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ProDeo
Jul 20th 2008, 06:29 PM
Because of the other thread an old question popped up in my mind again.

We know that because of the death of Jesus His Blood cleans us from all our sins. Why did God choose this hard way? Why did Jesus have to die? Why could Jesus (after having led a life without sin) not ascend to heaven without dying a cruel death first? Why is it that God demands blood sacrifice, first in the OT with animals and later by the Blood of Christ?

I think it's safe to reason that if there was a more easier way other then sacrificing the Most Precious God ever had God would have done so. It's also safe to reason I think (I better be careful) that sacrificing His Most Precious was (perhaps) the only way.

Concluding: so why is it that God demands blood sacrifice in exchange for forgiveness of sins?

Part of the answer I possibly am able to come up with is related to the wisdom found in John 15:13

Greater love has no man than this, that a man gives up his life for his friends.

In other words, giving one's life for someone else is the greatest sign of love. And that's why God established blood sacrifice. To show His love for His Creation by sacrificing the blood of the Most Precious God had, His Son Jesus Christ.

However this reasoning still doesn't answer the question why God connected blood sacrifice to the forgiveness of sins. I never heard an answer that Biblically could fully satisfy me.

Your thoughts?

Ed

Ta-An
Jul 20th 2008, 06:35 PM
I can think of this verse albeit in the OT, truth is still truth :) Lev 17:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=3&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

And then the NT

Jn 6:53 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=53) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Jn 6:54 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

BHS
Jul 20th 2008, 07:04 PM
Because the penalty for sin is death, God required an innocent animal to be substituted in place of the sinner's own death. The offerer would lay his hands upon the animal to be slain to identify with him and realize that he is taking his place. Blood had to be shed because life is in the blood. The paradox is that the general rule was that an innocent animal had to die in order for God to forgive, which was the foreshadowing of Jesus, who had to die in order to offer us life.

Beyond this, God's thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways.

Blessings,
BHS

Teke
Jul 20th 2008, 08:56 PM
Because of the other thread an old question popped up in my mind again.

We know that because of the death of Jesus His Blood cleans us from all our sins. Why did God choose this hard way? Why did Jesus have to die? Why could Jesus (after having led a life without sin) not ascend to heaven without dying a cruel death first? Why is it that God demands blood sacrifice, first in the OT with animals and later by the Blood of Christ?

I think it's safe to reason that if there was a more easier way other then sacrificing the Most Precious God ever had God would have done so. It's also safe to reason I think (I better be careful) that sacrificing His Most Precious was (perhaps) the only way.

Concluding: so why is it that God demands blood sacrifice in exchange for forgiveness of sins?

Part of the answer I possibly am able to come up with is related to the wisdom found in John 15:13

Greater love has no man than this, that a man gives up his life for his friends.

In other words, giving one's life for someone else is the greatest sign of love. And that's why God established blood sacrifice. To show His love for His Creation by sacrificing the blood of the Most Precious God had, His Son Jesus Christ.

However this reasoning still doesn't answer the question why God connected blood sacrifice to the forgiveness of sins. I never heard an answer that Biblically could fully satisfy me.

Your thoughts?

Ed

It's not in the bible that God accepted blood for forgiveness of sins. That is someones doctrine they developed from their opinion. Any Jew can tell you that is not what they believe.

Jesus' statement is for us to understand that God Himself, in Jesus Christ, martyred Himself like the prophets for us.


Hbr 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and [in] mountains, and [in] dens and caves of the earth.

Brother Mark
Jul 20th 2008, 09:37 PM
It's not in the bible that God accepted blood for forgiveness of sins. That is someones doctrine they developed from their opinion. Any Jew can tell you that is not what they believe.

Jesus' statement is for us to understand that God Himself, in Jesus Christ, martyred Himself like the prophets for us.

Hbr 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and [in] mountains, and [in] dens and caves of the earth.

Heb 9:22
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
NASB

David understood it was never the law of Moses that cleansed nor the offering of sacrifices (see Psalms 51). He knew what God was looking for and wanted for forgiveness of sins. But scripture does teach that the shedding of blood is needed for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus wasn't just a martyr. He died for our sins in order for us to be redeemed and purchased. The other prophets could not redeem us but Jesus could.

Teke
Jul 21st 2008, 01:16 AM
Heb 9:22
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
NASB


Before I comment, are their other scriptures that agree with this one.


But scripture does teach that the shedding of blood is needed for the forgiveness of sins.

I do not believe any literal blood is necessary for forgiveness. I gave some scriptures where no blood was involved and forgiveness was by prayer. Jesus always prayed. And the command to the church by the Apostles not to have anything to do with blood is contrary to such notions, practically speaking.

Jhn 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

"Light of life" not 'light of blood'. Like ACCM commented, "life is in the blood", meaning The Life/God is in the flesh and blood of Christ.



Jesus wasn't just a martyr. He died for our sins in order for us to be redeemed and purchased. The other prophets could not redeem us but Jesus could.

Yes, He wasn't "just a martyr", He was God incarnate of flesh and blood.
For me this means a transforming of humanity, and even the cosmos, by God, with it's beginning in the Incarnation, Transfiguration and Resurrection. Of which the crucifixion (His martyrdom) served a part in. Judaism never even dreamed of such a thing, though they knew He would be The Prophet (and prophets were martyrs willing to die for God).
:saint:

Brother Mark
Jul 21st 2008, 01:44 AM
Before I comment, are their other scriptures that agree with this one.

I do not believe any literal blood is necessary for forgiveness. I gave some scriptures where no blood was involved and forgiveness was by prayer. Jesus always prayed. And the command to the church by the Apostles not to have anything to do with blood is contrary to such notions, practically speaking.

And yet, Hebrews does say that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Corinthians also teaches that Jesus became sin. Other scriptures speak of being cleansed by the blood. Of course we also have passages like Psalms 51 where David was forgiven without a sacrifice. The question then becomes why? It's because Jesus blood was the only blood that could ever cleanse. The animal sacrifices never worked. That's the whole point of Hebrews. The sacrifice was once and for all because it was Jesus. Prior to that, the offering had to be made every year.

Heb 7:26-27

26 For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
NASB

And...

Heb 9:11-14

11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
NASB

He actually bore our sins on the cross.

Heb 9:28
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
NASB

As John stated, he is the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world. How did the shadow lamb do that? By making sure the blood was on the door.

It was never the blood of the sacrificial animals that took away sins. They were never able to do so. That is why David didn't offer them for his sin in Psalms 51.

