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manichunter
Jul 20th 2008, 07:51 AM
Will the Church of Jesus face a future judgment by God?

I say yes, Scripture says in 1Pe 4:17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1pe+4:17&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Why does anyone face judgment? Two reasons.
First, judgment removes impurities and transgression out of the character of our soul. This is done when a person does voluntarily seek change on their own. God takes it upon Himself to appoint a season in which He takes things out of our character in order to prepare and promote us for the next season of our life. Jas 1:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=jas+1:2&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en)-4- My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,, 3knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

This is the sort of trial encountered by Abraham, Joseph, Moses, David, Job, the Apostles that lead to their promotions and preparations for the next function and season in their life. The saints of today are not exempt from the purifications made by ordained trials God requires to promote us. This can be called the judgment of purification.

Secondly, judgment is God's attempt to get His people out of the state of sin. God either tries to bring His people to repentance and get them to return to His ways, or He allows judgment to take them into captivity. He then either puts them on the shelf as a vessel of dishonor or destroys them like a heathen. This believer does not make an honest attempt to judge them self. They make little to know effort to change their understanding, lifestyle, and state. This can be called the judgment against iniquity or lawlessness.

1Co 11:31 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+11:31&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.

Heb 12:6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=heb+12:6&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."

Re 2:16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+2:16&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fightagainstthem with the sword of My mouth.

I say these things because the Lord has been showing me, preparing me, and about to promote me to some things that could either cause fear or joy in most saints. There is a reason why judgment always comes upon the people of God first. Simply, it is God's pattern and He changes not. He has always followed this pattern of judging His people first, then the nations secondly. However within the judging of His people, there are various stages and types of judgment.

First, when God judges His people, He always gives a warning before judging His people as stated by Eze 3:17 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eze+3:17&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

Secondly, when judgment comes upon His people, a remnant is always set aside becomes they have proven themselves faithful and repentive. They are judged collectively but their judgment works for their good and the good of those to follow. This remnant is a type of first fruit for the next harvest of God's people. They are given instructions by God and prophecy concerning what to do after the period of captivity is lifted. Hence they are prepared for the judgment and trials to come.
Isa 1:9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=isa+1:9&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Isa 37:31 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=isa+37:31&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward:
This is illustrated from Noah and Daniel to the believing disciples of Jesus.

Jer 29:1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=jer+29:1&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon;

Thirdly, when judgment comes upon God's people, he takes the unfaithful into captivity with a sentence of death. They are treated as a gentile sense they acted like a gentile. They face the same consequences of the heathen. God always judged Israel by a gentile nation, then turned around and judged the nation that captured Israel.
Ho 8:8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ho+8:8&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.

Lastly, God judges the gentile nations for their sins and rebellion against Him.

Now lets get to the point that the Spirit taught me. The time is near that judgment must begin at the house of the Lord. House denotes and refers to the people within a household not any physical building. The bride of Christ must be made ready if she is to be without spot, wrinkle, and blemish. The first fruit saints are being made ready to deliver the last message meant especially for the tribulation preparation.

Who does God always send before His returns? Elijah's who prepare His way. The message has been and still is repent for the King is coming. It will be no different in the future. God wants the lamps full of oil and His people woke for His appearing. The clock says that the Day of Atonement is near.

The period of atonement is about to start before the coming tribulation. This will be the period that the judgment of purification perfects those saints that fall upon the rock.

After the trumpets start blowing the period of atonement is up. It will be too late to get the special revelation, power, awareness, and calling for the end time ministry needed during the tribulation. End time ministry will not be business as usual. The time of playing church will be over. Those who are prepared will be ready. Those who are not ready will go into captivity by the judgment of iniquity.

The unprepared will have the rock fall on them because since they did not judge themselves, repent, or heed the message of preparation. This period of judgment regarding iniquity will be doing the first three and a half years of the tribulation.
Re 13:10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+13:10&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Re 13:7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+13:7&translation=kjv&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) -And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

During the period of atonement, the Body of Christ will undergo a cooperate judgment of purification. Some will submit to the judgment and some will not submit to the judgment. Then those who would not submit to the judgment of purification will under the judgment of iniquity along with the gentile nations in the tribulations.

What do you think if you have read this post?

Redneck Charger
Jul 20th 2008, 09:01 AM
I don't think the church itself will be judged.. but the people in that church.. A church is a building.. it's the people who make that building.. :rolleyes:

Vhayes
Jul 20th 2008, 02:47 PM
I agree with Redneck Charger on this. I will add I think "teachers" will be held more accountable than others:
James 3
1 - Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

ServantofTruth
Jul 20th 2008, 03:04 PM
Agreeing with my friends, individuals will be judged and those in authority over the sheep a closer judgement.

Denominations/ churches are made up of flawed, sinful, humans - like all of us, who agree with more or less of what is taught there.

It is wonderful that God knows us better than we know ourselves - and is 100% righteous.

Love



BIG SofTy :hug:

Eaglenester
Jul 20th 2008, 03:54 PM
I don't think the church itself will be judged.. but the people in that church.. A church is a building.. it's the people who make that building.. :rolleyes:

A "church" may have come to mean a building in modern Americanized christianity - but that is not the Scriptural meaning.

Ekklesia means the called out ones
The true church is the body of Messiah.

"church" is not where one goes, or what one does at a particular set time - though unfortunately , to way way to many, it is what church is to them.
A wrong perception that has become reality - churchianity.

threebigrocks
Jul 20th 2008, 05:00 PM
Judgement comes to God's house first, His church.

Daniel 9


12"Thus He has confirmed His words which He had spoken against us and against our rulers who ruled us, to bring on us great calamity; for under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what was done to Jerusalem.

13"As it is written in the law of Moses, all this calamity has come on us; yet we have not sought the favor of the LORD our God by turning from our iniquity and giving attention to Your truth.
14"Therefore the LORD has kept the calamity in store and brought it on us; for the LORD our God is righteous with respect to all His deeds which He has done, but we have not obeyed His voice.
15"And now, O Lord our God, who have brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand and have made a name for Yourself, as it is this day--we have sinned, we have been wicked.
16"O Lord, in accordance with all Your righteous acts, let now Your anger and Your wrath turn away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; for because of our sins and the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people have become a reproach to all those around us. 17"So now, our God, listen to the prayer of Your servant and to his supplications, and for Your sake, O Lord, let Your face shine on Your desolate sanctuary.


