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mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:48 PM
Not wanting to get into which is correct or why, we believe what we believe, but can both Non-OSAS and OSAS folks be saved?

It seems to me that they are diametrically opposed and that one or the other is 100% wrong. I mean it can't be both ways. Someone on the board has suggested that it is neither but if its one or the other it has to be one or the other.

RabbiKnife
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:49 PM
Our salvation is not based on our precise understanding or misunderstanding of doctrine.

Our salvation is based on grace through faith.

AngelAuthor
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:52 PM
Agreed with RabbiKnife. I don't see what one's personal view on OSAS has to do with whether or not you can get saved.

BCF
Jul 23rd 2008, 04:59 PM
Agreed with RabbiKnife. I don't see what one's personal view on OSAS has to do with whether or not you can get saved.

I would think that it would have a lot to do with it. Simply because one would be a form of false teaching, which could lead to a path of destruction. While the other would lead them to a closer walk with Our Lord.

Just my humble opinion though........

Brother Mark
Jul 23rd 2008, 05:01 PM
Not wanting to get into which is correct or why, we believe what we believe, but can both Non-OSAS and OSAS folks be saved?

It seems to me that they are diametrically opposed and that one or the other is 100% wrong. I mean it can't be both ways. Someone on the board has suggested that it is neither but if its one or the other it has to be one or the other.

Both believe the means to salvation is identical so yes, both can be saved. Both camps agree 100% that salvation comes by grace and through faith in Christ Jesus.

HisLeast
Jul 23rd 2008, 05:09 PM
It seems to me that they are diametrically opposed and that one or the other is 100% wrong. I mean it can't be both ways. Someone on the board has suggested that it is neither but if its one or the other it has to be one or the other.

It certainly seems that way doesn't it? I might be tarred and feathered on this... but my opinion is, this isn't a boolean situation. There is the OSAS position, the NOSAS position, and reality. In reality we don't precisely know the mechanics of salvation. We do know that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and we know that we must stay away from sin. That is sufficient enough for us to gain salvation... but the OSAS /NOSAS debates are never about GAINING salvation.

I find it interesting that both sides describe practically the exact same mechanic, only differently. Both also predicate their positions on the idea we can know someone else's eternal state after death. So SubjectA proclaims Christ, but lives like anything but, and goes to hell. NOSASers are satisfied that SubjectA proves you can lose salvation. OSASers are satisfied that SubjectA was never saved to begin with. Its a shell game with no ball, because we can't observe the unobservable.

I'll go to my grave with my hands happily washed of the whole debate.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 05:30 PM
Both believe the means to salvation is identical so yes, both can be saved. Both camps agree 100% that salvation comes by grace and through faith in Christ Jesus.
Paul seemed to be saying that if someone taught that salvation was not sustained the way it began then they were false teachers.

humbled
Jul 23rd 2008, 06:38 PM
Paul seemed to be saying that if someone taught that salvation was not sustained the way it began then they were false teachers.
I believe Peter agreed .. to some extent .. with this statement. 2 Peter 2 for reference. He says "to whichever thing you are overcome (in the context of false doctrine) to that you are enslaved". Can one be a bondservant of Christ while being enslaved to a false doctrine? Not saying which doctrine is correct in this statement, but could that be what that means?

Seems to me, after reviewing that chapter, that God uses false doctrine to sift out the chaff. But Peter is basically speaking about the doctrine of salvation. The doctrine of Jesus Christ. So one must ask ... is eternal security a doctrine of Jesus Christ .. or is self perseverence a part of that doctrine ... "work out your own salvation - for it is God who is at work in you ..."

Which passage from Paul are you referring to, Mike?

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 06:46 PM
I believe Peter agreed .. to some extent .. with this statement. 2 Peter 2 for reference. He says "to whichever thing you are overcome (in the context of false doctrine) to that you are enslaved". Can one be a bondservant of Christ while being enslaved to a false doctrine? Not saying which doctrine is correct in this statement, but could that be what that means?

Seems to me, after reviewing that chapter, that God uses false doctrine to sift out the chaff. But Peter is basically speaking about the doctrine of salvation. The doctrine of Jesus Christ. So one must ask ... is eternal security a doctrine of Jesus Christ .. or is self perseverence a part of that doctrine ... "work out your own salvation - for it is God who is at work in you ..."

Which passage from Paul are you referring to, Mike?

1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Brother Mark
Jul 23rd 2008, 06:49 PM
Paul seemed to be saying that if someone taught that salvation was not sustained the way it began then they were false teachers.

I think he was teaching about maturity moreso than sustaining salvation. One matures and grows the same way one is saved. If we believe otherwise, we fall from grace. At least that's what I get out of Paul's writings.

Firefighter
Jul 23rd 2008, 06:50 PM
Who here fully understands the mechanisms of salvation? Who here can tell me why Jesus Christ loved a rotten, stinkin, sorry no good for nothing, potty mouthed, drug and alcohol addicted, homeless, womanizing, dog like me?

None of us if we are honest.

His Grace, our faith... not theology. The Pharisees made that mistake.

For the record, I am not against theological pursuits, as I am working on my Masters in Theology.

grptinHisHand
Jul 23rd 2008, 06:59 PM
It is about time someone bring this up this way! :idea:

Salvation is by grace through faith, a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. :pp

We can't save ourselves. We can't keep ourselves saved.
We can't be perfect on this side of heaven. But as saved individuals we will WANT to please our Savior. We won't 'walk' in habitual sin!! Our walk will be 'IN CHRIST'.

If it were possible to become lost again with a sin: gossip, disobedience to parents, etc. - then what if a person doesn't come to confession before he/she is killed, say a car accident on the way home?

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Me." :pp

The doctrine is that Jesus Christ, God's Son, One with God, is the only way to salvation. Repent, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. Then we will have the Holy Spirit living in us to 'keep' us.

I John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.

In Christ. g :hug:

BCF
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:05 PM
Who here fully understands the mechanisms of salvation? Who here can tell me why Jesus Christ loved a rotten, stinkin, sorry no good for nothing, potty mouthed, drug and alcohol addicted, homeless, womanizing, dog like me?

None of us if we are honest.

His Grace, our faith... not theology. The Pharisees made that mistake.

For the record, I am not against theological pursuits, as I am working on my Masters in Theology.

Your right, it was the Grace of Jesus that made Him Love all of us no good sinners. But it was not the Grace of Jesus that gave us our Faith. Our Faith comes from what we Believe in our Heart. And what we Believe in our Heart is what we Walk in our Christian Life each and everyday, which should be the Love of Christ. Better known as our Love Walk. And it is that Love Walk which gives us our Salvation.

Do a deep study in the book of Jude and you will find that out.

Firefighter
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:08 PM
Then we are saved by faith but we stay saved by a "good walk"???:o

Firefighter
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:10 PM
But it was not the Grace of Jesus that gave us our Faith. Our Faith comes from what we Believe in our Heart.

Maybe you oughta try reading Romans...

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

grptinHisHand
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:18 PM
Then we are saved by faith but we stay saved by a "good walk"???:o

NOT!

from the book of Jude:

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ,

Okay, I have had my say. I will be quiet now. I think. :spin:
g

BCF
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:20 PM
Maybe you oughta try reading Romans...

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


I've read Romans many times and studied it just as many times for all kinds of reasons. Buit my friend, it does not matter how much Faith you have in God or our Lord Jesus. If our Love Walk is not what Jesus Commanded in John13:34-35, you my friend and I or anyone else is nothing in the eyes of our Lord.

If you don't believe me read 1st Cor 13. The greatest Gift that we have is our Love Walk. It is Greater then Faith and Hope combined.

RabbiKnife
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:21 PM
I don't understand what you mean by "Love Walk."

CoffeeCat
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:31 PM
As Christians, we come up with all kinds of definitions and divisions, maybe because humans by nature like to categorize things, and set themselves and one another apart as unique or different. We end up with constructions like denomination, OSAS/NOSAS, YEC/OEC, Calvinism/Arminianism.... the list goes on and on. We put ourselves and one another into little boxes as a way to wrap our human brains, ironically enough, around the ideas coming from our God, who refuses to fit into ANY of the little boxes we construct. And thank Heaven that our God refuses to be broken down and given the conditions we give ourselves and each other -- He's too big for that, too holy, too full of grace... and when it comes down to it, our definitions and debates and pidgeonholes and boxes and categories and descriptions do often hold us back from this reality: Christ saves, and when He calls us to Him, He alone has the power to give us new life and help us live it with Him, and continue to live it. We can't take that power away from Him.

I am SO thankful that, though I am guilty of thinking in the box and pidgeonholing myself and others, my God is too big, too holy, to allow me to do it to Him. He defies definition. His gift of salvation is nothing I earned, and it's nothing I can toss away. There's a hymn I love.... "Where can I run from Your love? If I climb to the Heavens You are there... if I fly to the sunrise, or sail beyond the sea, still I'd find You there... Yahweh I know You are near... standing always at my side... You guard me from the foe, and You lead me in ways everlasting...."

If I ran from God and denied my salvation and told myself my faith was lost, as I've done before to my own discredit rather than to God's, I'd expect the exact same thing to happen as has happened before: whoever is God's, God will catch the attention of, pursue, knock on their heart, drag back and lead them home simply because they're God's.

So... the question... "Can both be saved?" - YES. When we're the Lord's, He isn't letting go, even when we run from Him, turn from Him, ignore Him, lose our way. The moment we remove the blinders.... He's there. Waiting for us again.

Thank You, Father, for that.

BCF
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:33 PM
I don't understand what you mean by "Love Walk."

By the way that you treat others.

Jesus tells us in John 13:34-35 to Love one another as He has Loved us. This Jesus tells us is a New commandment that he gives us to do.

The Love Walk that I am refering to is just that. Love everybody just as Jesus would Love them, no matter what they have done. Hope that helps...

grptinHisHand
Jul 23rd 2008, 07:39 PM
Coffeecat wrote: If I ran from God and denied my salvation and told myself my faith was lost, as I've done before to my own discredit rather than to God's, I'd expect the exact same thing to happen as has happened before: whoever is God's, God will catch the attention of, pursue, knock on their heart, drag back and lead them home simply because they're God's.

So... the question... "Can both be saved?" - YES. When we're the Lord's, He isn't letting go, even when we run from Him, turn from Him, ignore Him, lose our way. The moment we remove the blinders.... He's there. Waiting for us again.

Thank You, Father, for that.

AMEN. Well, I didn't exactly promise I'd be quiet, did I? ;)
g

BCF
Jul 23rd 2008, 09:50 PM
NOT!

from the book of Jude:

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ,

Okay, I have had my say. I will be quiet now. I think. :spin:
g

Forgive my ignorance, but I do not understand where you are going with this statement.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 09:57 PM
Your right, it was the Grace of Jesus that made Him Love all of us no good sinners. But it was not the Grace of Jesus that gave us our Faith. Our Faith comes from what we Believe in our Heart. And what we Believe in our Heart is what we Walk in our Christian Life each and everyday, which should be the Love of Christ. Better known as our Love Walk. And it is that Love Walk which gives us our Salvation.

Do a deep study in the book of Jude and you will find that out.


He is the author and finisher of our faith. and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God...............

His faith, not yours.

BCF
Jul 23rd 2008, 10:02 PM
He is the author and finisher of our faith. and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God...............

His faith, not yours.


How do you have Faith without belief?

Friend of I AM
Jul 23rd 2008, 10:09 PM
NOT!

from the book of Jude:

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ,

Okay, I have had my say. I will be quiet now. I think. :spin:
g

I think the Apostle Paul put it best with these statements ;) :bounce::D

For we do not live to ourselves alone and we do not die to ourselves alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat your brother or sister with contempt? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' " So then, we will all give an account of ourselves to God.

In Christ,

Stephen

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 10:14 PM
How do you have Faith without belief?

Did you make a conscious decision to believe everything that you believe?

and is faith belief or trust?

Friend of I AM
Jul 23rd 2008, 10:14 PM
Not wanting to get into which is correct or why, we believe what we believe, but can both Non-OSAS and OSAS folks be saved?

It seems to me that they are diametrically opposed and that one or the other is 100% wrong. I mean it can't be both ways. Someone on the board has suggested that it is neither but if its one or the other it has to be one or the other.

I am of a firm belief that God doesn't use the doctrines of men to determine who is saved, and that God is a savior of all men. Salvation is dependant upon God and his mercy. If it weren't for God demonstrating his mercy upon mankind with Christ Jesus, no one would be saved - despite how well they knew the Word of God, or how accurate they perceived their doctrine to be in the view of God.

In Christ,

Stephen

Joey Porter
Jul 23rd 2008, 10:40 PM
Not wanting to get into which is correct or why, we believe what we believe, but can both Non-OSAS and OSAS folks be saved?

It seems to me that they are diametrically opposed and that one or the other is 100% wrong. I mean it can't be both ways. Someone on the board has suggested that it is neither but if its one or the other it has to be one or the other.

Ha ha. That was me who suggesed that.

And yes, I will reiterate what I said before. At least one of the two groups is anathema, and destined for eternal punishment (according to the finality preached in the theology of both camps).

They are two different gospels. At least one of the two groups believes and preaches the wrong one.

BCF
Jul 23rd 2008, 10:46 PM
Did you make a conscious decision to believe everything that you believe?

Yes, I did.


and is faith belief or trust?

My Faith is what I Believe. I have Trust in my Faith that everything in which I Believe is True. Everything in which I Believe comes out of the Scripture, which in turn is written by the Spirit of God. That being said, I can make a conscious decision to Believe that through my Faith I can Trust God that everything in Scripture is True and not void.

manichunter
Jul 24th 2008, 05:17 AM
Not wanting to get into which is correct or why, we believe what we believe, but can both Non-OSAS and OSAS folks be saved?

It seems to me that they are diametrically opposed and that one or the other is 100% wrong. I mean it can't be both ways. Someone on the board has suggested that it is neither but if its one or the other it has to be one or the other.


What is Non-OSAS and OSAS folks? I do not know these terms.

BCF
Jul 24th 2008, 06:24 AM
What is Non-OSAS and OSAS folks? I do not know these terms.

Non-OSAS means- Not Once Saved Always Saved

OSAS means- Once Saved Always Saved

My heart's Desire
Jul 24th 2008, 06:28 AM
Not wanting to get into which is correct or why, we believe what we believe, but can both Non-OSAS and OSAS folks be saved?

It seems to me that they are diametrically opposed and that one or the other is 100% wrong. I mean it can't be both ways. Someone on the board has suggested that it is neither but if its one or the other it has to be one or the other.
Good question but one that is too scary for me to try to answer. I'll just put it this way, there is only one way to heaven and if one doesn't believe it the right way then someone is NOT going there!

JesusMySavior
Jul 24th 2008, 06:41 AM
If thou shall believe in thine heart and confess with thy mouth that Jesus is Lord, thou shalt be saved - Romans 10:9


Yep.


Plus doctrine has nothing to do with it.

Honestly I can't figure out how a Christian can ever have the peace of God without knowing OSAS...I used to believe in OSNAS and I was one of the most miserable Christians ever because I was constantly striving for works and found out now that kind of legalism is like trying to make yourself God.

if you're toying with God then you need to see if you're really saved... but even in my backsliding, when God pulled me out He let me know I was still saved but I could have gone down a really bad path and renounced the Gospel completely... :(

If one STOPS believing and confessing, not sure if they are saved or not... otherwise, sin will never seperate us from God once we have Jesus...just read Romans 8:38-40

JesusMySavior
Jul 24th 2008, 06:49 AM
I don't understand what you mean by "Love Walk."

This actually broke my heart. :cry:

JesusMySavior
Jul 24th 2008, 06:53 AM
Ha ha. That was me who suggesed that.

And yes, I will reiterate what I said before. At least one of the two groups is anathema, and destined for eternal punishment (according to the finality preached in the theology of both camps).

They are two different gospels. At least one of the two groups believes and preaches the wrong one.


wow, condemnation

mikebr
Jul 24th 2008, 12:36 PM
I'm amazed that some of the staunch supporters of either side have not commented on this.:hmm:

Firefighter
Jul 24th 2008, 12:56 PM
Buit my friend, it does not matter how much Faith you have in God or our Lord Jesus. If our Love Walk is not what Jesus Commanded in John13:34-35, you my friend and I or anyone else is nothing in the eyes of our Lord.


Do you not see that you are saying that we have to earn our way into heaven???

I agree that love is important, but it is a fruit of the Spirit (quite possibly THE fruit) and is not something YOU do...

To be filled with the Spirit is to be filled with love, you just simply can't help it.

Where on earth did you get "Love Walk" from???

mikebr
Jul 24th 2008, 01:11 PM
One of the greatest revelations to me was when I realized that the Love in 1Cor13 and the Fruit in Galatians was literally who God is. He is Love, we're told that specifically in First John. But He's also kind and patient and joyous. He is Peace. Read 1Cor13 and put God everywhere it says love. It just may change the way you see Him.

RabbiKnife
Jul 24th 2008, 01:24 PM
Poppycock and balderdash.

God is not narrowly defined by looking at only one of His attributes.

I still don't know what a "love walk" is.

Joey Porter
Jul 24th 2008, 01:25 PM
wow, condemnation

How is this condemnation? I am not saying that either side is condemned. I'm simply saying, when aligning with the one aspect of theology that both sides do agree on, the logical conclusion would be that one of the two groups is preaching a false gospel and is destined for eternal destruction.

RabbiKnife
Jul 24th 2008, 01:27 PM
Then you don't understand either position.

Both teach that salvation is by grace through faith, not of works.

They just have different ideas on exactly how that mechanism works.

Both agree that one is kept by Christ, not by man.

Joey Porter
Jul 24th 2008, 01:31 PM
I just want to add one more thing -

For everyone who is saying that God will look past a lack of belief in the Truth by one of these two groups, and for those are saying it's just a matter of love and our heart and things like that - well, I have to say, I don't think there is anyone posting in this thread who would say that God would look past a lack of belief in the Truth for a person who doesn't believe in Christ.

What I'm saying is, if there was a mormon or muslim or buddhist who has all the love in the world for his fellow man and who seeks to serve God in the way that he understand Him, but doesn't believe in Christ, no one here would say God would look at his heart and look past his lack of belief in the Truth (Christ is the Truth). The mainstream Christian doctrine would teach that this man is hellbound.

