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Jesusinmyheart
Jul 24th 2008, 10:09 PM
Amazingly i came across some scriptures which will shed light on why i believe/understand that OT stoning were very rare occurrences and not carried out often.

This to me shows the grace of God in the Law that while God did not want this to happen there were times when it needed to be done for the safety of all of His people. Yet mercy was always at the forefront.

Let me give a collection of verses that i believe will demonstrate this and harmonize the OT God with the NT

First off, when a sinner was found and a charge was brought against him, God said:

Num 35:30 "If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the evidence of witnesses. But no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness.

Deu 17:6 On the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses the one who is to die shall be put to death; a person shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness.

Deu 19:15 "A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established.

Now, here's the next process in this deal when someone accuses someone of a sin deserving death:

Deu 13:12 "If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God is giving you to dwell there,
Deu 13:13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known,
Deu 13:14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you,
Deu 13:15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword.

Deu 17:2 "If there is found among you, within any of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, in transgressing his covenant,
Deu 17:3 and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden,
Deu 17:4 and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel,
Deu 17:5 then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones.
Deu 17:6 On the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses the one who is to die shall be put to death; a person shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness.

Deu 19:15 "A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established.
Deu 19:16 If a malicious witness arises to accuse a person of wrongdoing,
Deu 19:17 then both parties to the dispute shall appear before the LORD, before the priests and the judges who are in office in those days.
Deu 19:18 The judges shall inquire diligently, and if the witness is a false witness and has accused his brother falsely,
Deu 19:19 then you shall do to him as he had meant to do to his brother. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
Deu 19:20 And the rest shall hear and fear, and shall never again commit any such evil among you.

This hearkens back to what Yeshua said when the adulterous woman was brought to Him:

Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

A witness found to be a sinner was not admitted as a witness. To top it off there had to be two or more witnesses without sin to make a case.

Furthermore i see evidence that something like this was handled very strictly in that those in authority who were able to rule on the death penalty had to be extremely careful:

Eze 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

People were not to take accusing someone to be condemned lightly, because if a person was condemned but not even given the chance to correct their behavior, then the blood of the condemned person was on them and they were guilty of murder.

This is where loving God and loving your neighbor as oneself is the Law that was given even in the OT that was supposed to be applied as a Law first and foremost above all other laws, before any others were supposed to be carried out.

This is proof to me of the mercy in the Law in the OT

Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Deu 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
Deu 10:18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.
Deu 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Deu 10:20 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.


Shalom,
Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 24th 2008, 10:15 PM
This is why we don't stone people today, and it really makes me re-consider the death penalty.

I believe there are those who certainly need to be removed from society. But in order to do so, we need to be extremely careful.

Shalom,
Tanja

keck553
Jul 24th 2008, 10:48 PM
You are spot on with your post. In fact Jesus used Torah ('the law') in perfect applcation when he questioned the ones who rudely interrupted His teaching about thier witness qualifications.

By the way, speaking of that event, check this out....

Jer 17:13 Hope of Isra'el, Adonai! All who abandon you will be ashamed, those who leave you will be inscribed in the dust, because they have abandoned Adonai, the source of living water.


I think I know what Yeshua was inscribing in the dust. And so did they. They knew Scripture.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 25th 2008, 01:37 PM
Keck,
Yes, i saw that too.... i gotta wonder about that as scripture is silent on what exactly He wrote in the Sand....If indeed that's what He did and they saw/recognised it, it likely incensed them further. But yet all of them walked out and confessing they were not sinless and therefore not reliable witnesses.

It's really amazing how much power the truth had over them.

And thus the woman was set free from her sin, by the Law and by Grace.

Shalom,
Tanja

keck553
Jul 25th 2008, 03:06 PM
See, that's where a good perspective of culture comes in handy. I am becoming convinced that most of the Jewish culture is indeed, God culture. Yeah, the Jews were human like us and perverted it, but the root of it is God-breathed. I see it in Yeshua's teachings, how strongly they relate to the culture God built in them.

Anyway, pertaining to the dust thing, when teachers taught students back then, they would get a plank, spread sand on it and write the lesson in the sand. When they were done, the simply blew it off, where it scattered into the wind, so to speak (see what I mean about culture and God using it as illustration? It was part of His plan all along). God uses the same illustration with us. Another allusion is when Yeshua says "they have their reward". When their name is written in the earth, they have thier reward in earthly things. Our names are written in Heaven, thus our reward is in Heaven, that would be present with the Father for eternity, with each moment the Father refreshing us with a new cool aspect of His creative character. In fact He does that with us if we hear (Sh'ma).

