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theleast
Jul 16th 2008, 04:14 PM
1 Corinthians 15:52 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Corinthians+15:52&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Corinthians+15&version=9)
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This verse right here clearly defines that after the seventh and final trumpet, that is when the rapture occurs. Not before the first trumpet, not somewhere in the middle, but only after the seventh trumpet.

I challenge those of the pre-tribulation belief to back up using scripture how the rapture occurs before the tribulation.

HisLeast
Jul 16th 2008, 04:35 PM
Wow am I ever glad that's settled.

Metadyjital
Jul 16th 2008, 05:30 PM
Whew! Me too! Now the church can finally come together! Thanks!:D

Actually Bro or Sis - Who cares? God will do what He does - just make sure He has your heart when He comes

talmidim
Jul 16th 2008, 05:49 PM
1 Corinthians 15:52 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1%20Corinthians+ 15:52&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1%20Corinthians+ 15&version=9)
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This verse right here clearly defines that after the seventh and final trumpet, that is when the rapture occurs. Not before the first trumpet, not somewhere in the middle, but only after the seventh trumpet.

I challenge those of the pre-tribulation belief to back up using scripture how the rapture occurs before the tribulation.Hello my friend. I am curious. Do you know where the term, 'the last trump' came from? Here's a hint: 1st Corinthians was written many years before the book of the Revelation.

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 16th 2008, 05:57 PM
1 Corinthians 15:52 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Corinthians+15:52&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Corinthians+15&version=9)
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This verse right here clearly defines that after the seventh and final trumpet, that is when the rapture occurs. Not before the first trumpet, not somewhere in the middle, but only after the seventh trumpet.

I challenge those of the pre-tribulation belief to back up using scripture how the rapture occurs before the tribulation.
-------------------------------------------------------------
One question for you......

During that tribulation or even the great tribulation.. are you as a born again Christian going to have to undergo and be subject to God's wrath that He pours out on a rebellious planet that rejected Him and followed the father of lies?

markedward
Jul 16th 2008, 06:01 PM
Jesus did say His followers would undergo persecution, then "the end" would come, then the coming of the Son of Man, then the "gathering of the elect."

Jesus Himself directly times the "rapture" as taking place after the tribulation.

talmidim
Jul 16th 2008, 06:02 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------
One question for you......

During that tribulation or even the great tribulation.. are you as a born again Christian going to have to undergo and be subject to God's wrath that He pours out on a rebellious planet that rejected Him and followed the father of lies?And what was Abraham's conversation with Him about, if not to separate the righteous from the wicked in the face of His wrath?

markedward
Jul 16th 2008, 06:15 PM
The Parable of the Weeds
The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?

'An enemy did this,' he replied.


The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'


'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'



Jesus, again, directly states that the wicked and the righteous will be together until the very end. What the wicked go through, the righteous go through. What the righteous go through, the wicked go through.

talmidim
Jul 16th 2008, 06:16 PM
Jesus did say His followers would undergo persecution, then "the end" would come, then the coming of the Son of Man, then the "gathering of the elect."

Jesus Himself directly times the "rapture" as taking place after the tribulation.Hi markedward,

I personally don't see it that way. I think He was answering the questions put to Him in the order that they were asked:

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us,


when shall these things be? (The destruction of the Temple)

and what shall be the sign of thy coming,

and of the end of the world?

Not defining the order that they would occur...

talmidim
Jul 16th 2008, 06:18 PM
The Parable of the Weeds
The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?

'An enemy did this,' he replied.


The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'


'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'



Jesus, again, directly states that the wicked and the righteous will be together until the very end. What the wicked go through, the righteous go through. What the righteous go through, the wicked go through.Once again I disagree. Here He was talking about the seed of man and the seed of the serpent, not necessarily the righteous and the unrighteous.

Yankee Candle
Jul 16th 2008, 06:19 PM
"During that tribulation or even the great tribulation.. are you as a born again Christian going to have to undergo and be subject to God's wrath that He pours out on a rebellious planet that rejected Him and followed the father of lies?"

The topic post is in error. The 'last trump' is not the last trumpet that will ever blow but the last trumpet during the age of grace. It is equal to the trump that John heard in Revelation 4:1-2. As soon as he heard that trumpet and a voice calling to him "Come up hither", he was raptured! The connection with I Corinthians 15:52 & I Thessalonians 4:16-17 is obvious.

The last trumpet of the tribulation period is mentioned in Revelation is in chapter 11, after the rapture takes place.

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." No rapture is mentioned there for it has (by that time) already taken place.

talmidim
Jul 16th 2008, 06:22 PM
I'll ask again, do you know the origin of the idiom, 'the Last Trump'?

markedward
Jul 16th 2008, 07:24 PM
when shall these things be? (The destruction of the Temple)

and what shall be the sign of thy coming,

and of the end of the world?

Not defining the order that they would occur...If He was answering them in the order they were asked... why is the final event (before the Coming) the destruction of Jerusalem (and logically, the only part of His response that would include the destruction of the temple)?


Once again I disagree. Here He was talking about the seed of man and the seed of the serpent, not necessarily the righteous and the unrighteous.
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."

He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."



The wheat = The "sons of the kingdom" = "the righteous"
The weeds = The "sons of the evil one" = "all who do evil" (i.e., the wicked)

cwb
Jul 16th 2008, 08:35 PM
I challenge those of the pre-tribulation belief to back up using scripture how the rapture occurs before the tribulation.

Probably an impossible task since you'll shoot down any and every scripture a pre-tribber uses to back up their viewpoint. The same challenge could be made to you concerning your viewpoint (whatever viewpoint that is) and it would be an impossible task. The one making the challenge would shoot down every scripture you gave and say "it doesn't mean that".

Literalist-Luke
Jul 16th 2008, 08:59 PM
During that tribulation or even the great tribulation.. are you as a born again Christian going to have to undergo and be subject to God's wrath that He pours out on a rebellious planet that rejected Him and followed the father of lies?Your question is the result of a faulty understanding of the Post-Trib Rapture. The Tribulation and the Day of the Lord are not the same thing. The 2nd Coming/Rapture occurs immediately after the Tribulation, and the Day of the Lord comes after the 2nd Coming/Rapture. So no, a post-trib Rapture does not have the saints enduring one second of God's wrath.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 16th 2008, 09:03 PM
And what was Abraham's conversation with Him about, if not to separate the righteous from the wicked in the face of His wrath?The Post-Trib Rapture does separate the righteous from the wicked prior to His wrath. The Tribulation is followed by the 2nd Coming/Rapture, which is followed in turn by the Day of the Lord.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 16th 2008, 09:08 PM
Hi markedward,

I personally don't see it that way. I think He was answering the questions put to Him in the order that they were asked:

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us,


when shall these things be? (The destruction of the Temple)

and what shall be the sign of thy coming,

and of the end of the world?

Not defining the order that they would occur...Luke 21:25-28 - "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Sounds pretty chronological to me.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 16th 2008, 09:09 PM
Once again I disagree. Here He was talking about the seed of man and the seed of the serpent, not necessarily the righteous and the unrighteous.Then perhaps you'd be good enough to explain what they do mean if not the righteous and the wicked?

theleast
Jul 16th 2008, 09:09 PM
Hello my friend. I am curious. Do you know where the term, 'the last trump' came from? Here's a hint: 1st Corinthians was written many years before the book of the Revelation.


That is absolutly not true.

And even if it was, the truth has never been altered from beginning to end.

theleast
Jul 16th 2008, 09:10 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------
One question for you......

During that tribulation or even the great tribulation.. are you as a born again Christian going to have to undergo and be subject to God's wrath that He pours out on a rebellious planet that rejected Him and followed the father of lies?

No, the rapture is after the seventh trumpet but before the seven vials.

theleast
Jul 16th 2008, 09:14 PM
No rapture is mentioned there for it has (by that time) already taken place.




That is an assumption. Just because a rapture isn't mentioned doesn't mean it has already taken place.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 16th 2008, 09:14 PM
The 'last trump' is not the last trumpet that will ever blow but the last trumpet during the age of grace. It is equal to the trump that John heard in Revelation 4:1-2. As soon as he heard that trumpet and a voice calling to him "Come up hither", he was raptured! The connection with I Corinthians 15:52 & I Thessalonians 4:16-17 is obvious.Revelation 4:1 - "...the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet..."

PLEASE don't start reading things into Scripture that are simply not there. John heard no trumpet here. He heard a VOICE.

In addition, when John goes up to heaven at the beginning of Revelation 4 to observe his visions, the Pre-Tribulational Rapture would have already happened! Contrary to an unfortunately popular teaching that has no basis in literal interpretation, John's “coming up” to heaven has no connection whatsoever with the Rapture. He is going up to heaven to observe the contents of the vision he was given, not to participate in the Rapture. Notice that he finds the 24 elders already there. The vast majority of Pre-Tribulationists take the 24 elders to be the Raptured Church, so if John's arrival is to be taken as representing the Rapture, then he's late! It would be nice to be able to point to this as an indicator in favor of a Pre-Trib rapture, but to do so would require an allegorical interpretation that cannot be scripturally supported.
The last trumpet of the tribulation period is mentioned in Revelation is in chapter 11, after the rapture takes place.

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." No rapture is mentioned there for it has (by that time) already taken place.You are correct, by the time of the seventh trumpet, the Post-Tribulational Rapture has already taken place.

theleast
Jul 16th 2008, 09:15 PM
Probably an impossible task since you'll shoot down any and every scripture a pre-tribber uses to back up their viewpoint. The same challenge could be made to you concerning your viewpoint (whatever viewpoint that is) and it would be an impossible task. The one making the challenge would shoot down every scripture you gave and say "it doesn't mean that".

It says last trump.

How can you argue that?

Literalist-Luke
Jul 16th 2008, 09:16 PM
I'll ask again, do you know the origin of the idiom, 'the Last Trump'?I assume you're about to enlighten us about the Feast of Trumpets? That does not prove Pre-Trib. It only prevents Revelation 11 from proving a post-trib Rapture. There are plenty of other proofs of a Post-Trib Rapture.

theleast
Jul 16th 2008, 09:16 PM
Luke 21:25-28 - "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Sounds pretty chronological to me.

Good post Literalist Luke.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 16th 2008, 09:18 PM
Probably an impossible task since you'll shoot down any and every scripture a pre-tribber uses to back up their viewpoint. The same challenge could be made to you concerning your viewpoint (whatever viewpoint that is) and it would be an impossible task. The one making the challenge would shoot down every scripture you gave and say "it doesn't mean that".II Thessalonians 1:6-10 - "He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you."

Literalist-Luke
Jul 16th 2008, 09:21 PM
That is an assumption. Just because a rapture isn't mentioned doesn't mean it has already taken place.Actually, Yankee Candle is correct, the Post-Trib Rapture has already occurred by the time the seventh trumpet is sounded.

theleast
Jul 16th 2008, 09:33 PM
Actually, Yankee Candle is correct, the Post-Trib Rapture has already occurred by the time the seventh trumpet is sounded.

I am under the impression the seventh trumpet heralds 2 things.

First the Rapture.

Second the seven vials.

In that order...;).

Yankee Candle
Jul 16th 2008, 09:51 PM
Revelation 4:1 - "...the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet..."

PLEASE don't start reading things into Scripture that are simply not there. John heard no trumpet here. He heard a VOICE.

In addition, when John goes up to heaven at the beginning of Revelation 4 to observe his visions, the Pre-Tribulational Rapture would have already happened! Contrary to an unfortunately popular teaching that has no basis in literal interpretation, John's “coming up” to heaven has no connection whatsoever with the Rapture. He is going up to heaven to observe the contents of the vision he was given, not to participate in the Rapture. Notice that he finds the 24 elders already there. The vast majority of Pre-Tribulationists take the 24 elders to be the Raptured Church, so if John's arrival is to be taken as representing the Rapture, then he's late! It would be nice to be able to point to this as an indicator in favor of a Pre-Trib rapture, but to do so would require an allegorical interpretation that cannot be scripturally supported.You are correct, by the time of the seventh trumpet, the Post-Tribulational Rapture has already taken place.

I'm not reading into anything: because of the language of Revelations 4:1-4 there is a definite connection with what was said in I Corinthians 15:52 and I Thessaloians 4:16-17. What John experienced in his personal rapture was but a prelude to what all believers will experience before that terrible hour of darkness that will come on the whole world.

We are told to prepare for that hour because it will come at a time that is unexpected. That cannot be said at ANY TIME after the beginning of that dark hour of tribulation. It can only apply to the time before the last 7 yrs nightmare.

Not only so but see what Jesus told his disciples;

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Luke 21:36.

Escape from what? Obviously the terrible tribulation that he had just described to them!

So while those on earth suffer the cup of His indignation, we as believers will be with the Lord drinking of the cup of salvation as he promised us in the marriage supper of the Lamb!




May God be praised!

cwb
Jul 16th 2008, 09:58 PM
It says last trump.

How can you argue that?

I am not defending pre-trib. I am undecided myself at this point. I was just trying to point out the fact that you are making an unfair challenge. I am 99.999% certain that you will not and are not willing to accept any scripture a pre-tribber might bring forth in this thread.

As far as the trump goes, for you to prove to me that this disproves pre-trib, you would have to prove to me that the trumps in Revelation are speaking about the same trump as the last trump of the church age. Furthermore, you would have to prove to me that the beast in chapter 13 does not come after the seventh trump.

carboy
Jul 16th 2008, 10:03 PM
The sabbath year of the last group of seven sevens on the tenth day of the seventh month, the trumpet of jubilee, in the day of atonement. Leviticus 24:9

Is this the last trump you are asking about?

I'm sorry, I'm not savy at the board and I forget who asked the question " what last trump is Paul speaking of." Or "where did the idea of the last trump come from?"

In Peace,

cwb
Jul 16th 2008, 10:04 PM
II Thessalonians 1:6-10 - "He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you."

Wasn't trying to defend pre-trib. Just wondering your purpose in quoting this scripture.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 16th 2008, 10:16 PM
I'm not reading into anything: because of the language of Revelations 4:1-4 there is a definite connection with what was said in I Corinthians 15:52 and I Thessaloians 4:16-17.You didn't even address my points. John heard a voice, not a trumpet. And if that was the Rapture, then John was late!
What John experienced in his personal rapture was but a prelude to what all believers will experience before that terrible hour of darkness that will come on the whole world."Personal" Rapture? That has as much basis in Scripture as Amillennialists saying there is no millennium.
We are told to prepare for that hour because it will come at a time that is unexpected.What Scripture?
That cannot be said at ANY TIME after the beginning of that dark hour of tribulation. It can only apply to the time before the last 7 yrs nightmare.I assume you're speaking of the "doctrine" of "imminency"? Show me one verse that truly teaches "imminency".
Not only so but see what Jesus told his disciples; "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Luke 21:36.

Escape from what? Obviously the terrible tribulation that he had just described to them!Then why does our redemption not begin to "draw near" until AFTER "these things" happen?
So while those on earth suffer the cup of His indignation, we as believers will be with the Lord drinking of the cup of salvation as he promised us in the marriage supper of the Lamb!Right - after the 2nd Coming/Rapture.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 16th 2008, 10:18 PM
I am 99.999% certain that you will not and are not willing to accept any scripture a pre-tribber might bring forth in this thread.Did it ever occur to you that this might be due to Pre-Trib being a false teaching?????
As far as the trump goes, for you to prove to me that this disproves pre-trib, you would have to prove to me that the trumps in Revelation are speaking about the same trump as the last trump of the church age. Furthermore, you would have to prove to me that the beast in chapter 13 does not come after the seventh trump.The trumpet(s) will not provide conclusive proof one way or the other. Trust me, I spent over a year struggling over the Rapture issue, and the answer never came out of examining anything about trumpets.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 16th 2008, 10:20 PM
Wasn't trying to defend pre-trib. Just wondering your purpose in quoting this scripture.I probably took your post the wrong way - sorry. :D That's what I get for reading posts as fast as my fingers can fly.

This text does provide a pretty strong case for Post-Trib.

theleast
Jul 16th 2008, 10:27 PM
I'm not reading into anything: because of the language of Revelations 4:1-4 there is a definite connection with what was said in I Corinthians 15:52 and I Thessaloians 4:16-17. What John experienced in his personal rapture was but a prelude to what all believers will experience before that terrible hour of darkness that will come on the whole world.

We are told to prepare for that hour because it will come at a time that is unexpected. That cannot be said at ANY TIME after the beginning of that dark hour of tribulation. It can only apply to the time before the last 7 yrs nightmare.

Not only so but see what Jesus told his disciples;

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Luke 21:36.

Escape from what? Obviously the terrible tribulation that he had just described to them!

So while those on earth suffer the cup of His indignation, we as believers will be with the Lord drinking of the cup of salvation as he promised us in the marriage supper of the Lamb!


http://images-partners-tbn.google.com/images?q=tbn:WCZ059Vk3pUmMM:thirtyyorkstreet.com/Silver-cups.jpg



May God be praised!


Spared the seven vials, but not the seven trumpets.

But remember, that is also why the servents of God are sealed. So that they don't suffer during the 5th trumpet for instance...

4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

theleast
Jul 16th 2008, 10:29 PM
I am not defending pre-trib. I am undecided myself at this point. I was just trying to point out the fact that you are making an unfair challenge. I am 99.999% certain that you will not and are not willing to accept any scripture a pre-tribber might bring forth in this thread.

As far as the trump goes, for you to prove to me that this disproves pre-trib, you would have to prove to me that the trumps in Revelation are speaking about the same trump as the last trump of the church age. Furthermore, you would have to prove to me that the beast in chapter 13 does not come after the seventh trump.

I would be happy to take a look at any evidence a pre-tribber provides.

Yet they never seem to be able to provide any.

Also you talk about a church age and an age of grace.....do you have scripture to defend those terms?

talmidim
Jul 16th 2008, 10:45 PM
Thank you brother for sharing your understanding of these matters. But it probably will not surprise you that I don't read the text the same way.
If He was answering them in the order they were asked... why is the final event (before the Coming) the destruction of Jerusalem (and logically, the only part of His response that would include the destruction of the temple)?I don't really follow your logic here. Let me tell you how I read the text. In chapter 23 the Master is reading the scribes, Pharisees and the priests the riot act. He finished by pronouncing a curse on Israel.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Now the disciples had seen some awesome things come to pass when the Master spoke, so they were more than a little concerned. And as they were all leaving the Temple complex, the started going on about the grandeur of the Temple and Jerusalem.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Wow! can you imagine their surprise? The Temple destroyed? That would mean that Jerusalem would be sacked. And that would mean the destruction of Judah! That is when that sinking feeling probably started in the pit of their stomach. And I bet their minds raced through scripture recalling all of the prophecies of destruction. But they were just like us. They didn't know for sure what events would happen in what order. So they asked the person that they came to know was the Son of God.

The first thing they asked about was what He had just said: See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

He prophesied the destruction of the Temple and they asked Him, "when shall these things be?", meaning the end of the Temple, Jerusalem and life as they knew it.

The next thing logical thing to consider was the long prophesied 'day of the Lord' in scripture. They were looking forward to the fulfillment of the prophesies about Him coming in great wrath and exacting His righteous vengeance upon the enemies of Israel. And since they already knew that He was the Lord, they asked, "and what shall be the sign of thy coming,". They knew He was going and they knew He would return to fulfill prophecy.

The popular interpretation of prophecy concerning the Messiah included His reign from Jerusalem that brought peace to the world until its end. So their next question was, "and (what shall be the sign of) the end of the world?"

This was the order that they asked the questions and consequently, it was the order that He answered them. And it probably does reflect the order of the events. The Temple has been destroyed when Jerusalem was sacked by Titus. The next two events (His return in triumph over the nations and the end of the world) are obviously yet to come.


The Parable of the Weeds Explained
Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."

He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."

The wheat = The "sons of the kingdom" = "the righteous"
The weeds = The "sons of the evil one" = "all who do evil" (i.e., the wicked)
Or you could take Him at His word and
the wheat =sons of the evil one
the tares = sons of the kingdom

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

The only difference between our interpretations is whether you interpret children of the wicked one; are literal. I think He clear it up nicely in the next verse when He said, 'The enemy that sowed them is the devil'. Yup. He meant literally seed of the devil.

Be blessed,
Phillip

wpm
Jul 16th 2008, 10:58 PM
"Personal" Rapture? That has as much basis in Scripture as Amillennialists saying there is no millennium.

What Amil here believes in no millennium? We believe in an intra-Advent millennium. You misunderstand the designation - it refers to no literal 1,000 yrs millennium, not no millennium.

Paul

wpm
Jul 16th 2008, 11:03 PM
The sabbath year of the last group of seven sevens on the tenth day of the seventh month, the trumpet of jubilee, in the day of atonement. Leviticus 24:9

Is this the last trump you are asking about?

I'm sorry, I'm not savy at the board and I forget who asked the question " what last trump is Paul speaking of." Or "where did the idea of the last trump come from?"

In Peace,

There is only one last trumpet, it means final trumpet - it sounds at Christ's climactic return. In Scripture we learn that the Coming of the Lord is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet. Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:30-31, “they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

We need to interpret Scripture with Scripture.

1Thessalonians 4:15-16 says, “For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.”

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 describes a ‘last trump’ saying, “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

By clear implication, if the last trump relates to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. In the light of the explicit teaching and consistent pattern relating to the last trump elsewhere in the New Testament, and in order for our viewpoint to be true, accurate, compatible and complete (and all truth must fulfil this demanding criteria), the last trumpet in Revelation – number seven – must be a clear, vivid picture of the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Notwithstanding, when the Bible student carefully analyses the graphic descriptive detail of the seventh trumpet in Revelation in the light of other like Scripture he is left in no doubt to its subject matter and its startling cohesion with other prophetic readings. Only a blinkered eschatology student could deny that the last trumpet outlined in Revelation 10 is anything other that the same last trumpet outlined in other New Testament passages and a beautiful symbolic picture of the one final glorious Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 10:1-11 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming. We will the symbolism shortly.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

Scripture fits perfectly.

Paul

Yankee Candle
Jul 16th 2008, 11:13 PM
You didn't even address my points. John heard a voice, not a trumpet. And if that was the Rapture, then John was late!"Personal" Rapture? That has as much basis in Scripture as Amillennialists saying there is no millennium.What Scripture?I assume you're speaking of the "doctrine" of "imminency"? Show me one verse that truly teaches "imminency".Then why does our redemption not begin to "draw near" until AFTER "these things" happen?Right - after the 2nd Coming/Rapture.

I didn't need to address it because what John saw was a vision and his language is such that it leads us to what Paul taught about the rapture.

Why make a point that John was 'late'? This vision happened to him 1,900 yrs ago. It was just a prelude to what we will experience. As far as the 24 elders are concerned(?) we really don't know for certain who they are. What happened to John was like a type and/or symbol for the yet future rapture just like what happened to Enoch who 'was not, for God took him' a type of the rapture before the great destruction of the flood.

John was caught up 'immediately' to heaven. That is exactly what is described in I Corinthians 15 "in twinkling of an eye".

"imminency"? No problem. "Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." Luke 12:40.

If He returns for us at an hour that we are not expecting him then what will be the conditions in the world at that time? Hint: a time like it was before Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated in 1914 which sparked the flame of WW I; relative peace in the world. Men will be eating, drinking, and giving in marriage, not hiding in caves and just trying to survive all the darkness and bloodshed.

"Then why does our redemption not begin to 'draw near' until AFTER 'these things' happen?Right"

Examine what 'after' means in this context and you will have the right answer. The 2nd coming of Christ is in two stages just like the appearing of Christ to mankind happens in two stages: the first advent and the second advent. The Old Testament brings forth both the coming of the Messiah as a suffering servant, rejected, and one who sheds His blood for the people...and yet it also teaches that Christ would come as acceptable, popular, and as King who will sit on the throne of David.

Well, which of the two above 'comings' was the true one? Answer: Both.

Now, the New Testament tells us that Christ will return (a) in a time unexpected, a time when men shall say "Peace and Safety", and business as usual in which men are eating, drinking, and giving in marriage. BUT, it also teaches that Christ will (b) return during a time of war, bloodshed, darkness, gloominess, chaos, and a time when mankind is about to be wiped out because so many have died.

NOW, which of the above scenario's is true? Will Jesus come at a time of peace or during a time of chaos, warfare, and bloodshed? One cannot have both at the same time. Which is it?

Answer: both. He will come for His people first, take them out, and then the heavenly Father will pour out His wrath for seven years before He decides to send Jesus on His great white horse for judgment.

If indeed our Lord will come "as a thief in the night" then such a description demands a scenario in which He will come quietly (as a thief breaks into a house by stealth and takes what he wants quietly) and then the noise comes.

Believers who (get saved during the trib) are taken at the end of the tribulation to meet with Christ in Jerusalem and the wicked taken to hell. They are the ones who will re-populate the earth because Christ will return to earth in Jerusalem (Zechariah say so) and establish His kingdom. There will be no yo-yo rapture at the end of the trib. because the saints will have been with Him already for seven years and they will come with him at the visible 2nd coming (the 2nd stage).

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints." Jude 14.






Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

cwb
Jul 17th 2008, 12:40 AM
The trumpet(s) will not provide conclusive proof one way or the other. Trust me, I spent over a year struggling over the Rapture issue, and the answer never came out of examining anything about trumpets.

I agree. That's the point i was trying to make.

WELL
Jul 17th 2008, 12:45 AM
The Parable of the Weeds
The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?

'An enemy did this,' he replied.


The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'


'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'



Jesus, again, directly states that the wicked and the righteous will be together until the very end. What the wicked go through, the righteous go through. What the righteous go through, the wicked go through.

This to my mind is the best post so far in this thread!

Jesus said it so clearly, but people need to go on and on.

Read it again, and again, and again, and may you find peace!

carboy
Jul 17th 2008, 02:35 AM
I believe my comment on the trumpet of jubilee wasn't taken in the context of the question I was trying to answer. The question was about Paul speaking of the last trump before revelation was written, where did he come up with the last trump?

Paul did not go beyond what was written, the old is in the new revealed and somehow, I'm not saying I know, but somehow the year of jubilee and the trumpet is fulfilled in the second coming. In apocalyptic literature we have the element of time. As we get closer to the object the object becomes clearer, as the curtain rises we see more of the picture.

The book of Revelation has sevens and subsets of seven as does the battle of Jericho, even silence josh 6:10, rev 8:1 "And when he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven.".. and other places in scripture display sevens such as the year of jubilee. I find it interesting.

I'm not sure what all your answer was about but I only intended to answer one mans question.

In Peace.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 17th 2008, 03:15 AM
What Amil here believes in no millennium? We believe in an intra-Advent millennium. You misunderstand the designation - it refers to no literal 1,000 yrs millennium, not no millennium.

PaulI knew was soon as I clicked on "Submit Reply" that I was askin' fer trouble. ;)

theleast
Jul 17th 2008, 03:48 AM
The sabbath year of the last group of seven sevens on the tenth day of the seventh month, the trumpet of jubilee, in the day of atonement. Leviticus 24:9

Is this the last trump you are asking about?

I'm sorry, I'm not savy at the board and I forget who asked the question " what last trump is Paul speaking of." Or "where did the idea of the last trump come from?"

In Peace,

I am talking about the last trump before the coming of Christ.

quiet dove
Jul 17th 2008, 03:49 AM
1 Corinthians 15:52 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1%20Corinthians+ 15:52&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1%20Corinthians+ 15&version=9)
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This verse right here clearly defines that after the seventh and final trumpet, that is when the rapture occurs. Not before the first trumpet, not somewhere in the middle, but only after the seventh trumpet.

I challenge those of the pre-tribulation belief to back up using scripture how the rapture occurs before the tribulation.

Where in scripture does it teach that seventh trumpet equates to the same as last trumpet? Is that not basically assumption?

theleast
Jul 17th 2008, 03:51 AM
Where in scripture does it teach that seventh trumpet equates to the same as last trumpet? Is that not basically assumption?

No because there are only seven trumpets in revelation...

There the seven angels with the seven trumpets. So the seventh has to be the last one.

