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mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 12:59 PM
What's your? I mean what motivates you to be good; follow biblical commandments?

The Parson
Jul 29th 2008, 01:40 PM
A desire to please God in and by my faith is mine Mike. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

It's quite frankly simple. He desires His children to follow after righteousness and righeousness can't be manifest without the faith that God will make you able to perform His righeousness. Does that make sense?

apothanein kerdos
Jul 29th 2008, 01:41 PM
A few things:

* Love of God - wanting to please Him

* Dread of judgment - dreading being chastised for breaking His moral law

* Pragmatically - when we follow God's moral law, things simply work out for the best (even if it leads to death or suffering, we are ultimately happier when we do the right thing).

keck553
Jul 29th 2008, 03:15 PM
Great post. You nailed it. Love and fear are biblical verbs, not nouns. I would add that the 'fear' in Hebrew pictographically illustrates God's soverign hand on man's head (literally). This is why man is not to fear in this context other men.

Here are the verbs that motivate me, not necessaritly in any order:

Fear
Hear, Obey
Love
Treasure, keep
Teach
Repent
Give
Worship
Pray
Fast
Serve
Work
Rest
Believe

apothanein kerdos
Jul 29th 2008, 03:18 PM
Great post. You nailed it. Love and fear are biblical verbs, not nouns.

I'm still pondering 'pragmatism' for it's biblical equivalent because the motivation is rght on. Sometimes faith and obedience produce more than a little cleansing fire. But you're right about one thing - shalom. Only God can give it. It depends on where you seek your reward.

Maybe it's 'hope'

Well by pragmatism I mean to say that God's way is better than our way. We are most happy, most pleased, and most at peace when following the ways of God (this is Scriptural). This would include morality - we will be at our happiest when we are morally following God. Though it might hurt our situation or cause temporary distress, overall we will be happiest when we do the right thing.

This isn't and shouldn't be the prime motivator for doing the right thing, but it is a motivator.

keck553
Jul 29th 2008, 03:23 PM
I broke down some keywords above (sorry I edited my post as you were writing yours) that may further clarify.

tt1106
Jul 29th 2008, 03:25 PM
What motivates me to TRY and be good is my love for Jesus and my desire to glorify him for the sacrifice he's made for us.
I try to honor Jesus by my life so his sacrifice is not in vain.
I fear God, but I don't fear judgement. I understand it is a part of everlasting life and Now that I am saved, I know I'm o.k.
I try to start my day praying for the strength to be Jesus to other people.
I guess one of my motivators is to motivate others to live and die for Christ.
I also try to honor those that are less fortunate and cannot worship God as they would like to.
-Blessings.

mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 03:48 PM
Great Posts and thank you. Do you think the answers would be much different if this were a Mormon, JW, or even a Muslim message board?

What makes Christian morality any more moral than any other type of morality?


I would say that I am motivated by His love for me, as any son would be motivated to honor a dad who loved him unconditionally.


The great commandment says to Love God and our fellow man. But I can only do that because He first loved me. Seems to me that everything I do should be because He loves me.

keck553
Jul 29th 2008, 03:58 PM
Christian morality? That confuses me.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 29th 2008, 04:09 PM
Because I trust our Creator to know what He is speaking of when He gives us instructions on how to have the "Abundant Life" in the universe that He created. Who is more qualified to write the owner's manual than the designer?

mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 04:12 PM
Christian morality? That confuses me.

Christians aren't the only ones who go to church, give their money, feed the poor, don't drink, smoke, chew or date girls who do. Their not the only ones who vote republican, don't go to R rated movies, don't cuss, love their neighbors, treat their wives and kids great.

What's the difference between what motivates a Christian and any other person to be moral?


Many, many people believe that if they do those things they will go to heaven when they die. Therefore their motivation is exactly the same as several who posted judgment as their motivating factor or fear of God.

mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 04:14 PM
Because I trust our Creator to know what He is speaking of when He gives us instructions on how to have the "Abundant Life" in the universe that He created. Who is more qualified to write the owner's manual than the designer?


I whole heartedly agree but is that any different than a Mormon, JW, or Muslim?

Friend of I AM
Jul 29th 2008, 04:18 PM
What's your? I mean what motivates you to be good; follow biblical commandments?

