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mikebr
Jul 26th 2008, 10:54 PM
1 You crazy Galatians! Did someone put a hex on you? Have you taken leave of your senses? Something crazy has happened, for it's obvious that you no longer have the crucified Jesus in clear focus in your lives. His sacrifice on the cross was certainly set before you clearly enough. 2-4Let me put this question to you: How did your new life begin? Was it by working your heads off to please God? Or was it by responding to God's Message to you? Are you going to continue this craziness? For only crazy people would think they could complete by their own efforts what was begun by God. If you weren't smart enough or strong enough to begin it, how do you suppose you could perfect it? Did you go through this whole painful learning process for nothing? It is not yet a total loss, but it certainly will be if you keep this up!
5-6Answer this question: Does the God who lavishly provides you with his own presence, his Holy Spirit, working things in your lives you could never do for yourselves, does he do these things because of your strenuous moral striving or because you trust him to do them in you? Don't these things happen among you just as they happened with Abraham? He believed God, and that act of belief was turned into a life that was right with God.
7-8Is it not obvious to you that persons who put their trust in Christ (not persons who put their trust in the law!) are like Abraham: children of faith? It was all laid out beforehand in Scripture that God would set things right with non-Jews by faith. Scripture anticipated this in the promise to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed in you."
9-10So those now who live by faith are blessed along with Abraham, who lived by faith—this is no new doctrine! And that means that anyone who tries to live by his own effort, independent of God, is doomed to failure. Scripture backs this up: "Utterly cursed is every person who fails to carry out every detail written in the Book of the law."

tango
Jul 26th 2008, 10:58 PM
Not sure quite what you want here, if you read on a few extra verses you see (I've quoted the NKJV rather than the Message):

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT CONTINUE IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM."
Gal 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Gal 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "THE MAN WHO DOES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"),
Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

mikebr
Jul 26th 2008, 11:01 PM
Thanks. I'm thinking a law verses grace type discussion. I just think in light of this scripture it would be hard to have a "I have to earn it" understanding of scripture.

tango
Jul 26th 2008, 11:06 PM
vv23-24 says that before faith we were under guard by the law ... but after faith has come we are no longer under a tutor.

The ideas of earning salvation, or of salvation being linked to works, are explicitly denied by Paul elsewhere:

Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Col 2:20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—
Col 2:21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,"
Col 2:22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?

WELL
Jul 26th 2008, 11:07 PM
1 You crazy Galatians! Did someone put a hex on you? Have you taken leave of your senses? Something crazy has happened, for it's obvious that you no longer have the crucified Jesus in clear focus in your lives. His sacrifice on the cross was certainly set before you clearly enough. 2-4Let me put this question to you: How did your new life begin? Was it by working your heads off to please God? Or was it by responding to God's Message to you? Are you going to continue this craziness? For only crazy people would think they could complete by their own efforts what was begun by God. If you weren't smart enough or strong enough to begin it, how do you suppose you could perfect it? Did you go through this whole painful learning process for nothing? It is not yet a total loss, but it certainly will be if you keep this up!
5-6Answer this question: Does the God who lavishly provides you with his own presence, his Holy Spirit, working things in your lives you could never do for yourselves, does he do these things because of your strenuous moral striving or because you trust him to do them in you? Don't these things happen among you just as they happened with Abraham? He believed God, and that act of belief was turned into a life that was right with God.
7-8Is it not obvious to you that persons who put their trust in Christ (not persons who put their trust in the law!) are like Abraham: children of faith? It was all laid out beforehand in Scripture that God would set things right with non-Jews by faith. Scripture anticipated this in the promise to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed in you."
9-10So those now who live by faith are blessed along with Abraham, who lived by faith—this is no new doctrine! And that means that anyone who tries to live by his own effort, independent of God, is doomed to failure. Scripture backs this up: "Utterly cursed is every person who fails to carry out every detail written in the Book of the law."

Are you reaching out to unbelievers?
If not, then how can any reasonable believer find fault in this?
Great stuff, wow, but the KJV is better I think. Keep it up!!!

mikebr
Jul 26th 2008, 11:08 PM
vv23-24 says that before faith we were under guard by the law ... but after faith has come we are no longer under a tutor.

