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A820djd
Jul 27th 2008, 01:47 AM
...simple question... Isn't King David the king that chased after women?

Joe King
Jul 27th 2008, 01:52 AM
...simple question... Isn't King David the king that chased after women?


David did commit adultery but I believe it was Solomon who had hundreds of women.

mikebr
Jul 27th 2008, 02:10 AM
I believe that David did and I know that Moses did. Check out the mount of Transfiguration. Surely Moses didn't come out of hell to chat with Jesus. The weird thing is that we think Moses got punished and not allowed to go into the Promised Land. So God Himself buried Him and He woke up in Glory. I'm pretty sure some of the scholars around will dig up a New Testament David verse.

Bethany67
Jul 27th 2008, 02:30 AM
David is listed in Heb 11 as one of the Old Testament 'saints' to be made perfect in the future with Christians.

And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

In Heb 12 the OT people above are referred to as the cloud of witnesses, as an encouragement to us to persevere.

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

jayne
Jul 27th 2008, 02:39 AM
...simple question... Isn't King David the king that chased after women?

I believe that David is in heaven.

Yes, he had multiple wives. Although not as many as his son, Solomon. Both David and Solomon disobeyed God direct orders for kings not to multiple their wives.

David was a terrible husband and father.

He was a murderer.

He was an adulterer.

He was governed by his passions.....all of them.

When his own daughter was raped by her half-brother, he did nothing. His sons were unruly and rebellious.

However, none of those things send you to hell. What sends you to hell is refusing to repent of your sins and rejecting God's gift of grace.

King David was also a man after God's own heart. What that means is that when David was shown his sins, he immediately fell into a spirit of repentance and cried out to God for forgiveness and for spiritual healing/cleansing.

It doesn't mean he was a goody-two-shoes. Just read the bible and see how controlled by the flesh he was. But he was a repentant man. And he never blamed his sinful ways on anyone but himself.

He knew what salvation was. In fact, he cried out to God to restore the joy of His salvation unto him.

nzyr
Jul 27th 2008, 02:47 AM
...simple question... Isn't King David the king that chased after women?
He chased after one woman, Bathsheba. He even had her husband killed. But David repented. And I believe God forgave him. The prophets always look back at the David years as the best years for Israel.


...his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father.

Nevertheless for David's sake did the LORD his God give him a lamp in Jerusalem, to set up his son after him, and to establish Jerusalem:

Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. -1 Kings 15:3-5

And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. -Ezekiel 34:23

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. -Ezekiel 37:24

And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. -Ezekiel 37:25

And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it. -Ezekiel 34:24

Ron Brown
Jul 27th 2008, 03:36 AM
If David is not in Paradise(Abraham's bosom), then Christ is not the messiah, and he was a liar. Christ is the son of David(Matt chapter 1), and Christ is going to sit on the throne of David for all of eternity( Jeremiah 23:5-6).

Christ can't sit on the throne of Hell where David is, can he? I think not. David has to be in Paradise in order for Christ to take David's throne.

Moses was with Christ and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration in Matthew chapter 17. Did Moses come from Hell to appear with Elijah? I think not.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 27th 2008, 07:26 AM
...simple question... Isn't King David the king that chased after women?


David did commit adultery but I believe it was Solomon who had hundreds of women.David had a very impressive array of women as well. And he, "the man after God's own heart", is waiting for us in heaven.

valleybldr
Jul 27th 2008, 12:24 PM
John 3:13 says No.

“No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man”

todd

Bethany67
Jul 27th 2008, 12:46 PM
John 3:13 says No.

“No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man”

todd

But what about after Jesus's resurrection? Obviously John3:13 is talking about His earthly ministry, but the question is where are dead believers now at this point of time.

valleybldr
Jul 27th 2008, 01:15 PM
But what about after Jesus's resurrection? Obviously John3:13 is talking about His earthly ministry, but the question is where are dead believers now at this point of time.
My best guess is that they are awaiting their judgment and resurrection like everyone else. todd

Bethany67
Jul 27th 2008, 01:23 PM
My best guess is that they are awaiting their judgment and resurrection like everyone else. todd


Curious as to how you accommodate 2.Cor 5:6-8 and being absent from the body/being with the Lord? There's no mention there of an intermediate state. Again in Phil 1, Paul contrasts being in the body with being with the Lord. Specifically in v.23 he talks of departing and being with Christ.

Servant89
Jul 27th 2008, 01:29 PM
When are we going to stop questioning whether people made it to heaven or not based on their resumé in the law?

When are we going to stop measuring our victory in Christ with the measuring stick of the law? It is written:

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God for if righteouness comes by the law, then Christ died in vain.

Gal 5:4 Those that try to make it to heaven by keeping the law, are fallen from grace. (paraphrased)

Shalom

valleybldr
Jul 27th 2008, 01:34 PM
When are we going to stop questioning whether people made it to heaven or not based on their resumé in the law?


When are we going to stop measuring our victory in Christ with the measuring stick of the law? It is written:

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God for if righteouness comes by the law, then Christ died in vain.

