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Fresh Clay
Jul 20th 2008, 12:26 PM
Please help me better understand the difference between the reference to receiving the Holy Ghost in John 20:22 and Acts 8:14-17 and Acts 1:5 and Acts 2:4. I am not sure I understand the difference between being baptized, filled, and receiving or whether there is a difference?

carboy
Jul 20th 2008, 05:25 PM
When Jesus appears to the disciples in John 20: 22 He breaths on them and says " Receive ye the Holy Ghost" At this point they where born again, new birth, saved.

But then He says in Acts 1:5 "For John truly baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

In verse 8 He says" But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you: and you shall be witnesses....."

We receive The holy Spirit when we are saved, our seal. The baptism is the pouring out of living water as to pour out from us to #1 evangelize and #2 make disciples. The Church has power to do these things as long as it is day, the night comes when no man can work. There will come a time when the out pouring will be held and the church proper, as in the day of Pentecost,will no longer have effect but the spirit of promise will still abide within us. This is how I understand the 10 virgins spoken of by Jesus in Mathew 25. When midnight comes we will know to look up for our redemption draws nigh. There are virgins with no oil in there lamps.

The out pouring is to give the Church power and authority to do mainly these two things. Be witnesses, evangelize and to go and make disciples, teach. We are all called to do both at some level, one or one thousand but we first must be discipled by someone.

The receiving of the Holy Spirit is salvation.

This is how I read the Bible, I hope it helps and answers your question.

In Peace

godsgirl
Jul 20th 2008, 05:26 PM
When we are saved the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us-there is, however, a second work the Bible calls being baptised in the Holy Spirit, or being filled with the Spirit. When this happens the initial evidence is speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives us the words to say. No one was baptised in the Holy Spirit in this way until the day of Pentecost-Acts 2:4 is the first time we are told about believers receiving this blessing.

ananias
Jul 20th 2008, 09:27 PM
When we are saved the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us-there is, however, a second work the Bible calls being baptised in the Holy Spirit, or being filled with the Spirit. When this happens the initial evidence is speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives us the words to say. No one was baptised in the Holy Spirit in this way until the day of Pentecost-Acts 2:4 is the first time we are told about believers receiving this blessing.

Hi, godsgirl.

I think the words used in the Bible are important, so that we don't misunderstand what is being said.

There is a difference between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit. But there is no difference between being "filled with" the Holy Spirit and being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

After Jesus had risen from the dead, and after He had breathed on His apostles and said, “receive the Holy Spirit” (Joh.20: 22), He “commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to await the promise of the Father which you heard from Me. For John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” (Act 1:4-5); and when the time came for them to be “baptized in the Holy Spirit”, the book of Acts does NOT say that they were “baptized in” the Holy Spirit, it says that they were all “FILLED OF the Holy Spirit” (Act.2: 4).

“Baptism in” and being “filled of” the Holy Spirit is one and the same thing – and it IS NOT a once-off experience – we are exhorted in the New Testament to keep on being filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph.5: 18); and the apostles were filled of the Holy Spirit a number of times again AFTER the Day of Pentecost (Act.4: 8, 31; Act.7: 55; Act.9: 17; Act.13: 9; Act.11: 24; Eph.5: 18; Phi.1: 11)

The gift of the Holy Spirit is two-fold: (a) the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit; and (b) the filling of (or baptism in) the Holy Spirit. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is for our comfort, guidance (including rebuking by the Holy Spirit) and teaching through the word of God, and our sanctification. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the seal of God which no-one except God can see.

In the same way that more water being added to a glass which is already full causes the glass to spill its contents over, the filling of (baptism in) the Holy Spirit causes the love of God to overflow through us to others – fulfilling the law of God in us – to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves – when we are filled of the Holy Spirit, God's Love for all people will automatically overflow through us to them; and it is quite obvious that nobody who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is also at all times filled of the Holy Spirit.

The filling of (baptism in) the Holy Spirit can be accompanied with power to heal, to prophesy, or to perform signs and wonders for the sake of evangelism – but only in accordance with the will of God:

“... how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with different kinds of miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit, ACCORDING TO HIS OWN WILL?” (Heb.2: 3-4).

From the book of Acts through to the book of Jude, the TOTAL NUMBER of records of and references to signs, wonders and miracles performed BY THE DISCIPLES of Jesus am0unts to ten:-

Act.2: 43 (the apostles); Act.5: 12 (the apostles); Act.8: 6, 13 (the apostle Philip); Act.14: 3 and Act.15: 12 (the apostle Paul and his traveling companion, Barnabas); Rom.15: 19 and 2Cor.12: 12 (the apostle Paul); Heb.2: 4 (the apostles – those “who had heard”, or had been eye-witnesses of Christ); Act.6: 8 (Stephen). The gift of tongues was given for the sake of evangelism.

So there's a difference between the indwelling (the seal of God) and the filling or baptism in the Holy Spirit.

ananias.

SIG
Jul 20th 2008, 11:02 PM
When we are saved the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us-there is, however, a second work the Bible calls being baptised in the Holy Spirit, or being filled with the Spirit. When this happens the initial evidence is speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives us the words to say. No one was baptised in the Holy Spirit in this way until the day of Pentecost-Acts 2:4 is the first time we are told about believers receiving this blessing.

An aside: Who exactly do you think was baptized with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost?

Brother Mark
Jul 20th 2008, 11:08 PM
Being indewlt occurs when we are saved and have a new heart. When we are filled/baptized with the Holy Spirit we have power. We see this in Jesus life and in the first chapter of Acts.

Acts 1:7-9
7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth. "
NASB

When one is saved, a few sins drop off. When one is baptized in the Spirit, he has power over sin and power to be His witnesses.

cdo
Jul 21st 2008, 04:12 AM
Begining in Acts 2:4..Read Acts 2 :4:1-3...Acts 2:4 says
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost(Spirit),and began to speak with other tongues,as the Spirit gave them utterance
Acts 2:5 and there were dwellings at Jersualem Jews,devout men,out of every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad,the mulitude came together,and were confounded,Because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Acts 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled,saying one to another,Behold,are not all these Galilaeans?
Acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue,wherein we were born
Acts 2:9Parthians,and Medes,and Elamites,and the dwellers in Mesopotamia,and in Judaea, and Cappadocia,in Pontus,and Asia
Acts 2:10 Phrygia,and Pamphylia in Egypt,and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene,and strangers of Rome,Jews and proselytes,
Acts 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Everyone heard the words in their own language...
not an unknown tongue.

godsgirl
Jul 21st 2008, 11:11 AM
An aside: Who exactly do you think was baptized with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost?


I agree that the Holy Spirit indwells all believers. The Disciples received the Holy Spirit in John 20=yet there was more and that's what happened to the ...

The 120 in the upper room.

During this time, Peter stood up in the company—there were about 120 of them in the room at the time



The term baptism in the Holy Spirit is used by Jesus for this event in our lives-see Acts 1

must wait for what the Father promised: the promise you heard from me. John baptized in water; you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit. And soon."



Once we have received this baptism we most definitly need to keep on being filled-I see no conflict, most of us just use the term Jesus used for the first time the Lord fills us to overflowing with His Holy Spirit., but even the Bible uses different terms for this same event...see

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 10:45=47
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. 7 Now the men were about twelve in all.

SIG
Jul 23rd 2008, 12:40 AM
I agree that the Holy Spirit indwells all believers. The Disciples received the Holy Spirit in John 20=yet there was more and that's what happened to the ...

The 120 in the upper room.

During this time, Peter stood up in the company—there were about 120 of them in the room at the time



The term baptism in the Holy Spirit is used by Jesus for this event in our lives-see Acts 1

must wait for what the Father promised: the promise you heard from me. John baptized in water; you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit. And soon."



Once we have received this baptism we most definitly need to keep on being filled-I see no conflict, most of us just use the term Jesus used for the first time the Lord fills us to overflowing with His Holy Spirit., but even the Bible uses different terms for this same event...see

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 10:45=47
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. 7 Now the men were about twelve in all.

In my study of Acts, I found that

1--There may easily be a break in time between chapters one and two; many commentators agree. Pentecost did not necessarily happen in the upper room with 120 present.
2--The Spirit baptism on Pentecost happened to the Apostles only. They were empowered in a unique way.
3--While many were surely saved afterwards, they were not empowered in this unique way.

If you tried to film a movie of Acts, you would run into some serious problems based solely on the text. You would have to fill in a lot of blanks. Pentecostals do so--but those fill-ins belong to them--not to Scripture.

MANY commentators agree that this special infilling and empowerment was for the Apostles. Do we see other believers doing miracles in Acts?

I know this doesn't sit well with signs and wonders folks. But put aside what your church teaches and go to the text and a host of commentators who have studied it carefully (I would exclude recent commentators, who may be fulfilling a recent agenda).

FWIW...

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:29 AM
2--The Spirit baptism on Pentecost happened to the Apostles only. They were empowered in a unique way.
3--While many were surely saved afterwards, they were not empowered in this unique way.


First I would say that Paul was an Apostle and not of the twelve or the day of Pentecost.

You must have missed these scriptures also as Peter sees on this day (Acts 11:15) also as baptism of the Holy Spirit and they are not of the twelve Apostles are they?

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

In Acts 11:15 when he speaks of at the beginning he is speaking of the day of Pentecost Acts 2:1. We can see that he says that this was prophesized by Joel (Acts 2:16) and Joel stated "I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh" and I see the word ALL here.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

I think Peter is clear in what he is saying and to disagree is to disagree with him... maybe he was wrong?

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

To me the baptism of the Holy Spirit is when you first receive the Holy Spirit (born of spirit) and the indwelling is the Holy Spirit within you after that point. The parable of the sower explains this pretty well.

Just the way i see it.

Michael

losthorizon
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:01 AM
To me the baptism of the Holy Spirit is when you first receive the Holy Spirit (born of spirit) and the indwelling is the Holy Spirit within you after that point. The parable of the sower explains this pretty well.

Just the way i see it.

Michael
I would submit that (scripturally) the believer receives the indwelling “gift of the Holy Spirit” at the point of immersion in water…those who believe, repent and are baptized “shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:37-38 (KJV)

godsgirl
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:51 PM
I received the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues, before I was baptised in water. The only requirement for this baptism is salvation.

RabbiKnife
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:53 PM
There is one faith, one baptism...

godsgirl
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:57 PM
There is one faith, one baptism...

Right-this is the One baptism that the Word tells us about in 1 Corinthians

For by One Spirit you were all baptised into one body.

The Holy Spirit does the baptising and the body is the element.

There is also water baptism
Another Christian does the baptising and water is the element

And the Baptism in the Spirit

Jesus does the baptising and the Holy Spirit is the element.

losthorizon
Jul 24th 2008, 01:28 AM
I received the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues, before I was baptised in water. The only requirement for this baptism is salvation.
Can you show me in the NT where all believers are commanded/instructed to be “baptized” in the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues? If I have not been so baptized and have never experienced “speaking in other tongues” what does that mean regarding my relationship with Jesus Christ? Do you believe the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4:5 is “baptism in the Holy Spirit”? Is the one baptism – “One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism” a baptism that all Christians must experience or is it optional?

SIG
Jul 24th 2008, 04:48 AM
SoC: First I would say that Paul was an Apostle and not of the twelve or the day of Pentecost.

SIG: I should have been more specific--the original 11 plus Matthias. The NT also refers to ten others--including Paul--as "apostles." But at this point, Paul was not yet saved...

SoC: You must have missed these scriptures also as Peter sees on this day (Acts 11:15) also as baptism of the Holy Spirit and they are not of the twelve Apostles are they?

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

In Acts 11:15 when he speaks of at the beginning he is speaking of the day of Pentecost Acts 2:1. We can see that he says that this was prophesized by Joel (Acts 2:16) and Joel stated "I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh" and I see the word ALL here.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

I think Peter is clear in what he is saying and to disagree is to disagree with him... maybe he was wrong?

SIG: Chapter 11 refers to the first post-Pentecost Gentiles saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. My post was referring to a special empowerment of the Apostles that other believers did NOT receive. There is no evidence that these Gentiles were so empowered.

SoC: Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

SIG: Certainly at Pentecost God opened the way to any and all of the saved to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Again--my post was referring to signs that seemingly only the Apostles did.

SoC: To me the baptism of the Holy Spirit is when you first receive the Holy Spirit (born of spirit) and the indwelling is the Holy Spirit within you after that point. The parable of the sower explains this pretty well

SIG: I agree.

SoC: Just the way i see it.

Michael

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 24th 2008, 07:27 AM
SIG: Chapter 11 refers to the first post-Pentecost Gentiles saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. My post was referring to a special empowerment of the Apostles that other believers did NOT receive. There is no evidence that these Gentiles were so empowered.


I think we agree. The gentiles did have the gift of tongues. I just see God giving the gifts to who he wishes and as in 1 Corinthians 12 all parts of the same body. I'm really not sure the Apostles were that different than others that recieved the gifts and were witnesses later. Weren't these just the first chosen to be witnesses? Baptized with the Holy Spirit just as others were later... but the first... and of course trained by the master while he was on the earth.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

The main difference is that he breathed on the first apostles and told them to wait for the power to come.

