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cwb
Jul 30th 2008, 09:37 PM
Are there any pre-tribbers who believe that nothing bad can ever happen to them and they will never have to face persecution in this life?

The reason I am asking this is because I keep hearing post-tribbers say that pre-tribbers believe that. However I have been a Christian for over 20 years. In that time I have yet to find a pre-trib believer who believes or thinks that way. (and being that I had been pre-trib a good portion of my Christian life, I have met ALOT of pre-tribbers). So why do I hear post-tribbers always saying pre-tribbers believe something I have never even once in over 20 years heard a pre-tribber say they believe?

I was just wondering if there is any pre-tribber in this forum who believes they don't have to face persecution in this life or if they feel they are exempt from anything bad ever happening to them in this life, if they could post that belief here. I am just wondering if there is any pre-tribber around who believes what post-tribbers say they believe.

John146
Jul 30th 2008, 09:48 PM
Are there any pre-tribbers who believe that nothing bad can ever happen to them and they will never have to face persecution in this life?

The reason I am asking this is because I keep hearing post-tribbers say that pre-tribbers believe that. However I have been a Christian for over 20 years. In that time I have yet to find a pre-trib believer who believes or thinks that way. (and being that I had been pre-trib a good portion of my Christian life, I have met ALOT of pre-tribbers). So why do I hear post-tribbers always saying pre-tribbers believe something I have never even once in over 20 years heard a pre-tribber say they believe?

I was just wondering if there is any pre-tribber in this forum who believes they don't have to face persecution in this life or if they feel they are exempt from anything bad ever happening to them in this life, to post that belief here. I am just wondering if there is any pre-tribber around who believes what post-tribbers say they believe.I know a few people like that. Just because you haven't met any doesn't believe there aren't people like that out there. There are. Maybe not many, I don't know.

Has anyone here actually said that all pre-tribbers are that way? Has anyone here even said that most pre-tribbers are that way? Because you seem to be implying that someone has said something like that.

Also, if anyone here believed like that their belief in pre-trib has led them to believe they will never face persecution, do you actually think they would admit it? I tend to doubt it.

quiet dove
Jul 30th 2008, 10:10 PM
Are there any pre-tribbers who believe that nothing bad can ever happen to them and they will never have to face persecution in this life?

The reason I am asking this is because I keep hearing post-tribbers say that pre-tribbers believe that. However I have been a Christian for over 20 years. In that time I have yet to find a pre-trib believer who believes or thinks that way. (and being that I had been pre-trib a good portion of my Christian life, I have met ALOT of pre-tribbers). So why do I hear post-tribbers always saying pre-tribbers believe something I have never even once in over 20 years heard a pre-tribber say they believe?

I was just wondering if there is any pre-tribber in this forum who believes they don't have to face persecution in this life or if they feel they are exempt from anything bad ever happening to them in this life, if they could post that belief here. I am just wondering if there is any pre-tribber around who believes what post-tribbers say they believe.

I haven't met any either, and living here in the US, imagine that! It is interesting though to have so many people, on a regular basis, tell me what I believe and describe not only what my views are but why they are what they are... truly remarkable really, if they were not in error the majority of times!

cwb
Jul 30th 2008, 10:13 PM
I know a few people like that. Just because you haven't met any doesn't believe there aren't people like that out there. There are. Maybe not many, I don't know.

Has anyone here actually said that all pre-tribbers are that way? Has anyone here even said that most pre-tribbers are that way? Because you seem to be implying that someone has said something like that.



I am not implying anything. I have seen quite a few posts in this forum that say this is a huge problem for pre-tribbers. If only a very small minority of pre-tribbers believed this way, it is far from a big problem for pre-tribbers.

2 Peter 2:20
Jul 30th 2008, 10:25 PM
I am not implying anything. I have seen quite a few posts in this forum that say this is a huge problem for pre-tribbers. If only a very small minority of pre-tribbers believed this way, it is far from a big problem for pre-tribbers.

Persecution...Yes
Wrath...No

As a anything but post-tribber I believe it based on this scripture...

