PDA

View Full Version : Is it possible...



Gulah Papyrus
Jul 28th 2008, 04:09 AM
...for a human being, saved or unsaved, 'lukewarm' or 'on fire', to NOT sin?

...or, on the day that Paul died, did he sin?

dworthington
Jul 28th 2008, 12:59 PM
Paul said "it is no longer I that sin, but sin that dwelleth in me".

ProjectPeter
Jul 28th 2008, 01:28 PM
Have you ever had a choice to sin or not to sin and you chose not to sin?

mikebr
Jul 28th 2008, 01:35 PM
...for a human being, saved or unsaved, 'lukewarm' or 'on fire', to NOT sin?

...or, on the day that Paul died, did he sin?


Might be a good idea to define sin.

Redeemed by Grace
Jul 28th 2008, 01:47 PM
Paul wrote this to the Roman church:

Romans 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?


Now remember when he wrote this.... many years after his encounter with Christ and certainly after many missionary journeys and letters to the churches of the region... the deeper his walk, the more sin he saw in himself....


Salvation is a battle, a struggle to do 100% of God's law in obedience, yet we cannot do it at 100%, for if we miss just one point, it nullifies the whole. Ahhh but by His grace through faith, we are Spiritually at 100%... yet our members still humanly fail.

Romans 7:23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.


Praise God for His Son, our Savior....:pp


My 10 minutes are up... gotta get back to the job at hand...

For His glory...

BadDog
Jul 28th 2008, 01:53 PM
...for a human being, saved or unsaved, 'lukewarm' or 'on fire', to NOT sin?

...or, on the day that Paul died, did he sin?Good question.

IMO - no. As long as we are wrapped up in this body of death. Of course, one could continue to shorten the time... Is it possible to go a second without sinning.

Well, the issue that comes up is the state we are in, and let me hastily add that I do think we can live in such a manner as is pleasing to God.

But sinless? No.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say, "We have not sinned," we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

FWIW,

BD

faithfulfriend
Jul 28th 2008, 01:56 PM
...for a human being, saved or unsaved, 'lukewarm' or 'on fire', to NOT sin?

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

mikebr
Jul 28th 2008, 01:58 PM
A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.
Theology.

Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.
A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.

Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.

intr.v., sinned, sin·ning, sins.

To violate a religious or moral law.
To commit an offense or violation.

BadDog
Jul 28th 2008, 06:45 PM
Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.So, is this saying then that it is possible for you to become God? Does that mean that I can fly to the moon? :P I'm saying this tongue-in-cheek. The point is just what does it mean that "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me"? If we cannot stop sinning completely in this present body, then we must wait until we receive our resurrected body before we experience complete victory.

BD

faithfulfriend
Jul 28th 2008, 07:04 PM
So, is this saying then that it is possible for you to become God?

When did I ever say that? Nobody can become God.

Isa 43:10 ....before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.


Does that mean that I can fly to the moon? :P I'm saying this tongue-in-cheek. The point is just what does it mean that "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me"? If we cannot stop sinning completely in this present body, then we must wait until we receive our resurrected body before we experience complete victory.

BDPhillipians 4:13 goes right along with these two passages:

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Committing sin is a personal choice, just as Adam & Eve CHOSE to sin against Almighty God. Nobody forces you to commit sin, if you do commit sin, it's because you allowed the Devil to take advantage of you during temptation, and the giving in to that temptation thus produces sin.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

God doesn't tempt, the Devil does. It's up to you and me to resist the Devil and resist temptation. With the help of God and the Holy Spirit, we can resist every temptation that comes our way.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

BadDog
Jul 28th 2008, 07:20 PM
faithfulfriend,

(Like in my dog?) :P I think there's some real misunderstanding going on here.

Please go back and read my last post carefully. I was simply trying to show that "I can do all things..." doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means. For example, you (and I ) cannot become God... we cannot fly to the moon. ...we did not become invulnerable, like Superman, when we were saved.

We will not be able to stop sinning completely until God gives us our new, resurrected bodies. Don't know about you, but I'm still wearing my old one... it's becoming dilipidated - losing my hair, gaining weight... :P

Thx,

BD

faithfulfriend
Jul 28th 2008, 07:31 PM
We will not be able to stop sinning completely until God gives us our new, resurrected bodies. Don't know about you, but I'm still wearing my old one... it's becoming dilipidated - losing my hair, gaining weight... :P

Thx,

BD

Then what does Philippians 4:13 mean?

Also, you say we can't stop sinning? What about these scriptures?

Ex 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Ro 6:1-2 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ro 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Ro 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Ro 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Ro 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

1Co 6:9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous (sinners) shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

2Ti 2:19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity (sin).

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

1Jo 2:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth (sins), and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Ron Brown
Jul 28th 2008, 08:01 PM
...for a human being, saved or unsaved, 'lukewarm' or 'on fire', to NOT sin?

...or, on the day that Paul died, did he sin?

What was the lukewarm church? Christ said it was the Laodiceans in Rev 3:14.

Why were they lukewarm? This is why Christ said they were lukewarm.

Rev 3:16 Christ says "So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth. Because you say 'I AM RICH, HAVE BECOME WEALTHY, AND HAVE NEED OF NOTHING------and do not know that you are WRETCHED, MISERABLE, POOR, BLIND, AND NAKED."

Sound familiar to you?

Looks just like the church in the USA today. All about storing up treasures on Earth, instead of storing up treasures in Heaven.

mikebr
Jul 28th 2008, 08:03 PM
Then what does Philippians 4:13 mean?

Also, you say we can't stop sinning? What about these scriptures?

Ex 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Ro 6:1-2 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ro 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Ro 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Ro 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Ro 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

1Co 6:9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous (sinners) shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

2Ti 2:19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity (sin).

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

1Jo 2:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth (sins), and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.


1. Are you sinless?

2. If so, In what sense?

3. If not, why not?

BadDog
Jul 28th 2008, 10:40 PM
faithfulfriend,

I'm afraid this would take more time than I have right now, unfortunately. Obviously, there are things which Christians cannot do. Can you fly to the moon w/o a spacesuit? Do you think God wants you to, and is disappointed if you cannot, or if bullets don't bounce off your chest?

Stephen and Paul were stoned... did they mess up that those stones didn't bounce off harmlessly?

In 2 Tim. 3:12 we read that indeed all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. Often the manner in which we deal with such difficulties, such as dying of cancer, is more of a testimony and can be used more effectively by God than to be healed.

I am not saying that we do not have power for living victoriously. I am saying that victorious living does not mean sinless living.

I once led a study here on 1st John. I'll try to find a link there if you're interested.

Here it is, it's archived:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=21184
(Study #9 - Dealing with Sin - an Overview in 1st John 1)

Look for the concept of "walking in the light." It is not possible to live sinlessly due to this body we live in...

Romans 7:18-25 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it. 19 For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me. 21 So I discover this principle: when I want to do good, evil is with me. 22 For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God's law. 23 But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.

IMO the 1st step to victorious living is to recognize that we can do absolutely nothing without Christ, but that we can do all things through Him. God knows our struggles, and helps us through them. But complete victory? We'll become discouraged until we recognize that what we need is "walking in the light - in victory."

Take care,

BD

faithfulfriend
Jul 29th 2008, 02:43 AM
1. Are you sinless?

Have you considered the numerous scriptures I presented? What do they teach?

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Before getting saved I used to be the common sinner, sin more or less everyday, sometimes feeling bad for my sins, sometimes not. But when I came to the place in my life where I was truly sorry for all my sins, I asked for forgiveness with a truly contrite heart, and he was merciful and faithful to cleanse me from all sin and to forgive me.

Pr 28:13 ¶ He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Not only must sin be confessed, but they must be forsaken, completely. ALL sin, not just a few, but all. Forsake means to give up, to abandon altogether, renounce, to give up without returning to claim again.

After repentence, you are then justified in the sight of Almighty God. You are forgiven of your sins and they have all been washed away.

Christ's perfect sacrifice was needed in order for man to be completely forgiven of all sin, and for him to be able to live righteously, godly, holy, and sinless in this life.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

The whole reason Christ came was to save his people from their sins, not leave them in sin.

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Being cleansed from all sin means ALL sin. Christ's blood doesn't leave any sin left in your life once he fully cleanses you (through Sanctification).


2. If so, In what sense?

God demands perfection. Spiritual moral perfection.

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Perfect in this scripture means "complete in moral character".

1Pe 5:10 ¶ But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

That they man of God may be PERFECT. The Bible is very clear concerning spiritual perfection. (I have more notes on this if you would like to see :hmm:)

faithfulfriend
Jul 29th 2008, 02:49 AM
Romans 7:18-25 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it. 19 For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me. 21 So I discover this principle: when I want to do good, evil is with me. 22 For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God's law. 23 But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.