Intersting that there is no mention of anyone ever recieving the Holy Spirit after or during baptism in water anywhere in the Bible after Acts starts.

Michael

godsgirl
Jul 24th 2008, 08:12 PM
Can you show me in the NT where all believers are commanded/instructed to be “baptized” in the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues? If I have not been so baptized and have never experienced “speaking in other tongues” what does that mean regarding my relationship with Jesus Christ? Do you believe the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4:5 is “baptism in the Holy Spirit”? Is the one baptism – “One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism” a baptism that all Christians must experience or is it optional?


You make it sound like something that you "have" to do=It is not like that at all. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is a baptism for power-it will change you from the inside out. It will not make youi better or more spiritual than someone else-but it will make you a better you. Jesus said it was a promise from our Father-and our Father gives only good things-He told the disciples to not even begin their ministry until they received this..it was so important that the early church went around making sure that new Christians received it. The Holy Spirits purpose is to lift up Jesus-and that's what this baptism does it will make Jesus Christ more real and more personal to you than you can realise now. I personally feel that Jesus wants to baptise all believers in the Holy Spirit but most don't want it because they are afraid it's not right-satan has decieved much of the church and kept them from receiving the very thing that will give them the power Jesus wants them to have.

When the Bible speaks of the Holy Spirit baptising us into the body-this is what I believe happens at salvation-the Holy Spirit places us into the body of Christ. This is the One baptism that happens at salvation.

godsgirl
Jul 24th 2008, 08:16 PM
I think we agree. The gentiles did have the gift of tongues. I just see God giving the gifts to who he wishes and as in 1 Corinthians 12 all parts of the same body. I'm really not sure the Apostles were that different than others that recieved the gifts and were witnesses later. Weren't these just the first chosen to be witnesses? Baptized with the Holy Spirit just as others were later... but the first... and of course trained by the master while he was on the earth.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

The main difference is that he breathed on the first apostles and told them to wait for the power to come.

Intersting that there is no mention of anyone ever recieving the Holy Spirit after or during baptism in water anywhere in the Bible after Acts starts.

Michael

The tongues we receive when we're baptised in the Holy Spirit are not the same in purpose or use as the "gift" of tongues. The gifts are for 'when you come together" according to 1 Corinthians. All Christians who are baptised in the Holy Spirit can pray and praise in other tongues, but they are not all used in the public manifestation of tongues which the Bible calls 'the gift of tongues"

Also-the reason there is no mention afterwards is because the rest of the "letters" were written to Christians. People who had already been baptised in the Holy Spirit.

RabbiKnife
Jul 24th 2008, 08:20 PM
Sorry, but there is no textual support for that position.

And I believe in the gift of tongues.

godsgirl
Jul 24th 2008, 08:23 PM
Sorry, but there is no textual support for that position.

And I believe in the gift of tongues.

Me too!


Public Gift of Tongues

Spoken with interpretation to the church (Equal to prophecy-1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5))
To be interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5))
Edifies the church (when interpreted-1 Corinthians 14:4-5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A4-5))
A sign to unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A22))
Not given to all believers (1 Corinthians 12:30 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+12%3A30)))


Personal Prayer Tongue
Spoken privately to God (1 Corinthians 14:2 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A2))
No interpretation necessary (1 Corinthians 14:28 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A28))
Edifies the individual believer (1 Corinthians 14:4 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A4))
Can be manifested when no unbelievers are present (Acts 10:46 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+10%3A46); 19:6)
Should be desired and practiced by all Christians Mark 16:17 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Mark+16%3A17); 1 Corinthians 14:5 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Corinthians+14%3A5); Ephesians 6:18 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Ephesians+6%3A18); Jude 20 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Jude+20) ).

losthorizon
Jul 24th 2008, 10:05 PM
You make it sound like something that you "have" to do=It is not like that at all. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is a baptism for power-it will change you from the inside out.


The reason I asked you to show me in the NT where believers are commanded/instructed to be “baptized” in the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues is because the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4:5 is commanded by the Lord in the NT and the baptism of the Holy Spirit is nowhere commanded - it was a promise made and given to selected individuals. It would therefore appear to me that the *one baptism* is the baptism commanded to all believers – immersion in water - where all believers receive the Holy Spirit...
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Matt 28:18-19 (KJV)
According to Holy Writ – the only baptism for all believers is the baptism that puts the one who believes “into Christ’ – ie- baptism in water. It is at the point of immersion in water that the one who believes and repents receives the indwelling “gift of the Holy Spirit”.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 (KJV)This indwelling gift is given to ALL believers yet as you admit the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” is not received by ALL. Again, I would ask where and when are believers instructed on how to be baptized in the Holy Spirit? If I desire such a baptism how (scripturally) am I supposed to have this baptism?

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 24th 2008, 10:57 PM
You make it sound like something that you "have" to do=It is not like that at all. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is a baptism for power-it will change you from the inside out. It will not make youi better or more spiritual than someone else-but it will make you a better you. Jesus said it was a promise from our Father-and our Father gives only good things-He told the disciples to not even begin their ministry until they received this..it was so important that the early church went around making sure that new Christians received it. The Holy Spirits purpose is to lift up Jesus-and that's what this baptism does it will make Jesus Christ more real and more personal to you than you can realise now. I personally feel that Jesus wants to baptise all believers in the Holy Spirit but most don't want it because they are afraid it's not right-satan has decieved much of the church and kept them from receiving the very thing that will give them the power Jesus wants them to have.

When the Bible speaks of the Holy Spirit baptising us into the body-this is what I believe happens at salvation-the Holy Spirit places us into the body of Christ. This is the One baptism that happens at salvation.

I really can't agree more! Very well said!

I really like where you said "it will not make you better than someone else... it will make you a better you" and I have also experienced those that will deny the Spirit, thinking it might not be God.

I see three differnet kinds of tongues, one that you pray and sing to father with. One that you speak and others interpret. One that everyone heard them speak in thier own language. I have only experienced the first of these.

Michael

Ron Brown
Jul 24th 2008, 11:12 PM
Can you show me in the NT where all believers are commanded/instructed to be “baptized” in the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues? If I have not been so baptized and have never experienced “speaking in other tongues” what does that mean regarding my relationship with Jesus Christ? Do you believe the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4:5 is “baptism in the Holy Spirit”? Is the one baptism – “One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism” a baptism that all Christians must experience or is it optional?

The pentacostals have it wrong, because they don't read the original Greek manuscript languages. This is no Greek word for unknown languages in the original manuscripts. The Greek word used for tongues is "glossa"

glossa

1)the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech

2)the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

There is no such a thing as an unknown heavenly language in scripture. If you do see the word "unknown" in a particular translation it will always be in "italics" because it is not in the original Greek manuscripts.

Glossa can only mean the tongue in your mouth, or a known language in the Greek manuscripts. There is no greek word in scripture for unknown languages.

I was a member of an Assembly of God church for 16 years of my life, and though I never spoke in Glossolalia(unknown languages) my parents did.

My parents and I are no longer members of that church, and my parents now know that glossolalia is not from the holy spirit, but flesh induced gibberish instead, and the original Greek manuscript languages prove glossolalia to be a false practice in the church. If you want to know what the bible truely says, you must study the original manuscript languages.

godsgirl
Jul 24th 2008, 11:18 PM
He who speaks in a tongue, does not speak to man but to God, Indeed NO ONE understands him.


Sounds pretty plain to me. If that is what you mean by unknown tongue-then there it is. Plain as plain could be -right in the Word of God.

godsgirl
Jul 24th 2008, 11:27 PM
The reason I asked you to show me in the NT where believers are commanded/instructed to be “baptized” in the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues is because the “one baptism” of Ephesians 4:5 is commanded by the Lord in the NT and the baptism of the Holy Spirit is nowhere commanded - it was a promise made and given to selected individuals. It would therefore appear to me that the *one baptism* is the baptism commanded to all believers – immersion in water - where all believers receive the Holy Spirit...

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Matt 28:18-19 (KJV)
According to Holy Writ – the only baptism for all believers is the baptism that puts the one who believes “into Christ’ – ie- baptism in water. It is at the point of immersion in water that the one who believes and repents receives the indwelling “gift of the Holy Spirit”.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 (KJV)
This indwelling gift is given to ALL believers yet as you admit the “baptism of the Holy Spirit” is not received by ALL. Again, I would ask where and when are believers instructed on how to be baptized in the Holy Spirit? If I desire such a baptism how (scripturally) am I supposed to have this baptism?


You are right the baptism in the Holy Spirit is NOT a command, it is a promise--for those who will receive.

however, yes it was promised to all of us.

"for this promise is to you, to your children, and to all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call".

It is not a baptism by the Spirit it is a baptism by Jesus.

There is coming One who is mightier than I it is He, (Jesus) who baptises with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus told the disciples in John 20 to receive the Holy Spirit-yet there was more He had for them, what He called "the promise of the Father" in Acts 1 He told them to tarry in Jerusalem and wait for that promise-those who obeyed received., and at that time they began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Just because it is a promise doesn't mean that we do nothing to receive-it like salvation comes through faith. Look through the book of Acts-you will find that the first thing they wanted for their new converts was to have them receive this baptism-but it wasn't 'automatic" .

"how much more then, will your Father give the Holy Spirit to those that ask?"


All Christians are baptised by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ

"for by one Spirit you were all baptised into one body". This happens at the moment of salvation-the Holy Spirit brings us to the feet of Jesus and places us into the Body of Christ.


Water baptism is another issue and is not necessary for salvation-it is an act of obedience on our part-but does not save.


Michael-, I see three different kinds too-I have been used in the first two-and I want to be used in what ever way God has for me. Blessings to you.

Ron Brown
Jul 24th 2008, 11:39 PM
He who speaks in a tongue, does not speak to man but to God, Indeed NO ONE understands him.


Sounds pretty plain to me. If that is what you mean by unknown tongue-then there it is. Plain as plain could be -right in the Word of God.

Do you read the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek manuscript languages when you study scripture for yourself, or do you just go by whatever your church teaches you instead my friend?

1 Corinthians 14:2 is not talking about speaking in languages unknown to all men, but languages unknown to the people hearing the message. This is why Paul stresses that if you speak a language foreign to your audience, then you must have an interpreter to translate it. If I go to Russia on a mission trip, then I must bring an interpreter with me to translate my English messages into Russian so that the audience I am preaching to understands the message I am bringing.

In the KJV Bible "unknown" is in [italics] because the word is not in the original Greek manuscripts. Look for yourself if you don't believe me, it's not in the original manuscripts, because I have looked myself.

Corinthians was addressed to the Church in Corinth that Paul had established as a letter of correction for the churches being out of order, and practicing false teachings and occult practices. Corinth was a port city used as a World trading post, so people of all nations, tribes and tongues(languages) were coming in and out of the church in Corinth. People were giving messages in the Corinthian church from their own native languages, and the other people in the church had no idea what they were saying, because there were no interpreters available. This is why Paul said that the messenger is edified, but the rest of the church has no clue of what was said. Paul was a very educated Roman citizen, so he spoke more languages then anybody in the Corinthian church, and yet he said that two spoken legible words in church is better then hundreds of spoken un-legible words in church.

Never believe what is taught to you in your church, without testing it first according to scripture in the original manuscript languages.

godsgirl
Jul 24th 2008, 11:50 PM
Actually, yes Jesus is the One who taught me about the Holy Spirit baptism, my own church was Presbyterian and I learned, not from them, but from reading the word and in prayer.

I disagree with your "interpretation" of Pauls words-he said what he meant and meant what he said. And what He said was, "he who speaks in a tongue, speaks not to man but to God, indeed no one understands".

He also said that he prayed much in tongues-and not in some langauge he just happened to know-because he said, and I quote:

"if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful, so what shall I do? I will pray with my mind and I will pray with my spirit also, I will sing with my understanding and I will sing with my spirit also."

balance is the key-not only praying in tongues or only praying in understanding-but both!

The "gift" of tongues when brought before the assembly needs to be accompained by the companion gift of interpretation. This isn't merely understanding the words-but is i also "given by the Spirit".

These are "Spiritual Gifts" not natural abilities-see 1 Corinthians 12:1



I think your study of the "original langauges" leaves a lot to be desired. I'll trust what the Lord showed me any day over someone who says they know it all because they studied "origianal manuscript langauges".

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 12:05 AM
I think your study of the "original langauges" leaves a lot to be desired. I'll trust what the Lord showed me any day over someone who says they know it all because they studied "origianal manuscript langauges".

So, your idea of what you think the holy spirit is telling you and what you think the lord showed you trumps the authority of the Word of God? Joseph Smith said the same thing when he wrote the Book of Mormon.

The fact is, that unknown heavenly languages is not in the original Greek manuscripts, and this is the only authority we can go by, the word of God in the original manuscript languages. Your opinion on what you feel God is telling you, does not override the authority of the Greek manuscript languages. The word of God trumps my opinions and your opinions every time. I have not given you my opinion, but I have given you what "glossa" means in the Greek manuscript language, do with it what you will, but always test the spirits you communicate with according to the Word of God. Again, there is no mention of unknown languages to all of mankind in the Word of God, and the Greek clearly shows us this.

losthorizon
Jul 25th 2008, 12:14 AM
You are right the baptism in the Holy Spirit is NOT a command, it is a promise--for those who will receive.


