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Gentile
Jul 16th 2008, 05:12 PM
Not on this earth at least. Maybe when we reach the kingdom of GOD we will all be on the same page.

Think about we as christians think what we want and all percieve the bible and versus differently, which is fine. Maybe GOD wants us to use him that way. I try to take it straight forward though.

Is it just me or does this board make you go insane at times?

Metadyjital
Jul 16th 2008, 05:43 PM
Drives me totally insane too. Actually modern day christianity in many ways does not work - now I dont mean that Jesus does not work... What I mean is that modern christianity is focus inwardly - Jesus focus was outward - His ministry was focus on serving others - not on serving Himself

as long as our faith is for simple use of serving ourselves and not others - we will continue to bicker

Buzzword
Jul 16th 2008, 06:17 PM
Pretty much.

We're all too focused on differences of opinion or interpretation and the resulting debates/arguments/fights/churchsplittings...instead of focusing on being relevant to today in the here and now, and allowing God to reach people on a personal level through us.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 16th 2008, 06:44 PM
Some of the splits are absolutely necessary.

How many of you would want to fellowship with a church that denies Jesus was God? How many of you wan to become members, or welcome into the fold, Universalists or Unitarians?

The fact is, such splits are necessary. Even over smaller things it is nice to have denominations - when a baby is born, do we baptize him as a sign of entering into a covenant community, or wait until he has made his decision in Christ in order to be baptized?

The reason these splits will always exist - and should exist - is because our understanding of the Bible and what the Spirit tells us is fallible and subject to gross error. Likewise, such divisions can often keep the Church pure.

Buzzword
Jul 16th 2008, 06:51 PM
Some of the splits are absolutely necessary.

How many of you would want to fellowship with a church that denies Jesus was God? How many of you wan to become members, or welcome into the fold, Universalists or Unitarians?

The fact is, such splits are necessary. Even over smaller things it is nice to have denominations - when a baby is born, do we baptize him as a sign of entering into a covenant community, or wait until he has made his decision in Christ in order to be baptized?

The reason these splits will always exist - and should exist - is because our understanding of the Bible and what the Spirit tells us is fallible and subject to gross error. Likewise, such divisions can often keep the Church pure.

Necessary?
All they do is show the outside world that we can't agree to disagree and continue working towards the same goal!

Why can't we have an atmosphere within the church of constant re-evaluation and positive correction...intead of automatically breaking off and further fragmenting the family?


Has the church EVER been "pure"?

apothanein kerdos
Jul 16th 2008, 07:08 PM
Necessary?
All they do is show the outside world that we can't agree to disagree and continue working towards the same goal!

Why can't we have an atmosphere within the church of constant re-evaluation and positive correction...intead of automatically breaking off and further fragmenting the family?


Has the church EVER been "pure"?

Yes, necessary for the reasons I gave.

Do you think those reasons are wrong? Do you think we should fellowship and welcome into the fold Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, or people who buy into Neo-Orthodoxy or German Higher Criticism?

th1bill
Jul 16th 2008, 07:24 PM
... I must say that this is one of Satan's greatest lies. I haveb Christian friends from different religious stand points and we have no problem what-so-ever working, playing or discussing religion together. The common thread is that each of us, Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Pentacostal and others is that we fail but everyone of us seeks after the life of servitude as we are instructed to do. The problem with most "Christians" is that they have redefined the meaning of the title, Christian.
... My friends and I are fully aware that we have differences of opinion about the order of worship, speaking in tongues, baptismal regeneration and a long list of other matters and at the same time we know that these secondary issues have nothing to do with the Great Commission and the lost man's route to the foot of the cross. I do not see Christians having these problems you speak of. I do see factions claiming the name of Christ having these issues but I can do no less than to try to lead them back to the cross, to obey their Master and to pray that He will refocus their attention.
... I believe that the most important study anyone can undertake is to, in depth, study the marriage parables, as told by our LORD Himself. I, long ago discovered that not every person in Heaven will be a member of the Bride of Christ but that the majority of those there will be the wedding guests, save from Hell but not members of the bride. I'm certainly not positive that I'll be in the Bride myself but there is nothing else that I seek after.

Bethany67
Jul 16th 2008, 07:25 PM
The way I see it, iron sharpens iron (Proverbs 27:17) and sparks fly from that. We're all at different levels of spiritual growth, and even the early church didn't see eye-to-eye on absolutely everything, starting with complaints about widows being left out, Paul and Peter falling out, false teachers being identified and warned against. We won't have perfection this side of eternity. When I look at church history, I see division arising when the Holy Spirit brings into focus an element of truth that the existing church forgot, and without overriding people's free will, dissension is inevitable, especially where gross error is concerned - there is no option then but to separate. You can't contend for the truth without coming up against someone else's opinion.

Bethany67
Jul 16th 2008, 07:27 PM
I, long ago discovered that not every person in Heaven will be a member of the Bride of Christ but that the majority of those there will be the wedding guests, save from Hell but not members of the bride. I'm certainly not positive that I'll be in the Bride myself but there is nothing else that I seek after.


Interesting - can you expand on this please?

Buzzword
Jul 16th 2008, 07:34 PM
Yes, necessary for the reasons I gave.

Do you think those reasons are wrong? Do you think we should fellowship and welcome into the fold Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, or people who buy into Neo-Orthodoxy or German Higher Criticism?

Define "the fold".

None of us share ALL our beliefs.

Most of us fit with the Apostle's Creed, but even the inner workings of THAT are subject to questioning.

I've heard people who call themselves "Christians" say that anyone who claims to be a Christian and doesn't believe in the Trinity is a cultist, then hear OTHERS who call themselves "Christians" say that the Trinity is a heretical doctrine, and that the Holy Spirit isn't a person, but an electricity-like "force."

Who is right? Are BOTH right?

Would you call it "necessary" for a church that is otherwise strong and growing and impacting people's lives to split and hence become impotent on an issue like this?

Butch5
Jul 16th 2008, 07:48 PM
We disagree, becasue we don't understand what the Bible teaches.

Buzzword
Jul 16th 2008, 07:59 PM
We disagree, becasue we don't understand what the Bible teaches.

