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mikebr
Jul 22nd 2008, 11:01 PM
Story told by Tony Campolo

I have a friend. He pastored a church up in Brooklyn. It was a dying community, a place where everything was disintegrating. He kept himself fed and clothes and his family cared for by, by doing odd jobs, one of which was doing funerals for the local undertaker when nobody else would take them. The man was a saint and he didn't know it so I would call him and get great stories because he never used them. And I would always say, Jim, anything good happen that I can tell, any good story that, anything happen this week? He'd always say no. "What about Tuesday at 11 o'clock? What were you doing then?" "Oh, he said, that was fascinating. The undertaker called me early in the morning because he had a man to bury who had died of AIDS and nobody wanted to take the funeral so I ended up taking the funeral."
I said, "What was it like?
He said, "About 25 homosexual men came and sat there. Never once, Tony, did they ever look up at me. The whole time I spoke their heads were down and they were looking at the floor. Never once did they ever make eye contact with me all during the funeral. We went out and got in some cars and we followed the hearse out to the cemetery, lowered the body into the grave. I stood on one side of the grave. These 25 some homosexual men on the other side. Standing there like statues, neither looking to the right or to the left, looking straight out into infinity. Never budging just sitting there, standing there rigid like statues. I read some scripture. I said some prayers. I committed the body to the grave. I said the benediction and I started to move - walk away, but they didn't move. They stood there as though frozen so I, I came back and I said, ‘Excuse me, is there anything else I can do?’
"And one of the men said, ‘Yes. I never go to church. Used to go to church but I don't go to church. The only thing I really liked about church was when they read from the Bible, especially the King James. I like the King James. You didn't read the 23rd psalm. I thought they always read that at funerals. Could you read the 23rd Psalm?’"
Jim opened the Bible and read the 23rd Psalm. Another man said, "There's a passage in the 3rd chapter of John about being born again. I like that passage."
John read that. Then a third man said, "The 8th chapter of Romans, right at the end, that's what keeps me going."
And Jim read to these homosexual men. "Neither height nor depth, neither principalities nor powers, neither things present, nor things to come, nothing, nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Nothing. And when he told me that, I hurt, I hurt, because I knew that these men wanted to hear the Bible but would never step foot inside a church because they are convinced that church people despise them. And do you know why they think church people despise them? Because church people despise them.
I am not approving of homosexual behavior. I am disapproving of a church that has forgotten how to love people that Jesus will never stop loving. And if you don't like it, join another club but don't call yourself a member of the church of Jesus Christ for we are the community of lovers and we love all kinds of people with all kinds of sin and that's your good fortune and mine too, for where would we be without such a church. And I want it to be the church that Christ wants it to be.

merjorg
Jul 22nd 2008, 11:16 PM
Very nice! I do not understand, for the life of me, why there is so much hate towards those who practice homosexuality. It is wrong, wrong, wrong...there is absolutely no doubt about that. But, it just happens to be the sin that they are entangled in. What about all the other different types of sin that people are entangled in?

If the church hates a homosexual, then it has to hate the liar, the neighbor who takes the Lord's name in vain, and umm...........well, it has to hate ALL OF US! We can't pick and choose who is worse than who, who we should hate and who we can go ahead and accept.

Thank you, Jesus, for loving ALL OF US - even while we were sinners!!!!!!!!! :pp

ProjectPeter
Jul 22nd 2008, 11:35 PM
You know man... That's a very sweet story and I can say all the nonsense and we can all roast marshmallows and feel good about the story. Jim is probably a really nice guy and etc. etc. etc. Still... those homosexuals are going to go to hell. They like the Psalms and John keeps them going... blah. If they really liked any of that then they would repent of their sin and they would turn to God. This sort of stuff... while certainly sweet little stories in the eyes of the world... they are silly. In matters of eternity and God and doctrine... those boys and girls are going to die in their sin and go to hell. Old Tony boy can put that in his pipe and suck on it. Straight up fact and if he keeps preaching this sort of stuff... in truth... he will be right there with them. He is wrong. God don't care that they like the Psalms. God don't care that John's verses keep them going. God only cares if they repent and turn to Him. This sort of stuff is EXACTLY THE PROBLEM with the church today. The message those folks needed to hear... repent and turn to God. All the Bible reading in the world don't mean nothing unless that happens... and this is exactly why Campolo is loved by the greasiest of the greasy grace folk.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:37 AM
I heard someone say not too long ago that we could know we had created God in our own image when we believed He hated the people we hated. The idea that they are going to hell should bring tears and not derision. Moses and Paul were willing to trade places with them. What has happened to the Body of Christ?


"I am not approving of homosexual behavior. I am disapproving of a church that has forgotten how to love people that Jesus will never stop loving. And if you don't like it, join another club but don't call yourself a member of the church of Jesus Christ for we are the community of lovers and we love all kinds of people with all kinds of sin and that's your good fortune and mine too, for where would we be without such a church. And I want it to be the church that Christ wants it to be."

apothanein kerdos
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:42 AM
Romans 8 is to those who are already within the love of Christ. Though they might enjoy Romans 8, unfortunately because of their lifestyle choices they have rejected this love and therefore cannot partake in it.

When the world - and Tony Campolo - tell us to treat homosexuals better, they generally mean "affirm/accept their lifestyle choices." We should treat them as we treat anyone else lost in his or her lifestyle - with love, pity, but firmness in grasping hold of truth.

Athanasius
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:44 AM
Chicken pickin'
Here's the John 3:16 the world likes to hear:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that everyone shall have eternal life.

That's all this story illustrates--people want to accept certain parts of the Bible, twist the meaning of these parts and reject the rest (or re-define the rest).

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:49 AM
Romans 8 is to those who are already within the love of Christ. Though they might enjoy Romans 8, unfortunately because of their lifestyle choices they have rejected this love and therefore cannot partake in it.

When the world - and Tony Campolo - tell us to treat homosexuals better, they generally mean "affirm/accept their lifestyle choices." We should treat them as we treat anyone else lost in his or her lifestyle - with love, pity, but firmness in grasping hold of truth.

The problem is that we pick and choose which sinners we'll let in. If a person stood up and confessed to being an alcoholic or a drug user we would tell the world how we're helping those folks, but it scares us to death to think a homosexual might be in church with us. I painted a lesbian couples house last year. Never even witnessed to them. My wife and I became friends with one of them and simply loved her. Never once affirmed nor condemned her. She got saved back in January and is no longer in the relationship. She now has a boyfriend.

I think I'll continue to love em' seems to get better results.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:51 AM
Why in the world would they won't to come to Christ when His followers are so condemning?

apothanein kerdos
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:02 AM
The problem is that we pick and choose which sinners we'll let in. If a person stood up and confessed to being an alcoholic or a drug user we would tell the world how we're helping those folks, but it scares us to death to think a homosexual might be in church with us. I painted a lesbian couples house last year. Never even witnessed to them. My wife and I became friends with one of them and simply loved her. Never once affirmed nor condemned her. She got saved back in January and is no longer in the relationship. She now has a boyfriend.

I think I'll continue to love em' seems to get better results.

Who is this 'we?'

Remove your own plank before jumping all over everyone here. You're just ad judgmental as the people you're condemning in that you assume that we don't love them, that we don't help them, that we don't treat them just like we treat everyone else.

Sure hurts your credibility when you condemn people for condemning.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:11 AM
Who is this 'we?'

Remove your own plank before jumping all over everyone here. You're just ad judgmental as the people you're condemning in that you assume that we don't love them, that we don't help them, that we don't treat them just like we treat everyone else.

Sure hurts your credibility when you condemn people for condemning.

"We" includes me and the system that I was raised in. If its not you Great. and yes I am a "grace pharisee" I am very judgmental and it makes me sick. Apologies if you are offended. I just don't see it very much. Philip Yancey tells a story about a homeless prostitute who is asked why she didn't go to a church for help. Her response was "there's no way I would go to a church, they wouldn't help me." Whether "we" like it or not this is the reputation of Christianity. It is the fastest shrinking "religion" in the US.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:37 AM
"We" includes me and the system that I was raised in. If its not you Great. and yes I am a "grace pharisee" I am very judgmental and it makes me sick. Apologies if you are offended. I just don't see it very much. Philip Yancey tells a story about a homeless prostitute who is asked why she didn't go to a church for help. Her response was "there's no way I would go to a church, they wouldn't help me." Whether "we" like it or not this is the reputation of Christianity. It is the fastest shrinking "religion" in the US.

I hold a Reformed view on theology - though this generally ruffles some feathers, I'd like to take the time to say it is more than Calvinism (in fact, one can be Reformed without being a Calvinist).

One belief of Reformed people is that God works on our salvation in His own time. Now, some will say we accept, others will say He elects - that is completely irrelevant to this discussion. What is relevant, however, is that in Reformation theology we teach that the Holy Spirit is active in us before coming to salvation. This means we are patient while God works with the person. We do bring up the Gospel (because it is to the glory of God), but in a manner that doesn't berate the person.

Secondly, we value the imago Dei. This means that we value people not because they might provide great witnessing opportunities, but because they are important in and of themselves. Humans have intrinsic value and we treat them as such.

An example of this is that I have a very good friend that struggles with homosexuality. It's pretty well known in my church that he used to be very flamboyant. After coming to Christ he has given into temptation a few times and has had sex with other men. The times it has happened he felt horrible and guilty, but slowly has moved away from it and has lately even said he feels more and more attracted to women. It's still a struggle for him though and probably always will. No one in the church judges him, no one thinks less of him - he's just another sinner saved by grace.

Now, compare this to a young man we had that liked to show off his sexual prowess by sleeping with multiple women. He refused to repent and saw nothing wrong with his actions, so we had to remove him from the congregation.

As you can see, we're a church that sees all sinners as equal at the foot of the cross, but we're not afraid of standing up for truth or implementing discipline when needed (this was only the second person removed from the congregation in the 15 year history of the church).

My point on this isn't to give myself or our church a pat on the back - there are egos, there is arrogance, and there are problems. At the same time, don't think that just because someone speaks out against homosexuality or says that we do have to confront them on their sin that we're picking on homosexuals. I think anytime you confront any sinner (which is every human being), you have to confront that person on his or her major sins. Before we can come to Christ, we first have to understand why we need Him.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:48 AM
Sounds like a rare and wonderful place with rare and wonderful people. Sorry again for the generalization.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:41 AM
I heard someone say not too long ago that we could know we had created God in our own image when we believed He hated the people we hated. The idea that they are going to hell should bring tears and not derision. Moses and Paul were willing to trade places with them. What has happened to the Body of Christ?Mike,

There is a huge difference in loving folks and telling them the truth. I can read them their favorite little passage of Scripture and call it love and then let then go to hell... or I can read them that but because of love make it known that should they not turn from their sin... they are going to hell. Tony doesn't do that and that's just a fact. His version of love is nothing less than love that most worldly folk have. Again... folks will say that's sweet but they will still go to hell. That sort of love isn't really love at all.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:43 AM
Why in the world would they won't to come to Christ when His followers are so condemning?If a preacher is worth his salt then he isn't condemning. But Scripture is and SHOULD convict them. Reading their favorite passages... go figure. It's their favorite because it is one they can read without conviction.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:46 AM
"We" includes me and the system that I was raised in. If its not you Great. and yes I am a "grace pharisee" I am very judgmental and it makes me sick. Apologies if you are offended. I just don't see it very much. Philip Yancey tells a story about a homeless prostitute who is asked why she didn't go to a church for help. Her response was "there's no way I would go to a church, they wouldn't help me." Whether "we" like it or not this is the reputation of Christianity. It is the fastest shrinking "religion" in the US.Mike,

She don't need to go to the church and the church that let her "fellowship" with them is a foolish church. She would be full of leaven and they aren't supposed to let her in there. Church isn't for sinners. It is for saints. Believers. It is for their equipping.

If she knows enough to go to a church then she knows enough to know who she really needs to go to. Go to God. Repent of the sin. Turn from it and turn to God.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:02 PM
Mike,

She don't need to go to the church and the church that let her "fellowship" with them is a foolish church. She would be full of leaven and they aren't supposed to let her in there. Church isn't for sinners. It is for saints. Believers. It is for their equipping.

If she knows enough to go to a church then she knows enough to know who she really needs to go to. Go to God. Repent of the sin. Turn from it and turn to God.


You're absolutely right, the church should go to her. That's what Jesus did. He also fellowshipped with the like. Jesus didn't even condemn the woman caught in adultery.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:05 PM
Mike,

There is a huge difference in loving folks and telling them the truth. I can read them their favorite little passage of Scripture and call it love and then let then go to hell... or I can read them that but because of love make it known that should they not turn from their sin... they are going to hell. Tony doesn't do that and that's just a fact. His version of love is nothing less than love that most worldly folk have. Again... folks will say that's sweet but they will still go to hell. That sort of love isn't really love at all.

Other than telling them they're going to hell how would ProjectPeter love manifest itself? I would really like to know.

ravi4u2
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:14 PM
Other than telling them they're going to hell how would ProjectPeter love manifest itself? I would really like to know.But don't you think speaking the truth,
telling them they're going to hellis to love as well?

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:15 PM
Other than telling them they're going to hell how would ProjectPeter love manifest itself? I would really like to know.
It would manifest itself in the preaching of the gospel. Preached true... I don't have to tell them that their lifestyle is a sin... they will be convicted of it (if they aren't hardened to the point of no conviction already) and they have a decision to make.

I certainly wouldn't let them become part of the fellowship. The fellowship of believers is for that... believers. If you allow one in with that lifestyle (others as well but sticking with the topic)... then a pastor is acting foolish in allowing that sort of leaven in the lump. It will spread. That is naturally if we are going to hold to Scripture and not this politically correct way of dealing with sin.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:17 PM
Jesus had compassion. An old English word which means to "come to passion" or suffering. Literally "run to suffering."

RabbiKnife
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:20 PM
Jesus came not to heal the well but the sick.

Not to save the righteous, but the wicked.

Homosexuals generally do not like Christians because Christians condemn them while ignoring other sins in their own lives and churches that are not a repugnant to their heterosexuality.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:22 PM
It would manifest itself in the preaching of the gospel. Preached true... I don't have to tell them that their lifestyle is a sin... they will be convicted of it (if they aren't hardened to the point of no conviction already) and they have a decision to make.

I certainly wouldn't let them become part of the fellowship. The fellowship of believers is for that... believers. If you allow one in with that lifestyle (others as well but sticking with the topic)... then a pastor is acting foolish in allowing that sort of leaven in the lump. It will spread. That is naturally if we are going to hold to Scripture and not this politically correct way of dealing with sin.

Yet we allow greed, lust, gluttony, and many others to go without saying a word. Show me on place that Jesus refused fellowship with sinners. Just one.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:27 PM
But don't you think speaking the truth, is to love as well?
Yes I do. But its really hard to tell them God hates them in love. Its extreme I know but there are folks that believe God hates homosexuals. It bears repeating " we know we've made God in our own image when He hates the same people we do."

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:48 PM
Jesus had compassion. An old English word which means to "come to passion" or suffering. Literally "run to suffering."Do you honestly believe that Jesus would have kept the truth to Himself about the fate of such sin letting His compassionate side trump that truth? Come on Mike... He'd of made it clear the sin.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:49 PM
Jesus came not to heal the well but the sick.

Not to save the righteous, but the wicked.

Homosexuals generally do not like Christians because Christians condemn them while ignoring other sins in their own lives and churches that are not a repugnant to their heterosexuality.Sure Jesus did... but what did He come to save them from? Rest assured that it wasn't so they could continue in their immorality.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:51 PM
Do you honestly believe that Jesus would have kept the truth to Himself about the fate of such sin letting His compassionate side trump that truth? Come on Mike... He'd of made it clear the sin.

Show me just one place in scripture where Jesus refused fellowship because of sin. Heck show me one place that he told anybody other than religious Jews that they were going to hell/gehenna.

RabbiKnife
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:51 PM
Who even hinted at such a position?

