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Bugs Bunny
Jul 16th 2008, 04:40 AM
I've been discussing with someone about the importance of trying not to sin but also for those who do sin, the importance of God's Grace and Mercy.

The person is so strict that they fully believe that it be a number one goal in someone's life to get to know God fully and have no sin in their lives. That is you know something is a sin and still do it, then you don't show love for God and anything in mainstream Christianity like grace and mercy is just an excuse to sin some more.

What do you think and how would you explain it from the bible by quoting scripture to back your beliefs? This person is constantly quoting scripture about reaching perfection and righteousness and it just doesn't sound like there is any mercy even within his heart. Is it maybe he doesn't understand the forgiveness and mercy that our Lord gives with love to us?

servantsheart
Jul 16th 2008, 05:04 AM
I've been discussing with someone about the importance of trying not to sin but also for those who do sin, the importance of God's Grace and Mercy.

The person is so strict that they fully believe that it be a number one goal in someone's life to get to know God fully and have no sin in their lives. That is you know something is a sin and still do it, then you don't show love for God and anything in mainstream Christianity like grace and mercy is just an excuse to sin some more.

What do you think and how would you explain it from the bible by quoting scripture to back your beliefs? This person is constantly quoting scripture about reaching perfection and righteousness and it just doesn't sound like there is any mercy even within his heart. Is it maybe he doesn't understand the forgiveness and mercy that our Lord gives with love to us?
I am not sure that I can help. I feel sorry for your friend. He is taking alot upon himself to become a perfect being....knowing that Christ is perfect and not us. I understand that we are pre-ordained to become like Christ....as much as we possibly can. But we have to keep a form of 'reality' about our walk and not cause others to faulter because we are driven in some spiritual way that hinders or harms our Christian friends.
But I think I understand that he wants to try to not sin...we all want that but fail misserbly (at least I do).
Is he unforgiveing to you if you miss a step and sin? If not, then he is sinning by not giving you his forgiveness and allowing you his mercy and grace.
Isaiah 43:24 I, even I, am He Who blots out and cancels your transgressions, for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins.
If more Christians were half as diligent as your friend then perhaps this would be a better world.
Try to see the positive things in your friend and encourage him in these areas.
Pray for God's wisdom to be indside of him. And pray for patience for yourself in dealing with your friend.

Zack702
Jul 16th 2008, 05:13 AM
"8Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:"

These talks over the internet can get heated. We say things that are not convenient to each other because we are different. That is when I should lay my hand on my mouth. But for the sake of debate and for the council of many we say things to cause others to think. We write things and if they are folly or if they seam bad they are forgiven if we ask. That is the mercy. We do well when we have mercy and look to answers of grace. Thats something I have a problem with myself at times.

I think the very words your saying can help namely grace. If we keep that word in our mind and constantly define it then it might help. I'll try to keep it in mine :).

Joey Porter
Jul 16th 2008, 05:16 AM
I've been discussing with someone about the importance of trying not to sin but also for those who do sin, the importance of God's Grace and Mercy.

The person is so strict that they fully believe that it be a number one goal in someone's life to get to know God fully and have no sin in their lives. That is you know something is a sin and still do it, then you don't show love for God and anything in mainstream Christianity like grace and mercy is just an excuse to sin some more.

What do you think and how would you explain it from the bible by quoting scripture to back your beliefs? This person is constantly quoting scripture about reaching perfection and righteousness and it just doesn't sound like there is any mercy even within his heart. Is it maybe he doesn't understand the forgiveness and mercy that our Lord gives with love to us?

That person actually has a pretty admirable goal. Let me show you one interesting passage about "grace" that most folks gloss right over.

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age

In observing the Greek, the word used as "teaches" here actually would be more accurately translated as "chastens" or "disciplines."

See, God's grace doesn't simply turn a blind eye to sin. In His grace, He will discipline us for our sins to keep perfecting us.

And if we're not being disciplined, we are not experiencing His grace:

Hebrews 12
8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.

So, I would say that if someone calls themselves a believer, and yet is sinning amuck, and they are not experiencing any discipline, they may want to re-evalute their kingdom status!

