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talmidim
Jul 22nd 2008, 10:05 PM
Blessings and Salutations to my Brothers and Sisters in Messiah,

The purpose of this discussion is NOT to set dates, NOR is is to diminish the atoning sacrifice of our Redeemer. Please carefully consider what you offer in your posts. Any posts that violate the OP in this fashion, I ask that the post be either edited for content by the poster or removed by the Moderators.

The purpose of this discussion is to examine what we know actually occurred in the ministry of the Messiah and how it relates to the prophetic implications of His Sacred Feasts.

It is said by some that Messiah fulfilled all the Feasts in His ministry and in a symbolic sense, I can certainly see their position. But if you make the claim that the Messiah physically fulfilled all the Feasts, then the claim becomes untenable.

It is said by others Messiah fulfilled the Spring Feasts and that He will come back and fulfill the Fall Feasts. And that is what I believed until recently. But I have changed my mind in the face of physical evidence and OT revelation concerning the coronation of the kings of scripture.

This understanding of physical fulfillment flows from the fact that Messiah became that Passover Lamb. That the leaven in the Feast of Unleavened Bread represents pride and Yahshua (Jesus) humbled Himself unto death. That He was resurrected on the Feast of Firstfruits and He is called the Firstfruits of the Resurrection and the Firstfruits of those who slept. And the fulfillment of Pentecost is attributed to Him because He sent His Holy Spirit that believers would be baptised in Holy Fire.

But if you make the claim that the Messiah physically fulfilled the Spring Feast, then that claim too becomes untenable. Because scripture clearly states that our Messiah physically ascended before Pentecost.

This started me thinking about how something I heard long ago about discrepancies in the dates of the reigns of some of the kings of Israel and the kings of Judah. The explanation was simple. It seems that a person could be assume the reigns of the kingdom at any time during the year, but would not be officially coroneted until the Fall Feast of Trumpets when the main population of adult men could be present - after the fall harvest.

So this started me thinking about when Messiah assumes the reigns of power versus when He returns versus when He is crowned. It seems that they are three different events. And following the logic of those that profess His fulfillment of the Spring Feasts, He would have to return before Pentecost - not Trumpets.

Brothers and Sisters, you have the floor.

Offered in His Love,
Phillip

talmidim
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:22 PM
WOW! I thought saying that Messiah did NOT fulfill the Spring Feasts would provoke a little more response. Oh well, what do I know?

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:46 PM
Well Tal,
not everyone goes this deep, and i personally have my mind crammed with a ton of worldy issues that are needing to be dealt with.
I am however thinking about what you wrote and i will perhaps in the near future be able to comment.

This OP of yours s one of those that has to be slowley stewed on, and then once it reaches boiling point it will rapidly produce somethinbg with sweet flavor to be set before many more LOL...

I'll stew for a while!

Tanja

Ta-An
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:53 PM
:hmm:
I am still trying to mull it over

Studyin'2Show
Jul 23rd 2008, 10:53 PM
I respectfully disagree, Phillip. Firstly, I believe your theory is flawed because our Lord was most definitely physically here on earth to fulfill Passover, Unleavened Bread, and First Fruits, but I also submit that He was here for Pentecost as well. How, you ask? He had already ascended you say. If one can accept the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit then it is not difficult to see that He was here for Pentecost, as well. He was physically there in the form of tongues of fire that came upon His disciples giving them the boldness to stop hiding out in fear and to go out publicly and preach in His name. :dunno: That's my take on it.

God Bless!

Brother Mark
Jul 23rd 2008, 11:54 PM
I respectfully disagree, Phillip. Firstly, I believe your theory is flawed because our Lord was most definitely physically here on earth to fulfill Passover, Unleavened Bread, and First Fruits, but I also submit that He was here for Pentecost as well. How, you ask? He had already ascended you say. If one can accept the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit then it is not difficult to see that He was here for Pentecost, as well. He was physically there in the form of tongues of fire that came upon His disciples giving them the boldness to stop hiding out in fear and to go out publicly and preach in His name. :dunno: That's my take on it.

God Bless!

I agree with you S2S. I think he fulfilled Pentecost through the Holy Spirit. As John the baptist stated, Jesus was the Lamb. I take that to mean the Passover Lamb.

talmidim
Jul 24th 2008, 02:14 AM
I respectfully disagree, Phillip. Firstly, I believe your theory is flawed because our Lord was most definitely physically here on earth to fulfill Passover, Unleavened Bread, and First Fruits, but I also submit that He was here for Pentecost as well. How, you ask? He had already ascended you say. If one can accept the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit then it is not difficult to see that He was here for Pentecost, as well. He was physically there in the form of tongues of fire that came upon His disciples giving them the boldness to stop hiding out in fear and to go out publicly and preach in His name. :dunno: That's my take on it.

God Bless!No disrespect intended, dear sister, but that is not what scripture says. ;) If your position was correct, why would He say that He needed to physically leave?

No Denise, He is not physically here. His Spirit is. And His spiritual manifestation cannot fulfill the requirements of the Messiah, else the Pillar of Fire and Cloud would have been enough. :D



Messiah fulfilled the role of the Pesach Lamb - physically.

He fulfilled Unleavened Bread by humbling Himself unto death - physically.
He arose again on the third day, the day of Firstfruits as the 'firstfruits of those who slept' - physically.
He ascended - physically - before Shavuot, before Pentecost.
The Messiah has assumed the office of High Priest in heaven - physically.
Just like He will return - physically.
And I believe He will ultimately fulfill Shavuot - physically.


Here is what I mean:


Shavuot (Pentecost) is said to be the anniversary of the giving of the Ten Commandments on Sinai.

Then it was the day that the disciples were baptized in the Holy Spirit - and had His commandments written on their hearts.

And upon His return, He will enforce His commandments with a rod of iron - physically.

Do you see a pattern here?

talmidim
Jul 24th 2008, 02:18 AM
I agree with you S2S. I think he fulfilled Pentecost through the Holy Spirit. As John the baptist stated, Jesus was the Lamb. I take that to mean the Passover Lamb.Hi Mark! :wave:
I agree with everything you said except you conclusions. :rofl: (Sorry brother, I couldn't resist. Forgive me?)

See my explanation above.

Brother Mark
Jul 24th 2008, 02:28 AM
Hi Mark! :wave:
I agree with everything you said except you conclusions. :rofl: (Sorry brother, I couldn't resist. Forgive me?)

See my explanation above.

LOL! Well, you aren't the first to disagree with my conclusions. Though you are the first to agree with everything except those. ;)

Interesting indeed! I knew that Pentecost was tied to Sinai and the giving of the 10 with the giving of the Holy Spirit. As a side note, it's interesting too that at Sinai, 3000 died that day while at Pentecost, 3000 were saved. So, the rod of "iron" that was used at Sinai will again be used in the future. Interesting thought.

But a question... is it possible that the law was written into the hearts of believers when Jesus breathed on the disciples and said "receive ye the holy Spirit"? Perhaps he did do it at Pentecost in keeping with the theme of Sinai.