If your interested I could show you a comparison of Romans 6 in 8 in accordance to Romans 7 which is the passage above. There is victory over sin completely for everone who wants it. Don't stop at Romans 7, keep reading! Romans 6 and 8 gives wonderful testimony to Paul having absolute victory over sin.

I trust the little attachment will help you.....

Firefighter
Jul 29th 2008, 11:45 AM
God demands perfection. Spiritual moral perfection.

Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Perfect in this scripture means "complete in moral character".

1Pe 5:10 ¶ But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

That they man of God may be PERFECT. The Bible is very clear concerning spiritual perfection. (I have more notes on this if you would like to see :hmm:)

I wish people could just answer a cotton-picking question around here...:B

Are you without sin? Have you reached a point of sinless perfection?

PLEASE look at the Greek before you rattle on about the saints being perfect. The word means "complete" or "not lacking" not perfect (without impurities) like we think of it today.

faithfulfriend
Jul 29th 2008, 12:09 PM
I wish people could just answer a cotton-picking question around here...:B

Are you without sin? Have you reached a point of sinless perfection?

PLEASE look at the Greek before you rattle on about the saints being perfect. The word means "complete" or "not lacking" not perfect (without impurities) like we think of it today.

Short answer: Yes. Thank God!

Since God saved me, he has given me grace to walk in the light, to walk righteously, and to walk without sin. Are there temptations? Absolutely, almost everyday it seems sometimes. But His Word promised His grace would be sufficient for me. And he promised that I would be able to bear every temptation, not just a few of them.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Falling in the Greek here means sin. If God's Word says he can keep me from falling, guess what? He means what he says. It's a promise in His Word that I hang on to.

I must end this post with a clarification. Most people just accuse me of being self-righteous, and I want to put out that fire before somebody else starts it. That is not true at all. I usually get somebody who posts the story about the publican and the sinner, which if that happens it can be explained in it's proper context once again if need be....God's Word says I am nothing without him: Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.It is not in my own strength that I live free from sin, it is through Christ's strength.

1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

It is God who gets the honor, glory, praise, etc. I've done nothing to deserve his love, faithfulness, and mercy.

Most people who find out that I don't sin usually assume I'm either a liar, lunatic, or whatever else. If you don't believe it to be possible to not sin, I would strongly suggest you study God's Word and the scriptures I presented earlier. PM me with questions if you like, I want to be of a help if I can.

ProjectPeter
Jul 29th 2008, 12:57 PM
I wish people could just answer a cotton-picking question around here...:B

Are you without sin? Have you reached a point of sinless perfection?

PLEASE look at the Greek before you rattle on about the saints being perfect. The word means "complete" or "not lacking" not perfect (without impurities) like we think of it today.
Okay.... he is making his point and not "rattling on." You are making your point. In other words... chill pill time. ;)

ProjectPeter
Jul 29th 2008, 01:00 PM
Short answer: Yes. Thank God!

Since God saved me, he has given me grace to walk in the light, to walk righteously, and to walk without sin. Are there temptations? Absolutely, almost everyday it seems sometimes. But His Word promised His grace would be sufficient for me. And he promised that I would be able to bear every temptation, not just a few of them.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Falling in the Greek here means sin. If God's Word says he can keep me from falling, guess what? He means what he says. It's a promise in His Word that I hang on to.

I must end this post with a clarification. Most people just accuse me of being self-righteous, and I want to put out that fire before somebody else starts it. That is not true at all. I usually get somebody who posts the story about the publican and the sinner, which if that happens it can be explained in it's proper context once again if need be....God's Word says I am nothing without him: Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.It is not in my own strength that I live free from sin, it is through Christ's strength.

1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

It is God who gets the honor, glory, praise, etc. I've done nothing to deserve his love, faithfulness, and mercy.

Most people who find out that I don't sin usually assume I'm either a liar, lunatic, or whatever else. If you don't believe it to be possible to not sin, I would strongly suggest you study God's Word and the scriptures I presented earlier. PM me with questions if you like, I want to be of a help if I can.
Let's dig a bit for a little more clarification! :)

I assume, since you believe one can fall, that you know there is always that possibility if ever you begin walking in the flesh and not the Spirit? But if you do sin you have an advocate with the Father. Fix it and begin that walk in the Spirit again.

faithfulfriend
Jul 29th 2008, 01:05 PM
Let's dig a bit for a little more clarification! :)

I assume, since you believe one can fall, that you know there is always that possibility if ever you begin walking in the flesh and not the Spirit? But if you do sin you have an advocate with the Father. Fix it and begin that walk in the Spirit again.

Absolutely. Thanks for asking the question, I don't want any confusion.

1Jo 2:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

God is very rich in mercy and forgiving, but at the same time we are not to use His mercy to our advantage. It is God's plan for man that once he obtains Full Salvation, he continues to go forward and never looks back to sin again, never commits sin again, and continues to grow in grace.

Lu 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Once you start with God (getting saved), it has to be a solid determination that you'll never go back to what you were/used to be with the help of God. It's not God's plan for man to sin, repent, sin, repent, sin, repent, sin, repent. Repentance should never be taken lightly, it is a very serious matter. It is God's plan for man to repent, and live holy, righteous, sinless from that moment on until the day they either die or Christ returns.

Trust that makes sense.....

RJ Mac
Jul 29th 2008, 02:05 PM
Yes Paul did sin on the day he died, 1Jn.1:8; we all do everyday.
But we have been cleansed of all sin by the blood of Christ. Unless we go
back to wallowing in the mud, and there no longer remains a sacrifice to
cleanse us, since we turned our backs upon it, Heb.6:6;
Gal.5:4; ... you have fallen from grace.

But as long as we walk in the light and fellowship with one another, the
blood of Christ continues to cleanse us of all sin. 1Jn.1:7;

When Jesus returns, Christians are not judged on the basis of sin, Heb.9:28
...He will appear a 2nd time without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

1Cor.15:55,56 the sting of death is sin...but thanks be to God, who gives us
the victory through the Lord Jesus Christ.

What Christians are judged on is did we have faith and continue to study
and strengthen it? Did we have hope and put our talents to work for God or
for selfish gains? Did we have love and reach out to others or just to friends
and family?

Too many worry about what not to do and looking out for the sin in our lives
than striving to think about what to do, to help our fellowman. Freed from sin
to now focus on righteousness. Paul didn't worry about sin, he worried about
our salvation. Php.1:24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for
your sake.

RJ

ProjectPeter
Jul 29th 2008, 02:23 PM
Yes Paul did sin on the day he died, 1Jn.1:8; we all do everyday.
But we have been cleansed of all sin by the blood of Christ. Unless we go
back to wallowing in the mud, and there no longer remains a sacrifice to
cleanse us, since we turned our backs upon it, Heb.6:6;
Gal.5:4; ... you have fallen from grace.

But as long as we walk in the light and fellowship with one another, the
blood of Christ continues to cleanse us of all sin. 1Jn.1:7;

When Jesus returns, Christians are not judged on the basis of sin, Heb.9:28
...He will appear a 2nd time without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

1Cor.15:55,56 the sting of death is sin...but thanks be to God, who gives us
the victory through the Lord Jesus Christ.

What Christians are judged on is did we have faith and continue to study
and strengthen it? Did we have hope and put our talents to work for God or
for selfish gains? Did we have love and reach out to others or just to friends
and family?

Too many worry about what not to do and looking out for the sin in our lives
than striving to think about what to do, to help our fellowman. Freed from sin
to now focus on righteousness. Paul didn't worry about sin, he worried about
our salvation. Php.1:24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for
your sake.

RJTell me please where that 1 John reference says that Paul sinned on the day that he died? Yeah... I know it doesn't. But you say the point is... but then what really is the point of that passage? Do you think John is saying we all sin every day even till our death?

BadDog
Jul 29th 2008, 06:02 PM
If your interested I could show you a comparison of Romans 6 in 8 in accordance to Romans 7 which is the passage above. There is victory over sin completely for everone who wants it. Don't stop at Romans 7, keep reading! Romans 6 and 8 gives wonderful testimony to Paul having absolute victory over sin.

I trust the little attachment will help you.....
Thx ff for the article, though I have to say that I got a virus from that doc. (My virus s/w is handling it.)

faithful friend, sorry, but I tend to get lengthy in my responses. If you're going to respond to this post, if you feel that you need to, then please read it all through carefully. My intent is not to show how I'm right and you're wrong. I'm not trying to debate anyone. I just want to clarify my position. I think you may be misunderstanding some of what I have been saying.

I still see nothing in that article (those chapters from Romans 6-8) that says that we can live sinlessly. The words are simply not there. Now, did you read in that thread on 1 John that I linked? I addressed this there.

As we all strive to live a godly and holy life in Christ and to experience the power of the Holy Spirit in a practical manner daily, it is easy to go to one extreme or another. One of those extremes is to say that it doesn't matter how we live or perhaps to focus on perfunctory actions rather than the Holy Spirit... to focus on rigorous habits and regulations which Paul says in Colossians 2 have no real power to liberate us from sin...