I've heard it preached once that God will open a door for us and if we don't walk through it, we get second or third best and that's it. We've missed the door and now we're out. Hogwash. God's plan for our lives is not that tenuous. If we're pursuing a relationship with God and keeping our eye on Yeshua, God finds a way for us to fit into His plan for us. I don't think we walk towards the goal without walking through the cleansing fire (all will be salted with fire), perhaps many times.The target remains fixed, but God gives us new ideas and ways to impliment His plan for us.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 25th 2008, 03:24 PM
I don't think we walk towards the goal without walking through the cleansing fire (all will be salted with fire), perhaps many times.The target remains fixed, but God gives us new ideas and ways to impliment His plan for us.I very much agree, i see God very flexible in seeing us through, and teaching us along the way. One just has to remain open to the teaching and accept what discipline God throws out.

It's no different with my children, what works for one won't work for the other, and as their roads change so may my methods, the rules stay the same but may be applied differently. Life is a journey, and training IMO God put us here to train us up to be like Him by being filled with His substance which is Yeshua/the word.

We are strangers here as we learn in this wilderness to overcome and be like Him.

Tanja

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 26th 2008, 07:15 AM
For those interested in this topic, i implore you to search the word stone and stoning and read the contetx and find that i can only find 5 instances or perhaps 6 of stoning in the OT. One has to consider this spans a good amount of time from the time on at MT Sinai, to the end of the OT. Several hundred years.

Shalom,
Tanja

ServantofTruth
Jul 26th 2008, 10:22 AM
I have said many times on different topics - Jesus did not do away with the Law, he fullfilled it. This is much more complex than a yes/ no question.

I hear people say Jesus did away with stoning, because of the woman caught in sin. Where does it say that? Perhaps when we first come to faith, that is the easy way of looking at it.

But Jesus actually said, we are going to do this totally the way you guys want - God's lawful way. Then the witnesses who didn't stop this sin happening, who were therefore as guilty as the woman and man involved, couldn't give evidence or do their duty of throwing the first stones.

It may result in the same outcome - the woman went free. But you can not say Jesus changed the Law, went against the Law. In my opinion the Law of stoning still stands, but we have to take the meaning of this story and the whole of the bible, NewTestament included, into account when applying that Law.

Lastly the 'he who is without sin' cast the first stone, could also cause confusion. At first you could take this to mean all people are sinners, so no one has the right to judge or give a sentence.

Obviously complete scripture would mean this interpretation has to be wrong - the book of Romans being the first to spring to my mind, but also the kings, judges, leaders of tribes etc in the OT. Leaders in the early church also.

This is why we need to be in the bible every day, not just read when we like or have a particular issue. Go to the scriptures relating to that issue - because for context you need the whole sealed revelation.

Thank you for this topic.




Love and God bless, BIG SofTy Servant of Truth :hug:

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 03:26 PM
Furthermore i see evidence that something like this was handled very strictly in that those in authority who were able to rule on the death penalty had to be extremely careful:

Eze 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

People were not to take accusing someone to be condemned lightly, because if a person was condemned but not even given the chance to correct their behavior, then the blood of the condemned person was on them and they were guilty of murder.

Shalom,
TanjaTanja,

Do you even know what this passage is speaking of because it has absolutely nothing to do with what you are using it for. This isn't about judging according to the Law etc. This was God telling Ezekiel that when He gives him something to say... He need say it (a prophet). If he does then it doesn't matter whether or not they accept it. There will be no blood on his hand. If he doesn't.. then their blood is on his hands.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 26th 2008, 04:09 PM
Do you even know what this passage is speaking of because it has absolutely nothing to do with what you are using it for. This isn't about judging according to the Law etc. This was God telling Ezekiel that when He gives him something to say... He need say it (a prophet). If he does then it doesn't matter whether or not they accept it. There will be no blood on his hand. If he doesn't.. then their blood is on his hands.Ken,
i know the context, however i believe it still applies to the way anyone who transgresses the Law is to be treated before extreme measures are taken.
God is not about just offing the sinner, He rather desires mercy and correction and rebuke, before death. Yeshua even said so, and that was not a new concept. If you think it was, then i believe you're missing something.

