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BrokenOne
Jul 27th 2008, 03:14 PM
I have searched the Scripture and looked from both sides. My question is this: "Is eternal security biblical?" Like I said, I have searched Scripture. I have a some thoughts of my own. I just want so other oppinions on this matter. Thanks in advance for your responses.

mikebr
Jul 27th 2008, 03:25 PM
Get ready man............and welcome to the boards.

Yes its biblical. Let the games begin.:lol::pp:hug::kiss:

BrokenOne
Jul 27th 2008, 03:36 PM
I take it this is a hot topic.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 27th 2008, 03:42 PM
If you believe faith is something God instills in us or that we enter into a covenant when we accept Him as Lord, then you will believe we cannot lose our salvation. Instead, you would believe that the Scriptures tend to point to us being able to wander from God (because of our fallen nature), but Him lovingly, yet sternly, bringing us back into the fold. Likewise, you would believe sanctification is a huge aspect of Christianity - we have no license to sin and, in fact, because of sanctification will grow to detest sin in our lives.

If, however, you believe faith is something we enter into or that we act on, then you're more likely to believe that we can lose our salvation. This puts us in charge of our own salvation rather than having God in charge of it. It allows for more free will than the previous view.

I hold to the first view though - to me, Scripture makes it clear that we are chosen by God, covered by His grace, and sanctified by His Spirit.

Mograce2U
Jul 27th 2008, 04:18 PM
God knows who are His.

All things are sustained by Him

It is for Him all things were created

The Son is the Agent by which the Father created our world

Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith

Jesus has the power of eternal life which He gives to those who belong to Him. God proved this by raising Him from the dead.

Jesus is the One God has ordained to judge the world - which is also proved by the resurrection.

Our hope is that He will bring us through death to stand in His presence because we believe we have forgiveness in the atonement He has provided for us and that He has the power to raise the dead.

This promise which God has given to those who believe and put their faith in Him, is sustained by grace thru faith. Faith is thus the "conduit" by which grace and hope is given to us and which the Holy Spirit keeps alive in us.

Those who are IN Christ are thus eternally secure as God keeps them in faith thru His word concerning the record He has given us of His Son and will never leave or forsake those whom He has given to Christ.

If the Spirit of Christ abides in you then your hope is a genuine one that you have salvation according to His promise.

If however you grieve the Holy Spirit by turning back to unbelief and sin then you have not continued to abide in faith. Faith is what must live in us and endure to the end, if we are to have our hope fulfilled.

If we forsake the new covenant by denying the Lord who bought us then we shall die in our sins and face the coming judgment instead. Because there is only one sacrifice for sins, and if we deny the efficacy of that sacrifice, there is no other that will be given to us. This is why the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the only unforgiveable sin. If we abide in the truth we have received we are kept by the power of God, but if not we will be cut off.

So the answer is yes for the believing, and no for the unbelieving.

(John 20:27-29 KJV) Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. {28} And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. {29} Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Friend of I AM
Jul 27th 2008, 04:26 PM
I have searched the Scripture and looked from both sides. My question is this: "Is eternal security biblical?" Like I said, I have searched Scripture. I have a some thoughts of my own. I just want so other oppinions on this matter. Thanks in advance for your responses.

Umm..Eternal Security is OSAS(Once saved always saved) we essentially already have a thread like this that MikeBR opened...maybe the Op's can merge the two threads.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=133058&page=23

cwb
Jul 27th 2008, 04:42 PM
Umm..Eternal Security is OSAS(Once saved always saved)

Is eternal security really the same thing as OSAS. That guy in I Cor. whom Paul delievered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh because of fornication is going to be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Nevertheless, the enemy was able to cause quite a bit of destruction in the guys life before that. (I Cor. 5)

BrokenOne
Jul 27th 2008, 04:46 PM
Umm..Eternal Security is OSAS(Once saved always saved) we essentially already have a thread like this that MikeBR opened...maybe the Op's can merge the two threads.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=133058&page=23


I am sorry Friend of I AM if my posting of this thread bothers you since there seems to be another of its kind. I personally did not see the other at the time of posting this one. If repeating topics on this board is a bother to some and should not be allowed then this board would not be near as busy as it is. If they want to merge it then I have no control over that and that's fine. Once again I apologize for posting on the same topic since some apparently do not like this.

Friend of I AM
Jul 27th 2008, 04:48 PM
I am sorry Friend of I AM if my posting of this thread bothers you since there seems to be another of its kind. I personally did not see the other at the time of posting this one. If repeating topics on this board is a bother to some and should not be allowed them this board would not be near as busy as it is. If they want to merge it then I have no control over that and that's fine. Once again I apologize for posting on the same topic since some apparently do not like this.

No problem man. Didn't bother me any. Just wanted to let you know.

Friend of I AM
Jul 27th 2008, 04:52 PM
Is eternal security really the same thing as OSAS. That guy in I Cor. whom Paul delievered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh because of fornication is going to be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Nevertheless, the enemy was able to cause quite a bit of destruction in the guys life before that. (I Cor. 5)

I think Paul also mentioned something about all of the Apostles and prophets/disciples being made spectacles of before the universe in Corinthians and being thought of as fools by the entire universe(men as well as angels), who were essentially doomed to destruction. (1 Cor 4:9-10)

To answer the original question though, I think eternal security is essentially the same thing as OSAS to be honest.

threebigrocks
Jul 27th 2008, 05:04 PM
To answer the original question though, I think eternal security is essentially the same thing as OSAS to be honest.

Eternal security is the issue. Some believe that once we are born again we are OSAS - we are sealed and that is that and nothing can remove our hope of salvation. Some believe that once we are born again we are NOSAS - we are sealed but must produce fruit of the spirit in keeping in line with the faith walk. We have our part to do to remain close to Him.

Broken One, don't worry about there being another thread of this sort. :) This is occationally discussed here and for you to bring up to topic is fine. To keep 1 topic in 1 thread and that's that wouldn't make this place near as interesting as it can get to be! Welcome to the board!

Mograce2U
Jul 27th 2008, 05:10 PM
Is eternal security really the same thing as OSAS. That guy in I Cor. whom Paul delievered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh because of fornication is going to be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Nevertheless, the enemy was able to cause quite a bit of destruction in the guys life before that. (I Cor. 5)Well I guess an early death would be the ultimate chastisement to come upon a saint for his sin - if he remains stubbornly unrepentant. But elsewhere Paul does say to bring the erring brother back into the fellowship if he repents. Now you have me wondering if Ananias and Sapphira who lied to the Holy Spirit were saved in the day of their death when Peter brought that judgment upon them. I'll have to think about that some more...

Ok - is it possible that this precariousness concerning salvation was only in effect for a time? Heb 9:8 says the way into the holy of holies - which veil Jesus tore at the cross - was not yet made open while the earthly tabernacle remained standing. That would seem to imply that a benefit which was dependent upon remaining faithful and undefiled had not yet come when these words were penned. IOW continuing in sin at that time could cause one to lose their salvation - because wrath from God was coming.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 27th 2008, 05:24 PM
Is eternal security really the same thing as OSAS. That guy in I Cor. whom Paul delievered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh because of fornication is going to be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Nevertheless, the enemy was able to cause quite a bit of destruction in the guys life before that. (I Cor. 5)


No, they aren't the same. I tend to use the term perseverance of the saints or eternal security. Both give off the idea that there is still an act of sanctification that comes with being saved - it isn't a one time act or a pit stop (such as OSAS).

immortality
Jul 27th 2008, 07:14 PM
true, genuine believers will never be snatched out of jesus' or his father's hands. although they may fall or backslide along the way, god will come for them to discipline, chasten, and do whatever it takes so they remain on the narrow path.

however, most of the "christians", particularly in america today, who believe this doctrine, do so to make an excuse for their sin. people who use this as an excuse to indulge in carnality are not true believers and are not even saved at all. charles spurgeon says it best:

"“If I believed that doctrine, I would live as I pleased,” says one. Then you are not one of his sheep, for his sheep love holiness, and will not love iniquity. The change brought about by the new birth is such that a man will not return to his old ways of sin and folly. This is the doctrine; and how can you make it to be an indulgence to sin? True saints never turn the grace of God into an excuse to ignore the very commands of God, but the very mention of eternal love leads them to careful obedience."

here are some great articles i recommend reading regarding this doctrine:

Eternal Security, Charles Spurgeon (http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/2120.htm)

Never Perish, J.C. Ryle (http://www.biblebb.com/files/ryle/never_perish.htm)

BadDog
Jul 28th 2008, 02:37 PM
I have searched the Scripture and looked from both sides. My question is this: "Is eternal security biblical?" Like I said, I have searched Scripture. I have a some thoughts of my own. I just want some other opinions on this matter. Thanks in advance for your responses.Yes, it's biblical - IMO.

A good question to ask is, "Is eternal life eternal?" and, "When do we receive eternal life?"

As Charles Ryrie has said, "If eternal life can be lost, then it has the wrong name." Or something like that. :P

But I will not get involved in a debate on this topic.

