The real key is understanding the connection between Revelation 4:1-2 and I Corinthians 15;51-52 and I Thessalonians 4:15-18. The connection is unmistakable. John's 'rapture' in A.D. 86 on the island of Patmos prefigured what we will experience when Jesus calls us to meet Him in the air.


http://s62.photobucket.com/albums/h106/Martyrs5/th_Jan26560.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


Revelation 4:1

Revelation 4:1 is not the rapture. There is no Pretrib rapture there. It is a record of John being caught up in the Spirit into heaven 2,000 yrs ago to receive a remarkable supernatural insight into the spiritual realm. Do you believe the rapture has already occurred?

I Thessalonians 4:15-18

There is no Pretrib rapture in I Corinthians 15:51-52 or I Thessalonians 4:15-18. In fact, these correlate and refer to the climactic Coming of Christ. Collectively they expose the Pretrib theory. These refer to the one and only future coming of Christ. You have confirmed there is no proof for this theory by your avoidance of by simple query. You, or no Pretrib, can prove this. I have presented it for yrs and am still waiting an answer.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”

This passage corroborates the Posttrib position. Christ comes with and for His saints in one glorious final Coming. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” I have already highlighted the fact the word rendered “remain” in our King James Version is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can assume from this meaning that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving.

Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. Furthermore, we learn that the swiftness that the travail of childbirth comes upon a woman will be the way destruction suddenly hits the wicked. It is not saying that the whole child-birth experience is like the coming of the Lord, which would be needed to allow for the Premil understanding. That is not found in this text. In doing this they diminish the sudden nature of the destruction.

The Coming of Christ is here (as 2 Peter 3) likened to the appearance of “a thief in the night,” thus reinforcing the swift and unexpected nature of this climactic event and the attending judgment. Moreover, the narrative demonstrates that the devastation that accompanies this climactic event is instantaneous and that it involves “sudden destruction.” Its focus is directed fully and entirely upon the sum-total of the wicked, not merely a percentage of them. This group that is referred to as “they” who “shall not escape” relates to the aggregate Christ-rejecting community alive at His return. It is they alone that experience immediate and “sudden destruction” which “cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child”; and “they shall [assuredly] not escape.” This climactic event pulls down the curtain on time and concludes the affairs of this life.

I Corinthians 15:51-52

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 plainly declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

This reading is speaking about the change that occurs at the one and only future Coming of Christ. It is describing the change that is required to inherit the new earth. It is talking about an obligatory change that must happen in order for men to be able to inhabit the new earth. It is not just that our corruptible bodies will be changed; it is that they must be changed. Why? The kingdom that they are going to inherit is an incorrupt one. It has been purged by fire of all the bondage of corruption (Romans 8:19-23) thus restoring it back to its original state – pristine and perfect. It is not just that we are changed, but the earth is correspondingly and simultaneously changed.

Paul

Yankee Candle
Jul 18th 2008, 10:30 PM
John was not "raptured" physically. And he was just one person. So, how can you make the connection of one man, John, being caught up to heaven in a spiritual sense to the physical rapture of the church? That's nonsense. It would make much more sense to compare the catching up of the two witnesses, who are said to have died physically and came to life before being caught up. That is a valid comparison. Not Rev 4:1-2.

Oh, yes he was.

"...and I heard a voice which said unto me, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

What happened to John is EXACTLY what will happen to every true believer when the Lord calls us up to Him in the clouds. It will be 'in the twinkling of an eye."

Look, dear friend, just as Enoch 'walked with God and was not, for God took him' was a type and symbol of the coming rapture so was John's experience. It is identical to what Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:52 and it that is very obvious.

"That's nonsense. It would make much more sense to compare the catching up of the two witnesses, who are said to have died physically and came to life before being caught up."

No, it is not nonsense. The two witnesses go up slowly and alone in the SIGHT of unbelieving men but the rapture described in I Corinthians happens instantaneously. All the believers in the world will vanish instantly.

Definition: twinkling - (Greek) riph rhipe, hree-pay' a jerk (of the eye, i.e. by analogy) an instant):--twinkling.

American Heritage Dictionary:
twin·kling (tw¹ng"kl¹ng) n. 1. The act of blinking. 2. A blink or twinkle: the twinkling of a starry sky. 3. The time it takes to blink once; an instant: disappeared in the twinkling of an eye.

Have a nice evening.


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Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

Yankee Candle
Jul 18th 2008, 10:44 PM
"Revelation 4:1 is not the rapture. There is no Pretrib rapture there. It is a record of John being caught up in the Spirit into heaven 2,000 yrs ago to receive a remarkable supernatural insight into the spiritual realm. Do you believe the rapture has already occurred?"

Read carefully, friend. I said that John's experience pre-figures the rapture and it's location in the book of Revelation is clearly on purpose by the Holy Spirit to help indicate the timing of the rapture.

John was told chapter one vs 19 to write 'the things which thou hast seen (past), the things which are (present), and the things which shall be hereafter" (future).

So, John saw first

a. Jesus as a flaming figure with snow white hair. (past)
b. the letters to the churches in Asia minor as they then existed (present)
c. the things which shall come hereafter (future)...beginning with, guess what(???) John's personal rapture to heaven in order to view the things that are yet to come.

So his vision of the future begins with that personal rapture and the language that is used in 4:1-2 leads us to what was said in I Corinthians 15:51-52. There is no mistake about it. This is what the Holy Spirit intended for His people to conclude.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

wpm
Jul 18th 2008, 10:50 PM
Yankee Candle



Oh, yes he was.

"...and I heard a voice which said unto me, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

What happened to John is EXACTLY what will happen to every true believer when the Lord calls us up to Him in the clouds. It will be 'in the twinkling of an eye."


This is not referring to glorification and the arraying of the elect with their new bodies, this is simply describing John (an imperfect man still with his sinful nature) being caught up "in the spirit" into heaven). You seem to be ignoring to accept this fact.

Revelation 4:1-2 commences, “After this (speaking of his supernatural encounter with Christ on Patmos) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”

(1) Who was this command addressed to?
(2) When did, or will, this event occur?
(3) What was it specifically speaking of?

(1) John
(2) It occurred 2,000 years ago
(3) John being caught up “in the spirit” into “heaven” to receive a supernatural revelation of things to come “hereafter.”

This is a record of John being caught up “in the spirit” into “heaven” 2,000 years ago to receive a supernatural revelation of things to come “hereafter.”

In this reading, the Lord simply commands John to “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” The revelation that he would now receive would thus relate to events from this time (2,000 years ago) forth. The same idea and similar wording is found in two other passages in this apocalyptic book, after he had been caught up:

The Apostle Paul similarly testified of a man that was "caught up" into the “third heaven” – paradise to experience the mysteries of heaven and of God. Most commentators suppose Paul was personally testifying of his own experience. 2 Corinthians 12:2, 4 says, “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

This was not a physical rapture!


Look, dear friend, just as Enoch 'walked with God and was not, for God took him' was a type and symbol of the coming rapture so was John's experience. It is identical to what Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:52 and it that is very obvious.

Pretrib is built upon types and theories not explicit Scripture. Show us the 3 elements I asked. You can make the Bible say anything if you use elaborate theories - look at Morominism and Roman Catholicism.

Paul

wpm
Jul 18th 2008, 10:55 PM
"Revelation 4:1 is not the rapture. There is no Pretrib rapture there. It is a record of John being caught up in the Spirit into heaven 2,000 yrs ago to receive a remarkable supernatural insight into the spiritual realm. Do you believe the rapture has already occurred?"

Read carefully, friend. I said that John's experience pre-figures the rapture and it's location in the book of Revelation is clearly on purpose by the Holy Spirit to help indicate the timing of the rapture.

John was told chapter one vs 19 to write 'the things which thou hast seen (past), the things which are (present), and the things which shall be hereafter" (future).

So, John saw first

a. Jesus as a flaming figure with snow white hair. (past)
b. the letters to the churches in Asia minor as they then existed (present)
c. the things which shall come hereafter (future)...beginning with, guess what(???) John's personal rapture to heaven in order to view the things that are yet to come.

So his vision of the future begins with that personal rapture and the language that is used in 4:1-2 leads us to what was said in I Corinthians 15:51-52. There is no mistake about it. This is what the Holy Spirit intended for His people to conclude.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


Ok, Rev 4:1 is not the rapture, but a pre-figure, Enoch is not the rapture but a type, where is the rapture taught followed by this 7yrs trib taught by Darby followed by a third Coming? Where is it in the Bible?

Where is the rapture in Revelation? Where is the 7 yrs trib in Revelation? Where is your third Coming? Forget about your types and shadows and prefigurings for a minute. Where are these?

Paul

Yankee Candle
Jul 18th 2008, 11:07 PM
I should not overlook the fact that John was given the messages to the 7 churches in Asia minor and some of them were told that their unfaithful church (Thyatira) would suffer through 'great tribulation' if they did not repent. Well, can we rightfully conclude that that personal warning to them is also a warning to any unfaithful, apostate church as to what will happen to those kind of churches when the 'great tribulation' of the world comes upon the world? I think so.

But by contrast, John commended and blessed the faithful church, Philadelphia,

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

In line with what Paul to the church at Thessalonica that they were not subject to 'the wrath to come" and Jesus words that those counted worthy by their faith would escape that terrible time to come, then a rightful conclusion is that believers will be removed from this world before that black hour comes.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Luke 21:36.

That last phrase that Jesus spoke is the clincher..."and to stand before the Son of man." Nothing could be clearer in the whole wide world. Amen.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

wpm
Jul 18th 2008, 11:27 PM
I should not overlook the fact that John was given the messages to the 7 churches in Asia minor and some of them were told that their unfaithful church (Thyatira) would suffer through 'great tribulation' if they did not repent. Well, can we rightfully conclude that that personal warning to them is also a warning to any unfaithful, apostate church as to what will happen to those kind of churches when the 'great tribulation' of the world comes upon the world? I think so.

But by contrast, John commended and blessed the faithful church, Philadelphia,

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

In line with what Paul to the church at Thessalonica that they were not subject to 'the wrath to come" and Jesus words that those counted worthy by their faith would escape that terrible time to come, then a rightful conclusion is that believers will be removed from this world before that black hour comes.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Luke 21:36.

That last phrase that Jesus spoke is the clincher..."and to stand before the Son of man." Nothing could be clearer in the whole wide world. Amen.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


You must first show us where this 2 future literal Comings theory is built upon. You have not even addressed the arguments previously presented. You are now divereting off in another direction.

Paul

wpm
Jul 18th 2008, 11:29 PM
I should not overlook the fact that John was given the messages to the 7 churches in Asia minor and some of them were told that their unfaithful church (Thyatira) would suffer through 'great tribulation' if they did not repent. Well, can we rightfully conclude that that personal warning to them is also a warning to any unfaithful, apostate church as to what will happen to those kind of churches when the 'great tribulation' of the world comes upon the world? I think so.

But by contrast, John commended and blessed the faithful church, Philadelphia,

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

In line with what Paul to the church at Thessalonica that they were not subject to 'the wrath to come" and Jesus words that those counted worthy by their faith would escape that terrible time to come, then a rightful conclusion is that believers will be removed from this world before that black hour comes.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Luke 21:36.

That last phrase that Jesus spoke is the clincher..."and to stand before the Son of man." Nothing could be clearer in the whole wide world. Amen.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


You seem to suggest “the hour of temptation” represents an end time 7 years tribulation. Before building your argument on this principle you have to prove that it actually exists. I would like therefore to establish your proof texts for the Pretrib paradigm, because without a foundation, every other supposed support reference could be viewed as faulty. My question is: Can you show me anywhere in Scripture that you consider indicates (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation (or period of wrath), (3) immediately followed by a Coming of Christ?

Paul

Yankee Candle
Jul 18th 2008, 11:38 PM
"This is not referring to glorification and the arraying of the elect with their new bodies, this is simply describing John (an imperfect man still with his sinful nature) being caught up "in the spirit" into heaven). You seem to be ignoring to accept this fact."

I am ignoring nothing. You are, dear friend.

I would ask you kindly to read Luke 21:36 VERY CAREFULLY and think about what our Lord told us.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The pre-tribulation rapture position is NOT a theory, it is a fact. It always has been. No other postion yields a completed puzzle of prophecy as it is taught in the Bible. I have studied this issue for about 40 years and examined all of them thoroughly. Christ will come at a time unexpected and the pre-trib position is the only belief that matches that pre-requisite.

Mt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mt 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mr 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Lu 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

So unaware are we as to the time of Jesus coming that EVEN HE did not know when it will be! Talk about something that is 'imminent'? You can't get more imminent than that.

The pre-tribulation position is the only view that is completely truthful about Christ's coming.


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Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

wpm
Jul 18th 2008, 11:55 PM
No other postion yields a completed puzzle of prophecy as it is taught in the Bible. I have studied this issue for about 40 years and examined all of them thoroughly. Christ will come at a time unexpected and the pre-trib position is the only belief that matches that pre-requisite.



If you have studied it for 40yrs you should be able to provide me with Scripture that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation (or period of wrath), (3) immediately followed by a "Third Coming" of Christ?

Where are your proof-texts that teach this theory. From your silence (or avoidance) I can only assume that you have discovered like I (as a former Pretribber) that it is just a puzzle - one that enjoys no biblical foundation and one that dosn't fit.

Paul

wpm
Jul 18th 2008, 11:58 PM
I am ignoring nothing. You are, dear friend.I would ask you kindly to read Luke 21:36 VERY CAREFULLY and think about what our Lord told us.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


I Thessalonians 5:2-7, which closely parallels 2 Peter 3, corroborate the idea of the immediate and total destruction of the world/wicked at Christ one and only future Coming. It says, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.”

The word rendered “sudden” in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is the Greek word aifnídios meaning unawares, and the accompanying word olethros used here means ruin, death and/or destruction. Therefore, we can deduce from this reading that the Lord’s Coming sees the ‘unexpected ruin or destruction’ of all those left behind at the catching away. The Greek word aifnídios is only found in one other passage in Scripture – Luke 21:34-36. Here also, it is identified with the unexpected nature of the Second Coming, where Christ declares” “take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares (or) aifnídios (or suddenly). For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Here, the reader is admonished to be ready for the Lord’s return lest that day catch him aifnídios (or) suddenly. The statement in the previous passage (1 Thessalonians 5:3) “they shall not escape,” or ou mee ekfugoosin, is equally absolute in the original. The whole symbolism of the sudden ensnarement seems to be lent from Ecclesiastes 9:12, which says, “For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.”

This passage reveals the same solemn truth that Christ was outlining; when God judges, the wicked are caught suddenly in a trap with no way out. In Christ’s warning of His Coming He explains that “as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.” The snare is all-embracing. The destruction relates to all that miss the catching away; they are caught helplessly in a trap with no escape. Just like Noah and Lot’s days, there will be no survivors at the Second Coming of the Lord. The destruction shall come as a snare on all the inhabitants of the earth that are outside of Christ.

Paul

Yankee Candle
Jul 18th 2008, 11:58 PM
"You must first show us where this 2 future literal Comings theory is built upon. You have not even addressed the arguments previously presented. You are now divereting off in another direction."

I will say it nicely and gently with a smile on my face:)...baloney.

You keep quoting all kinds of scripture but you are making one misapplication as to time and circumstance after another.

I never said that there are 'two comings' of Christ. There is the 2nd Coming in two stages: first to take out his people, and secondly to destroy the wicked and establish His kingdom.

In like manner the prophets told the people of Israel that Messiah would come. But they never said, "First, he will come as a poor man, a suffering servant, and be rejected and killed...then 2,000 yrs later He will come in great power and glory and sit on the throne of David." No, they didn't put it that way. Nonetheless, both the first advent and the second advent are clearly there for all to see and we can look back at the O.T. prophecies and understand it clearly now. The Jews missed the boat with Jesus because of their failure to grasp this. There are many who are going to miss the boat when Jesus comes for His bride for the same reasons. I hope you are not among them.

I am telling you that a few hundred years from now you will be able to look back upon this matter and see the very same things as it pertains to Christ's coming. The prophecies are clear: He will come in a time of peace and also a time of war. He will come during a time of men marrying and giving in marriage, eating, drinking, etc. and He will come during a time when men are hiding in caves and forests just to stay alive. He will come during a time when it will be business as usual and no one expects anything unusual and he will come during a time of blackness, darkness, gloom and doom for the whole world. Which position is right? Answer: both. But one happens 7 years or so before the other.

Talk about ignoring things, Jesus made it clear that His coming for His people would be like a 'thief in the night' and that His people would vanish from the scene 'in the twinkling of an eye' during a time when no one would expect him; YET, you and those of your persuasion think He will come near the end of a great conflict, turmoil, bloodshed, and mankind is being wiped out by the millions...and yet the believers will NOT SUSPECT that His coming is near?

Who are you trying to fool?


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

Mograce2U
Jul 19th 2008, 12:05 AM
Yankee Candle,
Doesn't it make you wonder tho that if both Paul and John could be caught up in the Spirit in this way and even Phillip, none of whom ever left this present world; that the rapture of the living who remain at the resurrection of the dead (something the living are not likely to observe), is to be thought of in a similar spiritual fashion? Didn't Jesus pray in John 17 that those then living not be taken out of this world? If Jesus is risen from the dead as the first of the firstfruits and those in the 1st century such as the apostles were the firstfruits who followed, then all the harvest that follows ever since is in this first resurrection throughout the present age. Why do we think that something spiritual is somehow less real than something physical? Did not Jesus promise that He would never leave us nor forsake us? That He would be with us always? That He would manifest Himself to us and that He and His Father would make their abode with us - John 14. If we have been caught up to the spiritual reality of this truth then we ought to know that we WILL be with Him always!

wpm
Jul 19th 2008, 12:06 AM
I will say it nicely and gently with a smile on my face:)...baloney.

You keep quoting all kinds of scripture but you are making one misapplication as to time and circumstance after another.

I never said that there are 'two comings' of Christ. There is the 2nd Coming in two stages: first to take out his people, and secondly to destroy the wicked and establish His kingdom.

In like manner the prophets told the people of Israel that Messiah would come. But they never said, "First, he will come as a poor man, a suffering servant, and be rejected and killed...then 2,000 yrs later He will come in great power and glory and sit on the throne of David." No, they didn't put it that way. Nonetheless, both the first advent and the second advent are clearly there for all to see and we can look back at the O.T. prophecies and understand it clearly now. The Jews missed the boat with Jesus because of their failure to grasp this. There are many who are going to miss the boat when Jesus comes for His bride for the same reasons. I hope you are not among them.

I am telling you that a few hundred years from now you will be able to look back upon this matter and see the very same things as it pertains to Christ's coming. The prophecies are clear: He will come in a time of peace and also a time of war. He will come during a time of men marrying and giving in marriage, eating, drinking, etc. and He will come during a time when men are hiding in caves and forests just to stay alive. He will come during a time when it will be business as usual and no one expects anything unusual and he will come during a time of blackness, darkness, gloom and doom for the whole world. Which position is right? Answer: both. But one happens 7 years or so before the other.

Talk about ignoring things, Jesus made it clear that His coming for His people would be like a 'thief in the night' and that His people would vanish from the scene 'in the twinkling of an eye' during a time when no one would expect him; YET, you and those of your persuasion think He will come near the end of a great conflict, turmoil, bloodshed, and mankind is being wiped out by the millions...and yet the believers will NOT SUSPECT that His coming is near?

Who are you trying to fool?


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


Show me rapture passages with a 7yr trib following? Show me your 3rd Coming with a 7yrs trib before? You aren't doing so. The first principle of evidence is: he who alleges must prove. You have showed nothing. You refuse to provide anything and you refuse to address the many passages that forbid this theory that in reality emanated out of a questionable vision Margaret McDonald allegedly had in 1830.

Paul

wpm
Jul 19th 2008, 12:13 AM
I never said that there are 'two comings' of Christ. There is the 2nd Coming in two stages: first to take out his people, and secondly to destroy the wicked and establish His kingdom.

But Pretrib applies parousia (Coming) passages to both their 2nd and 3rd Comings? Right or wrong?

Paul

wpm
Jul 19th 2008, 02:01 AM
Yankee Candle

1Thessalonians 4:15-17 says,“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the parousia (or) coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever.”

Is this your rapture or your Second Advent?

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us,“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his parousia (or) coming. Then cometh the end.”

Is this your rapture or your Second Advent?

2 Peter 3:3-4 says, “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his parousia coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.”

The reading continues, in verses 5-7, by referring to the flood and the end of the world in relation to Christ’s one future coming, saying, “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men”

Verses 11-12 continues,“Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the parousia coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Is this your rapture or your Second Advent?

Paul

My heart's Desire
Jul 19th 2008, 04:10 AM
this theory that in reality emanated out of a questionable vision Margaret McDonald allegedly had in 1830.

Paul
Don't forget that McDonald's vision was NOT pre-trib!

My heart's Desire
Jul 19th 2008, 04:14 AM
According to what Jesus said in this scripture, does he say he returns before or after the tribulation?

Mt 24:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mt 24:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mt 24:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Firstfruits
yes, and what about the other group who are reaped and thrown into the Winepress?

My heart's Desire
Jul 19th 2008, 04:15 AM
Once the church is raptured and all believers are in heaven, what is the point of the 7 years of torture and suffering then? Why not just be done with it?
Because it is Daniel's 70th week and is for Israel. I believe God has promised Israel things that will still be filled, for God is faithful.

RevLogos
Jul 19th 2008, 04:29 AM
Talk about ignoring things, Jesus made it clear that His coming for His people would be like a 'thief in the night' and that His people would vanish from the scene 'in the twinkling of an eye' during a time when no one would expect him; YET, you and those of your persuasion think He will come near the end of a great conflict, turmoil, bloodshed, and mankind is being wiped out by the millions...and yet the believers will NOT SUSPECT that His coming is near?



Why do you say no one will suspect the coming is near? That is not what scripture says. In 1 Th 5:4-11 Paul makes it clear that Jesus' coming is a surprise only to those who do NOT believe. The believers may not know the exact moment, but we will know the time is near. Paul is telling us to be watchful, alert and sober.

Peter makes it clear that when this happens, the earth and heavens will pass away.

2 Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

Paul doesn't add another 7 years of tribulations after this event before the heavens pass away. Why not?