Heb 10:4-12
4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

"Sacrifice and offering Thou hast not desired,
But a body Thou hast prepared for Me;
6 In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin Thou hast taken no pleasure.
7 "Then I said, 'Behold, I have come
(In the roll of the book it is written of Me)
To do Thy will, O God.'"

8 After saying above, "Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin Thou hast not desired, nor hast Thou taken pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Thy will." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,
NASB


Yes, He wasn't "just a martyr", He was God incarnate of flesh and blood.
For me this means a transforming of humanity, and even the cosmos, by God, with it's beginning in the Incarnation, Transfiguration and Resurrection. Of which the crucifixion (His martyrdom) served a part in. Judaism never even dreamed of such a thing, though they knew He would be The Prophet (and prophets were martyrs willing to die for God).
:saint:


Without his crucifixion and resurrection, there would be no forgiveness of sins. It was this that David saw and what is explained in Hebrews. The animal sacrifices were a shadow of Jesus. Just as the scapegoat took on our sin, so did Jesus. He became sin that we might be made the righteousness of God.

ProDeo
Jul 21st 2008, 09:06 AM
Heb 9:22
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
NASB

My original question still stands (now formulated by Hebr 9:22) why did God establish this: without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Why did God (for instance) not simply say: Repent & obey and you will be forgiven.

My goal of this thread is to grasp a glimpse of the deep secret of why God had to sacrifice the Most Precious He had and why there (apparently) was no other way.

Ed

nzyr
Jul 21st 2008, 10:02 AM
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. -Genesis 2:17

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. -Ezekiel 18:20

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. -Hebrews 9:22

BHS
Jul 21st 2008, 12:14 PM
My original question still stands (now formulated by Hebr 9:22) why did God establish this: without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.



Penalty of sin = Death
Death = Loss of Life
Loss of Life = Loss of Blood (Life)

God ultimately forgives because of His grace, but He has a basic order in everything He does (Order in Creation, etc). Being a just God the penalty of sin has to be satisfied in order to receive forgiveness.

Blessings,
BHS

Teke
Jul 21st 2008, 03:32 PM
My original question still stands (now formulated by Hebr 9:22) why did God establish this: without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Why did God (for instance) not simply say: Repent & obey and you will be forgiven.

My goal of this thread is to grasp a glimpse of the deep secret of why God had to sacrifice the Most Precious He had and why there (apparently) was no other way.

Ed

Hebrews can't be explained any other way than the liturgical model. Physical concepts like that water cleanses, and physical blood brings forgiveness are physical concepts of spiritual realities.

So first understand that anything with blood in it is a depiction of life and that life is the life of God. In scripture life is not a separate concept from God, as only God is Life.

Sacrifice pleasing to God requires the human voluntary aspect, not the slaughter of dumb animals. Whether that be the human bringing an animal for sacrifice or a portion of their crops or a sacrifice of themselves, such as martyrdom. Either way humanity brings the sacrifice which God (the Life) has provided. God provides the sacrifice for man to bring. In Hebrews it clarifies this sacrifice is brought by a priest, which is why Hebrews speaks of Christ as High Priest of the heavenly sanctuary.

So no matter how you look at it, there is no sacrifice without God. Because only God can provide the Life of the sacrifice.

In Jesus Christ, God chose to bring the flesh and blood of humanity into the heavenly sanctuary, something that had never been done before. This is how we see the liturgical, sacramental act of Jesus Christ.

So you see it's not that blood has inherit power to forgive. Rather the blood, with it's inherent life, is God's gift to mankind to make "atonement" (a sacrifice) for sin. For me the western word "atonement" doesn't quite give as clear a meaning as "recapitulation".

Brother Mark
Jul 21st 2008, 03:38 PM
Hebrews can't be explained any other way than the liturgical model. Physical concepts like that water cleanses, and physical blood brings forgiveness are physical concepts of spiritual realities.

So first understand that anything with blood in it is a depiction of life and that life is the life of God. In scripture life is not a separate concept from God, as only God is Life.

Sacrifice pleasing to God requires the human voluntary aspect, not the slaughter of dumb animals. Whether that be the human bringing an animal for sacrifice or a portion of their crops or a sacrifice of themselves, such as martyrdom. Either way humanity brings the sacrifice which God (the Life) has provided. God provides the sacrifice for man to bring. In Hebrews it clarifies this sacrifice is brought by a priest, which is why Hebrews speaks of Christ as High Priest of the heavenly sanctuary.

So no matter how you look at it, there is no sacrifice without God. Because only God can provide the Life of the sacrifice.

In Jesus Christ, God chose to bring the flesh and blood of humanity into the heavenly sanctuary, something that had never been done before. This is how we see the liturgical, sacramental act of Jesus Christ.

It's more than that Teke. The heavenly tabernacle itself was sanctified by the blood of Christ.

Heb 9:11

11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
NASB

Heb 9:17-21
17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you." 21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood.
NASB

And finally, we see the heavenly ministry.

Heb 9:23-28

23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
NASB

Just as blood was used for the earthly copy, so blood was used for the heavenly real. The blood of Christ was sprinkled in the heavenly tabernacle because of our sins. It was cleansed and the maker of the covenant died. We too have to die and have done so in Christ.

Blood is very necessary. The animals only pointed to that which was necessary, that being Jesus Christ.

keck553
Jul 21st 2008, 04:27 PM
Adam sinned.

God killed an animal (shed blood) to cover Adam's nakedness. It was an act of mercy. It atoned for Adam's disobedience. God set the standard.

Noah was told to bring 7 of each clean animals and 2 of each unclean animals. Why? Not only for food, but in sacrificial offerings to the Lord.

God is the one who instructed through Moses the system of sacrifice for atonement of sin. The Day of Atonement was marked by the High Priest sprinking the blood of an unblemished goat on the mercy seat and asking for atomement of sin for all Israel. Each Israelite sacrificed, fasted and repented to God and to each other that day and prayed to God that thier name remain in the Book of Life.

That doesn't mean blood sacrifice was ONLY used as an instrument of atonement for sin. Blood also sealed covenants, and bought salvation from bondage (either from Egpyt or from the world (sin); it's all the same.

In Messiah, we are not only saved from the bonds of this world, we have permanent remission of sin. And it's through His blood, because as High Priest in the order of Malkizadek He sprinkled His own blood on the mercy seat and the Father accepted it.

Heb 9:1 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.
Heb 9:2 For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place.
Heb 9:3 Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies,
Heb 9:4 having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant;
Heb 9:5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
Heb 9:6 Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship,
Heb 9:7 but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without takingblood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance.
Heb 9:8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,
Heb 9:9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,
Heb 9:10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
Heb 9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve
the living God?