9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Kahtar
Jul 30th 2008, 10:40 PM
I've been pretrib most of my life, since I was nine. 45 years. And in all that time I have not met a single pretribber that believed that.
And I have read many posts on this board claiming that this what pretribbers believe, making it an all-inclusive statement, stating that for this reason, pretrib is a 'dangerous belief' to be avoided like the plague.
I have no doubt that there ARE a few out there, but I would submit it is very few, so few that I would in no way call it a 'common belief' among pretribbers.
But it does make a seemingly good arguement for posttrib.
I am wondering how many post tribbers are ready, in the event that pretribbers are correct? If they are waiting for the tribulation to begin, they are not expecting the rapture until after the appearance of the anti christ, the 3.5 years of peace, and the wrath of God poured out on the earth. Thus they believe they still have plenty of time. That sounds a little dangerous to me.
Of course, I am being 'all inclusive' in these statements.........
I know there are many who ARE ready. ;)

Clifton
Jul 30th 2008, 11:08 PM
Are there any pre-tribbers who believe that nothing bad can ever happen to them and they will never have to face persecution in this life?

Not on my end. Actually, just getting one's head cut off is less suffering than what a lot of others have and do suffer, past and present. :(


The reason I am asking this is because I keep hearing post-tribbers say that pre-tribbers believe that.Well, what do you expect from those into inventions? I would imagine they have simply attempted to defy logic and the News Channels and have distorted the beliefs of others.


However I have been a Christian for over 20 years. In that time I have yet to find a pre-trib believer who believes or thinks that way. (and being that I had been pre-trib a good portion of my Christian life, I have met ALOT of pre-tribbers).And me for nearly 40 years, and I have never heard such a thing. We did have a guy in town that decided that it is "mid-trib" (major fallout here), but the men with the straight jackets would not come pick him up, so, we choked it and spewed it.


So why do I hear post-tribbers always saying pre-tribbers believe something I have never even once in over 20 years heard a pre-tribber say they believe?Uh, you are not referring to one offline and in your community, are you? :hmm:


I was just wondering if there is any pre-tribber in this forum who believes they don't have to face persecution in this life or if they feel they are exempt from anything bad ever happening to them in this life, if they could post that belief here. I am just wondering if there is any pre-tribber around who believes what post-tribbers say they believe.Well, let's play it cool - perhaps they are just yet to learn better, and will know better as they progress (assuming social circles and religious affiliation has not bound them), I mean, it is not like when we turn our lives to G-d, that a microchip of all the information is put into our heads at once. ;) I mean, the guy I mentioned above ("mid-trib") was bizarre, and I have never heard of "post-trib" until THIS decade, and I spent much time in the different Network Conferences with people across the world in the 1990's. I really did not know much much about "Roman" Catholicism/Protestantism/Etc. until later on, and their influences - sure glad Grandpa does not talk too much. :P

Either way, as your context expresses, it is better to be a 'readiest' for anything to happen in this life and world, and ready to meet the L-rd, or be taken at any time, in one way or another. :yes:
http://clifton-hodges.com/images/RaptureSmiley.gif
Rising.

yoSAMite
Jul 30th 2008, 11:25 PM
Are there any pre-tribbers who believe that nothing bad can ever happen to them and they will never have to face persecution in this life?
Let me say that if that was a pre-requisite for a pre-trib belief I'd have to turn in my membership.

I am just wondering if there is any pre-tribber around who believes what post-tribbers say they believe.I'm often taken aback by what I'm suppose to believe as a pre-tribber, when others explain the belief. I often say to myself "who knew"?

danield
Jul 31st 2008, 04:14 AM
Well I have to say that I have seen many pre tribbers make very bold comments on other boards dismissing off any thoughts of having to endure any difficult times. I do have to say the pre tribbers on this board are very aware of all circumstances that we face as Christians. However it is hard to believe everyone here has not witnessed some pre tribbers capitalize on the soft sell many in the media make of the events that will happen during the GT. It almost goes with out saying that any major media outlet will take the road that any believers will not have to endure any hard times if they believe in Christ, and it is just not right. Lets just take the third seal…

Revelation 6:5-6 5 ¶ When the Lamb broke the third seal, I heard the third living being say, "Come!" I looked up and saw a black horse, and its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice from among the four living beings say, "A loaf of wheat bread or three loaves of barley will cost a day's pay. And don't waste the olive oil and wine."