Do you acknowledge that the “gift of the Holy Spirit” is received when the believer repents and is baptized in water per Acts 2:38? Is there a difference between the indwelling “gift of the Holy Spirit” and " the baptism of the Holy Spirit"? If yes – what are the differences? Is baptism in water (the ordinance) commanded for ALL believers..."go...teach...baptize" or is it optional? For the record - no one is saying baptism in water saves - it is the blood of Christ that finally saves all who will be saved.


All Christians are baptised by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ.
But I thought you said ALL Christians ARE NOT baptized with the Holy Spirit. And you never answered the question - If I desire such a baptism how (scripturally) am I supposed to have this baptism of the Holy Spirit?

godsgirl
Jul 25th 2008, 12:58 AM
So, your idea of what you think the holy spirit is telling you and what you think the lord showed you trumps the authority of the Word of God? Joseph Smith said the same thing when he wrote the Book of Mormon.

The fact is, that unknown heavenly languages is not in the original Greek manuscripts, and this is the only authority we can go by, the word of God in the original manuscript languages. Your opinion on what you feel God is telling you, does not override the authority of the Greek manuscript languages. The word of God trumps my opinions and your opinions every time. I have not given you my opinion, but I have given you what "glossa" means in the Greek manuscript language, do with it what you will, but always test the spirits you communicate with according to the Word of God. Again, there is no mention of unknown languages to all of mankind in the Word of God, and the Greek clearly shows us this.


I haven't said anything that disagrees with the Word of God. I haven't used the words "unknown" at all-that came from you. I merely repeated what the Word says,

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 01:13 AM
I haven't said anything that disagrees with the Word of God. I haven't used the words "unknown" at all-that came from you. I merely repeated what the Word says,

Do you pray in languages that you yourself do not understand?

If so, how do you know if you are saying something to God if you can't understand what you are saying? God is not the author of confusion.

You assume you are saying something to God through the holy Spirit, but since the gibberish you are speaking is not able to be understood by yourself or anybody else for that matter, you have no idea if you are speaking things that glorify God or not?

If you don't understand what you are saying, then don't say it. You will be judged according to every idle word you speak, and words you cannot understand or any other person cannot understand are idle, Matthew 12:36-37.

godsgirl
Jul 25th 2008, 01:27 AM
Do you acknowledge that the “gift of the Holy Spirit” is received when the believer repents and is baptized in water per Acts 2:38? Is there a difference between the indwelling “gift of the Holy Spirit” and " the baptism of the Holy Spirit"? If yes – what are the differences? Is baptism in water (the ordinance) commanded for ALL believers..."go...teach...baptize" or is it optional? For the record - no one is saying baptism in water saves - it is the blood of Christ that finally saves all who will be saved.



But I thought you said ALL Christians ARE NOT baptized with the Holy Spirit. And you never answered the question - If I desire such a baptism how (scripturally) am I supposed to have this baptism of the Holy Spirit?

No, I do not acnowledge that the gift of the Spirit (baptism in) is received when a beleiver repents and is baptised in water--I believe it is available then-but it is also available before baptism in water-see Acts 10. I believe that the Holy Spirit indwells the beleiver at the moment of salvation. Being baptised in water is an act of obedience to our Lord-it is not so we can get the "gift of the Holy Spirt".

Any born again believer can be baptised in the Holy Spirit-that's the only requirement, to be saved --period.



And I did tell you already how to receive-"talk to Jesus" He is the One who is the baptiser.


"IF you then being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more then will your Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ASK HIM?


If you really want to know how to receive the baptism in the Spirit you will have to talk to Jesus-He is the baptiser. I can only point to the Word and give you examples there of people receiving.
1. Acts 2:4
2. Acts 10:46
3. Acts 19:6

And I can tell you how it happened to me,


The Holy Spirit bapitses into the body of Christ --1 Corinthians 12:13 before there is any more confusion let it be known that I believe the Holy Spirit indwells the believer the very moment we are saved. Yet there is more.....

Jesus baptises in the Holy Spirit Mark 1:7

another Christian baptises in water. Acts 8:36

godsgirl
Jul 25th 2008, 01:33 AM
Do you pray in languages that you yourself do not understand?

If so, how do you know if you are saying something to God if you can't understand what you are saying? God is not the author of confusion.

You assume you are saying something to God through the holy Spirit, but since the gibberish you are speaking is not able to be understood by yourself or anybody else for that matter, you have no idea if you are speaking things that glorify God or not?

If you don't understand what you are saying, then don't say it. You will be judged according to every idle word you speak, and words you cannot understand or any other person cannot understand are idle, Matthew 12:36-37.


Oh I know whom I have believed. I can say like Paul, "If I pray in a tongue my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful so what shall I do? I will pray with my mind and I will pray with my spriit also, I will sing with my mind and I will sing with my spirit also." The Bible also says that the Holy Spirit gives us the words to say-so I'm not afraid that they are wrong ones. "and they began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them"

No one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed.

Remember, you also will be judged on every idle word you speak-including words on your posts.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 01:43 AM
Oh I know whom I have believed. I can say like Paul, "If I pray in a tongue my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful so what shall I do? I will pray with my mind and I will pray with my spriit also, I will sing with my mind and I will sing with my spirit also."

No one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed.

Remember, you also will be judged on every idle word you speak-including words on your posts.

This does not answer my question. Again, do you pray or speak with words you cannot understand? If so, then how do you know it's from God?

You don't know it's from God, you only assume it is from God. Again, God is not the author of confusion or misunderstanding. God only communicates to us with clarity through scripture, and he doesn't give us mystery gibberish words in the hope that they are form God because we can't understand them.

1of7000
Jul 25th 2008, 01:48 AM
Remember, you also will be judged on every idle word you speak-including words on your posts.
:rofl: right on! you go girl!! i'm prayin for you whether i understand what to pray for or not.;)

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 02:00 AM
Remember, you also will be judged on every idle word you speak-including words on your posts.

What is an idle word? I'll tell you what it is in the Greek manuscript language.

"argos" is the Greek word for idle. It means free from labor, lazy, without meaning.

So, I only speak words with meaning when preaching or praying, I don't speak fleshly gibberish words in unknown languages, in the hope that God might somehow understand them, because I sure don't. Again, i wouldn't say anything that I don't understand, and then hope it's from God, just in case it's not.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 02:10 AM
:rofl: right on! you go girl!! i'm prayin for you whether i understand what to pray for or not.;)

You don't need to pray in some gibberish unknown language in which you don't understand to get across to God what you need. If you pray to the father "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" as Christ told us to do, then it will relay just fine to the father just what you need, because God already knows what you need anyway.

Romans 8:26 reads "likewise the spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the spirit itself maketh intersession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Groanings in the Greek is "stenagmos" which means a sigh.

Uttered in the greek is "alaletos" which means not expressed in words.

So this has nothing to do with praying in any unknown language, because intercessory spiritual prayers cannot be spoken at all. They cannot be uttered or said with words.

losthorizon
Jul 25th 2008, 02:23 AM
No, I do not acnowledge that the gift of the Spirit (baptism in) is received when a beleiver repents and is baptised in water--I believe it is available then-but it is also available before baptism in water-see Acts 10. I believe that the Holy Spirit indwells the beleiver at the moment of salvation. Being baptised in water is an act of obedience to our Lord-it is not so we can get the "gift of the Holy Spirt".

Any born again believer can be baptised in the Holy Spirit-that's the only requirement, to be saved --period.



And I did tell you already how to receive-"talk to Jesus" He is the One who is the baptiser.


"IF you then being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more then will your Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ASK HIM?


If you really want to know how to receive the baptism in the Spirit you will have to talk to Jesus-He is the baptiser. I can only point to the Word and give you examples there of people receiving.
1. Acts 2:4
2. Acts 10:46
3. Acts 19:6

And I can tell you how it happened to me,


The Holy Spirit bapitses into the body of Christ --1 Corinthians 12:13 before there is any more confusion let it be known that I believe the Holy Spirit indwells the believer the very moment we are saved. Yet there is more.....

Jesus baptises in the Holy Spirit Mark 1:7

another Christian baptises in water. Acts 8:36
Then it is your notion that Peter was mistaken when he told those believers on the day of Pentecost that when they were willing to repent and be immersed in water they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? Isn’t that a fact “according to scripture in the original manuscript languages” as you would say? I have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and it was not some mystical process as you suggest – I received the Holy Spirit just as those 3000 souls did when they obyed the words of Peter - I believed, repented and was immersed in water in the name of God…I then received the Spirit of God...just as He has promised to ALL who obey His words...
“repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)

losthorizon
Jul 25th 2008, 02:26 AM
You don't need to pray in some gibberish unknown language in which you don't understand to get across to God what you need. If you pray to the father "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" as Christ told us to do, then it will relay just fine to the father just what you need, because God already knows what you need anyway.

Romans 8:26 reads "likewise the spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the spirit itself maketh intersession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Groanings in the Greek is "stenagmos" which means a sigh.

Uttered in the greek is "alaletos" which means not expressed in words.

So this has nothing to do with praying in any unknown language, because intercessory spiritual prayers cannot be spoken at all. They cannot be uttered or said with words.
Very well stated.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 02:34 AM
“repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)

True.

If you are speaking in some unknown gibberish language, it's not from the holy spirit, but it is from an impostor spirit that the apostle John warned us about.

Christianity has nothing to do with sensationalism in the form of flopping around on the floor, speaking in gibberesh that no man understands, running around the room in an altered state of consciousness, falling down and being pinned to the floor, etc................ If you have the holy spirit, you won't do any of these occult things.

Christianity is a sound, calm, intellectual relationship with Christ, and is not in any way confusing to others, or acting crazy, or getting yourself worked up into an altered state of consciousness in order to faint onto the floor or run around the room. True Christianity has nothing to do with your feelings and emotions, but rather your sound rational intellect.

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 25th 2008, 02:42 AM
This does not answer my question. Again, do you pray or speak with words you cannot understand? If so, then how do you know it's from God?

You don't know it's from God, you only assume it is from God. Again, God is not the author of confusion or misunderstanding. God only communicates to us with clarity through scripture, and he doesn't give us mystery gibberish words in the hope that they are form God because we can't understand them.

It's interesting that someone can make statements like these? We know what we are saying and what it means when we sing or or pray in tongues... we are praising God! Do you think we make up some song in giberish and sing to God? Can we repeat this language while not in prayer... no. What language do you think the choirs of angels sing in? Geek... English... German... Have you heard them as some of us has? We are taught of the Holy Spirit not by man.

From what I hear you are very close to blaspheme of the Holy Spirit... be careful!

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
Mark 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Just because you read something somewhere doesn't make it so... lets see the scriptures...

Michael

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 02:54 AM
It's interesting that someone can make statements like these? We know what we are saying and what it means when we sing or or pray in tongues... we are praising God! Do you think we make up some song in giberish and sing to God? Can we repeat this language while not in prayer... no. What language do you think the choirs of angels sing in? Geek... English... German... Have you heard them as some of us has? We are taught of the Holy Spirit not by man.

From what I hear you are very close to blaspheme of the Holy Spirit... be careful!

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
Mark 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Just because you read something somewhere doesn't make it so... lets see the scriptures...

Michael

Do you even know what blasphemy of the holy spirit is?

It's when the holy spirit reveals to you that Christ is the Messiah savior of the Earth, and yet you reject him, and say he is of Satan, just as most of the Pharisees did.

Again, there is no Greek word for unknown heavenly languages in the scriptures, so they do not exist in scripture. If you want to say that the holy spirit operates outside of scripture, that's your choice, but the fact is, there is no record in the Greek manuscripts of anybody speaking in a heavenly language. Every time a messenger Angel came to somebody in scripture to give them a message from God, he did not say Babbacanntoocatacatacata......and then tell the person to let the holy spirit translate the language for them. The messenger Angel always spoke in that persons own language. The same as when God spoke to Moses in the burning bush, etc............................

There is no record of anybody in the bible speaking in unknown heavenly languages, according to the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek manuscripts.

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 25th 2008, 03:06 AM
Then it is your notion that Peter was mistaken when he told those believers on the day of Pentecost that when they were willing to repent and be immersed in water they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? Isn’t that a fact “according to scripture in the original manuscript languages” as you would say? I have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and it was not some mystical process as you suggest – I received the Holy Spirit just as those 3000 souls did when they obyed the words of Peter - I believed, repented and was immersed in water in the name of God…I then received the Spirit of God...just as He has promised to ALL who obey His words...

“repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)


Again with the deceptive posts! I'm not going to get into another water baptism discussion with you and as well know there is no mention of WATER in Acts 2:38-39.

Why don't you show us a scripture after penticost that shows a person being baptized in water that recieves the Holy Spirit during or after a WATER baptism? Just one that has the word WATER. John made it clear "a man can recieve nothing unless it comes from heaven".

I'm not saying that a person cannot recieve the Holy Spirit when being baptized in water... but as we well know, we have examples of them recieving the Holy Spirit before (just believing) water baptism and long after water baptism as well as by the laying on of the hands. There is however not one scripture to support what you suggest... not one example after penticost of anyone recieving the Holy Spirit while being baptized in water. If you gonna quote some let us see the word WATER.

