PDA

View Full Version : Christs Use of Parables



Firstfruits
Jul 26th 2008, 11:11 AM
To the multitudes:
Mt 13:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mt 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

To the Disciples
Mt 13:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
Mt 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mt 13:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mt 13:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Mk 4:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
Mk 4:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Christs parable on the law
Mt 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mt 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Christs explanation of the parable on the law to the Disciples
Lk 24:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Lk 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Lk 24:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Lk 24:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Lk 24:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Lk 24:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) And ye are witnesses of these things.

The disciples were witnesses of the thing that were written about Jesus that he would fulfill, without Christs explanation what he said would not be understood.

The amount of times it is written that Jesus spoke to the multitude yet they understood not, so if we only have the parable without the explanation/meaning then can we understand?

Firstfruits

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 26th 2008, 11:14 AM
The amount of times it is written that Jesus spoke to the multitude yet they understood not, so if we only have the parable without the explanation/meaning then can we understand?
Yes, we can with the help of the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth.

Tanja

Firstfruits
Jul 26th 2008, 11:23 AM
Yes, we can with the help of the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth.

Tanja

But then you still have the explanation/meaning don't you?

What happens if you do not have the meaning/explanation?

If Jesus had not explained this parable would it have been understood?
Mt 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mt 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Firstfruits

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 26th 2008, 11:35 AM
There's been a time when i couldn't even quite understanmd the explanation given after those parables.

I'm not sure what you are asking when you say:

What happens if you do not have the meaning/explanation?

In my case i was frustrated, because i realized i could not understand. But what all of this did for me, was i clung to the Word stubbornly, and refused to let go, asking God for understanding, and one day i let it all go asking Him to reveal it to me giving me His understanding. And that's the day things started to become clear.

I think God does test us in our persistence.

Tanja

Firstfruits
Jul 26th 2008, 11:46 AM
There's been a time when i couldn't even quite understand the explanation given after those parables.

I'm not sure what you are asking when you say:


In my case i was frustrated, because i realized i could not understand. But what all of this did for me, was i clung to the Word stubbornly, and refused to let go, asking God for understanding, and one day i let it all go asking Him to reveal it to me giving me His understanding. And that's the day things started to become clear.

I think God does test us in our persistence.

Tanja

I hear what you are saying, but how does that answer the question?

If Jesus had not given the meaning/explanation for this parable would it have been understood?
Mt 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mt 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

If an explanation has been given regarding a parable of Jesus, by Jesus, are we to accept it or to look for another meaning as you would have without the the explanation/meaning?

Firstfruits

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 26th 2008, 01:55 PM
If Jesus had not given the meaning/explanation for this parable would it have been understood?
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.The above is not a parable!!?
Are you trying to bait me?


If an explanation has been given regarding a parable of Jesus, by Jesus, are we to accept it or to look for another meaning as you would have without the the explanation/meaning?This is the beauty of the Word, an explanation can be and is what it is on the surface reading, but It is not beyond God to reveal more depth to any truth.

I could say more about how important the historical and cultural background can be in order to understand scriptural things, but i'm not going to harp on that.

Shalom,
Tanja

Firstfruits
Jul 26th 2008, 03:11 PM
The above is not a parable!!?
Are you trying to bait me?
This is the beauty of the Word, an explanation can be and is what it is on the surface reading, but It is not beyond God to reveal more depth to any truth.

I could say more about how important the historical and cultural background can be in order to understand scriptural things, but I'm not going to harp on that.

Shalom,
Tanja

With regards to the following Jesus did not speak to the multitude unless it was a parable, and it was only explained to the disciples when they were away from the multitude.

Mk 4:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
Mk 4:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Christs parable on the law
Mt 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mt 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So I am not trying to bait you. Even if it was not a parable the question still stands because Jesus did explain what he meant.

Firstfruits

Diolectic
Jul 26th 2008, 03:41 PM
The amount of times it is written that Jesus spoke to the multitude yet they understood not, so if we only have the parable without the explanation/meaning then can we understand? Yes, we can with the help of the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth.

TanjaWhy then, do people have diferent explainations of the same parable?

How many people agree with me on these:
1) The sower of seed: Mat 13:3-8, Mat.13:19-23 (Evangelistic) Never is told who the sower is, but we know that redeamed men preach the Gosple(sows the seed)
If it were God doing the sowing, He wouldn't sow were it wouldn't produce fruit more-less sow were devils would eat the seed.

2) Wheat & tares: Mat 13:24-30, Matthew 13:38-43 (apocalyptic)
God knows who is His, He divides at the end.

3) The mustered sead: Mat 13:31-32 (reality of the Kingdom)
mustered seads do not become trees.
This is telling us that the plant mutates into something that it shouldn't be.
The birds, as we learn are devils.
They nest in the "branches"
What are the branches in the Chruch?
Denominations!

4) The woman and leven: Mat 13:33 (reality of the Kingdom)
The leaven is variuos false doctrines, the "three measures of meal" are the basic true Doctrines of Christianity.

5) Wheat and Tares explained explained: Mat 13:37-43 (apocalyptic):

6) A treasure hid in a field: Mat 13:44 (Evangelistic)
The Field is ripe for the harvest.
Pray the Lord of the harvest to send workers into the feild.
The field is the world and the hidden treasure are the souls of man who are in that feild, that man who sold everything to buy that field is the Christian that gives his life up for the Kingdom to preach the Gosple.
Furthermore, Jesus never sold anything, He gave it all up. We are never told in Scripture that Christ redeems a feild or a land.
But men go to lands to preach to the souls in the land.