Well the answer should be "God" for all believers. There is nothing within the flesh which is good, thus it should no longer be us living, but instead Christ living through us.

keck553
Jul 29th 2008, 04:41 PM
Christians aren't the only ones who go to church, give their money, feed the poor, don't drink, smoke, chew or date girls who do. Their not the only ones who vote republican, don't go to R rated movies, don't cuss, love their neighbors, treat their wives and kids great.

What's the difference between what motivates a Christian and any other person to be moral?


Many, many people believe that if they do those things they will go to heaven when they die. Therefore their motivation is exactly the same as several who posted judgment as their motivating factor or fear of God.

With one glaring omission
So far, you haven't indicated what sets Christians apart for God's use only.

Fear of God is understanding His soverignty and obeying Him because He IS our King. What's so difficult about that concept? I'm already saved, so 'getting to heaven' isn't a motivation at all with me.

mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 04:53 PM
With one glaring omission
So far, you haven't indicated what sets Christians apart for God's use only.

Fear of God is understanding His soverignty and obeying Him because He IS our King. What's so difficult about that concept? I'm already saved, so 'getting to heaven' isn't a motivation at all with me.


But.........wouldn't a Muslim say that his fear of God (Allah) because he understood his sovreignty and obeying him because he was king say that was his motivation?

Can you tell the difference between Christians and other moral people by their actions if you didn't know they were Christians?

Friend of I AM
Jul 29th 2008, 05:01 PM
But.........wouldn't a Muslim say that his fear of God (Allah) because he understood his sovreignty and obeying him because he was king say that was his motivation?

Can you tell the difference between Christians and other moral people by their actions if you didn't know they were Christians?

And that is the conumdrum right there, and an excellent question. The answer to be quite frank is "no." Only God can make that determination as he knows each individuals heart and motivation behind what they do. This kind of reminds me of the point the disciples got to when they asked Christ "who will be saved?" Good thread once again Mike.

mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 05:14 PM
And that is the conumdrum right there, and an excellent question. The answer to be quite frank is "no." Only God can make that determination as he knows each individuals heart and motivation behind what they do. This kind of reminds me of the point the disciples got to when they asked Christ "who will be saved?" Good thread once again Mike.


So........Christianity is not a religion based on morals but a relationship based on Love.

If this is true shouldn't we interpret scripture based on this truth? Jesus didn't come to make us better people He came because we sinners; and while we were still sinners He died for us.

keck553
Jul 29th 2008, 05:26 PM
But.........wouldn't a Muslim say that his fear of God (Allah) because he understood his sovreignty and obeying him because he was king say that was his motivation?

Can you tell the difference between Christians and other moral people by their actions if you didn't know they were Christians?

Circular logic is not profitable. God instructs us how to be set apart in the Scriptures, both in physically and spiritually. It's when we don't fully surrender to Him that we become self righteous hypocrites and profane His Name.

This is the place where you've come and ask your question. I don't know how a Muslim defines his fear of God, but from what I've heard, most Chrisitans don't fully understand fear of God, in the correct context God put it in Scriptures. I think most people still apply the Greek definition of fear.

Friend of I AM
Jul 29th 2008, 05:27 PM
So........Christianity is not a religion based on morals but a relationship based on Love.


I would say Christianity is based on love and love is based on morals and does have standards to it, as there are things that one can come up with to describe something as "loving" or "unloving." I think doing good works based on the law were only part of God's way of demonstrating what love meant to us. I think grace and mercy through Christ fullfilled the rest of what makes up love. I think we need to be careful in defining everything and every religion as being representative of God's Love. We need to make clear cut distinctions between what God considers love, and what the world considers loving in our testimonies. God's love is exemplified in Christ, and our being able to experience in this love is demonstrative with faith in Christ.

keck553
Jul 29th 2008, 05:29 PM
So........Christianity is not a religion based on morals but a relationship based on Love.

If this is true shouldn't we interpret scripture based on this truth? Jesus didn't come to make us better people He came because we sinners; and while we were still sinners He died for us.

So God changed His mind and decided to make Christians? That makes no sense. You can't just wander around feeling spiritual all day, you have to do something. Love is not only an emotion in God's economy. Love is action. God shows love by actions, not just by feelings. God's actions are based on His promises and faithfulness to His promises. God defines for us how to love Him, through our trust and faith in Him - by actions He instructed us to live by. Then He put the motivation for those actions on our hearts, as Jerimiah prophecied through the teachings of Yeshua and the indwelling Holy Spirit. This is how we show our love for Him. God said "If you LOVE ME, you WILL....and then states actions..


God doesn't change.