Doesn't that imply that there is some "secret" meaning to Scripture that none of us will ever understand?
Sounds too close to Gnosticism.

The Bible may or may not be what we need at a given moment.
The more important focus should be on staying open to what God has to say, regardless of the tool He uses to say it.


Or are you saying that the Bible teaches blind compliance with whoever happens to be the "church" authority at any given time, and that we disagree because we refuse to just nod without regard to what is being said?

faithfulfriend
Jul 16th 2008, 07:59 PM
We disagree, becasue we don't understand what the Bible teaches.

Why would God give us his Word if he knew we wouldn't be able to understand it? That doesn't exactly make sense, what's the point of having it then?

Metadyjital
Jul 16th 2008, 08:24 PM
There are some meanings to scripture that are only discernable by the Spirit - the Bible teaches us that. I think a couple of things

A) Some people quote scripture out of context - but I have a deeper theory here and that is alot of people READ the scriptures out of context. In Hermenuetics one studies the Bible in immediate relation to the time and the place of its writting and then to modern day etc...
what was said, to who, what is the principle and so on...

many times scripture is simply read out of context

B) In similar fashion the text is perceived and translated through doctrinal philosophies - denominations and such in thsi manner we read the text through Baptist glasses or Catholic glasses or insert whatever name you like best

Is that all wrong? Yes of course, but it's not heretical persay... The heresy of it all is the seperation that occures... this is most unfortunate since the principle prayer of Jesus Christ was "that they may all be one"

Butch5
Jul 16th 2008, 08:25 PM
Why would God give us his Word if he knew we wouldn't be able to understand it? That doesn't exactly make sense, what's the point of having it then?

It's because we are lazy and don't study it. We study commentaries.

Butch5
Jul 16th 2008, 08:45 PM
Doesn't that imply that there is some "secret" meaning to Scripture that none of us will ever understand?
Sounds too close to Gnosticism.

The Bible may or may not be what we need at a given moment.
The more important focus should be on staying open to what God has to say, regardless of the tool He uses to say it.


Or are you saying that the Bible teaches blind compliance with whoever happens to be the "church" authority at any given time, and that we disagree because we refuse to just nod without regard to what is being said?

Matadtjital has touched on it in his post. We do not study the Bible we study commentaries, we listen to preachers without checking to make sure they are correct, If our pastor preaches a message we accept it. We accept what is commonly understood without questioning and looking at the Scriptures. I'll give you an example. I listen to the Scripture a lot. I've listened to the NT many times over. Let me ask a question, If I asked where do we go when we die? I'll bet 95% would say to heaven. Why because that is what we have been taught. Have we checked he Scriptures to see if this is correct? No, because 95% say we go to heaven. At this point, that 95% probably think I am nuts. However look at the Scriptures. With the exception of Revelation (which is largely symbolic and at a time we do know), see if you can find one Scripture that says we go to heaven when we die. You won't find one. However you will find scriptures like these,


John 3:13 ( KJV ) 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Acts 2:34 ( KJV ) 34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,


Acts 2:27 ( KJV ) 27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

hell=Hades


1 Samuel 28:12-15 ( KJV ) 12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.



15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.




Up from where? Hades




John 14:3 ( KJV ) 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


If we go to heaven when we die who is Jesus coming back for? He told the disciples he would come back for them.


1 Thessalonians 4:16 ( KJV ) 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

If everyone is in Heaven who is going to rise.


Luke 23:43 ( KJV ) 43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

In paradise not Heaven.



Luke 16:22-23 ( KJV ) 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

This is just to make a point. There are more verses. Hades is the place where the dead go both the righteous and the unrighteous until the judgment. Most people believe that we go to Heaven when we die because they just believe what people tell them instead of searching the Scriptures and in the end we wind up just perpetuating error. If we were to study the culture and the language and the issues of the day we would make leaps and bounds in our understanding of the Scriptures.

Athanasius
Jul 16th 2008, 08:56 PM
Doesn't that imply that there is some "secret" meaning to Scripture that none of us will ever understand?
Sounds too close to Gnosticism.

Or Brian McClaren.

And I agree with Apothanein, there are splits that are necessary.

Metadyjital
Jul 16th 2008, 09:04 PM
I dont think splits are necessary - but I dont get to worked up over them either

latitude is necessary - we should come together under the banner of Jesus Chirst and not be so afraid our precious pet doctrines might get stepped on - we should be men and women on a journey seeking higher and greater understandings of God's truth - not constantly confining God and who God is to our truth - we have way to much of that – “Im Baptist” – “I’m Pentecostal” and so on – why can we not just be follower of Jesus Christ and leave it at that…

The modern day church has lost the crux of the message, the antiphony of our views and opinions clouds are ability to hear from God, to hear from the Spirit which desires to illuminate the way, the truth and the life more clearly to us

apothanein kerdos
Jul 16th 2008, 09:09 PM
Define "the fold".


True Christians. I'd say those that can hold to the Apostolic Creed (since it's drawn fro Scripture) with a straight face would qualify.


None of us share ALL our beliefs.

Most of us fit with the Apostle's Creed, but even the inner workings of THAT are subject to questioning.


You ignored my question. Would you accept a Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, or Unitarian into the fold? Would you let them attend your church, be a member, and claim that they are Christians?


I've heard people who call themselves "Christians" say that anyone who claims to be a Christian and doesn't believe in the Trinity is a cultist, then hear OTHERS who call themselves "Christians" say that the Trinity is a heretical doctrine, and that the Holy Spirit isn't a person, but an electricity-like "force."

Scripturally those that deny the Trinity - which is the character of Christ - and understand what the Trinity is teaching are not saved. How can they be a part of the Church? The same goes with the Holy Spirit not being a person.


Who is right? Are BOTH right?
No, the Trinitarians are right.


Would you call it "necessary" for a church that is otherwise strong and growing and impacting people's lives to split and hence become impotent on an issue like this?

That's a loaded question (thus one that cannot be answered). It's the equivalent of asking, "So, when did you stop beating your wife?" Answer it and no matter what you're admitting that at some point in your life you have beat her.