Colossians 2:20-23 If you died with Christ to the elemental forces of this world, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations: "Don't handle, don't taste, don't touch"? All these regulations refer to what is destroyed by being used up; they are human commands and doctrines. Although these have a reputation of wisdom by promoting ascetic practices, humility, and severe treatment of the body, they are not of any value against fleshly indulgence.


The other extreme is the concept that it is possible to attain sinless perfection in this life. Let's look at that a bit...

Let me start by saying that the standard for Christian living is Christ Himself and it is spelled out for us in the Bible, God's holy Word. I am not advocating lowering our standards or expectations. There can be no compromise on the ideal and no lowering of those standards we see clearly revealed in scripture. Sexual sin is still sexual sin even if you struggle for victory there. We don't lower the bar. We raise our eyes to a higher standard for living.

However, that said, as we consider just what man is, it should be obvious that it is simply impossible for man, any man except Christ Himself, to continuously live at such perfection. We cannot live in a state of complete freedom from sin in this earthly life while we live in these (as I quoted Paul earlier) "bodies of death." Yes, that's from Romans 7. But Paul did not step out of his body of death in chapter 8, and neither can you nor I.

I am saying that "yes" it is possible for a human being to avoid willful sin, at least for a short time, or to have victory over some known sin or habit. But the sin nature itself simply can never be completely eradicated. The "blessed hope" is the receiving of new resurrected bodies. Once that occurs, we will be able to live sinlessly.

I think part of this confusion among Christians is due to a misunderstanding of some Greek (NT) and Hebrew (OT) words which are sometimes translated as "perfect." My point is simply that "perfection" is not considered to be sinless perfection by the use of those words.

In general, the idea of "perfection" is that of being complete or mature, as well as that of "perfection" in some contexts. For example, in the NT the related words often translated as "perfect" (noun) or "perfected" (verb) are...

τελειόω (TELEIOŌ) - "To complete, to finish, to bring to maturity, to make perfect"

τελειός (TELEIOS) - "Complete, finished, mature, perfect."

When Jesus said that "it is finished" when He was on the cross He used the verb above (perfect tense - indicating an act at a point-in-time in the past with a state of having been completed continuing into the present).

I personally like Hebrews 10:14 (exc. in the NIV) as it describes the work of Christ and our sanctification:

Hebrews 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has perfected (τετελείωκεν) for all time those who are being sanctified.

The idea here is that by one sacrifice Jesus has completed dealing with our sin for all time. But we are "being made holy" or "set apart" for the purpose of glorifying Him by our good works.

The same word (the noun) is used in Philippians 3, and we see it used there with the idea of maturity, as many Bibles translate it:

Philippians 3:13-15 Brothers, I do not consider myself to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: forgetting what is behind and reaching forward to what is ahead, I pursue as my goal the prize promised by God's heavenly call in Christ Jesus.

Therefore, all who are mature (τέλειοι - TELEIOI) should think this way. And if you think differently about anything, God will reveal this to you also.

Paul is not talking about sinless perfection here, but about spiritual maturity. Similarly, elders are required to be "above reproach" and "blameless." Neither of these words indicate perfection either. In an earlier post I listed a couple of verses where John tells us in his first letter that if we say that we are living in sinless perfection that we are deceiving ourselves and are liars:

1 John 1:8 If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we say, "We have not sinned," we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

So then, I do not know you, but I do not need to know you to know that you are not living in sinless perfection. Not even for a short time. If you think that you are, John says that you are deceiving yourself. To think that it is possible for us to live sinlessly will only discourage ourselves. It will lead to putting on a mask, a facade, pretending before others that everything is great, when we KNOW inside that it's a lie. Ugh. What a horrible way to live.

Last summer my wife and I went with our church's youth to a summer week-long program. At one point, my eldest son said that he was walking in sweet fellowship with the Lord. The way he expressed it was that he felt like God was just putting His arms around him and hugging him. Wow! I didn't ask him if he experienced some breaks in that fellowship. The point is that we can walk closely with our Lord, even while we blow it from time to time. 1 John 1:9 tells us that if we confess (agree with Him about our sin) our sin, our fellowship with God can be immediately restored. It's almost like breathing. It IS like walking. (That's the illustration used in scripture.)

But it is not sinlessness.

Now again, just because I openly acknowledge that I cannot live in sinless perfection, and just because I openly admit that I blow it - sometimes big-time, does not mean that I do not have a responsibility to try to measure up to the standard Christ has given us. It does free me up to be honest with myself and others.

We are told to not be proud, for example. But I do blow it there sometimes. Doesn't mean that I should just give up because it's so difficult in this flesh to live in constant humility focused upon others, as in Philippians 2:3, 4. I can live victoriously, and as soon as I fall, I need to get back up, tell God that I blew it (confession) and thank Him for His forgiveness and restoring me to fellowship with Him. He knows that I am a pig, but He loves this porker anyway. Go figure. I need to appropriate the power of the Holy Spirit. I can do so. I cannot live sinlessly, due to the flesh.

Personal holiness is expressed many times in the NT with the use of the word ἁγιάζω (hAGIAZŌ). It is translated as "to make holy or to sanctify."

When we receive our hope - our resurrected bodies - our sanctification process will be complete. The NT is so clear about the fact that the spiritual-filled life is one of spiritual warfare. Nowhere in the NT is the believer exhorted to eradicate his sin nature. Instead, the exhortations of Scripture constantly take into consideration that this is impossible and that victory over sin requires yielding to God and walking by the Spirit. (I like how John expresses it in chapter one of his first letter... "walking in the light." IMO the same concept.)

There are times, like now actually, when I have said with confidence that I am walking in the Spirit. But those times tend to get broken up with selfish motives and actions. I'm best at this when I'm not around people. :P They mess everything up! And God actually expects me to love them!

Another popular little error out there is that we are to "die to our self." Actually, crucifixion is always applied by someone else. People have misread those verses, such as Romans 6 and Galatians 2:20. The perfect passive tense is used which refers to something that happened to me in the past, resulting in a state of having been crucified. The old self was crucified with Christ when He died. But I understand what people mean when they say that. They're talking about yielding my life to the leading of the Holy Spirit - to walking in the Spirit. Hey, I've said it myself - probably on this board. The idea of the verbs in those verses is actually not in the present tense but is perfect passive and they read something like, “Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with him...” in Romans 6:6. In Galatians 2:20, most translations translate it more accurately as "I have been crucified with Christ..." not "I AM crucified with Christ."

Sorry for the rabbit-trail there. But what we are commanded to do is to walk by the Spirit ("walk in the light") which results in an abundant life experience, a holy life (one separated and set apart from sin - in general, but not perfectly), and a life that glorifies God. We can thus achieve holiness as the NT intends and we can realize the fruit of the Spirit in our character. It is living separate from the world, not conformed to this world system.

It is not, cannot be, sinless living. But it is a great joy to walk with our Savior! Whew!

Take care,

BD

John146
Jul 29th 2008, 06:23 PM
Short answer: Yes. Thank God!

Since God saved me, he has given me grace to walk in the light, to walk righteously, and to walk without sin. Are there temptations? Absolutely, almost everyday it seems sometimes. But His Word promised His grace would be sufficient for me. And he promised that I would be able to bear every temptation, not just a few of them.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Falling in the Greek here means sin. If God's Word says he can keep me from falling, guess what? He means what he says. It's a promise in His Word that I hang on to.

I must end this post with a clarification. Most people just accuse me of being self-righteous, and I want to put out that fire before somebody else starts it. That is not true at all. I usually get somebody who posts the story about the publican and the sinner, which if that happens it can be explained in it's proper context once again if need be....God's Word says I am nothing without him: Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.It is not in my own strength that I live free from sin, it is through Christ's strength.

1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

It is God who gets the honor, glory, praise, etc. I've done nothing to deserve his love, faithfulness, and mercy.

Most people who find out that I don't sin usually assume I'm either a liar, lunatic, or whatever else. If you don't believe it to be possible to not sin, I would strongly suggest you study God's Word and the scriptures I presented earlier. PM me with questions if you like, I want to be of a help if I can.This is sad. You are sinning in at least three ways by saying you have reached a sinless state. One, you are lying about never sinning. I don't believe for a second that you never sin at all. The Bible nowhere says that we can reach such a state in this lifetime. You are making yourself equal with Jesus! Two, you are making God a liar by claiming to be without sin (1 John 1:10). Three, you are being prideful and that is a sin.

Who was John talking to in this passage?