Gal 5:4 Those that try to make it to heaven by keeping the law, are fallen from grace. (paraphrased)

Shalom It's not our call anyway. It's a waste of time to speculate though, obviously, they both are going to be key figures in the future Messianic Kingdom. todd

valleybldr
Jul 27th 2008, 01:37 PM
Curious as to how you accommodate 2.Cor 5:6-8 and being absent from the body/being with the Lord? There's no mention there of an intermediate state. Again in Phil 1, Paul contrasts being in the body with being with the Lord. Specifically in v.23 he talks of departing and being with Christ. These passages are is written from the perspective of the writer. Once I die, the next moment I know will be "with the Lord." todd

Bethany67
Jul 27th 2008, 01:41 PM
Are you talking about some form of 'soul sleep'?

valleybldr
Jul 27th 2008, 02:34 PM
Are you talking about some form of 'soul sleep'? I don't know what to call it...does it need a name? Our spirit goes back to the Eternal and that's a realm far beyond me. todd

moonglow
Jul 27th 2008, 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by Bethany67
Curious as to how you accommodate 2.Cor 5:6-8 and being absent from the body/being with the Lord? There's no mention there of an intermediate state. Again in Phil 1, Paul contrasts being in the body with being with the Lord. Specifically in v.23 he talks of departing and being with Christ.


These passages are is written from the perspective of the writer. Once I die, the next moment I know will be "with the Lord." todd


valleybldr
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bethany67
Are you talking about some form of 'soul sleep'?
I don't know what to call it...does it need a name? Our spirit goes back to the Eternal and that's a realm far beyond me. todd

valley...this makes no sense to say yes Paul went to be with the Lord when he died but not the rest of us?? :confused If that is what you are saying...not really sure. Paul was telling US...everyone..once we die we will be with the Lord.

Not sure what you mean by this either:
I don't know what to call it...does it need a name? Our spirit goes back to the Eternal and that's a realm far beyond me.

The bible tells us exactly where we go when we die...so there is no guessing.

In general on the question of the OP...I don't think its wrong to ask if certain people are with God or not..in Heaven..the bible answers it as we see with the many passages posted. No one has to guess if they are or not..its in scriptures.

God bless

valleybldr
Jul 27th 2008, 03:27 PM
valley...this makes no sense to say yes Paul went to be with the Lord when he died but not the rest of us?? :confused If that is what you are saying...not really sure. Paul was telling US...everyone..once we die we will be with the Lord.

Not sure what you mean by this either:

The bible tells us exactly where we go when we die...so there is no guessing.

Yes, we go to the same place Paul went (asssuming we are not alive at his coming)....the ground. Our spirit, however, is with the Father. todd

moonglow
Jul 27th 2008, 04:04 PM
Yes, we go to the same place Paul went (asssuming we are not alive at his coming)....the ground. Our spirit, however, is with the Father. todd


Ok then! It seemed you were disagreeing with Bethany67 and the scriptures she gave so I am glad you cleared that up. Some people think our soul's sleep until the resurrection..that is what is called 'soul sleep' as she was referring too. So David and Moses and many of the OT prophets are with God...in which many scriptures were given on that.

God bless

valleybldr
Jul 27th 2008, 04:57 PM
Ok then! It seemed you were disagreeing with Bethany67 and the scriptures she gave so I am glad you cleared that up. Some people think our soul's sleep until the resurrection..that is what is called 'soul sleep' as she was referring too. So David and Moses and many of the OT prophets are with God...in which many scriptures were given on that.

God bless I'm not keeping track of who I agree with or disagree with. The Word says what it says. I highly doubt that there are disembodied spirits currently dwelling in heaven prior to their judgement but it's fine with me if there are. It's really not my call. todd

Mograce2U
Jul 27th 2008, 06:01 PM
Not only did Paul state that his hope was to be present immediately with the Lord when his earthly body died, but that he did not expect to be found naked at that time. IOW Paul's hope was not to be a disembodied spirit in heaven but a resurrected spirit clothed with a spiritual body.

Our Heavenly Dwelling
(2 Cor 5:1-10 KJV) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. {2} For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: {3} If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. {4} For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. {5} Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. {6} Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: {7} (For we walk by faith, not by sight {8} We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. {9} Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. {10} For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

moonglow
Jul 27th 2008, 06:20 PM
I'm not keeping track of who I agree with or disagree with. The Word says what it says. I highly doubt that there are disembodied spirits currently dwelling in heaven prior to their judgement but it's fine with me if there are. It's really not my call. todd


I think you are misunderstanding what I was saying...several of us were not understanding what you were saying so we were simply asking questions so we could understand what you were saying. When I said you disagreed with someone's posts...I didn't mean it as in keeping track of such things or meant it as a negative thing. I disagree with people all the time on here! :lol: And they disagree with me and that' fine!

I meant we were confused as to whether you were disagreeing with a verse in the bible and if so we just wanted to know why...that's all. No ill intent meant. This is a discussion board...we discuss things on here...usually we discuss bible verses...and that was all we were trying to do with you. Nothing more.

Mograce2U did a great post to address what you said...we won't have disembodied spirits floating around...