The ideas of earning salvation, or of salvation being linked to works, are explicitly denied by Paul elsewhere:

Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Col 2:20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—
Col 2:21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,"
Col 2:22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?

Good call. Thanks again.

cnw
Jul 27th 2008, 01:31 AM
do not forget that the mesage bible isn't actually a translation but a mans view of each verse.

mikebr
Jul 27th 2008, 01:37 AM
do not forget that the mesage bible isn't actually a translation but a mans view of each verse.
Yeah I know but I like the way it reads like a letter instead a bunch of individual verses. How bout getting your favorite version of that passage and let us know how the Message contradicts it, thus the title "Can anyone discredit this."

Thanks

awestruckchild
Jul 27th 2008, 01:53 AM
Sigh...
I have too many translations already and now I absolutely have to have that one. Never heard of it.........
Gee thanks Mike - I'll just get some money off that tree of mine and buy one!

P.S. - Bet I could find someone somewhere who could discredit it...;)

mikebr
Jul 27th 2008, 02:04 AM
Sigh...
I have too many translations already and now I absolutely have to have that one. Never heard of it.........
Gee thanks Mike - I'll just get some money off that tree of mine and buy one!

P.S. - Bet I could find someone somewhere who could discredit it...;)


No Need to pluck your crisp green backs. Its free online.
http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=65

mikebr
Jul 27th 2008, 02:06 AM
Are you reaching out to unbelievers?
If not, then how can any reasonable believer find fault in this?
Great stuff, wow, but the KJV is better I think. Keep it up!!!

Some folks really dislike the message of Galatians and some folks really dislike the Message.

awestruckchild
Jul 27th 2008, 02:10 AM
No Need to pluck your crisp green backs. Its free online.
http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=65

Oh!!!You are a peach!!!!

awestruckchild
Jul 27th 2008, 02:15 AM
I have to read Galatians very often.
It seems to me that there is something inside me that tries all of the time to discredit it!

I slowly start to fall under that "bewitching" he spoke of myself.
It disgusts me.

mikebr
Jul 27th 2008, 02:22 AM
I have to read Galatians very often.
It seems to me that there is something inside me that tries all of the time to discredit it!

I slowly start to fall under that "bewitching" he spoke of myself.
It disgusts me.

Its alot easier to live under the Law.

A New Law-Derek Webb

don’t teach me about politics and government
just tell me who to vote for
don’t teach me about truth and beauty
just label my music

don’t teach me how to live like a free man
just give me a new law

(pre-chorus)
i don’t wanna know if the answers aren’t easy
so just bring it down from the mountain to me

(chorus)
i want a new law
i want a new law
gimme that new law

(vs. 2)
don’t teach me about moderation and liberty
i prefer a shot of grape juice

don’t teach me about loving my enemies

don’t teach me how to listen to the Spirit
just give me a new law

(pre-chorus/chorus)

(bridge)
what’s the use in trading a law you can never keep
for one you can that cannot get you anything
do not be afraid
do not be afraid
do not be afraid

http://derekwebb.musiccitynetworks.com/

mikebr
Jul 27th 2008, 02:24 AM
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr4DBnB7aNQ

BroRog
Jul 27th 2008, 02:25 AM
do not forget that the mesage bible isn't actually a translation but a mans view of each verse.

Hate to break it to ya, but all translations are "man's view of each verse." :) Some men are better at conveying the intended meaning than others. But all are doing the same thing.

awestruckchild
Jul 27th 2008, 02:51 AM
Those lyrics are amazing!
I think that might be the same guy who wrote a song that really grabbed me and turned me into a blubbering fool a few weeks after I met God......I think it might have been called something like-They'll know us by the t-shirts that we wear.

mikebr
Jul 27th 2008, 02:54 AM
Those lyrics are amazing!
I think that might be the same guy who wrote a song that really grabbed me and turned me into a blubbering fool a few weeks after I met God......I think it might have been called something like-They'll know us by the t-shirts that we wear.

That would be Justin McRoberts. I think. Check our www.rabbitroom.com and you will get a song of the day. Great Artists. Andrew Peterson is the Main Guy.