So, clearly a belief in the correct doctrine, in the correct Truth, is important in God's eyes.

RabbiKnife
Jul 24th 2008, 01:33 PM
Christ is Truth.

Doctrine is not truth.

Doctrine is our interpretation of how we interpret Truth that we believe we know.

Joey Porter
Jul 24th 2008, 01:37 PM
Christ is Truth.

Doctrine is not truth.

Doctrine is our interpretation of how we interpret Truth that we believe we know.

The correct doctrine is Truth. Anything else is missing the mark, which is sinning.

RabbiKnife
Jul 24th 2008, 01:40 PM
There is a difference between doctrine and truth.

Doctrine is always, even at its best, merely man's attempt to explain Truth.

Firefighter
Jul 24th 2008, 02:05 PM
Joey, I have to ask. Do you have all of the theological feilds of study figured out? Do you know everything about theology? Are you saying that you have it all figured out and are 100% correct in your doctrine???:o

grptinHisHand
Jul 24th 2008, 02:06 PM
BCF, In answer to your post #22, you are not being ignorant.

I wasn't very clear. You quoted me:
Quote:
Originally Posted by grptinHisHand http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1721073#post1721073)
NOT!

from the book of Jude:

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ,

Okay, I have had my say. I will be quiet now. I think. :spin:
g

Then you said:
Forgive my ignorance, but I do not understand where you are going with this statement.

Here is where I meant to go with what I said, "NOT!"

I was responding to the comment Urban Missionary (Post #14): "

Originally Posted by Urban Missionary http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1721057#post1721057)
Then we are saved by faith but we stay saved by a "good walk"???:o


He was responding to your post # 13.


But it was not the Grace of Jesus that gave us our Faith. Our Faith comes from what we Believe in our Heart. And what we Believe in our Heart is what we Walk in our Christian Life each and everyday, which should be the Love of Christ. Better known as our Love Walk. And it is that Love Walk which gives us our Salvation.

Do a deep study in the book of Jude and you will find that out.

It was in Jude that I read it is God who keeps us. And elsewhere the Word says that faith comes from God.

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ,

We are saved by Faith, sanctified AND PRESERVED in Christ Jesus. We are not staying saved by our works or by "a good walk".

This may still not be real clear, but I have been interrupted a few times while trying to compose my answer.
g :hug:

BCF
Jul 24th 2008, 02:43 PM
BCF, In answer to your post #22, you are not being ignorant.

I wasn't very clear. You quoted me:
Quote:
Originally Posted by grptinHisHand http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1721073#post1721073)
NOT!

from the book of Jude:

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ,

Okay, I have had my say. I will be quiet now. I think. :spin:
g

Then you said:

Here is where I meant to go with what I said, "NOT!"

I was responding to the comment Urban Missionary (Post #14): "

He was responding to your post # 13.



It was in Jude that I read it is God who keeps us. And elsewhere the Word says that faith comes from God.

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ,

We are saved by Faith, sanctified AND PRESERVED in Christ Jesus. We are not staying saved by our works or by "a good walk".

This may still not be real clear, but I have been interrupted a few times while trying to compose my answer.
g :hug:

So what you are telling me is that you can do anything that you want to somebody, and it don't matter to God, simply because you are saved. Right.

Brother Mark
Jul 24th 2008, 02:53 PM
So what you are telling me is that you can do anything that you want to somebody, and it don't matter to God, simply because you are saved. Right.

I think that's an unfair accusation for most folks that believe as he does. They will tell you that God will chastise/spank those that are his. And if a man can sin and not be chastised and corrected, then he doesn't belong to God. I know of very few people that say a man can sin and it doesn't matter to God.

grptinHisHand
Jul 24th 2008, 03:00 PM
BCF,


So what you are telling me is that you can do anything that you want to somebody, and it don't matter to God, simply because you are saved. Right.

NO, this is not what I am saying at all. :hmm:

Here is a repeat of what I wrote earlier in this thread. (See post #12 for all of my post.)



Salvation is by grace through faith, a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. http://bibleforums.org/images/smilies/jfj.gif

We can't save ourselves. We can't keep ourselves saved.
We can't be perfect on this side of heaven. But as saved individuals we will WANT to please our Savior. We won't 'walk' in habitual sin!! Our walk will be 'IN CHRIST'.

If it were possible to become lost again with a sin: gossip, disobedience to parents, etc. - then what if a person doesn't come to confession before he/she is killed, say a car accident on the way home?

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Me." http://bibleforums.org/images/smilies/jfj.gif

The doctrine is that Jesus Christ, God's Son, One with God, is the only way to salvation. Repent, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. Then we will have the Holy Spirit living in us to 'keep' us.


I hope that quite clears up where I stand - on the Word of God.
g :hug:

apothanein kerdos
Jul 24th 2008, 03:00 PM
Of course those that deny the perseverance of the Saints will be saved, no matter how wrong they are.

grptinHisHand
Jul 24th 2008, 03:02 PM
Of course those that deny the perseverance of the Saints will be saved, no matter how wrong they are.

I hope you are not serious here?
Did you mean to add - :rolleyes: ?

g

apothanein kerdos
Jul 24th 2008, 03:07 PM
I hope you are not serious here?
Did you mean to add - :rolleyes: ?

g


No, I'm serious in a joking manner. I don't believe someone that teaches we can lose our salvation (at least in a mainstream sense) will go to Hell. I think the person is extremely wrong and needs to do a proper exegesis of the Scriptures, but he's not condemned for it.

I tend to think perseverance of the saints - which teaches we cannot lose our salvation - is the most Biblical viewpoint one can have on if salvation stays with the Christian or not. I don't think the viewpoint makes someone "more saved" or even 'saved,' just correct.

Athanasius
Jul 24th 2008, 03:13 PM
And for the Christian of 30 years who decides to enter into a life of extreme sin, is very chastised by God but does not 'turn back'. What then? He simply 'didn't know God' in the first place?

grptinHisHand
Jul 24th 2008, 03:19 PM
And for the Christian of 30 years who decides to enter into a life of extreme sin, is very chastised by God but does not 'turn back'. What then? He simply 'didn't know God' in the first place?

Maybe, but I turn here to 1 Corinthians 3. I may misunderstand it but I think it answers this question.

In Christ,
g

CoffeeCat
Jul 24th 2008, 03:21 PM
Someone once said "when we get to Heaven, we'll be surprised by at least two things: who will be there, and who won't be there."

Those we assume will be there and those we assume won't be there won't necessarily be the people actually present or absent there. Why? Because God, as I said earlier, won't be placed into the boxes we try to fit Him or His salvation into, and our assumptions about things don't a) make then actually so; or b) change God's mind when He already has it made up.

I know one thing only about getting to Heaven: if I die with Christ as Lord of my life, I can expect to be with Him, because that's what He promised. He promised something else just as wonderful too, though.... to not only take us into His kingdom after, but to be with us now. Everyone posting in this thread, whether you are OSAS or NOSAS, has been blessed with that gift from God -- Christ with us RIGHT NOW, leading us, loving us, teaching us. I see us as being all in the same boat when it comes to "who has it right". Christ is right. His salvation is right, to accept it is right, to live for Him is right..... and if we need any common ground, if any of us are a little edgy here, then we can at least remember that the common ground we have is the biggest unearned gift and grace we'll ever receive, and each of us here has received it.

Athanasius
Jul 24th 2008, 03:22 PM
Maybe, but I turn here to 1 Corinthians 3. I may misunderstand it but I think it answers this question.

In Christ,
g

Are you referring to verses 16-23, more specifically verse 17? I suppose it answer the question in part, but what does that mean?

grptinHisHand
Jul 24th 2008, 03:24 PM
Are you referring to verses 16-23, more specifically verse 17? I suppose it answer the question in part, but what does that mean?

Perhaps, but verses 1-3 as well. Context. As you have said before. :)

I don't know Greek, so I can't really say what exactly is meant here.

g :hmm:

BCF
Jul 24th 2008, 03:27 PM
I think that's an unfair accusation for most folks that believe as he does. They will tell you that God will chastise/spank those that are his. And if a man can sin and not be chastised and corrected, then he doesn't belong to God. I know of very few people that say a man can sin and it doesn't matter to God.

Well I don't know if it is an unfair question Brother Mark. I mean we are talking about Salvation here are we not....

I look at it this way. I have a son who is seven. My Faith is very strong in the Lord and I am trying very hard and as best I can to bring him up in a Godly home. But my son does not live with my wife and I he lives with his mother, who's Faith is like the worlds. If my son decides to follow his mothers way of thinking and tells me that I am crazy like his mother did when he turns (ohhhhh lets say 21) and decides to never come and see me again. Do I stop Loving my son or being a Father to my son? The answer is NO, I don't. Why? Because my Faith and everything that I believe teaches me not to.

Now my son on the other hand, in his mind am I a father to him? The answer is No. Why? Because he left me because he thought I was a nut for what I believe.

Now in that simple illustration I never left my son, but my son left me. This happens right now in this world today all the time. If children or adults can walk away from their parents and never look back, why can't they walk away from God and never look back?

I believe in the book of Jude this is called apostates who are people who know the real plan of Salvation (which would be what the Bible calls lukewarm Christians) although they may or may not have accepted it at one time, but they reject it and think they are being saved some other way. Which in this case and most cases today is by just saying the prayer of Salvation. Which is not true. There is a lot more to the shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ then a Prayer of Salvation.

Apostates are not Backsliders. The two are not the same. Backsliders are people who stopped serving God, who can repent and start serving God again. Unfortunately most think that the two are the same and they are not, and we have more Apostates in the Church then we have Backsliders.

My heart's Desire
Jul 24th 2008, 03:29 PM
One cannot be wishy washy here and the truth I believe is this There is no other Name whereby we must be saved and that is Jesus Christ. One is either saved or they are not and either Jesus did it or He did not. So there is only one way to heaven and no other. That is the truth and I'll stand on it.
Oh, didn't finish. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. And that's the point where I think we start getting stuck. What does it mean to believe. That's where we get confused.

My heart's Desire
Jul 24th 2008, 03:46 PM
Now in that simple illustration I never left my son, but my son left me. This happens right now in this world today all the time. If children or adults can walk away from their parents and never look back, why can't they walk away from God and never look back?

I believe in the book of Jude this is called apostates who are people who know the real plan of Salvation (which would be what the Bible calls lukewarm Christians) although they may or may not have accepted it at one time, but they reject it and think they are being saved some other way. Which in this case and most cases today is by just saying the prayer of Salvation. Which is not true. There is a lot more to the shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ then a Prayer of Salvation.

.
But...an unsaved person does not have God as Father and a saved one does. For the saved one the Father never ceases to be the Father no matter what. IF a saved one walks away from the Father, who becomes faithless, the son or the Father? Would we be bold enough to say that the Father did not stay true to the promise? I venture to say the Father stays true to His promise. Humans make promises and have been known to go back on their promises but God never will.

Brother Mark
Jul 24th 2008, 03:47 PM
Well I don't know if it is an unfair question Brother Mark. I mean we are talking about Salvation here are we not....

Its a straw man BCF. Build that straw man up and then tear him down. Folks that disagree with your doctrine will agree that the straw man is wrong because the straw man doesn't represent their belief system. That's why I said it was an unfair accusation.

Most don't believe, as your accusation stated, that God doesn't care if a saved man sins.

Here's what you said.


So what you are telling me is that you can do anything that you want to somebody, and it don't matter to God, simply because you are saved. Right.

I've met one person in my entire life that believed that. One. Most folks will tell you straight up whether they are OSAS, NOSAS, POTS or some other doctrine that sin does matter to God.

So yea, that is an unfair accusation of the doctrine of OSAS. None of them will tell you it doesn't matter to the Lord. Sin matters to God and he will chastise those that are his.

If you were speaking of apostates or falling away, perhaps then the "question" could have been worded a little differently. Maybe that's what you were getting at.

BCF
Jul 24th 2008, 03:57 PM
Its a straw man BCF. Build that straw man up and then tear him down. Folks that disagree with your doctrine will agree that the straw man is wrong because the straw man doesn't represent their belief system. That's why I said it was an unfair accusation.

Most don't believe, as your accusation stated, that God doesn't care if a saved man sins.

Here's what you said.



I've met one person in my entire life that believed that. One. Most folks will tell you straight up whether they are OSAS, NOSAS, POTS or some other doctrine that sin does matter to God.

So yea, that is an unfair accusation of the doctrine of OSAS. None of them will tell you it doesn't matter to the Lord. Sin matters to God and he will chastise those that are his.

If you were speaking of apostates or falling away, perhaps then the "question" could have been worded a little differently. Maybe that's what you were getting at.


That's :cool: my mistake...... I never said that I was a perfect man.:lol:

Friend of I AM
Jul 24th 2008, 04:16 PM
Ha ha. That was me who suggesed that.

And yes, I will reiterate what I said before. At least one of the two groups is anathema, and destined for eternal punishment (according to the finality preached in the theology of both camps).

They are two different gospels. At least one of the two groups believes and preaches the wrong one.

I don't know about that one Joey. No one has access to the book of life save Christ, so no one save him can really state whose name is written in it. God discerns the hearts of men, and he is the final judge regarding a man's destiny. We need to be real careful in making blind assertions on who will go where. It's very possible that God may indeed have mercy on all of mankind and allow all men to share in his salvation.

In Christ,

Stephen

Friend of I AM
Jul 24th 2008, 04:24 PM
How is this condemnation? I am not saying that either side is condemned. I'm simply saying, when aligning with the one aspect of theology that both sides do agree on, the logical conclusion would be that one of the two groups is preaching a false gospel and is destined for eternal destruction.

You know I didn't catch this one Joey. Should have read all of the posts. Guess you and I are of the same opinion then. Thanks for the post.

Firefighter
Jul 24th 2008, 05:30 PM
OK, then answer this...

Are you 100% correct on all matters doctrinal? Do you have the Bible and ALL doctrinal issues figured out with ZERO room for error???

BCF
Jul 24th 2008, 05:44 PM
But...an unsaved person does not have God as Father and a saved one does. For the saved one the Father never ceases to be the Father no matter what. IF a saved one walks away from the Father, who becomes faithless, the son or the Father? Would we be bold enough to say that the Father did not stay true to the promise? I venture to say the Father stays true to His promise. Humans make promises and have been known to go back on their promises but God never will.

Okay, I don't want to use my son anymore because I don't want him to get caught up in the middle of something that I am praying that he stays far away from. If that makes any sense.

With that being said, let's say that Rabbit had a son who's name was Cat. Cat lived with his Mother the Chicken. The Cat's Father the Rabbit was a Christian Rabbit who Loved the Lord and tried to bring up his son the Cat in a good and Godly home all of the Cat's childhood life. The Mother the Chicken on the other hand did not live in a Godly home and left her son the Rabbit run as he wanted to when he was their.

Well one day when the Cat turned 18 (in human age) the Cat's Mother the Chicken left him go to a party with his friends. One of his friends brought some catnip (drugs) to the party and things really started to pick up. Well it just so happens that the police Mice were following up on a led that they got and they bust the party. During the bust the Cat shot one of the police Mice and killed him. The Cat got hauled off to jail and to trial and ended up with a sentence of life in prison in the kitty pound.

The Cat's Mother the Chicken would come once a week and visit her son, because she had other things to do throughout her week. But the Cat's Father would visit him everyday after work, so that he could show his son the Love of Christ and teach him the Gospel of forgiveness and Gods Grace. This went on for the next five years until one day the son got tired of it and said to his Father.....DAD.....WILL YOU SHUT UP ALREADY WITH THAT JESUS STUFF. JESUS CAN'T DO NOTHING FOR ME NOW THAT I AM IN JAIL. BESIDES, WHERE WAS HE WHEN I NEEDED HIM IF HE NEVER LEAVES ME LIKE YOU KEEP SAYING HE DOES. The Father calmly says, well son all you need to do is repent of your sins and Jesus will forgive you and you will be set free in your heart from that sin. All you did was backslide. You have been saved ever since you were a little boy when you said that sinners prayer. Remember. God never left you. You just slipped a little. The son then says, well then why am I in here for the rest of my life then? Did God want me to spend the rest of my life in a jail cell? Is this why he brought me into this world, so I could rot in jail?

I don't think so dad......you are just like mom always said you were.......a nut. Gaurd.....open this door......and make sure that this nut never gets in here to see me again.

Now I ask you......who walked away from who?

This my friend happens all the time in this day and age to families all around the world. It also brings me right back to my last post about the difference between Apostates and Backsliders in the World and Our Church's today.

Ron Brown
Jul 24th 2008, 06:07 PM
By the way that you treat others.

Jesus tells us in John 13:34-35 to Love one another as He has Loved us. This Jesus tells us is a New commandment that he gives us to do.

The Love Walk that I am refering to is just that. Love everybody just as Jesus would Love them, no matter what they have done. Hope that helps...

No Christian man, woman, or child comes even close to this kind of love.

If this is what saved us from the Lake Of Fire, then we are all going to go there after judgement, both Christian and non Christian.

We are to strive to love as Christ loved, but none of us ever even come close.

BCF
Jul 24th 2008, 06:20 PM
No Christian man, woman, or child comes even close to this kind of love.

If this is what saved us from the Lake Of Fire, then we are all going to go there after judgement, both Christian and non Christian.

We are to strive to love as Christ loved, but none of us ever even come close.

Strive yes, perfect no. I never said one had to be perfect. If God would have wanted us to be perfect, He never would have sent His Son in the first place.

Ron Brown
Jul 24th 2008, 06:36 PM
Strive yes, perfect no. I never said one had to be perfect. If God would have wanted us to be perfect, He never would have sent His Son in the first place.

I know you didn't, but I wonder if you understand just how powerful the blood of Christ really is?

Christ's blood covered the sins of all of the world, both past, present, and future sin. Sin or Satan is not more powerful then the blood of Christ, and cannot cancel the blood's atonement out. To say so would be blasphemy.