BD

Friend of I AM
Jul 28th 2008, 03:01 PM
true, genuine believers will never be snatched out of jesus' or his father's hands. although they may fall or backslide along the way, god will come for them to discipline, chasten, and do whatever it takes so they remain on the narrow path.

however, most of the "christians", particularly in america today, who believe this doctrine, do so to make an excuse for their sin. people who use this as an excuse to indulge in carnality are not true believers and are not even saved at all. charles spurgeon says it best:

"“If I believed that doctrine, I would live as I pleased,” says one. Then you are not one of his sheep, for his sheep love holiness, and will not love iniquity. The change brought about by the new birth is such that a man will not return to his old ways of sin and folly. This is the doctrine; and how can you make it to be an indulgence to sin? True saints never turn the grace of God into an excuse to ignore the very commands of God, but the very mention of eternal love leads them to careful obedience."

here are some great articles i recommend reading regarding this doctrine:

Eternal Security, Charles Spurgeon (http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/2120.htm)

Never Perish, J.C. Ryle (http://www.biblebb.com/files/ryle/never_perish.htm)

I think the portion most refer to as not biblical is the fact that one can at times assume that they know the future with the doctrine. I think Christ sacrafice is "once and for all" Problem being is who is to say who is and isn't saved. That's always the problem I have with these doctrines. They make the assumption that one already knows who is saved. Even the disciples themselves asked Christ "who will be saved." I think it's good to preach these things from a biblical perspective, and not make believing or adhering to such doctrines a salvific issue.

In Christ,

Stephen

BrokenOne
Jul 28th 2008, 04:01 PM
That is a good point on eternal life. I never considered that question as to it being "eternal" if one can lose it. I appreciate that perspective. It gives me a new direction to study.

As for the not making this an issue of salvation, I agree. Sadly, though, the modern church puts a lot of emphasis on doctrinal issues. Especially when one is entering the professional ministry. I believe that the modern church puts way too much focus on these issues and deducts their focus from Christ.

Thanks for all the posts. These have been great responses.

threebigrocks
Jul 28th 2008, 04:38 PM
I think the portion most refer to as not biblical is the fact that one can at times assume that they know the future with the doctrine. I think Christ sacrafice is "once and for all" Problem being is who is to say who is and isn't saved. That's always the problem I have with these doctrines. They make the assumption that one already knows who is saved. Even the disciples themselves asked Christ "who will be saved." I think it's good to preach these things from a biblical perspective, and not make believing or adhering to such doctrines a salvific issue.

In Christ,

Stephen

We, man, slap labels on things to be able to identify and relate to them. Thing is, sadly, we use our own knowledge to do so. Are there elements of biblical salvation in both legs of these doctrines? Yes.

If we cannot know the future, then why perseverance, hope, promise? Christ died so that those who believe in Him after repenting and turning from sin and walking the faith can have that hope in the completion of their salvation. That namely the resurrection of our bodies, obtaining our own righteousness and living with Him for eternity.

We can know who is saved of the spirit and awaiting the resurrection. We recognize another believer when we see them, don't we?

Friend of I AM
Jul 28th 2008, 04:55 PM
We, man, slap labels on things to be able to identify and relate to them. Thing is, sadly, we use our own knowledge to do so. Are there elements of biblical salvation in both legs of these doctrines? Yes.

If we cannot know the future, then why perseverance, hope, promise?


That's a good question. Perhaps those things unto themselves are what keep us going and demonstrate God's salvific faith in our lives, even though we do not entirely know our future outcomes. Perhaps perservering even not knowing one's outcome, is what demonstrates the love and faith of God within us, as we are not doing these things for selfish reasons, but instead - doing them for God despite whatever outcome God has in store for us.




Christ died so that those who believe in Him after repenting and turning from sin and walking the faith can have that hope in the completion of their salvation. That namely the resurrection of our bodies, obtaining our own righteousness and living with Him for eternity.


Agreed.



We can know who is saved of the spirit and awaiting the resurrection. We recognize another believer when we see them, don't we?

We can't know whose names are written in the book of life, but we can have faith in God's promises, and his ability to do all things.

Friend of I AM
Jul 28th 2008, 05:24 PM
That is a good point on eternal life. I never considered that question as to it being "eternal" if one can lose it. I appreciate that perspective. It gives me a new direction to study.

As for the not making this an issue of salvation, I agree. Sadly, though, the modern church puts a lot of emphasis on doctrinal issues. Especially when one is entering the professional ministry. I believe that the modern church puts way too much focus on these issues and deducts their focus from Christ.

Thanks for all the posts. These have been great responses.


No problem man. A lot of man made terms/doctrines can often bring about confusion as to what the bible really says. I believe God knows who is really trying to understand him and do his will and who is just trying to confuse when using these terminologies/doctrines in discussion, so there's no reason to get caught up in disputes about wording. God bless in Christian love.

Stephen

Mograce2U
Jul 28th 2008, 05:30 PM
I think the portion most refer to as not biblical is the fact that one can at times assume that they know the future with the doctrine. I think Christ sacrafice is "once and for all" Problem being is who is to say who is and isn't saved. That's always the problem I have with these doctrines. They make the assumption that one already knows who is saved. Even the disciples themselves asked Christ "who will be saved." I think it's good to preach these things from a biblical perspective, and not make believing or adhering to such doctrines a salvific issue.

In Christ,

StephenPerhaps these verses will help:

(John 17:3 KJV) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(2 Cor 5:1 KJV) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

(1 John 3:15 KJV) Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

(1 John 5:13 KJV) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

(1 John 5:20 KJV) And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Ron Brown
Jul 28th 2008, 05:41 PM
How soon people forget John 3:16.

Whoever believes on Christ has everlasting life.

The Greek word for everlasting is "aionios" which means- without beginning and end, that which HAS ALWAYS BEEN and ALWAYS WILL BE.

So as you can clearly see, you can't lose that which is everlasting. It has always been and will always be.

Partaker of Christ
Jul 28th 2008, 06:38 PM
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Do you love God:

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

If we love God, then all things work together for good to those of us who love Him.

If we love Him, and then somehow fall to the point of 'not having the Son', then (IMHO) Rom 8:28 seems to have a problem.

ProjectPeter
Jul 28th 2008, 08:01 PM
Seems were are getting a lot more OSAS folk of late... might be time for one of them there formal debates in the Arena! Haven't had one in a long time. :lol:

faithfulfriend
Jul 28th 2008, 08:14 PM
Seems were are getting a lot more OSAS folk of late... might be time for one of them there formal debates in the Arena! Haven't had one in a long time. :lol:

I posted my points concerning OSAS in another thread recently, but nobody bothered to respond to the points I presented, and it was just ignored. I will post it here now....

I. Parables that show the possibility of falling from grace.
1. The sower and the seed (or the soil). Matthew 13:1-23; especially verses 20-21: Mt 13:20-21 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. Also Luke 8:4-15; especially verse 13: Lu 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. Note that Matthew has that they “endured” (were saved) for a time, then were offended. Luke has that many believed for a time, then fell away.

2. The vine and the branches (John 15:1-8). Note verse two: Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Branches that are in Christ (new creatures II Cor. 5:17) are “taken away” (cut off) if they do not bear fruit. Same thought in verse six: Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

3. The lost sheep (Matthew 18:12-14). This sheep was once with the shepherd (Christ) but strayed away from Christ, then was brought back. The argument that this sheep was still secure because it was still a sheep is invalid. In this parable the saved are represented by the sheep in the fold. The unsaved (lost) are represented by the sheep that is lost. Once it was saved, then lost.

4. The fruitless tree (Luke 13:6-9), teaches exactly the same truth as the fruitless branch of John 15.

5. The five foolish virgins (Matthew 25:1-13). These virgins had lights (were saved) but these lights went out. They were rejected.

II. Some did backslide.
1. Peter (Matthew 26:69-75). He denied Christ. One who does this cannot be a Christian. Luke 22:32 teaches that Peter had a second conversion following his defection: Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

2. Judas. Judas was given the same power as the other apostles. Had he not been a Christian, this would have been impossible. Judas fell (ceased to be in grace) through transgression. Acts 1:25: That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. The Bible does not say he was a devil from the beginning. In John 6:70, Judas is called a devil (opposer) just like Peter is called Satan (opposer) in Matthew 16:23.

3. Hymaenaeus and Alexander. I Timothy 1:19-20: Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

III. Apostasy is shown to be possible.
1. Ezekiel 33:18: When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. This is a prophecy of the gospel dispensation.

2. Romans 11:20-21: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Christians can be cut off.

3. I Corinthians 8:11: And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? It is possible for a weak brother to PERISH through our uncharitable activities.

4. I Corinthians 9:27: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. As great as Paul was, he knew he could still be lost.

5. I Corinthians 10:12: Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. An admonition showing the possibility of apostacy.

6. Galatians 5:4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. People can “fall from grace.”

7. I Thessalonians 3:5: For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain. If these failed under temptations, Paul’s labors in getting them saved would be wasted labor.

8. I Timothy 5:11-12: But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. Those who cast off their first faith are damned.

9. Hebrews 3:6, 12, 14:
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Admonitions showing the possibility of falling.

10. Hebrews 4:11: Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. We can fall just as the Israelites did.

11. Hebrews 6:4-6: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. These passages very strongly show the possibility of final and complete apostasy, as well as backsliding. (As well as Hebrews 10:26-39)

12. Hebrews 12:15: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; It is possible for one to fail (lack) the grace of God after having had it at one time.

13. James 5:19-20: Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. People who have departed from the truth require a second conversion experience.

14. II Peter 1:10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: An admonition to avoid falling from grace.

15. II Peter 2:20-22: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. A strong statement showing how apostasy can come.