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 01:59 PM
Who even hinted at such a position? Its been my experience when grace is preached the first thing out of some people's mouth is that "you are just saying people can do anything they want." No worries though, Paul was accused of the same thing. Pleasing men and saying that it was ok to sin. When grace is preached correctly its bound to happen.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:12 PM
Yet we allow greed, lust, gluttony, and many others to go without saying a word. Show me on place that Jesus refused fellowship with sinners. Just one.Mike,

Jesus going to the sinners with the gospel is not the same as letting them fellowship with the believers every time the door is open. When Jesus sent the disciples out He didn't tell them to go into their homes and hang out with them. He told them to go preach that the kingdom of God is at hand. They preached the gospel. If that gospel was rejected... they were to shake the dust off and make it known the fate of the city. Sexual immorality is contrary to the gospel of God Mike.

As to the other stuff... see this is what folks do. You start a topic and you start it on homosexuality. Then you want to make it about "what about all these other sins" and you know what.... some of those things are heart matters that we can't see offhand. It may rise up and become visible sure... might not. If it does then they would certainly need to be dealt with appropriately. You don't just boot someone out without trying to correct it first but that isn't what this thread was about. You started it... you do remember the OP right?

The homosexual is perishing Mike. If what you preach to them doesn't smell of death but smells of life then you know what... it is the wrong message. Same with any sinner but you picked this particular group to discuss. They need saved... yes. They need to repent and turn to God... yes. How will that happen if you don't preach the gospel. Not some watered down version of it... but the one that smells like death to those perishing.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:15 PM
Yes I do. But its really hard to tell them God hates them in love. Its extreme I know but there are folks that believe God hates homosexuals. It bears repeating " we know we've made God in our own image when He hates the same people we do."That is extreme and those groups are so small compared to the vast majority of Christian preachers that it wasn't even worth you typing out. :rolleyes:

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:20 PM
Mike,

Jesus going to the sinners with the gospel is not the same as letting them fellowship with the believers every time the door is open. When Jesus sent the disciples out He didn't tell them to go into their homes and hang out with them. He told them to go preach that the kingdom of God is at hand. They preached the gospel. If that gospel was rejected... they were to shake the dust off and make it known the fate of the city. Sexual immorality is contrary to the gospel of God Mike.

As to the other stuff... see this is what folks do. You start a topic and you start it on homosexuality. Then you want to make it about "what about all these other sins" and you know what.... some of those things are heart matters that we can't see offhand. It may rise up and become visible sure... might not. If it does then they would certainly need to be dealt with appropriately. You don't just boot someone out without trying to correct it first but that isn't what this thread was about. You started it... you do remember the OP right?

The homosexual is perishing Mike. If what you preach to them doesn't smell of death but smells of life then you know what... it is the wrong message. Same with any sinner but you picked this particular group to discuss. They need saved... yes. They need to repent and turn to God... yes. How will that happen if you don't preach the gospel. Not some watered down version of it... but the one that smells like death to those perishing.


This was part of the OP PP.


I am not approving of homosexual behavior. I am disapproving of a church that has forgotten how to love people that Jesus will never stop loving. And if you don't like it, join another club but don't call yourself a member of the church of Jesus Christ for we are the community of lovers and we love all kinds of people with all kinds of sin and that's your good fortune and mine too, for where would we be without such a church. And I want it to be the church that Christ wants it to be.

It was more about the Body than Homosexuals in my mind. and Jesus did fellowship with sinners everywhere, there were no churches to invite them to.

Athanasius
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:22 PM
Yes I do. But its really hard to tell them God hates them in love. Its extreme I know but there are folks that believe God hates homosexuals. It bears repeating " we know we've made God in our own image when He hates the same people we do."

Alright, but no one here is suggesting we go up to every homosexual we know and say 'God hates you in love'. Why do we believe homosexuality is a sin? Much in the same way everyone believes race is sacred, sexuality too is sacred. Made a certain way. Explaining the Christian position through some sort of lens (like the one above) is going to be quite hard to twist.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:23 PM
Show me just one place in scripture where Jesus refused fellowship because of sin. Heck show me one place that he told anybody other than religious Jews that they were going to hell/gehenna.
Oh goodness... I'll give you one and not going to post all of the various passages that speak of it. But this is enough to show folks that you're just wrong on this one.

Matthew 5:27 ¶"You have heard that it was said, `YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY´;
28 but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:24 PM
That is extreme and those groups are so small compared to the vast majority of Christian preachers that it wasn't even worth you typing out. :rolleyes:


:rolleyes:.................................;)

apothanein kerdos
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:26 PM
Why are grace and pointing out someone's lifestyle of sin seen as a balancing act? Shouldn't they be the same thing?

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:31 PM
Oh goodness... I'll give you one and not going to post all of the various passages that speak of it. But this is enough to show folks that you're just wrong on this one.

Matthew 5:27 ¶"You have heard that it was said, `YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY´;
28 but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell.

Who was He talking to? How many times did He say "you have heard it said?" Had anybody other than religious Jews heard the teaching of the Law? I'm pretty sure He's talking to religious Jews.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:33 PM
Why are grace and pointing out someone's lifestyle of sin seen as a balancing act? Shouldn't they be the same thing?


Yes they should.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:37 PM
Who was He talking to? How many times did He say "you have heard it said?" Had anybody other than religious Jews heard the teaching of the Law? I'm pretty sure He's talking to religious Jews.You think? No... he wasn't.

Matthew 5:1 And when He saw the multitudes, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him.
2 And opening His mouth He began to teach them, saying,

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:43 PM
This was part of the OP PP.



It was more about the Body than Homosexuals in my mind. and Jesus did fellowship with sinners everywhere, there were no churches to invite them to.New Testament Scripture consist of plenty of letters of direction once there was a church Mike. It consist of more than Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:47 PM
New Testament Scripture consist of plenty of letters of direction once there was a church Mike. It consist of more than Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

But Paul seemingly continues this way of thinking by saying we are supposed to kick unrepentant believers (or those that claim to be believers) out of the Church - he says nothing about discontinuing fellowship with self-avowed non-believers.

Now it is true that the Body of Christ functions best in discipleship when composed of like minded believers. At the same time, there's nothing in the Bible that forbids lost people from coming to Church just to hear a message (not to serve though).

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:48 PM
You think? No... he wasn't.

Matthew 5:1 And when He saw the multitudes, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him.
2 And opening His mouth He began to teach them, saying,

Ok, I guess I mistakenly thought the disciples were Jews. Which would have made them religious. My bad, I stand corrected.

That aside, you almost got me derailed myself, can you give me the place that Jesus refused fellowship with sinners.

The point is that the church has separated itself from sinners and sin that we deem worse than ours. I simply can no longer judge a person for a sin that I myself have never been tempted with.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 02:56 PM
New Testament Scripture consist of plenty of letters of direction once there was a church Mike. It consist of more than Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.


12 For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.



He didn't hold their sins against them.

Whispering Grace
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:03 PM
You know man... That's a very sweet story and I can say all the nonsense and we can all roast marshmallows and feel good about the story. Jim is probably a really nice guy and etc. etc. etc. Still... those homosexuals are going to go to hell. They like the Psalms and John keeps them going... blah. If they really liked any of that then they would repent of their sin and they would turn to God. This sort of stuff... while certainly sweet little stories in the eyes of the world... they are silly. In matters of eternity and God and doctrine... those boys and girls are going to die in their sin and go to hell. Old Tony boy can put that in his pipe and suck on it. Straight up fact and if he keeps preaching this sort of stuff... in truth... he will be right there with them. He is wrong. God don't care that they like the Psalms. God don't care that John's verses keep them going. God only cares if they repent and turn to Him. This sort of stuff is EXACTLY THE PROBLEM with the church today. The message those folks needed to hear... repent and turn to God. All the Bible reading in the world don't mean nothing unless that happens... and this is exactly why Campolo is loved by the greasiest of the greasy grace folk.

A hearty "Amen" to this.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:05 PM
Yes they should.

Then wouldn't this mean that both you and project peter are partially wrong?

In other words, look at the woman at the well. In this instance we see Jesus has literally no problem pointing out he sins. He points them out in a matter of fact manner. Then He turns around and offers her a solution for her sins.

This would mean two things:

(1) We are supposed to be around sinners and have fellowship with them, just like Christ did

(2) We shouldn't be ashamed or afraid to point out sin in their lives, even if it means they'll reject what you have to say

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:12 PM
But Paul seemingly continues this way of thinking by saying we are supposed to kick unrepentant believers (or those that claim to be believers) out of the Church - he says nothing about discontinuing fellowship with self-avowed non-believers.

Now it is true that the Body of Christ functions best in discipleship when composed of like minded believers. At the same time, there's nothing in the Bible that forbids lost people from coming to Church just to hear a message (not to serve though).Sure... and if they are in the gathering of believers... what are they supposed to be professing?

And sure Paul covered that as well. There is nothing at all wrong with having dinner with an unbeliever... great way to present the gospel to them in a very personal way. Nothing wrong with going to a ballgame or whatever with them for that same reasoning. But then folks need understand the whole... what fellowship has light with darkness.

2 Corinthians 6:13 Now in a like exchange -- I speak as to children -- open wide to us also.
14 ¶Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
17 "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.
18 "And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.


As well as Paul teaching them this...

1 Corinthians 15:33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."
34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

We cannot come out of the world in the sense that we never go among them. That is totally contrary to GO YE INTO and preach the gospel.

But when speaking of "fellowship" with them in the sense that Campelo is teaching and preaching and has for years... he is just wrong.

Interesting that you are arguing this point after reading your writing on the Emergent Church.

As to them coming to the church... I would never kick them out if they walked in to hear a message. That is a far cry from fellowship though eh?

This is the fellowship that we have with the believers (supposed to anyway).

koinonia

partnership, i.e. (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction: -- (to) communicate(-ation), communion, (contri-)distribution, fellowship.

This is something we still need to remember Israel as an example. You play in the dirt... you will get dirty. Bad company is just that. Fellowship with them... I challenge anyone to show me where Christ was credited with this sort of fellowship with sinners? He preached the gospel to them. He didn't hide from them and He took the message to them eating with them (the thing that frosted the Pharisee's undergarments. But that is a far cry from what is being spoken of here. Jesus came to save the sinner... He didn't do that by not preaching the message of the Kingdom. That is why He came. If someone can show me a pattern where Jesus didn't tell them to repent... then they may be on to something.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:12 PM
Then wouldn't this mean that both you and project peter are partially wrong?

In other words, look at the woman at the well. In this instance we see Jesus has literally no problem pointing out he sins. He points them out in a matter of fact manner. Then He turns around and offers her a solution for her sins.

This would mean two things:

(1) We are supposed to be around sinners and have fellowship with them, just like Christ did

(2) We shouldn't be ashamed or afraid to point out sin in their lives, even if it means they'll reject what you have to say

I'm probably more that partially wrong,:D but if PP is #1 and I'm #2 then I haven't said that at all. You should, just because there have been situations where I have not, doesn't mean that I don't think sin should be pointed out. My wife and I are talking to a friend of ours who is in a lesbian relationship and my wife let her know exactly what the bible said about homosexuality, my wife suggested that she talk to me. I am currently praying about how to do this in a loving way. She knows we love her though. I know that ultimately its here decision and that there will be consequences.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:15 PM
Sure... and if they are in the gathering of believers... what are they supposed to be professing?

And sure Paul covered that as well. There is nothing at all wrong with having dinner with an unbeliever... great way to present the gospel to them in a very personal way. Nothing wrong with going to a ballgame or whatever with them for that same reasoning. But then folks need understand the whole... what fellowship has light with darkness.

2 Corinthians 6:13 Now in a like exchange -- I speak as to children -- open wide to us also.
14 ¶Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
17 "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.
18 "And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.


As well as Paul teaching them this...

1 Corinthians 15:33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."
34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

We cannot come out of the world in the sense that we never go among them. That is totally contrary to GO YE INTO and preach the gospel.

But when speaking of "fellowship" with them in the sense that Campelo is teaching and preaching and has for years... he is just wrong.

Interesting that you are arguing this point after reading your writing on the Emergent Church.

As to them coming to the church... I would never kick them out if they walked in to hear a message. That is a far cry from fellowship though eh?

This is the fellowship that we have with the believers (supposed to anyway).

koinonia

partnership, i.e. (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction: -- (to) communicate(-ation), communion, (contri-)distribution, fellowship.

This is something we still need to remember Israel as an example. You play in the dirt... you will get dirty. Bad company is just that. Fellowship with them... I challenge anyone to show me where Christ was credited with this sort of fellowship with sinners? He preached the gospel to them. He didn't hide from them and He took the message to them eating with them (the thing that frosted the Pharisee's undergarments. But that is a far cry from what is being spoken of here. Jesus came to save the sinner... He didn't do that by not preaching the message of the Kingdom. That is why He came. If someone can show me a pattern where Jesus didn't tell them to repent... then they may be on to something.

In light of this are you saying that Jesus did or did not have fellowship with unbelievers?

Check one

______________ Did.

______________Did Not.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:17 PM
But when speaking of "fellowship" with them in the sense that Campelo is teaching and preaching and has for years... he is just wrong.

Interesting that you are arguing this point after reading your writing on the Emergent Church.

Well I was confused if you meant fellowship in general or in terms of close discipleship. You did clarify that position, however.

Likewise, as I've stated before I do believe the EC is right on a lot of things, but overall is wrong on their doctrine. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:31 PM
Ok, I guess I mistakenly thought the disciples were Jews. Which would have made them religious. My bad, I stand corrected. And you know you were speaking of the religious leaders too and not just "Jews". But hey.


That aside, you almost got me derailed myself, can you give me the place that Jesus refused fellowship with sinners.

The point is that the church has separated itself from sinners and sin that we deem worse than ours. I simply can no longer judge a person for a sin that I myself have never been tempted with.There is a difference Mike between sharing the gospel with them. There is a difference between that and "fellowship."

As to judging them... I don't. God will deal with that. If they come into the fellowship professing belief... that I judge and rightly so.

ravi4u2
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:33 PM
Yet we allow greed, lust, gluttony, and many others to go without saying a word. Show me on place that Jesus refused fellowship with sinners. Just one.Jesus had fellowship with sinners who wanted to repent. ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ is an untrue accusation. Is there even one instance where Jesus fellowshipped with a sinner who did not want to repent?

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:33 PM
Then wouldn't this mean that both you and project peter are partially wrong?

In other words, look at the woman at the well. In this instance we see Jesus has literally no problem pointing out he sins. He points them out in a matter of fact manner. Then He turns around and offers her a solution for her sins.

This would mean two things:

(1) We are supposed to be around sinners and have fellowship with them, just like Christ did

(2) We shouldn't be ashamed or afraid to point out sin in their lives, even if it means they'll reject what you have to sayI have no problem "being around sinners." Working the streets is something that I have spent MUCH time doing over the years. Again... that is a far cry from fellowship. I am suspecting that folks toss that word out there without thinking much what it means.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:35 PM
And you know you were speaking of the religious leaders too and not just "Jews". But hey.



Show me just one place in scripture where Jesus refused fellowship because of sin. Heck show me one place that he told anybody other than religious Jews that they were going to hell/gehenna.


This is exactly what I said PP.

ravi4u2
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:36 PM
Yes I do. But its really hard to tell them God hates them in love. Its extreme I know but there are folks that believe God hates homosexuals. It bears repeating " we know we've made God in our own image when He hates the same people we do."Nobody can change perceptions. And God does not hate them in love. God loves them [PERIOD]. He abhors all sin, including homosexuality.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:37 PM
Jesus had fellowship with sinners who wanted to repent. ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ is an untrue accusation. Is there even one instance where Jesus fellowshipped with a sinner who did not want to repent?


Is there one instance where Jesus made a person repent before He had fellowship with them?


"neither do I condemn you, now go and sin no more"

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:38 PM
In light of this are you saying that Jesus did or did not have fellowship with unbelievers?

Check one

______________ Did.

______________Did Not.
He ate with them. He shared the gospel with them. He told them crazy stuff like stop sinning. Fellowship... no. Again.. keeping with the OP and Campelo's teaching which you offered but a VERY small sample. I am very familiar with it and he's biblical wrong. Politically correct sure... but biblically he is full of error.

ravi4u2
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:39 PM
I'm probably more that partially wrong,:D but if PP is #1 and I'm #2 then I haven't said that at all. You should, just because there have been situations where I have not, doesn't mean that I don't think sin should be pointed out. My wife and I are talking to a friend of ours who is in a lesbian relationship and my wife let her know exactly what the bible said about homosexuality, my wife suggested that she talk to me. I am currently praying about how to do this in a loving way. She knows we love her though. I know that ultimately its here decision and that there will be consequences.That's wonderful! Followers of Christ should not be homophobic.

