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manichunter
Jul 17th 2008, 03:46 PM
Who were the true Apostles that the foundation was built upon? Was the original inner circle of disciples of Jesus who later became His initial apostles? Or was it the early church fathers like Justin and Augustine? If they were the original twelve, why did they adhere to and observe some of the things that were written in the Torah?

According to most of the teachings today, the original twelve were not the right Apostles for the laying of the foundation regarding the spiritual kingdom of God because they live contrary to the message of Jesus. They continued to live by certain aspects of Torah which would have been a contradiction in lieu of today's message that the Torah was completely done away with after the resurrection of Jesus and coming of His Spirit.

Scripture teaches we are suppose to challenge people who claim to be apostles:
Re 2:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+2:2&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -"I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;
Scripture teaches that the original apostles laid the foundation:
Eph 2:19,20 19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,
Scriptures also says that the same men will be honored by Jesus for laying the foundation:
Re 21:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+21:14&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

These original disciples were taught every foundational lessons regarding the kingdom of God and the means of possessing the earth for the kingdom of God. They were the initial seed of the kingdom. Every man since them has been a product of the commission that was originally given to them straight from the new spiritual and literal Joshua. They were the new judges of the saints sent forth in the power and wisdom of the Holy Spirit, who was to remind them of everything Jesus originally taught them. They were taught what was holy from profane. They were taught the sound doctrine. They were taught the proper manner of custom and lifestyle regarding this new kingdom. Jesus not only taught them by instruction, but He lived it before them as the example. Ninety-nine percent of what Jesus taught them is not recorded in any Scripture.

What is the proof that they were instructed by Jesus and under the supervision of His Spirit. Would the proof be in the new gospel they preached, the new manner of lifestyle, and new understanding of Torah immediately seen after the day of Pentecost. I know beyond any reasonable doubt that there has not been a purer saint since the original apostles. Yes, they were not perfect because they to are men, but they had the most perfect instruction straight from the Law Giver Himself. We fool ourselves to think we could lay a better foundation than the one laid by the original pupils of Joshua/Jesus.

Now my problem is why do saints post the original apostles lay many different foundations. The things that they warned against have come to past. They warned against factionalism into segregated groups and what do we have, denominations and heretical christian cults. They warned against teaching any new gospel and what do we have, different intepretations of the gospel. A lot of peoples intepretations of Scripture make the original apostles liars and decievers because they teach things that are contrary to the lifestyle and customs of the original apostles. Paul himself with great zeal kept the Holy Feast to the extreme. He planned his trips around being in Jerusalem if at all possible for the Festivals.
Ac 20:16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ac+20:16&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he was hurrying to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the Day of Pentecost.
1Co 5:8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+5:8&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

If the original apostles kept the Holy Feast and anything else regarding Torah then either they were in error or a lot of saints today are in error. Why did the original apostles continue in the things that others said Christ destroyed, abolished, and completed?

According to the Lord Himself as revealed by John, the Lord is still holding us accountable to such things in regards to Spritual Torah:
Re 2:20 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+2:20&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.

Buck shot
Jul 17th 2008, 04:39 PM
Jesus is the foundation, the apostles started building on as we continue today. The thing to always remember is that the apostles were not perfect as the Word is. Do you remember when Paul had to call Peter out for acting one way with the Jews and another with the Gentiles? Peter and Paul both taught that they were not perfect but pointed to Jesus as the Perfect One as we must continue to do today.

1 Cor 3:

10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

keck553
Jul 17th 2008, 04:47 PM
Jesus observed the feasts. If that was good enough for Him, it's good enough and profitable for me (and it has been).

Zack702
Jul 17th 2008, 05:14 PM
If the original apostles kept the Holy Feast and anything else regarding Torah then either they were in error or a lot of saints today are in error. Why did the original apostles continue in the things that others said Christ destroyed, abolished, and completed?


Personally I think that the foundation was being laid and over and over men tried to destroy it. Nevertheless God completed the wall.

The wall being finished that we should dwell behind does not include the labor for the foundation. God completed the labor even when we kept breaking that which was being built.