We interpret Scripture based on God's truth.

mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 05:36 PM
So God changed His mind and decided to make Christians? That makes no sense. Love is not only an emotion in God's economy. Love is action. God shows love by actions, not just by feelings. God's actions are based on His promises and faithfulness to His promises. God defines for us how to love Him, by our faith in Him - by actions He instructed us to live by. This is how we show our love for Him. God said "If you LOVE ME, you WILL....and then states actions..

God doesn't change.

We interpret Scripture based on God's truth.



No love is very, very much and action. God showed His love for us by sending His Son to show us Who He was. He didn't create Christians, He created fleshly temples that would represent His love here on earth.

keck553
Jul 29th 2008, 05:44 PM
Maybe we had a semantic disconnect. I agree with that, just with the caveat that That God's indwelling Spirit isn't confined to post-Christ event. Many people in the Bible had God's spirit indwelled in them, and I would imagine many, many more people who aren't mentioned in Scripture also enjoyed the same blessing.

So, having said all that, just how do, we, as temples of the living God, represent Him? Is that where we started this convo??

mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 05:49 PM
Maybe we had a semantic disconnect. I agree with that, just with the caveat that That God's indwelling Spirit isn't confined to post-Christ event. Many people in the Bible had God's spirit indwelled in them, and I would imagine many, many more people who aren't mentioned in Scripture also enjoyed the same blessing.

So, having said all that, just how do, we, as temples of the living God, represent Him? Is that where we started this convo??

Now that's the real question?

mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 05:56 PM
I would say Christianity is based on love and love is based on morals and does have standards to it, as there are things that one can come up with to describe something as "loving" or "unloving." I think doing good works based on the law were only part of God's way of demonstrating what love meant to us. I think grace and mercy through Christ fullfilled the rest of what makes up love. I think we need to be careful in defining everything and every religion as being representative of God's Love. We need to make clear cut distinctions between what God considers love, and what the world considers loving in our testimonies. God's love is exemplified in Christ, and our being able to experience in this love is demonstrative with faith in Christ.


I agree but may change one line.

God's love is exemplified in Christ, and our being able to experience this love is demonstrative with [Christ's faith in us].

What do you believe that God considers love.

Would this be wrong?

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 29th 2008, 05:58 PM
Great Posts and thank you. Do you think the answers would be much different if this were a Mormon, JW, or even a Muslim message board?

What makes Christian morality any more moral than any other type of morality?


I would say that I am motivated by His love for me, as any son would be motivated to honor a dad who loved him unconditionally.


The great commandment says to Love God and our fellow man. But I can only do that because He first loved me. Seems to me that everything I do should be because He loves me.

Yes and no. Morality would still exist (theism allows for morality). Christian morality is deeper and more complex, however, because of the imago Dei and the fulfillment of the Law in Christ.

mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 06:01 PM
Yes and no. Morality would still exist (theism allows for morality). Christian morality is deeper and more complex, however, because of the imago Dei and the fulfillment of the Law in Christ.

................ but what would this look like? How does it play out in day to day life?

mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 06:05 PM
I agree but may change one line.

God's love is exemplified in Christ, and our being able to experience this love is demonstrative with [Christ's faith in us].

What do you believe that God considers love.

Would this be wrong?

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.


and could we say
God is patient.
God is kind.
God does not envy.
God does not boast.
God is not proud.
God is not rude.
God is not self seeking.
God is not easily angered.
God keeps no record of wrongs.
God does not delight in evil.
God delights in the truth.
God always protects.
God always trusts.
God always hopes.
God never fails.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 29th 2008, 06:06 PM
................ but what would this look like? How does it play out in day to day life?

Exactly like Jesus - you take care of the poor (whereas Islam teaches the poor are poor because of their own fault), you take care of the homeless, you help the orphans, you help the widows, you feed the hungry.

On a more practical level, you simply treat people with dignity. You don't put yourself first, you let people cut in front of you when they're merging onto the freeway, and so on.

Friend of I AM
Jul 29th 2008, 06:11 PM
I agree but may change one line.

God's love is exemplified in Christ, and our being able to experience this love is demonstrative with [Christ's faith in us].

What do you believe that God considers love.

Would this be wrong?