Studyin'2Show
Jul 24th 2008, 02:40 AM
Phillip,

Was the Father physically (incarnate) at Sinai for the giving of the Law? Or was it His Spirit? But as I said before, I believe your theory is flawed MAINLY because even you would not deny that He was definitely here 'physically' for the first three. I have pondered in the past that it could be the first 3 that have been fulfilled with Pentecost being like a middle ground between the first 3 and the last 3. I just don't see how you could deny that He did indeed fulfill the first 3. :dunno:

As I mentioned to you elsewhere, something else I have been considering is that the Feast of Weeks signifies the end of the wheat harvest. Wheat is for bread and in God's economy the bread is the word of God. Shavuot is 50 days after First Fruit and from the first Apostolic book of scripture to the last (canonized) is about 50 years. Thus scripture is closed. No additional scriptures! The book is closed and the wheat (bread/scripture) harvest is done. We can discuss up and down the possibilities for fulfillment of Shavuot but I can not see how the fulfillment of the first 3 can be denied.

God Bless!

talmidim
Jul 24th 2008, 03:34 AM
I'm sorry Denise. I certainly didn't mean to give that impression.

I don't see how you could think that I was denying the first three were fulfilled. :confused I stated explicitly that they had been fulfilled. I was just pointing out that Pentecost had NOT been fulfilled by Messiah physically - while the other Spring Feast HAD been fulfilled physically. And I was speculating about the prophetic meaning of that fact concerning the manner and timing of His return.

talmidim
Jul 24th 2008, 04:09 AM
Oh, and about Sinai. John seemed to think that it was the preincarnate Messiah on Sinai and not the Father. Intimating that the Messiah needs to be, well incarnate. :D

Studyin'2Show
Jul 24th 2008, 10:41 AM
Oh, and about Sinai. John seemed to think that it was the preincarnate Messiah on Sinai and not the Father. Intimating that the Messiah needs to be, well incarnate. :D
Okay, I'm glad I completely misunderstood you about the first 3. :D

Your terminology (pre-incarnate) regarding Sinai seems to bolster the fact that a physical 'carnate' Messiah was not in flesh and blood there for the giving of the Law. Which for me seems to support that He did not need to be physically, flesh and blood there for its fulfillment.

I still think it is interesting to look at the dynamics of how the feasts are positioned. 3 right together in the beginning, within days of each other and 3 right together at the end, within days of each other. Shavuot is the odd man out in that it is off by itself almost 2 months after the first 3 and a few months before the last 3. Which, for me, seems to point to the fact that though it will be fulfilled separately, it will be closer to the first 3 than the last. Because of this, I don't see a fulfillment just before the last 3 are physically fulfilled but believe it was fulfilled closer to the first 3.

God Bless!

ananias
Jul 24th 2008, 01:53 PM
Hi, Talmidim.

Ever noticed that Shavuot comes the day after the completion of 7 x 7 days, on the 5oth day, just as Yovel (the Jubilee year) comes the year after the completion of 7 x 7 years (the 50th year)?

The Jubilee year represents the first year of Messiah's Kingdom, when the earth has been restored to its owner, the Messiah.

What did Joel prophesy would come immediately after "the Day of the LORD"?

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon ALL FLESH; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." (Joel 2: 28-32).

The word afterward in Joe.2: 28 is translated from the hebrew wrods achar ken, meaning following after.

What happened on the Day of Pentecost?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Because the cycles of seasons, days, weeks, months and years are CYCLES OF TIME, the prophecies of the Bible are like the books contained in a cart which is being drawn along by a horse called "the interaction of Israel with the nations" around a huge CIRCULAR track called "time" - MANY prophecies are fulfilled MORE THAN ONCE - but the prophecy ULTIMATELY refers to THE LAST TIME it will occur - such as Psalm 118, which refers ULTIMATELY to the salvation of JACOB by His Messiah.

The apostle Peter KNEW that Joel.2: 28-32 referred to the beginning of Messiah's Kingdom. The book of Acts translates the word AFTERWARD in Joe.2: 28 as in the last days - BUT Acts was written in Greek long after the Day of Pentecost by Luke. who used the Greek word eschatos to translate THE HEBREW words achar ken ("following AFTER THE DAY OF THE LORD).

ESCHATOS (eschatology) refers to the end times + the days FOLLOWING the last days.

ananias.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 24th 2008, 02:52 PM
I have not been able to mull this over efficiently, because i've simply got too much on my plate right now. (prayers anyone?)

Suffice to say, to me the whole concept makes sense, as i fully believe and have believed for some time now, that everything that is spiritual will also manifest itself in or on the physical plane.
Therefore i have no doubt that Yeshua will need to fulfill the feasts that have not yet been physically fulfilled in a physical manner.

Just as we are to realize our spiritual walk in the flesh and thus producing fruit, something that can be observed by anyone in a physical way.

That's all i can contribute at this time.

Shalom,
Tanja

Clifton
Jul 24th 2008, 05:16 PM
I have not been able to mull this over efficiently, because i've simply got too much on my plate right now. (prayers anyone?)

:pray: Prayers granted and spoken. ;)

Blessings.

talmidim
Jul 24th 2008, 06:48 PM
:pray: Prayers granted and spoken. ;)

Blessings.Thank you Clifton, and ditto. :pray:

talmidim
Jul 24th 2008, 07:36 PM
Okay, I'm glad I completely misunderstood you about the first 3. :D I'm sorry I wasn't clear, Sis. :D


Your terminology (pre-incarnate) regarding Sinai seems to bolster the fact that a physical 'carnate' Messiah was not in flesh and blood there for the giving of the Law. Which for me seems to support that He did not need to be physically, flesh and blood there for its fulfillment.My terminology was to illustrate the opposite of what understood. :rofl: My point was that of all the things that were accomplished by the Lord before the Messiah came, STILL it was necessary that He come physically to fulfill prophecy. And all of the Feasts of the Lord are prophetically fulfilled by Messiah - physically. And there is no reason at all to assume that Shavuot would be an exception.

I am not denying that there has been a fulfillment of prophecy about Shavuot that did not require His physical presence - such as the giving of the Commandments on Sinai and the writing of them on our hearts in the upper room. But I am saying that there is a prophecy that DOES require His physical presence. It is the enforcement of His Law (with a rod of iron, remember?) through His physically taking the Throne of David. That is why I went on about the practice and traditions of the kings of Israel and Judah as recorded in scripture. That is why I brought it up in the terms of His soon coming. Because that is what He is coming to do... :pp


I still think it is interesting to look at the dynamics of how the feasts are positioned. 3 right together in the beginning, within days of each other and 3 right together at the end, within days of each other. Shavuot is the odd man out in that it is off by itself almost 2 months after the first 3 and a few months before the last 3. Which, for me, seems to point to the fact that though it will be fulfilled separately, it will be closer to the first 3 than the last. Because of this, I don't see a fulfillment just before the last 3 are physically fulfilled but believe it was fulfilled closer to the first 3.

God Bless!And I am still mulling over what you said about the completion of cannon. Interesting stuff, but these are really not on point. I was trying to let you know that there is prophecy about the Messiah physically fulfilling His ministry. And there was a reason that He physically fulfilled His Feast. And that it was significant that He did not physically fulfill the fourth Feast yet. And that He would in fact have to fulfill Shavuot, because it is written that He would...

Thanks for your blessings and your participation. I hope you understand why I am being so dogged about this observation. I'm just trying to keep the OP on point. And hopefully being not only clear enough to be understood. But being so clear as to not be misunderstood. ;)

In His Love,
Phillip

talmidim
Jul 24th 2008, 07:40 PM
Hi, Talmidim.

Ever noticed that Shavuot comes the day after the completion of 7 x 7 days, on the 5oth day, just as Yovel (the Jubilee year) comes the year after the completion of 7 x 7 years (the 50th year)?