Spiritually speaking we will always be the followers of our Lord.
But now is the time when we are all shepherds and we are all each others flock. We inherited this from our Lord.

The labors of the wall that protects us we have nothing to do with. Freely we have received. We are not able to work on that foundation nor is there any need to repair it because it is solid and it was laid in spirit.

I think the purpose of it all is to ultimately save us from each other. We must learn from the wall and then into proper perspective we take what we learn and apply it to the world. In our applications of it is where diversity is but the wall nor the foundation ever changes.

timmyb
Jul 18th 2008, 05:23 PM
but if the original 12 was all we need... then why was the Ephesian church testing apostles?... if they could test them and find some to be liars.... could there not be any true ones?

SIG
Jul 19th 2008, 04:30 AM
"How Many Apostles Were There?

Twelve, right? Peter, Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, James the less, Thaddaeus, and Judas. Well, and there was Matthias, who replaced Judas. And Paul. And Timothy and Silas (I Thess. 1:1, 6). Also were Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7), Apollos (I Cor. 5:6,9), Barnabus (Acts 14:14), James, the Lord's brother (Gal. 1:19), and of course, the ultimate and perfect apostle, Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:). So, there's at least 10 more than the twelve who, in scripture, are named apostles."

TrustingFollower
Jul 19th 2008, 04:45 AM
"How Many Apostles Were There?

Twelve, right? Peter, Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, James the less, Thaddaeus, and Judas. Well, and there was Matthias, who replaced Judas. And Paul. And Timothy and Silas (I Thess. 1:1, 6). Also were Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7), Apollos (I Cor. 5:6,9), Barnabus (Acts 14:14), James, the Lord's brother (Gal. 1:19), and of course, the ultimate and perfect apostle, Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:). So, there's at least 10 more than the twelve who, in scripture, are named apostles."
Who of us are in the position to say that the Holy Spirit could not or better yet will not raise new apostles in this day and age. Does not scripture tell us that the latter day church will be greater than the former? If they were given apostles in the first church, why would we not be given them for the latter day church?

watchinginawe
Jul 19th 2008, 03:55 PM
I know beyond any reasonable doubt that there has not been a purer saint since the original apostles. Yes, they were not perfect because they to are men, but they had the most perfect instruction straight from the Law Giver Himself. We fool ourselves to think we could lay a better foundation than the one laid by the original pupils of Joshua/Jesus. You go ahead and place your faith in the "Law Giver" and that foundation and I hope you make out with that.

For me, I will place my faith in the "Grace Giver" and the foundation thereof. I see it as my only chance after understanding where I stood with the "Law Giver". You might say the later led me to the former.

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Jul 19th 2008, 04:00 PM
Jesus observed the feasts. If that was good enough for Him, it's good enough and profitable for me (and it has been).Jesus commanded the cleansed leper to make offerings for a testimony, "according as Moses commanded" (Luke 5:14). Using your logic, this practice must be profitable for us in this day as well. So are you profited by animal sacrifices?

God Bless!

manichunter
Jul 19th 2008, 09:21 PM
You go ahead and place your faith in the "Law Giver" and that foundation and I hope you make out with that.

For me, I will place my faith in the "Grace Giver" and the foundation thereof. I see it as my only chance after understanding where I stood with the "Law Giver". You might say the later led me to the former.

God Bless!


I believe He is both the grace giver and law giver because He said keep His commandments, which as stated in Re 14:12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+14:12&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -
Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Why does Jesus give us the commandments to keep? What is grace for?

Is not to give us licence to live as we see fit or excuse sin. Romans 6:1,21 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

watchinginawe
Jul 19th 2008, 09:40 PM
What is grace for?

Is not to give us licence to live as we see fit or excuse sin. Romans 6:1,21 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?Of course grace isn't for a license to sin. Grace is to save us. Are you saved by grace?

God Bless!

losthorizon
Jul 19th 2008, 10:49 PM
If the original apostles kept the Holy Feast and anything else regarding Torah then either they were in error or a lot of saints today are in error. Why did the original apostles continue in the things that others said Christ destroyed, abolished, and completed?