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. - 1 John 1:8-10

Gulah Papyrus
Jul 29th 2008, 07:23 PM
Yes Paul did sin on the day he died, 1Jn.1:8; we all do everyday.
But we have been cleansed of all sin by the blood of Christ. Unless we go
back to wallowing in the mud, and there no longer remains a sacrifice to
cleanse us, since we turned our backs upon it, Heb.6:6;
Gal.5:4; ... you have fallen from grace.

But as long as we walk in the light and fellowship with one another, the
blood of Christ continues to cleanse us of all sin. 1Jn.1:7;

When Jesus returns, Christians are not judged on the basis of sin, Heb.9:28
...He will appear a 2nd time without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

1Cor.15:55,56 the sting of death is sin...but thanks be to God, who gives us
the victory through the Lord Jesus Christ.

What Christians are judged on is did we have faith and continue to study
and strengthen it? Did we have hope and put our talents to work for God or
for selfish gains? Did we have love and reach out to others or just to friends
and family?

Too many worry about what not to do and looking out for the sin in our lives
than striving to think about what to do, to help our fellowman. Freed from sin
to now focus on righteousness. Paul didn't worry about sin, he worried about
our salvation. Php.1:24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for
your sake.

RJ
Thanks RJ, This is kind of what I was thinking. What lead me to the OP was our 'sinful nature' and whether or not it is constant or if it comes and goes, and if being saved gives us the power to truly not sin, ever. I believe that Paul did sin on his last day as has every man(sinner) who has ever lived. From the sermon on the mount we are taught that sin isn't neccssarily an act, but even the consideration of sin is enough to condemn you. That lead me to the idea that my being human, saved or unsaved, means that my existance alone contains an element of sin, therefore no matter how sinnless my life is, I am still, in a certain respects, always sinning.:hmm:

Your thoughts?

OneOfVeracity
Jul 29th 2008, 07:38 PM
This is sad. You are sinning in at least three ways by saying you have reached a sinless state. One, you are lying about never sinning. I don't believe for a second that you never sin at all.

(This is for anyone who goes along with you --- not solely you John146)

You know what's sad? It's sad to think that you can live in sin and be acceptable in God's sight. It's sad to take a couple of scriptures out of context and build an enitire doctrine that's completely contrary to the rest of the Bible.

Hi, I'm OneOfVeracity, friend of FaithfulFriend, and I'm here to agree with what ff's saying, to say that their LIFE backs up what they say, and that I TOO live a holy, SINLESS life by the grace of God that's appeared to me and brought me my salvation. In fact, we personally know several HUNDRED people who have this same testimony (want to learn more about THAT? PM me).

It's disgusting to mix sin and the Christian life into the same category of "acceptable in God's sight." Whoever declares themselves to be unable to live sinless needs to "awake to righteousness and sin not" (I Cor 15:34).

Study the OT - how did the children of God serve Him? Out of FORM, out of DUTY. They were UNABLE to live sinless because that power had not been made available to them.

Study the prophecies - what do they point towards? Jesus, the perfect sacrifice. The one that made it possible for us to NEVER have to go back and offer the sacrifice of repentance anymore; "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of..." (II Cor 7:10) --- when you're truly sorry for your sins, you don't sin anymore. Here's what Christ accomplished --- "For by one offering he hath perfected FOREVER them that are sanctified" (Heb 10:14).

Study Christ's law - what did He teach? "Go and sin no more" (Jn 8:11) and "Sin no more lest a worse thing come upon thee" (Jn 5:14).


You are sinning in at least three ways by saying you have reached a sinless state. One, you are lying about never sinning. I don't believe for a second that you never sin at all.

That is completely your opinion and you have nothing factual to base that upon.


The Bible nowhere says that we can reach such a state in this lifetime.

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (12) Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

"...live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this PRESENT world."

I Jn 5:17 "For all unrighteousness is sin..."

Unrighteousness = sin, therefore righteousness = no sin

I Pe 1:16 "...be ye holy, for I am holy."

Quoted from God. God = holy, therefore (Titus 2:12) godly = holy.


You are making yourself equal with Jesus!

We're supposed to be like Christ...

I Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


Two, you are making God a liar by claiming to be without sin (1 John 1:10).

More on this at the end of my post...


Three, you are being prideful and that is a sin.

How is testifying that you live by the Bible and live holy, blameless, and sinless before God proud?


Who was John talking to in this passage?

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. - 1 John 1:8-10

John was talking to us, but let's discuss his whole message here.

What would "darkness" imply in verse 6? If you're walking in darkness, you're walking in sin.

And, let's make it personal --- "If (you) say (you) fellowship with (God) and you walk in (sin), (you) lie, and do not the truth.

Verse 8 - If you feel that you are righteous in and of yourself, and that you don't need God's power to (a) break the power of sin and (b) forgive you of your wrong spiritual condition, then, yes, you are deceived.

Verse 10 - If you say you have not sinned (Rom 3:23 - for all HAVE sinned...) then you're a liar because everyone HAS sinned at one point in their life.

I'm not reading where continual sin is acceptable. I'm not reading where living sinless is unnacceptable or proud.

Be careful when you're interpreting the Bible, God's Holy Word. There is ample proof in God's Word that He designed a plan for us to live sinless.

PS - I'm trying (and FaithfulFriend is trying) to help anyone who's willing to listen. There's a greater plan available to the souls of man than the weak and flimsy "sin you will/sin you must" plan. It's in the Bible that we live holy and PERFECT (spiritually). Those who disagree are not "rightly dividing the word of truth" (II Tim 2:15).

BadDog
Jul 29th 2008, 07:52 PM
John 146,

I think that faithfulfriend is trying to be genuine here. I think I should repeat (somewhat rephrased) a short portion that I posted above and try to explain to ff what I think he is saying, and the issues I see with that...


So then, I do not know you, but I do not need to know you to know that you are not living in sinless perfection. Not even for a short time. If you think that you are, John says that you are deceiving yourself. (I do not mean to imply that you are being arrogant, but that you are deceived about your state) To think that it is possible for us to live sinlessly will only discourage ourselves. It will lead to putting on a mask, a facade, pretending before others that everything is great, when we KNOW inside that it's a lie. Ugh. What a horrible way to live.

(Now obviously, based on the last couple of posts, you are striving to "walk in the light." But IMO that is not, cannot be, sinless perfection.)

Last summer my wife and I went with our church's youth to a summer week-long program. At one point, my eldest son said that he was walking in sweet fellowship with the Lord. The way he expressed it was that he felt like God was just putting His arms around him and hugging him. Wow! I didn't ask him if he experienced some breaks in that fellowship. The point is that we can walk closely with our Lord, even while we blow it from time to time. 1 John 1:9 tells us that if we confess (agree with Him about our sin) our sin, our fellowship with God can be immediately restored. It's almost like breathing. It IS like walking. (That's the illustration used in scripture.)

But it is not sinlessness.
Kendall (my son) genuinely felt very close to his Lord at that time. He said that openly to the group. Those there did not perceive him as being arrogant about it - he was just expressing how great it was to walk in such harmony with his Lord.

And we can experience such joy. We do have the means of living in such a manner as is not available to those who do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

You are apparently experiencing a close walk with our Lord. PTL! The reason that I believe it is important to recognize that we cannot live in perfect sinlessness is that a few things could happen:

We could deceive ourselves - fool ourselves into believing we are living sinlessly such that we do not acknowledge sinful attitudes, pride etc. when they crop up.
We could refuse to admit when we are wrong, out of a desire to think that we are continuing in what God desires... sinlessness.
We could become insensitive to others, not being willing to acknowledge when we have wronged someone, whether intentionally or not.


That is why I am pointing out that until we receive our resurrection bodies we cannot live sinlessly for any length of time. In reality, there are all sorts of attitudes, insensitivities, etc. that we are all guilty of all the time. But the Spirit doesn't bring everything to mind... only those things that He knows we need to acknowledge. 1 John 1:9 tells us that when we acknowledge (confess) those sins brought to our attention by the Spirit that God faithfully (and justly) forgives us those sins and also all others of which we may not even be aware.

take care,

Now cmon, OneOfVeracity. To not live perfectly sinlessly is not to be "living in sin." That refers to a hardened state in which the person refuses to acknowledge their sinful state or to deal with and repent of any sin they are harboring. Otherwise, we are all "living in sin." :D Paul, Barnabas, Peter, etc. they all "lived in sin" by such a viewpoint.

You are not listening to what we are saying it means to "walk in the light" or to "walk in the Spirit." It does not mean to go on sinning. It does not mean to ignore sin in your life.

Titus 2 says that we "should" live... I shared about the importance of not changing the standard for living. But it does not say that we can live sinlessly.

Now, if you are going to respond to this post with the same rudeness that you did to John146's then I'd just as soon that you didn't bother to respond at all. Now let's face it... there is no way that in making that post to John146 that you did so "sinlessly." Was your attitude there honoring to our Lord, and appropriate for this board? I only ask this question due to the subject matter of this thread. We're all trying to listen to and learn from one another.

