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bondservant4him
Jul 16th 2008, 08:27 PM
i watched Bill wiese sermon on this and was wondering wat you all think about it? do you think it is true?

Partaker of Christ
Jul 16th 2008, 10:06 PM
i watched Bill wiese sermon on this and was wondering wat you all think about it? do you think it is true?

Hi bondservant4him!

I have not watched it, but I have read some of the manuscript.

I am very far from convinced that it is true.

He says that God took away from him, his memory that he was a Christian.

Does God use these methods of deception?
Can God lie?

He speaks of having his head crushed, skin torn, limbs pulled.
Does a mans 'body' go into hell?

Do fallen angels (who are spirit) have the [joy] of being able to rule, and torment the souls of man in hell?
Who was ruling and tormenting them?

markedward
Jul 16th 2008, 10:25 PM
I also watched the video sermon, and it seems that Wiese is confused (at best) at what Scripture actually says about hell.

In the video he explicitly says he was sent to "hell."
At one point he explicitly says the Greek word for hell is "hades."
At various points he explicitly quotes Scripture referring to hades to describe hell.
At various other points he explicitly quotes Scripture referring to the lake of fire to describe hell.

Revelation 20:11-15 says hades is thrown into the lake of fire.

How can Wiese describe hell by using both Scripture that refers to hades and Scripture that refers to the lake of fire if hades and the lake of fire aren't the same thing? I'll express this in an equation format:

Wiese1: Hell equal to hades
Wiese2: Hell equal to the lake of fire
Wiese3: Hades equal to the lake of fire

Bible: Hades not equal to the lake of fire

Case in point, Wiese is teaching that hades and the lake of fire are both hell, which is impossible because hades and the lake of fire are not the same thing. What Wiese teaches is something found in popular culture, not in the Bible.

SpokenFor
Jul 16th 2008, 10:36 PM
He is partnered with Mary K Baxter, who claims to have been to both Heaven and Hell during a 40 day period.

Both are promoted by Patricia King and Sid Roth, who are rather questionable.

Hell is real and needs to be preached, but I'm not sure about the authenticity of this particular account. I will say, however, that I have not personally read the book but have read excerpts.

Here's a link to the youtube video Bill and Mary put together: http://youtube.com/watch?v=StTRdtvfMcQ

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 16th 2008, 10:54 PM
I also watched the video sermon, and it seems that Wiese is confused (at best) at what Scripture actually says about hell.

In the video he explicitly says he was sent to "hell."
At one point he explicitly says the Greek word for hell is "hades."
At various points he explicitly quotes Scripture referring to hades to describe hell.
At various other points he explicitly quotes Scripture referring to the lake of fire to describe hell.

Revelation 20:11-15 says hades is thrown into the lake of fire.

How can Wiese describe hell by using both Scripture that refers to hades and Scripture that refers to the lake of fire if hades and the lake of fire aren't the same thing? I'll express this in an equation format:

Wiese1: Hell equal to hades
Wiese2: Hell equal to the lake of fire
Wiese3: Hades equal to the lake of fire

Bible: Hades not equal to the lake of fire

Case in point, Wiese is teaching that hades and the lake of fire are both hell, which is impossible because hades and the lake of fire are not the same thing. What Wiese teaches is something found in popular culture, not in the Bible.
-----------------------------------------------------------

I agree with your post.....

sushi_pompom
Jul 16th 2008, 11:55 PM
Okay, I know this is a biblical things as why I don't really believe him...what doesn't make sense to me is that his wife said he was in a horrific panic when she found him in the living room. I had thought this was due to him just coming back from hell but then as I watched on I learned he went to heaven and met Jesus...wouldn't that kinda comfort him in away? Just a thought...

ProjectPeter
Jul 17th 2008, 12:04 AM
Every time I see that title... I think of my last visit to the Mall with Kathy and Jennifer and we stopped at Bath and Body Works! :lol:

VerticalReality
Jul 17th 2008, 02:26 AM
Every time I see that title... I think of my last visit to the Mall with Kathy and Jennifer and we stopped at Bath and Body Works! :lol:

Ugh . . . just further proof that men and women are totally different. That place brings about intense feelings of despair and anguish. It's the wife persecuting me . . . I'm sure of it!