The question is flawed because it assumes that a church can actually function and have a proper Biblical influence on people's lives (not a psychological, we all feel happy, kind of influence). If it became an issue where the pastor was teaching there was no Trinity, the Holy Spirit was a force and not a person, and that Jesus merely looked like a human, but wasn't, then yeah, I'd take as many members as I could and leave that church to set one up that glorified God.

The purpose of the Church is to glorify God - part of this is by impacting people, but this can only happen consistently if we are right in our major doctrines. A Presbyterian and a Southern Baptist can certainly work together on the mission field, but a Presbyterian and a Mormon don't even agree on basics, so the split is absolutely necessary.


Now here's my question to everyone here - was Paul wrong for advocating that the early Church cast out believers and false teachers that taught a Gospel contrary to Christ? Was the early Church wrong for kicking out Gnostics?

If you say yes, then you believe splits are sometimes necessary (what I am advocating). If you say no then you're saying part of Scripture is fallible.

crawfish
Jul 16th 2008, 11:21 PM
Not on this earth at least. Maybe when we reach the kingdom of GOD we will all be on the same page.

Think about we as christians think what we want and all percieve the bible and versus differently, which is fine. Maybe GOD wants us to use him that way. I try to take it straight forward though.

Is it just me or does this board make you go insane at times?

YOU ARE WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!! REPENT!!!

OK, I'm kidding. :)

Joe King
Jul 17th 2008, 12:43 AM
I feel relief, happiness and love (in that order) toward anyone that will accept Jesus Christ as their LORD and savior. There are so many people that haven't:cry::cry::cry:

As long as they believe in one God and that Jesus is the son of God and that God created the heavens and earth and everything on it, that's fine with me.

th1bill
Jul 17th 2008, 05:01 AM
Interesting - can you expand on this please?
it is so much better to let the Holy Spirit of God do that and the parables are very easy to find, they can even be located by searching Google for them.

MyRock
Jul 17th 2008, 07:49 AM
I don't belive it's very difficult to get along with fellow believers of differing doctrinal views.

Apart from some of the most far out doctrines that deny the divinity of Christ most denominations will hold to Christ's deity.

Most of the things christians dissagree on are the minor doctrinal points, i.e those which do not hinge your Salvation.
Disernment is the key. As James says, "By your fruits ye shall no them."
(....er....is it James?:blush: )

EDIT= WRONG! It was Jesus!
(Well it carries more weight then!) :)


Also we are human and as such are not perfect. It's very easy as well to let your ego get too inflated and try to win an argument for your flesh to feel good. (not all are but it's something we can all be suseptable to)

If someone believes that Jesus is Lord, Saviour and God then we have a connection in His blood. We all hear in this thread believe this. We are heavenly family. That by the way makes me feel very happy indeed! :pp

Thaddaeus
Jul 17th 2008, 08:27 AM
The reason these splits will always exist - and should exist - is because our understanding of the Bible and what the Spirit tells us is fallible and subject to gross error. Likewise, such divisions can often keep the Church pure.[/quote]

Jas 3:16 (http://bibleforums.org/jas+3:16)For where envying and strife is, there is CONFUSION and every evil work.



1co 14:33 (http://bibleforums.org/1co+14:33)For God is not the author of CONFUSION, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

divisions have not kept the Church pure. it is man saying I know more about the Bible than anyone else and this is what it says, then another man saying, no I know more and this is what it says.
when we look up the word denomination in the dictionary we should read man's pride, if we are the body of Christ then one body, if the left foot says it is this way and the right foot it is the other way not only are we no getting any where but we are doing a split. all the body parts must work together. the reason we can't get along is because we don't Submit ourselves to God, and RESIST THE devil, we walk in the flesh and not in the spirit. God says that the way is straight and narrow and the devil says no its wide and any way will do so who do we listen to :hmm:



"what the Spirit tells us is fallible and subject to gross error"
I am not sure what spirit you mean when you say the spirit here in this statement but if you mean the Holy Spirit, this would then be real close to Blasphemy

Thaddaeus
Jul 17th 2008, 08:57 AM
[quote=Butch5;1712773]Matadtjital has touched on it in his post. We do not study the Bible we study commentaries, we listen to preachers without checking to make sure they are correct, If our pastor preaches a message we accept it. We accept what is commonly understood without questioning and looking at the Scriptures. I'll give you an example. I listen to the Scripture a lot. I've listened to the NT many times over. Let me ask a question, If I asked where do we go when we die? I'll bet 95% would say to heaven. Why because that is what we have been taught.



1 Thessalonians 4:16 ( KJV ) 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


If everyone is in Heaven who is going to rise.



We read what we want to read, we make the Bible to say what we want it to say by taking a few verses and not every verse about the subject . if you are trying to prove this, you did a fine example of not the way to study the Bible, I can't believe that you know all these verses about hell and not know about these

Mt 17:2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.Mt 17:3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.


nothing here about hell, Paul was talking about John when he said
2co 12:2 (http://bibleforums.org/2co+12:2)I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN.

john was caught up not brought down, then went on to tell about the saints he saw in heaven in Rev..


If everyone is in Heaven who is going to rise. here is your answer the same answer you get in thes.4, those that are asleep in Christ (the dead)
remember When Jesus saidMt 9:24 (http://bibleforums.org/mt+9:24)He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but SLEEPETH. And they laughed him to scorn.
and also

oh 11:11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.Joh 11:12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.Joh 11:13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.Joh 11:14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

so here is your answer if we go to heaven who will rise, as if you really didn't know , but rather failed to mention because it does not support your belief
1co 15:51Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,1co 15:52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.1co 15:53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.1co 15:54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.1co 15:55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Athanasius
Jul 17th 2008, 02:04 PM
"what the Spirit tells us is fallible and subject to gross error"
I am not sure what spirit you mean when you say the spirit here in this statement but if you mean the Holy Spirit, this would then be real close to Blasphemy

Our understanding of what the Spirit tells us. Not 'what the Spirit tells us'. You left out those very important words.