Bugs Bunny
Jul 16th 2008, 10:28 AM
With this person I was trying to explain how perfectionism and constantly telling someone they have to reach for it would actually cause someone harm if they couldn't understand something. Say someone was learning disabled in some way but trying their best. He says that is just an excuse to sin. I say its a person trying and God understands what is in our hearts in some cases. Maybe I'm just not making it clear?

crawfish
Jul 16th 2008, 12:52 PM
With this person I was trying to explain how perfectionism and constantly telling someone they have to reach for it would actually cause someone harm if they couldn't understand something. Say someone was learning disabled in some way but trying their best. He says that is just an excuse to sin. I say its a person trying and God understands what is in our hearts in some cases. Maybe I'm just not making it clear?

Trying to be perfect has two problems:

1) it is impossible. We are all flawed human beings. All he is doing is setting himself up for failure - and for many, the frustration of failing to reach high expectations has the result of forcing the person to the opposite extreme. In other words, if they can't be perfect, then they'll give up entirely.

2) It also makes one feel as if they're "better" than everyone else, and turns them judgmental. They shoot for a personal purity that causes them to lose their desire to influence the outside world.

I don't think you're failing to make yourself clear. I think people like that are typically closed to outside help. Sadly, you probably won't be able to reach him until after he's fallen, and perhaps through failure he will learn to accept the grace of God and his own sinfulness.

Vhayes
Jul 16th 2008, 01:05 PM
I agree with what Crawfish has written. One thing I have discovered over the years is that when I make Jesus the focus of each aspect of my life, I sin less and less; when I get caught up in the "do's and don't's" I sin more and more.

It really is all about focus and allowing the Holy Spirit to use me as a vehicle to accomplish His will.

Hope this helps a bit -
V

timmyb
Jul 16th 2008, 01:07 PM
he who says I have no sin decieves himself and the truth is not in him..

we can decieve ourselves and say we're ok... but the Sermon on the Mount says something altogether different...

blessed are the POOR in Spirit... meaning humbled, not prideful, aware of your depravity... to say otherwise is to give into a prideful spirit...

daughter
Jul 16th 2008, 01:11 PM
I would tell your friend that, scripturally, it is a sin to suggest that we do anything for our salvation... it's a lack of gratitude, and a refusal to acknowledge that it is God who saves us "not of our own works, lest anyone should boast."

BECAUSE of God's Grace we strive to perfection... that is, like Vhayes says, we reach out to get nearer and nearer to Jesus.

In the same way as a Daddy smiles and helps his toddler walk, and picks them up when they stumble, so does God smile, and help us walk. We're not like Daddy, we're going to do do foolish and toddler things as we try "to walk even as He walked." But nothing is going to ever make me believe that He doesn't love me when I fall. I will try to walk, and when I fail, I might cry (as a baby does when they mess up) but I will still reach out to Daddy, and trust Him to take me home.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 16th 2008, 01:28 PM
That person actually has a pretty admirable goal. Let me show you one interesting passage about "grace" that most folks gloss right over.

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age

In observing the Greek, the word used as "teaches" here actually would be more accurately translated as "chastens" or "disciplines."

See, God's grace doesn't simply turn a blind eye to sin. In His grace, He will discipline us for our sins to keep perfecting us.

And if we're not being disciplined, we are not experiencing His grace:

Hebrews 12
8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.

So, I would say that if someone calls themselves a believer, and yet is sinning amuck, and they are not experiencing any discipline, they may want to re-evalute their kingdom status!

I actually agree with what Joey wrote very much but i would add

Jas 4:11 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
Jas 4:12 There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?


There has to be a balance each one should be convinced ion their own minds that we are striving for the perfection in Him as best as we can.

Tanja

OneOfVeracity
Jul 16th 2008, 04:02 PM
BugsBunny,

Many of God's doctrines are commonly accepted, but the one that is probably the most heatedly debated is "holiness." Living sin-free is commonly deemed as unattainable or impossible to achieve in this life; in some religions, it's taught that spiritual perfection won't be available until after this life. However, the Bible says otherwise.