2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. 6And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

wpm
Jul 17th 2008, 03:52 AM
I knew was soon as I clicked on "Submit Reply" that I was askin' fer trouble. ;)

Well you should have ammended that error when you realised your mistake. ;)

Paul

quiet dove
Jul 17th 2008, 05:11 AM
No because there are only seven trumpets in revelation...

There the seven angels with the seven trumpets. So the seventh has to be the last one.

2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. 6And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

I understand that, but so many here keep asking me for a passage that specifically says this or that. Figured that logic should be applied across the board, so to speak. Or where is it taught in scripture that a trumpet sound can announce more than one thing at a time. Or a trumpet announcing judgment can be the same trumpet that calls Christ people to Him? If the way to interpret scripture is with scripture, as many say is the correct way, it should be in there somewhere?

Firstfruits
Jul 17th 2008, 09:13 AM
Where in scripture does it teach that seventh trumpet equates to the same as last trumpet? Is that not basically assumption?

Does Jesus return at the following scripturs?

1 Cor 15:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thess 4:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

If they are not the same then how many times does Jesus return?

Firstfruits

carboy
Jul 17th 2008, 12:10 PM
Thank you phaeton426.

I believe it was Talmidim who was asking about the "last trump" origination.

Anyway the book of Revelation is rooted in the old testament. I thought Talmidim was carefully asking a question to bring in the old so as to illuminate the new. I may have misunderstood.


Posting on this subject seems to be so focused on the new testament without digging into the old. All scripture means all scripture. Without the old there is no new.

In Peace

resbmc
Jul 17th 2008, 12:40 PM
what is all this about God's wrath, have to do with the rapture, if the rapture is at the 7th trumpet, God's wrath does not start till AFTER the 7th trumpet, the 7 bowls of wrath, dont see how you can argue God's wrath and try to relate it to the rapture.

theleast
Jul 17th 2008, 12:43 PM
Thank you phaeton426.

I believe it was Talmidim who was asking about the "last trump" origination.

Anyway the book of Revelation is rooted in the old testament. I thought Talmidim was carefully asking a question to bring in the old so as to illuminate the new. I may have misunderstood.


Posting on this subject seems to be so focused on the new testament without digging into the old. All scripture means all scripture. Without the old there is no new.

In Peace

Ah I see, yes there are all sorts of old testament prophecies that are related to revelation.

cwb
Jul 17th 2008, 12:43 PM
what is all this about God's wrath, have to do with the rapture, if the rapture is at the 7th trumpet, God's wrath does not start till AFTER the 7th trumpet, the 7 bowls of wrath, dont see how you can argue God's wrath and try to relate it to the rapture.

Yep, and when is the anti-christ revealed? Before the seventh trumpet of after the seventh trumpet?

theleast
Jul 17th 2008, 12:48 PM
what is all this about God's wrath, have to do with the rapture, if the rapture is at the 7th trumpet, God's wrath does not start till AFTER the 7th trumpet, the 7 bowls of wrath, dont see how you can argue God's wrath and try to relate it to the rapture.

That is not entirely true.

Take a look at this verse...


3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Doesn't sound like fun.

14Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

15And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. 18By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

A whole third part of men by the sixth trump. Sounds like tribulation to lose a third part of men.

4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

And the two olive braches smite the earth with plagues. That's probably not going to be fun.

Sounds like all those things leading up to the seventh trumpet are tribulation to me.

theleast
Jul 17th 2008, 12:48 PM
Yep, and when is the anti-christ revealed? Before the seventh trumpet of after the seventh trumpet?

There is no singular anti-christ.

That is a fallacy as well. The first beast has 10 horns, and the second has 2.

Not one.

cwb
Jul 17th 2008, 12:55 PM
There is no singular anti-christ.

That is a fallacy as well. The first beast has 10 horns, and the second has 2.

Not one.

Which one comes before the seventh trumpet and which one comes after the seventh trumpet?

theleast
Jul 17th 2008, 12:56 PM
I understand that, but so many here keep asking me for a passage that specifically says this or that. Figured that logic should be applied across the board, so to speak. Or where is it taught in scripture that a trumpet sound can announce more than one thing at a time. Or a trumpet announcing judgment can be the same trumpet that calls Christ people to Him? If the way to interpret scripture is with scripture, as many say is the correct way, it should be in there somewhere?

I guess you can call that logic, but it isn't a logic which requires any kind of real digging. Seven trumpets, last trumpet is number seven.

You can use scripture to help interpret scripture. My point is that the pre-tribulation doctrine has NO scripture to prove that doctrine.

I notice that the pretribulation crowd is not providing the scripture that I asked for. Scripture that backs up the pre-tribulation doctrine.

They have instead resorted to posting scripture (if they post any at all) that is an attempt to disprove post-trib doctrine or mid-trib doctrine. And the scripture that they provide there is shaky at best, and is far outweighed by the doctrine that flat out says the final trumpet heralds Christs return.

cwb
Jul 17th 2008, 01:04 PM
I guess you can call that logic, but it isn't a logic which requires any kind of real digging. Seven trumpets, last trumpet is number seven.

You can use scripture to help interpret scripture. My point is that the pre-tribulation doctrine has NO scripture to prove that doctrine.

I notice that the pretribulation crowd is not providing the scripture that I asked for. Scripture that backs up the pre-tribulation doctrine.

They have instead resorted to posting scripture (if they post any at all) that is an attempt to disprove post-trib doctrine or mid-trib doctrine. And the scripture that they provide there is shaky at best, and is far outweighed by the doctrine that flat out says the final trumpet heralds Christs return.

I am pan trib at the moment. I just have to say I can't see what you have proven either. I see your point about the seventh trumpet to be very shaky at best. Prove to me that the tribulation does not start after the seventh trumpet. Prove to me that the tribulation is over when the seventh trupet blows. When I read Revelation, it seems to me that both beasts come after the seventh trumpet.

theleast
Jul 17th 2008, 01:05 PM
I am pan trib at the moment. I just have to say I can't see what you have proven either. I see your point about the seventh trumpet to be very shaky at best. Prove to me that the tribulation does not start after the seventh trumpet. Prove to me that the tribulation is over when the seventh trupet blows. When I read Revelation, it seems to me that both beasts come after the seventh trumpet.

My goodness I just did, did you not see the post where a third part of men are slain at the sixth trumpet?

Is that not tribulation?

The beasts are already here but that is another thread.

And there are seven vials after the seven trumpets.

cwb
Jul 17th 2008, 01:12 PM
My goodness I just did, did you not see the post where a third part of men are slain at the sixth trumpet?

Is that not tribulation?

The beasts are already here but that is another thread.

And there are seven vials after the seven trumpets.


How does that prove anything? There has been tribulation since the first century. We are talking about the great tribulation not just any tribualation. Not only that, You also have not proven that the tribuatation is finished by the seventh trumpets. Still looks to to me that the beasts come after the seventh trumpet.

cwb
Jul 17th 2008, 01:15 PM
I challenge those of the pre-tribulation belief to back up using scripture how the rapture occurs before the tribulation.

So far in this thread it looks to me that you are asking pre-tribbers to do what you can't do yourself for your viewpoint.

theleast
Jul 17th 2008, 01:21 PM
How does that prove anything? There has been tribulation since the first century. We are talking about the great tribulation not just any tribualation. Not only that, You also have not proven that the tribuatation is finished by the seventh trumpets. Still looks to to me that the beasts come after the seventh trumpet.

There are what 7 billion people on the world today? 8 billion? I lost count.

Lets say it's only 6 billion, have 2 billion people EVER been killed before? If 2 billion people died would you not account THAT to tribulation? If you don't think 2 billion people dying at once is a great tribulation then I don't know what you will.

theleast
Jul 17th 2008, 01:22 PM
So far in this thread it looks to me that you are asking pre-tribbers to do what you can't do yourself for your viewpoint.

I have and did.

Firstfruits
Jul 17th 2008, 01:26 PM
I am pan trib at the moment. I just have to say I can't see what you have proven either. I see your point about the seventh trumpet to be very shaky at best. Prove to me that the tribulation does not start after the seventh trumpet. Prove to me that the tribulation is over when the seventh trupet blows. When I read Revelation, it seems to me that both beasts come after the seventh trumpet.

Does Jesus return at the following scripturs?

1 Cor 15:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thess 4:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

If they are not the same then how many times does Jesus return?

According to scripture, judgment the time that the dead are judged, is at the seventh trumpet. When does Jesus return to reward every man according to their works?

Firstfruits

cwb
Jul 17th 2008, 01:29 PM
There are what 7 billion people on the world today? 8 billion? I lost count.

Lets say it's only 6 billion, have 2 billion people EVER been killed before? If 2 billion people died would you not account THAT to tribulation? If you don't think 2 billion people dying at once is a great tribulation then I don't know what you will.

You still have not proven that the beasts do not come after that.

John146
Jul 17th 2008, 01:35 PM
I didn't need to address it because what John saw was a vision and his language is such that it leads us to what Paul taught about the rapture.

Why make a point that John was 'late'? This vision happened to him 1,900 yrs ago. It was just a prelude to what we will experience. As far as the 24 elders are concerned(?) we really don't know for certain who they are. What happened to John was like a type and/or symbol for the yet future rapture just like what happened to Enoch who 'was not, for God took him' a type of the rapture before the great destruction of the flood.

John was caught up 'immediately' to heaven. That is exactly what is described in I Corinthians 15 "in twinkling of an eye". What is described in 1 Cor 15 is a PHYSICAL change that will occur to our bodies and we will then be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. What happened with John was a spiritual event. He was not physically caught up to heaven. He had a VISION. He was taken up to heaven in a spiritual sense. Physically, he was still on the earth. Comparing Rev 4 to the resurrection and rapture is not valid.

cwb
Jul 17th 2008, 01:36 PM
I have and did.

I know you think you have. Fact is you have not. Some pre-tribbers probably think they have done the same. For sure not to your satisfaction. At the same time, you have not proven anything to me to my satisfaction as of yet. If you haven't proven anything to me who is pan-trib, you surely haven't proven anything to anybody who is pre-trib. Surely you can do better than you have to this point. Again I'll ask. Prove to me that the beasts in Rev 13 come before the seventh trumpet in Rev. 11. It seems illogical to me that something two chapter later came before something two chapters earlier.

theleast
Jul 17th 2008, 02:03 PM
You still have not proven that the beasts do not come after that.

That is an entirely different thread. That would force us to define the beasts, and prove whether or not they are already in existence or yet to come. I want to stick to the topic I posted instead of chasing a red herring.

So do you have scripture to back up pre-trib doctrine?

cwb
Jul 17th 2008, 02:09 PM
That is an entirely different thread. That would force us to define the beasts, and prove whether or not they are already in existence or yet to come. I want to stick to the topic I posted instead of chasing a red herring.

So do you have scripture to back up pre-trib doctrine?

I already told you I am not pre-trib at the moment. I am pan-trib. I have not fully decided my position. I know you keep telling me that proving that that Rev 13 comes before Rev 11 is another thread. However till you prove that to me, your premise in this thread concerning the seventh trumpet proves nothing.

theleast
Jul 17th 2008, 02:12 PM
I already told you I am not pre-trib at the moment. I am pan-trib. I have not fully decided my position. I know you keep telling me that proving that that Rev 13 comes before Rev 11 is another thread. However till you prove that to me, your premise in this thread concerning the seventh trumpet proves nothing.

Alrighty then start you thread about the beasts, ask the questions that YOU want answered and I will show you the proper respect in your thread and answer your questions there.

Edit: what the heck is pan-trib anyway?

cwb
Jul 17th 2008, 02:24 PM
Alrighty then start you thread about the beasts, ask the questions that YOU want answered and I will show you the proper respect in your thread and answer your questions there.

Edit: what the heck is pan-trib anyway?

All I am saying is that what you said in your original post of this thread (that the seventh trump disproves pre-trib) becomes null and void until you can prove that Rev 13 comes before Rev 11. According to your original post, you proving that belongs in this thread.

"pan" stands for "it will all pan out in the end". I am undecided at this point. I use to be pre-trib and have posted in this forum for about a year in favor of pre-trib. Right now I see the more important thing being that I Thess 4:17 is going to happen. I see the fact that the rapture is going to happen as being more important than the timing of when it will happen. I feel every viewpoint should follow the admonition in I Thess 4:18.

theleast
Jul 17th 2008, 02:31 PM
All I am saying is that what you said in your original post of this thread (that the seventh trump disproves pre-trib) becomes null and void until you can prove that Rev 13 comes before Rev 11. According to your original post, you proving that belongs in this thread.

"pan" stands for "it will all pan out in the end". I am undecided at this point. I use to be pre-trib and have posted in this forum for about a year in favor of pre-trib. Right now I see the more important thing being that I Thess 4:17 is going to happen. I see the fact that the rapture is going to happen as being more important than the timing of when it will happen. I feel every viewpoint should follow the admonition in I Thess 4:18.

I am not going to define the beasts in this thread it will derail it, which I think is your goal.

Notice this however...

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The red words show that a trumpet heralds his coming.

The green words show that it is a "rapture".

It's important to show not when in time, but when in order because the pre-trib doctrine is a source of confusion, and some will be led astray by it.

Partaker of Christ
Jul 17th 2008, 02:36 PM
We are told to prepare for that hour because it will come at a time that is unexpected. That cannot be said at ANY TIME after the beginning of that dark hour of tribulation. It can only apply to the time before the last 7 yrs nightmare.

Not only so but see what Jesus told his disciples;

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Luke 21:36.

Escape from what? Obviously the terrible tribulation that he had just described to them!


They way of escape does not have to mean 'raptured'

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

I think it could mean that we are not 'snared' by the events.

cwb
Jul 17th 2008, 02:41 PM
I am not going to define the beasts in this thread it will derail it, which I think is your goal.



I never asked you to define the beasts. I asked you to show me that they precede the seventh trump. That request does not derail this thread. It seems you me the premise in your original post is that the seventh trump disproves the a pre-trib rapture. You have not as of yet proved your original premise in this thread.

It is certainly not my goal to derail this thread. It annoys me also when people do that. I am sticking with what you said in your original post. You said in your original post that the seventh trumpet disproves a pre-trib rapture. I merely asked you to prove to me that it does. It seem that since you can't do that you are accussing me of trying to derail a thread when what I am asking goes right along with the original post.

John146
Jul 17th 2008, 02:44 PM
I know you think you have. Fact is you have not. Some pre-tribbers probably think they have done the same. For sure not to your satisfaction. At the same time, you have not proven anything to me to my satisfaction as of yet. If you haven't proven anything to me who is pan-trib, you surely haven't proven anything to anybody who is pre-trib. Surely you can do better than you have to this point. Again I'll ask. Prove to me that the beasts in Rev 13 come before the seventh trumpet in Rev. 11. It seems illogical to me that something two chapter later came before something two chapters earlier.In Revelation 12, it speaks of the birth of Christ and the ascension of Christ. Did those things happen after the seventh trumpet?

theleast
Jul 17th 2008, 02:49 PM
I never asked you to define the beasts. I asked you to show me that they precede the seventh trump. That request does not derail this thread. It seems you me the premise in your original post is that the seventh trump disproves the a pre-trib rapture. You have not as of yet proved your original premise in this thread.

It is certainly not my goal to derail this thread. It annoys me also when people do that. I am sticking with what you said in your original post. You said in your original post that the seventh trumpet disproves a pre-trib rapture. I merely asked you to prove to me that it does. It seem that since you can't do that you are accussing me of trying to derail a thread when what I am asking goes right along with the original post.

In order to prove that the beasts are in place already during the trumpets requires a definition which will derail this thread. Feel free to create a thread on that subject and I will happily partake in it.

The premise of this thread is proven by the scripture...

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

How do you understand this scripture.

Red shows it is the last trumpet.

Green shows the rapture.

Why do people feel the need to add confusion to that which is plain?

theleast
Jul 17th 2008, 02:49 PM
In Revelation 12, it speaks of the birth of Christ and the ascension of Christ. Did those things happen after the seventh trumpet?

Excellent point.

cwb
Jul 17th 2008, 03:59 PM
In Revelation 12, it speaks of the birth of Christ and the ascension of Christ. Did those things happen after the seventh trumpet?

Your question in no way proves that Rev 13 prededes Rev. 11

John146
Jul 17th 2008, 04:02 PM
Your question in no way proves that Rev 13 prededes Rev. 11I didn't say that it did. The point I'm making is that you can't insist that the chapters following Revelation 11 must follow the events of Revelation 11 chronologically, since Revelation 12 obviously doesn't. You said "It seems illogical to me that something two chapter later came before something two chapters earlier.". Does it seem illogical to you that the birth and ascension of Christ happens before the seventh trumpet which is mentioned a chapter earlier?

cwb
Jul 17th 2008, 04:03 PM
In order to prove that the beasts are in place already during the trumpets requires a definition which will derail this thread. Feel free to create a thread on that subject and I will happily partake in it.

The premise of this thread is proven by the scripture...

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

How do you understand this scripture.

Red shows it is the last trumpet.

Green shows the rapture.

Why do people feel the need to add confusion to that which is plain?

Since after numerous requests from me for you to prove that Rev 13 precedes Rev 11, you have not even made an attempt to do so, I am going to have to take it as, you can't prove it. Hence I see your original post in this thread as holding no water.

talmidim
Jul 17th 2008, 04:24 PM
Hello All,

I'm sorry I have been away from the discussion for so long. Well not that long, but it doesn't have to be a long time for a discussion like this to run amuck. :D I say that with all affection.

So many people ignore or miss the symbols and their definitions provided in scripture. And man did not conceive the plan of redemption or inspire scripture. Our unsearchable Father did. So it just might be a little more complicated than we allow.

I originally asked, "Do you know where the term, 'the last trump' came from?" And I did so to see if anyone would incorporate any Hebraic context into their responses. My estimate was that they would be a precious few and I wasn't disappointed. So I thought I would add the following to the mix.

Scripture teaches that the Tabernacle is a faithful witness to the Temple of our Father in heaven. And that the Temple service represents actual events in heaven. So how many of you have looked to the Temple and it's service to help understand the symbology of the book of the Revelation of the Risen Messiah or to explain His teachings concerning the harvest? Or should I say harvests, because there are three, not one in scripture and in Israel.

I have heard many declare that the OT is 'the Law' and has been done away with. But I know that the Temple in heaven still stands. And the heavenly Temple service continues. So shouldn't I look to His Word to explain what I cannot? And not just the NT. Because the Master quoted exclusively from the OT. And if it's good enough for Him... Well, you get the picture.

There are many here that believe that the Master fulfilled the Spring feasts in His earthly ministry and will fulfill the Fall feasts upon His return. But in truth, He ascended after Firstfruits and before Pentecost. What they tend to miss is that He was here for the barley harvest and not the wheat harvest. At least not physically. And before you start arguing about His Spiritual Presence etc., et. al., please remember that He returns physically and that He fulfills His Appointed Times physically. So what about Pentecost (the wheat harvest)?

I try to use the symbols and definitions provided in scripture to define scripture. We are all familiar with all the parables about wheat and all the historical accounts that involve various harvests. Barley and wheat are very different as grains and are symbolically different in terms of the harvest. And there is another harvest. The fall harvest of fruits and vegetables. And the three mandatory feasts of Yahweh correspond to these three harvests.

Consider the ascension of the Messiah, what some might call a rapture, and what is written about the rapture of the saints in scripture. I always thought it interesting that the dead are not mentioned as such, only the dead in Christ. That seems an important distinction that is missed by most.

Another distinction is that the resurrection of Israel seems to be depicted in scripture as a separate event from the gentiles. And let us not forget the resurrection at the end of the millennium is yet again another event. Wow! It's almost like scripture is talking about three different harvests. And aren't there three harvests in Israel, barley, wheat and fruit? Oh! Wait! Do I believe in scriptural coincidences? Hmmm...

I also find it interesting is that it is the wheat harvest that is spoken of at the end of this age. So in my estimation, there very well could be a barley harvest (y'know, that floats up into the air) that precedes the wheat harvest (at the end of this age) and a fruit harvest at the end of the next (read "millennial") age.

I could go on about the symbology in scripture about seals, trumpets and cups, but that would just stir up more controversy. And I could go on about the three offices of the Messiah and how they correspond to the harvests. Or I could expound on the Appointed Times (the Feasts) of Yah and how they are symbolized in the plan of redemption and the harvests of the souls. But the truth is that most of you don't want to hear it. So I will bow out of this discussion without so much as my first question being answered.

Be blessed in Him. I pray you discover His truth about this matter. Not mine or yours, but His.

In His Love,
Phillip

carboy
Jul 17th 2008, 05:26 PM
Don't go away so quickly. You had one bite and thats more nibble than most interesting points. I did want to know if the trumpet of jubilee was what you where speaking of?

In Peace

wpm
Jul 17th 2008, 05:48 PM
Another distinction is that the resurrection of Israel seems to be depicted in scripture as a separate event from the gentiles.


In the OT the saints were restricted to the nation of Israel, even in conversion. In the NT we have been grafted into the Israeli good olive tree - true Israel. There is neither Jew nor Greek today. Saved or lost, heaven or hell. Nothing further.

Paul

ananias
Jul 17th 2008, 06:00 PM
The last trumpet of the tribulation period is mentioned in Revelation is in chapter 11, after the rapture takes place.

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." No rapture is mentioned there for it has (by that time) already taken place.


http://s62.photobucket.com/albums/h106/Martyrs5/th_P0327370.jpg


Look again - the sounding of the seventh trumpet is sandwiched between (a) the verses describing the martyrdom and subsequent resurrection and removal into heaven of "the two witnesses" of Jesus (Rev.11: 7-14); and (b) the wrath of God being poured out upon the world (verses 16-19).

If you want to understand the BIBLICAL identity of "the two witnesses" of Jesus, then simply compare Zech4: 2-3, 6-7, 9, 14 (Zech 4 is prophetic of the Lord Jesus Christ's church), with Rev.11: 4 and Rev.19: 10c, and you'll begin to understand.

"The two witnesses" of Jesus are martyred by "the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit" (Rev.11: 7) - and this occurs BEFORE their resurrection and removal into heaven (at the time of the sounding of the seventh trumpet).

Whenever the word wrath (translated from the Greek words orge and thumos) appears in the New Testament, the context is the wrath of God coming upon the enemies of Christ and His gospel - the word wrath is NEVER found in the context of the wrath of God coming upon the disciples of Jesus.

However, this IS NOT the case with regard to the words tribulation, affliction, distress, suffering, trouble, etc. The Greek New Testament uses the words thlibo and thlipsis to describe the tribulation of the disciples of Jesus.

THE CONTEXT THESE WORDS ARE FOUND IN:

The word thlibo (tribulation) always appears in the context of the trib of the disciples of Jesus.

The word thlipsis (also meaning tribulation) appears at least 23 times in the context of the trib or affliction of the disciples of Jesus (it’s not necessary to look up all the verses, they’re only given here as a reference):-

Mat.13: 21; (2) Mat.24: 9; (3) Mar.4: 16-17; (4) Joh.16: 33; (5) Act.14: 22; (6) Rom.8: 35; (7) Rom.12: 12; (8) 2Cor.1: 4; (9) 2Cor.1: 8; (10) 2Cor.2: 4; (11) 2Cor.4: 17; (12) 2Cor.7: 4; (13) 2Cor.8: 2; (14) Phil.1: 16; (15) Phil.4: 14; (16) 1Thes.1: 6; (17, 18) 2Thes.1: 4, 6; (19) Jam.1: 27; (20) Rev.1: 9; (21) Rev.2: 22; (22) Rev.7: 14.

Once, the word thlipsis (tribulation) appears in the context of the affliction OF THE ISRAELITES AT THE HAND OF THE EGYPTIANS (during the days of their bondage in Egypt) (Heb.11: 25).

Only twice does the word thlipsis appears in the context of the trib of the enemies of Christ and His gospel at the hand of God:-

1 “Seeing it is a righteous thing with God TO RECOMPENSE tribulation (thlipsis) to them that trouble (thlibo) you; And to you who are troubled (thlibo) rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,” (2Thes.1: 6-7)

2 “Tribulation (Greek: thlipsis) and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;” (Rom.2: 9).

MEGAS THLIPSIS (GREAT TRIBULATION)

There are only THREE verses in the New Testament where the Greek word MEGAS (great) appears with the word thlipsis (tribulation), and it’s very important for us to understand the context of each of these verses:-

Rev.2: 22; Rev.7: 14; and Mat.24: 21-22.

1 In Rev.2: 22, the Lord Jesus warns THE CHRISTIANS at Tyhatira that unless they repent of following the doctrines of the false prophetess Jezebel, He Himself will throw them into great tribulation (Greek: MEGAS THLIPSIS) – and this is AFTER He had acknowledged their love, faith, patience, service and works (Rev.2: 18-23). (The words are translated as “suffer intensely” in the N.I.V, but the King James translates them literally – “great tribulation”).

2 Rev.7: 14 identifies the multitude who had come out from “the great tribulation” (MEGAS THLIPSIS) and had washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

3 In Mat.24: 22 the Lord states that FOR THE ELECT’S sake, the days of the “great tribulation” (MEGAS THLIPSIS – Mat.24: 21) will be shortened. Mat.24: 21, 29 is paralleled in Mar.13: 19, 24.

Luke chapter 21 also parallels Matthew 24, but in Luke 21, Luke uses neither the word thlipsis, nor the word thlibo. Instead, Luke uses the words dioko (persecution) in the context of the persecution of the disciples of Jesus at the hands of the enemies of Christ and His gospel; and the words anagke (distress), sunoche (anguish), and orge (wrath), in the context of the distress and anguish of the enemies of Christ and His gospel, and the wrath of God being poured out upon them.

In Matthew 24, the elect are gathered AFTER the great tribulation.

When we use the words "tribulation" or "great tribulation" to describe the period during which the wrath of God will be poured out upon the world, we ignore the context of the Bible's use of the word "tribulation".

ananias.

ananias
Jul 17th 2008, 06:17 PM
The judgment (the wrath of God being poured out upon the world) will come at the sounding of the seventh trumpet AFTER the martyrdom of the saints at the hand of antichrist - when the seventh trumpet sounds:

The Hebrew word SHABA (Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary word number H7650) means “to be COMPLETE”

This word is the root-word for the Hebrew word shabat (Sabbath) – Strong’s word number H7676 and shib ‛ah (SEVEN) – Strong’s word number 7651.

The Hebrew words for SEVEN and Sabbath, being derived from the Hebrew root-word shaba, signify COMPLETENESS – the seventh day completes the cycle, and the “eighth” day begins a new cycle of seven.

Every seventh day is the Sabbath-day; and according to the Laws God gave to Moses, every seventh year completes a cycle and is a Sabbath-year, and the eighth year marks a new beginning (Leviticus chapter 25). 7 x 7 Sabbath-years completes another cycle, and the fiftieth year (the year of Jubilee) marks the beginning of a new cycle of seven Sabbath-years.

The same goes for the Day of Pentecost (Pente = 50), which marks a new beginning; because it comes the day after the completion of 7 x 7 days counting from the day after Passover, the day our Lord was crucified.

So SEVEN symbolizes COMPLETENESS. Therefore it is surely no accident that the Bible opens with a pattern of seven (the six days of creation and the Sabbath-rest) and closes with a book which is saturated with sevens and cycles of seven – seven Spirits of God, seven golden lamp-stands, seven thunders, seven letters to the seven churches, seven seals, seven trumpets, etc. This shows that the book of Revelation COMPLETES the entire Revelation of God (which was a progressive Revelation, since it began over 1,500 years earlier with the book of Genesis).

Yet there is still more:

The first eight chapters of the book of Genesis follow the first eight perfectly natural divisions of the book; and it is in the SEVENTH division (chapter) of Genesis that we read about God’s judgment for the sins of the world coming upon the world in the form of the flood - the eighth chapter speaks of a new beginning – the ark resting on Mount Ararat, etc. Is this a coincidence? No – and we’ll see why in a moment:

The flood began to be poured out upon the world in the seventh of seven days after Noah had entered the ark (Gen.5: 31; Gen.7: 1-10); and Noah’s father, Lamech (who represents the last generation to have died before the flood) was 777 years old when he died.

