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manichunter
Jul 18th 2008, 04:38 AM
Why don't Christians have the same theology?

What is the matter? I believe it is carnality. I believe carnality has been disguising itself as spirit, hence every man is right in his own eyes.

Joey Porter
Jul 18th 2008, 04:48 AM
You are right! You are absolutely right. Believe it. Yahweh has revealed to you that that the church, as a whole, can NOT be truly being led by the Spirit when ther are so many conflicting "Truths." This has been the case for the last 2,000 years.

Have you ever pondered on these words of the Lord:

John 9
4As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work.

SweetSomber
Jul 18th 2008, 04:52 AM
I believe it's because we're human.

None of us can have 100% truth. Only God, who is all-knowing can. We are bound to be either inaccurate, or even if completely accurate, incomplete in our knowledge.

---------------
There's this story that makes a good point:

Three blind men meet an elephant, and try to describe the elephant to each other.

BlindMan1 feels the elephants tail and says: Hey guys - I think I understand what an elephant is like. It's like a rope!

BlindMan2 feels the leg of the elephant, and replies: No, no, much too wide and solid to be like a rope, I'd say that it's much more like the trunk of a tree.

BlindMan3 feel the trunk of the elephant, and responds to the others: I think both of you have a point: The elephant is like a large solid tree trunk, but is also as flexible as a rope.

-----------------------------

We can each try our best to understand God and absolute truth, but we are only human, are bound to differ - even sincere christians are like the blind men.

God teaches different people different truths first. We do not all learn the same truths at the same time in the same order. Carnality can slow someone's understanding of the truth, to be sure, but even without carnality, we cannot be all-knowing like God, and there are bound to be different theologies, which is to say, different understanding of what God and His truth are like.

manichunter
Jul 18th 2008, 05:00 AM
One thing I find amazing is that the Lord left the natural nation of Israel with an established theology and doctrine. He only gave them one theology. It was evident that they got off course a few times by people doing right in their own eyes. They went apostate because they got away from the theology God gave them. Jesus revealed to the Pharisees and Sadducees that carnality was at the root of their factionalism and different theologies.

Here is the riddle. Why would the Lord come in person to establish a new spiritual people (Israel) and not leave them a theology and doctrine. According to the Second Covenant Scripture, Jesus did leave His people with one theology and doctrine straight from His mouth. So how did we go from one theology that was again given by God Himself to mutltiple and different theologies? I believe carnality is at work again and everyone is right in their own eyes.

SweetSomber
Jul 18th 2008, 05:05 AM
So how did we go from one theology that was again given by God Himself to mutltiple and different theologies? I believe carnality is at work again and everyone is right in their own eyes.

Well, me and my friend differ very much on theology. We both love the Lord, and are entirely dedicated to Him and doing His work. We both love to learn truth. We both know that we could be wrong - scripture is true, but our interpretation may be inaccurate.

So is he being carnal or I, that there is this difference?

manichunter
Jul 18th 2008, 05:25 AM
Well, me and my friend differ very much on theology. We both love the Lord, and are entirely dedicated to Him and doing His work. We both love to learn truth. We both know that we could be wrong - scripture is true, but our interpretation may be inaccurate.

So is he being carnal or I, that there is this difference?


I say this to my own shame as well. We are commanded to ensure that we in end the truth. Carnality is not truth, though it can be knowledge. Carnality always produced pride in what a person knows. Just look at some of the post and see for yourself. This includes my post as well because I have been known to slip often. Carnal theology shows itself to be just knowledge when it does not produce love, humility, and brotherly kindness. Truth also provocates a change in behavior and attitude. Carnal theology only produces more intelligence..........

As to your question, both of you guys could be carnal or just one. It depends of the manifestation of love and humility.

matthew94
Jul 18th 2008, 05:32 AM
There are a variety of reasons and anyone who pretends there's only 1 reason for this has a particular axe to grind. Part of the reason is, surely, carnality. Part of the reason is simply b/c God is complex. Part of the reason is b/c we emphasize different aspects of truth. Part of the reason is b/c we are imperfect human beings.

SweetSomber
Jul 18th 2008, 05:57 AM
Carnal theology only produces more intelligence..........

So true. Like the Bible says, "knowledge puffs up, but love edifies." (1 Cor. 8:1)

Your comment reminds me of a quote I heard recently, I can't remember exactly what is was, but it went like this:

The devil understands true theology better than any of us, and is a devil all the same!

matthew94
Jul 18th 2008, 06:05 AM
1. Some people just don't remain teachable
2. Denominational loyalty can surpass loyalty to the text
3. Addiction to certainty excludes thoughtful consideration
4. Some only defend beliefs, they never question them
5. Sometimes it really is just semantics
6. Maybe it's not a different belief, it's a different emphasis
7. Beliefs look different at different stages of understanding
8. Some lack hermeneutical skills
9. Some lack historical knowledge
10. Pride interprets passages toward self
11. Loyalty to theological systems and labels
12. Some allow the world to influence their interpretations

Joey Porter
Jul 18th 2008, 07:11 AM
1. Some people just don't remain teachable
2. Denominational loyalty can surpass loyalty to the text
3. Addiction to certainty excludes thoughtful consideration
4. Some only defend beliefs, they never question them
5. Sometimes it really is just semantics
6. Maybe it's not a different belief, it's a different emphasis
7. Beliefs look different at different stages of understanding
8. Some lack hermeneutical skills
9. Some lack historical knowledge
10. Pride interprets passages toward self
11. Loyalty to theological systems and labels
12. Some allow the world to influence their interpretations

You forgot the 13th reason, and the ultimate reason:

Ezekiel 14
4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself in keeping with his great idolatry.

The reason there are so many theologies and denominations is because Yahweh Himself answers people according to whatever beliefs they already have established in their heart. That's why everyone is so convinced they're hearing from the LORD and that their belief is correct.

manichunter
Jul 18th 2008, 12:06 PM
You forgot the 13th reason, and the ultimate reason:

Ezekiel 14
4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself in keeping with his great idolatry.

The reason there are so many theologies and denominations is because Yahweh Himself answers people according to whatever beliefs they already have established in their heart. That's why everyone is so convinced they're hearing from the LORD and that their belief is correct.


Some of the idols being the churches we build at the expense of the true church (people needs not being met), theologies we build at the expense of unity, and traditions that do not produce the righteousness of God.

manichunter
Jul 18th 2008, 12:15 PM
The facts remains that Natural Israel wrongs judged to be in sin for having multiple theologies when God left them with one. How is the present body any different when Jesus left us with one doctrine, which He left with the apostles. Any other theology than the one Jesus taught is sin.

Joey Porter
Jul 18th 2008, 12:23 PM
The facts remains that Natural Israel wrongs judged to be in sin for having multiple theologies when God left them with one. How is the present body any different when Jesus left us with one doctrine, which He left with the apostles. Any other theology than the one Jesus taught is sin.