RabbiKnife
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:40 PM
Jesus fellowshipped in the truest sense of the word koinonia with Judas Iscariot...

ravi4u2
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:44 PM
Is there one instance where Jesus made a person repent before He had fellowship with them?


"neither do I condemn you, now go and sin no more"Repentance is a matter of the heart. Nobody (including Jesus) can 'make' another repent. The prostitute obviously repented, which she proved by breaking the alabaster jar. Matthew the tax-collector is another example. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

ravi4u2
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:46 PM
Jesus fellowshipped in the truest sense of the word koinonia with Judas Iscariot...Before he purposely chose to sin.

merjorg
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:47 PM
I don't disagree that homosexuality needs to be repented of. As I said earlier, it is flat-out wrong. It's sin. And the truth should be preached to people living this lifestyle, just as the truth should be preached to EVERYONE. And that's the whole point...at least to me...is that the gospel as to be preached to EVERYONE. There seems to be this "stance" in the body of Christ (and I am definitely not implying this about any of the posters in this thread...I'm just making a statement) that homosexuals are the worst of the worst...absolute filth. OK, so sin is filth...I understand that...but my point is that there seems to be this aroma in the air sometimes that homosexuality is worse.

If we had one next-door neighbor...a single guy in his 30's who works hard and brings home a different girl each weekend, drinks a lot of alcohol, etc. but who makes a good conversation and always makes it a point to invite you to his weekend BBQ. On the other side, maybe we have a homosexual couple who minds their own business and doesn't say much. I could be very wrong here, but it seems to me...that the general consensus in the Body of Christ is that "the single guy is a cool guy...he just needs to be witnessed to. Maybe we could even strike up some conversation and see where the Lord leads it." On the other hand, with the homosexuals, there seems to be this "hands off" mentality...almost as it to say, "I wouldn't touch them with a 10-foot pole...they're sinners and they're going to hell...anyone who says different is just flat out wrong cuz my bible says so." And that's the truth. They will go to hell. No doubting that. That's a fact. But, what about single dude on the other side? Why are we so compassionate for him and wanting to reach out to him and share the truth of our loving Savior with him? Why the "difference" in attitudes toward the 2 different types of sinners?

We could replace "single guy" with "single gal with 3 kids and she doesn't work, has a couple boyfriends, and has some mild drugs around the house". There's a lot more compassion for this situation than there is for the homosexuals. Why????? Sin is sin. They're both lost. They both need to repent. They both need to turn to the Lord.

I totally agree that homosexuality results in death. I'm not even arguing that point. I'm just confused about the attitude many choose to take towards different types of sin. Didn't Jesus die for it all? How can we differentiate between them or say one is worse. If we love "single guy" and "lady with 3 kids", then we have to love "Joan and Melissa" too. If are approach is to preach to homosexuals something that smells of death so that they repent, then we need to preach that same EXACT message to "single guy" too...even if single guy looks at you like you're nuts and tells you to go take a hike and never invites you to his BBQ again. I don't know...it seems like we want to stay in "good standing" with the likes of single guy...so that we can show him the way to repentance. But the homosexuals..."they're just lost! I'll just pray for them." The situations aren't any different. They both need the love of Jesus in their lives.

VerticalReality
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:48 PM
Jesus fellowshipped in the truest sense of the word koinonia with Judas Iscariot...

Did Judas start out the way he ended or did it happen over time? He was called the son of perdition for a reason, and he is the example of one who falls away from faith. The only other time that "son of perdition" is used in the Scriptures is in 2 Thessalonians 2 that speaks of the great falling away at the time of the Lord's Second Coming, and the revealing of the man of sin that tries to exalt himself above God.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:52 PM
Jesus fellowshipped in the truest sense of the word koinonia with Judas Iscariot...
Judas wasn't always a sinner... he was a believer. Even then... there was a time when Jesus sent Judas away turning him over to satan. Ponder it. ;)

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:52 PM
He ate with them. He shared the gospel with them. He told them crazy stuff like stop sinning. Fellowship... no. Again.. keeping with the OP and Campelo's teaching which you offered but a VERY small sample. I am very familiar with it and he's biblical wrong. Politically correct sure... but biblically he is full of error.


9 And as Jesus passed by from thence, he saw a man, called Matthew, sitting at the place of toll: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him. 10 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with Jesus and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Teacher with the publicans and sinners?


What were these folks actually accusing Jesus of doing?

RabbiKnife
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:54 PM
Let's just be honest.

Most Christian men are afraid of homosexuals because they have an unnatural fear that if they befriend a homosexual the queer guy with the straight eye might put a move on the Christian and he (the Christian) might like it.

Heterosexual men are afraid of homosexuals because most can't think of anything worse in their minds than being sodomized. We can watch a movie or TV show with a woman being raped in the story line with no problem, but let a man get raped (aka St. Elsewhere or The Shawshank Redemption) and we pucker up.

Our fears have overridden our Gospel mandate and colored our responses.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:55 PM
Judas wasn't always a sinner... he was a believer. Even then... there was a time when Jesus sent Judas away turning him over to satan. Ponder it. ;)


So Jesus had no clue that Judas was going to give up on Him?

Please, Please, Please lets not turn this into a Non_OSAS debate.

merjorg
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:56 PM
Matthew 22:37 (NIV) Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2022:35-40;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23908a)] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2022:35-40;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23910b)] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:58 PM
Let's just be honest.

Most Christian men are afraid of homosexuals because they have an unnatural fear that if they befriend a homosexual the queer guy with the straight eye might put a move on the Christian and he (the Christian) might like it.

Heterosexual men are afraid of homosexuals because most can't think of anything worse in their minds than being sodomized. We can watch a movie or TV show with a woman being raped in the story line with no problem, but let a man get raped (aka St. Elsewhere or The Shawshank Redemption) and we pucker up.

Our fears have overridden our Gospel mandate and colored our responses.Uh... alrighty then. :rolleyes:

ravi4u2
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:59 PM
What were these folks actually accusing Jesus of doing?
It is obvious that they heard the good news from Matthew and were at least considering repentance. Matthew again gave back more than he took after he repented. The passage you quoted is silent on why the publicans and sinners came to Jesus. Silence does not mean they remained unforgiven, unrepentant sinners.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 03:59 PM
Matthew 22:37 (NIV) Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2022:35-40;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23908a)] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2022:35-40;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23910b)] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."


He also said to love our enemies. How can we love them without having fellowship with them?

ravi4u2
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:01 PM
So Jesus had no clue that Judas was going to give up on Him?

Please, Please, Please lets not turn this into a Non_OSAS debate.But until he actually decided to sin...

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:02 PM
It is obvious that they heard the good news from Matthew and were at least considering repentance. Matthew again gave back more than he took after he repented. The passage you quoted is silent on why the publicans and sinners came to Jesus. Silence does not mean they remained unforgiven, unrepentant sinners.

I was referencing verse 11. What were they saying Jesus was guilty of by asking why he ate with them if it was not fellowship?

VerticalReality
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:02 PM
So Jesus had no clue that Judas was going to give up on Him?

Jesus knew that He would be betrayed. As to the timing of when He knew that Judas was the one who would be betray Him I don't know. If you are suggesting that Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him because He was omniscient, I would say that I disagree with that statement. I believe that Jesus received revelation from the Holy Spirit just as Christians do today. I do not believe He operated in omniscience while walking this earth.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:03 PM
But until he actually decided to sin...

I have a hard time, no I can't believe that God turns His fellowship on and off according to the degree of our sin.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:07 PM
So Jesus had no clue that Judas was going to give up on Him?

Please, Please, Please lets not turn this into a Non_OSAS debate.Has nothing to do with what Jesus knew or when Jesus knew. Had to do with the fact that there was a time Judas was turned over to satan. My point wasn't OSAS/NOSAS... read what I said.

ravi4u2
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:07 PM
I was referencing verse 11. What were they saying Jesus was guilty of by asking why he ate with them if it was not fellowship?An accusation means that it is untrue. Jesus came to fellowship with a repentant sinner Matthew. While he was eating with this repentant sinner, others came to sit with (not sup with) Jesus. There is a difference.

merjorg
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:08 PM
Let's just be honest.

Most Christian men are afraid of homosexuals because they have an unnatural fear that if they befriend a homosexual the queer guy with the straight eye might put a move on the Christian and he (the Christian) might like it.

Heterosexual men are afraid of homosexuals because most can't think of anything worse in their minds than being sodomized. We can watch a movie or TV show with a woman being raped in the story line with no problem, but let a man get raped (aka St. Elsewhere or The Shawshank Redemption) and we pucker up.

Our fears have overridden our Gospel mandate and colored our responses.

I actually think there's something to that, RabbiKnife. I think, generallyl speaking, that heterosexual men particularly despise homosexuality over other forms of sin. Maybe we heard dad or society as we were growing up saying, "If you become homosexual I'll disown you" and so that becomes like the most unthinkable, disgusting act on the face of the earth. But while daddy was saying that to us, he forgot about his own foul mouth and alcohol abuse, just to name a couple.

Again, sin is sin.

ravi4u2
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:09 PM
I have a hard time, no I can't believe that God turns His fellowship on and off according to the degree of our sin.not degree of sin but sin...even the Father turned His face away from Jesus (stopped fellowshipping) when Jesus took on the sins of the world in the crucifix.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:10 PM
What were these folks actually accusing Jesus of doing?
Eating with sinners. Strictly forbidden by the good old religious boys. To them that was equal to entering the home of a Gentile and eating with them.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:13 PM
He also said to love our enemies. How can we love them without having fellowship with them?Jesus gave us that example Mike.

Matthew 5:38 ¶"You have heard that it was said, `AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.´
39 "But I say to you, do not resist him who is evil; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 "And if anyone wants to sue you, and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
41 "And whoever shall force you to go one mile, go with him two.
42 "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
43 ¶"You have heard that it was said, `YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR, and hate your enemy.´
44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you
45 in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax-gatherers do the same?
47 "And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more than others ? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Doesn't tell us to go and make them our best buddies and spend lots of time with them!

Love them by sharing the gospel with them. Any time you get the chance.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:15 PM
I have a hard time, no I can't believe that God turns His fellowship on and off according to the degree of our sin.Uh... have you ever read the Old Testament and the examples given us in those books? Sure God does. Always has... always will. Started at the Garden Mike.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:28 PM
Uh... have you ever read the Old Testament and the examples given us in those books? Sure God does. Always has... always will. Started at the Garden Mike.

NEVER. No wonder the Church is in such trouble. God Himself covered their shame in the garden. He in no way stopped fellowship with them. They hid and he went after them.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:35 PM
NEVER. No wonder the Church is in such trouble. God Himself covered their shame in the garden. He in no way stopped fellowship with them. They hid and he went after them.
Genesis 3:21 And the LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
22 ¶Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" --
23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every direction, to guard the way to the tree of life.

Everything changed that day Mike. It isn't a fairy tale where they all lived happily ever after.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:38 PM
Genesis 3:21 And the LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
22 ¶Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" --
23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every direction, to guard the way to the tree of life.

Everything changed that day Mike. It isn't a fairy tale where they all lived happily ever after.


____________________________________________

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 05:06 PM
____________________________________________
Isaiah 59:2 *But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He does not hear.
3 *For your hands are defiled with blood, And your fingers with iniquity; Your lips have spoken falsehood, Your tongue mutters wickedness.

Fellowship broken Mike.

Isaiah 1:4 *¶Alas, sinful nation, People weighed down with iniquity, Offspring of evildoers, Sons who act corruptly! They have abandoned the LORD, They have despised the Holy One of Israel, They have turned away from Him.
5 *¶Where will you be stricken again, As you continue in your rebellion? The whole head is sick, And the whole heart is faint.
6 *From the sole of the foot even to the head There is nothing sound in it, Only bruises, welts, and raw wounds, Not pressed out or bandaged, Nor softened with oil.
7 *¶Your land is desolate, Your cities are burned with fire, Your fields -- strangers are devouring them in your presence; It is desolation, as overthrown by strangers.
8 *And the daughter of Zion is left like a shelter in a vineyard, Like a watchman's hut in a cucumber field, like a besieged city.
9 *Unless the LORD of hosts Had left us a few survivors, We would be like Sodom, We would be like Gomorrah.
10 *¶Hear the word of the LORD, You rulers of Sodom; Give ear to the instruction of our God, You people of Gomorrah.
11 *"What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams, And the fat of fed cattle. And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs, or goats.
12 *"When you come to appear before Me, Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
13 *"Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies -- I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
14 *"I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts, They have become a burden to Me. I am weary of bearing them.
15 *"So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you, Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood.
16 *¶"Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil,
17 *Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless; Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow.
18 *¶"Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool.
19 *"If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land;
20 *"But if you refuse and rebel, You will be devoured by the sword." Truly, the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Fellowship broken Mike.

It is throughout the Scripture.

RabbiKnife
Jul 23rd 2008, 05:11 PM
There is a significant difference between "fellowship broken" and "sonship abolished."

Not the same at all.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 05:27 PM
Um... not really. Certainly not in those passages that I just provided. What more fellowship/partnership can there be than between a father and a son?

RabbiKnife
Jul 23rd 2008, 05:33 PM
The Prodigal was not in fellowship with the Father but was still a Son.

Do you believe in repeated regeneration? It's the only thing I can think of that aligns with your position.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 05:45 PM
The Prodigal was not in fellowship with the Father but was still a Son.

Do you believe in repeated regeneration? It's the only thing I can think of that aligns with your position.


...............the son broke fellowship with the Father and not vise versa. Good Call RabbiKnife.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 06:12 PM
The Prodigal was not in fellowship with the Father but was still a Son.

Do you believe in repeated regeneration? It's the only thing I can think of that aligns with your position.
Actually while the son was gone... the son was dead. It wasn't until he returned to the father that the son was alive again.

Folks can call it whatever religious term they want to tie to it. It teaches ultimately to repent and turn back to God. It was necessary for the son to live again.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 06:12 PM
...............the son broke fellowship with the Father and not vise versa. Good Call RabbiKnife.
There was no fellowship with a dead son. ;)

RabbiKnife
Jul 23rd 2008, 06:47 PM
Do you believe that a Christian who sins and dies before he confesses that sin goes to hell?

Firefighter
Jul 23rd 2008, 06:56 PM
Actually while the son was gone... the son was dead. It wasn't until he returned to the father that the son was alive again.

Folks can call it whatever religious term they want to tie to it. It teaches ultimately to repent and turn back to God. It was necessary for the son to live again.

Christ was painting a picture of mankind from Adam until Christ's atoning work at Calvary, not of an individual's life.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 06:58 PM
Do you believe that a Christian who sins and dies before he confesses that sin goes to hell?
That would depend on variables. I'm quite certain that you and I would define Christian quite differently.

If they are practicing sin and before that time they walked righteously for whatever time... sure they could. God is just to forgive but God is also faithful. His ways don't change.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 06:59 PM
PP We will never agree on this. This is a grave matter in Christianity; those things that we are so divided on that the world will never see unity. If I could change my mind for the sake of unity I would. But it goes against the Character that I believe God to have. I know that it goes against the Character that you believe God to have to believe. It drives people away and I believe that you and I will be more responsible than the folks that are turned off by our differences on judgment day. I simply don't know what the answer is.
Some scary stuff.

:note::help::cry:

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:00 PM
Christ was painting a picture of mankind from Adam until Christ's atoning work at Calvary, not of an individual's life.


Yep its the salvation story.

Firefighter
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:02 PM
What he is asking is if YOU were driving down the road and looked up to see an 18 wheeler 5 feet away, headed straight for you and you said "OH POOPY!" (insert vulgar word for poopy) and then died while that word was still leaving your lips, would you go to heaven?

-OR-

If YOU fell into temptation and slept with a woman out of wedlock, died of a heart attack while in the act, would you go to heaven?

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:03 PM
That would depend on variables. I'm quite certain that you and I would define Christian quite differently.

If they are practicing sin and before that time they walked righteously for whatever time... sure they could. God is just to forgive but God is also faithful. His ways don't change.