7) The Pearl of great price: Mat 13:45-46 (the effect of evangelizing)
The effect of evangelizing is the Truth being spread so that people searching for truth may find the Great Truth!
The Pearl of great price is about a man who is looking for the truth and when he found the Truth, went and sold all that he had, and bought It. Proverb 23:23 & Job 28:12 & Job 28:18 & Mat 7:6

8) The Dragnet: Mat 13:47-50 (Apocalyptic)
God reveals those whom are His, He divides at the end.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 26th 2008, 04:14 PM
Why then, do people have diferent explainations of the same parable?

I would answer this by saying that each person is at a different level of depth with God in their walk. What a 5 year old understands and or perceives may not be what a 25 year old understands and or perceives.
Yet both may perceive the truth.

One's understanding may be more shallow than another's.


Shalom,
Tanja

Firstfruits
Jul 26th 2008, 05:28 PM
I would answer this by saying that each person is at a different level of depth with God in their walk. What a 5 year old understands and or perceives may not be what a 25 year old understands and or perceives.
Yet both may perceive the truth.

One's understanding may be more shallow than another's.


Shalom,
Tanja

Do you believe that Jesus or the Holy Spirit would give us different meanings or explanations for the same parable?

Firstfruits

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 26th 2008, 06:05 PM
Do you believe that Jesus or the Holy Spirit would give us different meanings or explanations for the same parable?
I believe Yeshua would give each of us what we are capable of handling.

You would not give an infant a piece of meat to eat would you? Likewise why would one give a grown up breast milk?

It's a matter of maturity IMO. Some only are given the very surface meaning of understanding a parable, while others may see the same thing on a much deeper level with more substance. And therefore to some it might appear different.

Shalom,
Tanja

Diolectic
Jul 26th 2008, 08:30 PM
I believe Yeshua would give each of us what we are capable of handling.Okay, but what about a diferent meanings?
You are talking about levels of truth with the same meaning/interpretation of one parable.

I am talking about how some one couild have a diferent meaning/interpretation to the same parable.


You would not give an infant a piece of meat to eat would you? Likewise why would one give a grown up breast milk?True, again however, you are discribing parables with the same meanings/interpretations, just shallower or deeper according to the ability to understand.


It's a matter of maturity IMO. Some only are given the very surface meaning of understanding a parable, while others may see the same thing on a much deeper level with more substance. And therefore to some it might appear different.

Shalom,
TanjaI'm talking about one parable, with two people having a diferent meanings/interpretations, not a diferent levels of understanding.

I've been in a thred where the question was about who the "pearl of great price" is.
There was two diferent meanings of who would be the pearl is, Christ or the other meanings would be that the pearl is a seeker of truth.
This is not diferent levels of understanding but diferent interpretations, two meanings.
It can not be both are correct, otherwise jesus would not have given the correct interpretations of the ones He did tell us of.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 26th 2008, 08:43 PM
Dioletic,

I see what you are saying. And perhaps you misunderstood me, because i meant that not necessarily does there ahve to be a total agreement in views of a scripture or verse.
Meat is not and dos not look like milk, but to the one eating it it leads to being nourished.

One understanding one thing could be the next step to maturity for one person, but be different from another person's view and understanding.

I'm not saying that this is always the case and that both are always right.

What makes a difference too is whether one learns from God or from man.
Whether one listens to the Holy Spirit or to mass teaching.

Example, they used to teach butter was bad for you, and to eat margerine instead.

While i could not explain it, but understood that in margerine some molecules are removed or something like that, i did not agree and stuck to butter all these years.

A few years ago they came out with a study that margerine was not any better than butter or something to that effect, and that the molecular make up of butter was only a slight bit different than plastic.

In the same way i see there seems to be fads in the teaching and understanding of scriptures. Some old and some not so old. It's man's understanding and not God's.

Hence there are differences. We are told to test the Spirit and everything needs to line up with scripture.

Not sure that satisfies what you wanted to get out of me.

Tanja

BroRog
Jul 26th 2008, 11:46 PM
I think the parables have one and only one objective meaning. And we CAN know the meaning. However, it isn't easy to know. It takes work.

Human communication can be broken down into two main groups: direct communication and indirect communication. Sometimes, when direct communication doesn't work, e.g. when people don't want to listen or hear what Jesus has to say, he uses parables, which are indirect. To the uninitiated, parables are simply stories and demand nothing of the listener. But for those who want to know, the parable offers truth to those who are willing to work with the parable until the meaning is understood.

Ron Brown
Jul 27th 2008, 12:24 AM
When Jesus spoke in parables in confounded and stumped the faithless educated Pharisees, yet the uneducated masses understood Jesus because they had faith in his words. The parables were to communicate truth to the believers who had faith in Christ, not the faithless unbelievers. It's simple, yet genius.

Firstfruits
Jul 27th 2008, 10:23 AM
I would answer this by saying that each person is at a different level of depth with God in their walk. What a 5 year old understands and or perceives may not be what a 25 year old understands and or perceives.
Yet both may perceive the truth.

One's understanding may be more shallow than another's.


Shalom,
Tanja

With Jesus there were only two levels, according to to the following, those that were his and those that were on the outside;

Mk 4:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
Mk 4:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

The disciples were all different, but they all received the same message/explanation, of the the parable given.

The same applied the the parable of the law.

Christs parable on the law
Mt 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mt 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Christs explanation of the parable on the law to the Disciples
Lk 24:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Lk 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Lk 24:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Lk 24:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Lk 24:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Lk 24:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) And ye are witnesses of these things.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 27th 2008, 10:31 AM
I believe Yeshua would give each of us what we are capable of handling.