God chastens and smites those whom He loves in order to turn them back to Him. Over and over and over again throughout scripture judgement comes to God's people. When they turn from God they are punished. When they are with God, protected. God works through those who are His. Judgement only came to the enemies of God when the people of God were walking in His ways.

In Daniel 9, Daniel stands up for the people in intercession for the wrong they have done, having gone against God. Judgement comes to God's house first. Even looking at Revelation and who is drawn up to Christ in the clouds - judgement was then in who had withstood the ways of the world and remained faithful to Him.

ananias
Jul 20th 2008, 09:02 PM
There are Biblical types of the judgment of the church/es at the end of this age: Whenever God's people would not heed his call to repent of their waywardness, the innocent suffered with the guilty.

Of all the Jews in Babylon, only Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego (the faithful remnant) refused to bow down and worship "the image of the beast" (Danile chapter 3). What happened to them? They were thrown by the antichrist (Nebuchadnezzar) into the burning, fiery furnace ("the great tribulation of the saints).

The Lord Jesus Christ remained present with this faithful remnant IN THE MIDST OF THEM while they were in this purifying fire, and afterward they were told,

"... Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, servants of the Most High God, come forth and come here. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth from the middle of the fire." (Dan.3: 26).

"And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them." (Rev.11: 12).

The sheep must be separated from the goats, otherwise the goats will be removed from the world and taken up with the sheep.

Solomon's temple was destroyed by fire because of the waywardness of God's people and their refusal to repent. The New Testament temple may be "destroyed", for a brief period of the world's history, by the fire of great tribulation of the saints - thanks to Todd Bentley, the Emerging Church, "spiritual experiences" and an abundance of counterfeit miracles, dreams, prophecies, visions, et al.

"Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds." (Rev.2: 22).

ananias.

Bick
Jul 21st 2008, 12:21 AM
Will the Church of Jesus face a future judgment by God?

MY COMMENTS: By "church" I asssume you mean the "church--body of Christ", that is, all believers who God calls to be in this special body.

While we who are the called body of Christ, whose future is in the heavenlies, are assured of our salvation, nevertheless, we will give account of our deeds, as believers, at the judgment seat (bema--Greek) of Christ in the heavenlies.

Romans 13:10-12, "For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, 'As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.' So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." AV.

I UNDERSTAND THIS TO BE GAIN OR LOSS OF REWARDS, FOR "JUDGING" IS NEUTRAL WHERE BOTH GOOD AND BAD DEEDS WILL BE SHOWN.

Also, see 2 Cor. 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether good or bad." AV.

This seat of judging is not to be confused with Christ on His great white throne, described in Rev. 20:11ff.

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 12:28 AM
God has always prepared His chosen vessels for the offices He ordained for them. He has a pattern of judging people by the purifying of their character, motives, and affections. These things have to be refined by fire. Do the saints of today think that they are better than Moses 40 years in the deserts of His father in law, David thirteen years in the wilderness, and Joseph's years of slavery which prepared all these saints for their calling and duties.

Now the times of the end is upon us, which Jesus says will be a time like no other. How can we think that no preparation will be needed. It will not be business and going to church as usual. The preparation is upon us now.................

God will move against every individual believer in judgment for either of the two types of judgment depending on the individual believer's response to God. God has to prepare His bride for His return. His bride is not ready as I type. This requires a refining by fire which burns away the adulterous heart, earthly treasures, and idols of worship from believers. Then God can restore His bride with His end time message and empowerment. However, there will be some who resist God and remain sleep. These shall face the same judgment of lawlessness that the unbelieving sinful nations face.

The call for repentance is upon. The Elijah's are upon us. The king of kings is coming to receive His bride for the wedding feast.

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 12:30 AM
Will the Church of Jesus face a future judgment by God?

MY COMMENTS: By "church" I asssume you mean the "church--body of Christ", that is, all believers who God calls to be in this special body.

While we who are the called body of Christ, whose future is in the heavenlies, are assured of our salvation, nevertheless, we will give account of our deeds, as believers, at the judgment seat (bema--Greek) of Christ in the heavenlies.

Romans 13:10-12, "For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, 'As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.' So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." AV.

I UNDERSTAND THIS TO BE GAIN OR LOSS OF REWARDS, FOR "JUDGING" IS NEUTRAL WHERE BOTH GOOD AND BAD DEEDS WILL BE SHOWN.

Also, see 2 Cor. 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether good or bad." AV.

This seat of judging is not to be confused with Christ on His great white throne, described in Rev. 20:11ff.

Not that judgment, but the ones that we face on this side of creation. Whatever a man sows he reaps kind. We are tried by fire that we might be made a mature servant kind.

ananias
Jul 21st 2008, 11:46 AM
In my previous post, I said that when Solomon’s temple was destroyed by fire because God’s people refused to repent of their waywardness, the “innocent” suffered with the guilty.

But in truth, no-one is totally innocent. If we were, we would not need to be refined by the fire of great tribulation before the return of our Lord. If the Lord’s bride must be purified before He comes for her, then it means there’s something, or probably more than one thing, that we need to be purified from (in my case, I know there are).

And with regard to all this, I believe that it was for OUR sakes, and the sake of all Christians who would ever had to face terrible tribulation for the sake of their testimony to Christ and/or faithfulness to the truth (such as in the days of the Reformation), that He allowed what happened to Peter:

Peter said to the Lord, “Though I should die with You, yet I WILL not deny You. All the disciples also said the same.” (Mat.26: 35).

Peter trusted in himself – yet Jesus exhorts us to “Watch therefore, praying in every season that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things which shall occur, and to stand before the Son of Man.” (Luk.26: 41).

“Watch and pray that you enter not into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” (Mat.26: 41).

We need to ask God to keep us from falling. We need to ask God for strength of character, faith, courage, HIS comfort, and to keep our eyes fixed on the hope of the glory that awaits us when the Lord Jesus Christ is revealed, when he comes in the clouds of heaven.

We need to NOT think about, and agonize, and be anxious about our circumstances and the things going on around us, but rather to “look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near.”

“And when these things begin to happen, then look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near.” (Luk.21: 28).

“But they have no root in themselves, but are temporary. Afterward when affliction or persecution arises for the Word's sake, they are immediately offended.” (Mar.4: 17).

“Then they will deliver you up to be afflicted and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended, and will betray one another, and will hate one another. And many false prophets will rise and deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many will become cold.” (Mat.24: 9-12).