I think we may be derailing this thread.:lol:

awestruckchild
Jul 27th 2008, 03:06 AM
That would be Justin McRoberts. I think. Check our www.rabbitroom.com (http://www.rabbitroom.com) and you will get a song of the day. Great Artists. Andrew Peterson is the Main Guy.

I think we may be derailing this thread.:lol:

But I don't want to discredit Galatians!!
But how about this:
3:28 says there is now no male and female.
But somewhere else Paul goes into some detail about how women may not speak in church.
But another vs. somewhere says in the last days your sons and daughters will prophesy.

mcgyver
Jul 27th 2008, 03:20 AM
I'll NEVER try to discredit Galatians!!!

I do however have a caution about "The Message":

John 1:1-2:

The Message:
The Word was first,
the Word present to God,
God present to the Word.
The Word was God,
in readiness for God from day one.

NKJV : In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

NIV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

John 10:30:
The Message: “I and the Father are one heart and mind."

NKJV: I and My Father are one.

NIV: I and the Father are one


Col 2:9
The Message: Everything of God gets expressed in him,

NKJV: For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

NIV: For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

Just a sampling...Remember that it was translated by one man and not a translation committee...take it for what it's worth :hmm:

mikebr
Jul 27th 2008, 03:22 AM
But I don't want to discredit Galatians!!
But how about this:
3:28 says there is now no male and female.
But somewhere else Paul goes into some detail about how women may not speak in church.
But another vs. somewhere says in the last days your sons and daughters will prophesy.

In Christ, there is neither Greek nor Jew, male nor female. God doesn't differentiate between the two. From what I understand in that particular church, Corinth, the women would sit on one side and the men on the other. The women in that particular church were causing a disruption. Paul in the whole of First Corinthians was talking about order when they met.

Athanasius
Jul 27th 2008, 03:23 AM
1 You crazy Galatians! Did someone put a hex on you? Have you taken leave of your senses? Something crazy has happened, for it's obvious that you no longer have the crucified Jesus in clear focus in your lives. His sacrifice on the cross was certainly set before you clearly enough. 2-4Let me put this question to you: How did your new life begin? Was it by working your heads off to please God? Or was it by responding to God's Message to you? Are you going to continue this craziness? For only crazy people would think they could complete by their own efforts what was begun by God. If you weren't smart enough or strong enough to begin it, how do you suppose you could perfect it? Did you go through this whole painful learning process for nothing? It is not yet a total loss, but it certainly will be if you keep this up!
5-6Answer this question: Does the God who lavishly provides you with his own presence, his Holy Spirit, working things in your lives you could never do for yourselves, does he do these things because of your strenuous moral striving or because you trust him to do them in you? Don't these things happen among you just as they happened with Abraham? He believed God, and that act of belief was turned into a life that was right with God.
7-8Is it not obvious to you that persons who put their trust in Christ (not persons who put their trust in the law!) are like Abraham: children of faith? It was all laid out beforehand in Scripture that God would set things right with non-Jews by faith. Scripture anticipated this in the promise to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed in you."
9-10So those now who live by faith are blessed along with Abraham, who lived by faith—this is no new doctrine! And that means that anyone who tries to live by his own effort, independent of God, is doomed to failure. Scripture backs this up: "Utterly cursed is every person who fails to carry out every detail written in the Book of the law."

Can I discredit this? Yeah, in two words: Message paraphrase.

mikebr
Jul 27th 2008, 03:25 AM
Can I discredit this? Yeah, in two words: Message paraphrase.Would you be willing to give us some side by side examples of how this particular passage is different from your favorite version................and can you discredit what Paul is saying here?

Athanasius
Jul 27th 2008, 03:36 AM
Would you be willing to give us some side by side examples of how this particular passage is different from your favorite version................and can you discredit what Paul is saying here?

Why would I want to discredit Paul, I agree with him. I just don't like 'The Message'.

mcgyver
Jul 27th 2008, 04:00 AM
Would you be willing to give us some side by side examples of how this particular passage is different from your favorite version................and can you discredit what Paul is saying here?