You would not give an infant a piece of meat to eat would you? Likewise why would one give a grown up breast milk?

It's a matter of maturity IMO. Some only are given the very surface meaning of understanding a parable, while others may see the same thing on a much deeper level with more substance. And therefore to some it might appear different.

Shalom,
Tanja

The Disciples all received the same, of else there would be confusion as to which Disciples Gospel we should follow.

Mk 4:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
Mk 4:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mk 4:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Mk 4:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
Mk 4:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 27th 2008, 10:41 AM
I think the parables have one and only one objective meaning. And we CAN know the meaning. However, it isn't easy to know. It takes work.

Human communication can be broken down into two main groups: direct communication and indirect communication. Sometimes, when direct communication doesn't work, e.g. when people don't want to listen or hear what Jesus has to say, he uses parables, which are indirect. To the uninitiated, parables are simply stories and demand nothing of the listener. But for those who want to know, the parable offers truth to those who are willing to work with the parable until the meaning is understood.

When Jesus explained the parable of the law he used the scriptures.

Christs explanation of the parable on the law to the Disciples
Lk 24:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Lk 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Lk 24:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Lk 24:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Lk 24:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Lk 24:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) And ye are witnesses of these things.

Using the scriptures the Disciples had a point of reference that could be checked which would give one meaning or outcome, and as Jesus said they were witnesses of those things. The meaning of the parable could not be mistaken.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 27th 2008, 10:51 AM
When Jesus spoke in parables in confounded and stumped the faithless educated Pharisees, yet the uneducated masses understood Jesus because they had faith in his words. The parables were to communicate truth to the believers who had faith in Christ, not the faithless unbelievers. It's simple, yet genius.

It was not for those on the outside to know the meaning or to understand the mysteries of God even the Disciples that were among the multitude when Jesus gave his parables did not understand until they were in private with Jesus and then he would explain to them the meaning.

Mk 4:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
Mk 4:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Firstfruits

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 27th 2008, 01:55 PM
The Disciples all received the same, of else there would be confusion as to which Disciples Gospel we should follow.

Mk 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
Mk 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mk 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Mk 4:33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
Mk 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
They all were given the same food, i agree, but that doesn't mean they all got out of it the exact same amount of understanding. Someone's metabolism is slower/different than another's.

By the time the gosples were written they all were on the same page no doubt, but tell me, are not some harder to understand or deeper in meaning than others? I still see differences, however they are not extremely significiant, and the fundamentals are evident in all of the writers. Also, did all 12 write books?

I hardly ever see you quoting James.... but plenty of Galatians. When the apostles were traveling with Yeshua we see they were at different stages in their walk with Him.

Aren't we all getting the same food today? Then how come you have those who are babies in Christ spalshing at the shore, and those who are in the deep end of the water?

Tanja

Diolectic
Jul 27th 2008, 02:29 PM
Dioletic,
Not sure that satisfies what you wanted to get out of me.

Tanja

I like what you said, here:
One understanding one thing could be the next step to maturity for one person, but be different from another person's view and understanding.

I'm not saying that this is always the case and that both are always right.

What makes a difference too is whether one learns from God or from man.
Whether one listens to the Holy Spirit or to mass teaching. Meat is not and dos not look like milk, but to the one eating it it leads to being nourished.This is good.

Firstfruits
Jul 27th 2008, 03:57 PM
They all were given the same food, i agree, but that doesn't mean they all got out of it the exact same amount of understanding. Some one's metabolism is slower/different than another's.

By the time the gospels were written they all were on the same page no doubt, but tell me, are not some harder to understand or deeper in meaning than others? I still see differences, however they are not extremely significant, and the fundamentals are evident in all of the writers. Also, did all 12 write books?

I hardly ever see you quoting James.... but plenty of Galatians. When the apostles were traveling with Yeshua we see they were at different stages in their walk with Him.

Aren't we all getting the same food today? Then how come you have those who are babies in Christ splashing at the shore, and those who are in the deep end of the water?

Tanja

Jesus said that they were witnesses to what he had explained to them concerning himself, so there was no doubt as to what he meant.

Christs explanation of the parable on the law to the Disciples
Lk 24:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Lk 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Lk 24:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Lk 24:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Lk 24:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Remember that Jesus told them the meaning after his resurrection. So what Jesus said had already been fulfilled and they were witnesses, so no confusion. The message is still the same and has not changed regarding what happened to Jesus and what we are to preach.

The parables Jesus gave to the multitudes were explained to the Disciples, and as with his explanation of the parable of the law the meanings can be checked using the scriptures.

An example we could use is the Sermon on the mount, each section can be checked comparing scripture with scripture.

If you would like those scriptures then let me know and then you will see that it may not be as hard as you believe, it just needs work comparing scripture with scripture as did the Bereans.

Acts 17:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 27th 2008, 06:04 PM
If they on the outside had understood what Jesus had said they would not have killed him, and that which was spoken of him would not have been fulfilled.

1 Cor 2:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1 Cor 2:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Cor 2:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1 Cor 2:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Lk 23:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Firstfruits

Mograce2U
Jul 28th 2008, 02:05 AM
Aren't we all getting the same food today? Then how come you have those who are babies in Christ spalshing at the shore, and those who are in the deep end of the water?

Tanja

(Mark 4:23-25 KJV) If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. {24} And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given. {25} For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

You also have those who spit out much of what they eat before they even swallow it! (Just going with the analogy ;)) You will always have those who only approach the word devotionally, while others search diligently to compare what they hear. It would seem more light is given to those who earnestly desire to find understanding.