John the Baptist was languishing in prison for righteousness’ sake. What was Jesus doing about it? NOTHING. So John sent his disciples to ask Jesus, “… Are You he who should come, or do we look for another?” (Mat.11: 3).

Jesus said, in effect, “Go and tell John about the works you’ve seen me do, and tell him, “… blessed is he, whoever shall not be offended in Me.” (Mat.11: 6).

“Truly I say to you, Among those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater one than John the Baptist. But the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.” (Mat.11: 11).

It doesn’t matter what great work we have done for the Lord – our works do not absolve us from tribulation for the sake of His name, or for the sake of righteousness. It doesn’t matter how faithful we have been, or consider ourselves to have been – JOHN THE BAPTIST WAS FAITHFUL – AND HOW! He gave up His whole life for the coming Messiah.

When Jesus seems to be doing NOTHING about our plight, we mustn’t become offended – we must simply ask God to keep us from falling, not trusting in ourselves, “And when these things begin to happen, then look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near.” (Luk.21: 28).

I think it’s time now for someone with good enough leadership capabilities to start a “tribulation preparation” private group in these Forums – and I think it’s time that we who know what’s coming, started loving and supporting one another. Manichunter, can you help with a "tribulation preparation private group?

Ananias.

jewel4Christ
Jul 21st 2008, 12:16 PM
Yes, correction/judgement, begins at the house of God.

I don't see it as a judgement of whether or not one is saved or not, by head knowledge, but a judgement, that God has in place from the beginning. Whatsoever we sow, shall we reap..in both the physical and spiritual sense.

If we are truly born again, He leads us daily to a renewing of our minds, and I don't believe any true believer ever reaches a point where he/she does not need a continual renewing/correcting...but, God allows us to reap what we sow, in order to teach us things.

There does seem to be a mindset in the last days, that would think otherwise, as we read about in the book of revelation, where God shows us the "whore" whom sits as a queen, thinking pridefully that they do not need anything, and God rebukes them thoroughly and tells them they are even naked...because of their blind mindset...but, they are still God's people, and they are still loved by God,. and, He corrects, chastens, every son that He has.

I think pride is one of the biggest sins, and most likely why the church will be corrected through the tribulation, along with the world, whom will reap destruction, lest they repent.

There is an old saying....pride before the fall.

I think it will be true in that pride is what will cause the fall of babylon.


Everyone will reap what they themselves sow...both physically and spiritually...and, this world, that was destined to fall, will do so, because God will not be mocked...so, we have a choice to either be among the persecuted, or to be a persecutor. The choice is our own.

I don't see God being mocked...by mere men.

That is why it is my sincere hope and desire to seek God's will, and not my own...which would be my advice to all men...for, to scatter is not what God had intended for His people, but today, we live in a time where scattering is more acceptable, and gathering into God's true will is evil spoken of.


peaceandlove,

janet

ravi4u2
Jul 21st 2008, 02:49 PM
His bride is not ready as I type.His Bride has been ready for about 2000 years now. In fact, the Bride calls with the Spirit, "Come!".

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 03:12 PM
His Bride has been ready for about 2000 years now. In fact, the Bride calls with the Spirit, "Come!".

The Church is not ready for the Lords return. The state of the Church says differently. We are not united, under the same convictions, or of one theology. The prepared who wait with their lamps full of oil say come. However, that is not the rule, but exception right now. Most saints are doing the same things gentiles are doing. Marrying, keeping up with the Jones, and looking for their blessing instead of the blesser.

Christ said it will be like Sodom before His return. Sodom was in such a state of sin that God had to end it. Hence why God is returning. Sin will be so bad once again that God will have to end all flesh in judgment for sin. The saints can get caught up in this if they do not start repenting and preparing now.

keck553
Jul 21st 2008, 03:21 PM
I agree the "church" is not ready. A lot of churches I visit seem more like an Amway convention / emotional orgy than the body of Messiah gathering to worship Him.

And I still haven't found anywhere in the bible where it says to 'go to church on Sunday'. All the convocations I see actually mandated by God are on Holy days, and 1st Century synagoues like the ones Jesus read Torah in and taught in were not at all like today's churches.

I wonder if today's churches have replaced some men's roles as priests? I don't mean intentionally, but there seems to be a lack of Christian men assuming the roles God gave them responsibility for.

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 03:22 PM
I agree the "church" is not ready. A lot of churches I visit seem more like an Amway convention than the body of Messiah.

What do you mean by Amyway conventions.

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 03:40 PM
Where is the honesty of the saints. Over a hundred hits, but not at least fifty votes. This can determine what a saints world view is. Whether they think the Bride is ready or needs to prepared. I was curious as to what others thought.

keck553
Jul 21st 2008, 03:44 PM
What do you mean by Amyway conventions.

Typo. I meant "Amway". They have 'motivational speakers' that work the audience up in an emotional frenzy.

keck553
Jul 21st 2008, 03:45 PM
Where is the honesty of the saints. Over a hundred hits, but not at least fifty votes. This can determine what a saints world view is. Whether they think the Bride is ready or needs to prepared. I was curious as to what others thought.

I voted. You probably can guess what it was

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 21st 2008, 05:21 PM
A born again Christian will undergo refining, trials and testing.. he/she will undergo the chastisement of Jesus the Christ.. I've been thru that.. if a person is without chastisement then 'illigitamatecy" is evident and ur not a son or daughter...I've also been thru the refiners fire in the past and I"m sure there is more to come..


Born Again believers will stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ.. literally Christ Himself to recieve their rewards for what they have done in their bodies...

Trials and testing are always going to happen..

God refines His people and their works by fire.. and if any mans work abide.. He shall recieve a reward.. If any mans work is not of Him .. it will burn away.. yet he/she shall be saved... Paul talks directly about this..

His 'true Church' is found in His Body and is His Body, which is Redeemed by His precious blood poured out on that bloody tree.., The Only True and Living God today.. the One who was dead but is now alive forevermore.. Jesus the Christ who is God in the flesh....

His Body is not defined by wood, mortar, brick walls, divisions, etc... Some have been led to believe this but if you were taken into Heaven you would not find this group over there or that group over here.. or vice versa.. there will be no divisions in Heaven......

In Heaven you'll find Blood bought Saints, purchased and ransomed by His redeeming Grace and Mercy done only by Him only thru His Righteouss work at the Cross...

these not defined by divsions or certains names or doctrines.. but by His Saving Grace and Mercy. Those He has known and those whom the Father has given Him.......since before the foundation of the World.