Here is a vivid description of how famine will become the mainstay throughout the world. If I were following the pretrib theory, then this would never happen to me. However as we all know there is famine in this world. And many times there are Christians that suffer hunger in poorer regions of the world. How am I any better of a Christian brother than say the Christian brother who lives in those poverty stricken areas. I am not. The same can be pointed out during great conflicts we have had in history. It just does not stand to reason that this is what we as Christians will be spared from when it has happened over and over throughout history. I understand we are not officially in the GT, but the observation of events throughout history can not be dismissed when trying to understand the word handed down by our Lord and Savior.

I am not trying to debate the pretrib or post trib theory, but I am trying to show those here on the board where the media has sold many that if they are believers that they will not have to endure very difficult times brought on by the opening of the 7 seals. From the left behind series to pretty much any of the major Christian programs we see on TV. And it only makes sense. It is hard to sell something that is not positive to people. Most everyone wants to hear how things will be great if they only make a simple prayer (I will say that I believe with all my heart that the Lord hears every word in those simple prayers!), and don’t forget how shortly after their message they will ask for a simple donation! However, I do think sometimes we need to hear the truth even if it is not the most optimistic outcome possible. It is not the most profitable, but I sure am thankful when someone is candid to me. It helps me prepare for what I am up against.

calidog
Jul 31st 2008, 04:42 AM
Are there any pre-tribbers who believe that nothing bad can ever happen to them and they will never have to face persecution in this life?

This pre-tribber expects persecution and tribulation and the peace of Christ through it.

Literalist-Luke
Jul 31st 2008, 05:20 AM
Are there any pre-tribbers who believe that nothing bad can ever happen to them and they will never have to face persecution in this life?

The reason I am asking this is because I keep hearing post-tribbers say that pre-tribbers believe that.Speaking as a Post-Tribber, the vast majority of Pre-Tribbers that I know, either in person or via the internet, are fully aware that there might be a time in which they will face great persecution and other problems. For a Post-Tribber to assume that Pre-Tribbers are unprepared to face persecution is arrogant and naive. Any informed Pre-Tribber is fully aware that there has been a great deal of persecution of believers over the centuries and that there is no reason to assume it will ever stop until the 2nd Coming.
However I have been a Christian for over 20 years. In that time I have yet to find a pre-trib believer who believes or thinks that way. (and being that I had been pre-trib a good portion of my Christian life, I have met ALOT of pre-tribbers). So why do I hear post-tribbers always saying pre-tribbers believe something I have never even once in over 20 years heard a pre-tribber say they believe?You won't hear it from this Post-Tribber.
I was just wondering if there is any pre-tribber in this forum who believes they don't have to face persecution in this life or if they feel they are exempt from anything bad ever happening to them in this life, if they could post that belief here. I am just wondering if there is any pre-tribber around who believes what post-tribbers say they believe.I would like to clarify something about this discussion. There is indeed a potential problem with Pre-Trib if Post-Trib is correct. (I'm not going to debate between the two positions here, that's been done beyond exhaustion in other threads.)

The problem only applies to Christians who are uninformed about their own beliefs. That being said, 99% of the Pre-Tribbers here in this forum are not going to fall into this category, because it's almost impossible to participate in this forum, or another one like it, and to be completely uninformed about what I'm about to say. So for those of you Pre-Tribbers who are reading this, because you are aware of what I'm about to say, that automatically excludes you from this, because you ARE aware of this issue.