Much later on, we read that after the Israelites had marched around the city of Jericho for seven days with seven priests blowing seven trumpets (7,7,7), the city was judged by God at the hand of the Israelites on the seventh day, the seventh time the Israelites had marched around the city, at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (7,7,7 – Joshua 6: 2-5).

And in the same way that in the first book of the Old Testament, we read about God’s judgment for the world’s sins in the SEVENTH chapter and a new beginning in the EIGHTH chapter, so in the first book of the New Testament, the record of God’s judgment for the sins of the world falling upon our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ (Isa.53: 6; 2Cor.5: 21) is recorded in the SEVENTH division of Matthew’s gospel, and the EIGHTH division of Matthew’s gospel is the record of a new beginning – His resurrection from the dead on the EIGHTH day. (The book of Matthew has eight very clear divisions - if anyone asks for the break-down, I'll provide it).


The Bible, as I have already noted, opens with a cycle of seven and closes with a book which is saturated with sevens and cycles of sevens; and in the book of Revelation, Jesus Christ, whose crucifixion is recorded in the seventh division of Matthew’s gospel and whose resurrection from the dead on the eighth day is recorded in the eighth division of Matthew’s gospel, is shown to judge the seventh “head” of a seven-headed “beast” at the opening of the seventh of seven seals, the sounding of the seventh of seven trumpets, and the pouring out of the seventh of seven bowls of God’s wrath (7, 7, 7). (In each case, this judgment is symbolized by “noises, thunderings, lightnings and an earthquake, with the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl of wrath adding another symbol of judgment, namely, hail – see Exo.9: 18).

The actions of “the beast that will rise from the bottomless pit” are recorded in the 6th seal, the 6th trumpet and the 6th bowl of wrath (6,6,6) and his judgment at the hand of Christ is recorded in the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl of wrath (7,7,7).

We are told that the final antichrist (which means “instead of Christ”) will ASCEND from the lowest place – the bottomless pit, but the true Christ will DESCEND from the highest place – the throne of God in the highest heaven, and judge the antichrist – and when this is about to happen, that is, when the SEVENTH trumpet is about to sound, “the mystery of God should be finished (note: COMPLETE), as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.” (Rev.10: 7).

What is so phenomenal about all this, is that patterns like this only come to light when one studies all 66 books of the Bible as a whole – because nowhere in the pages of Biblical scripture does the Bible actually point out these patterns which are inherent in the Biblical scriptures - they remain hidden until someone discovers them – and this example is only one of a number of such hidden patterns – proof of the Divine inspiration of the Biblical scriptures!

God’s Word amazing, majestic and awe-inspiring!

Nevertheless, we shouldn’t become too distracted by these things, so as to take our focus off Jesus – the author and finisher (note: COMPLETER) of our faith – “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And you are COMPLETE in Him, who is the Head of all principality and power,” (Col.2: 9-10).


SHALOM SHABA, SHABA SHALOM!

Andrew

Yankee Candle
Jul 17th 2008, 06:44 PM
"Look again - the sounding of the seventh trumpet is sandwiched between (a) the verses describing the martyrdom and subsequent resurrection and removal into heaven of "the two witnesses" of Jesus (Rev.11: 7-14); and (b) the wrath of God being poured out upon the world (verses 16-19)."

I have been looking again, for nearly forty years. The only rapture in that chapter is the two witnesses. There isn't anything else. Those who 'came out of great tribulation' will be those who get saved DURING the tribulation...that is those who accept Christ during that time and are martyred (not raptured) some of which are beheaded for their testimony. Rev. 20:4. They are among those who will rule and reign with Christ over this world for a thousand years, but they will not be among the survivors who re-populate the earth.

But the rapture of the two witnesses is not the same as the disappearance of Christians at the beginning of the tribulation. Proof:

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

These two witnesses will not vanish from the sight of men in the 'twinkling of an eye" as Paul taught that we Christians will experience it and in fact the rapture of the two preachers will be seen in much the same way that Jesus ascended to heaven in Acts 1.

From Strongs dictionary:

Twinkling: = riph rhipe, hree-pay'
a jerk (of the eye, i.e. (by analogy) an instant):--twinkling.

The 'Tribulation' and 'Great tribulation' are really the same thing describing the same period of time. The 'Great Tribulation' & the "great day of His wrath' Rev. 6:17 are in the same time frame. The difference is only that the chaos, warfare, bloodshed, famine, etc. will increase in magnitude as the clock ticks off the time of that awful 7 year period.

Don't try to put the rapture of the saints in any other time frame than the beginning of that awful time. It won't fly.

Those who don't believe in the pre-trib coming of our Lord for His people are robbing themselves of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) and ignoring the clear teaching of Paul that God's people will be spared the wrath of the tribulation. We will be with Jesus because faithful believers who trusted in Christ will escape that time according to Luke 21:36.



http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg


Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

ananias
Jul 17th 2008, 07:06 PM
"Look again - the sounding of the seventh trumpet is sandwiched between (a) the verses describing the martyrdom and subsequent resurrection and removal into heaven of "the two witnesses" of Jesus (Rev.11: 7-14); and (b) the wrath of God being poured out upon the world (verses 16-19)."

I have been looking again, for nearly forty years. The only rapture in that chapter is the two witnesses. There isn't anything else. Those who 'came out of great tribulation' will be those who get saved DURING the tribulation...that is those who accept Christ during that time and are martyred (not raptured) some of which are beheaded for their testimony. Rev. 20:4. They are among those who will rule and reign with Christ over this world for a thousand years, but they will not be among the survivors who re-populate the earth.

But the rapture of the two witnesses is not the same as the disappearance of Christians at the beginning of the tribulation. Proof:

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

These two witnesses will not vanish from the sight of men in the 'twinkling of an eye" as Paul taught that we Christians will experience it and in fact the rapture of the two preachers will be seen in much the same way that Jesus ascended to heaven in Acts 1.

From Strongs dictionary:

Twinkling: = riph rhipe, hree-pay'
a jerk (of the eye, i.e. (by analogy) an instant):--twinkling.

The 'Tribulation' and 'Great tribulation' are really the same thing describing the same period of time. The 'Great Tribulation' & the "great day of His wrath' Rev. 6:17 are in the same time frame. The difference is only that the chaos, warfare, bloodshed, famine, etc. will increase in magnitude as the clock ticks off the time of that awful 7 year period.

Don't try to put the rapture of the saints in any other time frame than the beginning of that awful time. It won't fly.

Those who don't believe in the pre-trib coming of our Lord for His people are robbing themselves of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) and ignoring the clear teaching of Paul that God's people will be spared the wrath of the tribulation. We will be with Jesus because faithful believers who trusted in Christ will escape that time according to Luke 21:36.



http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


Thanks, Yankee Candle.

Well I really, really hope you're right - but even after what you've said here, the understanding I have of the very scriptures you refer to is different to yours.

So I will have to live my life believing that the Lord will come for His saints AFTER THEIR great tribulation, immediately BEFORE HIS wrath is poured out upon the world - the period of His wrath being something you and many others call "the tribulation" or "the great tribulation".

I'm thankful you've expressed sympathy for those like myself who don't see it the way you do - it isn't easy to live with both (a) the belief that the return of the Lord is near; as well as (b) the belief that He will appear first in the clouds to remove the saints from the world AFTER their great tribulation at the hand of the antichrist.

It would be far easier for me to believe that you are right about a pre-trib rapture - but I can only believe what I believe the Bible says about the matter.

ananias.

cwb
Jul 17th 2008, 07:25 PM
Those who don't believe in the pre-trib coming of our Lord for His people are robbing themselves of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) and ignoring the clear teaching of Paul that God's people will be spared the wrath of the tribulation. We will be with Jesus because faithful believers who trusted in Christ will escape that time according to Luke 21:36.



http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


How are those who don't believe the rapture is pre-trib robbing themselves of the blessed hope? Seems to me they have the same hope as the pre-tribber, just a few years latter.

ananias
Jul 17th 2008, 07:49 PM
How are those who don't believe the rapture is pre-trib robbing themselves of the blessed hope? Seems to me they have the same hope as the pre-tribber, just a few years latter.

Exactly. We STILL have the joy of the knowledge of our salvation. This is something that cannot be taken away from any of us, no matter what we may or may not have to go through before the ressurrection and removal of the saints from the world.

The disciples of Jesus were expecting a Messiah who would lead a victorious army against Israel’s enemies (the Roman Empire). A Messiah who would thereafter take up His throne in Jerusalem and rule all nations with a rod of iron (Ps.2: 9), affording their beloved city and beloved temple the exalted place among the nations, which their understanding of the prophecies regarding the Messiah, had led them to believe they would receive.

Yet when their Messiah came, He told them that He would NOT conquer the Romans – instead, He would be betrayed into the hands of the Romans and be put to death by one of their rulers.

As if that wasn’t bad enough, two or three days before His crucifixion, their Messiah stood outside the temple gates and told them that their beloved city and temple would NOT be exalted among the nations – instead, both would be completely destroyed by the nations.

To crown it all, He then told them that they should not expect to reign with Him over the nations immediately, as they had all expected – instead, a time would come when His disciples would be delivered up to tribulation and killed, and would be hated of all nations for His name’s sake (Mat.24: 9-14); and this they would have to face BEFORE they could reign with Him over the nations – they would have to take up their crosses and follow Him, if they wanted to reign with Him.

Jesus IS the truth (Joh.14: 6). His disciples loved Him (the truth) enough to accept the WHOLE truth, and to accept that WHAT GOD HAS PRE-ORDAINED, HE HAS PRE-ORDAINED.

I'm NOT saying that anyone who believes in a pre-trib rapture does not love the truth enough to accept the whole truth - I'm ONLY saying that it wasn't any easier for Christians of other generations who had to face tribulation at the hand of the enemies of Christ and His gospel - but they, too, had the joy of the knowledge of their salvation - no matter what.

ananias.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 17th 2008, 07:52 PM
Those who don't believe in the pre-trib coming of our Lord for His people are robbing themselves of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) and ignoring the clear teaching of Paul that God's people will be spared the wrath of the tribulation. We will be with Jesus because faithful believers who trusted in Christ will escape that time according to Luke 21:36.The blanket, generalizing statements like this really need to stop. I could just as easily say that pre-tribbers are deluding themselves into believing they'll never had to face the antichrist and are consequently setting themselves up to participate in the "falling away" that Paul speaks of in II Thessalonians 2. So shall we continue taking pot shots at each other, or shall we just dig in the Scriptures and find the Truth?

You keep clinging to Luke 21:36 as if it proves "imminency" when it only proves that Jesus' 2nd Coming will surprise a lot of people, yet you continue to ignore II Thessalonians 1:6-10 and Luke 21:25-28 and don't provide any explanation for how those verses can possibly fit into a Pre-Trib scenario. Are you unable to answer?

cwb
Jul 17th 2008, 09:58 PM
The blanket, generalizing statements like this really need to stop.

Yeah, but they need to stop on all sides. How about the very title of this thread.;)


So shall we continue taking pot shots at each other, or shall we just dig in the Scriptures and find the Truth?


Hopefully dig into scripture.

talmidim
Jul 17th 2008, 10:07 PM
Don't go away so quickly. You had one bite and thats more nibble than most interesting points. I did want to know if the trumpet of jubilee was what you where speaking of?

In PeaceAnd Shalom to you too Carboy,

I am sorry I missed that you were answering my post. I did not intend to be rude. Please forgive me.

In order to understand the 'last trump' you must understand the Temple service. There were both shofars and trumpets blown during various times of the morning and evening service and on the various Appointed Feasts and Fasts of Yahweh. It has nothing to do with the seventh trumpet in the Revelation of our Master. Those trumpets are typified in the book of Numbers as alarms, calls to assemble and calls to battle. This is amply demonstrated in the actions associated with the trumpets in the Revelation.

There is a great deal of information that is held in the symbology of the seals, trumpets and cups. But there is little doubt that they are His judgments. And each is a judgment that is intended for different individual groups. So I doubt the rendering of these items in most of the posts I have read in this thread. I hope you understand what I am saying.

I suggest that you study:

The Temple - Its Ministry and Services (http://philologos.org/__eb-ttms/)

as they were at the time of Christ (http://philologos.org/__eb-ttms/)


by Alfred Edersheim
(http://philologos.org/__eb-ttms/)

(1825-1889)
(http://philologos.org/__eb-ttms/)






If I may, I would also suggest you keep your scriptures open to Leviticus while you read this the first time through and the Revelation the second time through. You might find it interesting.

There is also some interesting information at places like: TEMPLE, ADMINISTRATION AND SERVICE OF at (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=122&letter=T) JewishEncyclopedia.com. But care must be taken that you rightly sift the scriptural truth from the traditions of man.

I am sure you know how to do an internet search to find further information on this topic. I hope the information I posted is helpful.

In His Love,
Phillip

talmidim
Jul 17th 2008, 10:26 PM
In the OT the saints were restricted to the nation of Israel, even in conversion. In the NT we have been grafted into the Israeli good olive tree - true Israel. There is neither Jew nor Greek today. Saved or lost, heaven or hell. Nothing further.

PaulForgive me, I misspoke. I should have said NT believers. It was an ill considered generality. Though I believe you are wrong in your assumption that there is nothing further.

wpm
Jul 17th 2008, 10:41 PM
Forgive me, I misspoke. I should have said NT believers. It was an ill considered generality. Though I believe you are wrong in your assumption that there is nothing further.


Salvation has always been individual. You need again to read the intro to this in Romans 9, you will see that no one was ever saved by nationality - whether Jew or Gentile. We are saved by grace, not race.

Paul

talmidim
Jul 17th 2008, 10:43 PM
Salvation has always been individual. You need again to read the intro to this in Romans 9, you will see that no one was ever saved by nationality - whether Jew or Gentile. We are saved by grace, not race.

PaulPlease do not put words in my mouth. That is not what I was addressing. Good day wpm.

wpm
Jul 17th 2008, 10:44 PM
And Shalom to you too Carboy,

I am sorry I missed that you were answering my post. I did not intend to be rude. Please forgive me.

In order to understand the 'last trump' you must understand the Temple service. There were both shofars and trumpets blown during various times of the morning and evening service and on the various Appointed Feasts and Fasts of Yahweh. It has nothing to do with the seventh trumpet in the Revelation of our Master. Those trumpets are typified in the book of Numbers as alarms, calls to assemble and calls to battle. This is amply demonstrated in the actions associated with the trumpets in the Revelation.

There is a great deal of information that is held in the symbology of the seals, trumpets and cups. But there is little doubt that they are His judgments. And each is a judgment that is intended for different individual groups. So I doubt the rendering of these items in most of the posts I have read in this thread. I hope you understand what I am saying.

I suggest that you study:

The Temple - Its Ministry and Services (http://philologos.org/__eb-ttms/)


as they were at the time of Christ (http://philologos.org/__eb-ttms/)



by Alfred Edersheim (http://philologos.org/__eb-ttms/)

(http://philologos.org/__eb-ttms/)


(1825-1889) (http://philologos.org/__eb-ttms/)

(http://philologos.org/__eb-ttms/)





If I may, I would also suggest you keep your scriptures open to Leviticus while you read this the first time through and the Revelation the second time through. You might find it interesting.

There is also some interesting information at places like: TEMPLE, ADMINISTRATION AND SERVICE OF at (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=122&letter=T) JewishEncyclopedia.com. But care must be taken that you rightly sift the scriptural truth from the traditions of man.

I am sure you know how to do an internet search to find further information on this topic. I hope the information I posted is helpful.

In His Love,
Phillip


I'm sorry but this is simply classic Premil reasoning. The last trump is what it says - the last trump. You can wriggle all you want but it is still the final trumpet. It aligns well with the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture in Revelation. The end is the end and the last day the last day.

Paul

theleast
Jul 18th 2008, 12:33 AM
Since after numerous requests from me for you to prove that Rev 13 precedes Rev 11, you have not even made an attempt to do so, I am going to have to take it as, you can't prove it. Hence I see your original post in this thread as holding no water.

I told you I will not derail my own thread, and I don't appreciette your doing it.

Start your own thread and I will join in it. Either post the scripture I asked for from you, or stop derailing this thread. It is disrespectfull.

theleast
Jul 18th 2008, 01:51 PM
So that's it?

Nobody from the pretribulation group has ANY scripture to back up that doctrine?

vinsight4u8
Jul 18th 2008, 02:00 PM
Your question in no way proves that Rev 13 prededes Rev. 11

John did chs 12-15 before he did 8-11 or ch 16.

The end of ch 11 will not in any way fit with ch 12.

Chapter 11 shows the next set of plagues has been announced. The set of plagues that will end with great hail.

Chs 16-22 are not part of the seals that John saw, but seems to be the little book he ate while he viewed and heard the trumpets at the end of ch 15.

DeafPosttrib
Jul 18th 2008, 02:01 PM
Yankee Candle,

You saying that anyone who do not believe pretrib rapture, they're robbing the blessed hope of Titus 2:13.

That is from Hal Lindsey's quote of Titus 2:13 in his books.

No. all posttribs do believe in the blessed hope of Titus 2:13. I always believe in the blessed hope of Titus 2:13.

What is the 'hope' for? It speaks of eternal life according to Titus 1:2; and 3:7. I tmeans, that our body shall all changed into immortality at Christ's coming, that mean we shall never taste of death, and will have new glorify body like Christ's body, and will have eternal life with Christ at His coming.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

vinsight4u8
Jul 18th 2008, 02:03 PM
So that's it?

Nobody from the pretribulation group has ANY scripture to back up that doctrine?


There isn't any pre-trib or mid trib doctrine in the bible.

When the two witnesses rise - that is the 7th trumpet and the church goes home to heaven because Jesus Christ has come in the air.

vinsight4u8
Jul 18th 2008, 02:10 PM
I am not defending pre-trib. I am undecided myself at this point. I was just trying to point out the fact that you are making an unfair challenge. I am 99.999% certain that you will not and are not willing to accept any scripture a pre-tribber might bring forth in this thread.

As far as the trump goes, for you to prove to me that this disproves pre-trib, you would have to prove to me that the trumps in Revelation are speaking about the same trump as the last trump of the church age. Furthermore, you would have to prove to me that the beast in chapter 13 does not come after the seventh trump.

You start with ch 12 - then read to the end of ch 15 -for only then will John learn about the trumpets were fulfilled.

vinsight4u8
Jul 18th 2008, 02:15 PM
No because there are only seven trumpets in revelation...

There the seven angels with the seven trumpets. So the seventh has to be the last one.

2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. 6And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

What angels does John see in 8:2?


John sees the ones from ch 15!

cwb
Jul 18th 2008, 02:20 PM
So that's it?

Nobody from the pretribulation group has ANY scripture to back up that doctrine?

You're a funny guy. First of all, if I were pre-trib, I wouldn't even bite at your "challenge" since I can tell you are not looking for an answer but are just looking to bash. Secondly, I looked through this thread and have seen at least three posters back up their viewpoint with scripture. I might not agree the scripture they posted to back up their viewpoint. Nevertheless they used scripture to back up their viewpoint. Whether you agree with how they interpret those scriptures is a different story. You making this statement here is absolutely absurd. I think you need to back up and show some respect for your brothers and sisters who are pre-trib. Thirdly, I asked you to prove the premise you made in your original post that supposedly disproved pre-trib. You were not able to do so.

Yankee Candle
Jul 18th 2008, 02:24 PM
"You keep clinging to Luke 21:36 as if it proves 'imminency'".

You are avoiding the issue.

Matt. 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."
Mt 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Mr 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning"

This my friend, is imminency.

(American Heritage Dictionary) Imminent: About to occur; impending: in imminent danger.

When the Lord comes for His people He will comes as 'a thief in the night' that is, by stealth. This act will not be observed by an unbelieving world. He will remove His children quickly and quietly in the twinkling of an eye (as a thief that breaks into a house...and does his work quietly, takes what he wants and leaves unnoticed).

http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg


Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

vinsight4u8
Jul 18th 2008, 02:25 PM
Yep, and when is the anti-christ revealed? Before the seventh trumpet of after the seventh trumpet?

John was shown how Israel began (with ch 12). This same chapter shows him God's overall goal is to rule the nations. Okay, we see that this plan of He will rule all the nations has a few snags in it first, as Satan and his plan will be in the way.

Satan will come with heads and horns
stars - other fallen angels
Herod

and yet God's plan will continue

Satan gets one final attempt to hold the holy site - the place of the future throne of the earth.
So here comes - ch 13 to explain to John that part.

Ch 14 - shows there will be a reaping after those die in the Lord.

15:1 reveals seven angels to John for the first time. These guys all have plagues left - the last plagues.

Now, ch 15 will soon begin to give John a better picture of what happened with the seven angels.
John will tell us - "after that I looked"
Here is where John will receive a new set of information and it will reveal to him more as to the first and last set of plagues. John learns that when the first set of plagues -
"the plagues of the angels" ends - then men will be allowed to enter the temple in heaven.

John wil now set the two times of plagues widely apart.

Ch 16 will not be shown to John for a long time, as first he will write as to how he saw the sealed book at the time of the 7th trumpet.

cwb
Jul 18th 2008, 02:31 PM
"You keep clinging to Luke 21:36 as if it proves 'imminency'".

You are avoiding the issue.

Matt. 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."
Mt 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Mr 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning"

This my friend, is imminency.

(American Heritage Dictionary) Imminent: About to occur; impending: in imminent danger.

When the Lord comes for His people He will comes as 'a thief in the night' that is, by stealth. This act will not be observed by an unbelieving world. He will remove His children quickly and quietly in the twinkling of an eye (as a thief that breaks into a house...and does his work quietly, takes what he wants and leaves unnoticed).

http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


Even when I was pre-trib I saw those verses concerning His coming "as a thief in the night" to be referring to His second coming to earth and not the rapture. In thessalonians, it talks about sudden destruction coming on them as a thief in the night. Sudden destruction does not come on the unbelievers until after the tribulation.

Yankee Candle
Jul 18th 2008, 02:32 PM
You're a funny guy. First of all, if I were pre-trib, I wouldn't even bite at your "challenge" since I can tell you are not looking for an answer but are just looking to bash. Secondly, I looked through this thread and have seen at least three posters back up their viewpoint with scripture. I might not agree the scripture they posted to back up their viewpoint. Nevertheless they used scripture to back up their viewpoint. Whether you agree with how they interpret those scriptures is a different story. You making this statement here is absolutely absurd. I think you need to back up and show some respect for your brothers and sisters who are pre-trib. Thirdly, I asked you to prove the premise you made in your original post that supposedly disproved pre-trib. You were not able to do so.

Good point. And you are right, I am not even going to answer that poster.

But the way I see it, if those who so vehemently hate the pre-trib rapture are so allergic to escaping the coming tribulation, then perhaps God will grant them their wish and they will be 'left behind'. :rolleyes:

This is said 'tongue-in-cheek' of course. I wouldn't wish that for my worst enemy, that's how bad the tribulation will be: a living nightmare.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

cwb
Jul 18th 2008, 02:34 PM
I told you I will not derail my own thread, and I don't appreciette your doing it.

Start your own thread and I will join in it. Either post the scripture I asked for from you, or stop derailing this thread. It is disrespectfull.

How can I be derailing a thread when I am asking to to back up what you said in your original post.

theleast
Jul 18th 2008, 02:34 PM
You're a funny guy. First of all, if I were pre-trib, I wouldn't even bite at your "challenge" since I can tell you are not looking for an answer but are just looking to bash. Secondly, I looked through this thread and have seen at least three posters back up their viewpoint with scripture. I might not agree the scripture they posted to back up their viewpoint. Nevertheless they used scripture to back up their viewpoint. Whether you agree with how they interpret those scriptures is a different story. You making this statement here is absolutely absurd. I think you need to back up and show some respect for your brothers and sisters who are pre-trib. Thirdly, I asked you to prove the premise you made in your original post that supposedly disproved pre-trib. You were not able to do so.

Aside from your attempt to red herring me away from my actual request of having a scripture discussion on this, I saw one piece of scripture that was used, and Literalist Luke dealt with it before I could.

All I'm asking you to do is follow the original intent of this thread and post scripture, until you do that as far as this thread and discussion is concerned I will no longer be drawn into this argument with you.

I will however, when I have time, deal with your request by creating another thread dealing with your beasts. Expect it this weekend. I will do that as a show of respect and good faith toward you. Understand though one final time that is NOT the intent of this thread and I do not want to derail this topic any further. Good Day.

Yankee Candle
Jul 18th 2008, 02:39 PM
Even when I was pre-trib I saw those verses concerning His coming "as a thief in the night" to be referring to His second coming to earth and not the rapture. In thessalonians, it talks about sudden destruction coming on them as a thief in the night. Sudden destruction does not come on the unbelievers until after the tribulation.

This I will answer. You are dead wrong.

Give the name of any thief you have ever known or read about that breaks into a house or building with the intent of making noise in order to be heard and discovered in the act of theft.

The analogy is: The thief in the night comes first, quietly, then once He is gone with his goods, the noise comes. It is a matter of timing.

The verses I gave concerning imminency are clear enough. Christ's return is imminent. There is nothing that anyone can do to change that.

Mt 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mt 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Mr 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

vinsight4u8
Jul 18th 2008, 02:42 PM
This I will answer. You are dead wrong.

Give the name of any thief you have ever known or read about that breaks into a house or building with the intent of making noise in order to be heard and discovered in the act of theft.

The analogy is: The thief in the night comes first, quietly, then once He is gone with his goods, the noise comes. It is a matter of timing.

The verses I gave concerning imminency are clear enough. Christ's return is imminent. There is nothing that anyone can do to change that.

Mt 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mt 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Mr 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!



The church is to be as the "goodman" that watched and therefore he knew the hour.

1 Thes. 5 shows the brethren will not be in darkeness as to that day.

Rev 3:3 shows the church is to watch or she won't know the hour.

cwb
Jul 18th 2008, 03:03 PM
This I will answer. You are dead wrong.





Maybe you like the original poster of this thread should tone down your rhetoric and we can discuss the scriptures like civilized Christians. I know. I am kind of a silly person to request such a thing. Just for your information, I have defended pre-trib on this board alot longer than you have been here. It has been less than a month that I have changed from pre-trib to undecided.


Give the name of any thief you have ever known or read about that breaks into a house or building with the intent of making noise in order to be heard and discovered in the act of theft.

The analogy is: The thief in the night comes first, quietly, then once He is gone with his goods, the noise comes. It is a matter of timing.

The verses I gave concerning imminency are clear enough. Christ's return is imminent. There is nothing that anyone can do to change that.

Mt 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mt 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Mr 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.



I Thess 5:2-3 say


For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.



Sudden destruction does not come on the anti-christ and the unbelievers during the tribulation. The anti-christ and his follower will be saying "peace and safety" until the Christ and His armies come to defeat the beast as it says in Rev. 19. Even if pre-trib is correct, I'm going to have to disagree with you that "thief in the night" is referring to the rapture. Like I say, even when I was whole heartedly pre-trib, I never saw "thief in the night as referring to the rapture but saw it as referring the when Christ comes with His armies to defeat the anti-christ.

vinsight4u8
Jul 18th 2008, 03:35 PM
Maybe you like the original poster of this thread should tone down your rhetoric and we can discuss the scriptures like civilized Christians. I know. I am kind of a silly person to request such a thing. Just for your information, I have defended pre-trib on this board alot longer than you have been here. It has been less than a month that I have changed from pre-trib to undecided.


Sudden destruction does not come on the anti-christ and the unbelievers during the tribulation. The anti-christ and his follower will be saying "peace and safety" until the Christ and His armies come to defeat the beast as it says in Rev. 19. Even if pre-trib is correct, I'm going to have to disagree with you that "thief in the night" is referring to the rapture. Like I say, even when I was whole heartedly pre-trib, I never saw "thief in the night as referring to the rapture but saw it as referring the when Christ comes with His armies to defeat the anti-christ.



Wouldn't the peace and safety time seem to fit for the wicked after the beast slays the two witnesses?