RevLogos
Jul 19th 2008, 04:33 AM
Because it is Daniel's 70th week and is for Israel. I believe God has promised Israel things that will still be filled, for God is faithful.

What specifically in Daniel is the promise that has yet to be fulfilled?

Clifton
Jul 19th 2008, 11:51 AM
Don't forget that McDonald's vision was NOT pre-trib!

As I recall, reading some of her stuff - she laid claimed to a 'secret vision', then that later got turned into the saying 'secret rapture', and so on. Nothing new for someone to claim a 'vision' and start a 'fire' (though whether that fire spreads to many people or not, depends).

But as for what she did state, and how it got changed over time, well, that is like it goes in a small town. Something gets started, then as the 'gossip' goes through different people, a little changes, gets added/subtracted ('spiced up') as it spreads, and by the time it gets through the town, is a quite a different story.

I remember an old REO SPEEDWAGON song...
"Heard it from a friend who heard from a friend..."

Blessings.

Yankee Candle
Jul 19th 2008, 02:03 PM
Doesn't it make you wonder tho that if both Paul and John could be caught up in the Spirit in this way and even Phillip, none of whom ever left this present world;

No, John was instantly transported to the throne room of God. All one has to do is read carefully chapters 4 & 5 of Revelation to see that. The Bible never says that Phillip was caught up to heaven. He was simply moved from one place to another.

"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." Rev. 4:2

Then concerning Philip:

"And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus..." Acts 8:39-40.

Philip was transported by the Spirit from the wilderness to Azotus.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

Yankee Candle
Jul 19th 2008, 02:40 PM
"Why do you say no one will suspect the coming is near? That is not what scripture says."

That's like saying, "Nowhere in the science textbooks does it say that the world is a sphere."

Well, the fact is that the Bible does teach the unexpected return of Christ in many places. Goodness, I have posted those statements several times right here on this thread alone!

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mark 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

This my friends, is the teaching of our Lord about His coming and that He will come at a time when He will not be expected. But if we are diligent and watching we can at least be prepared for that coming. The idea is that there is nothing that will warn us ahead of time that the hour has come. It will come, as it were, in the middle of the 'night' as a thief would break into a house, take what he wants, and then he departs quietly.

That is the true rapture. Other passages that speak of Christ coming with his angels in glory with lightning, thunder, etc. bespeak of the visible, literal return of Jesus for judgment. But every person on earth at that time who will be converted during the tribulation will expect that coming. There will be nothing unexpected about it.

The 2nd coming is in two stages; first for His bride and secondly for the judgment of the wicked and establishment of His kingdom on earth for a thousand years. This is not TWO comings to earth, for Christ will not be visible to the people on earth when He removes His bride. Only at the very end will Christ be visible to the nations.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

Firstfruits
Jul 19th 2008, 03:11 PM
Yes I believe we can find what the new heavens and earth is by finding what the type is in the OT so we can see its spiritual fulfillment. We tend to go to 2 Peter first and only see a cataclysmic end to the physical realm but its typology is already rooted in a spiritual renewal. I am still working on it. ;)

If that event takes place after the millennium, and that is when Jesus comes as a thief, then does that mean that he returns after the trubulation, and after the millennium?

Firstfruits

Clifton
Jul 19th 2008, 03:11 PM
"Why do you say no one will suspect the coming is near? That is not what scripture says."

That's like saying, "Nowhere in the science textbooks does it say that the world is a sphere."

Well, the fact is that the Bible does teach the unexpected return of Christ in many places. Goodness, I have posted those statements several times right here on this thread alone!

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mark 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

This my friends, is the teaching of our Lord about His coming and that He will come at a time when He will not be expected. But if we are diligent and watching we can at least be prepared for that coming. The idea is that there is nothing that will warn us ahead of time that the hour has come. It will come, as it were, in the middle of the 'night' as a thief would break into a house, take what he wants, and then he departs quietly.

That is the true rapture. Other passages that speak of Christ coming with his angels in glory with lightning, thunder, etc. bespeak of the visible, literal return of Jesus for judgment. But every person on earth at that time who will be converted during the tribulation will expect that coming. There will be nothing unexpected about it.

The 2nd coming is in two stages; first for His bride and secondly for the judgment of the wicked and establishment of His kingdom on earth for a thousand years. This is not TWO comings to earth, for Christ will not be visible to the people on earth when He removes His bride. Only at the very end will Christ be visible to the nations.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


You post very colorfully - that can save the reader money on coffee.:)

As for Matthew 24:42, 25:13; Mark 13:35; Luke 12:40, the parsing of the Greek where the English word "cometh" is there is in the PRESENT TENSE - INDICATIVE MOOD. This means it is a LINEAR VERB (CONTINUOUS, PROGRESSIVE, REPETITIVE), and because the Greek is in the INDICATIVE MOOD here, it means the LINEAR action(s) is/are "currently" taking place at the time spoken/written, i.e. "I GO to school";

The verses are admonition and encouragement, showing that our Lord comes daily (whether it is to give you strength, prepare you for a trial, to remove you from the Earth, etc.). So it is not "confined" to the future only as something that has never yet happened, and that is why you do not see the verb "will/shall" (come) there, etc. Though in a certain sense, such a verb would be applicable - but keeping it as it is, in the Linear form, gives it and us more strength.

Most of the Greek words/variations underlying the English words "come, present, go" are linked to Strong's Number 2064.

Blessings.

IBWatching
Jul 19th 2008, 05:43 PM
The OT saints only had the promises to listen to and learn about.

The Saints the Hebrews writer is addressing, who were living in the 1st Century A.D. were much better off because...."we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us"

They beheld with their own eyes, touched with their own hands, and were living breathing eye-witnesses to GOD ALMIGHTY walking among themselves.

Wow.....the dimly imagined promises the OT Saints yearned for, they held and saw and looked upon with their very own hands, ears, and eyes!!!

That's what the Hebrews listening audience had better than...over the OT saints of old.

Well I finally had time to get back to you David. To be fair to you, I am not understanding what the passage in 1 John 1 has to do with the context of Hebrews 11. Perhaps you could explain that first before I go any further....?

Thank you. :)

RevLogos
Jul 19th 2008, 05:53 PM
Doe the pre-trib view have any opinion as to who the restrainer is? The one who holds back evil until it is removed?

2Th 2:6 And so you know what holds him back, so that he will be revealed in his own time.
2Th 2:7 For the hidden power of lawlessness is already at work. However, the one who holds him back will do so until he is taken out of the way,
2Th 2:8 and then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will destroy by the breath of his mouth and wipe out by the manifestation of his arrival.
Someone had told me at one time that this was the Holy Spirit, which left the earth with the rapture. But I'm not sure if that's a necessary component of the pre-trib view.

Yankee Candle
Jul 19th 2008, 06:08 PM
If that event takes place after the millennium, and that is when Jesus comes as a thief, then does that mean that he returns after the trubulation, and after the millennium?

Firstfruits

The coming of God's kingdom comes in two stages also.

a. during the millenium (death and age still exists) Isaiah 65:17-25.
b. during the eternal state after the New Jerusalem comes (no death, no curse) Revelation 21 & 22.

God bless each of you.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

RevLogos
Jul 19th 2008, 06:08 PM
That is the true rapture. Other passages that speak of Christ coming with his angels in glory with lightning, thunder, etc. bespeak of the visible, literal return of Jesus for judgment. But every person on earth at that time who will be converted during the tribulation will expect that coming. There will be nothing unexpected about it.



We may just have to agree to disagree. Or perhaps we are in violent agreement. We will not know the day nor the hour. But we can discern the season. Paul tells us the Lord will indeed come as a thief in darkness, but also says we are not in darkness thus will not be overtaken as by a thief.

I am supposing then that all verses describing Jesus' return "like a thief" refer to the rapture. But then I'd still like your opinion of 2 Pe 3:10 which says the Lord will appear like a thief, and then the Heavens will, at the same time, pass away with a horrific noise. This must refer to the final second coming, yet this will be unexpected.

IBWatching
Jul 19th 2008, 06:18 PM
...The 2nd coming is in two stages; first for His bride and secondly for the judgment of the wicked and establishment of His kingdom on earth for a thousand years. This is not TWO comings to earth, for Christ will not be visible to the people on earth when He removes His bride. Only at the very end will Christ be visible to the nations....

See? It is possible to say it without using the word "phases". :lol:

Unfortunately, you still used the word "stages" which is almost as bad. There are two "parousia's" (comings) of Jesus Christ in the future. One is in the air, to gather/change the Church, before the Day of the Lord starts. The other is to the earth (His return, the second coming to the earth) after the Great Tribulation period

The other "parousia" in 2 Thess 2 is in verse 9, and refers to the "coming" of the antichrist. The word has the same meaning in all instances and is not event related. It is location/personage related.

Firstfruits
Jul 19th 2008, 06:32 PM
The coming of God's kingdom comes in two stages also.

a. during the millennium (death and age still exists) Isaiah 65:17-25.
b. during the eternal state after the New Jerusalem comes (no death, no curse) Revelation 21 & 22.

God bless each of you.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


According to the following scripture, when Jesus returns as a thief, it will also be the day of the Lord, The heaven and earth will pass away, it will be judgment day;

2 Pet 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Pet 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Pet 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2 Pet 3:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Rev 21:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Can you explain your understanding of these scriptures?

Thanks,

Firstfruits

RevLogos
Jul 19th 2008, 06:34 PM
The 2nd coming is in two stages; first for His bride and secondly for the judgment of the wicked and establishment of His kingdom on earth for a thousand years. This is not TWO comings to earth, for Christ will not be visible to the people on earth when He removes His bride. Only at the very end will Christ be visible to the nations.




In the parable of the 10 virgins, the Bride and Bridegroom meet. Is this parable about the rapture or the second coming?

cephas
Jul 19th 2008, 07:50 PM
I think if people would would use the word the bible uses Resurrection instead of the word rapture,which is acceptable,they would come away with the right attitude of the meaning,this should not be about a rapture,but about the resurrection,and thats what happens when you use the word rapture ,it takes you away from what Jesus and his disciples were really talking about, and what about what our forefathers taught themselves,I mean after all John discipled poly carp and poly carp discipled ireaneus ,and he wrote the book on hereisies,and ireaneaus states emphatically that the church will go through the the tribulation.

revrobor
Jul 20th 2008, 01:20 AM
[QUOTE
The 2nd coming is in two stages; first for His bride and secondly for the judgment of the wicked and establishment of His kingdom on earth for a thousand years. This is not TWO comings to earth, for Christ will not be visible to the people on earth when He removes His bride. Only at the very end will Christ be visible to the nations.


Jesus returns to this Earth once to establish His millennial kingdom. At the end of that thousand years the Believers are removed and Satan and the non-believers who were "raptured" (see Ps. 37) are thrown back down on Earth for the Great Tribulation. After that time the judgements take place, this Earth and the heavens are destroyed, God creates the New Earth (where we spend Eternity) and new heavens (space) and the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven (not touching Earth) where Jesus reigns and is the light for the Earth as there will be no sun.

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 02:32 AM
I have already read that in here and it in no way was anything addressed what I had to say,because actually the first 1800 years was pre dominantly post trib and all the great church reformers were pre trib. what I said was if one would read the bible as using only the word resurrection,He would never come to a pre trib resurrection,just try and do it that way.

John
39
And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day.
40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day.


44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day.

54
Whoever eats 19 (http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/john/john6.htm#foot19) my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.


Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Did Jesus say I am the RAPTURE ,no he only talks about a resurrection

24
Martha said to him, "I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.

And when is the first resurrection


4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.


How can there be a rapture of the dead.how can the dead in christ rise first,because they are in the first resurrection and that is not until the thousand years have ended

that is why I feel that we should not use the word rapture but resurrection,after all the is all the bible uses,and Jesus said just to keep it clear I am the resurrection and the life,He did not say I am the rapture.


Now when exactly concerning the tribulation,What Did Jesus in very own words say himself about when he would return


Mattthew 24:29,30,31


29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm) and the powers of heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm) shall be moved. The stars... Or flaming meteors resembling stars.
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14144a.htm) in heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm). And then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14144a.htm) coming in the clouds of heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm) with much power and majesty. The sign, etc... The cross (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04517a.htm) of Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm).

31 And he shall send his angels (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm) with a trumpet and a great voice: and they shall gather together his elect (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05374a.htm) from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm) to the utmost bounds of them.

There you have it Jesus in his own words stating himself he will not return until after the tribulation,verse 31 must also be the last trumpet

Another thing I would like to point out is they say well since its Gods wrath we will not be here,but think about this in the flood,Gods wrath who was taken and who was left

In the passover Gods wrath who was taken and who was left

In every instance I can think of it was the wicked taken out and gods people left

Sodom and Gomorrah Gods wrath,who was taken and who was left


we must endure to the end
Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


John 17:15
I pray (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2065.htm) not (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3756.htm) that (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2443.htm) thou shouldest take (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/142.htm) them (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/846.htm) out of (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1537.htm) the world (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2889.htm) but (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/235.htm) that (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2443.htm) thou shouldest keep (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/5083.htm) them (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/846.htm) from (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1537.htm) the evil (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4190.htm)

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 02:34 AM
I made an error

I have already read that in here and it in no way was anything addressed what I had to say,because actually the first 1800 years was pre dominantly post trib and all the great church reformers were pre trib. what I said was if one would read the bible as using only the word resurrection,He would never come to a pre trib resurrection,just try and do it that way


and all the great church reformers were pre trib.

I meant to say post trib

cwb
Jul 20th 2008, 02:52 AM
I am supposing then that all verses describing Jesus' return "like a thief" refer to the rapture. But then I'd still like your opinion of 2 Pe 3:10 which says the Lord will appear like a thief, and then the Heavens will, at the same time, pass away with a horrific noise. This must refer to the final second coming, yet this will be unexpected.

2 Peter 3 says the day of the lord comes as a thief in the night. It does not say it comes and goes as a thief in the night. The word "day" in scripture is not always used as a literal 24 hour period of time.

Yankee Candle
Jul 20th 2008, 03:13 AM
"But then I'd still like your opinion of 2 Pe 3:10 which says the Lord will appear like a thief, and then the Heavens will, at the same time, pass away with a horrific noise."

I already covered this. As like it was in Jesus teaching on Isaiah 61:2 in which he taught the people in the synagogue by reading only half of the prophecy "in the acceptable year of the Lord" he strangely enough, closed the book, sat down and did not read the other half of the verse which said, "and the day of vengeance of our God". He explained to them, "This day is this verse fulfilled in your ears." Why? Because the first part of the verse signified His 1st advent. The second part referred to His second advent...2,000 yrs in the future.

So in the same verse of prophecy we have true words that apply to circumstances 2,000 yrs apart from each other in fulfillment.

The same is true of II Peter 3:10. No matter how you cut it, even if Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation (& He will!) the fact remains that He will not destroy the entire universe and make it all over again until well after the Millenial period. The two events have a time element.

The 'thief in the night' phrase is on purpose by the Holy Spirit to indicate that He will come quietly, by stealth to take what He will (us) and leave quietly. The noise comes later. If you don't understand this then I can't be of any more help to you.

I wish you well.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 03:15 AM
The thief in the night are for unbelievers,not believers,but when he actually does come it is no secretRevelation

Look! He is coming with the clouds!


Every eye will see him,
including those who pierced him;
and all the tribes of the Land will mourn him.

Does it not say ALL tongues will confess,all knees will bow
as the lightning flashes east to west
this does not sound as a secret

it actually a big deal the whole world is put on notice

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 03:49 AM
This is one of the biggest and strongest verses to make the rapture point of the dispensationalist pretribulation rapture view.
1Thessalonians 4: 13-18

13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Well just looking at it as it stands, and putting the pre trib rapture spin on it, sounds real good. BUT there is a big flaw in this rapture view BEFORE the seven year tribulation starts let’s look at it again.

13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

#1 First thing is it’s a MIGHTY LOUD EVENT,NOT SECRET, ALMIGHTY GOD HAS PUT EVERYONE ON NOTICE, not quietly sneaking them out

#2 and the dead in Christ shall rise first: the dead rise first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#3 WHEN DO THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE?

# 4 WE got that answer directly from JESUS himself and Martha

JOHN 6

39] And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
That’s one time he said it.

40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
That’s two times he said it.

44] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day
THAT’S THREE TIMES HE SAID IT.
.
54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day
THAT’S FOUR TIMES HE SAID IT
I THINK YOU GET IT NOW THE DEAD RISE FIRST ,BEFORE THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE

IF THE DEAD RISE FIRST ON THE LAST DAY!!!!! HOW CAN THE LIVING GO TO BE WITH THE LORD BEFORE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION,WHEN THE LIVING ARE NOT TAKEN UNTIL THE DEAD RISE FIRST?

MARTHAS STATEMENT

John.11 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=4817730)



[24] Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Here is another biggie for the dispensationalist pre rapture view
1 cor 15: 51 ,52 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed
WELL THERE IT IS IN THE TWINKLING OF AND EYE . EVERYBODY IS HAPPY AND EVERYBODY HAS BOUGHT INTO IT.
There is another big flaw in this passage
HERE IT IS = at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed
HOW MANY DIFFERENT CLASSES OF SAINTS DO WE HAVE( 1)
BUT THE PRETRIBBERS HAVE MADE (TWO) CLASSES WE NOW HAVE THE TRIBULATION SAINTS
The pretribbers now have a new salvation plan for these trib saints,
Why because the holy spirit is taken away, which to my thought is impossible HE is omnipotent, He is everywhere
Who convicts of sin? = HOLY GHOST
Yet these trib saints are now saved without him?
SO NOW THERE IS A GROUP OF CHRISTIANS GETTING SAVED WITHOUT HIM PLUS TWO ANGELS IN HEAVEN PREACHING THE GOSPEL
THE TWO MEN DOING THE SAME, AND THE 144,000 PREACHING THE GOSPEL WITH OUT THE HOLY GHOST,Because the Christians are stiil here
However, nowhere is it stated that this Coming will take place before the Tribulation, but—just for the record—in unmistakable syntax, it is stated that "the Son of man" will come again "AFTER" the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). To the best of my knowledge, no pretribulationist questions the fact of a posttribulational coming.


1. It contends for a Second Coming before the Second Coming. Regardless of the words which might be used, if the Lord Jesus Christ comes again before the Tribulation period, and then three and a half, or seven years later He comes yet again, the end result is two separate "second" comings.

2. If then there is no explicit Scripture for the pretribulational doctrine, from whence did it come? This is a disturbing question. No one has yet found evidence of the doctrine prior to the nineteenth century. Historical research has provided evidence that its earliest forms broke ground through the influence of Edward Irving, founder of the Catholic Apostolic Church. Later they were pruned by the productive pen of John Nelson Darby.

It predicates a last trumpet before the last trumpet. Again, it makes little difference how much double talk is heard, the fact remains that the "last trumpet" of 1 Corinthians 15:52 can hardly be the "last" if it will be followed by seven more associated with the end of the Great Tribulation

It postulates a resurrection of the saints before the first resurrection. If the resurrection associated with the coming of Christ in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 precedes the first resurrection associated with the coming of Christ in Revelation 20:6, then there must be a "first" resurrection before the first resurrection. Such verbal fancy footwork tends to make mockery of plainness of language.

How insidiously powerful are human theories which can take the clear biblical teaching that there are two future resurrections—one before the kingdom reign of Christ and one after—and categorically declare, "No, there are three, for there is also one before the Tribulation period." Lamentably, it is so easy to ignore problems when a theory becomes popular. In the words of the common adage: "Don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!"
Paul wrote that two interrelated happenings would precede that day: (1) the apostasy; and (2) the revelation of the man of sin. If believers are to be gathered unto the Lord Jesus Christ in that day, then what else can be concluded but that they will be present to witness the two events which precede It



Many in the Church apparently have not. different from this, then you have been ‘deceived.’ This ‘deception’ was going to be about the Lord’s coming, and our gathering together to Him. This ‘deception’ would be anything which teaches contrary to what Jesus and Paul went on to teach as the Truth. Concerning the ‘timing’ of the Lord’s coming and our gathering, we have the Lord Jesus and the Apostle Paul bringing forth Truths in these Scriptures. Read on, and if you believe anything

Jesus taught that He would come ‘immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days.’ Read it for yourself in Matthew 24:29! Read on through verse 31 to see that Jesus is speaking of His coming, and our gathering together to Him, because we are ‘His elect,’ gathered at the sound of a trumpet.

Paul taught that Jesus would not come, and we would not be gathered together to Him, EXCEPT a falling away first occur and the man of sin, the son of perdition, be revealed. Read it for yourself in II Thessalonians 2:1-3!

This coming of the Lord and our gathering together to Him is referred to as the ‘Day of Christ’ by the Apostle Paul in II Thessalonians 2:2. Paul goes on to teach that ‘that day’ shall not come, EXCEPT there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Matthew 24:29-31 and II Thessalonians 2:1-3 are key texts about the ‘timing’ of the coming of the Lord. Both Jesus and Paul warn us not to be deceived about this ‘timing.’ False teachers were going about the Church, teaching that ‘that day’ was ‘at hand.’ Paul considered that false doctrine. READ IT

Things had to happen in this world before ‘that day’ would occur. Paul named two of these things, a falling away and the revealing of the man of sin. Jesus named a whole list of things in Matthew 24. It is clear, however, that ‘that day’ would happen AFTER these things listed had taken place.

It was these ‘signs’ that would tell the Church that the coming of the Lord was near. We cannot know the day and the hour, but we know the
season.
1Thessalonians 4: 15,16
15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
JOHN 6: 39, 40,44,54 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THE LAST DAY IS BEFORE THE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION?

WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THE FIRST RESURRECTION IS BEFORE THE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION
King James Version (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=9)
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
THE LAST DAY. IS THE DAY OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION WHICH UP ABOVE IS NOT UNTIL thousand years were finished, THE FIRST RESURRECTION?


Is there any statement anywhere in Scripture (that day’) is before the seven year tribulation?

Is there any statement anywhere in Scripture which declares that Jesus Christ will return before the Tribulation?


Is there any statement anywhere in Scripture which declares the last trump is before the seven year tribulation ?