We simply can't be sure of our salvation according to this mindset.

What if they are practicing hate, or self righteousness, or greed, or gluttony, or.....................?

Firefighter
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:04 PM
I'm quite certain that you and I would define Christian quite differently.

Now I am curious. Define Christian please.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:09 PM
Christ was painting a picture of mankind from Adam until Christ's atoning work at Calvary, not of an individual's life.I see. So that has no application to an individual? Interesting and would like to hear that explanation. ;)

Firefighter
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:12 PM
Easy. Mankind was in fellowship with God in the garden. Mankind was led off by our own lusts and temptation by which death entered into the world. Christ made our way back home. We will enjoy a "marriage supper" that I am sure will include a fatted calf.

Simple.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:13 PM
PP We will never agree on this. This is a grave matter in Christianity; those things that we are so divided on that the world will never see unity. If I could change my mind for the sake of unity I would. But it goes against the Character that I believe God to have. I know that it goes against the Character that you believe God to have to believe. It drives people away and I believe that you and I will be more responsible than the folks that are turned off by our differences on judgment day. I simply don't know what the answer is.
Some scary stuff.

:note::help::cry:Sure the world isn't going to see unity. There are too many people that claim Christianity now and yet they don't preach a gospel in accord with godliness.

What you and I will be responsible for is if we spoke the truth in love. But if you do that... your message will have the smell of death to those perishing Mike. There are many passages that let us know that the world is going to hate us. They hated Jesus... how much more us? When they love your message (and Campelo's message is very well received by the world and he is not alone) then your message is broke.

Firefighter
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:15 PM
The world flocked to Jesus, it was the religious crowd that crucified Him...

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:19 PM
The world flocked to Jesus, it was the religious crowd that crucified Him...
The world (loosely speaking) flocked to Him but they didn't believe and even many of those that believe Jesus did not commit Himself to because He knew their heart or they came because he fed them etc. The world hated him. Those are His words... I didn't just make that up. ;)

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 09:43 PM
Sure the world isn't going to see unity. There are too many people that claim Christianity now and yet they don't preach a gospel in accord with godliness.

What you and I will be responsible for is if we spoke the truth in love. But if you do that... your message will have the smell of death to those perishing Mike. There are many passages that let us know that the world is going to hate us. They hated Jesus... how much more us? When they love your message (and Campelo's message is very well received by the world and he is not alone) then your message is broke.


Lets see who hated Jesus' message?

Was it the woman caught in adultery?
Was it the woman at the well?
Was it the maniac living in the grave yard?
How bout the Roman soldier at the foot of the cross?
Was there anyone called a sinner that wanted Jesus crucified?


Man I just don't see anyone who hated the message except the Law Keepers. The ones that said you had to keep the rules to have fellowship with God. The Pharisees. Yeah, they hated the message and they hated the Man. They hated those greasy grace folks. They hated Paul too. They called him a people pleaser. They said that he was telling folks that they could sin all they wanted because he said that where sin abounds, grace does much more abound; because He said that God was in Christ on the cross reconciling sinners to Himself.

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 11:20 PM
Lets see who hated Jesus' message?

Was it the woman caught in adultery?
Was it the woman at the well?
Was it the maniac living in the grave yard?
How bout the Roman soldier at the foot of the cross?
Was there anyone called a sinner that wanted Jesus crucified?


Man I just don't see anyone who hated the message except the Law Keepers. The ones that said you had to keep the rules to have fellowship with God. The Pharisees. Yeah, they hated the message and they hated the Man. They hated those greasy grace folks. They hated Paul too. They called him a people pleaser. They said that he was telling folks that they could sin all they wanted because he said that where sin abounds, grace does much more abound; because He said that God was in Christ on the cross reconciling sinners to Himself.Oh yeah... the Romans LOVED their message! Come on Mike... you do know history right?

ProjectPeter
Jul 23rd 2008, 11:32 PM
John 7:5 *For not even His brothers were believing in Him.
6 *Jesus therefore said to them, "My time is not yet at hand, but your time is always opportune.
7 *"The world cannot hate you; but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.
8 *"Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come."


John 15:18 *"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you.
19 *"If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
20 *"Remember the word that I said to you, `A slave is not greater than his master.´ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
21 *"But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me.
22 *"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.
23 *"He who hates Me hates My Father also.
24 *"If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.
25 *"But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, `THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.´
26 *"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me,
27 *and you will bear witness also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.



Here is the problem Mike... the world is not just the religious folk that have the devil for a daddy... it is the world who just as well has the devil for a daddy.

mikebr
Jul 24th 2008, 01:54 AM
John 7:5 *For not even His brothers were believing in Him.
6 *Jesus therefore said to them, "My time is not yet at hand, but your time is always opportune.
7 *"The world cannot hate you; but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.
8 *"Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come."


John 15:18 *"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you.
19 *"If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
20 *"Remember the word that I said to you, `A slave is not greater than his master.´ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
21 *"But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me.
22 *"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.
23 *"He who hates Me hates My Father also.
24 *"If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.
25 *"But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, `THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.´
26 *"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me,
27 *and you will bear witness also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.



Here is the problem Mike... the world is not just the religious folk that have the devil for a daddy... it is the world who just as well has the devil for a daddy.


It will do absolutely no good to get into "history." I was discussing what scripture taught. The truth of the matter is that Jesus had a closer relationship with sinful people than he did Law Keepers. To say otherwise is scripturally dishonest.

Athanasius
Jul 24th 2008, 01:58 AM
Hey mike, don't tell that Jesus, or to Paul.
Paul being one of those former Law Keepers... Taught by Christ after his ascension.

ravi4u2
Jul 24th 2008, 10:22 AM
It will do absolutely no good to get into "history." I was discussing what scripture taught. The truth of the matter is that Jesus had a closer relationship with sinful people than he did Law Keepers. To say otherwise is scripturally dishonest.
In that the sinful people (the common jew),did not know the requirements of the law as did the law keepers.

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2008, 02:35 PM
It will do absolutely no good to get into "history." I was discussing what scripture taught. The truth of the matter is that Jesus had a closer relationship with sinful people than he did Law Keepers. To say otherwise is scripturally dishonest.No one is denying that Mike. But then you are trying to take that somewhere else in this thread where it really has no business going... just like Campelo has done. Just because Jesus ate with sinner and gave them the message of the gospel does not at all mean that Jesus was "tolerant" of the sins of those sinners. The very fact that Jesus would tell them clearly to stop sinning... makes that clear. Look at what He told the man with the withered hand... stop sinning lest something worse happen to you. Look at the message at the mount... if your right hand messes you up then cut that thing off. Better to go through this life maimed than go to hell with both those hands. Jesus was not in ANY fashion tolerant on sin. Just because He came to save sinners... doesn't mean His message was anything short of what it really was.

That example Campelo used with the old guy and the funeral... that was tolerating the sin. Nothing about stop it in there. There lies the error.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 24th 2008, 02:56 PM
The parable of the prodigal son isn't hard to understand once we put it in its proper context. The first verse set the context:

"Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. 2And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, "This man receives sinners and eats with them."


In other words, the Pharisees simply did not understand why this man stayed around sinners. 'Sinners,' in their view, were the reason Israel was in captivity. They obviously knew Jesus was a great teacher - even if they disagreed - so they were angry about His willingness to be around the people that caused Israel all of its woes.

He responds to their grumbling with three parables. The first one deals with losing 1 sheep out of 100. He says that there is rejoicing over the 1 sheep that has come back to the flock rather than over 99 that didn't need to return.

The second parable deals with a lady losing 1 coin out of 10 and celebrating over finding this one coin.

The common theme in the two is that God is happier when a sinner repents of his actions than over 99 righteous people who need no repentance. So what is Jesus getting at?

He makes it blindingly clear in the parable of the prodigal son.

Here we have the son doing the following in the parable:

(1) Cursing the father (v. 11)
(2) Demanding his inheritance (v. 12)
(3) Going out among the nations (v. 12)
(4) Living as the nations do (v. 12)
(5) Becoming enslaved to the nations (v. 15)
(6) Violating the covenantal law by being around pigs (v. 16)

Why does Jesus go to such a great length to describe the above situation as such? The reason is simple: He is telling the story of Israel. The Pharisees had just been grumbling about His acceptance of the Lost - the ones the above story describes - so Jesus agrees with them on this issue; these people are horrible sinners that have committed horrible acts. He then, however, turns around and shows how the Father is so quick to forgive them of their sins and that the older brother - though living rightly - is wrong in his condemnation of his son.

Jesus, in a round about way, is condemning the Pharisees present. It is no coincidence that Luke says the Pharisees were grumbling and then the older brother in the Prodigal Son story has the same attitude. The point Jesus was making is that the Kingdom of God had come and the sinners were just as welcome so long as they repented.

Jesus is telling the story of Israel up to that point - there had always been a majority of rebellious Jews and a minority of a remnant of Jews. The Pharisees - up to that point - had for the most part actually been a remnant. Jesus was telling them to accept these sinners into this coming kingdom. The parable has literally nothing to do with the Church or even with how salvation functions.

The application we can get out of it today is to accept people that come to Christ, regardless of their past. In a broader sense we could say it applies to all humanity (though the original meaning was specifically for Israel), but there is no way to apply it to individual salvation, or someone losing salvation, or even someone rebelling against God. The context simply doesn't allow this.

It also means something in the application of this thread - we need to be willing to go out to sinners and try to bring them into the fold. It means we cannot tolerate sin. Honestly, only a devaluation of depravity would cause us to try to tip-toe around someone's sin. "Well if I point it out they'll be offended." Of course they will, we love to sin. At the same time, their ultimate plight in life - homeless, psychologically distraught, lonely - is caused by their sin. When we feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and give shelter to the homeless, though we should do these things regardless of how a person responds to a call from the Gospel, it is our duty as loving Christians to point out how their sin has brought them to this point. We are called to help because of the intrinsic value in humanity, but we are only helping symptoms; until we deal with the sin, the person will forever be in pain.

How loving is it to ignore the ultimate cause of a person's physical plight?

mikebr
Jul 24th 2008, 03:12 PM
No one is denying that Mike. But then you are trying to take that somewhere else in this thread where it really has no business going... just like Campelo has done. Just because Jesus ate with sinner and gave them the message of the gospel does not at all mean that Jesus was "tolerant" of the sins of those sinners. The very fact that Jesus would tell them clearly to stop sinning... makes that clear. Look at what He told the man with the withered hand... stop sinning lest something worse happen to you. Look at the message at the mount... if your right hand messes you up then cut that thing off. Better to go through this life maimed than go to hell with both those hands. Jesus was not in ANY fashion tolerant on sin. Just because He came to save sinners... doesn't mean His message was anything short of what it really was.

That example Campelo used with the old guy and the funeral... that was tolerating the sin. Nothing about stop it in there. There lies the error.


You are the one who has taken this thread where it has gone. You immediately attacked the messenger and have disregarded the message.

The message was that homosexuals want to know God but Christians have hated them to the point that they disregard the sinner along with the sin. You can deny it all you want to PP, but its the truth.

ravi4u2
Jul 24th 2008, 03:43 PM
The message was that homosexuals want to know God but Christians have hated them to the point that they disregard the sinner along with the sinI think that is too broad a brush to paint with...an over generalization...practicing homosexuals who do not want to repent are looking for endorsements. These may be looking for a god, but He is not the God of the followers of Christ. homosexuality is a sin but so is adultery, thievery, lie...Even if homosexuals claim that the homosexual feelings come naturally to them and asking them to suppress the feelings is unnatural, so what? The Word teaches us to reject the natural so that the Spirit may have imminence. In fact, Paul says that the natural is against the spiritual. Just because someone is born with autistic tendencies, do we try to stop helping him because the autistic tendencies come naturally to him? Do we not find ways and means to help him overcome his natural autistic tendencies?

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2008, 04:10 PM
You are the one who has taken this thread where it has gone. You immediately attacked the messenger and have disregarded the message.

The message was that homosexuals want to know God but Christians have hated them to the point that they disregard the sinner along with the sin. You can deny it all you want to PP, but its the truth.It is not the truth Mike. That may be the truth in the world you live in but rest assured I have traveled to churches across the world and that is just not the case.

And the message needed to be disregarded because it is wrong. Campelo is wrong too and the message was devoid of the gospel truth being told that group of homosexuals.

It made it out as a bad thing because other preachers couldn't be found to do the funeral. SO WHAT? Why did that preacher even bother? Let the dead bury the dead... they don't need a disciple of Jesus to do that. They could have had anyone do it. But he makes it into a preacher thing and no preacher is required to bury someone... saint or sinner. :rolleyes:

It was just another Campelo message about how horrible the evangelical church has become and how uptight they are etc. While there is some truth to that... the brush is way to wide that he and you paint with.

mikebr
Jul 24th 2008, 05:05 PM
It is not the truth Mike. That may be the truth in the world you live in but rest assured I have traveled to churches across the world and that is just not the case.

And the message needed to be disregarded because it is wrong. Campelo is wrong too and the message was devoid of the gospel truth being told that group of homosexuals.

It made it out as a bad thing because other preachers couldn't be found to do the funeral. SO WHAT? Why did that preacher even bother? Let the dead bury the dead... they don't need a disciple of Jesus to do that. They could have had anyone do it. But he makes it into a preacher thing and no preacher is required to bury someone... saint or sinner. :rolleyes:

It was just another Campelo message about how horrible the evangelical church has become and how uptight they are etc. While there is some truth to that... the brush is way to wide that he and you paint with.


Is the fact that the Christian Church is declining greatly (Barna) a problem with the church itself or is it humanity in general. It grew regardless in the first century. It would be a stretch to say that the US is worse that Rome was.

theleast
Jul 24th 2008, 05:15 PM
There are all kinds of sin in the world. Homosexuality is just one sin among many.

Christ ate with sinners and publicans because that's who needed him the most.

We are to follow that example. I'm not saying to excuse sin. Preach the gospel of repentance to all sinners, but to kick someone out of your church for being gay would be contrary to what we are taught.

Just had to say that.

Athanasius
Jul 24th 2008, 05:17 PM
We are to follow that example. I'm not saying to excuse sin. Preach the gospel of repentance to all sinners, but to kick someone out of your church for being gay would be contrary to what we are taught.

Church is for believers, not non-believers. Kicking them out is exactly what Christ taught. Just so happens that it was Paul who said it.

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2008, 06:20 PM
Is the fact that the Christian Church is declining greatly (Barna) a problem with the church itself or is it humanity in general. It grew regardless in the first century. It would be a stretch to say that the US is worse that Rome was.The US is worse than Rome and in many ways so not a stretch at all Mike. It is different because times, ways, means, al of that is different. And the church is shrinking because it is falling away. That is no mystery... it was foretold in Scripture a long time ago.

And even if not... your logic concludes it is shrinking because we don't allow "homosexual 'Christian's'" in the mix? That works fine for a lot of churches now days but then those churches are also one's that are devoid of most anything biblical. So again... so what?

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2008, 06:22 PM
There are all kinds of sin in the world. Homosexuality is just one sin among many.

Christ ate with sinners and publicans because that's who needed him the most.

We are to follow that example. I'm not saying to excuse sin. Preach the gospel of repentance to all sinners, but to kick someone out of your church for being gay would be contrary to what we are taught.

Just had to say that.
1 Corinthians 5:1 *It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2 *And you have become arrogant, and have not mourned instead, in order that the one who had done this deed might be removed from your midst.
3 *For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4 *In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 *I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 *Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough ?
7 *Clean out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8 *Let us therefore celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 *¶I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 *I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters; for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 *But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he should be an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler -- not even to eat with such a one.
12 *For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church ?
13 *But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

mikebr
Jul 24th 2008, 07:19 PM
Yes remove the wicked man, just don't pick and choose what is wicked. Greed is wicked, you wanna talk about how churches spend their money, gluttony is wicked, let's talk about overweight Christians. Divorce is wicked, more prevalent in the church now. How bout hate, is hatred wicked. OH I forgot we're supposed to hate those that God hates.

The problem is that there would be no one left PP. You pick the sins that you are not guilty of and have probably never even been tempted with. Unless you are sinless?