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Yup. I think you nailed it there. Now the question comes down to who demonstrates the Love of Christ in their life, as well as who has faith in him, and to whom God states is his in the end. To be honest I have no idea of what the ultimate future will be for everyman regardless of what they claim there religion to be...but I still think we should indeed try to inform people of the truth of God's word(specifically by using the bible and Christ). It's kind of like you start with the cold hard facts(found in the bible) stating..this is loving, this is not loving..and then you go to the grace part...

keck553
Jul 29th 2008, 06:28 PM
I think your question is what separates Christians from people who 'do good works'?

Yeshua didn't come to make a bunch of 'bad' people 'good' people. He came to draw us near to Him in relationship. I'll attempt an analogy....

My wife and I adopted a child. With this adoption he was saved from a life of poverty and probably abuse. Now, does he have to work to earn his salvation from that life? Of course not! We love him and would never cast him off. He is grafted in to our family, and as such, he inherits the benefits of my family. Growing up in my family, he assumes the identity of my family, and all the benefits that every other blood relative enjoys. He fully inherits our tradtiions, our teachings, and our way of living. Does he disobey from time to time? Of course. But that doesn't change his status in my family. Does he obey? Yes. Why? Because I made certain promises and am faithful to them. He can count on my faithfulness to those promises. He also knows there are consequences to disobedience. He doesn't obey me because he fears he'll lose his status and get tossed into the street. He obeys me because of love - and his identity in my family. And that is expressed both emotionally and physically.

Additionally he knows that there is One whom I must obey. He knows that I am not his ultimate authority, and he knows that I too must obey God.

Furthermore I know his love language and love him the way he needs to be loved, the same way God knows exactly how to love (via actions) each of us.

God grafted us into His family. He wants us to be identified with Him. He has an inheritance for us too. He doesn't want us to 'earn' anything, He want's relationship; His plan is to bring us back to the garden relationship. But as with any child, He needs to teach us how to mature and grow up. And like any child, we need to trust our Father, not the kid next door, or the guy on television - so we don't destroy ourselves physically and spiritually along the way. We don't have to know why not to stick out hand under the running mower if we trust God's wisdom.

Now any child that would boast about how generous and nice his daddy was and then stick his thumb in his friend's eye is not truely representing his daddy.

As we are sanctified, set apart for God's use, it is our set-apart actions sans hypocracy that draw people unto Him. Through our witness and actions we boast of our Father. you just can't take a list of rules from Paul and follow them on your own without blemish or hypocracy. Paul is speaking to actions that come from a mature relationship with God. We can no more do these things on our own than we can stop being sinners on our own. God gives us the strength to obey Him, but we have to start somewhere.

apothanein kerdos
Jul 29th 2008, 06:35 PM
A the risk of derailing the thread -

Mike, are you a universalist? Or, at best, are you an inclusivist?

I ask because in one thread it seems you're trying to prove there is no literal Hell and in this thread you're seemingly trying to prove there is little difference between Christian morality and other religious moral systems.

Maybe I'm misreading your intentions, but it's certainly coming across this way.

mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 06:38 PM
Again Great thoughts and posts. Thanks.:pp:pp:pp

grptinHisHand
Jul 29th 2008, 06:47 PM
It looks to me like the thread is going everywhere! But I came to give my answer to the original question:
I am motivated to live for God out of my love for Him which is because of His love for me. It comes out of relationship, one which He began by sending His Son to die for me, calling me to know Him. It gros out of continual time spent with Him, in prayer and Bible study. :hug:

threebigrocks
Jul 29th 2008, 06:50 PM
Love of God and love of others is very much synonnamous. For me, I'd say it's love which brings me to a morality that is not of this world.

Love is a action whether is in thought, action or in the heart. Funny thing is that we know we love when seeing wrong doing and the lost hurts us. Love is an incredible thing, but it isn't evident without the hurt for what is not loved.

The ability to love is not a shazam! moment as many think. They believe and poof there is love. Thing is - they are loved by the God who drew them near and revealed to man their nature without Him. We as humans have a road to travel in order for love in return, as Christ first loved us because of His divine nature, is evident.

2 Peter 1


4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Love is last for us to obtain, in keeping with the sort of love that is Godly.

mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 06:58 PM
A the risk of derailing the thread -

Mike, are you a universalist? Or, at best, are you an inclusivist?

I ask because in one thread it seems you're trying to prove there is no literal Hell and in this thread you're seemingly trying to prove there is little difference between Christian morality and other religious moral systems.

Maybe I'm misreading your intentions, but it's certainly coming across this way.