It is no different. History repeats itself again and again. Human nature is human nature. It doesn't matter what culture.

But remember, this is all by Yahweh's design. However, at this time, at the beginning of the "third day" since Christ established the church, He is getting ready to call out a people who will be united as one, and prepare the way for His return. He is getting ready to call a bride out of the body.

seamus414
Jul 18th 2008, 12:27 PM
Why don't Christians have the same theology?

What is the matter? I believe it is carnality. I believe carnality has been disguising itself as spirit, hence every man is right in his own eyes.


Mainly because someone in the 16th Century believed that the Scriptures could be read by an individual to draw his own conclusions without any knowledge and/or consideration for other people or - more importantly - without any knowledge and/or of historical Christian theology or practice.

As a result, based upon this legacy, whomever reads the Bible can draw their own unique conclusion, brand them as (allegedly) teachings flowing from God's word and therefore the correct and unassailable "truth". This paradigm, which is essential to the contental Reformation, has led to over 30,000 denominations in the US alone each with their own spin on theology, practice, and church governance and each considers itself unassailable because they, allegedly, have developed their theology, practice, and governance based upon the teachings of the Bible.

As a result, as all believe they are "Bible based" (based upon their own reading of it, of course) they refuse to use any objective standard to guage whether their beliefs are actually consistent with the Bible.

The above, in a nutshell, answers your question. Take note that from the year A.D.33 (the founding of Christianity) to 1054 there was one Christian denomination. From 1054 to 1517 there were two denominations seperated for political reasons. From 1517 to the present, tens of thousands of theologically diverse denominations sprang up. What happened in 1517? The advancement of the idea that the Scriptures could be read by an individual to draw his own conclusions without any knowledge and/or consideration for other people or - more importantly - without any knowledge and/or of historical Christian theology or practice.

Metadyjital
Jul 18th 2008, 01:45 PM
God is beyond our finding out, His ways above our ways - could it possibly be that some have simply seen a side of God that we have not? A element of God revealed to them for personal growth and they then made a doctrine of it?

I think we seek to many times to define and subscribe God to a select existence of laws and confinements and this is error. God has many facets to Himself - I rarely find myself arguing over doctrines these days unless they deteriorate the message of the Gospel and the saving power of Jesus Christ or the grace by which we are essentially saved.

Do I care about:
eternal security
baptism of the Holy Spirit
post pre mid trib rapture

nah! Why should I? What I want to know is : Do you love Jesus Christ with all your heart, mind, soul and strength? If the answer is Yes - I'm good with that

theleast
Jul 18th 2008, 01:52 PM
Why don't Christians have the same theology?

What is the matter? I believe it is carnality. I believe carnality has been disguising itself as spirit, hence every man is right in his own eyes.

The simple truth is because people put their own interpretations to the scriptures as opposed to letting the Holy Spirit interpret for them.

Joey Porter
Jul 18th 2008, 02:29 PM
God is beyond our finding out, His ways above our ways - could it possibly be that some have simply seen a side of God that we have not? A element of God revealed to them for personal growth and they then made a doctrine of it?

I think we seek to many times to define and subscribe God to a select existence of laws and confinements and this is error. God has many facets to Himself - I rarely find myself arguing over doctrines these days unless they deteriorate the message of the Gospel and the saving power of Jesus Christ or the grace by which we are essentially saved.

Do I care about:
eternal security
baptism of the Holy Spirit
post pre mid trib rapture

nah! Why should I? What I want to know is : Do you love Jesus Christ with all your heart, mind, soul and strength? If the answer is Yes - I'm good with that

If I may jump in here. If Christ is the way, the TRUTH, and the life, how is it that we can compromise on Truth? Eternal security should be a huge issue for everyone. It can make all the difference in the world pertaining to someone's eternal destiny (from the church's perspective).

Now let me ask you another question. You claim that you love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. How can you prove this? What criteria do you use to prove you fill these measurements?

tgallison
Jul 18th 2008, 02:39 PM
Mainly because someone in the 16th Century believed that the Scriptures could be read by an individual to draw his own conclusions without any knowledge and/or consideration for other people or - more importantly - without any knowledge and/or of historical Christian theology or practice.

As a result, based upon this legacy, whomever reads the Bible can draw their own unique conclusion, brand them as (allegedly) teachings flowing from God's word and therefore the correct and unassailable "truth". This paradigm, which is essential to the contental Reformation, has led to over 30,000 denominations in the US alone each with their own spin on theology, practice, and church governance and each considers itself unassailable because they, allegedly, have developed their theology, practice, and governance based upon the teachings of the Bible.

As a result, as all believe they are "Bible based" (based upon their own reading of it, of course) they refuse to use any objective standard to guage whether their beliefs are actually consistent with the Bible.

The above, in a nutshell, answers your question. Take note that from the year A.D.33 (the founding of Christianity) to 1054 there was one Christian denomination. From 1054 to 1517 there were two denominations seperated for political reasons. From 1517 to the present, tens of thousands of theologically diverse denominations sprang up. What happened in 1517? The advancement of the idea that the Scriptures could be read by an individual to draw his own conclusions without any knowledge and/or consideration for other people or - more importantly - without any knowledge and/or of historical Christian theology or practice.

Well at least the Vatican cannot be blamed for this.

terrell

matthew94
Jul 18th 2008, 02:51 PM
You guys seem to be acting as if differing theologies is ENTIRELY a wicked thing. But that's only partially true. Sure, a lot of differences arise from bad reasons, but we need to keep in mind that one of the reasons we have different theologies is because God's revelation to us, in the present time, is not exhaustive. Perhaps He feels that there is value in a variety of approaches to understanding Him. Perhaps He feels that digging and debating theology is an important part to discovering His true nature.

So we can sit around and complain that different Christians have different ideas about God, and, worse yet, try to argue that every Christian that views God differently than we do is not following the Spirit's lead. OR we can rejoice that the vast majority agree on the essentials and continue digging and debating and discovering the greatness of God through theological discourse.

grptinHisHand
Jul 18th 2008, 03:08 PM
You guys seem to be acting as if differing theologies is ENTIRELY a wicked thing. But that's only partially true. Sure, a lot of differences arise from bad reasons, but we need to keep in mind that one of the reasons we have different theologies is because God's revelation to us, in the present time, is not exhaustive. Perhaps He feels that there is value in a variety of approaches to understanding Him. Perhaps He feels that digging and debating theology is an important part to discovering His true nature.

So we can sit around and complain that different Christians have different ideas about God, and, worse yet, try to argue that every Christian that views God differently than we do is not following the Spirit's lead. OR we can rejoice that the vast majority agree on the essentials and continue digging and debating and discovering the greatness of God through theological discourse.

Thank you. Well said. :)
g

Metadyjital
Jul 18th 2008, 03:55 PM
If I may jump in here. If Christ is the way, the TRUTH, and the life, how is it that we can compromise on Truth? Eternal security should be a huge issue for everyone. It can make all the difference in the world pertaining to someone's eternal destiny (from the church's perspective).