Firstfruits
Jul 28th 2008, 12:25 PM
(Mark 4:23-25 KJV) If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. {24} And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given. {25} For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

You also have those who spit out much of what they eat before they even swallow it! (Just going with the analogy ;)) You will always have those who only approach the word devotionally, while others search diligently to compare what they hear. It would seem more light is given to those who earnestly desire to find understanding.


Thanks Mograce2U,

Where have all the Berean's gone?

God bless You!

Firstfruits

BadDog
Jul 28th 2008, 01:56 PM
Quick response: IMO in trying to interpret parables the thing to do first-of-all is to discern the main point of the parable. Stick to that, and don't try to dig too deep theologically outside that. The purpose of the parables was to stir us up and change lives... not theology.

So personally I avoid using parables to support my theology.

BD

Firstfruits
Jul 28th 2008, 03:10 PM
Quick response: IMO in trying to interpret parables the thing to do first-of-all is to discern the main point of the parable. Stick to that, and don't try to dig too deep theologically outside that. The purpose of the parables was to stir us up and change lives... not theology.

So personally I avoid using parables to support my theology.

BD


The parable used here according to Jesus was already fulfilled, as they were witnesses to those things concerning Jesus.

Christs parable on the law
Mt 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mt 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Christs explanation of the parable on the law to the Disciples
Lk 24:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Lk 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Lk 24:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Lk 24:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Lk 24:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Lk 24:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) And ye are witnesses of these things.

Is it accepted that these things have been fulfilled?

Lk 24:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Lk 24:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

This is Christs explanation of his parable of the law, so I would agree that if a parable is used regarding doctrine we should be able to check if what is being apllied/believed regarding the parable is scriptual.

How many people know that every time Jesus spoke to the mutitudes it was by parables and no more? Yet we have doctrine based only on the parable without the meaning or explanation as in the parable of the law.

Christs parable on the law
Mt 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mt 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Firstfruits

BadDog
Jul 28th 2008, 06:48 PM
First Fruits,

Nice username. :P

Those three listed are not considered to be parables. Parables are the use of illustration to teach. No illustrations there.

Thx,

BD

keck553
Jul 28th 2008, 08:53 PM
Actually parables were predominate in Israel. Many existed that were even parallel to Yeshua's parables. Parables were not difficult for most Jews who were discipled under people such as Gameleil to understand. The 12 Yeshua discipled were relatively religiously uneducated (and therefore the most unpolluted) and may not have studied Rashi or some of the other sages who wrote parables.

People, and especially the Torah teachers and Pharisees were amazed at His teachings, because the DID understand.

Where the parables become most difficult is where the Greek worldview twists the context into the Platonian cave analogy.

I love the parables of Yeshua.

BadDog
Jul 28th 2008, 09:52 PM
Actually parables were predominate in Israel. Many existed that were even parallel to Yeshua's parables. Parables were not difficult for most Jews who were discipled under people such as Gameleil to understand. The 12 Yeshua discipled were relatively religiously uneducated (and therefore the most unpolluted) and may not have studied Rashi or some of the other sages who wrote parables.

People, and especially the Torah teachers and Pharisees were amazed at His teachings, because the DID understand.

Where the parables become most difficult is where the Greek worldview twists the context into the Platonian cave analogy.

I love the parables of Yeshua.Amen!

Mark 4:33, 34 He would speak the word to them with many parables like these, as they were able to hear. And He did not speak to them without a parable. Privately, however, He would explain everything to His own disciples.

(The Message) With many stories like these, he presented his message to them, fitting the stories to their experience and maturity. He was never without a story when he spoke. When he was alone with his disciples, he went over everything, sorting out the tangles, untying the knots.

Acts 4:13 Observing the boldness of Peter and John and realizing them to be uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed and recognized that they had been with Jesus.

BD

Firstfruits
Jul 29th 2008, 08:11 AM
First Fruits,

Nice username. :P

Those three listed are not considered to be parables. Parables are the use of illustration to teach. No illustrations there.

Thx,

BD

This is what was said to the multitude; Mt 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mt 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This was Christs explanation of what he said to the multitude; Lk 24:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Lk 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Lk 24:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, Lk 24:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Lk 24:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Lk 24:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) And ye are witnesses of these things.

We may not consider them to be parables, but Jesus only spoke to the multitudes in parables.

Mk 4:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Firstfruits

BadDog
Jul 29th 2008, 02:09 PM
Firstfruits,

I will not get into petty arguments about whether or not something is a parable. If you think it is-fine. Go with that. What's your point? In your OP you asked for help regarding interpreting parables.

The point remains that when Jesus used parables to teach He did so to make a point clear. Focus on that point and don't get side-tracked. That's my expressed philosophy for interpreting parables. If you want to debate about this, sorry, but I'm not interested in that.

BTW, Jesus' interpretation of parables often follows them in the gospels. Or if you want to avoid them, stick with John's gospel - it contains no parables. (Please don't argue with me about this. Find a published book on parables or even a website dealing with them and see if you can find any from John.)

I suggest the following book:

The Hard Sayings of Jesus by FF Bruce

Have fun. I'm done here.

BD

Firstfruits
Jul 29th 2008, 02:47 PM
Firstfruits,

I will not get into petty arguments about whether or not something is a parable. If you think it is-fine. Go with that. What's your point? In your OP you asked for help regarding interpreting parables.

The point remains that when Jesus used parables to teach He did so to make a point clear. Focus on that point and don't get side-tracked. That's my expressed philosophy for interpreting parables. If you want to debate about this, sorry, but I'm not interested in that.