I don't want to be drawn into a "beat up the bible" discussion...won't do it!
Nor will I try to "discredit" the message of an Apostle. Shouldn't even be an issue!

Read these same passages in the NKJV or NIV and ask yourself:

Does the message indicate in any way shape or form that the recipients had received the Holy Spirit?

Does it indicate that the Spirit began or is completing the work?

Also look at the difference between "crazy" and "foolish". IMO the message is at best a commentary, and I would not recommend it for serious study.

awestruckchild
Jul 27th 2008, 01:23 PM
In Christ, there is neither Greek nor Jew, male nor female. God doesn't differentiate between the two. From what I understand in that particular church, Corinth, the women would sit on one side and the men on the other. The women in that particular church were causing a disruption. Paul in the whole of First Corinthians was talking about order when they met.

Thank you Mike, for giving me your understanding on how those tthree vss. tie together. This is how I had seen it also but truthfully, have never yet met anyone else who saw it the same.

I, by the way, got your point for beginning this thread - that you did not actually expect anyone to beat up on Paul and the bible but instead hoped someone would see that we do in fact, discredit Paul - sometimes daily- by our insistence on following rules rather than following the Holy Spirit. My guess though, is that there will be very few ppl who will see your intent and will, not knowing you even slightly, think you are calling for a bash the bible thread.

I have attempted to discredit his words in so many ways that I wouldn't even know where to begin. When I had just met God, I read a book that explained how the true Sabbath was on Saturday and then I went a little nutz insisting on Saturday not doing a single thing other than reading my bible. Keep in mind, this was before I had learned what His voice is and before He had shown me what true worship was in truth and in spirit. The real result of this tangent I flew off on was that I judged others who worshipped on Sunday. The real result of that knowledge (Sat. being Sabbath), only puffed me up and made me think I was better than others.

Another time, I refused to watch tv. Ever! I just was never going to watch tv again! Now though, I see Him literally everywhere. I even see Him in places where He is not welcome!!! Hollywood makes a movie and I sometimes see so clearly in it the insanity of their trying to come up with a plot He is not in when He invented plot! That one may only make sense to me but I am telling you, I see Him everywhere and if I refused to look everywhere because of some rule I heard someone say I should adhere to, I would miss Him a lot of the time!

ProjectPeter
Jul 27th 2008, 01:40 PM
I really hate to be the one that bust the proverbial bubble here but what was Paul speaking of here? What Law is he speaking of Mike?

Here is what you say. Sin is what he is speaking of. You count sin a work. Therefore it don't matter if you sin ultimately because it is a work.

You count good deeds (very much part of the fruit) a work. Therefore you really don't have to do good deeds because it is a work.

THAT IS NOT what Paul is speaking of in that letter. He is speaking of the works of the Law of Moses. Circumcission... etc.

awestruckchild
Jul 27th 2008, 02:01 PM
Mike-

I have been gloriously steeped in galatians since you began this thread last night and at my third or fourth reading of it a verse really hit me in chapter 4. It basically states that the children born by human effort will always persecute the children born by the power of the Spirit.

Wow! It just really hit me.
Sorry, guess I derailed the thread again.:blush:

ProjectPeter
Jul 27th 2008, 02:07 PM
Mike-

I have been gloriously steeped in galatians since you began this thread last night and at my third or fourth reading of it a verse really hit me in chapter 4. It basically states that the children born by human effort will always persecute the children born by the power of the Spirit.

Wow! It just really hit me.
Sorry, guess I derailed the thread again.:blush:
Hit you or not... it is still talking "human effort" about the works of the Law. It is not a greasy grace message as many would like. Paul addressed that in Corinthians and said "God forbid." He was accused of preaching that message and sadly... he still is. ;)

awestruckchild
Jul 27th 2008, 02:18 PM
I tell you Peter, as I said before, we are on two different paths.
I can hear you from the one I am is on but you cannot hear me from the one you are on.

I do not want you to think I am being rude so I will respond to you this once more. The path I am on can have nothing to do with the path you are on because one is in the world and one is in the Kingdom.

I wish only peace and light for you.