Give it up or a least be honest about about what the scriptures actually say. Here comes some commentary to support you... right?

John baptized in water and GodsGirl explained who baptizes with the Spirit "
And I did tell you already how to receive-"talk to Jesus" He is the One who is the baptiser.

Michael

losthorizon
Jul 25th 2008, 03:20 AM
Again with the deceptive posts! I'm not going to get into another water baptism discussion with you and as well know there is no mention of WATER in Acts 2:38-39.


Of course the baptism of Acts 2:38 is baptism in water – the church of God has taught this truth for 20 centuries and every believer recorded in the NT who obeyed the Lord in baptism received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Be baptized - See the notes on Mat_3:6, Mat_3:16. The direction which Christ gave to his apostles was that they should baptize all who believed, Mat_28:19; Mar_16:16. The Jews had not been baptized; and a baptism now would be a profession of the religion of Christ, or a declaration made before the world that they embraced Jesus as their Messiah. It was equivalent to saying that they should publicly and professedly embrace Jesus Christ as their Saviour. The gospel requires such a profession, and no one is at liberty to withhold it. A similar declaration is to be made to all who are inquiring the way to life. They are to exercise repentance; and then, without any unnecessary delay, to evince it by partaking of the ordinances of the gospel. If people are unwilling to profess religion, they have none. If they will not, in the proper way, show that they are truly attached to Christ, it is proof that they have no such attachment. Baptism is the application of water, as expressive of the need of purification, and as emblematic of the influences from God that can alone cleanse the soul. It is also a form of dedication to the service of God. ~ Albert Barnes on the Book of Acts


Ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost - If ye faithfully use the sign, ye shall get the substance. Receive the baptism, in reference to the removal of sins, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost, by whose agency alone the efficacy of the blood of the covenant is applied, and by whose refining power the heart is purified. It was by being baptized in the name of Christ that men took upon themselves the profession of Christianity; and it was in consequence of this that the disciples of Christ were called Christians. ~ Adam Clarke, Acts 2:38

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 25th 2008, 03:23 AM
Do you even know what blasphemy of the holy spirit is?

It's when the holy spirit reveals to you that Christ is the Messiah savior of the Earth, and yet you reject him, and say he is of Satan, just as most of the Pharisees did.


That's funny i read it like it is "Mark 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit. " when you tell someone that they have an unclean Spirit... Christ or anyone else and the spirit they have is the Holy Spirit, it is blaspheme of the Holy Spirit.



Again, there is no Greek word for unknown heavenly languages in the scriptures, so they do not exist in scripture. If you want to say that the holy spirit operates outside of scripture, that's your choice, but the fact is, there is no record in the Greek manuscripts of anybody speaking in a heavenly language. Every time a messenger Angel came to somebody in scripture to give them a message from God, he did not say Babbacanntoocatacatacata......and then tell the person to let the holy spirit translate the language for them. The messenger Angel always spoke in that persons own language. The same as when God spoke to Moses in the burning bush, etc............................

There is no record of anybody in the bible speaking in unknown heavenly languages, according to the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek manuscripts.

Here is an example that I would love to hear your new interpetation of:

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

glōssa

1) the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
2) a tongue
a) the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

Let's hear the new scripture rewritten... I can't wait!

BTW: Who said anyone was rolling on or pinned to the floor? YOU!

Michael

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 25th 2008, 03:34 AM
Of course the baptism of Acts 2:38 is baptism in water – the church of God has taught this truth for 20 centuries and every believer recorded in the NT who obeyed the Lord in baptism received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If you can't do it in your own words you are most likley taught by man and not God... the words you speak are from man. I will not read the commentaries you post.

The only of course here is the obvious lack of a scripture to support your arguement like I asked... just one example after penticost of anyone recieving the Holy Spirit while being baptized in water.

Michael

1of7000
Jul 25th 2008, 03:42 AM
True.

If you are speaking in some unknown gibberish language, it's not from the holy spirit, but it is from an impostor spirit that the apostle John warned us about.

Christianity has nothing to do with sensationalism in the form of flopping around on the floor, speaking in gibberesh that no man understands, running around the room in an altered state of consciousness, falling down and being pinned to the floor, etc................ If you have the holy spirit, you won't do any of these occult things.

Christianity is a sound, calm, intellectual relationship with Christ, and is not in any way confusing to others, or acting crazy, or getting yourself worked up into an altered state of consciousness in order to faint onto the floor or run around the room. True Christianity has nothing to do with your feelings and emotions, but rather your sound rational intellect.

and there is a statement that declares both stops of the swinging pendulum. it is in the balance that christianity lies. i am assuming that you have never been to a believers meeting where the power of God was manifested in a dignified manner. quite frankly i would be put off too if the human madness that some attribute to God's power was displayed. but also to become overly intellectual is to distance yourself from our heavenly Father by denying His power within you. all things are to be done decently and in order and the immediate context is ICorinthians 14 discussing the operation of God's power. and remember if you are not operating God's power lucifer is allowed to operate his.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 04:04 AM
That's funny i read it like it is "Mark 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit. " when you tell someone that they have an unclean Spirit... Christ or anyone else and the spirit they have is the Holy Spirit, it is blaspheme of the Holy Spirit.



Here is an example that I would love to hear your new interpetation of:

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

glōssa

1) the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
2) a tongue
a) the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

Let's hear the new scripture rewritten... I can't wait!

BTW: Who said anyone was rolling on or pinned to the floor? YOU!

Michael

In 1 Cor 13:1 Paul is speaking in a superlative to get his point across. A superlative is using the highest degree of adjectives and adverbs to show the greatest of quality. Paul says in 1 Cor 13:1 "Though, I speak"

Though in the Greek is "ean" It's a conjuction. It means if, or in case. So Paul again is not saying that he speaks in an Angelic language, but he is using a superlative to describe a great message from God.

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 25th 2008, 04:19 AM
In 1 Cor 13:1 Paul is speaking in a superlative to get his point across. A superlative is using the highest degree of adjectives and adverbs to show the greatest of quality. Paul says in 1 Cor 13:1 "Though, I speak"

Though in the Greek is "ean" It's a conjuction. It means if, or in case. So Paul again is not saying that he speaks in an Angelic language, but he is using a superlative to describe a great message from God.

Well that makes sense so if we replace Though with if or in case it will make sense... so let's see how it works.

KJV
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

I believe this would then be the Ron Brown versions:
1 Corinthians 13:1 If, I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1 Corinthians 13:1 In case, I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Nice try but I don't think it's that easy. Maybe you will need to rewrite the whole scripture?

Michael

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 04:35 AM
Well that makes sense so if we replace Though with if or in case it will make sense... so let's see how it works.

KJV
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

I believe this would then be the Ron Brown versions:
1 Corinthians 13:1 If, I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1 Corinthians 13:1 In case, I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Nice try but I don't think it's that easy. Maybe you will need to rewrite the whole scripture?

Michael

You really don't understand how descriptive language works, do you?

Do you study the NT scriptures in the Greek? If so, then show me where in scripture, unknown heavenly language is in the Greek? I can't find it, but if you will show me which scripture it is in, I will recant what I have said about it, and believe it's from God. Thanks.:)

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 25th 2008, 05:07 AM
You really don't understand how descriptive language works, do you?


Sure I do... you think it describes this and I think it describes that.

I could easily say you think it describes what man taught you and I think it describes what the Holy Spirit taught me.



Do you study the NT scriptures in the Greek? If so, then show me where in scripture, unknown heavenly language is in the Greek? I can't find it, but if you will show me which scripture it is in, I will recant what I have said about it, and believe it's from God. Thanks.:)

KJV
1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.

I believe this would then be the Ron Brown version taking out the words that are not in the Greek:
1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an tongue, by two, or at the most three, and by course; and let one interpret.

The trouble with that is sure we could say that "[B]speak in an tongue" is just talking about another language but when we read it context of the chapter that is not what we are talking about is it?

Chapter 14 is all about spiritual gifts in the church and not about other carnal languages.

Michael

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 05:26 AM
Sure I do... you think it describes this and I think it describes that.

I could easily say you think it describes what man taught you and I think it describes what the Holy Spirit taught me.



KJV
1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.

I believe this would then be the Ron Brown version taking out the words that are not in the Greek:
1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an tongue, by two, or at the most three, and by course; and let one interpret.

The trouble with that is sure we could say that "[B]speak in an tongue" is just talking about another language but when we read it context of the chapter that is not what we are talking about is it?

Chapter 14 is all about spiritual gifts in the church and not about other carnal languages.

Michael

Why is unknown in [italics] in the KJV Bible ?

It's because the translators added it, hence it's italics.

Unknown is not in the Greek manuscripts, hence it being in italics[].

The thing is, the KJV translators had good intentions when adding [unknown] to their translation. It was to emphasize that the language was unknown to the people that were being spoken to, not that is was unknown to the speaker.

Again, show me unknown tongue in the Greek manuscripts that is not in italics, you can't.

Why do you think the NIV doesn't use unknown tongues in it's translation? It's because the NIV translators only use the Greek manuscripts in their translation.

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 25th 2008, 06:36 AM
Why is unknown in [italics] in the KJV Bible ?

It's because the translators added it, hence it's italics.

Unknown is not in the Greek manuscripts, hence it being in italics[].

The thing is, the KJV translators had good intentions when adding [unknown] to their translation. It was to emphasize that the language was unknown to the people that were being spoken to, not that is was unknown to the speaker.

Again, show me unknown tongue in the Greek manuscripts that is not in italics, you can't.

Why do you think the NIV doesn't use unknown tongues in it's translation? It's because the NIV translators only use the Greek manuscripts in their translation.

I think we all get that the KJV translators added words to the language and they are in italics, that's not the problem. Even when we read the NIV it is still is quite obvious what they are discussing... spiritual gifts. You cannot remove the context.

NIV
1Cr 14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

1Cr 14:2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

1Cr 14:3 But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort.

1Cr 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

1Cr 14:5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

I can't understand how anyone could interpret tongues as not a spiritual gift of God 1Cr 14:2 do we pray to God in Spanish?

It is too bad you will probably never experience any of this but so be it.

I think we have gone far enough away from the thread topic here and we should probably stop. If you think there is no such thing as speaking, praying or singing in tongues that is fine but some of us know this to be true and it has been revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. I can truly say I never asked God for it as it was something I never expected and I never knew anyone to do it before it happened to me.

Michael

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 07:06 AM
I think we all get that the KJV translators added words to the language and they are in italics, that's not the problem. Even when we read the NIV it is still is quite obvious what they are discussing... spiritual gifts. You cannot remove the context.

NIV
1Cr 14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

1Cr 14:2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

1Cr 14:3 But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort.

1Cr 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

1Cr 14:5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

I can't understand how anyone could interpret tongues as not a spiritual gift of God 1Cr 14:2 do we pray to God in Spanish?

It is too bad you will probably never experience any of this but so be it.

I think we have gone far enough away from the thread topic here and we should probably stop. If you think there is no such thing as speaking, praying or singing in tongues that is fine but some of us know this to be true and it has been revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. I can truly say I never asked God for it as it was something I never expected and I never knew anyone to do it before it happened to me.

Michael

I never said that the gift of tongues(known languages) was not a spiritual gift.

Let me give you a Biblical lesson on the spiritual gifts, and their order of importance to the Church.

1 Corinthians 12:28.

And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

The Greek word for "first" used in this passage of scripture listing the spiritual gifts of the Church is "proton" which means 1st in rank. So as you can see, tongues is the least important gift, because it is listed last. The Greek word for "tongues" in this verse is"glossa" which means languages, not unknown languages from heaven.

Also in 1 Corinthians 12:10 which reads: to another the working of miracles, to another prophesy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different "kinds" of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

The Greek word used for "kinds" in this verse is "Genos" from which the English word genealogy originates, and it means "nationality, tribe, nation." So kinds of languages(glossa) in this verse on spiritual gifts is clearly talking about known languages from every nation aqnd tribe on Earth. And interpretation of these languages(glossa) is interpretation of known languages.

The Greek manuscripts are your friend, and will open up the truth of the NT to you.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 07:12 AM
If you think there is no such thing as speaking, praying or singing in tongues that is fine but some of us know this to be true and it has been revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. I can truly say I never asked God for it as it was something I never expected and I never knew anyone to do it before it happened to me.

Michael

I was a member of an Assembly of God church from the age of 16-33 years old, so I know all about the Pentecostal version of tongues. The problem was that the pastor and deacons, as well as most of the congregation were clueless about the original Greek manuscript language, hence their mis-interpretation of the scriptures concerning the spiritual gifts. They always ignored 1 Cor 12:28 because it lists tongues as the least important spiritual gift, so they never preached or taught this scripture in Sunday School or Church. They also had no idea what tongue in the Greek means.

NightWatchman
Jul 25th 2008, 08:12 AM
I was a member of an Assembly of God church from the age of 16-33 years old, so I know all about the Pentecostal version of tongues. The problem was that the pastor and deacons, as well as most of the congregation were clueless about the original Greek manuscript language, hence their mis-interpretation of the scriptures concerning the spiritual gifts. They always ignored 1 Cor 12:28 because it lists tongues as the least important spiritual gift, so they never preached or taught this scripture in Sunday School or Church. They also had no idea what tongue in the Greek means.