Your legalistic argument contains many logical fallacies, my friend. The fact that the apostles (all Jews) continued to practice their traditions does not in any way suggest that Christians today must “keep” any portion of the Torah presented under the Old Covenant – a law given only to the Jews until Messiah came and ushered in the “better covenant” – the New Covenant ratified by His blood. Christians today live and die under the Law of Christ and that law warns against those who want to go back under the *bondage of the shadows of Judaism* as you are advocating. I think you are peddling your wares to the wrong folks not even one aspostle commanded any Christian to keep the Law of Moses. This fact alone knocks the legs out from under any non-biblical notion to the contrary.

According to the teaching of those inspired writers of the NT there has been a complete “disannulling” of the Old Covenant which included the Law of Moses (Torah) – why – because there could not be perfection by the Levitical priesthood. That is why Messiah came to offer Himself as the perfect sacrifice. Jesus is also our perfect high priest – not after the order of Aaron but after the order of Melchisedec. And in order for Jesus to be a priest there was of necessity a change in the OT law – not some amendment but a complete and total change – why – because "Our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood". Jesus could not be our high priest if the OT was still in force. That is why it was nailed to the cross with Him… "he canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross" (Col. 2:14).
The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. Psalms 110:4

manichunter
Jul 20th 2008, 05:18 AM
Of course grace isn't for a license to sin. Grace is to save us. Are you saved by grace?

God Bless!

Yes I am saved by grace.

Here is a portion of what I am teaching Sunday:

I.What is Torah
Mt 5:17, 18 - "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
A.Torah
Torah (Law)
v Towrah (Law) means directions and instructions given from an authority figure and instructor to a student
o Hebraic view of Law- the instructions a father would give a child that teaches him the way he should go
o Torah is meant to manifest God and give His people a guide to immolate
o Torah is meant to create a bond between the law giver and law receiver

v Nomos (Law) means rules given by a ruler to its subjects
o Secular view of Law- the legislative ordinances given by a government meant to govern the people
o Nomos is not meant to have the same intimacy of Torah in how it forms a bond between the law giver and law receiver
o Most saints share this secular prospective of Law

B.Other Key words in the text
1.Destroy (Kataluo) to dissolve, disunite, abolish
v Jesus was not putting an end to the Torah
v Jesus was about to instruct His disciples regarding His Torah
o The Torah belongs to Jesus, Jesus is Torah
o The Jews had a warped understanding of Torah caused by carnality and strife within them
o Jesus needed to straightened their view of Torah if they were to be His special priesthood

2.Fulfill (Pleroo) to make full, fill in the gaps, to cause to abound
· What gaps did He fill in
· Gaps in our understanding of Jesus’ Torah
· Gaps in our application of Jesus’ Torah


II.What is Spiritual Torah
Jer 31:33 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=jer+31:33&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
v It is something that God has put inside of our spirit man’s heart/center
· God first wrote Torah by letter
1.This did very little to restrain man who was under the control of a sin nature
· We were a slave to sin
· The Torah of letter could only stop death but not deliver us from the control of sin
2.This Torah of letter would never work if a person did not have the right heart towards God
· A person’s heart towards God was always the gauge God uses to determine if a man love Him
3.Trusting God for His mercy and grace was always the requirement for maintaining fellowship and communion with God
· God always allowed repentance and promised restoration for a repenting heart
· Now God writes Torah on us
· We are no longer slaves to sin, the Torah has taken over our heart which is center of our life
· Now a person has a heart for God

Eze 11:19 19Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them,, 20 and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
v It is something that God gave us in His Holy Spirit to live by
o The letter of Torah was without spiritual aid
§ Israel only had carnality to aid them
§ Mankind only concerned himself with physically keeping the Torah
o The spirit of Torah is with spiritual aid
§ Spiritual Israel is aided by the Holy Spirit
· The Holy Spirit now has a home within us because God's kingdom and Torah is in us
§ Believers now must concern themselves with more than just their physical acts because the Spirit is in our hearts
· Motives
· Attitude
· Intentions