So yes God does and will judge a born again Christians actions and works...... but its not the 'wrath' or 'judgement' that He pours out on the heathen or wicked.........



chastisement , refining thru trials and struggles is what the Bible tells us believers will undergo...

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 05:27 PM
A born again Christian will undergo refining, trials and testing.. he/she will undergo the chastisement of Jesus the Christ.. I've been thru that.. if a person is without chastisement then 'illigitamatecy" is evident and ur not a son or daughter...I've also been thru the refiners fire in the past and I"m sure there is more to come..


Born Again believers will stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ.. literally Christ Himself to recieve their rewards for what they have done in their bodies...

Trials and testing are always going to happen..

God refines His people and their works by fire.. and if any mans work abide.. He shall recieve a reward.. If any mans work is not of Him .. it will burn away.. yet he/she shall be saved... Paul talks directly about this..

His 'true Church' is found in His Body and is His Body, which is Redeemed by His precious blood poured out on that bloody tree.., The Only True and Living God today.. the One who was dead but is now alive forevermore.. Jesus the Christ who is God in the flesh....

His Body is not defined by wood, mortar, brick walls, divisions, etc... Some have been led to believe this but if you were taken into Heaven you would not find this group over there or that group over here.. or vice versa.. there will be no divisions in Heaven......

In Heaven you'll find Blood bought Saints, purchased and ransomed by His redeeming Grace and Mercy done only by Him only thru His Righteouss work at the Cross...

these not defined by divsions or certains names or doctrines.. but by His Saving Grace and Mercy. Those He has known and those whom the Father has given Him.......since before the foundation of the World.


So yes God does and will judge a born again Christians actions and works...... but its not the 'wrath' or 'judgement' that He pours out on the heathen or wicked.........



chastisement , refining thru trials and struggles is what the Bible tells us believers will undergo...

I to know of the refiner's fire that heats up and sanctify our souls personaly. However, the Lord has shared with me that the believer can face the same fire of judgment against sin if they refuse to repent and flee from the presence of sin.

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 21st 2008, 05:31 PM
I to know of the refiner's fire that heats up and sanctify our souls personaly. However, the Lord has shared with me that the believer can face the same fire of judgment against sin if they refuse to repent and flee from the presence of sin.


Im curious.. what do you believe the 'true' body of Christ to be? Just a question... for you....

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 21st 2008, 05:35 PM
I'd like to know also if as a 'son' you have undergone the Chastisement of Jesus the Christ.. just curious..

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 05:59 PM
I'd like to know also if as a 'son' you have undergone the Chastisement of Jesus the Christ.. just curious..

I go here first and say I could stand to undergo more given that I feel like I need to change even more for God to use me in the coming season. I have hit rock bottom twice. A complete lost of everything, and I find it goes rougher for me when I fight against it and do not voluntarily surrender to the chatisement.

I first went through this in the 90's, but in my immaturity I did not understand it or respond properly to it at all. I was completely taken captive by the Lord as I enlisted into the army. I stripped me of everything materially and literally issued me everything in my possession. I was release later when I obeyed God to get out and go back home to the church He required me to work in. It was that simple, God released me from my Babylon and let me back into my promise land.

However, God was not done yet. I had a few problems to include my now ex-wife who was not saved, eventhough she claimed to be saved. I thought she was at one time, but it even became apparent to me after a while that other more mature saints noticed all along. She was ultra religious but had no heart for God. Well, I did it again. I found myself following this women back into sin that I still had in me as well.

God allowed me an out when she was caught in adultery, but I kept the marriage and forgave her. I should have took this out, but I had misplaced compassion and codependency issues that God had to work out of me. Two years later she started the same behavior, but this time I let go by herself into sin. She eventually left me as I now my stand with Christ was to demanding for her. She planned her leaving me in stealth. When she left, she took everything and I again hit the rock bottom. I went into such an extreme amount of debt that I am still paying seven years later. However, God continued to walk me through this hard time in my return to Babylon.

I had other events as well, but these are the big ones. These judgments of purification and sin had thee biggest effects on my learning.

Each time I went into the refining moments I was warned first not to make certain decisions that I made anyway. I was warned not to marry my ex-wife, but I did anyway because my fornication led to impregnating her. I was told to divorce my wife after her adultery, but I wanted to keep the family together and not be without my three children everyday.

However, God continued with me and always God me a promise of restorations if I repented and turned back towards Him.

Now, you guys have to put up with me as I am now. Hence the purpose of my zeal. I have one long chain of testimony that is replete with judgment because of the sin that needed to be taken out of me and the sins I refused to give up.

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 06:08 PM
Im curious.. what do you believe the 'true' body of Christ to be? Just a question... for you....


Now to this question regarding the true body of Christ. The true body of Christ recognizes the validity of the experiences I typed regarding my judgments for both sin in me and the states of sin I would not put down. The true believers are not just going through the motions of a religious practice. The true believers are not just studying Scripture to become more intelligent and wise. The true believers are the children of God that are being raised in the manner of the direction they should go. Any rebellion on our part is met by what the true believers will come to realize as God chastising His own.

The unbeliever and the false believer do not know of such experiences personaly. They look at such events as hardtimes, bad things keep happenning to them, and never agreeing with God as to why judgment was necessary in the first place.

To conclude the true believers are within the congregations of Christians and Messianic Jews. Their testimonies sometime makes the distinctions of who is who.

Joey Porter
Jul 21st 2008, 07:08 PM
Where is the honesty of the saints. Over a hundred hits, but not at least fifty votes. This can determine what a saints world view is. Whether they think the Bride is ready or needs to prepared. I was curious as to what others thought.

The church most certainly will be judged, and very severely. The reason for this is because in spite of all of the "good works" done by the church as a whole, its mountain of false doctrines and erroneous teachings has piled up to heaven.

One false teaching in particular, which slanders the name of Yahweh beyond all other teachings, will be met with the most intense rebuke and punishment. This is the teaching which will cause those in the church who have proclaimed it to the nations, to be severely judged.

Now, as for the bride - do you think its possible for the body (of Christ) and the bride to be one in the same? What do you think the bride must do to begin making herself ready for the Lord's return? (Hint - the scriptures call Christ the "last Adam." From where did the "first Adam's" bride come?)

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 07:46 PM
The church most certainly will be judged, and very severely. The reason for this is because in spite of all of the "good works" done by the church as a whole, its mountain of false doctrines and erroneous teachings has piled up to heaven.