It seems that you look down on people who don't study Greek, or know it as well as you do.

Is being (or sounding) smarter your goal here?

In another thread, you gave me a clear English translation of Scripture, and it made perfect sense. I don't believe I have to know Greek to be an informed Christian, thanks to the grace of God. I read the Bible in the language I understand--English.

godsgirl
Jul 25th 2008, 10:52 AM
I was a member of an Assembly of God church from the age of 16-33 years old, so I know all about the Pentecostal version of tongues. The problem was that the pastor and deacons, as well as most of the congregation were clueless about the original Greek manuscript language, hence their mis-interpretation of the scriptures concerning the spiritual gifts. They always ignored 1 Cor 12:28 because it lists tongues as the least important spiritual gift, so they never preached or taught this scripture in Sunday School or Church. They also had no idea what tongue in the Greek means.


Actually, when the Pharisees were warned by Jesus to be careful not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit -they were not turning down salvation. They were crediting the devil with the works of God

No, you do not-you never once have given scriptures for your hateful speech, you just keep saying how smart you are and then "prove" it by adding your words to the Bible.

you keep saying that the word "unknown" shouldn't be in the Bible? So WHAT! It doesn't change the Word of God at all,

Paul sitll said, "if I pray in a tongue my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful, so what shall I do? I will pray with my mind and I will also pray with my spirit"

Oh brother! You are the one that is clueless, Tongues is listed last-big deal. In scripture just because something is listed last-means nothing, besides "least gifts from God"????? yoiu may consider yourself some kind of Greek scholar but you don't have a clue.


Which of these three is listed last-'and now abide faith, hope, and love"


Where do you find Paul warning us of "fake tongues".

You may not believe that tongues are real, for today, and available-to all Christians, and that's ok-but when it all comes down, you've only given your opinion. You don't have Bible to justify your beliefs. So your opinion and a few dollars will buy you a Bible-read it and believe it.

godsgirl
Jul 25th 2008, 11:10 AM
Then it is your notion that Peter was mistaken when he told those believers on the day of Pentecost that when they were willing to repent and be immersed in water they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? Isn’t that a fact “according to scripture in the original manuscript languages” as you would say? I have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and it was not some mystical process as you suggest – I received the Holy Spirit just as those 3000 souls did when they obyed the words of Peter - I believed, repented and was immersed in water in the name of God…I then received the Spirit of God...just as He has promised to ALL who obey His words...

“repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)



So are you saying one must be baptised in water to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? How did you know you received? How did those in the Bible know? How did the Jewish believers know in Acts 10 that the Gentiles had received? How did they receive BEFORE they were baptised if Peter meant that one had to be baptised in water first?

losthorizon
Jul 25th 2008, 12:27 PM
So are you saying one must be baptised in water to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?


Yes – that’s exactly what I am saying because that is exactly what the Book says. I would challenge you to provide scriptural support that the penitent believer receives the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit in any other way that at his/her conversion when he/she “obeys from the heart that form of doctrine” once delivered to the saints. And the Holy Spirit says...
…”repent and be baptized…you shall receive the gist of the Holy Spirit…and the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.” (Acts 2)

losthorizon
Jul 25th 2008, 12:39 PM
If you can't do it in your own words you are most likley taught by man and not God... the words you speak are from man. I will not read the commentaries you post.


I offer the words of commentators because your claim is so unusual – I don’t think I have run across anyone other that you who denies the reality that the baptism spoken of in Acts 2:38 is anything but immersion in water. In every conversion recorded in the Bible the one converted is immersed in water for the remission of sins and for receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit – we know this because Peter (speaking by the Holy Spirit) tells us this is so – the believer who repents and is baptized in water receives the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is there in black and white (Acts 2:38).

We see this when the eunuch was converted by Philip – the gospel of Christ was preached – he believed – he repented – he said, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?” – and he was baptized for the remission of sins and to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. He arose from the water a “new man in Christ Jesus” and went on his way rejoicing. If you still do not agree that the eunuch was dunked in real water let me know and I can go back over it for you…
As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"[f] 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. (Acts 8)

Whispering Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 01:17 PM
True Christianity has nothing to do with your feelings and emotions, but rather your sound rational intellect.

I could not disagree with you more. Where in the Bible do you get that God wants us to be these cold, emotionless statues? Doesn't the Bible tell us to shout for joy?

If I had no feeling or emotion about a God who lifted me up out of the horrible pit I was in and saved me, I think that would be cause to check my salvation.

godsgirl
Jul 25th 2008, 02:19 PM
Yes – that’s exactly what I am saying because that is exactly what the Book says. I would challenge you to provide scriptural support that the penitent believer receives the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit in any other way that at his/her conversion when he/she “obeys from the heart that form of doctrine” once delivered to the saints. And the Holy Spirit says...

…”repent and be baptized…you shall receive the gist of the Holy Spirit…and the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.” (Acts 2)



First of all, I do believe we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation-however, that moment happens before we are baptised in water....and doesn't negate the fact that there is more, what the Bible calls, the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 25th 2008, 02:58 PM
I never said that the gift of tongues(known languages) was not a spiritual gift.

Let me give you a Biblical lesson on the spiritual gifts, and their order of importance to the Church.

1 Corinthians 12:28.

And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

The Greek word for "first" used in this passage of scripture listing the spiritual gifts of the Church is "proton" which means 1st in rank. So as you can see, tongues is the least important gift, because it is listed last. The Greek word for "tongues" in this verse is"glossa" which means languages, not unknown languages from heaven.

Also in 1 Corinthians 12:10 which reads: to another the working of miracles, to another prophesy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different "kinds" of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

The Greek word used for "kinds" in this verse is "Genos" from which the English word genealogy originates, and it means "nationality, tribe, nation." So kinds of languages(glossa) in this verse on spiritual gifts is clearly talking about known languages from every nation aqnd tribe on Earth. And interpretation of these languages(glossa) is interpretation of known languages.

The Greek manuscripts are your friend, and will open up the truth of the NT to you.

Well all I'm going to say is you don't know the difference between spiritual and natural as we were talking about a spiritual gifts... singing or speaking to God in another language. Do you think we should pray in Spanish in another known language as you suggest.

1Cr 14:2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

Explain the scripture above. Why would we speak in another known language to God?

I guess the gift of healing must be the ability to place bandages on cuts?

Your interpetations are quite amusing as you still haven't presented any scripture to backup anything you say. If you take this scripture out of context to change its meaning and ignore the rest that show that it is something spiritual, it must be correct! WOW!

We are way off the topic here so make your point if you have one. We are all able to look up the Greek on any scripture... so I would skip that point!

Michael

godsgirl
Jul 25th 2008, 03:06 PM
It seems obvious to me, as I’m sure it does to others, that all efforts of trying to explain the phenomenon of tongues to those who have not had the experience, is very much akin to explaining the things of God to someone who is unsaved.

How does one explain the virgin birth, the God-Man, or miracles? How can Someone’s blood wash a heart? How is it possible to be “born again?” How can God live inside us? How do you KNOW all this has taken place? And the questions go on and on.

The truth is, although that person may know the Bible and think he fully understands, until that unsaved person acts in faith and becomes saved, he will never really understand. Then, having experienced the new birth through that faith, he will KNOW his heart is washed, and will KNOW he is new, even though intellectual understanding may take some time.

It is the same story here. Those who have not spoken in tongues have difficulty understanding this work of the Holy Spirit even though they may think they do.

losthorizon
Jul 25th 2008, 03:08 PM
First of all, I do believe we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation-however, that moment happens before we are baptised in water....and doesn't negate the fact that there is more, what the Bible calls, the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
But how do you explain Peter's inspired words that belief, repentance and baptism (all three) precede the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit? Was he incorrect?
…”repent and be baptized…you shall receive the gist of the Holy Spirit…and the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.” (Acts 2)

godsgirl
Jul 25th 2008, 03:12 PM
But how do you explain Peter's inspired words that belief, repentance and baptism (all three) precede the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit? Was he incorrect?

…”repent and be baptized…you shall receive the gist of the Holy Spirit…and the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.” (Acts 2)


Peter didn't say "indwelling" you've added that word. I've already stated that I believe all believers-baptised in the Spirit or not, baptised in water or not-are already indwelt by the Spirit.

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 25th 2008, 03:19 PM
I offer the words of commentators because your claim is so unusual – I don’t think I have run across anyone other that you who denies the reality that the baptism spoken of in Acts 2:38 is anything but immersion in water. In every conversion recorded in the Bible the one converted is immersed in water for the remission of sins and for receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit – we know this because Peter (speaking by the Holy Spirit) tells us this is so – the believer who repents and is baptized in water receives the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is there in black and white (Acts 2:38).

Knock it off, there is no WATER mationed in Acts 2:38 as you are quite well aware! Show me just one scripture that says once you are baptized in WATER you will recieve the Holy Spirit.



We see this when the eunuch was converted by Philip – the gospel of Christ was preached – he believed – he repented – he said, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?” – and he was baptized for the remission of sins and to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. He arose from the water a “new man in Christ Jesus” and went on his way rejoicing. If you still do not agree that the eunuch was dunked in real water let me know and I can go back over it for you…

As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"[f] 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. (Acts 8)


Yes the eunuch was dunked in water I missed where it said the eunuch received the Holy Spirit... because it is not there!

Quit adding words to the bible! You can beleive that every baptism in the bible is in water if you like but that is because you ignore the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You also know that the bible supports receiving the Holy Spirit without water baptism (need the scripture?). The bible also states that some were baptized in water and did not recieve the Holy Spirit (need the scripture?)... you know the scriptures why not believe them? You won't discuss those and just point back to Acts 2:38 which doesn't mention water at all.

Why don't you show us a scripture after penticost that shows a person being baptized in water that recieves the Holy Spirit during or after a WATER baptism? Just one that has the word WATER. John made it clear "a man can recieve nothing unless it comes from heaven".

I see no point going over this again as you know the scriptures.

Michael

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 25th 2008, 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Brown http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1722762#post1722762)
True Christianity has nothing to do with your feelings and emotions, but rather your sound rational intellect.


I could not disagree with you more. Where in the Bible do you get that God wants us to be these cold, emotionless statues? Doesn't the Bible tell us to shout for joy?

If I had no feeling or emotion about a God who lifted me up out of the horrible pit I was in and saved me, I think that would be cause to check my salvation.

I will back that up with some scriptures:

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

You will never know God without love!

Michael

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 07:12 PM
Well all I'm going to say is you don't know the difference between spiritual and natural as we were talking about a spiritual gifts... singing or speaking to God in another language. Do you think we should pray in Spanish in another known language as you suggest.

1Cr 14:2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

Explain the scripture above. Why would we speak in another known language to God?

I guess the gift of healing must be the ability to place bandages on cuts?

Your interpetations are quite amusing as you still haven't presented any scripture to backup anything you say. If you take this scripture out of context to change its meaning and ignore the rest that show that it is something spiritual, it must be correct! WOW!

We are way off the topic here so make your point if you have one. We are all able to look up the Greek on any scripture... so I would skip that point!

Michael

1 Corinthians 14 is a corrective letter written by Paul to the church in Corinth for abusing and using the gift of being multi-lingual, just as Paul was multi-lingual. Paul spoke more languages then anybody in the Corinthian church, but Paul understood that if he spoke Aramaic in front of a congregation of people who only spoke Greek, that Paul would be preaching in vain. This is why Paul said that if you speak in a language that the audience doesn't speak, you must have an interpreter to interpret the language into the language of the congregation.

Break down the entire 14th chapter of 1 Corinthians into the Greek(I have) and Paul's intention with the gift of being multi-lingual(glossa) becomes crystal clear.

I had to do this for my mom and dad, because both of them used to speak in pentacostal tongues. Both of them told me they couldn't explain why they spoke in pentacostal tongues, they said it just happened to them when they were praying. The problem was that while they were praying in the sensationalistic pentacostal church services, they were entering a state of altered consciousness, and then using their flesh to conjure up the repetitive gibberish that is the pentacostal tongue.

Once I broke first Corinthians chapter 14 down to my parents word for word in the Greek, they understood that what they were doing was in the flesh, and not in the spirit, and they no longer attend pentacostal churches, and they no longer practice percieved spiritual gifts with no Biblical grounding at all, and allowing themselves to enter an altered state of consciousness through repetitive gibberish in the same way both voodoo shamans and Native American shamans do.

I also showed them several psychological studies on pentacostal glossolalia(unknown) tongues being compared to the glossolalia tongues of Native American peyote cults, shamans in the Sudan, the Shango cult of the West Coast of Africa, the Voodoo cult of Hati, the Aborigines of Australia, the shamans of Siberia, and the Tibetan monks. All of these different groups who practice unknown languages were tape recorded during their practice, and then were compared to one another. The study showed that all of these groups enter an altered state of consciousness with repetitive gibberish, and that all of their gibberish sounds basicaly the exact same. You couldn't tell the difference between pentacostal tongues and voodoo cult tongues for example.