The Jubilee year represents the first year of Messiah's Kingdom, when the earth has been restored to its owner, the Messiah.

What did Joel prophesy would come immediately after "the Day of the LORD"?

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon ALL FLESH; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." (Joel 2: 28-32).

The word afterward in Joe.2: 28 is translated from the hebrew wrods achar ken, meaning following after.

What happened on the Day of Pentecost?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Because the cycles of seasons, days, weeks, months and years are CYCLES OF TIME, the prophecies of the Bible are like the books contained in a cart which is being drawn along by a horse called "the interaction of Israel with the nations" around a huge CIRCULAR track called "time" - MANY prophecies are fulfilled MORE THAN ONCE - but the prophecy ULTIMATELY refers to THE LAST TIME it will occur - such as Psalm 118, which refers ULTIMATELY to the salvation of JACOB by His Messiah.

The apostle Peter KNEW that Joel.2: 28-32 referred to the beginning of Messiah's Kingdom. The book of Acts translates the word AFTERWARD in Joe.2: 28 as in the last days - BUT Acts was written in Greek long after the Day of Pentecost by Luke. who used the Greek word eschatos to translate THE HEBREW words achar ken ("following AFTER THE DAY OF THE LORD).

ESCHATOS (eschatology) refers to the end times + the days FOLLOWING the last days.

ananias.Great stuff my friend and thanks for your observations. And there is much I could say. But I am required to be elsewhere for now and I will pick this up later, OK?

Be Blessed,
Phillip

mfowler12
Jul 24th 2008, 07:40 PM
So this started me thinking about when Messiah assumes the reigns of power versus when He returns versus when He is crowned. It seems that they are three different events. And following the logic of those that profess His fulfillment of the Spring Feasts, He would have to return before Pentecost - not Trumpets.


Could you elaborate a bit more on that?

Studyin'2Show
Jul 24th 2008, 08:19 PM
That was on point, Phillip. :P My point about the first 3 and last 3 had to do with timing. In the timing of the feasts Shavuot is closer in time to the first 3 feasts which we agree have been fulfilled. Thusly the physical fulfillment of Shavuot should be closer in time to the first 3 than the last 3. I suppose you are focusing on the time when the wheat will be separated from the tares. Is this when you believe Shavuot will be fulfilled; at the end of the 'wheat' harvest?

talmidim
Jul 24th 2008, 08:52 PM
That was on point, Phillip. :P My point about the first 3 and last 3 had to do with timing. Oops, my bad. I thought that you were just ignoring my point... :blush:


In the timing of the feasts Shavuot is closer in time to the first 3 feasts which we agree have been fulfilled. Thusly the physical fulfillment of Shavuot should be closer in time to the first 3 than the last 3. I suppose you are focusing on the time when the wheat will be separated from the tares. Is this when you believe Shavuot will be fulfilled; at the end of the 'wheat' harvest?Yes Denise, exactly! Even as depicted in His parables. The tares are burned and the angels gather the wheat into His barn? Isn't that what He said?

And logic would also dictate that He would continue to fulfill the Feasts in the order that He determined in scripture. As you know, I believe that the seals, trumpets and cups are judgments. So I see the fulfillment of them prior to the need to physically fulfill the Feasts. The difference between the spiritual and the physical is paramount to the understanding of this concept.

The fulfillment of Shavuot would be His exercise of authority as King. And like I said before, that can happen at any time because He is omnipotent. And in the Revelation, He exercises His authority as King even before He returns. But the physical fulfillment of Shavuot would entail His actually coming and ruling over Israel. He would do so by taking the Throne of David and begin to fulfill all the prophecies written about Him. That would include vanquishing Israel's enemies and establishing a just rule in the land, to name but a few.

And according to scripture, the ancient kings would take the throne and rule even before they were coroneted. I see the same thing happening with Messiah. He will come and rule. But then He will be crowned - physically - at Yom Teruah, when the main population of adult men could be present - after the fall (fruit) harvest - thereby physically fulfilling that Feast too. He will judge His people at Yom Kippur. And He will tabernacle with His children at Sukkot - physically - and also in fulfillment of prophecy.

mfowler12, I hope this answers your post too. If not please ask and I will respond.

ananias, I am still thinking about what you wrote. There is much that we could discuss about confirming scriptures, types, shadows and fulfillments. But I really wanted to get the basics nailed down first. I hope you understand.

Jesusinmyheart, I hope this clarifies some of what I have been trying to say. And I am praying for your understanding and Shalom in Him.

In His Love,
Phillip

Studyin'2Show
Jul 25th 2008, 01:03 AM
Eschatology is not really a big area of interest for me so I would never say I'm right about anything. As with most prophecy things are usually more clear in hindsight. I'm still pretty stuck on the timing. The way you're seeing it the fulfillment of Shavuot is long, long, long way from the fulfillment of the first 3 and will be (relatively speaking) very, very, very close to the fulfillment of the last 3. :dunno: Curiosly, why do you keep mentioning the kings in relation to Shavuot? The king had no special duty on Shavuot. Nor did the high priest. Any priest could make the offering for you. :hmm:

talmidim
Jul 25th 2008, 04:32 AM
Eschatology is not really a big area of interest for me so I would never say I'm right about anything. As with most prophecy things are usually more clear in hindsight. I'm still pretty stuck on the timing. The way you're seeing it the fulfillment of Shavuot is long, long, long way from the fulfillment of the first 3 and will be (relatively speaking) very, very, very close to the fulfillment of the last 3. :dunno: Curiosly, why do you keep mentioning the kings in relation to Shavuot? The king had no special duty on Shavuot. Nor did the high priest. Any priest could make the offering for you. :hmm:I mention the kings because of the context of kings in scripture and the fact that the Messiah will return as King, not because of Shavuot. A king could ascend the throne any time during the year. But many people draw a correlation between the return of Messiah as King and the Feast of Trumpets which is associated with the coronation of the kings of Israel. So I was showing a scriptural parallel to the Messiah ascending the Throne BEFORE Trumpets. Because when He returns, according to Revelation, He will be assuming the office of King while still in heaven. But He will then physically fulfill Pentecost when He returns. And that BEFORE He fulfills Trumpets.

As to when the Feasts are fulfilled; Denise their proximity, one to another, has nothing to do with anything. The order of the fulfillment of the Feasts though has everything to do with it. The barley harvest is in the Spring. Those Feasts have been physically fulfilled by Messiah.

The wheat harvest is next. Then the Messiah returns and physically fulfills Pentecost by enforcing His Law from the Throne of David.

The fruit harvest is in the fall. And then the Messiah physically fulfills the Fall Feasts of Trumpets (being officially crowned before all Israel), Atonement(judging the sins of Israel) and Tabernacles (dwelling with the children of Israel).

I hope this makes sense...