Sin is not more powerful then the blood of Christ, so sin cannot cut anybody off from Christ once they have been saved. Christians are not only predestined to salvation, but also to justification, and to glorification, and no sin is powerful enough to destroy the predestined salvation, justification, and glorification, of the spirit filled bride of Christ according to the foreknowledge of God, as Romans 8:26-30 clearly states.

Biblical predestination according to the foreknowledge of God proves once saved, always saved. You can't lose what you never had in the first place.

For further information on predestination, read Ephesians 1:5 and 11. 2 Timothy 2:10 addresses the "elect" of God and their "eternal" glory, not possible glory because they might lose their election. Sin never cancels out the salvation of the elect of God.

BCF
Jul 24th 2008, 06:52 PM
Biblical predestination according to the foreknowledge of God proves once saved, always saved. You can't lose what you never had in the first place.

So what you say then is if someone claims to be saved for thirty years, and is a good Christian for those thirty years, then all of a sudden decides to kill someone for whatever reason, and denies Christ for the rest of his life, this person is still saved or you have the right to question his Salvation to begin with.

Since we are all predestined to be saved anyway......correct?

Oh, and just for the record........I do understand how powerful the shed blood of Our Lord is. Because I was a very very wretched man at one time. It is only because of My Lord that I am not.

Ron Brown
Jul 24th 2008, 07:03 PM
So what you say then is if someone claims to be saved for thirty years, and is a good Christian for those thirty years, then all of a sudden decides to kill someone for whatever reason, and denies Christ for the rest of his life, this person is still saved or you have the right to question his Salvation to begin with.

Since we are all predestined to be saved anyway......correct?

Oh, and just for the record........I do understand how powerful the shed blood of Our Lord is. Because I was a very very wretched man at one time. It is only because of My Lord that I am not.

The key word is "claims".

A man with a murderers heart is not, nor was he ever saved. 1 John 3:15 clearly states this.

BCF
Jul 24th 2008, 07:17 PM
The key word is "claims".

A man with a murderers heart is not, nor was he ever saved. 1 John 3:15 clearly states this.

But he did not have a murderers heart for his first thirty years. He only had the murderers heart after the thirty years of being saved Christian.

Like I asked you since this man started his first thirty years being a saved Christian, is he predestined to be saved anyway?

According to your thinking he is.

That my friend makes no sense at all.

BCF
Jul 24th 2008, 07:33 PM
A man with a murderers heart is not, nor was he ever saved. 1 John 3:15 clearly states this.

And just for the record, 1st John 3:15 is talking about murdering your brother Spiritually not Physically. You can't hate your brother Physically and murder him. But you can hate your brother Spiritually and Destroy him. Which would be the same thing as murdering him.

The writer is talking about Love in dead and truth in 1st John 3:13-24, and he is explaining how we are to follow the commandment of Our Lord Jesus with our Love walk.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 24th 2008, 07:34 PM
And for the Christian of 30 years who decides to enter into a life of extreme sin, is very chastised by God but does not 'turn back'. What then? He simply 'didn't know God' in the first place?

Such as?

If we belong to Him, He will finish the good work in us. Thus, I would argue anyone can appear to be a Christian, but appearances a Christian do not make.

RogerW
Jul 24th 2008, 07:43 PM
But he did not have a murderers heart for his first thirty years. He only had the murderers heart after the thirty years of being saved Christian.

Like I asked you since this man started his first thirty years being a saved Christian, is he predestined to be saved anyway?

According to your thinking he is.

That my friend makes no sense at all.

Then I guess David is not in heaven because he certainly had a murderers heart.

Blessings,
RW

Ron Brown
Jul 24th 2008, 08:00 PM
But he did not have a murderers heart for his first thirty years. He only had the murderers heart after the thirty years of being saved Christian.


Yes he did. He always had a murders heart, but we as men can't read his heart, so we never knew it, but God knew it through his foreknowledge.

Judas was chosen by Christ as one of the original twelve. Judas healed in the name of Jesus, he preached in the name of Jesus, he served others in the name of Jesus, but his heart was never filled with love for Christ, and because he appeared to be just as in love with Jesus as the other 11 disciples were, the other 11 disciples could not figure out who the betrayer was. You or I can fool other Christians, but we can't fool Christ, because he reads a man's heart, and we as humans can't. Judas was one of the 12 in body, but not in spirit.

The disciples had no idea that Judas had a betrayer's heart, because they can't read a man's heart and mind, but Christ could. Christ knows who will be saved and who will not be saved. The Jewish people all thought the Pharisees were good righteous saved men, but Christ said they were vipers and liars. The had man fooled, but not Christ. Christ knew Judas before he was born, and knew his heart, because Christ has supernatural foreknowledge, just as he knew the Pharisees hearts.

If a man claims to be a true born from above Christian, and yet he commits cold blooded murder after his conversion, he was never one of the elect. You or I may have thought he was, but you and I can't read a man's heart, and we have no supernatural foreknowledge to who is and who is not part of God's elect.

Men can fool us, but they can't fool Christ.

Remember, only God knows who for sure is his elect, so work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, as Paul told us to do.

BCF
Jul 24th 2008, 08:04 PM
Yes he did. He always had a murders heart, but we as men can't read his heart, so we never knew it, but God knew it through his foreknowledge.

Judas was chosen by Christ as one of the original twelve. Judas healed in the name of Jesus, he preached in the name of Jesus, he served others in the name of Jesus, but his heart was never filled with love for Christ, and because he appeared to be just as in love with Jesus as the other 11 disciples were, the other 11 disciples could not figure out who the betrayer was. You or I can fool other Christians, but we can't fool Christ, because he reads a man's heart, and we as humans can't. Judas was one of the 12 in body, but not in spirit.

The disciples had no idea that Judas had a betrayer's heart, because they can't read a man's heart and mind, but Christ could. Christ knows who will be saved and who will not be saved. The Jewish people all thought the Pharisees were good righteous saved men, but Christ said they were vipers and liars. The had man fooled, but not Christ. Christ knew Judas before he was born, and knew his heart, because Christ has supernatural foreknowledge, just as he knew the Pharisees hearts.

If a man claims to be a true born from above Christian, and yet he commits cold blooded murder after his conversion, he was never one of the elect. You or I may have thought he was, but you and I can't read a man's heart, and we have no supernatural foreknowledge to who is and who is not part of God's elect.

Men can fool us, but they can't fool Christ.

Remember, only God knows who for sure is his elect, so work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, as Paul told us to do.

Well then like my brother said,


Then I guess David is not in heaven because he certainly had a murderers heart.



God knew his heart also

RabbiKnife
Jul 24th 2008, 08:05 PM
No, David was a man after God's own heart...

He just happened to be a murderer and adulterer, too...


Hmmmmm........

Ron Brown
Jul 24th 2008, 08:12 PM
And just for the record, 1st John 3:15 is talking about murdering your brother Spiritually not Physically. You can't hate your brother Physically and murder him. But you can hate your brother Spiritually and Destroy him. Which would be the same thing as murdering him.


The scripture says "NO MURDERER" has eternal life in him.

The Greek word used for murderer in 1 John 3:15 is "anthropoktonos" which means manslayer, murderer. You need to read 1 John 3:15 in the proper context. John is comparing a person who hates his brother to a cold blooded murderer, and he says that a cold blooded murderer has no eternal life in him. It's very simple to understand my friend.

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2008, 08:13 PM
Sure they can be saved... IF they endure to the end. That's when salvation comes anyway. Today, we are saved, by faith. When our bodies are redeemed, we will be saved in actuality and from that day OSAS no doubt. Until then... take heed when you stand lest you fall.

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2008, 08:14 PM
No, David was a man after God's own heart...

He just happened to be a murderer and adulterer, too...


Hmmmmm........
No... he was a repented of and forgiven of murderer and adulterer. Monster difference. ;)

RabbiKnife
Jul 24th 2008, 08:17 PM
I thought he was a servant of God, annointed by the Holy Spirit, ministering to Saul, worshipping wildly before the Lord, a man after God's own heart...

THEN committed adultery and murder...


THEN was a repented of and forgiven of former murderer and adulterer!!!

Maybe we are both right...Tomato/ Tomahto!!!

:D

BCF
Jul 24th 2008, 08:18 PM
The scripture says "NO MURDERER" has eternal life in him.

The Greek word used for murderer in 1 John 3:15 is "anthropoktonos" which means manslayer, murderer. You need to read 1 John 3:15 in the proper context. John is comparing a person who hates his brother to a cold blooded murderer, and he says that a cold blooded murderer has no eternal life in him. It's very simple to understand my friend.

But a cold blooded murderer would not be a Christian to begin with. That would be like saying Charles Manson or Hitler are Saved. We know Hitler's not, and nobody wants to try and fugure out Manson......

RabbiKnife
Jul 24th 2008, 08:19 PM
Oh really?

I have murder in my heart.
I have adultery in my heart.
I have every form of wickedness ever known in my flesh.

Only the grace of God keeps my flesh under control.

Ron Brown
Jul 24th 2008, 08:22 PM
No, David was a man after God's own heart...

He just happened to be a murderer and adulterer, too...


Hmmmmm........

Exactly.

David did not have a murderers heart, or an adulterers heart, he had a heart after God's own heart, even though he sinned greatly.This is why Christ will sit on the throne of David, his earthly father, for all of eternity.

Remember however, that David's sin did not go unpunished. David's beloved son tried to kill him, so David's freind killed David's son, and David's heart was broken till the day he died over this. One of David's sons raped one of David's daughters, and then her brother killed him over it. David was a lover of Christ through types and shadows alluding to the Messiah, and David loved God above all others, but he paid dearly for his sins.

Ron Brown
Jul 24th 2008, 08:29 PM
But a cold blooded murderer would not be a Christian to begin with.

Now you understand. If a person claims to be born from above, and then murders in cold blood, he is a liar. None of God's elect are capable of murder, but most who claimed to be born from above through Christ are not. The path is indeed narrow my friend, and most who talk the talk, do not walk the walk.

If you are one of the Elect of God, then rest assured your salvation is secure, and you will never murder a man in cold blood.

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2008, 08:30 PM
Oh really?

I have murder in my heart.
I have adultery in my heart.
I have every form of wickedness ever known in my flesh.

Only the grace of God keeps my flesh under control.So your heart is evil? How can that be and you be His?

RabbiKnife
Jul 24th 2008, 08:33 PM
Brother, I can promise you that I am one of God's elect.

I also know the wickedness of my sin nature.

Given the right circumstance and the wrong influence, I can promise you that I am capable of cold-blooded murder.

The good that I would do I do not do, and the evil that I would not do, that I do. Oh wretched man that I am, who can save me from this body of death?

Only in Christ is there victory. In my flesh there is only death and destruction.

ProjectPeter
Jul 24th 2008, 08:36 PM
Gotta love Romans 7! That isn't what Paul was saying but I sure do see how folks love pulling that out of the bag! :lol:

BCF
Jul 24th 2008, 08:40 PM
Brother, I can promise you that I am one of God's elect.

I also know the wickedness of my sin nature.

Given the right circumstance and the wrong influence, I can promise you that I am capable of cold-blooded murder.

The good that I would do I do not do, and the evil that I would not do, that I do. Oh wretched man that I am, who can save me from this body of death?

Only in Christ is there victory. In my flesh there is only death and destruction.

Yeah, but my friend you can't sit there or stand there and tell me or anyone else honestly that you war against your Spirit each and everyday about killing someone in cold blood.

With those scriptures you just quoted Paul was talking about waring against his flesh and Spirit everyday about the things that he does.

RabbiKnife
Jul 24th 2008, 08:45 PM
Not ever day.

At times past, yes.

And I am not so vain as to assume not at some time in the future.


Christ had something to say about the difference between murder and hate as well.

BCF
Jul 24th 2008, 08:51 PM
Not ever day.

At times past, yes.

And I am not so vain as to assume not at some time in the future.


Christ had something to say about the difference between murder and hate as well.


That's right, sometime in the future you could. You could turn your back on God and never look back again. And that is what I am talking about.

Ron Brown
Jul 24th 2008, 08:52 PM
Brother, I can promise you that I am one of God's elect.

I also know the wickedness of my sin nature.

Given the right circumstance and the wrong influence, I can promise you that I am capable of cold-blooded murder.

The good that I would do I do not do, and the evil that I would not do, that I do. Oh wretched man that I am, who can save me from this body of death?

Only in Christ is there victory. In my flesh there is only death and destruction.

Do you understand the difference between killing a man and murdering a man? Just curious?

If I am at war overseas and I shoot a man with my rifle, I am a killer, but I am not a murderer.

If I am sleeping in my home, and an intruder breaks down the door, and I shoot him with my pistol in order to protect the perceived danger he poses to my wife and children, I am a killer, but not a murderer.

If I lie in wait for a woman to pull into my car at gun point, take her out to the woods, assault her, and then shoot her between the eyes killing her, then I am a murderer, not a killer.

A killer and a murderer are not the same thing in scripture.

A true born from above Christian is capable of killing, but not murdering.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 24th 2008, 09:40 PM
What - according to Scripture - causes a man to lose his salvation? I know we can easily say "apostasy" or "falling away," but again - according to Scripture - what would such things mean?

BCF
Jul 24th 2008, 09:59 PM
The book of Jude addresses "apostasy" in verses 3-19. It is a short book with a lot of information if you take the time to study it. Basically Apostates are people who know the real plan of Salvation (which would be what the Bible calls lukewarm Christians) although they may or may not have accepted it at one time, but they reject it and think they are being saved some other way.

While the Backslider on the other hand would be those people who stopped serving God, who can repent and start serving God again.

Hope that helps,

apothanein kerdos
Jul 24th 2008, 10:01 PM
The book of Jude addresses "apostasy" in verses 3-19. It is a short book with a lot of information if you take the time to study it. Basically Apostates are people who know the real plan of Salvation (which would be what the Bible calls lukewarm Christians) although they may or may not have accepted it at one time, but they reject it and think they are being saved some other way.

While the Backslider on the other hand would be those people who stopped serving God, who can repent and start serving God again.

Hope that helps,
This, of course, presents another problem. What is it to reject the plan of salvation? To say, "I'm no longer saved" or is it something deeper?

BCF
Jul 24th 2008, 10:24 PM
This, of course, presents another problem. What is it to reject the plan of salvation? To say, "I'm no longer saved" or is it something deeper?

You don't say anything. You just turn your back on God. Walk away from him and never turn back.

My friend, you are here today and gone tomorrow. We do not know what we do from one day to the next. We live out our Salvation daily. We walk in it and we talk in it. If we are true believers we understand this because the scriptures tell us this. This is where our Love for our Lord comes into play, better known as our Love walk. We do this not as a form of work, but as a form of Love to our Lord, who shed his blood for us. It is a form of humbleness on our part, not work as some seem to think. This is why Paul tells us in 1st Cor 6 that our bodies are not our own, but we were bought with a price, and that we are to Glorify God with it.

Now this does not mean that we are to be perfect either, but it does mean that we are to strive to be just like Christ. This is where the Grace of God comes into play because we can't be perfect. That's why Jesus gave us the commandment that He did to Love one another as he has Loved us in John 13:34-35. Not so we would be perfect at it, but so we would strive for it each and everyday. For God's Glory, not ours.

Ron Brown
Jul 24th 2008, 10:41 PM
The book of Jude addresses "apostasy" in verses 3-19. It is a short book with a lot of information if you take the time to study it. Basically Apostates are people who know the real plan of Salvation (which would be what the Bible calls lukewarm Christians) although they may or may not have accepted it at one time, but they reject it and think they are being saved some other way.

While the Backslider on the other hand would be those people who stopped serving God, who can repent and start serving God again.

Hope that helps,

Here is a link to a good study on Jude and apostasy. It's long but good.

Link http://www.angelfire.com/mi/universe/jude.html

BCF
Jul 24th 2008, 11:21 PM
Here is a link to a good study on Jude and apostasy. It's long but good.

Link http://www.angelfire.com/mi/universe/jude.html

Thank you for the link, and I have read it like you asked. I did not study it, but I read it. But I must be honest with you, just by reading it I found a contradiction in it from the Bible.

In lesson one I read this, "But regardless of our spiritual growth, or lack of it, we are and always will be classified as"beloved"of God, because we are in Christ through our acceptance of Him as our personal Savior."

And in lesson two I read this, "and secondly all believers in Jesus Christ should learn and apply the Word of God on a daily basis."

The scripture tells me in Revelations 3:15-16 that Jesus tells the writer John to write this, "15. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I wish thou were cold or hot. 16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and nether cold nor hot, I will spit thee out of my mouth."

My friend you cannot have spiritual growth or lack of it and walk the Word of God out on a Daily basis all at the same time & still be saved. The two don't go hand in hand. That my friend is simply called a lukewarm Christian. And Jesus told John what he would do to a lukewarm Christian.

Ron Brown
Jul 24th 2008, 11:48 PM
Thank you for the link, and I have read it like you asked. I did not study it, but I read it. But I must be honest with you, just by reading it I found a contradiction in it from the Bible.

In lesson one I read this, "But regardless of our spiritual growth, or lack of it, we are and always will be classified as"beloved"of God, because we are in Christ through our acceptance of Him as our personal Savior."

And in lesson two I read this, "and secondly all believers in Jesus Christ should learn and apply the Word of God on a daily basis."

The scripture tells me in Revelations 3:15-16 that Jesus tells the writer John to write this, "15. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I wish thou were cold or hot. 16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and nether cold nor hot, I will spit thee out of my mouth."

My friend you cannot have spiritual growth or lack of it and walk the Word of God out on a Daily basis all at the same time & still be saved. The two don't go hand in hand. That my friend is simply called a lukewarm Christian. And Jesus told John what he would do to a lukewarm Christian.


So, do babes in Christ(Carnal Christians) go to Hell?

Remember in 1 Corinthians Paul told the Church in Corinth that he could not even give them solid food(the word of god), because they were still babes feeding on milk. Paul called them "Carnal Christians." They were saved, but they had no clue about the word of God, or how to behave as a Christian, and yet Paul still called them brothers and sisters in Christ.

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 12:27 AM
So, do babes in Christ(Carnal Christians) go to Hell?

Remember in 1 Corinthians Paul told the Church in Corinth that he could not even give them solid food(the word of god), because they were still babes feeding on milk. Paul called them "Carnal Christians." They were saved, but they had no clue about the word of God, or how to behave as a Christian, and yet Paul still called them brothers and sisters in Christ.