One false teaching in particular, which slanders the name of Yahweh beyond all other teachings, will be met with the most intense rebuke and punishment. This is the teaching which will cause those in the church who have proclaimed it to the nations, to be severely judged.

Now, as for the bride - do you think its possible for the body (of Christ) and the bride to be one in the same? What do you think the bride must do to begin making herself ready for the Lord's return? (Hint - the scriptures call Christ the "last Adam." From where did the "first Adam's" bride come?)

There is only one bride of Christ and yes that Bride comes from Him and is being prepared by the friend of bridegroom for the wedding feast. Most people miss the point that we are already betrothed to Christ, but not yet married. According to Scirpture, that is why He went to prepare a place for us, that what the Jews did in their customs.

What does He do to get His bride ready. The same things He did when He came the first time and was betrothed to His bride. He announced His coming by prophecy and John the baptist. He sent out His spies (Elijahs) to get the bride ready for His appeaing to receive Him. However, she was not ready and judgment came upon them and have several different effects on His Bride. Those that believe and were faithful were scattered among the gentiles nations, but they kept the lampstand. Those that did not believe got the lampstand remove from them and were also scattered among the gentiles.

He want do anything different this time either in His preparation for His coming. Again He will catch a lot of brides without enough oil in their lamps. He commanded us zealously to watch and not sleep concerning His return to wed His bride.

Joey Porter
Jul 21st 2008, 07:53 PM
There is only one bride of Christ and yes that Bride comes from Him and is being prepared by the friend of bridegroom for the wedding feast. Most people miss the point that we are already betrothed to Christ, but not yet married. According to Scirpture, that is why He went to prepare a place for us, that what the Jews did in their customs.

What does He do to get His bride ready. The same things He did when He came the first time and was betrothed to His bride. He announced His coming by prophecy and John the baptist. He sent out His spies (Elijahs) to get the bride ready for His appeaing to receive Him. However, she was not ready and judgment came upon them and have several different effects on His Bride. Those that believe and were faithful were scattered among the gentiles nations, but they kept the lampstand. Those that did not believe got the lampstand remove from them and were also scattered among the gentiles.

He want do anything different this time either in His preparation for His coming. Again He will catch a lot of brides without enough oil in their lamps. He commanded us zealously to watch and not sleep concerning His return to wed His bride.

Then the question becomes, how can we be sure that we have oil in our lamps?

keck553
Jul 21st 2008, 08:46 PM
The church most certainly will be judged, and very severely. The reason for this is because in spite of all of the "good works" done by the church as a whole, its mountain of false doctrines and erroneous teachings has piled up to heaven.

One false teaching in particular, which slanders the name of Yahweh beyond all other teachings, will be met with the most intense rebuke and punishment. This is the teaching which will cause those in the church who have proclaimed it to the nations, to be severely judged.



Are you speaking to replacement theology?

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 08:54 PM
Then the question becomes, how can we be sure that we have oil in our lamps?


Worship God in Spirit and Truth. The Spirit is more than willing to fill our lamps with His oil. The lamps that are half full denotes they do not have a committed heart. They are half way in the world and half in the kingdom. The others with the full lamps are fully committed to the cause and return of the kingdom.

Joey Porter
Jul 21st 2008, 09:28 PM
Are you speaking to replacement theology?

No, actualy. I am referring to the one doctrine that will cause someone to be judged by their own words. Or, at the very least, brought to the brink of it.

Joey Porter
Jul 21st 2008, 09:29 PM
Worship God in Spirit and Truth. The Spirit is more than willing to fill our lamps with His oil. The lamps that are half full denotes they do not have a committed heart. They are half way in the world and half in the kingdom. The others with the full lamps are fully committed to the cause and return of the kingdom.

Well, let me go even futher. I'm not trying to cause arguments, I'm asking valid questions.

How can we be sure that we are fully committed to the cause and return of the Kingdom?

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 09:42 PM
Well, let me go even futher. I'm not trying to cause arguments, I'm asking valid questions.

How can we be sure that we are fully committed to the cause and return of the Kingdom?

When your carnality is challenge to the degree that you must trust God to go any farther pass the comfort zone of what you already know to be true, feel, and identify. The course of God requires crucifixion of our carnality. Carnality does not want truth, abide in truth, or obey truth. Carnality wants to serve the person and the sin nature.

So, I know personally, when I must exercise trust in God to the point that my soul fights against what God is teaching me and expecting of me. No one souls wants to confirm, no not a one.

However, when we overide our sin nature and yield to the spirit, we find means necessary to know and live truth.

How does one know that he is committed? If that person's heart is striving towards to mark of the high calling and it by this means of moritfying carnality.

Joey Porter
Jul 21st 2008, 09:47 PM
When your carnality is challenge to the degree that you must trust God to go any farther pass the comfort zone of what you already know to be true, feel, and identify. The course of God requires crucifixion of our carnality. Carnality does not want truth, abide in truth, or obey truth. Carnality wants to serve the person and the sin nature.

So, I know personally, when I must exercise trust in God to the point that my soul fights against what God is teaching me and expecting of me. No one souls wants to confirm, no not a one.

However, when we overide our sin nature and yield to the spirit, we find means necessary to know and live truth.

How does one know that he is committed? If that person's heart is striving towards to mark of the high calling and it by this means of moritfying carnality.

Okay, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But what about the problem of when a person believes his heart is striving toward that mark, when in fact, he deceived himself? I'm pretty sure if you ask different people from different denominations with contradicting beliefs if their hearts are striving towards that mark, you'd have people from all of those differing sects that insist their heart is striving towards that mark, and that God Himself is showing them whatever "truths'' they believe. Even though these truths will contradict amongst different groups.

manichunter
Jul 21st 2008, 09:57 PM
Okay, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But what about the problem of when a person believes his heart is striving toward that mark, when in fact, he deceived himself? I'm pretty sure if you ask different people from different denominations with contradicting beliefs if their hearts are striving towards that mark, you'd have people from all of those differing sects that insist their heart is striving towards that mark, and that God Himself is showing them whatever "truths'' they believe. Even though these truths will contradict amongst different groups.


Well, with the Holy Spirit being in control of the helm, something that look out of order could be really well put together if the Spirit allows us to see to whole picture.