Studyin'2Show
Jul 25th 2008, 12:09 PM
I believe I get what you're saying. I just don't necessarily agree. :D

talmidim
Jul 25th 2008, 09:17 PM
I believe I get what you're saying. I just don't necessarily agree. :DWell Dear Denise, there are prophecies about the Messiah ruling with a rod of iron, among others. That and other prophecies about how He will enforce His commandments throughout the world. And these He will do - physically. And they certainly seem to follow the theme of Pentecost. Y'know what I mean - the whole giving of the Law and then the giving of the Spirit that writes the Law in our hearts, thing. ;)

So if you don't agree. Could you please tell me where I am missing out? Because I don't see how the relationship between the timing of their fulfillment changes anything. And if you are onto something I am not getting - I want in! :pp

Studyin'2Show
Jul 25th 2008, 10:28 PM
So if you don't agree. Could you please tell me where I am missing out? Because I don't see how the relationship between the timing of their fulfillment changes anything. And if you are onto something I am not getting - I want in! :ppNo, I'm not onto anything. In fact the opposite. Our Lord told us to watch and to wait and thus I watch and wait. I really don't get into attempting to figure out the 'how' of things. I'm really not being flippant though it may seem that way. :no: And as I said, you may be dead on right. :dunno: I just don't see anything obvious as you seem to. And so I will continue to watch and to wait. ;)

God Bless!

talmidim
Oct 16th 2008, 04:12 PM
Shalom Shalom Dear Friends,

...And especially to you Sister Denise. Sometimes the strangest things happen when you least expect them. As you know I have been examining the Messiah’s fulfillment of the Appointed Times known as the Feasts of the Lord. To date they seem to have been fulfilled in order according to the scriptural account. He became the Passover sacrifice. He removed all leaven from His life and humbled Himself unto death. And He became the Firstfruits of the Resurrection, rising on the day of the offering of the Firstfruits.

But most people agree that He physically fulfilled the themes of the Spring Feasts - Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits AND Pentecost, despite the fact that He physically ascended 10 days prior to Pentecost. And I thought that very strange.

Some say that He actually did physically fulfill that day by sending His Spirit to the disciples gathered in the upper room. But for me that was His Spirit and not Elohim made flesh as in the prophecy of Emanuel. The Messiah is physical. That attribute is part and parcel of His ministry to save His children and His creation. So I have been looking at the various ways that this anomaly in interpretation could affect end time prophecy if He in fact, did return to physically fulfill Pentecost (Shavuot) before fulfilling the Feast of Trumpets.

Then I started to think about the theme of this Feast day of Pentecost or Shavuot. It is the anniversary of the giving of the Ten Commandments on Sinai. And I started thinking about the Messiah being the Word and how the Ten Commandments are the foundation of Torah.

There is much to think about when we review that story in Exodus. How the children of Israel and the Mixed Multitude were invited to come up the mountain and meet with Elohim and they refused. And there is the account of their worship of the golden calf - as Yah - under Aaron and the other ones left in charge. And there is the subsequent action of Moses and Elohim after the false worship is dealt with. But my personal favorite is when He descended in a cloud with lightning and thunder and the voice of a trumpet that waxed louder and louder – and Moses went up into the clouds to meet Him. Reflections of much of these events can be found in the Revelation, but that is for another time and another thread.

Now the following may seem like a rabbit trail, but I ask that you have patience. Because while I was rereading Luke, something of importance was revealed that has reinforced my earlier position concerning the Feasts and the ministry of the Messiah.

I have read many articles and books that try to pinpoint the birth of Messiah. And there are several that base their analysis in part, on the order of the Aaronic priests, Zacharias service (Luke 1) and the astronomical sign found in the Revelation 12. And some of this research is very scientific, comprehensive and compelling. But in the final analysis, I think their conclusions have been misapplied.

One such article, published online HERE (http://www.sightedmoon.com/?page_id=22), seeks to settle the question of whether the new moon should be calculated or sighted. And the research the author uses to validate his view (a view which I incidentally agree with) is a book published online HERE (http://www.askelm.com/star/star006.htm), that professes the birth of Messiah was on Yom Teruah in 3 b.c. However, while talking these things over with the Lord, He showed me some things that I would like to share with you. And the proof of the point I would make is to be found in Luke 1 and revelation 12, the same chapters on which these learned men have based their research. It would behoove you to read these articles before we proceed any further, so I will leave off for now with the promise to connect the dots with my next post.

Please remember when reading these articles, that it was Yah who named the stars and that each of these names has true meaning. And according to Genesis 1:14 and elsewhere in scripture, that a sign from Him is associated with His moedim - His Appointed Times. That is how we can discern the many wondrous events in the heavens as being 'wondrous' or an actual sign from Him. And the Appointed time on which these signs may fall each have a definite theme that is defined (or at least strongly hinted at) in scripture. This is not astrology folks, which is a preversion of His truth. It is the story of the Messiah and the redemption of His creation, written in the stars by the very hand of Yah.

Anyway, be blessed in this season of joyous celebration, in remembrance of the time when our Elohim tabernacled with His children and in rehearsal for the time when He will come to live with us once again – and soon.

In His Love,
Phillip

Mograce2U
Oct 16th 2008, 05:13 PM
Blessings and Salutations to my Brothers and Sisters in Messiah,

The purpose of this discussion is NOT to set dates, NOR is is to diminish the atoning sacrifice of our Redeemer. Please carefully consider what you offer in your posts. Any posts that violate the OP in this fashion, I ask that the post be either edited for content by the poster or removed by the Moderators.

The purpose of this discussion is to examine what we know actually occurred in the ministry of the Messiah and how it relates to the prophetic implications of His Sacred Feasts.

It is said by some that Messiah fulfilled all the Feasts in His ministry and in a symbolic sense, I can certainly see their position. But if you make the claim that the Messiah physically fulfilled all the Feasts, then the claim becomes untenable.

It is said by others Messiah fulfilled the Spring Feasts and that He will come back and fulfill the Fall Feasts. And that is what I believed until recently. But I have changed my mind in the face of physical evidence and OT revelation concerning the coronation of the kings of scripture.

This understanding of physical fulfillment flows from the fact that Messiah became that Passover Lamb. That the leaven in the Feast of Unleavened Bread represents pride and Yahshua (Jesus) humbled Himself unto death. That He was resurrected on the Feast of Firstfruits and He is called the Firstfruits of the Resurrection and the Firstfruits of those who slept. And the fulfillment of Pentecost is attributed to Him because He sent His Holy Spirit that believers would be baptised in Holy Fire.

But if you make the claim that the Messiah physically fulfilled the Spring Feast, then that claim too becomes untenable. Because scripture clearly states that our Messiah physically ascended before Pentecost.

This started me thinking about how something I heard long ago about discrepancies in the dates of the reigns of some of the kings of Israel and the kings of Judah. The explanation was simple. It seems that a person could be assume the reigns of the kingdom at any time during the year, but would not be officially coroneted until the Fall Feast of Trumpets when the main population of adult men could be present - after the fall harvest.

So this started me thinking about when Messiah assumes the reigns of power versus when He returns versus when He is crowned. It seems that they are three different events. And following the logic of those that profess His fulfillment of the Spring Feasts, He would have to return before Pentecost - not Trumpets.

Brothers and Sisters, you have the floor.

Offered in His Love,
Phillip
Hi Phillip,
The first problem I see here is that you seem to think that it is only physical evidence that is valid. Yet the physical is not where we get our understanding because the physical signs do not give us the full story.

Did Jesus' appearance as God incarnate reveal that fact? Who saw the Holy Spirit put the seed of God in Mary's womb? And His second physical appearance when God raised Him from the dead - did anybody see God do that? These are the realities which take place in the unseen spiritual realm that must be revealed to us else we cannot know what the things we do see mean.

Pentecost and the arrival of the Holy Spirit was such a sign in the earth that fulfilled the prophecies that were given beforehand. And the Apostles declared what the signs the people saw meant. That it was what Jesus was doing. Jesus who has been physically raised from the dead but is now ascended into the heavenly realm where we cannot see Him, does not require that He appear here in physical form for us to know that He is alive and working out the word of God in the earth.