To answer your question, the answer is NO. Babes in Christ don't go to hell. For the simple reason babes in Christ are not carnal Christians.

Paul wrote in Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. A babe in Christ is not trying to walk after it's flesh. It is trying to walk after the Spirit. It is up to the mature Christian to make sure that, that babe in Christ grows correctly. It is not up to the babe in Christ to make sure that it grows up correctly.

When Paul was with those people of Corinth, they were not and should not have been babes in Christ. Paul spent a lot of time teaching those people the word of God I suppose since he built a church their and these people still were not growing. That is what Paul was complaining about in 1st Cor 3:1-3 when he says to them, "1. And I brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, NEITHER YET NOW ARE YE ABLE. 3. FOR YE ARE YET CARNAL: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, ARE YE NOT CARNAL, AND WALK AS MEN?

Paul was not calling these people carnal because they were babes in Christ. Paul was calling these people carnal because they were not growing after all of his teaching they still were not growing, and he was upset with them. They should have been growing and eating meat and they were still drinking milk. If they were drinking milk at all.

As far as him calling them brothers and sisters. We are all brothers and sisters, because we all come from the same source. Our Loving Lord and His Spirit.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 12:32 AM
To answer your question, the answer is NO. Babes in Christ don't go to hell. For the simple reason babes in Christ are not carnal Christians.

Paul wrote in Romans 8:1, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. A babe in Christ is not trying to walk after it's flesh. It is trying to walk after the Spirit. It is up to the mature Christian to make sure that, that babe in Christ grows correctly. It is not up to the babe in Christ to make sure that it grows up correctly.

When Paul was with those people of Corinth, they were not and should not have been babes in Christ. Paul spent a lot of time teaching those people the word of God I suppose since he built a church their and these people still were not growing. That is what Paul was complaining about in 1st Cor 3:1-3 when he says to them, "1. And I brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, NEITHER YET NOW ARE YE ABLE. 3. FOR YE ARE YET CARNAL: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, ARE YE NOT CARNAL, AND WALK AS MEN?

Paul was not calling these people carnal because they were babes in Christ. Paul was calling these people carnal because they were not growing after all of his teaching they still were not growing, and he was upset with them. They should have been growing and eating meat and they were still drinking milk. If they were drinking milk at all.

As far as him calling them brothers and sisters. We are all brothers and sisters, because we all come from the same source. Our Loving Lord and His Spirit.

You answered your own question. Luke warm is talking about people who 'play church" but are not born again. The luke warm church players lead people astray who are cold and lost, and God will not stand for this at all.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 12:33 AM
So, do babes in Christ(Carnal Christians) go to Hell?

Remember in 1 Corinthians Paul told the Church in Corinth that he could not even give them solid food(the word of god), because they were still babes feeding on milk. Paul called them "Carnal Christians." They were saved, but they had no clue about the word of God, or how to behave as a Christian, and yet Paul still called them brothers and sisters in Christ.
And warned them that "such as these will not inherit the kingdom of God." Folks tend to not want to pay much attention to that part. ;)

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 12:39 AM
And warned them that "such as these will not inherit the kingdom of God." Folks tend to not want to pay much attention to that part. ;)

So, saved people can still go to Hell if they are babes in Christ?

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 12:44 AM
So, saved people can still go to Hell if they are babes in Christ?
It has nothing to do with them being saved. We make all these phrases up and sure... we read where Paul says they are like babes and so off we run and build a doctrine around it. But truth... they aren't saved any more or less than a person been saved for 20 years. They are all still saved, by faith. Neither they or the 20 year old Christian are actually saved until they have finished the race/endured to the end/stood fast/ etc.

If folks would understand that very clearly taught and simple biblical truth... OSAS and NOSAS would not ever be a problem again theologically. ;)

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 01:05 AM
You answered your own question. Luke warm is talking about people who 'play church" but are not born again. The luke warm church players lead people astray who are cold and lost, and God will not stand for this at all.

Yes you are right, God will not stand for the luke warm Christian at all. But it was not my question I answered. I have been saying this all along. You were the one who said this


Sin is not more powerful then the blood of Christ, so sin cannot cut anybody off from Christ once they have been saved. Christians are not only predestined to salvation, but also to justification, and to glorification, and no sin is powerful enough to destroy the predestined salvation, justification, and glorification, of the spirit filled bride of Christ according to the foreknowledge of God, as Romans 8:26-30 clearly states.

Biblical predestination according to the foreknowledge of God proves once saved, always saved. You can't lose what you never had in the first place.

For further information on predestination, read Ephesians 1:5 and 11. 2 Timothy 2:10 addresses the "elect" of God and their "eternal" glory, not possible glory because they might lose their election. Sin never cancels out the salvation of the elect of God.

not me my friend.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 25th 2008, 01:09 AM
You don't say anything. You just turn your back on God. Walk away from him and never turn back.

My friend, you are here today and gone tomorrow. We do not know what we do from one day to the next. We live out our Salvation daily. We walk in it and we talk in it. If we are true believers we understand this because the scriptures tell us this. This is where our Love for our Lord comes into play, better known as our Love walk. We do this not as a form of work, but as a form of Love to our Lord, who shed his blood for us. It is a form of humbleness on our part, not work as some seem to think. This is why Paul tells us in 1st Cor 6 that our bodies are not our own, but we were bought with a price, and that we are to Glorify God with it.

Now this does not mean that we are to be perfect either, but it does mean that we are to strive to be just like Christ. This is where the Grace of God comes into play because we can't be perfect. That's why Jesus gave us the commandment that He did to Love one another as he has Loved us in John 13:34-35. Not so we would be perfect at it, but so we would strive for it each and everyday. For God's Glory, not ours.


So I can lead a homosexual lifestyle and not lose my salvation so long as I worship God and don't turn my back on Him?

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 01:17 AM
Yes you are right, God will not stand for the luke warm Christian at all.

A person who is luke warm was never a Christian in the first place. They were simply a church player or a Pharisee in Christ's time.

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 01:20 AM
So I can lead a homosexual lifestyle and not lose my salvation so long as I worship God and don't turn my back on Him?

No....living a homosexual lifestyle is turning your back on God. You can worship God all you want to. If you stay in that lifestyle you are nothing more then a lukewarm Christian.

At least that is the way I interpret the scripture anyway.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 01:23 AM
So I can lead a homosexual lifestyle and not lose my salvation so long as I worship God and don't turn my back on Him?

Yes. As long as you say you love jesus, remain self righteous by going to church every Sunday and Wednesday, you give tithes and offerings, have a positive outlook on life, think good thoughts about yourslef, and you live better then your neighbor does according to the code of ethics which best fits you, then you can remain saved despite your homosexual lifestyle. This is the Joel Osteen modern day path to salvation that most churches today teach, but I would not recommend trying it out if I were you.

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 01:25 AM
A person who is luke warm was never a Christian in the first place. They were simply a church player or a Pharisee in Christ's time.

Yes, I agree with you. The only problem is, how do you know that they are lukewarm? Do you know and understand their heart?

We don't have the right to call anyone lukewarm, because we are called to Love not judge. You show me a place in scripture where it tells us that we are to be the judge of man?

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 01:26 AM
Not wanting to get into which is correct or why, we believe what we believe, but can both Non-OSAS and OSAS folks be saved?

It seems to me that they are diametrically opposed and that one or the other is 100% wrong. I mean it can't be both ways. Someone on the board has suggested that it is neither but if its one or the other it has to be one or the other.


Salvation is of the Lord... so who can add to their salvation? Could not folks from either doctrinal camp of [N]OSAS be saved by God for His purposes?

Again, isn't salvation of the Lord?

:2cents:


For His glory...

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 01:30 AM
So I can lead a homosexual lifestyle and not lose my salvation so long as I worship God and don't turn my back on Him?
If you are living that lifestyle then you have denied Him... by your deeds.

Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient, and worthless for any good deed.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 01:31 AM
Salvation is of the Lord... so who can add to their salvation? Could not folks from either doctrinal camp of [N]OSAS be saved by God for His purposes?

Again, isn't salvation of the Lord?

:2cents:


For His glory...
Follow the thread man and see where it has progressed. It will make your Reformed head spin as much as it is my Pentecostal one. :lol:

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 01:37 AM
Follow the thread man and see where it has progressed. It will make your Reformed head spin as much as it is my Pentecostal one. :lol:


The thread was screaming for return to the OP..... :saint:

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 01:40 AM
So I can lead a homosexual lifestyle and not lose my salvation so long as I worship God and don't turn my back on Him?

Also I might add that if you are living that lifestyle, not all is lost and you would still have Hope. All you would need to do is Repent from your sin, and turn away from your sin. God will be Faithful and cleanse your Heart from your sin, and set you free from your bondage of sin.

All you would need to do is ask Him.

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 01:42 AM
The thread was screaming for return to the OP..... :saint:

Hey, at least we are not in a dog fight:lol:

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 01:44 AM
The thread was screaming for return to the OP..... :saint:
Ha! It is so far gone from that but then I figure the OP was setting it up for this anyway. ;)

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 01:44 AM
Hey, at least we are not in a dog fight:lol:


Amen .

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 01:44 AM
Hey, at least we are not in a dog fight:lol:
Oh not yet... time has a way of fixing that though. ;) :lol:

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 01:47 AM
I may have derailed this thread a bit, but I think it has taken an interesting turn, and you guys are very fun to talk about the scriptures with.

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 01:47 AM
Ha! It is so far gone from that but then I figure the OP was setting it up for this anyway. ;)


I'm not as sure, for to me Mike's questions don't always have an agenda, and I think it was an honest attempt to ask the age old question a different way....? At least that's how I want to read it... with a bit of grace... and not agenda...

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 01:49 AM
Oh not yet... time has a way of fixing that though. ;) :lol:



This big dog is learning to stay in the kennel.... Woof... :rofl:

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 01:53 AM
This big dog is learning to stay in the kennel.... Woof... :rofl:

I usually stay away too, but for some unknown reason I got caught up in this one.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 01:54 AM
I'm not as sure, for to me Mike's questions don't always have an agenda, and I think it was an honest attempt to ask the age old question a different way....? At least that's how I want to read it... with a bit of grace... and not agenda...
Yeah but then there was that comment about not understanding why the "diehards haven't posted yet and how it was a surprise." It is the Internet... there is generally always an agenda! But then I am a tad jaded there I admit. :D

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 01:55 AM
I usually stay away too, but for some unknown reason I got caught up in this one.


Long leashes are a killer ... :lol:

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 01:57 AM
And back to the OP. No... it isn't about OSAS or NOSAS. I am really OSAS. Really. I am. Sounds hard to believe but I am. Problem is... what that means today is all messed up. I suppose I could go back in history and say it was messed up with Luther... and if not him then certainly Calvin. But then someone with more a grasp of history would say oh no... even blah blah blah. None of that really matters to me the when. All that matters to me is that today it really is all messed up. And this much I know... history proves that.

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 01:57 AM
Yeah but then there was that comment about not understanding why the "diehards haven't posted yet and how it was a surprise." It is the Internet... there is generally always an agenda! But then I am a tad jaded there I admit. :D


If it were me, I'd have added that just to tug on the old choke chain.... hey these metaphors can go on all night, eh? :rofl:

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 01:58 AM
Gotta love a metaphor or two! ;)

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 01:59 AM
And back to the OP. No... it isn't about OSAS or NOSAS. I am really OSAS. Really. I am. Sounds hard to believe but I am. Problem is... what that means today is all messed up. I suppose I could go back in history and say it was messed up with Luther... and if not him then certainly Calvin. But then someone with more a grasp of history would say oh no... even blah blah blah. None of that really matters to me the when. All that matters to me is that today it really is all messed up. And this much I know... history proves that.


Ah sweet victory.... :rofl::rofl::rofl:


Sorry... the door was open... RbG... get back into the kennel....

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:10 AM
Ah sweet victory.... :rofl::rofl::rofl:


Sorry... the door was open... RbG... get back into the kennel....
Hah... you opened a door... I had to go through it! :saint: And Admin derail privilege... things going okay on your end?

phillipj
Jul 25th 2008, 02:13 AM
Both can absolutely be saved. My belief is that good faith and being a good person is the way to be saved.

mikebr
Jul 25th 2008, 02:17 AM
Both can absolutely be saved. My belief is that good faith and being a good person is the way to be saved.

None are righteous, no not one.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:21 AM
None are righteous, no not one.
Yet all through the Psalms David spoke of the righteous and the unrighteous. Now... in the Psalm Paul quoted... he either did one or two things. He was talking about those that were enemies of God or he was talking about EVERYONE. Clue... he spoke too much of the righteous and he was talking about his enemies. Again... clue. David wasn't talking about EVERY ONE ON THE PLANET. He was talking about those that were enemies. Context is a bear man! Kicks a whole bunch of sacred doctrinal cows slap in the fanny!

fewarechosen
Jul 25th 2008, 02:22 AM
i think some out of pride of knowledge will say im osas
and some out of pride of knowledge will say im nosas

and god will say to both wrong answer

abide in what he taught, the race is not over till you cross the finish line, you can stray to the right or to the left for narrow it is

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 02:25 AM
Hey Ron,

Here is a question for you. I know someone who had a son who was a Sunday School Teacher and a Leader in our Church, ever since I was a little boy before he became a homosexual. During this time this young man said that he was a Born Again Christian, up until the day he died. About five years or so after becoming a homosexual he was infected with aids. He died from aids three years later.

Now before he died he had repented of his sin and moved away from his lover. One year before his death he moved back in with his lover and started to practice this sin again. He would call his dad on the phone and pray with his dad to God for forgiveness for his actions. This mans family believes that their son is in heaven.

What does the scripture tell you?

I know what it tells me.

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 02:28 AM
Hah... you opened a door... I had to go through it! :saint: And Admin derail privilege... things going okay on your end?


God is so good.... As you may have remembered, my mom was at death's door with 3 very bad heart valves a few month's back and both my mom and dad came to live with us back is March, for she was so weak, she could barely stand without being out of breath....

But God.... But God, for whom we were stating thy will be done, we were prepared for Him taking her home to be with Him, or for a miracle, and God blessed us with a miracle.... It is such a miracle that both mom and dad are able to move back to their own home and my mother now walks unassisted again.... Did I say God is good yet?

What a blessing it has been to my family and I to see God working within my mother's life; spent great amounts of time talking, reading and praying with her and dad about our Savior, to help them through the tears of prayer and submission - and seeing their tears turned into tears of joy, that through the hands of the surgeon and her 2nd open heart surgery, God has gifted her more time on this earth, and not only time, but able to again eat, breath and walk as she did a year ago... we are soooooo blessed, words cannot begin to describe the grace and gratitude, along with joy....

But enough about me


How about you?

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 02:39 AM
i think some out of pride of knowledge will say im osas
and some out of pride of knowledge will say im nosas

and god will say to both wrong answer

abide in what he taught, the race is not over till you cross the finish line, you can stray to the right or to the left for narrow it is

I really have no preference to either or. I figure it this way. God saved me for one reason and one reason only. To help bring as many of his children into the family of Christ as I can, until my race is over. Whoever or whomever they my be. And I am to do that through His Love.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 02:40 AM
Hey Ron,

Here is a question for you. I know someone who had a son who was a Sunday School Teacher and a Leader in our Church, ever since I was a little boy before he became a homosexual. During this time this young man said that he was a Born Again Christian, up until the day he died. About five years or so after becoming a homosexual he was infected with aids. He died from aids three years later.

Now before he died he had repented of his sin and moved away from his lover. One year before his death he moved back in with his lover and started to practice this sin again. He would call his dad on the phone and pray with his dad to God for forgiveness for his actions. This mans family believes that their son is in heaven.

What does the scripture tell you?

I know what it tells me.

Read 1 Cor 6:9, Gal 5:19-21, and Revelation 21:8 for your answer.

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 02:41 AM
God is so good.... As you may have remembered, my mom was at death's door with 3 very bad heart valves a few month's back and both my mom and dad came to live with us back is March, for she was so weak, she could barely stand without being out of breath....

But God.... But God, for whom we were stating thy will be done, we were prepared for Him taking her home to be with Him, or for a miracle, and God blessed us with a miracle.... It is such a miracle that both mom and dad are able to move back to their own home and my mother now walks unassisted again.... Did I say God is good yet?

What a blessing it has been to my family and I to see God working within my mother's life; spent great amounts of time talking, reading and praying with her and dad about our Savior, to help them through the tears of prayer and submission - and seeing their tears turned into tears of joy, that through the hands of the surgeon and her 2nd open heart surgery, God has gifted her more time on this earth, and not only time, but able to again eat, breath and walk as she did a year ago... we are soooooo blessed, words cannot begin to describe the grace and gratitude, along with joy....

But enough about me


How about you?

Redeemed by Grace that is WONDERFUL:pp:pp:pp:pp:pp:pp


I PRAISE THE HOLY NAME OF OUR LORD:pp:pp:pp:pp:pp:pp

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 02:45 AM
Read 1 Cor 6:9, Gal 5:19-21, and Revelation 21:8 for your answer.

Yeah, I know that, but that goes against what you were saying before does it not?

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 02:49 AM
Redeemed by Grace that is WONDERFUL:pp:pp:pp:pp:pp:pp


I PRAISE THE HOLY NAME OF OUR LORD:pp:pp:pp:pp:pp:pp


To God be the glory, great things He has done...

BCF, if you have time tomorrow during lunch, it be a blessing if you would join a small group of us in prayer, praying for God to be glorified, and for each other here at Bible Chat.... No formal time nor topics per se, just to seek God in humility and with thanksgiving...

God's blessings...

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 02:56 AM
Yeah, I know that, but that goes against what you were saying before does it not?

How so?:confused Thanks.

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 03:10 AM
To God be the glory, great things He has done...

BCF, if you have time tomorrow during lunch, it be a blessing if you would join a small group of us in prayer, praying for God to be glorified, and for each other here at Bible Chat.... No formal time nor topics per se, just to seek God in humility and with thanksgiving...

God's blessings...

Sure I would love to join your little group tomorrow at lunch. Is their someplace where we meet here on the board or is this something that I do on my own from my home.