God bless

valleybldr
Jul 27th 2008, 06:28 PM
Not only did Paul state that his hope was to be present immediately with the Lord when his earthly body died, but that he did not expect to be found naked at that time. IOW Paul's hope was not to be a disembodied spirit in heaven but a resurrected spirit clothed with a spiritual body.

Our Heavenly Dwelling
(2 Cor 5:1-10 KJV) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. {2} For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: {3} If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. {4} For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. {5} Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. {6} Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: {7} (For we walk by faith, not by sight {8} We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. {9} Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. {10} For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Our (ultimate) home is (currently) in heaven and heaven is coming to earth in the form of the Messianic Kingdom and consequentional New Heavens and New Earth. I don't see anything Paul wrote that had him thinking he was going to dwell with God prior to the appointed time. todd

Mograce2U
Jul 27th 2008, 09:22 PM
Our (ultimate) home is (currently) in heaven and heaven is coming to earth in the form of the Messianic Kingdom and consequentional New Heavens and New Earth. I don't see anything Paul wrote that had him thinking he was going to dwell with God prior to the appointed time. todd Well if he did think he had to wait for anything, it is probably what Hebrews mentions:

(Heb 9:8 KJV) The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Which as I recall, the 2nd one was no longer left standing a short time after Paul's death. And since it is still gone, then I would say the way to heaven is now open ever since. A spiritual body is given to us so we can dwell in the spiritual realm.

Ron Brown
Jul 27th 2008, 09:45 PM
but the question is where are dead believers now at this point of time.

Paradise(Abraham's Bosom). Some people call it Heaven, but the Bible calls it Paradise. Christ told the thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in Paradise."

Bethany67
Jul 27th 2008, 09:49 PM
So Jesus is still in Paradise now, instead of having gone through the heavens to sit at the right hand of the Father? I've always thought Paradise (Abraham's Bosom) was a holding place that was emptied of all the righteous dead by Jesus through His death and resurrection.

Mograce2U
Jul 27th 2008, 09:50 PM
But what about after Jesus's resurrection? Obviously John3:13 is talking about His earthly ministry, but the question is where are dead believers now at this point of time.There are no dead believers, God is the God of the living (Mark 12:27).

And this has definitely become my most favorite verse:

(John 11:25-26 KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: {26} And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Ron Brown
Jul 27th 2008, 09:52 PM
So Jesus is still in Paradise now, instead of having gone through the heavens to sit at the right hand of the Father? I've always thought Paradise (Abraham's Bosom) was a holding place that was emptied of all the righteous dead by Jesus through His death and resurrection.

Jesus is at the right hand of the father, but nobody else is. The saints are in Paradise awaiting the transfiguration.

Bethany67
Jul 27th 2008, 09:56 PM
So Paul got it wrong then in 2 Cor 5?

Mograce, yes I get your point. I of course meant those believers who have physically died and are now alive with the Lord.

Mograce2U
Jul 27th 2008, 10:00 PM
Jesus is at the right hand of the father, but nobody else is. The saints are in Paradise awaiting the transfiguration.Just because the thief on the cross went to Paradise with Jesus does not mean he stayed there - Jesus didn't.

(John 14:3 KJV) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

(John 14:19 KJV) Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

(John 14:22-23 KJV) Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? {23} Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

(Heb 13:5 KJV) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

If He is with us even now and will never leave us but bring us to the place where He is, then I would say we will always be with Him whether in this life or the next.

Ron Brown
Jul 27th 2008, 10:02 PM
So Paul got it wrong then in 2 Cor 5?

Mograce, yes I get your point. I of course meant those believers who have physically died and are now alive with the Lord.

Jesus at the right hand of the father doesn't mean he is literally sitting right next to the father's right side constantly 24/7 making intercession for the saints. God is an omnipresent spirit, and he has no body or right hand or right side. The Bible is using descriptive language to describe the role Christ plays as our intercessor to God the Father. God is not an old man sitting on a throne looking down at us, he is an omnipresent spirit.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 28th 2008, 12:37 AM
If saints that die today don't go to heaven, then how do you explain the souls under the alter in heaven in association with the fifth seal in Revelation? Where did they come from?

Ron Brown
Jul 28th 2008, 12:47 AM
If saints that die today don't go to heaven, then how do you explain the souls under the alter in heaven in association with the fifth seal in Revelation? Where did they come from?

The rapture of the saints.

ProjectPeter
Jul 28th 2008, 12:50 AM
I believe that David did and I know that Moses did. Check out the mount of Transfiguration. Surely Moses didn't come out of hell to chat with Jesus. The weird thing is that we think Moses got punished and not allowed to go into the Promised Land. So God Himself buried Him and He woke up in Glory. I'm pretty sure some of the scholars around will dig up a New Testament David verse.

See now... found something we can agree on! ;)

Moses was different in this.

Jude 1:8 Yet in the same manner these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."

Not much written on it so I wouldn't teach it as TOTALLY holy writ simply because it is more of a puzzle piece with several others such as the Mount of Transfiguration. It seems to me (again my opinion based on this with the Mount) that Moses didn't go the way of most others (into paradise which was in the grave such as what Jesus spoke about with the rich man and Lazurus). He went on to wherever they went when God took them... same with Enoch and Elijah.