The idea that the fall feasts need Him to appear to us physically is not warranted when there have been signs given to us that these things have been fulfilled. That is what signs are for. And we know that such signs did not procure the faith the Israelites needed when God appeared to Moses on Mt. Sinai. So rather than only looking for such things in the earth to find our faith, we need to focus instead on the spiritual understanding we have been given thru the revelation of God's word to us in the record He has given us of His Son. For that is where you will find out how it is that He has fulfilled all the prophecies that were given about Him. Which were not merely fulfilled "symbolically" but in the real spiritual sense in which they were given.

Jesus has been coronated King by His Father, the day of atonement for Israel arrived on schedule, and Jesus is now dwelling in the hearts of His people as He tabernacles among us. Now we see these things in the earth thru spiritual eyes opened to His revelation, but when we see Him with physical eyes, it will be when we have been made like Him - in the resurrection.

(John 14:19) Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

(John 14:20-21) At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. {21} He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

(John 16:10) Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Studyin'2Show
Oct 16th 2008, 06:14 PM
I've seen the studies placing Messiah's birth on September 11th based on clues given by Luke, and find them interesting when considering the possibilities. It just isn't an area the Holy Spirit has led me to study on any deeper level. :dunno: Btw, it's good to see you again! :)

God Bless!

LookingUp
Oct 17th 2008, 05:21 AM
Very interesting thread. talmidim has some really great points. I had been trying to make sense of the feasts not long ago and just couldn't get it to all fit together. This really does make sense to me. Thanks for posting.

talmidim
Oct 17th 2008, 05:59 AM
Shalom Denise,

It is good to see you too. And I pray that you are doing well also.

Denise, I understand that this may not be a topic of study to which you have been led. But I am simply trying to share what I have learned in my studies. Take from it what you will. Contribute what you can. It is offered in His love.

talmidim
Oct 17th 2008, 06:13 AM
Hi Robin,

And thank you for your contribution. But your views do not really fit this discussion. The OP is really pretty specific. I acknowledged in the OP that, “It is said by some that Messiah fulfilled all the Feasts in His ministry and in a symbolic sense, I can certainly see their position.” But I was also careful to state that this discussion was directed at those that believed in the physical aspects of His ministry and the physical fulfillment of the themes of the Feast Days. So you see, this discussion is not about the allegorical. It is about the physical.

As I stated in my original post, some claim that the Messiah physically fulfilled the Spring Feasts. The same people that believe that Yahshua fulfilled the Spring Feasts in His sacrifice, death and resurrection; they believe that He will fulfill the Fall Feasts when He returns. He will do so with His coronation in Israel and His ascension to the throne of David. He will do so with His judgement of those that remain on earth. And He will do so with His coming to tabernacle with His children. All of these things He will do physically. And all of these things He will do to fulfill the prophetic aspects of the Fall Feast days.

Please do not think me rude Robin, but your comments are off-topic. It is not that I think that only physical evidence is valid. It is that the physical evidence is the topic…

Be Blessed,
Phillip

talmidim
Oct 17th 2008, 06:23 AM
Very interesting thread. talmidim has some really great points. I had been trying to make sense of the feasts not long ago and just couldn't get it to all fit together. This really does make sense to me. Thanks for posting.
Hey thanks LookingUp. Glad this helped you. Hope the follow up will explain my position better. Because I think I have really found something. But alas, it is late and I am tired. And the exciting conclusion to this wild ride is a lengthy post that I have yet to compose. So I will probably conclude this weekend.

Nite All,
Phillip

talmidim
Oct 17th 2008, 03:42 PM
Shalom My Dear Brothers and Sisters,

As you will recall I am examining the fact that although Messiah fulfilled physically the first three Spring Feasts of the Lord, He was not present physically for Shavuot - Pentecost. So if He were to physically fulfill the Fall Feasts in order too, then He would need to include Pentecost first before proceeding to Yom Teruah - the Feast of Trumpets.

It is my belief that the important events in the Messiah's life occurred on His Appointed Times - His sacred Feast Days. And further, that they occurred with signs in the heavens. So let me share with you what I have found.

As I stated before there are many theories about the birth of Messiah based on 'hints' found in scripture. And one of the most prevalent is based on the estimation of the time of the Zacharias' priestly service. Much is made of the course of the priests and the one to which Zacharias is mentioned belonging. And if you read the articles to which I posted links, you would have know what a big part of their theory it is to calculate the time of Zacharias' service in the Temple.

But I can think of another likely reason that his priestly course is mentioned in Luke 1. It is to establish WHICH Zacharias the priest to which the author is referring and not so much when he served. Because I believe it to be the same priest that Messiah made reference to in Luke 11:51. But I digress.

Join me in Luke 1 for a little examination of the story of the birth of John and the conception of Mary. Because as we read the account of Zacharias, we learn a couple of facts that I would have you remember. The first is that Zacharias and his wife Elisabeth had prayed for a son and Gabriel had come to announce that their prayers had been answered, among other things. The second is that there is no mention of when Elisabeth got pregnant. The reason that this is important is this: Those that try to calculate these matters make several assumptions about the order of events that are not supported in scripture.

But the story of Mary is very different because Mary is clearly NOT pregnant when Gabriel appeared to her. In fact, the angel states his message in a manner that indicates that these matters will occur in the future:
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And Mary ultimately gives her permission for these matters to proceed:
Luk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. So while there is no solid time frame to be constructed from Zacharias visitation, the exact opposite is true of the account of Mary's visitation. Because there are definite references to the time and timing of these events.

It is mentioned what month of the year Mary's visitation occurred, how far along Elisabeth was in her pregnancy, when Mary went to see Elisabeth and what happened when she arrived. And all of these matters directly bear on the time of the birth of the Messiah. The results may surprise you. Because while some still claim a winter birth (though we know where this tradition started) and some claim a Spring birth, there are others that claim a Fall birth as stated in the article that attempts to rectify the astronomical sign in Revelation 12 with the birth of Messiah. But scripture has a clear answer that might surprise you.

So let's start with when:

Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
This of course begs the question how is this month to be reckoned? Well we know that the Lord determined the the first month is to be determined by the Aviv. And that puts this time frame in the weeks immediately preceding Yom Teruah – the Feast of Trumpets. This is the day on which Dr. Ernest L. Martin determined the sign in Revelation 12 fell. But in the Revelation account, the woman was pregnant on that date but gave birth later. So could this be talking about the day the Messiah was conceived? It seems so. Because both the accounts from Luke and Revelation agree.

Luke further reveals that was in her sixth month – in the sixth month of the Hebrew year. And Mary made hast to visit her and remained for three months. So she was there for the birth of John before she returned to Bethlehem. But what is more astonishing is a simple counting of months. Mary became pregnant between her visitation in the sixth month and her arrival at Zacharias' and his wife Elisabeth's home sometime around Yom Teruah. Six months from Yom Teruah puts us at the Aviv. Nine months and two weeks, the normal gestation period of a woman, puts us at or near Pentecost – Shavuot.

I have always found the themes of the Feast Days of the Lord interesting and Pentecost - Savuot, especially so. It is the anniversary of the giving of the Ten Commandments at Sinai. And the anniversary of the giving of the Spirit in the Upper Room - to write His Commandments on our hearts. But here we seem to have the conception of the Master happening on the 'Day of Shouting and blowing of Shofars' - a day of announcements. And the day of His birth - the day the Word was made flesh - shares the same Feast Day with the giving of the Word and the day the Word was written on our hearts.