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 03:17 AM
How so?:confused Thanks.

Well did you not say,


Sin is not more powerful then the blood of Christ, so sin cannot cut anybody off from Christ once they have been saved.

I would call practicing homosexuality a sin. This person I know was saved at one time. You will never be able to convince anyone who knew him that he was not saved at one time either.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 25th 2008, 03:41 AM
No....living a homosexual lifestyle is turning your back on God. You can worship God all you want to. If you stay in that lifestyle you are nothing more then a lukewarm Christian.

At least that is the way I interpret the scripture anyway.

So what amount of sin constitutes "turning your back on God?"

Do I need to sleep with a man 5 times, 10 times, 20 times? How far is too far before I've turned my back?


If you are living that lifestyle then you have denied Him... by your deeds.

Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient, and worthless for any good deed.

Then the same question stands: how many deeds do I need to commit before my back is officially turned on Him?

fewarechosen
Jul 25th 2008, 04:07 AM
tricky game when you can point out a individual and say you know they went to hell

i let god decide, and i worry about myself

i am the judge of no man

that man as his lips were to weak to speak about to die, could have repented his sins, who i am to say he didnt who am i to say i know what happend

god knows the hearts of men not us

so in the true spirit of christ i say be carefull of such things

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 04:12 AM
So what amount of sin constitutes "turning your back on God?"

Do I need to sleep with a man 5 times, 10 times, 20 times? How far is too far before I've turned my back?


Sin is Sin my friend. There is no measuring stick to it. As soon as you commit the sin you have turned your back. But yet even though we all turn our backs on God at some point in our day. God Loves us soooooo much that he has Grace for us and all of our sins, through our repentance and the shed Blood of Jesus Christ. When we look at sin in this manner it brings a whole new out look to John 3:16, and makes us want to Love Our Lord even that much more.

Does this mean that we need to be perfect? No. God is not looking for perfect people. God is looking for people who will just Love him over anything in their life.

As for your second quote I will leave that one up to PP to give his own thoughts.

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 04:23 AM
tricky game when you can point out a individual and say you know they went to hell

i let god decide, and i worry about myself

i am the judge of no man

that man as his lips were to weak to speak about to die, could have repented his sins, who i am to say he didnt who am i to say i know what happend

god knows the hearts of men not us

so in the true spirit of christ i say be carefull of such things

What are you getting all bent out of shape about........
I never said I knew he went to hell and neither did Ron, all we said is what the Bible said and that is all we said.

Now my friend if you have a problem with the scripture, take it up with God.....not us.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 25th 2008, 04:26 AM
Sin is Sin my friend. There is no measuring stick to it. As soon as you commit the sin you have turned your back. But yet even though we all turn our backs on God at some point in our day. God Loves us soooooo much that he has Grace for us and all of our sins, through our repentance and the shed Blood of Jesus Christ. When we look at sin in this manner it brings a whole new out look to John 3:16, and makes us want to Love Our Lord even that much more.

Does this mean that we need to be perfect? No. God is not looking for perfect people. God is looking for people who will just Love him over anything in their life.

As for your second quote I will leave that one up to PP to give his own thoughts.

Ah, so when I sin - no matter how big or how many times - I'm going to Hell? If not, then the question still stands - why can't I lead a life of homosexuality and still be saved?

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 04:28 AM
Well did you not say,



I would call practicing homosexuality a sin. This person I know was saved at one time. You will never be able to convince anyone who knew him that he was not saved at one time either.

You or me or anybody else can't read a man's heart to say whether he is saved or not, only God can. The person doesn't have to convince you or his family to be saved, he has to convince God. He has to work out his own salvation with fear and trembling, and a practicing homosexual is obviously not afraid of God's judgment, although he should be.

Do you believe that Paul and John were correct in stating that a practicing homosexual will not be in the kingdom of God? Do you believe in the infallibility of their letters in scripture? If you believe that Paul and John are telling the truth, then a practicing homosexual is in Hell when he dies. If Paul and John are lying about this, then they are lying about everything else as well, and scripture is not infallible.

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 04:43 AM
Ah, so when I sin - no matter how big or how many times - I'm going to Hell?

Yes, unless you repent and turn from your sin according to scripture.


If not, then the question still stands - why can't I lead a life of homosexuality and still be saved?

Because practicing homosexuality is an abomination to God. Why? Because God made man and woman to be together, not man and man or woman and woman.

NightWatchman
Jul 25th 2008, 04:44 AM
Now you understand. If a person claims to be born from above, and then murders in cold blood, he is a liar. None of God's elect are capable of murder, but most who claimed to be born from above through Christ are not. The path is indeed narrow my friend, and most who talk the talk, do not walk the walk.

If you are one of the Elect of God, then rest assured your salvation is secure, and you will never murder a man in cold blood.

How do you know that the boldface above is true?
It is not wise for you to judge others whose heart only God knows.

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 04:46 AM
You or me or anybody else can't read a man's heart to say whether he is saved or not, only God can. The person doesn't have to convince you or his family to be saved, he has to convince God. He has to work out his own salvation with fear and trembling, and a practicing homosexual is obviously not afraid of God's judgment, although he should be.



I agree


Do you believe that Paul and John were correct in stating that a practicing homosexual will not be in the kingdom of God? Do you believe in the infallibility of their letters in scripture? If you believe that Paul and John are telling the truth, then a practicing homosexual is in Hell when he dies. If Paul and John are lying about this, then they are lying about everything else as well, and scripture is not infallible.

Yes I do believe what John and Paul wrote in their letters. I never said that I did not.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 04:51 AM
How do you know that the boldface above is true?
It is not wise for you to judge others whose heart only God knows.

Mathew 7:14. "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Christ doesn't say that many will find salvation, but that few will find it.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 04:53 AM
I agree



Yes I do believe what John and Paul wrote in their letters. I never said that I did not.


Since you agree with me, then what are you confused about? Thanks.

My heart's Desire
Jul 25th 2008, 05:01 AM
Okay, I don't want to use my son anymore because I don't want him to get caught up in the middle of something that I am praying that he stays far away from. If that makes any sense.

With that being said, let's say that Rabbit had a son who's name was Cat. Cat lived with his Mother the Chicken. The Cat's Father the Rabbit was a Christian Rabbit who Loved the Lord and tried to bring up his son the Cat in a good and Godly home all of the Cat's childhood life. The Mother the Chicken on the other hand did not live in a Godly home and left her son the Rabbit run as he wanted to when he was their.

Well one day when the Cat turned 18 (in human age) the Cat's Mother the Chicken left him go to a party with his friends. One of his friends brought some catnip (drugs) to the party and things really started to pick up. Well it just so happens that the police Mice were following up on a led that they got and they bust the party. During the bust the Cat shot one of the police Mice and killed him. The Cat got hauled off to jail and to trial and ended up with a sentence of life in prison in the kitty pound.

The Cat's Mother the Chicken would come once a week and visit her son, because she had other things to do throughout her week. But the Cat's Father would visit him everyday after work, so that he could show his son the Love of Christ and teach him the Gospel of forgiveness and Gods Grace. This went on for the next five years until one day the son got tired of it and said to his Father.....DAD.....WILL YOU SHUT UP ALREADY WITH THAT JESUS STUFF. JESUS CAN'T DO NOTHING FOR ME NOW THAT I AM IN JAIL. BESIDES, WHERE WAS HE WHEN I NEEDED HIM IF HE NEVER LEAVES ME LIKE YOU KEEP SAYING HE DOES. The Father calmly says, well son all you need to do is repent of your sins and Jesus will forgive you and you will be set free in your heart from that sin. All you did was backslide. You have been saved ever since you were a little boy when you said that sinners prayer. Remember. God never left you. You just slipped a little. The son then says, well then why am I in here for the rest of my life then? Did God want me to spend the rest of my life in a jail cell? Is this why he brought me into this world, so I could rot in jail?

I don't think so dad......you are just like mom always said you were.......a nut. Gaurd.....open this door......and make sure that this nut never gets in here to see me again.

Now I ask you......who walked away from who?

This my friend happens all the time in this day and age to families all around the world. It also brings me right back to my last post about the difference between Apostates and Backsliders in the World and Our Church's today.
Yes, and the fact remains that despite their actions and words, only that one knows if they are saved or not. Yes, we can talk about fruit etc but only God knows the heart. I'm a firm believer that only one person can be sure of their salvation and that is that person alone.We all know what sin is and we could even tell someone that they are living in sin but we cannot tell them if they are saved or not. The only one who knows are themselves.

I'm of the opinion that an apostate was never saved and is one who teaches false doctrine. I think of the story in the gospels when Jesus told the Pharisees in Matt. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 05:18 AM
Yes, and the fact remains that despite their actions and words, only that one knows if they are saved or not. Yes, we can talk about fruit etc but only God knows the heart. I'm a firm believer that only one person can be sure of their salvation and that is that person alone.We all know what sin is and we could even tell someone that they are living in sin but we cannot tell them if they are saved or not. The only one who knows are themselves.


Many think they are saved, but few are.

Every Mormon I have known or visited with tell me they are saved by the blood of Christ, so do they know they are saved? They say they are saved, but are they? The only one who knows are themselves?

Some people will tell you the know they are saved, but are they?

Depends on who you say Christ is. You can't believe in your own version of Christ and be saved. You either believe in the Christ from Genesis-Revelation, or you believe in false Christ. You can't say I believe in John 3:16, but the rest of the Bible I'm not so sure about, looks like a bunch of stories to me, and then claim to be saved. If you do, you deceive yourself, and you will be cast into the Lake Of Fire with Satan, the beast, and the false phrophet.

My heart's Desire
Jul 25th 2008, 05:22 AM
Neither they or the 20 year old Christian are actually saved until they have finished the race/endured to the end/stood fast/ etc.

Well, yes and NO. That is like saying to be saved you must believe in Christ + race +finish+endure+stand fast + Do all YOU CAN and only then can YOU save YOU!
Peter's here! :kiss:
Can't help it! I gotta rib ya! Where have ya been? In another thread I guess!

My heart's Desire
Jul 25th 2008, 05:24 AM
Many think they are saved, but few are.

Every Mormon I have known or visited with tell me they are saved by the blood of Christ, so do they know they are saved? They say they are saved, but are they? The only one who knows are themselves?

Some people will tell you the know they are saved, but are they?

Depends on who you say Christ is. You can't believe in your own version of Christ and be saved. You either believe in the Christ from Genesis-Revelation, or you believe in false Christ. You can't say I believe in John 3:16, but the rest of the Bible I'm not so sure about, looks like a bunch of stories to me, and then claim to be saved. If you do, you deceive yourself, and you will be cast into the Lake Of Fire with Satan, the beast, and the false phrophet.
I believe that deep, deep in their heart they know it or deep inside they know it is not true. Yes, I could be wrong, but I think they know!
For example, they may say they are to you, but somewhere deep inside at one time or the other they know they're not.

My heart's Desire
Jul 25th 2008, 05:30 AM
Many think they are saved, but few are.

Every Mormon I have known or visited with tell me they are saved by the blood of Christ, so do they know they are saved? They say they are saved, but are they? The only one who knows are themselves?

Some people will tell you the know they are saved, but are they?


Well, my Catholic friends say they are too, yet we know their doctrine and religion, but if they say they are saved, I'm afraid to tell them they are not.
Look I'll be honest with you. If someone I know tells me they are saved and yet they tell me any other way of salvation beside By grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, and they add to it this and that, then I'd be suspicious, but again I do not know their heart.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 05:39 AM
Well, my Catholic friends say they are too, yet we know their doctrine and religion, but if they say they are saved, I'm afraid to tell them they are not.
Look I'll be honest with you. If someone I know tells me they are saved and yet they tell me any other way of salvation beside By grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, and they add to it this and that, then I'd be suspicious, but again I do not know their heart.

But who do they say Jesus Christ is?

I have studied darn near every cult on the planet, and most of them that were started after the first century AD talk about Jesus. So then the question has to be asked, who's version of Christ is right? Is Mohammed's version of Christ right, It the Watch Tower's version of Christ right? Is the Mormon's version of Christ right? Is Hare Krishna'a version of Christ right? Is the Oneness Pentecostalism's version of Christ right? Etc........

There is only one version of Christ that is right, and that is the Christ that is revealed in Genesis-Revelation, and if you leave out one chapter in the Bible, you have left out true Christ, and you are lost.

My heart's Desire
Jul 25th 2008, 05:46 AM
But who do they say Jesus Christ is?

I have studied darn near every cult on the planet, and most of them that were started after the first century AD talk about Jesus. So then the question has to be asked, who's version of Christ is right? Is Mohammed's version of Christ right, It the Watch Tower's version of Christ right? Is the Mormon's version of Christ right? Is Hare Krishna'a version of Christ right? Is the Oneness Pentecostalism's version of Christ right? Etc........

There is only one version of Christ that is right, and that is the Christ that is revealed in Genesis-Revelation, and if you leave out one chapter in the Bible, you have left out true Christ, and you are lost.
Well, that's an interesting way of saying it, but really one is lost only if that one is not trusting Christ to save them. And if I understand you right, yes, what one believes about Christ will reveal to you if they are trusting the right Savior or not. And you are rightl It all comes down to who do they say Jesus Christ is.

My heart's Desire
Jul 25th 2008, 05:54 AM
I gotta go to bed. Have a great evening ya'll. God Bless.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 05:58 AM
Well, that's an interesting way of saying it, but really one is lost only if that one is not trusting Christ to save them. And if I understand you right, yes, what one believes about Christ will reveal to you if they are trusting the right Savior or not. And you are rightl It all comes down to who do they say Jesus Christ is.

You are correct. Everybody knows that Jesus of Nazareth lived in the first century AD, but everybody also has their own ideas of who Christ was. Believing that Christ existed doesn't save anybody from death, and Hell, because ancient history outside of the Bible tells us that Jesus existed.

John clearly states that Christ is the living Word of God, and you can't pick and chose a few books of the Bible to believe in, and then say you believe in true Christ. There is only one true Christ, and that is the Christ revealed to us from Genesis-Revelation. There are no in betweens.

NightWatchman
Jul 25th 2008, 07:01 AM
Mathew 7:14. "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Christ doesn't say that many will find salvation, but that few will find it.

Agreed. It appeared that you were saying this out of your own knowledge.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 07:16 AM
Agreed. It appeared that you were saying this out of your own knowledge.

In a sense I am.

I am saying it out of my knowledge of scripture, which is the only authority that matters.

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 10:52 AM
Sure I would love to join your little group tomorrow at lunch. Is their someplace where we meet here on the board or is this something that I do on my own from my home.


No place special, just go into your 'prayer closet' whenever you have a moment today and pray for His glory and for one another....

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 12:13 PM
God is so good.... As you may have remembered, my mom was at death's door with 3 very bad heart valves a few month's back and both my mom and dad came to live with us back is March, for she was so weak, she could barely stand without being out of breath....

But God.... But God, for whom we were stating thy will be done, we were prepared for Him taking her home to be with Him, or for a miracle, and God blessed us with a miracle.... It is such a miracle that both mom and dad are able to move back to their own home and my mother now walks unassisted again.... Did I say God is good yet?

What a blessing it has been to my family and I to see God working within my mother's life; spent great amounts of time talking, reading and praying with her and dad about our Savior, to help them through the tears of prayer and submission - and seeing their tears turned into tears of joy, that through the hands of the surgeon and her 2nd open heart surgery, God has gifted her more time on this earth, and not only time, but able to again eat, breath and walk as she did a year ago... we are soooooo blessed, words cannot begin to describe the grace and gratitude, along with joy....

But enough about me


How about you?Ah... just something else to have a hoot and holler PRAISE THE LORD fit about! Glad to hear it man... really glad. And yeah... God's VERY GOOD! :)

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 12:27 PM
So what amount of sin constitutes "turning your back on God?"

Do I need to sleep with a man 5 times, 10 times, 20 times? How far is too far before I've turned my back?



Then the same question stands: how many deeds do I need to commit before my back is officially turned on Him?Well... are you just trying to put God to test here? I mean seriously... what sort of question is this and what in the world (worldly it is) do you think a question like this proves? Don't be so flippant with sin. That's a dangerous game to play and I promise you that God finds no humor in the question. Sin is sin. To say stuff like this honestly is to say that sin is okay.

Yeah... you didn't say that but truth... SURE YOU DID. You say one time... two maybe... perhaps 3. You'll find no such reasoning or logic in the Scripture. Goodness... be careful with the philosophical stuff. This is the danger of it.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 12:28 PM
Yes, and the fact remains that despite their actions and words, only that one knows if they are saved or not. Yes, we can talk about fruit etc but only God knows the heart. I'm a firm believer that only one person can be sure of their salvation and that is that person alone.We all know what sin is and we could even tell someone that they are living in sin but we cannot tell them if they are saved or not. The only one who knows are themselves.

I'm of the opinion that an apostate was never saved and is one who teaches false doctrine. I think of the story in the gospels when Jesus told the Pharisees in Matt. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

You'll run into a problem with that Scripturally if you read it for what it is saying.

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;

This is talking about blood bought folks. No real way to ignore that very major point.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 12:30 PM
Well, yes and NO. That is like saying to be saved you must believe in Christ + race +finish+endure+stand fast + Do all YOU CAN and only then can YOU save YOU!
Peter's here! :kiss:
Can't help it! I gotta rib ya! Where have ya been? In another thread I guess!Well now... if you are one of those that believe that man has absolutely nothing to do with anything and therefore they get a robotic pass if they are chosen and a robotic go to hell card if they are not chosen... then I can understand your reasoning.

And hey... ribbing is good. Rib away! :D

grptinHisHand
Jul 25th 2008, 12:44 PM
Just jumping back in here, with a prayer for any weak, or confused Christians who will read this thread,
or just parts of it
who may be misled!

Dear Lord, protect Your people from misunderstanding Your Word or this discussion.
Amen :pray:

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 01:12 PM
Since you agree with me, then what are you confused about? Thanks.

