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mikebr
Jul 20th 2008, 11:48 AM
Forgiveness or Repentance? IOW does the knowledge of being forgiven lead to repentance or are we forgiven after we repent?

Bethany67
Jul 20th 2008, 11:55 AM
I think the order goes:

Conviction -> repentance -> forgiveness

mikebr
Jul 20th 2008, 05:33 PM
I think the order goes:

Conviction -> repentance -> forgiveness

I think this is the order

forgiveness > conviction > Repentance

Forgiveness is a fact. We have been forgiven. We simply do not experience the forgiveness.

Bethany67
Jul 20th 2008, 05:36 PM
I see where you're coming from; I was speaking from the perspective of the human perception. We are not personally forgiven ie. benefit from that forgiveness until we repent.

Brother Mark
Jul 20th 2008, 05:37 PM
I think this is the order

forgiveness > conviction > Repentance

Forgiveness is a fact. We have been forgiven. We simply do not experience the forgiveness.


Matt 6:14-15

14 " For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
NASU

This passage indicates that we must first forgive, before we can be forgiven.

Having said that, it is the kindness of God that leads to repentance. Knowing he will forgive us, motivates us to repent. But one is not forgiven before one repents.

Athanasius
Jul 20th 2008, 05:38 PM
Conviction --> Repentence --> Conviction --> Forgiveness of others

mikebr
Jul 20th 2008, 05:40 PM
So what Christ did on the cross was to simply make a way for us to be forgiven? Read 2 Cor 5 and tell me what was going on.

watchinginawe
Jul 20th 2008, 05:42 PM
I think this is the order

forgiveness > conviction > Repentance

Forgiveness is a fact. We have been forgiven. We simply do not experience the forgiveness.I agree with that. But I also believe that forgiveness is efficacious only for those who receive it. Experiencing is actually being forgiven. We receive forgiveness through faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour.

God Bless!

Brother Mark
Jul 20th 2008, 05:44 PM
So what Christ did on the cross was to simply make a way for us to be forgiven? Read 2 Cor 5 and tell me what was going on.

Here's another verse to ponder...


Matt 12:31

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
KJV

Jesus is making it clear here that this sin will never be forgiven. I suppose then, that forgiveness is not a fact.

mikebr
Jul 20th 2008, 05:58 PM
maybe i'm confusing forgiveness with reconciliation.

mikebr
Jul 20th 2008, 06:03 PM
John Calvin says that ďa man cannot apply himself seriously to repentance without knowing himself to belong to God. But no one is truly persuaded that he belongs to God unless he has first recognized Godís graceĒ (Institutes, III.2).

BroRog
Jul 20th 2008, 06:10 PM
maybe i'm confusing forgiveness with reconciliation.

I don't think you are confusing them Mike. Just as God requires us to forgive first, he also forgives first. Reconciliation is the result the final step. So, given your diagram, it looks like this.

Forgiveness > Conviction > Repentance > Reconciliation.

I think of it in terms of two estranged parties; each of them is turned back-to-back away from each other. When God forgives, he has turned around to face man. But man must also turn around to face God in repentance. Once each party turns front-to-front reconciliation can take place.

mikebr
Jul 20th 2008, 06:10 PM
Here's another verse to ponder...


Matt 12:31

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
KJV

Jesus is making it clear here that this sin will never be forgiven. I suppose then, that forgiveness is not a fact.




Are you saying that the Gospel is the good news of what is possible rather than the good news of what is?

Great news you can be forgiven if...................

or

Great news, you are forgiven now............................

the first seems to be faith in my faith, goodness, or repentance while the second is faith in Christ.

mikebr
Jul 20th 2008, 06:13 PM
I don't think you are confusing them Mike. Just as God requires us to forgive first, he also forgives first. Reconciliation is the result the final step. So, given your diagram, it looks like this.

Forgiveness > Conviction > Repentance > Reconciliation.

I think of it in terms of two estranged parties; each of them is turned back-to-back away from each other. When God forgives, he has turned around to face man. But man must also turn around to face God in repentance. Once each party turns front-to-front reconciliation can take place.

