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theothersock
Jul 24th 2008, 08:35 PM
DAY 2:
GENESIS 1 : 6 - 8 (KJV)


And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which under the firmament from the waters which above the firmament: and it was so.
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.


Notice anything unusual about this day?

It is the one day where God does not refer to his works as good or otherwise bless them!


DAY 1:
GENESIS 1 : 1 - 5 (KJV)


In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

DAY 3:
GENESIS 1 : 9 - 13 (KJV)


And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry appear: and it was so.
And God called the dry Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that good.
And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed in itself, after his kind: and God saw that good.
And the evening and the morning were the third day.

DAY 4:
GENESIS 1 : 14 - 19 (KJV)


And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: the stars also.
And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that good.
And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

DAY 5:
GENESIS 1 : 20- 23 (KJV)


And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that good.
And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

DAY 6:
GENESIS 1 : 24 - 31 (KJV)


And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that good.
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So God created man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein life, every green herb for meat: and it was so.
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

DAY 7:
GENESIS 2 : 1 - 3 (KJV)


Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.



Why is it that the second day is the only one that God did not find suitable to call good or bless?

RabbiKnife
Jul 24th 2008, 08:36 PM
Hanging too much on jots and tittles.


On day 6, He called everything good.

theothersock
Jul 24th 2008, 08:38 PM
This question was posed to me some time ago by a man on another forum who goes by "GospelOfPeace". His question has intrigued me greatly, and I have long sought the answer since.

I have fiddled with a few theories of my own, and will be glad to share them, but first I would like to know your interpretations before I influence them with my thoughts.

theothersock
Jul 24th 2008, 08:39 PM
Hanging too much on jots and tittles.


On day 6, He called everything good.

When dealing with the inspired word of the Almighty, regarding the creation of all things no less, how can anything be dismissed as a "jot" or "tittle"?

To he who has understanding...

RabbiKnife
Jul 24th 2008, 08:48 PM
If you've got Moses' original manuscript, then you might have an argument with me!!!

:D

Reading the context of the passage, I find nothing even remotely odd about the absence of the phrase "it was good" attached to the second day. God clearly was pleased with everything that He had made.

Brother Mark
Jul 24th 2008, 08:59 PM
God is often referred to as the Living Water. Jesus taught that if we were thirsty, we could come to him and he would give us Water so that we would never thirst again. On the cross, for the first time he uttered the words "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" And "I thirst". For the first time in his life, Jesus was thirsty for God.

On the first day of creation ... "Let there be light". The birth of Christ was pictured here.

On the second day of creation..."Let the waters below be separated from the waters above". The crucifixion of Christ. Nothing was good about the Living Waters above being separated from the Living Waters below.

On the third day of creation, God created seeds and earth. In Mark 4, God taught us about the sower and the seed. The seed is sown into the earth (heart) and it bears fruit. Jesus, taught us that unless a grain of wheat dies, it will not bear fruit. But if that seed dies, it will bear much fruit. The grain of wheat that died was sown in our hearts and we bear much fruit.

God said on the third day "It is good" twice. The resurrection is twice as good as anything else God did!!! The resurrected Jesus is sown into the hearts of his children and He is fruitful.

Finally, at the end of creation, God formed man in his own image. At that point, he no longer said it was just "good". Instead, he said "it is very good". When we are conformed to the image of Christ, God tells us "it is very good".

Ron Brown
Jul 24th 2008, 09:14 PM
God is often referred to as the Living Water. Jesus taught that if we were thirsty, we could come to him and he would give us Water so that we would never thirst again. On the cross, for the first time he uttered the words "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" And "I thirst". For the first time in his life, Jesus was thirsty for God.

On the first day of creation ... "Let there be light". The birth of Christ was pictured here.

On the second day of creation..."Let the waters below be separated from the waters above". The crucifixion of Christ. Nothing was good about the Living Waters above being separated from the Living Waters below.

On the third day of creation, God created seeds and earth. In Mark 4, God taught us about the sower and the seed. The seed is sown into the earth (heart) and it bears fruit. Jesus, taught us that unless a grain of wheat dies, it will not bear fruit. But if that seed dies, it will bear much fruit. The grain of wheat that died was sown in our hearts and we bear much fruit.