BD: (edited-added) OK, re-read that post, and perhaps you were not intending to be as arrogant as you came across. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. :D

When we let pride enter into our responses it gets in our way, and keeps us from really listening to those that God would have us learn from. We obviously do not agree with one another. This particular split is a common one that distinguishes between those who believe that we are saved by faith plus works (in some manner-IOW, that works are required in some way to gain entrance into heaven) and those who hold to salvation by faith alone. You'll also find that those who hold to salvation by faith + works tend to say that though Jesus was sinless, that He could have sinned (peccable) while those who hold to salvation by faith alone tend to say that He not only did not sin, He was not able to sin (impeccable) since He is/always was God.

OK, Peter, you're right... :P they also tend to split off into OSAS and NOSAS.

BD

RJ Mac
Jul 29th 2008, 08:11 PM
GP
I agree we are always sinning as John says in 1Jn.1:8; But the blood cleanses
us as we continue to walk in the light, 1Jn.1:7; Jesus has saved us
from our physical nature and raised us up into His spiritual realm, Col.1:13;
Eph.2:5,6; Therefore as Paul says, sin no more Ro.6:1,2;

So instead of worrying about sin, we need to be focusing on righteousness
doing what we have been saved to do. The Jews constantly brought animal
sacrifices to the temple, had to live close to Jerusalem, a life of drudgery.
But we have been set free, getting our sins forgiven through prayer
frees us from worry, to live a life of service, leading others to Christ.

Nothing worse than seeing a Christian with a long face everyday, worrying
that there is one sin he has not asked for forgiveness for, that one sin
that will condemn him, wasting his life not believing that God has forgiven
him of all sins, Heb.8:12 I will remember their sins no more.

Judged based on our service, did we live for Christ or live for self.

Its the example of what they do to elephants. They chain one leg to a
concrete post or tree, until they learn they cannot escape, then all they
do is chain them to a tent peg and because of their training, in their minds
it is pointless to try to escape, they are pinned down by a peg.

So it is with many Christians today, Christ set us free from that concrete
pillar of sin that held us down and restricted our movement, but like the
elephants we believe there still is a little sin that holds us from moving,
Christ is saying your free, but our minds, our faith, doesn't allow us to
break free from the years of slavery to sin, so we are prisoners by our
own doing and don't live the life we can for Christ because we refuse
to accept our forgiveness.

Our foolishness scares people away from God because of the attitude we
display as we allow sin to keep its grip upon us.

RJ

BadDog
Jul 29th 2008, 08:16 PM
CARM says the following about this teaching:

Holy, Holiness


A quality of perfection, sinlessness, and inability to sin that is possessed by God alone. As Christians we are called to be holy (1 Pet. 1:16). But this does not refer to our nature. Instead, it is a command of our practice and thought. We are to be holy in obedience (1 Pet. 1:14). God has made us holy through His Son Jesus (Eph. 1:4; 1 Pet. 2:9). Well put. The point is that since we do not have a sinless nature, we cannot be sinless.

Could either of you tell us a little about your group?

Who is Jesus? Is he fully God? Has he always been fully God? Did he ever sin?

How do we gain eternal life?

Who is the Holy Spirit?

Thx.

BD

Gulah Papyrus
Jul 29th 2008, 09:13 PM
GP

Its the example of what they do to elephants. They chain one leg to a
concrete post or tree, until they learn they cannot escape, then all they
do is chain them to a tent peg and because of their training, in their minds
it is pointless to try to escape, they are pinned down by a peg.

So it is with many Christians today, Christ set us free from that concrete
pillar of sin that held us down and restricted our movement, but like the
elephants we believe there still is a little sin that holds us from moving,
Christ is saying your free, but our minds, our faith, doesn't allow us to
break free from the years of slavery to sin, so we are prisoners by our
own doing and don't live the life we can for Christ because we refuse
to accept our forgiveness.

Our foolishness scares people away from God because of the attitude we
display as we allow sin to keep its grip upon us.

RJ
Love the 'elephant' analogy...thanks.

John146
Jul 29th 2008, 09:19 PM
(This is for anyone who goes along with you --- not solely you John146)

You know what's sad? It's sad to think that you can live in sin and be acceptable in God's sight. It's sad to take a couple of scriptures out of context and build an enitire doctrine that's completely contrary to the rest of the Bible.

Hi, I'm OneOfVeracity, friend of FaithfulFriend, and I'm here to agree with what ff's saying, to say that their LIFE backs up what they say, and that I TOO live a holy, SINLESS life by the grace of God that's appeared to me and brought me my salvation. In fact, we personally know several HUNDRED people who have this same testimony (want to learn more about THAT? PM me).

It's disgusting to mix sin and the Christian life into the same category of "acceptable in God's sight." Whoever declares themselves to be unable to live sinless needs to "awake to righteousness and sin not" (I Cor 15:34).Who said it is acceptable? But John said that if we (speaking to believers) confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.


Study the OT - how did the children of God serve Him? Out of FORM, out of DUTY. They were UNABLE to live sinless because that power had not been made available to them.

Study the prophecies - what do they point towards? Jesus, the perfect sacrifice. The one that made it possible for us to NEVER have to go back and offer the sacrifice of repentance anymore; "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of..." (II Cor 7:10) --- when you're truly sorry for your sins, you don't sin anymore. Here's what Christ accomplished --- "For by one offering he hath perfected FOREVER them that are sanctified" (Heb 10:14).

Study Christ's law - what did He teach? "Go and sin no more" (Jn 8:11) and "Sin no more lest a worse thing come upon thee" (Jn 5:14).Of course Jesus taught to sin no more. But guess what? We do sin. Does that mean we're doomed as soon as we sin? Of course not. If we confess, He will forgive. Nowhere does it say that we have to repent and believe to be saved and then we have to live sinless lives to remain saved.


Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (12) Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

"...live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this PRESENT world."

I Jn 5:17 "For all unrighteousness is sin..."

Unrighteousness = sin, therefore righteousness = no sin

I Pe 1:16 "...be ye holy, for I am holy."

Quoted from God. God = holy, therefore (Titus 2:12) godly = holy.None of that says that we are not allowed to ever sin again once we're saved. Spiritual maturity is a process. We're constantly growing spiritually our entire lives. Sometimes we hit bumps in the road. But the Lord keeps teaching us new things. We sin at times along the way. We are not condemned for it. If we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive us our sins. Again, that was a message that John taught to believers. Our goal is to be overcomers. This doesn't mean we are expected to achieve sinlessness in our lives. John clearly said that if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. So, stop deceiving yourself.


We're supposed to be like Christ...

I Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.Yes, but this does not say we are expected to become sinless.


How is testifying that you live by the Bible and live holy, blameless, and sinless before God proud?John says that to say you have no sin, you deceive yourself. If you say you have not sinned, you make Him a liar.


John was talking to us, but let's discuss his whole message here.

What would "darkness" imply in verse 6? If you're walking in darkness, you're walking in sin.

And, let's make it personal --- "If (you) say (you) fellowship with (God) and you walk in (sin), (you) lie, and do not the truth.

Verse 8 - If you feel that you are righteous in and of yourself, and that you don't need God's power to (a) break the power of sin and (b) forgive you of your wrong spiritual condition, then, yes, you are deceived.

Verse 10 - If you say you have not sinned (Rom 3:23 - for all HAVE sinned...) then you're a liar because everyone HAS sinned at one point in their life.

I'm not reading where continual sin is acceptable. I'm not reading where living sinless is unnacceptable or proud.

Be careful when you're interpreting the Bible, God's Holy Word. There is ample proof in God's Word that He designed a plan for us to live sinless.I am very careful in interpreting God's Word. And nowhere do I find that we can reach the level in this lifetime that Jesus attained while He was in this world.


PS - I'm trying (and FaithfulFriend is trying) to help anyone who's willing to listen. There's a greater plan available to the souls of man than the weak and flimsy "sin you will/sin you must" plan. It's in the Bible that we live holy and PERFECT (spiritually). Those who disagree are not "rightly dividing the word of truth" (II Tim 2:15).You are not rightly dividing the word of truth by saying you are sinless. You are deceiving yourself. If those who are saved are expected to never sin again, why would John tell believers that if they confess their sins He is faithful and just to forgive us?

By saying that we do still sin, I am not saying this is acceptable or that we should take sin lightly and I'm not saying that we should settle for a mediocre spiritual life. We can continue growing spiritually even if we do sin at times. The reason for that is because He will forgive us if we confess our sins. Once forgiven, it is forgotten and we can move on and press further towards growing spiritually. But you apparently think you have already arrived. You have no more need to grow because you have reached a sinless state. That just isn't biblical to believe such a thing. We are saved by grace through faith and our salvation is maintained by grace through faith. Our works don't save us to begin with and they also don't keep us saved.

faithfulfriend
Jul 29th 2008, 10:12 PM
This is sad. You are sinning in at least three ways by saying you have reached a sinless state. One, you are lying about never sinning.