Diolectic
Jul 27th 2008, 02:21 PM
I'll NEVER try to discredit Galatians!!!

I do however have a caution about "The Message":I do however have a caution about the NIV, for is not suposed to be a paraphrase as "The Message"

The Message is not suposed to be so exact as the NIV.

What would you say for "The Living Bible"?

About "The Living Bible"
Taylor(the Author) never intended for his paraphrase to be used as the reader's sole source of Biblical knowledge, or as an aid to serious, scholarly study, but rather to put the basic truths of the Bible in language which could readily be understood by the typical reader without a theological or linguistic background...ect...(Wikipedia)

You should allow "The Message" to be as such as "The Living Bible".

Tell me, If one was straned on a desert island would you rather have nothing or "The Message"?

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 27th 2008, 02:59 PM
Tell me, If one was straned on a desert island would you rather have nothing or "The Message"?

I'd rather have nothing as i've got the Holy Spirit :lol:, However i'd pray for a ESV or a NRS to arrive or even a CJB, and God would do it.

Tanja

ProjectPeter
Jul 27th 2008, 03:03 PM
I tell you Peter, as I said before, we are on two different paths.
I can hear you from the one I am is on but you cannot hear me from the one you are on.

I do not want you to think I am being rude so I will respond to you this once more. The path I am on can have nothing to do with the path you are on because one is in the world and one is in the Kingdom.

I wish only peace and light for you.Does your path conform to godliness? Mine does NO DOUBT. If you are on a different path than that then you are on the wrong on.

mikebr
Jul 27th 2008, 03:23 PM
Does your path conform to godliness? Mine does NO DOUBT. If you are on a different path than that then you are on the wrong on.


He wrote His laws on my heart. I simply trust in the empowering work of the Holy Spirit to conform me into His image. I think you think that some of us sit around smoking drinking and having orgies. I have stopped trying to be better and started to simply trust in His ability to change me. Sins that I struggled with all my life have simply became a non issue for me. He just took them. I have labored to enter into His rest and stopped working to get His approval. Its been life changing and soooooo feeing. Whom Christ has set free is free indeed. I love my Savior and I believe that He loves me so much that........ well you know what He did. I am not perfect and have obviously not reached your level of righteousness. But He's working on me.
I believe that if we are in Christ we will do every deed that you say we have to do. But it will be Him working in us and not self effort.


What actually took place is this: I tried keeping rules and working my head off to please God, and it didn't work. So I quit being a "law man" so that I could be God's man. Christ's life showed me how, and enabled me to do it. I identified myself completely with him. Indeed, I have been crucified with Christ. My ego is no longer central. It is no longer important that I appear righteous before you or have your good opinion, and I am no longer driven to impress God. Christ lives in me. The life you see me living is not "mine," but it is lived by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I am not going to go back on that.

That's Galatians 2:19-21 in case you didn't recognize it.

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 27th 2008, 03:24 PM
Does your path conform to godliness? Mine does NO DOUBT. If you are on a different path than that then you are on the wrong on.

:eek: ............................................

ProjectPeter
Jul 27th 2008, 03:33 PM
What shocks you Tanja?

Jesusinmyheart
Jul 27th 2008, 03:35 PM
Ken, you know... no need to explain.

ravi4u2
Jul 27th 2008, 03:51 PM
I have stopped trying to be better and started to simply trust in His ability to change me. Sins that I struggled with all my life have simply became a non issue for me.But Paul says, "But [like a boxer] I buffet my body [handle it roughly, discipline it by hardships] and subdue it, for fear that after proclaiming to others the Gospel and things pertaining to it, I myself should become unfit [not stand the test, be unapproved and rejected as a counterfeit]."

awestruckchild
Jul 27th 2008, 04:07 PM
But Paul says, "But [like a boxer] I buffet my body [handle it roughly, discipline it by hardships] and subdue it, for fear that after proclaiming to others the Gospel and things pertaining to it, I myself should become unfit [not stand the test, be unapproved and rejected as a counterfeit]."

Hi Ravi-

I always thought Paul was saying that he gladly abuses his "flesh"/self/humaness - that he does not let it rise back up to hinder his race-that he keeps it under subjection and does not allow ego to spring back up or pride, etc.