I believe that no man can come to the father but by Jesus. Jesus is the only way to the Father and the only way to eternal life. I believe He was born of a Virgin, that He is part of the Triune God. I believe He is the savior of all men, especially them that believe. I believe that in Adam all died and Christ all are made alive. I believe the bible is the Word of God. I go to church every Sunday, sometime to two different churches on the same day. I am involved at both. I go on Wednesday night too.:D I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ that lives in me and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave His live for mine.

I am not a universalist although I want it to be true with all that I am. I don't believe that 90% of all humanity, living and dead will burn in a literal fire for ever. I believe that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord for the glory of God. Those on the earth and under the earth. Philippians.

More than anything I am asking, seeking and knocking. I am asking Him, seeking Him and Knocking on His door. I am a Christian.

mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 06:59 PM
It looks to me like the thread is going everywhere! But I came to give my answer to the original question:
I am motivated to live for God out of my love for Him which is because of His love for me. It comes out of relationship, one which He began by sending His Son to die for me, calling me to know Him. It gros out of continual time spent with Him, in prayer and Bible study. :hug:


Way to rein us in..............:OFFT:

apothanein kerdos
Jul 29th 2008, 07:00 PM
I believe that no man can come to the father but by Jesus. Jesus is the only way to the Father and the only way to eternal life. I believe He was born of a Virgin, that He is part of the Triune God. I believe He is the savior of all men, especially them that believe. I believe that in Adam all died and Christ all are made alive. I believe the bible is the Word of God. I go to church every Sunday, sometime to two different churches on the same day. I am involved at both. I go on Wednesday night too.:D I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ that lives in me and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave His live for mine.

I am not a universalist although I want it to be true with all that I am. I don't believe that 90% of all humanity, living and dead will burn in a literal fire for ever. I believe that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord for the glory of God. Those on the earth and under the earth. Philippians.

More than anything I am asking, seeking and knocking. I am asking Him, seeking Him and Knocking on His door. I am a Christian.


So, as long as I follow some moral code (say, as a Muslim), then I am covered under the blood of Christ?

mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 07:16 PM
So, as long as I follow some moral code (say, as a Muslim), then I am covered under the blood of Christ?


Didn't say that.:o That was not the intent of this thread. Not at all. The intent was to say that morality does not make a person a Christian. As to whether or not being a Christian makes one moral, the jury is still out. I do believe that Christ in me and me in Christ will have fruit. Love, Joy, Peace, Patience...................but I just bear the fruit the vine produces it.

I don't want muslims to burn in a literal fire for all eternity though. Do you? ............and Yes I know it has nothing to do with what I want. Still don't though.

keck553
Jul 29th 2008, 07:16 PM
So, as long as I follow some moral code (say, as a Muslim), then I am covered under the blood of Christ?

If one is saved and surrendered to Jesus, they wouldn't need to ask that question. :)

mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 07:23 PM
If one is saved and surrendered to Jesus, they wouldn't need to ask that question. :)

He is and it was a rhetorical question. ;)

keck553
Jul 29th 2008, 07:25 PM
So was my question :)

mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 07:29 PM
So was my question :)

Please accept my apologies and interruption. :kiss:

keck553
Jul 29th 2008, 07:31 PM
My friend, you are keeping me accountable. No apology needed!

Friend of I AM
Jul 29th 2008, 08:12 PM
Again Great thoughts and posts. Thanks.:pp:pp:pp


No problem man. Good thread. If I've come off as offensive in any of my posts I apologize. Topics like these often times bring a lot of responses from people, and depending upon how your writting style is, one cannot tell the exact tone of a post or comment. Hope you know I was not trying to assert my knowing more than you on this topic. This is a growing and learning experience for everyone.

In Christ,

Stephen

Joey Porter
Jul 29th 2008, 08:16 PM
What's your? I mean what motivates you to be good; follow biblical commandments?

I believe there is a point in our spiritual walk that we can reach where we become one in heart and mind with Yahweh, wherein our wills are not our own, and we please ourselvess by doing what's right in His eyes. NOT out of fear of punishment. NOT with the idea that we can please Him in any way with any of our own efforts or anything we do. Basically, we just enjoy doing what's right because it's right. Not because we think we're impressing Him in any way.

We can walk with God, being one with Him, having His mind.

I hope that was understandable.

Friend of I AM
Jul 29th 2008, 08:20 PM
I believe there is a point in our spiritual walk that we can reach where we become one in heart and mind with Yahweh, wherein our wills are not our own, and we please ourselvess by doing what's right in His eyes. NOT out of fear of punishment. NOT with the idea that we can please Him in any way with any of our own efforts or anything we do. Basically, we just enjoy doing what's right because it's right. Not because we think we're impressing Him in any way.