Can God forgive a repentant heart? Of course.

But what did Yeshua do during the three days His body was in the tomb?

1Pe 3:18 For the Messiah himself died for sins, once and for all, a righteous person on behalf of unrighteous people, so that he might bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but brought to life by the Spirit;
1Pe 3:19 ενωκατοιςενφυλακηπνευμασινπορευθειςεκηρυξεν
1Pe 3:19 and in this form he went (kai - even)and made a proclamation to the imprisoned spirits,
1Pe 3:20 to those who were disobedient long ago, in the days of Noach, when God waited patiently during the building of the ark, in which a few people — to be specific, eight — were delivered by means of water.

This Greek word in 1Pe 3:19 (kai - even) tells us Yeshua proclaimed the Gospel to all souls, good and evil. All of them. This establishes His authority even over the demoic realm. That would include Nefalim. But for them it was not the 'good news'. For them it was bad news because of thier choice. At any rate, if He proclaimed the Gospel to even the evil, it means He proclaimed the Gospel to all, including the saints. To me, this means the Saints were waiting (in Gan-Eden) for Messiah too!

Yes, God does forgive. But does that forgiveness allow us to be with Him? Only Yeshua allows us to approach God, past present and future.

Messiah is the only way, past present and future for anyone to approach the Father. Those previoously written in the Book of Life need Messiah as much as we do to approach God.

Teke
Jul 21st 2008, 06:12 PM
It's more than that Teke. The heavenly tabernacle itself was sanctified by the blood of Christ.

Heb 9:11

11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
NASB

The heavenly temple was never unclean that it need be sanctified. But it also never had flesh and blood enter into it, literally that is, until Christ. Only He, as High Priest, and in the form of humanity, could accomplish such a thing.
Humanity by the flesh and blood (Incarnation) was sanctified by Christ to go into the heavenly temple.


Heb 9:17-21
17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you." 21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood.
NASB

And finally, we see the heavenly ministry.

Heb 9:23-28

23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
NASB

Just as blood was used for the earthly copy, so blood was used for the heavenly real. The blood of Christ was sprinkled in the heavenly tabernacle because of our sins. It was cleansed and the maker of the covenant died. We too have to die and have done so in Christ.

Blood is very necessary. The animals only pointed to that which was necessary, that being Jesus Christ.

Your still not getting this. It is the Priest which "bears the sins" and is able to go into the holy of holies. The work of Christ has instituted new worship (covenant, testament), one that allows man to enter the heavenly temple and approach Christ, their Priest, to go into the holy place and seek forgiveness of sin for them. Look at verse 28, the second time He comes, it will not be to do this, which is why it is written "apart from sin" or "without reference to sin" (NASB).

Whether OT or NT, we go to a priest to receive forgiveness of sins. God (High Priest) and His priesthood forgive sin.

Brother Mark
Jul 21st 2008, 06:27 PM
Your still not getting this. It is the Priest which "bears the sins" and is able to go into the holy of holies. The work of Christ has instituted new worship (covenant, testament), one that allows man to enter the heavenly temple and approach Christ, their Priest, to go into the holy place and seek forgiveness of sin for them. Look at verse 28, the second time He comes, it will not be to do this, which is why it is written "apart from sin" or "without reference to sin" (NASB).

Whether OT or NT, we go to a priest to receive forgiveness of sins. God (High Priest) and His priesthood forgive sin.


Teke, no matter how hard we try, we can't get around what Hebrews says about the blood. It was shed for sin. Jesus is our high priest. I too am now a priest. Jesus is not only our high priest, but he is also our sin sacrifice.

"without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins"

1 John 1:7
7 but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NASB

The blood of Christ, the Passover Lamb, covers the door post of my heart and cleanses me of sin.

We are purchased with a price. That price is his blood.

Acts 20:28
28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
NASB

It is because of the blood we can be justified.

Rom 3:24-27
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
NASB

We are justified by his blood.

Rom 5:8-11
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
NASB

We are redeemed by his blood.

Eph 1:7
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,
NASB

We were brought near by his blood.

Eph 2:12-13
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
NASB

We were put at peace with God and reconciled to God through his blood.

Col 1:19-20
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
NASB

Even the heavenlies were cleansed with the blood of Christ.

Heb 9:21-23
21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
NASB

I could go on even more but I think the point is made. It was imperative that Jesus shed his blood. He was more than an example for us, though he is that. He was more than a martyr to us, though he is that. He shed his blood in a body that was prepared for him for that very purpose. For without his blood being shed, none of us could be drawn close to him, be redeemed, be cleansed, be forgiven, and many other things.

Heb 10:4-11
4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

"Sacrifice and offering Thou hast not desired,
But a body Thou hast prepared for Me;
6 In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin Thou hast taken no pleasure.
7 "Then I said, 'Behold, I have come
(In the roll of the book it is written of Me)
To do Thy will, O God.'"

8 After saying above, "Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin Thou hast not desired, nor hast Thou taken pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Thy will." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
NASB

The sacrifice was necessary but the blood of bulls and goats never cleansed. That is why David understood the offerings were not needed but rather a shadow (Psalms 51). It is also why many Jews misunderstand the sacrificial system. In the end, God never desired animals so he prepared a body for Christ and that body would do what no animal could ever do, offer itself as a sin sacrifice for man kind.

When he went to heaven as High Priest, he offered his own flesh and blood as sin sacrifice to God and he sprinkled the mercy seat in heaven and the tabernacle in heaven and sanctified them.

keck553
Jul 21st 2008, 06:37 PM
Why did the priest have a rope around his ankle then? Would you want that kind of assurance?

I think we can all agree Yeshua is our high priest and provides intercessory prayer on our behalf.

Teke
Jul 21st 2008, 06:39 PM
Either you get the spiritual (unseen) understanding, or you don't and only get the physical (seen) understanding.

Your clearly told by the Apostles not to have anything to do with blood (nobody wants to address this issue), and to look toward Life. Blood is a physical metaphor for what is spiritual, that being Life of God.
Example, if I say, "God is a mighty fortress", does that mean that God is physically a fortress.

"Great is the mystery of God" because it's hard to explain.:)

keck553
Jul 21st 2008, 06:41 PM
Faith without works is dead.

Now, don't shoot the messenger, please.

Brother Mark
Jul 21st 2008, 06:55 PM
Either you get the spiritual (unseen) understanding, or you don't and only get the physical (seen) understanding.

