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mikebr
Jul 21st 2008, 09:40 PM
Does the story of Lazarus and the Rich in Luke and the story of the Sheep and the Goats teach the same thing. We have been taught that they are about believers and unbelievers yet neither story says anything about belief. Was Jesus trying to tell us the consequences of not attending to the poor.

TrustingFollower
Jul 21st 2008, 10:01 PM
The way I read the story of Lazarus and the rich man is this. They are the same guy. Jesus never used names when he taught in parables, so this is one indication that they are the same guy. In fact I think this Lazarus is the very same Lazarus that Jesus raised for dead out of the tomb. We know that the Lazarus that Jesus loved and wept over in John's gospel was a rich man. The poor could not afford to have tombs like the one described in the story.

OK with that said back to the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus is the one covered in sores which simply is talking about who the man really is. We are identified by our spirit not our body in the kingdom of God. Our spirits are held in this fleshy body and has to go where this body takes it. Our nature is to sin hence the sores on Lazarus. Now as for the rich man, he is crying out for relief. That is your body being put in the grave and describing death. Your spirit will be resting in the lord, but this body we (our spirits) live in will die. This body is worthless with out the spirit in it to make it a living soul. So the rich man is longing to have the spirit back so it can go on living, where as our spirit is longing to be home with the Lord. The flesh is getting satisfied here on this earth while the spirit is the one begging for the scraps left while we are here. When we go home the roles will be reversed.

As far as the sheep and goat question. No sheep and goats are different. We are the sheep, the ones who have given our lives over to Jesus to rule and reign in. The goats are those who are living everyday for the fullest of their sin nature.

mikebr
Jul 21st 2008, 10:11 PM
The way I read the story of Lazarus and the rich man is this. They are the same guy. Jesus never used names when he taught in parables, so this is one indication that they are the same guy. In fact I think this Lazarus is the very same Lazarus that Jesus raised for dead out of the tomb. We know that the Lazarus that Jesus loved and wept over in John's gospel was a rich man. The poor could not afford to have tombs like the one described in the story.

OK with that said back to the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus is the one covered in sores which simply is talking about who the man really is. We are identified by our spirit not our body in the kingdom of God. Our spirits are held in this fleshy body and has to go where this body takes it. Our nature is to sin hence the sores on Lazarus. Now as for the rich man, he is crying out for relief. That is your body being put in the grave and describing death. Your spirit will be resting in the lord, but this body we (our spirits) live in will die. This body is worthless with out the spirit in it to make it a living soul. So the rich man is longing to have the spirit back so it can go on living, where as our spirit is longing to be home with the Lord. The flesh is getting satisfied here on this earth while the spirit is the one begging for the scraps left while we are here. When we go home the roles will be reversed.

As far as the sheep and goat question. No sheep and goats are different. We are the sheep, the ones who have given our lives over to Jesus to rule and reign in. The goats are those who are living everyday for the fullest of their sin nature.

Interesting take on Lazarus and the Rich man. I'll have to think on that a while. As for the sheep and the goats remark, can you quote the exact scripture that says that "the goats are those who are living everyday for the fullest of their sin nature." I've been told similar things but that's not what I see.

25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

StevenC
Jul 22nd 2008, 06:01 AM
The way I read the story of Lazarus and the rich man is this. They are the same guy. Jesus never used names when he taught in parables, so this is one indication that they are the same guy. In fact I think this Lazarus is the very same Lazarus that Jesus raised for dead out of the tomb. We know that the Lazarus that Jesus loved and wept over in John's gospel was a rich man. The poor could not afford to have tombs like the one described in the story.

Hello,

The problem with this interpretation is that it is only an interpretation of the symbols it does not jive with the moral of the story. In parables the moral of the story is usually more important than the scenario used to relate it. The moral that Jesus is trying to teach is that the Rich Man should have treated Lazarus better in life, but if we re-interpret the parable the way you suggest then it doesn't make sense because that means that the rich person should have treated himself better but it didn't really matter cause his soul (Lazarus as you suggested) was saved anyway...

I think we have to accept that the moral is not as much about the wealth of the two men but as much as the responsibility the rich man had for his actions. Jesus' parable addresses the cold truth that the rich man's riches don't help him when he is burning in hell fire so he should have been willing to help Lazarus or at least provide him some food so he wouldn't die.. Moral: Do what you can when you can, because after you die, you don't get a second chance to do things right.

Maybe in this context sheep care about God and by extension his creation, and goats care only about themselves...

-Steven

mikebr
Jul 22nd 2008, 08:15 PM
Hello,

The problem with this interpretation is that it is only an interpretation of the symbols it does not jive with the moral of the story. In parables the moral of the story is usually more important than the scenario used to relate it. The moral that Jesus is trying to teach is that the Rich Man should have treated Lazarus better in life, but if we re-interpret the parable the way you suggest then it doesn't make sense because that means that the rich person should have treated himself better but it didn't really matter cause his soul (Lazarus as you suggested) was saved anyway...

I think we have to accept that the moral is not as much about the wealth of the two men but as much as the responsibility the rich man had for his actions. Jesus' parable addresses the cold truth that the rich man's riches don't help him when he is burning in hell fire so he should have been willing to help Lazarus or at least provide him some food so he wouldn't die.. Moral: Do what you can when you can, because after you die, you don't get a second chance to do things right.

Maybe in this context sheep care about God and by extension his creation, and goats care only about themselves...

-Steven
Thanks for you response, however I still don't see this in the context of the scripture. The only conclusion that we can come to in either scenario is that the rich man went to hell because he didn't care for the poor and the goats went to hell because they didn't care for the poor. There's absolutely nothing about belief. The sheep did what they did without knowing it and the goats thought they were doing things they weren't.

AngelAuthor
Jul 22nd 2008, 08:25 PM
For help in understanding the story (no parable, it was REAL, IMO) of the rich man and Lazarus is in looking at how Lazarus responds while he is in hell:


7Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Lazarus is in torment and he realizes the reason he is there. He wants Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers to testify so that they do not join him there in hell.

Testify of what?

"29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. "

Moses and the Prophets...what did they testify of that would save them from Lazarus's fate? It had nothing to do with wealth or a lack thereof, but of following God and the law. This was Lazarus's mistake and in hell he recognizes it.

TrustingFollower
Jul 22nd 2008, 09:48 PM
To help clarify what I was saying in my earlier post let's take a look at another part of the bible that I think will help clear it up some.

2 Corinthians 5:1-6 (NASB)
1For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
5Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
6Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--

If you note that it says verse 2 that we groan, longing to be clothed in our heavenly tent. Our heavenly tent is referring to the new body you will get when Jesus returns on the clouds. Hence that is the reason Lazarus is shown as the one that is lying by the gate covered in sores. He longs to be with the lord. Lazarus in this story has already excepted Jesus as his Lord. This is a story about the paradise to come in when Jesus makes all things come to pass that has been for told. In the story Lazarus was taken to Abraham's bosom. That was where paradise was until Jesus came and died for us. Now we get to go and be present with the Lord while we await the coming of the end. The flesh testifies to the spiritual and the rich man is a prophesy to the riches that await in heaven for the believer.