The rapture of the church is explicitly said to occur at the last trumpet. This trumpet sounds at the end of the tribulation! (It seems strange that a trumpet sounding before the tribulation would be designated as the "last" trumpet since other trumpets are to follow. If that is the case, what is the "first" trumpet? or any of the other trumpets?)
REGARDIING THE VERSE BELOW IN GREEN CAN ANYONE SHOW IN THE SCRIPTURES WHERE THIS HAPPENS BEFORE THE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION RAPTURE?
It was these ‘signs’ that would tell the Church that the coming of the Lord was near
Paul goes on to teach that ‘that day’ shall not come, EXCEPT there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

My heart's Desire
Jul 20th 2008, 04:15 AM
Curious to wonder how many of us would continue to stand on Salvation by faith alone if it wasn't for Luther posting his thesis on the door of the Church? Think about it? Maybe it took Darby to get us to see the Apostle Paul's rapture of the Church. Also, how many believe that the word of those who came after the Scriptures were written and not in the Bible, are unfalliable? Their intrepretations or teachings?
Speaking of, exactly what was hidden from us when the Word of the bible was hidden by the Church and the common people didn't have their own ?

My heart's Desire
Jul 20th 2008, 04:23 AM
I think if people would would use the word the bible uses Resurrection instead of the word rapture,which is acceptable,they would come away with the right attitude of the meaning,this should not be about a rapture,but about the resurrection,and thats what happens when you use the word rapture ,it takes you away from what Jesus and his disciples were really talking about, and what about what our forefathers taught themselves,I mean after all John discipled poly carp and poly carp discipled ireaneus ,and he wrote the book on hereisies,and ireaneaus states emphatically that the church will go through the the tribulation.
That's just it. The teaching of the catching up of the church was given to Paul by Jesus. I don't believe the Apostles knew about it until the revelation was given to Paul. Even Peter in his Epistle admits that some of Paul's letters are things that are hard to understand. I believe the Apostles knew about the endtime resurrection as the Lord described to them but not the catching of the church as given to Paul. And we can't stick to resurrection either considering that others use the reaping with the sharp sickles in revelation and the one taken and one left as the same thing as resurrection without saying rapture or resurrection.

My heart's Desire
Jul 20th 2008, 04:32 AM
#1 First thing is it’s a MIGHTY LOUD EVENT,NOT SECRET, ALMIGHTY GOD HAS PUT EVERYONE ON NOTICE, not quietly sneaking them out

The Lord says there is a trumpet and a shout but who says that people on earth will hear this trumpet or even ANY of the trumpets being sounded? We take it for granted that we will be able to hear any of the things that take place in heaven before the things they precede happen on earth.

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 04:52 AM
Well if you don't want to believe the bible thats your prerogative
but it says what it says,if you want to deny it thats your business
first the pre tribbers biggest verse is 1st thess,now you say it does not mean what it says? incredible

Here is another problem in the pre trib camp ,but ,I guess you will say the greatest minds were wrong in this too,since every one is wrong the last 1800 years they are wrong and in the dark,but I would say its the last 150 years pre trib are mistaken,but check this out no one agrees with the pre trib on this either
Daniel 9:27 none of them believed it was satan in the temple that is another change in the pre trib camp This is from the following bible commentaries and they all agree that its Christ who makes the covenant in DANIEL 9:27, go check it for your self

Also below you split the church into two bodies I give you good reasons that is not so,there are not two sets of elect





#1John Wesley

#2 MATTHEW HENRY

#3 Jamieson Faussett Brown

#4Geneva Study Bible (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GenevaStudyBible/)
Originally printed in 1560, believers can read the Scripture along with study assistance unashamedly rooted in the theology of Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, and other Reformation leaders.




Church in old testament
ACTS 7:37,38

Did Jesus say, Moses wrote about me also, Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day

ACTS 7:37,38
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Gal 3:29
And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
ACTS 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith
1 COR 10: Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God
1COR 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
GAL 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Col 3 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all
SEEMS LIKE CHURCH WAS IN OLD TESTAMENT according to Stephen in acts 7:37,39

Pre trib rapture problems I’m having
John 6:38 39,40,44,54
38: For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that (every one) which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.!!!!!!
44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.!!!!
54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day!!!!
Matt 13:49: So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just
Matt2413: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matt2820: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations

When did Jesus tell the disciples what was the end when he would return his ? ( church)
Matt24:29.30,31
29 :Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

EPH 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5: One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6: One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

KIND OF SEEMS TO SAY THERE IS ONE OF EVERYTHING
trib camp

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 04:56 AM
Hello, this is another commentary by John Wesley on Danie9:27


9:27
He shall confirm - Christ confirmed the new covenant,


By the testimony of angels, of John Baptist, of the wise men, of the saints then living, of Moses and Elias.
By his preaching.
By signs and wonders.
By his holy life.
By his resurrection and ascension.
By his death and blood shedding.

Shall cause the sacrifice to cease - All the Jewish rites, and Levitical worship. By his death he abrogated, and put an end to this laborious service, for ever. And that determined - That spirit of slumber, which God has determined to pour on the desolate nation, 'till the time draws near, when all Israel shall be saved.

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 04:57 AM
DANIEL 9:27

Hello, In this commentary of Matthew Henry it states its Christ who makes the covenant not the antichrist, If this is true then the whole theory of the dispensationalist 7 year tribulation falls apart and is false. ISNT IT THE PRETRIBBERS WHO SAY ITS ANTICHRIST MAKING THE COVENANT INSTEAD OF JESUS

Genesis 9:9 (New King James Version)

New King James Version (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=50) (NKJ
9 “And as for Me, behold, I establish My covenant with you and with your descendants[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=9&verse=9&version=50&context=verse#fen-NKJV-215a)] after you,


Genesis 9:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=9&verse=12&version=50&context=verse)
And God said: “This is the sign of the covenant which I make between Me and you, and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
THIS BELOW IS THE FULLFILLMENT OF THE COVENANT MADE BY JESUS
We have, in verses 24-27 (http://www.calvin.edu/cgi-bin/bible?daniel+9:24-27) , one of the most remarkable prophecies of Christ, of his coming and his salvation. It shows that the Jews are guilty of most obstinate unbelief, in expecting another Messiah, so long after the time expressly fixed for his coming. The seventy weeks mean a day for a year, or 490 years. About the end of this period a sacrifice would be offered, making full atonement for sin, and bringing in everlasting righteousness for the complete justification of every believer. Then the Jews, in the crucifixion of Jesus, would commit that crime by which the measure of their guilt would be filled up, and troubles would come upon their nation. All blessings bestowed on sinful man come through Christ's atoning sacrifice, who suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God. Here is our way of access to the throne of grace, and of our entrance to heaven. This seals the sum of prophecy, and confirms the covenant with many; and while we rejoice in the blessings of salvation, we should remember what they cost the Redeemer. How can those escape who neglect so great salvation!

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 04:58 AM
Jamieson Faussett Brown
27. he shall confirm the covenant--Christ. The confirmation of the covenant is assigned to Him also elsewhere Isa 42:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?version=KJV&passage=Isa+42:6), "I will give thee for a covenant of the people" (that is, He in whom the covenant between Israel and God is personally expressed); compare Lu 22:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?version=KJV&passage=Lu+22:20), "The new testament in My blood"; Mal 3:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?version=KJV&passage=Mal+3:1), "the angel of the covenant"; Jer 31:31-34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?version=KJV&passage=Jer+31:31-34), describes the Messianic covenant in full. Contrast Da 11:30, 32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?version=KJV&passage=Da+11:30,32), "forsake the covenant," "do wickedly against the covenant." The prophecy as to Messiah's confirming the covenant with many would comfort the faithful in Antiochus' times, who suffered partly from persecuting enemies, partly from false friends (Da 11:33-35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?version=KJV&passage=Da+11:33-35)). Hence arises the similarity of the language here and in Da (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?version=KJV&passage=Da+11:30,32)

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 05:05 AM
very strong statement for post trib

Matt 13:49: So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just

Matt2413: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matt2820: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations

My heart's Desire
Jul 20th 2008, 05:05 AM
Well if you don't want to believe the bible thats your prerogative
but it says what it says,if you want to deny it thats your business
first the pre tribbers biggest verse is 1st thess,now you say it does not mean what it says? incredible

Here is another problem in the pre trib camp ,but ,I guess you will say the greatest minds were wrong in this too,since every one is wrong the last 1800 years they are wrong and in the dark,but I would say its the last 150 years pre trib are mistaken,but check this out no one agrees with the pre trib on this either
Daniel 9:27 none of them believed it was satan in the temple that is another change in the pre trib camp This is from the following bible commentaries and they all agree that its Christ who makes the covenant in DANIEL 9:27, go check it for your self

Also below you split the church into two bodies I give you good reasons that is not so,there are not two sets of elect





#1John Wesley

#2 MATTHEW HENRY

#3 Jamieson Faussett Brown

#4Geneva Study Bible (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GenevaStudyBible/)
Originally printed in 1560, believers can read the Scripture along with study assistance unashamedly rooted in the theology of Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, and other Reformation leaders.




Church in old testament
ACTS 7:37,38

Did Jesus say, Moses wrote about me also, Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day

ACTS 7:37,38
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Gal 3:29
And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
ACTS 15:9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith
1 COR 10: Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God
1COR 12:12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
GAL 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Col 3 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all
SEEMS LIKE CHURCH WAS IN OLD TESTAMENT according to Stephen in acts 7:37,39

Pre trib rapture problems I’m having
John 6:38 39,40,44,54
38: For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that (every one) which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.!!!!!!
44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.!!!!
54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day!!!!
Matt 13:49: So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just
Matt2413: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matt2820: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations

When did Jesus tell the disciples what was the end when he would return his ? ( church)
Matt24:29.30,31
29 :Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

EPH 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5: One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6: One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

KIND OF SEEMS TO SAY THERE IS ONE OF EVERYTHING
trib camp
Then why did the Lord Jesus tell His disciples not to go to the Gentiles with His messages that He gave in all the Gospels but only to the house of Israel? It was only after His death, burial and resurrection that He told them to go into all the ends of the earth? And why did He come to Paul and tell him to go to the Gentiles? Why didn't He tell the Apostles to go to the Gentiles specifically as He did to Paul. If He did all that then why is it so hard to believe that the Lord Jesus gave to Paul specifically the message of a separate endtime event as the Pre-trib rapture separate from a end of the trib resurrection of all that are DEAD? Do all of the Church die so that they can be resurrected. I do not see a catching up of living saints at the end of the tribulation. So, if pretrib rapture of the church is out of the question according to the church fathers who is right between Preterists (though I shouldn't bring that position up as it is not allowed on this board) and Post tribbers?

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 05:16 AM
one last thing is when Jesus was leaving this earth they(DISCIPLES) were watching it happen and the angels said you you will SEE HIM come back the same way he left,will you deny that to or try to change it

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 05:19 AM
Then why did the Lord Jesus tell His disciples not to go to the Gentiles with His messages that He gave in all the Gospels but only to the house of Israel? It was only after His death, burial and resurrection that He told them to go into all the ends of the earth? And why did He come to Paul and tell him to go to the Gentiles? Why didn't He tell the Apostles to go to the Gentiles specifically as He did to Paul. If He did all that then why is it so hard to believe that the Lord Jesus gave to Paul specifically the message of a separate endtime event as the Pre-trib rapture separate from a end of the trib resurrection of all that are DEAD? Do all of the Church die so that they can be resurrected. I do not see a catching up of living saints at the end of the tribulation. So, if pretrib rapture of the church is out of the question according to the church fathers who is right between Preterists (though I shouldn't bring that position up as it is not allowed on this board) and Post tribbers?

When you check it out the last 1800 years was all post trib


Does it not say one is in the field one is taken and one is left

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 05:22 AM
it was always the wicked were taken and gods children were left
Sodom and gomarrah

Flood

Passover

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 05:28 AM
sorry correction,two are in the field one is taken ans one is left

My heart's Desire
Jul 20th 2008, 06:01 AM
Well if you don't want to believe the bible thats your prerogative
but it says what it says,if you want to deny it thats your business
first the pre tribbers biggest verse is 1st thess,now you say it does not mean what it says? incredible

Actually, I study and believe the bible very intensively and I know it says what it says and I'll stay Pre-trib. Regardless, the greatest truth is to personally know Jesus Christ as Savior and therefore to not be subject any longer to the Wrath of God for unbelief and that indeed the Lord is returning soon! Even so, come Lord Jesus!

My heart's Desire
Jul 20th 2008, 06:02 AM
When you check it out the last 1800 years was all post trib


Does it not say one is in the field one is taken and one is left
How about the Shepherd of Hermes?

My heart's Desire
Jul 20th 2008, 06:07 AM
one last thing is when Jesus was leaving this earth they(DISCIPLES) were watching it happen and the angels said you you will SEE HIM come back the same way he left,will you deny that to or try to change it
So believers bodies that are in the grave are going to be standing there watching Him return from the clouds?

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 06:36 AM
I don't have all the answers but its easy to find many many post trib verses out of the bible and there are no explicit verses in the bible period like that for pre trib,I am not trying to convert anyone,but just giving my perspective,and asking you just to look at it thats all

http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/

Firstfruits
Jul 20th 2008, 10:49 AM
Actually, I study and believe the bible very intensively and I know it says what it says and I'll stay Pre-trib. Regardless, the greatest truth is to personally know Jesus Christ as Savior and therefore to not be subject any longer to the Wrath of God for unbelief and that indeed the Lord is returning soon! Even so, come Lord Jesus!

I suppose there are scriptures used for the pre-trib doctrine here, but can you please let me have them if you do not mind?

Thanks

Firstfruits

Yankee Candle
Jul 20th 2008, 12:25 PM
The thief in the night are for unbelievers,not believers,but when he actually does come it is no secretRevelation

Look! He is coming with the clouds!


Every eye will see him,
including those who pierced him;
and all the tribes of the Land will mourn him.

Does it not say ALL tongues will confess,all knees will bow
as the lightning flashes east to west
this does not sound as a secret

it actually a big deal the whole world is put on notice

No, the initial stage of His coming is not for unbelievers it is for US!

Connect I Corinthians 15:52 with Luke 21:35-36

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This pertains to believers, not unbelievers. Now compare it to Luke 21:

"For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

But don't stop there, connect these truths with I Thess. 5

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

The visible return of Christ at the end of things is the time when Christ will be seen by all mankind, but no one will see the 'thief' take out His sheep at the beginning of things.
The wicked will be taken to hell at the end of the tribulation. That is the only 'rapture' that they will experience. But they are going down not up.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg


Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

David Taylor
Jul 20th 2008, 01:52 PM
How about the Shepherd of Hermes?
Hermas Was post-trib.

RevLogos
Jul 20th 2008, 03:39 PM
And why did He come to Paul and tell him to go to the Gentiles? Why didn't He tell the Apostles to go to the Gentiles specifically as He did to Paul. If He did all that then why is it so hard to believe that the Lord Jesus gave to Paul specifically the message of a separate endtime event as the Pre-trib rapture separate from a end of the trib resurrection of all that are DEAD? Do all of the Church die so that they can be resurrected. I do not see a catching up of living saints at the end of the tribulation. So, if pretrib rapture of the church is out of the question according to the church fathers who is right between Preterists (though I shouldn't bring that position up as it is not allowed on this board) and Post tribbers?

Peter first received the message to spread the word to the gentiles, not Paul. All of Acts 10 is dedicated to this message to Peter. In Acts 11 Peter must defend his newly commissioned work with the gentiles to the church in Jerusalem. Peter goes through a point by point argument.

These events happen shortly after Paul's conversion, before his name changed from Saul.

There was nothing special about Paul with respect to the gentiles. He did fall into the role of working with gentiles more than Peter, but not because of a special commandment from God.

So yes, it is very hard to believe Paul had some secret truth the others didn't.

If Paul is on some special secret mission from God to hold the truth about a secret rapture, I would sure like to see the scripture. All I see is speculation.

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 05:19 PM
Where is the last trumpet before the rapture,what scripture?
you say don't stop there,look at it,how can the dead be raised incorruptible before the the first resurrection
Revelation 20:6

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on
such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of
God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first resurrection is not until the thousand years are ended


John 11:24
Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."



John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone that is living that believes in me will not die into the age [forever]. Do you believe this?




Nothing about a rapture,instead Jesus states I am the resurrection,did Jesus correct Martha and say no it will be before the last day


Where is the last day in scripture before a rapture


your quote


No one will see the thief take out his sheep.



That is against what the bible says ,its a coronation when he comes back.Thats why all knees will bow and all tongues will confess,when Christ was ascending into heaven,the two angels said,why worry,He will come back the same way you are seeing him go,on a cloud,and that is exactly how he returns on a cloud and every eye will see him .



















No, the initial stage of His coming is not for unbelievers it is for US!

Connect I Corinthians 15:52 with Luke 21:35-36

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The pertains to believers, not unbelievers. Now compare it to Luke 21:

"For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

But don't stop there, connect these truths with I Thess. 5

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

The visible return of Christ at the end of things is the time when Christ will be seen by all mankind, but no one will see the 'thief' take out His sheep at the beginning of things.
The wicked will be taken to hell at the end of the tribulation. That is the only 'rapture' that they will experience. But it is gong down not up.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 06:46 PM
Yankee candle quote

But don't stop there, connect these truths with I Thess. 5

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

you got it

then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 07:05 PM
"See, I am coming like a thief. How blessed is the person who remains alert and keeps his clothes on! He won't have to go naked and let others see his shame."

A warning to be ready,we know he is coming and we are ready for it,how blessed is the person who remains alert, when he comes we will be cheering,others will mourn as sudden destruction comes upon them



"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."


look at it WE KNOW = For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

He only comes as a thief to the unsuspecting,un believers

Yankee Candle
Jul 20th 2008, 08:00 PM
"See, I am coming like a thief. How blessed is the person who remains alert and keeps his clothes on! He won't have to go naked and let others see his shame."

A warning to be ready,we know he is coming and we are ready for it,how blessed is the person who remains alert, when he comes we will be cheering,others will mourn as sudden destruction comes upon them



"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."


look at it WE KNOW = For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

He only comes as a thief to the unsuspecting,un believers

No, that is not correct. He will come at a time 'When YE think not'.

"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." Luke 12:40.

How could you possibly miss this?

In effect, the Lord was saying, "Have your bags packed for you know I am coming, but I am coming at a time when you will not expect me."

Dear friend, you are robbing yourself of the joy of looking forward to and being comforted by the fact that believers in this age will escape the coming terrible time of trouble that will come on the world. How sad! How tragic! The Holy Spirit wants you to have that comfort but you won't take it!



http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-26018-0125_med.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 08:44 PM
your quote
"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." Luke 12:40.


Of course no one knows the day or hour,but they do know the season,go read about the fig tree,He gives us all these signs,so that we Know it is near, like I said no where in the bible,has God ever taken his children out when he poured out his wrath,he did though take the wicked out
#1 flood ,who was taken who was left?
#2 Sodom and Gomorrah, who was taken and who was left?
#3 passover,who was taken and who was left


1 Peter 4:16 (http://bible.cc/1_peter/4-16.htm) but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.

look at Paul , look at all the disciples who were murdered,are you better than they,except John died of old age




THEY ARE DIEING EVERYDAY NOW FOR THE LORD,THEY ARE NOT LOOKING FOR AN EASY WAY OUT


John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

How about all the martyrs , who are beheaded for God,What an HONOR

Did the disciples say they counted it worthy to suffer for the name of Christ

Dear friend, you are robbing yourself of the joy of looking forward to and being comforted by the fact that believers in this age will escape the coming terrible time of trouble that will come on the world. How sad! How tragic! The Holy Spirit wants you to have that comfort but you won't take it!

Are you one of those Christians who are not knowing the joy of suffering for the lord and are scared and wanting a way out

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 09:00 PM
what about these
Matt 13:49: So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just

where is the rapture above in that verse,the just are here at the end of the world


Matt2413: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matt2820: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations

My heart's Desire
Jul 20th 2008, 10:02 PM
Peter first received the message to spread the word to the gentiles, not Paul. All of Acts 10 is dedicated to this message to Peter. In Acts 11 Peter must defend his newly commissioned work with the gentiles to the church in Jerusalem. Peter goes through a point by point argument.

These events happen shortly after Paul's conversion, before his name changed from Saul.

There was nothing special about Paul with respect to the gentiles. He did fall into the role of working with gentiles more than Peter, but not because of a special commandment from God.

So yes, it is very hard to believe Paul had some secret truth the others didn't.

If Paul is on some special secret mission from God to hold the truth about a secret rapture, I would sure like to see the scripture. All I see is speculation.Actually, when Paul was saved the Lord Jesus did send him to the Gentiles and it was fortunate that when some teachers went to the converted that Paul taught, and they tried to tell them that in addition to faith in Christ they would have to be baptized and and follow the Law, it was then that Peter remembered that God even saved Gentiles by faith as he therefore stood up for Paul's teaching. But....Paul was specifically sent to the Gentiles.
Guess I could give the verse:
Acts 9:15 The Lord speaking to Ananias about Paul.
But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel:
Galations 2:8-9
For He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised (Jews) effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles, (Paul)
9. and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
NASB

Yankee Candle
Jul 20th 2008, 10:10 PM
what about these
Matt 13:49: So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just

where is the rapture above in that verse,the just are here at the end of the world


Matt2413: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matt2820: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations

The scriptures you are quoting are true, but they apply to those who are converted to Christ DURING the tribulation, not to the saints in heaven with Jesus.

RevLogos
Jul 20th 2008, 11:30 PM
Guess I could give the verse:
Acts 9:15 The Lord speaking to Ananias about Paul.
But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel:
Galations 2:8-9
For He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised (Jews) effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles, (Paul)
9. and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
NASB

Nevertheless it was Peter who first received a special revelation to preach the Gospel to the gentiles. An entire chapter and a half of Acts is devoted to it.

In Act 9:13-14, just after Saul is converted and arrives in Damascus, we see Ananias is afraid to go to Saul because Saul has persecuted those who follow The Way, and had the authority to imprison him. God gives Ananias in 9:15 the message so that he would not be afraid. Read and boldface the rest of the verse. "... and kings and the sons of Israel" which means everybody, Jews and gentiles. No special commission here.

Paul later says in Gal 2:7-8 that it was Peter's effectiveness preaching to the Jews that empowered him to give the message to the gentiles. This section of Galatians is discussing a conflict that developed between Peter and Paul regarding how the Jews and gentiles are to be preached to. Paul won that one. (This is the only time I can think of where the apostles disagreed with each other).