I’m talking about our current culture of “pop” Christianity. Today (at least in the USA) it’s “cool” to be a “Christian”. Everybody goes around with crosses hanging from their neck (even while they’re in bed with the lover of the week or buying the weekend drug supply from the dealer on the street corner). I’m talking about people who will listen to preachers like John Hagee who thunder to overjoyed congregations about the evil in today’s world and how awful it’s going to be during the Tribulation, the whole time thinking to themselves “at least I don’t have to worry about it”. I’m talking about people who go to Michael W. Smith and Stephen Curtis Chapman concerts only because all their friends are going. I’m talking about people who decided to join the church their wife has been dragging them to because “it’ll probably be a good business decision anyway”. I’m talking about people who advertise in the local Christian Yellow Pages because it’ll get them more business (and if they have to sign some “meaningless confession card” to get in there, then it’s a good business decision anyway). I’m talking about “preachers” who are starting new churches on every street corner because it’s “cool” these days to be a Christian and they want to get in on the glut of tithes while the money is still there. I’m talking about people who listen to the local Christian radio station because it’s “safe for the entire family” (and if it happens to talk about Jesus in the process, then that’s probably OK too). I’m talking about people who get angry when some radical judge wants to take “In God We Trust” off our money or “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance and yet the same people go around not even knowing if it’s originally from the Bible or not. (It’s not, by the way.)

There are more people than I want to have to even think about in this world and even here in the USA who are Christians because it’s “cool” and “everybody does it”. That’s “pop” Christianity. Well, my friends, “pop” Christianity’s days are numbered. And those are the ones who I get frightened for when I think about what’s coming. I’m confident that my faith can stand, because when it starts happening, it’ll only confirm the Truth in the Bible that I’m already familiar with. But I am uniquely blessed with this knowledge, as are most of you who take the time to read up on these issues such as in this forum. What about the others who don’t know any better and whose preachers don’t know any better?

Here's what scares me for these people: Most of you who have been following my posts already know that I'm convinced the Antichrist is going to have an Islamic origin. Specifically, he is going to claim to be Islam's 12 Imam, otherwise known as the "Mahdi". At least he will at first, anyway. Later, he will claim to be Allah in the flesh. The most popular notion for a very long time, however, has been that the Antichrist will be a secular humanist from Europe, a la Nicolai Carpathia in the Left Behind books. So a great many Christians are watching Europe for things to start happening, but they’re not too terribly concerned about it, because they’re figuring on being outta here via the Pre-Trib Rapture.

So consider this scenario: While the church is still here (and dwindling in numbers as we see happening around the world at this very moment), Islam becomes the dominant religious group on the planet. Suddenly, the Muslims have the upper hand. They start imposing all kinds of restrictions on Christians like they typically do in currently Islamic nations.

Then a man appears in the Middle East who appears to be prime for uniting all Muslims around the world, who also offers world peace and order in an otherwise chaotic world. Somehow, he is able to perform miracles similar to the ones that Jesus performed. I’m not talking about Benny-Hinn-type TV fakery here, I’m talking people being raised from the dead, I’m talking lifelong blind people being able to see, I mean miracles that absolutely cannot be explained away, just as Jesus’ miracles absolutely could not be explained away by the Pharisees. The press today is so cynical about that kind of thing that they will do anything they can to disprove such a demonstration of power, but there will be something about this guy’s display of power that they absolutely cannot explain it away. The world will be watching their TVs with their mouths hanging to the floor.

He proceeds to establish his plan in the form of a seven-year agreement with leading nations of the west, including Israel. Now put yourself in the position of a believer who has always subscribed to the Left Behind scenario and is unaware that it might not be the right theory. You’re still here, un-Raptured, your religion has been supplanted from its historically dominant position for the first time in well over 1000 years, there’s a world leader who is performing miracles, but it can’t be the Antichrist because otherwise the Rapture would have (supposedly) happened. So what conclusion are you forced to if you don’t know your Bible cover to cover? Or even if you do know your Bible cover to cover, but Left Behind is all you’ve ever been taught and it never occurred to you that it might be wrong? How many of these people who are unaware that the Left Behind scenario might be wrong would wind up being fooled into thinking that they had it all wrong and that Christianity might be one great big lie? (Just like Da Vinci Code author Dan Brown and a lot of others are working very hard to shout from the rooftops, even at this very moment.)

Paul talks in II Thessalonians 2 about “the falling away”. When I realized how Post-Trib fits together with the Antichrist/Mahdi/Gog scenario, it was absolutely terrifying to consider the prospect of the “falling away”. I can't help wondering how many people might be fooled into falling for the Antichrist's lies, because they won't even realize that's who he is. Because the Rapture never came, and because he's not a European secular humanist.