Again... wouldn't call it holy writ because it could be wrong. Just not enough written about it save these few things. Nevertheless it is a cool thought. :lol:

Mograce2U
Jul 28th 2008, 01:34 AM
Jesus at the right hand of the father doesn't mean he is literally sitting right next to the father's right side constantly 24/7 making intercession for the saints. God is an omnipresent spirit, and he has no body or right hand or right side. The Bible is using descriptive language to describe the role Christ plays as our intercessor to God the Father. God is not an old man sitting on a throne looking down at us, he is an omnipresent spirit.No but Jesus in bodily form sits on His throne as the arm of the Lord:

(Isa 53:1-2 KJV) Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? {2} For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him...

Literalist-Luke
Jul 28th 2008, 02:44 AM
The rapture of the saints.If they were Raptured, then why do they speak of being martyred?

Ron Brown
Jul 28th 2008, 03:19 AM
If they were Raptured, then why do they speak of being martyred?

Almost almost every 1st century Apostle was martyred, except for John the Revelator. There have ben tens of millions of Christians that have been martyred for Christ over the last 2000 years, and thousands in the 21st century all around the world are martyred every year for their faith.
There are plenty of dead in Christ martyrs in Paradise right now waiting to be raptured into their supernatural transfigured eternal body.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 28th 2008, 08:34 AM
Almost almost every 1st century Apostle was martyred, except for John the Revelator. There have ben tens of millions of Christians that have been martyred for Christ over the last 2000 years, and thousands in the 21st century all around the world are martyred every year for their faith.
There are plenty of dead in Christ martyrs in Paradise right now waiting to be raptured into their supernatural transfigured eternal body.But the majority did not die martyr's deaths. What about them?

BadDog
Jul 28th 2008, 02:30 PM
...simple question... Isn't King David the king that chased after women?Uh, you're probably thinking of King Solomon - 700 wives and 300 concubines. Ugh!

But David had 3 wives - perhaps more later in life.

But your question is whether or not David or Moses went to heaven?

Yes.

Salvation, OT and NT, was based on faith alone. Specifically Paul says regarding David that he was saved by faith. I suppose we wouldn't know for absolutely sure, without the following testimonies from the Bible:

Romans 4:4-7 Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed. But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares righteous the ungodly, his faith is credited for righteousness. Likewise, David also speaks of the blessing of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: How happy those whose lawless acts are forgiven and whose sins are covered!

David was saved not because he didn't sin too badly, but because "his faith was credited as righteousness [right living]."

2 Timothy 2:8 Keep in mind Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descended from David, according to my gospel.

Now Jesus sits on the throne of David and is off his ancestry - humanly speaking. Jesus is referred to as the Son of David numerous times in the gospels.

Hebrews 11:32-34 And what more can I say? Time is too short for me to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, who by faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, quenched the raging of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, gained strength after being weak, became mighty in battle, and put foreign armies to flight.

Acts 13:22 After removing him, He raised up David as their king, of whom He testified: ' I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My heart, who will do all My will.'

We are saved by faith alone. Works has nothing to do with our entrance into heaven. David was an adulterer and a murder. Works have much to say about our position in the kingdom, but not our entrance into it. David's sin did affect some of the glory he will receive, as our own does for ourselves. Fortunately, God is very merciful.

The Bible does day that except in the matter of Bathsheba and her husband Uriah that David was faithful. Hey, we all blow it. Would that we were all be as faithful as David and had such a positive testimony from God Himself, that except in this one area, we were faithful! I tell you one thing: I sure am glad that my entrance into heaven will not be decided by comparing my faithfulness and heart to that of David!

Regarding Moses, when Jesus was transfigured, He was seen by 3 of his disciples talking with Moses and Elijah about His coming death.

Romans 9:15 For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

God chose to be merciful to Moses. The Bible does say regarding Moses that he was the most meek man in all the earth... Again, quite a testimony. But salvation is by faith, not by works.

Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter

He chose to wander in the desert with God's people over being a prince of the mightiest nation in the world... How do your priorities match up? And when God became angry with the 2 million Israelites and told Moses that He was going to start all over with Moses, Moses refused the honor and argued the Israelites case. How do your motives stack up?

In Hebrews 3:2 and 5 we are told that Moses was faithful in all God's household. In 3:3 we are told that Moses was worthy of much honor. In Jude 9 we are told that Michael the archangel disputed with the devil over the body of Moses.

So as with David, in the case of David, the Bible clearly answers your question.

We are saved by faith... not by works. And our own works would not begin to match up with either Moses or David!

BD

Literalist-Luke
Jul 28th 2008, 04:46 PM
Just FYI:

II Samuel 5:13 - "After he left Hebron, David took more concubines and wives in Jerusalem, and more sons and daughters were born to him."

II Samuel 20:3 - "When David returned to his palace in Jerusalem, he took the ten concubines he had left to take care of the palace and put them in a house under guard. He provided for them but had no sexual relations with them. They were kept in confinement till the day of their death, living as widows."

