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Gritb4thePearl
Jul 24th 2008, 05:26 PM
Question: When preaching, is it wrong to preach often about Grace? Is there such a thing as too much Grace?

While considering this, keep in mind the need to preach judgment and honestly letting people know that we are sinful. Giving Bible references for your point along with your general opinion would be much appreciated. Thank you.

I want to read what you have to say and I will be giving my own opinion at a later time. :-)

Christi

Firefighter
Jul 24th 2008, 05:53 PM
When you turn on the lights of a (rundown) house and see roaches scurrying, do you have to tell them that they are roaches and that the should be scurrying? Of course not, they just "know" and seek out darkness.

Likewise, instead of trying to figure out a ratio of topical preaching, if we (the church), not just us pastors, would be filled daily with the Holy Spirit, and get them in the presence of an almighty and all powerful God we won't have to tell them they are sinners, they will already know.

Just my thoughts.

And before anyone even thinks about it... I am one of the hardest preachers against sin that I know.

awestruckchild
Jul 24th 2008, 06:03 PM
Urban Missionary-
That was the simple and powerful truth right there and if your church was in Maryland I would go to it in a heartbeat!!

mikebr
Jul 24th 2008, 07:51 PM
The second you add anything to grace it ceases to be grace. Grace and __________ is not the Good News. I heard a preacher say one time that if its not good news its probably not the gospel. I heard another one say lately that we fail to preach the negative part of the gospel. IOW the bad part of the good news. Paul was accused of preaching too much grace.

EaglesWINGS911
Jul 24th 2008, 07:58 PM
I don't see how you can preach "too much" grace...because if you are then you are in essence preaching "too much Jesus" because He IS grace. It's like saying that the church should be careful not to preach too much love..impossible! Because He IS Love as well. I think as long as you are preaching the Gospel in its entirety then you have nothing to worry about.

mikebr
Jul 24th 2008, 07:58 PM
“If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.” On the day of the Feast of St. Peter the Apostle, 1521, Martin Luther

How this for too much grace.

RabbiKnife
Jul 24th 2008, 08:01 PM
I once heard Chuck Swindoll say that unless people accuse you of preaching a license to sin, you probably aren't preaching enough grace...

So, no...

You can never proclaim too much grace...There is nothing else to proclaim.

Partaker of Christ
Jul 24th 2008, 08:01 PM
Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spoke unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Zec 4:7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.

Zec 4:8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Zec 4:9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 24th 2008, 08:54 PM
You can never proclaim too much grace...There is nothing else to proclaim.

How about Grace (love and compassions) and truth (Law and obedience)

This is IMO the full gospel.

Shalom,
Tanja

mikebr
Jul 24th 2008, 08:55 PM
I once heard Chuck Swindoll say that unless people accuse you of preaching a license to sin, you probably aren't preaching enough grace...

So, no...

You can never proclaim too much grace...There is nothing else to proclaim.

Thanks I was looking for that quote.

mikebr
Jul 24th 2008, 08:57 PM
How about Grace (love and compassions) and truth (Law and obedience)

This is IMO the full gospel.

Shalom,
Tanja


For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Where do you get that Truth is law and obedience. Jesus is the Truth.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 24th 2008, 09:33 PM
Where do you get that Truth is law and obedience. Jesus is the Truth.IMO Yeshua is both:The Word of God that came down from Mt Sinai was IMO every part of Yeshua as much as Grace is. The reason He is truth, is because He was the only one so far that could live the Law lawfully. His whole live was a life lived after the law. A Law full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Remember where that glory was before in the OT?

2Co 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end,

It was brought to an end because it was not transferable from man to man meaning from sinner to sinner. This is the Law that made Moses face bright, because he understood it correctly, and tried to pass this on. This glory faded, because it was not made manifest in the heart of many, because it was passed on by man, who could not give life.

Joh 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.

Now this glory is passed on by Yeshua through the Spirit. It's still the Law, but it is now being passed on by the one who has the power to give life, so therefore it will not weaken.

Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

Now you may wonder how the Law could be love? Simple, if it is followed no one gets hurt.....

Shalom,
Tanja

Gritb4thePearl
Jul 24th 2008, 09:40 PM
So, the Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 15). Keep it up. I love the comments.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 24th 2008, 09:56 PM
You can't understand what grace is until you understand your need for it.

This whole idea that people somehow know they're inherently sinful is bunk. If this were true, Paul wouldn't have had to write the first 7 chapters of Romans.

mikebr
Jul 25th 2008, 01:38 AM
You can't understand what grace is until you understand your need for it.

This whole idea that people somehow know they're inherently sinful is bunk. If this were true, Paul wouldn't have had to write the first 7 chapters of Romans.