BTW, Jesus' interpretation of parables often follows them in the gospels. Or if you want to avoid them, stick with John's gospel - it contains no parables. (Please don't argue with me about this. Find a published book on parables or even a website dealing with them and see if you can find any from John.)

I suggest the following book:

The Hard Sayings of Jesus by FF Bruce

Have fun. I'm done here.

BD

Mk 4:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Why do you believe they are not parables?

Why do you believe there are no parables in John, knowing that Jesus spoke to the multitudes and pharisees?

Jn 10:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

Jn 16:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs/parables: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs/parables, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

I hope that answers your question that John surly has parables.

Firstfruits

keck553
Jul 29th 2008, 03:11 PM
They knew who He was.

Just as some of us today know and continue to trade His gift for our earthly rewards.

No difference.

Firstfruits
Jul 29th 2008, 03:13 PM
According to the following Jesus said that there will be a time when he shall no longer use proverbs/parbles but shall speak plainly;
Jn 16:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs/parables: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs/parables, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

Isaiah tells us;
Is 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Is 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Is 6:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

Firstfruits

keck553
Jul 29th 2008, 03:39 PM
I always get confused with the KJ translations. A little context is needed here:

Joh 16:21 When a woman is giving birth, she is in pain; because her time has come. But when the baby is born, she forgets her suffering out of joy that a child has come into the world.
Joh 16:22 So you do indeed feel grief now, but I am going to see you again. Then your hearts will be full of joy, and no one will take your joy away from you.
Joh 16:23 "When that day comes, you won't ask anything of me! Yes, indeed! I tell you that whatever you ask from the Father, he will give you in my name.
Joh 16:24 Till now you haven't asked for anything in my name. Keep asking, and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.
Joh 16:25 "I have said these things to you with the help of illustrations; however, a time is coming when I will no longer speak indirectly but will talk about the Father in plain language.
Joh 16:26 When that day comes, you will ask in my name. I am not telling you that I will pray to the Father on your behalf,
Joh 16:27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
Joh 16:28 "I came from the Father and have come into the world; again, I am leaving the world and returning to the Father."
Joh 16:29 The talmidim said to him, "Look, you're talking plainly right now, you're not speaking indirectly at all.
Joh 16:30 Now we know that you know everything, and that you don't need to have people put their questions into words. This makes us believe that you came from God."
Joh 16:31 Yeshua answered, "Now you do believe.
Joh 16:32 But a time is coming — indeed it has come already —when you will be scattered, each one looking out for himself; and you will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone; because the Father is with me. Joh 16:33 "I have said these things to you so that, united with me, you may have shalom. In the world, you have tsuris. But be brave! I have conquered the world!"

Yeshua spoke in the language of the Jews (by parable) to help them understand His teachings in relation to the culture God created within their nation. Revelation comes from within, not without. Once the disciples had the revelation, Yeshua could be direct.

There is no doubt in my mind that most of the Pharisees and Saducees knew Yeshua was sent by the Father. Their choice was to give up all their pomp and circumstance, repent and obey the Torah as it was meant to be obeyed, or reject it for their perceived assurance of a self-centered comfy and prosperous life. This isn't so difficult to believe, just look around you. Turn on one of the church channels and check out the white suited prosperity teachers who teach all God's law is annuled except for one. "And send that check in now, your blessing depends on it." Do you think they would trade thier pomp in for Jesus?

BadDog
Jul 29th 2008, 05:04 PM
Mk 4:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Why do you believe they are not parables?

Why do you believe there are no parables in John, knowing that Jesus spoke to the multitudes and pharisees?

Jn 10:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

Jn 16:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs/parables: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs/parables, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

I hope that answers your question that John surly has parables.

Firstfruits

John 10:6 and 16:25 both use παροιμία (PAROIMIA) not παραβολή (PARABOLĀ). This is true for both the Alexandrian Greek manuscripts and the Textus Receptus upon which the KJV NT was based. The KJV simply mistranslated those verses. The word means "illustration."

Now I grant you that Jesus does use some illustrations in John's gospel, but they are not technically parables. All illustrations need to be translated carefully. The principle of looking for the main point applies there as well. In general do not base your theologies on such illustrations. Of course they must agree with didactic scripture, but one of the basic hermaneutic principles is to not derive doctrine from narrative literature, such as the gospels and Acts.

The purpose of the gospels, in general, was to present Jesus. God used Paul and Peter and others to teach doctrines in letters specifically written for such purposes.

But John's gospel contains not parables (παραβολή - PARABOLĀ).

Now I think that further participation in this thread may be a waste of your and my time, as I just wanted to share some things in answer to your OP questions, not to get into a debate over what constitutes a parable. But this is becoming a contest, and I don't think it is honoring to our Lord. So thanks for your comments.

Take care, and I hope you get your questions answered to your satisfaction.

BD

Firstfruits
Jul 29th 2008, 06:45 PM
John 10:6 and 16:25 both use παροιμία (PAROIMIA) not παραβολή (PARABOLĀ). This is true for both the Alexandrian Greek manuscripts and the Textus Receptus upon which the KJV NT was based. The KJV simply mistranslated those verses. The word means "illustration."

Now I grant you that Jesus does use some illustrations in John's gospel, but they are not technically parables. All illustrations need to be translated carefully. The principle of looking for the main point applies there as well. In general do not base your theologies on such illustrations. Of course they must agree with didactic scripture, but one of the basic hermeneutical principles is to not derive doctrine from narrative literature, such as the gospels and Acts.

The purpose of the gospels, in general, was to present Jesus. God used Paul and Peter and others to teach doctrines in letters specifically written for such purposes.