Now let me ask you another question. You claim that you love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. How can you prove this? What criteria do you use to prove you fill these measurements?


well the most accurate assement of this is made by fruit, and ones confession of Jesus Christ

See how you are jumping to critera and what is truth and so on - God is not comprised of little criteria, denominations and pet doctrines - by this shall all men know you are my dsciples that you have love one for another

thsi statement speaks nothing of pet doctrines but of love, nor does is discuss or include if you believe all the correct things - but instead encapsulates the one ever present demand

love the Lord your God with all your heart mind soul and strength and the second is to love your neighbor as yourself

if someone is keeping the greatest commandment and the second as well
is it really a salvation issue if he does or does not believe in eternal security? If so - how and why? - and please answer that

the church has spent years majoring in the minors
Eternal security
Baptismal regeneration
Predestination

And so on – do any of these really matter? No of course not – what matters is this – Do we love God – Love manifest itself in action not just a feeling, and that action causes us to abide by the Word, live holy and so on – its with a mans heart that he believes unto righteousness not his head…

Metadyjital
Jul 18th 2008, 03:56 PM
Also your use of the word huge

Eternal security should be a huge issue for everyone.

why in the WORLD should it be huge?

fewarechosen
Jul 18th 2008, 04:19 PM
i think for many of us it is lack of dedication , faith and charity. i find that when i dont learn something its only because of my own sin clogging my eye.

god never witholds information from us, we do it to ourselves with our actions. we chose the world over him all the time. we chose a house and car payments over having nothing and walking town to town to preach and be mocked. we choose a wife and kids because we want a place to rest our head and in so doing choose earthly cares. im choosing to be on this internet board right now instead of being out in the world doing something better.

our love for each other has grown cold, i am guilty of that probably more than most. our compassion and forgiveness is weak at best. look how we bicker with each other and try to prove things to each other when we should realize we are on the same team and work together.

my actions should be my words and then i would be listened to. paul struck a man blind and someone watching it was converted to christ because he saw the power and not just empty words. many believed on christ because he had works and not just words. if i raised a dead man then explained my view of scripture more people would listen, but because i chose to give into sin willingly i can do no such thing.

so in the end i am the reason there are different theologies

seamus414
Jul 18th 2008, 07:48 PM
Perhaps I approach things too much like the Anglican that I am, but more than different theologies, why do these "different theologies" lead to division? Why cannot we be united in our differences as well as our samenesses?

fewarechosen
Jul 18th 2008, 07:54 PM
Perhaps I approach things too much like the Anglican that I am, but more than different theologies, why do these "different theologies" lead to division? Why cannot we be united in our differences as well as our samenesses?


good point and i think that is mostly our pride, we get our heckles up and sort of want to prove eachother wrong or something.

grptinHisHand
Jul 18th 2008, 07:58 PM
Perhaps I approach things too much like the Anglican that I am, but more than different theologies, why do these "different theologies" lead to division? Why cannot we be united in our differences as well as our samenesses?

At least as long as we agree on basics: Jesus is the Way, the Truth, the Life, no man comes to God but through Him; that the Bible is the inerrant, inspired Word of God, ... You know, basic fundamental truths. :hug:

g

SweetSomber
Jul 19th 2008, 12:46 AM
The reason there are so many theologies and denominations is because Yahweh Himself answers people according to whatever beliefs they already have established in their heart. That's why everyone is so convinced they're hearing from the LORD and that their belief is correct.

Hold on, hold on! Correct me if I'm understanding you wrong; Are you saying that our holy and pure God LIES to people?

SweetSomber
Jul 19th 2008, 12:51 AM
1. Some people just don't remain teachable
2. Denominational loyalty can surpass loyalty to the text
3. Addiction to certainty excludes thoughtful consideration
4. Some only defend beliefs, they never question them
5. Sometimes it really is just semantics
6. Maybe it's not a different belief, it's a different emphasis
7. Beliefs look different at different stages of understanding
8. Some lack hermeneutical skills
9. Some lack historical knowledge
10. Pride interprets passages toward self
11. Loyalty to theological systems and labels
12. Some allow the world to influence their interpretations

Good logical reasons. :) I'm sure there are more.

I'd like to emphasis two of these reasons:

A - The devil loves to mix truth and lie (just read about him talking to Eve or Jesus - always twists the truth) He's the "father of all liars" and so I'm sure he deceives people. The Bible specifically says that he intends, if possible, to deceive the elect.

B - According to 1 Cor. 13, now we only know "in part," but sometday (in heaven) we shall know just as we also are known. We just can't get there here on earth, no matter how non-carnal we are! :) We'll never be 100% accurate.

manichunter
Jul 19th 2008, 06:26 AM
It is no different. History repeats itself again and again. Human nature is human nature. It doesn't matter what culture.

But remember, this is all by Yahweh's design. However, at this time, at the beginning of the "third day" since Christ established the church, He is getting ready to call out a people who will be united as one, and prepare the way for His return. He is getting ready to call a bride out of the body.


You are surely on the right path, my brother. I have this same calling of preparing the saints for the return of the Lord. It is why the Lord said that Elijah must come again. Elijah only comes to prepare the way for the Lord. How does one who comes in the spirit of Elijah minister before the Lord comes ministers to people. He always come with the message repent for the judgement is set and coming immediately. There are many Elijahs about to go forth in this next few years during this period of Atonement as the stage for the tribulation is set. Who is Elijah calling to repentance. First the house of God where judgement as ways begins. The first fruit saints first, then the rest of the body. Then the world faces the judgement in the last three and half years.......

manichunter
Jul 19th 2008, 09:30 PM
Good logical reasons. :) I'm sure there are more.

I'd like to emphasis two of these reasons:

A - The devil loves to mix truth and lie (just read about him talking to Eve or Jesus - always twists the truth) He's the "father of all liars" and so I'm sure he deceives people. The Bible specifically says that he intends, if possible, to deceive the elect.

B - According to 1 Cor. 13, now we only know "in part," but sometday (in heaven) we shall know just as we also are known. We just can't get there here on earth, no matter how non-carnal we are! :) We'll never be 100% accurate.

This is not an excuse. God is expecting more from us because He gave more to us.

1.He gave His commandments for unity (but we are not following them), He said how can a house divided stand. Some respect His commandments, some misunderstand them, and some disdain them.

2.He gave the Holy Spirit which is suppose to remind us all things He said, but we have failed to unite in this as well. Carnality cannot fellowship with the Holy Spirit, hence as long as any group of believers allow carnality to dominate their thought life, then they can abide in the Spirit or Truth.