As I've said, however, 99% of the Pre-Tribbers here are fully aware of such theories, so if it turned out to be true, 99% of the Pre-Tribbers here in this forum would not be fooled. So, to sum it all up, this Post-Tribber does not believe for one second that being Pre-Trib is an automatic setup for being fooled into thinking that you'll never be persecuted. It's just the ones who get into the "pop" Christianity that is part of the Age of Laodicea.

OK, end soap box...........:D

Literalist-Luke
Jul 31st 2008, 05:22 AM
Persecution...Yes
Wrath...No

As a anything but post-tribber I believe it based on this scripture...

9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.Just FYI, this Post-Tribber says we will not endure one second of God's Wrath.

danield
Jul 31st 2008, 02:20 PM
For a Post-Tribber to assume that Pre-Tribbers are unprepared to face persecution is arrogant and naive.
Well I know this thread has stemmed from a post that I have made in another thread, and it is my opinion that many pretribbers especially on other boards and in the media feel strongly that they will not face any difficult times brought on by the opening of the seven seals. I can not read their minds nor know exactly what is in anyone’s heart, but from the comments, expressions, and general enthusiasm from disaster that have occurred throughout the world they feel that they are isolated from calamity from falling on them. I do not know any other way to share my thoughts other than to say exactly what I have witnessed. I am surprised people have not witnessed the same because it is very noticeable in our Christian circles. So noticeable we are made fun of on other non Christian boards. Again, I will say that the people here on this board are very in tune to all versions of the end time’s scenario, and do not fall into this category. I assure you it is not out of arrogance that I make these comment, but out of grief from what I have witnessed.

dworthington
Jul 31st 2008, 02:49 PM
All Christians have or will face persecution since the time of Christ. The mis-understanding comes for the belief that we will not go through the 7 year tribulation and the 3.5 year great tribulation. Pre-tribbes believe in a rapture before that 7 year period.

Regardless of one's view of prophecy, today is another day closer......are you witnessing?

danield
Jul 31st 2008, 03:10 PM
All Christians have or will face persecution since the time of Christ. The mis-understanding comes for the belief that we will not go through the 7 year tribulation and the 3.5 year great tribulation. Pre-tribbes believe in a rapture before that 7 year period.

Regardless of one's view of prophecy, today is another day closer......are you witnessing?


I think it has developed into a bit more dworthington. And yes I am trying to witness when I see an opportunity open up.
God Bless!

theBelovedDisciple
Jul 31st 2008, 03:25 PM
Are there any pre-tribbers who believe that nothing bad can ever happen to them and they will never have to face persecution in this life?

The reason I am asking this is because I keep hearing post-tribbers say that pre-tribbers believe that. However I have been a Christian for over 20 years. In that time I have yet to find a pre-trib believer who believes or thinks that way. (and being that I had been pre-trib a good portion of my Christian life, I have met ALOT of pre-tribbers). So why do I hear post-tribbers always saying pre-tribbers believe something I have never even once in over 20 years heard a pre-tribber say they believe?

I was just wondering if there is any pre-tribber in this forum who believes they don't have to face persecution in this life or if they feel they are exempt from anything bad ever happening to them in this life, if they could post that belief here. I am just wondering if there is any pre-tribber around who believes what post-tribbers say they believe.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Persecutuon: YES

Tribulation: YES

A Martyr: If its in His plans.. then YES.. if not then I'll live out my days here in continual patience and being thankful for everything I recieve in this life whether it be big or small.

Discipline or Chastisement as a Believer: MOST CERTAINLEY YES..

Jesus said .... BE of Good Cheer.... LET NOT YOUR HEART BE TROUBLED.....In this world u will have persecution and tribulation... but take heart and BE OF GOOD CHEER... He Has OVERCOME THE WORLD...


His Wrath: NO.... I know some who believe that as a child of God .. He would pour out His wrath on His own children.... We are delivered from WRATH...... HIS WRATH...... There will be chastisement and discipline as a believer... He was the substitute at the CROSS.. He bore what His children were suppose to endure or have poured out on them. These He has known since the foundation of the world. In the Kingdom of Heaven.. there is no such thing as DOUBLE JEPARODY...... Jesus taking and bearing what His children were suppoe to take then He turning around and unleashing His wrath right back on them.. We are delivered from that....