BTW Webster's 1828 defines holiness as "purity or integrity of moral character; freedom from sin."

The Bible says:

"...without (holiness) no man shall see the Lord" (Heb 12:14)

"...present your bodies...holy, acceptable unto God..." (Rom 12:1)

"For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness" (I Th 4:7)

"...that we should be holy and without blame before him..." (Eph 1:4)

"...as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy...because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy" (I Pe 1:15-16)

The fact that there are so many opinions on this topic means there is a right and wrong side. I'd caution anyone who disagrees with the doctrine of holiness to stop and consider II Pe 1:20-21

II Pe 1:20: Knowing this first, that no prophecy (Webster's 1828 - Preaching; public interpretation of Scripture; exhortation or instruction) of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

There aren't multiple ways to interpret the Bible because God said it all, He just inspired "holy" men to write down what He said. In addition, your friend that's using the Bible to backup the doctrine of holiness is on track.

Keep in mind that this isn't my personal theory --- I'm using the Bible for this and know lots of people who live by this doctrine.

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 16th 2008, 04:29 PM
he who says I have no sin decieves himself and the truth is not in him..

we can decieve ourselves and say we're ok... but the Sermon on the Mount says something altogether different...

blessed are the POOR in Spirit... meaning humbled, not prideful, aware of your depravity... to say otherwise is to give into a prideful spirit...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with this statement..

If you look in the Psalms.. it declares and reveals to us that God teaches sinners in the way.. I dont advocate going out and living a sinful lifestye.... and then using that as an excuse.. no....

He is also close to those that are of broken spirit and contrite spirit.. broken and contrite over their own failures or the situation they are in or the oppression or affliction they are going thru.. It says He is 'nigh'... and those who are in that position He will not despise....

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/gifs/copyChkboxOff.gifPsa 25:8 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=25&v=8&t=KJV#8)Good and upright [is] the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.


Psa 34:18 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=34&v=18&t=KJV#18)The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Anytime out of our flesh we try to please God with do's and don't this often leads to a 'legalistic' type of relationship which kills the Spirit.. and it makes and creates a person that will become 'self righteous' in his/her own eyes... which is not 'truth'..

Psa 145:18 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=145&v=18&t=KJV#18)The LORD [is] nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.


Paul talked about 'knowing' his own wretchedness.. that is the situations he was in and that He needed Jesus to help him and strengthen him and forgive him.... and to carry him thru and out of them...... even when he stumbled.. and fell short...

There is something about 'knowing' your own wretchedness and how we cannot walk in this life without Him and His Strength, Wisdom, and Spirit..... when we can reach that point then we 'know' that it is all of Him that carries us thru and empowers us.

God meets us where we are humble, broken, contrite... totally reliant on Him when we pressing forward and when we have stumbled and fallen....

not arrogant chest thumping saying.. look how good I've become.. look how righteous I've become because of what I do and dont do...

The power lies in 'knowing' that He has forgiven you and not falling into condemnation of the evil one... getting back up pressing forward... quoting the Scripture at him when he comes attacking and accusing...




2Cr 9:8 (http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Cr&c=9&v=8&t=KJV#8)And God [is] able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all [things], may abound to every good work:

threebigrocks
Jul 16th 2008, 04:56 PM
Ephesians 5



24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.



Christ will present the church to the Father as holy and blameless. It is through Christ that we are able to strive for that which is perfect. Without Him we are simply sinners, and far from blameless and holy.

It is through Christ, in the process of sanctification, that we move toward that which is perfect. What many overlook is the cleansing, and that is something that many will embrace but not all will persevere through. To be purified by choice in following Christ, to be allowed to be purged of all of our blemishes and be found without a single spot. Christ will lead us there, if we are willing to follow.

If holiness wasn't attainable, then what of this:

2 Peter 1


4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.



Can we truly love as Christ did without being like Him, being godly? Can we love our brother the way we are commanded if we aren't first like Christ? No. It says in verse 9 that those who is lacking has forgotten his purification from former sins - returning to the flesh of the old man instead of remaining in the new man through Christ.