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2008, 07:27 PM
Yes remove the wicked man, just don't pick and choose what is wicked. Greed is wicked, you wanna talk about how churches spend their money, gluttony is wicked, let's talk about overweight Christians. Divorce is wicked, more prevalent in the church now. How bout hate, is hatred wicked. OH I forgot we're supposed to hate those that God hates.

The problem is that there would be no one left PP. You pick the sins that you are not guilty of and have probably never even been tempted with. Unless you are sinless?I added some bold for you in that passage Mike. Paul had a rather healthy list that covers a lot of area.

As to all your other going on... Scripture says what it says. It is apparent that you don't like what it says but all rants aside... you have to contend with that passage that you are clearly ignoring. ;)

apothanein kerdos
Jul 24th 2008, 07:28 PM
1 Corinthians 5:1 *It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2 *And you have become arrogant, and have not mourned instead, in order that the one who had done this deed might be removed from your midst.
3 *For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4 *In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 *I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 *Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough ?
7 *Clean out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8 *Let us therefore celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 *¶I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 *I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters; for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 *But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he should be an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler -- not even to eat with such a one.
12 *For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church ?
13 *But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.


You should probably bold the entire part where it says:

I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters; for then you would have to go out of the world.
;)

mikebr
Jul 24th 2008, 07:32 PM
I added some bold for you in that passage Mike. Paul had a rather healthy list that covers a lot of area.

As to all your other going on... Scripture says what it says. It is apparent that you don't like what it says but all rants aside... you have to contend with that passage that you are clearly ignoring. ;)

What of the previous post PP?:rolleyes:

mikebr
Jul 24th 2008, 07:41 PM
9-13 I wrote you in my earlier letter that you shouldn't make yourselves at home among the sexually promiscuous. I didn't mean that you should have nothing at all to do with outsiders of that sort. Or with crooks, whether blue or white-collar. Or with spiritual phonies, for that matter. You'd have to leave the world entirely to do that! But I am saying that you shouldn't act as if everything is just fine when a friend who claims to be a Christian is promiscuous or crooked, is flip with God or rude to friends, gets drunk or becomes greedy and predatory. You can't just go along with this, treating it as acceptable behavior. I'm not responsible for what the outsiders do, but don't we have some responsibility for those within our community of believers? God decides on the outsiders, but we need to decide when our brothers and sisters are out of line and, if necessary, clean house.

What of these folks?

mikebr
Jul 24th 2008, 08:00 PM
“If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.” On the day of the Feast of St. Peter the Apostle, 1521, Martin Luther

So good I had to post it again. Originally posted on the Too Much Grace thread.

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2008, 08:17 PM
You should probably bold the entire part where it says:

I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters; for then you would have to go out of the world.
;)Again... eat with them. Share the gospel with them. Share it as often as you possibly can share it. When they get saved then bring them into the fellowship of believers.

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2008, 08:19 PM
What of the previous post PP?:rolleyes:No clue which post you are speaking of. The previous to the one I posted I think was from Xel... I wasn't responding to him..

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2008, 08:20 PM
What of these folks?
Mike,

The reason we are not responsible for them is because they ain't among the body of Christ. :rolleyes: How does that not make total sense?

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2008, 08:21 PM
What of these folks?

And if they profess to be believers and act like that... kick them out and don't even eat with them. That's right there... what it says.

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2008, 08:23 PM
On the day of the Feast of St. Peter the Apostle, 1521, Martin Luther

So good I had to post it again. Originally posted on the Too Much Grace thread.

If he believed that then it was a foolish belief. If he taught that then I'd not want to stand in his shoes come that day. And also a perfect example of someone who would SHRIEK if someone said they preached license... but that is exactly what that message is.

RabbiKnife
Jul 24th 2008, 08:24 PM
Don't anyone get whiplash here....I'm going to jump in on ProPeter's side for a minute!!!


:lol:

Personally, I don't think that we should EVER invite unbelievers to a gathering of believers when the purpose of the gathering is for worship, praise, edification, exhortation, and teaching. They don't belong there and we do them a disservice by dragging them into a foreign environment.

On the other hand, we should ALWAYS invite unbelievers to a gathering of believers when the purpose is to build relationships with the unbelievers so that they might be amazed at the joy and the "hope that is within us."

OK, now I'll go back to the dark side....

:o

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2008, 08:29 PM
Right... that is for the edification of the saints. Now... if an unbeliever comes in... cool. It can quick enough turn into a gospel message easy enough! :D

mikebr
Jul 24th 2008, 08:53 PM
Mike,

The reason we are not responsible for them is because they ain't among the body of Christ. :rolleyes: How does that not make total sense?


It says absolutely nothing about being responsible for them and neither did I.


9-13 I wrote you in my earlier letter that you shouldn't make yourselves at home among the sexually promiscuous. I didn't mean that you should have nothing at all to do with outsiders of that sort. Or with crooks, whether blue or white-collar. Or with spiritual phonies, for that matter. You'd have to leave the world entirely to do that! But I am saying that you shouldn't act as if everything is just fine when a friend who claims to be a Christian is promiscuous or crooked, is flip with God or rude to friends, gets drunk or becomes greedy and predatory. You can't just go along with this, treating it as acceptable behavior. I'm not responsible for what the outsiders do, but don't we have some responsibility for those within our community of believers? God decides on the outsiders, but we need to decide when our brothers and sisters are out of line and, if necessary, clean house.


Should we in anyway minister to lost people?
All I'm getting from you PP is that we need to tell them their going to hell.

This is the gist of my posting.


As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

You seem to be saying otherwise.

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2008, 09:04 PM
It says absolutely nothing about being responsible for them and neither did I.




Should we in anyway minister to lost people?
All I'm getting from you PP is that we need to tell them their going to hell.

This is the gist of my posting.



You seem to be saying otherwise.

They sure need to know of the judgment to come Mike. If they aren't hearing of that then they aren't hearing the gospel. They need to hear that their sin is in fact contrary to the gospel and they need to repent from said sin and turn to God. If they are still doing that sin then they are still a slave to that sin and haven't turned to God forsaking their sin. They are still bound for hell... no matter how many times they say Jesus save me.

1 John 3:1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is.
3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

If they are practicing sin then they are of the devil. If of the devil then what place do they have in the body of Christ?

mikebr
Jul 24th 2008, 09:22 PM
I'm not nor have I ever said that they don't need to hear of the judgment to come. I believe we all do. Judgment is not the Gospel. What does Gospel mean? Good News. The Good News is that Jesus took away the sins of the World. Unless Ol' John was wrong. How can people live in the reality of that without knowing it. The don't get it when the first thing they hear is "turn or burn." It may scare them into acting a certain way but that which is started by fear must be sustained by fear. That's the exact reason for the No-Osas doctrine. We better keep these people fearful or they will go crazy and sin, sin, sin. The Love of God constrains me. I love because I was first loved. Not because I'm afraid not to. I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live yet not I but Christ that lives within me and the life that I now live I live by the Son of God who loved me and gave His life for me.


While it is effective to prompt people to make on-the-spot commitments to Christ, it has rarely led to spiritual passion and growth.
Isn’t it odd that the most compelling argument to know God is the horror of not doing so?Wayne Jacobsen

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 12:30 AM
I'm not nor have I ever said that they don't need to hear of the judgment to come. I believe we all do. Judgment is not the Gospel. What does Gospel mean? Good News. The Good News is that Jesus took away the sins of the World. Unless Ol' John was wrong. How can people live in the reality of that without knowing it. The don't get it when the first thing they hear is "turn or burn." It may scare them into acting a certain way but that which is started by fear must be sustained by fear. That's the exact reason for the No-Osas doctrine. We better keep these people fearful or they will go crazy and sin, sin, sin. The Love of God constrains me. I love because I was first loved. Not because I'm afraid not to. I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live yet not I but Christ that lives within me and the life that I now live I live by the Son of God who loved me and gave His life for me.

Wayne JacobsenUh... the judgment to come and through Jesus we can escape it... that is the good news. If there is no judgment then we don't need saved Mike. There is nothing to be saved from.

mikebr
Jul 25th 2008, 01:34 AM
I think that Christianity has two emphases. One is a social emphasis to impart the values of the kingdom of God in society - to relieve the sufferings of the poor, to stand up for the oppressed, to be a voice for those who have no voice. The other emphasis is to bring people into a personal, transforming relationship with Christ, where they feel the joy and the love of God in their lives."


Tony Campolo..................?

Athanasius
Jul 25th 2008, 01:36 AM
Uhm... Jesus wasn't an egalitarian.

mikebr
Jul 25th 2008, 12:28 PM
"The greatest single cause of atheism in the
world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus
with their lips then walk out the door and deny
Him by their lifestyles. That is what
an unbelieving world simply
finds unbelievable."

Brennan Manning

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 12:35 PM
"The greatest single cause of atheism in the
world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus
with their lips then walk out the door and deny
Him by their lifestyles. That is what
an unbelieving world simply
finds unbelievable."

Brennan Manning

I have no problem with that Mike and finally you have a quote worth quoting. ;) But then lifestyles is what we are talking about. A "Christian homosexual" would be exactly one of those lifestyle problems. ;)

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 12:48 PM
You never did answer these questions Peter...


What he is asking is if YOU were driving down the road and looked up to see an 18 wheeler 5 feet away, headed straight for you and you said "OH POOPY!" (insert vulgar word for poopy) and then died while that word was still leaving your lips, would you go to heaven?

-OR-

If YOU fell into temptation and slept with a woman out of wedlock, died of a heart attack while in the act, would you go to heaven?

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 12:54 PM
You never did answer these questions Peter...
Poopy or even the word you want to "insert" but don't dare... that ain't sending someone to hell. Folks decided it was a "curse" word but it isn't. It is just another word for poop. Goodness... folks think I am the legalist on this site! :lol:

The second example... yeah... you are likely going to spend an eternity in hell. These examples only tempt God. It really is foolishness and you guys can spin this stuff however you want to spin it but you are in fact saying that SIN IS OKAY. Goodness... here is the example you should give. DO NOT DO THAT! IT IS SIN! Make no mistake about it... it is sin and NO adulterer will inherit the kingdom of God. You answer this and this ain't tempting God... Does the Bible in fact say that no adulterer will inherit the kingdom of God? If that is true and someone is boinking the neighbor's wife and dies... what did they die as? If they die as an adulterer then please show me that one passage that says they will still inherit the kingdom?

RabbiKnife
Jul 25th 2008, 12:58 PM
Do you believe in a limited atonement?

RabbiKnife
Jul 25th 2008, 12:59 PM
What is the purpose of people going to hell?

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 01:01 PM
Do you believe in a limited atonement?
What does that even mean? Folks toss that out and honestly... what does it even mean?

Do I believe Christ died so that you could continue living in sin because ultimately that is what you want. Answer... no. He did not and to say otherwise is not in accord with Scripture... right?

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 01:01 PM
What is the purpose of people going to hell?
Punishment for their sin/unbelief. Simple really.

RabbiKnife
Jul 25th 2008, 01:03 PM
What does that even mean? Folks toss that out and honestly... what does it even mean?

Do I believe Christ died so that you could continue living in sin because ultimately that is what you want. Answer... no. He did not and to say otherwise is not in accord with Scripture... right?

Do you believe that Christ paid the price for all sins, universally, or do you believe that unconfessed sin still requires a payment?

I don't believe that Christ died so that a person can continue to live in sin, either.

Don't think anyone posting on here would think such a thing.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 01:17 PM
Do you believe that Christ paid the price for all sins, universally, or do you believe that unconfessed sin still requires a payment?

I don't believe that Christ died so that a person can continue to live in sin, either.

Don't think anyone posting on here would think such a thing.
You say you don't but then you go on about unconfessed sin and folks dying and living in sin etc. So while you say you don't say that... sure you do. It is all through this whole thread. If not then it would be very simple really... stop sinning. You don't say that though. ;)

As to your "future" sins being forgiven automatically and not counted against you... show me ANY such Scripture?

Let me show you one though.

2 Peter 1:1 *Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2 *Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 *seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 *For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 *Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge;
6 *and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness;
7 *and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8 *For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 *For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 *Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 *for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

What sins have you been purified from?

RabbiKnife
Jul 25th 2008, 01:18 PM
Punishment for their sin/unbelief. Simple really.

I completely disagree.

People go to hell because God loves them, refuses to override their free will, and permits them to spend eternity separated from Him, as is their choice.

A human cannot pay the price of sin against an infinitely holy God. The penalty of sin for all time for all persons, including the sin of Satan, was paid by Christ in one infinite moment on the Cross.

All other issues are fellowship issues.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 01:24 PM
I completely disagree.

People go to hell because God loves them, refuses to override their free will, and permits them to spend eternity separated from Him, as is their choice.

A human cannot pay the price of sin against an infinitely holy God. The penalty of sin for all time for all persons, including the sin of Satan, was paid by Christ in one infinite moment on the Cross.

All other issues are fellowship issues.
Uh... alrighty. You are wrong but then hey... not even going to try and convince you otherwise because that whole sin of satan being paid for stuff... unreal! That's where FREE WILL goes WAY beyond any sane boundaries. Even the blood of Christ cannot atone for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It is unforgivable. No matter how pure, holy, righteous and good the blood of Christ is. :rolleyes:

RabbiKnife
Jul 25th 2008, 01:29 PM
Forgiveness has nothing to do with the price being paid.

Forgiveness is about restoration of fellowship, not about penalty.

So you believe in a limited atonement? OK. I don't.

Just trying to figure out how you approach this issue.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 01:52 PM
Forgiveness has nothing to do with the price being paid.

Forgiveness is about restoration of fellowship, not about penalty.

So you believe in a limited atonement? OK. I don't.

Just trying to figure out how you approach this issue.
But then let's all notice that you haven't yet defined what you mean by "limited atonement". Do you believe Christ's atonement was enough to even forgive blasphemy of the Spirit?

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 01:59 PM
So one sin (in this case adultery) will send you to hell... Hmmmm.

I get save d by grace through faith, I stay saved by not sinning.

That my friend is not the gospel. That is me having to add something to His finnished work at Calvary for my salvation. Salvation is not of me otherwise it cannot be a gift it is earned wages...

If when we sin (fall into adultery in this case), we loose our salvation, where is our advocate???

RabbiKnife
Jul 25th 2008, 02:03 PM
But then let's all notice that you haven't yet defined what you mean by "limited atonement". Do you believe Christ's atonement was enough to even forgive blasphemy of the Spirit?

You are comparing apples and Studebakers.


Forgiveness has nothing to do with the payment for sin. That is atonement.

Forgiveness is only possible because of atonement, but is not automatically the result of it.

From your previous statement, you believe that some sins still must be paid for or punished. That is a position that is consistent with a belief that the atonement of Christ did not pay for all sin, but only for selected sins. That is limited atonement.

Christ's atonement paid the penalty for all sins, including blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but because of the nature of that blasphemy, the person committing it will never be forgiven because they will never understand the error.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:06 PM
So one sin (in this case adultery) will send you to hell... Hmmmm.

I get save d by grace through faith, I stay saved by not sinning.

That my friend is not the gospel. That is me having to add something to His finnished work at Calvary for my salvation. Salvation is not of me otherwise it cannot be a gift it is earned wages...

If when we sin (fall into adultery in this case), we loose our salvation, where is our advocate???
Okay... notice though... you did not show that passage of Scripture that says one who is an adulterer can inherit the kingdom of God.

Here... let's do this.

1 Corinthians 6:9 *Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 *nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 *And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.


Galatians 5:19 *Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 *idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 *envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


So... we have Scripture that makes it clear that they won't. You have NO Scripture that says they will. And yet I am unscriptural? I am not presenting the gospel.

In reality... what you are saying is CONTRARY to that very gospel. ;)

1 Timothy 1:8 *But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 *realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 *and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11 *according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

So please explain how it is that you are not contrary to the gospel when you say an immoral person can in fact inherit the kingdom of God?

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:06 PM
So one sin (in this case adultery) will send you to hell... Hmmmm.

I get save d by grace through faith, I stay saved by not sinning.

That my friend is not the gospel. That is me having to add something to His finnished work at Calvary for my salvation. Salvation is not of me otherwise it cannot be a gift it is earned wages...