th1bill
Jul 17th 2008, 02:46 PM
Interesting - can you expand on this please?
... I'll be much more co-operative now that I know you have met with Daughter. I was intentionally staying out of the way until the two of you had met one another. She has explained the crossings of your paths and all I can say is praise God. I will also be in prayer for your mate. I met Neil just before His conversion and have been friends with Daughter for a bit longer.
... The parables I spoke of are in Matthew 22 and 25. In the first we find, "Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a certain king, who made a marriage feast for his son." In this parable we find that the guest list was prepared and sent out and the guests all agreed to be there at the appointed time. These I liken unto the general assembly of any church that meets on any day of any week in any land. (A Barnum survey, given in a double blind fashion, has demonstrated that slightly better than 9% of the faithful of the church actually believe the tenants of the faith.) Since the faithful, attending service 3 times a week or better, compose about 10% of the church it means that less that less than 1% of the church will be raptured because they actually have answered the call and have believed.
... Then, "Mat 22:7 But the king was wroth; and he sent his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned their city.
Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they that were bidden were not worthy." It will be a sad day for those that have been in church for business and for appearances. But a proper wedding must have more than the Bride and the Groom, "Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore unto the partings of the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage feast.
Mat 22:10 And those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was filled with guests." Because of these verses I do believe that many that have lost their way that once sincerely believed and that many that have believed but not yet found their path will attend the wedding as guests. They will not be part of the Bride of Christ but they will never see one moment in Hell either, they have believed.
... "1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials,
1Pe 1:7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls." I believe that some of the members that have believed but have not committed and some that have believed but have not followed it through at the time will be in the guest party.
... The second parable, Matt. 25, is of the Ten Virgins and their Lamps. It tells us of the arrival of Christ and the requirement for us to be vigilant. I praise God for His work in your life and I hope for an alliance that will see us through the trials that are besetting us and are to soon be upon us. If you need prayer or any other help that a poor servant can render, please, do not hesitate to email or to PM me.
... Unlike Mary and yourselves, I am not an educated man but like both of you I am a soldier of the LORD our God.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 17th 2008, 02:52 PM
Jas 3:16For where envying and strife is, there is CONFUSION and every evil work.



1co 14:33For God is not the author of CONFUSION, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


These verses are entirely overused in the sense that people use them to say, "See, we can know everything." They, of course, ignore the fact that we're limited in our scope of knowledge.

The Greek word for confusion is just "instability." Paul is referring to in fights that had nothing to do with doctrine, but everything to do with morality and pride getting in the way.


divisions have not kept the Church pure. it is man saying I know more about the Bible than anyone else and this is what it says, then another man saying, no I know more and this is what it says.
when we look up the word denomination in the dictionary we should read man's pride, if we are the body of Christ then one body, if the left foot says it is this way and the right foot it is the other way not only are we no getting any where but we are doing a split. all the body parts must work together. the reason we can't get along is because we don't Submit ourselves to God, and RESIST THE devil, we walk in the flesh and not in the spirit. God says that the way is straight and narrow and the devil says no its wide and any way will do so who do we listen to

Then can you answer the questions I've presented? Everyone has this flowery view of Christianity where we can all get along, but of course you ignore my real life examples I've given.

Would you allow a Mormon in your midst? Would you allow a Gnostic? Would you allow someone that believes modern technology is evil?


"what the Spirit tells us is fallible and subject to gross error"
I am not sure what spirit you mean when you say the spirit here in this statement but if you mean the Holy Spirit, this would then be real close to Blasphemy

I said our understanding of what the Spirit tells us is fallible. Though what He says is infallible, our understanding and interpretation are fallible.

Butch and Thaddeus have proven perfectly why denominations exist and exactly why they are necessary. Both, seemingly, have assumed that anyone who believes we're going to Heaven immediately after death has been taught a false doctrine. Of course, a lot of people that teach this doctrine have actually studied it - but their idea of Christians getting together is when Christians follow their view of believing. Would they let a Calvinist be their preacher? Would they let a woman be their preacher?

It's easy to say, "We should all get along," but the differences are real because we are fallible.

Bethany67
Jul 17th 2008, 03:02 PM
Thank you, Bill - I'm going to mull over this and come to you privately if I have any questions. I always welcome prayer, especially for my unsaved husband.

Athanasius
Jul 17th 2008, 06:40 PM
Oh and by the way, being 'divided' doesn't mean we aren't getting along.

faithfulfriend
Jul 17th 2008, 06:42 PM
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

God didn't intend for there to be any divisions at all, in fact his Word says to mark those who cause divisions:

1Co 1:10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Ro 16:17 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 17th 2008, 07:00 PM
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

God didn't intend for there to be any divisions at all, in fact his Word says to mark those who cause divisions:

1Co 1:10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Ro 16:17 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

It doesn't take much to take scripture out of context. Why don't you actually supply a proper exegesis to this passage before attempting to apply it to the discussion? ;)

faithfulfriend
Jul 17th 2008, 07:19 PM
It doesn't take much to take scripture out of context. Why don't you actually supply a proper exegesis to this passage before attempting to apply it to the discussion? ;)

No, nothing taken out of context. Simple question was asked "Is Christ divided?"

Well, is he? All throughout the Bible God's Word declares unity among the brethren and among the church:

Ps 133:1 ¶ Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

Ro 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1Co 12:12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

2Co 13:11 ¶ Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Php 1:27 ¶ Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

1Pe 3:8 ¶ Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

Ac 2:1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord [mind] in one place.

Even Christ prayed for unity:

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Unity is an in depth study, way deeper than the few scriptures I have presented here. But my basic point is that Christ is in unity, not division(s).

apothanein kerdos
Jul 17th 2008, 07:48 PM
No, nothing taken out of context. Simple question was asked "Is Christ divided?"

Well, is he? All throughout the Bible God's Word declares unity among the brethren and among the church:

Ps 133:1 ¶ Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

Ro 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1Co 12:12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

2Co 13:11 ¶ Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Php 1:27 ¶ Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

1Pe 3:8 ¶ Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

Ac 2:1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord [mind] in one place.