16. Revelation 3:14-16: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. God will not tolerate unwholesome conditions.

mikebr
Jul 28th 2008, 08:15 PM
How soon people forget John 3:16.

Whoever believes on Christ has everlasting life.

The Greek word for everlasting is "aionios" which means- without beginning and end, that which HAS ALWAYS BEEN and ALWAYS WILL BE.

So as you can clearly see, you can't lose that which is everlasting. It has always been and will always be.

This could get interesting.

RabbiKnife
Jul 28th 2008, 08:24 PM
Memory fails here, but I believe that "believeth on Him" is perhaps aorist tense? Includes the concept of beginning to believe at one point and continuing on in that belief?

"Everlasting" does not necessarily mean "having no beginning." Best of my recollection, only God, of everything in the universe or in existence otherwise, has no beginning.

Firefighter
Jul 28th 2008, 08:46 PM
You would be correct Rabbi, We can see this in John 17:3...

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Eternal life begins at the moment we come to know God through Jesus Christ. If you are saved, eternal life has already begun...:bounce:

Partaker of Christ
Jul 28th 2008, 09:19 PM
The life we receive is His life. The uncreated everlasting life.

mikebr
Jul 28th 2008, 09:23 PM
The life we receive is His life. The uncreated everlasting life.


Bingo! its all about Quality not quantity.

grace_saved
Jul 28th 2008, 09:55 PM
Hi.

With regard to the question as to whether we have eternal security or not, I can only answer it with a question:

Are we prepared to take a chance?

My own thought is that I work daily at my salvation because if I were to settle for the OSAS mindset, it may make me a lazy Christian!

Ron Brown
Jul 28th 2008, 09:57 PM
Hi.

With regard to the question as to whether we have eternal security or not, I can only answer it with a question:

Are we prepared to take a chance?

My own thought is that I work daily at my salvation because if I were to settle for the OSAS mindset, it may make me a lazy Christian!

Good Christian attitude to take. You can't lose your salvation, but you shouldn't live like you can't.

immortality
Jul 28th 2008, 10:37 PM
My own thought is that I work daily at my salvation because if I were to settle for the OSAS mindset, it may make me a lazy Christian!
i tend to look at it in another light. i know i may have my periods of laziness, but surely jesus never will. i may have my periods of unfaithfulness, but surely jesus never will.

as charles spurgeon says, "nothing binds me to my lord like the thought of his unceasing, everlasting love".

it is not our own ability to remain on the narrow path that should motivate us, but rather god's ability.

ProjectPeter
Jul 28th 2008, 10:41 PM
i tend to look at it in another light. i know i may have my periods of laziness, but surely jesus never will. i may have my periods of unfaithfulness, but surely jesus never will.

as charles spurgeon says, "nothing binds me to my lord like the thought of his unceasing, everlasting love".

it is not our own ability to remain on the narrow path that should motivate us, but rather god's ability.
So why then are we told that few go down that narrow path and most the wide one? God isn't pulling you down either. You have to choose which path to walk.

immortality
Jul 28th 2008, 10:54 PM
So why then are we told that few go down that narrow path and most the wide one? God isn't pulling you down either. You have to choose which path to walk.

i think one of the reasons people disregard the doctrine of eternal security is because they want to believe it is entirely up to their performance, and not god's. they would like to believe themselves capable of sanctification, regeneration, and final perseverance, when in fact that credit belongs entirely to god.

that being said, we need to realize that our "choice" to walk down the narrow path is a gift of grace in itself. left to our carnal flesh, without the grace of god, surely we would choose the broad way.

remember, jesus said we didn't choose him, but rather he chose us.

ProjectPeter
Jul 28th 2008, 11:02 PM
i think one of the reasons people disregard the doctrine of eternal security is because they want to believe it is entirely up to their performance, and not god's. our flesh always wants to take the credit and believe ourselves to be capable of sanctification, regeneration, and final perseverance.There are probably some sure... just as there are those on the OSAS side that think Eternal Security is fire insurance and their get out of hell free card and live today for tomorrow we die. In other words... not many think that.


that being said, we need to realize that our "choice" to walk down the narrow path is a gift of grace in itself. left to our carnal flesh, without the grace of god, surely we would choose the broad way.

jesus said we didn't choose him, but rather that he chose us.No. Jesus told the apostle's that. ;) There is a distinction. While there is certainly application to us in that passage... folks need be careful to not make it other than what it is. The Lord chooses His ministers and yeah... that is what he is speaking of. Same can be shown in Ephesians 4. But this isn't Jesus speaking to the multitude this time.

Partaker of Christ
Jul 28th 2008, 11:45 PM
There are probably some sure... just as there are those on the OSAS side that think Eternal Security is fire insurance and their get out of hell free card and live today for tomorrow we die. In other words... not many think that.

So, because some may or may not use their liberty as a licence, we ought to avoid teaching what is truth?

We are told to seek and have our hearts 'full assurance' (assurance is not insurance: Insurance is for what might happen, assurance is for what will happen)

Heb 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

My anchor is on the Rock, your anchor is on the boat (I must do the enduring)
If our faith is in Christ (and Christ alone) we will endure. If our faith is in Christ + I must do, then you are in danger of being tossed around when the storms come.



No. Jesus told the apostle's that. ;) There is a distinction. While there is certainly application to us in that passage... folks need be careful to not make it other than what it is. The Lord chooses His ministers and yeah... that is what he is speaking of. Same can be shown in Ephesians 4. But this isn't Jesus speaking to the multitude this time.

Is there then a distinction who Jesus spoke to regarding the strait gate, or do you now change the rules to suit your doctrine?

Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luke 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Luke 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
Luke 13:30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Mograce2U
Jul 29th 2008, 01:27 AM
The seed which is planted in us is the word of God, which when sown in good soil puts down deep roots and springs up to bear the fruit of eternal life. While that seed is germinating seems to be the time when great care must be taken to keep the seed alive. A careless gardener cannot expect a bountiful harvest if he lets the weeds and bugs ruin his crop. The seed is good and God will send the needed rain (Holy Spirit), but the soil is the garden of our heart that we must tend it if we expect this plant to thrive and bring its expected end. When God put Adam in a garden it was for him to do the work. I don't see this grace we have been given as an all or nothing deal. We are expected to do our part as we trust in God to do His. God didn't send Adam into the garden to play...

BrokenOne
Jul 29th 2008, 11:23 AM
OK, this is what bothers me about the church today. We want to point fingers at each other and say you are wrong in believing this. Jesus' garden prayer included a request for unity.

I know I asked the question and started this thread and this is the response I figured I would get.

Where is the unity? Instead of brothers and sisters in Christ coming forth and saying, "What does it matter?" we are so eager to jump in and argue amongst ourselves about minor doctrinal issues.

I said I had come to my own conclusions about this from reading Scripture. Well, I will now throw in my two cents.

"Why worry about it when it is ultimately up to the Lord? As long as I am doing what God wants me too then I need not worry about it."

We need to seek to love each as the Lord loved is and not try and argue our point. The previous reply really bothers me and I am sorry if I offend the writer by saying this.

*EDIT* Quotes a deleted post

grace_saved
Jul 29th 2008, 11:55 AM
BrokenOne ...

I too have no wish to cause offence, but if you 'figured' these responses before you posted the thread, why post it? What was your motive?

Was there no thought on your part that you might cause someone to stumble? You accuse someone of haughtiness but apologise before you do it! Better to remain silent my friend.

Unfortunately we are flesh too and we like to 'make our point' ... that includes you, theothersock and me. Perhaps we should examine our motives first before making accusation?

BrokenOne
Jul 29th 2008, 12:28 PM
I apologized because of fear that I might cause them to stumble and did not want to seem to say it with malice.

Why do we post anything on this board? We know in general what responses we will get before.

I do not see how you can ask me this when clearly other statements on this thread hold the possibility of causing someone to stumble.

If this were the case then no one would post a thing. I was, at this time, merely making a point that we argue so much among ourselves over these issues we cause instead of keeping our focus on the risen Savior.

Why can I not voice my oppinion on this thread and everyone else can?

I will delete all of my postings if my oppinion is not allowed and I will be a lurker and not post. If anyone would like for me to do this then say so.

grace_saved
Jul 29th 2008, 12:45 PM
Broken One ...

I did not say you could not voice your opinion. If you misunderstood my post then I apologize for not making myself clear. I did say that we should examine our motives though.

God bless.

grace_saved
Jul 29th 2008, 01:13 PM
BrokenOne
You don't have to lurk or delete your postings. I only joined last night and as it seems I have instigated this outburst then I will cease posting as from now. But before I go, I'll write plain and clear what I meant by examining your motives. You posted a thread knowing what replies you were going to get so as (IMO) to make an opening into preaching the Love of the Lord whilst condemning others. You made the moral high ground then took it!

It's all very well and good preaching the love of Jesus but without preaching the wrath of God too, it is a false gospel. What may seem like a minor doctrinal difference to yourself could send someone to hell (which is of course another minor doctrinal difference!)

Thank you one and all for your welcome. My visit was brief but nevertheless enlightening.

God bless you all and may peace be with you.

grptinHisHand
Jul 29th 2008, 01:29 PM
Here is what I believe about eternal security.