Your clearly told by the Apostles not to have anything to do with blood (nobody wants to address this issue), and to look toward Life. Blood is a physical metaphor for what is spiritual, that being Life of God.
Example, if I say, "God is a mighty fortress", does that mean that God is physically a fortress.
"Great is the mystery of God" because it's hard to explain.:)

The problem is Teke, is that blood is mentioned throughout the scriptures. It's not just a spiritual concept, thought it is that too. It is also a physical necessity. That's what the entire book of Hebrews is about.

When Moses made the earthly tabernacle, he did so with a copy of the heavenly tabernacle. The blood of Christ is necessary. As the word says "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins". The concept is carried through in many other scriptures.

I don't think this qualifies as a mystery of God that is difficult to understand. This is one of them things he just laid out for us. Other things are called mysterious such as our marriage to Christ. But the shedding of blood for remission of sins is a basic doctrine, IMO, of Christianity.

Teke
Jul 21st 2008, 06:58 PM
Teke, no matter how hard we try, we can't get around what Hebrews says about the blood. It was shed for sin. Jesus is our high priest. I too am now a priest. Jesus is not only our high priest, but he is also our sin sacrifice.

"without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins"

I've already stated what blood means in scripture in two threads now. If you believe physical blood has some inherent properties (such as, that being where sin, which is not created, resides), then please share with us all.

I am a Trinitarian Christian not a Judeo-Christian. Literal physical blood doesn't play a part in my worship. I'm also well aware that the scriptures of the NT were written by Judeo-Christians.

Brother Mark
Jul 21st 2008, 07:19 PM
I've already stated what blood means in scripture in two threads now. If you believe physical blood has some inherent properties (such as, that being where sin, which is not created, resides), then please share with us all.

I am a Trinitarian Christian not a Judeo-Christian. Literal physical blood doesn't play a part in my worship. I'm also well aware that the scriptures of the NT were written by Judeo-Christians.

And yet, scripture does say it was physically necessary Teke. The authors of the NT preached it. Physical blood can be shed. While I too believe in the spiritual, that doesn't mean the physical is not needed. Jesus did come here as only a spiritual being. He wasn't just an example. His death was NECESSARY for us. Without it, sin and death would not have been defeated. He defeated sin in my life through his physical blood and his spiritual life. As you pointed out, the authors of the NT were Judeo-Christians. Do you not agree with Hebrews and Paul and the other new testament writers on the issue of blood?

Teke
Jul 21st 2008, 08:21 PM
And yet, scripture does say it was physically necessary Teke.

The Incarnation was physically necessary to get things going. It involved Spirit, flesh, blood, bone and everything associated with our present state of being.


The authors of the NT preached it.

I understand what they preached.


Physical blood can be shed.

Yes it can. But my Trinitarian beliefs do not promote bloodshed.



While I too believe in the spiritual, that doesn't mean the physical is not needed.

I agree. Which is why the physical Incarnation took place.


Jesus did come here as only a spiritual being.

I think you meant "didn't come here as only a spiritual being". I agree.



He wasn't just an example. His death was NECESSARY for us.

I agree He wasn't just an example. But His death was ordained by God because it was ordained for all of humanity in the flesh. If He hadn't died we wouldn't believe He was fully human.


Without it, sin and death would not have been defeated.

Actually it was to defeat our fear of coming to Him for forgiveness of sin and our fear of death. Death was ordained from the beginning by God, as you said, it was necessary for us, and God does provide what we need.


He defeated sin in my life through his physical blood and his spiritual life.

Well sin is still in my life and I have to ask for forgiveness from time to time.


As you pointed out, the authors of the NT were Judeo-Christians. Do you not agree with Hebrews and Paul and the other new testament writers on the issue of blood?

As I've stated, I understand what they meant with the metaphor in relation to their liturgical paradigm. I don't disregard the Apostles command on blood either, else I'd create a contradiction of terminology in their use of liturgical metaphors in their rhetoric of the subject.

keck553
Jul 21st 2008, 08:25 PM
What's with all these 'trinitarian', 'protestant' and 'Judao-Christian' labels anyway? Do you really think God cares what we label ourselves or counts us as special because of them?

Redefining yourself does not redefine the Truth.

Teke
Jul 21st 2008, 09:40 PM
What's with all these 'trinitarian', 'protestant' and 'Judao-Christian' labels anyway? Do you really think God cares what we label ourselves or counts us as special because of them?

Redefining yourself does not redefine the Truth.

Not to label or redefine, but show the distinction in semantics. Also called "significs". the branch of semiotics dealing with the relations between signs and what they denote.

Brother Mark
Jul 21st 2008, 10:48 PM
The Incarnation was physically necessary to get things going. It involved Spirit, flesh, blood, bone and everything associated with our present state of being.

It was also necessary because God sowed in the flesh in order to reap in the spirit. He started Adam with flesh for a purpose.


I understand what they preached.But you don't believe it?


Yes it can. But my Trinitarian beliefs do not promote bloodshed.There is now no longer need for bloodshed as Christ's blood was enough for all eternity.


I agree He wasn't just an example. But His death was ordained by God because it was ordained for all of humanity in the flesh. If He hadn't died we wouldn't believe He was fully human.It's not about us believing he was fully human. It's about the sacrifice and the blood covenant that was made between man and God. Without the sacrifice of Christ's body, there would be no remission of sins. As the scriptures state "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins". I don't see how we can get around all those verses.


Actually it was to defeat our fear of coming to Him for forgiveness of sin and our fear of death. Death was ordained from the beginning by God, as you said, it was necessary for us, and God does provide what we need.Not just our fear of death or coming to him, but death itself and sin itself.

1 Cor 15:53-57
54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
NASB

There are plenty of other verses that speak specifically to Jesus overcoming these things through his death on the cross.


Well sin is still in my life and I have to ask for forgiveness from time to time.Of course. We all do. But the victory over sin is ours because of His death. As the verses above say, we have victory over sin.


As I've stated, I understand what they meant with the metaphor in relation to their liturgical paradigm. I don't disregard the Apostles command on blood either, else I'd create a contradiction of terminology in their use of liturgical metaphors in their rhetoric of the subject.But scripture doesn't say the blood was meant for a metaphor. It indicates that it actually had to be shed. We entered into a blood covenant with Jesus. Just as in the OT, circumcision was a blood covenant so too is our covenant a blood covenant with God.

My heart's Desire
Jul 21st 2008, 11:21 PM
My simple answer is because this is just the way God has decided it is to be. One day we will understand.

ProDeo
Jul 22nd 2008, 07:35 PM
My simple answer is because this is just the way God has decided it is to be. One day we will understand.