The sages/the Sanhedrin knew of this/practiced the Law of stoning in this manner before even this scenario in Ezekiel.
This is historical fact. Not in the bible.

It saddens me that you would dismiss the connection so easily.

God's Law stands whether you find it in the book of Genesis, or Ezekiel, God does not change.

I have not read the oral Law that the Jews adhere to, but i bet you if i looked i would find all of that what i wrote here verified.

I'm actually beginning to think that the Oral Law might be a good useful tool to understand scriptures better, as it gives a historical/scriptural/spiritual background. The Jews were not called God's people for no reason, they were to pass on and set and example of God's nature, and what He taught them.
That they were human and made mistakes and came to wrong conclusions is evident, but the same applies to us today, we're not free from error.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 04:44 PM
Ken,
i know the context, however i believe it still applies to the way anyone who transgresses the Law is to be treated before extreme measures are taken.
God is not about just offing the sinner, He rather desires mercy and correction and rebuke, before death. Yeshua even said so, and that was not a new concept. If you think it was, then i believe you're missing something.Tanja,

If that passage context does not support that then you can't just grab something and say context... so what?

It has nothing at all to do with your point contextually speaking. Therefore it doesn't support your point! That's how that works. Goodness... folks can make the Bible say anything they want it to say if you totally discard context.


The sages/the Sanhedrin knew of this/practiced the Law of stoning in this manner before even this scenario in Ezekiel.

This is historical fact. Not in the bible.

It saddens me that you would dismiss the connection so easily.Uh... Context Tanja. There is no connection. That is what God was telling Ezekiel nor teaching the children of Israel or us.



God's Law stands whether you find it in the book of Genesis, or Ezekiel, God does not change. Huh?



I have not read the oral Law that the Jews adhere to, but i bet you if i looked i would find all of that what i wrote here verified.

I'm actually beginning to think that the Oral Law might be a good useful tool to understand scriptures better, as it gives a historical/scriptural/spiritual background. The Jews were not called God's people for no reason, they were to pass on and set and example of God's nature, and what He taught them.

That they were human and made mistakes and came to wrong conclusions is evident, but the same applies to us today, we're not free from error.

Shalom,
TanjaI don;t know why it is that a couple of you are in here and all of the sudden you are going on about the oral law and whatnot... but I will tell you the same. This is not a Jewish forum. We do not adhere to or even care about the oral law. That mess got the Jews into a world of stink. You would do well pondering that. It also is not going to be tossed around on this board for any consideration or discussion by you or others. It means nothing.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 26th 2008, 05:50 PM
Ken,
what God tells his servant in Ezekiel is a Law, a Law of grace. Do you propose that does not apply in earlier times? Like say In Deuteronomy? God gave grace to Adam and Eve from the beginning.....
God said to love your neighbor as yourself, that is in line with what God is saying Here in Ezekiel.

It speaks of God's character, and as such it doesn't matter in what context the happening is in, it applies everywhere.

Context.....i have seen and read some of your replies in which you're guilty of the same. I would rather call this a matter of perspective.


I don't know why it is that a couple of you are in here and all of the sudden you are going on about the oral law and whatnot... but I will tell you the same. This is not a Jewish forum.Then you might as well scrap bible chat as Yeshua was totally Jewish. :rolleyes:

He for one never said it was wrong to wash hands before eating, however he rebuked the Pharisees in their view that eating with unwashed hands made one unclean. They made it a Law and enforced it upon people.
Yeshua never said: do not bother washing your hands anymore.....
Don't you wash your hands before eating?

All that Yeshua taught was what Jews were teaching too, only difference is He taught it from the perspective of the Spirit.

Mat 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
Mat 23:3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.
Mat 23:4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.
Mat 23:5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,
Mat 23:6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues
Mat 23:7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.


I'm not trying to preach oral Law, because i don't even know it, i was just referring to it.
The same way that the "613 Laws of Moses" refer to the ten commandments, so that one can gain a deeper meaning and understanding of the Royal Law.
It doesn't make the 613 useless, but rather useful if one wants to get a better understanding of what "Do not murder means." I believe the Jews have much to impart in understanding through out the 2000 years God watched over them from the First man on til the time that people were called His chosen people the Israelites. You can't declare 2000 years of teaching as meaningless. Because it isn't. What was meaningless to God was people living a holy life for show, and without respect and care while rejecting the Holy Spirit. That doesn't mean that the things which were written by the sages is totally bunk or void, because there were those who did have the Spirit, and a true love for God.
Not all Pharisees were the bad guys in the scriptures.