Ro 7:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:14&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
v The Torah is spiritual
o Is how now been raised to the level of spirit
o The bar has been raised, our heart is now judged
o It is now applicable to a spiritual people
o Now the spiritual people have a manner of instruction
o Now the spiritual people have a manner of living

Ro 7:12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ro+7:12&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
v Torah is holy
o It has been sanctified by God for a holy use
o Its holy use has not yet ended
v Torah is just and good
o It is not a burden to live spiritual Torah in spirit and truth
o Spiritual Torah is good for those who uses it lawfully
o The universal laws reward spiritual Torah followers

III.How is Spiritual Torah Applicable
1Jo 5:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1jo+5:2&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en),3 - By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

A.We are commanded by Jesus to live by His commandments
v This shows we love God and his people
o Our love for God is shown by our obedience to the vow we made to the marriage covenant
o Our love for God is shown because we love the same people our God loves

B.We are commanded to teach His commandments
Matt 5:19, 20 19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
v We are required to train people in the way they should go
o Discipleship is not an option
o People need to be instructed in the ways of the kingdom
v We are required to equip the saints for the work of the ministry
o Every believer has a personal calling
o God wants His people to be equip to satisfy this calling
§ Equip with knowledge
§ Equip with character
v We are required to keep the unity of the saints
o The Spiritual Torah is meant to be the glue of the saints
§ We are suppose to have one standard of conduct like a constitution
o Factionalism is a result of multiple carnal torahs
§ The traditions of man has infiltrated
§ Human philosophy has infiltrated

C.Jesus instruction of Spiritual Torah
Matt 5:21-24 21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not murder, F13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=matt+5&section=0&translation=nkj&oq=1jo%25205&new=1&nb=1jo&ng=5&ncc=5#F) and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause F14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=matt+5&section=0&translation=nkj&oq=1jo%25205&new=1&nb=1jo&ng=5&ncc=5#F) shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, "Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, "You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. 23Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
v Jesus reinforces the Torah as it pertains to carnality
v Jesus actually raises the bar of a believer’s expected conduct
v Jesus expands upon Torah and adds the elements that pertain spirit
o Now you can spiritually murder someone
o Now God will not accept your offering if you let a offense remain and not try to reconcile with another saint
o Now you can be held accountable for talking down on another person
§ Raca (Rhaka) Gk- empty, i.e. a senseless, empty headed man

v Matt 5, Matt 6, Matt 7 all pertain to Jesus teaching Torah to His disciples
o Believers should study to show themselves approved before God
o Believers should learn their Master’s and Husband’s commandments
o The commands regard our vows and means of loving both God and man

D.The consequences for rejecting Spiritual Torah
1.A believer never develops mature love for God or the saints
2.A believer never completely equipped to teach and shepherd

3.The ultimate consequent
Matt 7:21-23 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
v Practice lawlessness (Anomia) Gk- the condition of being without law, transgressor a law, contempt for the law, iniquity (state of lawlessness)
o Many believers will live a lawless life
§ They will continue to learn knowledge, but not truth
§ They will use license as a cloak for vice (to do evil under the disguise of good)
o False believers will live a life without coming to the truth of their conditions that they are not saved

manichunter
Jul 20th 2008, 05:24 AM
Your legalistic argument contains many logical fallacies, my friend. The fact that the apostles (all Jews) continued to practice their traditions does not in any way suggest that Christians today must “keep” any portion of the Torah presented under the Old Covenant – a law given only to the Jews until Messiah came and ushered in the “better covenant” – the New Covenant ratified by His blood. Christians today live and die under the Law of Christ and that law warns against those who want to go back under the *bondage of the shadows of Judaism* as you are advocating. I think you are peddling your wares to the wrong folks not even one aspostle commanded any Christian to keep the Law of Moses. This fact alone knocks the legs out from under any non-biblical notion to the contrary.