Like what God told Cain to do- gain the upper hand over the hurt feelings and pride that rose up in him that caused him to murder. I can only do this if I gladly let those parts of me be abused and do not nurse them back when the Holy Spirit wants to kill them.

Friend of I AM
Jul 27th 2008, 04:23 PM
1 You crazy Galatians! Did someone put a hex on you? Have you taken leave of your senses? Something crazy has happened, for it's obvious that you no longer have the crucified Jesus in clear focus in your lives. His sacrifice on the cross was certainly set before you clearly enough. 2-4Let me put this question to you: How did your new life begin? Was it by working your heads off to please God? Or was it by responding to God's Message to you? Are you going to continue this craziness? For only crazy people would think they could complete by their own efforts what was begun by God. If you weren't smart enough or strong enough to begin it, how do you suppose you could perfect it? Did you go through this whole painful learning process for nothing? It is not yet a total loss, but it certainly will be if you keep this up!
5-6Answer this question: Does the God who lavishly provides you with his own presence, his Holy Spirit, working things in your lives you could never do for yourselves, does he do these things because of your strenuous moral striving or because you trust him to do them in you? Don't these things happen among you just as they happened with Abraham? He believed God, and that act of belief was turned into a life that was right with God.
7-8Is it not obvious to you that persons who put their trust in Christ (not persons who put their trust in the law!) are like Abraham: children of faith? It was all laid out beforehand in Scripture that God would set things right with non-Jews by faith. Scripture anticipated this in the promise to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed in you."
9-10So those now who live by faith are blessed along with Abraham, who lived by faith—this is no new doctrine! And that means that anyone who tries to live by his own effort, independent of God, is doomed to failure. Scripture backs this up: "Utterly cursed is every person who fails to carry out every detail written in the Book of the law."


Mike why must you always start trouble with these questions?(sic) Come on now man. How many threads do we have open about this already..lol...

cnw
Jul 27th 2008, 09:15 PM
Hate to break it to ya, but all translations are "man's view of each verse." :) Some men are better at conveying the intended meaning than others. But all are doing the same thing.


It isn't a translation, but a paraphrase. That is the word I was looking for. A translation isn't just mans words, but a letter by letter transition of the Bible as close to the meaning as possible with many people involved. A paraphrase is not a translation therefore not to be taken as total truth because it isn't.

mikebr
Jul 27th 2008, 09:39 PM
Mike why must you always start trouble with these questions?(sic) Come on now man. How many threads do we have open about this already..lol...


Because I have been called to shout Grace from the housetops. :monkeyd:

mikebr
Jul 27th 2008, 09:40 PM
It isn't a translation, but a paraphrase. That is the word I was looking for. A translation isn't just mans words, but a letter by letter transition of the Bible as close to the meaning as possible with many people involved. A paraphrase is not a translation therefore not to be taken as total truth because it isn't.


It makes for a dang good commentary on this particular passage. Wouldn't you agree?

ProjectPeter
Jul 28th 2008, 12:20 AM
He wrote His laws on my heart. I simply trust in the empowering work of the Holy Spirit to conform me into His image. I think you think that some of us sit around smoking drinking and having orgies. I have stopped trying to be better and started to simply trust in His ability to change me. Sins that I struggled with all my life have simply became a non issue for me. He just took them. I have labored to enter into His rest and stopped working to get His approval. Its been life changing and soooooo feeing. Whom Christ has set free is free indeed. I love my Savior and I believe that He loves me so much that........ well you know what He did. I am not perfect and have obviously not reached your level of righteousness. But He's working on me.
I believe that if we are in Christ we will do every deed that you say we have to do. But it will be Him working in us and not self effort.



That's Galatians 2:19-21 in case you didn't recognize it.Well... it's a mans understanding of Galatians 2: 19-21 anyway. ;)

ravi4u2
Jul 28th 2008, 01:41 PM
Hi Ravi-

I always thought Paul was saying that he gladly abuses his "flesh"/self/humaness - that he does not let it rise back up to hinder his race-that he keeps it under subjection and does not allow ego to spring back up or pride, etc.