So we don't know precisely how many wives/concubines David had, but it was obviously more than the two wives he had prior to living in Jerusalem, and he also had enough concubines to be able to spare ten of them without much regret.

Ron Brown
Jul 28th 2008, 05:32 PM
But the majority did not die martyr's deaths. What about them?

If you didn't die as a martyr for Christ, like tens of millions of other Christians have over the last 2000 years, you wont be crying out to God to avenge your martyrdom, now will you? Only the millions of martyrs in the bride of Christ will want justice for their martyrdom. It's simple.

Mograce2U
Jul 28th 2008, 05:43 PM
If you didn't die as a martyr for Christ, like tens of millions of other Christians have over the last 2000 years, you wont be crying out to God to avenge your martyrdom, now will you? Only the millions of martyrs in the bride of Christ will want justice for their martyrdom. It's a simple.
(Luke 18:6-8 KJV) And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith. {7} And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? {8} I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

It is not only the martyrs who pray to the Lord for justice that will be avenged. The Lord hears the cries of those who mourn over injustice. See Ezek 9 for the ones in Jerusalem who were marked by the angel to be spared the wrath of God coming upon that city. They were the ones who mourned over the wickedness they saw. And v6 is interesting in that it would be those who held the place of pre-eminence, the priesthood; that were to be the first to be slain. Sounds as though that may also be the reason John is told to measure the temple - the inner sanctuary - in Rev 11...

BadDog
Jul 28th 2008, 07:26 PM
Just FYI:

II Samuel 5:13 - "After he left Hebron, David took more concubines and wives in Jerusalem, and more sons and daughters were born to him."

II Samuel 20:3 - "When David returned to his palace in Jerusalem, he took the ten concubines he had left to take care of the palace and put them in a house under guard. He provided for them but had no sexual relations with them. They were kept in confinement till the day of their death, living as widows."

So we don't know precisely how many wives/concubines David had, but it was obviously more than the two wives he had prior to living in Jerusalem, and he also had enough concubines to be able to spare ten of them without much regret.
OK, but if God's Word makes it clear that (1) Moses and David are saved... are with God and (2) that we are saved not by works but by faith...

Can we not be confident that David, Moses and King Saul also are saved?

ProjectPeter
Jul 28th 2008, 07:32 PM
Why did you toss Saul in there? I think you'll have a tougher time proving that one Scripturally. ;)

Ron Brown
Jul 28th 2008, 07:45 PM
Why did you toss Saul in there? I think you'll have a tougher time proving that one Scripturally. ;)

True.

In 1 Samuel 28:15 Saul tells Samuel that God has departed from him. Does this mean he was not saved? I think it does.

In 1 Samuel 31:4 Saul was wounded in battle, so in order to ease the pain he killed himself with his own sword. Is this some form of suicide? Possibly?

RabbiKnife
Jul 28th 2008, 07:47 PM
The suicide issue is a red herring.

Suicide does not equal eternity in hell automatically.

Ron Brown
Jul 28th 2008, 08:07 PM
The suicide issue is a red herring.

Suicide does not equal eternity in hell automatically.

True. But 1 Samuel says that Saul told Samuel that God was no longer with him, and it never mentions Saul turning back to God before Saul ended his own life?

Not saying Saul went to Hell, just that it looks to me like he probably did.

RabbiKnife
Jul 28th 2008, 08:10 PM
True. But 1 Samuel says that Saul told Samuel that God was no longer with him, and it never mentions Saul turning back to God before Saul ended his own life?

Not saying Saul went to Hell, just that it looks to me like he probably did.

Oh, I don't disagree.

Just don't think that the issue of suicide had any impact on his eternal destination.


On the other hand, the annointing of the Holy Spirit in the OT was very different that the indwelling that we experience under the NT. Can't say that every righteous person in the OT could claim to have "God with him."

Scripture is silent as to Saul's final relationship with God, but the evidence on the surface does point toward a not so good relationship.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 28th 2008, 09:09 PM
Can we not be confident that David, Moses and King Saul also are saved?I think they probably are saved. :yes:

Mograce2U
Jul 28th 2008, 10:06 PM
True. But 1 Samuel says that Saul told Samuel that God was no longer with him, and it never mentions Saul turning back to God before Saul ended his own life?

Not saying Saul went to Hell, just that it looks to me like he probably did.Saul's end certainly was anything but honorable. What you don't see said is that "he slept with his fathers". Instead they burned his bones and buried him under a tree. (See 1 Sam 31:5 and 1 Chron 10:5)

1 Chron 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it; 14And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

BadDog
Jul 28th 2008, 10:23 PM
Why did you toss Saul in there? I think you'll have a tougher time proving that one Scripturally. ;):P

Yeah, could hardly "prove" it. :D But he did follow the Lord, somewhat, earlier. One summer when I was at a summer training program with the Navs at the New Tribes Bible Training headquarters I saw an older lady who was on furlow and reading the Bible, and I asked her what she was studying. She told me that she was reading through 1 Samuel looking at Saul's and David's life, and considering Saul to be a carnal Christian and David a Spirit-filled one, and searching for principles for following Christ. I have gone through that text a few times since - comparing how they lived. Very interesting study.