It seems that the stars were still speaking when these things happened. Please watch THIS PRESENTATION (http://www.askelm.com/video/real/xmas_star.swf) and notice the last date mentioned – June 17, 02 B.C. Can anyone of you gentle readers tell me on what Hebrew date that falls?

Be Blessed,
Phillip

Mograce2U
Oct 17th 2008, 05:23 PM
Phillip,
I like how I said spiritual and you said allegory in response. There is no "allegory" for Pentecost - it really happened just as it appeared in the way in which it was prophecied. That is not my imputing some other meaning into that event to make it seem other than how it appeared. You go ahead and look for some other physical thing to happen though so it can "really" come to pass... I will leave you alone.

sigh...

quiet dove
Oct 17th 2008, 06:58 PM
Very interesting thread. talmidim has some really great points. I had been trying to make sense of the feasts not long ago and just couldn't get it to all fit together. This really does make sense to me. Thanks for posting.

talmidim always post interesting, thought provoking post. - :)

Studyin'2Show
Oct 18th 2008, 02:11 PM
I'm a bit confused, Phillip. :confused Are you saying He was born on Yom Teruah or Shavuot (Pentecost) or something else that I'm missing? :hmm:

talmidim
Oct 18th 2008, 05:46 PM
I'm a bit confused, Phillip. :confused Are you saying He was born on Yom Teruah or Shavuot (Pentecost) or something else that I'm missing? :hmm:Hey Sis,

Well it appears as though Messiah was conceived on Yom Teruah - that is Sept 11, 03 BC and born on the following Hag HaBikkurim also known as Shavuot and Pentecost. The easiest way to confirm that these dates are at least close is to ask youself this question: If the Master was concieved in the general time frame of the end of the sixth month or the beginning of the seventh month of the scriptural calendar, when would nine months and two weeks later be (the time of normal gestation)?

I feel confident about this analysis because of the information pronounced by Gabriel - the messenger of the Most High in Luke 1. Gabriel was careful to distinguish between the sixth month and Elishabeth being in her sixth month. And that cements the time frame because Gabriel is the messenger of Yah and it was Yah that pronounce that the children of Israel would begin the counting of months with the Aviv. And I feel like this observation is confirmed by the work that put the astronomical sign that is spoken of in Revelation 12 as being Yom Teruah on Sept 11, 03 BC.

By the way, this account in Luke 1 puts the time of Zacharias' service to be in his second service of the year (outside of the pilgrimage Feasts requirements for all priests). In short, all component fit and are harmonious with all scripture on the topic.

Hope this helps...

talmidim
Oct 18th 2008, 05:59 PM
Phillip,
I like how I said spiritual and you said allegory in response. There is no "allegory" for Pentecost - it really happened just as it appeared in the way in which it was prophecied. That is not my imputing some other meaning into that event to make it seem other than how it appeared. You go ahead and look for some other physical thing to happen though so it can "really" come to pass... I will leave you alone.

sigh...Now Robin, don't be that way. You think what we see as physical is allegorical. That is all I meant. No offense intended. :hug:

You and I both know that you think that all of these things have already happened. But you and I both also know that there are many that believe that the Messiah has not come again.
And that He will.
And that He will ascend to the throne of David and rule Israel.
And that He will physically live with His people and rule the world from Jerusalem.

I was simply pointing out that if you don't believe that He is physically coming back, then why would you want to join a discussion about HOW and WHEN He was coming back?

Robin, you are welcome to play 'what if', even if you don't believe as we do.:D

Don't be mad, OK?

talmidim
Oct 19th 2008, 02:19 PM
Shalon All,

This falls into the category of, 'One more time - with feeling...'

Please watch THIS PRESENTATION (http://www.askelm.com/video/real/xmas_star.swf) and notice the last date mentioned – June 17, 02 B.C. Can anyone of you gentle readers tell me on what Hebrew date that falls?

I'll give you a hint: It's a Full Moon...

Be Blessed,
Phillip

quiet dove
Oct 19th 2008, 04:02 PM
Get real, I have no idea

Adar I 15, 3759 ??
Wed.

I have no idea.

And I watched the presentation, I did.

Studyin'2Show
Oct 19th 2008, 04:39 PM
Yeah, Phillip, I think you're trying to teach a doctoral level course to a bunch of freshmen. :dunno: Sorry, just don't get it. :giveup: Maybe you could just tell us? :D

quiet dove
Oct 19th 2008, 04:46 PM
Yeah, Phillip, I think you're trying to teach a doctoral level course to a bunch of freshmen. :dunno: Sorry, just don't get it. :giveup: Maybe you could just tell us? :D

I started to tell him, this is why I am pre trib. It requires no math. I just listen for the trumpet and leave.:lol:

Studyin'2Show
Oct 19th 2008, 06:32 PM
I started to tell him, this is why I am pre trib. It requires no math. I just listen for the trumpet and leave.:lol:That works for mid and post trib too. :D We all need to be watching and waiting. :)

talmidim
Oct 19th 2008, 09:33 PM
Sorry My Dear Ones,

The Piligrimage Feasts fall on a Full Moon or very close to it. The Spring Feasts are initiated by a Full Moon on Passover. The next Feast falls in late Spring/early Summer and very close to a Full Moon. The Fall Feasts are initiated by a New Moon at Yom Teruah, the only Feast Day that does. And it precedes Yom Kippur by ten days and Sukkot by fifteen, putting Sukkot on the seventh Full Moon of the Hebrew year.

You may have noticed a pattern by now.


Full Moon - Hag HaMatza (the Passover week - a harvest celebration and a required pilgrimage),
Full Moon - Hag HaBikkurim (known as Shavuot and Pentecost is also a harvest celebration and a required pilgrimage) and finally
Full Moon - Hag HaAsif (the Feast of the Ingathering, also known as Sukkot and Tabernacles is also a harvest celebration and a required pilgrimage).

They all fall on Full Moons. Well Pentecost, because of how it is reckoned, can precede the Full Moon by a few days. But you see my point.

So let's do a quick count from Yom Teruah. If we start with the New Moon celebration at Yom Teruah (in the exact middle of the Lunar year) and count another six Lunar months, we come back to the Aviv. The leap year gives us seven months.

Going forward two weeks from the Aviv and we come to the Full moon at Passover and the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Total count: Seven months, two weeks.

We gain up to a week to start the Omar depending on where the weekly Shabbat falls within the Pesach week. Total count: Somewhere between seven months two weeks and seven months three weeks.

Add the seven weeks plus a day (29.5 days is a Lunar month) to reckon Pentecost and that gives us about nine months and two weeks from the preceding Yom Teruah (very close to the 280 day gestation period of a baby) - and right on top of another Full Moon. Interesting, huh?

So 280 days divided by 29.5 days (the number of days in a Lunar month)=9.5 months (the period of gestation).

Now let's look at it another way, starting with September 11th 2BCE. September has 30 days - minus 11 leaves 19. Add 31 for October, 30 for November and 31 for December yields 111 days to the end of our calendar year. Add 31, 28, 31, 30 and 31 for January, February, March, April and May yields 262. Add the 17 days in June and we get 279 days. 280 if it is a Leap Year. ;)

That brings us to June 17th, 2 BCE - the Moed of Shavuot occurred with a sign in the heavens. The King star Regulus resided between the feet of the constellation of the Lion of Judah. 'The King' came into conjunction with the 'Bright star', know as the King planet, Jupiter and the 'Morning Star' Venus, also known as the Mother star. They were within .01 degrees of the other. It was a conjunction that would have been brighter than all other stars in the heavens, slowly setting toward Jerusalem when viewed from Babylon. And this on the evening that started Shavuot and the Full Moon.