I saw a person has to sure that they are indwelled and talked to by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the boss of the church right now. If a person does not hear from the Holy Spirit, then the should not do. If a person hears from the Spirit then they should do. God talks to His people in various ways. He promised to give us His Spirit to be with us always and remind us of the things Jesus said. Jesus is the truth. Hence there is only one truth.

A lot of what saints are doing in the Name of God is a lie today.

keck553
Jul 21st 2008, 10:07 PM
The Holy Spirit can not lead you if your back is turned to Him. The mark is not defined by men's hearts. It's defined in Scripture. Yeshua always spoke from Scripture.

keck553
Jul 21st 2008, 10:11 PM
No, actualy. I am referring to the one doctrine that will cause someone to be judged by their own words. Or, at the very least, brought to the brink of it.

Sorry, you seem elusive. I'm ignorant. Enlighten me please.

ravi4u2
Jul 22nd 2008, 02:53 PM
The Church is not ready for the Lords return. The state of the Church says differently. We are not united, under the same convictions, or of one theology. The prepared who wait with their lamps full of oil say come. However, that is not the rule, but exception right now. Most saints are doing the same things gentiles are doing. Marrying, keeping up with the Jones, and looking for their blessing instead of the blesser.

Christ said it will be like Sodom before His return. Sodom was in such a state of sin that God had to end it. Hence why God is returning. Sin will be so bad once again that God will have to end all flesh in judgment for sin. The saints can get caught up in this if they do not start repenting and preparing now.The Church has always been the remnant. The remnant has always been alive; even during the so called "dark ages". The remnant or the few who are called the Ecclesia, or the called out ones do indeed call with the Spirit, "Come!".

ravi4u2
Jul 22nd 2008, 02:57 PM
I agree the "church" is not ready. A lot of churches I visit seem more like an Amway convention / emotional orgy than the body of Messiah gathering to worship Him.

And I still haven't found anywhere in the bible where it says to 'go to church on Sunday'. All the convocations I see actually mandated by God are on Holy days, and 1st Century synagoues like the ones Jesus read Torah in and taught in were not at all like today's churches.

I wonder if today's churches have replaced some men's roles as priests? I don't mean intentionally, but there seems to be a lack of Christian men assuming the roles God gave them responsibility for.Try Reading: So You Don't Want To Go To Church Anymore! (http://www.jakecolsen.com/contents.html) it is FREE...

Mograce2U
Jul 22nd 2008, 03:19 PM
Where is the honesty of the saints. Over a hundred hits, but not at least fifty votes. This can determine what a saints world view is. Whether they think the Bride is ready or needs to prepared. I was curious as to what others thought.Your question is not specific enough as to what you mean by "judged". There is a judgment for the saints and it is one of rewards - did you mean that?

threebigrocks
Jul 22nd 2008, 03:38 PM
The Holy Spirit can not lead you if your back is turned to Him. The mark is not defined by men's hearts. It's defined in Scripture. Yeshua always spoke from Scripture.

That's because Christ came as the Living Word. He quoted scripture and His words became what we have today as scripture.

We, as followers of Him, gain our assurance from scripture and from the Spirit. If our heart is set after what is pleasing to God then we will seek the pure truth of the gospel and the whole of scripture. If we don't have a heart that hungers for God the rest is just going through the motions. Faith is a living thing. It's more than scripture alone.

keck553
Jul 22nd 2008, 04:45 PM
I agree of course. Where is the reference material? How do we build our faith? How do we know what is not written in the Word of God is truth? You know these things as well as I do. When we reach outside of the Word of God, we'd better check it against the correct translation and the correct context of God's Word, or just like the Phairisees and the Saducees, we will wind up worshipping a creation and not the Creator.

Our focus is on the living God. He is our King. We can't serve two kings, physically or spiritually.

manichunter
Jul 22nd 2008, 04:57 PM
Your question is not specific enough as to what you mean by "judged". There is a judgment for the saints and it is one of rewards - did you mean that?

I gave the two examples of the judgments on this side of earth, purification and iniquity. Every saint is purified by trial and tribulations that come to perfect them. No saint knows what is best for them in order to prepare for the commission of God. God knows what is best to set the right character and motivations in us. Hence He purifies every saint. However, it will be a general and collective purging and refining for the end times. Like I noted before concerning other saints such as Moses, Joseph, and David. They all were purged before they served. Endtime saints have to be purged before the serve in the end times.

The judgment for iniquity falls upon all including some saints who refuse to be purged of iniquity. Iniquity is the state of lawlessness that a person chooses to remain in. They decide to continue in the doing of their own thing and way. They resist the purging of God and therefore are not prepared to serve when it is required of them. So, they face the same judgment of the unbeliever who remained in lawlessness and attempted self-soveriegnty.

keck553
Jul 22nd 2008, 05:06 PM
And out of that comes the infamous line many believers refuse to reconcile:

Jas 2:17 So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself.

Mograce2U
Jul 22nd 2008, 05:12 PM
I gave the two examples of the judgments on this side of earth, purification and iniquity. Every saint is purified by trial and tribulations that come to perfect them. No saint knows what is best for them in order to prepare for the commission of God. God knows what is best to set the right character and motivations in us. Hence He purifies every saint. However, it will be a general and collective purging and refining for the end times. Like I noted before concerning other saints such as Moses, Joseph, and David. They all were purged before they served. Endtime saints have to be purged before the serve in the end times.

The judgment for iniquity falls upon all including some saints who refuse to be purged of iniquity. Iniquity is the state of lawlessness that a person chooses to remain in. They decide to continue in the doing of their own thing and way. They resist the purging of God and therefore are not prepared to serve when it is required of them. So, they face the same judgment of the unbeliever who remained in lawlessness and attempted self-soveriegnty.But it is not the trial nor the persecutions which purge us, rather it is the power of the Holy Spirit which sanctifies by the word of God. The trial merely presents the occasion by which we turn back to Him in repentance and faith to do this work in us. God is not judging us in that OT sense. Rather chastening is for sons, not punishment. There is a difference.

(John 15:2-3 KJV) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. {3} Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

(1 Cor 5:7-8 KJV) Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: {8} Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

(2 Tim 2:21-22 KJV) If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. {22} Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

(Heb 1:3 KJV) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

(Heb 9:14 KJV) How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

(2 Pet 1:4-10 KJV) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. {5} And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; {6} And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; {7} And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. {8} For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. {9} But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. {10} Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

(Eph 5:25-27 KJV) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; {26} That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, {27} That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

manichunter
Jul 22nd 2008, 05:21 PM
But it is not the trial nor the persecutions which purge us, rather it is the power of the Holy Spirit which sanctifies by the word of God. The trial merely presents the occasion by which we turn back to Him in repentance and faith to do this work in us. God is not judging us in that OT sense. Rather chastening is for sons, not punishment. There is a difference.