Could you show me where I ever made the statement that I have never sinned? I never said such a thing. Perhaps you misunderstood.

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

If I have never sinned, I would have never needed a Saviour to redeem me, cleanse me, and set me on the highway of holiness. I posted previously in this very thread that I used to be a sinner. I would sin more or less everyday, usually more. But when I repented, God saved me and I was therefore justified before Almighty God. Once you are justified/saved, all sins are forgiven and the guilt of sin is removed. (I have scripture for all of this if you want to see)


I don't believe for a second that you never sin at all.

You and I are simply on an Internet forum. I have no idea who you are and you have no idea who I am. The only way I can really prove it to you is to direct you to a true standing congregation of saints where you can observe their lives for yourself and see God's keeping (from sin) power manifested in them every day. I can post scripture until my fingers are blue but I honestly doubt it will do you any good. I'm sorry you don't believe me, I don't realy think there is much I can do about that. If I am a liar, then I am headed to the lake of fire:

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

One of the reasons you would stand against what I'm saying is simply because you've probably never heard it before, or at least never run into anybody who lives the way Christ would truly have them to live.


The Bible nowhere says that we can reach such a state in this lifetime.

When you are a sinner, after repentance you are therefore justified in the sight of Almighty God. Some call it being "born again". Now let's look at scripture concerning this:

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whoever abides in Christ (is saved) doesn't commit sin. Those who do sin do not know Christ.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Those who commit sin are of the devil. It's right there in the Bible, I didn't make that scripture up. The whole purpose of Christ dying on the cross was to destroy the works of the devil (sin) in people's lives. If this isn't making sense just tell me.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Whoever is born of God (saved, justified, redeemed) doesn't commit sin. I don't believe I can make it any more simple than this.

1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God. Righteousness is the absence of sin, or no sin. Unrighteousness is sin, that can be proven by the following scripture:

1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: (Therefore righteousness is the absence of sin, or sinless)


You are making yourself equal with Jesus!

Well what do you think being Christ-like means?

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Partakers of the divine nature (God's nature). Now is God's nature sinless? Yes it is. And the Bible says we can be partakers of that nature.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Christ walked sinless did he not? Yes he did.

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

What kind of steps? Let's look at the very next verse:

1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth.



Two, you are making God a liar by claiming to be without sin (1 John 1:10).

The answer to I John 1:10 I have posted numerous times, I shall post the proper context of the scripture again:

These words were written by the apostle John in I John 1:8. The Bible teaches that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and therefore all need a Saviour to reconcile them to God. John addressed this to those claiming they had no guilt, no pollution of sin, and no need of a Saviour. This is not referring to someone that has been born again through the blood of the Lamb and has been cleansed “from all unrighteousness” (I Jn. 1:9).
John said, “These things write I unto you, that ye sin not (I Jn. 2:1). This message is clearly declared throughout his epistles:
“. . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” I Jn. 1:7.
“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” I Jn. 2:4.
“And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins…Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin…In this the children of God are manifest and the children of the devil . . .” I Jn. 3:5-10.
The apostle’s message is clear and is in accordance with other New Testament writers. Those who would try to use I John 1:8 to uphold their sinning religion, wrest it to their own destruction and contrary to the tenure of all the scriptures.


Three, you are being prideful and that is a sin.

Absolutely not. I gave all glory and honor to Almighty God for saving me from my sins. I praised HIS name during my post, and I even posted the scripture that says "without me ye can do nothing." I need God every day, I need Him right now. I did NOT give myself ANY credit at all for ANYTHING. It is God's grace that gives me strength from day to day to live holy and righteous. I simply gave a testimony of my personal life and how God has so wondrously made me a new creature just as his Word said he could do. There's no pride in that. If God is to do something for you don't you give him praise and honor?

Ps 148:2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.


Who was John talking to in this passage?

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. - 1 John 1:8-10

The explanation of these scriptures is posted above. Study the history of these scriptures. John was speaking to the Gnostics who believed that they had no sin in their life before being saved/redeemed/forgiven/justified. If you would read the previous verse (7) you would see that the "Blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleaseth us from all sin.

Now if your cleansed from ALL sin. There is no more sin left over. God does a complete work, he doesn't do anything half-heartedly.

I see I have much to respond too....I'll try to do so as quickly as possible, but I have a life outside of the 'net so don't worry, I'll be back later. ;)

amazzin
Jul 29th 2008, 10:17 PM
...for a human being, saved or unsaved, 'lukewarm' or 'on fire', to NOT sin?

...or, on the day that Paul died, did he sin?

Sin is as much a spiritual state as it is a state of being. That is to say, the fact an individual refuses to believe is a Sin. The Bible say "Believe and be saved"

The sin of the Israelites was disobedience in "believing" Although they followed all they rituals and feasts the refused to believe and therefore "sinned"

keck553
Jul 29th 2008, 10:26 PM
Their disobedience was born out of thier misapplication of Torah. They profaned the Law of God, notibly the 5th commandment (as pointed out by Yeshua) while putting their own traditions first. Their sin was manifested in physical actions.

I would concur that those actions originate from the heart in the form of unrepentant unbelief. As rightouseness manifests itself in the physical, so does sin.

The Parson
Jul 30th 2008, 02:23 AM
OK, I really want to post an explaination to some of the confusion and will, but I'm sure it will probably not be received by some. The teaching is an old one that has been with my particular sect of brethren for centuries.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Notice Nicodemus had a major problem understanding the Lord because he wasn't separating spiritual from natural. He just didn't understand that the soul had to be reborn. I reckon he was looking at it from a salvation through the Law point of view. The same misunderstanding can come from 1st John 3 if the spiritual isn't separated from the natural.

1st John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So what was John talking about folks? He certainly wasn't talking about the flesh that doth not sin. Every one of you can probably point out verses that tell us the flesh is just plain rotten. So I'm pretty sure the flesh isn't what's saved. Neither is the heart and mind of man saved. Those are just plain rotten also. The heart is evil and the mind has to be renewed. That leaves the soul.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

With that said it is the soul that never sins, not the flesh ya'll... But then again, if you were to believe what I just explained you would understand what is really meant in one of the points of eternal security. Just thought I'd throw my two cents in.

calidog
Jul 30th 2008, 02:29 AM
...for a human being, saved or unsaved, 'lukewarm' or 'on fire', to NOT sin?


It is impossible to NOT sin as long as we dwell in this flesh, but it is possible to resist temptation.

calidog
Jul 30th 2008, 02:31 AM
[quote=Gulah Papyrus;1726293...or, on the day that Paul died, did he sin?[/quote]Only God can answer this honestly, otherwise Paul may be able to answer this, honestly or dishonestly.

BadDog
Jul 30th 2008, 12:34 PM
calidog,

Nice comment.

I'm still waiting for those two guys to answer my questions about their basic theology. The premise of this thread is unfortunately adapted by some unChristian orgs. It should raise a red flag for us.

BD

faithfulfriend
Jul 30th 2008, 12:35 PM
calidog,

Nice comment.

I'm still waiting for those two guys to answer my questions about their basic theology. The premise of this thread is unfortunately adapted by some unChristian orgs. It should raise a red flag for us.

BD

Working on a response....it's not going to be short answer, therefore the responses take time. Check your PM (soon). Your questions will be answered.:D

faithfulfriend
Jul 30th 2008, 01:33 PM
Could either of you tell us a little about your group?


I copy and pasted from some notes I have, but the format was completely distorted during the pasting of it into a response, therefore I just made it a Word .doc and attached it.

Short answer, I am apart of God's church, the church of God, in which Salvation makes you a member. All the saved are apart of the church of God.

Hope the attachment answers your questions. I'll be working on responding to the other questions, the responses may not be in order simply because I have notes with me in Word .docs here at work that I will just merely copy & paste to answer some of your questions. Why re-type what is already saved on my computer? :)

In answering these questions, I'm not looking for debates as of this current moment in time. I'm just presenting to you the answers using the Bible, this isn't going to turn into a "heated debate" or argument.

faithfulfriend
Jul 30th 2008, 01:35 PM
Who is Jesus? Who is Jesus? Is he fully God? Has he always been fully God?

To cite all the scriptures that prove the deity or Christ would require much space, so we will just mention a few. First, Christ is called God. The opening verses ofthe Gospel of John says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” The term “Word” or in Greek, “Logos” is Christ, for it says in verse 14, “And the Word [or Logos] was made flesh, and dwelt among us…” In Hebrews 13:18 we read, “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today and forever.” The same attributes applied to The Father are also applied to Christ throughout the Bible. The Bible informs us in II Corinthians 5:10, that Christ will be the Judge of all men in the last day. He forgave sin while on earth (Luke 5:20-24) a power only of God. Christ is also mentioned as Creator; Colossians 1:16-*17 states, “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” Also,only by Christ being God,could He be a sacrifice sufficient to atone for our sins.