God said on the third day "It is good" twice. The resurrection is twice as good as anything else God did!!! The resurrected Jesus is sown into the hearts of his children and He is fruitful.

Finally, at the end of creation, God formed man in his own image. At that point, he no longer said it was just "good". Instead, he said "it is very good". When we are conformed to the image of Christ, God tells us "it is very good".

Very good answer.

Also, it could be that God's foreknowledge showed him that the heavens and the earth must be separated because man would fall into sin, and since God cannot be in the presence of sin, he knew there had to be an unreachable distance between fallen man, and God. Man being separated from God is not good, but because of man's sin, it had to be done? Not a great theory, but it's a theory none the less.

theothersock
Jul 24th 2008, 09:17 PM
If you've got Moses' original manuscript, then you might have an argument with me!!!

:D


Like yourself, I work with the best I have.

So by this statement am I correct to assume that you doubt the validity of the Biblical texts to which we have access? In questioning the validity of every known Biblical text, then do you not question the Bible itself.

You can not question the validity of all known Biblical texts while believing them to be the inspired Word of God.


Reading the context of the passage, I find nothing even remotely odd about the absence of the phrase "it was good" attached to the second day. God clearly was pleased with everything that He had made.

Patterns and emphasis and repetition are EXTREMELY prominent throughout the Biblical text. Such a notable aberration from pattern and repetition when it is given such great emphasis in the surrounding verses truly IS "odd".

Nothing is written without reason.

Let us find.

theothersock
Jul 24th 2008, 09:18 PM
Very good answer.

Also, it could be that God's foreknowledge showed him that the heavens and the earth must be separated because man would fall into sin, and since God cannot be in the presence of sin, he knew there had to be an unreachable distance between fallen man, and God. Man being separated from God is not good, but because of man's sin, it had to be done? Not a great theory, but it's a theory none the less.

This is precisely what I feel is being referenced. The separation from that which is above, from that which is below. Creating an expanse to divide the heavenly from the earthly.

Elijah
Jul 24th 2008, 09:28 PM
"Good" was not included with the words on the second day. However, this does not mean that the second day was not good. I don't think Heaven is near bad. For the reason unknown to us, the term "good" was not included.

Brother Mark
Jul 24th 2008, 09:32 PM
Very good answer.

Also, it could be that God's foreknowledge showed him that the heavens and the earth must be separated because man would fall into sin, and since God cannot be in the presence of sin, he knew there had to be an unreachable distance between fallen man, and God. Man being separated from God is not good, but because of man's sin, it had to be done? Not a great theory, but it's a theory none the less.

My sister also mentions that God used the waters above to judge the earth in Noah's time. In his foreknowledge, he wasn't going to say that which he used for judgment was good.

The reason I go with the post above is because I can trace each verse to a NT verse to back up the thinking. Jesus is the light and he came to the darkness and the darkness comprehended it not. The Spirit came upon Mary just as the spirit hovered over the earth in Gen 1 and then there was light and so on from there.

Another take on the whole thing is to look at Paul's quote in Corinthians where he told the church that it was God that said "let there be light" and the light shown in our hearts. Thus, God hovering over and convicting our heart, caused us to be born again and light was shown in our hearts. Later, we began to have our spirit and soul separated (waters above and waters below) and this is a difficult process. But as we see later, it is also very fruitful. So in Genesis 1 we see both the coming of Christ and the sanctification of his brothers. Only God can write one chapter and have three different stories told all at once.


And of course, the way you state it is also an interesting take on the whole thing.

Rullion Green
Jul 24th 2008, 09:41 PM
Dont keep us in suspense :monkeyd:whats your theory othersock ???

don't know if the monkey is the correct symbol for suspense but i have never had a chance to use him !! :D

keck553
Jul 24th 2008, 09:48 PM
Anyone else see the Godhead (trinity) in Gen 1:2?

theothersock
Jul 24th 2008, 10:38 PM
Dont keep us in suspense :monkeyd:whats your theory othersock ???

don't know if the monkey is the correct symbol for suspense but i have never had a chance to use him !! :D

My beliefs follow "Ron Brown's" almost exactly.

This is either the actual occurrence of, or an allegory for the separation of the spiritual from the natural, the heavenly from the earthly, God from man.