It is interesting how their views of God differed.
Now Saul kinda went off his rocker at the end... but you can be crazy and still saved, right? Right?! Whew! :spin: I was worried there for a moment.

BD

ProjectPeter
Jul 28th 2008, 10:34 PM
:P

Yeah, could hardly "prove" it. :D But he did follow the Lord, somewhat, earlier. One summer when I was at a summer training program with the Navs at the New Tribes Bible Training headquarters I saw an older lady who was on furlow and reading the Bible, and I asked her what she was studying. She told me that she was reading through 1 Samuel looking at Saul's and David's life, and considering Saul to be a carnal Christian and David a Spirit-filled one, and searching for principles for following Christ. I have gone through that text a few times since - comparing how they lived. Very interesting study.

It is interesting how their views of God differed.
Now Saul kinda went off his rocker at the end... but you can be crazy and still saved, right? Right?! Whew! :spin: I was worried there for a moment.

BD
Nope. He was lost as a canadian honker in the tropics man.

BadDog
Jul 29th 2008, 05:09 PM
PP,

Could be. I won't argue with you because the Bible doesn't specifically say one way or the other.

BD

BadDog
Jul 29th 2008, 05:12 PM
True.

In 1 Samuel 28:15 Saul tells Samuel that God has departed from him. Does this mean he was not saved? I think it does.

In 1 Samuel 31:4 Saul was wounded in battle, so in order to ease the pain he killed himself with his own sword. Is this some form of suicide? Possibly?
Just wanna be clear: suicide is NOT the unpardonable sin. (Of course, if you're not saved, and then you kill yourself... well, that's kinda "unpardonable.") :P

BD

ProjectPeter
Jul 29th 2008, 05:13 PM
Just wanna be clear: suicide is NOT the unpardonable sin. (Of course, if you're not saved, and then you kill yourself... well, that's kinda"unpardonable.") :P

BD
Hard to repent of though. ;)

BadDog
Jul 29th 2008, 05:13 PM
True. But 1 Samuel says that Saul told Samuel that God was no longer with him, and it never mentions Saul turning back to God before Saul ended his own life?

Not saying Saul went to Hell, just that it looks to me like he probably did.God removed His (S)spirit from him. Doesn't say that he was lost.

BD

BadDog
Jul 29th 2008, 05:18 PM
Hard to repent of though. ;)We don't stay saved by repenting from sin.

Otherwise, someone could live an absolutely incredibly committed service for God kinda life, then gets angry and in retaliation to someone it results in killing himself such that he never haves an opportunity to "repent"... so all those works and faith are just water under the bridge?

BD

ProjectPeter
Jul 29th 2008, 05:21 PM
We don't stay saved by repenting from sin.

Otherwise, someone could live an absolutely incredibly committed service for God kinda life, then gets angry and in retaliation to someone it results in killing himself such that he never haves an opportunity to "repent"... so all those works and faith are just water under the bridge?

BD
Tell me something BD. If murder is a "work" such as Paul was speaking of... and we don't murder... and we are rewarded for our good works... are we rewarded for not murdering someone?

tt1106
Jul 29th 2008, 05:52 PM
God's strength is made perfect in our weakness. David did sin, but he worshipped the Lord and repented.
I can't bring myself to believe that with Jesus coming, the law should not be kept.
After all Jesus came to fulfil as a sacrifice not a replacement.
-blessings

BadDog
Jul 29th 2008, 08:56 PM
Tell me something BD. If murder is a "work" such as Paul was speaking of... and we don't murder... and we are rewarded for our good works... are we rewarded for not murdering someone?:P Uh, well if someone was really irritating us, I mean really! Well then I say Yes. :rofl:

Why not? If He will reward even giving a cup of water.

BD

ProjectPeter
Jul 30th 2008, 01:08 AM
:P Uh, well if someone was really irritating us, I mean really! Well then I say Yes. :rofl:

Why not? If He will reward even giving a cup of water.

BD
Giving a cup of water is an act of kindness/love and thus a work biblically. Murder... we ain't supposed to murder right? Why do folks think we're going to be rewarded for doing what it is we ought (or ought not) do? That makes no biblical sense.

Luke 17:7 *"But which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, `Come immediately and sit down to eat´?
8 *"But will he not say to him, `Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me until I have eaten and drunk; and afterward you will eat and drink´?
9 *"He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?
10 *"So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, `We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.´"

BadDog
Jul 30th 2008, 01:13 PM
Giving a cup of water is an act of kindness/love and thus a work biblically. Murder... we ain't supposed to murder right? Why do folks think we're going to be rewarded for doing what it is we ought (or ought not) do? That makes no biblical sense.

Luke 17:7 *"But which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, `Come immediately and sit down to eat´?
8 *"But will he not say to him, `Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me until I have eaten and drunk; and afterward you will eat and drink´?
9 *"He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he?
10 *"So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, `We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.´"

This was said tongue-in-cheek, of course. But in a parable Jesus told those who had been faithful, "well done." Their response? "We have only done what was our duty."