The wicked world gets busy sending gifts to each other!
Time for them to hoop it up.
But only briefly - for the third woe comes quickly bringing the 7th trumpet earthquake

Yankee Candle
Jul 18th 2008, 03:42 PM
The church is to be as the "goodman" that watched and therefore he knew the hour.

1 Thes. 5 shows the brethren will not be in darkeness as to that day.

Rev 3:3 shows the church is to watch or she won't know the hour.

That's right! But the rest of the world will be (pardon the expression) caught with their breeches down. They will be left behind.

We believers are not 'in darkness' as to the fact that that day is indeed coming but we DO NOT KNOW the day nor the hour.

I gave you our Lord's words about imminency and they are unquestionably speaking of His any moment return.

By way of example; if your brother tells you, "I will return from a long trip, but I am not telling you what day or hour," then when may you expect him?

a. at any moment?
b. on May 12, 2012?
c. after all kinds of bad things happen all around you?
d. when the government requires you to take an ID mark on your body?


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

mfowler12
Jul 18th 2008, 03:48 PM
I guess you can call that logic, but it isn't a logic which requires any kind of real digging. Seven trumpets, last trumpet is number seven.

You can use scripture to help interpret scripture. My point is that the pre-tribulation doctrine has NO scripture to prove that doctrine.

I notice that the pretribulation crowd is not providing the scripture that I asked for. Scripture that backs up the pre-tribulation doctrine.

They have instead resorted to posting scripture (if they post any at all) that is an attempt to disprove post-trib doctrine or mid-trib doctrine. And the scripture that they provide there is shaky at best, and is far outweighed by the doctrine that flat out says the final trumpet heralds Christs return.

Your posts really don't seem well intentioned. You ask for people to prove a theory to you but you have already made up your mind that no matter what they give, it is wrong. Why the hostility?

When I read this thread, it seems as nobody cares about what the Word of God is truly saying. We just want know that we are right in our theories.

Let us just leave what we cannot control in God's hands and just soak in the love and salvation that we have been given with only the price of faith to pay our way.

Just as I tell myself everyday, do not worry. Matthew 6:25-34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%206:25-34;&version=50;)

33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

DeafPosttrib
Jul 18th 2008, 03:51 PM
Rapture always come with Second Coming same time. Also, "Thief in the night" is tied with Second Coming same time.

Matt. 24:36-41 describe about the example of thief in the night, what happened to people in Noah's Day, the flood came and TOOK them away, same idea as what will be happen at Second Coming, all unbelievers shall be taken away unexpectly, that is called, "thief" , for the purpose of angels will come and grab all unbelievers up in the air, and bring them to face the throne of Christ, then cast them away into the lake of fire.

Christ commands us that we ought to be watch and be ready for His coming, so, we will not be end up as "thief".

"Dark" of 1 Thessalonians chapter 5 speaks of sinning and walking in the worldly life. "Dark" is not relate with so called seven year of Tribulation period. Rather that we must walk in the light daily. So, we would not end up as "thief" at His coming.

If we do not watch and ready, and remain in the dark, then we will be end up as 'thief', and cast us away in the lake of fire.

That why, we must always be ready all the times, not know when Second Coming will be.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

talmidim
Jul 18th 2008, 03:56 PM
This is the reason that I dislike threads like this. The subject is extremely interesting, but the tone is one of constant criticism and condemnation. And most people in the discussion do not understand the symbolism that is rooted in the Hebrew culture and Hebrew scripture.

Take the phrase, 'thief in the night' for example. It obviously originated based on the behavior of thieves. But it was used in the Temple to refer to the High Priest or the Chief of the Temple Guard. They would make the round to insure the priests that stood watch would not fall asleep. The punishment for dozing on the watch was a beating of 'many stripes' (sound familiar?) or their priestly garments being set on fire so that they would be awakened in flames and be forced to strip and stand the remainder of the watch, freezing in the night air and shamed before their brethren. The priests by the way wore white garments underneath their breastplates and helmets. And as I recall we are called as a nation priests and kings and to put on the 'whole armor'.

The context of this phrase can easily be seen in such chapters as Revelation 3 and Revelation 16. Notice the association between the admonition to 'be watchful', the phrase 'thief in the night' and the nature of one's 'garments'.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Please also note that the Master would not come 'as a thief', upon those who watched, only those who did not watch. Because if you are watching - there is no surprise - no stripes - no defilement of your garments according to these scriptures. And these are the words of the Messiah.

In short, we misinterpret the scriptures because we misinterpret the context in which they are given. And that is why I have withdrawn from this thread.

In His Love,
Phillip

vinsight4u8
Jul 18th 2008, 03:57 PM
That's right! But the rest of the world will be (pardon the expression) caught with their breeches down. They will be left behind.

We believers are not 'in darkness' as to the fact that that day is indeed coming but we DO NOT KNOW the day nor the hour.

I gave you our Lord's words about imminency and they are unquestionably speaking of His any moment return.

By way of example; if your brother tells you, "I will return from a long trip, but I am not telling you what day or hour," then when may you expect him?

a. at any moment?
b. on May 12, 2012?
c. after all kinds of bad things happen all around you?
d. when the government requires you to take an ID mark on your body?


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg


Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


Jesus didn't speak of any kind of a secret return for Himself. He foretold how signs would come first, things to watch for. He told us - when ye see all these things/ when ye see the abomination of desolation.

Hebrews 9:28 tells us what to expect when Jesus appears - salvation.

Look at how salvaton is spoken of by those out of great tribulation in Rev. 7 - just before the 7th seal is opened.

Would it make sense to say that based upon Hebrews 9 and Rev. 7 that the salvation time of His appearing must occur before the 7th seal?

Hebrews (9:28)
"...unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

So when John put this in for us to read...
Rev. 7:10
"And cried with a loud voice...Salvation.."

Could this be a clue that Jesus appears before the 7th seal?
Why would people say salvation if that time hasn't yet come?
These are people that come out of great tribulation.

Therefore, couldn't we also conclude that the great tribulation ends before the 7th seal is opened?

vinsight4u8
Jul 18th 2008, 04:10 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------
One question for you......

During that tribulation or even the great tribulation.. are you as a born again Christian going to have to undergo and be subject to God's wrath that He pours out on a rebellious planet that rejected Him and followed the father of lies?

1 Thes. 5 shows that the church gets salvation and then any wrath time after that she is not appointed to.



Hebrews 9:28 makes it clear that Jesus appears at salvation time.

Rev. 7 shows the out of great trib saints say, "Salvation" just before the 7th seal is opened.
So - is Jesus Christ coming in the 6th seal?
Is that the salvation time of His appearing?
Absolutely!

Mark F
Jul 18th 2008, 04:18 PM
Since the timing of the rapture is implied to be at the seventh trumpet (judgment), how can this same event be described in the 6th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th bowl judgement?



Sixth Seal: Revelation 6:12-17

12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”




Seventh Trumpet: Revelation 11:15-19

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:


“ We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.




Seventh Bowl: Revelation 16:17-21

17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. 19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. 20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.



I would think that placing the rapture at the 7th trumpet judgment is incorrect, by looking at the texts above there are bigger problems than proving the 7th trumpet rapture.

vinsight4u8
Jul 18th 2008, 04:30 PM
Hi Mark,

Do you look at Revelation 11 as being where an angel is filling John in more as to things?


Rev. 11
has him measuring the temple
a temple that is only the pattern
as the temple was destroyed
another one will come that the outer court part situation is different
The angel continues to fill John in on there will be two witnesses that testify for 1260 days, then get slain and the wicked world will be in a party mood way after this.
send gifts to each other
the 2nd woe is past
But the angel spoke of another woe
the great earthquake hour woe
said it would come quickly
this is the same hour as the two witnesses will rise from the dead
The earthquake hour.
6th seal - also contains earthquake time

John was told in chapter 11 that the earthquake hour would come, but do you find anywhere John wrote about it that he saw it happen?
It's not in ch 11, it's in ch 6 -the 6th seal.

John was shown the trumpet times and then given the link to know which seal the 7th one would come during.

That is why Rev. 7 carries within it "Salvation" being said by the out of trib martyrs - because that Salvation time comes when Jesus Christ appears.

Jesus appears shortly before the 7th seal.

vinsight4u8
Jul 18th 2008, 04:47 PM
Take this part of ch 11 and make it what happens just before John sees the sealed book.

Rev. 11:16
"And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell..."

Rev. 4:10
"The four and twenty elders fell down before him that sat on the throne..."

These guys all cast off their golden crowns right to where John sees the sealed book....so the earthquake of the 7th trumpet has been put on hold....

till John gets to the 6th seal!

Yankee Candle
Jul 18th 2008, 05:32 PM
Jesus didn't speak of any kind of a secret return for Himself. He foretold how signs would come first, things to watch for. He told us - when ye see all these things/ when ye see the abomination of desolation.

Hebrews 9:28 tells us what to expect when Jesus appears - salvation.

Look at how salvaton is spoken of by those out of great tribulation in Rev. 7 - just before the 7th seal is opened.

Would it make sense to say that based upon Hebrews 9 and Rev. 7 that the salvation time of His appearing must occur before the 7th seal?

Hebrews (9:28)
"...unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

So when John put this in for us to read...
Rev. 7:10
"And cried with a loud voice...Salvation.."

Could this be a clue that Jesus appears before the 7th seal?
Why would people say salvation if that time hasn't yet come?
These are people that come out of great tribulation.

Therefore, couldn't we also conclude that the great tribulation ends before the 7th seal is opened?

That is an error and it is a serious one.

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." I Thessalonias 5:2.

Interestingly enough, Job gives us some insight on this matter:

"The murderer rising with the light killeth the poor and needy, and in the night is as a thief." Job 24:14

The analogy Paul gave us is therefore obvious; no thief will come and steal things from others by first announcing his arrival. He comes at a time unexpected and does his work covertly.

It is the second stage of Christ's second coming that will be very, uh....noisy! Revelation 19:11-19. The visible return of Christ at the end of that awful period of time will be anything but unexpected by believers.

The visible signs that Jesus told His followers to watch for pertain to those who get saved during the tribulation. They will be persecuted and martyred. That is who Revelation 7 refers to.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg


Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

Yankee Candle
Jul 18th 2008, 05:51 PM
"Maybe you like the original poster of this thread should tone down your rhetoric and we can discuss the scriptures like civilized Christians."

You don't need to tell me to tone things down for I am perfectly calm and relaxed. You are just being too sensitive.

But perhaps your reading in to my words an emotion I do not feel is a reflection as to how you and some of the other anti pre-trib folks read into the scriptures things that aren't there and mentally change things that are!

Jesus will come quietly as a thief for His people and steal them right out from under Satan's nose. Then the noisy time comes.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

vinsight4u8
Jul 18th 2008, 05:57 PM
That is an error and it is a serious one.

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." I Thessalonias 5:2.

Interestingly enough, Job gives us some insight on this matter:

"The murderer rising with the light killeth the poor and needy, and in the night is as a thief." Job 24:14

The analogy Paul gave us is therefore obvious; no thief will come and steal things from others by first announcing his arrival. He comes at a time unexpected and does his work covertly.

It is the second stage of Christ's second coming that will be very, uh....noisy! Revelation 19:11-19. The visible return of Christ at the end of that awful period of time will be anything but unexpected by believers.

The visible signs that Jesus told His followers to watch for pertain to those who get saved during the tribulation. They will be persecuted and martyred. That is who Revelation 7 refers to.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


1 Thes. 5 shows the brethren are not in darkness as to the day.
They won't be taken as a thief, they will know just about when to expect Him.

So Rev. 7 - as to "Salvation" is about the trib martyrs?

Then what is Rev. 19:1 as to "Salvation" for?


Why do you stop at 1 Thes. 5:2? What about verse 4?

"But ye, brethren are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

vinsight4u8
Jul 18th 2008, 06:01 PM
That is an error and it is a serious one.

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." I Thessalonias 5:2.

Interestingly enough, Job gives us some insight on this matter:

"The murderer rising with the light killeth the poor and needy, and in the night is as a thief." Job 24:14
...


Using your analogy - if Jesus came on the church as a thief, then that makes Him coming to kill her.

vinsight4u8
Jul 18th 2008, 06:05 PM
Who is this verse for?

1 Thes. 5:9
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

So who is this salvation coming time for?


How about the salvation appearing time prophesied in Hebrews?

Hebrews 9:28
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he
appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

so - Who is this salvation appearing of Christ time for?

Yankee Candle
Jul 18th 2008, 06:27 PM
Using your analogy - if Jesus came on the church as a thief, then that makes Him coming to kill her.

What kind of logic is this?

It was the Holy Spirit who uses the analogy, not I.

Your line of reasoning would condemn Jesus for using the parable of the unjust judge as it pertains to God the father.

"And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith. And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?"

Do you understand what I am driving at? It was Jesus himself who made the comparison between the unjust judge and God. It was just an analogy. Please permit the writers of scripture to make an obvious point without requiring such a rigid pre-requisite to its application in the real world. Read the verse in Job again. The speaker in that verse was not speaking of Christ's coming. He was simply talking about the stealth a thief uses to steal what he desires. It is a loose analogy which the Holy Spirit employed in the N.T. many places.

Why you and those of your persuasion on this issue resist so strongly what can only be the best possible news to believers who would otherwise face the horrific tribulation period is a mystery to me. Nonetheless, the Bible is clear; our Lord will come for His bride at a time unexpected, Anything after that beginning point of the last 7 years will NOT be unexpected.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

wpm
Jul 18th 2008, 06:37 PM
It is the second stage of Christ's second coming that will be very, uh....noisy! Revelation 19:11-19. The visible return of Christ at the end of that awful period of time will be anything but unexpected by believers.

The visible signs that Jesus told His followers to watch for pertain to those who get saved during the tribulation. They will be persecuted and martyred. That is who Revelation 7 refers to.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”

This is indeed sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming with a whisper but a shout. Also, with "the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God." This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations.

This is a record of Christ’s one and only future Coming. This reading describes how Christ comes with and for His saints the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” This is the final uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ). It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s Coming) is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.

The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a second chance gospel and a 7yrs trib.

Jesus says of His Coming, in Matthew 24:29-30, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is referring to the exact same event as is described in 1 Thessalonians 4. It is the Coming of the Lord that is signalled by the sound of the last trump and the uniting of the elect both on earth and in heaven. Christ tells us that the angels “shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” This agrees with Paul’s assertion in 1 Thessalonians 4 that Christ will come with and for His saints at His Coming. Those saints that the angels gather in heaven are the "dead in Christ," those that are gathered from the four winds of the earth are 'the live in Christ'. This seems to be describing the same event. Moreover, this passage locates the catching away at the end of the tribulation, not seven years before it.

What is more, not only does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and Matthew 24:29-30 correlate, but we get further detail in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53. There Paul says of this final Coming, “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Here again we see the two distinct groups of redeemed mentioned who will be finally unified at Christ’s one final Coming. When Paul says “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed” he is saying that the dead in Christ will be resurrected with new bodies but the live in Christ will be instantly “changed.” Those that are alive do not need resurrected as they don’t die. They just need transformed from mortality to immortality. Paul explains it as: “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” The “dead in Christ” are gathered from “one end of heaven to the other” and come with Christ to be united with their new spiritual bodies. The ‘live in Christ’ on the other hand are gathered together from “the four winds” of earth and are caught up together with them after instantly receiving their new bodies. Collectively the redeemed are made one in the act of glorification. This ushers in the end.

The word rendered "last" in “last trump" is the Greek word eschatos meaning end, last, farthest or final. This negates the Pretrib idea of a further trumpet seven yrs later. We are therefore looking at the final trumpet sound at the one final Coming of Christ. What is more, by clear implication, if the last trump relates to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. In the light of the explicit teaching and consistent pattern relating to the last trump elsewhere in the New Testament, and in order for what I am presenting to be true, accurate, compatible and complete (and all truth must fulfil this demanding criteria), the last trumpet in Revelation – number seven – must be a clear, vivid picture of the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. When the Bible student carefully analyses the graphic descriptive detail of the seventh trumpet in Revelation in the light of other like Scripture he is left in no doubt to its subject matter and its startling cohesion with other prophetic readings. The last trumpet outlined in Revelation 10 seems to be referring to the same last trumpet outlined in other New Testament passages and a beautiful symbolic picture of the one final glorious Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul

vinsight4u8
Jul 18th 2008, 07:10 PM
What kind of logic is this?

It was the Holy Spirit who uses the analogy, not I.

...

It was not the Holy Spirit that told you ignore verse 4 of 1 Thes. 5. The brethren are not in dakrness as to that day. Part of the world will be in darkness and not know the hour. But the brethren will not be among that group. She is to watch the signs of His appearing, His coming to bring salvation.

You chose a verse from Job and used it show what happens to those taken as a thief. If the church is to be taken by Jesus as a thief - then she will be murdered by Him.
Jesus is coming to murder the poor and needy as a thief, if we use your analogy as to the verse in Job describing a thief.


Here's a verse you should look at in Job.
14:12

and 14:14

What do they tell you about when Job will get his change?

the heavens be no more

6th seal - heaven departs

Yankee Candle
Jul 18th 2008, 07:43 PM
"This is indeed sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming with a whisper but a shout. Also, with "the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God." This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations."

The shout will be heard only by those who know Christ. Everyone else in the world will be tone deaf to His voice.

Why be stubborn about this increbile joy-filled teaching? Jesus made it clear that He will come at a time unexpected. He will come quietly as far as the rest of the human race is concerned. It is in the second stage of His coming He will come visibly and all on earth will know of it.

We are not going to be human yo-yo's with Jesus calling us UP only to come right back DOWN to earth in one great motion. How do I know? Jesus said so:

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:2-3.

Heaven will be our home. When we meet with our Lord in the air He will lead us into that great celestial dining room for the marriage supper of the Lamb.

"And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready." Luke 14:17

Thank God, it's nearly supper time!




Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

wpm
Jul 18th 2008, 07:58 PM
"This is indeed sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming with a whisper but a shout. Also, with "the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God." This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations."

The shout will be heard only by those who know Christ. Everyone else in the world will be tone deaf to His voice.

Why be stubborn about this increbile joy-filled teaching? Jesus made it clear that He will come at a time unexpected. He will come quietly as far as the rest of the human race is concerned. It is in the second stage of His coming He will come visibly and all on earth will know of it.

We are not going to be human yo-yo's with Jesus calling us UP only to come right back DOWN to earth in one great motion. How do I know? Jesus said so:

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:2-3.

Heaven will be our home. When we meet with our Lord in the air He will lead us into that great celestial dining room for the marriage supper of the Lamb.

"And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready." Luke 14:17

Thank God, it's nearly supper time!


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-26018-0125_med.jpg


Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


Irrespective of all the personal opinion: Can you show us one single Scripture that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

Paul

Yankee Candle
Jul 18th 2008, 08:00 PM
It was not the Holy Spirit that told you ignore verse 4 of 1 Thes. 5. The brethren are not in dakrness as to that day. Part of the world will be in darkness and not know the hour. But the brethren will not be among that group. She is to watch the signs of His appearing, His coming to bring salvation.

You chose a verse from Job and used it show what happens to those taken as a thief. If the church is to be taken by Jesus as a thief - then she will be murdered by Him.
Jesus is coming to murder the poor and needy as a thief, if we use your analogy as to the verse in Job describing a thief.


Here's a verse you should look at in Job.
14:12

and 14:14

What do they tell you about when Job will get his change?

the heavens be no more

6th seal - heaven departs

I ignored nothing. Your charge is false. But I don't cover the entire range of views on this subject with every post.

"But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

We are obviously not on the same page here. That verse supports the position I am espousing, not yours. It is quite to the point that believers will be waiting and watching for CHRIST, not antichrist, tribulation, world government, or the mark of the beast. So those who are watching WILL NOT miss the time of Jesus coming for His bride but will, with faith and obedience to His Word, be wearing the necessary wedding garments for the marriage supper of the Lamb.

The truth is that when the invitations have been sent out and all who were bidden to the wedding have rejected that invitation, the bride and the groom are just going to...elope!




Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

cwb
Jul 19th 2008, 03:10 AM
"Maybe you like the original poster of this thread should tone down your rhetoric and we can discuss the scriptures like civilized Christians."

You don't need to tell me to tone things down for I am perfectly calm and relaxed. You are just being too sensitive.

But perhaps your reading in to my words an emotion I do not feel is a reflection as to how you and some of the other anti pre-trib folks read into the scriptures things that aren't there and mentally change things that are!

Jesus will come quietly as a thief for His people and steal them right out from under Satan's nose. Then the noisy time comes.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg


Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!



Sorry if I misunderstood you. Anyways, back to what we were discussing.



I Thess 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


This seems to me to be talking about the time when Jesus Christ comes to make war with and destroy the anti-christ. Doesn't Jesus Christ allow the anti-christ to reign until that time?

And by the way, I am definitely not "anti pre-trib" as you said here. Not sure how you got that impression from anything I posted.

cwb
Jul 19th 2008, 03:22 AM
And Shalom to you too Carboy,

I am sorry I missed that you were answering my post. I did not intend to be rude. Please forgive me.

In order to understand the 'last trump' you must understand the Temple service. There were both shofars and trumpets blown during various times of the morning and evening service and on the various Appointed Feasts and Fasts of Yahweh. It has nothing to do with the seventh trumpet in the Revelation of our Master. Those trumpets are typified in the book of Numbers as alarms, calls to assemble and calls to battle. This is amply demonstrated in the actions associated with the trumpets in the Revelation.

There is a great deal of information that is held in the symbology of the seals, trumpets and cups. But there is little doubt that they are His judgments. And each is a judgment that is intended for different individual groups. So I doubt the rendering of these items in most of the posts I have read in this thread. I hope you understand what I am saying.

I suggest that you study:

The Temple - Its Ministry and Services (http://philologos.org/__eb-ttms/)


as they were at the time of Christ (http://philologos.org/__eb-ttms/)



by Alfred Edersheim (http://philologos.org/__eb-ttms/)

(http://philologos.org/__eb-ttms/)


(1825-1889) (http://philologos.org/__eb-ttms/)

(http://philologos.org/__eb-ttms/)





If I may, I would also suggest you keep your scriptures open to Leviticus while you read this the first time through and the Revelation the second time through. You might find it interesting.

There is also some interesting information at places like: TEMPLE, ADMINISTRATION AND SERVICE OF at (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=122&letter=T) JewishEncyclopedia.com. But care must be taken that you rightly sift the scriptural truth from the traditions of man.

I am sure you know how to do an internet search to find further information on this topic. I hope the information I posted is helpful.

In His Love,
Phillip


Talmidim, Thanks for posting. Just because I have not responded does not mean I will not look into the information you have posted as I get time.

David Taylor
Jul 19th 2008, 02:06 PM
So those who are watching WILL NOT miss the time of Jesus coming for His bride but will, with faith and obedience to His Word, be wearing the necessary wedding garments for the marriage supper of the Lamb.




What chapter in Revelation tells us the time of the marriage of the Lamb is come?

Is it a chapter before the seals, trumpets, and vials; or

is it chapter 19; at the return of Christ at the final battle of Armegeddon?






Does Revelation say Christ will come for those who watch for Him in the chapters before the seals, trumpets, or vials; or

Does Revelation say Christ will come for those who watch at the time of Armageddon as described between the 6th and 7th Bowl at Armegeddon?

cwb
Jul 19th 2008, 09:03 PM
II Thessalonians 1:6-10 - "He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you."

O.K. so I have read through these verses you posted here. Still don't see how they prove post-trib.

Yankee Candle
Jul 19th 2008, 09:34 PM
What chapter in Revelation tells us the time of the marriage of the Lamb is come?

Is it a chapter before the seals, trumpets, and vials; or

is it chapter 19; at the return of Christ at the final battle of Armegeddon?

Does Revelation say Christ will come for those who watch for Him in the chapters before the seals, trumpets, or vials; or

Does Revelation say Christ will come for those who watch at the time of Armageddon as described between the 6th and 7th Bowl at Armegeddon?

I answered this one before but I will briefly answer again.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ as seen by John (1:19) is broken down into three time periods, "that which thou hast seen" (Chapter one), "things which are" (Chapters two & three), and "the things which shall be hereafter" (Chapters 4-22).

John's personal rapture in 4:1-2 prefigures the rapture of all living saints just prior to the tribulation and chapters four and five of Rev. reveal to us what we will see when the Lord takes us up to meet with Him. The rapture of the saints should be placed right there.

There is no rapture mentioned in any other place except for the two witnesses (chapter 11) who go up slowly and alone in the sight of men when God calls them up. All other so-called raptures in Revelation are by mere inference.

The key is understanding the connection between John's experience in 4:1-2 and how they connect with I Corinthians 15:51-53 & I Thess. 4:15-18.

Once it is understood that Jesus coming for His bride will be by stealth (quietly) as a 'thief in the night' as opposed to a very noisy visible return at the end of the 7 yr tribulation, then one must conclude that the 2nd coming is in two stages. Much like the prophets visions of the coming Messiah was in two stages (the 1st & 2nd advents), the Jews did not grasp it and almost all of them missed the boat when Jesus arrived and fulfilled the first part of those prophecies.

Much the same thing will happen to the Christian world when Christ removes His bride quietly. The apostates and faithless will be left behind wondering what happened and why it happened. They never believed in it to begin with and never did grasp Jesus words.

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

"For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Those that eccape, Paul tells us, will do so in the 'twinkling of an eye'!


http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/UNY/UNY166/u13784142.jpg


Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

Literalist-Luke
Jul 19th 2008, 11:22 PM
II Thessalonians 1:6-10 - "He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you."
O.K. so I have read through these verses you posted here. Still don't see how they prove post-trib.OK, it's analysis time. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/study.gif

First Paul tells us that "He" (Jesus) will do two things: (1) He will avenge us or "pay back trouble to those who trouble you" and (2) He will give relief to "you" and "us". By the word "us", Paul is including himself in that list. We know that Paul will obviously be included in the Rapture, whenever it happens, because he is, of course, one of the dead in Christ. So when do these things happen? "This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels." That sounds like the 2nd Coming to me. However, as a former Pre-Tribber, I could see somebody saying, "Well, yeah, it sounds like the 2nd Coming, but it could still be a separate event that occurs prior to the Tribulation which the lost people don't see." So that brings us to the 2nd half of this quote, which is the most important part:

How will He "pay back trouble" to those who have troubled us? "They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."

First, notice that "they" are given a punishment here that is "everlasting". The only place we see an "everlasting" punishment happening is when a lost person dies and they descend into hell. (Which later is transferred to the Lake of Fire, of course.) The "punishments" of the Tribulation are only temporary, because none of the seal/trumpet/bowl plagues are "everlasting". So this "punishment" that Paul speaks of is something that occurs after the seals/trumpets/bowls. Therefore it would make sense that this "everlasting" punishment could be no earlier than the 2nd Coming.

And look when Paul specifically says this happens: "on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed." So we're talking about some sort of appearance of Christ here. We've already established that it must be after the seals/trumpets/bowls, so can't be a Pre-Trib Rapture that Paul is speaking of here, so it must be something afterward, which seems to leave only the 2nd Coming.

At this point, the argument could be presented that this quote's 2nd half and 1st half are not speaking of the same thing, that we are seeing, in effect, a "telescoping" of different occurrences. That could very well be the case, but for one thing that Paul then clarifies for us:

"This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you."

So Paul is saying that the Thessalonians believers to whom he is writing, who are now included with Paul in the "dead in Christ" who will participate in the Rapture (whenever it occurs), are included in "his holy people" and in "those who have believed", the same people who will glorify Jesus "on the day" that Jesus brings "everlasting destruction" on the lost, after the seals/trumpets/bowls.

Therefore, we have a Post-Trib Rapture specifically described here by Paul.

vinsight4u8
Jul 19th 2008, 11:33 PM
Rev. 11 speaks as to the two witnesses will rise at the 3rd woe earthquake hour - that is the 7th turmpet time.

The same time when all of the just will rise from the dead.