However, it would be strange that this would be the verse to portray it, as we have the separation of light from darkness on the first day, which would seem even more likely of such an allegory.

Also we have separation of waters to create dry land on day 3.

The first part of day 1 God creates light.Then he separates it. On day 2 he separates the waters above from below. The first part of day 3, he separates the waters to create dry land. Then he creates plant life.

-woah-

this potential parallel just came to me as I finished typing the statement above.

The first part of (Friday?) Christ was alive being crucified. Then he died. On (Saturday?) he was dead. For the veeery first part of (Sunday?) he was dead, and then he rose again.

This plays in well with what "Brother Mark" had to say, does it not?

theothersock
Jul 24th 2008, 10:46 PM
Anyone else see the Godhead (trinity) in Gen 1:2?

GENESIS 1 : 2 (KJV)


And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Not in and of itself...

But if we suppose that this is a direct reference to the Holy Spirit, and that...

GENESIS 1 : 1 (KJV)


In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

...this is a direct reference to the Father, and then plug in...

JOHN 1 : 1 - 16 (KJV)


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
There was a man sent from God, whose name John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but to bear witness of that Light.
Was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

...with the appropriate understanding that "The Word" refers to Christ...

...then, with these, yes I can see how the Trinity is in Genesis.

Ron Brown
Jul 24th 2008, 10:49 PM
Anyone else see the Godhead (trinity) in Gen 1:2?

The Godhead is in Genesis 1:1

The Hebrew word for god used here is 'elohiym which is a plural pronoun. Plural is more then one, so there had to be at least 2 present in the beginning.

keck553
Jul 24th 2008, 10:51 PM
Absolutely. The Godhead is all over the place, and notibly points right to Yeshua. Not to get into a contest, but actually the first Hebrew letter in the Bible - 'bet' represents the Godhead. If you're interested I'll link you to that explaination.

theothersock
Jul 24th 2008, 10:58 PM
Absolutely. The Godhead is all over the place, and notibly points right to Yeshua. Not to get into a contest, but actually the first Hebrew letter in the Bible - 'bet' represents the Godhead. If you're interested I'll link you to that explaination.

Indeed I am interested!

BroRog
Jul 25th 2008, 12:33 AM
I agree with Brother Mark's sister. God did not declare the firmament "good" and neither did he declare mankind "good" on the sixth day.

crawfish
Jul 25th 2008, 01:22 PM
You'll notice that day 2 is the only day (other than 7) that God actually does not create anything. That's probably a clue.

keck553
Jul 25th 2008, 03:41 PM
Indeed I am interested!

I'll just repost it.

Gen 1:1

בראשׁית ברא אלהים את השׁמים ואת הארץ׃


Hebrew reads from right to left. This is how this verse looks in a Torah scroll, without the vowel points. In a Torah scroll, the first letter is enlarged just as you see it above. This is the letter “bet”. It is enlarged for a reason.


The first word/phrase of the verse is b'resh-i-t, which literally means “in beginning”. The letter ‘bet’ is the preposition ‘b’, which means “in”. Resh-i-t means ‘beginning’.


…what beginning? Before what? And knowing that, what was there before this beginning?


The rest of the verse does answer some of those questions – the ‘in beginning’ referees to the beginning of ‘heaven and earth’. So…what was before? We don’t know, however, it does answer that God was before this verse. Looking at the verse in Hebrew again, we can clearly see that everything to the left of the letter ‘bet’ comes as after ‘the beginning’ and that God Himself existed before and to the right (the right arm of God??) of the letter ‘bet’.


This was not lost on the Jewish sages. They also wondered what the significance was of the letter “bet”. Just looking at it here, you can see that the letter ‘bet’ is open toward the rest of the verse as if the very words of Scripture came out from inside of the letter ‘bet’. What is more intriguing is that the letter ‘bet’ is also a word….which means ‘house’


בית לחם
= Bet-Lecham = Bethleham = House of Bread


The ancients of course saw the Tabernacle, and the Temple as “Bet”, in fact the Hebrews referred to the Temple as simply “bet”.


The ancients also wondered about what was not seen to the right of ‘bet’, just as we do these days…what was ‘before’? They wondered if there was another letter that was invisible.