That is essentially what you've said. But God will reward us for doing what is our duty. Now regarding your question, if someone is really being difficult, say we take an extreme - say they murder your wife. If you had the opportunity to kill them knowing that no one would ever find out or be able to pin it on you and yet you refused to do so, do you not think that this is rewardable?

Let me give a specific example. David was being chased by King Saul with his 5000 men up and down the hills, barely staying ahead of him. He and his men hid in a cave. It just so happened that Saul chose that cave to use as a bathroom! David's men urged him to kill Saul. David refused stating that Saul was the Lord's anointed. Now he could have justified it as self-defense. But he took the higher path, and it is rewardable.

What matters whether it is a "major" sin? Jesus specifically said that even the smallest good deed would have its reward. That certainly includes our attitudes. And any attitude not godly is a sin, right? Since we were created for good works (Eph. 2:10) it can easily be argued that not doing a good deed is sin.


Joke:

That reminds me of a joke:

Boy: "Mommy, would you punish me for something I didn't even do?"

Mommy: "Why of course not, Johnny."

Johnny: Johnny was elated. "Good, cause I didn't do my homework and I didn't make my bed."

BD

Mograce2U
Jul 30th 2008, 05:00 PM
Wasn't it Hillel who taught the golden rule was not to do unto others what you don't want them to do to you? Jesus' understanding of that rule was a bit more proactive, in that He says it is the good we know that we must do. Hillel was only concerned with avoiding sin and judgment, but Jesus' concern is that we learn to good and that because of our faith in His salvation.

BadDog
Jul 30th 2008, 10:25 PM
Thx grace guy,

You've had some very intriguing comments regarding Judaism and Christianity.

BD

ProjectPeter
Jul 31st 2008, 01:16 AM
This was said tongue-in-cheek, of course. But in a parable Jesus told those who had been faithful, "well done." Their response? "We have only done what was our duty."

That is essentially what you've said. But God will reward us for doing what is our duty. Now regarding your question, if someone is really being difficult, say we take an extreme - say they murder your wife. If you had the opportunity to kill them knowing that no one would ever find out or be able to pin it on you and yet you refused to do so, do you not think that this is rewardable?

Let me give a specific example. David was being chased by King Saul with his 5000 men up and down the hills, barely staying ahead of him. He and his men hid in a cave. It just so happened that Saul chose that cave to use as a bathroom! David's men urged him to kill Saul. David refused stating that Saul was the Lord's anointed. Now he could have justified it as self-defense. But he took the higher path, and it is rewardable.

What matters whether it is a "major" sin? Jesus specifically said that even the smallest good deed would have its reward. That certainly includes our attitudes. And any attitude not godly is a sin, right? Since we were created for good works (Eph. 2:10) it can easily be argued that not doing a good deed is sin.


Joke:

That reminds me of a joke:

Boy: "Mommy, would you punish me for something I didn't even do?"

Mommy: "Why of course not, Johnny."

Johnny: Johnny was elated. "Good, cause I didn't do my homework and I didn't make my bed."

BDWhat parable is that? If you are speaking of the talents in Matthew and Luke... not quite how it went. ;)

Twas a funny joke though! I don't think that was Johny... sounds like little Kenny! :saint:

Bick
Jul 31st 2008, 04:30 AM
MY COMMENTS: Of course they aren't in heaven...for...only Christ has ascended into heaven:

John 3:13, "No one has ascended into heaven except, the Son of Man [who is in heaven]." NRSV.

Acts 2:29, "Fellow Israelites, I may say to you confidently of our ancestor David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
Acts 2:34, "For David did not ascend into the heavens..." NRSV.

Death is the opposite of life....the cure being Resurrection!

In death, the grave, there is no knowledge, no remembrance, no praise:

Psa. 6:5, "For in death there is no remebrance of thee; in Sheol who can give you praise?

Psa. 30:9, "What profit will there be in my blood when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? Shall it declare thy truth?"

Psa. 115:17, "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."

See also Psa. 88:10-12; Ecc. 9:10; Isa. 38:18, etc.

Daniel, the prophet, was told he would rise for his reward at the end of those days (that is, the 1335 days after the middle of the 7 years tribulation), Dan. 12:13. This will be the first (former) resurrection which takes place after Christ returns to earth (Rev.20:5-6).

happygirl
Jul 31st 2008, 04:37 AM
i got save age of 9 1981 i ask god come to my life

BadDog
Jul 31st 2008, 03:14 PM
PP,

Do you not agree that God will reward all things done for the kingdom of God, whether or not commanded? According to 1 Corin. 3, some things will burn up while others will be rewarded.

1 Corinthians 3:14, 15 If anyone's work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, it will be lost, but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire.

BD

ProjectPeter
Aug 1st 2008, 12:26 PM
In that passage it is speaking of the builders/planters and not the buildings/fields. There will be reward sure... but not for things such as not murdering, stealing, being immoral... etc. You ain't supposed to do those things. ;)

BadDog
Aug 1st 2008, 02:32 PM
PP,

C'mon. The text says that every work will be rewarded. So you don't think that David will be rewarded for not killing Saul in that cave?