Even Christ prayed for unity:

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Unity is an in depth study, way deeper than the few scriptures I have presented here. But my basic point is that Christ is in unity, not division(s).

So that means we can accept people into the fold who don't really believe Jesus existed, but was just a spiritual myth we should follow, right?

faithfulfriend
Jul 17th 2008, 08:00 PM
So that means we can accept people into the fold who don't really believe Jesus existed, but was just a spiritual myth we should follow, right?

I never said that.....

If an individual doesn't believe Christ existed, then they aren't apart of the fold. You can't be apart of something you don't believe in.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 17th 2008, 08:17 PM
I never said that.....

If an individual doesn't believe Christ existed, then they aren't apart of the fold. You can't be apart of something you don't believe in.

According to whom? They're apart from the fold? So at this point you've set a doctrinal "line in the sand." You're saying, "Anyone not on this side of the line isn't in the club."

You've divided the body of Christ.

We all create these lines in the sand - the only question is where we place them.

faithfulfriend
Jul 17th 2008, 08:23 PM
According to whom? They're apart from the fold? So at this point you've set a doctrinal "line in the sand." You're saying, "Anyone not on this side of the line isn't in the club."

You've divided the body of Christ.

We all create these lines in the sand - the only question is where we place them.

Christian unity is for the Christians....(believers). I didn't know I was confusing you.

I used Bible to back up my points, so argue with God's Word not me. I said NOTHING to divide the body of Christ, I actually used scripture to prove that there is UNITY in the body of Christ.

You asked the question concerning those who don't believe in Jesus. Those who don't believe in Jesus are obviously unbelievers.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Those who believe not are NOT apart of the body of Christ. Quite simple really.

Christ himself told those who were unbelievers:

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Those who are unbelievers:

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

And last but not least:

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The unbelieving will be cast into the lake of Fire. Now how can you tell me that they may be apart of the body of Christ if they are unbelievers? The body of Christ is going to Heaven, not the lake of Fire.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 17th 2008, 08:30 PM
Christian unity is for the Christians....(believers). I didn't know I was confusing you.

I used Bible to back up my points, so argue with God's Word not me. I said NOTHING to divide the body of Christ, I actually used scripture to prove that there is UNITY in the body of Christ.

You asked the question concerning those who don't believe in Jesus. Those who don't believe in Jesus are obviously unbelievers.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Those who believe not are NOT apart of the body of Christ. Quite simple really.

Christ himself told those who were unbelievers:

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Those who are unbelievers:

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

And last but not least:

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The unbelieving will be cast into the lake of Fire. Now how can you tell me that they may be apart of the body of Christ if they are unbelievers? The body of Christ is going to Heaven, not the lake of Fire.

What if I said the Bible is not God's Word, but merely contains God's Word. Thus, some Scripture might be true while other parts might not be true? This would mean the passages you wrote above, in this hypothetical belief, were most likely written by angry followers that wanted to create an exclusive religion. After years of persecution, they just didn't want to accept anyone. Thus, the passages are irrelevant because they really aren't inspired. Am I still accepted into the fold?

OneOfVeracity
Jul 17th 2008, 08:35 PM
What if I said the Bible is not God's Word, but merely contains God's Word. Thus, some Scripture might be true while other parts might not be true? This would mean the passages you wrote above, in this hypothetical belief, were most likely written by angry followers that wanted to create an exclusive religion. After years of persecution, they just didn't want to accept anyone. Thus, the passages are irrelevant because they really aren't inspired. Am I still accepted into the fold?

I suggest you read II Tim 3:16-17 and II Pe 2:20-21 --- that'll answer your question.

Athanasius
Jul 17th 2008, 08:46 PM
I don't mean to be rude, but Apothanein Kerdos is pointing out something that would appear to be going over most of all of your heads. Re-read how he's saying what he's saying.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 17th 2008, 09:09 PM
I suggest you read II Tim 3:16-17 and II Pe 2:20-21 --- that'll answer your question.

Yeah, but I could easily argue that these were written both by Paul and Peter, both of whom had an agenda and weren't always in their right mind. Likewise, I could argue that Scripture isn't always found in the Bible - it is only we who have made the two synonymous.

Now, I don't believe the above, but at the same time here's my point: there are those who are Christians who do believe in heresies. Believing in an heresy does not automatically disqualify a person's salvation - it just means that the person is heavily misguided. Should we let such people teach in our churches?

My point in all of this is that petty differences - Jon wants a parking lot with 25 spots, bill wants one with 30, let's split the church over it - should be ignored. However, in order for a church to function with unity, denominations are often necessary. I love the Presbyterian church, but I believe in a believer's baptism. Now, if both of us were hardcore in our beliefs, how could I join a Presbyterian church knowing full well they baptize infants?

How could I join an Assemblies of God church when I disagree with much of what they say?

The fact is, this side of eternity none of us has a 100% grasp on truth, but we sure think we do. This causes divisions that are sometimes necessary in order for the church to function.

mcgyver
Jul 17th 2008, 09:40 PM
First of all, I agree with both X'el and A. Kerdos that on occasion division is not only necessary, but in fact scripturally mandated (gasp).

Here is a great example: The Judaizers (ever heard of them?). Paul and the Apostle John both had a great deal to say about them...but here is an interesting point: many Judaizers had accepted Jesus as Messiah...but they were teaching that for a gentile to be a Christian, he must first become a Jew.

There are also principles involved in the following Scriptures (that although directed at individuals) may be equally applied to 10, 20, 50, or 1000 for that matter:

Matt 18: 15-17:

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. (Emphasis mine)

Separation and a breaking of fellowship.

1 Corinthians 5: 1-6

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (Emphasis mine)

Separation and a breaking of fellowship

There is a time and a place for what is known as ecclesiastical separation, the object is to correctly discern that time.

mcgyver
Jul 17th 2008, 10:03 PM
No, nothing taken out of context. Simple question was asked "Is Christ divided?"

Well, is he? All throughout the Bible God's Word declares unity among the brethren and among the church:

Ps 133:1 ¶ Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

Ro 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1Co 12:12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

2Co 13:11 ¶ Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Php 1:27 ¶ Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

1Pe 3:8 ¶ Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

Ac 2:1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord [mind] in one place.