According to the teaching of those inspired writers of the NT there has been a complete “disannulling” of the Old Covenant which included the Law of Moses (Torah) – why – because there could not be perfection by the Levitical priesthood. That is why Messiah came to offer Himself as the perfect sacrifice. Jesus is also our perfect high priest – not after the order of Aaron but after the order of Melchisedec. And in order for Jesus to be a priest there was of necessity a change in the OT law – not some amendment but a complete and total change – why – because "Our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood". Jesus could not be our high priest if the OT was still in force. That is why it was nailed to the cross with Him… "he canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross" (Col. 2:14).

The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. Psalms 110:4


So what of the sayings from Jesus to obey His commandments, was not He laying down the law for His people to follow. What are the legal demands of the Torah? That one die for sin if they are found guilty of transgression. No problem Jesus did that for me. What are the expectations of the Torah? That all things be well with me and that I prosper in the kingdom of my inheritance. It is time to step up the next level. Why do people think that I am speaking of the old Torah of the letter. I am talking about the manna not of this world. If it could be understood by the carnal mind of man, then we would not need the Holy Spirit. The kingdom has standards, and they are in deed spiritual and loving towards those who love God and his people.

ProjectPeter
Jul 20th 2008, 01:42 PM
So what of the sayings from Jesus to obey His commandments, was not He laying down the law for His people to follow. What are the legal demands of the Torah? That one die for sin if they are found guilty of transgression. No problem Jesus did that for me. What are the expectations of the Torah? That all things be well with me and that I prosper in the kingdom of my inheritance. It is time to step up the next level. Why do people think that I am speaking of the old Torah of the letter. I am talking about the manna not of this world. If it could be understood by the carnal mind of man, then we would not need the Holy Spirit. The kingdom has standards, and they are in deed spiritual and loving towards those who love God and his people.
The reason people think you are speaking of it is because pretty much everything you say speaks of it. You wrap it up a bit in religious speak but it's still the same law of Moses. ;)

losthorizon
Jul 20th 2008, 01:57 PM
So what of the sayings from Jesus to obey His commandments, was not He laying down the law for His people to follow. What are the legal demands of the Torah? That one die for sin if they are found guilty of transgression. No problem Jesus did that for me. What are the expectations of the Torah? That all things be well with me and that I prosper in the kingdom of my inheritance. It is time to step up the next level. Why do people think that I am speaking of the old Torah of the letter. I am talking about the manna not of this world. If it could be understood by the carnal mind of man, then we would not need the Holy Spirit. The kingdom has standards, and they are in deed spiritual and loving towards those who love God and his people.
And herein lies your confusion – the idea of “obeying His commandments” is not always a reference to the Torah (Law of Moses). The old law was fulfilled and nailed to His cross – He came not to destroy but to fulfill that law. Christians today live under the “perfect law of liberty” (Law of Christ) which is not the Torah given only to the nation of Israel. Christians today are to "obey His commandments" as presented under the Law of Christ. You teach that Christians are obligated to “keep” the Torah and you are in error – we are continually warned not to go back under the bondage of Judaism with its many shadows that were once and for all time fulfilled “in Christ Jesus”. Do you deny there was of necessity a complete “disannulling” of the Old Covenant which included the Law of Moses (Torah)? Could Jesus have become our *perfect sacrifice* and *great high priest* under the law given through Moses? What do you think was cancelled and nailed to His cross – ie - what was “the bond which stood against us with its legal demands”?
… "he canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross" (Col. 2:14).

watchinginawe
Jul 20th 2008, 02:31 PM
You have a lot of effort in your lesson manichunter. I want to make some comments but I offer them being completely at odds with your teaching. To my mind, this is also completely at odds with the Gospel. Here is what bothers me:
I.What is Torah
...
v Jesus was about to instruct His disciples regarding His Torah
o The Torah belongs to Jesus, Jesus is Torah
o The Jews had a warped understanding of Torah caused by carnality and strife within them
o Jesus needed to straightened their view of Torah if they were to be His special priesthoodThis is not the Gospel. This was not Jesus' mission. Jesus is not Torah, or Torah incarnate.