We can walk with God, being one with Him, having His mind.

I hope that was understandable.

Yup. I was trying to get these words out of my mouth posts ago. I think this hits the nail on the head. Christ(God) living through us, as opposed to us living for ourselves.

threebigrocks
Jul 29th 2008, 08:23 PM
I believe there is a point in our spiritual walk that we can reach where we become one in heart and mind with Yahweh, wherein our wills are not our own, and we please ourselvess by doing what's right in His eyes. NOT out of fear of punishment. NOT with the idea that we can please Him in any way with any of our own efforts or anything we do. Basically, we just enjoy doing what's right because it's right. Not because we think we're impressing Him in any way.

We can walk with God, being one with Him, having His mind.

I hope that was understandable.

Is that not to be our condition from the get go? You die to yourself and live for Christ. Yes, we mature, but there isn't a point years and years from now where we become one through the Spirit with Christ. It happens at the moment you put yourself aside and begin to walk in faith.

Wouldn't doing whats right just because doing so without purpose? God wants us to do what is pleasing to Him. We are here to please and worship Him, to love Him as He loves us. What sort of relationship happens without a desire to please the other person? We can see that in our secular relationships - how much more should we do what is pleasing to God?

Friend of I AM
Jul 29th 2008, 08:23 PM
Didn't say that.:o That was not the intent of this thread. Not at all. The intent was to say that morality does not make a person a Christian. As to whether or not being a Christian makes one moral, the jury is still out. I do believe that Christ in me and me in Christ will have fruit. Love, Joy, Peace, Patience...................but I just bear the fruit the vine produces it.

I don't want muslims to burn in a literal fire for all eternity though. Do you? ............and Yes I know it has nothing to do with what I want. Still don't though.

Well, I think there are a certain set of standards that do indeed make one a follower of Christ. Believing in his name. Believing he is your savior. Believing he is the son of God. I think these things do constitute some sort of morality standard that God wants us to abide by and follow, and these things do play a part in the salvific process. I think though we need to be careful on stating that "this person is going to hell" or "this person is going to heaven" despite what religion that person proclaims themselves to be, as we don't know who or how God will demonstrate his mercy upon any man.

mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 08:41 PM
I believe there is a point in our spiritual walk that we can reach where we become one in heart and mind with Yahweh, wherein our wills are not our own, and we please ourselvess by doing what's right in His eyes. NOT out of fear of punishment. NOT with the idea that we can please Him in any way with any of our own efforts or anything we do. Basically, we just enjoy doing what's right because it's right. Not because we think we're impressing Him in any way.

We can walk with God, being one with Him, having His mind.

I hope that was understandable.


Completely understandable and well stated. I heard a story yesterday about a man taking his two young sons to the zoo and they wandered into the lion's cage. The Father says to the two boys. "Hey guys come give you pop a big hug." To that the boys ran to the father and away from harm. I think God is like that with us.

mikebr
Jul 29th 2008, 08:43 PM
Is that not to be our condition from the get go? You die to yourself and live for Christ. Yes, we mature, but there isn't a point years and years from now where we become one through the Spirit with Christ. It happens at the moment you put yourself aside and begin to walk in faith.

Wouldn't doing whats right just because doing so without purpose? God wants us to do what is pleasing to Him. We are here to please and worship Him, to love Him as He loves us. What sort of relationship happens without a desire to please the other person? We can see that in our secular relationships - how much more should we do what is pleasing to God?

This verse is beginning to revolutionize my thinking.

Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

keck553
Jul 29th 2008, 08:47 PM
The walk is the purpose, the goal and the will of God. There is no 'line' that must be crossed before we 'get there'. We are there. Having arrived, enjoy and seek out the new treasures and blessings God has for you each and every moment of your life.

Those are the consequences of obedience!

threebigrocks
Jul 29th 2008, 09:24 PM
This verse is beginning to revolutionize my thinking.

Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

John 3:16

16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

He loved us enough to send His Son. That is why if we just believe in Him, we can have eternal life.

We can have the fulness of Christ. Faith as small as a mustard seed can move a mountian, and that comes by believing.

Joey Porter
Jul 29th 2008, 10:47 PM
Is that not to be our condition from the get go? You die to yourself and live for Christ. Yes, we mature, but there isn't a point years and years from now where we become one through the Spirit with Christ. It happens at the moment you put yourself aside and begin to walk in faith.