Bottom line is that when looking for some special revelation Paul may have had that the other's didn't, I just don't find it. It was Paul who said in Romans "to the Jew first." Peter did have a unique revelation in Acts 10, not Paul.

Is there anything else that suggests Paul had special knowledge? And why would he not write about it? If Paul were given some sort of special revelation as significant as a secret rapture, wouldn't we expect to see a lot of attention paid to it (Just as Peter's special revelation to bring the message to the gentiles took an entire chapter)? There must be some motive for God to keep it hidden.

RevLogos
Jul 20th 2008, 11:32 PM
The scriptures you are quoting are true, but they apply to those who are converted to Christ DURING the tribulation, not to the saints in heaven with Jesus.

The Gospels use a wedding analogy several times, as does John in Rev. Jesus is the groom, the Church is the bride. You've used this analogy yourself.

When one gets married, how many weddings are there?

One, or two?

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 11:50 PM
The scriptures you are quoting are true, but they apply to those who are converted to Christ DURING the tribulation, not to the saints in heaven with Jesus.

There is only one body of Christ,and you have not really showed,that a rapture took place either,so you got some being converted without the Holy Spirit,its only by the holy spirit you can be convicted ,where is he now?

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 11:53 PM
I have special permission to use this

I will post it in two parts

http://post-triborpre-trib.blogspot.com/

Endtimes Conference Proves Post-Trib Rapture (http://post-triborpre-trib.blogspot.com/2007/06/end-times-bible-prophcey-conference.html)

Thursday, July 10, 2008, 12:17:11 PM | noreply@blogger.com (Roger Armstrong)file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/LARRYW%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.png (http://post-triborpre-trib.blogspot.com/2007/06/end-times-bible-prophcey-conference.html)
.
The Bible verses used to prove the "Pre-Trib" Rapture,
.
instead_prove the_ "Post-Trib" Rapture, _at
.
this conference held at "Little Country Church,"_in Redding,
California, and attended by 800 men. The rapture was presented
to take place before the tribulation, and not one word about the
"Second Coming of Christ" that the Bible clearly states happens at
the end of the tribulation. How can they make this one event into
two, seperated by seven years? And without one single verse to
support this! Neither scripture nor common sense supports such
a view. This is one event, on the Last Day!
.
.
The three senior pastors that spoke at this "Endtime Conference"
used nine scriptures to prove the "Pre-Trib" Rapture. However,
out of the nine they used, seven were taken out of context, and
the other two were based on assumptions._ Below are the nine
scriptures they used to "try" to prove the "Pre-Trib" Rapture.
.
.
#1._I Cor. 15:51,52

51"Behold I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we
shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead
shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
.
.
Read the last two lines in the above verse slowly, think about the
"order" (sequence) God inspired Paul to list these three events:
#1 The Last Trump,#2 The Resurrection,#3 The Rapture,
(we shall be changed). Paul would have listed the Rapture first,
instead of third, if this was to be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Also
Jesus says four times in John 6:39, 40, 44, 54, the resurrection
is on the Last day. So, if the Resurrection is on the Last Day,
as stated by Jesus, and in I Cor 15:52, Paul lists the Rapture
after the Resurrection. Paul has told us the "sequence" of
these (3) events and Jesus told us "when", (on the Last Day).
Is this such a difficult concept to comprehend??.... Clearly, these
two verses teach a.....Post-Tribulation Rapture..... at the
Second Coming of Christ. How can the Last Trumpet sound,
the Resurrection, and then the rapture happen, seven years
before the "Last Day" ? ?
.
.
#2._I Thes. 4:16

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first."
.
.
Again the word "trump" is used, but the Thessalonians were
unclear as to "when" this would happen. Paul apparently heard
that they were troubled about this, so he then wrote a _second
letter _to them to clear this up, and this reads as follows:
.
II Thes 2:1-4, (v-1) "Now we beseech you, brothern, by the
coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering
together (Rapture) unto him,___ (v-2) That ye be not soon
shaken in mind,_or be troubled,_neither by spirit,_or by word,
nor by letter from us, _as that the _day of Christ_ is at hand.
(v-3) Let no man_deceive you_by any means: for_thatday
shall not come_except there come a falling away first, and
that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"(false Christ).
.
In this, second letter, Paul, this time_ makes it _very clearthat the false Christ_ comes first,__and (v-3) not to let anyone
deceive you. Then, refering back to the first letter he wrote, then
(after false Christ) the Lord descends, with a shout, with the voice
of the arch angel, with the"trump" of God: and the dead in Christ
shall rise first. This is the second coming of Christ, after the
tribulation_ So, with this_second letter_ Paul is making it
clear that this "trump"_ is not before the tribulation _its
after!! Its a post-tribulation rapture, on the Last Day!!
.
#3._Rev. 3:10
"Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I also will
keepthee from the hour of temptation, that shall come upon
all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth."
.
Notice that Jesus says, "....I will keep thee from...." , He does
not say, "...take thee out of..." . So, for a better understanding
of Rev. 3:10, Lets prove the Bible, with the Bible, and not assume
anything._ Lets let Jesus clearify this verse, which He does in
John 17:15, "I pray not thatthou take them out of the world,but that thou should keep them from the evil."


Jesus clearly says_"not" to take them out_in John 17:15.
So, how can the_I will Keep thee from_of Rev. 3:10, mean_
I will take thee out of_? As pre-trib teachers would have you
believe. Jesus does "not" contradict Himself.!!_ For the
Greek meaning of "Keep thee from". See side column Note #2->
.
Gods wrath does not fall on us,"only those who had the mark
of the beast"(Rev 16:2). And those who "do not havethe seal
of God"(Rev 9:4). Like the "144 thousand" of Rev. 7:3, we havethe seal of God._See Eph 1:13,"...after you believed, you were
sealed...."_And Eph 4:30, "....you are sealed unto the day of
redemption." There are several verses that clearly state, after we
accept Christ, we are sealed, (protected from Gods wrath).
.
.#4._Matt. 24:27
"For as the lighting cometh out of the east, and shineth even
unto the west; so shall also the coming of the son of man be."
Now skip to __verse 29,__ tells you __"when" this will be:"Immediately__ after the tribulation__ of those days...."
Now v-30,_ "And then shall appear the sign of the son of man
(Jesus)..."__ Now v-31, "....with the great sound of a trumpet,and they shall gather together (rapture) his elect...." Again the
same trumpet as in other verses, now go back to v-26, Jesus
tells them not to believe people that tell you that He (Jesus) is
in a secret place (like a secret pre-trib rapture)._Matthew 24:27
is another verse that was clearly taken out of context, Its a post
tribulation rapture, at the second coming of Christ.
.
#5._Matt. 25:1-13
This is the parable of the "ten virgins."_ Here Jesus does not
talk about the "time" of His return, because He had just told
them a few minutes before about the time, (see the paragraph
before this one_verse 29_ definitely after the tribulation.)
The Wedding Feast can only take place after the tribulation,
because the Resurrection dosn't happen until the Last day.
Jesus said four times that the Resurrection is on the Last
Day (John 6:39, 40, 44, 54). _ Then the bridegroom (church
goes into the wedding feast after the second coming of Christ,
and guess who else is at the wedding feast?_1 The Old Test-
ament saints,__2 The tribulation saints,__3 The prophets,
4 The 144,000 new Christian Jews. There would have to be twowedding feasts_two resurrections, and_two last days_ for the
"pre-trib" rapture to work. And_one verse_would also be nice!!
.
#6._Mark 13, In this entire chapter Jesus is talking about the
events that happen durning the tribulation, and that they were
not to look for Him until_after_ certain events happen. Then in
verses 24-27, (paraphased) _"...after the tribulation of those
days, then they shall see Him..." and Jesus just told them that
He's coming back after the tribulation, making this a post-trib-
ulation rapture at the Second Coming of Christ.
.
#7._Luke 21, Basically this chapter is the same as the above
chapter, where Jesus returns_after_ the tribulation, at the
second coming of Christ, except in v-36, He says, "...pray that
you be accounted worthy to escape all these things..."And we will,
because we have the seal of God, (Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30, II Cor
1:22, John 6:27). _We are protected (sealed) from Gods wrath,
like the 144 thousand, of Rev. 7:4.

cephas
Jul 20th 2008, 11:54 PM
8._II Pet. 3:10,"...The Day of the Lord will come as a
thief in the night." Now lets let the Bible prove the Bible and
go to I Thes.5:2, where the exact same words are used, in v-2,
"...the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." Then
in v-4, (paraphased) "but we are not in darkness that this day
should overtake us as a thief." Why? v-5, "...because we are
children of the light." And we know Jesus says this right after
the 6th vial is poured out, which happens at the very end of the
tribulation, when Jesus says "Behold I come as a thief" and
this begins the Last Day, (Rev.16:12-15).
.
#9._Rev. 22, "...behold I come quickly; and my reward is
with me."So when does He give out rewards? See Rev. 11:15, 18,
"And the 7th angel sounded..[its time]..that thou give rewards..unto the saints..."_Its after the 7th trump!!__At the end!!
Rewards are given out after the post-resurrection rapture,after the Second Coming of Christ.


[A]

Now, all of the (9) verse references listed above, was allthat was presented to prove the "Pre-Trib" rapture
by the three pastors, at this conference. You can see
that they were all taken out of context, or based
on assumptions. God was very angry with the
ten spies, who made Israel fear the Giants that were in
the land that God promised them, and_they were afraid_
to go in_(Num chp 13 & 14)_ We are doing the same thing
today, by fearing the "Giant" (anti-Christ) _we add "pre-trib"to Gods word, without a single verse to prove it, this is very
dangerous, (see Rev. 22:18). It is not my intent to belittle these
three pastors, and I am sure they are sincere Christians, but if
they can't come up with even one single verse that specificy
places this event before the tribulation, who can?_can you?


Its really very simple, if its not in Gods word, its not going to
happen. Again, I want to repeat that these nine scriptures were
all that was used to prove the "pre-trib" rapture that day, I was
there! The senior pastor of this church has read this article, (the
nine verses) and made a comment to me via Email, and he did not
question that these verses were all that was used to support this.


[C]
Note: The "pre-trib" view is a new doctrine, you will not find
pre-trib writings or documents in any church history until about
the year 1830. Edward Irving, (Catholic Apostolic Church) and
soon after, John Darby, (Plymouth Brethren) both of England,
were teaching the pre-tribulation rapture. _However, the most
important reason for the acceptanceof this "pre-trib" rapture
view in the United States was the Scofield Reference Bible. In the
footnotes he split the second coming of Christ into two events.

[D]
Some may ask:_"what difference does it make if Christ returns
before the tribulation, or after"?_ There are sincere Christians on
both sides. However, the Bible says in I Thes.5:21, to "prove all
things."_And in II Tim.4:4,"And they shall turn away their ears
from the truth, and shall be turned into fables." (fiction) Like
the "Left Behind" book and movie, cars & planes crashing, etc.
Millions killed before the tribulation even starts, when all these
people still have/had a chance to be saved during this time. The
truth was Left Behind, in the making of this movie, yet it sells
well in the religious marketplaces. The "Pre-Trib" doctrine has
become amusement for the masses, a multi billion dollar business

[E]
If such a major event as the "pre-trib" Rapture is true, why
isn't it found in Old Testament prophecy?__or in Jesus's
own teachings?__ or His disciples?__or any of the New
Testament writers?__Jesus said in Mark 13:23,__ "I have
foretold you all things."__He would have told us!!
[F]
Others may say: "That the tribulation is only for the Jews,"(the 144 thousand) and that they are the people that God uses in
this time to bring people to Christ. This may be true, in part, but
look at the first few verses in Rev. chapter 7, where God puts
a seal on this small group. And because of this seal, they are
protected!! The woman (Israel) is protected in the last 3 1/2
years of the tribulation (Rev. 12:13,14). This, in turn, makes the
sepent(Satan) angry, so he goes after us in v-17, those who have
"the testimony of Jesus Christ." _Again go back to Rev. 7:9,"After this (the sealing of the 144000) I beheld, and look, a great
multitude...of all nations...". Now skip to v-13, who are these
people, and where did they come from?_Then v-14, "these
are they that came out of great tribulation...". And God just
stated in Rev 12:13,14, that the woman(Israel, the 144,000 Jews)
are protected. So, who do you think this great multitude is that
has the testimony of Jesus Christ, if its not us??

[G]
So, there are untold millions, along with the Jews that are in
this period of time. To say that this time is only for the Jews is
another assumption and not valid. They base this on Isaiah
45:4, where Israel is called Gods "elect", so then in Mat. 24:31,
when Jesus sends his angels to gather His "elect" after the
tribulation, that this event (the second coming of Christ) is only
for the Jews who have to go through the tribulation._ After we
(non Jews) accept the Lord Jesus Christ as our saviour, we then
become Gods "elect."__ I will back up this statement with
Pauls letters to non Jews, the Galatians and the Colossians :

[H]
1. Gal 3:28,29(paraphrased)"There is neither Jew or Greek,you
are all one in Christ...you also are Abrahams seed..."(elect)
.2. Col 3:11,12,"....there is neither Greek or Jew....but Christis all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the _Elect_ of God...."
.3. I Peter 1:1,2, Peter writes a letter to different nationalitys
and calls them the _elect_ of God, because they have been
"washed in the blood of the Lamb."_ Like we have been.
So, Israel_"and"_the church_"are"_Gods elect!!
Jesus has one bride! He created the miracle of uniting Jew and
Gentile alike into one bride. Let's just "reason together", does it
make any sense that Jesus would rapture out a partial bride?
What parts would He take first? And then...what? Pick up the
other parts later - with whatever the results the 144K Jews are
able to accomplish during the 7 years? Why would Jesus remove
only some?
And if He was going to do this, don't you think He would would
have told us? At least one verse stating that He was going to take
some out first? Jesus said in Mark 13:23, "I have foretold you
[B]all things." He would have told us!! And do you suppose Jesus
would have the wedding feast with His "raptured" church (bride),
without the tribulation saints, the Old Testament saints, the
prophets or the 144K?? Let's think about this, are we really
this special? Compared to them?


I am going to add a few scriptures, (that were not mentioned at
this conference) that are also used to support the pre-tribulation
rapture, so that you will have a complete list of all the verses,
assumptions and analogys this "new" doctrine was based on:

[i]
1. I Thes. 5:2,_"...the Day of the Lord so cometh as a "thief
in the night." But is not valid to be used for "pre-trib" because
this happens after the "6th vial"is poured out at the end of
the tribulation, after Rev. 16:12, then Jesus says in verse 15,
"Behold, I come as a thief."_Its after the tribulation, at the
Second Coming of Christ.

[J]
2. Matt. 24:40, is another one,_"...One shall be taken, and
the other left."_Jesus made this statement a few verses after
he stated in verse 29,_ "Immediately after the tribulationof those days..." This happens at the post tribulation rapture!

[K]
3. Mark 13:32, is also used,_"But of that day and that hour
knoweth no man..." __Jesus told them this a few verses after
telling them in v- 24, "But in those days after that tribulation,
the sun shall be darkned, and the moon shall not give her light..."
Then goes on to say in verses 28-31, that we will know that this
Day is close, (because of tribulation events). Now, when we find
ourselfs in this period, we also will not know the day or hour,except that it is close.__So, this verse could be used to support
a "Pre" or a "Post" Tribulation Rapture_It proves nothing!

[L]
4. The 'Noah' analogy__Many analogies are used by the Pre-
Trib Rapture teachers, for lack of scripture proof (like, not one).
However, Noah is their main one, so I will deal only with this one.
Everyone is aware of the fact that Noah warned the people that
a flood is coming and to repent, but _they refused to listen.
The Pre-Trib Rapture teachers say "that’s like the Rapture", so
as Noah was saved out of the flood, we are going to be "Raptured"
out of the Tribulation. Its an analogy!!_ It Proves nothing.
.
The Post-Trib 'Noah' analogy It proves nothing, but its fun.
We, the Post-Tribulation Rapture teachers, are warning youthat a flood is coming (the Tribulation) , but you refuse
to listen, just like in the days of Noah. ButInstead of a flood of
water, it is a flood of Satanic deception that started with a small
wave in 1830 with the new pre-trib rapture doctrine. Now this
wave of deception has covered the entire western world and has
blinded us to the huge wave that may soon be upon us. Because
millions refuse to hear the truth, many will fall in this dark time,
and be deceived into taking the "Mark of the Beast" and be
forever lost. However, post-trib rapture teachers don't have to
use analogies to prove their view. But even with two dozen solid
scriptures, the people still _refuse to listen!!

[M]
Some people ask me, "why is it that the vast majority of
Christians believe in the "pre-trib"?_When Jesus came to the
earth the first time, the vast majority of the religious people
(the church) of that time, rejected him, even after many Old
Testament prophecies foretold of this event. But they did not want
a suffering Messiah, they wanted a conquering king. In this
case the vast majority was wrong!! Now, today, we want the
Messiah to take us out before a certain event, not after!! But,
guess what, we don't get to choose. He only comes to the earth
two times (Heb 9:28). Once as a suffering Messiah, and then as a
conquering KING at the Second Coming of Christ.

[N]
We soon may be entering the last seven years of this age, the 70th
week of Daniel. We will not be 'up in the bleachers' (as our
endtime preachers would have us believe) and we need not fear,
God is with us. Jesus said "...I will build my church; and
the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt 16:18)

[O]
No matter what view we hold, we still need to accept each other as
Christians, those of us that hold to the post-tribulation rapture
view, should not be thought of as troublemakers, we are only
concerned that millions may fall during this time, a time when we
(the church) can be used by God."..The people that do know their
God shall be strong, and do exploits. And they that understand
among the people shall instruct many..." (Daniel 11:32,33)
.
And, then we can be overcomers as in Rev. 7:9, _"...a great
mulitude, which no man could number, of all nations.."
And v-13, ( paraphrased)_ "....who are these people and
where did they come from?" _ Then v-14, "...these are
they which came out of great tribulation, and washed
their robes, and made them white in theBlood of the Lamb."
.
Print this article_think about it!_The nine scriptures used
by these three pastors was all they had to prove the "pre-trib"
rapture in a_ six hour_ conference.?? Something is wrong!!

Clifton
Jul 20th 2008, 11:56 PM
The Gospels use a wedding analogy several times, as does John in Rev. Jesus is the groom, the Church is the bride. You've used this analogy yourself.

When one gets married, how many weddings are there?

One, or two?

For how many people?

In the biblical wedding service that God gave (Romans 9:4; Hebrews 9:1; 1 Chronicles 28:11-12), marriage consisted of two stages. The first stage is betrothal, called erusin in Hebrew. You enter this first stage of marriage as soon as a betrothal contract (a s*h*i*t*r*e erusin) is made between the two parties. The written contract is called a ketubah. During betrothal, you are legally married, but do not physically dwell with your mate. Betrothal is so legally binding that you cannot get out of it without a divorce, called a get in Hebrew.

That's enough for now - I'm gonna snack on something. :P

Blessings.

cephas
Jul 21st 2008, 12:01 AM
The Gospels use a wedding analogy several times, as does John in Rev. Jesus is the groom, the Church is the bride. You've used this analogy yourself.

When one gets married, how many weddings are there?

One, or two?

#5._Matt. 25:1-13
This is the parable of the "ten virgins."_ Here Jesus does not
talk about the "time" of His return, because He had just told
them a few minutes before about the time, (see the paragraph
before this one_verse 29_ definitely after the tribulation.)
The Wedding Feast can only take place after the tribulation,
because the Resurrection dosn't happen until the Last day.
Jesus said four times that the Resurrection is on the Last
Day (John 6:39, 40, 44, 54). _ Then the bridegroom (church
goes into the wedding feast after the second coming of Christ,
and guess who else is at the wedding feast?_1 The Old Test-
ament saints,__2 The tribulation saints,__3 The prophets,
4 The 144,000 new Christian Jews. There would have to be twowedding feasts_two resurrections, and_two last days_ for the
"pre-trib" rapture to work. And_one verse_would also be nice!!

RevLogos
Jul 21st 2008, 12:14 AM
For how many people?

In the biblical wedding service that God gave (Romans 9:4; Hebrews 9:1; 1 Chronicles 28:11-12), marriage consisted of two stages. The first stage is betrothal, called erusin in Hebrew. You enter this first stage of marriage as soon as a betrothal contract (a s*h*i*t*r*e erusin) is made between the two parties. The written contract is called a ketubah. During betrothal, you are legally married, but do not physically dwell with your mate. Betrothal is so legally binding that you cannot get out of it without a divorce, called a get in Hebrew.

That's enough for now - I'm gonna snack on something. :P

Blessings.

In the Parable of the 10 Virgins, Jesus describes well a traditional celebration at that time.

As I understand it, it was a custom among the Jews that the bridegroom would come attended with his friends, late in the night, to the house of the bride. The bride, attended with her bridesmaids, would be expecting him. Upon notice given of the bridegrooms' approach, they were to go out with lamps in their hands, to light him into the house with ceremony and formality, beginning the nuptial celebrations.

So in this parable does this joining of the bride and groom represent the rapture or the Second Coming?

cephas
Jul 21st 2008, 12:19 AM
In the Parable of the 10 Virgins, Jesus describes well a traditional celebration at that time.

As I understand it, it was a custom among the Jews that the bridegroom would come attended with his friends, late in the night, to the house of the bride. The bride, attended with her bridesmaids, would be expecting him. Upon notice given of the bridegrooms' approach, they were to go out with lamps in their hands, to light him into the house with ceremony and formality, beginning the nuptial celebrations.

So in this parable does this joining of the bride and groom represent the rapture or the Second Coming?

You have not showed yet any explicit,verses that there really is a rapture

Clifton
Jul 21st 2008, 12:51 AM
In the Parable of the 10 Virgins, Jesus describes well a traditional celebration at that time.

As I understand it, it was a custom among the Jews that the bridegroom would come attended with his friends, late in the night, to the house of the bride. The bride, attended with her bridesmaids, would be expecting him. Upon notice given of the bridegrooms' approach, they were to go out with lamps in their hands, to light him into the house with ceremony and formality, beginning the nuptial celebrations.

Oh, that is pretty good, but it is very condensed, but then again, so was my response - the details are indeed a bit lengthy.

How many did you say are getting married? ;)


So in this parable does this joining of the bride and groom represent the rapture or the Second Coming?Both...