Did he sin? No:

Lu 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Joh 8:46 ¶ Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:


Who is the Holy Spirit? The third person in the Divine Trinity is the Holy Spirit who likewise is given divine titles, attributes and divine works. Matthew 10:20 says, “For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” The Holy Spirit is seen in redemption. II Thessolonians 2:13 says, “…salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.” Then we see in creation, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” (Gen. 1:1-2) The Trinity is also seen in the formula given for baptism, recorded in Matthew 28:19. “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”

These aren't extensive, in-depth answers, but I trust they suffice to answer your questions.

"How do I gain eternal life?" will be an in-depth answer most likely. I would like to take time in answering that question. I would also like to answer your statement in post 31 (I think) concerning the sinful nature, and how it is impossible to not sin because of a sinful nature.

The issue I would like to cover there is Sanctification.

OneOfVeracity
Jul 30th 2008, 02:38 PM
BadDog,

This may appear a little lame, but I concur with FaithfulFriend. I have a full-time day job and don't have a home-PC. And, why post the same things twice?

And, I can speak the same for FF; the things I speak, he concurs with. When you're discussing doctrines with either of us, we're on the exact same page.

I'll be happy to help answer more questions.

Regards,
OoV

BadDog
Jul 30th 2008, 04:06 PM
Guys,

I'm satisfied. I read that .doc ff sent which described your church. While I do not agree with all of the assertions there, I am fully satisfied that it is Christian in nature. I like to see fellow believers major on the majors and minor on the minors theologically.

I am sorry that I felt that it was necessary to ask you guys to do this, and I much appreciate your quick response and the humility in which it was done. But there are some borderline-non-Christian churches and some outright cults which hold a similar view as your church does regarding sinlessness being a possibility. When you joined your pal here, I felt that it was safest to make sure a cult wasn't coming around to try to draw off some users here.

I would add that it is good for us to be aware of certain teachings which should raise a red flag, such as this one, prosperity theology, the Spirit is just the spirit of the Father - hence denial of the trinity, salvation by faith plus works (focus on works), etc.. (Not implying that these guys follow any of those teaching.) But certain things should raise red flags for us, and if it does, we need to ask some pointed questions.

Thx again. No issues, IMO. Just for those posting or lurking here, they clearly believe in the deity of Christ and in the trinity. Some of their views regarding the gospel (soteriology) may, and probably do, differ with my own, but they are not a cult.

Best wishes for good posting on this board! We may (do) have some areas in which we do not agree fully, but we are brothers-in-Christ.

I would encourage users to continue to think through this issue about sin. It is an important one, because behind it lies the concept regarding how we truly walk with Christ. Is the strength sourced from ourselves or from the Spirit?

Take care,

BD

faithfulfriend
Jul 30th 2008, 04:15 PM
Guys,

I'm satisfied. I read that .doc ff sent which described your church. While I do not agree with all of the assertions there, I am fully satisfied that it is Christian in nature. I like to see fellow believers major on the majors and minor on the minors theologically.

I am sorry that I felt that it was necessary to ask you guys to do this, and I much appreciate your quick response and the humility in which it was done. But there are some borderline-non-Christian churches and some outright cults which hold a similar view as your church does regarding sinlessness being a possibility. When you joined your pal here, I felt that it was safest to make sure a cult wasn't coming around to try to draw off some users here.

Thx again. No issues, IMO. Best wishes for good posting on this board! We may (do) have some areas in which we do not agree fully, but we are brothers-in-Christ.

I would encourage users to continue to think through this issue about sin. It is an important one, because behind it lies the concept regarding how we truly walk with Christ. Is the strength sourced from ourselves or from the Spirit?

Take care,

BD

Glad it was a help to you. No apologies necessary, there was no offense taken. There's nothing wrong with asking questions.

Are you still wanting an answer concerning your question "How does one gain eternal life?" I don't want to de-rail this thread, so are you desiring to start a new thread, or I can simply PM you my answer....it's up to you. Or did the questions I answer suffice enough? I'm willing to do whatever.

I'm going to take a few days this week (and next) and put together a strong study on what Sanctification is according to the Bible. Although it's a strong possibility that you (and others) will not agree, you will at least see according to the Bible how it is possible to live sinless through the power of the Holy Ghost.

One point I want to stress is that it isn't "my church", it's God's church. He sets the members into the body as it pleases Him. All those who are truly saved are apart of the church of God.

BadDog
Jul 30th 2008, 10:22 PM
Glad it was a help to you. No apologies necessary, there was no offense taken. There's nothing wrong with asking questions.

Are you still wanting an answer concerning your question "How does one gain eternal life?" I don't want to de-rail this thread, so are you desiring to start a new thread, or I can simply PM you my answer....it's up to you. Or did the questions I answer suffice enough? I'm willing to do whatever.

I'm going to take a few days this week (and next) and put together a strong study on what Sanctification is according to the Bible. Although it's a strong possibility that you (and others) will not agree, you will at least see according to the Bible how it is possible to live sinless through the power of the Holy Ghost.

One point I want to stress is that it isn't "my church", it's God's church. He sets the members into the body as it pleases Him. All those who are truly saved are apart of the church of God.
ff,

I am interested in how you believe we are "saved." Specifically, what is necessary IOT gain eternal life. You could either PM me or post it here. If posted here, I won't pursue it in any depth. I have a pretty good guess as to some things I expect to show up... could be wrong.

Take care,

BD

Gulah Papyrus
Jul 31st 2008, 01:37 PM
ff,

I am interested in how you believe we are "saved." Specifically, what is necessary IOT gain eternal life. You could either PM me or post it here. If posted here, I won't pursue it in any depth. I have a pretty good guess as to some things I expect to show up... could be wrong.

Take care,

BD
Go ahead and post it here, it seems relavent to the thread... As the OP'er you have permission(can I do that?) as it seems that it will eventually lead back to the OP.

Gulah Papyrus
Jul 31st 2008, 02:44 PM
Notes on Psalm 1 from the Apologetics Bible(Ravi and Co.):

1:5 The word translated "righteous" in the OT(tsaddiq) refers to a member of the covenant who seeks to live righteously; it is a discription of the true believer. The righteous are not sinless, but they seek to maintain a right relationship with The Lord.

OneOfVeracity
Jul 31st 2008, 03:46 PM
Notes on Psalm 1 from the Apologetics Bible(Ravi and Co.):

1:5 The word translated "righteous" in the OT(tsaddiq) refers to a member of the covenant who seeks to live righteously; it is a discription of the true believer. The righteous are not sinless, but they seek to maintain a right relationship with The Lord.

Agreed...for the OT. Sinlessness wasn't expected of those in the OT because the blood of bulls and goats couldn't wash away sins (Heb 10:4).

That's why the perfect sacrifice (Jesus Christ) is able to "perfect forever" (Heb 10:14).

faithfulfriend
Jul 31st 2008, 04:18 PM
ff,

I am interested in how you believe we are "saved." Specifically, what is necessary IOT gain eternal life. You could either PM me or post it here. If posted here, I won't pursue it in any depth. I have a pretty good guess as to some things I expect to show up... could be wrong.

Take care,

BD

These notes/study is from a book I have on my computer which is originally a .pdf. I converted it to a .doc and there were some problems, such as character spacing, wrong characters, etc....

I tried to go through and edit it as best as possible without spending too much time on it. It's 12 pages just to give you fair warning. I don't expect you to deeply read or study it, but if you just glance over it you'll see what I mean by bible repentence and bible salvation.

Hope it helps answer your question(s). If you have any more feel free to ask, I'm not shy. :lol:

faithfulfriend
Jul 31st 2008, 04:41 PM
Notes on Psalm 1 from the Apologetics Bible(Ravi and Co.):

1:5 The word translated "righteous" in the OT(tsaddiq) refers to a member of the covenant who seeks to live righteously; it is a discription of the true believer. The righteous are not sinless, but they seek to maintain a right relationship with The Lord.

Agreed with OoV. Under the Old Law, man/woman could not live sinless and holy, thus the blood of Jesus Christ was so needful and relevant in order to man to live Holy (sinless).

Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity [sin], and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely (with difficulty, with much work) be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

trustingJC
Jul 31st 2008, 08:51 PM
Thx ff for the article, though I have to say that I got a virus from that doc. (My virus s/w is handling it.)

faithful friend, sorry, but I tend to get lengthy in my responses. If you're going to respond to this post, if you feel that you need to, then please read it all through carefully. My intent is not to show how I'm right and you're wrong. I'm not trying to debate anyone. I just want to clarify my position. I think you may be misunderstanding some of what I have been saying.

I still see nothing in that article (those chapters from Romans 6-8) that says that we can live sinlessly. The words are simply not there. Now, did you read in that thread on 1 John that I linked? I addressed this there.