ProjectPeter
Jul 17th 2008, 02:31 AM
23 minutes in hell... seems like a lifetime! :D

moonglow
Jul 17th 2008, 03:05 AM
i watched Bill wiese sermon on this and was wondering wat you all think about it? do you think it is true?

I looked it up on youtube and watched just the first video on it...there are so many major problems with this...

First demons are spirits. Second I truly do not believe God lets demon's physically torture people forever...there is no point in God doing that. It makes the gospel out to be no more then 'love me or else..' and I believe God is better then that. There is a torment for sure! But torture is never used in the bible. The whole bible is about our spirits...we are given spiritual everlasting life! Everything is focused on the spiritual. So why would God peddle backwards to the physical? Being without Him will be a truly terrible terrible torment! No physical torture needed...its primitive and barbaric and simply not needed.

Also in just watching that one video...three people were named...well know people who have somehow seen hell or demon's ...which begs the question..if all these people are saved? Why are they seeing hell in the first place? The first video cuts out the beginning of what this man's wife was saying so we don't know what happened. Did this man die and go to hell and see all of this or what? If so...WHY was he sent to hell if he is suppose to be a saved Christian? I don't know ...maybe that is answered in the other video's but honestly I don't want to spend that much time watching video after video about something that isn't biblically backed up to start with.

I spotted a related video about a man who actually did die! And has the scars to prove it. He saw both Heaven and hell and his description actually line up with the bible. Its very obvious this is all on a spiritual level too from what he describes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGpxfoF3SYg&feature=related
This man died...and returned..Heaven and Hell are real

God bless

bondservant4him
Jul 17th 2008, 03:06 AM
well i was just wondering, im kinda new to christianity and have many questions, and i thought that wow this guy is proof that God and hell are real. one thing wat is diff between hades and hell?

moonglow
Jul 17th 2008, 03:07 AM
Every time I see that title... I think of my last visit to the Mall with Kathy and Jennifer and we stopped at Bath and Body Works! :lol:

You poor thing...:lol::lol:

I think Nate could relate to you when I took him clothes shopping the other day...:lol: or maybe its me that can relate to you...:rolleyes: It sure wasn't a walk in the park for either of us! :cool:

moonglow
Jul 17th 2008, 03:12 AM
well i was just wondering, im kinda new to christianity and have many questions, and i thought that wow this guy is proof that God and hell are real. one thing wat is diff between hades and hell?

I hope you read my other post directed towards you on this!

You picked a great board to come too with your questions..:) yes Heaven and Hell are very real...though maybe not like how this man imaged it...:rolleyes: The link I gave you I think actually fits the bible.

Anyway your question on the differences between hell and hades...here is a great link on that: One Second After Death (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2244)

Welcome to the board and don't mind our joking around on here...sometimes it happens...:dunno: :lol:

God bless

bondservant4him
Jul 17th 2008, 05:28 AM
hey seriously thank you all, ill be bak soon with more questions lol

MattZab
Jul 19th 2008, 09:30 PM
You guys should really read the book. The book is much better than the video. The book references scripture all throughout.


I also watched the video sermon, and it seems that Wiese is confused (at best) at what Scripture actually says about hell.
How can Wiese describe hell by using both Scripture that refers to hades and Scripture that refers to the lake of fire if hades and the lake of fire aren't the same thing? I'll express this in an equation format:
Wiese1: Hell equal to hades
Wiese2: Hell equal to the lake of fire
Wiese3: Hades equal to the lake of fire
Bible: Hades not equal to the lake of fire
Case in point, Wiese is teaching that hades and the lake of fire are both hell, which is impossible because hades and the lake of fire are not the same thing. What Wiese teaches is something found in popular culture, not in the Bible.

Ever heard of the trinity?
Maybe you have some kind of enlightenment that I lack, and if so please share. But here is a general idea of how I understand it, in equation form.