Best answer seen. Guess I was asking why 2+2=4. Answer: because.

Ed

RabbiKnife
Jul 22nd 2008, 07:47 PM
What, pray tell, is the difference between a "Trinitarian Christian" and a "Judeo-Christian?"

keck553
Jul 22nd 2008, 09:29 PM
Pride, my friend.

Teke
Jul 23rd 2008, 12:04 AM
What, pray tell, is the difference between a "Trinitarian Christian" and a "Judeo-Christian?"

Praxis of Hebraic idioms.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 12:27 AM
Why did the priest have a rope around his ankle then?
Show me that Scripture? Clue... it ain't there. You can say it is... you can hunt for YEARS. It ain't there. It is just as invisible to Scripture as is the "horse" that Paul supposedly fell off. ;)

My heart's Desire
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:01 AM
Show me that Scripture? Clue... it ain't there. You can say it is... you can hunt for YEARS. It ain't there. It is just as invisible to Scripture as is the "horse" that Paul supposedly fell off. ;)
Wow, Peter I'm not one that's been spreading that story but I had heard it one time soooooo, since you mentioned it I went to look for it! Guess what? NO ankle rope! Whew! thanks for clearing that one up before I ran anywhere with it! Thankfully, I've never heard the horse one. :)

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:13 AM
Wow, Peter I'm not one that's been spreading that story but I had heard it one time soooooo, since you mentioned it I went to look for it! Guess what? NO ankle rope! Whew! thanks for clearing that one up before I ran anywhere with it! Thankfully, I've never heard the horse one. :)
Yeah... it isn't there. I hear it even still and it is a marvel to me that folks use that and never have a Scripture for it... there isn't one. Yet I hear supposed learned folk using that often.

keck553
Jul 23rd 2008, 11:08 PM
Show me that Scripture? Clue... it ain't there. You can say it is... you can hunt for YEARS. It ain't there. It is just as invisible to Scripture as is the "horse" that Paul supposedly fell off. ;)

Thank you! Another false teaching I get to unlearn! Anymore my listening-to-sermons-life has become a non-stop 'test the spirits' excersize. I really should have 'tested the spirits' on this one....

I really appreciate your catching this one for me.. May God bless you richly

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 11:35 PM
Thank you! Another false teaching I get to unlearn! Anymore my listening-to-sermons-life has become a non-stop 'test the spirits' excersize. I really should have 'tested the spirits' on this one....

I really appreciate your catching this one for me.. May God bless you richly
Any time... I love this stuff. :)

Brother Mark
Jul 23rd 2008, 11:40 PM
Yeah... it isn't there. I hear it even still and it is a marvel to me that folks use that and never have a Scripture for it... there isn't one. Yet I hear supposed learned folk using that often.

I've heard it preached before as history. When I tried to find historical evidence for it, I couldn't find that either. But then, that was before the internet really took off and I haven't searched lately.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 11:58 PM
My original question still stands (now formulated by Hebr 9:22) why did God establish this: without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Why did God (for instance) not simply say: Repent & obey and you will be forgiven.

My goal of this thread is to grasp a glimpse of the deep secret of why God had to sacrifice the Most Precious He had and why there (apparently) was no other way.

Ed
Ed,

I saw this years ago while asking the same question you are. I have never shared this on the open board because I never felt led to do it save a few very close people that I knew could understand. But it is a different day today so today I am to share this.

Genesis 22

1 Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."
2 And He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah; and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."
3 So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him and Isaac his son; and he split wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him.
4 On the third day Abraham raised his eyes and saw the place from a distance.
5 And Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey, and I and the lad will go yonder; and we will worship and return to you."
6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son, and he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So the two of them walked on together.
7 And Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, "My father!" And he said, "Here I am, my son." And he said, "Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"
8 And Abraham said, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." So the two of them walked on together.
9 ÂThen they came to the place of which God had told him; and Abraham built the altar there, and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac, and laid him on the altar on top of the wood.
10 And Abraham stretched out his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."
12 And he said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."
13 Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son.
14 And Abraham called the name of that place The LORD Will Provide, as it is said to this day, "In the mount of the LORD it will be provided."
15 Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven,
16 and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son,
17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.
18 "And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."
19 So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham lived at Beersheba.
20 ÂNow it came about after these things, that it was told Abraham, saying, "Behold, Milcah also has borne children to your brother Nahor:
21 Uz his first-born and Buz his brother and Kemuel the father of Aram
22 and Chesed and Hazo and Pildash and Jidlaph and Bethuel."
23 And Bethuel became the father of Rebekah: these eight Milcah bore to Nahor, Abraham's brother.
24 And his concubine, whose name was Reumah, also bore Tebah and Gaham and Tahash and Maacah.

Answer this question... if Abraham was that willing... could God do anything less to show perfect love than actually go through with it? Ponder it and I really think you will find the answer to your question. :)

ProDeo
Jul 24th 2008, 08:36 AM
Answer this question... if Abraham was that willing... could God do anything less to show perfect love than actually go through with it? Ponder it and I really think you will find the answer to your question. :)

Thanks Ken for listing one my favorite parts of Scripture. Favorite because of the details of the story:

1) the wood Isaac had to carry himself (presumably on his back) on which Isaac would be sacrificed. It represents the cross our Lord had to carry on which He would be sacrificed.

2) The mountain Moriah. That's Jerusalem. God let Abraham travel to Golgotha (!!) to sacrifice Isaac.

Together with Isaiah 53 it's amazing why traditional Jews still overlook these tiny but oh so important details.

However Ken, the story how touching and holy it is doesn't answer my original question, why is there no forgiveness without shedding of blood?

A few years back someone asked me this question and I replied in the sense as my opening words of this thread. It was not good enough for him.

Ed

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2008, 12:39 PM
You know in all honesty... there's just some stuff we don't know... and best we can do is offer a guess and that guess sometimes makes us look more stupid than simply saying, "you know, I am just not sure why it was that way... it just was." ;)

Brother Mark
Jul 24th 2008, 12:45 PM
I don't think we can answer it difinitively. However, someone did post something interesting above.

The wages of sin is death. Life is in the blood. By shedding blood, death occurs which is the wages or payment for sin. So sin having been paid, can now be forgiven.

keck553
Jul 24th 2008, 07:15 PM
Amen! Truth is always as simple as you just put it.

BHS
Jul 25th 2008, 01:57 AM
The story about the rope being tied to the priest is certainly not in the Scripture and when I have heard it taught it has been taught as simply a story, I believe, from the Talmud. Though there might not be any truth to it, it does make sense and is quite plausible. There is also a story of the priest's garments being caught on fire if found sleeping on their watch.