It is through Christ we are able to be made new, to be presented as holy, to be able to walk the faith and obtain godliness in order to have salvation in heaven granted.

If we narrow our path we walk now shooting for that narrow gate, the entrace gate that Christ passed through will also be ours. Sanctification will over time make the narrow gate more and more apparent so that we do not miss it. But it starts with following and imitating Christ who is our example of Christian living.
It starts with faith when we are made new, but doesn't stop there. We are not to rest but pursue sanctification.

OneOfVeracity
Jul 16th 2008, 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by timmyb http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1712179#post1712179)
he who says I have no sin decieves himself and the truth is not in him..

Let's "rightly divide the word of truth" (II Tim 2:15) here and take into account the verses both above and below the one you quoted:

I Jn 1:6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10: If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

(vs 6) - If we walk in darkness (commit sin) and say we're still fellowshipping with Christ, we're liars and are not doing the truth (that's Bible talk, not my talk).

(vs 8 and 10) - "For all have sinned..." (Rom 3:23) therefore "if we say we have no sin..." (vs 8) or "If we say that we have not sinned..." (vs 10) "...we deceive ourselves..."

The scriptures aren't saying "it's ok to sin and if you say you aren't sinning you're deceived." They are saying (due to Adam's fall and subsequent bent towards evil) "all HAVE sinned" (not ARE sinning) and since all have sinned, all need the salvation of Jesus Christ; and, if you say you have no sin (no need of salvation), THEN you are deceived.

Maybe an analogy would help here (based on Mt 1:21 "...for he shall save his people FROM their sins")

One day there was a house on fire and an elderly lady was trapped in the second floor. A strapping young fireman bravely fought through the fire and found her upstairs. He picked her up and told her "I'm here to save you from the fire!" Then he plopped her down on the floor and ran back outside.

When you are saved FROM sin, you no longer live IN sin. And, if we can't be saved FROM sin (Mt 1:21) in this PRESENT world (Tit 2:12), then Christ died in vain (Gal 2:21).

RabbiKnife
Jul 16th 2008, 05:16 PM
We are to "press toward the mark" of the call of God on our lives, and to strive to live without sin, all the time knowing that we will sin, and that when we do, we have an advocate with the father who is faithful and just to forgive us and to restore us to full and unfettered fellowship.

It is not an "either/or" scenario...it is "both/and."

ProjectPeter
Jul 16th 2008, 05:20 PM
With this person I was trying to explain how perfectionism and constantly telling someone they have to reach for it would actually cause someone harm if they couldn't understand something. Say someone was learning disabled in some way but trying their best. He says that is just an excuse to sin. I say its a person trying and God understands what is in our hearts in some cases. Maybe I'm just not making it clear?
Study out 2 Peter 1: 1-11. Show him the progression. Add to your faith (the starting line) virtue, to that add knowledge, to knowledge add self-control, to self-control add perseverance, to that add godliness, to that brotherly kindness and then to that love (agape). It is a process and certainly sin should be the rarity in the life of a Christian and not the norm. Can a person reach this point... I suspect they can. ;) Do all... no and that wasn't Peter's point. As long as a person is PROGRESSING in these virtues... their call and election is secure.

ProjectPeter
Jul 16th 2008, 05:22 PM
We are to "press toward the mark" of the call of God on our lives, and to strive to live without sin, all the time knowing that we will sin, and that when we do, we have an advocate with the father who is faithful and just to forgive us and to restore us to full and unfettered fellowship.

It is not an "either/or" scenario...it is "both/and."
Well now... not quite what John said. He said he tells us these thing so we may not sin. Not that we will so it's all just a pipe dream of ours! BUT IF we do... we have an advocate. No where does it say we WILL continue to sin. ;)

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 16th 2008, 05:31 PM
Study out 2 Peter 1: 1-11. Show him the progression. Add to your faith (the starting line) virtue, to that add knowledge, to knowledge add self-control, to self-control add perseverance, to that add godliness, to that brotherly kindness and then to that love (agape). It is a process and certainly sin should be the rarity in the life of a Christian and not the norm. Can a person reach this point... I suspect they can. ;) Do all... no and that wasn't Peter's point. As long as a person is PROGRESSING in these virtues... their call and election is secure.