As it turns out, there is a single letter that can fit exactly over and around the letter ‘bet’. It is the letter ‘pey’. The letter ‘pet’ also is a word that means ‘mouth’. It was not lost to the ancients that the letter ‘bet’ is a perfect match to fit inside the letter ‘pey’. When the comptemplated the importance of the first letter being a ‘bet’, they also comptemplated an ‘invisible’ mouth that spoke the creating into existence through the bet.


The ‘bet’ is then a visible representation of the creative voice that was spoken.


Did some of those sages understand the Messianic significance? It turns out that some did. Among the things that ancient interpreters say existed before Genesis 1:1 are the Torah, the Name of Messiah, and a Voice that says “repent you children of men”.


As we go further down the verse, there are two letters not translated into English. They are the letters alef and tav, the 15th and 16th letters of the verse. These are on any Torah scroll, but not translated in our English bibles. They are in fact, a grammatical device. The ancient sages of course understood the grammatical need (like ‘the’ or ‘a’) for these two letters, but it also must have stood out that these letters are the first and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet (in Greek it would be alpha- omega), what the Hebrews referred to as the alef-bet. Some sages though that it appears to represent a range of letters, and since the middle letter of alef- tav is ‘mem’, the alef-tav is alluding to the word ‘emet’, which means truth.


Truth – Emet is also an anagram of m’eth which can be read ‘from Aleph-Tav. This is akin to when we swear to tell the truth, the whole truth. Truth falls short if it includes less than the whole, or from Aleph to Tav. Likewise, all truth comes from God, who identifies Himself as the beginning and the end (Aleph-Tav).


About the letter ‘tav’. In the turn of the 20th century there was a Jew named Eliezer ben Yehuda who became who we now credit with reviving the Hebrew language. In his pocket Hebrew dictionary, ben Yehuda describes the Tav’s alternate ancient Hebrew written forms.....it's a cross!


God further describes Tav (written in ancient Hebrew as a cross) as a mark or a seal in Ezekiel:


Eze 9:4 Adonai said to him, "Go throughout the city, through all Yerushalayim, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who are sighing and crying over all the disgusting practices that are being committed in it."


Everyone marked with the Tav (if you googled it, you would have noticed it's alternate written form as a cross) was protected when God poured out His wrath on the apostates corrupting His Temple. When Jesus died, he cried out “It is finished”. His work was the “Tav”, the finished work.



Check some scripture that relates to verse 1 in Genesis 1:


Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
(by what agency did God create the heavens?)


Psa 104:24 O LORD, how many are Your works! In wisdom You have made them all; The earth is full of Your possessions.
(with what did God make everything?)


Psa 29:3 The voice of the LORD is upon the waters; The God of glory thunders, The LORD is over many waters.
Gen 1:2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
(how do these verses relate?)


Neh 9:6 "You alone are the LORD. You have made the heavens, The heaven of heavens with all their host, The earth and all that is on it, The seas and all that is in them. You give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before You.


The Targumim are ancient Aramaic phrases of the Toran and some of the writings that date to the first or second century. They can provide us with glimpses of how Scripture passages were viewed around the time of Yeshua/Jesus. The Targumim use a word many times in conjunction with the Person of God and His creative work. It is the Aramaic word “memra”. The Greek equivalent is use by Jewish philosopher Philo was the word “Logos”. See how Targum Onklelos translates Deuteronomy 33:27:


The habitation of Elohey is from eternity, and the world was made by His “Memra” and He will drive out they enemies from before thee, and will say “destroy”.


How would this fit with the possible importance of the letter “bet” being the first letter of scripture and the embodiment of the creative Voice?


In the apostolic writings Yeshua/Jesus is presented simply and honestly as “God with ”. As previously noted, the Greek term for word is “logos”. Unlike some of the Targumim, the Apostolic Scriptures (NT) have no problem with the visible and bodily manifestation of God.


Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; but the only and unique Son, who is identical with God and is at the Father's side — he has made him known.



Remember the alepf – Tav in Gen 1:1? The first and last letters in Greek are alpha-omega.



When we examine the 1st and 2nd centuy it’s clear that from the fist letter Yeshua/Jesus was there.


God the Father is the Voice, the Spirit of God hovering is the Holy Spirit, and the waters are the Living Water, Jesus.