My mistake...My apologies....Thanks

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 01:54 PM
Yes, and the fact remains that despite their actions and words, only that one knows if they are saved or not. Yes, we can talk about fruit etc but only God knows the heart. I'm a firm believer that only one person can be sure of their salvation and that is that person alone.We all know what sin is and we could even tell someone that they are living in sin but we cannot tell them if they are saved or not. The only one who knows are themselves.


Yes, I agree with you. Only God does know the heart of man. But we are not talking about knowing the heart of man here. We are talking about knowing Jesus Christ Our Lord And Savior Personally here. When I last look Jesus told us that He and only He was the Way, and the Truth, and the Light, and that No man got to the Father unless they went through Him. I don't need to look at somebodies heart to see if they know Jesus personally or not.


I'm of the opinion that an apostate was never saved and is one who teaches false doctrine.

Well you are half right. They will and do teach false doctrine. These apostates (false teaches) have been around for a very long long time. And they are doing nothing more but picking up more speed. Paul talks about in 1st Cor 10:1-11, how the majority of the Israelites became apostates. In Jude 1:5 Jude writes, "I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed no." These words by Jude go perfectly with what is written in Hebrews 3:7-4:11. If you read and study the verse from Jude 1:5 and Hebrews 3:7-4:11 and 1st Cor 10:1-11, you will come to find out that all the writers are talking about the same people.

I don't know who gave you your info, but they need to study a little more.

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 01:56 PM
No place special, just go into your 'prayer closet' whenever you have a moment today and pray for His glory and for one another....


Good enough, Thank you.

I'll be there.:)

apothanein kerdos
Jul 25th 2008, 02:09 PM
Yes, unless you repent and turn from your sin according to scripture.

Ah, so assume Bob is in a car wreck. Bob HATES the other person for running into him. Unfortunately for Bob, there is internal bleeding within him and he dies on the scene. Did Bob go to Hell?


Well... are you just trying to put God to test here? I mean seriously... what sort of question is this and what in the world (worldly it is) do you think a question like this proves? Don't be so flippant with sin. That's a dangerous game to play and I promise you that God finds no humor in the question. Sin is sin. To say stuff like this honestly is to say that sin is okay.

Yeah... you didn't say that but truth... SURE YOU DID. You say one time... two maybe... perhaps 3. You'll find no such reasoning or logic in the Scripture. Goodness... be careful with the philosophical stuff. This is the danger of it.

Good job avoiding the question :thumbsup:

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 02:16 PM
Ah, so assume Bob is in a car wreck. Bob HATES the other person for running into him. Unfortunately for Bob, there is internal bleeding within him and he dies on the scene. Did Bob go to Hell?I see... so let's play silly scenarios? If Bob hated in his heart then Bob dies in his sin then Bob goes to hell. Bees knees Louise... am I speaking a language hard to understand?




Good job avoiding the question :thumbsup:Uh... I avoided it by saying sin is sin? Alrighty then. :rolleyes:

apothanein kerdos
Jul 25th 2008, 02:18 PM
I see... so let's play silly scenarios? If Bob hated in his heart then Bob dies in his sin then Bob goes to hell.

Then wouldn't 99% (or close to) proclaimed Christians go to Hell considering sin takes place in the heart and not necessarily in the deed?

What if you were to die 5 minutes from now and God informed you that the way you handle people is less than admirable and lacks grace? What if He informed you that it was a sin to do this? Would you be fine with enduring Hell for it?

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 02:19 PM
Ah, so assume Bob is in a car wreck. Bob HATES the other person for running into him. Unfortunately for Bob, there is internal bleeding within him and he dies on the scene. Did Bob go to Hell?


I don't know to be honest with you. I'm not Bob, and I'm not God, and that is the best answer I can give you.
Any other answer would be just an opinion, and everyone has one of those.;)


Good job avoiding the question :thumbsup:

I don't think he avoided your question. He just basically told you in a nice why that your should not play with fire or you will end up getting burnt. That's all.

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 02:22 PM
What if you were to die 5 minutes from now and God informed you that the way you handle people is less than admirable and lacks grace? What if He informed you that it was a sin to do this? Would you be fine with enduring Hell for it?

Would you being a Christian?

apothanein kerdos
Jul 25th 2008, 02:23 PM
I don't know to be honest with you. I'm not Bob, and I'm not God, and that is the best answer I can give you.
Any other answer would be just an opinion, and everyone has one of those.;)


Then your belief is highly inconsistent. You say we can lose our salvation, that one sin can do it, but when presented with a scenario all of a sudden you clam up and say, "Eh, I don't know." Either sin causes us to go to Hell or is forgiven in spite of ourselves (if covered by the blood). Either Bob is going to Heaven or he's going to Hell; there really is no "I don't know" in this scenario.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 25th 2008, 02:24 PM
Would you being a Christian?

Would I be fine with going to Hell? Of course not - this would make God the biggest liar in the history of the world.

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 02:26 PM
Would I be fine with going to Hell? Of course not - this would make God the biggest liar in the history of the world.

Then I guess you answered your own question then;)

apothanein kerdos
Jul 25th 2008, 02:29 PM
Then I guess you answered your own question then;)

Yes - we are covered under the blood and can, in no way, lose our salvation. If we are truly saved then we simply cannot go to Hell - no matter what we do.

My point, however, is that those who hold to the belief we can lose our salvation - aside from adding works into the salvation mix - simply have to accept that fact that they'll probably end up in Hell, just like everyone else.

Unless they're lucky enough to lose consciousness before dying and are able to repent that second before losing consciousness, they will most likely end up in Hell.

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 02:32 PM
Then your belief is highly inconsistent. You say we can lose our salvation, that one sin can do it, but when presented with a scenario all of a sudden you clam up and say, "Eh, I don't know." Either sin causes us to go to Hell or is forgiven in spite of ourselves (if covered by the blood). Either Bob is going to Heaven or he's going to Hell; there really is no "I don't know" in this scenario.

Look, I'm not going to sit here and play checkers with you. Sin is Sin. There is no Sin that is greater then another. If Bob did not repent of his sin and he had hate in his heart when he took his last breath, well then according to scripture yes, he went straight to hell.

But, if Bob repented of his sin before he took that last breath. Well then my friend he no longer had hate in his heart and he did not go to hell. Nobody can repent of there sin and have hate in there heart.

Have a nice day

apothanein kerdos
Jul 25th 2008, 02:34 PM
Look, I'm not going to sit here and play checkers with you. Sin is Sin. There is no Sin that is greater then another. If Bob did not repent of his sin and he had hate in his heart when he took his last breath, well then according to scripture yes, he went straight to hell.

But, if Bob repented of his sin before he took that last breath. Well then my friend he no longer had hate in his heart and he did not go to hell. Nobody can repent of there sin and have hate in there heart.

Have a nice day

Then are you willing to admit that you - and me, and project peter, and most all other Christians - will most likely end up in Hell?

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 02:40 PM
The big dog [me] is feeling some slack in his chain this morning so I'll jump in as to say that obedience is a result of God's saving grace of faith in one's life and not that by being obedient saves you.... for no one can add to their salvation by any deed. [But also read that obedience is an earmark to men of one's holy calling and thus obedience along with repentance and humility are part of living a saved life - as God has prepared before hand to walk in - but these 'works' do not save anyone]

The OP states can one who see NOSAS as a good doctrine that saves a man and/or one who sees OSAS as a good doctrine that saves a man -- and the anwser is no to both for knowing either doctrine as 'right' does not qualify anyone the right to possess salvation - for salvation is of the Lord.

So the best conclusion is that of those God has called to faith in Christ Jesus by His grace, He has given some to see NOSAS as their doctrine, and others OSAS as their doctrine of understanding, but neither doctrine brings either person salvation, for that is the work of His Spirit.

For man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God and through God and God alone. [lest any man should boast] For His glory and our benefit.

Back to my last call of the morning and then to prayer...

apothanein kerdos
Jul 25th 2008, 02:43 PM
The big dog [me] is feeling some slack in his chain this morning so I'll jump in as to say that obedience is a result of God's saving grace of faith in one's life and not that by being obedient saves you.... for no one can add to their salvation by any deed. [But also read that obedience is an earmark to men of one's holy calling and thus obedience along with repentance and humility are part of living a saved life - as God has prepared before hand to walk in - but these 'works' do not save anyone]

The OP states can one who see NOSAS as a good doctrine that saves a man and/or one who sees OSAS as a good doctrine that saves a man -- and the anwser is no to both for knowing either doctrine as 'right' does not qualify anyone the right to possess salvation - for salvation is of the Lord.

So the best conclusion is that of those God has called to faith in Christ Jesus by His grace, He has given some to see NOSAS as their doctrine, and others OSAS as their doctrine of understanding, but neither doctrine brings either person salvation, for that is the work of His Spirit.

For man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God and through God and god alone. [lest any man should boast] For His glory and our benefit.

Back to my last call of the morning and then to prayer...

Exactly!

This is why I tend to use the term perseverance of the saints rather than "once saved always saved." The former gives the idea that I can get my grace card stamped and go out living however I want. Perseverance, however, teaches that the Spirit indwells me and that though I will still sin, I am covered by the blood and will be convicted of my sin, thus desiring to repent. I cannot go to Hell for any sin I commit, but I can certainly live Hell on this earth when I sin.

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 02:45 PM
Yes - we are covered under the blood and can, in no way, lose our salvation. If we are truly saved then we simply cannot go to Hell - no matter what we do.

Scripture does not support this.


My point, however, is that those who hold to the belief we can lose our salvation - aside from adding works into the salvation mix - simply have to accept that fact that they'll probably end up in Hell, just like everyone else.



There is a chance I could turn my back on God at some point in my life and end up in Hell yes. I'm not that bold. But as for right now I can say that I would not be going to hell.


Unless they're lucky enough to lose consciousness before dying and are able to repent that second before losing consciousness, they will most likely end up in Hell.

Yes unless we are blessed (I don't believe in luck) enough to regain consciousness, and we would be living a sinful life, we would die in our sins and go to hell.

So whats your point?

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 25th 2008, 02:48 PM
Exactly!

This is why I tend to use the term perseverance of the saints rather than "once saved always saved." The former gives the idea that I can get my grace card stamped and go out living however I want. Perseverance, however, teaches that the Spirit indwells me and that though I will still sin, I am covered by the blood and will be convicted of my sin, thus desiring to repent. I cannot go to Hell for any sin I commit, but I can certainly live Hell on this earth when I sin.


I see agreement with what you have conveyed above.

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 02:48 PM
Then are you willing to admit that you - and me, and project peter, and most all other Christians - will most likely end up in Hell?

No, because we have Love in our heart....not hate as you said Bob did.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 25th 2008, 02:49 PM
Scripture does not support this.

That we're covered by grace? I'll state right now that if it is possible for us to lose our salvation simply by sinning - in thought or deed - I don't see any point to being a Christian. It ceases being any better or any more unique (or true) than any other religion out there.

I say that because the Scriptures are full of passages that discuss how we are covered by Christ and not saved by any works. You're teaching that we're saved by works - the grace of God is below us in your belief. We have power over God.


There is a chance I could turn my back on God at some point in my life and end up in Hell yes. I'm not that bold. But as for right now I can say that I would not be going to hell.

You turn your back every hour of every day. Face the fact - according to your belief you're going to Hell.

And if you come out and say that you don't sin then you're lying and hence, going to Hell.



Yes unless we are blessed (I don't believe in luck) enough to regain consciousness, and we would be living a sinful life, we would die in our sins and go to hell.

We worship a pathetic God then who doesn't even know how to administer grace.


So whats your point?

That you're going to Hell, along with me. There's a very slim chance either of us will make it.

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 02:55 PM
The big dog [me] is feeling some slack in his chain this morning so I'll jump in as to say that obedience is a result of God's saving grace of faith in one's life and not that by being obedient saves you.... for no one can add to their salvation by any deed. [But also read that obedience is an earmark to men of one's holy calling and thus obedience along with repentance and humility are part of living a saved life - as God has prepared before hand to walk in - but these 'works' do not save anyone]

The OP states can one who see NOSAS as a good doctrine that saves a man and/or one who sees OSAS as a good doctrine that saves a man -- and the anwser is no to both for knowing either doctrine as 'right' does not qualify anyone the right to possess salvation - for salvation is of the Lord.

So the best conclusion is that of those God has called to faith in Christ Jesus by His grace, He has given some to see NOSAS as their doctrine, and others OSAS as their doctrine of understanding, but neither doctrine brings either person salvation, for that is the work of His Spirit.

For man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in God and through God and God alone. [lest any man should boast] For His glory and our benefit.

Back to my last call of the morning and then to prayer...

Excellent post :thumbsup: It is for this reason that I have no preference to either or. I'm just a man trying to finish a race for Our Lord.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 25th 2008, 03:01 PM
Here's something else to add:

What if we do need to speak in tongues in order to be saved? What if we are really deceived and we do need to partake in the sacrament? What if the Roman Catholics are right about having a priest forgive us?

I know, we can all bring up Scriptures countering these beliefs - but the other sides can bring up Scriptures countering our beliefs as well. What if we've just misinterpreted these passages and not doing these things actually constitute a sin?

Under the belief that any sin can cause us to lose our salvation, almost everyone partaking in this discussion is going to Hell if we are wrong on even some pretty minor issues.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:16 PM
Then wouldn't 99% (or close to) proclaimed Christians go to Hell considering sin takes place in the heart and not necessarily in the deed?

What if you were to die 5 minutes from now and God informed you that the way you handle people is less than admirable and lacks grace? What if He informed you that it was a sin to do this? Would you be fine with enduring Hell for it?If God told me that then I would immediately repent and five minutes doesn't matter. ;) We done with the goofy scenarios now and do you actually want to talk about Scripture or would you rather stay the psycho-babble stuff? Either way I'm cool with but I much prefer talking Scripture which is actually truth as opposed to wondering.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:17 PM
Yes - we are covered under the blood and can, in no way, lose our salvation. If we are truly saved then we simply cannot go to Hell - no matter what we do.

My point, however, is that those who hold to the belief we can lose our salvation - aside from adding works into the salvation mix - simply have to accept that fact that they'll probably end up in Hell, just like everyone else.

Unless they're lucky enough to lose consciousness before dying and are able to repent that second before losing consciousness, they will most likely end up in Hell.
Question for you. Why do you so dogmatically defend sin?

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:19 PM
Yes - we are covered under the blood and can, in no way, lose our salvation. If we are truly saved then we simply cannot go to Hell - no matter what we do.

My point, however, is that those who hold to the belief we can lose our salvation - aside from adding works into the salvation mix - simply have to accept that fact that they'll probably end up in Hell, just like everyone else.

Unless they're lucky enough to lose consciousness before dying and are able to repent that second before losing consciousness, they will most likely end up in Hell.
When are you "truly saved?"

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:20 PM
Exactly!

This is why I tend to use the term perseverance of the saints rather than "once saved always saved." The former gives the idea that I can get my grace card stamped and go out living however I want. Perseverance, however, teaches that the Spirit indwells me and that though I will still sin, I am covered by the blood and will be convicted of my sin, thus desiring to repent. I cannot go to Hell for any sin I commit, but I can certainly live Hell on this earth when I sin.
So... contrary to the gospel... you can be immoral and still inherit the kingdom and not be judged by the Law?

fewarechosen
Jul 25th 2008, 03:20 PM
What are you getting all bent out of shape about........
I never said I knew he went to hell and neither did Ron, all we said is what the Bible said and that is all we said.

Now my friend if you have a problem with the scripture, take it up with God.....not us.

not bent at all, it seems your getting worked up

where do you get me having a problem with scripture ?

i jsut say we dont know the outcome of anyman we cant judge what happend, we dont know who repented of what.

so please dont think i have a problem with scripture, nothing i said goes against scripture

fewarechosen
Jul 25th 2008, 03:28 PM
some people are gonna die and be thinking im glad im not sinning right now.

boy are they gonna be in for a suprise when they find out the reward for pride

lord i did works in your name, i did this i did that

WHO ARE YOU

Friend of I AM
Jul 25th 2008, 03:30 PM
Here's something else to add:

What if we do need to speak in tongues in order to be saved? What if we are really deceived and we do need to partake in the sacrament? What if the Roman Catholics are right about having a priest forgive us?

I know, we can all bring up Scriptures countering these beliefs - but the other sides can bring up Scriptures countering our beliefs as well. What if we've just misinterpreted these passages and not doing these things actually constitute a sin?

Under the belief that any sin can cause us to lose our salvation, almost everyone partaking in this discussion is going to Hell if we are wrong on even some pretty minor issues.

Agree with you Apoth. Much of life's battles are caused by petty and minor grievances(implied or otherwise) People are so quick to take offense, and label everything that goes against what they believe as inherently wrong and condemn one another based on the understanding of God and his word that has been imparted to someone. I think we've all been guilty of doing this from time to time. Ideally, I think we all should be seeking to know the will of God in our life, and the difference between the spirit of Truth and the spirit of error. However, there are times when there may be no real error in one's testimony, however, there might be a level of understanding that causes the miscommunication gap between believers.

Back to the original discussion. IMO, no one really has the ability to make the determination of who's saved and who isn't saved based on anything they've read within the scriptures. I think the bible makes it pretty clear that only "God" knows who are his, so any further debate on the topic of "who's not saved" becomes very silly, as one is implying they have access to the book of life(which only Christ himself has access to).

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 03:32 PM
That we're covered by grace? I'll state right now that if it is possible for us to lose our salvation simply by sinning - in thought or deed - I don't see any point to being a Christian. It ceases being any better or any more unique (or true) than any other religion out there.

I say that because the Scriptures are full of passages that discuss how we are covered by Christ and not saved by any works. You're teaching that we're saved by works - the grace of God is below us in your belief. We have power over God.


I never said that we were not saved by Grace. I also do not believe in religion. I also never said that we were saved by works either. But I did say this,


My friend, you are here today and gone tomorrow. We do not know what we do from one day to the next. We live out our Salvation daily. We walk in it and we talk in it. If we are true believers we understand this because the scriptures tell us this. This is where our Love for our Lord comes into play, better known as our Love walk. We do this not as a form of work, but as a form of Love to our Lord, who shed his blood for us. It is a form of humbleness on our part, not work as some seem to think. This is why Paul tells us in 1st Cor 6 that our bodies are not our own, but we were bought with a price, and that we are to Glorify God with it.