Trinity: God=Jesus=Holy Spirit

All the same, but all different.
The Bible says that Jesus died on the cross. Using your logic, that would be impossible because God can't die(remember, Jesus=God).




I looked it up on youtube and watched just the first video on it...there are so many major problems with this...

First demons are spirits. Second I truly do not believe God lets demon's physically torture people forever...there is no point in God doing that. It makes the gospel out to be no more then 'love me or else..' and I believe God is better then that. There is a torment for sure! But torture is never used in the bible. The whole bible is about our spirits...we are given spiritual everlasting life! Everything is focused on the spiritual. So why would God peddle backwards to the physical? Being without Him will be a truly terrible terrible torment! No physical torture needed...its primitive and barbaric and simply not needed.

Also in just watching that one video...three people were named...well know people who have somehow seen hell or demon's ...which begs the question..if all these people are saved? Why are they seeing hell in the first place? The first video cuts out the beginning of what this man's wife was saying so we don't know what happened. Did this man die and go to hell and see all of this or what? If so...WHY was he sent to hell if he is suppose to be a saved Christian? I don't know ...maybe that is answered in the other video's but honestly I don't want to spend that much time watching video after video about something that isn't biblically backed up to start with.

I spotted a related video about a man who actually did die! And has the scars to prove it. He saw both Heaven and hell and his description actually line up with the bible. Its very obvious this is all on a spiritual level too from what he describes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGpxfoF3SYg&feature=related
This man died...and returned..Heaven and Hell are real

God bless

Dude...
Ok, watch the full video here: http://biblespark.net/video/23minutesinhell/

Again, read the book. He can't reference as much in a speech as he can in a book.

Secondly, if God doesn't send people to be tormented forever, then what's the point in becoming a Christian? If everyone ends up in heaven either way, why shouldn't I indulge in all the "great" sinful things of this world?
Also, why does it say they will be tormented for ever, in Revelations Chapter 20?

apothanein kerdos
Jul 19th 2008, 09:36 PM
You guys should really read the book. The book is much better than the video. The book references scripture all throughout.



Ever heard of the trinity?
Maybe you have some kind of enlightenment that I lack, and if so please share. But here is a general idea of how I understand it, in equation form.

Trinity: God=Jesus=Holy Spirit

All the same, but all different.
The Bible says that Jesus died on the cross. Using your logic, that would be impossible because God can't die(remember, Jesus=God).

The Trinity is unique and immutable - there is nothing like it in all of creation. Hell is a creation of God's and so is the lake of fire. Both are different and nothing like the Trinity.

moonglow
Jul 19th 2008, 09:44 PM
You guys should really read the book. The book is much better than the video. The book references scripture all throughout.



Ever heard of the trinity?
Maybe you have some kind of enlightenment that I lack, and if so please share. But here is a general idea of how I understand it, in equation form.

Trinity: God=Jesus=Holy Spirit

All the same, but all different.
The Bible says that Jesus died on the cross. Using your logic, that would be impossible because God can't die(remember, Jesus=God).





Dude...
Ok, watch the full video here: http://biblespark.net/video/23minutesinhell/

Again, read the book. He can't reference as much in a speech as he can in a book.

Secondly, if God doesn't send people to be tormented forever, then what's the point in becoming a Christian? If everyone ends up in heaven either way, why shouldn't I indulge in all the "great" sinful things of this world?
Also, why does it say they will be tormented for ever, in Revelations Chapter 20?

You are honestly going to compare the Holy Trinity to this? The Trinity is Unique and nothing compares to it...especially not hell/hades/lake of fire. They cannot be the same thing because hades is cast into the Lake of fire and destroyed.

Revelation 20

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

VerticalReality
Jul 19th 2008, 09:57 PM
Secondly, if God doesn't send people to be tormented forever, then what's the point in becoming a Christian? If everyone ends up in heaven either way, why shouldn't I indulge in all the "great" sinful things of this world?


Do you only try to stay away from fleshly stuff because you just don't want to go to hell? Is that all?

moonglow
Jul 19th 2008, 11:54 PM
sorry I missed this part of your post directed towards me...