I have never thought that as a believer I would be immune from persecution and tribulation... actually the Bible tells me I'm ordained unto that... and that Jesus tells me to counsel Him and to buy of Him.. His gold.. tried in the fire.... this is not a picture of the 'easy' going walk that some may proclaim and follow..

calidog
Jul 31st 2008, 03:46 PM
......are you witnessing?or at least living as a witness

cwb
Jul 31st 2008, 04:27 PM
I’m talking about our current culture of “pop” Christianity. Today (at least in the USA) it’s “cool” to be a “Christian”. Everybody goes around with crosses hanging from their neck (even while they’re in bed with the lover of the week or buying the weekend drug supply from the dealer on the street corner). I’m talking about people who will listen to preachers like John Hagee who thunder to overjoyed congregations about the evil in today’s world and how awful it’s going to be during the Tribulation, the whole time thinking to themselves “at least I don’t have to worry about it”. I’m talking about people who go to Michael W. Smith and Stephen Curtis Chapman concerts only because all their friends are going. I’m talking about people who decided to join the church their wife has been dragging them to because “it’ll probably be a good business decision anyway”. I’m talking about people who advertise in the local Christian Yellow Pages because it’ll get them more business (and if they have to sign some “meaningless confession card” to get in there, then it’s a good business decision anyway). I’m talking about “preachers” who are starting new churches on every street corner because it’s “cool” these days to be a Christian and they want to get in on the glut of tithes while the money is still there. I’m talking about people who listen to the local Christian radio station because it’s “safe for the entire family” (and if it happens to talk about Jesus in the process, then that’s probably OK too). I’m talking about people who get angry when some radical judge wants to take “In God We Trust” off our money or “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance and yet the same people go around not even knowing if it’s originally from the Bible or not. (It’s not, by the way.)

There are more people than I want to have to even think about in this world and even here in the USA who are Christians because it’s “cool” and “everybody does it”. That’s “pop” Christianity. Well, my friends, “pop” Christianity’s days are numbered.

That's interesting. I've never really heard of Christianity as being the "cool" thing to do. Everywhere I've lived in the U.S. it seems that Christianity is the "uncool" thing to do. Everywhere I've lived, it seems that drugs and fornication are the "cool" thing to do whereas Christianity is "uncool".

cwb
Jul 31st 2008, 05:28 PM
Regardless of one's view of prophecy, today is another day closer......are you witnessing?

Excellent point. The end result of studying end times, regardless of one's viewpoint should be to motivate to do whatever we can to ensure that others also are in the presence of our Lord at His coming.

Literalist-Luke
Aug 1st 2008, 12:50 AM
That's interesting. I've never really heard of Christianity as being the "cool" thing to do. Everywhere I've lived in the U.S. it seems that Christianity is the "uncool" thing to do. Everywhere I've lived, it seems that drugs and fornication are the "cool" thing to do whereas Christianity is "uncool".I suppose it depends on where you live. I'm in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. Around here, there's a church on just about every street corner, with each one seemingly trying to outhype the others. They're even coming up with catchy names just to get your attention as you drive by. I'm in door-to-door sales and I'd say at least one out of every four homes around here has something on the front of their house to make sure you know they're a "Christian", but then half the time they're hateful to me because I'm a salesman. Real Christlike behavior. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. The people who will tell you they're Christians because they think it's cool.

"Yeah, I go to "DFW Super Mega Church" over here, we have the biggest programs, the most dramatic sermons, the largest congregation, the most complete bookstore, all my kids go to our church's private school (doesn't that make me a great parent, isn't God proud of me?), we only listen to "family" radio stations.........and so forth and so on. Get the picture?

StevenC
Aug 2nd 2008, 02:27 AM
Maybe I am just confused here, but isn't the idea of pre-Trib that people believe that God will rescue them before they experience the Great Tribulation (see also: the fifth seal in Rev and Christ's reference to a great tribulation in Matthew 24-25.)