3.He gave apostles, prophets, evangelist, and pastor and teachers, but these post have cease to be prominent, functionable, and out front.
Eph 4:11-14 11And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

Joey Porter
Jul 19th 2008, 11:37 PM
well the most accurate assement of this is made by fruit, and ones confession of Jesus Christ

See how you are jumping to critera and what is truth and so on - God is not comprised of little criteria, denominations and pet doctrines - by this shall all men know you are my dsciples that you have love one for another

thsi statement speaks nothing of pet doctrines but of love, nor does is discuss or include if you believe all the correct things - but instead encapsulates the one ever present demand

love the Lord your God with all your heart mind soul and strength and the second is to love your neighbor as yourself

if someone is keeping the greatest commandment and the second as well
is it really a salvation issue if he does or does not believe in eternal security? If so - how and why? - and please answer that

the church has spent years majoring in the minors
Eternal security
Baptismal regeneration
Predestination

And so on – do any of these really matter? No of course not – what matters is this – Do we love God – Love manifest itself in action not just a feeling, and that action causes us to abide by the Word, live holy and so on – its with a mans heart that he believes unto righteousness not his head…

Perhaps you misunderstood my question. When I ask how can you be sure that you love God with "all your heart, mind, soul, and strength?" Is there some sort of measuring device that we can use to see if we are loving him with ALL of these aspects of ourselves? Of course not.

Listen to this - Christ gave us a commandment that is entirely impossible for us to know whether or not we are keeping! The greatest commandment of all commandment is one that we can not even boast of keeping because we have absolutely no way of knowing or proving that we are keeping it. We know whether or not we are bearing false witness. We know if we have murdered someone. We even know whether or not we are coveting something or someone. But we just don't know if we are truly loving God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength. And I think that anyone who is being honest with themselves will agree with that statement.

Why is the eternal security debate such a huge issue? Because, to be honest, somebody on at least one side of that debate is preaching a false gospel and is anathema.

Let me give you arguments within the church, by those who hold to different theologies, that I have seen. These are not my arguments. I am just showing you how this issue, according to the church, makes all the difference between being saved and burning in hell forever (according the the church's teachings).


Free grace eternal security teachers say that as long as a person says a sinners prayer, they are eternally saved, regardless of what happens thereafter.

Lordship eternal security teachers say that a person is eternally secure as long as he's living a Godly life. If he is not, he was never saved, even if he believes that Christ died and rose again.

Those who believe you can lose your salvation teach that you must first believe and then also obey.

Eternal security people teach that those who believe you must believe and obey are adding works to the gospel, and that would make them anathema.

However, those who believe you can lose your salvation insist that those who teach free grace eternal security are deceiving millions to hell because they don't stress on a true change of heart.

As for the Lordship group, while they inist that belief only is necessary for salvation, they teach that a man's works determine if he has truly been saved. So in reality, there is not way to separate individual works from assurance of salvation. So what gospel are they preaching?

See the confusion? See the importance of knowing the truth? Somebody within this debate is preaching a different gospel.

Joey Porter
Jul 19th 2008, 11:45 PM
Hold on, hold on! Correct me if I'm understanding you wrong; Are you saying that our holy and pure God LIES to people?

I am just showing you scripture.

Ezekiel 14
9And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

2 Thessalonians 2
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

manichunter
Jul 20th 2008, 06:02 AM
I am just showing you scripture.

Ezekiel 14
9And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

2 Thessalonians 2
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

God is not the author of the delusions, He just allows the delusions to take place and does not restrain the enemy giving the delusions.

David2
Jul 20th 2008, 07:43 AM
EPH 4:4-6: "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;

one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all."

It seems that Eph 4 is important in this discussion since this is not the first time it is quoted. The intention in the beginning was clear. There should have been only one body, one faith and one baptism.

This great unity can only be found in the Bible and in humble submission to the Word of God. The first step to rediscover this unity would be to agree on the place the Bible should have in our lives and to get rid of man made structures that divided us like denominations theologies and ordinances.

manichunter
Jul 20th 2008, 07:56 AM
EPH 4:4-6: "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;

one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all."

It seems that Eph 4 is important in this discussion since this is not the first time it is quoted. The intention in the beginning was clear. There should have been only one body, one faith and one baptism.

This great unity can only be found in the Bible and in humble submission to the Word of God. The first step to rediscover this unity would be to agree on the place the Bible should have in our lives and to get rid of man made structures that divided us like denominations theologies and ordinances.


Only God can do this that, and that will require judgment that brings down carnal walls and establish His people in restoration.

ProjectPeter
Jul 20th 2008, 01:17 PM
One thing I find amazing is that the Lord left the natural nation of Israel with an established theology and doctrine. He only gave them one theology. It was evident that they got off course a few times by people doing right in their own eyes. They went apostate because they got away from the theology God gave them. Jesus revealed to the Pharisees and Sadducees that carnality was at the root of their factionalism and different theologies.

Here is the riddle. Why would the Lord come in person to establish a new spiritual people (Israel) and not leave them a theology and doctrine. According to the Second Covenant Scripture, Jesus did leave His people with one theology and doctrine straight from His mouth. So how did we go from one theology that was again given by God Himself to mutltiple and different theologies? I believe carnality is at work again and everyone is right in their own eyes.
And here you sit... 100 percent sure you're right. See how it works. ;)

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 12:11 AM
And here you sit... 100 percent sure you're right. See how it works. ;)

I am not right or wrong. It is not a matter of pride for me. We should be brothers that encourage one another to seek God in spirit and truth. I am by no means of any understanding if it means showing off or putting another saint to slander or disgrace. I do not attempt to be right. I would hope that we both could discover the mysteries that the ministering Holy Spirit desires to speak to us. Why can't we strive together in unity. It is the very measure of this thread. We have multiple theologies. Hence a lack of true brotherly love and unity.

There is only one truth, and all good and holy knowledge speaks about Him. Jesus is the truth and He is one, moreover His doctrine is one. The belief in more than one truth leads to strife, division, and the lies of the devil. The devil is the author of confusion. His the multiple theologies that exist within the christian community is of the devil............

Mt 12:25 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+12:25&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: God can only bring about unity by humbling the prideful knowledge of others by revealing the lack of character in some. After they are humbled, then He can restore His truth in them. Then raise the level of His truth in others who lack it. I sound like some wierdo to myself.......... All I know is that the Scripture reveal that the entire Torah is centered around two central principles of loving God, then our neighbor. If we say we love God, but cannot love our brother, then we lie about loving God. That is what I see from the murders (murder of character is sin) and raca (calling our brother empty and foolish without merit) directed towards some saints in society. Each segregated group denouncing and backbiting against another.

ProjectPeter
Jul 21st 2008, 12:24 AM
It's about doctrine... you know that. How can one that has total doctrinal difference be "united?" They can't. Can I unite with ALL doctrines simply because they lay claim to Christianity? No. Not without being a form of contention. Even if I kept my mouth shut my heart wouldn't be in it.

Now... I don't know of a lot of churches that go on about "those Baptist down the street" or those "Methodist are lost and frying" or the etc. etc. That certainly used to go on quite a lot. But it is something that doesn't happen nearly as much now... at least not from the pulpit.