Even Christ prayed for unity:

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Unity is an in depth study, way deeper than the few scriptures I have presented here. But my basic point is that Christ is in unity, not division(s).

I would lovingly and gently point out that by this understanding that:

1. The Reformation should never have occurred.
2. We never should have split from the RCC.
3. We need to acknowledge the "Apostolic Succession" of the guy in Rome.
4. We need to fall in line with the Canons of Justification from the Council of Trent.
5. Etc. etc. etc....

And there are quite a few Born-Again Christians who still attend that "denomination"...:)

jewel4Christ
Jul 17th 2008, 10:30 PM
hmmmm,

I agree with the idea that we are not to CAUSE divisions.

There appears to be a difference between causing division, and putting out those whom reject the basic gospel.

I think we are to treat our brothers and sisters as we ourselves would want to be treated...with respect.

If a person is outside of the gospel, then, we are to respectfully tell them first in private, and then openly, if they reject correction in private.

All other issues do not fit into the mold, though. Men have made the mold, wider than the word of God has, in mho.


The problem today is that in some cases, no one even knows or understands what the gospel is..and, much has been added to it that does not even fit in it.

Traditions of men, are not a part of the gospel, and that is the problem.

God's church is not a denomination. He has true believers in all of them. It is men that divide God's people, but God has all of them quite united...in HIS HAND.

Just my two cents, lol.....;)

peaceandlove,


janet

Joe King
Jul 18th 2008, 12:10 AM
God's church is not a denomination. He has true believers in all of them. It is men that divide God's people, but God has all of them quite united...in HIS HAND.

Just my two cents, lol.....;)

peaceandlove,


janet

I love it!!!:pp:pp:pp

apothanein kerdos
Jul 18th 2008, 03:16 AM
First of all, I agree with both X'el and A. Kerdos that on occasion division is not only necessary, but in fact scripturally mandated (gasp).

Here is a great example: The Judaizers (ever heard of them?). Paul and the Apostle John both had a great deal to say about them...but here is an interesting point: many Judaizers had accepted Jesus as Messiah...but they were teaching that for a gentile to be a Christian, he must first become a Jew.

There are also principles involved in the following Scriptures (that although directed at individuals) may be equally applied to 10, 20, 50, or 1000 for that matter:

Matt 18: 15-17:

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. (Emphasis mine)

Separation and a breaking of fellowship.

1 Corinthians 5: 1-6

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (Emphasis mine)

Separation and a breaking of fellowship

There is a time and a place for what is known as ecclesiastical separation, the object is to correctly discern that time.

Absolutely correct. There are times when division is absolutely necessary - it is difficult when it comes, but it is necessary.

faithfulfriend
Jul 18th 2008, 12:42 PM
Absolutely correct. There are times when division is absolutely necessary - it is difficult when it comes, but it is necessary.

It's obvious that the Bible scriptures I posted you simply ignored, or just don't believe. The Bible is God's word (II Timothy 3:16, Acts 1:16, II Peter 1:21)

The following scriptures/study will most likely not change your mind, but I typed it up for you anyway :). The Bible very thoroughly teaches complete Christian unity, and that there are to be no divisions among Christians. To say divisions are necessary is to go completely contrary to the Word of God.

Unity: 1. The state of being one; oneness. Unity may consist of a simple substance or existing being, as the soul; but usually it consists in a close junction of particles or parts, constituting a body detached from other bodies. Unity is a thing undivided itself, but separate from ever other thing.
2.Concord; conjunction; as a unity of proofs.
3. Agreement; uniformity; as unity of doctrine; unity of worship in a church.
4. In christian theology, oneness of sentiment, affection or behavior.


Unity among Christians is desirable:
Ps 133:1-3 ¶ Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.

Christian unity is possible because Christ:
Prayed for it:
Joh 17:17 ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Joh 17:20-23 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Gave his life to effect it:
Joh 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Christian unity consists in:
Unity of the Spirit:
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Joh 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Unity of the faith:
Eph 4:11-16 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Php 1:27 ¶ Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

All having one mind:
2Co 13:11 ¶ Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
1Pe 3:8 ¶ Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

All being baptized by one Spirit, into one body (church):
1Co 12:13-20 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body.
Ro 12:4-5 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

All having one Spirit:
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Php 1:27 ¶ Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

All working together in the work of the gospel:
Php 1:27 ¶ Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

All speaking the same thing:
1Co 1:10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Ro 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

One heart and soul:
Ac 4:31-33 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

One name:
Joh 17:11-12 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

No division:
Joh 17:20-23 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
1Co 1:10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Ro 16:17 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Result of unity among God’s people:
It convinces the world:
Joh 17:21-23 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Great power is manifested among them:
Ac 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

We as God’s people should:
Endeavor to keep unity:
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Strive together:
Php 1:27 ¶ Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

apothanein kerdos
Jul 18th 2008, 12:50 PM
It's obvious that the Bible scriptures I posted you simply ignored, or just don't believe. The Bible is God's word (II Timothy 3:16, Acts 1:16, II Peter 1:21)

The following scriptures/study will most likely not change your mind, but I typed it up for you anyway :). The Bible very thoroughly teaches complete Christian unity, and that there are to be no divisions among Christians. To say divisions are necessary is to go completely contrary to the Word of God.




Quoting random passages that don't deal with what I'm saying don't mean a thing to me.

You simply ignored the question - what if I don't believe those passages are inspired? Am I still allowed to teach in your church?

What if you have half your congregation that wants to baptize a baby and the other half doesn't? What if half your congregation doesn't want your pastor to get married but the other half has no problem with it? What if half your congregation doesn't believe the Bible is inspired but the other half does? What if half your congregation believes we should evangelize but the other half believes it's up to God to evangelize?

What do you do then? Looks like your misapplication and misinterpretation of Scripture doesn't cover these situations. This means one of two things: (1) Scripture is inefficient or (2) you're misinterpreting Scripture and reading it prima facie without studying what is actually being said. Which is it?

faithfulfriend
Jul 18th 2008, 01:05 PM
Quoting random passages that don't deal with what I'm saying don't mean a thing to me.