If when we sin (fall into adultery in this case), we loose our salvation, where is our advocate???
Okay... notice though... you did not show that passage of Scripture that says one who is an adulterer can inherit the kingdom of God.

Here... let's do this.

1 Corinthians 6:9 *Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 *nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 *And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.


Galatians 5:19 *Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 *idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 *envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


So... we have Scripture that makes it clear that they won't. You have NO Scripture that says they will. And yet I am unscriptural? I am not presenting the gospel.

In reality... what you are saying is CONTRARY to that very gospel. ;)

1 Timothy 1:8 *But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 *realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 *and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11 *according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

So please explain how it is that you are not contrary to the gospel when you say an immoral person can in fact inherit the kingdom of God?

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:10 PM
You are comparing apples and Studebakers.


Forgiveness has nothing to do with the payment for sin. That is atonement.

Forgiveness is only possible because of atonement, but is not automatically the result of it.

From your previous statement, you believe that some sins still must be paid for or punished. That is a position that is consistent with a belief that the atonement of Christ did not pay for all sin, but only for selected sins. That is limited atonement.

Christ's atonement paid the penalty for all sins, including blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but because of the nature of that blasphemy, the person committing it will never be forgiven because they will never understand the error.
Uh... here's a news flash for you. If it is unforgivable... then that is what it is and no... Jesus' blood did not atone for that sin. It couldn't because it was unforgivable. If his atonement could make it forgivable then that's what would have happened. Yet even Jesus said that's it... you do that then it is done.. that whole in this age and age to come thing. Did He not?

And for folks reading along... do please notice how it is that I am tossing out Scripture after Scripture and no one responds to it. This is important to see and understand.

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:11 PM
The doctrine states that Jesus Christ's substitutionary atonement on the cross is limited in scope to those who are predestined unto salvation and its primary benefits are not given to all of humanity but rather just believers.

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:15 PM
1 Corinthians 6:9 *Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?


Question for you... What makes you righteous???

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:16 PM
So please explain how it is that you are not contrary to the gospel when you say an immoral person can in fact inherit the kingdom of God?

What is it then that keeps your sins from sending you to hell???

RabbiKnife
Jul 25th 2008, 02:16 PM
If you believe that forgiveness = atonement, then you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the work of Christ on the Cross.

We might as well be speaking in two different languages.

Atonement is necessary for forgiveness, but it is not the same as forgiveness. All sins for which atonement is made are not forgiven.
Forgiveness is about reconcilliation. Atonement, again, is necessary for reconcilliation, but not automatically result in reconcilliation.

You are "tossing out Scripture" but applying a meaning to it that is non-sensical...that is why non-one is responding to it.

Christ was absolutely correct....blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but the penalty for the sin has absolutely already been paid.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:17 PM
The doctrine states that Jesus Christ's substitutionary atonement on the cross is limited in scope to those who are predestined unto salvation and its primary benefits are not given to all of humanity but rather just believers.
Uh... again Hoss... did His atonement even cover blasphemy of the Spirit which is unforgivable in both this age and the one to come? Simple really... NO. It did not. It is unforgivable. Therefore it is limited... right?

RabbiKnife
Jul 25th 2008, 02:19 PM
When the atonement of Christ is vicariously applied to my unrighteousness, I am declared righteous by God. When I sin, as a Christian, my fellowship with God is inhibited and impaired, but I am not cast out of my adopted sonship. I must repent and be forgiven to restore my fellowship, but I am still covered in the righteousness of Christ.

Otherwise, I must be reborn over and over and over again, and the writer of Hebrews clearly teaches that he who has been saved and returns to an unsaved position (apostasy) cannot be resaved.

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:19 PM
Okay... notice though... you did not show that passage of Scripture that says one who is an adulterer can inherit the kingdom of God.



Prooftext all you want, but it is abundantly obvious that you have very little understanding of and type of systematic theology. You gotta look at the big picture.

RabbiKnife
Jul 25th 2008, 02:21 PM
Uh... again Hoss... did His atonement even cover blasphemy of the Spirit which is unforgivable in both this age and the one to come? Simple really... NO. It did not. It is unforgivable. Therefore it is limited... right?

No.

As long as you confuse atonement with forgiveness, we will not come to any understanding.


Forgiveness does not mean atoned for.

The atonement is unlimited. God's holiness is forever satisfied by the death of His Son on the Cross.

Now and for all eternity

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:23 PM
Uh... again Hoss... did His atonement even cover blasphemy of the Spirit which is unforgivable in both this age and the one to come? Simple really... NO. It did not. It is unforgivable. Therefore it is limited... right?

hysterically enough, you just sided with the OSAS crowd. You are preaching Calvinist doctrine there...:D:rofl::lol::o

Let's look at the other side...

(from wiki)

Limited atonement is contrasted with the view popularly termed universal or unlimited atonement, which is advocated by Arminian, Methodist, Lutheran, Messianic Jewish, and Roman Catholic theologians (among others) and which says Christ's work makes redemption possible for all but certain for none.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:25 PM
Question for you... What makes you righteous???Christ who empowers you in this time to live a life that conforms to godliness. Again... 2 Peter is a great passage to understand.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge;
6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness;
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Do these things and you won't stumble. It is the way to make your call and election sure. Do you disagree?

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:26 PM
What is it then that keeps your sins from sending you to hell???Not supposed to be sinning... right? So stop sinning and all of that becomes a non-issue. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:28 PM
If you believe that forgiveness = atonement, then you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the work of Christ on the Cross.

We might as well be speaking in two different languages.

Atonement is necessary for forgiveness, but it is not the same as forgiveness. All sins for which atonement is made are not forgiven.
Forgiveness is about reconcilliation. Atonement, again, is necessary for reconcilliation, but not automatically result in reconcilliation.

You are "tossing out Scripture" but applying a meaning to it that is non-sensical...that is why non-one is responding to it.

Christ was absolutely correct....blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but the penalty for the sin has absolutely already been paid.
Uh... we certainly are speaking two different languages because if it was "paid for" then it is paid for and it no longer is unforgivable.

As to my non- nonsensical Scripture... there ya go. Again... you don't respond to it and I assure you that it is sensible.

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:31 PM
Not supposed to be sinning... right? So stop sinning and all of that becomes a non-issue.


Yeah right. Like you don't sin... your poop probably don't stink either. For the rest of us that do sin and really need a Savior and an advocate, I am really happy he is there.





live a life that conforms to godliness


Any attempt you make at living good enough for God is like used feminine hygene products to God, look it up, it's really in there.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:35 PM
When the atonement of Christ is vicariously applied to my unrighteousness, I am declared righteous by God. When I sin, as a Christian, my fellowship with God is inhibited and impaired, but I am not cast out of my adopted sonship. I must repent and be forgiven to restore my fellowship, but I am still covered in the righteousness of Christ.

Otherwise, I must be reborn over and over and over again, and the writer of Hebrews clearly teaches that he who has been saved and returns to an unsaved position (apostasy) cannot be resaved.You use words like "I must" but then you totally wipe that out with "but." It can't be both.

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:36 PM
Not supposed to be sinning... right? So stop sinning and all of that becomes a non-issue. ;)

Here is a scripture for you hero....

Luke 18:11-14 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:37 PM
Otherwise, I must be reborn over and over and over again, and the writer of Hebrews clearly teaches that he who has been saved and returns to an unsaved position (apostasy) cannot be resaved.Uh... if you think one who is saved and can return to an "unsaved" position... what in the world are you arguing with me about?

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:38 PM
Prooftext all you want, but it is abundantly obvious that you have very little understanding of and type of systematic theology. You gotta look at the big picture.I see.. got you now. The old "big picture" argument! So far... you are just providing words and not addressing Scripture so the "big picture" is the best you can do? :rofl: Alrighty then!

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:40 PM
No.

As long as you confuse atonement with forgiveness, we will not come to any understanding.


Forgiveness does not mean atoned for.

The atonement is unlimited. God's holiness is forever satisfied by the death of His Son on the Cross.

Now and for all eternityYet not the sin that is unforgivable. Again... unforgivable in any age is what? Is it not unforgivable? Clue... even if a person repents of an unforgivable sin... it is unforgivable. Atonement or not... correct?

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:41 PM
hysterically enough, you just sided with the OSAS crowd. You are preaching Calvinist doctrine there...:D:rofl::lol::o

Let's look at the other side...

(from wiki)

Limited atonement is contrasted with the view popularly termed universal or unlimited atonement, which is advocated by Arminian, Methodist, Lutheran, Messianic Jewish, and Roman Catholic theologians (among others) and which says Christ's work makes redemption possible for all but certain for none.Uh... hate to bust that old bubble of yours... but that is not what Calvinist believe. :rolleyes:

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:44 PM
Yeah right. Like you don't sin... your poop probably don't stink either. For the rest of us that do sin and really need a Savior and an advocate, I am really happy he is there.Sure... that is what I said and I am quite sure you didn't just make that up or even worse... So please... show me that post where I said and or implied any such? You can't... but hey... truth doesn't much matter now... does it? ;)



Any attempt you make at living good enough for God is like used feminine hygene products to God, look it up, it's really in there.So then we should make no attempt because what the heck... to God it is just a tampon? Yeah... you use that wrongly too. Most do.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:46 PM
Here is a scripture for you hero....

Luke 18:11-14 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
So... do you think Jesus is saying here that we must always be a sinner in order to be justified? That's your logic. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:50 PM
A remarkable thing happening here folks. Watch it and learn something. Here we have a thread where folks KICK AND SCREAM to justify what? Sin. Simply put this is what it is. Folks justifying their own need to continue in sin. Contrary to the gospel of God and that is exactly what sin is. Yet 2000 years later and Bibles in all of our hands... this is the theology that so many flock to! Reason... we love that sin we live in and we'd rather think we can live in it than put that mess down. Cut it up... slice it and dice it... spin it how you want. This is nothing more than folks justifying sin and a sinful lifestyle.

Here is what Scripture actually says and oh yeah... this just bugs fool out of folks!

1 Corinthians 15:34 *Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

Years have past... and that shame still exist.

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:00 PM
Since you just freely admitted that you sin (only on occasion) PLEASE tell us what it is that keeps YOUR sins from sending you to hell... You keep avoiding the question.

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:06 PM
Uh... hate to bust that old bubble of yours... but that is not what Calvinist believe. :rolleyes:

Uh... Hmmmmmm... If you believe in Limited Atonement, that is EXACTLY what the Calvinists believe. You buy into the arminian view of the possiblility of apostacy (So do Rabbi Knife and myself), but yet you deny universal atonement (not to be confused with universalism). You really need to have a working knowledge of systematic theology before you go gettin' all dogmatic about stuff...

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:11 PM
Since you just freely admitted that you sin (only on occasion) PLEASE tell us what it is that keeps YOUR sins from sending you to hell... You keep avoiding the question.Repentance from those sins... in other words stop doing them and turn to God. Now... do you figure I should not worry about that sin and keep on sinning and not sweat the "little stuff" such as homosexuality (again, the topic of the thread)?

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:13 PM
Uh... Hmmmmmm... If you believe in Limited Atonement, that is EXACTLY what the Calvinists believe. You buy into the arminian view of the possiblility of apostacy (So do Rabbi Knife and myself), but yet you deny universal atonement (not to be confused with universalism). You really need to have a working knowledge of systematic theology before you go gettin' all dogmatic about stuff...
I do not at all believe in limited atonement. Are you even reading anything I say? Not even unlimited atonement folk believe that the devils sins have been atoned for or the unpardonable sin which is well... unforgivable. You are taking a "religious speak" phrase to the twilight zone and in fact give the Calvinist folk reason to freak like they do. ;)

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:21 PM
Theology School 101

Calvinism's Views (wiki)
Moreover, since in this scheme God knows precisely who the elect are and since only the elect will be saved, there is no requirement that Christ atone for sins in general, only for those of the elect. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power (in other words, God could have elected everyone and used it to atone for them all), but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is designed for some and not all.

Arminianist's Views
Atonement is intended for all: Jesus' death was for all people, Jesus draws all people to himself, and all people have opportunity for salvation through faith.

Your view falls under Calvinism... like it or not.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:25 PM
I see. Again... I hate to be the one to break your heart here. But even the unlimited atonement guys know that the unforgivable sin is just what it is... UNFORGIVABLE. ;) And I have a doctorate and have taught in Theology School 101.

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:31 PM
Repentance from those sins... in other words stop doing them and turn to God.

Wow! I was unaware that we had to earn our salvation. I can see now that your salvation is dependant upon what you do (or not do) and NOT on what Christ has already done.



Now... do you figure I should not worry about that sin and keep on sinning and not sweat the "little stuff" such as homosexuality (again, the topic of the thread)?

No. Not at all. You will hear more hard hitting, toe steppin', "in your face about sin" messages in my church than you will in most I have been in, and I was raised neo-pentecostal. But my abilities to be good enough for God have nothing to do with my salvation. If I could be good enough for God, I wouldn't need Jesus.

I am talking about occasionally falling into the temptation of homosexual encouters, not a practicing lifestyle characterized by homosexuality, but we have already defined that haven't we? But now that we have...

Do you ever commit the same sin more than once??? If so then you have not truly repented and you are bound for hell right???

How is the sins that you (occasionally) commit ANY different that the Christian who only OCCASIONALLY commits a homosexual act???

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:32 PM
I see. Again... I hate to be the one to break your heart here. But even the unlimited atonement guys know that the unforgivable sin is just what it is... UNFORGIVABLE. ;) And I have a doctorate and have taught in Theology School 101.

Where on earth did you get a doctorate and not know what Limited Atonement means?!?!?!?:o

Much less the inability to understand the difference in atonement and forgiveness...

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:37 PM
Where on earth did you get a doctorate and not know what Limited Atonement means?!?!?!?:o

Much less the inability to understand the difference in atonement and forgiveness...
At Billy Bob's School of Theology. :rolleyes:

Answer a simple question for me. Why do you so dogmatically defend sin? That is what you are doing.

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:44 PM
I'll help you out here...

Here is a good definition of both.

atonement [ Middle English atonen (to be reconciled; to restore oneness or unity) < at (at) + one (one) ] Amends made for a wrong, sin, or crime. Reconciliation between parties who are seriously at odds, especially between created beings and the Deity.

Forgiveness to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit.

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:45 PM
At Billy Bob's School of Theology. :rolleyes:

Answer a simple question for me. Why do you so dogmatically defend sin? That is what you are doing.

I am not defending sin. I am defending the fact that my salvation has nothing to do with how good I can be. It has everything to do with how good God is.

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:48 PM
Now notice this folks, he avoids the questions that are going to put him on the same level of the occasional sinning brother that happens to partake in the occasional sin of homosexuality. For those keeping up, the reference to Luke 18:11-14 should start to become ever more clear now...

Answer the three simple questions.

Do you ever commit the same sin more than once??? If so then you have not truly repented and you are bound for hell right???

How is the sins that you (occasionally) commit ANY different that the Christian who only OCCASIONALLY commits a homosexual act???

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:53 PM
I'll help you out here...

Here is a good definition of both.

atonement [ Middle English atonen (to be reconciled; to restore oneness or unity) < at (at) + one (one) ] Amends made for a wrong, sin, or crime. Reconciliation between parties who are seriously at odds, especially between created beings and the Deity.

Forgiveness to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit.


Thank you. Why I do so appreciate it. I'd of never known otherwise!!!! :rolleyes:

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:53 PM
I am not defending sin. I am defending the fact that my salvation has nothing to do with how good I can be. It has everything to do with how good God is.Sure you are defending sin. Anyone with eyes to read can clearly read it.

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:56 PM
At Billy Bob's School of Theology. :rolleyes:

To quote the Apostle Paul... "and I partly believe it."


Answer a simple question for me. Why do you so dogmatically defend sin? That is what you are doing.

I am explicitly stating that when you think you have to add to what Jesus Christ did at Calvary, you are saying "Thanks, Jesus for dying for me I accept your free gift, but it was not enough..."

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:57 PM
Now notice this folks, he avoids the questions that are going to put him on the same level of the occasional sinning brother that happens to partake in the occasional sin of homosexuality. For those keeping up, the reference to Luke 18:11-14 should start to become ever more clear now...{/quote]Avoiding questions? Oh yeah... folks are going to notice that!!! :lol:

Occasional sin of homosexuality? Are you serious?