Like what God told Cain to do- gain the upper hand over the hurt feelings and pride that rose up in him that caused him to murder. I can only do this if I gladly let those parts of me be abused and do not nurse them back when the Holy Spirit wants to kill them.Paul continues to say, "Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it."

I am sure Paul never abuses his body, because he also says elsewhere that he is the temple of God. And is not pride the root of sin?

mikebr
Jul 28th 2008, 01:41 PM
Well... it's a mans understanding of Galatians 2: 19-21 anyway. ;)


Is that different from the way you understand it? Can you discredit what he's saying? What's wrong with what or the way he's saying it?

awestruckchild
Jul 28th 2008, 02:29 PM
Paul continues to say, "Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it."

I am sure Paul never abuses his body, because he also says elsewhere that he is the temple of God. And is not pride the root of sin?

Hi Ravi-
What ever you were saying flew over my head.
I think the confusion was my fault because I stepped in with something that in my mind applied to the conv., which was the end of 1 Cor 9.

I think what you are saying is that vs. can in no way tie in with what God told Cain - as I see the connection. And that is fine. We don't all see the connections others do I guess....

As to your last paragraph, I wasn't at all saying I saw it as doing some kind of harsh things to our physical bodies but was rather speaking of doing harsh things to the parts of us like pride and ego. Was talking more about a spiritual thing than a human thing.

But the reason I was saying it was not because it would be a sin to harm our bodies because they are His temple - it isn't the "temple of our body" that is so important to me. It is Who is in the temple that makes it holy to me.

I just think I wasn't clear enough on what was in my mind, which is that the way in which I help or work with the good work He is completing in me is to agree with Him and keep under subjection my ugly flesh (ego, pride, etc)

ravi4u2
Jul 28th 2008, 02:38 PM
I just think I wasn't clear enough on what was in my mind, which is that the way in which I help or work with the good work He is completing in me is to agree with Him and keep under subjection my ugly flesh (ego, pride, etc)And I think that is the challenge for every follower of Christ! To carry the cross and follow Him. To crucify that which comes naturally so that you can put on the that which is of the Spirit. The Spirit calls everyone who walks after Jesus to walk supernaturally!

awestruckchild
Jul 28th 2008, 03:16 PM
Well then, we are in total agreement!

mcgyver
Jul 28th 2008, 03:32 PM
Tell me, If one was straned on a desert island would you rather have nothing or "The Message"?

:lol::lol::lol: If I was on a desert island with only the Reader's Digest version of "War and Peace", I'd read it...Doesn't mean it would be the best version...might have to go to the unabridged edition to see what I missed ;)

When Dr. Peterson penned his translation, he used so much slang, so many cliche's (Sp?) in his attempt to reach a certain readership, that many times the message has become obscured.

Compare the following passages with "The Message" and another version:

John 1:1-2, John 10:30, and Col. 2:9

Ask yourself this: "If I had had no theological background, if I had never read anything in the Bible before: Do these passages clearly reveal the Deity of Christ or do they obscure it as rendered in 'The Message'?" :hmm:

mikebr
Jul 28th 2008, 07:31 PM
:lol::lol::lol: If I was on a desert island with only the Reader's Digest version of "War and Peace", I'd read it...Doesn't mean it would be the best version...might have to go to the unabridged edition to see what I missed ;)

When Dr. Peterson penned his translation, he used so much slang, so many cliche's (Sp?) in his attempt to reach a certain readership, that many times the message has become obscured.

Compare the following passages with "The Message" and another version:

John 1:1-2, John 10:30, and Col. 2:9

Ask yourself this: "If I had had no theological background, if I had never read anything in the Bible before: Do these passages clearly reveal the Deity of Christ or do they obscure it as rendered in 'The Message'?" :hmm:






I don't think that anyone, I'm certainly not, is trying to say that the Message is the best version out there or that its anything but a paraphrase. My question was and remains can you take dispute the Message's version of what Paul said in Galatians. Is what Peterson said Paul is saying Biblical. Can you discredit what Peterson said Paul is saying? or if you'd like can you discredit what Paul is saying?