You turn your back every hour of every day. Face the fact - according to your belief you're going to Hell.

And if you come out and say that you don't sin then you're lying and hence, going to Hell.


I do not recall saying that I never sin either. I know I turn my back on God everyday. I do recall saying this though,


Now this does not mean that we are to be perfect either, but it does mean that we are to strive to be just like Christ. This is where the Grace of God comes into play because we can't be perfect. That's why Jesus gave us the commandment that He did to Love one another as he has Loved us in John 13:34-35. Not so we would be perfect at it, but so we would strive for it each and everyday. For God's Glory, not ours.


We worship a pathetic God then who doesn't even know how to administer grace.


If you do not repent of your sins you do die in your sins, scripture supports that. Read 1st John 1:9.


That you're going to Hell, along with me. There's a very slim chance either of us will make it.

It's never to late. We all have until we take that very last breath.

Friend of I AM
Jul 25th 2008, 03:33 PM
some people are gonna die and be thinking im glad im not sinning right now.

boy are they gonna be in for a suprise when they find out the reward for pride

lord i did works in your name, i did this i did that

WHO ARE YOU

How can anyone really know what's going to happen? No one knows the future but God. That's why Jesus said to stop worrying. Light came into the world, and exposed that all the works of man were inherently evil. Thus, our works/understanding/knowledge by itself only brings us to the point of death. Only God's grace/mercy/love can bring us to life. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't continue to do good works, just saying that those guys who were calling "lord, lord" weren't doing works of God, they were doing dead works of men. The only work of God that will save is faith, which is given to us by the grace of God.

IN Christ,

Stephen

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:34 PM
some people are gonna die and be thinking im glad im not sinning right now.

boy are they gonna be in for a suprise when they find out the reward for pride

lord i did works in your name, i did this i did that

WHO ARE YOU
And many more will die thinking... I believe therefore it's all good! They will die in their sin.

So you're point? Self righteousness is what it is and there is a price for it. But even that doesn't negate the fact that if you die in sin (self-righteousness is just that) you die in your sin and spend eternity in hell.

I will ask you the same I have asked others today. Why do you so dogmatically defend sinning?

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 03:35 PM
some people are gonna die and be thinking im glad im not sinning right now.

boy are they gonna be in for a suprise when they find out the reward for pride

lord i did works in your name, i did this i did that

WHO ARE YOU

man how true that answer is;)

apothanein kerdos
Jul 25th 2008, 03:35 PM
If God told me that then I would immediately repent and five minutes doesn't matter. We done with the goofy scenarios now and do you actually want to talk about Scripture or would you rather stay the psycho-babble stuff? Either way I'm cool with but I much prefer talking Scripture which is actually truth as opposed to wondering.

It's not psycho-babble at all. What it provides is that your INTERPRETATION of Scripture (or, and I sadly have to ask this with all honesty, do you believe you're infallible) doesn't sync up with real life situations. This either means we're almost all going to Hell, or your interpretation is erroneous.

I have no problem discussing the Scriptures - my problem is when haughty people post a barrage of Scriptures with no study behind it, no exegesis, and when I take the time to respond to it they merely come back and post another uniformed and unintelligent barrage. That's why I use the scenarios (which are real life scenarios), so as to avoid such pointless frustration.


Question for you. Why do you so dogmatically defend sin?

Cut it out Peter - there is no need for jabs like that.

I could just as easily say why do you deny God, why do you hate Christ, or why do you ignore the Cross. Or legitimately ask why you defend a pagan belief.

Secondly, I've made it clear I'm not defending sin. For whatever reason you just want to stick to your straw-man arguments though, so why even take the time to discuss it with you?

When are you "truly saved?"

When we're glorified (e.g. after death). Hence the term "perseverance of the saints." Salvation is tri-part - justification, sanctification, and glorification. We are redeemed and forgiven at the point of justification. This begins the process of salvation. It just so happens, however, that God begins the work in us and completes the work in us - we cannot lose what is not ours to throw away. Thus, we are being saved this side of eternity.


So... contrary to the gospel... you can be immoral and still inherit the kingdom and not be judged by the Law?

Yes and it's not contrary to the Gospel.

The fact is - had you actually responded to what I said instead of your beautiful straw-man that you can't see past - when one is saved one doesn't want to be immoral. One [i]can't[/] lead a lifestyle of immorality because it is simply too contrary to the new creation we have become. We can have lapses into it, but God will be faithful and remove us from these lapses.

Friend of I AM
Jul 25th 2008, 03:40 PM
I do not recall saying that I never sin either. I know I turn my back on God everyday. I do recall saying this though,


I don't know your walk, but I can say that we need to be careful about labeling every little minor thing we do on a day to day basis as us turning our backs on God. We are human, and yes we are prone to make mistakes. But as you said above God's grace does give us a covering for all of the mistakes we do make. I don't think God, nor do I think those who love God are inherently turning their backs on him each time they make a mistake - these things just come with being in any relationship. There are times when people will say things that are not exactly what you like to hear, but that doesn't mean you've left that person out in the cold and are not going to help them or have stopped loving them.

I think we need to get past thinking that our lives and relationship with God and others are so fickle to the point of God turning his back on us the minute we do one thing that is wrong. If this were truly the case, God would have turned his back on mankind from the onset of the initial fall and allowed men to be given over to death. We know through the scriptures, that this isn't the case.

In Christ,

Stephen

Friend of I AM
Jul 25th 2008, 03:42 PM
man how true that answer is;)

True if one only keeps a record of rights and wrong of everything they've done in life. In doing so, they've essentially denied the fact that God's grace was ever at anytime active within their life, and insinuated that their works were the original cause as to why they were saved.

fewarechosen
Jul 25th 2008, 03:43 PM
And many more will die thinking... I believe therefore it's all good! They will die in their sin.

So you're point? Self righteousness is what it is and there is a price for it. But even that doesn't negate the fact that if you die in sin (self-righteousness is just that) you die in your sin and spend eternity in hell.

I will ask you the same I have asked others today. Why do you so dogmatically defend sinning?

not defending sin at all somehow you assume i am , i was pointing out another sin that is worthy of hell fire

all sin is of the devil - dont do it.

but understand many are committing sins they dont even know about, yet

so now how am i dogmatically defending sin ?
or is that you just assuming i am

im saying sin goes wayyyyyyy deeper than most even realize. so i am totally stressing how damned one can get through sin.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:50 PM
It's not psycho-babble at all. What it provides is that your INTERPRETATION of Scripture (or, and I sadly have to ask this with all honesty, do you believe you're infallible) doesn't sync up with real life situations. This either means we're almost all going to Hell, or your interpretation is erroneous. Uh... red truck! What do you think Jesus meant when he said "many are called, few are chosen? " Or that whole narrow is the gate and FEW find it. YES... most will go to hell. Don;t matter a lick what they claim or think. ;)


I have no problem discussing the Scriptures - my problem is when haughty people post a barrage of Scriptures with no study behind it, no exegesis, and when I take the time to respond to it they merely come back and post another uniformed and unintelligent barrage. That's why I use the scenarios (which are real life scenarios), so as to avoid such pointless frustration.Well... I have TONS of study behind it and yet seen nothing of you on the passages. Folks that have been here long enough to read my 20000 plus post have seen it. Disagree or not they have seen it. So point... I don;t care about the goofy scenarios which mean nothing and the world has tossed that nonsense at folks since the beginning. What does Scripture say because ultimately that is all that matters.


Cut it out Peter - there is no need for jabs like that. It is not a jab at all. It is what you are doing is it not? Why not instead say what I say as well as Scripture. Stop sinning as you ought. It isn't that hard to say and it is ABSOLUTELY biblical is it not?




I could just as easily say why do you deny God, why do you hate Christ, or why do you ignore the Cross. Or legitimately ask why you defend a pagan belief. You could easily say it but that doesn't make it biblical. ;)




Secondly, I've made it clear I'm not defending sin. For whatever reason you just want to stick to your straw-man arguments though, so why even take the time to discuss it with you?Yet here you are defending sin... regardless of what you say. ;)



When we're glorified (e.g. after death). Hence the term "perseverance of the saints." Salvation is tri-part - justification, sanctification, and glorification. We are redeemed and forgiven at the point of justification. This begins the process of salvation. It just so happens, however, that God begins the work in us and completes the work in us - we cannot lose what is not ours to throw away. Thus, we are being saved this side of eternity. Where is this "tri-part" stuff taught in Scripture. It isn't. You are simply saved, by faith. The actuality of that salvation comes when you have endured to the end. I have already posted Scripture on that and there is more. But so far... no one wants to respond to the few I have already posted. ;)



Yes and it's not contrary to the Gospel. Really? So let's reason together. Apparently you have some revelation that Paul missed. Here is what he wrote.

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

Why should your words trump Paul's? So far you've not made the case for that.


The fact is - had you actually responded to what I said instead of your beautiful straw-man that you can't see past - when one is saved one doesn't want to be immoral. One [i]can't[/] lead a lifestyle of immorality because it is simply too contrary to the new creation we have become. We can have lapses into it, but God will be faithful and remove us from these lapses.Ah... I see. The robot man again! Where does Scripture tell us this? Does it not instead WARN us against stuff like this? If we had a iron clad guarantee such as what you say... there would be NO need for warnings in Scripture. We'd believe and we'd be. Bible doesn't say that though. No need to be told ENDURE... STAND FAST... HOLD FIRM... none of that needed written if we were guaranteed to ENDURE... STAND FAST... HOLD FIRM... etc. ;)

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 03:52 PM
I don't know your walk, but I can say that we need to be careful about labeling every little minor thing we do on a day to day basis as us turning our backs on God. We are human, and yes we are prone to make mistakes. But as you said above God's grace does give us a covering for all of the mistakes we do make. I don't think God, nor I don't think those who love God are inherently turning their backs on him each time they make a mistake - these things just come with being in any relationship. There are times when people will say things that are not exactly what you like to hear, but that doesn't mean you've left that person out in the cold and are not going to help them or have stopped loving them.

I think we need to get past thinking that our lives and relationship with God and others are so fickle to the point of God turning his back on us the minute we do one thing that is wrong. If this were truly the case, God would have turned his back on mankind from the onset of the initial fall and allowed men to be given over to death. We know through the scriptures, that this isn't the case.

In Christ,

Stephen

God can't turn His back on us because of His Love. His Love is indescribable. Our Love has more wholes in it then a swiss cheese. We turn our back on God on a daily basis. We are Natural Born Sinners. This is why we live under God's Grace. Without God's Grace we would not stand a chance. This is why we need to pray each and everyday for the forgiveness of sins. This is also why the Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. Because we are Natural Born Sinners who Sin constantly.

Dave

Friend of I AM
Jul 25th 2008, 03:57 PM
God can't turn His back on us because of His Love. His Love is indescribable. Our Love has more wholes in it then a swiss cheese. We turn our back on God on a daily basis. We are Natural Born Sinners. This is why we live under God's Grace. Without God's Grace we would not stand a chance. This is why we need to pray each and everyday for the forgiveness of sins. This is also why the Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. Because we are Natural Born Sinners who Sin constantly.

Dave

Yes I know. I'm just saying that everyday we live is not a day we should have constant or excessive worry about what we are going to do right or wrong in God's eyes. We do the best we can with what we've been given each day, and I think that is all that God expects of us. Yes we should pray and continue to ask for forgiveness each day, and yes we should be aware that God's grace is the only thing that is keeping us going each day. But as the Apostle Pauls states, we should be conscience of nothing before the appointed time and have faith in ourselves that we are doing right before God, as oppossed to us doing what's wrong in his eyes.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 03:58 PM
not defending sin at all somehow you assume i am , i was pointing out another sin that is worthy of hell fire

all sin is of the devil - dont do it.

but understand many are committing sins they dont even know about, yet

so now how am i dogmatically defending sin ?
or is that you just assuming i am

im saying sin goes wayyyyyyy deeper than most even realize. so i am totally stressing how damned one can get through sin.
What sin does a believer not know about?

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 04:00 PM
True if one only keeps a record of rights and wrong of everything they've done in life. In doing so, they've essentially denied the fact that God's grace was ever at anytime active within their life, and insinuated that their works were the original cause as to why they were saved.

True, but I know why I was saved. And no one has invented a book thick enough to keep track of all my wrongs. As far as my rights go, that book would be very very thin. Cause I do nothing. Unless it be for the Glory of God

fewarechosen
Jul 25th 2008, 04:06 PM
What sin does a believer not know about?

when you first came to god did you have full knowledge of all sin ?

or did your knowledge of your wrongs grow ?

we as chrsitians grow, hence we start out on milk and so on.

so our knowledge of sin grows just like knowledge of other things.

so pick whatever sin you want, different people dont see different flaws within themselves, and in so doing they dont see the sin

as we mature more things become evident

Friend of I AM
Jul 25th 2008, 04:07 PM
True, but I know why I was saved. And no one has invented a book thick enough to keep track of all my wrongs. As far as my rights go, that book would be very very thin. Cause I do nothing. Unless it be for the Glory of God

I think that's everyone. In fact, I have no book which contains all of the good that I've done as the light of Christ has exposed all of my works(aside from his work of faith through his grace working through me) to be inherently evil. Thus, God has already stated that every work we do without his grace is evil, and why we are soo much in need of it. Our works alone are as filthy rags before God. When you think about it this is very logical. What can we really do, that God can't do infinitely better?

In Christ,

Stephen

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 04:32 PM
I think that's everyone. In fact, I have no book which contains all of the good that I've done as the light of Christ has exposed all of my works(aside from his work of faith through his grace working through me) to be inherently evil. Thus, God has already stated that every work we do without his grace is evil, and why we are soo much in need of it. Our works alone are as filthy rags before God. When you think about it this is very logical. What can we really do, that God can't do infinitely better?

In Christ,

Stephen

You said it brother, there is nothing that we can do, that God can't do better.


Yes I know. I'm just saying that everyday we live is not a day we should have constant or excessive worry about what we are going to do right or wrong in God's eyes. We do the best we can with what we've been given each day, and I think that is all that God expects of us. Yes we should pray and continue to ask for forgiveness each day, and yes we should be aware that God's grace is the only thing that is keeping us going each day. But as the Apostle Pauls states, we should be conscience of nothing before the appointed time and have faith in ourselves that we are doing right before God, as oppossed to us doing what's wrong in his eyes.

Agreed:)

grptinHisHand
Jul 25th 2008, 04:33 PM
Back to the OP. Can both be saved? It isn't necessary for us all to believe 'exactly the same' on every issue, is it? God saves us 'by grace, through faith'. Isn't it belief that Jesus is the Way the Truth, and the LIFE? (Which, by the way, often gets misquoted to be 'Light'). see John 14:6 - all translations.
By repenting, confessing, accepting Him as Savior and Lord? This I believe.
I also feel that when we continually argue, which is what has begun to happen here, we confuse new Christians, babes in Christ. :cry:

May God help us to lift one another up in prayer. And help us edify one another. See Romans 14:9
Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
:hug: In Christian love,
g

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 04:38 PM
when you first came to god did you have full knowledge of all sin ?

or did your knowledge of your wrongs grow ?

we as chrsitians grow, hence we start out on milk and so on.

so our knowledge of sin grows just like knowledge of other things.

so pick whatever sin you want, different people dont see different flaws within themselves, and in so doing they dont see the sin

as we mature more things become evidentWonderful! We agree. So now... the person who has that knowledge that such and such is sin?

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 05:30 PM
Prior to salvation, you are only convicted of one sin, unbelief. After salvation the Holy Spirit will convict you of all sorts of sins...

threebigrocks
Jul 25th 2008, 05:41 PM
True, but I know why I was saved. And no one has invented a book thick enough to keep track of all my wrongs. As far as my rights go, that book would be very very thin. Cause I do nothing. Unless it be for the Glory of God

If you are saved, why doesn't matter and neither does that big book of all the wrong stuff you have done. It's been erased, gone, far as east is from the west when you repented and gave your life up for yourself and gave it to Christ to Lord over. If you fall off the faith bandwagon, you need to get back on where you fell off.

If you say you still sin, but do nothing except it be for the glory of God, you've lost me there.

threebigrocks
Jul 25th 2008, 05:43 PM
Prior to salvation, you are only convicted of one sin, unbelief. After salvation the Holy Spirit will convict you of all sorts of sins...

What keeps us in unbelief? Does not conviction bring us a need, which is filled by Christ in order that we can be saved?

Joey Porter
Jul 25th 2008, 05:48 PM
What sin does a believer not know about?

Sorry to jump in out of nowhere, but there are TONS of sins that the believer doesn't know about. And the tricky part is, these sins are the types that the believer is blinded to because they mask themselves in righteousness.

Hypocrisy, self righteousness, beating our fellow servants, choking people with meat when they can only handle milk, etc. This is what Yahshua was talking about when He spoke of "the light inside becoming darkness."

All of these type of sins will bring much more severe judgment on a believer than will sexual immorality and other fleshly type of sins.

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 05:50 PM
The Bible say that Jesus had to go away so that the Holy Spirit could come. It goes on to say that when he gets here he will convict the world of sin, but what sin???

Hint: John 16:9

Friend of I AM
Jul 25th 2008, 05:51 PM
You know I think another interesting question to pose all is "Why would anyone not want both to be saved?" In my lifetime, I've gone through many struggles, and through them all I've come to the conclusion that the more hurt/pain that I go through, the more sympathetic I am of others when they experience the same sort of pain, and the more likely I am not to want others to have to experience that pain. Remember Jesus's words of "Father forgive them they know not what they do!"

Does not that same rationale still apply to those who lack our same level of understanding nowadays...or does everyone automatically think just because someone has a lack of understanding regarding a biblical concept, God should automatically condemn an individual? Interested in knowing all of your thoughts about this.

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 06:10 PM
Sorry to jump in out of nowhere, but there are TONS of sins that the believer doesn't know about. And the tricky part is, these sins are the types that the believer is blinded to because they mask themselves in righteousness.

Hypocrisy, self righteousness, beating our fellow servants, choking people with meat when they can only handle milk, etc. This is what Yahshua was talking about when He spoke of "the light inside becoming darkness."