I KNOW I have been saved and am eternally secure. :pp God has given this assurance through His Word. I don't mean I think it is a license to live as if what I do isn't important to Him. I believe all who claim Christ as Savior and Lord should allow Him to be LORD. We should reflect Him, His love, to all we meet. That doesn't mean we do that to stay saved. We do it because it is what He has told us to do. I do it out of love for Him, out of a desire to please Him, because I have relationship with Him. Do I always do all He asks of me? No. Do I never fail? I do, but it doesn't make me lost. I repent again, but it isn't to get saved again.
g

I posted the following in a similar thread. It seemed to be ignored. :cry:


http://bibleforums.org/images/icons/icon11.gif Are we leading others astray with our discussions?
Just jumping back in here, with a prayer for any weak, or confused Christians who will read this thread,
or just parts of it
who may be misled!

Dear Lord, protect Your people from misunderstanding Your Word or this discussion.
Amen :pray:

BrokenOne
Jul 29th 2008, 02:16 PM
BrokenOne
You don't have to lurk or delete your postings. I only joined last night and as it seems I have instigated this outburst then I will cease posting as from now. But before I go, I'll write plain and clear what I meant by examining your motives. You posted a thread knowing what replies you were going to get so as (IMO) to make an opening into preaching the Love of the Lord whilst condemning others. You made the moral high ground then took it!

It's all very well and good preaching the love of Jesus but without preaching the wrath of God too, it is a false gospel. What may seem like a minor doctrinal difference to yourself could send someone to hell (which is of course another minor doctrinal difference!)

Thank you one and all for your welcome. My visit was brief but nevertheless enlightening.

God bless you all and may peace be with you.

I am not asking you to leave either. I was truly interested in others oppinions. Nor did I intend on making anyone angry or want anyone to leave. Nor did I want to be preachy. I wanted to get everyone's oppinion on this subject. What bothered me was some were making this an argument. I was not looking for an argument just oppinions. I apologize for making you feel the need to leave.

ProjectPeter
Jul 29th 2008, 02:48 PM
Eternal life begins at the moment we come to know God through Jesus Christ. If you are saved, eternal life has already begun...:bounce:If I can show you a MULTITUDE of Scripture that teaches otherwise.... would you accept it?

ProjectPeter
Jul 29th 2008, 02:53 PM
So, because some may or may not use their liberty as a licence, we ought to avoid teaching what is truth?
We are told to seek and have our hearts 'full assurance' (assurance is not insurance: Insurance is for what might happen, assurance is for what will happen)

Heb 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

My anchor is on the Rock, your anchor is on the boat (I must do the enduring)
If our faith is in Christ (and Christ alone) we will endure. If our faith is in Christ + I must do, then you are in danger of being tossed around when the storms come.And you totally missed my point. ;)

And the anchor comment... am I wrong? Does Scripture say we must endure or does it not say it. Yes it does or no it doesn't... there is no other answer so hey do something novel and actually answer with a yes or no? ;)



Is there then a distinction who Jesus spoke to regarding the strait gate, or do you now change the rules to suit your doctrine?

Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luke 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Luke 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
Luke 13:30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.Sure there is. Here Jesus is speaking to the multitudes. ;) If you read you will find he is speaking to all of the people in the synagogue. ;) Just a wee read and you'll see that would certainly be in context.

ProjectPeter
Jul 29th 2008, 02:56 PM
OK, this is what bothers me about the church today. We want to point fingers at each other and say you are wrong in believing this. Jesus' garden prayer included a request for unity.

I know I asked the question and started this thread and this is the response I figured I would get.

Where is the unity? Instead of brothers and sisters in Christ coming forth and saying, "What does it matter?" we are so eager to jump in and argue amongst ourselves about minor doctrinal issues. Uh... but it does matter. ;)



I said I had come to my own conclusions about this from reading Scripture. Well, I will now throw in my two cents.

"Why worry about it when it is ultimately up to the Lord? As long as I am doing what God wants me too then I need not worry about it."

We need to seek to love each as the Lord loved is and not try and argue our point. The previous reply really bothers me and I am sorry if I offend the writer by saying this.

Theothersock wrote this, "BOOM. End of discussion."

This was haughty in all senses and not wanted from a Christian. No one needs to try and rub someones, especially another Christian, faces in anything.

In arguing amongst ourselves what do we show the world?

Afterall, it's in loving each other that the world will know we are His!Why can I not argue with someone I love? There are plenty of folks on here that I absolute think the world of and love them dearly. Don't agree with them on some doctrinal stuff sure enough. Matter of fact... with some of them I think they are dead wrong. Still love them though. You are making up rules that don't have to exist and only do if you make disagreement on stuff a hate thing. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jul 29th 2008, 03:00 PM
And come on guys. Certainly if we are all grown up enough to give our opionion, debate, discuss, or even spell... we can do it without all the "must I leave" drama! Goodness. It is a DISCUSSION forum. We discuss. Even debate. No sin in it unless you make it sinful.

awestruckchild
Jul 29th 2008, 03:25 PM
Eternal security is the issue. Some believe that once we are born again we are OSAS - we are sealed and that is that and nothing can remove our hope of salvation. Some believe that once we are born again we are NOSAS - we are sealed but must produce fruit of the spirit in keeping in line with the faith walk. We have our part to do to remain close to Him.

Broken One, don't worry about there being another thread of this sort. :) This is occationally discussed here and for you to bring up to topic is fine. To keep 1 topic in 1 thread and that's that wouldn't make this place near as interesting as it can get to be! Welcome to the board!

Threebigrocks-
The way you just stated that - it was like a focus knob got tweaked in my mind!
There really is a place where 2 paths diverge:
1. Sealed then must produce
2. Sealled then will produce

grptinHisHand
Jul 29th 2008, 03:33 PM
paintdiva,
I had not noticed this particular part of threebigrocks' post until you pointed it out this way.
I am a believer in eternal security, but I also believe we need to remain close to God. I don't think that means I agree NOSAS.

:hmm:
g

Buck shot
Jul 29th 2008, 03:37 PM
Threebigrocks-
The way you just stated that - it was like a focus knob got tweaked in my mind!
There really is a place where 2 paths diverge:
1. Sealed then must produce
2. Sealled then will produce


I know, I know....

It's #2 :kiss:

Buck shot
Jul 29th 2008, 03:42 PM
paintdiva,
I had not noticed this particular part of threebigrocks' post until you pointed it out this way.
I am a believer in eternal security, but I also believe we need to remain close to God. I don't think that means I agree NOSAS.

:hmm:
g


IMO, we should examine our lives, are we producing good fruit? Do we feel a need to produce good fruit (good works)? If you answer no to either the you are not very secure and should be trying to figure out why. If you answer yes then I would think that there is someone indwelling you that is guiding you to serve God because our carnal flesh does not want to do the works of God.

Friend of I AM
Jul 29th 2008, 03:45 PM
Perhaps these verses will help:

(John 17:3 KJV) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(2 Cor 5:1 KJV) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

(1 John 3:15 KJV) Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

(1 John 5:13 KJV) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

(1 John 5:20 KJV) And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.


Thanks Robin. Here's some more verses to add to what you've stated.

2 Timothy 2:13-15
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

So it's not our faithfulness that brings us to salvation and gives us a sense of eternal security, but instead God's faithfulness to us. I still think it's good for one to be careful in making assumptions about what God's plans are in the long run for each individual. I think as posted in the above verses, the words themselves are not that important, but whether or not we hear and understand the message is. God bless in Christ.

Stephen

grptinHisHand
Jul 29th 2008, 03:47 PM
IMO, we should examine our lives, are we producing good fruit? Do we feel a need to produce good fruit (good works)? If you answer no to either the you are not very secure and should be trying to figure out why. If you answer yes then I would think that there is someone indwelling you that is guiding you to serve God because our carnal flesh does not want to do the works of God.

:hug: Yes! Oh, yes, I believe we need to produce good fruit, good works. I just do not think it is what keeps us saved. I believe God does that through His grace. I KNOW that I am secure in Christ. :pp
g

awestruckchild
Jul 29th 2008, 03:49 PM
paintdiva,
I had not noticed this particular part of threebigrocks' post until you pointed it out this way.
I am a believer in eternal security, but I also believe we need to remain close to God. I don't think that means I agree NOSAS.

:hmm:
g

Hi grpt-very nice to meet you!
I do believe OSAS too. I would be forever uncertain on it though if the Holy Spirit had not spoke directly to me while I read two particular vss. I am so glad He did this and gave me this comfort and peace regarding it.
-This is His promise - eternal life.
and No one can snatch them from His hand.

faithfulfriend
Jul 29th 2008, 03:52 PM
Hi grpt-very nice to meet you!
I do believe OSAS too. I would be forever uncertain on it though if the Holy Spirit had not spoke directly to me while I read two particular vss. I am so glad He did this and gave me this comfort and peace regarding it.
-This is His promise - eternal life.
and No one can snatch them from His hand.

Nobody has yet to discuss the points I have presented in post #25. If we want to discuss OSAS, I feel that the points I have presented would be very valuable in this discussion.

Ignoring the points presented by others sometimes shows a lack of interest in learning the Bible....

awestruckchild
Jul 29th 2008, 04:12 PM
Nobody has yet to discuss the points I have presented in post #25. If we want to discuss OSAS, I feel that the points I have presented would be very valuable in this discussion.

Ignoring the points presented by others sometimes shows a lack of interest in learning the Bible....

I am sorry you felt like your post was ignored faithfulfreind.
I read it but I am simply not capable of arguing against the promises He has assured me of.