Dude...
Ok, watch the full video here: http://biblespark.net/video/23minutesinhell/

Again, read the book. He can't reference as much in a speech as he can in a book.

Secondly, if God doesn't send people to be tormented forever, then what's the point in becoming a Christian? If everyone ends up in heaven either way, why shouldn't I indulge in all the "great" sinful things of this world?
Also, why does it say they will be tormented for ever, in Revelations Chapter 20?

Being in torment is not the same thing as being tortured. Telling people, in my opinion...if you don't believe God will torture you forever is no different then someone putting a gun to your head and saying believe in me...or else I'll pulling this trigger. God doesn't NEED to threaten people with torture. Being away from his light and love forever, is going to be a terrible torment all by itself. Its like people saying...oh I don't believe there is air...until that air is removed from them. It'll take one second of trying to breath for them to suddenly believe there is air. In 30 seconds they are going to be very comfortable...and having second thoughts about rejecting that air they denied was there in the first place. At 60 seconds they are fully realizing how much the air was apart of their life for all those years that they never noticed...and how very important it is! By one minute, 30 seconds into no longer having air...they are desperate for that air...never wanted anything SO badly in their whole life in fact! Air becomes the more important thing to them in a very short period of time. They are in torment without the air...the air they rejected and denied...blew off as nothing...

This is just a little idea of what it will be like without God. Only the affects will be spiritual, not physical. Why should God reduce Himself to the level of actually torturing people? The bible never uses the word torture.


then what's the point in becoming a Christian?

That's kind of sad I think you would have to ask this.


If everyone ends up in heaven either way, why shouldn't I indulge in all the "great" sinful things of this world?
Also, why does it say they will be tormented for ever, in Revelations Chapter 20?

First I never said no one was sent to hell...nor did I or anyone else say everyone went to Heaven either.

Again..torment is not the same as physical torture. We are in torment when a loved one dies. People are in torment when their homes burn down or they lose their job...or their child goes missing. We are in torment over broken marriages...broken relationships...yet none of these are physical torments. Its torments of the mind! Of the emotions...of the spirit...

I honestly don't know how you got all of this from my post to start with...I never denied their was a hell...never said everyone would be saved. The bible is clear...not everyone will be. And again in Revelation 20...torment is not the same at torture. There is NO verse that says either God or demons will torture anyone. I really don't know where people get that idea from. They think demons are poking people with pitchforks and stuff...yet nothing like that is in the bible...

show me in the bible where demons have physical bodies...if they did why would they always be trying to posses the body of a human being?

God bless

mikebr
Jul 20th 2008, 12:37 AM
to those of you who subscribe to a place like the one he describes:

Would you say that the place is evil?
How did such a place come into existence?
When was that place created?

The Parson
Jul 20th 2008, 12:48 AM
well i was just wondering, im kinda new to christianity and have many questions, and i thought that wow this guy is proof that God and hell are real. one thing wat is diff between hades and hell?

Hell: the place prepaired for the devil and his angels. A place of unquenchible fire and torment. Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Hades: From Greek mythology. Hades was a place where the ancient Greeks believed all would spend eternity in bliss or torment and also be exiled to oblivian. The place of the Elasion fields and home of the god Hades. Also contained the river styx that had to be crossed to enter into the afterlife.

Lake of fire: The final place where God sends those who refused His gift of eternal life. Also the place where death & hell are cast along with the false prophet, the beast, and the devil. Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

That help???

bondservant4him
Jul 20th 2008, 10:48 PM
yes it did but i thought hades was a place where souls go before judgment, also what is diff between devil and beast? i am extremely interested in this now because i did not know that folk who go to hell still have a second chance during the final judgment, gives me hope for my passed loved ones.

ProjectPeter
Jul 20th 2008, 11:05 PM
yes it did but i thought hades was a place where souls go before judgment, also what is diff between devil and beast? i am extremely interested in this now because i did not know that folk who go to hell still have a second chance during the final judgment, gives me hope for my passed loved ones.
There is no second chance.