The behavioral research study showed that glossolalia usually occurs as part of a larger condition of hysterical, dissociative, or trance states, or it may occur completely alone. Glossolalia may be deviant behavior due to abnormality of the mind, or it may be normal "expected" behavior, depending on the social and cultural environment. Glossolalia is a form of partially developed speech in which the thought-speech apparatus of the person is used for a variety if internal mental functions.

In conclusion, it's not from God, it's from the flesh, or possibly even worse, it's from familiar demonic spirits.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Brown http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1722762#post1722762)
True Christianity has nothing to do with your feelings and emotions, but rather your sound rational intellect.



I will back that up with some scriptures:

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

You will never know God without love!

Michael

And love is not an emotion, it's an action.

Whispering Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 07:29 PM
And love is not an emotion, it's an action.

Oh, but it IS an emotion, otherwise I would not weep as I do when I think of Jesus Christ and all that He has done for me.

King David, the man after God's own heart, was certainly emotional when it came to His Lord. He even danced before the Lord with all his might!

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 07:40 PM
Oh, but it IS an emotion, otherwise I would not weep as I do when I think of Jesus Christ and all that He has done for me.

King David, the man after God's own heart, was certainly emotional when it came to His Lord. He even danced before the Lord with all his might!

No, it's an action. I'll give you a quick grammar lesson.

The Hebrew word for love is "ahab", and it's a verb. The Greek word for love is "agapao", and it's a verb.

Here is the definition of a VERB: A word (part of speech) that denotes an action.

Again, love is an action, not an emotion.

Whispering Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 07:49 PM
No, it's an action. I'll give you a quick grammar lesson.

The Hebrew word for love is "ahab", and it's a verb. The Greek word for love is "agapao", and it's a verb.

Here is the definition of a VERB: A word (part of speech) that denotes an action.

Again, love is an action, not an emotion.

God IS love. God is not a verb. He is a Person. ;)

Whispering Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 07:52 PM
No, it's an action. I'll give you a quick grammar lesson.

The Hebrew word for love is "ahab", and it's a verb. The Greek word for love is "agapao", and it's a verb.

Here is the definition of a VERB: A word (part of speech) that denotes an action.

Again, love is an action, not an emotion.

Are you seriously saying you feel nothing for the Lord? Am I missing something here?

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 07:54 PM
God IS love. God is not a verb. He is a Person. ;)

God is indeed a person, not a human person with a flesh body, God transcends humanity, although humanity is created in the image of God.

God is just as personal as you or I, so God is a person, just not a person in a human body, and I have a personal relationship with God through his son Christ Jesus, who has a perfect transcended human body.

Whispering Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 07:59 PM
God is just as personal as you or I, so God is a person, just not a person in a human body, and I have a personal relationship with God through his son Christ Jesus, who has a perfect transcended human body.

You have a relationship, but it involves no feelings or emotions?

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 07:59 PM
Are you seriously saying you feel nothing for the Lord? Am I missing something here?

Mormons say they love God, but is it with emotion or action?

Muslims say they love God, but is it with emotion, or action?

Emotions will have you landing right into the lap of a cult, because your emotions will lie to you. Emotions will allow a 14 year old girl to give up her virginity to some 16 year old kid because her emotions lied to her.


God put his "agapao" love into action in the form of Christ Jesus. God doesn't show his love for us in emotion, he shows his love for us in action, in the form of Christ.

Whispering Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 08:03 PM
Mormons say they love God, but is it with emotion or action?

Muslims say they love God, but is it with emotion, or action?

Emotions will have you landing right into the lap of a cult, because your emotions will lie to you. Emotions will allow a 14 year old girl to give up her virginity to some 16 year old kid because her emotions lied to her.

So just because there are cults and vulnerable 16 year old girls, I'm supposed to shut off all my emotions toward God? That sounds reactionary to me.

Was King David wrong for dancing before the Lord with all his might? Were the Israelites wrong for shouting for joy so loudly the ground shook?


God put his "agapao" love into action in the form of Christ Jesus. God doesn't show his love for us in emotion, he shows his love for us in action, in the form of Christ.

Jesus Christ wept for those whom He loved in Scripture. Sounds pretty emotional to me.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 08:03 PM
You have a relationship, but it involves no feelings or emotions?

No. I show my love through action or "agapao" in the Greek. God doesn't care how I feel about him, he cares what I do for him. Action speaks louder then emotion my friend. I can tell God I love him even by breaking down in tears and weeping, but if i don't show God through my actions that I love him, my emotions mean nothing but hollow lies.

Do you show your children you love them through emotions, or through actions?

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 08:05 PM
S
Jesus Christ wept for those He loved in Scripture. Sounds pretty emotional to me.

Did his weeping save them? No.

Did his actions on the cross save them? Yes.

Whispering Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 08:10 PM
Did his weeping save them? No.

Did his actions on the cross save them? Yes.

What's your point?

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 08:13 PM
What's your point?

My point is that God's agapao(it's a verb) love is not an emotion, it's an action. You haven't gotten this simple concept yet?:confused

Whispering Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 08:20 PM
No. I show my love through action or "agapao" in the Greek. God doesn't care how I feel about him, he cares what I do for him. Action speaks louder then emotion my friend. I can tell God I love him even by breaking down in tears and weeping, but if i don't show God through my actions that I love him, my emotions mean nothing but hollow lies.

Do you show your children you love them through emotions, or through actions?

So your Christian life consists of nothing more than working for God? There's no intimate fellowship, no enjoying His presence, no tears of thanksgiving and gratitude, no being overcome by joy? Nothing other than works?

When we have love in our hearts for God, we are going to act. I never said otherwise. But your notion that our Christian walks are nothing more than working for God is not right. God meant for us to enjoy Him and all that He is. He meant for us to love Him passionately and intimately.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 08:29 PM
So your Christian life consists of nothing more than working for God? There's no intimate fellowship, no enjoying His presence, no tears of thanksgiving and gratitude, no being overcome by joy? Nothing other than works?

When we have love in our hearts for God we are going to act. I never said otherwise. But your notion that our Christian walks are nothing more than working for God is not right. God meant for us to enjoy Him and all that He is. He meant for us to love Him passionately and intimately.

How do you show a person you love them passionately? Through tears? through smiles? Or through actions?

Whispering Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 08:44 PM
My point is that God's agapao(it's a verb) love is not an emotion, it's an action. You haven't gotten this simple concept yet?:confused

Yes, I understand the concept. Love is a verb. It is because of the deep and abiding love I have for Him that I serve Him.

Works without a love for God are worthless. Those who love God will work.

Whispering Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 08:46 PM
How do you show a person you love them passionately? Through tears? through smiles? Or through actions?

All of the above.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 08:53 PM
All of the above.

My father is a born from above Christian, and I have never seen him cry in church or at home, and he rarely smiles. He is a very unemotional person. Does this mean he doesn't love God, Christ, my mom, or me? Again, emotions can't be trusted to prove anything, but actions can. I have seen men in my church cry their eyeballs out at the altar, and then they end up in a bar getting hammered on booze the next night. Does their tears at the altar prove they love God? Or do their actions prove it?

Whispering Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 08:56 PM
By the way, the Lord often says "I love You, Amy".

And all I can do is say "I love You too, Lord!"

The love we share is so incredibly beautiful, I can't imagine reducing it down to nothing more than some works.

I have spent entire nights just drinking in the Lord and worshiping Him, spending precious time alone in His presence...weeping, laughing with joy, telling Him how incredible I think He is, speaking forth His amazing attributes, being filled with His love, getting overcome by His grace and goodness.

I wouldn't trade those experiences for anything in the world.

God is too wonderful to reduce my walk with Him down to some emotionless works. Works are important, but my Christian walk is SO MUCH MORE than that.

Whispering Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 08:58 PM
My father is a born from above Christian, and I have never seen him cry in church or at home, and he rarely smiles. He is a very unemotional person. Does this mean he doesn't love God, Christ, my mom, or me? Again, emotions can't be trusted to prove anything, but actions can. I have seen men in my church cry their eyeballs out at the altar, and then they end up in a bar getting hammered on booze the next night. Does their tears at the altar prove they love God? Or do their actions prove it?

You do realize that someone can spend his entire life doing works in Jesus' name and never have so much as a hint of love for Him, right?

Love is a matter of the heart. And it is God alone who knows our hearts.

There are hypocrites who weep and cry and never work and there are hypocrites who work and never weep and cry. Neither one of them are Christians.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 09:33 PM
You do realize that someone can spend his entire life doing works in Jesus' name and never have so much as a hint of love for Him, right?

Love is a matter of the heart. And it is God alone who knows our hearts.

There are hypocrites who weep and cry and never work and there are hypocrites who work and never weep and cry. Neither one of them are Christians.


Have you ever known a man who was very non-emotional?

My father is one of them, and so is my younger brother(he got it from Dad)

I have never seen either weep in church or any place else. I have never seen either of them get angry and raise their voice. I have never seen either of them laugh uncontrollably. They are both extremely sober and un-emotional people, who love God, Christ, their wives, and the rest of their family dearly, they just are both very sober.

Again, emotions can't be trusted, but actions can. I'm not saying emotions are bad, they are awesome, but they prove nothing. Actions prove everything.

For God so love the World that he cried, smiled, rejoiced , and laughed for the World, and whosoever believes in this has eternal life?

I think not. God's emotional love for the world doesn't save anybody.

For God so loved the world, "HE GAVE" his only begotten son. Action, not emotion.

Whispering Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 10:10 PM
Again, emotions can't be trusted, but actions can. I'm not saying emotions are bad, they are awesome, but they prove nothing. Actions prove everything.

What do actions prove? The Pharisees were men of action.

Whispering Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 10:12 PM
For God so loved the world, "HE GAVE" his only begotten son. Action, not emotion.

He loved, and then He GAVE.

We love God first, and then we act on that love. The action itself is not love. It is a result of love.

losthorizon
Jul 25th 2008, 10:16 PM
Peter didn't say "indwelling" you've added that word. I've already stated that I believe all believers-baptised in the Spirit or not, baptised in water or not-are already indwelt by the Spirit.
But Peter certainly *implies* the indwelling of the Holy Spirit does he not? The Book tells us that ALL Christians are a “temple of God” - meaning that the Spirit of God dwells in ALL who are converted to the faith of Jesus Christ and Peter tells us that at the *point of conversion* ALL believers receive the “gift of the Holy Spirit” AFTER they first believe, repent and are immersed in water (Acts 2:38). If we do not receive the indwelling Spirit at the point of conversion then we have not been truly converted per Holy Writ because only those who have the Spirit of God are His chosen – those who do not have the indwelling Spirit are not His. The Bible doesn’t teach we are converted and then at some later point in time we receive the indwelling Spirit – the Spirit indwells us *immediately upon conversion* per the inspired writer… “believe…repent…be baptized in water…receive the gift of the Holy Spirit…”
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9 (KJV)It is my understanding that the “gift of the Holy Spirit” that ALL receive at conversion is none other than the Spirit of God who dwells in us but I would be happy to hear what you think the *gift of the Holy Spirit* might be, how it differs from the *indwelling of the Holy Spirit* and at what point in time you think one receives this indweiing…
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1 Cor 3:16 (KJV)

losthorizon
Jul 25th 2008, 10:34 PM
Knock it off, there is no WATER mationed in Acts 2:38 as you are quite well aware! Show me just one scripture that says once you are baptized in WATER you will recieve the Holy Spirit.


How about the water baptism in Acts 2:38 – “believe…repent…be baptized…receive the gift of the Holy Spirit…” The baptism “in the name of Jesus Christ” is none other than the baptism commanded in the Great Commission – the same baptism administered by the hands of men where the Holy Spirit operates to add those believers who are baptized into the Lord’s church…
“they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls… the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved (Acts 2). Who was being save? Who were those being added to the body of Christ? It was those (and only those) who believed, repented and were immersed in water (baptized). If the baptism in that passage does not refer to immersion in water what does it refer to? The floor is yours...


Yes the eunuch was dunked in water I missed where it said the eunuch received the Holy Spirit... because it is not there!
According to Peter (speaking by the Holy Spirit) ALL believers who are immersed in water receive the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit – thus the eunuch "went on his way rejoicing" after he was immersed in water per the Lord’s command – “he who believes and is baptized shall be saved…” I know you dislike water but it is all there in black and white so you will just have to deal with it - or ignore it - or skirt it - or sweep it under the carpet - or....

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 10:35 PM
He loved, and then He GAVE.

We love God first, and then we act on that love. The action itself is not love. It is a result of love.

And "loved" in John 3:16 is "agapao" which is a verb. Do you understand basic grammar? Do you know what a verb is?

Whispering Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 10:48 PM
And "loved" in John 3:16 is "agapao" which is a verb. Do you understand basic grammar? Do you know what a verb is?

I am married to an English teacher, so I'd better understand basic grammar or he'll put me in detention. ;)

Do you understand that when I say "I love God" the word love used in that sentence is a verb? It is an action verb, at that.

As I said, love is a matter of the heart. Love is something that you can't see, but you can most definitely feel it and experience it. And when our hearts swell with the love of Christ (His love for us and our love for Him), then that love results in service and working for the Lord (as well as worship, praise, adoration, etc.)