I am interested in learning the bible I just have no interest in learning it in any way that causes it to argue against His voice in me but rather to affirm what He has told me.

Peace to you!

RogerW
Jul 29th 2008, 04:13 PM
IMO, we should examine our lives, are we producing good fruit? Do we feel a need to produce good fruit (good works)? If you answer no to either the you are not very secure and should be trying to figure out why. If you answer yes then I would think that there is someone indwelling you that is guiding you to serve God because our carnal flesh does not want to do the works of God.

Greetings Buck shot,

The statement highlighted above equates good fruit with good works. Are you saying that good fruit is the result of good works, or good works is the result of good fruit? When we liken having good fruit as the result of doing good works, then good fruit is no longer a gift from our Lord. But the fruit of the Spirit comes from above, not from within.

Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ga 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

If we have received the fruit of the Spirit, manifested by the above, then good works will follow. But I do not believe that good fruit (Spiritual gift) is obtained through doing good works.

Many Blessings,
RW

Mograce2U
Jul 29th 2008, 04:18 PM
Thanks Robin. Here's some more verses to add to what you've stated.

2 Timothy 2:13-15
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

So it's not our faithfulness that brings us to salvation and gives us a sense of eternal security, but instead God's faithfulness to us. I still think it's good for one to be careful in making assumptions about what God's plans are in the long run for each individual. I think as posted in the above verses, the words themselves are not that important, but whether or not we hear and understand the message is. God bless in Christ.

StephenAnd a good verse it is. One cannot know Christ and deny Him at the same time. The striving over words can be subversive to the hearers. That word translated subverting is 2692. katastrophe - it means to lead astray, to make apostate. The point made of Jesus' faithfulness is that He cannot deny the truth of who He is - yet we can. It is not giving us assurance that if we turn faithless and unbelieving that He will still claim us as His own - rather the word says He will deny He ever knew us. This is the danger that lies in denying what Jesus has accomplished for us in His birth, life, death and resurrection, while yet proclaiming to have "faith" in Him. Our works and our words do give evidence if we truly have that faith or not.

This is the same witness which Jesus was given to prove He was the One sent by God to be our Savior.

(John 5:36-39 KJV) But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. {37} And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. {38} And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. {39} Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

It is this point which proves that our eschatalogical beliefs are also a salvation issue. For how we look upon those prophecies which were given in the OT about our hope in Christ's coming into the world, speaks volumes as to whether we believe He did what He came to do or not. For it is those scriptures which promised us eternal life in His name.

Friend of I AM
Jul 29th 2008, 04:32 PM
And a good verse it is. One cannot know Christ and deny Him at the same time. The striving over words can be subversive to the hearers. That word translated subverting is 2692. katastrophe - it means to lead astray, to make apostate. The point made of Jesus' faithfulness is that He cannot deny the truth of who He is - yet we can. It is not giving us assurance that if we turn faithless and unbelieving that He will still claim us as His own - rather the word says He will deny He ever knew us. This is the danger that lies in denying what Jesus has accomplished for us in His birth, life, death and resurrection, while yet proclaiming to have "faith" in Him. Our works and our words do give evidence if we truly have that faith or not.

This is the same witness which Jesus was given to prove He was the One sent by God to be our Savior.

(John 5:36-39 KJV) But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. {37} And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. {38} And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. {39} Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Thanks for the post Robin. I'm not familiar with Greek or Latin, but I do know that we need to remember that faith unto itself is never our own, and that the faith that works through us, or the faith that saves us..is a work of God, and not a work of our own.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 3:20-21
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So any work done through us from our point of acceptance of Christ, is no longer a work of man, it is a work of God. This includes our faith in him. This is why the faith that we have in Christ is unfailing, because it has nothing to do with human beings ability to have faith, but instead upon God's ability to remain faithful. It is indeed his faith, not our own. Remember it is no longer we who live, but instead it is Christ who is living through us, keeping us faithful to God. God bless in Christ.

Stephen

Buck shot
Jul 29th 2008, 04:40 PM
Greetings Buck shot,

The statement highlighted above equates good fruit with good works. Are you saying that good fruit is the result of good works, or good works is the result of good fruit? When we liken having good fruit as the result of doing good works, then good fruit is no longer a gift from our Lord. But the fruit of the Spirit comes from above, not from within.

Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ga 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

If we have received the fruit of the Spirit, manifested by the above, then good works will follow. But I do not believe that good fruit (Spiritual gift) is obtained through doing good works.

Many Blessings,
RW

Good catch RW!
I could have worded it better :). When we are saved we should be showing the evidence of the fruit of the Spirit. We should feel a need to do the works of God.

Is that better?

Mograce2U
Jul 29th 2008, 04:40 PM
Stephen, #62 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1728239&postcount=62)
Yet we are responsible for the light we turn to.

(Luke 11:34-36 KJV) The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. {35} Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. {36} If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

(Isa 50:11 KJV) Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

(Mat 6:23-24 KJV) But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! {24} No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

We begin by choosing to serve the Lord and we must continue in that choice so that we become established in the faith once delivered to the saints. Even Billy Graham, the greatest evangelist of our times, no longer preaches the same gospel he once did so fervently. He is now become a Universalist and denies that Jesus is the only way to the Father. The danger is real.

Friend of I AM
Jul 29th 2008, 04:56 PM
Stephen, #62 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1728239&postcount=62)
Yet we are responsible for the light we turn to.

(Luke 11:34-36 KJV) The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. {35} Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. {36} If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

(Isa 50:11 KJV) Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

(Mat 6:23-24 KJV) But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! {24} No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

We begin by choosing to serve the Lord and we must continue in that choice so that we become established in the faith once delivered to the saints. Even Billy Graham, the greatest evangelist of our times, no longer preaches the same gospel he once did so fervently. He is now become a Universalist and denies that Jesus is the only way to the Father. The danger is real.

Good points Robin. I think we all need to pray to God that he is indeed the one guiding our footsteps, and from time to time test ourselves to make sure that we are truly walking in his light.

In Christ,

Stephen

grptinHisHand
Jul 29th 2008, 06:21 PM
Stephen, #62 (http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1728239&postcount=62)
Yet we are responsible for the light we turn to.

(Luke 11:34-36 KJV) The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. {35} Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. {36} If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

(Isa 50:11 KJV) Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

(Mat 6:23-24 KJV) But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! {24} No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

We begin by choosing to serve the Lord and we must continue in that choice so that we become established in the faith once delivered to the saints. Even Billy Graham, the greatest evangelist of our times, no longer preaches the same gospel he once did so fervently. He is now become a Universalist and denies that Jesus is the only way to the Father. The danger is real.

Hi, the part I have highlighted red - where did you learn that? :hmm: It is something I have not heard and find very difficult to believe. (And very sad if it is true. :confused ) Not saying you are wrong just want to know the source. :hug:
g

Mograce2U
Jul 29th 2008, 06:55 PM
Hi, the part I have highlighted red - where did you learn that? :hmm: It is something I have not heard and find very difficult to believe. (And very sad if it is true. :confused ) Not saying you are wrong just want to know the source. :hug:
gYoutube has plenty of videos, see his interview with Schuller in particular.

threebigrocks
Jul 29th 2008, 07:13 PM
Good points Robin. I think we all need to pray to God that he is indeed the one guiding our footsteps, and from time to time test ourselves to make sure that we are truly walking in his light.

In Christ,

Stephen

Question is - how can WE look deep enough into ourselves and rightly test ourselves?

grptinHisHand
Jul 29th 2008, 07:22 PM
Youtube has plenty of videos, see his interview with Schuller in particular.

Sad! Really. :cry:
Thanks for the info. I don't have a lot of faith in just everything on youtube, but I know there is some great stuff there. However, I googled (after asking you) and found all sorts of info on this. It seems the Newsweek interview was in August 2006.
Wonder why I'd not heard anything about this before. Shows I am behind on the 'news'. Thanks again for the heads up.
g

Buck shot
Jul 29th 2008, 07:23 PM
Hi, the part I have highlighted red - where did you learn that? :hmm: It is something I have not heard and find very difficult to believe. (And very sad if it is true. :confused ) Not saying you are wrong just want to know the source. :hug:
g


Youtube has plenty of videos, see his interview with Schuller in particular.

I agree, I have never heard Billy Graham teach that there is any other way to be saved but thru Christ. Can you give a little more direction or a link as to prove this before we leave here thinking something of someone that may not be true?

If your right then i feel bad for Him but if you are incorrect then we need to get it straight and not spread this any further.:hmm:

grptinHisHand
Jul 29th 2008, 07:38 PM
I agree, I have never heard Billy Graham teach that there is any other way to be saved but thru Christ. Can you give a little more direction or a link as to prove this before we leave here thinking something of someone that may not be true?

If your right then i feel bad for Him but if you are incorrect then we need to get it straight and not spread this any further.:hmm:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51461

This is one I have found. Still doing my research.
g :cry::cry:

Buck shot
Jul 29th 2008, 07:45 PM
Here is the link to the statement of faith from Graham's website and one of the bullets that do not go along with what the media is saying:

http://www.billygraham.org/StatementOfFaith.asp

That all men everywhere are lost and face the judgment of God, and need to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through His shed blood on the cross.

grptinHisHand
Jul 29th 2008, 08:04 PM
Here is the link to the statement of faith from Graham's website and one of the bullets that do not go along with what the media is saying:


http://www.billygraham.org/StatementOfFaith.asp

That all men everywhere are lost and face the judgment of God, and need to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through His shed blood on the cross.