The Parson
Jul 21st 2008, 12:29 AM
yes it did but i thought hades was a place where souls go before judgment, also what is diff between devil and beast? i am extremely interested in this now because i did not know that folk who go to hell still have a second chance during the final judgment, gives me hope for my passed loved ones.Where on earth did you see that folks get a second chance? ProPet is quite correct, there is no second chance.

moonglow
Jul 21st 2008, 12:53 AM
Yea I would like to know that too...even that link I gave you One Second After Death doesn't suggest anyone gets a second chance after death. It only explains the confusion over the words hell and hades and others used like those.

Maybe you heard this from somewhere else?


God bless

bondservant4him
Jul 21st 2008, 02:00 AM
http://www.parentalguide.com/Documents/Doctrines/Hell_and_the_lake_of_fire.htm (http://www.matthewmcgee.org/helwords.html)


"
9-HELL, A WAITING PLACE FOR THE FINAL JUDGMENT http://www.parentalguide.com/top.jpg (http://www.parentalguide.com/Documents/Doctrines/Hell_and_the_lake_of_fire.htm#DOCTRINES)
As it has been noted, when a person dies without Christ, they go to a place called hell. There they stay, being tormented in the flame until the time of the great white throne judgment, which is also called "the judgment of the damned." Thus, we see that those in hell will not be there forever, but only until they are delivered up to the final judgment and are judged according to their works."
(http://www.matthewmcgee.org/helwords.html)

moonglow
Jul 21st 2008, 02:44 AM
http://www.parentalguide.com/Documents/Doctrines/Hell_and_the_lake_of_fire.htm (http://www.matthewmcgee.org/helwords.html)


"
9-HELL, A WAITING PLACE FOR THE FINAL JUDGMENT http://www.parentalguide.com/top.jpg (http://www.parentalguide.com/Documents/Doctrines/Hell_and_the_lake_of_fire.htm#DOCTRINES)
As it has been noted, when a person dies without Christ, they go to a place called hell. There they stay, being tormented in the flame until the time of the great white throne judgment, which is also called "the judgment of the damned." Thus, we see that those in hell will not be there forever, but only until they are delivered up to the final judgment and are judged according to their works."
(http://www.matthewmcgee.org/helwords.html)

I am having problems getting the link to load...

I think you are either assuming too much here or reading something there that isn't there. Why would God send a person to hell then change His mind later? There is nothing that states in the bible at judgment they have a second chance.

Lets look at the passage on this:

Revelation 20
The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament (http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020)
Verse 15
And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

And if any was not found written in the book of life ...
The mention of the righteous in this shows that both the good and the evil participate in the resurrection of the final day, those whose names were written there, and those whose names were not written there. Otherwise, there could have been no reason for using "if" in this verse. Here it is evident that the New Testament contains no promise of any second chance after death.

In this series of commentaries, the book of life has often been mentioned; and here the absolute necessity of every man's being inscribed in it in order to be saved is dogmatically stated. Therefore, out of regard to all men, we shall declare how one may so be written.

In Matt. 10:32, Jesus promised that all who confess him will themselves be confessed by Jesus in heaven "before God and the angels." In Matt. 16:16, is the record of the first man ever to confess Christ; and significantly, Jesus then and there upon that occasion, confessed that man, Peter, using exactly the same formula Peter had used in his confession of Christ. From this we have concluded that the writing of one's name in the book of life occurs upon the occasion of his confessing Christ and being baptized into him. Certainly, Christians have their names written there during their sojourn as Christians upon the earth (Philippians 4:3); and it is most logical to believe that it is written at the very beginning of that Christian life. Once inscribed in the book of life, one's name will remain there eternally, except in the case of his apostasy, in which event it will be "blotted out" (Revelation 3:5).

God bless

bondservant4him
Jul 21st 2008, 03:27 AM
thanks for clearing that up, i guess i just figured other wise sorry

moonglow
Jul 21st 2008, 03:33 AM
thanks for clearing that up, i guess i just figured other wise sorry

you are welcome. Its alot to learn for sure!