We do not adhere to or even care about the oral law. That mess got the Jews into a world of stink. You would do well pondering that. It also is not going to be tossed around on this board for any consideration or discussion by you or others. It means nothing.
The Jews got into a stink not because of the Oral Law, but rather because they did not circumcise their hearts and accept the Holy Spirit.
That was the issue at hand the Law is not the issue.
As for adhering to it, i'm very careful what i adhere to and why, if my motive is to boast in front of man my holiness then it's useless and like filthy rags...... If i'm doing it because i love God and i want to please Him, then that's the right way. I also want to be sure it lines up with scripture.
Also, i'm certainly not going to adhere to any sort of fence laws the Jews came up with, that God never gave. I do not shy away from cooking on the sabbath if it feeds a hungry person. I do not sit there not lifting a dirty diaper for fear of being accused of working... stuff like that is ridiculous.

Shalom,
Tanja

ProjectPeter
Jul 26th 2008, 06:02 PM
Ken,
what God tells his servant in Ezekiel is a Law, a Law of grace. Do you propose that does not apply in earlier times? Like say In Deuteronomy? God gave grace to Adam and Eve from the beginning.....
God said to love your neighbor as yourself, that is in line with what God is saying Here in Ezekiel.

It speaks of God's character, and as such it doesn't matter in what context the happening is in, it applies everywhere.Uh... it certainly matters the context.

Context.....i have seen and read some of your replies in which you're guilty of the same. I would rather call this a matter of perspective.[/quote]
Tanja,

It is out of context. Out of context is out of context. It is an example of folks grabbing passages all over the Bible so as they can make their own little doctrines sound right and good. Problem is... it is still out of context and it doesn't matter a lick how one spins it. ;)

And no... I don't use it out of context and take great pains to do so hence the reason you will very rarely see me post just a single verse from ten different books and chapters of the Bible. I want to make sure to get that context in there so folks can see where I am speaking in context. :rolleyes:

This here, what you are doing... this is not even an interpretation difference which is why most holler "out of context". This is just plain whacked out of context.



Then you might as well scrap bible chat as Yeshua was totally Jewish. :rolleyes:

He for one never said it was wrong to wash hands before eating, however he rebuked the Pharisees in their view that eating with unwashed hands made one unclean. Not to say do not bother washing your hands anymore.....
Don't you wash your hands before eating?

All that Yeshua taught was what Jews were teaching too, only difference is He taught it from the perspective of the Spirit.

I'm not trying to preach oral Law, because i don't even know it, i was just referring to it.
The same way that the "613 Laws of Moses" refer to the ten commandments, so that one can gain a deeper meaning and understanding of the Royal Law.
It doesn't make the 613 useless, but rather usefull if one wants to get a better understanding of what "Do not muder means." I believe the Jews have much to impart in understanding through out the 2000 years God watched over them from the First man on til the time that people were called His chosen people the Israelites. You can't declare 2000 years of teaching as meaningless. Because it isn't. What was meaningless to God was people living a holy life for show, and without respect and care while rejecting the Holy Spirit. That doesn't mean that the things which were written by the sages is totally bunk or void, because there were those who did have the Spirit, and a trule love for God.
Not all Pharisees were the bad guys in the scriptures.



The Jews got into a stink not because of the Oral Law, but rather because they did not circumcise their hearts and accept the Holy Spirit.
That was the issue at hand the Law is not the issue.
As for adhering to it, i'm very careful what i adhere to and why, if my motive is to boast in front of man my holiness then it's useless...... If i'm doing it because i love God and i want to please Him, then that's the right way. I also want to be sure it lines up with scripture.
Also, i'm certainly not going to adhere to any sort of fence laws the Jews came up with, that God never gave. I do not shy away from cooking on the sabbath if it feeds a hungry person. I do not sit there not lifting a dirty diaper for fear of being accused of working... stuff like that is rediculous.

Shalom,
TanjaLet me say it again ... this is not a Jewish forum. We do not adhere to that as you very well know. We are not talking about the oral laws in here nor are we recommending folks to look into them. It is nonsense and yes... that mess got them in trouble hence their fence laws or whatever you guys call it. This too will be the end of this discussion on the open board.