There will be the Natzal (Rapture). Some believe this will take two days, and the dead and the living will all be risen by the 3rd day. Others believe differently.
The Birthpang’s of the Messiah “Week” (Chevlai shel Mashiach; Tribulation; etc.); This begins 10 days after the Natzal begins.
Yeshua comes all the way down to Earth (for the Natzal, He only descends but so far - "in the air".)
A sorting / dividing “Judgment” (will last 5 days);

Then


Athid Lavo (Messianic Era/Millennium/Etc.);
Last Resurrection and Great Judgment;
Olam Haba: New Heaven/Earth/Jerusalem (Eternal Abode).

"Athid Lavo" will be the 4th Primary Era and the Last before the return to "Olam Haba". The Primary Era now, the third, is "Yemot Mashiach" (The days of the Messiah (We grow in knowledge of God)).

Blessings.

RevLogos
Jul 21st 2008, 12:59 AM
Oh, that is pretty good, but it is very condensed, but then again, so was my response - the details are indeed a bit lengthy.

How many did you say are getting married? ;)

Both...


There will be the Natzal (Rapture). Some believe this will take two days, and the dead and the living will all be risen by the 3rd day. Others believe differently.
The Birthpang’s of the Messiah “Week” (Chevlai shel Mashiach; Tribulation; etc.); This begins 10 days after the Natzal begins.
Yeshua comes all the way down to Earth (for the Natzal, He only descends but so far - "in the air".)
A sorting / dividing “Judgment” (will last 5 days);

Then


Athid Lavo (Messianic Era/Millennium/Etc.);
Last Resurrection and Great Judgment;
Olam Haba: New Heaven/Earth/Jerusalem (Eternal Abode).

"Athid Lavo" will be the 4th Primary Era and the Last before the return to "Olam Haba". The Primary Era now, the third, is "Yemot Mashiach" (The days of the Messiah (We grow in knowledge of God)).

Blessings.

Both?

So this view says in effect that Jesus opens the door, the Church enters. Then the door is opened again in 7 years. When I read this parable I see only one event. Doesn't it seem like a stretch to make 2 events out of this? Two events separated by 7 years wouldn't be consistent with a wedding ceremony would it?

Mograce2U
Jul 21st 2008, 01:16 AM
Both?

So this view says in effect that Jesus opens the door, the Church enters. Then the door is opened again in 7 years. When I read this parable I see only one event. Doesn't it seem like a stretch to make 2 events out of this? Two events separated by 7 years wouldn't be consistent with a wedding ceremony would it?Does seem a bit far fetched when you consider that is the DEAD who rise first.

Clifton
Jul 21st 2008, 01:34 AM
Both?

So this view says in effect that Jesus opens the door, the Church enters. Then the door is opened again in 7 years. When I read this parable I see only one event. Doesn't it seem like a stretch to make 2 events out of this? Two events separated by 7 years wouldn't be consistent with a wedding ceremony would it?

Apologies, but I do not understand you. There is more scriptures than one parable concerning eschatology, not to mention the customs and meanings underlying and linked to the text. We can create "anything" out of just one or more passages that does not flow with the structure and whole of the Bible.

The Marriage "supper" does not come until the end of the 'week' (at the end of The 7 Years of the Chevlai shel Mashiach {there are other terms for this}). I have the details about the Hebrew 'wedding' (coronation, marriage, contract, consummation, etc.) compiled by someone that many others have used over the years, and quoting it (instead of me typing it) could spare you all of my lousy typing skills:P, however, I just glanced over it as I was typing this post, and it is very lengthy - too lengthy to post. Here is an example:
12. Finally, there would be a marriage supper for all the guests invited by the father of the bride.

The bride and the groom would be in the wedding chamber for seven days. When the bride and the groom initially went into the wedding chamber, the friend of the bridegroom stood outside the door. All the assembled guests of the wedding gathered outside, waiting for the friend of the bride-groom to announce the consummation of the marriage, which was relayed to him by the groom. John (Yochanan) the Immerser (Baptist) referred to this in John 3:29. At this signal, great rejoicing broke forth (John 3:29). The marriage was consummated on the first night (Genesis {B e r e i s h i t} 29:23). The bloodstained linen from this night was preserved. It was proof of the bride's virginity (Deuteronomy {Devarim} 22:13-21).
Anyway, it does not matter, because when all the details of the wedding and preparations are intact: it aligns with the outline I provided you in the previous post anyway, so it is not an issue to me, not to mention, the festivals of the Messiah, and so on. To displace, remove, or transfer the Natzal to somewhere else, would be catastrophic, way too much.

And how many are getting married? :hmm:

Blessings.

Mograce2U
Jul 21st 2008, 01:42 AM
Clifton, I have looked up the usage of Natzal in scripture and do not find that it ever has the meaning of the rapture that you give it. Do you have a verse in the OT that does?

Oh, and in order to use your wedding analogy, you ought to first find it IN scripture, I would think, rather than in tradition. It is not tradition which binds the type to scripture.

cephas
Jul 21st 2008, 02:05 AM
Luke 22
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves;
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come...
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The marriage supper is not in heaven until gods kingdom is established on earth

Clifton
Jul 21st 2008, 03:06 AM
Clifton, I have looked up the usage of Natzal in scripture and do not find that it ever has the meaning of the rapture that you give it. Do you have a verse in the OT that does?

It is a term used like that for those that use "rapture", "harpadzo", "harpazo", "quickening", etc. Basically it means "deliverance". One can look up "Natzal" (or "The Natzal") on the Internet for research purposes - it will tone down the search listings as opposed to looking up something like "rapture", or even "harpazo". It is just a 'term', and is not unusual or uncommon - did you find "trinity" in the Bible? ;)

Anyway, the feast for the Natzal is "Rosh HaShanah" (or "Yom Teruah") {The 'last trump'}:
The Resurrection of the Dead / Rapture (Natzal) of believers. That is the 5th Feast where Messianic Fulfillment is concerned.
The last trump is associated with and is blown on Rosh HaShanahand is an idiom for that. The biblical name for Rosh HaShanah is Yom Teruah, which in Hebrew means "the day of the awakening blast." This trump (shofar) is mentioned by the apostle Paul in First Corinthians 15:51-53. Because “the last trump” is only blown on Rosh HaShanah and because the apostle Paul specifically mentions that the rapture (natzal) of the believers in Yeshua the Messiah will take place at “the last trump”, the apostle Paul was giving a clear understanding that the rapture of the believers in Messiah will happen on a Rosh HaShanah.
BTW, sometimes you might see "Rosh HaShanah" termed as "Rosh Ha Shanah", and sometimes those terms may contain two "n" letters instead of just one - just depends on what text(s) you are studying/reviewing. The "Ha" is the definite article and is prefixed to the word of it, e.g. HaBibleForums.

The first four have done been fulfilled.

The 6th Feast in relation to Messianic Fulfillment is "Day of Atonement" (Yom Kippur):
The Day of Messiah's Second Coming (Zech 14:4).

The 7th is "Tabernacles" (Sukkot):
The Messianic Era/Millennium (Athid Lavo).


Oh, and in order to use your wedding analogy, you ought to first find it IN scripture, I would think, rather than in tradition. It is not tradition which binds the type to scripture.Nope, because scripture has a lot of basing on customs and traditions, and plays important parts in the structure and outlining of the Bible. There are idioms, nuances, and so on - these things need to be known to understand the language (plus history, as one of my training books states), and that is why there have always been instructors, teachers, scholars, etc. throughout the millennia;

Also, it is not 'my' analogy, I am Gentile. That is just the way it is. Would you like more detail? I am sure we can locate these details that are commonly drawn up on the Internet.

Anyway, I said this elsewhere tonight, but let me put it to you here:
Just as unfamiliar foreigners may be confused when they hear Americans call Thanksgiving Day, "Turkey Day" or "Pilgrims' Day," non-Jewish believers in Yeshua can be confused by the different terms;
As for as Biblical/Hebrew feasts go, they have rode out smoothly, so I see no reason they will let us down now.

That Peanut Butter sandwich was pretty good. :P

Blessings.

cephas
Jul 21st 2008, 03:26 AM
It is a term used like that for those that use "rapture", "harpadzo", "harpazo", "quickening", etc. Basically it means "deliverance". One can look up "Natzal" (or "The Natzal") on the Internet for research purposes - it will tone down the search listings as opposed to looking up something like "rapture", or even "harpazo". It is just a 'term', and is not unusual or uncommon - did you find "trinity" in the Bible? ;)

Anyway, the feast for the Natzal is "Rosh HaShanah" (or "Yom Teruah") {The 'last trump'}:
The Resurrection of the Dead / Rapture (Natzal) of believers. That is the 5th Feast where Messianic Fulfillment is concerned.
The last trump is associated with and is blown on Rosh HaShanahand is an idiom for that. The biblical name for Rosh HaShanah is Yom Teruah, which in Hebrew means "the day of the awakening blast." This trump (shofar) is mentioned by the apostle Paul in First Corinthians 15:51-53. Because “the last trump” is only blown on Rosh HaShanah and because the apostle Paul specifically mentions that the rapture (natzal) of the believers in Yeshua the Messiah will take place at “the last trump”, the apostle Paul was giving a clear understanding that the rapture of the believers in Messiah will happen on a Rosh HaShanah.
BTW, sometimes you might see "Rosh HaShanah" termed as "Rosh Ha Shanah", and sometimes those terms may contain two "n" letters instead of just one - just depends on what text(s) you are studying/reviewing. The "Ha" is the definite article and is prefixed to the word of it, e.g. HaBibleForums.

The first four have done been fulfilled.

The 6th Feast in relation to Messianic Fulfillment is "Day of Atonement" (Yom Kippur):
The Day of Messiah's Second Coming (Zech 14:4).

The 7th is "Tabernacles" (Sukkot):
The Messianic Era/Millennium (Athid Lavo).

Nope, because scripture has a lot of basing on customs and traditions, and plays important parts in the structure and outlining of the Bible. There are idioms, nuances, and so on - these things need to be known to understand the language (plus history, as one of my training books states), and that is why there have always been instructors, teachers, scholars, etc. throughout the millennia;

Also, it is not 'my' analogy, I am Gentile. That is just the way it is. Would you like more detail? I am sure we can locate these details that are commonly drawn up on the Internet.

Anyway, I said this elsewhere tonight, but let me put it to you here:
Just as unfamiliar foreigners may be confused when they hear Americans call Thanksgiving Day, "Turkey Day" or "Pilgrims' Day," non-Jewish believers in Yeshua can be confused by the different terms;
As for as Biblical/Hebrew feasts go, they have rode out smoothly, so I see no reason they will let us down now.

That Peanut Butter sandwich was pretty good. :P

Blessings.


As long as what and were you get your stuff lines up with scripture then it is acceptable,so tell me how do you account for these actual scriptures.or are you agreeing with these scriptures or not

Luke 22
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves;
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come...
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The marriage supper is not in heaven until gods kingdom is established on earth

Clifton
Jul 21st 2008, 03:44 AM
As long as what and were you get your stuff lines up with scripture then it is acceptable,

Oh, it lines up with the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, which I have been acquainted with since the days I had hair on my head. Needless to say, my Shampoo usage has dramatically decreased since then. :D


so tell me how do you account for these actual scriptures.or are you agreeing with these scriptures or notI agree with the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures (the Byzantine Textform 2005 Greek New Testament, an "MT" Greek Archetype) - as for the English, that depends on the renderings in the various English Bibles (one English Bible may give a good reading where another does not, and vice-versa... etc.).


Luke 22
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves;
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come...
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The marriage supper is not in heaven until gods kingdom is established on earthThe font size you are using are too small on my end, (I only have one good eye, and even it can't read the "fine print" anymore), and are not the norm for this board. I guess I could copy it and paste it into a word processor and increase the font size to read it, but it is getting late, and I am ready to turn in, so if you wish to provide the readings to me tomorrow, please feel free to do so, and I will check the Greek, and even English renderings of the Aramaic Versions: the "P e s h i t t a" / "P e s h i t t o" Bibles, etc., and will be happy to reply.;)

Birkhot (Hebrew for "Blessings").

RevLogos
Jul 21st 2008, 04:03 AM
Apologies, but I do not understand you. There is more scriptures than one parable concerning eschatology, not to mention the customs and meanings underlying and linked to the text. We can create "anything" out of just one or more passages that does not flow with the structure and whole of the Bible.



The simple point is this:
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Jesus arrives, the Church goes inside, the door is shut. It doesn't say: Then 7 years later the door is opened, a new group of people go in, and the door is shut again.

There is only ONE event here, which I would expect with a marriage analogy. How can two distinct events be rationalized with this scripture?
Mat 25:11 Afterwards the other virgins came also, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you.
But this must be false. What Jesus should of said is: Hey, don't sweat it, I'll be back in 7 years and you'll have another chance.

Mograce2U
Jul 21st 2008, 04:08 AM
Clifton, #187 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1717411&postcount=187)
Or you could change your resolution to 800 x 600 - that helps!

cephas
Jul 21st 2008, 04:14 AM
Quote:
Luke 22
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves;
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come...
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The marriage supper is not in heaven until gods kingdom is established on earth


http://www.geocities.com/maria23http://www.geocities.com/maria23139/glossary.html (http://www.geocities.com/maria23139/glossary.html)

NATZAL - Deliverance. Used to denote the catching away of the believer in Jesus at the start of
the last thousand years of the Messianic era
















Oh, it lines up with the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, which I have been acquainted with since the days I had hair on my head. Needless to say, my Shampoo usage has dramatically decreased since then. :D

I agree with the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures (the Byzantine Textform 2005 Greek New Testament, an "MT" Greek Archetype) - as for the English, that depends on the renderings in the various English Bibles (one English Bible may give a good reading where another does not, and vice-versa... etc.).

The font size you are using are too small on my end, (I only have one good eye, and even it can't read the "fine print" anymore), and are not the norm for this board. I guess I could copy it and paste it into a word processor and increase the font size to read it, but it is getting late, and I am ready to turn in, so if you wish to provide the readings to me tomorrow, please feel free to do so, and I will check the Greek, and even English renderings of the Aramaic Versions: the "P e s h i t t a" / "P e s h i t t o" Bibles, etc., and will be happy to reply.;)

Birkhot (Hebrew for "Blessings").

Yankee Candle
Jul 21st 2008, 04:17 AM
The 'kingdom of God' that Jesus mentioned, Clifton, begins for believers when Jesus comes. But it won't begin for those on earth until after He touches down on earth and judges the wicked.

You were right on about the feast of trumpets and its connection with the rapture. Couldn't be more accurate. On the day of Rosh Hoshanah the Jews blew the trumpets at least 30 times. It was the last trumpet near the end of the day that was the most important. Hmm, wonder what that symbolized?:rolleyes:


http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/STK/STK021/PCL15940.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

wpm
Jul 21st 2008, 04:37 AM
The 'kingdom of God' that Jesus mentioned, Clifton, begins for believers when Jesus comes. But it won't begin for those on earth until after He touches down on earth and judges the wicked.

You were right on about the feast of trumpets and its connection with the rapture. Couldn't be more accurate. On the day of Rosh Hoshanah the Jews blew the trumpets at least 30 times. It was the last trumpet near the end of the day that was the most important. Hmm, wonder what that symbolized?:rolleyes:


http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/STK/STK021/PCL15940.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


Where are your Scriptures? You can only give so much opinion before we have the right to demand Scripture. Your own commentary means little.

Paul

Yankee Candle
Jul 21st 2008, 05:00 AM
"There is only ONE event here, which I would expect with a marriage analogy. How can two distinct events be rationalized with this scripture?

Mat 25:11 Afterwards the other virgins came also, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you.
But this must be false. What Jesus should of said is: Hey, don't sweat it, I'll be back in 7 years and you'll have another chance."

Sure there is only one event there. The virgins with no oil go into the tribulation. They are lost. You are speaking from silence when you suggest that those religious hypocrites will be given a second chance. There is no indication that that will happen.

http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/STK/STK021/PCL15940.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

Yankee Candle
Jul 21st 2008, 05:08 AM
Where are your Scriptures? You can only give so much opinion before we have the right to demand Scripture. Your own commentary means little.

Paul

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Rosh Hoshana!


http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/STK/STK021/PCL15941.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

Yankee Candle
Jul 21st 2008, 05:10 AM
double post. sorry.

wpm
Jul 21st 2008, 05:15 AM
YC

You said:



The 'kingdom of God' that Jesus mentioned, Clifton, begins for believers when Jesus comes. But it won't begin for those on earth until after He touches down on earth and judges the wicked.

You were right on about the feast of trumpets and its connection with the rapture. Couldn't be more accurate. On the day of Rosh Hoshanah the Jews blew the trumpets at least 30 times. It was the last trumpet near the end of the day that was the most important. Hmm, wonder what that symbolized?


I asked

"Where are your Scriptures?"

You replied


"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."




Where in this reading does it show "The 'kingdom of God' that Jesus mentioned, Clifton, begins for believers when Jesus comes. But it won't begin for those on earth until after He touches down on earth and judges the wicked"?

I don't see it. Show me please. Highlight the relevant words.

Paul

wpm
Jul 21st 2008, 05:18 AM
"There is only ONE event here, which I would expect with a marriage analogy. How can two distinct events be rationalized with this scripture?

Mat 25:11 Afterwards the other virgins came also, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you.
But this must be false. What Jesus should of said is: Hey, don't sweat it, I'll be back in 7 years and you'll have another chance."

Sure there is only one event there. The virgins with no oil go into the tribulation. They are lost. You are speaking from silence when you suggest that those religious hypocrites will be given a second chance. There is no indication that that will happen.

http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/STK/STK021/PCL15940.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


Why would Jesus mention a 7yrs trib? It is not found anywhere in the NT.

Paul

RevLogos
Jul 21st 2008, 05:20 AM
"There is only ONE event here, which I would expect with a marriage analogy. How can two distinct events be rationalized with this scripture?
Mat 25:11 Afterwards the other virgins came also, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you.
But this must be false. What Jesus should of said is: Hey, don't sweat it, I'll be back in 7 years and you'll have another chance."

Sure there is only one event there. The virgins with no oil go into the tribulation. They are lost.

Whoa a minute. I thought people could be saved after the rapture. Why wouldn't some of the unwise virgins get it right the second time? You are saying now that after the rapture, no one is saved?



You are speaking from silence when you suggest that those religious hypocrites will be given a second chance.

You come across as pious and judgmental with statements like these. These are fair questions I am asking in a genuine effort to understand this view.

There is nothing I am aware of yet that says those who miss out on the rapture have committed an unforgivable sin. What am I missing?

cephas
Jul 21st 2008, 05:38 AM
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Rosh Hoshana!


http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/STK/STK021/PCL15941.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


#1._I Cor. 15:51,52

51"Behold I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we
shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead
shall be raised incorruptible, and weshall be changed."
.
.
Read the last two lines in the above verse slowly, think about the
"order" (sequence)God inspired Paul to list these three events:
#1 The Last Trump,#2 The Resurrection,#3 The Rapture,
(we shall be changed). Paul would have listed the Rapture first,
instead of third, if this was to be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Also
Jesus says four times in John 6:39, 40, 44, 54, the resurrection
is on the Last day. So, if the Resurrection is on the Last Day,
as stated by Jesus, and in I Cor 15:52, Paul lists the Rapture
after the Resurrection. Paul has told us the "sequence" of
these (3) events and Jesus told us "when", (on the Last Day).
Is this such a difficult concept to comprehend??.... Clearly, these
two verses teach a.....Post-Tribulation Rapture..... at the
Second Coming of Christ. How can the Last Trumpet sound,
the Resurrection, and then the rapture happen, seven years
before the "Last Day" ? ?

.In fact all of Revelation is directed to the church, go to the end of this book and Jesus says, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things unto the churches..." (Rev.22:16)
Why would He say that if the church wasn't going to be there
anyway?? Do they think Jesus was mistaken?? Do you??

Clifton
Jul 21st 2008, 01:48 PM
The simple point is this:
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Jesus arrives, the Church goes inside, the door is shut. It doesn't say: Then 7 years later the door is opened, a new group of people go in, and the door is shut again.

There is only ONE event here, which I would expect with a marriage analogy. How can two distinct events be rationalized with this scripture?
Mat 25:11 Afterwards the other virgins came also, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you.
But this must be false. What Jesus should of said is: Hey, don't sweat it, I'll be back in 7 years and you'll have another chance.

I really do not follow you here and the reasoning for being stuck on a parable. I ASSUME that you have a philosophy that differs with that of Ancient Hebrew Eschatology? Sounds like you haven't got things quite balanced out yet - HOWEVER, it does indeed take a very long time of studies, even years, so I can understand and we all have/had a starting point for a very long road.

Nobody has another chance 'after' the tribulation period is over, but will 'during' then, and most of them will be Martyrs. There will be hidden mortal survivors and they will begin to repopulate the land. Saints that were "delivered" prior become immortals, whether they will be in the beloved city (the Heavenly Jerusalem), or in Heaven.

Again,


There will be the Natzal (Rapture). Yeshua does NOT come "down to the Earth" at this point, but descends so far to "catch up" saints into the air, and they will be with Him eternally.
The Birthpang’s of the Messiah “Week” (Chevlai shel Mashiach; Tribulation; etc.); This is also referred to as Ya'acov's trouble ("the time of Jacob’s Trouble").

After that 7 year period, the tribulation period (Yamim Nora'im),THEN Yeshua "comes (all the way down) to Earth."
Yom HaDin - A sorting / dividing “Judgment” (this category will last 5 days);

You believe that two or more of these separated events are as one? That would not make sense with the Biblical layout in the coherency sense. Not to mention, the Greek shows that the Second Advent is in 'stages' (or 'phases') - I have posted an outline and related Greek nouns and verbs for this a few times already in this forum. The Second Advent actually began after Yeshua's Resurrection, and is in a continuous and progressive state.

How many are getting married here?

Would you like me to post details for the Hebrew Weddings and the related things to it? It would relate to the spirit of this OP, but be forewarned, even if I limit the posts (plural) to, say, the sections, "Rosh Hashanah: The Wedding of the Messiah" and "The Day of Atonement Ceremonies", we are talking about, say, around 8 pages of text (i.e. MS Word format);

Let me know if that is what you want - I am sure in these days, that there are web sites that has the same info posted in recent years, but divided up into separate web pages.

Blessings.