But John's gospel contains not parables (παραβολή - PARABOLĀ).

BD

From YPOV what is the difference between a parable or a proverb or an illustration?

Do they not all need to be translated carefully in order to be understood correctly?

We know that only a remnant of Israel shall be saved and it is the true meaning of the parables they could not see;
Rom 11:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

This is in fulfilment of the prophet Isaiah, as long as Jesus spoke to the multitude he did not use plain speech.

What is the meaning of παροιμία (PAROIMIA)?

How long did God say this would last?
Is 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Is 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Thanks

Firstfruits

keck553
Jul 29th 2008, 07:22 PM
The difference is that the leadership and most Jews DID understand the illustrations Jesus used, as they were a normal path to a teaching.

They simply disobeyed out of their own gluttony.

Joey Porter
Jul 29th 2008, 08:26 PM
Understanding the parables is the key to understanding the kingdom of heaven. If we don't have an understanding of the parables, we can't even begin to understand the kingdom, and what Yahweh is doing in it.

Actually, the whole bible is basically a living parable. All of the OT stories, while true historical accounts, are representative of higher spiritual truths. As well as the stories in the gospels. Everything that has been recorded in scripture is in there for the sake of us learning about higher spiritual truths.

Christ's parables (along with much more) should be showing us what is inside of us.

Remember that He said the kingdom is within us. So, when He gives us a parable that starts off by saying "The kingdom of heaven is like," basically He could just as easily be saying "Within you is like."

So, the Truth is, we all have a pharisee AND a tax collector praying in the temple within us. We all have a prodigal son and a jealous older brother within us. We all have a part of us that wants to build our house on the sand or a part that wants to build our house on the rock, etc...

The parables give us more insight into the conflict that goes on within all of us, and they also give us insight into much, much more.

keck553
Jul 29th 2008, 08:34 PM
Cool post! And yes, we are all hypocrites. So is the aim to catch the hypocrasy while it's being birthed in the heart, and to repent before it manifests through our actions??

BadDog
Jul 29th 2008, 09:17 PM
From YPOV what is the difference between a parable or a proverb or an illustration?

Do they not all need to be translated carefully in order to be understood correctly?

We know that only a remnant of Israel shall be saved and it is the true meaning of the parables they could not see;
Rom 11:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

This is in fulfilment of the prophet Isaiah, as long as Jesus spoke to the multitude he did not use plain speech.

What is the meaning of παροιμία (PAROIMIA)?

How long did God say this would last?
Is 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Is 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Thanks

Firstfruits
FF,

I told you that I got involved with this thread to help out. I didn't realize you started this thread to beat a drum. The fact remains, FWIW, that John's gospel contains no parables.

παροιμία (PAROIMIA) basically refers to an illustration. A parable is a specific type of poetic illustration with a single main point used by Jesus and probably other rabbis at the time. A παροιμία is according to Liddell and Scott "a by-word, common saying, proverb, maxim, saw, as the saying goes"
Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.

A PARABOLA is according to Liddell and Scott "juxta-position or comparison," Plat. It is a comparison, illustration, analogy, a fictitious narrative by which some religious or moral lesson is conveyed, N.T., a by-word, a proverb,
Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.

Yes, they are related. A parable is a fictitious story by which a single particular point is being conveyed. Other illustrations may have more than one point being made. Earlier I said that with parables in particular that we needed to find the big idea and stick with that. No rabbit trials allowed. The reason is that in a parable Jesus had one main point to make. It was usually obvious. But we need to find it and stick to it.

It's so easy to try to get cute and find all these other ideas not intended by Jesus in His parable. It happens more easily with parables than with any other sort of NT teaching.

But in general hermaneutics teaches that doctrines are to be founded on didactic literature, and supported by narrative literature... not the other way around.

Now, take care. I'm done here. Incidentally, the book I suggested by Bruce is the definitive work on parables. Really quite good. I don't agree with everything he says, and I don't imagine you would either. But it's a good resource. You can probably get it thru Amazon online very reasonably.

Oh, as was pointed out above, often those parables spoke about the kingdom of God. How to gain entrance, etc.. The focus is on the Messiah - Jesus.

BD

Firstfruits
Jul 29th 2008, 09:39 PM
FF,

I told you that I got involved with this thread to help out. I didn't realize you started this thread to beat a drum. The fact remains, FWIW, that John's gospel contains no parables.

παροιμία (PAROIMIA) basically refers to an illustration. A parable is a specific type of poetic illustration with a single main point used by Jesus and probably other rabbis at the time. A παροιμία is according to Liddell and Scott "a by-word, common saying, proverb, maxim, saw, as the saying goes"
Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.

A PARABOLA is according to Liddell and Scott "juxta-position or comparison," Plat. It is a comparison, illustration, analogy, a fictitious narrative by which some religious or moral lesson is conveyed, N.T., a by-word, a proverb,
Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.

Yes, they are related. A parable is a fictitious story by which a single particular point is being conveyed. Other illustrations may have more than one point being made. Earlier I said that with parables in particular that we needed to find the big idea and stick with that. No rabbit trials allowed. The reason is that in a parable Jesus had one main point to make. It was usually obvious. But we need to find it and stick to it.

It's so easy to try to get cute and find all these other ideas not intended by Jesus in His parable. It happens more easily with parables than with any other sort of NT teaching.

But in general hermaneutics teaches that doctrines are to be founded on didactic literature, and supported by narrative literature... not the other way around.

Now, take care. I'm done here. Incidentally, the book I suggested by Bruce is the definitive work on parables. Really quite good. I don't agree with everything he says, and I don't imagine you would either. But it's a good resource. You can probably get it thru Amazon online very reasonably.