Thanks. I feel much better now.
g

Friend of I AM
Jul 29th 2008, 08:07 PM
Question is - how can WE look deep enough into ourselves and rightly test ourselves?

Use the Word of God. Pray on it. Ask God to guide us in the right direction. Those are the only ways I know of in terms of testing ourselves. After we've gone through the point of testing, we just need to let go and let God. I think the best remark was given by the Apostle Paul when he stated, I judge nothing of myself before the appointed time. So it's best probably to wait for the light of Christ to open up the hearts of each man, and determine what each man's true intentions were within his life. Until that point we should just have confidence and faith in God that we are doing the right thing, and pray that he rebukes us moving forward if we're doing the wrong thing.

In Christ,

Stephen

SIG
Jul 30th 2008, 05:12 AM
Is eternal security "secure"?

Mine is! :D

ProDeo
Jul 30th 2008, 09:12 AM
Is eternal security "secure"?

Mine is! :D

Mine as well. That is, as long as I abide in Christ, else He might cut me off.

1 ¶ I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

There are too many verses that speak directly against OSAS, see post #25 of this thread. And not so long ago I was an OSAS believer :lol:

Ed

Friend of I AM
Jul 30th 2008, 01:55 PM
There was an interesting thing that Christ stated to his disciples...it went something along the lines of "there are so many people forcing their way into the kingdom of heaven.." I think it's good to remember that one has security in Christ, just be careful to realize that God himself in the primary one in control of every man's destiny.

In Christ,

Stephen

Mograce2U
Jul 30th 2008, 05:15 PM
Mine as well. That is, as long as I abide in Christ, else He might cut me off.

1 ¶ I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

There are too many verses that speak directly against OSAS, see post #25 of this thread. And not so long ago I was an OSAS believer :lol:

EdThe big problem I have with how the debate always goes is that one side must assume one can "lose" salvation, while the other seems to think they can have it through no fault of their own. Neither position is true.

(Col 2:2 KJV) That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgment of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

(Heb 6:11 KJV) And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

(Heb 10:22 KJV) Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

There are my 3 witnesses for how full assurance is attained.

(Deu 32:39 KJV) See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

(John 10:28-29 KJV) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. {29} My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


(Heb 3:12-14 KJV) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. {13} But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. {14} For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


(Heb 9:14 KJV) How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


(Heb 10:30-31 KJV) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. {31} It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


The right fear of God will give us all the assurance we need! Either salvation or judgment will come from the hand of the Lord depending upon which path you choose.

ProDeo
Jul 30th 2008, 06:02 PM
The big problem I have with how the debate always goes is that one side must assume one can "lose" salvation, while the other seems to think they can have it through no fault of their own. Neither position is true.

I don't understand what you mean with the second position but regarding the first: one can lose its salvation or not, there is no in between. Or are you saying salvation is given after we have finished our stay on Earth? Perhaps you can rephrase the above a bit, I find it quite confusing. But maybe it's my lack of understanding as English is not my native language.


(Col 2:2 KJV) That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgment of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

(Heb 6:11 KJV) And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

(Heb 10:22 KJV) Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

There are my 3 witnesses for how full assurance is attained.

(Deu 32:39 KJV) See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

(John 10:28-29 KJV) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. {29} My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

(Heb 3:12-14 KJV) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. {13} But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. {14} For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

(Heb 9:14 KJV) How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

(Heb 10:30-31 KJV) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. {31} It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The right fear of God will give us all the assurance we need! Either salvation or judgment will come from the hand of the Lord depending upon which path you choose.

For sure, no disagreements. But I fail to see the point you are making. You are OSAS?

Ed

Mograce2U
Jul 30th 2008, 06:15 PM
I don't understand what you mean with the second position but regarding the first: one can lose its salvation or not, there is no in between. Or are you saying salvation is given after we have finished our stay on Earth? Perhaps you can rephrase the above a bit, I find it quite confusing. But maybe it's my lack of understanding as English is not my native language.
....

For sure, no disagreements. But I fail to see the point you are making. You are OSAS?

EdI guess the point I had hoped to make is that salvation is not "lost" as though we had no hand in it - as if it were no fault of our own. Nor is it kept apart from our due diligence to make it secure. We must labor to enter into our rest if we hope that salvation is to be our end and not judgment, pursuing the thing we desire by continuing in the full assurance of our faith, hope and understanding of what that salvation is all about which Christ wrought for us upon the cross. Those who look upon the blood of Christ as if God were now winking at our sin, are failing to consider the price paid for the grace we have been given. IOW, their conscience has not yet been purged of the sin that so easily besets them. Such an attitude is one that will bring judgment for their sins - not salvation. Instead the way that has been opened to us is to approach the throne of grace boldly to lay hold of His grace and mercy that we might be sanctified by His blood and be healed of the thing which has made us lame. If we fail to draw near to God in this way, desiring to forsake our sin and be cleansed; there is no other way that has been given to us which can do this.

Some take the attitude that a childhood friend of mine did that she could go to confession on Friday and be free to sin again on Saturday. Thinking she could always go back and confess again... That was the blood of bulls of goats she had in mind - not the blood of Christ!

melpointy
Jul 30th 2008, 07:26 PM
We begin by choosing to serve the Lord and we must continue in that choice so that we become established in the faith once delivered to the saints. Even Billy Graham, the greatest evangelist of our times, no longer preaches the same gospel he once did so fervently. He is now become a Universalist and denies that Jesus is the only way to the Father. The danger is real.

Is this really true. I have just read part of his book and he had the prayer of salvation to jesus in it. Kinda upset there is nothing else to back this up but that one article?


As for my belief I do believe we can loose are eternal salvation if we dont live by faith in Christ alone, walk in his footsteps, follow his commandments, and endure until the end. It is a narrow path and the devil will always try to sway you so put on the full armor of God.

Friend of I AM
Jul 30th 2008, 08:03 PM
The big problem I have with how the debate always goes is that one side must assume one can "lose" salvation, while the other seems to think they can have it through no fault of their own. Neither position is true.


Hey Robyn,

Salvation unto itself is something that is only attainable through faith in Christ, and it is truly an act of mercy that anyone actually receives salvation. Now what I think you're trying above to do is make the distinction between "saving" faith, and just simply stating "I believe God exists" type of faith. "Saving" faith is the faith that comes from God, and that is the type of faith where if one is faithless(or if one doubts at time in their own walk) - God will remain faithful to his promises. That's the type of faith that guarantees salvation. Thank the Lord for that! I doubt myself many times in my walk, fortunately I don't have to depend on my own ability to have faith in order to reach the prize! Christ's faith keeps me with him.

Think of the situation with Peter walking on the water, and then losing faith in Christ and sinking to the ground. Remember what Christ said to Peter? Paraphrased "Peter so little faith" right before he lifted up Peter from sinking into the water. Christ did not abandon Peter even though he was weak in the flesh that one time and lost faith, and what he did for Peter, he will also do for others.

Now the other portion I think you are talking about regarding Paul talking about "unbelief" in Heb 3:12, has nothing to do with our occassional stumbles or doubts we have during our walk. This has to do with those who completely leave the faith, and completely turn away from God. That is an evil heart of unbelief. Even with that type of unbelief unto itself, I think it is still possible for God to demonstrate mercy upon people after turning away, but this is not without consequence as Paul then goes on to mention in Heb 10:31 that it is a "terrible thing" to fall into the hands of the living God after admonishing the grace given to us by his son.

So I think you're on the right track. We definitely need the saving faith of Christ within our walks in order to have eternal security. Our own faith won't get us anywhere.

In Christian Love,

Stephen

Mograce2U
Jul 30th 2008, 08:20 PM
Stephen,
I think it has more to do with not trusting God once you know the truth of what Christ has wrought for us at the cross. This is the unbelief that Israel fell into in the wilderness after seeing the great deliverance God had done thru Moses. It has to do with not understanding how we are kept in the power of God by the blood of Christ and failing to avail ourselves of what it is that is sanctifying us. Israel fell to grumbling against God, detesting the manna He provided and lusting after the desires of their flesh instead. Jesus is the Manna - the Bread of Life God has sent. Those who have no appetite for the word of God are bound to fall to grumbling and blaming God because in this life they see no benefit to be had. We must desire to be made clean and pursue the way that has been shown to us to avail ourselves of it by faith. The blood of Christ will purge our conscience but not so as to free us to sin even more, but rather so that we can learn to do right. Because without peace and holiness no one is going to see the Lord - Heb 12:14

Friend of I AM
Jul 30th 2008, 08:35 PM
Stephen,
I think it has more to do with not trusting God once you know the truth of what Christ has wrought for us at the cross.


Remember going forward with fear and trembling. Remember we also at time have fearful hearts(being human) and at times are subject to stumble due to these human limitations. We trust, but at times we are afraid. We stumble and at times do not trust. We are human. We are not God. No one has perfect faith but Christ. Only his faith and mercy can save an individual.




This is the unbelief that Israel fell into in the wilderness after seeing the great deliverance God had done thru Moses. It has to do with not understanding how we are kept in the power of God by the blood of Christ and failing to avail ourselves of what it is that is sanctifying us. Israel fell to grumbling against God, detesting the manna He provided and lusting after the desires of their flesh instead. Jesus is the Manna - the Bread of Life God has sent. Those who have no appetite for the word of God are bound to fall to grumbling and blaming God because in this life they see no benefit to be had.