The problem is that God never turned His back on me.

as already quoted "the kindness of God leads us to repentance.

Brother Mark
Jul 20th 2008, 06:21 PM
Are you saying that the Gospel is the good news of what is possible rather than the good news of what is?

Great news you can be forgiven if...................

or

Great news, you are forgiven now............................

the first seems to be faith in my faith, goodness, or repentance while the second is faith in Christ.

Yes, I am saying the gospel has with it an "if". Jesus preached "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand".

There is danger in placing "faith" in our faith. The object of our faith is most important! But if our faith is in the wrong person, we are doomed. Scripture says that for by grace we are saved, through faith. Faith is necessary but the Object of our faith is most necessary.


The good news is you can be forgiven if you repent. Here's a parable that explains it.

Luke 18:10-14
10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer. 11 "The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, 'God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer. 12 'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.' 13 "But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' 14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted."
NASB

So we see the one was forgiven and the other was not. The publican was forgiven yet the pharisee was not.

Brother Mark
Jul 20th 2008, 06:24 PM
John Calvin says that ďa man cannot apply himself seriously to repentance without knowing himself to belong to God. But no one is truly persuaded that he belongs to God unless he has first recognized Godís graceĒ (Institutes, III.2).

There is a great need to recognize the grace of God. The kindness of God leads us to repentance. In the same way, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and will keep a man from evil. As we grow in grace, our understanding and love for the Lord increases.

I think too we may consider how one who is saved responds as compared to one who is lost. A saved man should be leading a life of repentance already. When God reveals his great love, the natural reaction is even more repentance. For a lost man, sometimes fear is the motivating factor at first. We see from Jonah that repentance came before forgiveness for the lost Assyrians.

mikebr
Jul 20th 2008, 06:27 PM
Sorry, if its based on me its simply not good news. I think I'll keep on believing that what Jesus did on the cross had very little to do with me and everything to do with Him.

I still think that you should explain 2 cor 5 to me?

While I was still a sinner He died for me? Why? So that I might have enough faith to complete what He did?

watchinginawe
Jul 20th 2008, 06:30 PM
Are you saying that the Gospel is the good news of what is possible rather than the good news of what is?

Great news you can be forgiven if...................

or

Great news, you are forgiven now............................

the first seems to be faith in my faith, goodness, or repentance while the second is faith in Christ.Looks like Jesus preached the first option, though not as you (mis)characterize it:

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

We see Jesus states the "fact" part (v. 15), and then preaches the response expected.

This isn't an isolated verse. Here is what Jesus tells Nicodemus:

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Now we are on the other side of Jesus being "lifted up", it is a fact. Jesus does not need "lifted up" each and every time one is "forgiven". But I'm not sure why Jesus "conditionalizes" eternal life, it must be that belief in Jesus as one's Lord and Saviour has something to do with having "eternal life". :dunno:

Now your version, "Great news, you are forgiven now...", requires no response, nothing to heed, not even acknowledgment. In that case, even faith in "my faith" is good enough. So I am not sure what is bunching you up there.

God Bless!

mikebr
Jul 20th 2008, 06:30 PM
There is a great need to recognize the grace of God. The kindness of God leads us to repentance. In the same way, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and will keep a man from evil. As we grow in grace, our understanding and love for the Lord increases.

I think too we may consider how one who is saved responds as compared to one who is lost. A saved man should be leading a life of repentance already. When God reveals his great love, the natural reaction is even more repentance. For a lost man, sometimes fear is the motivating factor at first. We see from Jonah that repentance came before forgiveness for the lost Assyrians.

The reason that folks don't recognize the Grace of God is because we put stipulation on it. Grace if..................

Grace plus anything is not grace.

"Twas grace that taught my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved."

Brother Mark
Jul 20th 2008, 06:31 PM
Sorry, if its based on me its simply not good news. I think I'll keep on believing that what Jesus did on the cross had very little to do with me and everything to do with Him.

I still think that you should explain 2 cor 5 to me?

While I was still a sinner He died for me? Why? So that I might have enough faith to complete what He did?