God bless

Kate
Jul 21st 2008, 03:37 AM
I'm not convinced it wasn't real. I have no idea if it was real or not, but I do know hell is a terrible place.

immortality
Jul 21st 2008, 03:54 AM
I'm not convinced it wasn't real. I have no idea if it was real or not, but I do know hell is a terrible place.

indeed. i've watched the video quite some time ago, and i must say the holy spirit inside of me did some convicting. his testimony seemed all too genuine and biblical for me to simply refute.

at some points i had the tendency to question the authenticity, but then it became clear to me that, if i am such an unholy, wretched, sinful, vile creature that scripture says i am, then these thoughts are most likely arising from denial.

moonglow
Jul 21st 2008, 04:06 PM
indeed. i've watched the video quite some time ago, and i must say the holy spirit inside of me did some convicting. his testimony seemed all too genuine and biblical for me to simply refute.

at some points i had the tendency to question the authenticity, but then it became clear to me that, if i am such an unholy, wretched, sinful, vile creature that scripture says i am, then these thoughts are most likely arising from denial.

Are you still this unholy, wretched, sinful, vile creature once you are saved though? Wouldn't that be rather insulting to the work the Holy Spirit does when He saves us?

Jesus says once we are believers we are His brothers and sisters! I don't think Jesus would want some adopted siblings that were like what you described.

Matthew 12:50
For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.Ē

Romans 5:18-20
18 Therefore, as through one manís offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Manís righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one manís disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Manís obedience many will be made righteous.

We are made righteous by the work of Jesus Christ and adopted by God as His children..

Romans 8:15
So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received Godís Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, ďAbba, Father.Ē

My whole point is this...if you hear a sermon on anything and it doesn't sit right with you...it may not be you trying to deny something true, as you suggest, but decrement that the Holy Spirit gives all of us to know what is true and what isn't. From is from God and what isn't. And if its not in the bible...then its not true! Demons are never described as having physical bodies in the bible...ever. If hell was in the center of this earth...I think the bible would tell us so. If demons were to physically torture people in hell...I think the bible would mention it.

Yes hell is real...but not like what was described in this video...we need to go by what the bible says on this.

God bless

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 21st 2008, 08:31 PM
I watched video and I"ve read the book.. In the movie it shows demonic creatures and even the devil with horns....ugly and hideous...

My question to you .. what does Satan and his comrades really look like? are they these hideous creatures with horns and forked tails running around with pitchforks?

The answer is found in the Word of God.. unfortunately many refute and deny those scriptures only to follow religion and Hollywoods portrayal of what the powers of darkness actually look like..

I know what they look like .. who they possess.. what they are capabable of... I've been taught that in the trenches of spiritual warfare.. its as real as the five fingers on your hand...

Satan loves to decieve people into believing some portrayal of him as something other than what the 'truth' is about him and those who followed him..

many times and its often the norm for him to raise up people who come against those who are in the process of exposing him for who he is... I've seen this too many times and one does not have to go far to see that in its full form and fruit...

dave4418
Jul 22nd 2008, 03:04 AM
Does anyone here believe the Bill Wiese account? I for one believe him.

Also, there are many many other hell accounts. I've read many of them. I believe most of them to be true.

Are people actually gonna say that all or most of them are also false?

I have a real hard time with people saying their doing it for money or whatever. Bill Wiese for one would make way more money selling his real estate than by talking about hell.

People need to realize that yes, Satan and the devils will torment, but that's only temporarily until all of hell itself gets thrown into the lake of fire, where all of those demons will be tormented like it says in Revelelation.

Satan does not and cannot torment people forever.

Athanasius
Jul 22nd 2008, 03:06 AM
I'm fairly certain Satan and his gang of demons are just as tortured as those who reject God.

dave4418
Jul 22nd 2008, 03:25 AM
Yes, the Bible says the lake of fire was made for Satan and his angels.

mikebr
Jul 22nd 2008, 03:29 AM
Does anyone here believe the Bill Wiese account? I for one believe him.

Also, there are many many other hell accounts. I've read many of them. I believe most of them to be true.

Are people actually gonna say that all or most of them are also false?

I have a real hard time with people saying their doing it for money or whatever. Bill Wiese for one would make way more money selling his real estate than by talking about hell.

