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View Full Version : Romans 7:15-25 - Our Sinfulness



bhoup
Jul 23rd 2008, 08:47 PM
Here seems to be something that I cannot 100% grasp. :B In these previous verses: (6:6, 12-14, 22) Paul talks about being a new creature in Christ but yet in 7:15-25 he refers to his still sinful nature and habits in the present tense. How do you reconcile these two views?


Ro 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that[/URL] the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

http://www.zondervanbiblesearch.com/Images/1.gif

Ro 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.


vs. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and[URL="javascript:void(0);"]a (javascript:void(0);) have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification andc (javascript:void(0);) its end, eternal life.

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15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

BCF
Jul 23rd 2008, 10:00 PM
Here seems to be something that I cannot 100% grasp. :B In these previous verses: (6:6, 12-14, 22) Paul talks about being a new creature in Christ but yet in 7:15-25 he refers to his still sinful nature and habits in the present tense. How do you reconcile these two views?


Ro 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.


http://www.zondervanbiblesearch.com/Images/1.gif


Ro 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.




vs. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin anda (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);) have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification andc (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);) its end, eternal life.


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15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.


To but it simple, what Paul is explaining here is the war between Flesh and Spirit that we all face on a daily basis.

mikebr
Jul 23rd 2008, 10:10 PM
Self-Consciousness and the Romans 7 Deathtrap
The thing the Fall created was Self-Consciousness. I don’t mean being aware that we exist - I mean the over-focus on ourselves as selves. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is a world of comparison, competition, fear, defeat, where any success is only temporary at best. The devil is interested in pushing this false lifeline, and he’s got a lot of mankind in his trap: just watch television for an hour and it’s obvious what is going on. Fear. Climbing the mountain of success. I’m not as good as the next guy. I’m better than Joe down the street. I just bought the latest greatest laptop. Look, my new iPhone. You don’t have one yet? I drive a Lexus. Gotta go, I’ve got phone calls to make; gotta keep movin’ in this ol’ world and grab all you can. Nice talking to you, I’ve gotta go wait in the lobby. Scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours. I, I, I, I, I, I, I this and I that. Self-consciousness. Competition. Fear of failure. Drive to succeed. I wasn’t good enough and I feel bad. I was great and I feel on top of the world.

That hellish Tree is really a roller coaster; it’s always the source of our fluctuating sense of identity. That’s where all the fear comes in, when we’re playing on the roller coaster. I did a similar thing to your interview, except it was a bunch of high school kids. I was supposed to speak to the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, but all the kids came from that small school. I didn’t feel prepared for that, and in the rush of figuring out what songs we were going to play and tuning up I didn’t take any time to breathe - to breathe quietly in a corner and push back all that noise that comes from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, that noise that barrages us day and night from televisions, radios, computer screens, cds, cassettes, iPods, cell phones. It is damnably relentless, insidious, and purposeful. It is designed to knock us off balance.

So, as believers, we’ve got the devil on our tail. We’ve jumped in our co-death and resurrection with Christ to the Tree of Life, where we are to rest and push back the Kingdom of Noise and “let that other, quieter life flow in.” But the devil won’t let it rest. He’ll do his best to keep us thinking we’re still part of that Kingdom of Noise (”We will make the entire universe a noise in the end!” said Screwtape).

We’re not part of that kingdom any longer. But we don’t buy it. Instead, we continually buy into false light - all that competition, fear, failure, success, elation - the heroin-like, dreamy lie of self-effort, “I’m just a self, by myself, for myself, having to cope with life on my own.” That’s what we lived in as unbelievers. And when we become Christians, we just tack “With God’s help” onto that lie. But it’s still a foundational lie that drives us, drives our behavior, drives our collapse on the stage of history when we do interviews or play at high schools.

The believer is not a separated self living with God’s help. He is an indwelt self, powered by the Holy Spirit and operated by the Son in the service of the Father. I told my wife the other day that all I am is a switch-thrower: Lights on - trust God in Christ to live through me. The devil comes and turns the lights off, throws the switch to “I must trust myself to cope with life and be a good parent and have a career and be like Christ and exert effort and try hard and..and…and…” Back to the Lie. It’s my job right then to throw it back to “on”: I’m an indwelt temple, owned and operated by God himself. I have no needs, because I have everything I need for life and godliness. Norman Grubb used to sing “I have Thee every hour, most gracious Lord.” He said, “You need what you haven’t got; you have what you have got.” That’s where we all want to live, and as we do, we see Spirit soak into our music and husbanding and fathering and friendships. Occasionally we slip back into that old mindset, but the way out is always reliance on the indwelling power of God and trusting his transcendent sovereign power to use even our stumbling, self-effort infected public speaking to bring others to know him.

“No condemnation” brings us back out of the Romans 7 deathtrap of self-effort “trying to be something for Jesus”, the hellish Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and back into Romans 8 where we rely on the indwelling Spirit and then on into Romans 9 where we lay down our lives for others.



I know this is frowned upon by some but Ron Block does a good job explaining things.

www.ronblock.com

Friend of I AM
Jul 23rd 2008, 10:23 PM
To but it simple, what Paul is explaining here is the war between Flesh and Spirit that we all face on a daily basis.

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Excellently/simplistically/and beautifully put. Thumbs up.

RogerW
Jul 23rd 2008, 11:01 PM
Here seems to be something that I cannot 100% grasp. :B In these previous verses: (6:6, 12-14, 22) Paul talks about being a new creature in Christ but yet in 7:15-25 he refers to his still sinful nature and habits in the present tense. How do you reconcile these two views?


Ro 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.


http://www.zondervanbiblesearch.com/Images/1.gif


Ro 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.




vs. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin anda (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);) have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification andc (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);) its end, eternal life.

None of these verses say that when we become Christians we will no longer sin. They tell us that we are no longer slaves to sin, and sin will no longer have dominion over us, for now we have been set free from slavery to sin and have become slaves of God.







15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.



Paul is engaged in a spiritual battle, wanting to do that which is good, but finding that sin still remains in his body of death. Paul's renewed mind tells him not to sin, but the law of sin dwelling in his body of death fights against him so that he sometimes serves the law of God with his mind, but with his flesh he serves the law of sin. But one thing is certain, since Paul stuggles to do that which is good, he is no longer enslaved (held under its power) to sin. He has been set free from the bondage that sin once held him in. When enslaved to sin, Paul could do no good, but now that he has been set free, he stuggles against the sin that competes against his renewed mind, thereby showing the freedom he has received in Christ. This is why Paul can confidently say:

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Many Blessings,
RW

keck553
Jul 23rd 2008, 11:29 PM
I know this is frowned upon by some but Ron Block does a good job explaining things.

www.ronblock.com (http://www.ronblock.com)

I like Ron Block!

mikebr
Jul 24th 2008, 01:17 AM
I like Ron Block!


What some people frown upon is posting what someone else says about a particular subject especially if its long.

Yeah Ron is way cool. Ever visit the www.rabbitroom.com