2 Cor 5:11

11 Therefore knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.
NASB

That is a key verse in 2 cor 5. Paul knew what unbelief would do to a man. One who doesn't have faith in Christ goes to hell and for that reason, we preach Christ.

We have several examples in scripture where some were forgiven and others were not. It is not really accurate to say forgiveness is a fact and it doesn't matter our response.

mikebr
Jul 20th 2008, 06:41 PM
Now your version, "Great news, you are forgiven now...", requires no response, nothing to heed, not even acknowledgment. Even in that case, faith in "my faith" is good enough. So I am not sure what is bunching you up there.

Something can be a reality without my experiencing it.


If I offended you and you forgave me yet I continued to live as if you hadn't forgiven me it would still hinder our relationship, only because I was not living in the reality of your forgiveness.


God's forgiveness needs to be acknowledged but the acknowledgment does not create the forgiveness.

BroRog
Jul 20th 2008, 06:46 PM
The problem is that God never turned His back on me.

as already quoted "the kindness of God leads us to repentance.

According to Paul, he did. This is his very point in Romans 1:17-31 in which he points out that God had given us over to our dishonorable passions and depraved mind. To be given over to these is the wrath of God.

mikebr
Jul 20th 2008, 06:51 PM
2 Cor 5:11

11 Therefore knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.
NASB

That is a key verse in 2 cor 5. Paul knew what unbelief would do to a man. One who doesn't have faith in Christ goes to hell and for that reason, we preach Christ.

We have several examples in scripture where some were forgiven and others were not. It is not really accurate to say forgiveness is a fact and it doesn't matter our response.

Brother Mark, I guess I've brought it on myself but this discussion is not a segue into I don't believe in hell thread. I never said or implied that one didn't have to have faith in Christ. In fact that is exactly what I am saying. My faith is in the fact that I am forgiven and He did that and showed that on the cross. I can't believe that you took the whole of 2Cor5 and that's the only verse you quoted.

And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 13 (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/2corinthians/2corinthians5.htm#foot13) For our sake he made him to be sin who did not know sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

Brother Mark
Jul 20th 2008, 06:51 PM
Something can be a reality without my experiencing it.

If I offended you and you forgave me yet I continued to live as if you hadn't forgiven me it would still hinder our relationship, only because I was not living in the reality of your forgiveness.

God's forgiveness needs to be acknowledged but the acknowledgment does not create the forgiveness.

You are almost right Mike. God is willing to forgive. But that forgiveness is not given to all just because. Romans said he loved us while we were yet sinners. It does not say he forgave us without acknowledgment or faith. Quite the contrary.

Eph 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
NASB

One is not saved before faith nor by faith. But one is saved through faith. Without faith, one cannot be saved. The forgiveness is there and can be received. But not without faith and repentance.

mikebr
Jul 20th 2008, 06:56 PM
You are almost right Mike. God is willing to forgive. But that forgiveness is not given to all just because. Romans said he loved us while we were yet sinners. It does not say he forgave us without acknowledgment or faith. Quite the contrary.

Eph 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
NASB

One is not saved before faith nor by faith. But one is saved through faith. Without faith, one cannot be saved. The forgiveness is there and can be received. But not without faith and repentance.

So which of us is more loved by God Brother Mark?

I'm almost right and you are completely right. What's the difference in our relationship with God?

If we were passengers on a lifeboat and one of us had to go which would it be? you or me?

Brother Mark
Jul 20th 2008, 07:00 PM
So which of us is more loved by God Brother Mark?

I'm almost right and you are completely right. What's the difference in our relationship with God?

If we were passengers on a lifeboat and one of us had to go which would it be? you or me?

God loves all the same Mike. But he still sends sinners to hell. Why? Because they don't repent. He loved the Pharisees and wept over them. But that didn't keep him from preaching woe unto them. Why? Because their forgiveness was not a fact. It was not a given. It required a change of mind on their part and faith to go with it.

Before going forward, keep in mind the rules of the board.

mikebr
Jul 20th 2008, 07:00 PM
You are almost right Mike. God is willing to forgive. But that forgiveness is not given to all just because. Romans said he loved us while we were yet sinners. It does not say he forgave us without acknowledgment or faith. Quite the contrary.