It has nothing to do with our understanding, but everything to do with the understanding, wisdom and mercy of God. Israel lost faith, and to this day many Israelites have perished due to this lack of faith - but despite their lack of faith, God will keep his promises to Israel.



We must desire to be made clean and pursue the way that has been shown to us to avail ourselves of it by faith. The blood of Christ will purge our conscience but not so as to free us to sin even more, but rather so that we can learn to do right.


The Holiness that we receive, can only come through faith in Christ. NO one is justified by themselves or their own merits. Even though at times our consciences may condemn us, we have to remember that the judgement of God is greater than that of our consciences.



Because without peace and holiness no one is going to see the Lord - Heb 12:14

Remember though, that holiness only comes through our faith in him. Also don't forget that our peace is not the same as the worlds version of peace, it comes from knowing that we have peace with God through faith in the sacrafice of his son.

God bless in Christ. Stephen

SIG
Jul 31st 2008, 04:05 AM
It may be a mistake to try to find the workings of salvation in Christ by looking at OT pictures. No one in the OT was indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit. Some of them were saved by looking forward; some of us are now saved, looking back. But we have an advantage on this side of the cross--the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

None of my works saved me; none of my diligence will keep me saved. Grace saved me, and grace assures me.

So may I continue to sin, that grace may abound? May it never be! Many respond immediately to the idea of assurance of salvation with, "So you can sin all you want?" Since it is Christ Who saved me, and since He put His Holy Spirit in me, I no longer want to sin. Surely my flesh does--but the Holy Spirit overrules (see Romans 7 and 8).

I am by no means a five-point Calvinist, but I do believe in the Perseverance of the Saints. It is not ME that keeps me saved, but Christ. What a relief! And who could possibly snatch me out of His hand?

I know I'm not likely to convince anyone, because all these arguments have been put forth before. Blessedly, it is not a critical issue. The salvation of OSAS or NOSAS folks is not in jeopardy because of either belief.

But it seems to me NOSAS folks, having perhaps in their own eyes to work to please God, must experience less joy. How could you ever know if you are doing enough to stay saved?

Well--folks switch camps every day--but I know the saved, whether OSAS or NOSAS, will see each other in Heaven. Thank God.

RabbiKnife
Jul 31st 2008, 03:57 PM
1. I would love to see where Billy Graham has "Become a Univeralist"!

That's rich...

2. Once saved a person cannot "Lose" one's salvation. Once can, however, intentionally reject it, never to be afforded restoration to a saved state again.

Bro Ricky Draper
Aug 17th 2015, 08:31 PM
I admit, I had never heard of NOSAS as an acronym. My question would be how would one get re-saved? To paraphrase Paul, "Would Christ have to die again?" Salvation is an amazing gift from God that none of us deserve. It is so simple that a child can believe it, but so complicated that a Theologian cannot explain it. As far as eternal security, I think Jesus said it best when He stated that I could not be plucked from the Father's hand.
A loving father offers his children security. If my children had to qualify for my love and be good enough to keep it, no one would call me a loving father. God is a loving Father who offers eternal security. This is not a license to sin, "God forbid" Paul writes. Because, "whom the Lord loveth, He chasteneth." Every verse claiming someone lost their salvation in this thread is either about fellowship broken, or punishment form God. But God does not revoke my adoption when I mess up. I John 1:6-10 is clear that "we" (Christians) are still sinners, but still Christians.
Bro Ricky Draper

Gadgeteer
Aug 19th 2015, 05:38 PM
I have searched the Scripture and looked from both sides. My question is this: "Is eternal security biblical?" Like I said, I have searched Scripture. I have a some thoughts of my own. I just want so other oppinions on this matter. Thanks in advance for your responses.

There can't be two sides, "Broken". Is Scripture so vague that two people can read the same text, and simply walk away with opposite understandings?


"Well, you have YOUR interpretation, and I have mine; we'll just agree to disagree and walk away."

Really? Is Scripture inspired by God ("God-breathed", 2Tim3:15), or not?

Is God NOT the "author of confusion", or is He? (1Cor14:33)

Why did the writers bother to write it? Did they want to teach us clear things, or was it all a joke because "each person will have his or her OWN interpretation and you can interpret the Bible to mean anything you want"...?



I'd like to discuss only one verse:

"I worry, that as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should also be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ." 2Cor11:3

What is Paul trying to convey? Are we at the same risk of deception away from Jesus, as Eve was away from God in the Garden? Or are we not at the same risk? Or is there an "astray-from-devotion-to-Christ" that is STILL SAVED?

What did Paul mean?

Gadgeteer
Aug 19th 2015, 05:45 PM
"Is eternal security biblical?"
Yes its biblical. Let the games begin.

No games; and while "security is biblical" (God promises that He will never leave nor forsake us, that His gifts and calling are irrevocable), the question is really --- "can a truly saved person ever become unsaved?"

Scripture asserts over, and over, and over --- emphatically "YES!"



There are three separate and distinct views of "salvation-cannot-be-forfeited"; there is Antinomianism, the thought that we can be sinningly SAVED (actively fornicating, adulterating, robbing lying drunk murdering in our FLESH but saved in our SPIRITS)...

There is "Eternal Security", the view that everyone can be saved --- but once "in" either a person is too changed TO fall, or God dynamically interferes to KEEP us saved (sometimes ending a person's life that his spirit enters Heaven!)....

Then there is "Sovereign Predestined Salvation" (Calvinism, Reformed Theology, and a dozen other names) --- the view that God CREATES some to be loved and saved, and He creates the rest to be hated and to be sinful and to perish, and there's not a thing anyone can do about what God has predestined.


All three views are wrong...

Bro Ricky Draper
Aug 20th 2015, 02:42 AM
About - 2Cor11:3

So if Eve lost her salvation, when was she re-redeemed? Or is she in hell now? And my KJV reads "minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." Paul's focus in this chapter is avoiding the deception of false teachers. God wants us to be true to Him so that our lives glorify Him and draw others to this glorious Gospel.

The short answer on eternal security is this for me: "God did the saving, not me (Eph. 2:8-9); therefore I cannot do the loosing either."

TheDivineWatermark
Aug 20th 2015, 02:58 AM
About - 2Cor11:3

[...]
And my KJV reads "minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." Paul's focus in this chapter is avoiding the deception of false teachers. God wants us to be true to Him so that our lives glorify Him and draw others to this glorious Gospel.

Agreed... :thumbsup:

Gadgeteer
Aug 20th 2015, 07:10 AM
About - 2Cor11:3

So if Eve lost her salvation, when was she re-redeemed? Or is she in hell now?The point is not how Eve was re-redeemed --- but rather, how WE can fall, the same as Eve did. What does "fall" mean, in 1Cor10:12? (Hint --- "don't be evil or covetous" is the context!)

Question --- can one be "undevoted to Christ", but still saved?


And my KJV reads "minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." Paul's focus in this chapter is avoiding the deception of false teachers. God wants us to be true to Him so that our lives glorify Him and draw others to this glorious Gospel.But "don't worry if we are NOT true to God 'cause we'll still be SAVED and waltz through Heaven's gates." Right?

That is "Antinomianism", violates 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, all of 1Jn (especially 3:5-10), all of Hebrews (especially 10:26-29), and a whole lot of other verses.


The short answer on eternal security is this for me: "God did the saving, not me (Eph. 2:8-9); therefore I cannot do the loosing either."

Who does the saving in 1Tim4:16? As we abide in Jesus and His teachings, we SAVE OURSELVES --- don't we? Jude says "build YOURSELVES in holy faith, keep YOURSELVES in His love".

Though there is only one Savior, WE decide to be saved, or not. Salvation can be by persuasion, John10:38, Acts26:28-29 (and 2:37), Acts17:30-31, John20:31! We can AFFECT who gets saved, positively (Jude23), and negatively (Rom14:15 and 1Cor8:11). All of Galatians warns to "stay saved", so does all of Hebrews, all of James, and all of 2Pet. Please see the whole thread on Hebrews (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/250165-OSAS-and-the-entire-letter-of-Hebrews) we did, which also discusses Galatians, 2Peter, and James. "Don't harden your hearts (by deceitful sin) to falling away from GOD!"

(That was a LINK to the Hebrews thread above; everyone is invited to read the verses, rather than ignoring them and pretending they don't warn against falling...)

Faith is our choice, from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith (Rom1:17!). We decide how we begin, and we decide how we end. See 2Tim1:12-14 --- we guard eternal life, by the Spirit's power!

Bro Ricky Draper
Aug 21st 2015, 03:08 AM
So you are saying that based on your Anti-Antinomianism verses that when I sin I loose my salvation? The way I interpret the passages you listed would be as follows: I Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21, and I John 3:5-10 (which must agree with I John 1:8-10) all refer to a lifestyle of sin, or habitual sinning if you will. ( Interestingly 2 of those passages are followed by, "and such were some of you.") Hebrews 10:26-29 disputes your "waltz through heaven" comment, but does not say "doomed to hell". It warns of vengeance and judgement. Hebrews 12:6-8 (KJV) 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Hebrews teaches the chastening, not aborting, of God's children.
And yes, God does the saving! Romans 10:13 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved., Titus 3:5, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 6:23. We must choose to call, but God then saves us.
ILLS - A drowning man calls to the lifeguard for help and the lifeguard bring him to shore, does CPR, and the man lives. Did the man save himself because he called out for help? no. The lifeguard did the saving.
I have eternal life. I have been sealed until the day of redemption. I have a home prepared for me.
I am not ignoring your verses. This is how this Baptist, after study, believes these verses are interpreted.
This is how I see it, but we will probably never change each others minds.