But point is... I can deal with a lot of things "doctrinally" wise. But my big rule... there is no unity outside of holiness. Don't care how much it is a lovely thought to be unified.

Joey Porter
Jul 21st 2008, 12:37 AM
God is not the author of the delusions, He just allows the delusions to take place and does not restrain the enemy giving the delusions.

Well, I wouldn't say that's entirely scripturally accurate. But at any rate, He uses delusions for His purpose.

Joey Porter
Jul 21st 2008, 12:38 AM
But point is... I can deal with a lot of things "doctrinally" wise. But my big rule... there is no unity outside of holiness. Don't care how much it is a lovely thought to be unified.


Yeah, but even "holiness" is a relative term. What's holy to one man may not be so to another. It's a nevereding dilemma.

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 12:39 AM
But point is... I can deal with a lot of things "doctrinally" wise. But my big rule... there is no unity outside of holiness. Don't care how much it is a lovely thought to be unified.

Your big rule, that sounds like personal torah. LOL, just joking.

That is what I concluded my message with today about Spiritual Torah. Why do a lot of believers have a problem with spiritual torah. No person can serve to masters. That the problem believers have with the Spiritual Torah written in their heart and mind is the fact that their carnal soul already has its own personal torah, hence they cannot abide together unless their be a war. Hence, for those under the control of their carnal nature, their personal torahs prevail in this war over the sanctification of a person. We all have our own personal torahs. It is up to us to let them be crucified by picking up our own cross, deny our self, and surrendering to the Lords commandments.

ProjectPeter
Jul 21st 2008, 12:39 AM
Yeah, but even "holiness" is a relative term. What's holy to one man may not be so to another. It's a nevereding dilemma.
Sure... hence the point I made on my first post in the thread. ;)

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 12:40 AM
Well, I wouldn't say that's entirely scripturally accurate. But at any rate, He uses delusions for His purpose.

Where is the scripture that states differently. I ask not out of offense but for want of knowledge dear sir.

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 12:43 AM
Sure... hence the point I made on my first post in the thread. ;)

It should not be a never ending adventure, unless we are lost. To say it is a never ending cycle is to admit that we are loss. I admit that I am loss but very zealous looking for the way out of the wilderness of my personal forty year trek.

Joey Porter
Jul 21st 2008, 12:52 AM
Where is the scripture that states differently. I ask not out of offense but for want of knowledge dear sir.

Dear sir? I think that's a first for me!

Scripture as a whole shows us that God can not only lead us into temptation (as Christ Himself was led by the Spirit to be tempted in the wilderness), but He can and does also use evil and deceiving spirits to deceive people.

2 Chronicles 18

18 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing on his right and on his left. 19 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
"One suggested this, and another that. 20 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
" 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
21 " 'I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.' 22 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

This clearly shows us that even if God Himself does not lie or deceive people, He most certainly does use deceiving spirits for such purposes.

Yahweh is a very complex entity.

Joey Porter
Jul 21st 2008, 12:54 AM
Sure... hence the point I made on my first post in the thread. ;)

Well, until Yahweh pours out His spirit upon a group of people, to unite them in heart and mind, in these end times, we are all nothing more than men who "do what is right in their own eyes."

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 01:12 AM
Dear sir? I think that's a first for me!

Scripture as a whole shows us that God can not only lead us into temptation (as Christ Himself was led by the Spirit to be tempted in the wilderness), but He can and does also use evil and deceiving spirits to deceive people.

2 Chronicles 18

18 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing on his right and on his left. 19 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
"One suggested this, and another that. 20 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
" 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
21 " 'I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.' 22 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

This clearly shows us that even if God Himself does not lie or deceive people, He most certainly does use deceiving spirits for such purposes.

Yahweh is a very complex entity.

What is a first?

Anyway, I think we get God's soveriegnty confused with the actual agents of the particular acts. Nothing happens in this universe without God's approval. Hence, why the devil has to ask to tempt and attack people.

Mt 4:1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+4:1&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. You did not finish this Scripture. Man is tempted by the devil and his own carnal nature. God allows the tempting as a means of judgment or testing. Hence, our individual actions always serve His grand purpose. This is how bad things can work for our good because God is in control. Nothing can escape His control and will. Our will and that of the devil is still mysteriously subverted by the Will of God. This is how I understand temptation. Jas 1:13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=jas+1:13&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: \ Jas 1:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=jas+1:14&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Thanks for the response. I hope you do not mind me sharing with you as well.

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 01:13 AM
Well, until Yahweh pours out His spirit upon a group of people, to unite them in heart and mind, in these end times, we are all nothing more than men who "do what is right in their own eyes."


I can second this as it has already begun dear sir......... I don't quite understand it yet, but I see and hear the kingdom of God appraoching. I also hear this message within mostly cell oriented churches.

ProjectPeter
Jul 21st 2008, 10:55 AM
It should not be a never ending adventure, unless we are lost. To say it is a never ending cycle is to admit that we are loss. I admit that I am loss but very zealous looking for the way out of the wilderness of my personal forty year trek.It won't be a never ending cycle. Everything has an end. Just so happens that this cycle ain't going anywhere until Jesus comes back. Scripture is very clear on the state of the church on His return right? It isn't written that it's going to be all peace, love and tranquil feelings as we all embrace Rodney King's "Can't we just all get along" message. ;)

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 01:59 PM
It won't be a never ending cycle. Everything has an end. Just so happens that this cycle ain't going anywhere until Jesus comes back. Scripture is very clear on the state of the church on His return right? It isn't written that it's going to be all peace, love and tranquil feelings as we all embrace Rodney King's "Can't we just all get along" message. ;)


And we agree again Peter, that we will not voluntarily end this cycle by ourselve, hence God will do it by Himself. He has appointed trials and tribulations that will bring about unity out of necessity. Believers will be forced to do what they refuse to do because we are carnal and have not been perfected in our love. This is the meaning behind some of my post. Why I ask such tough and thought provoking questions.

Business as usual is about over. Our favorite topics that divide us will be irrelevant and of no importance. No one will care about the manner of baptism, speaking in tongues, and the such. People are going only going to care about what God is doing, what is His message, and who has the ears for God.

God is already preparing His church, the end time preparation has already begun. I have received several visions and prophetic words concerning this topic. The second half of the Fall Holy Festivals are coming to a head. The Atonement is upon us. God will no longer wink at our lack of love and unity. It is pee or get off the pot time.

He expects unity and He will get it. He will do as He did before. First, He will send His true prophets who will encounter and debate the false prophets. Then He will give them a message of repentance and return back to the Lord. He then calls the honest saints out from among the disobedient. Lastly, He stores His patterns, theology, and covenant with His people that they threw off.

ProjectPeter
Jul 21st 2008, 02:10 PM
And we agree again Peter, that we will not voluntarily end this cycle by ourselve, hence God will do it by Himself. He has appointed trials and tribulations that will bring about unity out of necessity. Believers will be forced to do what they refuse to do because we are carnal and have not been perfected in our love. This is the meaning behind some of my post. Why I ask such tough and thought provoking questions.