Wouldn't doing whats right just because doing so without purpose? God wants us to do what is pleasing to Him. We are here to please and worship Him, to love Him as He loves us. What sort of relationship happens without a desire to please the other person? We can see that in our secular relationships - how much more should we do what is pleasing to God?

I don't think it can happen from the get-go. When babies are first born, they can't chew, they can't even crawl, let alone walk through life. So it is with our walk. There must be a growing process in us. A crop producing process that produces more and more.

As we grow in knowledge, we see that our wills diminish, and that it's less of us and more of Him doing the work. We realize and accept His complete sovereignty and begin to see that it is Him pleasing Himself through us, as opposed to us pleasing Him. However, as we grow, we begin to be more satisfied and receptive of this idea of less of ourselves. And while we may grow spiritually and produce more and more of a crop, at the same time we are realizing more and more that it is not us doing it to please Him, but it's Him using us as vessels to carry out His work. We begin to realize more and more that our wills are not our own. And we find peace and contentment in that.

threebigrocks
Jul 29th 2008, 11:23 PM
I don't think it can happen from the get-go. When babies are first born, they can't chew, they can't even crawl, let alone walk through life. So it is with our walk. There must be a growing process in us. A crop producing process that produces more and more.

As we grow in knowledge, we see that our wills diminish, and that it's less of us and more of Him doing the work. We realize and accept His complete sovereignty and begin to see that it is Him pleasing Himself through us, as opposed to us pleasing Him. However, as we grow, we begin to be more satisfied and receptive of this idea of less of ourselves. And while we may grow spiritually and produce more and more of a crop, at the same time we are realizing more and more that it is not us doing it to please Him, but it's Him using us as vessels to carry out His work. We begin to realize more and more that our wills are not our own. And we find peace and contentment in that.

Yes, I did agree that there is a maturing process. Never said there wasn't.

Where does a relationship with Christ come into this picture? By nature we are selfish and we need to choose to deny ourself and choose Christ. That just don't become some sort of evolution of faith. As has already been said - faith and love are verbs which very much apply to us and what we do. There is effort on our part. It's a relationship.

Joey Porter
Jul 29th 2008, 11:48 PM
Yes, I did agree that there is a maturing process. Never said there wasn't.

Where does a relationship with Christ come into this picture? By nature we are selfish and we need to choose to deny ourself and choose Christ. That just don't become some sort of evolution of faith. As has already been said - faith and love are verbs which very much apply to us and what we do. There is effort on our part. It's a relationship.

Well, that is true. There is an effort on our part in the relationship. But even the effort we give is given because He had determined it to be so.

Psalm 139
16 All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

So, whatever effort we give, whatever choice we make, has already been written in His book from the beginning.

Now, this is just what I'm talking about relating to this thread. As we grow in the knowledge of Yahweh, we begin to reconcile and understand more and more how His sovereignty relates to our choices and actions. And we find more and more peace with that, and we are content with knowing and understanding that it is He who works through us to accomplish whatever He wants accomplished.

Now, as for our growth and crop-producing process - I am a firm believer that the only way we can grow spiritually and grow in the knowledge of Yahweh is by suffering.

Even Christ Himself was made perfect through suffering.


Hebrews 2
10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Hebrews 5
7During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

When we first come to know Him, that is just the very beginning. We do not come to Him in any way being ready or equipped to inherit the Kingdom. There is a growth process, suffering that must take place. A crop that needs to be produced, and we must be more and more conformed to the image of the Son, learning obedience from suffering just as He did. I know most people have a hard time accepting or even acknowledging that concerning the Son, but the scriptures are right there before us.

Crops are only produced through death. Seeds must be planted more and more, and they must multilply, but this can only happen through death.

John 12
24I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

The only way to produce a crop, to grow and make ourselves fit for the kingdom, to carry our cross and follow Christ, is to die to ourselves. Die to the idea that we can somehow please Him or surprise Him with some type of good works. To know that all of our good works "were written in your book before one of them came to be."

That is how we walk with God and become one with Him.

John 8
28I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

John 12
49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.


We must reach a state such as this in order to truly please God. And it is a process of suffering that leads us towards this state. This is how we are saved by and through Christ. By using Him as our example of how to grow spiritually, by being conformed to His image, to make ourselves fit for the Kingdom.