As we all strive to live a godly and holy life in Christ and to experience the power of the Holy Spirit in a practical manner daily, it is easy to go to one extreme or another. One of those extremes is to say that it doesn't matter how we live or perhaps to focus on perfunctory actions rather than the Holy Spirit... to focus on rigorous habits and regulations which Paul says in Colossians 2 have no real power to liberate us from sin...

Colossians 2:20-23 If you died with Christ to the elemental forces of this world, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations: "Don't handle, don't taste, don't touch"? All these regulations refer to what is destroyed by being used up; they are human commands and doctrines. Although these have a reputation of wisdom by promoting ascetic practices, humility, and severe treatment of the body, they are not of any value against fleshly indulgence.


The other extreme is the concept that it is possible to attain sinless perfection in this life. Let's look at that a bit...

Let me start by saying that the standard for Christian living is Christ Himself and it is spelled out for us in the Bible, God's holy Word. I am not advocating lowering our standards or expectations. There can be no compromise on the ideal and no lowering of those standards we see clearly revealed in scripture. Sexual sin is still sexual sin even if you struggle for victory there. We don't lower the bar. We raise our eyes to a higher standard for living.

However, that said, as we consider just what man is, it should be obvious that it is simply impossible for man, any man except Christ Himself, to continuously live at such perfection. We cannot live in a state of complete freedom from sin in this earthly life while we live in these (as I quoted Paul earlier) "bodies of death." Yes, that's from Romans 7. But Paul did not step out of his body of death in chapter 8, and neither can you nor I.

I am saying that "yes" it is possible for a human being to avoid willful sin, at least for a short time, or to have victory over some known sin or habit. But the sin nature itself simply can never be completely eradicated. The "blessed hope" is the receiving of new resurrected bodies. Once that occurs, we will be able to live sinlessly.

I think part of this confusion among Christians is due to a misunderstanding of some Greek (NT) and Hebrew (OT) words which are sometimes translated as "perfect." My point is simply that "perfection" is not considered to be sinless perfection by the use of those words.

In general, the idea of "perfection" is that of being complete or mature, as well as that of "perfection" in some contexts. For example, in the NT the related words often translated as "perfect" (noun) or "perfected" (verb) are...

τελειόω (TELEIOŌ) - "To complete, to finish, to bring to maturity, to make perfect"

τελειός (TELEIOS) - "Complete, finished, mature, perfect."

When Jesus said that "it is finished" when He was on the cross He used the verb above (perfect tense - indicating an act at a point-in-time in the past with a state of having been completed continuing into the present).

I personally like Hebrews 10:14 (exc. in the NIV) as it describes the work of Christ and our sanctification:

Hebrews 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has perfected (τετελείωκεν) for all time those who are being sanctified.

The idea here is that by one sacrifice Jesus has completed dealing with our sin for all time. But we are "being made holy" or "set apart" for the purpose of glorifying Him by our good works.

The same word (the noun) is used in Philippians 3, and we see it used there with the idea of maturity, as many Bibles translate it:

Philippians 3:13-15 Brothers, I do not consider myself to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: forgetting what is behind and reaching forward to what is ahead, I pursue as my goal the prize promised by God's heavenly call in Christ Jesus.

Therefore, all who are mature (τέλειοι - TELEIOI) should think this way. And if you think differently about anything, God will reveal this to you also.

Paul is not talking about sinless perfection here, but about spiritual maturity. Similarly, elders are required to be "above reproach" and "blameless." Neither of these words indicate perfection either. In an earlier post I listed a couple of verses where John tells us in his first letter that if we say that we are living in sinless perfection that we are deceiving ourselves and are liars:

1 John 1:8 If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we say, "We have not sinned," we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

So then, I do not know you, but I do not need to know you to know that you are not living in sinless perfection. Not even for a short time. If you think that you are, John says that you are deceiving yourself. To think that it is possible for us to live sinlessly will only discourage ourselves. It will lead to putting on a mask, a facade, pretending before others that everything is great, when we KNOW inside that it's a lie. Ugh. What a horrible way to live.

Last summer my wife and I went with our church's youth to a summer week-long program. At one point, my eldest son said that he was walking in sweet fellowship with the Lord. The way he expressed it was that he felt like God was just putting His arms around him and hugging him. Wow! I didn't ask him if he experienced some breaks in that fellowship. The point is that we can walk closely with our Lord, even while we blow it from time to time. 1 John 1:9 tells us that if we confess (agree with Him about our sin) our sin, our fellowship with God can be immediately restored. It's almost like breathing. It IS like walking. (That's the illustration used in scripture.)

But it is not sinlessness.

Now again, just because I openly acknowledge that I cannot live in sinless perfection, and just because I openly admit that I blow it - sometimes big-time, does not mean that I do not have a responsibility to try to measure up to the standard Christ has given us. It does free me up to be honest with myself and others.

We are told to not be proud, for example. But I do blow it there sometimes. Doesn't mean that I should just give up because it's so difficult in this flesh to live in constant humility focused upon others, as in Philippians 2:3, 4. I can live victoriously, and as soon as I fall, I need to get back up, tell God that I blew it (confession) and thank Him for His forgiveness and restoring me to fellowship with Him. He knows that I am a pig, but He loves this porker anyway. Go figure. I need to appropriate the power of the Holy Spirit. I can do so. I cannot live sinlessly, due to the flesh.

Personal holiness is expressed many times in the NT with the use of the word ἁγιάζω (hAGIAZŌ). It is translated as "to make holy or to sanctify."

When we receive our hope - our resurrected bodies - our sanctification process will be complete. The NT is so clear about the fact that the spiritual-filled life is one of spiritual warfare. Nowhere in the NT is the believer exhorted to eradicate his sin nature. Instead, the exhortations of Scripture constantly take into consideration that this is impossible and that victory over sin requires yielding to God and walking by the Spirit. (I like how John expresses it in chapter one of his first letter... "walking in the light." IMO the same concept.)

There are times, like now actually, when I have said with confidence that I am walking in the Spirit. But those times tend to get broken up with selfish motives and actions. I'm best at this when I'm not around people. :P They mess everything up! And God actually expects me to love them!

Another popular little error out there is that we are to "die to our self." Actually, crucifixion is always applied by someone else. People have misread those verses, such as Romans 6 and Galatians 2:20. The perfect passive tense is used which refers to something that happened to me in the past, resulting in a state of having been crucified. The old self was crucified with Christ when He died. But I understand what people mean when they say that. They're talking about yielding my life to the leading of the Holy Spirit - to walking in the Spirit. Hey, I've said it myself - probably on this board. The idea of the verbs in those verses is actually not in the present tense but is perfect passive and they read something like, “Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with him...” in Romans 6:6. In Galatians 2:20, most translations translate it more accurately as "I have been crucified with Christ..." not "I AM crucified with Christ."

Sorry for the rabbit-trail there. But what we are commanded to do is to walk by the Spirit ("walk in the light") which results in an abundant life experience, a holy life (one separated and set apart from sin - in general, but not perfectly), and a life that glorifies God. We can thus achieve holiness as the NT intends and we can realize the fruit of the Spirit in our character. It is living separate from the world, not conformed to this world system.

It is not, cannot be, sinless living. But it is a great joy to walk with our Savior! Whew!

Take care,

BD





What a wonderful message. I am so glad that I took the time to read it. You explained yourself very well and I learned so much from it. Thank You!

BadDog
Jul 31st 2008, 10:08 PM
Agreed...for the OT. Sinlessness wasn't expected of those in the OT because the blood of bulls and goats couldn't wash away sins (Heb 10:4).

That's why the perfect sacrifice (Jesus Christ) is able to "perfect forever" (Heb 10:14).For He has perfected (to make mature, complete, perfect) for all time (positional sanctification) those who "are being made holy." (hAGIAZW).

The 1st verb is perfect tense for "perfected" - which refers to an action in the past at a "point-in-time" with a present state of completed action. So the idea is that we have been made perfect in God's eyes when Christ died for our sins (or when we appropriated it by faith) and we remain in a state of having been perfected. It sometimes is expressed as a present state of affairs arising from a point-in-time past action. But we are also "being made holy." We are growing in Christ, being sanctified - we are a work in progress.

The 2nd verbal is a present passive participle "those who are being made holy (sanctified, separated, purified)."

Nice text - love it. We are not, obviously, perfect now - cannot happen until we receive our resurrected bodies. But Christ has paid the penalty and thoroughly dealt with our sins. Positionally we could say, as in Ephesians 2, that we are seated in heavenly places with Christ. But practically speaking, we still have that ole flesh to deal with.

Philippians 3:10-14 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

But thanks be to God who gives us the victory! No, we are not yet perfect, and we cannot live sinlessly. But all of our sins have been paid for, and we have the Holy Spirit to walk by our side.

BD