Business as usual is about over. Our favorite topics that divide us will be irrelevant and of no importance. No one will care about the manner of baptism, speaking in tongues, and the such. People are going only going to care about what God is doing, what is His message, and who has the ears for God.

God is already preparing His church, the end time preparation has already begun. I have received several visions and prophetic words concerning this topic. The second half of the Fall Holy Festivals are coming to a head. The Atonement is upon us. God will no longer wink at our lack of love and unity. It is pee or get off the pot time.

He expects unity and He will get it. He will do as He did before. First, He will send His true prophets who will encounter and debate the false prophets. Then He will give them a message of repentance and return back to the Lord. He then calls the honest saints out from among the disobedient. Lastly, He stores His patterns, theology, and covenant with His people that they threw off.
Where we differ I suppose... I don't believe that God has ever stopped those things. But just like with Israel (our best example)... there comes a time when the false seem to be in greater number than the real. That's the pattern of man. God's pattern will trump that when Christ returns to judge.

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 02:32 PM
Where we differ I suppose... I don't believe that God has ever stopped those things. But just like with Israel (our best example)... there comes a time when the false seem to be in greater number than the real. That's the pattern of man. God's pattern will trump that when Christ returns to judge.


This is true to the utmost degree regarding the increase of false prophets, both the intentional false prophet and the deceived false prophets. That is the part of the falling away. This is just how God judges His people. He allows the enemy to do the separating by afflicting the saints who are in a state of iniquity. Some will repent and of a come out from among the rest in a spiritual sense by returning to the patterns of God. Some will fall into even a greater deception. That will be the only to choices. Fall farther away or come nearer to God.

ProjectPeter
Jul 21st 2008, 02:36 PM
This is true to the utmost degree regarding the increase of false prophets, both the intentional false prophet and the deceived false prophets. That is the part of the falling away. This is just how God judges His people. He allows the enemy to do the separating by afflicting the saints who are in a state of iniquity. Some will repent and of a come out from among the rest in a spiritual sense by returning to the patterns of God. Some will fall into even a greater deception. That will be the only to choices. Fall farther away or come nearer to God.
He doesn't allow the enemy to do the separating at all. There will reapers that separate the wheat from the chaff come one day or the good fish from the bad fish... pick your parable.

Naturally there will be those that never left; those that repent and turn back to God; and then those that just figure God don't care so they continue on in their error.

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 02:40 PM
He doesn't allow the enemy to do the separating at all. There will reapers that separate the wheat from the chaff come one day or the good fish from the bad fish... pick your parable.

Naturally there will be those that never left; those that repent and turn back to God; and then those that just figure God don't care so they continue on in their error.


I did not mean in the last harvest sense. I was talking about how life has always separated the weak from the strong sense and the faithful from the unfaithful. I was a drill instructor, it was once my judge to do this. Hence, I understand that God will do the same by testing believings. Circumstances and the agenda of our enemies will be the instruments of our test.

grptinHisHand
Jul 21st 2008, 02:43 PM
from manichunter Fall farther away or come nearer to God.

My prayer is "May I come forever nearer to God! May I represent Him well and be the example He would have me be - that my life may be a witness to His love, mercy, grace, peace." :pray:

I pray that I will never judge myself by my own ideas, but against the Word of God, which is absolute truth.
g

ProjectPeter
Jul 21st 2008, 02:45 PM
I did not mean in the last harvest sense. I was talking about how life has always separated the weak from the strong sense and the faithful from the unfaithful. I was a drill instructor, it was once my judge to do this. Hence, I understand that God will do the same by testing believings. Circumstances and the agenda of our enemies will be the instruments of our test.
Sure... but then I think someone else already alluded to this... it isn't always the enemy. God will do it too. Testing ain't always tempting. ;)

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 02:50 PM
Sure... but then I think someone else already alluded to this... it isn't always the enemy. God will do it too. Testing ain't always tempting. ;)


True, but testing always provides us with a choice to be made between things.

ProjectPeter
Jul 21st 2008, 02:54 PM
Shoot... testing is for a reason no doubt. Another one of those patterns of God. :)

Mograce2U
Jul 21st 2008, 03:06 PM
One thing I find amazing is that the Lord left the natural nation of Israel with an established theology and doctrine. He only gave them one theology. It was evident that they got off course a few times by people doing right in their own eyes. They went apostate because they got away from the theology God gave them. Jesus revealed to the Pharisees and Sadducees that carnality was at the root of their factionalism and different theologies.

Here is the riddle. Why would the Lord come in person to establish a new spiritual people (Israel) and not leave them a theology and doctrine. According to the Second Covenant Scripture, Jesus did leave His people with one theology and doctrine straight from His mouth. So how did we go from one theology that was again given by God Himself to mutltiple and different theologies? I believe carnality is at work again and everyone is right in their own eyes.What happened to the Jews is bound to happen to us if we do the same.

(Heb 6:1-3 KJV) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, {2} Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. {3} And this will we do, if God permit.

If we put our focus upon the doctrines we have been given and lose our first love which is Christ, then we will end up doing what is right in our own eyes as well. Carnality & sin is always going to be the struggle if we don't learn to walk according to the Spirit and actually do the things scripture guides us into which bear fruit. Works which are born of the love of God are expressed in our love towards one another.

That is why the memorial we have been given is the Lord's table. So that our focus might remain upon His love for us. Then our discussions concerning baptisms and such, will be edifying and not devisive.

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 06:16 PM
It is hard for Christians to admit that the divisions of within Christianity are caused by sin. Our carnality is the root cause of our factionalism.

fewarechosen
Jul 21st 2008, 07:31 PM
It is hard for Christians to admit that the divisions of within Christianity are caused by sin. Our carnality is the root cause of our factionalism.

this point i have to agree with

we havent pulled our own mote out yet and that mote is sin

Joey Porter
Jul 21st 2008, 07:51 PM
What is a first?

Anyway, I think we get God's soveriegnty confused with the actual agents of the particular acts. Nothing happens in this universe without God's approval. Hence, why the devil has to ask to tempt and attack people.

Mt 4:1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+4:1&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. You did not finish this Scripture. Man is tempted by the devil and his own carnal nature. God allows the tempting as a means of judgment or testing. Hence, our individual actions always serve His grand purpose. This is how bad things can work for our good because God is in control. Nothing can escape His control and will. Our will and that of the devil is still mysteriously subverted by the Will of God. This is how I understand temptation. Jas 1:13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=jas+1:13&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: \ Jas 1:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=jas+1:14&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Thanks for the response. I hope you do not mind me sharing with you as well.

Being referred to as "dear sir," I believe, was a first.

I don't mind you sharing anything with me.

It is true that God Himself does not tempt. There is a tempter who carries that out. But it certainly is true that He can lead us into temptation, though He Himself does not tempt us.