Doesn't a post-trib belief just mean that Christians will have to endure through the tribulation? I assume here that I am post trib by definition as I believe that the Church must experience a tribulation as part of the fulfillment of God's prophecy.

In the fifth seal God tells the saints to be patient because he was waiting on more faithful Christians to be killed for their testimony or belief. That is what I consider the Great Tribulation, so if people believe they are going to be rescued and not have to go through this then my question is, why?

You know tribulation on the Church isn't something we should be looking forward too, but if its part of God's plan then so be it.

-Steven

calidog
Aug 2nd 2008, 02:34 AM
In the fifth seal God tells the saints to be patient because he was waiting on more faithful Christians to be killed for their testimony or belief. That is what I consider the Great Tribulation, so if people believe they are going to be rescued and not have to go through this then my question is, why?



The believers who come to Christ during the Tribulation.

StevenC
Aug 2nd 2008, 02:45 AM
The believers who come to Christ during the Tribulation.

A strange answer, I don't accept it personally. If you have scripture to support this interpretation I would be interested to know it, but I have no scripture off the top of my head disproving it so there we are.

-Steven

calidog
Aug 2nd 2008, 02:57 AM
A strange answer, I don't accept it personally. If you have scripture to support this interpretation I would be interested to know it, but I have no scripture off the top of my head disproving it so there we are.

-StevenI suppose you could interpret it either way depending on your outlook.
In the letters to the seven churches some believers will or may go through the tribulation.
some will not or may not.


Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

awestruckchild
Aug 2nd 2008, 03:11 AM
Are there any pre-tribbers who believe that nothing bad can ever happen to them and they will never have to face persecution in this life?

The reason I am asking this is because I keep hearing post-tribbers say that pre-tribbers believe that. However I have been a Christian for over 20 years. In that time I have yet to find a pre-trib believer who believes or thinks that way. (and being that I had been pre-trib a good portion of my Christian life, I have met ALOT of pre-tribbers). So why do I hear post-tribbers always saying pre-tribbers believe something I have never even once in over 20 years heard a pre-tribber say they believe?

I was just wondering if there is any pre-tribber in this forum who believes they don't have to face persecution in this life or if they feel they are exempt from anything bad ever happening to them in this life, if they could post that belief here. I am just wondering if there is any pre-tribber around who believes what post-tribbers say they believe.


I would be considered a "pre-tribber" but to believe that no difficulties will ever befall me in life would be just plain refusing to believe the very words of Jesus. He said we would have tribulations in this life and no amount of wishful thinking can change His words of truth.

As to the gathering together or the "rapture, we are not talking about the tribulations, hardships or troubles of life. With the "Great Tribulation", we are talking about the wrath of God and I know that I will never face His wrath because my sins are forgiven.

I also know how He has acted in the past regarding the removal of the righteous before His wrath came. With Noah and with Lot. As the conversation went, God assured Abraham He would not destroy the town Lot lived in if He even found one righteous man in it. (Actually, I think the count ended at either 5 or 10 righteous - would have to look it up - but I got from this that He would in no way destroy a single righteous person in His wrath along with the wicked.)

Of course, I don't know how anyone could possibly have any other view and yet say they trusted God.

StevenC
Aug 2nd 2008, 03:14 AM
I suppose you could interpret it either way depending on your outlook.

Maybe.. You would still need to prove that a "rapture" came before tribulation for a pre-trib belief to be biblically sound.

-Steven

calidog
Aug 2nd 2008, 03:23 AM
Maybe.. You would still need to prove that a "rapture" came before tribulation for a pre-trib belief to be biblically sound.

-StevenI certainly believe it is biblically sound but that it is'nt worth debating, what would be the point?

Some are looking for the return of Christ, others are expecting the anti-christ

StevenC
Aug 2nd 2008, 03:25 AM
I certainly believe it is biblically sound but that it is'nt worth debating, what would be the point?

To know the truth.

-Steven

calidog
Aug 2nd 2008, 03:28 AM
To know the truth.

-Steven
the Truth: Christ died and was raised on the third day. Once you've got that the rest is endless fruitless debate.

If pre-trib/post-trib was pivitol, the Lord would have surely made it clear.