Just as you will not find the story of the red thread hung on the temple door turning white. It has been passed on as being true and I believe this one to be true, even though not in Scripture. It shows just how blinded many of the Jews were in their day, and in ours.

I would agree that those who teach need to be fully aware of their sources and present their teaching with that in mind.

Blessings,
BHS

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:00 AM
The story about the rope being tied to the priest is certainly not in the Scripture and when I have heard it taught it has been taught as simply a story, I believe, from the Talmud. Though there might not be any truth to it, it does make sense and is quite plausible. There is also a story of the priest's garments being caught on fire if found sleeping on their watch.

Just as you will not find the story of the red thread hung on the temple door turning white. It has been passed on as being true and I believe this one to be true, even though not in Scripture. It shows just how blinded many of the Jews were in their day, and in ours.

I would agree that those who teach need to be fully aware of their sources and present their teaching with that in mind.

Blessings,
BHS
But then none of that is in Scripture. Imagine it actually being of ANY importance! ;) I could care less if it is in the Oral whatever. Take that elsewhere... honestly. Not in here. When you say "I believe it" then don't try and present it as something bad. At least work with us on that point.

keck553
Jul 25th 2008, 04:53 AM
Seeing the veil was so thick 4" and probably weighed a lot (imagine that tearing from top to bottom!!), it's hard to imagine dragging a dead body through it - ..... I tend to dismiss it as folklore. I should simply have studied it. No excuses.

Diolectic
Jul 25th 2008, 04:11 PM
Because of the other thread an old question popped up in my mind again.

We know that because of the death of Jesus His Blood cleans us from all our sins. Why did God choose this hard way? Why did Jesus have to die? Why could Jesus (after having led a life without sin) not ascend to heaven without dying a cruel death first? Why is it that God demands blood sacrifice, first in the OT with animals and later by the Blood of Christ?

I think it's safe to reason that if there was a more easier way other then sacrificing the Most Precious God ever had God would have done so. It's also safe to reason I think (I better be careful) that sacrificing His Most Precious was (perhaps) the only way.

Concluding: so why is it that God demands blood sacrifice in exchange for forgiveness of sins?

Part of the answer I possibly am able to come up with is related to the wisdom found in John 15:13

Greater love has no man than this, that a man gives up his life for his friends.

In other words, giving one's life for someone else is the greatest sign of love. And that's why God established blood sacrifice. To show His love for His Creation by sacrificing the blood of the Most Precious God had, His Son Jesus Christ.

However this reasoning still doesn't answer the question why God connected blood sacrifice to the forgiveness of sins. I never heard an answer that Biblically could fully satisfy me.

Your thoughts?

EdI've been pondering this for months now and I am so very glad that I found this thred.

I believe that our answer lies within thesse two Chapters of Hebrews:

Notice what I emboldend & underlined.

Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and an earthly sanctuary. Heb
:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, in which was the lampstand, and the table, and the showbread; which is called the sanctuary.
:3 And behind the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, in which was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant;
:5 And over it the cherubim of glory shadowing the mercy seat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
:6 Now when these things were thus prepared, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
:8 The Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while the first tabernacle was yet standing:
:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
:10 Which stood only in foods and drinks, and various washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
:11 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies to the purifying of the flesh:
:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new covenant, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they who are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 10:1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the ones approaching perfect.
:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because the worshipers once purged should have had no more consciousness of sins.
:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.(the consciousness of sins, v.2)
:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you have had no pleasure.
:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do your will, O God.
:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin you desired not, neither had pleasure in them; which are offered by the law;
:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.
:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
:11 And every priest stands daily ministering and offering frequently the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;
:13 From then on waiting till his enemies be made his footstool.
:14 For by one offering he has perfected forever them that are sanctified.
:15 The Holy Spirit also is a witness to us: for after this he had said before,
:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
:20 By a new and living way, which he has consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
:21 And having a high priest over the house of God;
:20 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

I will will post more as the day draws on.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 04:24 PM
Seeing the veil was so thick 4" and probably weighed a lot (imagine that tearing from top to bottom!!), it's hard to imagine dragging a dead body through it - ..... I tend to dismiss it as folklore. I should simply have studied it. No excuses.
It happens! Shoot... I have heard that taught for more years than I care to remember. ;)

BHS
Jul 26th 2008, 03:24 AM
But then none of that is in Scripture. Imagine it actually being of ANY importance! ;) I could care less if it is in the Oral whatever. Take that elsewhere... honestly. Not in here. When you say "I believe it" then don't try and present it as something bad. At least work with us on that point.


PP, you seem to read something into my posts that isn't there. I know very little about the oral, nor do I care to teach it. Simply following up on comments already made. I do think the thread turning color is of great importance if it is true -- and it is believed to be true by the Jews -- Which counts for good if God uses it to open their eyes to see!

BHS

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 01:09 PM
PP, you seem to read something into my posts that isn't there. I know very little about the oral, nor do I care to teach it. Simply following up on comments already made. I do think the thread turning color is of great importance if it is true -- and it is believed to be true by the Jews -- Which counts for good if God uses it to open their eyes to see!

BHS
How is God going to use those things to open their eyes and if it in itself would open them... why hasn't it? Neither of those things really have much to do with nothing and fact remains... and my point... it ain't in Scripture. There were tons of stuff in the oral stuff and look where all that landed the Jewish folk. No place good. ;)

BHS
Jul 26th 2008, 04:15 PM
Your opinion. If the thread did indeed change color, it was a God thing -- something God was showing them. It is one of those things along with Isaiah 53 they do not see. How God uses anything is His perogative.

BHS

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 04:34 PM
Your opinion. If the thread did indeed change color, it was a God thing -- something God was showing them. It is one of those things along with Isaiah 53 they do not see. How God uses anything is His perogative.

BHS
What thread... the same on that you said "if it is true?" Again... this is not Bible. This is Bible Chat and not Jewish Chat. If it is their oral stuff then fine. That can be discussed somewhere else. Here... we are not Jewish and we discuss the Bible as that is what is important for us to follow. Same with the priest having the rope tied around their ankles. That isn't in the Bible. There would be no need for that anyway. If they died then Moses or Joshua could have went in there and drug them out. So while you think it plausible... I think it just fable. Here is what we do know. It isn't in the Bible so we'll not be teaching any biblical lessons on it since as far as we know... it didn't exist. It certainly wasn't important enough for Moses to write about it. Gotta figure there isn't much significance there because of that fact alone.