Clifton
Jul 21st 2008, 01:57 PM
Clifton, #187 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1717411&postcount=187)
Or you could change your resolution to 800 x 600 - that helps!

Thanks.;)

Blessings.

Roelof
Jul 21st 2008, 01:58 PM
Clifton

I support your views.

Please refer me to your posts:

Not to mention, the Greek shows that the Second Advent is in 'stages' (or 'phases') - I have posted an outline and related Greek nouns and verbs for this a few times already in this forum.

Clifton
Jul 21st 2008, 02:23 PM
Quote:
Luke 22
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves;
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come...
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The marriage supper is not in heaven until gods kingdom is established on earth


I souped up the font size on your statements - but I fail to see "why" you are posting them.



http://www.geocities.com/maria23http://www.geocities.com/maria23139/glossary.html (http://www.geocities.com/maria23139/glossary.html)

NATZAL - Deliverance. Used to denote the catching away of the believer in Jesus at the start of the last thousand years of the Messianic eraRight. The Yom HaShem (YHWH's "DAY") begins then. This is going to be the Last 'Day' and will bring about the termination of the existing order of things. Yom HaMashiach (Messiah's Day) occurs simultaneously with this;

The beginning of a Biblical day contains darkness before daylight. Yom HaShem includes judgments. After the Natzal the Yom HaShem is in movement and progress which consists of events, which includes the 'week' (7 years) of ‘the birthpangs of the Messiah / the time of Jacob’s Trouble (Chevlai shel Mashiach/Ya'acov's trouble)’, and other times like the Athid Lavo.

It is very good that you decided to look up these ancient/Hebrew terms, it shows your willingness to study and learn, and check things out. :thumbsup:

The current age-span is "Olam Hazeh".

Blessings.

cephas
Jul 21st 2008, 02:29 PM
I really do not follow you here and the reasoning for being stuck on a parable. I ASSUME that you have a philosophy that differs with that of Ancient Hebrew Eschatology? Sounds like you haven't got things quite balanced out yet - HOWEVER, it does indeed take a very long time of studies, even years, so I can understand and we all have/had a starting point for a very long road.

Nobody has another chance 'after' the tribulation period is over, but will 'during' then, and most of them will be Martyrs. There will be hidden mortal survivors and they will begin to repopulate the land. Saints that were "delivered" prior become immortals, whether they will be in the beloved city (the Heavenly Jerusalem), or in Heaven.

Again,


There will be the Natzal (Rapture). Yeshua does NOT come "down to the Earth" at this point, but descends so far to "catch up" saints into the air, and they will be with Him eternally.
The Birthpang’s of the Messiah “Week” (Chevlai shel Mashiach; Tribulation; etc.); This is also referred to as Ya'acov's trouble ("the time of Jacob’s Trouble").

After that 7 year period, the tribulation period (Yamim Nora'im),THEN Yeshua "comes (all the way down) to Earth."
Yom HaDin - A sorting / dividing “Judgment” (this category will last 5 days);

You believe that two or more of these separated events are as one? That would not make sense with the Biblical layout in the coherency sense. Not to mention, the Greek shows that the Second Advent is in 'stages' (or 'phases') - I have posted an outline and related Greek nouns and verbs for this a few times already in this forum. The Second Advent actually began after Yeshua's Resurrection, and is in a continuous and progressive state.

How many are getting married here?

Would you like me to post details for the Hebrew Weddings and the related things to it? It would relate to the spirit of this OP, but be forewarned, even if I limit the posts (plural) to, say, the sections, "Rosh Hashanah: The Wedding of the Messiah" and "The Day of Atonement Ceremonies", we are talking about, say, around 8 pages of text (i.e. MS Word format);

Let me know if that is what you want - I am sure in these days, that there are web sites that has the same info posted in recent years, but divided up into separate web pages.

Blessings.





no sense in putting up your 8 pages,until you start actually addressing the actual timing of the rapture itself,I have given you the actual scripture on this that pre trib uses and you are not addressing it,because I don't believe you can,so you want to venture off into the marriage,lets stick with the actual scripture of the timing of the event itself


51"Behold I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we
shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead
shall be raised incorruptible, and weshall be changed."
.
.
Read the last two lines in the above verse slowly, think about the
"order" (sequence)God inspired Paul to list these three events:
#1 The Last Trump,#2 The Resurrection,#3 The Rapture,
(we shall be changed). Paul would have listed the Rapture first,
instead of third, if this was to be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Also
Jesus says four times in John 6:39, 40, 44, 54, the resurrection
is on the Last day. So, if the Resurrection is on the Last Day,
as stated by Jesus, and in I Cor 15:52, Paul lists the Rapture
after the Resurrection. Paul has told us the "sequence" of
these (3) events and Jesus told us "when", (on the Last Day).
Is this such a difficult concept to comprehend??.... Clearly, these
two verses teach a.....Post-Tribulation Rapture..... at the
Second Coming of Christ. How can the Last Trumpet sound,
the Resurrection, and then the rapture happen, seven years
before the "Last Day" ? ?

.In fact all of Revelation is directed to the church, go to the end of this book and Jesus says, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things unto the churches..." (Rev.22:16)
Why would He say that if the church wasn't going to be there
anyway?? Do they think Jesus was mistaken?? Do you??

Clifton
Jul 21st 2008, 02:45 PM
The 'kingdom of God' that Jesus mentioned, Clifton, begins for believers when Jesus comes. But it won't begin for those on earth until after He touches down on earth and judges the wicked.

You were right on about the feast of trumpets and its connection with the rapture. Couldn't be more accurate. On the day of Rosh Hoshanah the Jews blew the trumpets at least 30 times.

30 times?:o I would be out of breath. I am aware of the three primary trumps. There seems to be questions with people as to whether or not any of those three trumpets are shown as being blown in the Bible version of Revelation.


It was the last trumpet near the end of the day that was the most important. Hmm, wonder what that symbolized?:rolleyes:

Yea, The right 'ear' of the Ram, whoops, I mean the right 'horn'. :D

Blessings.

Mograce2U
Jul 21st 2008, 02:48 PM
Whoever Maria23 may be, just because she says that Natzal is a Hebrew word that denotes the catching away of believers (rapture), doesn't make it so according to scripture. Unless you have a NT written in Hebrew? Which makes interpreting from the Greek to translate into Hebrew then into English a bit difficult to follow. It would seem the proper way to go about this is to find out what the Greek words actually mean first, and establish its use in scripture, before we interpret that meaning to be now rooted in Hebrew. Especially since the meaning that one is caught up physically to heaven is not found elsewhere as how the word harpatzo is used nor understood in other passages. Nor is Natzal given this meaning in the OT. We have to discover what the author means before we can add what might not be there at all because of our eschatological persuasion.

The closest example I can find is when Philip was caught away by the Holy Spirit and the Ethiopian eunuch did not see him again. However the text goes on to show us that Philip was seen preaching in Azotus:

(Acts 8:39-40 KJV) And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. {40} But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

If you compare that with Paul and John being caught up to a heavenly vision, then you would not conclude that the rapture means that we leave the earth at all! Anymore than one reading the word Natzal in the scripture would think that was what deliverance means.

Clifton
Jul 21st 2008, 02:54 PM
Clifton

I support your views.

Please refer me to your posts:

Not to mention, the Greek shows that the Second Advent is in 'stages' (or 'phases') - I have posted an outline and related Greek nouns and verbs for this a few times already in this forum.

I have modified that outline since the post location/url I got on file now, but here is that older one:

http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1630900

Blessings.

John146
Jul 21st 2008, 03:15 PM
Oh, yes he was.

"...and I heard a voice which said unto me, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

What happened to John is EXACTLY what will happen to every true believer when the Lord calls us up to Him in the clouds. It will be 'in the twinkling of an eye."

Look, dear friend, just as Enoch 'walked with God and was not, for God took him' was a type and symbol of the coming rapture so was John's experience. It is identical to what Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:52 and it that is very obvious.

"That's nonsense. It would make much more sense to compare the catching up of the two witnesses, who are said to have died physically and came to life before being caught up."

No, it is not nonsense. The two witnesses go up slowly and alone in the SIGHT of unbelieving men but the rapture described in I Corinthians happens instantaneously. All the believers in the world will vanish instantly.

Definition: twinkling - (Greek) riph rhipe, hree-pay' a jerk (of the eye, i.e. by analogy) an instant):--twinkling.

American Heritage Dictionary:
twin·kling (tw¹ng"kl¹ng) n. 1. The act of blinking. 2. A blink or twinkle: the twinkling of a starry sky. 3. The time it takes to blink once; an instant: disappeared in the twinkling of an eye.

Have a nice evening.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

Was John changed physically and then caught up to heaven physically? No. Will believers be changed and caught up physically when Christ returns? Yes. There is no connection that can reasonably be made between what happened with John and what will happen to believers at Christ's return. That's the bottom line.

John146
Jul 21st 2008, 03:25 PM
"This is not referring to glorification and the arraying of the elect with their new bodies, this is simply describing John (an imperfect man still with his sinful nature) being caught up "in the spirit" into heaven). You seem to be ignoring to accept this fact."

I am ignoring nothing. You are, dear friend.

I would ask you kindly to read Luke 21:36 VERY CAREFULLY and think about what our Lord told us.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The pre-tribulation rapture position is NOT a theory, it is a fact. It always has been. No other postion yields a completed puzzle of prophecy as it is taught in the Bible. I have studied this issue for about 40 years and examined all of them thoroughly. Christ will come at a time unexpected and the pre-trib position is the only belief that matches that pre-requisite.

Mt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mt 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mr 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Lu 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

So unaware are we as to the time of Jesus coming that EVEN HE did not know when it will be! Talk about something that is 'imminent'? You can't get more imminent than that.

The pre-tribulation position is the only view that is completely truthful about Christ's coming.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!
You quote the verses from Matthew 24 that speak of Jesus saying no one knows the day or hour of His coming. So, why do you ignore the following passage that gives the timing of His return in relation to "the tribulation of those days"?

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Which day and hour was Jesus speaking about? The day and hour of His coming and the gathering of the elect, which He said would occur "AFTER the tribulation of those days". Jesus was clearly post-trib so I'm going to agree with Him rather than some theory that rose up only around 200 years ago.

John146
Jul 21st 2008, 03:54 PM
Whoever Maria23 may be, just because she says that Natzal is a Hebrew word that denotes the catching away of believers (rapture), doesn't make it so according to scripture. Unless you have a NT written in Hebrew? Which makes interpreting from the Greek to translate into Hebrew then into English a bit difficult to follow. It would seem the proper way to go about this is to find out what the Greek words actually mean first, and establish its use in scripture, before we interpret that meaning to be now rooted in Hebrew. Especially since the meaning that one is caught up physically to heaven is not found elsewhere as how the word harpatzo is used nor understood in other passages. Nor is Natzal given this meaning in the OT. We have to discover what the author means before we can add what might not be there at all because of our eschatological persuasion.

The closest example I can find is when Philip was caught away by the Holy Spirit and the Ethiopian eunuch did not see him again. However the text goes on to show us that Philip was seen preaching in Azotus:

(Acts 8:39-40 KJV) And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. {40} But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

If you compare that with Paul and John being caught up to a heavenly vision, then you would not conclude that the rapture means that we leave the earth at all! Anymore than one reading the word Natzal in the scripture would think that was what deliverance means.We will meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:17), which refers to the atmosphere above the earth. So why do you want to try say that no one will leave the earth at all?

Mograce2U
Jul 21st 2008, 04:31 PM
We will meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:17), which refers to the atmosphere above the earth. So why do you want to try say that no one will leave the earth at all?Because I was trying to show how that catching up to meet the Lord in the air does not mean we leave the earth unless you take it in a hyper-literal sense. Paul describes his catching up not knowing if it was in the body or not yet he remained to tell us about it. John was clear that his transport into heaven did not preclude that his feet were still on the isle of Patmos. Nor did Philip cease from the task the Lord had for him.

Those who are alive AND remain are caught up in this same sense. The resurrection is of the dead and the change is for the living, but together we are with the Lord forever. Thus saints in heaven and those on the earth are married to the Lord in this event. And that event was to immediately precede the judgment coming upon Jerusalem.

Amil has no problem seeing the spiritual nature of this event and says that we have a part of the first resurrection if we are born again. Why they see it as if it were a shadow and not a reality though is hard to understand. Are the living to "see" the resurrection of the dead, or understand that it has come? The revelation of Jesus involves understanding the spiritual nature of what He came to do - things we don't see yet know are true. The shadowy things are what is seen in this world - signs and such, which are not the things themselves.

Yet many are so earth bound in their understanding that if they do not see it with their physical eyes, then they deny they have these spiritual things. Hence the idea that Jesus must sit on an earthly throne else He is not "really" ruling from heaven...

John146
Jul 21st 2008, 05:07 PM
Because I was trying to show how that catching up to meet the Lord in the air does not mean we leave the earth unless you take it in a hyper-literal sense. Paul describes his catching up not knowing if it was in the body or not yet he remained to tell us about it. John was clear that his transport into heaven did not preclude that his feet were still on the isle of Patmos. Nor did Philip cease from the task the Lord had for him.

Those who are alive AND remain are caught up in this same sense. The resurrection is of the dead and the change is for the living, but together we are with the Lord forever. Thus saints in heaven and those on the earth are married to the Lord in this event. And that event was to immediately precede the judgment coming upon Jerusalem. Where in 1 Thess 4:13-17 does Paul even hint that what he was talking about had to occur before the judgment upon Jerusalem?


Amil has no problem seeing the spiritual nature of this event and says that we have a part of the first resurrection if we are born again.Paul was clearly speaking of a future event. And a physical resurrection is clearly in view. He mentions in 1 Thess 4:13 that believers should not sorrow over those who are physically dead, as those who have no hope do. Then he says that those who are alive and remain will not precede those who are asleep. What else could he have meant except that those who were physically alive and remain would not precede those who were physically dead? Then he indicates that those who were physically dead would rise first. Then those who are physically alive and remain would be caught up together with those who were previously physically dead to meet the Lord in the air...physically.


Why they see it as if it were a shadow and not a reality though is hard to understand. Are the living to "see" the resurrection of the dead, or understand that it has come? The revelation of Jesus involves understanding the spiritual nature of what He came to do - things we don't see yet know are true. The shadowy things are what is seen in this world - signs and such, which are not the things themselves.

Yet many are so earth bound in their understanding that if they do not see it with their physical eyes, then they deny they have these spiritual things. Hence the idea that Jesus must sit on an earthly throne else He is not "really" ruling from heaven...It seems like what you have done is decided that you dislike the hyper-literal view so much that you have now gone all the way in the other direction. I think there's a lack of balance between the physical and the spiritual in your preterist view.

cephas
Jul 21st 2008, 05:14 PM
Where in the bible does it say the last day is before the tribulation.

Where in the bible does it say the the last trump is before the tribulation

Where in the bible does it say the the dead rise first before the tribulation,when they cant rise until the first resurrection,which is not until after the thousand year reign.

Where does it actually say other than, we will rise up in the air to be with him

where does it say other than what jesus said himself all these things have to happen before he returns,and He said that would be after the tribulation
when does the moon turn to blood


Luke 21:27, NIV. "At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."


How many see him

Revelation 1:7, NIV. "Look, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of Him."


Is this a loud and visible event



What will we see and hear when He comes? It's in the Bible, I Thessalonians 4:16-17, NIV. "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

Matthew 24:27, NIV. "For as the lightening comes from the east and flashes to the west, so will be the coming of the son of man

the whole world sees it

where does this happen before the tribulation

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:


All of this has to take place before the tribulation starts how does Jesus rapture,when if fact He is saying the opposite,instead he says all of this has to happen first.and when this all has happened first ,then he returns


the rapture does not happen until verse 31,pay special attention to verse ,23,24,25,26

Mat 24:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=16&version=kjv#16)

Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=17&version=kjv#17)
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:


Mat 24:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=18&version=kjv#18)

Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.


Mat 24:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=19&version=kjv#19)
And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!


Mat 24:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=20&version=kjv#20)
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:


Mat 24:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=21&version=kjv#21)
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=22&version=kjv#22)
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Mat 24:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=23&version=kjv#23)
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.



Mat 24:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=24&version=kjv#24)
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.




Mat 24:25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=25&version=kjv#25)
Behold, I have told you before.




Mat 24:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=26&version=kjv#26)
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.



Mat 24:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=27&version=kjv#27)
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Mat 24:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=28&version=kjv#28)
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


Mat 24:29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=29&version=kjv#29)¶
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:



Mat 24:30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=30&version=kjv#30)
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



Mat 24:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=31&version=kjv#31)
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:32 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=32&version=kjv#32)¶
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:

Mat 24:33 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=33&version=kjv#33)
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.

Mat 24:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=34&version=kjv#34)
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mat 24:37 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=37&version=kjv#37)
But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:38 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=38&version=kjv#38)
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=39&version=kjv#39)
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=40&version=kjv#40)
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


Mat 24:41 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=41&version=kjv#41)
Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

cephas
Jul 21st 2008, 05:23 PM
Mat 24:33 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=33&version=kjv#33)
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.

Mat 24:34 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=34&version=kjv#34)
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

cephas
Jul 21st 2008, 05:29 PM
correction rapture
All of this has to take place before the tribulation starts how does Jesus rapture,when if fact He is saying the opposite,instead he says all of this has to happen first.and when this all has happened first ,then he returns

cephas
Jul 21st 2008, 05:42 PM
look how this starts out

Mat 24:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=3&version=kjv#3)¶And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


Mat 24:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=24&verse=4&version=kjv#4)


And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Mograce2U
Jul 21st 2008, 06:06 PM
Where in 1 Thess 4:13-17 does Paul even hint that what he was talking about had to occur before the judgment upon Jerusalem?

How about looking at this first in regards to 4:17:

(1 Th 5:9-10 KJV) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, {10} Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

If that is a far off future event then we are not living together spiritually with Him now though we have not died yet. And the NOSAS doctrines must therefore be true for us as well, even though this assurity was being given to the Thessalonians by Paul in an event that was soon to come.

(1 Th 5:1 KJV) But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

This puts their expectation about a wrath that was coming according to the season and times they were in.

Paul was clearly speaking of a future event. And a physical resurrection is clearly in view. He mentions in 1 Thess 4:13 that believers should not sorrow over those who are physically dead, as those who have no hope do. Then he says that those who are alive and remain will not precede those who are asleep. What else could he have meant except that those who were physically alive and remain would not precede those who were physically dead? Then he indicates that those who were physically dead would rise first. Then those who are physically alive and remain would be caught up together with those who were previously physically dead to meet the Lord in the air...physically.

Why must a spiritual event be according to what is physically seen to be believed? That is what signs are for - to show those in the earth the truth that these things are happening in the spiritual realm - which they cannot see otherwise.

It seems like what you have done is decided that you dislike the hyper-literal view so much that you have now gone all the way in the other direction. I think there's a lack of balance between the physical and the spiritual in your preterist view.That may be true but to make the spiritual dependent upon the visible and earthly is also a mistake. As is putting our hope off into a far future event which we cannot know we even have except to speculate over it. If we HAVE an assured salvation then these things must have been fulfilled as promised, lest how can we put our hope in it? What is the objection to seeing that the resurrection has begun to know that the OT dead have what Jesus came to do?

(Rom 8:21-25 KJV) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. {22} For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. {23} And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. {24} For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? {25} But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

What is it that forces us to keep the OT saints still in their graves waiting for this hope when it was their redemption too that Jesus wrought upon the cross and His own resurrection from the dead? This is the event they were waiting for so that the firstfruits of it could be gathered together with them. What need is there for them to be waiting for the entire harvest to enjoy being in His presence?

(Mark 9:9-10 KJV) And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. {10} And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

Apparently this was the case for the disciples before this event came to pass. It should not however still be a mystery for us!

cephas
Jul 21st 2008, 07:11 PM
You linked this post to my last one. Is this directed at me?


No it wasn't ,but it would be to Clifton,and if you would like to answer some of my questions from my last few post it would help

John146
Jul 21st 2008, 07:19 PM
That may be true but to make the spiritual dependent upon the visible and earthly is also a mistake. As is putting our hope off into a far future event which we cannot know we even have except to speculate over it. If we HAVE an assured salvation then these things must have been fulfilled as promised, lest how can we put our hope in it? What is the objection to seeing that the resurrection has begun to know that the OT dead have what Jesus came to do?

(Rom 8:21-25 KJV) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. {22} For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. {23} And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. {24} For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? {25} But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

What is it that forces us to keep the OT saints still in their graves waiting for this hope when it was their redemption too that Jesus wrought upon the cross and His own resurrection from the dead? This is the event they were waiting for so that the firstfruits of it could be gathered together with them. What need is there for them to be waiting for the entire harvest to enjoy being in His presence? Read the passage again carefully. Paul was including those who were dead along with those who were living as being the ones who were still waiting for the redemption of their bodies up to that point. Then he says that they were all still waiting for it.

Then there is this passage:

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. - 1 Corinthians 15:20-23


Now, the context here is only physical resurrection. That should be obvious. We know Christ physically resurrected from the dead. This text tells us that at His coming, the dead in Christ, which includes all believers from all-time (implied from verse 20) will also be physically resurrected. This is pointing to a singular future event, the coming of Christ, in which all those who were physically dead who belong to Christ will be resurrected. We know from 1 Cor 15:51-54 that when they are resurrected they will be changed and have new incorruptible, immortal bodies. Those who are alive at that time will also be changed. This has not yet occurred.


(Mark 9:9-10 KJV) And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. {10} And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.


Apparently this was the case for the disciples before this event came to pass. It should not however still be a mystery for us!What was the point you were trying to make here exactly?

Clifton
Jul 21st 2008, 07:21 PM
no sense in putting up your 8 pages,until you start actually addressing the actual timing of the rapture itself,

That post was not to you - I have address the location of the Natzal several times here and there throughout this forum when referencing the seven festivals of the messiah, etc.


I have given you the actual scripture on this that pre trib uses and you are not addressing it,I did address it in a reply to you. I requested your reasoning for it.


because I don't believe you can,O' ye of little faith.:D


so you want to venture off into the marriage,No, I did not - that was another user here, and you are replying as if the reply-post was to you - I could prepare some coffee if you wish - that might help you discern which post is which - I have Kroger's Creamer - is Splenda and Honey okay if you sweeten your coffee?


lets stick with the actual scripture of the timing of the event itselfI have, but I gather now that some are 'shifting' the position of the Natzal (or, 'rapture', 'harpazo', etc.) with "isolated passages" (as if that was all there was) to a "slot" (or, "time" in the course of the events) that is not coherent with everything else.