Yankee Candle
Jul 20th 2008, 12:22 AM
Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

cwb
Jul 20th 2008, 12:48 AM
OK, it's analysis time. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/study.gif

First Paul tells us that "He" (Jesus) will do two things: (1) He will avenge us or "pay back trouble to those who trouble you" and (2) He will give relief to "you" and "us". By the word "us", Paul is including himself in that list. We know that Paul will obviously be included in the Rapture, whenever it happens, because he is, of course, one of the dead in Christ. So when do these things happen? "This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels." That sounds like the 2nd Coming to me. However, as a former Pre-Tribber, I could see somebody saying, "Well, yeah, it sounds like the 2nd Coming, but it could still be a separate event that occurs prior to the Tribulation which the lost people don't see." So that brings us to the 2nd half of this quote, which is the most important part:

How will He "pay back trouble" to those who have troubled us? "They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."

First, notice that "they" are given a punishment here that is "everlasting". The only place we see an "everlasting" punishment happening is when a lost person dies and they descend into hell. (Which later is transferred to the Lake of Fire, of course.) The "punishments" of the Tribulation are only temporary, because none of the seal/trumpet/bowl plagues are "everlasting". So this "punishment" that Paul speaks of is something that occurs after the seals/trumpets/bowls. Therefore it would make sense that this "everlasting" punishment could be no earlier than the 2nd Coming.

And look when Paul specifically says this happens: "on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed." So we're talking about some sort of appearance of Christ here. We've already established that it must be after the seals/trumpets/bowls, so can't be a Pre-Trib Rapture that Paul is speaking of here, so it must be something afterward, which seems to leave only the 2nd Coming.

At this point, the argument could be presented that this quote's 2nd half and 1st half are not speaking of the same thing, that we are seeing, in effect, a "telescoping" of different occurrences. That could very well be the case, but for one thing that Paul then clarifies for us:

"This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you."

So Paul is saying that the Thessalonians believers to whom he is writing, who are now included with Paul in the "dead in Christ" who will participate in the Rapture (whenever it occurs), are included in "his holy people" and in "those who have believed", the same people who will glorify Jesus "on the day" that Jesus brings "everlasting destruction" on the lost, after the seals/trumpets/bowls.

Therefore, we have a Post-Trib Rapture specifically described here by Paul.

I am going to have to disagree that your analysis "proves" a psot-trib rapture.


The "punishments" of the Tribulation are only temporary, because none of the seal/trumpet/bowl plagues are "everlasting". So this "punishment" that Paul speaks of is something that occurs after the seals/trumpets/bowls. Therefore it would make sense that this "everlasting" punishment could be no earlier than the 2nd Coming.



Are you basing your whole analysis on the "punishments" of the tribulation being temporary and therefore this section of scriipture has to be after the trumpets and bowls? If so I would have to say I see some problems with your analysis. The trumpets and bowls are the begininng of the everlasting punishment of those who reject Jesus Christ.

II Thess. 2:11-12
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness

Luke 21:22
For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 20th 2008, 01:08 AM
Post tribulation: a human yo-yo theory.

Down-up-down-up.

Down - on earth awaiting the Lord at the end of the tribulation.
Up - we go up to meet with Jesus in the clouds.
Down - we go down with Him & destroy the wicked & help establish His kingdom
Up - we go up at the end of milleniusm & finally get to see the mansions He made for us.

???:confusedYour sequence of events for the Post-Trib scenario is not even correct. And I can't figure out what thrill it is that you get from ridiculing another position besides your own. This is the third time that I've said something about it in this thread alone.

Has anybody here been this hateful with you about your Pre-Trib position? Surely a believer in Christ can find better things to do with their time. It's not as if those who are mistaken about the Rapture's timing are going to lose their salvation or anything.

quiet dove
Jul 20th 2008, 01:23 AM
Your sequence of events for the Post-Trib scenario is not even correct. And I can't figure out what thrill it is that you get from ridiculing another position besides your own. This is the third time that I've said something about it in this thread alone.

Has anybody here been this hateful with you about your Pre-Trib position? Surely a believer in Christ can find better things to do with their time. It's not as if those who are mistaken about the Rapture's timing are going to lose their salvation or anything.

I agree, that ones understanding of if or when on the rapture is not a salvation issue.

The problem also is that when pre trib describes amil or post trib, we have problems. When amil or post trib start telling the other or pre trib what they believe, we have problems.

Folks, stick to describing your own view and not telling others what they believe or what what they believe means they are doing, it is trouble every time it is done, and it is done to much by all sides.

So.....cut it out! Everyone---amil, post trib, and pre trib and everyone in between all of those.

Yankee Candle
Jul 20th 2008, 01:36 AM
"Your sequence of events for the Post-Trib scenario is not even correct. And I can't figure out what thrill it is that you get from ridiculing another position besides your own. This is the third time that I've said something about it in this thread alone.

Has anybody here been this hateful with you about your Pre-Trib position? Surely a believer in Christ can find better things to do with their time. It's not as if those who are mistaken about the Rapture's timing are going to lose their salvation or anything."

I deleted what I said to avoid an unecessary conflict with my Christian brother.



http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/UNY/UNY166/u13784142.jpg


Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

theleast
Jul 20th 2008, 04:10 PM
O.K. so I have read through these verses you posted here. Still don't see how they prove post-trib.

For crying out loud the purpose of this thread was not to disprove or prove post-trib, it was to use scripture to prove pre-trib doctrine.

Why is that so hard to understand?

theleast
Jul 20th 2008, 04:14 PM
I agree, that ones understanding of if or when on the rapture is not a salvation issue.

The problem also is that when pre trib describes amil or post trib, we have problems. When amil or post trib start telling the other or pre trib what they believe, we have problems.

Folks, stick to describing your own view and not telling others what they believe or what what they believe means they are doing, it is trouble every time it is done, and it is done to much by all sides.

So.....cut it out! Everyone---amil, post trib, and pre trib and everyone in between all of those.

In the original post of this thread I asked for scripture to show why people believe in the pre-trib doctrine.

That was it, and the sole purpose I had for this thread. I was not interested in proving or disproving post-trib doctrine or mid-trib or anything else.

So I will ask it one more time. Please reserve this thread for ONLY POSTING SCRIPTURE SUPPORTING PRE-TRIBULATION DOCTRINE.

Sorry quiet dove, all I was looking for was scripture and not a debate, but some people seem intent on de-railing this thread instead of abstaining from participating in it.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 20th 2008, 04:17 PM
For crying out loud the purpose of this thread was not to disprove or prove post-trib, it was to use scripture to prove pre-trib doctrine.

Why is that so hard to understand?Considering that a successful attempt to prove Post-Trib would automatically disprove Pre-Trib, I don't understand why you feel we're straying. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/confused.gif

cwb
Jul 20th 2008, 05:10 PM
For crying out loud the purpose of this thread was not to disprove or prove post-trib, it was to use scripture to prove pre-trib doctrine.

Why is that so hard to understand?

To disprove post-trib is the same thing as proving pre-trib. Consequenltly, proving post-trib would disprove pre-trib. In your original post, you claimed that you disproved pre-trib. Nobody is straying from the original post in this thread.

Also, why on earth would you require a pre-tribber to use scriptue to prove pre-trib if you can't use scripture to prove post-trib. That sounds just a little unfair to me.

Clifton
Jul 20th 2008, 06:46 PM
In the original post of this thread I asked for scripture to show why people believe in the pre-trib doctrine.

That was it, and the sole purpose I had for this thread. I was not interested in proving or disproving post-trib doctrine or mid-trib or anything else.

So I will ask it one more time. Please reserve this thread for ONLY POSTING SCRIPTURE SUPPORTING PRE-TRIBULATION DOCTRINE.

Sorry quiet dove, all I was looking for was scripture and not a debate, but some people seem intent on de-railing this thread instead of abstaining from participating in it.

You might find the answers you seek (and more) quicker by utilizing an Internet Search and looking for the more ancient terms, like that for the Hebrew of Eschatology, instead of the common English words/terms that have came about over the past few hundred years since the English language has progressed, like any other language, and we have given simpler terms and words for longer ones. I mean, by looking up something like the English Term "PRE-TRIBULATION", you might wind up with listings referring to life before marriage! :lol:

It appears you are looking for the "position" of the "rapture" in time, or where its place is in the chronological sense. Let me give you some terms for this. That is called "NATZAL", and that term will tone down the Internet Search listings dramatically, and you can find "Scripture references" as well as readings from other ancient documents (there has been a lot of new discoveries recently), say like Talmud readings, which are more or less, like expositories or commentaries, and so on.

It will go like this for your research utilizing transliterations of these more ancient words/terms:
Rapture:
Natzal, or
"The Natzal".

Tribulation:
"Chevlai shel Mashiach", or
"Yamim Nora'im", or
"Ya'acov's trouble".

Note that by referring to phases/stages of the last "day" (or "end of time", "Yom HaShem", etc.), they are listed individually, and there are no prefixes, such as "pre-Natzal", "pre-Athid Lavo" ("Millennium", etc.) and so on.

If you (or any other reader here) decide to utilize internet searches, be sure to use the quotes around the terms that have more than one word, e.g. "Chevlai shel Mashiach", which is a common used term referring to the end-times Tribulation. ;)

Blessings.

fewarechosen
Jul 20th 2008, 06:59 PM
last trump just like scripture says.

so there cant be any trumps after the final trump , hope that helps. if you think the "rapture" happens then some trumps blow, its not the last trump.



the book of revelation spans the end times, where is the last trump in revelations, there is your answer

cwb
Jul 20th 2008, 08:01 PM
last trump just like scripture says.

so there cant be any trumps after the final trump , hope that helps. if you think the "rapture" happens then some trumps blow, its not the last trump.



the book of revelation spans the end times, where is the last trump in revelations, there is your answer

So the first trumpet in Revelation is the same trumpet as the trumpet in Exodus 19:16?

Clifton
Jul 20th 2008, 08:10 PM
last trump just like scripture says.

so there cant be any trumps after the final trump , hope that helps. if you think the "rapture" happens then some trumps blow, its not the last trump.

The "Great Trump" (Shofar HaGadol) comes after what you see called in English "the last trump" (which is an idiom), for the Shofar HaGadol is greater than what is in the series of the other trumps, ("first trump", "last trump" which are related to left and right horns of the ram). ;)

The "Great Trump" (Shofar HaGadol) will be blown at the end of Chevlai shel Mashiach ("Birthpains/Birthpangs of the Messiah") which shall last a 'week', e.g. 7 years.


the book of revelation spans the end times, where is the last trump in revelations, there is your answer

Not necessarily - see above.;)

Blessings.

theleast
Jul 20th 2008, 08:15 PM
To disprove post-trib is the same thing as proving pre-trib. Consequenltly, proving post-trib would disprove pre-trib.


This is by golly the worst logic I have ever seen used in an internet forum.

And I have seen some terrible logic used.

Again if you can't respect the original post of USE SCRIPTURE TO PROVE PRE-TRIB DOCTRINE then be respectfull and leave.

The only thing you have added to this discussion is agitation, and it's not cool.

Do you have scripture to prove pre-trib doctrine?

theleast
Jul 20th 2008, 08:17 PM
So the first trumpet in Revelation is the same trumpet as the trumpet in Exodus 19:16?

What? :o

Wow, just...wow.

cwb
Jul 20th 2008, 08:21 PM
What? :o

Wow, just...wow.

was that a yes or a no?

theleast
Jul 20th 2008, 08:22 PM
It is a ...stop sowing the seeds of confusion in my thread...PLEASE!

Yankee Candle
Jul 20th 2008, 08:28 PM
What? :o

Wow, just...wow.

That's what I say. Where in the world did that come from? Are we on the same planet?:confused


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-26018-0125_med.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

Yankee Candle
Jul 20th 2008, 08:34 PM
The "Great Trump" (Shofar HaGadol) comes after what you see called in English "the last trump" (which is an idiom), for the Shofar HaGadol is greater than what is in the series of the other trumps, ("first trump", "last trump" which are related to left and right horns of the ram). ;)

The "Great Trump" (Shofar HaGadol) will be blown at the end of Chevlai shel Mashiach ("Birthpains/Birthpangs of the Messiah") which shall last a 'week', e.g. 7 years.


Quote:
the book of revelation spans the end times, where is the last trump in revelations, there is your answer
Not necessarily - see above.;)

Blessings.

Excellent! Absolutely excellent!


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

cwb
Jul 20th 2008, 08:35 PM
This is by golly the worst logic I have ever seen used in an internet forum.

And I have seen some terrible logic used.

Again if you can't respect the original post of USE SCRIPTURE TO PROVE PRE-TRIB DOCTRINE then be respectfull and leave.

The only thing you have added to this discussion is agitation, and it's not cool.

Do you have scripture to prove pre-trib doctrine?

Once again, I am not pre-trib. I might go back to pre-trib but at the moment I am not pre-trib. Also I find it very disrepectful of you to tell me to leave a thread.

Again, why would you require a pre-tribber to prove their viewpoint with scripture when you can't prove your viewpoint. If you are unwilling to discuss it, you should not have used the trumpets in your original post to supposedly disprove pre-trib. Again here is your original post.



The pre-tribulation

1 Corinthians 15:52 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Corinthians+15:52&version=9)(Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Corinthians+15&version=9)
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This verse right here clearly defines that after the seventh and final trumpet, that is when the rapture occurs. Not before the first trumpet, not somewhere in the middle, but only after the seventh trumpet.

I challenge those of the pre-tribulation belief to back up using scripture how the rapture occurs before the tribulation.



So you start a thread saying pre-trib is a fallacy. You use the trumpets to supposedly prove your point. Then you are unwilling to discuss the trumpets. The you tell me to leave the thread and accuse me of derailing a thread because I want to discuss what you said in your original post. Derailing a thread is when you discuss something completely different than what is in the original post.

theleast
Jul 20th 2008, 08:47 PM
Once again, I am not pre-trib. I might go back to pre-trib but at the moment I am not pre-trib. Also I find it very disrepectful of you to tell me to leave a thread.

Again, why would you require a pre-tribber to prove their viewpoint with scripture when you can't prove your viewpoint. If you are unwilling to discuss it, you should not have used the trumpets in your original post to supposedly disprove pre-trib. Again here is your original post.



So you start a thread saying pre-trib is a fallacy. You use the trumpets to supposedly prove your point. Then you are unwilling to discuss the trumpets. The you tell me to leave the thread and accuse me of derailing a thread because I want to discuss what you said in your original post. Derailing a thread is when you discuss something completely different than what is in the original post.

I am not unwilling to discuss the trumpets, I am willing to discuss them in the context of OP.

You have not provided any scripture to support the pre-trib position which is what I was hoping to get.

You have attempted to derail this thread with a red herring.

When you start a thread YOU can dictate the rules in the OP and HOPEFULLY people will show you the proper repsect and follow the rules for the discussion that YOU lay out.

I'm sorry but you are being rude. Don't worry though, I'm used to it. LOL

The scripture that I laid out is VERY plain in that at the last trump the dead are raised incorrupible ergo a rapture. It is at least the plainest scripture that I can find relating to the rapture. If you disagree say so and move on. But to continuously bring up unrelated points like a trumpet in exodus, and when the two beasts arise as somehow disproving post trib rapture is just attempting to derail. I will no longer be discussing anything with you in this thread, (because I have allowed you to draw me off topic), unless it is scripture related to the rapture and its position in the end time chronology. If you have scripture by all means POST IT! IF not then do the respectfull thing and stop derailing this topic, it is rude.

Remeber you can start your own threads, or challenge me in the arena one on one if you like. I will discuss anything and everything bible related with you if you do. I will not discuss anything off topic in this thread. I am done with this derailing of my topic. It is just so not cool.

cwb
Jul 20th 2008, 08:51 PM
That's what I say. Where in the world did that come from? Are we on the same planet?:confused


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-26018-0125_med.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


There have been a few posters (including the original post) that say the "last trump" in I Corinthians has to be the same as the seventh trump in Revelation. By that same logic, I would assume that the first trumpet in Revealtion would have to be that same trumpet as the first ever blown in the bible. From what I could tell the one in Exodus 19:16 was the first one ever blown in the bible. So by the same logic as the last trumpet in I cor 15 has to be the seventh in Revelation, Exodus 19:16 should be the same as the first trumpet in Revelation.

Yankee Candle
Jul 20th 2008, 08:54 PM
There have been a few posters (including the original post) that say the "last trump" in I Corinthians has to be the same as the seventh trump in Revelation. By that same logic, I would assume that the first trumpet in Revealtion would have to be that same trumpet as the first ever blown in the bible. From what I could tell the one in Exodus 19:16 was the first one ever blown in the bible. So by the same logic as the last trumpet in I cor 15 has to be the seventh in Revelation, Exodus 19:16 should be the same as the first trumpet in Revelation.

Well, I would ask you kindly to read what Clifton said in his last post above.

Have a nice day.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

cwb
Jul 20th 2008, 08:58 PM
Well, I would ask you kindly to read what Clifton said in his last post above.

Have a nice day.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


I did. I didn't really understand it.

cwb
Jul 20th 2008, 09:01 PM
The "Great Trump" (Shofar HaGadol) comes after what you see called in English "the last trump" (which is an idiom), for the Shofar HaGadol is greater than what is in the series of the other trumps, ("first trump", "last trump" which are related to left and right horns of the ram). ;)

The "Great Trump" (Shofar HaGadol) will be blown at the end of Chevlai shel Mashiach ("Birthpains/Birthpangs of the Messiah") which shall last a 'week', e.g. 7 years.



Not necessarily - see above.;)

Blessings.

Clifton, I didn't really understand what you wrote here. Sorry for being a little slow but what is (shofar Hagadol). Is that Greek? Also what did you mean by the left and right horn of the ram?

Clifton
Jul 20th 2008, 09:12 PM
Again if you can't respect the original post of USE SCRIPTURE TO PROVE PRE-TRIB DOCTRINE then be respectfull and leave.

Do you have scripture to prove pre-trib doctrine?

Here's the problem - if you were to ask where is there scripture(s) to prove that one should not steal, that would be simple. But what you ask takes more than mere scripture quotes, and it is a study of what is drawn from a whole lot of the Bible in the textual sense, and even then, you have to know idioms, expressions, and more, so it is not that simple as you ask;

Just as unfamiliar foreigners to the U.S.A. may be confused when they hear Americans call Thanksgiving Day, "Turkey Day" or "Pilgrims' Day," non-Jewish believers in Yeshua can be confused by the different terms;

Thus, it EVEN takes more than acquaintance with the underlying languages of the English Bibles, Hebrew and Greek - if that was all it took, that would be quite nice. And even with Greek, even the Greek Primacists will tell you there are Hebrew-Aramaic Idioms underlying the Greek. See how difficult my life is and the payload upon me? :P

Biblical/Hebrew Eschatology (including for things that are yet to happen) span from Genesis to Revelation. Yes, that is right, I said GENESIS. How early in Genesis? I'm not sure - I have seen chapter 37 noted and even earlier - Chapter 49 I know for sure, because it explicitly states 'the last days' in the 1st verse of that chapter.

That is why I provided you those more ancient and Hebrew terms in the previous post to help better in such a research - what you want for 'evidence', takes several pages, and even they have to be read more than once. ;)

Blessings.:)

theleast
Jul 20th 2008, 09:22 PM
There have been a few posters (including the original post) that say the "last trump" in I Corinthians has to be the same as the seventh trump in Revelation. By that same logic, I would assume that the first trumpet in Revealtion would have to be that same trumpet as the first ever blown in the bible. From what I could tell the one in Exodus 19:16 was the first one ever blown in the bible. So by the same logic as the last trumpet in I cor 15 has to be the seventh in Revelation, Exodus 19:16 should be the same as the first trumpet in Revelation.

That logic is silly. If we use that logic then all the trumpets were blown before Christ even came.

Joshua 6


1Now Jericho was straitly shut up because of the children of Israel: none went out, and none came in.
2And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.
3And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days.
4And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams' horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets.
5And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him.
6And Joshua the son of Nun called the priests, and said unto them, Take up the ark of the covenant, and let seven priests bear seven trumpets of rams' horns before the ark of the LORD.
7And he said unto the people, Pass on, and compass the city, and let him that is armed pass on before the ark of the LORD. 8And it came to pass, when Joshua had spoken unto the people, that the seven priests bearing the seven trumpets of rams' horns passed on before the LORD, and blew with the trumpets: and the ark of the covenant of the LORD followed them.

So I guess we could say then that the seven trumpets blown outside of Jericho were the seven trumpets of revelation?

theleast
Jul 20th 2008, 09:24 PM
Here's the problem - if you were to ask where is there scripture(s) to prove that one should not steal, that would be simple. But what you ask takes more than mere scripture quotes, and it is a study of what is drawn from a whole lot of the Bible in the textual sense, and even then, you have to know idioms, expressions, and more, so it is not that simple as you ask;

Just as unfamiliar foreigners to the U.S.A. may be confused when they hear Americans call Thanksgiving Day, "Turkey Day" or "Pilgrims' Day," non-Jewish believers in Yeshua can be confused by the different terms;

Thus, it EVEN takes more than acquaintance with the underlying languages of the English Bibles, Hebrew and Greek - if that was all it took, that would be quite nice. And even with Greek, even the Greek Primacists will tell you there are Hebrew-Aramaic Idioms underlying the Greek. See how difficult my life is and the payload upon me? :P

Biblical/Hebrew Eschatology (including for things that are yet to happen) span from Genesis to Revelation. Yes, that is right, I said GENESIS. How early in Genesis? I'm not sure - I have seen chapter 37 noted and even earlier - Chapter 49 I know for sure, because it explicitly states 'the last days' in the 1st verse of that chapter.

That is why I provided you those more ancient and Hebrew terms in the previous post to help better in such a research - what you want for 'evidence', takes several pages, and even they have to be read more than once. ;)

Blessings.:)

I knew it was not simple. I knew it could not be proven. That was EXACTLY my point.

However we do have scripture that states that at the LAST trump the rapture occurs. That is simple. That was also the point.

Clifton
Jul 20th 2008, 09:26 PM
Clifton, I didn't really understand what you wrote here. Sorry for being a little slow but what is (shofar Hagadol). Is that Greek? Also what did you mean by the left and right horn of the ram?


shofar Hagadol = The GREAT Trump. I won't go into that here since the would appear to derail the thread.

However, since saints are taken in the Natzal (at the blow of the "last trump"), or "rapture", well, the left horn of the ram that was caught in the thicket (Genesis 22:13) is called the first trump (shofar) and the right horn of the ram is called the last trump (shofar).

Let us get wild here... and pretend the ears can be blown by pulling on them and the human head is 'the ram' :) -
pull on your left ear - that is the first ear.
Now pull on your right ear - that is the last ear.

So the left is the first in a series of ears. The right is the last in that series.

So you see, the "first" and "last" here are idioms.

I would have fixed you a baked potato too, if I knew you were coming over. :D

Blessings.

Yankee Candle
Jul 20th 2008, 09:37 PM
Here's the problem - if you were to ask where is there scripture(s) to prove that one should not steal, that would be simple. But what you ask takes more than mere scripture quotes, and it is a study of what is drawn from a whole lot of the Bible in the textual sense, and even then, you have to know idioms, expressions, and more, so it is not that simple as you ask;

Just as unfamiliar foreigners to the U.S.A. may be confused when they hear Americans call Thanksgiving Day, "Turkey Day" or "Pilgrims' Day," non-Jewish believers in Yeshua can be confused by the different terms;

Thus, it EVEN takes more than acquaintance with the underlying languages of the English Bibles, Hebrew and Greek - if that was all it took, that would be quite nice. And even with Greek, even the Greek Primacists will tell you there are Hebrew-Aramaic Idioms underlying the Greek. See how difficult my life is and the payload upon me? :P

Biblical/Hebrew Eschatology (including for things that are yet to happen) span from Genesis to Revelation. Yes, that is right, I said GENESIS. How early in Genesis? I'm not sure - I have seen chapter 37 noted and even earlier - Chapter 49 I know for sure, because it explicitly states 'the last days' in the 1st verse of that chapter.

That is why I provided you those more ancient and Hebrew terms in the previous post to help better in such a research - what you want for 'evidence', takes several pages, and even they have to be read more than once. ;)

Blessings.:)

What Clifton is talking about is understanding the scripture in a 4 dimensional sense and not with just a flat theology. It is the way an engineer looks at blueprints. He looks at depth, width, length, etc. and he considers the time that each element of the structure must be placed in the building he is constructing.

Example: "The trumpter blew the last trumpet"

But does the 'last trumpet' mean the very last note sounded or was he simply the last trumpeteer in a great line of trumpeters? Anyone not seeing it in person would have to inquire of the witnesses who saw it in order to come to the right conclusion. That is why we compare scripture with scripture and look up definitions, study the nuances, and idioms that must be taken into consideration.

Clifton and I may not agree on everything but he has made a great point in this continuing debate.

May God richly bless each of you.


http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-shevach-3233.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

Clifton
Jul 20th 2008, 09:38 PM
I knew it was not simple. I knew it could not be proven. That was EXACTLY my point.

However we do have scripture that states that at the LAST trump the rapture occurs. That is simple. That was also the point.

“And if your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. For it is better for you that one of your members perish, than for your entire body to be thrown into Gehenna. “And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you. For it is better for you that one of your members perish, than for your entire body to be thrown into Gehenna.
Matthew 5:29-30 The Scriptures 1998+

We rest our case. :D

Blessings.

quiet dove
Jul 20th 2008, 09:43 PM
last trump just like scripture says.

so there cant be any trumps after the final trump , hope that helps. if you think the "rapture" happens then some trumps blow, its not the last trump.

the book of revelation spans the end times, where is the last trump in revelations, there is your answer


So the first trumpet in Revelation is the same trumpet as the trumpet in Exodus 19:16?
:lol:


It is a ...stop sowing the seeds of confusion in my thread...PLEASE!

I'm sorry, I don't know why all the upset, trumpets was brought up and the logic was stated, the seventh trumpet must be the same as the last because the seventh is the last one mentioned, so the same logic applied to the first trumpet was applied to Exodus.

And trumpets were brought in by the OP, so why are they off topic?

1 Corinthians 15:52 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1%20Corinthians+ 15:52&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1%20Corinthians+ 15&version=9)
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This verse right here clearly defines that after the seventh and final trumpet, that is when the rapture occurs. Not before the first trumpet, not somewhere in the middle, but only after the seventh trumpet.

I challenge those of the pre-tribulation belief to back up using scripture how the rapture occurs before the tribulation.

Yankee Candle
Jul 20th 2008, 10:01 PM
"This verse right here clearly defines that after the seventh and final trumpet, that is when the rapture occurs. Not before the first trumpet, not somewhere in the middle, but only after the seventh trumpet.

I challenge those of the pre-tribulation belief to back up using scripture how the rapture occurs before the tribulation."

Whoosh! It went right over his/her head.

First/last, right/left, up/down, beginning/end

I am the last trumpeteer, but I blew my trumpet first.

I am on the far right, but to the crowd viewing I am on the left.

I begin the ceremony, though I am at the end of the line.

Clifton's thoughts on this point are light years ahead of the critics.

http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-26018-0125_med.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

theleast
Jul 20th 2008, 11:51 PM
:lol:



I'm sorry, I don't know why all the upset, trumpets was brought up and the logic was stated, the seventh trumpet must be the same as the last because the seventh is the last one mentioned, so the same logic applied to the first trumpet was applied to Exodus.

And trumpets were brought in by the OP, so why are they off topic?

quietdove, you know as well as I do that the seven trumpets of revelation are what we are talking about here.

The last trumpet blown in sequence HAS to be that of revelation. There are 6 trumpets preceeding that, that are all accounted for in the same book.

What on earth does the trumpet from that book in Exodus have to do with this topic?

theleast
Jul 20th 2008, 11:53 PM
"This verse right here clearly defines that after the seventh and final trumpet, that is when the rapture occurs. Not before the first trumpet, not somewhere in the middle, but only after the seventh trumpet.

I challenge those of the pre-tribulation belief to back up using scripture how the rapture occurs before the tribulation."

Whoosh! It went right over his/her head.

First/last, right/left, up/down, beginning/end

I am the last trumpeteer, but I blew my trumpet first.