You also won't understand until you die to the law. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. I have died to the law that I might live to Christ.

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 01:53 AM
You can't understand what grace is until you understand your need for it.


True.

What good will it do to preach about a savior of your sins, if you don't realize you are a sinner in the first place?

We are to reprove people when we preach according to Paul in his letters to Timothy, but we must reprove them with love and grace and not with harsh condemnation.

Letisha Owens
Jul 25th 2008, 02:59 AM
The whole purpose of Jesus coming to the earth and dying on the cross is to show grace. most don't understand realize what it's all about, I don't think it can be preached to much, to many people live in bondage feeling inslaved to themselves. Romans 5:20 5:2 3:24-25

apothanein kerdos
Jul 25th 2008, 03:43 AM
You also won't understand until you die to the law. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. I have died to the law that I might live to Christ.

Mazel tov for you I guess, but the fact is a complete Gospel presentation includes telling people they're sinners. That is exactly what Christ did - why should we do any different?

SIG
Jul 25th 2008, 04:35 AM
1-- It is the gospel that we are meant to preach.

2--What is the Bible's own definition of the gospel?:

"Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures."

"Christ died for our sins" contains the grace we are to preach. "For our sins" contains the condemnation of all and the need for a Savior. "Buried and raised" contains our assurance of eternal life. "According to the Scriptures" testifies that the word of God is omniscient and true.

3-- The gospel contains all these; we must preach all these.

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 12:39 PM
This whole idea that people somehow know they're inherently sinful is bunk. If this were true, Paul wouldn't have had to write the first 7 chapters of Romans.

Not true. When Paul wrote Romans no disciple had ever been to Rome. Not one. Let's look at scripture...

Adam seemed to know it...

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

So did the lady who annointed Jesus' feet...

Luk 7:37-38 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.

Even entire nations will tremble at His presence...

Isa 64:2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!

Even the Pharisees knew who had been in the presence of God...

Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marveled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

Even the demons are aware of the presence of God...

Mar 5:6-7 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshiped him, And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Or the lack thereof...

Act 19:14-15 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 25th 2008, 01:29 PM
"Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures." What could the above bolded part be referring to?


Main Entry:
1gos·pel Listen to the pronunciation of 1gospel
Pronunciation:
\ˈgäs-pəl\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Old English gōdspel (translation of Late Latin evangelium), from gōd good + spell tale — more at spell
Date:
before 12th century

1 aoften capitalized : the message concerning Christ, the kingdom of God, and salvation
bcapitalized : one of the first four New Testament books telling of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ; also : a similar apocryphal book c: an interpretation of the Christian message <the social gospel>
2capitalized : a lection from one of the New Testament Gospels
3: the message or teachings of a religious teacher
4: something accepted or promoted as infallible truth or as a guiding principle or doctrine <took her words as gospel> <spreading the gospel of conservation — R. M. Hodesh>

"unless you believed in vain" ..... So what does one have to do so we don't believe in vain? It's not just about Grace but it's also about doing His will "repent, the kingdom of God is at hand"
What is repentance? A turning from sin, and doing His will.
This all of us who repent and continue to do His will make up His Kingdom.

Shalom,
Tanja

apothanein kerdos
Jul 25th 2008, 02:26 PM
Not true. When Paul wrote Romans no disciple had ever been to Rome. Not one. Let's look at scripture...

Adam seemed to know it...

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

So did the lady who annointed Jesus' feet...

Luk 7:37-38 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.

Even entire nations will tremble at His presence...

Isa 64:2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!

Even the Pharisees knew who had been in the presence of God...

Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marveled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

Even the demons are aware of the presence of God...

Mar 5:6-7 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshiped him, And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Or the lack thereof...

Act 19:14-15 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?






Aside from proving nothing...

These Scriptures also contradict your premise. If, as the Old Testament says, all the nations tremble and realize their own sin, my original point still stands: Paul had no need to write the first 7 chapters of Romans.

Friend of I AM
Jul 25th 2008, 03:46 PM
Question: When preaching, is it wrong to preach often about Grace? Is there such a thing as too much Grace?

While considering this, keep in mind the need to preach judgment and honestly letting people know that we are sinful. Giving Bible references for your point along with your general opinion would be much appreciated. Thank you.

I want to read what you have to say and I will be giving my own opinion at a later time. :-)

Christi

I don't think it's a matter of preaching "too much grace" but more so a matter of whether or not one is preaching in accordance with the Word of God. If someone starts saying stuff that goes against the word of God when preaching "grace" then that's when you have problems.

Gritb4thePearl
Jul 25th 2008, 04:40 PM
I have read some amazing truths

1. The Gospel is the Death (for our sins), Burial, and Resurrection of Christ
1 Cor 15
2. The whole Gospel must be preached.
3. It is not a matter of "too much grace," but what coiincides with the
Word of God.