51"Behold I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we
shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead
shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
.
I think you might want to go to the FAQ or CHAT TO MODERATORS forum to ask them how to stop post text with such a tiny font size. Fortunately, I was able to increase the font size right here, to see what you quoted. We already known for ages that this passage relates to the Natzal, so what is your point?
See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 The Scriptures 1998+

Hinei! I speak a sod (mystery) to you: we will not all sleep the sleep of the Mesim, but we will all be changed. In a rega (moment), in the wink of an eye, at the last shofar blast. For the shofar will sound, the Mesim (dead ones) will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 OJB

Read the last two lines in the above verse slowly,Excuse me? I am no newborn. I suggest you better stand down Cadet, because I may wind up staggering your senses and you may find out I am one known to shiver the bones with a poof of wind to send the back against the wall. But, if it can get you walking on water, you'll be thankful in the long run.


think about the "order" (sequence)God inspired Paul to list these three events:What "ORDER" (SEQUENCE)? What are you talking about?


#1 The Last Trump,#2 The Resurrection,#3 The Rapture,
(we shall be changed). Paul would have listed the Rapture first,
instead of third, if this was to be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Oh mercy, I'm sorry, but you got things really so mangled up here. You mean to tell me that you think that because of how the ENGLISH is ordered for sentences, you receive some 'chronology' from it???:B

Dear friend, I hate to pop your bubble - but the Bible was not WRITTEN in ENGLISH, and your English Bible primarily comes (translated) from Hebrew and Greek (a little Aramaic for the Tanak {OT} in Daniel and Ezra), and at times and places, the "order" is quite different...
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 GNT-BYZ+
51ιδουG3708 V-2AAM-2S μυστηριονG3466 N-ASN υμινG4771 P-2DP λεγωG3004 V-PAI-1S παντεςG3956 A-NPM μενG3303 PRT ουG3756 PRT-N κοιμηθησομεθαG2837 V-FPI-1P παντεςG3956 A-NPM δεG1161 CONJ αλλαγησομεθαG236 V-2FPI-1P
52ενG1722 PREP ατομωG823 A-DSN ενG1722 PREP ριπηG4493 N-DSF οφθαλμουG3788 N-GSM ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF εσχατηG2078 A-DSF-S σαλπιγγιG4536 N-DSF σαλπισειG4537 V-FAI-3S γαρG1063 CONJ καιG2532 CONJ οιG3588 T-NPM νεκροιG3498 A-NPM εγερθησονταιG1453 V-FPI-3P αφθαρτοιG862 A-NPM καιG2532 CONJ ημειςG1473 P-1NP αλλαγησομεθαG236 V-2FPI-1P
Also Jesus says four times in John 6:39, 40, 44, 54, the resurrection is on the Last day. What and which kind of "resurrection"? It is believed the 'last day' lasts about 1000 years according to some Calendar, and 'that' 'day' begins with the Natzal (or, "rapture", "harpazo", etc.).


So, if the Resurrection is on the Last Day, The Bible speaks of "Resurrections" (PLURAL) and different types.


as stated by Jesus, and in I Cor 15:52, Paul lists the Rapture
after the Resurrection. Paul has told us the "sequence" of
these (3) events and Jesus told us "when", (on the Last Day).As noted above, that kind of thinking was 'debunked on impact'.


Is this such a difficult concept to comprehend??....It is preferable to stick to Biblical concepts instead.;)


Clearly, these two verses teach a.....Post-Tribulation Rapture..... Clearly not, when approached with the entirety of the Bible.


at the Second Coming of Christ. How can the Last Trumpet sound,
the Resurrection, and then the rapture happen, seven years
before the "Last Day" ? ?You are really off regarding terminologies. In regards to the "last day", see above. Also, The Natzal occurs at what the English Bible refers to as 'the last trump' (it is the right horn of the ram - the left horn is the first). The Second Coming occurs 7 years later at THE GREAT TRUMP ("SHOFAR HaGADOL").


In fact all of Revelation is directed to the church, Says who? And what about DSS Revelation, which I understand is in the date range of 200 to 69 B.C.E. (I would not place it any later 69 B.C.E.) which already contains a lot of what is in the Bible version of Revelation???


go to the end of this book and Jesus says, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things unto the churches..." (Rev.22:16)
Revelation 22:16 The Scriptures 1998+
16 “I, יהושע, have sent My messenger to witness to you these matters in the assemblies. I am the Root and the Offspring of Dawiḏ,{1} the Bright and Morning Star.” Footnote: {1} Isa. 11:1 & 10, Rev. 5:5.
Too many variants and alternate readings for that verse in Manuscripts...
Revelation 22:16 CGNT
16 εγω ιησους επεμψα τον αγγελον μου μαρτυρησαι υμιν ταυτα επι ταις εκκλησιαις εγω ειμι η ριζα και το γενος A=δαυιδ B=δαδ TS=του TS=δαβιδ ο αστηρ ο λαμπρος AB=ο TS=και AB=πρωινος TS=ορθρινος
...but nothing significant there.

OH! Now you do realize that even in Greek, there are at least THREE DIFFERENT GREEK ARCHETYPES that English Bibles are using, and they are not all in agreement with other for the Bible version of Revelation, yes? And then of course, there are Aramaic Versions that some English translations use (I have 4 English translations of those).


Why would He say that if the church wasn't going to be there
anyway?? Do they think Jesus was mistaken?? Do you??I don't think Yeshua was mistaken about anything, but you are mistaken about a lot of things - I can understand that progression takes time, but HEARTILY, please be careful when leaping too fast, because unless you gear in the right direction, you may land on concrete, head first, instead of ground soil and grass on your tail. ;)

Blessings.

cephas
Jul 21st 2008, 07:33 PM
Okay ,I got your message Samson,I will be back in awhile to ask you one question at a time,I will remind you right now though that the bible KJ was translated into English by 70 scholars,so you don't need to throw them on the concrete,as I am sure you did not know more that all 70 of them, so the English version is quite capable of getting Gods message across in English,I think God is big enough to keep his word intact in English the way He wants it until He comes back AFTER the tribulation,If you can show me where He contradicts his word on that we can start there

quiet dove
Jul 21st 2008, 08:19 PM
Getting a tad personal and heated over here. Chill out!

Clifton
Jul 21st 2008, 09:03 PM
Whoever Maria23 may be, just because she says that Natzal is a Hebrew word that denotes the catching away of believers (rapture), doesn't make it so according to scripture.

Who are you talking to Robin? There is no quote(s) or name here.

I am not familiar with “Maria23” and what you mean here, or who she is.

As for the term, Natzal, that is not new – the English term “rapture” is used for “caught up”, where the Greek is “harpa[d]zo”, and that term is used elsewhere as well. For ages we just "term" things (e.g. Trinity, Millennium, etc.), like events. The Greek term “harpa[d]zo” has no meaning of “deliverance / escape / saved” in its definition, but due to context, we know what it is talking about.

Natzal brings out the depth of it better, and when doing research on the Internet, it can reduce the number of search listings dramatically;

H5337
נצל
nâtsal
BDB Definition:
1) to snatch away, deliver, rescue, save, strip, plunder
˙˙1a) (Niphal)˙
˙˙˙˙1a1) to tear oneself away, deliver oneself
˙˙˙˙1a2) to be torn out or away, be delivered
˙˙1b) (Piel)
1b1) to strip off, spoil
1b2) to deliver
˙˙1c) (Hiphil)
˙˙˙˙1c1) to take away, snatch away
˙˙˙˙1c2) to rescue, recover
˙˙˙˙1c3) to deliver (from enemies or troubles or death)
˙˙˙˙1c4) to deliver from sin and guilt
˙˙1d) (Hophal) to be plucked out
˙˙1e) (Hithpael) to strip oneself
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1404

H5337
נצל
nâtsal
Total KJV Occurrences: 209
deliver, 115
Gen_32:11 , Exo_3:8, Num_35:25, Deu_23:14, Deu_25:11, Deu_32:39, Jos_2:13, Jdg_10:15, 1Sa_4:8, 1Sa_7:3, 1Sa_7:14, 1Sa_12:10, 1Sa_12:21, 1Sa_17:37, 1Sa_26:24, 2Sa_14:16, 2Ki_17:39, 2Ki_18:29-30 (2), 2Ki_18:32, 2Ki_18:35, 2Ki_20:6, 1Ch_16:35, 2Ch_25:15, 2Ch_32:11, 2Ch_32:13-15 (5), 2Ch_32:17, Neh_9:28, Job_5:4, Job_5:19, Job_10:7, Psa_7:1-2 (2), Psa_22:8, Psa_25:20 (2), Psa_31:2, Psa_31:15, Psa_33:19, Psa_39:8, Psa_40:13, Psa_50:22, Psa_51:14, Psa_56:13, Psa_59:1-2 (2), Psa_69:14, Psa_71:1-2 (2), Psa_72:11-12 (2), Psa_79:9, Psa_91:3, Psa_106:43, Psa_109:21, Psa_119:170, Psa_120:2, Psa_142:6, Psa_143:9, Psa_144:7, Pro_2:11-12 (2), Pro_2:16, Pro_6:3, Pro_12:5-6 (3), Pro_19:19, Pro_23:14, Pro_24:11, Isa_5:29, Isa_19:20, Isa_31:5, Isa_36:14-15 (2), Isa_36:18, Isa_36:20, Isa_38:6, Isa_43:13, Isa_44:17, Isa_44:20, Isa_47:14, Isa_50:2, Isa_57:13, Jer_1:8, Jer_15:19-21 (3), Jer_21:12, Jer_22:3, Jer_39:17, Jer_42:11, Eze_7:19, Eze_13:21, Eze_13:23, Eze_14:14, Eze_14:16, Eze_14:18, Eze_14:20 (2), Eze_33:12, Eze_34:10, Eze_34:12, Dan_8:4, Dan_8:7, Hos_2:10, Mic_5:6 (2), Mic_5:8, Zep_1:18, Zec_11:6
delivered, 58
Gen_37:21 , Exo_2:19, Exo_5:23, Exo_12:27, Exo_18:4, Exo_18:8-10 (4), Jos_9:26, Jos_22:31, Jos_24:10, Jdg_6:9, Jdg_8:34, Jdg_9:17, 1Sa_10:18, 1Sa_12:11, 1Sa_14:48, 1Sa_17:35, 1Sa_17:37, 2Sa_12:7, 2Sa_22:1, 2Sa_22:18, 2Sa_22:49, 2Ki_18:33-35 (3), 2Ki_19:11-12 (2), 1Ch_11:14, 2Ch_32:17, Ezr_8:31, Psa_18:1, Psa_18:17, Psa_18:48, Psa_33:16, Psa_34:4, Psa_54:7, Psa_69:13-14 (2), Psa_86:13, Isa_20:6 (2), Isa_36:18-20 (3), Isa_37:11-12 (2), Jer_7:10, Jer_20:13, Eze_3:19, Eze_3:21, Eze_14:16, Eze_14:18, Eze_33:9, Eze_34:27, Mic_4:10, Hab_2:9
delivereth, 7
Psa_34:17 , Psa_34:19, Psa_97:10, Pro_10:2, Pro_11:4, Pro_14:25, Isa_42:22
recover, 3
Jdg_11:26 , 1Sa_30:8, Hos_2:9
rid, 3
Gen_37:22 , Exo_6:6, Psa_82:4
taken, 3
Gen_31:9 , Gen_31:16, Amo_3:12
plucked, 2
Amo_4:11 , Zec_3:2
recovered, 2
1Sa_30:18 , 1Sa_30:22
stripped, 2
Exo_33:6 , 2Ch_20:25
defended, 1
2Sa_23:12
deliverer, 1
Jdg_18:28
deliverest, 1
Psa_35:10
escape, 1
2Sa_20:6
escaped, 1
Deu_23:15
part, 1
2Sa_14:6
preserved, 1
Gen_32:30
rescue, 1
Hos_5:14
rescued, 1
1Sa_30:18
saved, 1
2Sa_19:9
spoil, 1
Exo_3:22
spoiled,
Exo_12:36
take, 1
Psa_119:43
taketh, 1
Amo_3:12


Unless you have a NT written in Hebrew? Yes, and the Aramaic P-e-s-h-i-t-t-a in Hebrew Block letters as well. ;)


Which makes interpreting from the Greek to translate into Hebrew then into English a bit difficult to follow. Don’t follow you here. :confused


It would seem the proper way to go about this is to find out what the Greek words actually mean first, and establish its use in scripture, before we interpret that meaning to be now rooted in Hebrew. Don’t follow you here either. Maybe because it is dinner time. :P

Why would one want to look at the Greek first when they know the Hebrew, and it is from that where the Greek comes from? The Greek is loaded with Hebrew/Aramaic idioms, nuances, etc. Of course, knowing Greek is good - since most NTs are translated from it.

I’ll get back to your post later – it is already too lengthy now.

Blessings.

cephas
Jul 21st 2008, 09:29 PM
Okay ,I got your message Samson,I will be back in awhile to ask you one question at a time,I will remind you right now though that the bible KJ was translated into English by 70 scholars,so you don't need to throw them on the concrete,as I am sure you did not know more that all 70 of them, so the English version is quite capable of getting Gods message across in English,I think God is big enough to keep his word intact in English the way He wants it until He comes back AFTER the tribulation,If you can show me where He contradicts his word on that we can start there


Clifton from the bible only no where else can you show a actual verse that says the last day is before the tribulation?

Clifton
Jul 21st 2008, 11:16 PM
Clifton from the bible only no where else can you show a actual verse that says the last day is before the tribulation?

I never made such a statement.

Blessings.

cephas
Jul 22nd 2008, 12:22 AM
Clifton from the bible only no where else can you show a actual verse that says the last day is before the tribulation?


Clifton,I said I would ask you one question at a time,This is my first of a series of questions I will ask you one at a time

RevLogos
Jul 22nd 2008, 01:49 AM
Let me know if that is what you want - I am sure in these days, that there are web sites that has the same info posted in recent years, but divided up into separate web pages.

Blessings.

No, I don’t want that. I just want plain English.

As I understand it, there is a rapture where millions of believers are taken off the earth. This is quite a surprise to everyone, happens out of the blue. This is immediately followed by 7 years of God’s wrath. After which Jesus comes – this time with quite a bit of noise. Two distinct events.

During the 7 year tribulations, people can be saved.

This means everyone is given a second chance. Miss the first boat, get saved, get on the second boat. Or is this not correct?

We all agree believers are not destined to suffer God’s wrath. Then how do the new believers, who missed the rapture, get through the tribulations without suffering God’s wrath?

Mograce2U
Jul 22nd 2008, 01:59 AM
Eric,


(Mark 9:9-10 KJV) And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. {10} And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

Apparently this was the case for the disciples before this event came to pass. It should not however still be a mystery for us!


What was the point you were trying to make here exactly?My point was that even though Jesus spoke to them of rising from the dead all it did was raise more questions for them. And we don't seem to have any better handle on what Jesus' rising from the dead means for us either. If you read this passage in 1 Cor in light of what Jesus said to Martha in John 11:26 just before He raised up Lazarus, and also knowing about the people who came up out of their graves at His resurrection - how can you still not believe that we have the adoption even now? Paul may have been speaking futuristicly at this point in time - but he wasn't talking about any generation other than his own that this promise was coming to. Nor was John - whom Jesus specifically said would still be alive at His appearing/revelation/coming. The idea that we become disembodied spirits after death is not supportable by NT scripture which assures us we will not even see death nor be found naked (disembodied). I guess it all depends on what we think our hope is and what we actually expect our "mansions" to be!

Clifton
Jul 22nd 2008, 02:52 AM
No, I don’t want that. I just want plain English.

As I understand it, there is a rapture where millions of believers are taken off the earth. This is quite a surprise to everyone, happens out of the blue. This is immediately followed by 7 years of God’s wrath. After which Jesus comes – this time with quite a bit of noise. Two distinct events.

During the 7 year tribulations, people can be saved.

This means everyone is given a second chance. Miss the first boat, get saved, get on the second boat. Or is this not correct?

I don't know what you mean by 'second chance', and how you seem to indicate that those that will be in the Chevlai shel Mashiach had a 'first chance' prior to that. Can I ask where and how you gleaned this?


We all agree believers are not destined to suffer God’s wrath. Then how do the new believers, who missed the rapture, get through the tribulations without suffering God’s wrath?

Whom said they would - does this come out of a book in another canon (past or present)? They will either be martyred or hid, as those that have been for centuries - so it won't be nothing 'new' there. As for those that shall be hid, the Jewish believers in Israel will flee to the Jordanian-Moabite wilderness, from Pella to Petra, and be preserved there by the Lord for 1260 days. The False Messiah will try to hunt down these believers but will not be able to get at them. Yes, my friend, while there will be martyrs have will die for their faith (but there blood shall be avenged), there will be mortal survivors that will come out of the Chevlai shel Mashiach which will begin to repopulate the land for the Athid Lavo.

The Natzal begins to occur...
The 10th day later, Chevlai shel Mashiach. So the panic will begin to happen after the global disappearance of saints, and something will have to be 'done' because of this. IOW, if The Natzal begins to occur on Tishrei 1 of a year, the Chevlai shel Mashiach will begin on Tishei 10.

Blessings.

RevLogos
Jul 22nd 2008, 03:13 AM
I don't know what you mean by 'second chance', and how you seem to indicate that those that will be in the Chevlai shel Mashiach had a 'first chance' prior to that. Can I ask where and how you gleaned this?



I'm just reiterating what I read on this forum about the pre-trib. After the rapture, millions who thought they were Christians get the message they have been led to false beliefs. Many indeed are religious hypocrites whose hearts are hardened, but many others will realize their blunder, prostrate themselves and repent.

These millions I understand, are saved, even though they have to live through the tribulations.

Hence, everyone has a second chance.

cephas
Jul 22nd 2008, 03:19 AM
I don't know what you mean by 'second chance', and how you seem to indicate that those that will be in the Chevlai shel Mashiach had a 'first chance' prior to that. Can I ask where and how you gleaned this?



Whom said they would - does this come out of a book in another canon (past or present)? They will either be martyred or hid, as those that have been for centuries - so it won't be nothing 'new' there. As for those that shall be hid, the Jewish believers in Israel will flee to the Jordanian-Moabite wilderness, from Pella to Petra, and be preserved there by the Lord for 1260 days. The False Messiah will try to hunt down these believers but will not be able to get at them. Yes, my friend, while there will be martyrs have will die for their faith (but there blood shall be avenged), there will be mortal survivors that will come out of the Chevlai shel Mashiach which will begin to repopulate the land for the Athid Lavo.

The Natzal begins to occur...
The 10th day later, Chevlai shel Mashiach. So the panic will begin to happen after the global disappearance of saints, and something will have to be 'done' because of this. IOW, if The Natzal begins to occur on Tishrei 1 of a year, the Chevlai shel Mashiach will begin on Tishei 10.

Blessings.


What scripture do you have to give that those who go to Petra wont be killed,and others are martyred we know ,then you are saying the Jews are hid and the Gentiles are killed? because I understood the pre trib said there are two classes correct,so if what you are saying is different then,why all the scuttlebutt of this is only for the Jews

Clifton
Jul 22nd 2008, 03:21 AM
Clifton,I said I would ask you one question at a time,This is my first of a series of questions I will ask you one at a time

Ask as you wish, but I would first get the hang of this board and how to use its posting features and format - example, I may have missed your post here if it had not been the post on the top of the page, because I generally only look for posts addressed to me and where my name shows up in the quote box - example:


This is my message with my USER ID on it, in a QUOTE BOX. This is my message with my USER ID on it, in a QUOTE BOX. This is my message with my USER ID on it, in a QUOTE BOX.

I have a present for you... from the beginning into forevermore...


˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙1˙˙˙˙˙˙2000˙˙˙˙ 4000˙˙˙˙ 6000˙˙˙˙ 7000
Olam Haba˙˙˙˙|--------|--------|--------|--------| Olam Haba
˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ Tohu˙˙˙˙ Torah˙˙˙˙Yemot˙˙˙˙Athid
˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙Mashiach˙˙ Lavo


˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ 1˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙6000˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ 7000
Olam Haba˙˙|--------------------------|----------------| Olam Haba
˙˙˙˙ |˙˙˙˙ |------- Olam Hazeh -------|-- Athid Lavo --| ˙˙˙˙ |
˙˙˙˙ |˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ ˙˙˙˙˙ |
˙˙˙˙ |˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ ˙˙˙˙˙ |
˙˙˙˙ |˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ ˙˙˙˙˙ |
˙˙˙˙\|/˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ ˙˙ \|/
1. Garden of Eden˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ 1. Heaven
2. Paradise˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ ˙˙2. Paradise
˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ ˙˙˙˙ 3. World to Come
˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ ˙˙˙˙ 4. New Jerusalem

Paradise is a term for heaven (Luke 23:42-43, II Corinthians 12:2-4)
1.˙˙ Olam Hazeh = The present world/age
2.˙˙ Athid Lavo = The future age (coming)
3.˙˙ Olam Haba = The world to come (eternal)

Currently, we are in the Olam Hazeh age... let's peek at 3 levels of that, then there is the 4th, Athid Lavo.

===> God's 7,000 year redemptive plan teaches and reveals how individuals progress from spiritual darkness to spiritual life and rest. We are currently at the "Yemot Mashiach" level of Olam Hazeh.

1. Tohu = desolation (Speaks about being lost and without God)

2. Torah = Instruction (We learn of God)

3. Yemot Mashiach = The days of the Messiah (We grow in knowledge of God)

4. Athid Lavo = The future age (We receive our promised eternal inheritance)===> Time is going forward to the past. That which was is that which shall be (Ecclesiastes 1:9). The world to come is seen as being like the Garden of Eden. Time is going forward in a circle. The best way to envision time is not on a flat plain but as a circle.

Think I need to touch it up some more?

Blessings.

Clifton
Jul 22nd 2008, 03:38 AM
I'm just reiterating what I read on this forum about the pre-trib. After the rapture, millions who thought they were Christians get the message they have been led to false beliefs. Many indeed are religious hypocrites whose hearts are hardened, but many others will realize their blunder, prostrate themselves and repent.

