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flooda34
Jul 16th 2008, 10:19 PM
In Exodus 32:9-14 Moses pleads with God not to destroy the Isrealites
and God relents and decides not to.

Then in 1 Samuel 15:29 the bible says that God is not a man that he should change his mind.

Can someone explain to me how these verses don't contradict?

timmyb
Jul 16th 2008, 10:55 PM
It's a picture of intercession... God was testing Moses to see if his heart was with Israel as much as his was...

crawfish
Jul 16th 2008, 11:17 PM
It's a picture of intercession... God was testing Moses to see if his heart was with Israel as much as his was...

True, but the biblical language doesn't always make that clear.

God set up Moses as an intercessory between Him and the Israelites. If you notice, they had to plead to God through Moses; and God worked His miracles through Moses as well. This fits with the motif; Moses must act on Israel's behalf to save them. The "relenting" was not for Moses sake, but for the sake of the Israelites, who did not yet have the covenant to tie them into a nation.

timmyb
Jul 16th 2008, 11:43 PM
that too... but as an intercessor I always looked at it like that... it was similar to the test that God gave Abraham when he told him to sacrifice Issac... God supposedly changed his mind... but the reality is that it was a test of Abraham's heart.... God did the same to Moses to see if Moses' heart was the same as Gods as far as his love for the Israelites... heck it was God who put the love for the Israelites in Moses... but God wanted to test the state of Moses heart

ProjectPeter
Jul 17th 2008, 12:08 AM
Scripture tells us that God tested Abraham one more time... doesn't say that about Moses and the intercession from Israel.

In the Samuel passage.... Samuel was just simply making it very clear to Saul... you are done. The kingdom will be taken from you. That was final. God wouldn't change His mind.

flooda34
Jul 17th 2008, 12:42 AM
Scripture tells us that God tested Abraham one more time... doesn't say that about Moses and the intercession from Israel.

In the Samuel passage.... Samuel was just simply making it very clear to Saul... you are done. The kingdom will be taken from you. That was final. God wouldn't change His mind.So would you say that the two passages are unrelated in terms of God changing his mind?
What if Samuel would have pleaded on behalf of Saul as Moses did for the Isrealites?

ProjectPeter
Jul 17th 2008, 01:03 AM
So would you say that the two passages are unrelated in terms of God changing his mind?
What if Samuel would have pleaded on behalf of Saul as Moses did for the Isrealites?
Yes, they are.

Samuel did greive it. God told him to suck it up and get busy doing what he needed to do. ;)

1 Samuel 15:35 *And Samuel did not see Saul again until the day of his death; for Samuel grieved over Saul. And the LORD regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel.

1 Samuel 16:1 *Now the LORD said to Samuel, "How long will you grieve over Saul, since I have rejected him from being king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil, and go; I will send you to Jesse the Bethlehemite, for I have selected a king for Myself among his sons."

puregospeltruth
Jul 18th 2008, 04:47 AM
Context is always the major key to rightly dividing the word of truth. We will run into great diffuculty if we try to lift up isolated texts from two different places and seek to set them at odds with each other. But I believe the answer to your question is quite simple:

In Exodus God had not DECIDED to destroy the Israelites, He simply DESIRED to in the heat of the moment. It is just giving us a picture of the fury of His anger and wrath venting out at the moment, DESIRING to wipe them out. And Moses stepped in and interceded and prevented it, and God's wrath cooled down and He decided not to kill them all.

But in 1 Samuel, Saul had sinned repeatedly and God had made up His mind to reject him from being king. Once the decree was made, it couldn't be changed, for God had clearly spoked to Samuel and told him Saul was cut off. To take it back would be to lie, and God cannot lie. He won't change His mind once it is made up, once the decree is made.

In Christ -Josef
www.puregospeltruth.com (http://www.puregospeltruth.com)

SweetSomber
Jul 18th 2008, 05:01 AM
It does SEEM like a contradiction, but you gotta think for a moment.

God is "easy to be entreated," (See James 3:17) That is part of His character. He has determined ahead of time that He is easy to be entreated - He does not change His mind about that. He has been, is, and always will be easy to be entreated. God bartered with Abraham about Sodom and Gomorrah; He also allowed other Old Testament people to dissuade Him from various punishment.

Jonah knew this, but he didn't like it. When God decided to spare the Ninevites, who God had previously theatened to destroy, he got mad. He was like "I told you so! I KNEW this would happen!"

He said, and I quote
"Ah, LORD, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm. Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live!”"

How did Jonah foresee that God would "relent from doing harm"? Because God is always like that - He doesn't change His mind, His character, like we do. :)

(Of course, when God gives His word, He keeps it. That's also part of His character. You can entreat the Lord about his threats, but when He has put down a decree or command, it WILL come to pass.)

KingFisher
Jul 18th 2008, 04:59 PM
Hi flooda34,

Looking at the passage from a human "finite" perspective I can understand
what your expressing.

From our "finite" perspective, why do we usually change our mind?
a. It could be because we were wrong.
b. It could be because we were unsure and didn't have all the info.
c. It could be because were just a fickle sort.
d…etc.

So…why did God want to destroy Israel?

Didn't they just see some pretty incredible things.
I mean they saw the plagues in Egypt, the Red Sea parted,
ate bread from Heaven, saw water come from a rock…etc.
and yet here they are making an idol unto themselves.

So we come to this…

a. Was God wrong to be angry with Israel?
b. Did Moses tell God something He didn't already know?
c. Is God fickle?

God is both perfect in mercy and justice right?

It would have been perfect justice to destroy Israel and start over.
but…
It would have been perfect mercy to show His love and to spare them
this wrath.

Think about it like this...
I just like Israel sinned against God.
I like Israel was to receive the penalty of God's wrath.
I like Israel was interceded for.
I like Israel received mercy instead of destruction.

God choose to spare me…to show me mercy.

It wasn't a contradiction...just foreshadowing.

Hope this helps,
KingFisher

timmyb
Jul 18th 2008, 05:19 PM
There is a principle that the Lord does relent and he does change his mind when it comes to doing harm.... he is merciful... and he was showing Moses the principle in this verse... God was tellng Moses that he can be moved by the prayers of his people when they humble themselves and ask for mercy

Joe 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
Joe 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
Joe 2:14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?

BroRog
Jul 18th 2008, 07:41 PM
It's a picture of intercession... God was testing Moses to see if his heart was with Israel as much as his was...

I agree with your interpretation timmyb. I don't think God intended to carry out his proposal. Rather, what we witness is a conversation between a teacher (God) and a student (Moses) in which the teacher opens the conversation with a provocative question in order to open a dialog with Moses so that he might learn something about himself, and his relationship to the nation and to God.

timmyb
Jul 18th 2008, 08:14 PM
I agree with your interpretation timmyb. I don't think God intended to carry out his proposal. Rather, what we witness is a conversation between a teacher (God) and a student (Moses) in which the teacher opens the conversation with a provocative question in order to open a dialog with Moses so that he might learn something about himself, and his relationship to the nation and to God.

I like it when people pose questions... questions I can't answer drive me... it's the reason I'm saved because i asked God the right questions... or I finally listened to him long enough to hear him ask me the right questions...

Teke
Jul 19th 2008, 10:13 PM
In Exodus 32:9-14 Moses pleads with God not to destroy the Isrealites
and God relents and decides not to.

Then in 1 Samuel 15:29 the bible says that God is not a man that he should change his mind.

Can someone explain to me how these verses don't contradict?

Then the LORD said, 'I do forgive, just as you have asked. Numbers 14:20

Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.