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was with God in the beginning. (The spirit of God hovered over the waters)
Joh 1:3 All things came to be through him (remember the word came out of the "bet" in Gen 1:1), and without him nothing made had being.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind.
Joh 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not suppressed it.



[/quote]

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 25th 2008, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
Anyone else see the Godhead (trinity) in Gen 1:2?

I see the trinity in Genesis 1:1 through 1:3

Genesis 1:1 = God
Genesis 1:2 = Spirit/mind of God
Genesis 1:3 = Yeshua (hayah)

Anyone ever see fractal patterns?

I see everything building into a fractal pattern starting with Genesis 1:1
Genesis 1:1-3 building upon the very first and then therafter the days of creation.
Separation of God's 3 parts taking place and it builds on that from there on out throughout scripture.

There's so much more i am learning now it blows my mind. I don't think i can share all of that here though.

It's hard enough to explain what i see bringing it out in words...

Tanja

seamus414
Jul 25th 2008, 04:19 PM
You'll notice that day 2 is the only day (other than 7) that God actually does not create anything. That's probably a clue.

Through analysis using Occam's razor, your answer is probably the correct one and is, once one sees it, rather obvious. God describes his creations as good and in day 2 nothing was created so nothing gets the description. Good observation. This is not to say the allegorical interpretations in this thread are wrong, of course just that, practically speaking, it's just an issue that nothing was created.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 25th 2008, 04:36 PM
I disagree that God didn't create anything on the second day, cause he did:

Gen 1:6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
Gen 1:7 And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

He did create Heaven.

Tanja

crawfish
Jul 25th 2008, 06:43 PM
I disagree that God didn't create anything on the second day, cause he did:

Gen 1:6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
Gen 1:7 And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

He did create Heaven.

Tanja

The expanse was made from the separation of the waters. There is no question that God acted on this day, though.

seamus414
Jul 25th 2008, 07:17 PM
I disagree that God didn't create anything on the second day, cause he did:

Gen 1:6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
Gen 1:7 And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

He did create Heaven.

Tanja

You cannot create nothing. God merely seperated stuff and a space was left where the stuff used to be and God gave that a name. Nothing was created, God just moved stuff and named the empty space where that stuff was.

This is probably a bad analogy but it is the only thing I can think of: it is like "making" a crater. A crater is certainly "made" through a direct act but there is certainly nothing new being formed. A crater is the removal of material from a space due to an impact. A crater is not "made" in the same way matter is "made" from nothing as a crater is, in reality, merely a word to describe a place where matter was removed. The expanse on the second day is similar to this.

theothersock
Jul 25th 2008, 07:49 PM
You'll notice that day 2 is the only day (other than 7) that God actually does not create anything. That's probably a clue.

You make an interesting point, however...

GENESIS 1 : 6 - 8 (KJV)


And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which under the firmament from the waters which above the firmament: and it was so.
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

I suppose it really comes down to the nature of making an expanse or space. According to human reasoning, nothing was "made", only moved. However Scripture is clear to use language that denotes creation of something...

Compelling...

When in doubt, I find it best to rely on clear scripture rather than human reasoning. Scripture very clearly tells us that something was indeed "created".

He said "Let there be..." and there was. This clearly parallels all of the other Genesis events wherein something is created.

We are told, specifically, that he "made" it. This word is not even used in all of the other creation events. It's presence here should lend particular weight to the notion that something was, in fact, "created".

He gives it a purpose "let it divide the waters from the waters." Nothing can not have a purpose, only something.

We are not told that God "divided the waters and thus made the firmament, but that "God made the firmament, and divided the waters." The waters were divided by the creation of the firmament. The firmament was not created by the dividing of the waters.

He names it. "And God called the firmament Heaven." Do you name nothing, or do you name something? Are the other scriptural accounts of that which is called Heaven conducive to believing that Heaven or the Heavens are "nothing"?

Even where we foolishly perceive nothing, there is something. Even space is not a vacuum. There are countless atoms, molecules etc. present right before our eyes, yet seeing we do not see. Even in outer space, there is not true vacuum, but matter more widely dispersed than we are accustomed.