I agree with this.. good post...

RabbiKnife
Jul 16th 2008, 05:43 PM
Well now... not quite what John said. He said he tells us these thing so we may not sin. Not that we will so it's all just a pipe dream of ours! BUT IF we do... we have an advocate. No where does it say we WILL continue to sin. ;)

Same guy that said if we say we do not sin we are a liar and the truth of God is not in us? That John?

:saint:

ProjectPeter
Jul 16th 2008, 05:46 PM
Same guy that said if we say we do not sin we are a liar and the truth of God is not in us? That John?

:saint:
Sure... and we all have sin thus need to repent. No question of it and yep... that's the context. ;)

1 John 1:5 *ķAnd this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
6 *If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
7 *but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 *If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 *If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 *If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

1 John 2:1 *My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

Notice that the words I quoted from 2:1 come right after the verse you quoted. ;)

OneOfVeracity
Jul 16th 2008, 05:51 PM
Study out 2 Peter 1: 1-11. Show him the progression. Add to your faith (the starting line) virtue, to that add knowledge, to knowledge add self-control, to self-control add perseverance, to that add godliness, to that brotherly kindness and then to that love (agape). It is a process and certainly sin should be the rarity in the life of a Christian and not the norm. Can a person reach this point... I suspect they can. ;) Do all... no and that wasn't Peter's point. As long as a person is PROGRESSING in these virtues... their call and election is secure.

How about the last part of that scripture..."for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall"?

(Webster's 1828) fall - To drop from a higher place; To depart from the faith, or from rectitude; to apostatize. Adam fell by eating the forbidden fruit;to be plunged into misery; as, to fall from an elevated station, or from a prosperous state.

(Webster's 1828) backslide - to fall off; to apostatize

(Webster's 1828) apostatize - to abandon one's profession or church; to forsake principles or faith which one has professed; or the party to which one has been attached

Fall=backslide/apostatize

How is "never fall" and "eventual sinlessness" or "a work towards sinlessness" synonymous?

ProjectPeter
Jul 16th 2008, 06:06 PM
How about the last part of that scripture..."for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall"?

(Webster's 1828) fall - To drop from a higher place; To depart from the faith, or from rectitude; to apostatize. Adam fell by eating the forbidden fruit;to be plunged into misery; as, to fall from an elevated station, or from a prosperous state.

(Webster's 1828) backslide - to fall off; to apostatize

(Webster's 1828) apostatize - to abandon one's profession or church; to forsake principles or faith which one has professed; or the party to which one has been attached

Fall=backslide/apostatize

How is "never fall" and "eventual sinlessness" or "a work towards sinlessness" synonymous?
That's what I said. ;) IF they progress in those things then they will never stumble... fall... their call and election is secure. If you don't... going to have issues. ;)

momof471
Jul 16th 2008, 06:39 PM
I personally consider myself a work in progress. I am saved by God's grace, but this by far, does not make me perfect. I continuously sin, however, I am more aware of what I do and do try to change my patterns with God's help.

We are human and are sinners and thus we are blessed by the gift God has given us, if we only accept it.

OneOfVeracity
Jul 16th 2008, 06:56 PM
I personally consider myself a work in progress. I am saved by God's grace, but this by far, does not make me perfect. I continuously sin, however, I am more aware of what I do and do try to change my patterns with God's help.

We are human and are sinners and thus we are blessed by the gift God has given us, if we only accept it.

You continuously sin...how do you receive forgiveness for your sins?

Literalist-Luke
Jul 16th 2008, 07:08 PM
I've been discussing with someone about the importance of trying not to sin but also for those who do sin, the importance of God's Grace and Mercy.

The person is so strict that they fully believe that it be a number one goal in someone's life to get to know God fully and have no sin in their lives. That is you know something is a sin and still do it, then you don't show love for God and anything in mainstream Christianity like grace and mercy is just an excuse to sin some more.