You simply ignored the question - what if I don't believe those passages are inspired? Am I still allowed to teach in your church?

We don't have that problem in the church of God. Everyone believes the same, follows God's Word the same, and follows each doctrine the same. It's called "unity" which is what I've been trying to show you.


What if you have half your congregation that wants to baptize a baby and the other half doesn't? What if half your congregation doesn't want your pastor to get married but the other half has no problem with it? What if half your congregation doesn't believe the Bible is inspired but the other half does? What if half your congregation believes we should evangelize but the other half believes it's up to God to evangelize?

As I've stated before, we don't even have that issue. God's people all believe the same thing, the same mind, the same judgment, the same doctrine, etc. We are ONE in Christ, ONE body, ONE faith, ONE baptism. Just as the Bible commands. God's church doesn't have an issue with "Half believing this, and half believing that". God's people ALL believe the SAME.


What do you do then? Looks like your misapplication and misinterpretation of Scripture doesn't cover these situations. This means one of two things: (1) Scripture is inefficient or (2) you're misinterpreting Scripture and reading it prima facie without studying what is actually being said. Which is it?

Once again, this isn't even an issue for God's church. So I guess I really don't have an answer for you.....there are no divisions in God's church because we all believe the same. It's too awesome to really explain into words the unity that God's people have.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 18th 2008, 01:08 PM
I would never go to your church if I knew that you didn't believe the Bible and you did not believe all of it was inspired. You either take 100% of the Bible, or 0% of the Bible. You cannot pick and choose what passages you think are true and what passages you think are not true. It's all or nothing with God.

But what about unity? :rolleyes:

Thank you for proving my point though.

faithfulfriend
Jul 18th 2008, 01:13 PM
But what about unity? :rolleyes:

Thank you for proving my point though.

Re-read the post, I noticed you updated your's so I updated mine.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 18th 2008, 01:22 PM
We don't have that problem in the church of God. Everyone believes the same, follows God's Word the same, and follows each doctrine the same. It's called "unity" which is what I've been trying to show you.



As I've stated before, we don't even have that issue. God's people all believe the same thing, the same mind, the same judgment, the same doctrine, etc. We are ONE in Christ, ONE body, ONE faith, ONE baptism. Just as the Bible commands. God's church doesn't have an issue with "Half believing this, and half believing that". God's people ALL believe the SAME.



Once again, this isn't even an issue for God's church. So I guess I really don't have an answer for you.....there are no divisions in God's church because we all believe the same. It's too awesome to really explain into words the unity that God's people have.


This, of course, is so absurd it'd be funny if it weren't so devastating. This means that of the pre-tribbers and post-tribbers, one of these people aren't in the Church of God (i.e. aren't saved). Of those that believe in speaking and tongues and those that don't, one group isn't saved. Of those that believe in Calvinism and those that don't, one group isn't saved. Of those that believe the Bible isn't infallible and those that do, one group isn't saved. Since we also 'follow the word of God the same,' that means of those that like to use praise groups instead of choirs, one of the groups isn't saved. Those that use pews instead of regular seats, one group isn't saved.

You can't be saved and be apart from God's Church - if you are saved you are part of God's Church. You're advocating that the true Church, those that are really saved, don't disagree on anything. That means if two people disagree on a theological or ecclesiastical point, one of them isn't saved.

When we narrow it down, nobody is saved and nobody is part of God's church because everyone differs somewhere along the line of theology.

faithfulfriend
Jul 18th 2008, 01:28 PM
This, of course, is so absurd it'd be funny if it weren't so devastating. This means that of the pre-tribbers and post-tribbers, one of these people aren't in the Church of God (i.e. aren't saved). Of those that believe in speaking and tongues and those that don't, one group isn't saved. Of those that believe in Calvinism and those that don't, one group isn't saved. Of those that believe the Bible isn't infallible and those that do, one group isn't saved. Since we also 'follow the word of God the same,' that means of those that like to use praise groups instead of choirs, one of the groups isn't saved. Those that use pews instead of regular seats, one group isn't saved.

You can't be saved and be apart from God's Church - if you are saved you are part of God's Church. You're advocating that the true Church, those that are really saved, don't disagree on anything. That means if two people disagree on a theological or ecclesiastical point, one of them isn't saved.

When we narrow it down, nobody is saved and nobody is part of God's church because everyone differs somewhere along the line of theology.

It's not absurd, and it's not exactly funny either. It's true.

The unity is unity of DOCTRINE, this is why it's very important to study your Bible, let God guide you, and he'll lead you to God's people. God never fails, neither does His Word.

Complete unity probably sounds absurd because perhaps you've never heard of it before. :hmm:

apothanein kerdos
Jul 18th 2008, 01:30 PM
It's not absurd, and it's not exactly funny either. It's true.

The unity is unity of DOCTRINE, this is why it's very important to study your Bible, let God guide you, and he'll lead you to God's people. God never fails, neither does His Word.

Complete unity probably sounds absurd because perhaps you've never heard of it before. :hmm:


Please stop skirting the issue. Are you saying that among those that believe in pre-tribulation and post-tribulation, assuming one of those views is right, does that mean people who do not adhere to that correct view are going to Hell?

faithfulfriend
Jul 18th 2008, 01:34 PM
Please stop skirting the issue. Are you saying that among those that believe in pre-tribulation and post-tribulation, assuming one of those views is right, does that mean people who do not adhere to that correct view are going to Hell?

I'm not skirting any issues on purpose.

It is possible for a person to be saved, yet be deceived by a false teaching. If the soul remains honest, God will guide them into all truth (John 16:13). They will be led into all truth and led to find a local body of truly saved & sanctified Christians who live holy and righteous everyday.

That answer your question?

apothanein kerdos
Jul 18th 2008, 01:39 PM
I'm not skirting any issues on purpose.

It is possible for a person to be saved, yet be deceived by a false teaching. If the soul remains honest, God will guide them into all truth (John 16:13). They will be led into all truth and led to find a local body of truly saved & sanctified Christians who live holy and righteous everyday.