ProDeo
Jul 27th 2008, 11:35 AM
I've been pondering this for months now and I am so very glad that I found this thred.

It's nowhere in Scripture (as far as I know) but it could be that: when satan and co fell and God condemned them to eternal punishment that some of the heavenly creatures (not necessarily the fallen ones) argued that God was unmerciful to them. And in response God answered, "I will show you the heights and depths of my mercifulness by sacrificing the Most Precious I have". The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8).

For sure this scenario (if true) would have silenced all voices in heaven, I so can imagine.

I know I am speculating...

Ed

Seadog
Jul 29th 2008, 09:20 PM
Thank you for this very interesting thread. It is stimulating and interesting reading your posts, which show this subject can cover a broad range of Bible topics including the subjects of blood, death, the law, and marriage. I’ll try to share some of what I’ve learned in the Scriptures about this fascinating topic. I’ll try to make my explanations coherent, but the way everything in the Bible is interrelated sometimes makes simple explanations difficult and unsatisfying.

Because we are sons of Adam we tend to think of death only from our mortal perspective. The Bible tells us not to concern ourselves with our mortal lives because we have been born again of the Spirit; we have everlasting spirit life. Also, mortal death isn’t necessarily permanent – as the resurrections of several people in the Bible show. Therefore mortal death isn’t “real” death, which is why the Bible calls it “sleep.” But we cannot ignore the curse of mortal, physical death, because it turns out to be a very important blessing.

Real death isn’t in the physical realm; it’s in the spirit realm of eternity. We learn about real death when the Bible defines the second death, also called the lake of fire: Real death is living forever in torment. The second death is the only death that is permanent because there are no resurrections from the lake of fire. Let’s go back to the beginning to find out why the permanence of the lake of fire is directly related to death:
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
1 Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Jn 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and…he was a murderer from the beginning,
Rev 13: 8 …the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 5: 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst…stood a Lamb as it had been slain,
We see that Christ the Lamb was slain from the beginning/the foundation of the world. Books often depict the slain Lamb as a ram with its throat cut. I believe this is inaccurate because it is trying to impose mortal death upon the eternal Lamb before He became a flesh-and-blood mortal. The death the Lamb suffered at the hands of Lucifer was real death, which the Bible says is living forever in torment. I say again, real death is not ceasing to exist, no longer living, or losing consciousness – those things are part of mortal, physical death. Look at these clues that have to do with the blood of the Lamb, and then we’ll get to the death the eternal Lamb suffered back at the beginning:
Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Act 20:28 …the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
1 Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
In the above we wonder if we can link water with spirit, and blood with the Word/Christ, and we wonder what “God’s blood” might refer to. I’ll tell you what I think and then we’ll see if Scripture seems to back it up.

It looks like God has blood. If you do a word search in the Bible you’ll find that the words blood, water, and wine are often used as synonyms. We know there are two types of wine, red and white (clear). It may be that red wine symbolizes mortal red blood, and white wine (and its synonym, water) symbolize God’s pure blood. So, since Christ came as Son of God AND Son of man, not just the Son of God only, but by water [His pure blood] AND blood [red human mortal blood] (1 Jn 5:6), and since in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Col 2:9), that adds meaning to Jn 19:34 because on the cross Christ revealed that He had BOTH kinds of blood:
Jn 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
The blood and the water bear witness that Christ was true man and true God. Let’s see if we can link Christ’s “water blood” with real death, which is living forever in torment. And then we’ll see why Christ needed to have both immortal water and mortal red blood.

How was it possible for Lucifer to dedicate the First Testament by slaying the Testator/Lamb back at the foundation of the world? Didn’t the Lamb have eternal life, and didn’t mortality first show up later with Adam and Eve? Yes to both points. To understand the first point keep in mind that true death is living in torment forever and read these verses:
2 Sam 18:17 And they took Absalom, and cast him into a great pit
2 Sam 18:33 And the king was much moved, and went up to the chamber over the gate, and wept: and as he went, thus he said, O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! would God I had died for thee, O Absalom, my son, my son!
2 Sam 19:1-4 AND it was told Joab, Behold, the king weepeth and mourneth for Absalom. And the victory that day was turned into mourning unto all the people: for the people heard say that day how the king was grieved for his son…the king covered his face, and the king cried with a loud voice, O my son Absalom, O Absalom, my son, my son!
Ezek 31:15,16 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him. I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden,
Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black:
Jn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
We learn that God, as typified by King David, was deeply grieved by the rebellion and death of His beloved son, Lucifer. (If you understand the irrevocable finality of the First Testament Law that condemns Lucifer to death in the lake of fire you’ll understand how our omnipresent God already views Lucifer as dead.) And because God transcends time and space, even the past and future are always part of His present. Therefore, the hurt, pain, and anguish He felt as a result of Lucifer’s murderous enmity and subsequent death sentence will, like the torment of the lake of fire, never fade for our Lord. You and I can have our hurt and tears wiped away, but God will always be present with the anguish of that awful betrayal. In other words, it is a mistake to view the slaying of the immortal Lamb back in eternity as being like our mortal pseudo deaths; the death the Lamb suffered was real death – everlasting torment. That’s why Re 5:6 shouldn’t be read as, “stood a Lamb with its throat slashed”; it should be read as, “stood a Lamb with tears (water!) on his face in everlasting torment.”

God says history repeats itself (Ec 1:9,10). With that in mind let’s review what happened when the Second Testament was dedicated by the death of the Lamb of God on the cross: Notice that sorrow is linked to death in Mt 26:38,
Mt 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
and agony is linked to both sweat (water) and blood in Lk 22:44:
Lk 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat [water!] was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
This torment/death can only be eternal death if it occurs either a) in the lake of fire, or b) in God for Whom all events are always in the present. Therefore when we apply Ec 1:9,10 to all of this we learn that the First Testament at the foundation of the world, like the Second Testament on the cross, was dedicated by the clear blood of the immortal Lamb when, in tormented pain caused by His beloved Lucifer’s betrayal, He shed His water in the form of tears – just like the water He later shed in the garden of Gethsemane and on the cross. In this way both the First Testament (lake of fire) and the Second Testament (grace) were made everlasting Laws by the death of the Testator and were dedicated with His immortal water/blood, which makes robes clean and white – not red:
Rev 7:14 These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
But, some people object, the Lamb of God couldn’t have died twice to dedicate the two testaments because Heb 9 says He only died once. If we closely pay attention to the word of God we’ll see it doesn’t say what they think it does:
Heb 9:26-28 but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto [mortal] men once to die, but after this the judgment: So [the mortal] Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever,
We learn that the mortal Lamb died (shedding red blood) only once for sins; indeed, that was His purpose in being made a little lower than the angels:
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death…that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
And, because no testament is of force without the death of the testator, the immortal Lamb died twice: once in the beginning (shedding everlasting tears) to dedicate and make everlasting the First Testament (lake of fire), and once at the cross (shedding everlasting water) to dedicate and make everlasting the Second Testament (grace). Christ died once for sins, and twice for the two Testaments.