What do you think and how would you explain it from the bible by quoting scripture to back your beliefs? This person is constantly quoting scripture about reaching perfection and righteousness and it just doesn't sound like there is any mercy even within his heart. Is it maybe he doesn't understand the forgiveness and mercy that our Lord gives with love to us?Is this somebody you live with?

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 16th 2008, 08:36 PM
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Luke 10:18-14

Its interesting to see Jesus the Christ's teaching on exalting oneself due to self righteousness... He gives a clear picture of who and what those people act like...its' no different today..

In realitiy its a condition of the heart.. exalting oneself.... pompous.. looking down on others.. judging others as to what sin they were committing and how bad they were in the eyes of God.. intstead of examining one self or taking a self examination on their own condition or state of the heart...

look who he/she is praying too.. God...

so he/she was decieved..into believing that they were righteous in the eyes of God due to how they felt in their heart.. measuring others shortcomings and sins and elevating themselves based on those..

and who did Jesus say was"Just" in His eyes? look at the rest of the teaching......

then.. you begin to see who is actually 'just' in the Eyes of the Lord... then you begin to see that place of humility.. what the Psalmist wrote about when he penned those Scriptures in my prior post.

Friend of I AM
Jul 16th 2008, 08:55 PM
I've been discussing with someone about the importance of trying not to sin but also for those who do sin, the importance of God's Grace and Mercy.

The person is so strict that they fully believe that it be a number one goal in someone's life to get to know God fully and have no sin in their lives. That is you know something is a sin and still do it, then you don't show love for God and anything in mainstream Christianity like grace and mercy is just an excuse to sin some more.

What do you think and how would you explain it from the bible by quoting scripture to back your beliefs? This person is constantly quoting scripture about reaching perfection and righteousness and it just doesn't sound like there is any mercy even within his heart. Is it maybe he doesn't understand the forgiveness and mercy that our Lord gives with love to us?

I don't know the best way to explain it to him, I would say one should just try to let him know that he is a child of God despite the fact that he may mess up sometimes. I think the worst thing an individual can do in their daily walk is set the standard for perfection so high, that they make it nearly impossible for themselves to ever reach whatever goal it is they think they need to make it to in order to receive God's love.

I don't think Jesus ever intended for anyone to be in a constant loop or have a constant feeling of doubt regarding his loving them. He did however, just want his disciples to continue to follow and love him, despite the good or the bad times that happened within their lives while they followed him. I think this is what Jesus meant when he stated "be perfect - like your heavenly father is perfect." We may fall short of the mark sometimes, but we can come back to him each time in repentance, knowing that if we earnestly are trying - God will help us back up during our walks.

In Christ,

Stephen

OneOfVeracity
Jul 16th 2008, 09:05 PM
RE: TheBelovedDisciple's last reply...

How do your passages line up with my original scriptures in Post#11?

The Bible defines how God demands holiness; the Bible also defines (in your latest post) how simply following the rites and rituals of the Old Testament (which is what the Pharisees did instead of obeying the gospel of Christ in it's New Testament form) doesn't grant you salvation.

I would challenge you (respectfully challenge you...I'm not trying to belittle or degrade you) to address those scriptures in Post#11 individually and explain what they mean to you.

I also challenge you to think about why we (not just you and I...but others among this post) have different viewpoints on this topic. That alone means there is right and there is wrong interpretation of the scriptures somewhere (II Pe 1:20 --- Knowing this first, that no prophecy (Webster's 1828 - Preaching; public interpretation of Scripture; exhortation or instruction) of the scripture is of any private interpretation.). The Bible wasn't designed to trick people or to be put up for voting on what is right and what is wrong or to be defined a bunch of different ways.

And, this isn't about the ability to wear the "I'm right and you're wrong" badge. These are serious matters. We're discussing holiness..."without which no man shall see the Lord" (Heb 4:12).

I don't know about you, but if it takes holiness to see the Lord, I'm SURELY going to find out what it takes to be that way so I can see Him.

Respectfully,
OneOfVeracity

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 16th 2008, 09:44 PM
RE: TheBelovedDisciple's last reply...

How do your passages line up with my original scriptures in Post#11?