You are trying to take something intangible like love and make it something tangible. Expressions of love (works, what is seen) are just that....expressions of a love that already exists (what is unseen).

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 10:58 PM
I am married to an English teacher, so I'd better understand basic grammar or he'll put me in detention. ;)

Do you understand that when I say "I love God" the word love used in that sentence is a verb? It is an action verb, at that.

As I said, love is a matter of the heart. Love is something that you can't see, but you can most definitely feel it and experience it. And when our hearts swell with the love of Christ (His love for us and our love for Him), then that love results in service and working for the Lord (as well as worship, praise, adoration, etc.)

You are trying to take something intangible like love and make it something tangible. Expressions of love (works, what is seen) are just that....expressions of a love that already exists (what is unseen).

So how do others see the love of Christ in our lives?

I'm not saying that there is no emotion involved in man's version of love, I am saying that God's "agapao" love is a verb, and is all about action, which is why he acted in the ultimate way possible, he died for us that we might have eternal life.

We are in a circular discussion no doubt.;)

Whispering Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 11:17 PM
We are in a circular discussion no doubt.;)

We are, and I'm going to let it go. ;)

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 11:23 PM
We are, and I'm going to let it go. ;)

It was fun either way though.:hug:

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 26th 2008, 12:32 AM
How about the water baptism in Acts 2:38 – “believe…repent…be baptized…receive the gift of the Holy Spirit…” The baptism “in the name of Jesus Christ” is none other than the baptism commanded in the Great Commission – the same baptism administered by the hands of men where the Holy Spirit operates to add those believers who are baptized into the Lord’s church…

“they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls… the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved (Acts 2).
Who was being save? Who were those being added to the body of Christ? It was those (and only those) who believed, repented and were immersed in water (baptized). If the baptism in that passage does not refer to immersion in water what does it refer to? The floor is yours...

According to Peter (speaking by the Holy Spirit) ALL believers who are immersed in water receive the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit – thus the eunuch "went on his way rejoicing" after he was immersed in water per the Lord’s command – “he who believes and is baptized shall be saved…” I know you dislike water but it is all there in black and white so you will just have to deal with it - or ignore it - or skirt it - or sweep it under the carpet - or....

Like I said quit adding words to the scriptures! Black and white you are funny where is the scripture that has WATER in it? Wake up! You add the WATER word yourself to every scripture that mentions baptism!

Why don't you show us a scripture after penticost that shows a person being baptized in water that recieves the Holy Spirit during or after a WATER baptism? Just one that has the word WATER. John made it clear "a man can recieve nothing unless it comes from heaven".

I see no point going over this again as you know the scriptures.

It is not there and you know it, but you keep quoting like it is!

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Have you ever read the quote in green above or others like it?

Michael

losthorizon
Jul 26th 2008, 12:41 AM
Like I said quit adding words to the scriptures! Black and white you are funny where is the scripture that has WATER in it? Wake up! You add the WATER word yourself to every scripture that mentions baptism!


Again Michael, I extend the invitation to you – if the *baptism* of Acts 2:38 does not refer to immersion in water as the church of God has always taught what does it refer to? The floor is yours...

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 26th 2008, 12:45 AM
1 Corinthians 14 is a corrective letter written by Paul to the church in Corinth for abusing and using the gift of being multi-lingual, just as Paul was multi-lingual. Paul spoke more languages then anybody in the Corinthian church, but Paul understood that if he spoke Aramaic in front of a congregation of people who only spoke Greek, that Paul would be preaching in vain. This is why Paul said that if you speak in a language that the audience doesn't speak, you must have an interpreter to interpret the language into the language of the congregation.

Break down the entire 14th chapter of 1 Corinthians into the Greek(I have) and Paul's intention with the gift of being multi-lingual(glossa) becomes crystal clear.

I had to do this for my mom and dad, because both of them used to speak in pentacostal tongues. Both of them told me they couldn't explain why they spoke in pentacostal tongues, they said it just happened to them when they were praying. The problem was that while they were praying in the sensationalistic pentacostal church services, they were entering a state of altered consciousness, and then using their flesh to conjure up the repetitive gibberish that is the pentacostal tongue.

Once I broke first Corinthians chapter 14 down to my parents word for word in the Greek, they understood that what they were doing was in the flesh, and not in the spirit, and they no longer attend pentacostal churches, and they no longer practice percieved spiritual gifts with no Biblical grounding at all, and allowing themselves to enter an altered state of consciousness through repetitive gibberish in the same way both voodoo shamans and Native American shamans do.

I also showed them several psychological studies on pentacostal glossolalia(unknown) tongues being compared to the glossolalia tongues of Native American peyote cults, shamans in the Sudan, the Shango cult of the West Coast of Africa, the Voodoo cult of Hati, the Aborigines of Australia, the shamans of Siberia, and the Tibetan monks. All of these different groups who practice unknown languages were tape recorded during their practice, and then were compared to one another. The study showed that all of these groups enter an altered state of consciousness with repetitive gibberish, and that all of their gibberish sounds basicaly the exact same. You couldn't tell the difference between pentacostal tongues and voodoo cult tongues for example.

The behavioral research study showed that glossolalia usually occurs as part of a larger condition of hysterical, dissociative, or trance states, or it may occur completely alone. Glossolalia may be deviant behavior due to abnormality of the mind, or it may be normal "expected" behavior, depending on the social and cultural environment. Glossolalia is a form of partially developed speech in which the thought-speech apparatus of the person is used for a variety if internal mental functions.

In conclusion, it's not from God, it's from the flesh, or possibly even worse, it's from familiar demonic spirits.

Well all I'm going to say is you don't know the difference between spiritual and natural as we were talking about a spiritual gifts... singing or speaking to God in another language. Do you think we should pray in Spanish in another known language as you suggest.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

The NIV just for you:
1Cr 14:2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

Explain the scripture above. Why would we speak in another known language to God?

Spiritually I think you are cluless... but if you are not tell us the language the choirs of angels? Do you think they all sing in different languages?

I don't think you can answer these questions and after reading some of your other comments I'm doubting you keep the first and greatest commandment... but carry on with your works.

Michael

Ron Brown
Jul 26th 2008, 01:05 AM
Well all I'm going to say is you don't know the difference between spiritual and natural as we were talking about a spiritual gifts... singing or speaking to God in another language. Do you think we should pray in Spanish in another known language as you suggest.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

The NIV just for you:
1Cr 14:2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

Explain the scripture above. Why would we speak in another known language to God?

Spiritually I think you are cluless... but if you are not tell us the language the choirs of angels? Do you think they all sing in different languages?

I don't think you can answer these questions and after reading some of your other comments I'm doubting you keep the first and greatest commandment... but carry on with your works.

Michael

I don't know if you are pentecostal or not, but I love my pentecostal brothers and sisters in Christ, and I have many pentecostal friends I made over the 16 years I was a member of a pentecostal church. This however, doesn't mean I have to condone the fleshly or even worse practice of glossolalia that they do in every church service. I have given you the Greek manuscript language, and yet you refuse sound scriptural teaching from the original manuscript language, so I can do no more for you my brother in Christ when it comes to glossolalia. We are in a circular discussion that will never end.

Ron Brown
Jul 26th 2008, 01:22 AM
Luke 1:15- John the baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother's womb, no pentecostal tongues spoken.

Luke 1:41- Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, no pentecostal tongues spoken here.

Luke 1:57- Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit , no pentecostal tongues spoken here.

Luke 3:22- Jesus the Christ is filled with the Holy Spirit, no pentacostal tongues spoken here.

Jesus himself demonstrated every spiritual gift listed by Paul in 1 Corinthians chapter 12, but two. The Gift of languages(glossa) and the gift of interpretation of languages.

The reason Christ is never demonstrated these 2 gifts is because he did not have a global ministry like Paul and the rest of the 1st century apostles like Peter and John had. Christs ministry was with his own people, so he only needed to speak his native language for his ministry.

Was Jesus baptised in the Holy Spirit, you better believe he was. Was it evidenced by the gifts of languages and the interpreting of languages, no it was not.

1of7000
Jul 26th 2008, 02:06 AM
Jesus himself demonstrated every spiritual gift listed by Paul in 1 Corinthians chapter 12, but two. The Gift of languages(glossa) and the gift of interpretation of languages.

Since speaking in tongues is conversing with God and helps the believer grow spiritually why would he need too?

Ron Brown
Jul 26th 2008, 02:14 AM
Since speaking in tongues is conversing with God and helps the believer grow spiritually why would he need too?

Jesus prayed to the Father more then you or I do or ever will do, yet he never prayed to God in pentecostal glossolalia according to scripture. Jesus grew in the spirit every day of his life, even though he was 100% God, he was also 100% man and Jesus had to pray to the Father in spirit and in truth every day. Jesus is the God man, the second Adam, and Adam talked with God every day himself, in order to grow closer to God.

godsgirl
Jul 26th 2008, 11:02 AM
Now, that is just "strange" Jesus is God how would there be a language He did not know? He already "knows as He is known"

godsgirl
Jul 26th 2008, 11:09 AM
Luke 1:15- John the baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother's womb, no pentecostal tongues spoken.

Luke 1:41- Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, no pentecostal tongues spoken here.

Luke 1:57- Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit , no pentecostal tongues spoken here.

Luke 3:22- Jesus the Christ is filled with the Holy Spirit, no pentacostal tongues spoken here.

Jesus himself demonstrated every spiritual gift listed by Paul in 1 Corinthians chapter 12, but two. The Gift of languages(glossa) and the gift of interpretation of languages.

The reason Christ is never demonstrated these 2 gifts is because he did not have a global ministry like Paul and the rest of the 1st century apostles like Peter and John had. Christs ministry was with his own people, so he only needed to speak his native language for his ministry.

Was Jesus baptised in the Holy Spirit, you better believe he was. Was it evidenced by the gifts of languages and the interpreting of languages, no it was not.


First of all, the Holy Spirit was not given in this way until Jesus was glorified...remember this verse...

But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

The baptism in the Spirit happened beginning at the birth of the church--you can read about it in Acts 2:4


Jesus knew as He was known, He did not see through a glass darkly like we do--how could there be a language He didn't know--He is God.

Ron Brown
Jul 26th 2008, 06:03 PM
Jesus knew as He was known, He did not see through a glass darkly like we do--how could there be a language He didn't know--He is God.

Scripture never mentions Christ speaking in several different languages, so this is all we have to go by. I am not saying that Christ could not speak in every language on Earth, just that scripture never says he could. I can make all kinds of assumptions about Christ outside of scripture, but it is very unwise to do so. Mohammed and Joseph Smith both said things about Christ outside of scripture when they started their own religions based on the Biblical texts. If it's not in the Bible, and it's not in the original manuscript languages, then I don't preach it, or teach it, because it's just man's opinion, and not Biblical fact. The original manuscript languages don't lie.

godsgirl
Jul 26th 2008, 06:40 PM
I know no one spoke in tongues in the Word until the baptism in the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2-and that was a fulfilment of Jesus prophesy.

But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Ron Brown
Jul 26th 2008, 07:24 PM
I know no one spoke in tongues in the Word until the baptism in the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2-and that was a fulfilment of Jesus prophesy.

But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

We are in a circular discussion, that will never end, because we have both have different ideas on what tongues are.

I believe that tongues are what the Greek manuscripts say they, are which is known languages from every culture on Earth.

You believe that tongues are the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, even though the Greek manuscripts do not support this idea whatsoever.

Since we have two drastic philosophical differences on the gift of tongues, then we will continue to stay in a circular discussion forever. I trust the Greek, and you don't, so we are coming from two different places. We are still both part of the Bride of Christ, so we should not divide ourselves over our doctrine, but we should love each other in Christ, which I know we both do.:hug:

godsgirl
Jul 26th 2008, 08:12 PM
You and your "greek manuscripts:P Get out your Bible. !!!

As far as I can see, the Scripture heavily infers that tongues are the initial evidence of having received the baptism in the Spirit, and therefore that is all I will believe. If there are exceptions, and we are wrong, then we can rest knowing that salvation is in the hands of God where it rightly belongs, and not in ours.

Ron Brown
Jul 26th 2008, 08:22 PM
You and your "greek manuscripts:P Get out your Bible. !!!

What do you think the New Testament English Bible you are reading was translated from?;)

If you have a KJV or NKJV New Testament Bible it was translated from the 1st-2nd-3rd century Greek manuscripts, and the 3rd-4th century Latin Vulgates.

If you have a New Testament Bible that is not any kind of KJV version, then the Latin Vulgates were left out of the translation, which is why 1 John 5:7 is not in your NIV bible for example.

The original languages don't lie my friend, but modern day doctrines sure do.

Ron Brown
Jul 26th 2008, 08:34 PM
You and your "greek manuscripts:P Get out your Bible. !!!

As far as I can see, the Scripture heavily infers that tongues are the initial evidence of having received the baptism in the Spirit, and therefore that is all I will believe. If there are exceptions, and we are wrong, then we can rest knowing that salvation is in the hands of God where it rightly belongs, and not in ours.

You are talking about secondary doctrine, and there are hundreds of different Christian denominations out there who's secondary doctrine differs.