Oh, as was pointed out above, often those parables spoke about the kingdom of God. How to gain entrance, etc.. The focus is on the Messiah - Jesus.

BD

Thanks BadDog,

Your imput is appreciated.

My aim was to show the importance of understanding the parable of the law according to Christs explanation;

This is what was said to the multitude; Mt 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mt 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This was Christs explanation of what he said to the multitude; Lk 24:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Lk 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Lk 24:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, Lk 24:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Lk 24:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Lk 24:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) And ye are witnesses of these things.

God bless!

Firstfruits

keck553
Jul 29th 2008, 09:47 PM
That's not a parable. That's a direct, true and irreversable statement. There is no illustration here. Heaven and earth have not passed away.

Joey Porter
Jul 29th 2008, 09:58 PM
Cool post! And yes, we are all hypocrites. So is the aim to catch the hypocrasy while it's being birthed in the heart, and to repent before it manifests through our actions??

I would definitely say so. And also to always remember that as long as we're in the flesh, we're going to have this conflict going on inside of us.

But, not only are the parable characters inside of us, but ALL the bible characters are within us, and make up a part of who we are or who we could become. So, we all have a Judas in us who may try to use the Lord for profit or personal gain, or a Peter who swear allegiance but could deny Him, an Ananias who doesn't want to fully commit to something we know we're supposed to obey, etc.

Firstfruits
Jul 30th 2008, 07:58 AM
The difference is that the leadership and most Jews DID understand the illustrations Jesus used, as they were a normal path to a teaching.

They simply disobeyed out of their own gluttony.

If they had truly understood, They would not have crucified Jesus, and this scripture would not have been fulfilled as Jesus expounded to the disciples.

Mt 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mt 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 30th 2008, 12:39 PM
They knew who He was.

Just as some of us today know and continue to trade His gift for our earthly rewards.

No difference.

Did they really know who he was?

1 Cor 2:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Cor 2:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Firstfruits

BadDog
Jul 30th 2008, 01:23 PM
Firstfruits,

Thx. Perhaps you should just say that you want to look at what Jesus said regarding the law, rather than go down the parables path. It seems that the real OP of this thread is not about parables (and what you quoted is not a parable, but a teaching), but about the Law. It would be best to title it such so that those interested in such discussions, and there are many who are here, can participate.

take care,

BD

Firstfruits
Jul 30th 2008, 01:30 PM
Firstfruits,

Thx. Perhaps you should just say that you want to look at what Jesus said regarding the law, rather than go down the parables path. It seems that the real OP of this thread is not about parables (and what you quoted is not a parable, but a teaching), but about the Law. It would be best to title it such so that those interested in such discussions, and there are many who are here, can participate.

take care,

BD

It was what was said to the multitude, and then after his resurrection explained to his Disciples.

Mk 4:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

What Jesus expounded to the disciples regarding the parable of the law had been fulfilled, namely that he had died, arose from the dead and that salvation should be preached in his name and lastly, that they were witnesses to it.

This was about Christ and what was written about him in the law, not about the "law".

Firstfruits

BadDog
Jul 30th 2008, 04:15 PM
Firstfruits,

Just FYI, much of what we read in the gospels took place between Jesus and His disciples, not in public. He taught His disciples in private without parables, but spoke very plainly. On one occasion, when the disciples asked Him about one of His parables, Jesus answered their questions and their response was that now he was speaking plainly.

Take care,

BD

Firstfruits
Jul 30th 2008, 04:48 PM
Firstfruits,

Just FYI, much of what we read in the gospels took place between Jesus and His disciples, not in public. He taught His disciples in private without parables, but spoke very plainly. On one occasion, when the disciples asked Him about one of His parables, Jesus answered their questions and their response was that now he was speaking plainly.

Take care,

BD

Jesus always spoke plainly to his disciples when they were in private but when they were in with the multitude they were told the parables, hence the reason for them asking Jesus to explain the parables to them.

Mk 4:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Mk 4:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
Mk 4:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Mt 13:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

Mt 13:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

God bless!

Firstfruits

Mograce2U
Jul 30th 2008, 05:37 PM
This is what was said to the multitude; Mt 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mt 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This was Christs explanation of what he said to the multitude; Lk 24:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Lk 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Lk 24:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, Lk 24:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Lk 24:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Lk 24:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) And ye are witnesses of these things.

We may not consider them to be parables, but Jesus only spoke to the multitudes in parables.

Mk 4:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

FirstfruitsOk I think I see the problem now in what you are trying to say. First off, Jesus was not speaking to the multitude in Mat 5, He was speaking to His disciples.

(Mat 5:1-2 KJV) And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: {2} And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Here is His explanation of what He said about the law in v17-18 which He has tied to what He just told them in the Beatitudes. Those are the commandments He is referring to - the ones He just gave them. This the "new" law that will allow their righteousness to be greater than that which the Pharisees had under Moses. That righteousness comes not from performing the dead works which were passing away, but in doing fruitful good works born of the life they had received.

(Mat 5:19-20 KJV) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. {20} For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Firstfruits
Jul 30th 2008, 07:14 PM
Ok I think I see the problem now in what you are trying to say. First off, Jesus was not speaking to the multitude in Mat 5, He was speaking to His disciples.

(Mat 5:1-2 KJV) And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: {2} And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Here is His explanation of what He said about the law in v17-18 which He has tied to what He just told them in the Beatitudes. Those are the commandments He is referring to - the ones He just gave them. This the "new" law that will allow their righteousness to be greater than that which the Pharisees had under Moses. That righteousness comes not from performing the dead works which were passing away, but in doing fruitful good works born of the life they had received.