I am talking from personal experience if that means anything kind sir. :D

I know of this purging fire. The same fire that set the apostle Saul down for fourteen years before His ministry. It is not about the covenant, God changes not and mankind has not changed. There is nothing new under the sun. Mankind has to be refined and purified in the Hands of the Master Potter, for we are the clay. Some clay allows the master's potter hand to make what He wants and others resist and they are put on the self. God does not and will not use a vessel of dishoner, that would be unholy and profane. He has to perfect a saint for holy use by His own hands. That has always been the same manner of how God prepared His people for the work of the ministry. The evidence that one is not ready is known by the amount of wolves and hirelings that stand before the congregations every Sunday.

keck553
Jul 22nd 2008, 05:51 PM
I can share that exact purging in my experince. It also seems that the greater the sanctification (or revelation) the greater the accountability God places upon me. God definately will use physical circumstance to teach us His way. My testimony isn't an instant magical transformation. My personal sanctification has been at the pace and at the personal price of my surrender to Him. Sometiimes slow and seemingly brutally painful. The question comes down to this: Are I willing to walk away from what my friends and family think of me? Am I willing to be identified with the death of Jesus? Most humans don't find it easy to be emptied out and stripped naked of all of what they thought they possesed by their own will and power before God. But that's what God demands from us if He is going to transform us.

manichunter
Jul 22nd 2008, 06:16 PM
I can share that exact purging in my experince. It also seems that the greater the sanctification (or revelation) the greater the accountability God places upon me. God definately will use physical circumstance to teach us His way. My testimony isn't an instant magical transformation. My personal sanctification has been at the pace and at the personal price of my surrender to Him. Sometiimes slow and seemingly brutally painful. The question comes down to this: Are I willing to walk away from what my friends and family think of me? Am I willing to be identified with the death of Jesus? Most humans don't find it easy to be emptied out and stripped naked of all of what they thought they possesed by their own will and power before God. But that's what God demands from us if He is going to transform us.


I have hit bottom twice and do not care if I hit it again. This is not to say it would not hurt, but God has delivered and restored me each time. It amazes me that some saints do not recall such fire in their life. Maybe they just did not see the fire for what it was. :eek: I do not know. I just know for myself. What happened KecK. What do you know of the Master Potter's refining fire.

keck553
Jul 22nd 2008, 07:39 PM
I will, please give me some time as I have to do some work. I'll just say this one thing - if one doesn't ask for something, God won't give it. Perhaps some of our brethren have not looked up to God and asked? If you want a relationship with God as real as the brick wall you pound your head on, It's going to cost your stubborn control of your worldly possesions..

I asked God for two things - one to show His authority over me, and two - to help me with unbelief (in His soveignty).

Yes, He answered my prayers. But it cost every illusion of soverignty, control, self will, and self sufficiency I had. All of it.

With God, be careful what you ask for.

manichunter
Jul 22nd 2008, 07:47 PM
I will, please give me some time as I have to do some work. I'll just say this one thing - if one doesn't ask for something, God won't give it. Perhaps some of our brethren have not looked up to God and asked? If you want a relationship with God as real as the brick wall you pound your head on, It's going to cost your stubborn control of your worldly possesions..

I asked God for two things - one to show His authority over me, and two - to help me with unbelief (in His soveignty).

Yes, He answered my prayers. But it cost every illusion of soverignty, control, self will, and self sufficiency I had. All of it.

With God, be careful what you ask for.

I told God I want to be real and not leave any falsehood in me. I told Him I wanted to a be a first fruit saint. He responded that I would not be a type of Moses or Paul, but a Aaron, Joshua, and Timothy type. Hence I believe He is keeping His promise, but still controls the parameters of my calling. He called me the middle relief pitcher. I wanted to be a starter. So much for ambitions. He had to kill the ambition in me. :pp

There are three types of saints. LOL This is not gospel just my personal way of looking at things. Superman who desires to be great and out in the fore front, without the mask and is not reluntanct. Spiderman, who desires to be unknown and behind the scenes, with a mask and is reluntanct. The Silver Surfer, who just wants to do their own thing and be left alone. :B

I was a Superman that God gave kryptonite too. He also took my cape. :giveup:

Joey Porter
Jul 22nd 2008, 09:41 PM
Sorry, you seem elusive. I'm ignorant. Enlighten me please.

I'm not intentionally being elusive! Honestly I'm not. It will come to light eventually in the right time and place. I don't think I can really address it here.

manichunter
Jul 22nd 2008, 10:08 PM
I'm not intentionally being elusive! Honestly I'm not. It will come to light eventually in the right time and place. I don't think I can really address it here.

Address what. in reference to what

manichunter
Jul 22nd 2008, 10:26 PM
I need more boldness from the saints, where are the votes. Let me know where you stand. Send a shout out to your boy.........

keck553
Jul 22nd 2008, 10:55 PM
I told God I want to be real and not leave any falsehood in me. I told Him I wanted to a be a first fruit saint. He responded that I would not be a type of Moses or Paul, but a Aaron, Joshua, and Timothy type. Hence I believe He is keeping His promise, but still controls the parameters of my calling. He called me the middle relief pitcher. I wanted to be a starter. So much for ambitions. He had to kill the ambition in me. :pp

There are three types of saints. LOL This is not gospel just my personal way of looking at things. Superman who desires to be great and out in the fore front, without the mask and is not reluntanct. Spiderman, who desires to be unknown and behind the scenes, with a mask and is reluntanct. The Silver Surfer, who just wants to do their own thing and be left alone. :B

I was a Superman that God gave kryptonite too. He also took my cape. :giveup:

I posted a little testimony on this thread

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=132765

This was a somewhat small fire compared to later ones, but it seemed really hot at the time.....

Bick
Jul 22nd 2008, 11:05 PM
Ananias, I don't understand why so many Christian belivers are convinced that the Church/body of Christ is going through the "Tribulation."

In that most marvelous of Epistles, Ephesians, Paul reveals the glorious future of the Church/body, with which he was enlightened by God.

The first three chapters are especially revealing. May I quote from the NIV, a number of special verses:

Eph.1:3-4 "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the good pleasure of his will."