My dad had me in a Pentecostal church as a kid, so I am very familiar with pentecostal secondary doctrine, and tongues being the evidence of the second baptism. I have studied pentecostal theology from it's historical roots and it's psychological roots, and the people who started the modern pentecostal movement were half crazy.

Charles Parham and William Seymour started the Azusa Street revival, and both were messed up fellows.

Parham was a Freemason and a British Israelist.

Seymour was an illiterate black man who was letting anybody and everybody pastor and deacon churches no matter their gender or level of spiritual maturity.

If I am going to be a member of a Church, you best believe I am going to research the history of it's doctrine and founders. I suggest you do the same.

godsgirl
Jul 26th 2008, 08:45 PM
You are talking about secondary doctrine, and there are hundreds of different Christian denominations out there who's secondary doctrine differs.

My dad had me in a Pentecostal church as a kid, so I am very familiar with pentecostal secondary doctrine, and tongues being the evidence of the second baptism. I have studied pentecostal theology from it's historical roots and it's psychological roots, and the people who started the modern pentecostal movement were half crazy.

Charles Parham and William Seymour started the Azusa Street revival, and both were messed up fellows.

Parham was a Freemason and a British Israelist.

Seymour was an illiterate black man who was letting anybody and everybody pastor and deacon churches no matter their gender or level of spiritual maturity.

If I am going to be a member of a Church, you best believe I am going to research the history of it's doctrine and founders. I suggest you do the same.

I am not a member of any church but the Lord's-

As far as I can see, the Scripture heavily infers that tongues are the initial evidence of having received the baptism in the Spirit, and therefore that is all I will believe. If there are exceptions, and I am wrong, ok-but I don't see any in the Bible-greek or not., it's not a salvation issue you are right-but it is important-so important that Jesus told His diciples to not even begin their eartly ministry until they received this power from on high.
The people who started the Pentecostal movement were blamed for being "drunk" too. Read Acts 2.

Ron Brown
Jul 26th 2008, 08:56 PM
As far as I can see, the Scripture heavily infers that tongues are the initial evidence of having received the baptism in the Spirit, and therefore that is all I will believe.

I was taught the same thing, but I decided to start studying the Bible in the original Greek manuscript languages, and my eyes were then opened to the truth. I suggest you do the same, but either way, you are saved, even though you speak in nonsense gibberish that you can't even understand yourself. Remember that God is not the author of confusion, but of clarity. There are no hidden secrets from us in the Bible, or in our prayers. Praying in the spirit is with groanings(sighs) that cannot be uttered(spoken) Romans 8:26.

Pentecostal tongues are spoken out loud with gibberish words, and Romans 8:26 clearly states that when the spirit makes intercession in our prayers, no words are spoken or uttered, gibberish or otherwise.

godsgirl
Jul 26th 2008, 10:07 PM
We ought to believe the Word of God-not you.

Paul said, "If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful, so what shall I do? I will pray with my mind and I will also pray with my spirit, I will sing with my mind I will sing with my spirit also."

If that's what you call "gibberish words" then so be it. You can make fun all you want. I'll stick with the Word. and since you haven't proven me wrong using the Word-but only your self glorifying intellect-I'll just keep on keeping on.

Ron Brown
Jul 26th 2008, 11:08 PM
We ought to believe the Word of God-not you.

Paul said, "If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful, so what shall I do? I will pray with my mind and I will also pray with my spirit, I will sing with my mind I will sing with my spirit also."

If that's what you call "gibberish words" then so be it. You can make fun all you want. I'll stick with the Word. and since you haven't proven me wrong using the Word-but only your self glorifying intellect-I'll just keep on keeping on.

I'm not going to break down the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 14 in the Greek word for word in this post, but I will give you a brief contextual overview of what Paul was telling the church in Corinth is this letter of reproval he wrote them. This letter was written by Paul to the Corinthian church for reproval, not to the rest of the 1st century churches that he had established. If you don't understand what was going on in the church at Corinth in the first place, then you will be lost when you read chapter 14. Paul wasn't praising them for speaking in tongues(various languages) all at once, with no interpreters present to translate it into the Greek, he was rebuking them for it, but in love, not in condemnation. Corinth was a port city, and the Church in Corinth had people of all races and languages visiting the church at any given time, though the bulk of the church spoke their native Greek language. When you have several different people, who speak their native languages, all trying to preach at once with no interpreters present, in a church where the bulk of the members only spoke Greek, you have one big mess. That's why Paul told them that he who speaks in his own language in the Corinthian church only edifies himself, because he is the only one who understands the message. Paul also told them that if you are preaching in a language that nobody but yourself understands, including yourself in some cases, it is unfruitful(Barren in the Greek). People attending the Corinthian church were even repeating songs and prayers in languages from other cultures that they heard others speak, and they had no idea what they were even saying as verse 14 states. Their spirit understood what they were saying, but they had no clue. Paul said if you are going to pray or sing, you better do it with understanding. Don't repeat the songs and prayers in other people's languages, unless you can interpret the language with understanding. Paul tells them that if they have a message in their own language let only 2 or the max 3 speak in order, and let it be interpreted after each one speaks. Paul told them that they all must speak one at a time, because God is not the author of confusion.

Paul was a very educated Roman citizen, and he spoke in more languages then anybody in the Corinthian church, but he didn't speak Aramaic in front of a Greek congregation, he spoke in Greek so they could understand him.

godsgirl
Jul 27th 2008, 11:15 AM
Again, all your opinion means nothing-Word of God only. you have not "proven" anything I've said to be "unbiblical" wihtout adding your own two cents-. The Word is where I get my theology.

Paul didn't understand his tongues the way he would if he merely knew the langauge he was speaking and they aren't for speaking to man anyway no matter how many langauges are represented or the church "memorised phrases from".

A. He who speaks in a tongue-doesn't speak to man but to God
B. Indeed no one understands-but in the Spirit he speaks mysteries.


1. Speaking in tongues – Edifies the individual – 1Corinth 14:4
2. Speaking in tongues – Is Prayer in the Spirit – 1Corinth 14:14
3. Prayer in the Spirit – bulds us up in our “Most Holy Faithn. edifies us Jude 1:20
4. We MUST worship God “in the Spirit” John 4:24
5. In the Public Worship only 2 or 3 people will speak in tongues. – 1Corinth 14:27
6. The gift of interpretation will follow so that the church can be built up
7. Speaking in tongues is a “sign” to Unbelievers. 1Corinth 14:22

Ron Brown
Jul 27th 2008, 10:29 PM
Again, all your opinion means nothing-Word of God only. you have not "proven" anything I've said to be "unbiblical" wihtout adding your own two cents-. The Word is where I get my theology.

Paul didn't understand his tongues the way he would if he merely knew the langauge he was speaking and they aren't for speaking to man anyway no matter how many langauges are represented or the church "memorised phrases from".

A. He who speaks in a tongue-doesn't speak to man but to God
B. Indeed no one understands-but in the Spirit he speaks mysteries.


1. Speaking in tongues – Edifies the individual – 1Corinth 14:4
2. Speaking in tongues – Is Prayer in the Spirit – 1Corinth 14:14
3. Prayer in the Spirit – bulds us up in our “Most Holy Faithn. edifies us Jude 1:20
4. We MUST worship God “in the Spirit” John 4:24
5. In the Public Worship only 2 or 3 people will speak in tongues. – 1Corinth 14:27
6. The gift of interpretation will follow so that the church can be built up
7. Speaking in tongues is a “sign” to Unbelievers. 1Corinth 14:22

It could be that studying the Greek too much has led me to coming to the wrong conclusion on what the gift of tongues is, so I'll show you the Greek one last time, and then you will understand why I think the gift of tongues is a learned gift that the Holy Spirit works through Christians to spread the gospel, and edify the body of Christ.

In 1 Corinthians 12:10 Paul lists the spiritual gifts in the Church.

to another, "kinds" of "tongues"; and to another the interpretation of "tongues".

"Kinds" in the Greek is "genos" it means- kindred, tribe, and nation. So as you can see from the Greek, it's talking about known human languages from every tribe and nation on earth, not some unknown language to mankind that only God and the Angels understand.

"Tongues" in the Greek is "glossa" it means- the tongue, an organ of speech, the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations. So as you can see from the Greek, tongue or tongues is either the tongue in your mouth, or the language of any people in any nation.


There is no word for "heavenly unknown languages" in the Biblical Greek manuscripts in any passage of scripture, so if you want to say that there is such a thing as praying or prophesying in heavenly unknown languages, then you don't have any original Biblical manuscript evidence to back you up. You have to say it's outside of scripture. Maybe the holy Spirit gives us spiritual gifts outside of scripture, but I don't believe he does. I could be wrong, I sure don't have infinite knowledge, but I only trust scripture in the original manuscript languages myself.

godsgirl
Jul 28th 2008, 11:05 AM
Taking the word "unknown" out of the sentence in no way changes the meaning of the passages.==not even this one...

He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to man, but to God-Inded no one understands, but in the Spirit he speaks mysteries.

or this one..

If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful, so what shall I do? I will pray with my mind and I will also pray with my spirit, I will sing with my mind and I will sing with my spirit also.

or this one

Forbid not to speak in tongues

ect....

making your whoe premise that tongues are not what the Bible plainly says they are because of the word "unknown" in the greek manuscripts is simply, "wrong".

Ron Brown
Jul 28th 2008, 05:27 PM
making your whoe premise that tongues are not what the Bible plainly says they are because of the word "unknown" in the greek manuscripts is simply, "wrong".

Which is why we are in a circular discussion. I think I'm right, and you think you are right, and neither of us will budge.:hug:

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 28th 2008, 06:14 PM
I don't know if you are pentecostal or not, but I love my pentecostal brothers and sisters in Christ, and I have many pentecostal friends I made over the 16 years I was a member of a pentecostal church. This however, doesn't mean I have to condone the fleshly or even worse practice of glossolalia that they do in every church service. I have given you the Greek manuscript language, and yet you refuse sound scriptural teaching from the original manuscript language, so I can do no more for you my brother in Christ when it comes to glossolalia. We are in a circular discussion that will never end.

Ron I don't know if you are a JW or not, but I love my JW brothers and sisters in Christ, and I have known many JW’s over the years. I was a never a member of a Pentecostal church or a JW but have spoken to them many times.

This however, doesn't mean I have to condone the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that the JW's and others like them do. They constantly accuse other churches that know God of having an evil spirit however the only Spirit they have known is the Spirit of the antichrist. They claim they can discern the spirits of others (another spirituial gift)without ever knowing Gods Spirit or even meeting the people they say this about. There is one that accuses the brothers night and day before the throne.

This is the message I deliver to them:

Acts 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Acts 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Acts 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

I have learned that not all are ready for the truth and it is the way of the Lord that they should not see the truth until they are ready.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Acts 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Acts 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

God is a spirit and he does not reside in the pages of your bible... he lives within his people that do not deny his spirit. If you are a JW I suggest you leave and accept the Spirit of Christ.

Sorry but I can do no more for you my brother in Christ.

Do you get it now or do you need it in Greek? :lol:

Michael

Ron Brown
Jul 28th 2008, 06:40 PM
Ron I don't know if you are a JW or not, but I love my JW brothers and sisters in Christ, and I have known many JW’s over the years. I was a never a member of a Pentecostal church or a JW but have spoken to them many times.

This however, doesn't mean I have to condone the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that the JW's and others like them do. They constantly accuse other churches that know God of having an evil spirit however the only Spirit they have known is the Spirit of the antichrist. They claim they can discern the spirits of others (another spirituial gift)without ever knowing Gods Spirit or even meeting the people they say this about. There is one that accuses the brothers night and day before the throne.

This is the message I deliver to them:

Acts 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Acts 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Acts 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

I have learned that not all are ready for the truth and it is the way of the Lord that they should not see the truth until they are ready.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Acts 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Acts 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

God is a spirit and he does not reside in the pages of your bible... he lives within his people that do not deny his spirit. If you are a JW I suggest you leave and accept the Spirit of Christ.

Sorry but I can do no more for you my brother in Christ.

Do you get it now or do you need it in Greek? :lol:

Michael


I'm a Southern Baptist apologist. Is a JW a Jehovah Witness?:confused

SoldierOfChrist
Jul 28th 2008, 06:59 PM
I'm a Southern Baptist apologist. Is a JW a Jehovah Witness?:confused

I have no idea what strange practices Southern Baptist apologist have, are they all like you?

Yes a JW is a Jehovah Witness.

I'm not any denomination but Spirit Filled and a Soldier of Christ.

Did ya miss the sarcasm. ;)

Michael

Ron Brown
Jul 28th 2008, 07:15 PM
I have no idea what strange practices Southern Baptist apologist have, are they all like you?


No. Most of them don't study the original Biblical Greek manuscript language.

cnur1
Jul 18th 2009, 02:24 AM
I like the way Mel Tari puts it. He calls it "baptism of love." It is the embrace of God. Now, if you don't want to get personal with God, you might not want this. But the whole purpose is for the love of God to embrace you. Nevermind power. Nevermind endowment. It is about the embrace of God. It is entirely personal between you and Him. It is HIS way of opening your eyes (to see Him).

Walstib
Jul 18th 2009, 11:28 AM
This has been closed as normally done with old threads brought back up.

Please feel free to start a new thread if you would like to discuss this topic.