These millions I understand, are saved, even though they have to live through the tribulations.

Hence, everyone has a second chance.

There will be one-third "saved" ("converted") in those 7 years - that is what Zechariah 13:8-9 means. I understand that getting Hebrew out into English is difficult, and one little 'Hebrew Verse' might expand into a paragraph of English, if not a page or more! Isaiah 65:23 is a good example.

I do not know where you get the term 'second chance', whether from some documents or other books. I have seen readings of new discoveries, and I cannot see where such a term has any meaning, any more than it would for today - people may get lots of "chances" all the time, and people reject those chances by the time they die - I would think if someone rejected The Almighty prior to the Chevlai shel Mashiach, that they would not turn around and say, 'okay, I accept you Lord', but would join the beast (even if only out of anger) - but, that is just a thought and an opinion on my part.

Blessings.

RevLogos
Jul 22nd 2008, 04:28 AM
There will be one-third "saved" ("converted") in those 7 years - that is what Zechariah 13:8-9 means. I understand that getting Hebrew out into English is difficult, and one little 'Hebrew Verse' might expand into a paragraph of English, if not a page or more! Isaiah 65:23 is a good example.

I do not know where you get the term 'second chance', whether from some documents or other books. I have seen readings of new discoveries, and I cannot see where such a term has any meaning, any more than it would for today - people may get lots of "chances" all the time, and people reject those chances by the time they die - I would think if someone rejected The Almighty prior to the Chevlai shel Mashiach, that they would not turn around and say, 'okay, I accept you Lord', but would join the beast (even if only out of anger) - but, that is just a thought and an opinion on my part.

Blessings.

I didn't get the term "second chance" anywhere. It just seems a natural fallout of the two event rapture. I gather that you don't like the term, but seem to agree in principle.

Regardless, it seems God must protect the newly saved post-rapture folks from His Wrath. Or does He? This is what I am interested in here. Many I assume are martyred during the tribulation, but then they are not escaping God's wrath. And the Bible says Christians escape God's wrath. This is where I am confused.

Zechariah 13:7-9 is about the coming of Jesus, His murder, and the resulting destruction of Jerusalem and the dispersion. The one third part is the many Christians who survived to be tried by fire (See 1 Pe 4:12). The two parts are the Jews who died at the hands of the Romans. The Christians knew to flee because of Jesus' prophesy. This prophesy passed over 2000 years ago. It does not refer to any 7 year tribulation to come.

But that's neither here nor there - I am more interested in how the pre-trib doctrine interprets it.

John146
Jul 22nd 2008, 06:03 PM
Eric,



My point was that even though Jesus spoke to them of rising from the dead all it did was raise more questions for them. And we don't seem to have any better handle on what Jesus' rising from the dead means for us either.Speak for yourself. I personally think it was made pretty clear how it's going to be. This mortal, referring to our body, will become immortal when the last trumpet sounds. That is what Paul taught. This obviously has not yet occurred.


If you read this passage in 1 Cor in light of what Jesus said to Martha in John 11:26 just before He raised up Lazarus, and also knowing about the people who came up out of their graves at His resurrection - how can you still not believe that we have the adoption even now?Because my body is certainly not yet incorruptible and immortal. But maybe I'm not understanding what you're asking here.


Paul may have been speaking futuristicly at this point in time - but he wasn't talking about any generation other than his own that this promise was coming to.How do you come to that conclusion? Are we not also waiting for the redemption of our bodies? Is it only Paul's generation that would experience that blessing? Sorry, but the last trumpet has not yet sounded. Paul was speaking of believers generically and not just those who he was speaking to or those who were alive at the time.


Nor was John - whom Jesus specifically said would still be alive at His appearing/revelation/coming.Unfortunately, you're not differentiating between Jesus coming in power through the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and Him coming back visibly and bodily just as He left (Acts 1:11).

The idea that we become disembodied spirits after death is not supportable by NT scripture which assures us we will not even see death nor be found naked (disembodied). I guess it all depends on what we think our hope is and what we actually expect our "mansions" to be!Wow, I didn't know you believed in soul sleep, Robin. We all physically die. But believers won't experience the second death as unbelievers will. That is why it can be said that we will never die. Physically, yes. We all do. Spiritually, no. The second death has no power over us.

If our spirits can't become disembodied then why did Stephen tell Jesus to receive his spirit (Acts 7:59-60) when he was about to die? Why did Jesus say not to fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul. He made a clear differentiation between the two. If the body and soul/spirit are truly inseparable then wouldn't the soul and/or spirit die along with the body?

Mograce2U
Jul 22nd 2008, 06:40 PM
Boy Eric you didn't even hear what I said :hmm:. Of course we are not in immortal bodies at this point. What has been made immortal IS our soul. My point is that we shall not see death when it comes to this body of flesh for in that same moment we will be standing in new spiritual bodies in heaven - the spiritual realm. Where we apparently differ is that you think you will be a disembodied spirit upon death for a season of time and I do not.

Jesus did have a coming in which no one would see Him "visibly", and that was to bring judgment upon Israel. The sign in the earth that He had secured the kingdom for the saints was the armies surrounding Jerusalem. It is to this event that the resurrection of the just is tied.

If you note in Acts how it was that Jesus left the earth it was "in the clouds". His return was to be in the same way via clouds. What do the angels say to the disciples who are watching Him leave? "What are you standing here looking into the sky for?" is essentially the gist of it, because His return in the clouds was NOT something they would see with earthly eyes, but would understand in the common idiom of clouds = judgment.

The idealist has to spiritualize all these things to make sense of them. But the resurrection/reward of the just - which is spiritual; is also a reality for the OT saints who were waiting for us and Jesus to come bring it to pass. That is what His physical incarnation was all about. Which His resurrection has accomplished. The dead ARE rising, because Jesus is risen and we have hope in death because of it.

My heart's Desire
Jul 22nd 2008, 11:45 PM
No, I don’t want that. I just want plain English.

As I understand it, there is a rapture where millions of believers are taken off the earth. This is quite a surprise to everyone, happens out of the blue. This is immediately followed by 7 years of God’s wrath. After which Jesus comes – this time with quite a bit of noise. Two distinct events.

During the 7 year tribulations, people can be saved.

This means everyone is given a second chance. Miss the first boat, get saved, get on the second boat. Or is this not correct?

We all agree believers are not destined to suffer God’s wrath. Then how do the new believers, who missed the rapture, get through the tribulations without suffering God’s wrath?
I believe it will be quite hard to be saved if you are not part of the Church that is raptured. Reason being that God sends a delusion so that all who did not believe the truth so as to be saved will believe the Lie. The Church age in which we live is an age of Grace. So it will be quite hard to get on the second boat. New Believers will no doubt suffer martrydom when they believe and more than likely not be around to suffer God's Wrath.
Actually the more I read about all the judgements on the earth, I have a hard time seeing how many if ANY people can survive. Even though I am pre-trib, in trying to understand the say, Post-trib position I just wonder more and more about the part I've bolded. How can ANY Survive the Trib at all? and yet some do and it talks about more than a believer whom God protects as it also speaks of Nations, the Sea (world) etc in Revelation who also go thru the tribulations of that time.

My heart's Desire
Jul 23rd 2008, 12:28 AM
Nevertheless it was Peter who first received a special revelation to preach the Gospel to the gentiles. An entire chapter and a half of Acts is devoted to it.

In Act 9:13-14, just after Saul is converted and arrives in Damascus, we see Ananias is afraid to go to Saul because Saul has persecuted those who follow The Way, and had the authority to imprison him. God gives Ananias in 9:15 the message so that he would not be afraid. Read and boldface the rest of the verse. "... and kings and the sons of Israel" which means everybody, Jews and gentiles. No special commission here.

Paul later says in Gal 2:7-8 that it was Peter's effectiveness preaching to the Jews that empowered him to give the message to the gentiles. This section of Galatians is discussing a conflict that developed between Peter and Paul regarding how the Jews and gentiles are to be preached to. Paul won that one. (This is the only time I can think of where the apostles disagreed with each other).

Bottom line is that when looking for some special revelation Paul may have had that the other's didn't, I just don't find it. It was Paul who said in Romans "to the Jew first." Peter did have a unique revelation in Acts 10, not Paul.

Is there anything else that suggests Paul had special knowledge? And why would he not write about it? If Paul were given some sort of special revelation as significant as a secret rapture, wouldn't we expect to see a lot of attention paid to it (Just as Peter's special revelation to bring the message to the gentiles took an entire chapter)? There must be some motive for God to keep it hidden.

I just don't see how you cannot see that Paul was specifically sent to the Gentiles when the verses I give say it is so. And if Peter continued to the gentiles, then why are most of the other N.T letters by Paul instead of by Peter where he is constantly saying he is an apostle of the Gentiles. Why are most of them by Paul instead of by Peter?

Another verse:
Galations 1:15, 16
But when God, who had set me apart even from from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased
16. to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
and 17.

As for "to the Jews first" we know that as a common expression goes EVERYTHING was to the Jew first.

(Sorry, can't help adding to this) And is it not possible that the reason God sent Peter to the Gentiles house WAS to show Peter that what God had cleansed do not call unclean speaking of the Gentiles. It was obvious that Peter was still in the Law keeping sort of mode by what Peter said when he went to Cornelius house.What was one of Peter's first comments to Cornelius? Acts 10:28 And he said to them, " You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.

WELL
Jul 23rd 2008, 12:35 AM
Both of these are actually the same event. You are wrong to give the impression that Matthew Henry, John Wesley and Barnes believed in the Pretrib theory. They didn't. This was invented in 1830 by Darby.

Paul

I agree, and also ignores what Jesus teaches in Matt 13

RevLogos
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:24 AM
I believe it will be quite hard to be saved if you are not part of the Church that is raptured. Reason being that God sends a delusion so that all who did not believe the truth so as to be saved will believe the Lie. The Church age in which we live is an age of Grace. So it will be quite hard to get on the second boat. New Believers will no doubt suffer martrydom when they believe and more than likely not be around to suffer God's Wrath.
Actually the more I read about all the judgements on the earth, I have a hard time seeing how many if ANY people can survive. Even though I am pre-trib, in trying to understand the say, Post-trib position I just wonder more and more about the part I've bolded. How can ANY Survive the Trib at all? and yet some do and it talks about more than a believer whom God protects as it also speaks of Nations, the Sea (world) etc in Revelation who also go thru the tribulations of that time.

Imagine when millions of people disappear. Millions more, who thought they were Christians, are going to suddenly realize God is serious business. Those who have bought into false teachings, those Laodicean lukewarm Christians especially, are going to get the message, prostrate themselves and beg for forgiveness.

As Christians we are taught to be patient. God likewise is patient and merciful:
1Ti 1:16 But here is why I was treated with mercy: so that in me as the worst, Christ Jesus could demonstrate his utmost patience, as an example for those who are going to believe in him for eternal life.
I would think these people would be saved. Why else drag out wrath for 7 years? After all, God created the earth in 6 days, why torture people for 7 years?

I am not pre or post trib; I am still learning. I am not even convinced at this point the wrath of God will last 7 years:
Rom 9:28 for the Lord will execute his sentence on the earth completely and quickly.
But giving everyone a second chance also seems out of character. God is merciful but also just. It pretty much invalidates the key message of the Parable of the 10 Virgins.

quiet dove
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:08 AM
But giving everyone a second chance also seems out of character. God is merciful but also just. It pretty much invalidates the key message of the Parable of the 10 Virgins.

But doesn't that depend on the context of second chance? I mean there are many believers who said no not only once to God, but many times. Had He not given them second, third, fourth, fifth chances, they would never have been saved.

Now a second chance when all has been said and done, or after one physically passed from this life, thats another matter and there are no second chances then. But as long as one is still in this physical, mortal life, more than one chance to say yes to God has been given to many many people.

Even a pre trib rapture does not change, alter, or contradict that which has already been shown. Before physical death, chances or should I say opportunities. After this physical life, no more opportunity. And during each persons life and also during the tribulation, every man ever born has had to say yes or no, choose whom they would serve.(or not serve)

wpm
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:39 AM
But doesn't that depend on the context of second chance? I mean there are many believers who said no not only once to God, but many times. Had He not given them second, third, fourth, fifth chances, they would never have been saved.

Now a second chance when all has been said and done, or after one physically passed from this life, thats another matter and there are no second chances then. But as long as one is still in this physical, mortal life, more than one chance to say yes to God has been given to many many people.

Even a pre trib rapture does not change, alter, or contradict that which has already been shown. Before physical death, chances or should I say opportunities. After this physical life, no more opportunity. And during each persons life and also during the tribulation, every man ever born has had to say yes or no, choose whom they would serve.(or not serve)

If every born again believer disappeared in the twinkling of an eye and you were a RC, Mormon or Muslim, you wouldn't be long believing. This teaching is way out and is not there in the Word.

The depiction Jesus gives is completely different. He likens it to the sudden destruction that befell Noah's world and that of Sodom. All the wicked were destroyed immeditely.

Jesus said, “the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (v27).

Jesus continues, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all” (v29).

The Lord concludes, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (v 30).

Paul

My heart's Desire
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:44 AM
Imagine when millions of people disappear. Millions more, who thought they were Christians, are going to suddenly realize God is serious business. Those who have bought into false teachings, those Laodicean lukewarm Christians especially, are going to get the message, prostrate themselves and beg for forgiveness.

As Christians we are taught to be patient. God likewise is patient and merciful:

1Ti 1:16 But here is why I was treated with mercy: so that in me as the worst, Christ Jesus could demonstrate his utmost patience, as an example for those who are going to believe in him for eternal life.
I would think these people would be saved. Why else drag out wrath for 7 years? After all, God created the earth in 6 days, why torture people for 7 years?

I am not pre or post trib; I am still learning. I am not even convinced at this point the wrath of God will last 7 years:

Rom 9:28 for the Lord will execute his sentence on the earth completely and quickly.
But giving everyone a second chance also seems out of character. God is merciful but also just. It pretty much invalidates the key message of the Parable of the 10 Virgins.
There will be many saved. Revelation says so but yet it seems like there should not be with all the judgements that do come. Well, we do know that many die, but it doesn't get specific as to if they are saved or not.
God is good and He is just yet many try to say that if He was there would be no lake of fire either, all would be saved etc. I believe His Wrath comes because He is Just. I'm not sure the whole 7 yrs is Wrath either. We have to remember that Satan also comes to the earth full of anger because he knows his time is short. Imagine what that might bring about too.
Not trying to prove anything, cuz I'm not totally sure, just discussing! :)

quiet dove
Jul 23rd 2008, 05:06 AM
If every born again believer disappeared in the twinkling of an eye and you were a RC, Mormon or Muslim, you wouldn't be long believing. This teaching is way out and is not there in the Word.

The depiction Jesus gives is completely different. He likens it to the sudden destruction that befell Noah's world and that of Sodom. All the wicked were destroyed immeditely.
Paul

To be here when the false Messiah comes will be sudden destruction having come upon the earth, even if for the moment it seems peace and safety. And all that is described in Revelation, it is all destruction. Even if all the vials and stuff are parallel or different descriptions of the same thing, which I disagree with, but even if they were, it still does not all happen in a moment, it takes more time than we associate with the word "sudden", to me 'sudden' describes how it comes upon them, not how long it last. The flood lasted 40 days, but it still came upon them suddenly. Don't know how long fire and brimstone rained down on Sodom , but it came upon them suddenly. I assume Sodom was destroyed in a short amount of time but not sure the time is told to us just how long that took. I am sure God could do it in a minute, hour or month. But however long it took, it came upon them suddenly.

Clifton
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:05 PM
What scripture do you have to give that those who go to Petra wont be killed,and others are martyred we know ,then you are saying the Jews are hid and the Gentiles are killed? because I understood the pre trib said there are two classes correct,so if what you are saying is different then,why all the scuttlebutt of this is only for the Jews

I do not understand what you are saying/assuming. Due to family things going right now, my time is limited here until things settle down better (they DO appear to be headed in that direction.)

Also, FTR, if you want "questions" "answered", then YOU will have to be fair and "answer" "questions" too and not dodge them - even answers like "I do not know", "I cannot {yet} answer", etc. is still an answer (I have to do the same thing at times) - such response is not an "automatic" dismal of one's beliefs/positions, but is just a note they may never have the "answer" or they are just yet to know. But when a person clearly dodges the question(s), that makes things very questionable (if not outright "noteworthy").

So when you answer, I shall answer too. You still have not addressed Post 220 in this thread yet. This is applicable to any other post(s) in this thread or any other thread(s) you addressed quoting my posts in them.

One thing I learned here - is that when someone is more interested in clinging on to "different" (the Biblical Greek for that is "heterdos") doctrines, instead of learning and progressing, they seem to circumvent questions asked of them, yet, seem to want questions answered - which generally is an "evasion" tactic, as opposed to 'confession' (pun intended).

Blessings.

Clifton
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:09 PM
Especially since the meaning that one is caught up physically to heaven is not found elsewhere as how the word harpatzo is used nor understood in other passages. Nor is Natzal given this meaning in the OT. We have to discover what the author means before we can add what might not be there at all because of our eschatological persuasion.

The closest example I can find is when Philip was caught away by the Holy Spirit and the Ethiopian eunuch did not see him again. However the text goes on to show us that Philip was seen preaching in Azotus:

(Acts 8:39-40 KJV) And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. {40} But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

If you compare that with Paul and John being caught up to a heavenly vision, then you would not conclude that the rapture means that we leave the earth at all! Anymore than one reading the word Natzal in the scripture would think that was what deliverance means.

It is just a term, a transliteration of the Hebrew which is a better equivalent - We use terms all the time, especially when it comes to things that “relate” to the Bible. I would suggest that, as shown in my previous post, (the first part of the reply to your post), Natzal (pronounced “naw-tsal'”) is better – maybe the English Transliteration came about in the past few hundred years, but it is not “new”, no more than “rapture” (which comes from the Latin). John Gill of the 1700s in his Expository Volumes uses the term, so he did not invent the term as some might believe – he wrote in a language that English Speakers understood.

Of course, many terms are used for many things – we see how often ‘tribulation’ is used. ;)

Blessings.
P.S. I have never been able to get that "TZ" letter pronounced right when it is at the beginning of a word or syllable.:blush:

Clifton
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:45 PM
I didn't get the term "second chance" anywhere. It just seems a natural fallout of the two event rapture. I gather that you don't like the term, but seem to agree in principle.

I don’t understand you here – and I have no issue with that term no more than ‘another chance’, as some ‘altar calls’ includes in their statements. I am not aware of any such thing as a person only having one ‘chance’ (as you call it) before their life expires here. I would gather it might be safe to say each and every person has at least one ‘chance’ to turn to the Lord, maybe even seven chances. The Lord knows. As for me, I am not aware, or remember of the Bible teaching on how many ‘chances’ has in their lifetime here on Earth, but if you have scriptures that express this, or you feel express some such numeric adjective to ‘chances’, as you call it, please feel free to let me know them, or refresh my memory. But at this moment, I do not accept it as any "Biblical concept", and believe it is up to God on how many 'chances' a person gets to turn to Him in their lifetime on Earth.

I got the rest of your post on file and will get to it in time. I want to catch up here at least a little bit.

Later.

Mograce2U
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:57 PM
It is just a term, a transliteration of the Hebrew which is a better equivalent - We use terms all the time, especially when it comes to things that “relate” to the Bible. I would suggest that, as shown in my previous post, (the first part of the reply to your post), Natzal (pronounced “naw-tsal'”) is better – maybe the English Transliteration came about in the past few hundred years, but it is not “new”, no more than “rapture” (which comes from the Latin). John Gill of the 1700s in his Expository Volumes uses the term, so he did not invent the term as some might believe – he wrote in a language that English Speakers understood.

Of course, many terms are used for many things – we see how often ‘tribulation’ is used. ;)

Blessings.
P.S. I have never been able to get that "TZ" letter pronounced right when it is at the beginning of a word or syllable.:blush:It seems like when we speak Christianese though that we pour meanings into words that may not be there otherwise. Harpazo, natzal, thlipsis (tribulation) all take on new meanings when found in scripture. IOW we create our own idioms for these words. I suppose it can't be helped... But then we assume the author accepts our idiomatic meaning, when it is possible he would not.

Clifton
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:14 PM
It seems like when we speak Christianese though that we pour meanings into words that may not be there otherwise. Harpazo, natzal, thlipsis (tribulation) all take on new meanings when found in scripture. IOW we create our own idioms for these words. I suppose it can't be helped... But then we assume the author accepts our idiomatic meaning, when it is possible he would not.

I can certainly concur with that (e.g. "wine" for "tea"). But what has been expressed here by me and others is nothing new to Hebrew Eschatology, nor their meanings, because many scriptures of one's canon are used. Really, when it comes to Hebrew Eschatology, some issues there are too much for a board/newsgroup, especially when such operations have sub-sections and different threads, and are best reserved for works like books and web sites - in these cases a user can refer to those.

Oh, my goodness, I just learned something new (a feature) about this board... when you are replying or posting in a thread, you get the name/title of the thread on top of the "Reply/Post to Thread" box! That is good to know... at times, I may begin chatting (directly into the board online) and forget what the OP is!:blush:

Blessings.

Clifton
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:37 PM
Zechariah 13:7-9 is about the coming of Jesus, His murder, and the resulting destruction of Jerusalem and the dispersion. The one third part is the many Christians who survived to be tried by fire (See 1 Pe 4:12). The two parts are the Jews who died at the hands of the Romans. The Christians knew to flee because of Jesus' prophesy. This prophesy passed over 2000 years ago. It does not refer to any 7 year tribulation to come.

This is just another one of those times many thought ‘the end of the world’, (so to speak), was coming because so much ‘fit the bill’, so to speak. But as time passed along, and ‘everything’ was not ‘fulfilled’, it was realized those times were not fulfilled. Of course, many did flee to Pella, based on the scriptures, and there lives did get saved due to that, but how many of them there were, I have no knowledge of, nor a count or calculation made back then. Things have generally always been reiterated, and get worst at other times. There is nothing new under the Sun.


But that's neither here nor there - I am more interested in how the pre-trib doctrine interprets it. I cannot answer the question because there are different “pre-trib” doctrines these days for us English folks (and probably for folks of other tongues as well), which vary with each other, so I can’t address all of them. I can address the things from Hebrew Eschatology side.

Later.