Does the term Bright and Morning Star ring a bell?

Offered in His love,
Phillip

third hero
Oct 19th 2008, 10:55 PM
I was wondering how long you would take to give us your :2cents:, Talmidim. Aren't you a Messianic Jew, by chance. If so, you can really teach me quite a bit on the feastivals of the Jewish people, because all I know about are the passove (thanks to Easter....er Resurrection Sunday), and The Feast of Lights, (I forgot how to spell the Jewish term for it).

Because there appears to be a connection between the Lord's return and the festivals themselves, and also the Lord states in Zechariah 14 that at the Feast of Tabernacles, He will require representatives from the remnant of the world to come to Him to offer gifts and worship Him. So, now I am interested, and I need some help. Any advice?

quiet dove
Oct 20th 2008, 01:59 AM
So I wasn't even in the ball park, I didn't see Adar I in there anywhere. So much for that calendar converter thingy

talmidim
Oct 20th 2008, 04:01 AM
I started to tell him, this is why I am pre trib. It requires no math. I just listen for the trumpet and leave.:lol:


That works for mid and post trib too. :D We all need to be watching and waiting. :)Let's say we are waiting with a friend for a lift. Helps if you have an idea about when they are supposed to pick you up and what they will be driving, y'know? :rofl:

talmidim
Oct 20th 2008, 04:59 AM
I was wondering how long you would take to give us your :2cents:, Talmidim. Aren't you a Messianic Jew, by chance. If so, you can really teach me quite a bit on the feastivals of the Jewish people, because all I know about are the passove (thanks to Easter....er Resurrection Sunday), and The Feast of Lights, (I forgot how to spell the Jewish term for it).

Because there appears to be a connection between the Lord's return and the festivals themselves, and also the Lord states in Zechariah 14 that at the Feast of Tabernacles, He will require representatives from the remnant of the world to come to Him to offer gifts and worship Him. So, now I am interested, and I need some help. Any advice?Hey there! I haven't heard from you in a while. Hope you are well.

About the Messianic Judaism, I hope you realize that with me, it is mainly a Hebrew roots thing. Most Messianics are leaning way to far into the Jewish tradition error and the mainstream Christian doesn't apply near enough Hebraic context to scriptures. I'm somewhere in the middle. We are neither Greek nor Jew...

About the Feasts, they are called moedim in Hebrew. It is the same word Elohim used in Genesis 1:14 that is translated as seasons. Another word that He uses for these Appointed Times is Sabbaths. So they are all synonymous.


Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: The word used for beginning in these verses in Hebrew is the name of the book of Genesis. He is literally saying that Genesis is both literal and prophetic. And Genesis 1:14 is saying that the heavens can say all kinds of things, but unless it happens on one of His Appointed Times, it's not really a sign. So every time you read in scripture about a sign in the heavens, start looking for evidence of a Feast Day.

I have posted before how the seven days of creation have prophetic themes. These themes correspond to the themes of His seven Feast Days, the seven Sacred Furnishings of the Tabernacle, the seven Covenants, etc.

In this case we are dealing with two different Feast Days. The first on is the fifth Feast Day called Yom Teruah, also know as Trumpets. It is the first of the Fall Feasts. In a word it is a day of announcements and inceptions. And it is kind of mysterious. The second one, the one that has been the real focus of this thread has been Pentecost. And it is the Feast Day that I believe is the true birth date of the Messiah. Now notice the application of themes.



4th Day of Creation - Lights in the heavens - Gen 1:14 - by scripture associated with His Commandments and the Feast Days.

4th Covenant Recipient - Moses - Exo 19:5-8 - by scripture associated with His Commandments and the Feast Days.

4th Covenant Mark - Sabbath - Exo 31:13 - by scripture associated with His Commandments and the Feast Days.
4th Covenant Seal - Death - Rev 6:7-8 - by scripture associated with His Commandments and the Feast Days.
4th Furnishing- Candlestick - Exo 25:31 - this one requires a little explanation
4th Feast - Pentecost - Lev 23:15 - by scripture associated with the giving of His Commandments on Sinai and therefore the Feast Days.

The gist of the associations all have to do with Messiah, the 'Word' and His ministry to redeem His children and His creation. Now lets associate the above with the Messiah.



He is the Light of the World.
He has magnified His Word above all of His Name.
He has given Sabbath (which comes from the same root word meaning seven, swearing and fulfillment) as a 'mark' of His Word.

The wages of sin is death. That is the promise to those that break His Word.
It's too late for me to do the Menorah tonite - maybe tomorrow...

The final one is the Fourth Feast - Pentecost - Shavuot.


It is the day that the Word was given on Sinai.
It is the day that the Word became man.
It is the day that the Word was written on our hearts in the upper room.
And I believe that He will come back to fulfill this day by enforcing His Word with a rod of iron.

There are some descent threads on the Feast Days. I'll see if I can dig up one for you.

Be Blessed and Good Night,
Phillip

cwb
Oct 20th 2008, 05:19 AM
Please forgive my ignorance on this matter but which scriptures show us that the messiah has to "fulfill feasts"? Also what does it mean to fulfill a feast?

talmidim
Oct 20th 2008, 09:36 AM
Please forgive my ignorance on this matter but which scriptures show us that the messiah has to "fulfill feasts"? Also what does it mean to fulfill a feast?Hello cwb,

Are you serious?

Studyin'2Show
Oct 20th 2008, 09:52 AM
Let's say we are waiting with a friend for a lift. Helps if you have an idea about when they are supposed to pick you up and what they will be driving, y'know? :rofl:Or maybe just listen for him to blow the horn. :lol: ;)

talmidim
Oct 20th 2008, 11:28 AM
Or maybe just listen for him to blow the horn. :lol: ;)Well, we have been instructed to watch. :D

Imagine the disappointment:

"Oh! I thought you meant NEXT week. Then I thought I heard a horn, but my friend said it just sounded like voices and another friend said it was thunder. It was all so embarrassing because I wasn't properly prepared or even dressed for the occasion. But my ride was there and I had to go..." ;)

Studyin'2Show
Oct 20th 2008, 11:42 AM
Well, we have been instructed to watch. :DImagine the disappointment.

"Oh! I thought you meant NEXT week. Then I thought I heard a horn, but my friend said it just sounded like voices and another friend said it was thunder. It was all so embarrassing because I wasn't properly prepared or even dressed for the occasion..." ;)
Well, I guess we'd better keep our clothes on so we're always ready, huh? :D I'm just messin' with you, Bro! :P You are right to study to show :idea: these things as you are led. :spin:

I ran across a Zola Levitt presentation that though it doesn't line up with your timeline, it actually addresses using the feasts to line up with the human gestation period; from conception the birth, 280 days, 10 lunar cycles. He moves from Passover to Hanukah, the feast representing the rededication, rebirth, new beginning. If you haven't already seen it, check it out. It's interesting. You can find it here http://www.levitt.tv/ It's near the bottom of the page under 'Special Topics' and is titled 'A Child is Born'. Though it's title sounds like what we hear concerning Yeshua, it is not at all about His birth. It would be interesting to hear your take on it. :)

God Bless!
Denise

talmidim
Oct 20th 2008, 12:07 PM
Well, I guess we'd better keep our clothes on so we're always ready, huh? :D I'm just messin' with you, Bro! :P You are right to study to show :idea: these things as you are led. :spin:

I ran across a Zola Levitt presentation that though it doesn't line up with your timeline, it actually addresses using the feasts to line up with the human gestation period; from conception the birth, 280 days, 10 lunar cycles. He moves from Passover to Hanukah, the feast representing the rededication, rebirth, new beginning. If you haven't already seen it, check it out. It's interesting. You can find it here http://www.levitt.tv/ It's near the bottom of the page under 'Special Topics' and is titled 'A Child is Born'. Though it's title sounds like what we hear concerning Yeshua, it is not at all about His birth. It would be interesting to hear your take on it. :)

God Bless!
DeniseHey thanks Sis! Though I think I'll watch it later. I woke up between 3 and 4 am again so I think I'm gonna try for a nap before work.