I am on the far right, but to the crowd viewing I am on the left.

I begin the ceremony, though I am at the end of the line.

Clifton's thoughts on this point are light years ahead of the critics.

http://www.jewish-art.org/image-files/kiddush-cup-26018-0125_med.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


That is just making this topic much more complicated than it needs to be. We are not talking about what order they are standing in but in what order they are blown.

cwb
Jul 21st 2008, 12:04 AM
I knew it was not simple. I knew it could not be proven. That was EXACTLY my point.



So your heart was never to learn but to bash pre-tribbers and back them into a corner?

theleast
Jul 21st 2008, 12:29 AM
So your heart was never to learn but to bash pre-tribbers and back them into a corner?

No it was to make them think about doctrine that doesn't exist in the bible.

quiet dove
Jul 21st 2008, 12:47 AM
quietdove, you know as well as I do that the seven trumpets of revelation are what we are talking about here.

The last trumpet blown in sequence HAS to be that of revelation. There are 6 trumpets preceeding that, that are all accounted for in the same book.

What on earth does the trumpet from that book in Exodus have to do with this topic?


I'm sorry, I was just playing with you guys, I thought it was funny. I didn't mean any harm or to upset you guys.:hug:

theleast
Jul 21st 2008, 12:51 AM
I'm sorry, I was just playing with you guys, I thought it was funny. I didn't mean any harm or to upset you guys.:hug:

LOL I thought you were serious.

No worries, I don't get upset.

Mark F
Jul 21st 2008, 01:38 AM
As everyone always says, show me with Scripture how you connect the rapture to;


Revelation 11:15-19
Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:


“ We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

cwb
Jul 21st 2008, 01:42 AM
quietdove, you know as well as I do that the seven trumpets of revelation are what we are talking about here.

The last trumpet blown in sequence HAS to be that of revelation. There are 6 trumpets preceeding that, that are all accounted for in the same book.

What on earth does the trumpet from that book in Exodus have to do with this topic?


So then the trumpet in I Cor 15 has nothing to do with the trumpets in Revelation?

theleast
Jul 21st 2008, 01:55 AM
So then the trumpet in I Cor 15 has nothing to do with the trumpets in Revelation?

Why would you say that?

Mark F
Jul 21st 2008, 01:58 AM
So then the trumpet in I Cor 15 has nothing to do with the trumpets in Revelation?

I say no, as Clifton pointed out it was a Hebrew idiom that Paul is referring to.

The last trump is referring to the last in a series of trumpet blasts on the Feast of Trumpets. The trumpets in Revelation are proclomations of judgment not salvation or in gathering.

Jesus literally fulfilled the spring feasts, dosen't it logically follow that He will literally fulfill the fall (fruit harvest) feasts?

Yankee Candle
Jul 21st 2008, 02:33 AM
No it was to make them think about doctrine that doesn't exist in the bible.

That is total baloney. The only teaching of scripture is the pretribulation rapture. The last trump that brings on the rapture may have nothing whatever to do with the 7 trumpets of Revelation because that trumpet ends an entire age: the age of grace.

Not only so but there is NO rapture after the 7th trumpet in Revelation so such theology is just dead wrong.


http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/UNY/UNY166/u13784142.jpg


Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

Mark F
Jul 21st 2008, 02:42 AM
That is total baloney. The only teaching of scripture is the pretribulation rapture. The last trump that brings on the rapture may have nothing whatever to do with the 7 trumpets of Revelation because that trumpet ends an entire age: the age of grace.

Not only so but there is NO rapture after the 7th trumpet in Revelation so such theology is just dead wrong.


http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/UNY/UNY166/u13784142.jpg


Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


I would have to repectfully disagree with you, the Church age will end, but the grace that God will show Israel and many others in that great and terrible day will eclipse the grace we experience today.

Mark F
Jul 21st 2008, 02:58 AM
This thread talks about the feasts.


http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=128445

There are links that are informative, yes they are from pre-trib preachers but the feasts are explained well.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 21st 2008, 03:11 AM
That is total baloney. The only teaching of scripture is the pretribulation rapture. The last trump that brings on the rapture may have nothing whatever to do with the 7 trumpets of Revelation because that trumpet ends an entire age: the age of grace.

Not only so but there is NO rapture after the 7th trumpet in Revelation so such theology is just dead wrong.Your continued repeated assertions to this effect do not contribute to your case. You are very willing to insultingly dismiss other positions that are held just as sincerely as your own by people who love the Lord very dearly, but you refuse to deal with objections that have been offered regarding the Pre-Trib Rapture and only continue to repeat your already-stated-and-rejected arguments. It's difficult to take such an approach seriously until you begin dealing with the details of the discussion and start remembering that, whoever is right and whoever is wrong, we're all still going to wind up in the Kingdom together. Please don't forget that.

Luke
Former Die-Hard Pre-Tribber

Yankee Candle
Jul 21st 2008, 03:15 AM
I would have to repectfully disagree with you, the Church age will end, but the grace that God will show Israel and many others in that great and terrible day will eclipse the grace we experience today.

The age of grace comes to an end with that last trump. The time of judgment begins. Of course, sinners are always saved by grace in whatever age they live in, but during that time, God's patience is over and the wicked are judged swiftly.

The last trump of I Corinthians 15 is not one of the seven trumpets of Revelation, but it has to do with the trumpets that blow on Rosh Hoshanah, the day the trumpets (plural) blew throughout the land of Israel. It was a celebration of the harvest but it was immediately followed by the time of mourning or 'days of awe'. This perfectly matches the pre-tribulation rapture position and the day of judgment that follows. Nothing else does.

"A memorial of blowing of trumpets, i.e. solemnized with the blowing of trumpets by the priests; not in a common way, as they did every first day of every month, Nu 10:10, but in an extraordinary manner, not only in Jerusalem, but in all the cities of Israel." Matthew Poole commentary on the Bible.

John Wesley's commentary says, "They began to blow at sun-rise, and continued blowing till sun-set."

Jamieson, Faucett, & Brown say: " Jewish writers say that the trumpets were sounded thirty successive times, and the reason for the institution was for the double purpose of announcing the commencement of the new year."

This is all very revealing for in the blowing of those thirty trumpets...one of them was the LAST trump!

http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/UNY/UNY166/u13784142.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

Yankee Candle
Jul 21st 2008, 03:18 AM
Luke, I will try to say it nicely, and respectfully. You have no case.

http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/UNY/UNY166/u13784142.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

Literalist-Luke
Jul 21st 2008, 03:53 AM
Luke, I will try to say it nicely, and respectfully. You have no case.So what did Jesus mean here?

Luke 21:25-28 - "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

He is telling the disciples that their redemption draws near when there are signs in the sun, moon, and stars (which sounds remarkably like Revelation's Sixth Seal), nations are in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea, people are fainting from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, and they (the world) see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. That's when Jesus says the disciples' redemption draws near and they are to "lift up their heads". What does redemption mean if not Jesus coming for them? And if they're already in heaven coming back with Jesus, wouldn't they be looking down at the earth, not lifting up their heads at the sky to see Jesus appear?

(And don't repeat your quote of Matthew 24:42 or Mark 13:33. That has already been dealt with in this thread. It's time for you to deal with Luke 21:25-28.)

theleast
Jul 21st 2008, 04:27 AM
So what did Jesus mean here?

Luke 21:25-28 - "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

He is telling the disciples that their redemption draws near when there are signs in the sun, moon, and stars (which sounds remarkably like Revelation's Sixth Seal), nations are in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea, people are fainting from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, and they (the world) see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. That's when Jesus says the disciples' redemption draws near and they are to "lift up their heads". What does redemption mean if not Jesus coming for them? And if they're already in heaven coming back with Jesus, wouldn't they be looking down at the earth, not lifting up their heads at the sky to see Jesus appear?

(And don't repeat your quote of Matthew 24:42 or Mark 13:33. That has already been dealt with in this thread. It's time for you to deal with Luke 21:25-28.)

Excellent post Luke.

Yet more evidence that when Jesus comes after the tribulation, that is when the rapture happens.

There is scripture that points to this doctrine. There remains NO scripture that points to a pre-tribulation rapture.

I will however take a look at the feasts in scripture as it seems to keep coming up.

wpm
Jul 21st 2008, 04:33 AM
That is total baloney. The only teaching of scripture is the pretribulation rapture. The last trump that brings on the rapture may have nothing whatever to do with the 7 trumpets of Revelation because that trumpet ends an entire age: the age of grace.

Not only so but there is NO rapture after the 7th trumpet in Revelation so such theology is just dead wrong.


http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/UNY/UNY166/u13784142.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


You must build your belief on a biblical foundation. So far you have provide nothing. Please address the question you have been skirting around and refrain from personal opinion. Please produce Scripture to cover this theory.

Can you show us one single Scripture that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

Paul (another former Pretribber)

Yankee Candle
Jul 21st 2008, 05:43 AM
Excellent post Luke.

Yet more evidence that when Jesus comes after the tribulation, that is when the rapture happens.

There is scripture that points to this doctrine. There remains NO scripture that points to a pre-tribulation rapture.

I will however take a look at the feasts in scripture as it seems to keep coming up.

The passage in question refers to the redemption of those who have been converted to Christ DURING the tribulation, not to the saints who are already in heaven with Jesus enjoying the great celestial wedding feast.

"And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready."

The pre-tribulation rapture is the only teaching of scripture about our future.

Study closely the feast days of Leviticus 23 and see how they clearly symbolize the great events of Christ's death/burial/resurrection/pentecost/rapture/tribulation/millenium...in that order. When the trumpet blows for Rosh Hoshanah (Sept 12th or 13th), then the time of the 'days of awe' and mourning over sin begins for the Jews.

You cannot get around this.... I Corinthians 15:51-52 is the trumpet of Rosh Hoshanah, not the seventh trumpet of Rev. 11. There is no rapture following the 7th trumpet.

http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/STK/STK021/PCL15941.jpg

Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!

talmidim
Jul 21st 2008, 09:16 AM
Peace and Well Being to All,

It looks as though things are starting to settle down a bit in this thread. And I feel as though I might be able to get a word in edgewise without being summarily dismissed. It would be understandable though, because my view falls well outside of traditional teachings concerning the end of the age and the coming of the Lord. They are however, well within the literal reading of scripture, the generally accepted doctrine of the character of the Almighty and His relationship to His word.

Since the OP specifically asks for scriptures in support of the pre-tribulation rapture and the fact that I agree that there is such a thing, I will comply. But I would first stipulate that a pre-tribulation rapture does not preclude a mid-trib, a post trib, nor in fact does it preclude a post millennial rapture. And I would first like to make my case in support of my non-traditional viewpoint. As all good doctrine is proved, I will ask and answer certain questions; and those answers are the foundation upon which I will make my case.

I would also like to state from the outset, that I do not seek to change anyones mind here. I am simply stating my beliefs concerning the OP and how I came by them. And while I will answer civil queries, sincerely put to me, I will not enter into a debate.

My view of this topic, like my understanding of all holy things of scripture, is rooted in my understanding of the nature and character of the Almighty. Hence my first question: is it possible to attribute a doctrine of scripture to the Father that runs counter to what He has revealed about His character and His nature and the order of priority of those attributes? And my answer is 'No'. Once you fully comprehend what He has revealed about Himself, any doctrine derived from His word that would portray the Father counter to what we know of Him, must be false.

My task then becomes for me to qualify what scripture reveals about His nature in the order of priority that He reveals. So I ask a series of questions. And while the list is incomplete, it is sufficient to prove my point:


Is God love personified? The answer 'Yes!' is confirmed in every way in scripture.

Then is He not merciful? And again, the answer remains the same.

So I ask, is He not righteous in all of His ways? And once again the answer is an affirmative.

But I must establish also a priority of characteristics if I can. And that begs the question, is there any one thing in scripture that reveals a characteristic of the Almighty as having precedence over all others? Once again the answer is 'Yes'. For it is written that He has magnified His word above all His name. And I take this to mean among other things, that He puts a higher priority on His word being true that any other revealed attribute of His nature. And it stands to reason that any conclusion that I draw from scripture must conform to these things we know about Him. So I will restate what we already know: If I entertain a doctrine that does not fully reflect these characteristics in the order of priority that He has revealed through His word about Himself and His word, then that doctrine must be false.

I hope I do not have to post chapter and verse for the conclusions that I have illustrated here. I am sure that everyone on this board is familiar with many scripture that support these very basic doctrines. But I will if asked.

The most basic argument against a pre-tribulation rapture is rooted in the concept that we as Christians are to suffer. That I cannot argue. There is a great deal of scripture to support that view. And there are those that say, 'what He brings us to, He will bring us through'. And though this is a bit more tenuous in my view than the former argument, I will not contest it. But there are also those that say that He will not suffer His righteous to suffer His wrath. And to this, I must agree. He will chasten those that He loves, but His children are not appointed to His wrath, agreed? Once again this is basic stuff. Need scripture? Just ask. But I am sure that any sincere student of His word is familiar with these scriptures anyway.

Well having come this far in my examination of the topic, I felt led to ask, Are there different judgments for different groups of people? And again the answer is obvious. It is yes.

Our Father treats people differently depending on a number of things. He has made promises to those that have a covenant relationship with Him. And within that group, He treat those that keep His covenants differently than those that break His covenants.

There are those persons that do not have a relationship with Him. He has said that He would that all be saved. But there are still no special promises for those that have not decided for Him. With me so far?

There is that special group of beings that are decidedly evil. Fallen angels, unclean spirits, people that worship the beast - I'm sure you get the picture. And I'm sure that you agree that He has something different for each group of people described here.

To briefly recap, this breaks out into four different groups:


Those who keep covenant.
Those who break covenant.
Those with no covenant.
And the evil among us, both spiritual and physical.

And I have to ask, to whom would a rapture apply, pre-tribulation or otherwise? Care to hazard a guess? Well if you said, 'His righteous' or 'those that keep His covenants', I would be forced to agree. And my reason would be simple. His righteous are not appointed to wrath. So what about the rest of His covenant children? What about the rest of the list? Aha! This is where things get interesting...

If the 'righteous' are raptured, is there specific judgments for the covenant breakers, the undecided and the evil? I believe that those are the judgments of the seals, the trumpets and the cups of His wrath specified in the Revelation. And does this view align with what we know of the nature and character of the Almighty Father, His Perfect Son and His Holy Spirit? I would have to say yes. Because His covenant breakers are still given a way to achieve the glory that He has promised, though the path is more difficult. The undecided are given an opportunity to decide for Him and be saved. And the evil do not escape His righteous and just wrath.

But before we go too far in examining the rest of the list, let's get back to the OP. Our esteemed host wished for us to address one scripture in particular. And I would like to do this in part right now.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In all fairness, our host emphasized the trumpet and the phrase the 'last trump', but I wanted to direct your attention to Paul's intended audience and the object of this scripture. Of the groups that I outlined above, which do you think that the 'we' in this scripture addresses? Does it speak of the evil or the unrighteous or the undecided? No, of course not. He is both addressing and speaking of covenant keeping believers that are dedicated to the Messiah. No one else. Associated scripture reveals the same emphasis. Please note:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In these verses, the resurrection is not all the dead, it is 'the dead in Christ'. And the 'we' in these verses is specific to the righteous of the Lord. This is not a meaningless distinction. Because there is another resurrection of the flesh spoken of in Ezekiel. And it is another covenant bunch. And they are decidedly not 'the dead in Christ'. Because it states that they are all the children of Israel. And there is another resurrection spoken of in the Revelation that is specific to all flesh at the end of the age. Besides, the Revelation specifically distinguishes between the 'first resurrection' and all others.

So I have to ask, Is there a possibility that there might be some righteous, covenant keeping people in those other resurrections? Because if the answer is yes, then it would raise the possibility of more 'raptures' too.

My point is simple. Most people that study the end time events do not account for these distinctions. They tend to lump 'believers' into the same group as the 'righteous'. And I don't believe that is the case. It's like the scriptures teach, even the demons believe in the Messiah. So in my estimation, belief is no 'free ride' to the rapture of the saints. Not is a covenant relationship. It must apply only to those that are righteous before the Lord.

I believe that I can make a case for a pre, mid, and post tribulation rapture and resurrection and a post millennial resurrection and rapture too. If you would like for me to expand on my understanding of this topic and the judgments that are specified in the Revelation of our Lord, I'll check in later. In the mean time, be well and be blessed.

In His Love,
Phillip

theleast
Jul 21st 2008, 01:18 PM
Peace and Well Being to All,

It looks as though things are starting to settle down a bit in this thread. And I feel as though I might be able to get a word in edgewise without being summarily dismissed. It would be understandable though, because my view falls well outside of traditional teachings concerning the end of the age and the coming of the Lord. They are however, well within the literal reading of scripture, the generally accepted doctrine of the character of the Almighty and His relationship to His word.

Since the OP specifically asks for scriptures in support of the pre-tribulation rapture and the fact that I agree that there is such a thing, I will comply. But I would first stipulate that a pre-tribulation rapture does not preclude a mid-trib, a post trib, nor in fact does it preclude a post millennial rapture. And I would first like to make my case in support of my non-traditional viewpoint. As all good doctrine is proved, I will ask and answer certain questions; and those answers are the foundation upon which I will make my case.

I would also like to state from the outset, that I do not seek to change anyones mind here. I am simply stating my beliefs concerning the OP and how I came by them. And while I will answer civil queries, sincerely put to me, I will not enter into a debate.

My view of this topic, like my understanding of all holy things of scripture, is rooted in my understanding of the nature and character of the Almighty. Hence my first question: is it possible to attribute a doctrine of scripture to the Father that runs counter to what He has revealed about His character and His nature and the order of priority of those attributes? And my answer is 'No'. Once you fully comprehend what He has revealed about Himself, any doctrine derived from His word that would portray the Father counter to what we know of Him, must be false.

My task then becomes for me to qualify what scripture reveals about His nature in the order of priority that He reveals. So I ask a series of questions. And while the list is incomplete, it is sufficient to prove my point:


Is God love personified? The answer 'Yes!' is confirmed in every way in scripture.

Then is He not merciful? And again, the answer remains the same.

So I ask, is He not righteous in all of His ways? And once again the answer is an affirmative.
But I must establish also a priority of characteristics if I can. And that begs the question, is there any one thing in scripture that reveals a characteristic of the Almighty as having precedence over all others? Once again the answer is 'Yes'. For it is written that He has magnified His word above all His name. And I take this to mean among other things, that He puts a higher priority on His word being true that any other revealed attribute of His nature. And it stands to reason that any conclusion that I draw from scripture must conform to these things we know about Him. So I will restate what we already know: If I entertain a doctrine that does not fully reflect these characteristics in the order of priority that He has revealed through His word about Himself and His word, then that doctrine must be false.

I hope I do not have to post chapter and verse for the conclusions that I have illustrated here. I am sure that everyone on this board is familiar with many scripture that support these very basic doctrines. But I will if asked.

The most basic argument against a pre-tribulation rapture is rooted in the concept that we as Christians are to suffer. That I cannot argue. There is a great deal of scripture to support that view. And there are those that say, 'what He brings us to, He will bring us through'. And though this is a bit more tenuous in my view than the former argument, I will not contest it. But there are also those that say that He will not suffer His righteous to suffer His wrath. And to this, I must agree. He will chasten those that He loves, but His children are not appointed to His wrath, agreed? Once again this is basic stuff. Need scripture? Just ask. But I am sure that any sincere student of His word is familiar with these scriptures anyway.

Well having come this far in my examination of the topic, I felt led to ask, Are there different judgments for different groups of people? And again the answer is obvious. It is yes.

Our Father treats people differently depending on a number of things. He has made promises to those that have a covenant relationship with Him. And within that group, He treat those that keep His covenants differently than those that break His covenants.

There are those persons that do not have a relationship with Him. He has said that He would that all be saved. But there are still no special promises for those that have not decided for Him. With me so far?

There is that special group of beings that are decidedly evil. Fallen angels, unclean spirits, people that worship the beast - I'm sure you get the picture. And I'm sure that you agree that He has something different for each group of people described here.

To briefly recap, this breaks out into four different groups:


Those who keep covenant.
Those who break covenant.
Those with no covenant.
And the evil among us, both spiritual and physical.
And I have to ask, to whom would a rapture apply, pre-tribulation or otherwise? Care to hazard a guess? Well if you said, 'His righteous' or 'those that keep His covenants', I would be forced to agree. And my reason would be simple. His righteous are not appointed to wrath. So what about the rest of His covenant children? What about the rest of the list? Aha! This is where things get interesting...

If the 'righteous' are raptured, is there specific judgments for the covenant breakers, the undecided and the evil? I believe that those are the judgments of the seals, the trumpets and the cups of His wrath specified in the Revelation. And does this view align with what we know of the nature and character of the Almighty Father, His Perfect Son and His Holy Spirit? I would have to say yes. Because His covenant breakers are still given a way to achieve the glory that He has promised, though the path is more difficult. The undecided are given an opportunity to decide for Him and be saved. And the evil do not escape His righteous and just wrath.

But before we go too far in examining the rest of the list, let's get back to the OP. Our esteemed host wished for us to address one scripture in particular. And I would like to do this in part right now.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In all fairness, our host emphasized the trumpet and the phrase the 'last trump', but I wanted to direct your attention to Paul's intended audience and the object of this scripture. Of the groups that I outlined above, which do you think that the 'we' in this scripture addresses? Does it speak of the evil or the unrighteous or the undecided? No, of course not. He is both addressing and speaking of covenant keeping believers that are dedicated to the Messiah. No one else. Associated scripture reveals the same emphasis. Please note:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In these verses, the resurrection is not all the dead, it is 'the dead in Christ'. And the 'we' in these verses is specific to the righteous of the Lord. This is not a meaningless distinction. Because there is another resurrection of the flesh spoken of in Ezekiel. And it is another covenant bunch. And they are decidedly not 'the dead in Christ'. Because it states that they are all the children of Israel. And there is another resurrection spoken of in the Revelation that is specific to all flesh at the end of the age. Besides, the Revelation specifically distinguishes between the 'first resurrection' and all others.

So I have to ask, Is there a possibility that there might be some righteous, covenant keeping people in those other resurrections? Because if the answer is yes, then it would raise the possibility of more 'raptures' too.

My point is simple. Most people that study the end time events do not account for these distinctions. They tend to lump 'believers' into the same group as the 'righteous'. And I don't believe that is the case. It's like the scriptures teach, even the demons believe in the Messiah. So in my estimation, belief is no 'free ride' to the rapture of the saints. Not is a covenant relationship. It must apply only to those that are righteous before the Lord.

I believe that I can make a case for a pre, mid, and post tribulation rapture and resurrection and a post millennial resurrection and rapture too. If you would like for me to expand on my understanding of this topic and the judgments that are specified in the Revelation of our Lord, I'll check in later. In the mean time, be well and be blessed.

In His Love,
Phillip




Pretty interesting post. I would have to agree with most of it.

The only part I can't agree with is the pre-tribulation rapture as there is no scriptural basis for it.

The one thing that you did point out that I would like people to understand is that being a part of the tribulation does not mean that you are suffering the wrath of God. That is important for people to understand. There is suffering and wrath and they are not the same.

That is why the servents of God are sealed before the trumpets blow. Take a look here.

1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

And these servents are sealed to protect them from the wrath of God as shown here in these verses...

1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

2And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

I think people fall into the pre-tribulation doctrine simply because of fear.

1. Fear of God, (thats a good thing) ;)
2. Fear of seeing those they love that are not sealed suffering.
3. Fear of losing all of their fleshly attachments.

That is why Christ warns us in these verses against such attachments...

Luke 14:26 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Luke+14:26&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Luke+14&version=9)
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

And still nobody has provided me with the one thing I asked for....scripture pointing to a pre-trib rapture.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 21st 2008, 02:29 PM
The passage in question refers to the redemption of those who have been converted to Christ DURING the tribulation, not to the saints who are already in heaven with Jesus enjoying the great celestial wedding feast.This is an argument that is commonly offered by Pre-Tribbers, including me when I used to be a Pre-Tribber. Could you explain to me how the 12 were to understand that Jesus was not even speaking of them? If they are included in a group that was not even going to be affected by what Jesus was saying at the moment of the Olivet Discourse, where in the Bible did Jesus ever specify that? I'll need chapter and verse.
"And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready."The "supper time" spoken of here is the wedding feast that takes place in the Millennium, which fits just fine with the Post-Trib Rapture.
The pre-tribulation rapture is the only teaching of scripture about our future.Yet another opinion statement. "The proof is in the pudding", not somebody's opinion.
Study closely the feast days of Leviticus 23 and see how they clearly symbolize the great events of Christ's death/burial/resurrection/pentecost/rapture/tribulation/millenium...in that order.No, the order is death/burial/resurrection/pentecost/2nd Coming-Rapture/Salvation of Israel/Millennium's start.
When the trumpet blows for Rosh Hoshanah (Sept 12th or 13th), then the time of the 'days of awe' and mourning over sin begins for the Jews.That's funny, because Moses said "mourning over sin" was supposed to be associated with Yom Kippur, not Rosh Hoshanah. Rosh Hoshanah is a celebration, not a time of mourning.
You cannot get around this.... I Corinthians 15:51-52 is the trumpet of Rosh Hoshanah, not the seventh trumpet of Rev. 11. There is no rapture following the 7th trumpet.I just did "get around it".

So how were the 12 supposed to know that Jesus wasn't speaking of them in Luke 21:25-28?

cwb
Jul 21st 2008, 03:33 PM
I believe that I can make a case for a pre, mid, and post tribulation rapture and resurrection and a post millennial resurrection and rapture too. If you would like for me to expand on my understanding of this topic and the judgments that are specified in the Revelation of our Lord, I'll check in later. In the mean time, be well and be blessed.

In His Love,
Phillip




I would like you to expand on this. Also just for clarification, are you saying there is a pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib rapture? I too believe I could make a case for all three depending on how I interpret certain scriptures. That being said I have always believed on one could be right.

cwb
Jul 21st 2008, 03:42 PM
I think people fall into the pre-tribulation doctrine simply because of fear.

1. Fear of God, (thats a good thing) ;)
2. Fear of seeing those they love that are not sealed suffering.
3. Fear of losing all of their fleshly attachments.

.


yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. Right. O.K.:rolleyes: Now I understand why pre-tribbers are pre-trib.

cwb
Jul 21st 2008, 03:45 PM
So how were the 12 supposed to know that Jesus wasn't speaking of them in Luke 21:25-28?

In the context, it looks to me like He was speaking of Jerusalem and the redemption of Jerusalem.

theleast
Jul 21st 2008, 03:46 PM
yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. Right. O.K.:rolleyes: Now I understand why pre-tribbers are pre-trib.

Good then, now we can get on with breaking this bad doctrine that you understand WHY they are pre-trib.

Got that scripture yet? :P

talmidim
Jul 21st 2008, 03:58 PM
Pretty interesting post. I would have to agree with most of it.

The only part I can't agree with is the pre-tribulation rapture as there is no scriptural basis for it.

The one thing that you did point out that I would like people to understand is that being a part of the tribulation does not mean that you are suffering the wrath of God. That is important for people to understand. There is suffering and wrath and they are not the same.

That is why the servents of God are sealed before the trumpets blow. Take a look here.

1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

And these servents are sealed to protect them from the wrath of God as shown here in these verses...

1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

2And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

I think people fall into the pre-tribulation doctrine simply because of fear.

1. Fear of God, (thats a good thing) ;)
2. Fear of seeing those they love that are not sealed suffering.
3. Fear of losing all of their fleshly attachments.

That is why Christ warns us in these verses against such attachments...

Luke 14:26 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Luke+14:26&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Luke+14&version=9)
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

And still nobody has provided me with the one thing I asked for....scripture pointing to a pre-trib rapture.Greetings and Blessings Brother,

So you and I agree on much. This is good. How pleasant it is when brothers dwell together [in agreement]. You and I agree that His disciples will suffer, some more than others. But we also agree that they are not appointed to His wrath. We also agree that there are more than one resurrection and possibly more than one rapture as well. It is an interesting thought, isn't it?