Christ was "led of the Spirit" into the wilderness. Who was in the wilderness? The tempter! Christ was led into temptation by the Spirit, though the Spirit did not tempt Him.

This is also why, in the Lord's prayer, we pray "Lead us not into temptation." Because it is within His capability to lead us into temptation.

manichunter
Jul 23rd 2008, 05:36 AM
If sin is the root cause to the division in the general christian community then what could said about christians. That we operating in our carnality, but we believe that we are spiritual. Division, confusion, and strife does not result from spirit and truth.

NightWatchman
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:02 AM
Whomever reads the Bible can draw their own unique conclusion, brand them as (allegedly) teachings flowing from God's word and therefore the correct and unassailable "truth"....

As a result, as all believe they are "Bible based" (based upon their own reading of it, of course) they refuse to use any objective standard to guage whether their beliefs are actually consistent with the Bible.

From 1517 to the present, tens of thousands of theologically diverse denominations sprang up. What happened in 1517? The advancement of the idea that the Scriptures could be read by an individual to draw his own conclusions without any knowledge and/or consideration for other people or - more importantly - without any knowledge and/or of historical Christian theology or practice.

A few questions:

Is anything wrong with reading the Bible for myself?
What is the "objective Standard" that you speak of?
What "Historical Christian theology or practice" are you referring to?

I believe it is always good to share what I read with others, in case I am in error.

seamus414
Jul 23rd 2008, 11:55 AM
If sin is the root cause to the division in the general christian community then what could said about christians. That we operating in our carnality, but we believe that we are spiritual. Division, confusion, and strife does not result from spirit and truth.


I think expecting the wheat to be seperated from the tares on Earth is not a reasonable expectation. They will always be comingled until that Last Great Day.

seamus414
Jul 23rd 2008, 12:02 PM
A few questions:

Is anything wrong with reading the Bible for myself?
What is the "objective Standard" that you speak of?
What "Historical Christian theology or practice" are you referring to?

I believe it is always good to share what I read with others, in case I am in error.


There is, of course, nothing wrong with reading the Bible yourself. There may be something wrong with reading it "for yourself" as this assumes that you, personally, have some sort of authority to determine what the Bible "means for/to you". The Bible teaches the same things to all readers and nothing is unique to you or anyone else who reads it (of course, something may speak to your situation louder or more significantly than someone else's - I am not speaking to that sort of thing).

The objective standard is historical Christain theology and practice. The Bible must be read consistently with historic Christian theology and practice. As someone much greater than I said: "securus judicat orbis terrarum" ("the verdict of the world is conclusive"). The witness of the Body of Believers regarding the Bible is more conclusive than what an individual (or even a denomination) believes the Bible teaches.

Brother Mark
Jul 23rd 2008, 12:03 PM
If sin is the root cause to the division in the general christian community then what could said about christians. That we operating in our carnality, but we believe that we are spiritual. Division, confusion, and strife does not result from spirit and truth.

Is it always sin that causes disagreements on doctrine? I would agree that sin causes "division". I would also agree that only through pride comes contention.

But there is also the concept of maturity and seeing through a glass darkly.

1 Cor 13:11-12

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
KJV

As we mature, our understanding grows. But with maturity, we begin to understand that we see through a glass darkly and that we do not fully understand. knowing that, there will always be room for others to disagree with us in some areas. Beliefs will lead us to pack together with those of like mind. But that doesn't mean we have to be "divided" from our brothers that believe differently.

Brother Mark
Jul 23rd 2008, 12:05 PM
There is, of course, nothing wrong with reading the Bible yourself. There may be something wrong with reading it "for yourself" as this assumes that you, personally, have some sort of authority to determine what the Bible "means for/to you". The Bible teaches the same things to all readers and nothing is unique to you or anyone else who reads it (of course, something may speak to your situation louder or more significantly than someone else's - I am not speaking to that sort of thing).

The objective standard is historical Christain theology and practice. The Bible must be read consistently with historic Christian theology and practice. As someone much greater than I said: "securus judicat orbis terrarum" ("the verdict of the world is conclusive"). The witness of the Body of Believers regarding the Bible is more conclusive than what an individual (or even a denomination) believes the Bible teaches.

I understand the sentiment. There can be danger in going down a path of widely rejected doctrine in scripture. However, let's keep in mind it was historical theology that was partly to blame for blinding the Jews to Christ.

seamus414
Jul 23rd 2008, 12:16 PM
I understand the sentiment. There can be danger in going down a path of widely rejected doctrine in scripture. However, let's keep in mind it was historical theology that was partly to blame for blinding the Jews to Christ.


Indeed, there is certainly a danger but I would think if something is "widely rejected" the bulk of Christians would not attempt to accept it. I believe Jesus was being very serious when he said that the Gates of Hell will never prevail against his Church. I think we ought to take seriously that the CHurch is Christ's own body. Therefore, I think we should have some assurance that Christ is actively engaged in preserving his church.

I have to think about your comment on the Jews and get back to you.

Brother Mark
Jul 23rd 2008, 12:26 PM
Indeed, there is certainly a danger but I would think if something is "widely rejected" the bulk of Christians would not attempt to accept it. I believe Jesus was being very serious when he said that the Gates of Hell will never prevail against his Church. I think we ought to take seriously that the CHurch is Christ's own body. Therefore, I think we should have some assurance that Christ is actively engaged in preserving his church.

I would tend to agree with this statement. But I would also point out that sometimes, the preservation came about through the challenging of "church" held practices. IOW, what man calls the church may not always be the church. Sometimes the church is only a remnant that God preserves. During the inquisitions and dark ages, you would be hard pressed to convince me it was Christ's church that was in control and the cause of those atrocities.


I have to think about your comment on the Jews and get back to you.

Fair enough. It can lead to some interesting conversations.

manichunter
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:20 PM
I would tend to agree with this statement. But I would also point out that sometimes, the preservation came about through the challenging of "church" held practices. IOW, what man calls the church may not always be the church. Sometimes the church is only a remnant that God preserves. During the inquisitions and dark ages, you would be hard pressed to convince me it was Christ's church that was in control and the cause of those atrocities.



Fair enough. It can lead to some interesting conversations.

I want to know as well......

manichunter
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:57 PM
Is it always sin that causes disagreements on doctrine? I would agree that sin causes "division". I would also agree that only through pride comes contention.

But there is also the concept of maturity and seeing through a glass darkly.

1 Cor 13:11-12

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
KJV

As we mature, our understanding grows. But with maturity, we begin to understand that we see through a glass darkly and that we do not fully understand. knowing that, there will always be room for others to disagree with us in some areas. Beliefs will lead us to pack together with those of like mind. But that doesn't mean we have to be "divided" from our brothers that believe differently.

Why do you think sin causes division regarding the denominations. Is it because of strife naturally in us or each man wanting his own glory. What? I will study why people want their own religious prospective and ideology.