[quote]

Answer the three simple questions.

Do you ever commit the same sin more than once??? If so then you have not truly repented and you are bound for hell right???

How is the sins that you (occasionally) commit ANY different that the Christian who only OCCASIONALLY commits a homosexual act???Are you even reading the thread? We aren't talking about the person that "occasionally hoses up". The OP wasn't about that. My goodness if folks would at least read! It is talking about folks LIVING THAT LIFESTYLE! Those weren't "occasional" sinners.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:59 PM
To quote the Apostle Paul... "and I partly believe it."



I am explicitly stating that when you think you have to add to what Jesus Christ did at Calvary, you are saying "Thanks, Jesus for dying for me I accept your free gift, but it was not enough..."
It isn't enough if you trample the grace of God underfoot. ;)

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 04:04 PM
Define grace.

And PLEASE for the love of all that is Holy apply context. He is referring to the apostate, not the one who sins... A proper treatment of the text bears this out. And you wonder why we think you are prooftexting...

Heb 10:29-39 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet, a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

awestruckchild
Jul 25th 2008, 04:07 PM
Lets see who hated Jesus' message?

Was it the woman caught in adultery?
Was it the woman at the well?
Was it the maniac living in the grave yard?
How bout the Roman soldier at the foot of the cross?
Was there anyone called a sinner that wanted Jesus crucified?


Man I just don't see anyone who hated the message except the Law Keepers. The ones that said you had to keep the rules to have fellowship with God. The Pharisees. Yeah, they hated the message and they hated the Man. They hated those greasy grace folks. They hated Paul too. They called him a people pleaser. They said that he was telling folks that they could sin all they wanted because he said that where sin abounds, grace does much more abound; because He said that God was in Christ on the cross reconciling sinners to Himself.

Am only up to page 7 in this thread but had to stop and say to you, Mikebr, this post was wonderful and the Holy Spirit spoke so strongly in me when I began to read it because you could add my name to that list you began the post with and you are my true brother and you have been so blessed to see so clearly and to know that you are not righteous but the one who saved you is righteous, thereby causing God to declare you righteous. I am rejoicing to see that the Holy Spirit teaches us so well if we will only accept what He says!!
I will look forward to reading more of your posts, brother!

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 04:08 PM
My bad. I thought I said this on this thread.



*** FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT***
Let's define "struggling" as an ever present temptation that a believer only occasionally imbibes in.


Hard for me to keep up. Same rhetoric, same prooftexts, different threads.

John146
Jul 25th 2008, 04:08 PM
I completely disagree.

People go to hell because God loves them, refuses to override their free will, and permits them to spend eternity separated from Him, as is their choice.

A human cannot pay the price of sin against an infinitely holy God. The penalty of sin for all time for all persons, including the sin of Satan, was paid by Christ in one infinite moment on the Cross.

All other issues are fellowship issues.What? Are you trying to say that people being sent to hell or the lake of fire is not punishment?

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matthew 25:41,46

Why are they punished? For refusing to repent and for refusing to believe the gospel and surrender their lives to Christ.

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 04:10 PM
In case you forgot...

Answer the three simple questions.

Do you ever commit the same sin more than once??? If so then you have not truly repented and you are bound for hell right???

How is the sins that you (occasionally) commit ANY different that the Christian who only OCCASIONALLY commits a homosexual act???

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 04:11 PM
Why are they punished? For refusing to repent and for refusing to believe the gospel and surrender their lives to Christ.


The sin of unbelief, not because of anything else...

John146
Jul 25th 2008, 04:27 PM
The sin of unbelief, not because of anything else...Unbelief in what? And isn't repentance necessary for salvation?

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 05:36 PM
Joh 16:7-9 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Not of sin, because they are adulterers, muderers, fornicators, or anything else.., The Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin because they believe not on Him...

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 05:51 PM
My bad. I thought I said this on this thread.



Hard for me to keep up. Same rhetoric, same prooftexts, different threads.r
Scripture is rhetoric to you? Yeah then... we speak different languages. And sure as God made little green apples... you ain't responding to Scripture yet. Call it a pattern.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 05:51 PM
Am only up to page 7 in this thread but had to stop and say to you, Mikebr, this post was wonderful and the Holy Spirit spoke so strongly in me when I began to read it because you could add my name to that list you began the post with and you are my true brother and you have been so blessed to see so clearly and to know that you are not righteous but the one who saved you is righteous, thereby causing God to declare you righteous. I am rejoicing to see that the Holy Spirit teaches us so well if we will only accept what He says!!
I will look forward to reading more of your posts, brother!So... you don't have to be righteous?

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 05:51 PM
Since you CONTINUE to ignore it...

Answer the three simple questions.

Do you ever commit the same sin more than once??? If so then you have not truly repented and you are bound for hell right???

How is the sins that you (occasionally) commit ANY different that the Christian who only OCCASIONALLY commits a homosexual act???

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 05:52 PM
Define grace.

And PLEASE for the love of all that is Holy apply context. He is referring to the apostate, not the one who sins... A proper treatment of the text bears this out. And you wonder why we think you are prooftexting...

Heb 10:29-39 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet, a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if anyman draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Did this person at one time truly believe?

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 05:55 PM
Did this person at one time truly believe?

Obviously so...

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

But it isn't a sin issue. It is an unbelief issue. IF we are saved by faith, then it only stands to reason that we can only lose our salvation by not having faith.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 05:57 PM
Since you CONTINUE to ignore it...

Answer the three simple questions.

Do you ever commit the same sin more than once??? If so then you have not truly repented and you are bound for hell right???

How is the sins that you (occasionally) commit ANY different that the Christian who only OCCASIONALLY commits a homosexual act???Let's say I did... what does it matter what I do? Scripture is what it is is it not? So what? I am a hypocrite and I am a drunkard, adulterer, liar and a thief. I preach different than that and blah blah blah. According to Scripture... SO WHAT? Don't make a lick of difference what I do or don't do. What does Scripture say? I need answer nothing because what I do or don't do means nothing. What DOES Scripture say?

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 05:57 PM
So... you don't have to be righteous?

If you think you can be righteous enough for God by your actions or inactions, then you have been sadly misled...

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 05:59 PM
Since you CONTINUE to ignore it...

Answer the three simple questions.

Do you ever commit the same sin more than once??? If so then you have not truly repented and you are bound for hell right???

How is the sins that you (occasionally) commit ANY different that the Christian who only OCCASIONALLY commits a homosexual act???Tell you what... you pick the answer. Yes or No. What difference does it make what I do or don't do? What does that prove? What does SCRIPTURE say?

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 05:59 PM
Let's say I did... what does it matter what I do? Scripture is what it is is it not? So what? I am a hypocrite and I am a drunkard, adulterer, liar and a thief. I preach different than that and blah blah blah. According to Scripture... SO WHAT? Don't make a lick of difference what I do or don't do. What does Scripture say? I need answer nothing because what I do or don't do means nothing. What DOES Scripture say?

Because your answers will either defeat your attempt at theology or it will expose just how badly you have been mislead. Don't worry, I will get to the scriptures.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 06:01 PM
Obviously so...

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

But it isn't a sin issue. It is an unbelief issue. IF we are saved by faith, then it only stands to reason that we can only lose our salvation by not having faith.
You are only saved now by faith. That doesn't mean you are "saved" in actuality. If it was actuality then there is no need FOR FAITH. Tis a mystery that even professing Christian folk seem to not understand. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 06:03 PM
If you think you can be righteous enough for God by your actions or inactions, then you have been sadly misled...
Do you have to be righteous? Still didn't answer there Hoss.

Let me help you out with some of that there thing we call the Bible!

1 John 2:29 *If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1 John 3:1 *See how great a love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2 *Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is.
3 *And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4 *Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 *And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 *No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 *Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 *the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 *No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 *By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 06:04 PM
Because your answers will either defeat your attempt at theology or it will expose just how badly you have been mislead. Don't worry, I will get to the scriptures.
Get to it then Hoss... I have put up many and so far all you have to offer is well... nothing much other than religious speak! ;)

awestruckchild
Jul 25th 2008, 06:05 PM
A remarkable thing happening here folks. Watch it and learn something. Here we have a thread where folks KICK AND SCREAM to justify what? Sin. Simply put this is what it is. Folks justifying their own need to continue in sin. Contrary to the gospel of God and that is exactly what sin is. Yet 2000 years later and Bibles in all of our hands... this is the theology that so many flock to! Reason... we love that sin we live in and we'd rather think we can live in it than put that mess down. Cut it up... slice it and dice it... spin it how you want. This is nothing more than folks justifying sin and a sinful lifestyle.

Here is what Scripture actually says and oh yeah... this just bugs fool out of folks!

1 Corinthians 15:34 *Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

Years have past... and that shame still exist.

We do not become completely sinless beings here on earth. I think what these other posters are getting at is that they know who and what they are and they don't dare forget it or they fear they will begin to think that their righteousness comes from how they act instead of how Christ acted and acts and will thereby begin to judge others and become very puffed up and arrogant in their own abilities or their own strength to not sin.

I don't believe they are justifying sin but that they know they are still sinners and have truly understood that, according to God, they murder everytime they have anger at another. They have done the right thing by running to Jesus and admitting that they are helpless over sin and they now look to and expect HIM to work and clean the inside of their cup instead of worrying whether the outside looks clean to others. To them, the outside doesn't matter because they are so horrified at the filth on the inside.

I realize that a lot of discussions in this forum seem to pit a person or persons taught by scripture against a person or persons taught scripture by the Holy Spirit. The ones taught by the Holy Spirit can't help but bring Him into the discussion. They can no longer view scripture in solely a humanly logical way. Then again, those taught by scripture have no choice but to use it and see it in this way.

Guess I am just trying to say, I see these other posters are not trying to justify or cling to sin but just honest and truthful in their apprisals of themselves.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 06:07 PM
We do not become completely sinless beings here on earth. I think what these other posters are getting at is that they know who and what they are and they don't dare forget it or they fear they will begin to think that their righteousness comes from how they act instead of how Christ acted and acts and will thereby begin to judge others and become very puffed up and arrogant in their own abilities or their own strength to not sin.

I don't believe they are justifying sin but that they know they are still sinners and have truly understood that, according to God, they murder everytime they have anger at another. They have done the right thing by running to Jesus and admitting that they are helpless over sin and they now look to and expect HIM to work and clean the inside of their cup instead of worrying whether the outside looks clean to others. To them, the outside doesn't matter because they are so horrified at the filth on the inside.

I realize that a lot of discussions in this forum seem to pit a person or persons taught by scripture against a person or persons taught scripture by the Holy Spirit. The ones taught by the Holy Spirit can't help but bring Him into the discussion. They can no longer view scripture in solely a humanly logical way. Then again, those taught by scripture have no choice but to use it and see it in this way.

Guess I am just trying to say, I see these other posters are not trying to justify or cling to sin but just honest and truthful in their apprisals of themselves.
So then sinner... or saint?

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 06:17 PM
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

awestruckchild
Jul 25th 2008, 06:19 PM
So... you don't have to be righteous?

I can never be righteous. I see how ugly my heart is. He shows me all of the time. No, as I am, in this human body, I can not ever be righteous. But Christ is righteous and He is in me and I am in Him and this is a great relief. I can't explain how I get to have HIS righteousness, I just know that since I have Him, all things that are His are mine.
Sorry, PP - I know that will sound non-sensical to you but it is the best I can do.:P

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 06:21 PM
but just honest and truthful in their apprisals of themselves.


Kinda refreshing isn't it???:D

mikebr
Jul 25th 2008, 07:17 PM
My question would be what would be a definition of righteousness apart from Christ. One could keep the Law near perfectly, does that in itself make someone righteous. How would I tell the difference between PP type of good behavior and that of a good moral Mormon, good Muslim, good Buddhist? The answer is in Galations 2:20. The life that I life in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God. It has very little to do with my ability or even my desires. Christ in me is the hope of Glory.

awestruckchild
Jul 25th 2008, 08:31 PM
My question would be what would be a definition of righteousness apart from Christ. One could keep the Law near perfectly, does that in itself make someone righteous. How would I tell the difference between PP type of good behavior and that of a good moral Mormon, good Muslim, good Buddhist? The answer is in Galations 2:20. The life that I life in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God. It has very little to do with my ability or even my desires. Christ in me is the hope of Glory.

There is this sort of like.......key.It unlocks just about everything!
And until you see that key, you are just stuck in front of the door.

I don't know what exactly makes the key visible to anyone else, but for me it was the vss. where Jesus spoke about what truly constitutes murder. Don't ask me how I read those vss. so many times and didn't see, all I know is that in a flash, just a split second, He made me see! Just cured me instantly!

I read it, then I stopped and said-Wait a minute! The world says I am not a murderer but Jesus says I am!
If this is true, then I murdered at least four times that I know about today - first I woke up and got so dang angry at my husband for not taking the trash to the curb before he left, then I murdered the bankteller, then I murdered the idiot who cut me off in traffic, then I came home and murdered my dog for cryin out loud!

And not only that, but being able to see this now doesn't change anything because I can't stop it no matter how hard I try! I mean, it's not like I sit down and debate whether or not to get angry with someone - it just comes in a flash, instantly. And even if I catch myself five seconds into it, what does it matter if the murder has already occurred?

So the key I grasped was that the way we see the commands is completely superficial and outer compared to the way God sees them. We've been blind to the truth of them inwardly, spiritually, ever since the garden where that part of us died.

But when I realized this, I saw how insane it was to fret about what the world calls sin or about cigarettes or tv shows or what I or anyone else might be doing wrong when I was a murderer who couldn't stop murdering for even a day!

I don't know how it worked that this suddenly lifted a ton of weight off of me but man, did it ever!

I just keeled over at His feet and said-I can't even keep the one about not murdering and there are nine others and now I get the sneaky suspicion I'm not really seeing them truthfully either!!!!

I suddenly saw why Jesus died. I suddenly saw why we each needed the Holy Spirit personally.

It was just a key and I just steadily move ahead since then. The key is seeing what we truly are!!

mikebr
Jul 25th 2008, 09:13 PM
Yeah Jesus seemed to make it progressively harder to keep the Law until he came to the RYR and told him he had to sell everything he had and give it to the poor. I think He made it so hard on the Sermon on the Mount that folks walked away in the same manner.

merjorg
Jul 25th 2008, 09:37 PM
I'd really like to see these questions get answered...


In case you forgot...

Answer the three simple questions.

Do you ever commit the same sin more than once??? If so then you have not truly repented and you are bound for hell right???

How is the sins that you (occasionally) commit ANY different that the Christian who only OCCASIONALLY commits a homosexual act???

But, since it doesn't look like they will, I'll give it my best shot...

1) Do you ever commit the same sin more than once???
Yes.

2) If so then you have not truly repented and you are bound for hell right???
Yikes!

3) How is the sins that you (occasionally) commit ANY different that the Christian who only OCCASIONALLY commits a homosexual act?
They aren't.

mikebr
Jul 26th 2008, 04:22 AM
Originally Posted by Urban Missionary http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1723372#post1723372)

In case you forgot...

Answer the three simple questions.

Do you ever commit the same sin more than once??? If so then you have not truly repented and you are bound for hell right???

How is the sins that you (occasionally) commit ANY different that the Christian who only OCCASIONALLY commits a homosexual act???


Brilliant! Great Questions. Have you been hanging around Jesus?:pp

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 11:55 AM
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


Notice what happens when you put them in proper order though. ;)

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Why did John write what he wrote?

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 11:58 AM
We do not become completely sinless beings here on earth. I think what these other posters are getting at is that they know who and what they are and they don't dare forget it or they fear they will begin to think that their righteousness comes from how they act instead of how Christ acted and acts and will thereby begin to judge others and become very puffed up and arrogant in their own abilities or their own strength to not sin.

I don't believe they are justifying sin but that they know they are still sinners and have truly understood that, according to God, they murder everytime they have anger at another. They have done the right thing by running to Jesus and admitting that they are helpless over sin and they now look to and expect HIM to work and clean the inside of their cup instead of worrying whether the outside looks clean to others. To them, the outside doesn't matter because they are so horrified at the filth on the inside.