By offering that Torah and Jesus are interchangeable, you create "faith in Torah", and "Torah as my Lord and Saviour". You also offer that Jesus only needed to "straighten the Jews out" regarding their view of the Torah for them to be "His priesthood".

You have laid the wrong foundation here IMO.
II.What is Spiritual Torah
...
v It is something that God has put inside of our spirit man’s heart/center
How does it get there? By teaching? What is the mechanism?
· The Torah of letter could only stop death but not deliver us from the control of sin
...
3.Trusting God for His mercy and grace was always the requirement for maintaining fellowship and communion with God
· God always allowed repentance and promised restoration for a repenting heart
· Now God writes Torah on us
· We are no longer slaves to sin, the Torah has taken over our heart which is center of our life
· Now a person has a heart for GodIMO, this is mixed up with your "Jesus is Torah" assertion. The "heart for God", let's call it salvation, let's even call it grace, is delivered by "Torah". "Torah" takes us over and makes our heart for God. And as you offered earlier, "bonding" us with God.

This is so foreign to me that I don't have comments for it.
v We are required to train people in the way they should go
o Discipleship is not an option
o People need to be instructed in the ways of the kingdom
v We are required to equip the saints for the work of the ministry
o Every believer has a personal calling
o God wants His people to be equip to satisfy this calling
§ Equip with knowledge
§ Equip with character
o The Spiritual Torah is meant to be the glue of the saints
§ We are suppose to have one standard of conduct like a constitution
o Factionalism is a result of multiple carnal torahs
§ The traditions of man has infiltrated
§ Human philosophy has infiltratedDisciples of Torah? Unbelievable. I see how you come to this because you have equated Jesus and Torah. A wrong foundation results in a wrong teaching IMO.
D.The consequences for rejecting Spiritual Torah
...
3.The ultimate consequent
Matt 7:21-23 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
v Practice lawlessness (Anomia) Gk- the condition of being without law, transgressor a law, contempt for the law, iniquity (state of lawlessness)
o Many believers will live a lawless life
§ They will continue to learn knowledge, but not truth
§ They will use license as a cloak for vice (to do evil under the disguise of good)
o False believers will live a life without coming to the truth of their conditions that they are not savedThe consequences for rejecting spiritual torah? :o manichunter, all of this teaching is the result of a wrong foundation IMO. I can not even begin to identify it with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. My summary is that you believe Jesus came to "straighten us out" regarding Himself, the Torah. Once straightened out and after God places "spiritual torah" in our hearts, then we are pleasing to God and "bonded" with Him. Like I offered in my first post, I hope you make out OK with that.
Yes I am saved by grace.Do you have an example of a lesson where you make that your foundation?

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Jul 20th 2008, 02:36 PM
Galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

I believe that your message offers that the "offence of the cross" is "obedience".

I propose that the "offence of the cross" is grace. We are saved by grace.

God Bless!

watchinginawe
Jul 20th 2008, 02:37 PM
Here is Paul's offering of "spiritual torah" and "carnality":

Galatians t:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

God Bless!

ProjectPeter
Jul 20th 2008, 10:38 PM
Galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

I believe that your message offers that the "offence of the cross" is "obedience".

I propose that the "offence of the cross" is grace. We are saved by grace.

God Bless!

Sure it was. That's why the Jew sought constantly to kill Paul. That was the uproar in Acts 15 and that is what the uproar was about when Paul was arrested after his return to Jerusalem... the same uproar that James told him that folks were all bunched up about etc. Happens to be exactly the same thing that Paul wrote to the Galatian church in that same letter.

SIG
Jul 20th 2008, 10:58 PM
Been reading a bit on "the offense of the cross"...