The Bible defines how God demands holiness; the Bible also defines (in your latest post) how simply following the rites and rituals of the Old Testament (which is what the Pharisees did instead of obeying the gospel of Christ in it's New Testament form) doesn't grant you salvation.

I would challenge you (respectfully challenge you...I'm not trying to belittle or degrade you) to address those scriptures in Post#11 individually and explain what they mean to you.

I also challenge you to think about why we (not just you and I...but others among this post) have different viewpoints on this topic. That alone means there is right and there is wrong interpretation of the scriptures somewhere (II Pe 1:20 --- Knowing this first, that no prophecy (Webster's 1828 - Preaching; public interpretation of Scripture; exhortation or instruction) of the scripture is of any private interpretation.). The Bible wasn't designed to trick people or to be put up for voting on what is right and what is wrong or to be defined a bunch of different ways.

And, this isn't about the ability to wear the "I'm right and you're wrong" badge. These are serious matters. We're discussing holiness..."without which no man shall see the Lord" (Heb 4:12).

I don't know about you, but if it takes holiness to see the Lord, I'm SURELY going to find out what it takes to be that way so I can see Him.

Respectfully,
OneOfVeracity
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Yes God demands>>>>>>> Holiness.....

I"ve never denied that in my posts nor have I taught that you can live an ungodly and sinful lifestyle and use that as an excuse.....

He demands Holiness period.....

All I've done is quote what Jesus taught about the 'dangers' of becoming self righteous..elevating oneself out of a pompous heart and pride .. by looking down on others and elevating oneself by others shortcomings or failures...


I have to ask you a question.. What do you consider Holiness in your life?

Is touch not, taste not, I don't do this, I dont do that... based on making yourself feel good and elevating yourself above others, maybe its out of a set of rules or regualtions set down my certain men.. in religion....


or do you keep oneself holy out of a revrent fear of Him and out of a effectual- vibrant- alive relationship with the Living Word...Jesus the Christ..
I strive daily to make this my Source of Holiness.. doing things and not doing things out of a Revrent fear of Him and a vibrant- effectual- alive Relationship with Him...

thats my question I pose to you.. I will not judge you for God knows your heart as He does mine.. and He knows it well and He knows that I lie not... when I speak these things..

I've known people who are very legalistic..

touch not, taste not, dont do this, dont do that.. they look 'very' holy and appear very holy on the outside.. but only to find out that most of time they are striving to be holy thru rules, regulations, set down my men in religion.. and when visiting with these people.. they are very condemning and judgemental.. and in the worst way, very 'bitter'...... they are in bondage... literally...

Like I said before.. Its an issue of the 'heart'.. for God will judge men women children soon by the secrets and intentions of their heart...

I just want to reiterate that I've never said or mentioned in my post that God doesnt demand HOLINESS.. for He does.. and I"ve never advocated living a sinful and ungodly lifestyle... and using that as an excuse to continue in that because God will forgive.... NEVER have I advocated that... that is contrary to Scripture...

this will be my last post on this thread.. I hope I answered your questions to the #11 post..

Examining oneself and looking to see where the source of your Holiness is coming from........ is it rules and regulations by men in religion or is it the 'Living Word'... I will end on that.. Amen..

momof471
Jul 17th 2008, 05:21 AM
You continuously sin...how do you receive forgiveness for your sins?


I repent of my sins. I continue to ask for God's help in my personal daily struggles as well. I am not perfect, none of us are. To think that we could do anything to make ourselves worthy in God's eyes is not wise. Our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ and the gift is ours if we choose to accept it.

ProjectPeter
Jul 17th 2008, 11:45 AM
I repent of my sins. I continue to ask for God's help in my personal daily struggles as well. I am not perfect, none of us are. To think that we could do anything to make ourselves worthy in God's eyes is not wise. Our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ and the gift is ours if we choose to accept it.
Tell me this though... and ponder it a bit. If we can't do anything then why does God empower us with all we need to attain a life of godliness in this here nasty now and now?

Again... let me point to 2 Peter 1:1-11. Study that a bit when you have some time and see what it is telling you. :)