Our understanding is limited and prone to countless errors by virtue of ignorance, perspective, and a multitude of other human failings. When we arrive at a situation wherein scripture and logic seem to be at odds, it is always best to listen to scripture, as it is the infallible of the two.

theothersock
Jul 25th 2008, 07:58 PM
I'll just repost it.

Gen 1:1

בראשׁית ברא אלהים את השׁמים ואת הארץ׃


mind. BLOWING.

I'm never going to tire of wrapping my head around this treasure. Thank you for sharing.

carboy
Jul 25th 2008, 08:05 PM
I like the discussion about the second day and if the thought is right about the separation as an allegory of the Messiah being separated from the Father, the temporal from the eternal etc. then the third day would have a continuing pattern of sorts.

A double blessing on the third day. v10, v12, "it was good"

I've heard that traditional Jewish weddings are held on the third day, tues., because it's the day of double blessing.

This may help understanding the second day?

Ron Brown
Jul 25th 2008, 08:17 PM
God is the uncaused first cause of creation. This is the easiest way for me to apprehend creation. You will never comprehend it fully, but you can apprehend it easily.

theothersock
Jul 25th 2008, 08:29 PM
I like the discussion about the second day and if the thought is right about the separation as an allegory of the Messiah being separated from the Father, the temporal from the eternal etc. then the third day would have a continuing pattern of sorts.

A double blessing on the third day. v10, v12, "it was good"

I've heard that traditional Jewish weddings are held on the third day, tues., because it's the day of double blessing.

This may help understanding the second day?

Intriguing.

As the third day is called good, and good, the sixth is called good and very good, the seventh then is blessed and sanctified. I wonder if this correlates at all?

Seadog
Jul 30th 2008, 05:02 PM
In the beginning God. Before Lucifer’s rebellion, God was the only king; all of His children (the angels) were His subjects. Because God was the only king, there was, logically enough, only one kingdom – God’s, which was called, logically enough, the Kingdom of God.

When Lucifer rebelled and warred against God, one-third of the angels joined him. They apparently won the opening battle in this 7,000-year war, and Satan became king of the physical realm – including the earth. That’s why Christ said His kingdom is not of this world. There are but two kingdoms in the Bible, the Kingdom of God (KOG), and the Kingdom of Heaven (KOH). To see which kingdom is Christ’s and which is Satan’s notice the underlined:
Mt 12:26,28 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Since Christ obviously represents the KOG, Satan’s kingdom has to be the other one, the KOH.

I’ll briefly summarize what happened and then provide a couple of links to a fuller treatment of this issue.

A much-disputed belief about Lucifer’s rebellion says it happened during a time period between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2, which has caused the belief to be called The Gap Theory. After Michael and the other good angels lost the opening battle, God ceded to Satan the physical part of His kingdom. King Satan’s physical realm became known as the KOH. Now that the spiritual part of God’s realm, the KOG, no longer included the leavened KOH, God had to divide the two kingdoms so the leaven of Satan’s KOH wouldn’t spread to His KOG.

So on Day 2 God created the firmament and used it to separate the waters above the firmament from the waters below the firmament. It is critical to note what God put into the firmament: Gen 1:14-17 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth

That means the firmament contains our universe! And above our universe (the firmament of outer space) is a vast body of water that separates Satan’s physical KOH (the physical universe) from God’s KOG (everything outside of the waters that are the outer boundary of the universe/KOH). That's where "paradise" is, also called "the third heaven." And that is where the physically-resurrected Christ went "up" to when He ascended into heaven.

Therefore it would make sense for God to not be happy with the firmament that He created on Day 2, because it is used to divide His previously-united kingdom into two warring kingdoms.

For a chapter-and-verse Bible study (complete with illustrations) explaining in detail the firmament and the waters above and below it (including where the waters of Noah’s Flood came from and to whence they returned, click this link Noah’s Flood (http://www.theswordbearer.org/spD002_Flood.html). It will take you to a web page on which you can either read the 3-page study or view it in PDF format if you prefer.

For a chapter-and-verse Bible study explaining the details about The Gap, including more details about the literal 7-day Creation Week, click this link The Gap (http://www.theswordbearer.org/spD004_gap.html). It will take you to another web page on which you may either read the 6-page study or view it in PDF format if you prefer. It includes illustrations of God’s kingdom before it was divided, and what it looks like now that it is split into two kingdoms.

Seadog