Eph 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
NASB

One is not saved before faith nor by faith. But one is saved through faith. Without faith, one cannot be saved. The forgiveness is there and can be received. But not without faith and repentance.

If you have to forgive others before God can forgive you do they have to ask for forgiveness before you can forgive them? If they don't seems to me you are in a bad place.

Brother Mark
Jul 20th 2008, 07:02 PM
If you have to forgive others before God can forgive you do they have to ask for forgiveness before you can forgive them? If they don't seems to me you are in a bad place.

I have to forgive whether they ask me for forgiveness or not. But God does not. He made forgiveness conditional throughout the scriptures. We are not saved simply because Jesus died or else all would be saved. Yet, some go to hell and stay there.

mikebr
Jul 20th 2008, 07:04 PM
God loves all the same Mike. But he still sends sinners to hell. Why? Because they don't repent. He loved the Pharisees and wept over them. But that didn't keep him from preaching woe unto them. Why? Because their forgiveness was not a fact. It was not a given. It required a change of mind on their part and faith to go with it.

Before going forward, keep in mind the rules of the board.


What rules Brother Mark? I haven't broken any rules nor have I brought up anything that would cause any one else to break rules. You are the only one who has mentioned hell.

again
Brother Mark, I guess I've brought it on myself but this discussion is not a segue into I don't believe in hell thread.

mikebr
Jul 20th 2008, 07:06 PM
I have to forgive whether they ask me for forgiveness or not. But God does not. He made forgiveness conditional throughout the scriptures. We are not saved simply because Jesus died or else all would be saved. Yet, some go to hell and stay there.


OK but I totally disagree that God would ask us to be responsible for things that He Himself is not responsible for.

Brother Mark
Jul 20th 2008, 07:15 PM
OK but I totally disagree that God would ask us to be responsible for things that He Himself is not responsible for.

Already given plenty of scriptures. Here's one that bears repeating.

Mark 11:25-26
25 "And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone; so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your transgressions. 26 "But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions."
NASB

And ...

Matt 18:34-35
34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 "So shall My heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."
NASB

There's plenty of others too. But these two verses will do for now.

watchinginawe
Jul 20th 2008, 07:21 PM
God's forgiveness needs to be acknowledged but the acknowledgment does not create the forgiveness.Mike, we agreed that the "forgiveness" already existed, it doesn't need "created" by acknowledgment. However, it does need received personally. That is why Jesus is my "personal" Lord and Saviour, I have personally received God's grace. It isn't just a "fact" or "given" that Jesus is THE Lord and Saviour of everyone and needs only "acknowledged".

Think on this line. What is the opposite of "receiving"?

Consider the following passage where Paul relates his commission from Jesus Himself:

Acts 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.

14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

The above is the direct revelation of Jesus to Paul. Look to verse 18 carefully. Is "forgiveness of sins" already received or not by the Gentiles? How does Jesus say they receive "forgiveness of sins"? By faith in Jesus Christ.

Forgiveness of sins must be received. We must be turned from darkness to light. It isn't just a "simple fact" already in the history books.

God Bless!

mikebr
Jul 20th 2008, 08:02 PM
Mike, we agreed that the "forgiveness" already existed, it doesn't need "created" by acknowledgment. However, it does need received personally. That is why Jesus is my "personal" Lord and Saviour, I have personally received God's grace. It isn't just a "fact" or "given" that Jesus is THE Lord and Saviour of everyone and needs only "acknowledged".

Think on this line. What is the opposite of "receiving"?

Consider the following passage where Paul relates his commission from Jesus Himself:

Acts 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.

14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

The above is the direct revelation of Jesus to Paul. Look to verse 18 carefully. Is "forgiveness of sins" already received or not by the Gentiles? How does Jesus say they receive "forgiveness of sins"? By faith in Jesus Christ.

Forgiveness of sins must be received. We must be turned from darkness to light. It isn't just a "simple fact" already in the history books.

God Bless!
Exactly, I'm simply saying that we can't receive what don't already exist.

Therefore: Forgiveness+Conviction+Repentance=Reception(Reconc iliation)