2 Corinthians 5:9, 10 Therefore, whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to be pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each may be repaid for what he has done in the body, whether good or bad.

The judgment seat is for believers only. Here it says that every deed - whether good or bad - will be repaid. We will be repaid for "what we've done in the body"... I suppose if someone had an out-of-body experience and restrained himself from murder, then yeah, no reward. :P

BD

ProjectPeter
Aug 1st 2008, 03:29 PM
Well now you are showing a totally different passage of Scripture. :D


The one in 1 Corinthians 3 is speaking as I said... those that build on the foundation... those that plant and water. It isn't speaking about the field nor the buildings themselves... it is speaking of the workers. As that example Paul spoke of Apollos and himself.

And no. Why would be given rewards for doing what we are simply supposed to do?

And by the way... even in that 2 Corithians passage. Paul is still speaking of him as well as other ministering the gospel with him. That really is much of what the first six chapters are but especially starting at the latter end of Chapter 2. ;)

2 Corinthians 5:12 *We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, that you may have an answer for those who take pride in appearance, and not in heart.
13 *For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you.
14 *For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
15 *and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
16 *Therefore from now on we recognize no man according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
17 *Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
18 *Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 *namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 *¶Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
21 *He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

BadDog
Aug 1st 2008, 04:26 PM
Well now you are showing a totally different passage of Scripture. :D
BD: Not totally different. Very relevant.

The one in 1 Corinthians 3 is speaking as I said... those that build on the foundation... those that plant and water. It isn't speaking about the field nor the buildings themselves... it is speaking of the workers. As that example Paul spoke of Apollos and himself.
Most, actually nearly all theologians, see 1 Corinthians 3, Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10 as all referring to the judgment seat (BHMA) of Christ.


And no. Why would be given rewards for doing what we are simply supposed to do?

Well, if Jesus said that even giving a glass of water would be rewarded... But everything can be broken down into good and bad deeds. That's according to 2 Corinthians 5. EVERY deed, no matter what kind, is rewardable.


And by the way... even in that 2 Corinthians passage. Paul is still speaking of him as well as other ministering the gospel with him. That really is much of what the first six chapters are but especially starting at the latter end of Chapter 2. ;)

BD: so? Every deed "done in the body" is rewardable. It will be tested by fire (not hell-fire). That is not speaking of only those related to the gospel. Sure, in 1 Corinthians 3 Paul is speaking about ministry actions he and Apollos had taken. 5:10 is talking about all of our actions.

2 Corinthians 5:12 *We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, that you may have an answer for those who take pride in appearance, and not in heart.
13 *For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you.
14 *For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
15 *and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
16 *Therefore from now on we recognize no man according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
17 *Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
18 *Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 *namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 *¶Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
21 *He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Not sure what your point was with the last few verses, and I don't think that changes the fact that at the BHMA seat we will be rewarded for everything "done in the body, whether good or bad."

I also think that I've said what I intended to say when I first came to this thread - just wanted to point out that salvation is based on what Christ did, not what people did. Some will not agree, such as yourself, and that's OK. I've said what I wanted to say. If you still do not agree that we will be rewarded for everything done in the body... well, then I'll guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. :P

BD

ProjectPeter
Aug 1st 2008, 05:00 PM
Most, actually nearly all theologians, see 1 Corinthians 3, Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10 as all referring to the judgment seat (BHMA) of Christ.Okay... cool. And most would have different ideas of how folks will be judged. Depends on their doctrines elsewhere. ;)



Well, if Jesus said that even giving a glass of water would be rewarded... But everything can be broken down into good and bad deeds. That's according to 2 Corinthians 5. EVERY deed, no matter what kind, is rewardable.What sort of reward do you think Jesus was speaking of there?


Not sure what your point was with the last few verses, and I don't think that changes the fact that at the BHMA seat we will be rewarded for everything "done in the body, whether good or bad."

I also think that I've said what I intended to say when I first came to this thread - just wanted to point out that salvation is based on what Christ did, not what people did. Some will not agree, such as yourself, and that's OK. I've said what I wanted to say. If you still do not agree that we will be rewarded for everything done in the body... well, then I'll guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. :P

BD
My point with the last verses as well as like I said, starting as far back as the latter part of Chapter 2... Paul was talking about himself as well as those in ministry with him. If the chapters before that are talking about himself and those in ministry before him and the chapter after that is talking about that and the chapter your text is in is talking about himself and those in ministry with him... why do we want to make it about everyone else? In other words... it was just more indepth of what he said in the first letter... 3rd chapter. ;)

BadDog
Aug 1st 2008, 05:54 PM
PP,

Sorry - don't really agree, but school is starting soon, so I just don't have time. Understand that your position on judgments is different than mine since you hold to a form of salvation which includes works. Doesn't affect the point I was making.

That said clearly in chapter 5 of 2 Corinthians (not 1 Corinthians, as in 1 Corinthians 3) Paul is clearly addressing and including his readers in "we..." He was not talking about himself and fellow laborers only. Not sure if you were talking about 1st or 2nd Corinthians.

Gotta go. If someone else wants to give-and-take with my friend PP, have at it. :D

BD