TRL1957
Jul 30th 2008, 01:06 AM
What's your? I mean what motivates you to be good; follow biblical commandments?
The unending love, and mercy of Christ.

threebigrocks
Jul 30th 2008, 02:11 AM
We must reach a state such as this in order to truly please God. And it is a process of suffering that leads us towards this state. This is how we are saved by and through Christ. By using Him as our example of how to grow spiritually, by being conformed to His image, to make ourselves fit for the Kingdom.


So until we reach a certain maturity, we don't please God?

I still see no relationship in your post. What you seem to be saying is that we are simply puppets in God's plan. We don't mature by anything we do, we are just somehow grown up by the will of God. We are accepted by faith through grace, and from the moment we accept Him in our heart we are doing what is pleasing to God - by turning to His Son.

I believe you are getting salvation confused with sanctification.

What if we don't study scripture? What if we don't pray?

None of us are worthy, Christ died for us while we were still sinners. Some may die for a righteous man but who would die for the unrighteous? But He still did it. Out of love, in hopes that some would follow Him and be saved. There is nothing we can do to earn it, as you seems to be suggesting also. There is no reaching a certain state to be pleasing. We can't do anything in and of ourselves to do so.

Seems there is a sort of agreement here.

Joey Porter
Jul 30th 2008, 04:00 AM
So until we reach a certain maturity, we don't please God?

I still see no relationship in your post. What you seem to be saying is that we are simply puppets in God's plan. We don't mature by anything we do, we are just somehow grown up by the will of God. We are accepted by faith through grace, and from the moment we accept Him in our heart we are doing what is pleasing to God - by turning to His Son.

I believe you are getting salvation confused with sanctification.

What if we don't study scripture? What if we don't pray?

None of us are worthy, Christ died for us while we were still sinners. Some may die for a righteous man but who would die for the unrighteous? But He still did it. Out of love, in hopes that some would follow Him and be saved. There is nothing we can do to earn it, as you seems to be suggesting also. There is no reaching a certain state to be pleasing. We can't do anything in and of ourselves to do so.

Seems there is a sort of agreement here.

This is a complex issue to break down, because we're dealing with human minds attempting to understand an eternal, infinite, divine mind and order of operation.

We can't just dismiss scriptures that tell us that Yahweh has ordained all things. When the Psalm says all of our days were written in His book before one of them came to be, we have to accept that for what it says, while perhaps trying to reconcile it with our idea of what we choose to do. But again, it's deep and complex.

You and I can't really fully come to a true understanding of how Yahweh looks at man and deals with us, because He operates outside of the bounds of time and outside of this realm that we are in.

For example, you and I can be having a conversation on Monday and getting along fine. And this can continue on for a long time, several days. However, suppose on Saturday I say something that offends you and upsets you. Then you get angry at me.

From our human perspective, you did not know on Monday, (or Tuesday through Friday for that matter) that I was going to upset you. You found out on Saturday that I upset you, but before that you were pleased with me. But this is not so with Yahweh. He knows all things in everyone's lives, past, present, and future.

How can we even begin to grasp the way He deals with man? He knows the end from the beginning. He knows today whether or not we'll sin tomorrow. I could do something today that pleases Him, all while He is knowing that tomorrow I will do something that angers Him. Add to this the fact that He knows all things that are happening in the world at one time. He could be pleased and rewarding one person in one place while at the same time unleashing anger on another person. And that's only two people out of 6 billion!

Think about it - He is dealing with 6 billion people at the same time, dealing with each of them according to their actions at the same time. He is experiencing hundreds or thousands of different "emotions," for lack of a better term, all at the same time!

You and I just can't fathom such a thing. You and I can't fathom being overjoyed and pleased with someone today, while knowing they're going to harm us tomorrow and we'll get angry with them. We're human beings. We react. But in reality, Yahweh reacts to nothing. How can the Divine Entity react to something when He knows all that will happen?

And not only do we human beings only have the ability to react, we also only have the ability to deal directly and personally with one person at a time. Yahweh deals with all men directly and personally at the same time. Again, we can not grasp it.

This is why I say, to really please God is to just do what is right, and find pleasure in that. We must understand that He is not going to look down and say "Oh, I see you've done something good. I am now pleased." Or He's not going to say "Uh oh. You have sinned against me. I will now punish you."

He may deal with man that way, but that is not the way HIS mind operates. When He asked Adam if he had eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, He wasn't asking to find out the answer. Of course He knew. He was dealing with man in a way that man could understand.

I hope this has all made sense.