Gadgeteer
Aug 21st 2015, 05:09 AM
So you are saying that based on your Anti-Antinomianism verses that when I sin I loose my salvation?Hi, Ricky!

Let's see how much agreement we have. What is salvation?
I perceive it is a UNION with Jesus; Jn17:3, 1Jn5:11-13, 1Jn1:3.

It is an indwelt fellowship of love. Jesus actually INDWELLS the believer.

Agree so far?

1Jn3:5 says "in Him there is no sin"; yet, we (the saved!) do still stumble and sin, 1Jn1:8. If salvation is Jesus and the Spirit indwelling the believer, where are they when that believer, sins? Do Jesus or the Spirit participate when we sin?

Please consider 1Cor10:12-13 (really, the whole context of 1-13). When he says "take heed lest you FALL", what does "FALL" mean, in Paul's teaching? Perhaps we could include Heb3:6-14, especially the words "Encourage one another lest anyone be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God". Is there a second meaning possible for those specific words?


The way I interpret the passages you listed would be as follows: I Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21, and I John 3:5-10 (which must agree with I John 1:8-10) all refer to a lifestyle of sin, or habitual sinning if you will.That is EXACTLY right. AND (you were expecting me to say "but"!) --- in 1Cor10:12-13 and Heb3:12-13 and elsewhere, when we SIN, we immediately have the exact same choice before us again. We can sin again, or we can repent in shame and remorse and throw ourselves at His feet begging both forgiveness and the strength not to sin again.

So we see it's not a SIN that endangers us, but "the again". Make sense?


( Interestingly 2 of those passages are followed by, "and such were some of you.") Hebrews 10:26-29 disputes your "waltz through heaven" comment, but does not say "doomed to hell". It warns of vengeance and judgment.Come on --- "fury of fire which CONSUMES the adversaries". Read the context --- the man in verse 29 who WAS SANCTIFIED by Jesus' blood, but now he SCORNS that very blood and insults the Spirit who once indwelt him, and tramples Jesus who once saved him, is the CONSEQUENCE of not heeding the warning of verse 26. He is US if we're not careful.

Now read verses 15 (do not fall short of God's grace because of bitterness), and verse 25 ("much less shall WE escape who turn away from GOD!").

:eek:


Hebrews 12:6-8 (KJV) 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Hebrews teaches the chastening, not aborting, of God's children.I like the King James on this, it correctly depicts the CONDITIONAL in verse 7. But please read it carefully, not ignoring verse 9:


7. IF we SUBMIT to His discipline, THEN He treats us AS sons.
8. We HAVE BECOME partners* in His discipline (past tense!)
8. But if we ARE NOW WITHOUT His discipline (present tense!)
8. Then we ARE NOW not children (no longer!) but are (have become!) illegitimate.
9. We submitted to earthly fathers; shall we not therefore CONTINUE to submit to God, AND LIVE?

* Metochos partakers/partners is SAVED in 6:4 (partners in the Spirit), saved in 3:1 (partners in a heavenly calling) and saved in 3:14 (partners in Christ IF we HOLD FAST). It is saved in 12:8, if we CONTINUE to submit to Him.

That passage is perhaps the clearest teaching of "CEASING-TO-BE-BORN-AGAIN" there is.


And yes, God does the saving! Romans 10:13 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved., Titus 3:5, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 6:23. We must choose to call, but God then saves us.That is EXACTLY RIGHT again --- well said. Now think about what you just said! We MUST CALL on Him and THEN we are saved; and if we CEASE to call on Him, where are we?

Jude21 "KEEP YOURSELVES in His love", which cries to be connected to 1Jn4:16 "he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in Him". And to 1Tim4:16, "take care of yourself and your teaching; ABIDE IN these things; as you do YOU WILL SAVE YOURSELVES..."


ILLS - A drowning man calls to the lifeguard for help and the lifeguard bring him to shore, does CPR, and the man lives. Did the man save himself because he called out for help? no. The lifeguard did the saving.What if the man does not call for help?


I have eternal life. I have been sealed until the day of redemption. I have a home prepared for me.IF you CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from (Jesus) the hope of the gospel. Col1:21-23.


I am not ignoring your verses. This is how this Baptist, after study, believes these verses are interpreted.
This is how I see it, but we will probably never change each others minds.

You and I are not arguing against each other; we are struggling TOGETHER to understand what they WROTE. You say, "I have eternal life" --- embodying 1Jn5:11-13, he who has Jesus has eternal life (and he who does not have Jesus does not have the life).

Now --- see if you can deny the connection between 1Jn5:11-13, and 2Jn1:7-9. "WATCH YOURSELVES (against deceivers!) that you not lose what was wrought, but that you may receive full reward. (Because) anyone who GOES TOO FAR and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, has not God --- he who abides, has the Father and the Son."

There it is --- some of us can GO TOO FAR (or, "go-out-from-us" in answer to 1Jn2:19), and no LONGER have Jesus. If we ABIDE in the teachings, then we CONTINUE to have Jesus and the Father.

Do you think any of that is "bad interpretation", and not clearly what John meant? Before you answer, please go back to 1Jn2, start with verse 19 (anyone who goes out from us is not with us), and read through verses 26-28 (therefore against deceivers ABIDE IN Christ, SO THAT we [you] not shrink-in-shame [because of sin! Heb10:26-29!] at His return).

What do you think I am missing in these verses, or wrongly interpreting? I see perfect harmony, they're all saying the same thing. Do you still disagree?

Gadgeteer
Aug 21st 2015, 02:07 PM
1Jn2:19 (anyone who goes out from us is not with us), and read through verses 26-28 (therefore against deceivers ABIDE IN Christ, SO THAT we [you] not shrink-in-shame [because of sin! Heb10:26-29!] at His return).


1Jn2:19 is almost always taken by OSAS advocates, as --- "Those who go out from us, were NEVER OF us; they were lurking AMONGST us but never belonged/believed/were-saved."

And it simply does not say that. They were not of us WHEN they went out --- the wording fully supports the possibility of their having "been of us", last YEAR, last WEEK, or even YESTERDAY. They were "not-of-us", WHEN they went out.

2Jn1:7-9, "goes-too-far", is absolutely "going-out-from-us". True believers, can become deceived by sin to an unbelieving heart (every sin is "turning-away-from-God", if one ceases to repent but begins to sin continually, by definition he has turned away from Jesus and is an UNBELIEVER).

If John had meant "only those who WERE NEVER saved can go-out-from-us" in 1:2:19, that absolutely does not fit verses 26-28. Over and over we're warned to "guard against deceivers", who CAN turn us away from Jesus. Here again we are to watch ourselves against deceivers, warned to ABIDE in Jesus SO THAT we not shrink in shame at his returning.

"Shrink-in-shame" is presented as fully possible, and it is not consistent with "still-saved". Those who belong to Jesus and do not walk in unrighteousness, have no reason to "shrink-in-shame". One has shame, only because of unforgiven sin.

2Pet2 is a clear example of truly-saved-people, who get turned back to unsalvation. King James in verse 18 uses "ontos-apopheugo" TRULY escaped, New American Standard uses "oligos-apopheugo" BARELY escaped; but they were escaped defilements, something the unsaved just cannot do without Jesus.

If after having ESCAPED the defilements of the world through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE (epignosis!) of the LORD and SAVIOR Jesus --- note well every word of that is echoed in chapter 1, verses 1-4 (except "defilements" is "corruptions" in ch1), referring to the SAVED. Can any unsaved person ever escape defilements/corruptions through the epignosis-true-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus? No way.

The false never-escaped teachers entice the truly-escaped back INTO defilements; if after having escaped they are again entangled in defilements and overcome, it is WORSE than BEFORE they escaped. Better to have never KNOWN (epiginosko, a variant of epignosis --- true saved knowledge!), than HAVING known to have TURNED AWAY FROM (epistrepho is real spiritual turning!) the holy commandment.

The dog returns to its vomit, the sow is washed only to wallow again in the mire. It is argued that "they never STOPPED being dogs and pigs" --- oh yes they did, A dog never turns from vomit, and a pig never turns from mire; people are "dogs" and "pigs" by virtue of the vomit and mire in which they dwell --- when they TURN from it, they cease being dogs and pigs.

[b]No one can "escape defilements" outside of salvation in Jesus Christ; if they could, His sacrifice would not have been necessary!

So Peter warns in chapter 1 to be diligent to make our salvation (calling and election) bebaios-steadfast.

In chapter 2, warns against those who become deceived by false teachers back INTO defilements, away from true-saved-knowledge of Jesus Christ.

In chapter 3, verse 14 "be diligent to be found by Jesus spotless and blameless" (the exact same thing as 1Jn2:19-28!), verse 17 warning us not to be deceived by godless men to falling from our own steadfastness.

One cannot be "unsteadfastly saved"! What is Peter teaching? Could it be anything OTHER, than "don't become unsaved"?