I realize that a lot of discussions in this forum seem to pit a person or persons taught by scripture against a person or persons taught scripture by the Holy Spirit. The ones taught by the Holy Spirit can't help but bring Him into the discussion. They can no longer view scripture in solely a humanly logical way. Then again, those taught by scripture have no choice but to use it and see it in this way.

Guess I am just trying to say, I see these other posters are not trying to justify or cling to sin but just honest and truthful in their apprisals of themselves.I am not speaking of being completely sinless. Didn't mention that. What I am saying is that when I hear folks (especially supposed long time Christian folk) speaking of sinning every day etc... how does that work in the mind? How is that not practicing sin the very thing we aren;'t supposed to be doing? If their appraisal of themselves is that they are practicing sinners then that appraisal don't need to stop there. What does John say about those that practice sin?

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 12:02 PM
I can never be righteous. I see how ugly my heart is. He shows me all of the time. No, as I am, in this human body, I can not ever be righteous. But Christ is righteous and He is in me and I am in Him and this is a great relief. I can't explain how I get to have HIS righteousness, I just know that since I have Him, all things that are His are mine.
Sorry, PP - I know that will sound non-sensical to you but it is the best I can do.:PSure you can be righteous. What you've done is buy into some of todays very popular religious speak doctrine. ;)

John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Can you not practice righteousness as opposed to sin?

awestruckchild
Jul 26th 2008, 12:37 PM
I am not speaking of being completely sinless. Didn't mention that. What I am saying is that when I hear folks (especially supposed long time Christian folk) speaking of sinning every day etc... how does that work in the mind? How is that not practicing sin the very thing we aren;'t supposed to be doing? If their appraisal of themselves is that they are practicing sinners then that appraisal don't need to stop there. What does John say about those that practice sin?


The key is in knowing what we are and in coming to see we can do nothing to stop it but that the Holy Spirit must do His strange work. The key is in following where He leads rather than solely what scripture seems to mean to you. Because being taught by scripture will give you only the very shallowest and worldly understanding. But following the Holy Spirit will guide you into the real truth of that scripture.

When we think we are accomplishing some part of being good or not sinning, the result is arrogance and judgmentalism.
When we know there isn't any good thing in us but that HE somehow is doing a wonderful work even though we don't quite know how, the result is compassion.

When He shows a person what they truly are, in truth and in spirit, they are able to say: I get it! I must follow You, not the rules, or I will be doomed, because the way I see those "rules" is wrong. Only You can show me how to see them!

That is why you will find people who follow Him being compassionate instead of daring to judge the sin of anyone else. We have our hands full just between Him and us - forget pronouncing judgement on anyone else.

awestruckchild
Jul 26th 2008, 12:45 PM
Sure you can be righteous. What you've done is buy into some of todays very popular religious speak doctrine. ;)

John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Can you not practice righteousness as opposed to sin?

No, I tell you, I can not be righteous by my actions. I know myself and I tell you, I will always choose the wrong.The only reason I can be called righteous is because He is in me.

The same way I don't want to sin but I sometimes do anyway because sin is in me - I am righteous because He is in me. I do not cause the righteousness by what I do - He causes the righteousness by what He does.

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 01:29 PM
The key is in knowing what we are and in coming to see we can do nothing to stop it but that the Holy Spirit must do His strange work. The key is in following where He leads rather than solely what scripture seems to mean to you. Because being taught by scripture will give you only the very shallowest and worldly understanding. But following the Holy Spirit will guide you into the real truth of that scripture.

When we think we are accomplishing some part of being good or not sinning, the result is arrogance and judgmentalism.
When we know there isn't any good thing in us but that HE somehow is doing a wonderful work even though we don't quite know how, the result is compassion.

When He shows a person what they truly are, in truth and in spirit, they are able to say: I get it! I must follow You, not the rules, or I will be doomed, because the way I see those "rules" is wrong. Only You can show me how to see them!

That is why you will find people who follow Him being compassionate instead of daring to judge the sin of anyone else. We have our hands full just between Him and us - forget pronouncing judgement on anyone else.When Jesus uses the analogy of the log in the old eyeball... who did Jesus say is the one to remove that log?

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 01:31 PM
No, I tell you, I can not be righteous by my actions. I know myself and I tell you, I will always choose the wrong.The only reason I can be called righteous is because He is in me.

The same way I don't want to sin but I sometimes do anyway because sin is in me - I am righteous because He is in me. I do not cause the righteousness by what I do - He causes the righteousness by what He does.
Okay... this is Bible Chat and we really love discussing Bible in here. ;) Here is some Bible and not just opinion.

John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Now... what does it say about the one that practices righteousness?

If you practice righteousness... who is the one practicing righteousness?

awestruckchild
Jul 26th 2008, 01:34 PM
The one who has first had the log removed from their own eye.

And now I am just giggling so hard even though I know this is serious.
I just cannot get myself under control.
I am chiding myself that I can laugh at a time like this!
Need to go get myself under control. Will be back later.
It was nice talking with you this morning Peter.:kiss:

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 02:32 PM
The one who has first had the log removed from their own eye.

And now I am just giggling so hard even though I know this is serious.
I just cannot get myself under control.
I am chiding myself that I can laugh at a time like this!
Need to go get myself under control. Will be back later.
It was nice talking with you this morning Peter.:kiss:
Um... no. That's really not what it said at all.

Jesus simply tells them... remove the log from your own eye. Jesus didn't say that the Lord was going to do it. Didn't even imply that at all. Jesus didn't tell the lady or the man that the Lord was going to stop them from sinning. He told them simple... sin no more. You cannot take away human doing. Scripture doesn't tell us that Jesus is going to make us endure to the end. He empowers us with what we need to do that yes... it is up to us to utilize what He has empowered us with. Call it human effort or whatever tag a person wants to use. But we cannot get away from the fact that we have to put forth that effort.

And nice talking to you as well!

awestruckchild
Jul 26th 2008, 03:26 PM
The entire teaching must be looked at or we will miss the point everytime. When the entire teaching is not looked at, we are more apt to only apply it to others and not to ourselves. Sometimes an outline or a paraphrase in my mind helps me.

Title of Sermon: Beware of judging others.

Reason to beware of this: Because God will judge you in the exact same way you judge others.

Application: I am guilty of sexual sin, even if no where else than in my mind. If I deem myself worthy to judge anyone else for their sexual sin, if I deem myself righteous enough, despite my own sexual sin, to cast a stone, I may not, when I meet my Maker face-to-face, use the excuse that I was not warned of this.

Illustration used to make His point clearer: Why worry about the speck in someone elses eye when you have a log in your own? How can you even think of saying to your freind: Let me help you remove that speck when your own log is blinding you? Hypocrite!!

Intent of sermon:To point out hypocrisy.

My paraphrase, culling and pulling together what He has shown me:
You will have to answer for leading another into a ditch . You would not be guilty if you were blind but because you say, I can see, your guilt remains.

He was not so much giving us a command....he was giving us a warning against hypocrisy.

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 03:53 PM
The entire teaching must be looked at or we will miss the point everytime. When the entire teaching is not looked at, we are more apt to only apply it to others and not to ourselves. Sometimes an outline or a paraphrase in my mind helps me.

Title of Sermon: Beware of judging others.

Reason to beware of this: Because God will judge you in the exact same way you judge others.

Application: I am guilty of sexual sin, even if no where else than in my mind. If I deem myself worthy to judge anyone else for their sexual sin, if I deem myself righteous enough, despite my own sexual sin, to cast a stone, I may not, when I meet my Maker face-to-face, use the excuse that I was not warned of this.

Illustration used to make His point clearer: Why worry about the speck in someone elses eye when you have a log in your own? How can you even think of saying to your freind: Let me help you remove that speck when your own log is blinding you? Hypocrite!!

Intent of sermon:To point out hypocrisy.

My paraphrase, culling and pulling together what He has shown me:
You will have to answer for leading another into a ditch . You would not be guilty if you were blind but because you say, I can see, your guilt remains.

He was not so much giving us a command....he was giving us a warning against hypocrisy.Understand what the warning was. Okay... now you are warned about hypocrisy. How do you no longer be a hypocrite (also in the teaching)? Take the log out of your own eye. You do it... take it out. THEN YOU CAN.... why? Because now you aren't doing so hypocritically.

awestruckchild
Jul 26th 2008, 04:00 PM
Definition of "the log": The thought that we have no sin and are therefore capable or righteous enough to remove a speck from someone elses eye.
The log is the belief that we do not murder despite the fact that He told us we do.You cannot remove what is in you and a part of you. Only He can do that. And He cannot do it until you admit that you are helpless to!

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 05:14 PM
Definition of "the log": The thought that we have no sin and are therefore capable or righteous enough to remove a speck from someone elses eye.
The log is the belief that we do not murder despite the fact that He told us we do.You cannot remove what is in you and a part of you. Only He can do that. And He cannot do it until you admit that you are helpless to!
Again... does that passage actually say any of that?

Matthew 7:1 *"Do not judge lest you be judged.
2 *"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3 *"And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4 *"Or how can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,´ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5 *"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Notice... doesn't say that I will take it out. Tells you to take it out. God doesn't make you sin therefore it is you that must remove that sin. God doesn't stop you from sinning. You have to stop sinning. Do you need a couple of A WHOLE LOT of passages that tell you that very thing?

awestruckchild
Jul 26th 2008, 05:25 PM
Again... does that passage actually say any of that?

Matthew 7:1 *"Do not judge lest you be judged.
2 *"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3 *"And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4 *"Or how can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,´ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5 *"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Notice... doesn't say that I will take it out. Tells you to take it out. God doesn't make you sin therefore it is you that must remove that sin. God doesn't stop you from sinning. You have to stop sinning. Do you need a couple of A WHOLE LOT of passages that tell you that very thing?

Please, Peter, look at what you are saying!

"God doesn't make you sin therefore it is you that must remove that sin."

....................

???????????????

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

This is not true, Peter!
Look, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!

Yes, God does not make us sin, this is true. But we are incapable of removing our own sin and this is the reason for Jesus dying and for the Holy Spirit coming inside of us to make us see!

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 05:43 PM
Please, Peter, look at what you are saying!

"God doesn't make you sin therefore it is you that must remove that sin."

....................

???????????????

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

This is not true, Peter!
Look, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!

Yes, God does not make us sin, this is true. But we are incapable of removing our own sin and this is the reason for Jesus dying and for the Holy Spirit coming inside of us to make us see!
I looked when I typed it out. ;)

Apparently you need some of those VERY MANY passages!

Let's go with this since it is where I happen to be reading now and it works just fine.

Ephesians 4:22 *that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
23 *and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 *and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
25 *¶Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH, EACH ONE OF YOU, WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another.
26 *BE ANGRY, AND YET DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger,
27 *and do not give the devil an opportunity.
28 *Let him who steals steal no longer; but rather let him labor, performing with his own hands what is good, in order that he may have something to share with him who has need.
29 *Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, that it may give grace to those who hear.
30 *And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 *Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
32 *And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.


Now.. to whom is Paul saying... do these things?

Why is Paul telling us to do these things?

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 05:45 PM
Jesus taking away the sin of the world by the way... that doesn't mean at all or even closely to what you are trying to force into that simple phrase. If you take that to where you are going then it failed because sin is sure enough here in this world and even the body of Christ. ;)

awestruckchild
Jul 26th 2008, 06:02 PM
I looked when I typed it out. ;)

Apparently you need some of those VERY MANY passages!

Let's go with this since it is where I happen to be reading now and it works just fine.

Ephesians 4:22 *that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
23 *and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 *and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
25 *¶Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH, EACH ONE OF YOU, WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another.
26 *BE ANGRY, AND YET DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger,
27 *and do not give the devil an opportunity.
28 *Let him who steals steal no longer; but rather let him labor, performing with his own hands what is good, in order that he may have something to share with him who has need.
29 *Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, that it may give grace to those who hear.
30 *And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 *Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
32 *And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.


Now.. to whom is Paul saying... do these things?

Why is Paul telling us to do these things?

I believe Paul was addressing people that he personally knew had received the Holy Spirit but that he saw were quenching that Spirit. In one of the vss. somewhere directly before the vss. you quoted, he was pleading with them to let(permit) the Spirit to renew their thoughts and attitudes.

awestruckchild
Jul 26th 2008, 06:04 PM
Jesus taking away the sin of the world by the way... that doesn't mean at all or even closely to what you are trying to force into that simple phrase. If you take that to where you are going then it failed because sin is sure enough here in this world and even the body of Christ. ;)

What is it that you think I am trying to force into that "simple phrase?"

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 06:12 PM
I believe Paul was addressing people that he personally knew had received the Holy Spirit but that he saw were quenching that Spirit. In one of the vss. somewhere directly before the vss. you quoted, he was pleading with them to let(permit) the Spirit to renew their thoughts and attitudes. Sure and notice the word... THEREFORE. Now that your thoughts and attitudes have been renewed... DO THIS and don't DO THAT. It isn't that the Spirit is doing it for you... Paul told them to do it or don't do it. Humans actually doing sure enough... right?

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 06:15 PM
What is it that you think I am trying to force into that "simple phrase?"
Thought I made it obvious in my comment. Jesus came to take away the sins of the world... and you are trying to have that say that Jesus takes our sin away therefore we don't have to or even can't. That understanding would be totally contrary to Scripture which tells us to put away anger, malice, etc.... and as I stated... if Jesus took them (in that regard) then we'd not have to put them away... they've been took. ;)

awestruckchild
Jul 26th 2008, 06:19 PM
If you have the Spirit and if you do not quench the Spirit, it is the Spirit in you doing it because you are dead to self and alive to the Spirit and it is not you but the Spirit in you that now lives.

If you have not the Spirit, you have no choice but to attempt to do the Spirits work on your own.

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 06:31 PM
If you have the Spirit and if you do not quench the Spirit, it is the Spirit in you doing it because you are dead to self and alive to the Spirit and it is not you but the Spirit in you that now lives.

If you have not the Spirit, you have no choice but to attempt to do the Spirits work on your own.
Why didn't Paul tell us then in that passage? Take the thief for example. If you steal... let the Spirit work through you? Nah. Not what Paul said. If you steal... stop stealing. Not grieving the Spirit of God is certainly something we ought not do but then if we have the Spirit of God in us and it is the Spirit of God that does all through us... how could we ever grieve the Spirit without the Spirit grieving Himself? See where all the cool sounding religious speak take us? :lol:

Simple really. If you steal. Stop stealing. If you lie... stop lying. If you cheat... quit it. If you are immoral... stop it. Every one of those things it is you doing because you are living according to the flesh and not the Spirit. It is you living according to the flesh. In other words... you have to put those deeds of the flesh away.

Galatians 5:14 *For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
15 *But if you bite and devour one another, take care lest you be consumed by one another.
16 *¶But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 *For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 *But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 *Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 *idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 *envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 *But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 *gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 *Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 *¶If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
26 *Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

We walk by the Spirit or the flesh.

And then look on next chapter to bring it back to the matter we are speaking of on the log and speck.

Galatians 6:1 *Brethren, even if a man is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted.

Who is the "spiritual" Paul is speaking of? The log free folk. ;) Then to boot... watch out your ownself so that you too aren't tempted and caught up in a mess. Why would they need to watch out if they didn't need to really watch out?

awestruckchild
Jul 26th 2008, 06:31 PM
Thought I made it obvious in my comment. Jesus came to take away the sins of the world... and you are trying to have that say that Jesus takes our sin away therefore we don't have to or even can't. That understanding would be totally contrary to Scripture which tells us to put away anger, malice, etc.... and as I stated... if Jesus took them (in that regard) then we'd not have to put them away... they've been took. ;)

I have tried to think of a way to respond to this and I cannot come up with one.
I see the scriptures in a different way than before I received Him. They are....divided now. On the left side, there is the literal, worldly, logical, and with reason way.

On the right side of the division is the way the Holy Spirit teaches them to me. This way is usually completely opposite of the way the world says things are. This is the way I never could have ever seen them on my own or by someone elses attempting to teach them to me.

I am on some different....plane than you. I do not see Pauls words ever as a way to argue against the gospel but instead as a way to supplement my understanding of the gospels. So it is best maybe that I just leave that one alone for now. Maybe some way to explain will come to me later.

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 06:38 PM
I see. The old "different plane" thingy. :lol: Okay I suppose.