(Mat 5:19-20 KJV) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. {20} For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Since Jesus was only speaking to the disciples then he would not have to expound what he meant concerning himself.

How does what Jesus say to the disciples concerning himself relate to the law?

Lk 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Lk 24:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, Lk 24:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Lk 24:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Lk 24:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) And ye are witnesses of these things.

Firstfruits

Mograce2U
Jul 30th 2008, 07:40 PM
Just once Firstfruits I wish you'd make your point clear :idea: Why are you putting these verses together?

Firstfruits
Jul 30th 2008, 08:01 PM
Just once Firstfruits I wish you make your point clear :idea: Why are you putting these verses together?

Jesus said that this is what he said while he was still alive and therefore you cannot have one without the other. Jesus was concerned with fulfilling what was written in the law about himself which as he said they were witnesses to.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 30th 2008, 08:21 PM
What is it that Jesus came to fulfil?

Mt 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mt 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

What is it that Jesus expounded to his disciples concerning himself?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 30th 2008, 09:15 PM
If Jesus had not been crucified and raised from the dead as it is written, the law would have been destroyed.

All had to be fulfilled.

Firstfruits

Mograce2U
Jul 30th 2008, 10:03 PM
If Jesus had not been crucified and raised from the dead as it is written, the law would have been destroyed.

All had to be fulfilled.

FirstfruitsNow I get your point. Have you considered this:

Isa 55:11 YLT So is My word that goeth out of My mouth, It turneth not back unto Me empty, But hath done that which I desired, And prosperously effected that for which I sent it

Jesus was the Bread of Life - the Word of God sent into the world. That Word has returned to heaven, thus fulfilling the purposes for which God sent Him.

BadDog
Jul 30th 2008, 10:58 PM
Since Jesus was only speaking to the disciples then he would not have to expound what he meant concerning himself.

How does what Jesus say to the disciples concerning himself relate to the law?

Lk 24:44 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Lk 24:45 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, Lk 24:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Lk 24:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Lk 24:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) And ye are witnesses of these things.

Firstfruitsff,

What Jesus said in Luke 24 was to His disciples, and specifically that everything prophesied about the Messiah would be fulfilled. He specifically mentions the 3 basic areas of the OT - history, poetry and prophecy...

Luke 24:44, 45 Then He told them, "These are My words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about Me in the Law of Moses [law of Moses-> Pentateuch, but often used to refer to 1st 17 books of Christian OT], the Prophets, and the Psalms [often used to refer to the 5 books of poetry] must be fulfilled." Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.

Vs. 27 is similar:

Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted for them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

What do you think about the following?

Galatians 3:1-5 You foolish Galatians! Who has hypnotized you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified? I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh? Did you suffer so much for nothing--if in fact it was for nothing? So then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written: Cursed is everyone who does not continue doing everything written in the book of the law.

Galatians 2:16 yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

Galatians 4:20 I'd like to be with you right now and change my tone of voice, because I don't know what to do about you.

21-26 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, don't you hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and the other by a free woman. But the one by the slave was born according to the flesh, while the one by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. These things are illustrations, for the women represent the two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery--this is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

Galatians 5:3, 4 Again I testify to every man who gets circumcised that he is obligated to keep the entire law. You who are trying to be justified by the law are alienated from Christ; you have fallen from grace!

Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Philippians 3:8, 9 More than that, I also consider everything to be a loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. Because of Him I have suffered the loss of all things and consider them filth, so that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own from the law, but one that is through faith in Christ--the righteousness from God based on faith.

Hebrews 7:11 If, then, perfection came through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there for another priest to arise in the order of Melchizedek, and not to be described as being in the order of Aaron?

Romans 8:1-4 Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus, because the Spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. What the law could not do since it was limited by the flesh, God did. He condemned sin in the flesh by sending His own Son in flesh like ours under sin's domain, and as a sin offering, in order that the law's requirement would be accomplished in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 3:20, 21 For no flesh will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin. But now, apart from the law, God's righteousness has been revealed--attested by the Law and the Prophets.

3:27, 28 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By one of works? No, on the contrary, by a law of faith. For we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

Romans 7:6 But now we have been released from the law, since we have died to what held us, so that we may serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old letter of the law.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

They're more, but this should be enough to make the point that we are simply not under the Law. The purpose of the Jerusalem council in AD49 (Acts 15) was to make that clear.

We're the children of promise (both Jews and Gentiles). We are not under the law.

take care,

BD

Firstfruits
Jul 31st 2008, 07:57 AM
It is all about Jesus, it is not about the "law".

Acts 3:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Acts 24:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Acts 26:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

Jn 5:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Jn 5:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 31st 2008, 08:02 AM
Now I get your point. Have you considered this:

Isa 55:11 YLT So is My word that goeth out of My mouth, It turneth not back unto Me empty, But hath done that which I desired, And prosperously effected that for which I sent it

Jesus was the Bread of Life - the Word of God sent into the world. That Word has returned to heaven, thus fulfilling the purposes for which God sent Him.

Yes I agree, and this is what he expounded to the disciples regarding fulfillment;

Mt 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mt 5:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Isa 55:11 YLT So is My word that goeth out of My mouth, It turneth not back unto Me empty, But hath done that which I desired, And prosperously effected that for which I sent it

Thanks for your patience,

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Jul 31st 2008, 07:26 PM
Jesus in the law.

Jn 5:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

Deut 18:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deut 18:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Deut 18:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=5&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

If Jesus had not died where would gentiles be with God?

1 Cor 2:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Firstfruits