I take it you are not swayed by the contextual argument offered to you concerning the trumpets. And that you are firmly committed to the presumption that the 'last trump' in fact aligns with the last of the seven trumpets listed in the book of the Revelation.

I must tell you, I have personal knowledge that the trumpet blasts associated with different Temple services and feast days and the various utilitarian application, like the various calls to assemble, did indeed have individual names. But I don't intend to belabor the point. Suffice to say that the names man gives to various things can be deceiving if taken on face value.

I also take it that you believe the sealed of God spoken of in chapter seven, to be for the righteous in Messiah. As you might guess, my perspective differs slightly. And I still have questions. For instance:

The plain meaning of the text of chapter seven describes those people as sealed out of the twelve tribes of Israel. And it does not appear to include any of the gentile believers such as the righteous Corinthians or Thessalonians that Paul addressed in the scriptures. The same scriptures that you and I quoted. So I have more questions.

Since they are not included among the sealed of the Living God, yet they clearly are the audience of Paul's revelation and prophecy concerning their end, wouldn't they have to be accounted for? You believe that they must wait for the last of the trumpet judgments. I don't think so and here are a couple of reasons why I believe that is the case.

There is no place in scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, where angels are given crowns. Nor are they ever, in any text referred to as 'Elders'. That is a term reserved for people of special office within His covenant people. And crowns are rewards given to those overcomers that rule and reign as priest and kings with the Master. These Elders that wear crowns describe the leaders of the brethren and the leaders of the twelve tribes. And we know who twelve of the twenty-four are.

The Master promised that His disciples would rule over the twelve tribes of Israel. And that they were not included among the 'firstfruits' of the resurrected that occurred in Jerusalem at the time of His crucifixion. That means that they must have been among the 'dead in Christ' mentioned in my previous post.

Since they are included among the Elders of the tribes of Israel and occupy 12 of the twenty-four thrones, how did they get to the Throne room in the Temple in heaven before the judgment of the seals were opened? And if they are resurrected, aren't the rest of the 'dead in Christ' included in that resurrection?

Now please keep in mind that a case can be made for mid-trib and post-trib as well as post-millenial raptures too (to include all those that lived until the last judgment). But that only accounts for three of the four groups I described. So for the reasons I have included, I think that His disciples, His righteous, and all the rest of the dead in Christ, are there in the Throne room before the seals are opened. And don't the seals in every popular scenario either precede or coincide with the trumpets?

In His love,
Phillip

vinsight4u8
Jul 21st 2008, 04:00 PM
That is total baloney. The only teaching of scripture is the pretribulation rapture. The last trump that brings on the rapture may have nothing whatever to do with the 7 trumpets of Revelation because that trumpet ends an entire age: the age of grace.

Not only so but there is NO rapture after the 7th trumpet in Revelation so such theology is just dead wrong.


http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/UNY/UNY166/u13784142.jpg



Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!


If you go look at Rev. 11 what woe does it show the two witnesses rise during?

second woe - when they are slain

or the hour - the same as a great earthquake

Isn't the earthquake hour the third woe?

The angel takes John from the measuring for a new temple alllllll through the second and third woes.

Then John hears the 7th trumpet - so what happens?

What are we to understand is the third woe?

John146
Jul 21st 2008, 04:19 PM
I answered this one before but I will briefly answer again.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ as seen by John (1:19) is broken down into three time periods, "that which thou hast seen" (Chapter one), "things which are" (Chapters two & three), and "the things which shall be hereafter" (Chapters 4-22).

John's personal rapture in 4:1-2 prefigures the rapture of all living saints just prior to the tribulation and chapters four and five of Rev. reveal to us what we will see when the Lord takes us up to meet with Him. The rapture of the saints should be placed right there.

There is no rapture mentioned in any other place except for the two witnesses (chapter 11) who go up slowly and alone in the sight of men when God calls them up. All other so-called raptures in Revelation are by mere inference.

The key is understanding the connection between John's experience in 4:1-2 and how they connect with I Corinthians 15:51-53 & I Thess. 4:15-18.

Once it is understood that Jesus coming for His bride will be by stealth (quietly) as a 'thief in the night' as opposed to a very noisy visible return at the end of the 7 yr tribulation, then one must conclude that the 2nd coming is in two stages. Much like the prophets visions of the coming Messiah was in two stages (the 1st & 2nd advents), the Jews did not grasp it and almost all of them missed the boat when Jesus arrived and fulfilled the first part of those prophecies.

Much the same thing will happen to the Christian world when Christ removes His bride quietly. The apostates and faithless will be left behind wondering what happened and why it happened. They never believed in it to begin with and never did grasp Jesus words.

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

"For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Those that eccape, Paul tells us, will do so in the 'twinkling of an eye'!


http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/UNY/UNY166/u13784142.jpg


Come Quickly, Lord Jesus!
Why do you have Jesus coming as a thief before tribulation comes when He will not have even come yet after the sixth vial is poured out?

12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.- Rev 16:12-15

cwb
Jul 21st 2008, 04:26 PM
Good then, now we can get on with breaking this bad doctrine that you understand WHY they are pre-trib.



You are only making yourself look foolish in your statement as to why pre-tribbers are pre-tribbers. You certainly are not helping your case.


Got that scripture yet? :P

You certainly are amazing. There has been so much scripture posted in this thread by pre-tribbers to support their view. I guess you didn't catch that either though. I am thankful for those who are pre-trib for posting the scriptures they have in support of their viewpoint. I might ( and I emphasize "might") just be going back to pre-trib in light of the many scriptures posted in this thread in support of the pre-trib view-point. If I do go back to pre-trib I can assure the reason will not be fear as you suggest. Sorry but I know too many pre-tribbers who are great believers and servants of Jesus Christ to even consider your description of why they are pre-trib. The disrespect you show for pre-tribbers is unbiblical to say the least.

yoSAMite
Jul 21st 2008, 04:35 PM
I think people fall into the pre-tribulation doctrine simply because of fear.
1. Fear of God, (thats a good thing) ;)
2. Fear of seeing those they love that are not sealed suffering.
3. Fear of losing all of their fleshly attachments.
I'd have to disagree with your conclusion. I think people fall into the pre-trib doctrine because after due diligence to the Scriptures this is the doctrine that they in all honesty believe is the best interpretation concerning the end times.

vinsight4u8
Jul 21st 2008, 04:39 PM
Why do you have Jesus coming as a thief before tribulation comes when He will not have even come yet after the sixth vial is poured out?

12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.- Rev 16:12-15


This is when Jesus will come as thief on the people that were left after the 7th trumpet rapture.
That is why they must keep their garments. Losing garments would show they died. The only resurrection time that is left for those people would be of bound for the lake of fire judgment.


2 Cor. 5 tell us about the church, she desires new clothes, so doesn't worry about losing hers.

vinsight4u8
Jul 21st 2008, 04:44 PM
Split Rev. 16 off from the seals time. John finished the seals at the end of the 7th trumpet. The temple opened in heaven, and the list was sent out as to cause the seven angels to get ready to pour out the vials of God's wrath.

John146
Jul 21st 2008, 04:47 PM
This is when Jesus will come as thief on the people that were left after the 7th trumpet rapture.
That is why they must keep their garments. Losing garments would show they died. The only resurrection time that is left for those people would be of bound for the lake of fire judgment.


2 Cor. 5 tell us about the church, she desires new clothes, so doesn't worry about losing hers.I totally disagree with any theory that suggests He is coming back twice. He is only coming ONCE. Do you differentiate between the coming of Christ mentioned in 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3, Matthew 24:29-31/Mark 13:26-27/Luke 21:27-28 and Rev 19:15-21? Are those passages not all speaking of the same future coming of Christ?

wpm
Jul 21st 2008, 04:55 PM
You are only making yourself look foolish in your statement as to why pre-tribbers are pre-tribbers. You certainly are not helping your case.



You certainly are amazing. There has been so much scripture posted in this thread by pre-tribbers to support their view. I guess you didn't catch that either though. I am thankful for those who are pre-trib for posting the scriptures they have in support of their viewpoint. I might ( and I emphasize "might") just be going back to pre-trib in light of the many scriptures posted in this thread in support of the pre-trib view-point. If I do go back to pre-trib I can assure the reason will not be fear as you suggest. Sorry but I know too many pre-tribbers who are great believers and servants of Jesus Christ to even consider your description of why they are pre-trib. The disrespect you show for pre-tribbers is unbiblical to say the least.

If you are right, please show us one single text (however obscure) that has been presented, or that you can think of, which clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ? You are the one making the claim, so you need to follow through. Many of us that are former Pretribber abandoned the theory on this important issue - it just isn't taught anywhere in the Word. Please highlight these 3 elements in your answer.

Paul

theleast
Jul 21st 2008, 04:59 PM
You are only making yourself look foolish in your statement as to why pre-tribbers are pre-tribbers. You certainly are not helping your case.



You certainly are amazing. There has been so much scripture posted in this thread by pre-tribbers to support their view. I guess you didn't catch that either though. I am thankful for those who are pre-trib for posting the scriptures they have in support of their viewpoint. I might ( and I emphasize "might") just be going back to pre-trib in light of the many scriptures posted in this thread in support of the pre-trib view-point. If I do go back to pre-trib I can assure the reason will not be fear as you suggest. Sorry but I know too many pre-tribbers who are great believers and servants of Jesus Christ to even consider your description of why they are pre-trib. The disrespect you show for pre-tribbers is unbiblical to say the least.

The only scripture I saw was related to the feasts, and that seems a bit vague. Somebody care to explain what the feasts have to do with the trumpets of revelation I'm all ears.

theleast
Jul 21st 2008, 05:00 PM
I'd have to disagree with your conclusion. I think people fall into the pre-trib doctrine because after due diligence to the Scriptures this is the doctrine that they in all honesty believe is the best interpretation concerning the end times.

Yet there has been very little scripture posted and NONE of it simply puts the rapture prior to the tribulation.

Do you have scripture?

cwb
Jul 21st 2008, 05:08 PM
If you are right, please show us one single text (however obscure) that has been presented, or that you can think of, which clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ? You are the one making the claim, so you need to follow through. Many of us that are former Pretribber abandoned the theory on this important issue - it just isn't taught anywhere in the Word. Please highlight these 3 elements in your answer.

Paul

If you don't see it , there is nothing I can wite to make you see it. Besides, previously I asked a similar question about your point of view. You were not able to answer. I am not going to throw your viewpoint out the window either just because you were unable to answer it.

cwb
Jul 21st 2008, 05:09 PM
The only scripture I saw was related to the feasts, and that seems a bit vague. Somebody care to explain what the feasts have to do with the trumpets of revelation I'm all ears.

If that is the only scripture you saw in this thread in support of pre-trib, then you obviously are not reading the posts in this thread and do not want to see it.

vinsight4u8
Jul 21st 2008, 05:10 PM
I totally disagree with any theory that suggests He is coming back twice. He is only coming ONCE. Do you differentiate between the coming of Christ mentioned in 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3, Matthew 24:29-31/Mark 13:26-27/Luke 21:27-28 and Rev 19:15-21? Are those passages not all speaking of the same future coming of Christ?

Jesus is coming back for the church at salvation time, but in Rev. 19's battle He is not coming to take anyone to heaven.


Look at Rev. 19:1 - what is said by the people?
What is the situation as to the 24 elders?

then comes what?
the marriage in heaven

followed by some armies coming from there
Aren't they the people that got the salvation part at the start of ch 19?

The received salvation - ate at the marriage supper armies will come from heaven - then send only one of those armies off to fight at Armageddon.

The other army is made up of trib-martyrs - they will reign later - but do not need to fight at Armaggedon, as they have already overcome the beast.


Rev. 14:14
"And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and his hand a sharp sickle."
wears one golden crown
sits on a white cloud

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:..."
Matthew 24:29

"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."
Acts 1:9
v11
"...shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

Ch 4 shows that at the 7th trumpet time the 24 elders cast their golden crowns to His throne.

Luke 21:27
"And they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."



Rev. 19:11
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat..."v12 "...on his head were many crowns..."
many crowns
He is coming with His armies of all changed at the 7th trumpet saints.

These armies of His are shown to take their seats to reign with Him after the battle.
Satan is bound.

John146
Jul 21st 2008, 05:20 PM
Jesus is coming back for the church at salvation time, but in Rev. 19's battle He is not coming to take anyone to heaven.


Look at Rev. 19:1 - what is said by the people?
What is the situation as to the 24 elders?

then comes what?
the marriage in heaven

followed by some armies coming from there
Aren't they the people that got the salvation part at the start of ch 19?

The received salvation - ate at the marriage supper armies will come from heaven - then send only one of those armies off to fight at Armageddon.

The other army is made up of trib-martyrs - they will reign later - but do not need to fight at Armaggedon, as they have already overcome the beast.


Rev. 14:14
"And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and his hand a sharp sickle."
wears one golden crown
sits on a white cloud

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:..."
Matthew 24:29

"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."
Acts 1:9
v11
"...shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

Ch 4 shows that at the 7th trumpet time the 24 elders cast their golden crowns to His throne.

Luke 21:27
"And they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."



Rev. 19:11
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat..."v12 "...on his head were many crowns..."
many crowns
He is coming with His armies of all changed at the 7th trumpet saints.

These armies of His are shown to take their seats to reign with Him after the battle.
Satan is bound.All we are told is that He is coming back once in the same manner He left. So, I can't take any theory that suggests He comes back twice seriously.

yoSAMite
Jul 21st 2008, 06:09 PM
Yet there has been very little scripture posted and NONE of it simply puts the rapture prior to the tribulation.
Do you have scripture?
Well it just so happens I do.

66 Books
1,189 Chapters
31,173 Verses
774,746 Words (give or take a couple, I may have not added correctly)

My point being I'm not aware of any one verse that in and by itself can prove a theological truth. I do believe that a verse, taken in or out of context, can disprove virtually any theological position.

vinsight4u8
Jul 21st 2008, 06:14 PM
John 14:2
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if [it] were not so, I would have told you, I go to prepare a place for you."
So Jesus Christ left to go to heaven.
He is seated with the 24 elders that wear golden crowns.
The four beasts repeat their phrase day and night as to He's holy and is coming back.

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also."

Jesus will come again to take us to His prepared place for us.

The all changed crowd resides there before the 7th seal is opened.

Rev. 7 - trib over - so they say, Salvation
God which sits upon the throne,
no longer 24 elders crowned and sitting with Him

7:15
"Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple.."

then the 7th seal time of silence
will be encountered by John

then Rev. 8:2a
and Rev. 11:19b

then ch 16 - begin the vials of God's wrath
keep your garments
Jesus will come again - this time for battle at Armageddon - to slay the remnant of the wicked armies.
He will be sitting on a white horse - for in righteousness He judges and makes war - He will no longer wear just one crown.
His head bears many crowns on it!

Literalist-Luke
Jul 21st 2008, 06:53 PM
In the context, it looks to me like He was speaking of Jerusalem and the redemption of Jerusalem."Lift up YOUR heads because YOUR redemption draw near."

Clifton
Jul 21st 2008, 10:50 PM
The passage in question refers to the redemption of those who have been converted to Christ DURING the tribulation, not to the saints who are already in heaven with Jesus enjoying the great celestial wedding feast.


Yea, I got that here too. Also, that a remnant of only one third of the population will be saved during the Tribulation. (Zechariah 13:8-9)

Blessings.

wpm
Jul 21st 2008, 10:58 PM
If you don't see it , there is nothing I can wite to make you see it. Besides, previously I asked a similar question about your point of view. You were not able to answer. I am not going to throw your viewpoint out the window either just because you were unable to answer it.


That is wrong. You asked me to prove something I don't believe. So your reasoning is mistaken.

Paul

cwb
Jul 21st 2008, 11:08 PM
That is wrong. You asked me to prove something I don't believe. So your reasoning is mistaken.
Paul

Show me in a single passage of scritpure where 1)there would be the first coming of Christ 2) followed by a 2000 plus year tribulation 3) followed by a post-trib ratpure after 2000 years of tribulation? If that is not what you believe let me know what you do believe.


One always knows when a doctrine is in error when someone answers a question with a question
So you are saying Jesus Christ was in error?

Mark F
Jul 22nd 2008, 12:15 AM
Show me in a single passage of scritpure where 1)there would be the first coming of Christ 2) followed by a 2000 plus year tribulation 3) followed by a post-trib ratpure after 2000 years of tribulation? If that is not what you believe let me know what you do believe.


So you are saying Jesus Christ was in error?



Touche' :lol: :rofl:

talmidim
Jul 22nd 2008, 01:16 AM
Salutations and Blessings HisLeast,

In post 197 HERE (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1717586&postcount=197), and in post 204 HERE (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1717586&postcount=197), I asked some questions that I was hoping that you would be kind enough to address. You agreed with much of what I wrote. And you responded with your view of where our views diverged. But when I answered your interpretation of chapter 7 and posed a set of questions that your interpretation brought up for me, you have not responded.

I see that you have answered other posters in this time frame, so I wonder if perhaps you missed my response to you. I look forward to reading your thoughts on this matter.

In His Love,
Phillip

Ps. I'll check back later...

theleast
Jul 22nd 2008, 02:43 AM
Salutations and Blessings HisLeast,

In post 197 HERE (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1717586&postcount=197), and in post 204 HERE (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1717586&postcount=197), I asked some questions that I was hoping that you would be kind enough to address. You agreed with much of what I wrote. And you responded with your view of where our views diverged. But when I answered your interpretation of chapter 7 and posed a set of questions that your interpretation brought up for me, you have not responded.

I see that you have answered other posters in this time frame, so I wonder if perhaps you missed my response to you. I look forward to reading your thoughts on this matter.

In His Love,
Phillip

Ps. I'll check back later...


Sorry been VERY busy at work today. I promise I will get back to you soon. Hopefully tonight.

But I will get back because your posts have been very insiightfull....just been very busy and want to give them the time they deserve.

wpm
Jul 22nd 2008, 02:56 AM
Show me in a single passage of scritpure where 1)there would be the first coming of Christ 2) followed by a 2000 plus year tribulation 3) followed by a post-trib ratpure after 2000 years of tribulation? If that is not what you believe let me know what you do believe.


Please copy this to a Word Doc so that you don't repeat this same mistake. I will. Posttrib rejects the idea that Christ defined a stated time of tribulation. He didn't. He said the period between His First Advent and His return would be totally unknown man.


I have also showed you that when Jesus left, He never stated how long He would be. In fact, He just called us to watch and pray and be "ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." See also Luke 12:40.

I don't therefore have to get a passage that says the trib is 2,000+ yrs old. I don't believe that.

Jesus said in Mark 13:32-37: "of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

There you have it. We don't know the time-scale. We therefore can't prove the time-scale.

Jesus said in Matthew 25:14, 19-30 on the parable of the talents, “For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.”

Here Christ is speaking of the intra-Advent period.

And continues, “After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

Is "a long time" not an unspecific time?

He continues, "Then he which had received the one talent came …His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my Coming. I should have received mine own with usury. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Here again, both the righteous and the wicked receive their judgment at the all-consummating Second Advent of the Lord – “at my coming.” Not simply the wicked, but the righteous servants are brought before the bar of God to account for their talents!!! When? At Christ's Coming.

As for tribulation, it is always simply shown as a reality for the elect. No time-scale is attached to it. Every time tribulation is mentioned in Scripture it is never accompanied with a time period, it is simply shown to be existing in Bible times and continuing right up until the climactic Coming of Christ.

All I have to prove is that this intra-Advent period is a period of tribulation. How many verses do you want?

Jesus said in John 15:18-21, "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me."

2 Timothy 3:12 declares, “all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”

Jesus said in John 16:33, “In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”

Acts 14:22 says, “we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”

II Corinthians 1:3-5 says, "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ."

1 Thessalonians 3:4 declares: "we told you before that we should suffer tribulation."

II Thessalonians 1:4 says, "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:"


Pretrib on the other hand makes bold statements that it can't biblically support. Pretribbers claim that Scripture teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ. I say: I it is not in the Bible. I further say: prove it! They shout this theory from the rooftops but when pressed they can't in any way support it with God's Word.

Pretrib should therefore be rejected by every Bible student as non-biblical until someone can come up with scriptural evidence.


So you are saying Jesus Christ was in error?

Fair enough. You were right on this one. I will withdraw my comment.

Paul

cwb
Jul 22nd 2008, 03:15 AM
Please copy this to a Word Doc so that you don't repeat this same mistake. I will. Posttrib rejects the idea that Christ defined a stated time of tribulation. He didn't. He said the period between His First Advent and His return would be totally unknown man.


I have also showed you that when Jesus left, He never stated how long He would be. In fact, He just called us to watch and pray and be "ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." See also Luke 12:40.

I don't therefore have to get a passage that says the trib is 2,000+ yrs old. I don't believe that.

Jesus said in Mark 13:32-37: "of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

There you have it. We don't know the time-scale. We therefore can't prove the time-scale.

Jesus said in Matthew 25:14, 19-30 on the parable of the talents, “For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.”

Here Christ is speaking of the intra-Advent period.

And continues, “After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

Is "a long time" not an unspecific time?

He continues, "Then he which had received the one talent came …His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my Coming. I should have received mine own with usury. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Here again, both the righteous and the wicked receive their judgment at the all-consummating Second Advent of the Lord – “at my coming.” Not simply the wicked, but the righteous servants are brought before the bar of God to account for their talents!!! When? At Christ's Coming.

As for tribulation, it is always simply shown as a reality for the elect. No time-scale is attached to it. Every time tribulation is mentioned in Scripture it is never accompanied with a time period, it is simply shown to be existing in Bible times and continuing right up until the climactic Coming of Christ.

All I have to prove is that this intra-Advent period is a period of tribulation. How many verses do you want?

Jesus said in John 15:18-21, "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me."

2 Timothy 3:12 declares, “all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”

Jesus said in John 16:33, “In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”

Acts 14:22 says, “we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”

II Corinthians 1:3-5 says, "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ."

1 Thessalonians 3:4 declares: "we told you before that we should suffer tribulation."

II Thessalonians 1:4 says, "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:"





That is an awfully long post to not answer a question. Truth of the matter is I have seen just as much scriptural evidence from pre-tribbers in this forum for their veiwpoint as I have seen for your viewpoint. Your question to pre-tribbers really does not impress me. Especially since I know you are not really looking for an answer but to bash. Since I have been on this forum so many have answered your question that you ask over and over. When I was pre-trib I answered your question as well. You just don't except the answer anyone gives. So your question doesn't really impress me too much.

wpm
Jul 22nd 2008, 03:46 AM
Truth of the matter is I have seen just as much scriptural evidence from pre-tribbers in this forum for their veiwpoint as I have seen for your viewpoint. Your question to pre-tribbers really does not impress me. Especially since I know you are not really looking for an answer but to bash. Since I have been on this forum so many have answered your question that you ask over and over. When I was pre-trib I answered your question as well. You just don't except the answer anyone gives. So your question doesn't really impress me too much.


I certainly wasn't presenting this to impress anyone.


Paul

yoSAMite
Jul 22nd 2008, 06:04 AM
Pretrib on the other hand makes bold statements that it can't biblically support. Pretribbers claim that Scripture teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ. I say: I it is not in the Bible. I further say: prove it! They shout this theory from the rooftops but when pressed they can't in any way support it with God's Word. Hey Paul,
A month without the quote is like a month without sunshine. Many of the pre-trib persuasion do not believe what you claim. It would be more accurate if you said (1) a rapture of the Church (2) followed at some point by a literal 7 year period of which the final three are the "great tribulation" (3) immediately followed by the 2nd Coming, the Glorious Appearing of Christ.

vinsight4u8
Jul 22nd 2008, 06:51 AM
So what did Jesus mean here?

Luke 21:25-28 - "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

He is telling the disciples that their redemption draws near when there are signs in the sun, moon, and stars (which sounds remarkably like Revelation's Sixth Seal), nations are in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea, people are fainting from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, and they (the world) see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. That's when Jesus says the disciples' redemption draws near and they are to "lift up their heads". What does redemption mean if not Jesus coming for them? And if they're already in heaven coming back with Jesus, wouldn't they be looking down at the earth, not lifting up their heads at the sky to see Jesus appear?

(And don't repeat your quote of Matthew 24:42 or Mark 13:33. That has already been dealt with in this thread. It's time for you to deal with Luke 21:25-28.)

You are seeing the rapture is in the 6th seal? So that means you also recognize that the 7th trumpet is sounding in seal 6?
You told us that you see the earthquake as the third woe for Rev. 11. Does it seem to you that Rev. 11 shows the 7th trumpet began - the seated 24 elders fell down before God, they worshipped Him....

but then no quake was seen by John?

"And the four and twenty elders, which sat..."

fell
worshipped

All taking John to just about the moment to see the quake? The quake when the two witnesses rise from the dead.
But what caused John to be put in limbo as he wrote about the 7th trumpet?

Well, what do you think in regards to the end of Rev. 4, the elders that had been sitting fall?
fall
worship
cast off their golden crowns
to a place

the place where John all of a suddden sees somehing
#enters the sealed book events

Why? Because John will be shown that the 7th trumpet event he was waiting on in Rev. 11 will happen during the 6th seal. #earthquake hour

vinsight4u8
Jul 22nd 2008, 07:13 AM
"During that tribulation or even the great tribulation.. are you as a born again Christian going to have to undergo and be subject to God's wrath that He pours out on a rebellious planet that rejected Him and followed the father of lies?"

The topic post is in error. The 'last trump' is not the last trumpet that will ever blow but the last trumpet during the age of grace. It is equal to the trump that John heard in Revelation 4:1-2. As soon as he heard that trumpet and a voice calling to him "Come up hither", he was raptured! The connection with I Corinthians 15:52 & I Thessalonians 4:16-17 is obvious.

The last trumpet of the tribulation period is mentioned in Revelation is in chapter 11, after the rapture takes place.

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." No rapture is mentioned there for it has (by that time) already taken place.


http://s62.photobucket.com/albums/h106/Martyrs5/th_P0327370.jpg


What hour do the two witnesses rise?
Rev. 11 # split it into three parts

John measured for a new temple in Jerusalem.

during the second woe the two witnesses
get killed
the wicked send gifts to each other over this murder

after three and an half days
-comes woe three
the great earthquake hour
when the two witnesses rise
So what trumpet time is the third woe that comes quickly?

vinsight4u8
Jul 22nd 2008, 07:21 AM
"During that tribulation or even the great tribulation.. are you as a born again Christian going to have to undergo and be subject to God's wrath that He pours out on a rebellious planet that rejected Him and followed the father of lies?"

The topic post is in error. The 'last trump' is not the last trumpet that will ever blow but the last trumpet during the age of grace. It is equal to the trump that John heard in Revelation 4:1-2. As soon as he heard that trumpet and a voice calling to him "Come up hither", he was raptured! The connection with I Corinthians 15:52 & I Thessalonians 4:16-17 is obvious.

The last trumpet of the tribulation period is mentioned in Revelation is in chapter 11, after the rapture takes place.

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." No rapture is mentioned there for it has (by that time) already taken place.


http://s62.photobucket.com/albums/h106/Martyrs5/th_P0327370.jpg


Notice that Rev. 4:1-2 is not the time for teh rapture of the church. John is hearing the same as it were of a trumpet voice that he heard back in 1:10.
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet."

Rev. 4:1 #refers to the first voice - the ch 1 voice
"After this I looked, and behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard..."
# John is letting us know that he hears that first voice as of a trumpet from ch 1 again. Notice that verse 2 again puts John in the spirit.

Look at ch 15 - as it tell us what?
# the temple in heaven is closed to men till the seven plagues end

15:8
"And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."

Merton
Jul 22nd 2008, 07:28 AM
Look at ch 15 - as it tell us what?
# the temple in heaven is closed to men till the seven plagues end

Closed to which men?


Merton.

vinsight4u8
Jul 22nd 2008, 07:56 AM
Closed to which men?


Merton.

All the saints that sleep in heaven and will come back with the Lord Jesus at the seventh plague time.