Brother Mark
Jul 23rd 2008, 08:06 PM
Why do you think sin causes division regarding the denominations. Is it because of strife naturally in us or each man wanting his own glory. What? I will study why people want their own religious prospective and ideology.

Well first, I am not convinced that all demoninations are divided. For instance, I am in the US but I am not divided from my brothers in Africa or Europe though I worship in a different place. It would be a mistake to say I am divided from my Baptist brethren or my pentacostal brethren for I am not. I am a member of the body of Christ and as such, am united with them. Even though we may disagree on many things, that does not mean we cannot be unified.

Having said that, there is division when their is a seeking of our own pleasure.

James 4:1-3

4 What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. And you are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures.
NASB

I suppose there might be more. Some, filled with pride, desire to be lifted up. Others, like the Corinthian church, fall in love with leaders and conform to their leader instead of their leader's preaching.

But let's not say that all doctrinal differences cause division. For that is not always the case. Also, we must leave room for folks to grow in grace as did our Lord Jesus.

tgallison
Jul 23rd 2008, 09:18 PM
Indeed, there is certainly a danger but I would think if something is "widely rejected" the bulk of Christians would not attempt to accept it. I believe Jesus was being very serious when he said that the Gates of Hell will never prevail against his Church. I think we ought to take seriously that the CHurch is Christ's own body. Therefore, I think we should have some assurance that Christ is actively engaged in preserving his church.

seamus414 greetings

Romans 9:27 "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:"

Romans 11:4 "But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."

Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in they name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

terrell

seamus414
Jul 24th 2008, 02:51 AM
seamus414 greetings

Romans 9:27 "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:"

Romans 11:4 "But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."

Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in they name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

terrell


These are just verses without context or commontary. In other words, quoting random verses does not accomplish much. What is their application to the issue about which we are speaking?

NightWatchman
Jul 24th 2008, 04:36 AM
The objective standard is historical Christain theology and practice. The Bible must be read consistently with historic Christian theology and practice. As someone much greater than I said: "securus judicat orbis terrarum" ("the verdict of the world is conclusive"). The witness of the Body of Believers regarding the Bible is more conclusive than what an individual (or even a denomination) believes the Bible teaches.

I understand what you say regarding the Bible's interpretation requiring the community of believers.

But what is the "historical Christian theology and practice" you are referring to?

My heart's Desire
Jul 24th 2008, 07:07 AM
Why don't Christians have the same theology?

What is the matter? I believe it is carnality. I believe carnality has been disguising itself as spirit, hence every man is right in his own eyes.

I'd have to think about because I have the same question. The reason being that God gave His Word to us so that We would know and He gives the Holy Spirit to open eyes to see so what is the problem? I don't know! Carnality in some form MUST be coloring our preception either that or we go to man for our theology when we don't understand instead of relying on the Holy Spirit. Too many Christians and too many theologies to judge the reason why! I don't know! We THINK we should know and agree at that. If truth is truth then it has to be the only truth right? Pilate asked Jesus "What is truth"?

tgallison
Jul 24th 2008, 10:37 AM
These are just verses without context or commontary. In other words, quoting random verses does not accomplish much. What is their application to the issue about which we are speaking?

Half the people in the US call themselves Christians. Do you believe half the people in the US are saved?

If the bulk of those that claim to be Christians are not, should we follow them?

Those verses have both context and commentary. The Word speaks to me, doesn't it you?

Victor
Jul 24th 2008, 12:15 PM
I think it's because there are so many different nationalities, cultures. Let's take South Africa for instance, we get English, Afrikaans, German, Dutch, several African people just to name but a few. Now lets look in 1 of them
1st Afrikaaners - created their language from several different lauguages - mostly from the dutch, they brought their beliefs with them - after many years they inter married, bringing a new culture into theirs, thus a new church was formed, not to change the bible but to make understandable to all conserned.
The only problem is that all churches believe they are the ones that are correct and only they are going to heaven.
Even though all churches read from the same bible and pray to the same God.
Just my 2 cents worth...er if that

seamus414
Jul 24th 2008, 12:38 PM
tgallison
Half the people in the US call themselves Christians. Do you believe half the people in the US are saved?

How does this question relate any of the issues raised in this thread?

If the bulk of those that claim to be Christians are not, should we follow them?

Not one person in this thread suggested this. Why are you asking?

Those verses have both context and commentary.

What is it? Again, random copying/pasting verses does not mean very much. What is their applicability to the topic of the thread?

The Word speaks to me, doesn't it you?

Yes, but this is not the issue at hand.

tgallison
Jul 24th 2008, 05:59 PM
How does this question relate any of the issues raised in this thread?

Not one person in this thread suggested this. Why are you asking?

What is it? Again, random copying/pasting verses does not mean very much. What is their applicability to the topic of the thread?

Yes, but this is not the issue at hand.

The head of the Church does not sit in Rome, He sits in Heaven. The Church is the individual believers, and Christ is the head.

What I heard you say was that we should follow the majority, when it is only a minority that is saved.

seamus414
Jul 24th 2008, 07:39 PM
tgallison
The head of the Church does not sit in Rome, He sits in Heaven. The Church is the individual believers, and Christ is the head.

While I totally agree with this, what does the Bishop of Rome have to do with this conversation?

What I heard you say was that we should follow the majority, when it is only a minority that is saved.

I never said "the majority" as if taking a poll on a street corner. The question is: what does the voice of the body of believers say through out history. Following their voice - which is guided by the Holy Spirit - is the surest way to ensure your reading of Scripture is correct.

Mograce2U
Jul 24th 2008, 08:08 PM
tgallison
What I heard you say was that we should follow the majority, when it is only a minority that is saved.

I never said "the majority" as if taking a poll on a street corner. The question is: what does the voice of the body of believers say through out history. Following their voice - which is guided by the Holy Spirit - is the surest way to ensure your reading of Scripture is correct.Except for the fact that a little leaven can leaven the whole lump. ;)

After 2000 years of church history contaminated with not only the errors of the papacy but also the reformers (who didn't actually reform the papacy at all...), it seems we understand little of what was first given to the apostles whom we know did speak by the Holy Spirit.

Which is no doubt why the Lord's Table is where we are able to retain our focus upon Christ, else the Church would have gone the way of apostasy long ago. Our theology may not be as pure as it could be, but our hope should be!

EaglesWINGS911
Jul 24th 2008, 08:09 PM
I think differences in theology are unavoidable, they were unavoidable in the early days of the Apostles. It's rather sad, but it's the way things are. People are naturally going to form their beliefs (whether true or false) on the way they interpret what the Bible says. And thus, other people are going to be inclined to gather with like minded believers to worship and fellowship.
I think the true carnality is when we start attacking and acting hateful towards our brothers and sisters in Christ. Not that we should never debate or share our beliefs...but it might be wise to agree to disagree on those portions where we differ in our beliefs and capitalize instead on our common beliefs.
*Note* I make a distinction between Christian denominations and other religions, such as Mormonism, JW,etc.