That answer your question?

No, it doesn't. It is impossible to be apart of the Church (the body of Christ) and still be saved. To be saved means to be part of the Body. Thus, if there is nothing but unity and someone dies with a doctrine that is wrong (such as, pre-tribulation, assuming it's wrong), that means the person is going to Hell.

If you argue that he or she isn't going to Hell, then you have to agree that there are disagreements within the Body. If, however, you wish to hold to your previous definition, then if someone is not in 100% agreement with the Body (meaning he or she is 100% right on every issue of doctrine), then that person is going to Hell.

Which is it?

grptinHisHand
Jul 18th 2008, 02:24 PM
I was at Bible study in my church Wednesday evening. The study was from Ephesians 4:1-6. We had quite a discussion about church unity. I wish I had the teacher's outline to share here! But we all agreed that there are CORE values we MUST believe: such as John 14:6 - "Jesus said, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me." Can we all agree that is truth? If not we are not truly Christians. I also would say that unless we accept the Bible as God's inspired Word.

If any of it isn't true, then what parts are we to believe and which parts to discard? What do we do with 2 Timothy 3:16 then? :hmm:

There is a difference in differences and in divisions.

Let us respect differences regarding minor details: when a person is to be baptized, or sprinkled, when the 'rapture' will take place, whether men should or should not wear their hair long, whether or not women should speak up in church, whether or not women should preach. MINOR things! But our CORE belief that Jesus is the ONE and ONLY way to God, to Heaven must not be questioned if one calls himself or herself Christian!
IMHO.
Much more I could say, but I dislike long posts, even when I do it. ;) Doesn't mean I don't love those fellow Christians who make them. Good thing, because we do that at times.
May God bless those who have received Christ and seek to follow Him, whether we agree on which version of the Bible is best, etc......

May we share Him with others, by our lifestyles, by our words, by sharing with others His great all-encompassing love.

g

apothanein kerdos
Jul 18th 2008, 02:48 PM
I was at Bible study in my church Wednesday evening. The study was from Ephesians 4:1-6. We had quite a discussion about church unity. I wish I had the teacher's outline to share here! But we all agreed that there are CORE values we MUST believe: such as John 14:6 - "Jesus said, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me." Can we all agree that is truth? If not we are not truly Christians. I also would say that unless we accept the Bible as God's inspired Word.

If any of it isn't true, then what parts are we to believe and which parts to discard? What do we do with 2 Timothy 3:16 then? :hmm:

There is a difference in differences and in divisions.

Let us respect differences regarding minor details: when a person is to be baptized, or sprinkled, when the 'rapture' will take place, whether men should or should not wear their hair long, whether or not women should speak up in church, whether or not women should preach. MINOR things! But our CORE belief that Jesus is the ONE and ONLY way to God, to Heaven must not be questioned if one calls himself or herself Christian!
IMHO.
Much more I could say, but I dislike long posts, even when I do it. ;) Doesn't mean I don't love those fellow Christians who make them. Good thing, because we do that at times.
May God bless those who have received Christ and seek to follow Him, whether we agree on which version of the Bible is best, etc......

May we share Him with others, by our lifestyles, by our words, by sharing with others His great all-encompassing love.

g

This is where I tend to line up - there are "watershed" marks within Christianity that decide if we should divide or if it's just a difference. I believe there are core doctrines that one must adhere to and after they have been adhered to, we are free to roam so long as our doctrines don't effect these core doctrines.

The point being, however, that even amongst the differences it is best to sometimes remain separated in worship (but reach the community together) simply to keep the peace and keep these tiny issues from becoming bigger issues.

grptinHisHand
Jul 18th 2008, 02:55 PM
I have no problem whatsoever with the different denominations, as long as the teaching is Biblical truth, Jesus as Lord, the ONLY path that will get us to heaven, etc.
Yes, there are many gifts and we are not to all have all of them. We are not to judge those who believe differently than we do. Let God be judge, let Him reveal to them Himself. It is His job. :hug:

mcgyver
Jul 18th 2008, 03:17 PM
This is where I tend to line up - there are "watershed" marks within Christianity that decide if we should divide or if it's just a difference. I believe there are core doctrines that one must adhere to and after they have been adhered to, we are free to roam so long as our doctrines don't effect these core doctrines.

The point being, however, that even amongst the differences it is best to sometimes remain separated in worship (but reach the community together) simply to keep the peace and keep these tiny issues from becoming bigger issues.

Exactly!!!

We even see such in the NT...The Church at Jerusalem (having a Jewish background) did not worship in the same manner as the Church in Rome (gentile in background), who did not worship in the same manner as the Church in Corinth (they didn't even speak the same "native" tongue) :lol:

Yet they were all Christian Churches!

jewel4Christ
Jul 21st 2008, 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewel4Christ http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1714125#post1714125)
God's church is not a denomination. He has true believers in all of them. It is men that divide God's people, but God has all of them quite united...in HIS HAND.

Just my two cents, lol.....;)

peaceandlove,


janet


I love it!!!:pp:pp:ppIt is the spirit that quickens. The problem today amongst the denominations is that men tend to try to be that spirit.

If every christian followed just the spirit, everyone would agree, in other words.

We can be led astray into false theology.

Eventually, however, the spirit itself will work correction in us, in all things.

If we refuse that correction, we quench the spirit. That does not mean you must leave any given denomination...if you have found a part of their doctrine to be in error. I find that often it is easier to go with the flo, than the spirit, however.....and, that most the time, we do not even question any given "doctrine", until the Lord Himself deals with us on it. Sometimes we even choose to not allow the spirit to teach us all things. Salvation of course, is not effected, unless we undo the gospel, and then we can be cut off.

Make your calling and election sure...is His command.

If you do this, you can never fall.


peaceandlove,

janet

laundrygirl
Jul 21st 2008, 11:26 PM
I think true Christians have all things in common, just as the apostles did, and they don't have to wait until eternity to experience this unity, just as the first Christians experienced it. The Spirit of God is not one of division, but of unity. If the Holy Spirit guided us all, we would have all things in common, not just most things or a few things, but ALL things.