Thank you for your responses thus far.

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 05:32 PM
Aside from proving nothing...

These Scriptures also contradict your premise. If, as the Old Testament says, all the nations tremble and realize their own sin, my original point still stands: Paul had no need to write the first 7 chapters of Romans.

Ummm.. you need to read it again dear friend. The OT reference to the nations was prophetic i.e. - FUTURE event. Der.

threebigrocks
Jul 25th 2008, 06:13 PM
What could the above bolded part be referring to?


Main Entry:
1gos·pel Listen to the pronunciation of 1gospel
Pronunciation:
\ˈgäs-pəl\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Old English gōdspel (translation of Late Latin evangelium), from gōd good + spell tale — more at spell
Date:
before 12th century

1 aoften capitalized : the message concerning Christ, the kingdom of God, and salvation
bcapitalized : one of the first four New Testament books telling of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ; also : a similar apocryphal book c: an interpretation of the Christian message <the social gospel>
2capitalized : a lection from one of the New Testament Gospels
3: the message or teachings of a religious teacher
4: something accepted or promoted as infallible truth or as a guiding principle or doctrine <took her words as gospel> <spreading the gospel of conservation — R. M. Hodesh>

"unless you believed in vain" ..... So what does one have to do so we don't believe in vain? It's not just about Grace but it's also about doing His will "repent, the kingdom of God is at hand"
What is repentance? A turning from sin, and doing His will.
This all of us who repent and continue to do His will make up His Kingdom.

Shalom,
Tanja

Which begins when we die with Christ to sin. Christ preached repentance unto grace, which is the good news, the Gospel, which we are to follow.

Colossians 2


16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--

17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
18Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
19and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
20If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21"Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" 22(which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?


If we are to not be drawn away from holding fast to the head, which is Christ, by doing what can only suffice the flesh but to remain in grace, is that that not in part vanity? What we do does not save, it's what we cannot see that holds our promise.

The entire gospel needs to be preached, including how we realize our need for a Savior. Grace is of no worth unless we understand what we are apart from grace. That is the purpose of the law, and it's work is done when it exposes us as sinful beings before a just and holy God.

Romans 3



19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.


We are under the law or grace. We cannot be under both. The law does not justify but only brings the knowledge of sin.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 25th 2008, 06:53 PM
Ummm.. you need to read it again dear friend. The OT reference to the nations was prophetic i.e. - FUTURE event. Der.


Why did everyone not think they were a sinner prior to Paul, but suddenly after Paul they realize they are a sinner? What of those that have never heard the Gospel? What do you do with people who are adamant that there is no such thing as "sin" or "good" or "evil?"

Firefighter
Jul 25th 2008, 06:55 PM
Ummm... that is the Holy Spirit's job, not ours. We do not convict of anything He does.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 25th 2008, 07:02 PM
We are under the law or grace. We cannot be under both. The law does not justify but only brings the knowledge of sin.Again, i see there's a misunderstanding on what "under the Law" means.

While an unbeliever falls under the Law (the requirement of punishment for breaking the law) and will not experience salvation through grace.
A believer is not under the Law nor does he fall under it when he falls, because the requirement of punishment for breaking the law has been eliminated through Yeshua's sacrifice!!! So should we then live lawless lives?
Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
No we live by the Law, and have a provision by the grace of God available to us, of a perfect sacrifice, for when we fall.

IOW:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

"through Faith" is an active doing of the word of God/Law which is good works, not filthy rags because we are in HIM. If we weren't in Him then it would indeed be filthy rags.

Shalom,
Tanja

apothanein kerdos
Jul 25th 2008, 07:05 PM
Ummm... that is the Holy Spirit's job, not ours. We do not convict of anything He does.

Where did I say it was our job to convict them? I said it is our job to tell them about their sin and explain why it's wrong - that doesn't necessitate they will be convicted once we have revealed this information to them.

Is it a sin to tell people they're in sin?

Friend of I AM
Jul 25th 2008, 07:07 PM
Where did I say it was our job to convict them? I said it is our job to tell them about their sin and explain why it's wrong - that doesn't necessitate they will be convicted once we have revealed this information to them.

Is it a sin to tell people they're in sin?

No. But we must pray to God that we do so with the right spirit within us when trying to correct them.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 25th 2008, 07:10 PM
No. But we must pray to God that we do so with the right spirit within us when trying to correct them.

Oh absolutely and this I wouldn't disagree with. I think if we recognize what sin is - something that causes the image of God (a person) to be separated from the image bearer - it can cause a great sadness within us. This sadness should be seen when discussing someone's sins with him or her lest it look like we enjoy pointing out people's flaws.