It is indeed offensive to the natural man that we must be saved by no doing(s) of our own, but by grace alone.

timmyb
Jul 20th 2008, 11:09 PM
And herein lies your confusion – the idea of “obeying His commandments” is not always a reference to the Torah (Law of Moses). The old law was fulfilled and nailed to His cross – He came not to destroy but to fulfill that law. Christians today live under the “perfect law of liberty” (Law of Christ) which is not the Torah given only to the nation of Israel. Christians today are to "obey His commandments" as presented under the Law of Christ. You teach that Christians are obligated to “keep” the Torah and you are in error – we are continually warned not to go back under the bondage of Judaism with its many shadows that were once and for all time fulfilled “in Christ Jesus”. Do you deny there was of necessity a complete “disannulling” of the Old Covenant which included the Law of Moses (Torah)? Could Jesus have become our *perfect sacrifice* and *great high priest* under the law given through Moses? What do you think was cancelled and nailed to His cross – ie - what was “the bond which stood against us with its legal demands”?
… "he canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross" (Col. 2:14).

May I raise my hand here...

When Jesus said I didn't come to abolish the Law or the Prophets he meant he didn't come to abolish the Law and the Prophets... when he fulfilled them, he by no means abolish them... Because look at the following verses... Whoever does not keep these will be called LEAST in the kingdom of heaven.. and who ever does these and teaches others to do so will be called GREAT in the Kingdom of Heaven...

Notice how in Romans Paul encourages us to keep the RIGHTEOUS requirement of the law... Hebrews is clear on what part of the Mosaic covenant is abolished and what part of it stays.... do we not still have the Ten Commandments? Is that not Old Testament?

Bick
Jul 21st 2008, 01:12 AM
Quote from Manichunter:
Who were the true Apostles that the foundation was built upon? Was the original inner circle of disciples of Jesus who later became His initial apostles? Or was it the early church fathers like Justin and Augustine? If they were the original twelve, why did they adhere to and observe some of the things that were written in the Torah?

A good question, M. I wrestled with this for awhile, and can only give you my conclusion base on the Scriptures.

Of course, we all know who the 12 Apostles are. Eleven of them called to Jesus from the beginning of His ministry, with Mathias being added to replace Judas Iscariot; That these 12 will have a large part in the coming Messianic Kingdom, for Jesus tells them (except Mathias):

"I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." NIV, Matt. 19:28.

The verse referred to is, I believe, Ephesians 2:19ff:

"Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit." NIV

As members of the body of Christ, we are 'new creations'. Jew or Gentile, rich or poor, slave or master, male or female: in Christ we are all equal.

Through out Israel's history they were the head of the nations, until they fell into sin and idolatry and were scattered among the nations. But,in the promised Messianic kingdom, Jesus will be Messiah, king over all the earth, and Israel will again be head over all the nations.

But, the body of Christ is different for we are all one in Christ. As heirs of God and Joint-heirs with Christ, we will be witnesses in the heavenlies to the incomparable riches of his grace to the principalities and powers in the heavenlies. Read Ephesians 1--3.

So, it is my opinion that the apostles and prophets in Eph. 2:20 are those starting with Paul, and co-workers with him in the churches he established.

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 01:34 AM
God Bless!


Thanks brother. This is okay, we simply do not agree on this point. However, we are both brothers of the same Lord. Hence, we will be brought into unity by some means in the future. Praise God that we will no longer be separated by the veil of flesh in the kingdom of God. This is the day I actually look forward too. I think it will be in accordance to standard being raised for all believers.

I know that I am speaking a foriegn language to most. This is of no importance right now. Our debates and disagreements are not the point. This is common among the saints that we disagree and argue in our carnality. The preparation of the saints is point.

By the way, I keep telling people but they do not understand my Swahili LOL. I do not live the Torah in my flesh. I do not keep and adhere to any ordinances in the manner of the first covenant Israel, but in light of Jesus's resurrection and second coming.

I have a question. Do you obey the speeding limits on the streets of your neighborhood? Who are you obeying if you do or disobeying if you don't? What spirit should you be in if you do not?

watchinginawe
Jul 21st 2008, 01:46 AM
Here is a portion of what I am teaching Sunday...Thanks for the post back. :hmm: But I am wondering, did you finish that lesson today? :lol: That outline is good for at least a 4 week series. :)

Anyway, I hope you mull over the message of grace and what it is composed of. I hope to catch you in another thread where our starting points aren't so disparate.

God Bless!