This is already planned for us as sons, which we will enjoy in the heavenlies where we will be after meeting the Lord in the air. This occurs before the "tribulation."

For Paul tells us in 2 Thes. 2:1-4, "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you brothers, not to be alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come, untill the [departure] occurs..."

Paul reminds them of his words in his first letter to them (1 Thes. 4:13-18)
that the dead in Christ and those alive at His coming, will be changed and together meet the Lord in the air and be taken to the heavens where the Lord came from.

I bracketed "departure", for that is true meaning of the Greek word "apostasia."

Anyway, IMO, the Church/body of Christ future is in the heavenlies.

Revelation is what John writes in his vision as he tells us in Rev. 1:20

Literally, "I was in spirit in the Lord's day." And this is the day of the Lord, for John was in that day, in spirit.

manichunter
Jul 22nd 2008, 11:17 PM
Ananias, I don't understand why so many Christian belivers are convinced that the Church/body of Christ is going through the "Tribulation."

In that most marvelous of Epistles, Ephesians, Paul reveals the glorious future of the Church/body, with which he was enlightened by God.

The first three chapters are especially revealing. May I quote from the NIV, a number of special verses:

Eph.1:3-4 "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the good pleasure of his will."

This is already planned for us as sons, which we will enjoy in the heavenlies where we will be after meeting the Lord in the air. This occurs before the "tribulation."

For Paul tells us in 2 Thes. 2:1-4, "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you brothers, not to be alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come, untill the [departure] occurs..."

Paul reminds them of his words in his first letter to them (1 Thes. 4:13-18)
that the dead in Christ and those alive at His coming, will be changed and together meet the Lord in the air and be taken to the heavens where the Lord came from.

I bracketed "departure", for that is true meaning of the Greek word "apostasia."

Anyway, IMO, the Church/body of Christ future is in the heavenlies.

Revelation is what John writes in his vision as he tells us in Rev. 1:20

Literally, "I was in spirit in the Lord's day." And this is the day of the Lord, for John was in that day, in spirit.

It is because of all the theological arguements that exist within christianity regarding the tribulation are missing revelation. What is revelation? The inspired truth. There are multiple interpretations concerning the saints and the tribulations. However, the Spirit is telling people to prepare. I rather be safe than sorry. I to am preparing as led by God. I do not know it all in no part. However, the visions and instructions I am getting tell me to get ready for harsh times to a strong degree. I know one thing pertaining to the Scripture for a theological prospective is that the saints and the anti-christ share some time on earth together at the detriment to the saints.

Re 20:9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+20:9&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
Re 13:7 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+13:7&translation=nkj&st=1&new=1&sr=1&l=en) - It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
It does not sound like the saints will miss all of the party.

keck553
Jul 22nd 2008, 11:59 PM
The 'rapture' has always raised red flags with me. I haven't studied out the 'end times' but this just doesn't ring right to me. I wish I could give a theological argument, but I just haven't studied it. Though it seems to me the truth is the polar opposite of this rapture theory.

I always thought that when I died I was going to heaven, not Jerusalem! As long as I am at the feet of my Master, I really don't care.

manichunter
Jul 23rd 2008, 12:34 AM
The 'rapture' has always raised red flags with me. I haven't studied out the 'end times' but this just doesn't ring right to me. I wish I could give a theological argument, but I just haven't studied it. Though it seems to me the truth is the polar opposite of this rapture theory.

I always thought that when I died I was going to heaven, not Jerusalem! As long as I am at the feet of my Master, I really don't care.

I do not know what to think about the rapture theology now. I do know if you want to catch someone slipping, just tell them they want have to go through something.

manichunter
Jul 23rd 2008, 12:42 AM
The 'rapture' has always raised red flags with me. I haven't studied out the 'end times' but this just doesn't ring right to me. I wish I could give a theological argument, but I just haven't studied it. Though it seems to me the truth is the polar opposite of this rapture theory.

I always thought that when I died I was going to heaven, not Jerusalem! As long as I am at the feet of my Master, I really don't care.

I think people are scared to vote:rofl:. It got them :o. However I still :kiss: them.

manichunter
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:42 PM
The 'rapture' has always raised red flags with me. I haven't studied out the 'end times' but this just doesn't ring right to me. I wish I could give a theological argument, but I just haven't studied it. Though it seems to me the truth is the polar opposite of this rapture theory.

I always thought that when I died I was going to heaven, not Jerusalem! As long as I am at the feet of my Master, I really don't care.

What is your view of the rapture? I have to restudy this issue.

manichunter
Jul 23rd 2008, 08:01 PM
I'm not intentionally being elusive! Honestly I'm not. It will come to light eventually in the right time and place. I don't think I can really address it here.

Are there any more questions kind sir.

manichunter
Jul 24th 2008, 03:20 PM
I will, please give me some time as I have to do some work. I'll just say this one thing - if one doesn't ask for something, God won't give it. Perhaps some of our brethren have not looked up to God and asked? If you want a relationship with God as real as the brick wall you pound your head on, It's going to cost your stubborn control of your worldly possesions..

I asked God for two things - one to show His authority over me, and two - to help me with unbelief (in His soveignty).

Yes, He answered my prayers. But it cost every illusion of soverignty, control, self will, and self sufficiency I had. All of it.

With God, be careful what you ask for.

Keck, not many people want to speak about the state of the Body of Christ. I wanted to know what others thought concerning the love of the saints towards one another and the people outside of the kingdom. How our we fulfilling our commission. How sin been allowed to sit in local congregations without being addressed.

keck553
Jul 24th 2008, 05:19 PM
What is your view of the rapture? I have to restudy this issue.

I really don't want to lay out my thoughts unil I have gathered the supporting Scripture, stripped the western Platoism out of the translations and studied them in the correct context.

I'm studying the Epistles to Hebews right now, so please give me a week or so. I usually get 4 days worth of study in the Word done on Shabbats, so maybe it will be sooner :)

B'Yeshua HaMashiach my friend

keck553
Jul 24th 2008, 05:25 PM
Keck, not many people want to speak about the state of the Body of Christ. I wanted to know what others thought concerning the love of the saints towards one another and the people outside of the kingdom. How our we fulfilling our commission. How sin been allowed to sit in local congregations without being addressed.

It's very difficlut and painful to ask God to search my heart and reveal my hypocrasy. It's 'feels better' to repent the sins of physical actions then repent of the sin buried in my heart.I imagine this is true with most.