In Rev. 11 where the trumpet story is jotted down for us, we find that after the 7th trumpet begins, the temple in heaven opens and John sees the ark of His testament.
So men were still not quite allowed in yet, for John mentioned the ark, but not men.

Before the trumpet story begins, where John placed it in Rev. 8, incense is offered, this shows that men are praying outside the temple.

Rev. 8:3
"And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with prayers of all saints..."


Luke 1:9
"According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord."/ "And the whole mutitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense."

vinsight4u8
Jul 22nd 2008, 08:41 AM
/........................................

Escape from what? Obviously the terrible tribulation that he had just described to them!

So while those on earth suffer the cup of His indignation, we as believers will be with the Lord drinking of the cup of salvation as he promised us in the marriage supper of the Lamb!


http://images-partners-tbn.google.com/images?q=tbn:WCZ059Vk3pUmMM:thirtyyorkstreet.com/Silver-cups.jpg



May God be praised!


Doesn't this salvation time you mentioned here come at the start of Rev. 19?

"And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation..."

# So basically you would place the rapture of the church at about that time of saying - salvation?

This is not all the people are saying as they are also announcing that God judged.

# So we are past the 5th seal time of martyrs waiting for God to judge and avenge their blood.

"...the great whore, which did corrupt the earth..."

Why do you think it makes the corruption of the earth has a past deal?
Isn't the trib over?

#The wicked city for verse 2 - isn't that the city that corrupted the earth for the trib time?
mystery, Babylon of Rev. 17

So using your way as to when the church goes to heaven, it shows me a post-trib rapture.


Using your way for Rev. 12 also shows me that the rapture is post-trib, after Satan has been cast to the earth. The brethren that he was accusing in heaven must love not their lives unto the death and then comes salvation.


Rev. 7 shows also shows the trib martyrs and then comes salvation.

Hebrews 9:28 shows that Jesus Christ appears at the time of salvation.

vinsight4u8
Jul 22nd 2008, 08:44 AM
Hi Yankee Candle,

Who do you think the "armies" from heaven will be for Rev. 19?

vinsight4u8
Jul 22nd 2008, 09:57 AM
All we are told is that He is coming back once in the same manner He left. So, I can't take any theory that suggests He comes back twice seriously.

Rev. 15 shows that once the 7th plague ends the temple in heaven will open to men, so they can enter in.

Chapter 16 is where the vials begin.
Armageddon is getting together at the time of the 6th vial.
God's armies come from heaven. The one army will not fight at Armageddon, but leaves the war up to those who had yet to gain victory over the beast.



Rev. 14 - shows one like the Son of man reaps the earth.
Rev. 15:1 - places the vials as only then seen by John

vinsight4u8
Jul 22nd 2008, 10:07 AM
I totally disagree with any theory that suggests He is coming back twice. He is only coming ONCE. Do you differentiate between the coming of Christ mentioned in 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3, Matthew 24:29-31/Mark 13:26-27/Luke 21:27-28 and Rev 19:15-21? Are those passages not all speaking of the same future coming of Christ?

No, they are not all the same coming moment of the LORD as to His next return from heaven. Rev. 19- step one verse further back than what you listed and we see that Jesus is not going to be coming alone - for He has armies with Him.

#armies =the all changed at the 7th trumpet saints

Armageddon - the battle found in ch 19 is during the time of the vials.

Would you say that the happenings of the 24 elders is different than it is at Rev. 11:16 and Rev. 4:10.
Why? Because the 7th trumpet came - bringing with it the time when the 24 elders can no longer sit down at the throne.
# The 7th trumpet sounded at the start of ch 19.

John146
Jul 22nd 2008, 01:20 PM
Hey Paul,
A month without the quote is like a month without sunshine. Many of the pre-trib persuasion do not believe what you claim. It would be more accurate if you said (1) a rapture of the Church (2) followed at some point by a literal 7 year period of which the final three are the "great tribulation" (3) immediately followed by the 2nd Coming, the Glorious Appearing of Christ.Okay, then do you have any passages showing all three of those things happening in that order?

John146
Jul 22nd 2008, 01:21 PM
Rev. 15 shows that once the 7th plague ends the temple in heaven will open to men, so they can enter in.

Chapter 16 is where the vials begin.
Armageddon is getting together at the time of the 6th vial.
God's armies come from heaven. The one army will not fight at Armageddon, but leaves the war up to those who had yet to gain victory over the beast.



Rev. 14 - shows one like the Son of man reaps the earth.
Rev. 15:1 - places the vials as only then seen by JohnI'm going to have to make myself more clear. I will not buy into any theory that suggests Jesus is coming back more than once. So, please stop trying to convince me of that.

theleast
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:07 PM
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In these verses, the resurrection is not all the dead, it is 'the dead in Christ'. And the 'we' in these verses is specific to the righteous of the Lord. This is not a meaningless distinction. Because there is another resurrection of the flesh spoken of in Ezekiel. And it is another covenant bunch. And they are decidedly not 'the dead in Christ'. Because it states that they are all the children of Israel. And there is another resurrection spoken of in the Revelation that is specific to all flesh at the end of the age. Besides, the Revelation specifically distinguishes between the 'first resurrection' and all others.

So I have to ask, Is there a possibility that there might be some righteous, covenant keeping people in those other resurrections? Because if the answer is yes, then it would raise the possibility of more 'raptures' too.

My point is simple. Most people that study the end time events do not account for these distinctions. They tend to lump 'believers' into the same group as the 'righteous'. And I don't believe that is the case. It's like the scriptures teach, even the demons believe in the Messiah. So in my estimation, belief is no 'free ride' to the rapture of the saints. Not is a covenant relationship. It must apply only to those that are righteous before the Lord.

I believe that I can make a case for a pre, mid, and post tribulation rapture and resurrection and a post millennial resurrection and rapture too. If you would like for me to expand on my understanding of this topic and the judgments that are specified in the Revelation of our Lord, I'll check in later. In the mean time, be well and be blessed.

In His Love,
Phillip




O.K. I promised I would get back to you when I had more time and I have time..:pp.

O.K. here is a verse from Daniel that speaks to the dead being raised...

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This verse to me shows that it is not JUST the dead in Christ that are raised, but just that the dead in Christ are raised FIRST. So the dead in Christ are raptured, and the rest of the dead are cast into the bottomless pit...later on.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This is where the first are cast into the bottomless pit. The beast and the false prophet which I believe to be all the evil people upon the earth and the leaders of the false religions that deceived them....that's another thread of course though.

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This is where we see that the rest of the dead that are asleep in the dust of the earth do not live again until the thousand years are finished.

And after that thousand years we see that all the dead in the sea and in hell are finally made to stand before God for the final judgement.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice that death AND hell (this version of hell being hades; which is defined as a dwelling place for souls) are both cast into the lake of fire.

As for your idea of their being righteous and believers I agree that they are two different things.

To me believers are the vine, in other words they believe in Christ and become a part of the vine. They either bear fruit and are purged, or they do NOT bear fruit and are cut off by the Husbandman our Father.

But the righteous are the fig tree that stands in the midst of the vineyard. The fig tree is supposed to help guide the vine, teach them, lead them. If they do not bear fruit they are hewn down, if they do bear fruit then they are left to stand. The fig tree are the righteous. That's the interpretation I got, and again this is an entirely different subject for another thread but I think it is needed to answer your question. This just scratches the surface of the vine and the fig tree, and there are the olive trees as well. But the fig tree is also those 144,000 that come back with Christ to cast the vine into the winepress to be trodden.

theleast
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:19 PM
Greetings and Blessings Brother,

So you and I agree on much. This is good. How pleasant it is when brothers dwell together [in agreement]. You and I agree that His disciples will suffer, some more than others. But we also agree that they are not appointed to His wrath. We also agree that there are more than one resurrection and possibly more than one rapture as well. It is an interesting thought, isn't it?

I take it you are not swayed by the contextual argument offered to you concerning the trumpets. And that you are firmly committed to the presumption that the 'last trump' in fact aligns with the last of the seven trumpets listed in the book of the Revelation.

I must tell you, I have personal knowledge that the trumpet blasts associated with different Temple services and feast days and the various utilitarian application, like the various calls to assemble, did indeed have individual names. But I don't intend to belabor the point. Suffice to say that the names man gives to various things can be deceiving if taken on face value.

I also take it that you believe the sealed of God spoken of in chapter seven, to be for the righteous in Messiah. As you might guess, my perspective differs slightly. And I still have questions. For instance:

The plain meaning of the text of chapter seven describes those people as sealed out of the twelve tribes of Israel. And it does not appear to include any of the gentile believers such as the righteous Corinthians or Thessalonians that Paul addressed in the scriptures. The same scriptures that you and I quoted. So I have more questions.

Since they are not included among the sealed of the Living God, yet they clearly are the audience of Paul's revelation and prophecy concerning their end, wouldn't they have to be accounted for? You believe that they must wait for the last of the trumpet judgments. I don't think so and here are a couple of reasons why I believe that is the case.

There is no place in scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, where angels are given crowns. Nor are they ever, in any text referred to as 'Elders'. That is a term reserved for people of special office within His covenant people. And crowns are rewards given to those overcomers that rule and reign as priest and kings with the Master. These Elders that wear crowns describe the leaders of the brethren and the leaders of the twelve tribes. And we know who twelve of the twenty-four are.

The Master promised that His disciples would rule over the twelve tribes of Israel. And that they were not included among the 'firstfruits' of the resurrected that occurred in Jerusalem at the time of His crucifixion. That means that they must have been among the 'dead in Christ' mentioned in my previous post.

Since they are included among the Elders of the tribes of Israel and occupy 12 of the twenty-four thrones, how did they get to the Throne room in the Temple in heaven before the judgment of the seals were opened? And if they are resurrected, aren't the rest of the 'dead in Christ' included in that resurrection?

Now please keep in mind that a case can be made for mid-trib and post-trib as well as post-millenial raptures too (to include all those that lived until the last judgment). But that only accounts for three of the four groups I described. So for the reasons I have included, I think that His disciples, His righteous, and all the rest of the dead in Christ, are there in the Throne room before the seals are opened. And don't the seals in every popular scenario either precede or coincide with the trumpets?

In His love,
Phillip


The seals in my opinion are preceeding the trumpets. I believe the sixth seal is opened and we are in the midst of that process awaiting the seventh seal.

The elders in the throne room are not angels. They are the prophets that came before Christ IMO.

As for why they are standing in the throne room of God, and why the saints are crying beneath the throne for vengence that takes us to a spiritual concept.

There are two things I want to point out here and I will probably get criticized for it but so be it.

1. God created time and time exists WITHIN God. That is why God has foreknowledge of all things from the beginning to the end. Because he IS the beginning and the end. Christ is the Alpha and the Omega. So while we are sitting here right now having this discussion the marriage feast is already taking place in the Kingdom of heaven because the entire frame of time is already finished, and yet it is just now being created. I love God!

2. God has many sheep in many folds. Those saints crying underneath the throne of God may not be from just this fold but another fold entirely. Who knows but until we are in the kingdom with God, we might as well not even try to consider all his mysteries because we just might blow our own minds. LOL.

talmidim
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:20 PM
O.K. I promised I would get back to you when I had more time and I have time..:pp.Thank you, theleast. I was looking forward to our exchange. I can now see where you and I differ and I ;) have more observations and questions. I hope you don't mind.

I am a little disappointed that you didn't really address my understanding of the disciples of the Master and the thrones. I was looking forward to your observations about them. Perhaps you might expand on your answer later.


O.K. here is a verse from Daniel that speaks to the dead being raised...

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This verse to me shows that it is not JUST the dead in Christ that are raised, but just that the dead in Christ are raised FIRST. So the dead in Christ are raptured, and the rest of the dead are cast into the bottomless pit...later on. This isn't definitive as I see it. It certainly doesn't indicate that the dead of Israel will be raised at the same time or even in the same age. Are there any other scriptures about the resurrection of Israel that indicate they will be raised before the end of the millennial era? Because I don't remember any.


19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This is where the first are cast into the bottomless pit. The beast and the false prophet which I believe to be all the evil people upon the earth and the leaders of the false religions that deceived them....that's another thread of course though.Indeed it is. :D

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This is where we see that the rest of the dead that are asleep in the dust of the earth do not live again until the thousand years are finished.Yes my brother. This is correct. Please consider this carefully. Is there anything here to indicate that Israel would not be included in this group that would be resurrected at the end of the thousand year period? Don't most people just assume that Israel will be resurrected shortly after the resurrection of the 'dead in Christ'? Because I don't see where it is written that it would happen that way.


And after that thousand years we see that all the dead in the sea and in hell are finally made to stand before God for the final judgement.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice that death AND hell (this version of hell being hades; which is defined as a dwelling place for souls) are both cast into the lake of fire.Still there is nothing to indicate that all Israel is not included in this group, at this time. See what I mean?


As for your idea of their being righteous and believers I agree that they are two different things.

To me believers are the vine, in other words they believe in Christ and become a part of the vine. They either bear fruit and are purged, or they do NOT bear fruit and are cut off by the Husbandman our Father.

But the righteous are the fig tree that stands in the midst of the vineyard. The fig tree is supposed to help guide the vine, teach them, lead them. If they do not bear fruit they are hewn down, if they do bear fruit then they are left to stand. The fig tree are the righteous. That's the interpretation I got, and again this is an entirely different subject for another thread but I think it is needed to answer your question. This just scratches the surface of the vine and the fig tree, and there are the olive trees as well. But the fig tree is also those 144,000 that come back with Christ to cast the vine into the winepress to be trodden.Please forgive me if I see this a little differently. The 144,000 are believers. For they are clearly with Messiah. And there is no indication that they die before being found with Him in the heavenlies. So there is no clear indication that they are not 'raptured' too. And there is nothing to say that the resurrection of those 'in Christ' is not a progressive event that includes those that died during the tribulation. The scriptures just differentiates between those that are in Christ and those that are not.

But in any case, whether raptured or resurrected, this is proof of at least two distinct raptures and resurrections. And for me, it raises the possibility of more, not less. What about the timing of the rapture of the two witnesses? That certainly brings up more questions than answers too. :D But like you said. that might be a whole other thread.

The seals in my opinion are preceeding the trumpets. I believe the sixth seal is opened and we are in the midst of that process awaiting the seventh seal.What is your reason for that belief? Because although I see many things that lay the foundation for the first four seals events, I do not see them as happening yet.

The elders in the throne room are not angels. They are the prophets that came before Christ IMO.But how do you account for the disciples of Messiah? Aren't they to rule from twelve of those thrones too?

As for why they are standing in the throne room of God, and why the saints are crying beneath the throne for vengence that takes us to a spiritual concept.

There are two things I want to point out here and I will probably get criticized for it but so be it.

1. God created time and time exists WITHIN God. That is why God has foreknowledge of all things from the beginning to the end. Because he IS the beginning and the end. Christ is the Alpha and the Omega. So while we are sitting here right now having this discussion the marriage feast is already taking place in the Kingdom of heaven because the entire frame of time is already finished, and yet it is just now being created. I love God!

2. God has many sheep in many folds. Those saints crying underneath the throne of God may not be from just this fold but another fold entirely. Who knows but until we are in the kingdom with God, we might as well not even try to consider all his mysteries because we just might blow our own minds. LOL.Thank you again for your efforts in laying all of this out for me. I agree with what you say about time, as much as our feeble understanding can comprehend. And as far as the saints under the altar, no matter the fold, they are in Messiah.

I am looking forward to our next exchange. I would really appreciate it if you could clear up the whole when Israel is resurrected, question.

In His Love,
Phillip

theleast
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:52 PM
Thank you, theleast. I was looking forward to our exchange. I can now see where you and I differ and I ;) have more observations and questions. I hope you don't mind.

I am a little disappointed that you didn't really address my understanding of the disciples of the Master and the thrones. I was looking forward to your observations about them. Perhaps you might expand on your answer later.

The reason I didn't expand upon my understanding of the disciples of the master and the thrones is because in all honesty my understanding of that even in heaven is not strong. I have never really studied or prayed upon it, mostly because my focus has been upon many other things. I will take a closer look at your previous posts and study it a bit more when I have time and see if I can expand upon my understanding of that. The reason why I always saw it as being the old prophets is because Christ has seven churches, not 12. Israel had 12 tribes. The first 12 I see as being before the carrying away into Babylon, and the other 12 during and after Babylon. But like I said take that with a grain of salt because my understanding there is not strong because of my own fault and shortcomings in study.




This isn't definitive as I see it. It certainly doesn't indicate that the dead of Israel will be raised at the same time or even in the same age. Are there any other scriptures about the resurrection of Israel that indicate they will be raised before the end of the millennial era? Because I don't remember any.

Not to my recollection. As far as I know Daniel was the first and last to speak of it before Christ came. Also notice this....

Daniel 12:9 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Daniel+12:9&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Daniel+12&version=9)
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel is not given much concerning those very end times prophecies that he was seeking answers to.

Revelation 22:10 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+22:10&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+22&version=9)
And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

But here John is told the time is at hand, thus we know we are in the generation of the tribulation.



Indeed it is. :D
Yes my brother. This is correct. Please consider this carefully. Is there anything here to indicate that Israel would not be included in this group that would be resurrected at the end of the thousand year period? Don't most people just assume that Israel will be resurrected shortly after the resurrection of the 'dead in Christ'? Because I don't see where it is written that it would happen that way.

Still there is nothing to indicate that all Israel is not included in this group, at this time. See what I mean?


I see the rapture including ALL those with their name found written in the book of life at that time, whether Jew or Gentile.



Please forgive me if I see this a little differently. The 144,000 are believers. For they are clearly with Messiah. And there is no indication that they die before being found with Him in the heavenlies. So there is no clear indication that they are not 'raptured' too. And there is nothing to say that the resurrection of those 'in Christ' is not a progressive event that includes those that died during the tribulation. The scriptures just differentiates between those that are in Christ and those that are not.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

That is the 144,000. That is who they are.



But in any case, whether raptured or resurrected, this is proof of at least two distinct raptures and resurrections. And for me, it raises the possibility of more, not less. What about the timing of the rapture of the two witnesses? That certainly brings up more questions than answers too. :D But like you said. that might be a whole other thread.
What is your reason for that belief? Because although I see many things that lay the foundation for the first four seals events, I do not see them as happening yet.
But how do you account for the disciples of Messiah? Aren't they to rule from twelve of those thrones too?
Thank you again for your efforts in laying all of this out for me. I agree with what you say about time, as much as our feeble understanding can comprehend. And as far as the saints under the altar, no matter the fold, they are in Messiah.

I am looking forward to our next exchange. I would really appreciate it if you could clear up the whole when Israel is resurrected, question.

In His Love,
Phillip


The two witnesses are special, no doubt about that. But look at when their rapture occurs...

That goes in line with this scripture too...

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So first the dead are raised to go be with Christ, then those which are alive on the earth. So yes I agree with you that you can see these at two seperate events. And after the millenial reign we may see yet another on the final day of judgement.

Certainly worth looking into, and I don't disagree with you at all that there may be more than one rapture. There is not a pre-tribulation rapture for those left on the earth though that I can find anywhere in scripture, and to me that is very important to point out for those looking for one. I think that is a major stumbling block of our age.

yoSAMite
Jul 23rd 2008, 05:26 PM
John146 asked:


Originally Posted by Khoolaid http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1718929#post1718929)
Hey Paul,
A month without the quote is like a month without sunshine. Many of the pre-trib persuasion do not believe what you claim. It would be more accurate if you said (1) a rapture of the Church (2) followed at some point by a literal 7 year period of which the final three are the "great tribulation" (3) immediately followed by the 2nd Coming, the Glorious Appearing of Christ.

Okay, then do you have any passages showing all three of those things happening in that order?Here's what I believe is the timing (orange are my comments)

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come (the time of Jacobs trouble, Daniel's 70th week, the great tribulation), except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed (the confirming of the covenant, Dan 9:27), the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he (indwelt Holy Spirit in church) be taken out of the way. (the rapture of the church)
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed (the confirming of the covenant), whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

We have a time line here, great tribulation (Jacobs Trouble, Daniel's 70th week) cannot happen until man of sin revealed. Man of sin can't be revealed until he (the indwelt Holy Spirit) be taken out of the way, (the rapture).

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet , stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand (in Daniel's 70th week) ...
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, ... (final 3 1/2 weeks of Daniel's 70th)
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation ...
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Now you may disagree with my interpretation, but until further notice, that's my story and I'm sticking by it.

John146
Jul 23rd 2008, 05:39 PM
John146 asked:
Here's what I believe is the timing (orange are my comments)

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come (the time of Jacobs trouble, Daniel's 70th week, the great tribulation), except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed (the confirming of the covenant, Dan 9:27), the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he (indwelt Holy Spirit in church) be taken out of the way. (the rapture of the church)
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed (the confirming of the covenant), whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

We have a time line here, great tribulation (Jacobs Trouble, Daniel's 70th week) cannot happen until man of sin revealed. Man of sin can't be revealed until he (the indwelt Holy Spirit) be taken out of the way, (the rapture).So, no Christians will be indwelt by the Holy Spirit during this supposed 7-year tribulation period? I don't find that to be a reasonable theory at all. Also, read verse 3 above carefully. It says that day (the day of the coming of the Lord and our being gathered unto Him) can't happen until the falling away and the man of sin are revealed first. But you have the gathering unto Him occurring before the falling away and the man of sin being revealed. How do you reconcile that?


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet , stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand (in Daniel's 70th week) ...
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, ... (final 3 1/2 weeks of Daniel's 70th)
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation ...
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Now you may disagree with my interpretation, but until further notice, that's my story and I'm sticking by it.Of course I disagree, but we can still talk about it. I see that you quoted some verses from Matthew 24, but where do you see a pre-trib rapture described there?

talmidim
Jul 23rd 2008, 06:31 PM
The reason I didn't expand upon my understanding of the disciples of the master and the thrones is because in all honesty my understanding of that even in heaven is not strong. I have never really studied or prayed upon it, mostly because my focus has been upon many other things. I will take a closer look at your previous posts and study it a bit more when I have time and see if I can expand upon my understanding of that. Well this is what I was talking about:

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This seems to be a picture of the thrones in the Revelation. Who sits on His right or left is not specified. But they are there nonetheless.

The reason why I always saw it as being the old prophets is because Christ has seven churches, not 12. Israel had 12 tribes. The first 12 I see as being before the carrying away into Babylon, and the other 12 during and after Babylon. But like I said take that with a grain of salt because my understanding there is not strong because of my own fault and shortcomings in study.Since the northern ten tribes were scattered by the Assyrians, the remaining tribes in the kingdom of Judah that were carried away by the Babylonians were primarily of Judah, Benjamin and part of the tribe of Levi. Still it is believed that remnants of the other tribes had sought refuge in Judah, so all twelve may have been represented. I doubt that it was the original twelve because of the absence of the tribe of Dan when the 144,00 are mentioned in the Revelation, but that is just speculation on my part.;)

I always thought the seven churches represented the seven lamps of the Menorah. There is a really good teaching about that which I will share another time. You may find it interesting.

I do think you are on to something with the thrones going to prophets. Even though there are many more than twelve (seventeen with books in cannon if you include Samuel). But I think I read somewhere that twelve are recorded as having been murdered. And they may be those of which you speak.

Not to my recollection. As far as I know Daniel was the first and last to speak of it before Christ came. Also notice this....

Daniel 12:9 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Daniel+12:9&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Daniel+12&version=9)
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel is not given much concerning those very end times prophecies that he was seeking answers to.

Revelation 22:10 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+22:10&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+22&version=9)
And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

But here John is told the time is at hand, thus we know we are in the generation of the tribulation.There is Ezekiel of course, with the valley of dry bones. And there are a few minor references sprinkled throughout scripture. I just don't remember any specifying exactly when the resurrection would be in regard to the millenium. I'll have to re-read Ezekiel and Zechariah for sure.

As to the 'sealing' of the prophecies, there are rabbis that have confessed, that is their motivation for changing their calendar. So as to obscure when the six thousand years of human history is concluded. I guess they didn't think Daniel had done a good enough job.:lol:

I see the rapture including ALL those with their name found written in the book of life at that time, whether Jew or Gentile.But again my friend, that is an assumption. It is a tradition. But it is not stated anywhere that I know in scripture. And we agree that there is to be more than one resurrection. If it is written, then I will ask that you do the same as you have asked of others. Please show me.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

That is the 144,000. That is who they are.I can understand why you would think that, but again, there isn't anything definite in scripture to support that view. In my mind, they are those that came to the Lord during the last great revival. But in truth, that is just as much speculation as your point of view. Could be either, or any combination. But I doubt it because they were sealed against harm by the angels. And angels are powerful protectors...:eek:

The two witnesses are special, no doubt about that. But look at when their rapture occurs...

That goes in line with this scripture too...

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So first the dead are raised to go be with Christ, then those which are alive on the earth. So yes I agree with you that you can see these at two seperate events. And after the millenial reign we may see yet another on the final day of judgement.Since it specifically states the 'dead in Christ' it does not include all of the dead. So the dead gentiles and dead Jews might not be raised until much later. And with the ambiguity of some scriptures, there could be even more resurrections and raptures. So I am not saying that what has been discussed here proves a pre-trib rapture. All I am saying is that I haven't seen anything to disprove it either. Know what I mean?

Certainly worth looking into, and I don't disagree with you at all that there may be more than one rapture. There is not a pre-tribulation rapture for those left on the earth though that I can find anywhere in scripture, and to me that is very important to point out for those looking for one. I think that is a major stumbling block of our age.Ah, but here is where we must be careful my friend. Just because WE think it might be a stumblingblock, doesn't mean that it isn't true. Sheep are easily scattered. That is why the book is so big. There are a lot of instructions to learn.

There was a group of Christian missionaries that lost their faith during the revolution in China. They thought that they were going through the tribulation and had been abandoned by the Father. But if they had studied a little more, they would have known that the signs were all wrong. Israel had not been restored. And the land wasn't yet parted. Nor had a number of other prophecies been fulfilled at that time.

So unless someone I know is planning to drink poisoned kool-aid and wait on the spaceship trailing a comet, I think I will rely on the scriptures rather than trying to help protect 'safe' doctrine. He knows what He is doing.

Thank you for sharing what you have learned. You have given me much to think about. I hope I have done the same for you.

Be Blessed Brother,
Phillip

yoSAMite
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:37 PM
So, no Christians will be indwelt by the Holy Spirit during this supposed 7-year tribulation period? I don't find that to be a reasonable theory at all.I tried to be very specific in that I said "the Holy Spirit indwelt in the church." It seems to me that the Holy Spirit has a unique and specific role within the church as demonstrated by the verses below.
John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me
John 16:7 - Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you

It's in this same role as Comforter that I'm referring to. Now do I totally understand this, I have to admit no. But for one to contend that the Holy Spirit leaves and will not indwell other saints after this event they would also have to believe that He was not around before the resurrection of Christ. I know you don't believe that so the argument really isn't one.


Also, read verse 3 above carefully. It says that day (the day of the coming of the Lord and our being gathered unto Him) can't happen until the falling away and the man of sin are revealed first. But you have the gathering unto Him occurring before the falling away and the man of sin being revealed. How do you reconcile that?First a question. So you're interpretation is that this letter was written because the Thessalonians feared they missed the 2nd Coming?
My belief is that the Day of Lord is a time period which includes the Great Tribulation. Therefore my timeline seems to be cohesive with that view. This time period, the Great Tribulation (which they felt they were going through and the reason for this letter) cannot happen until the apostacy and the man of sin is revealed. The man of sin cannot be revealed until the Holy Spirit, in His position of the indweller of the church, leaves. So we have the rapture, the man of sin revealed, then the great tribulation.


Of course I disagree, but we can still talk about it. I see that you quoted some verses from Matthew 24, but where do you see a pre-trib rapture described there?I guess I don't other than it seems to be written to Jewish crowd in particular with no pointed reference to the church, who by their absence may already be gone. But what it does show is that if my assertion above is correct we have Jesus returning after the great tribulation and those are my verses that answer your original question. And I don't mind discussions at all. My heart and head needs to assured that what I believe matches up with God Word.