All of these type of sins will bring much more severe judgment on a believer than will sexual immorality and other fleshly type of sins.Okay... so the hypocrite goes to the worse part of hell than the homosexual. Good. We agree. But then which part of that is the kingdom of God? Worse part or not as worse part of hell is still hell is it not?

As to the sins "believers" know or don't know... read on. I covered that I figure. :)

ProjectPeter
Jul 25th 2008, 06:12 PM
The Bible say that Jesus had to go away so that the Holy Spirit could come. It goes on to say that when he gets here he will convict the world of sin, but what sin???

Hint: John 16:9
Alright! That must be the only thing then? Right?

But then we know John also said this..

Revelation 21:6 And He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
7 "He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."


Notice that the highlighted word wasn't the ONLY thing mentioned. ;)

Friend of I AM
Jul 25th 2008, 06:12 PM
Okay... so the hypocrite goes to the worse part of hell than the homosexual. Good. We agree. But then which part of that is the kingdom of God? Worse part or not as worse part of hell is still hell is it not?

As to the sins "believers" know or don't know... read on. I covered that I figure. :)

I think the point being made though is that we all should be careful with making assumptions on who will go where based on our limited human knowledge, and understanding of how God applies his grace/mercy. We don't know who is going where, as we do not have access to the book of life.

In Christ,

Stephen

Friend of I AM
Jul 25th 2008, 06:16 PM
Alright! That must be the only thing then? Right?

But then we know John also said this..

Revelation 21:6 And He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
7 "He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."


Notice that the highlighted word wasn't the ONLY thing mentioned. ;)

Again though PP, the point being made is that you don't know who falls into those categories above, nor do you know who God has forgiven. If I'm really going to quote scripture, one would/should say that all men are indeed considered these things by God, as he has declared no one to be righteous in his sight save his son. What then are we left with? Well to be honest the only thing any of us are really left with is faith in Christ. Without him, then no one will get to see God.

Friend of I AM
Jul 25th 2008, 06:18 PM
You know I think another interesting question to pose all is "Why would anyone not want both to be saved?" In my lifetime, I've gone through many struggles, and through them all I've come to the conclusion that the more hurt/pain that I go through, the more sympathetic I am of others when they experience the same sort of pain, and the more likely I am not to want others to have to experience that pain. Remember Jesus's words of "Father forgive them they know not what they do!"

Does not that same rationale still apply to those who lack our same level of understanding nowadays...or does everyone automatically think just because someone has a lack of understanding regarding a biblical concept, God should automatically condemn an individual? Interested in knowing all of your thoughts about this.

Does anyone want to answer these questions?

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 06:38 PM
In my lifetime, I've gone through many struggles, and through them all I've come to the conclusion that the more hurt/pain that I go through, the more sympathetic I am of others when they experience the same sort of pain, and the more likely I am not to want others to have to experience that pain.

...and comfort others when in pain. VERY biblical. GREAT JOB!!!

2 Corinthians 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

DeafPosttrib
Jul 25th 2008, 06:46 PM
I would like to say something about this topic.

I do truly believe both are saved. I am Baptist. I have lot of friends who are Baptists. All believe in OSAS. I used to believe in OSAS for many years as Baptist. Till in year 2002, I departed OSAS doctrine, and I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying.

I know lot of Baptists who hold OSAS belief, their fruits are truly showing that they are actual saved. Not because of what they believe in the doctrine of OSAS. Because of their faithful toward Jesus Christ, as what they are serve the Lord right now. And their fruits showing that they actual walking in the light in their life that they are truly Christians.

I believe both of groups are truly saved. The basic of their faith and belief is by reply or depend upon Jesus Christ. Both do believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins. They both did confessed their sins to Jesus in their hearts seriously. More importantly, both are actual do follow Jesus in their life.

But, NOT all both groups would be already guaranteed go to heaven 100% by the time, they die. Some OSAS people will go hell. Some NOSAS people will go hell.

God don't care about their beliefs in the doctrines. God interests that all are seriously follow Him in the rlife unto till their death. And God interests that, everyone are walk in the light daily till they die.

I would like to tell you another examples of divisions among Christians upon issues of doctrine matters.

For example, there are division among Christians on rapture timing. Some Christians believe in pretrib, some Christians believe in prewrath, some Christians believe in posttrib. Which is right? Are all of them go to hell because of their wrong belief on rapture timing? No. More importantly, all of them do believe that, Jesus is coming again. That is the basic of fundamental doctrine as what they believe according to the Bible.

Also, there are divisions among Christians on millennial issues. Some Christians believe in premill, some Christians believe in amill, some Christians believe in postmill. Which one is right? Are all of them go to hell, because of their wrong belief on millennal? No. More importantly, all of them do believe that, Jesus is reign. Even, in the basic fundamental that, all of them truly believe Jesus will always be reigning in hsi power after old earth destroyed, His reign shall remain forever and ever. This is the basic fundamental of their beliefe according to the Bible saying so.

By the way, I do believe full-preterists are truly saved. Of course, I am aware that they believe Jesus' coming already fulfilled in year 70 A.D. , as they emphasis on Matthew 24. They intepreting Jesus' coming was fulfilled with spiritualized. I respect their interpreting, although, I stron disagree with their interpreting. Clearly, they do deny literal future physical and visibly coming of Christ according as what Bible saying. Are they go hell, because of theit deny Bible's teaching of future literal physical and visibly coming of Christ?

No. More importantly, that, many full-preterists do believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins. They do confessed their sins to Jesus in their heart. I believe many full-preterists are truly saved, because of their fruits.

And finally, debate on manuscripts and Bible translations. Many Baptists are KJV Onlyists. They saying, anyone who do not believe King James Verison is thr true inspiration Word of God, are not saved. According as what Dr. Peter Ruckman, and Late Dr. Jack Hyles said.

That is not true.

I was saved by read different version Bible myself. No one witness to me how to become saved. New English Version Bible caused me tremble and convicted in my heart, that I do not want go to the lake of fire, because Rev. 20:11-15 scared me. I understood what Rev. 20:11-15 talking about in NEV. It caused me to bow down and asked Jesus to forgive my sins, and accepted Him saved. I was saved on August 17, 1988 in my old bedroom, at my parent's house.

I do believe many Christians who read different Versions, are truly born again Christians.

I believe many versions are partially truly Word of God. Because of truths are shown in versions same with KJV.

I believe both groups of NKJVO & KJVO are truly saved. Because of what they believe version. More importantly that they UNDERSTAND the truths within versions about Jesus Christ, cross, hell, and heaven.

Now, I want to say something about two groupos of NOSAS and OSAS. I believe that, SOME of two groups will go to hell. No matter what their religions are. No matter what their beliefs on doctrines. The reason is that, some of them will go to hell, because of their practical life, if they are compromsing with both dark and light sides as they are continuially walking in them, then God would not accept them. Jesus tells us, we cannot serve two masters at same time. They MUST choose one side to serve, where they will ahead toward in their lifetime till their death. No matter what doctrines, they believe in, if they do practical walk in the dark(sins), their spiritual would be lead toward their destruction which is in the lake of fire - Matt. 7:13. If they continually walk in their dark while believeing in either OSAS or NOSAS, they are on the way to hell. That's period.

Otherwise, if they both continually walk in the light while they believing in either OSAS or NOSAS, they are on the to heaven according to Matt. 7:14.

God is more interesting in our hearts, committed, full dedicated(surrendered) our life toward Him completely. God is more interesting in us that, we are truly walk in the light to prove Him that we are approved and remain belong to Him, and we would be accepted and belong worthy being called, and our names would always be remain in the book of life, and shall enter into eternal life at the end of our life.

Religions mean nothing. More importantly that we need know the truth and make us free by believing what the Bible saying about Jesus Christ, what He has done for us. We have to trust upon Him, follow him all the way to our death, then we shall be saved and victory -Matt 24:13.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Friend of I AM
Jul 25th 2008, 06:47 PM
...and comfort others when in pain. VERY biblical. GREAT JOB!!!

2 Corinthians 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.


Thanks. Here's an interesting verse that I think should be posted in light of the original question asked.

Psalm 14:2-3 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.



None of us in here is God, and we don't possess his level of understanding regarding the Word/his will/his purpose or how he enacts his mercy/compassion on men. That being said - based on the original rationale behind the question being asked, all men have been condemned by God based on their lack of understanding regarding his will. Fortunately we are not to trust in our own understanding, but instead trust in God. Trusting in God means having faith in his son, and calling upon his name. I pray that all men will come to the same understanding and love found in Christ Jesus, as it is offerred freely to all of those who earnestly seek it.

In Christ,

Stephen

fewarechosen
Jul 25th 2008, 07:01 PM
Wonderful! We agree. So now... the person who has that knowledge that such and such is sin?

lets make sure we are on the same ground before i attempt to answer.

does it matter that the person has knowledge of the sin or not ?

i ask because you ask what of the person with the knowledge of the sin -- why the need to seperate them ?

in this scripture it doesnt say anything about having to know you are guilty of these things it just says the people who do these things will have their part in the lake of fire--- if you know you are a coward or not if you know your an idolater or not.

do you see it the same in this scripture ?

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 07:17 PM
If you are saved, why doesn't matter and neither does that big book of all the wrong stuff you have done. It's been erased, gone, far as east is from the west when you repented and gave your life up for yourself and gave it to Christ to Lord over. If you fall off the faith bandwagon, you need to get back on where you fell off.

If you say you still sin, but do nothing except it be for the glory of God, you've lost me there.

If I am saved, I know that I am saved. At least for now anyways. I just don't buy into this OSOS or NOSOS or any other thing that might be out their today.

Like I said before, I am here for one thing and one thing only, and that is to run a race for my Lord. Until I get to my finish line, God has given me a special gift to use, and I am using it to the best of my ability. When I reach my finish line all I can do is have the hope that I have run the kind of race that my Lord has asked me to run for Him. If I have will then all is well. If I have not, well then I guess all will be h***.

And that's the truth, not because I said so, but the Bible does.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 07:32 PM
You only come to Christ through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Can somebody please show me a scripture in the Bible where a person was un-indwelt of the Holy Spirit? Where the Holy Spirit jumped out of their body because they sinned? Thanks.

BCF
Jul 25th 2008, 07:50 PM
You only come to Christ through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Can somebody please show me a scripture in the Bible where a person was un-indwelt of the Holy Spirit? Where the Holy Spirit jumped out of their body because they sinned? Thanks.

You can Blaspheme (don't know if I spelled it right) the Holy Spirit. It don't know if that would be considered the same thing or not in the eyes of God. You would have to ask Him;)

RogerW
Jul 25th 2008, 09:38 PM
Is repentance a requirement for salvation? OR Do we repent because we have been saved? Consider David. Was David's salvation dependent upon his repenting of the great sin he committed against God? Had David not been humbled and of a broken and contrite heart when confronted with his sin, would he have continued to be a man after God's own heart? If David did not repent, would he not be saved?

Many Blessings,
RW

DeafPosttrib
Jul 25th 2008, 09:57 PM
What if suppose, God does not send Nathan, the prophet to David. David would have remain in sins without repentance. I am sure that he would head to hell already. That why David wrote in Psalms, begged God to restored of his joy of salvation. Yes, he did lost salvation during the period of his sins same time. Till Nathan the prophet came to David.

You have to understand that, Old Testament period was much different economy than today of the New Testament period. Because we do not have 'prophets' anymore. Only Holy Spirit dwells in us, his job is to convicting us of sins. If we hardened against the Holy Spirit, then we would not be remain saved by the way we die(physical) with sins, without repentance.

Yes, repentance is required for salvation. If no repent, no salvation, we shall go perish, unless we must repent of sins - 2 Peter 3:9.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 10:03 PM
You can Blaspheme (don't know if I spelled it right) the Holy Spirit. It don't know if that would be considered the same thing or not in the eyes of God. You would have to ask Him;)

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is only done by those who have never had the Holy Spirit indwelt in them in the first place, which is why the Pharisees were able to blaspheme the Holy Spirit when they said Christ's Holy Spirit was of Satan.

A born from above Christian has already been indwelt with the Holy Spirit, so He/she can't blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

melpointy
Jul 25th 2008, 11:05 PM
Wow my head is spinning after reading all of these versus.:giveup:;)

My FIL who was a baptist minister told me that God will always give his children time to repent before they die. I dont know where this is in the Bible but I must believe as Merciful as Our God is he would give us that chance to repent before we die. That is another reason we must pray daily for forgiveness of all of our sins even ones we may have forgetton.

Like those that never served the Lord and on there deathbed received Christ maybe a different solution but still they repented and accepted Christ.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 11:21 PM
My FIL who was a baptist minister told me that God will always give his children time to repent before they die.

This would be all well and good if you knew the exact millisecond with which you will die, but you don't. No man knows when he will die, so you better live for Christ like you might possibly die every second of every day

The time for repentance is not for tomorrow, it's for right now this very second my friend, because you may not draw another breath, and then it's too late.

BCF
Jul 26th 2008, 12:02 AM
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is only done by those who have never had the Holy Spirit indwelt in them in the first place, which is why the Pharisees were able to blaspheme the Holy Spirit when they said Christ's Holy Spirit was of Satan.

A born from above Christian has already been indwelt with the Holy Spirit, so He/she can't blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Ah, I see. This is good. I learned something knew today. Thank you Ron.

See PP, I told you I could listen:lol:

I just had to say that friend;)

RogerW
Jul 26th 2008, 01:32 AM
What if suppose, God does not send Nathan, the prophet to David. David would have remain in sins without repentance. I am sure that he would head to hell already. That why David wrote in Psalms, begged God to restored of his joy of salvation. Yes, he did lost salvation during the period of his sins same time. Till Nathan the prophet came to David.

You have to understand that, Old Testament period was much different economy than today of the New Testament period. Because we do not have 'prophets' anymore. Only Holy Spirit dwells in us, his job is to convicting us of sins. If we hardened against the Holy Spirit, then we would not be remain saved by the way we die(physical) with sins, without repentance.

Yes, repentance is required for salvation. If no repent, no salvation, we shall go perish, unless we must repent of sins - 2 Peter 3:9.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Greetings DeafPosttrib,

Salvation in the OT was exactly the same as in the NT...by grace through faith. David's faith never waivered. He never ceased believing. Scripture tells us all that is necessary to be saved is to believe.

Ac 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Even though David committed great sin, he never stopped believing. Since he never stopped believing, his repentance did not make him saved, but rather is the result of Spirit conviction of his great sin against God. The fact that David was broken and grieved of his sin shows a heart that longs to please God through HS conviction. Had David failed to repent when confronted with his sin, we might assume he had never been saved, and therefore was not convicted by the HS. It is a changed heart that is convicted of sinfulness. Repentance is not a requirement for salvation, believing is.

The difference from the OT to the NT is the operation of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of the saints. The HS was not permanent in the OT, and could come and go, but nonetheless necessary to bring one to salvation. Unlike the operation of the HS in the NT where He promises to permanently indwell every believer.

I am not saying that repenting will not be part of saving grace. Repenting of our sins is undeniable for the one who has been convicted through the power of the Word and operation of the Holy Spirit. Before we are saved we are sinners in need of repentance and faith. But after we have become saved, even though we still commit sins, we are no longer deemed sinners. Once we have been saved, we are righteous, not sinners. God calls sinners to repentance, not the righteous.

Mt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

When we are in Christ we are no longer called sinners. Christ died for us, now we have been justified by His blood, and will be saved from wrath through Him. We were enemies, but now we have been reconciled to God by the death of Christ, and saved by His life.

Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Ro 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

We were sinners, but now we are righteous. Not yet glorified, but a work in progress.

Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Repentance will follow conviction, but we cannot say after we are saved that unless we repent of every single sin we will be lost. That would make salvation not by grace through faith, but by our works.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Many Blessings,
RW

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 26th 2008, 02:42 AM
Is repentance a requirement for salvation? OR Do we repent because we have been saved? Consider David. Was David's salvation dependent upon his repenting of the great sin he committed against God? Had David not been humbled and of a broken and contrite heart when confronted with his sin, would he have continued to be a man after God's own heart? If David did not repent, would he not be saved?

Many Blessings,
RW


Hi Roger.... Hope all went well today... and thanks for praying with the group during lunch time.

To your question, I do believe repentance does play a part in responding to salvation's call... As a heart beat has an in pulse and an out pulse to be one beat, and as a breath has an inhale and an exhale [except if you are Bill Clinton - sorry, old joke], I believe Jesus taught that repentance goes along with faith.


Mark 1:14,15
14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

So I for one do profess that salvation is by God's grace by faith alone, but within faith is repentance and humility and a few more 'ingredients', so to speak...


Have a great evening...

Ron Brown
Jul 26th 2008, 02:56 AM
Greetings DeafPosttrib,


Even though David committed great sin, he never stopped believing. Since he never stopped believing, his repentance did not make him saved, but rather is the result of Spirit conviction of his great sin against God. The fact that David was broken and grieved of his sin shows a heart that longs to please God through HS conviction. Had David failed to repent when confronted with his sin, we might assume he had never been saved, and therefore was not convicted by the HS. It is a changed heart that is convicted of sinfulness. Repentance is not a requirement for salvation, believing is.


Repentance will follow conviction, but we cannot say after we are saved that unless we repent of every single sin we will be lost. That would make salvation not by grace through faith, but by our works.


Great answers.

Lets look at Repent in the Greek manuscript language.

Repent in the Greek is "metanoeo" which means:

1) To change one's mind, i.e. to repent.
2) To change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins.

So as you can see, repenting is changing your mind towards sinning all the time.

losthorizon
Jul 26th 2008, 02:58 AM
So I for one do profess that salvation is by God's grace by faith alone, but within faith is repentance and humility and a few more 'ingredients', so to speak...


And that repentance comes through man’s freewill wouldn’t you agree, RBG?
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Luke 13:3

My heart's Desire
Jul 26th 2008, 03:05 AM
So one thinks that if you want to be saved you are until You decide you don't want to be any longer and then you aren't any more? Ok, so then where does God factor into all that? Where does the FAITH in CHRIST factor into all that HUMAN EFFORT?
Looks like it's All a HUMAN decision to be saved, to stay that way or to not be any longer. That's not the salvation I know CHRIST gives!