People need to realize that yes, Satan and the devils will torment, but that's only temporarily until all of hell itself gets thrown into the lake of fire, where all of those demons will be tormented like it says in Revelelation.

Satan does not and cannot torment people forever.
What biblical proof do you have that Satan and the devils will torment?

RabbiKnife
Jul 22nd 2008, 02:47 PM
Video is complete skubalon.

moonglow
Jul 22nd 2008, 05:31 PM
I watched video and I"ve read the book.. In the movie it shows demonic creatures and even the devil with horns....ugly and hideous...

My question to you .. what does Satan and his comrades really look like? are they these hideous creatures with horns and forked tails running around with pitchforks?

The answer is found in the Word of God.. unfortunately many refute and deny those scriptures only to follow religion and Hollywoods portrayal of what the powers of darkness actually look like..

I know what they look like .. who they possess.. what they are capabable of... I've been taught that in the trenches of spiritual warfare.. its as real as the five fingers on your hand...

Satan loves to decieve people into believing some portrayal of him as something other than what the 'truth' is about him and those who followed him..

many times and its often the norm for him to raise up people who come against those who are in the process of exposing him for who he is... I've seen this too many times and one does not have to go far to see that in its full form and fruit...

Exactly...the bible says satan can appear to be an angel of light! Not some horrible looking creature all red with a long tail and a pitch fork in his hand..

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.




dave4418 Does anyone here believe the Bill Wiese account? I for one believe him.

Also, there are many many other hell accounts. I've read many of them. I believe most of them to be true.

Are people actually gonna say that all or most of them are also false?

I have a real hard time with people saying their doing it for money or whatever. Bill Wiese for one would make way more money selling his real estate than by talking about hell.

People need to realize that yes, Satan and the devils will torment, but that's only temporarily until all of hell itself gets thrown into the lake of fire, where all of those demons will be tormented like it says in Revelelation.

Satan does not and cannot torment people forever.

So if ALOT of people say something that makes it true..even if the bible says something else????

They cannot back up what they say with scriptures...I don't care if every single self professing Christian says the same as they do...that doesn't make it the truth. Always check the Word of God for the truth! Always.

If you don't hang onto the Rock of God you can easily be lead away by other, much more dangerous, false teachings.

God bless

mikebr
Jul 22nd 2008, 07:58 PM
Exactly...the bible says satan can appear to be an angel of light! Not some horrible looking creature all red with a long tail and a pitch fork in his hand..

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.




So if ALOT of people say something that makes it true..even if the bible says something else????

They cannot back up what they say with scriptures...I don't care if every single self professing Christian says the same as they do...that doesn't make it the truth. Always check the Word of God for the truth! Always.

If you don't hang onto the Rock of God you can easily be lead away by other, much more dangerous, false teachings.

God bless


Great Post Moonglow. I've been thinking this very thing. Ezekiel 28 says as much as well.

MattZab
Jul 23rd 2008, 05:52 AM
Are you still this unholy, wretched, sinful, vile creature once you are saved though? Wouldn't that be rather insulting to the work the Holy Spirit does when He saves us?
Yeah, he is. He isn't sinless, is he? Read the book of Psalms dude.




Jesus says once we are believers we are His brothers and sisters! I don't think Jesus would want some adopted siblings that were like what you described.
You don't think Jesus would what? Who are you to know what Jesus would or wouldn't do? Trying to tell someone what Jesus would or wouldn't do is too open ended.
I do know what Jesus did. He reached out and adopted people who are exactly what he described.

God uses sinners, not the sinless, to do his work.
Check this out:

Noah was a drunk, Jacob was a liar, Samson had long hair and was a womanizer, David had an affair and was a murderer, Elijah was suicidal, Isaiah preached naked, Jonah ran from God. I'm sure there are PLENTY more.


Just my thoughts.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 11:35 AM
God uses sinners, not the sinless, to do his work.
Check this out:

Noah was a drunk, Jacob was a liar, Samson had long hair and was a womanizer, David had an affair and was a murderer, Elijah was suicidal, Isaiah preached naked, Jonah ran from God. I'm sure there are PLENTY more.