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 01:51 AM
Thanks for the post back. :hmm: But I am wondering, did you finish that lesson today? :lol: That outline is good for at least a 4 week series. :)

Anyway, I hope you mull over the message of grace and what it is composed of. I hope to catch you in another thread where our starting points aren't so disparate.

God Bless!

Yes, I did, it took about two hours. We meet in home churches on just Sunday and we do not usually teach from the same text every week. This week we did. My pastor taught on the same thing. We did not even coordinate our messages and talked of the same thing, it was glorious. I am about to go visit him now. He often reviews my work and study, but he never shows me His lessons or that of the other ministers. I told the congregation that it will be discussed in greater detail later. This was just an introduction so far. The Spirit has been putting me to study lately.

Anyway, much love brother, holla later.

watchinginawe
Jul 21st 2008, 01:55 AM
Been reading a bit on "the offense of the cross"...

It is indeed offensive to the natural man that we must be saved by no doing(s) of our own, but by grace alone.Exactly. It is a scary thought that Christ could be made "of no effect" to us. It boils down to what and/or who we place our faith in.

God Bless!

losthorizon
Jul 21st 2008, 03:24 AM
It is time to step up the next level. Why do people think that I am speaking of the old Torah of the letter. I am talking about the manna not of this world.

By any other name – whether “old Torah” or “manna not of this world” your doctrine is the same – you teach that one must go back under the shadows of Judaism that were fulfilled in Christ – Christians today live and die under the New Testament – the gospel of grace and if you move up to that level you will realize that the Law of Moses in its entirety has been nailed to His cross – its function as our "tutor" to bring us to Christ has been fulfilled and it has been “disannulled and waxed olde" for over 2000 years - we are now justified by faith because "faith has now come"…
"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." (Galatians 3:24, 25)

Vhayes
Jul 21st 2008, 03:39 AM
So what of the sayings from Jesus to obey His commandments, was not He laying down the law for His people to follow. What are the legal demands of the Torah? That one die for sin if they are found guilty of transgression. No problem Jesus did that for me. What are the expectations of the Torah? That all things be well with me and that I prosper in the kingdom of my inheritance. It is time to step up the next level. Why do people think that I am speaking of the old Torah of the letter. I am talking about the manna not of this world. If it could be understood by the carnal mind of man, then we would not need the Holy Spirit. The kingdom has standards, and they are in deed spiritual and loving towards those who love God and his people.
John 15
12 - "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

Matthew 7
12 - "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

If we love God with all of our heart, we will have no other gods before Him. That means NO other gods, be they self, family, material items, profession, friends, etc. God ALWAYS comes first.

If we love our neighbor as ourself, we will do our neighbor no harm. None at all.

This is the commandment that Jesus gave. This is the law and the prophets.

We try to make it so much more complex than it is.

losthorizon
Jul 21st 2008, 03:54 AM
May I raise my hand here...

When Jesus said I didn't come to abolish the Law or the Prophets he meant he didn't come to abolish the Law and the Prophets... when he fulfilled them, he by no means abolish them... Because look at the following verses... Whoever does not keep these will be called LEAST in the kingdom of heaven.. and who ever does these and teaches others to do so will be called GREAT in the Kingdom of Heaven...

Notice how in Romans Paul encourages us to keep the RIGHTEOUS requirement of the law... Hebrews is clear on what part of the Mosaic covenant is abolished and what part of it stays.... do we not still have the Ten Commandments? Is that not Old Testament?


Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Jesus is explaining the error of the Pharisees who taught that some commandments held more weight than others – we still see this today in Christendom where some divide between “mortal sins” and “venial sins” but Jesus is saying in His kingdom there are no such distinctions – all of His commandments carry the same weight. Under the New Testament the “requirement of the law” is not a reference to the law of Moses but to the law of Christ. Christians have never been under the Law of Moses and the Ten Commandment Law was part of the Mosaical system given to the Jews only. Nine of the Ten Commandments are reiterated in the NT (the 4th commandment is not given to Christians) and we are to obey those laws not because they were part of the Law of Moses but because they are part of the New Testament.