(continued in Pt 2)

Seadog
Jul 29th 2008, 09:23 PM
A review of the testaments

The First Testament:
A testament is a testator’s will or decree. It only goes into effect and becomes a permanent law when the testator dies. When God’s beloved son, Lucifer, rebelled, God, said something similar to what He said later to Adam: “If you do that one more time you will surely die.” When Lucifer refused to repent, God, in the Person of the eternal Lamb, cursed him to the lake of fire, and the lake of fire is merely the duplication of the everlasting torment/tears/”water-death” the Lamb is suffering because of Lucifer. In other words, the wages of Lucifer’s sin was 1) his own death (in the lake of fire) and 2) the Lamb’s death (outside of the lake of fire).

The Old Testament
When God delivered the Old Testament written law to Moses, Moses read from the book
Heb 9:19 every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats,with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
If you build a house “according to” a blueprint, you’d feel pretty foolish telling people the blueprint was the house. According to Heb 9:19 the Old Testament law Moses delivered was “according to” some already-existing law. Hence the OT law, was a curse that revealed the already-existing First Testament curse of the lake of fire/the wages of sin. The reason God calls the written Old Testament “carnal” (He 7:16), “weak and unprofitable” (He 7:18), and says it made “nothing perfect” (He 7:19), and was faulty (He 8:7)!, and the reason we are told that even things like the God-ordained “divine service”, which included the sanctuary, the shewbread, the tabernacle, the holy of holies, the ark of the covenant, Aaron’s rod, the tables of the Ten Commandments written by God Himself (Ex 34:1), the mercy seat, etc. (He 9:1-5), were, in fact, not “the way” (He 9:8,9)!, is because those written Old Testament laws were not dedicated and made effective by the death of the Lamb/Testator – they were dedicated by the deaths and impure blood of bulls and goats. That’s why no matter how many times the sabbath was kept or how many times the mortal Levitical high priests offered sacrifices, etc., they never satisfied the law, as proven by the fact that they had to be done again and again and again. Jesus Christ never died to dedicate the written Old Testament.

The Second Testament
The Second Testament is the Law of Grace, defined as living in God’s favor. It was dedicated and made permanent by the Lamb’s everlasting torment/water-blood on the cross. It is the final true Testament or Law because of a combination of these two facts:
Heb 9:16,17 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore,
We learn 3 things: 1) Because the risen Christ will never die again, He will never have any other testaments. 2) The Mormons’ book, which came out in the early 1800s, is titled, The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. “Another” means it, too, has to someday be put into effect by the death of its testator, which they claim is Jesus Christ. But because Christ is alive for evermore, the entire Book of Mormon is and will remain invalid. 3) Because Jesus Christ never died to dedicate the Old Testament, the title page of the Old Testament nowhere says it is a testament of Christ’s. But because He did die to dedicate the New Testament, God accurately titled it, The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. The Old Testament is the inspired word of God, but God deliberately had it dedicated (for legal reasons that become evident when the Biblical topic of laws is properly understood) by the blood of bulls and goats – not by the blood of the Lamb.

The New Testament
The written New Testament was dedicated by the death of its mortal, red-blooded Testator on the cross who was the perfect and unblemished sacrificial Lamb who fulfilled everything required in the OT law. That’s why God nowhere calls the NT carnal, weak and unprofitable, and faulty like He does the Old. The written NT openly revealed the Law of Grace, which explained how it was possible for David to eat the showbread and be guiltless.

On the cross, the Son of God, in absolute agony, looked down at the scene around Him. His pain wasn’t His primary concern; His primary concern was to fulfill every tiny requirement in the OT law so His sacrifice would be unimpeachably legal and therefore efficacious. He realized He had only three things left: 1) He needed to get hyssop into the picture, 2) He needed to refuse vinegar, and 3) He needed to die:
Jn 19:28-30 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

The Heb 9 “without shedding of blood is no remission” verse is talking about the red mortal blood of Christ on the cross. It was absolutely required. And if He hadn’t died a real mortal death, He wouldn’t have been a sacrificial lamb. Thus, His mortal death was absolutely required.

The two bloods (immortal water and mortal red) were also absolutely required that all things might be accomplished. They were foreshadowed by Moses’ use of blood and water when he sprinkled the OT book. It symbolized what Christ had to do that we might be saved: The blood symbolized the mortal sacrifice of the lamb that God would provide to atone for our sins so we could be legally reckoned dead in Christ so we could become His brides without His being an adulterer (Rom 7:1-4). The water symbolized the OT’s hidden message of the coming Testament of grace dedicated by the water-blood on the cross.

When Moses turned the river water (immortal) into blood (mortal), it symbolized the immortal Lamb being made a little lower than the immortal angels so He could be a mortal sacrifice whose death could be imputed to His people to free them of their bondage to their husband, Satan. That’s why when the Passover lambs were killed, Pharaoh released God’s people from their bondage to him.

When the Lord Jesus Christ began His ministry the first miracle He performed was at the wedding feast in Cana, where He revealed that He was the real Moses-like Messiah by turning (immortal) water into (red, mortal) wine, thus signifying He was ready to defeat the Devil with His mortal death on the cross, and, as the dead High Priest, free the captives from their city of refuge in Abe’s bosom.

Flesh and blood is not a good combination because the flesh gets a life of its own from red blood (Ge 9:4; Le 17:11,14. Christ became flesh and red blood so He could shed His blood, which makes the flesh no longer have a life of its own. That’s why Christ, Who was flesh and blood before the cross (He 2:14), was flesh and bone after the cross (Lk 24:39). When we are born again it is true that the old man remains carnal flesh and blood, but the new man is part of Christ’s flesh and bone (Ep 5:30). The war is between these two entities. Our soul must choose to walk after either the flesh-and-blood old man, or walk after the Spirit by dying daily to the flesh. Because red blood is a curse that gives life to your flesh, both Testaments prohibit the drinking of blood (Ge 9:4; Le 17:10,12; Ac 15:20; 21:25). And therefore I believe when Christ said we must drink His blood, He was referring to His spiritual blood (the water of the Word), which may mean the wine at the Last Supper was white wine.

Seadog