Be Blessed!

cwb
Oct 20th 2008, 02:59 PM
Hello cwb,

Are you serious?




Yes I am serious. Actually I am not quite sure why this was your reponse to my questions rather than answering them.

By the way, I understand that Jesus had to fullfil passover because because he is the lamb of God. My questions was more regarding the other feasts. Concerning the other feasts is there somewhere in scriptures that show those are something he needs to fulfill and if so where?

Studyin'2Show
Oct 20th 2008, 03:48 PM
Please forgive my ignorance on this matter but which scriptures show us that the messiah has to "fulfill feasts"? Also what does it mean to fulfill a feast?Let me see if I can help here.

Luke 24:44 - Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”

I believe that everything in the Hebrew Scriptures are concerning Yeshua. This includes the Feasts of the LORD. Most believers recognize that He fulfilled the Passover by being our Passover Lamb. Many believe He fulfilled Unleavened Bread by being without sin. And most believe He fulfilled First Fruits by being the firstfruit from the grave. This pattern of fulfillment and Christ's words stating that ALL things concerning Him would be fulfilled are why Phillip chooses to study this. It's simply interesting discussion and not some doctrinal rule or something that must be accepted for salvation. I hope I have sufficiently answered. :)

God Bless!

talmidim
Oct 20th 2008, 04:51 PM
Yes I am serious. Actually I am not quite sure why this was your reponse to my questions rather than answering them.

By the way, I understand that Jesus had to fullfil passover because because he is the lamb of God. My questions was more regarding the other feasts. Concerning the other feasts is there somewhere in scriptures that show those are something he needs to fulfill and if so where?Hello again cwb, :wave:

Sorry if I offended. I thought you were pulling my leg a little. It just seemed so obvious to me. But then again, I get taken to task regularly by my friends for the same thing. Y'know, thinking something is obvious when my friends don't share that opinion. Please forgive me. :hug:

I think S2S has answered your query admirably. I'm not sure I could have done any better. :pp

Be Blessed,
Phillip

cwb
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:19 AM
Hello again cwb, :wave:

Sorry if I offended. I thought you were pulling my leg a little. It just seemed so obvious to me. But then again, I get taken to task regularly by my friends for the same thing. Y'know, thinking something is obvious when my friends don't share that opinion. Please forgive me. :hug:

I think S2S has answered your query admirably. I'm not sure I could have done any better. :pp

Be Blessed,
Phillip


No problem Phillip. I have done the same thing myself before. Also, S2S did do a good job at answering my question. Thanks S2S.

Studyin'2Show
Oct 22nd 2008, 10:12 AM
No problem Phillip. I have done the same thing myself before. Also, S2S did do a good job at answering my question. Thanks S2S.My pleasure, cwb! :) Lord knows, when Phillip is posting there's usually lots of questions. :lol: All kidding aside, he has a way of really making us go beyond ourselves and dig deeper for understanding. Which is not at all a requirement but useful in our spiritual maturity.

God Bless!

talmidim
Oct 22nd 2008, 12:55 PM
No problem Phillip. I have done the same thing myself before. Also, S2S did do a good job at answering my question. Thanks S2S.You are very gracious. Thank you.

cwb, I am continually stunned every time I learn something else about Messiah and His Appointed Times. Like finding out His physical conception corresponds to the constellation described in Revelation 12 and the Feast of Trumpets, Sept 11th, 3BC. This is something that you and I can confirm with astronomy software, in this time when 'knowledge shall be increased'. But when I started studying the Feasts I had no idea how all things in scripture point to Messiah. And the very special messages He left for His believers that are willing to look.

Be Blessed


My pleasure, cwb! :) Lord knows, when Phillip is posting there's usually lots of questions. :lol: All kidding aside, he has a way of really making us go beyond ourselves and dig deeper for understanding. Which is not at all a requirement but useful in out spiritual maturity.

God Bless!Thanks for the poke in the eye Sis. ;) But seriously, thanks for the assist. And as far as a requirement, it depends on your intent. Joshua 1:8 says a lot, y'know?

Jos 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

May His love, in all its power, overtake you both,
Phillip

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:29 PM
This is interesting discussion, just to make sure I'm understanding clearly.

You are Suggesting that Mary conceived near or upon the Feast of Trumpets? And assuming that is correct, the gestational period of a normal birth would fall, on or near Pentecost? That is some very intriguing symbolism to be sure. I've only in the last couple of weeks begun to stumble onto things like the Feast of Trumpets. For whatever reason I had not heard or understood there was such a thing before, and that surprises me given how many times I've read from Genesis through judges in a space of time. However, perhaps my understanding wasn't ready to comprehend that then.

Out of curiosity what is the astronomy software you use? (I've been known to use the freeware celestia program, but have never thought to look at such things in it before.)

talmidim
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:25 PM
This is interesting discussion, just to make sure I'm understanding clearly.

You are Suggesting that Mary conceived near or upon the Feast of Trumpets? And assuming that is correct, the gestational period of a normal birth would fall, on or near Pentecost? That is some very intriguing symbolism to be sure. I've only in the last couple of weeks begun to stumble onto things like the Feast of Trumpets. For whatever reason I had not heard or understood there was such a thing before, and that surprises me given how many times I've read from Genesis through judges in a space of time. However, perhaps my understanding wasn't ready to comprehend that then.

Out of curiosity what is the astronomy software you use? (I've been known to use the freeware celestia program, but have never thought to look at such things in it before.)Hi Veretax,

And welcome to the discussion. You are correct in your presumptions, except that the Feast of Trumpets is pretty much a given as the date of conception. If you follow the links I provided earlier in the thread, you can read an entire book based on the astronomical research of Revelation 12, the Star of Bethlehem, etc. I obviously don't agree with their conclusions, but the astronomical data is verified and sound.

As far as what astronomical software I use, well I don't. I haven't had any on my computer since my last computer crash. Nowadays, I just let my friends verify stuff for me. :D However, Dr. Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D., the author of the book I referenced; I think he worked with the historical astronomy dept. at the U of Tennessee and Griffith observatory among others to verify his findings.

I actually intended to write a summary of the thread and maybe some conclusions to which we might jump. ;) But that will have to wait till later.

Be Blessed,
Phillip

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:43 PM
Understood, in all honesty, with my current realiziation at a lack of knowledge concerning the feasts, I don't' plan to jump to any judgments until I've reviewed them. That will likely be the next topic of my personal devotions, as I'm working my way through Jay Adams "a Pursuit of Wholeness" as a study guide to go along with the book of James. I find the discussion interesting and certainly gives me a hunger for more scripture, and that is always a Good thing in my estimation.