Just my thoughts.
So what is your point... go and be likewise while doing the Lord's work? Not to mention you took a whole lot of liberty with some of your examples. :rolleyes:

MattZab
Jul 24th 2008, 04:58 AM
I do know what Jesus did. He reached out and adopted people who are exactly what he described.

God uses sinners, not the sinless, to do his work.
That is my point.

moonglow said that he doesn't think Jesus would want to "adopt" someone who is so filthy with sin to be his "sibling" when thats just exactly what he did.

Saved7
Jul 24th 2008, 05:12 AM
well i was just wondering, im kinda new to christianity and have many questions, and i thought that wow this guy is proof that God and hell are real. one thing wat is diff between hades and hell?


Ok...first, I've been with Jesus literally, and trust me, that still is not proof to those who don't want to believe. I've testified and shared my testimony on many many occassions, and found that it's only helpful occassionally. Basically, don't ever try to use other people's experiences as proof if you are trying to lead someone to Christ, because to the unbeliever, it's simply unbelievable.:(
Now if hearing this stuff lifts you up and encourages you and other christians, then that's wonderful; but please don't try to hang your hat on it when testifying to the unbeliever.:saint:

bondservant4him
Jul 24th 2008, 03:17 PM
Ok...first, I've been with Jesus literally, and trust me, that still is not proof to those who don't want to believe. I've testified and shared my testimony on many many occassions, and found that it's only helpful occassionally. Basically, don't ever try to use other people's experiences as proof if you are trying to lead someone to Christ, because to the unbeliever, it's simply unbelievable.:(
Now if hearing this stuff lifts you up and encourages you and other christians, then that's wonderful; but please don't try to hang your hat on it when testifying to the unbeliever.:saint:


you were with jesus? can u tell me the story pleaseeeee:kiss:

moonglow
Jul 26th 2008, 04:10 PM
[QUOTE]Originally Posted by moonglow
Are you still this unholy, wretched, sinful, vile creature once you are saved though? Wouldn't that be rather insulting to the work the Holy Spirit does when He saves us?

Yeah, he is. He isn't sinless, is he? Read the book of Psalms dude.

I'm a dudett...;) The bible tells us we are made RIGHTEOUS with God.

Romans 5:19
Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.

Galatians 3:11
So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”

Once we are born again, filled with the Holy Spirit we become a new creation.

2 Corinthians 5:16-18

16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

how can we possibly say once we are filled with the Holy Spirit of God we are still a unholy, wretched, sinful, vile creature???? This is an insult to the work the Holy Spirit does in us.



Quote:
Originally Posted by moonglow
Jesus says once we are believers we are His brothers and sisters! I don't think Jesus would want some adopted siblings that were like what you described.

MattZab: You don't think Jesus would what? Who are you to know what Jesus would or wouldn't do?

Who am I too say this? I am one of His adopted children...I am telling you what the bible says on this...its not something I made up out of the blue.


MattZab: Trying to tell someone what Jesus would or wouldn't do is too open ended.
I do know what Jesus did. He reached out and adopted people who are exactly what he described.

Yes He reached out to sinners and CHANGED them. How can an unholy person love God? This person was saying they were unholy...those that live in darkness reject the light. Those brought out of the darkness come into the light and become holy ...God's adopted children through Christ..so they are no longer unholy are they?


MattZab :God uses sinners, not the sinless, to do his work.
Check this out:

Noah was a drunk, Jacob was a liar, Samson had long hair and was a womanizer, David had an affair and was a murderer, Elijah was suicidal, Isaiah preached naked, Jonah ran from God. I'm sure there are PLENTY more.


Just my thoughts.

Yes I have read that list before...no one said we were perfect all the time...I was just saying this description of a saved born again Christian really degrades the work the Holy Spirit does in us. I see Christians beat up on themselves like this all the time...it fits BEFORE we were saved...but not after...lets give some credit to God's good work IN us! That's all I am saying...

there is a difference between being humble and degrading His work...we need to learn the difference. A humble person doesn't say such things about themselves.

God bless