StevenC
Aug 2nd 2008, 03:34 AM
the Truth: Christ died and was raised on the third day. Once you've got that the rest is endless fruitless debate.

If pre-trib/post-trib was pivitol, the Lord would have surely made it clear.

Christ also taught end times. In fact it is Christ's teaching from which we can be assured of a great tribulation. I personally don't wish to reject knowledge and intentionally stay ignorant. If it is possible to know which is true, pre-trib or post-trib, then we ought to look. If it is possible we ourselves are deceived in something minor, then perhaps we can also be deceived in something major.. we won't know unless we test all things.

-Steven

StevenC
Aug 2nd 2008, 03:37 AM
If pre-trib/post-trib was pivitol, the Lord would have surely made it clear.

People still ask whether it is faith or works.. Sometimes the simple things are not so clear. Yet if we believe we are justified in works then we are deceived and our faith is in ourselves, so clearly it is important to know the truth of even simple things.

-Steven

Edit: This is an argument to show how simple issues can cause problems. The idea being that if something as simple as faith vs works is important to our walk with God, certainly knowing the truth of something as complex as end times can come in handy for something.

calidog
Aug 2nd 2008, 03:41 AM
Christ also taught end times. In fact it is Christ's teaching from which we can be assured of a great tribulation. I personally don't wish to reject knowledge and intentionally stay ignorant. If it is possible to know which is true, pre-trib or post-trib, then we ought to look. If it is possible we ourselves are deceived in something minor, then perhaps we can also be deceived in something major.. we won't know unless we test all things.

-StevenI see your point and I'm in the dispensation camp and clearly see it in the scripture. It brings me great comfort to believe God will keep His promises to Israel (and thus, all promises to everyone), and yet deliver His church.

The thing to do is continue studying the scriptures (I have to remind myself this occassionally).

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

But when the debates turn heated and ugly, they become pointless, unproductive, fruitless, and a wast of good time.

StevenC
Aug 2nd 2008, 03:47 AM
I see your point and I'm in the dispensation camp and clearly see it in the scripture. It brings me great comfort to believe God will keep His promises to Israel and yet deliver the church.

I am not trying to steal your comfort calidog. I too take comfort not in end times, but in knowing that my redeemer lives and though one day I will perish, I will see him again. (Job 19:25)

If you are willing or if another pre-trib believer is willing, I would still like to know of scripture that shows strong evidence of a rapture before the tribulation.

-Steven

StevenC
Aug 2nd 2008, 03:57 AM
But when the debates turn heated and ugly, they become pointless, unproductive, fruitless, and a wast of good time.

Yes, there is no point in participating a debate when two parties are only interest in cramming their view down the other one's throat. To be honest this thread made me consider that I am not really sure what pre-tribbers actually believe. Previously I had assumed that they just ignore scripture, but I guess I was convicted of my own ignorance that I really may not know what or why pre-trib belief has such a strong following. I just hope it is grounded in scripture and not the result of those left behind books.

-Steven

wpm
Aug 2nd 2008, 04:13 AM
I'm glad to see so many Pretribbers accepting the fact the Church is now in the tribulation period.

Paul

calidog
Aug 2nd 2008, 04:40 AM
I just hope it is grounded in scripture and not the result of those left behind books.

-Steven
I'm sure many, and hopefully not too many, have come through those books and base their theology on those books. Unfortunately many of us would prefer a short cut rather than study scripture in its entirety.

Kahtar
Aug 2nd 2008, 05:34 AM
I've got to say something about those 'Left Behind' books.
First, I was pre-trib 30 years before those books came out.
Second, there is a lot of stuff in the LB series that I do not agree with.
I know quite a few people have swallowed that stuff, but seriously, even tho I am pre-trib, I see those books as nothing more than fictional stories not so different from alot of secular 'end of the world' stories we get from Hollywood, nothing more than a way for the authors to make a bundle of money, merchandising God's Word for profit.

cwb
Aug 2nd 2008, 05:36 AM
I'm glad to see so many Pretribbers accepting the fact the Church is now in the tribulation period.

Paul

I think most pre-tribbers believe there is a difference between "tribulation" and "the great tribulation".

RevLogos
Aug 2nd 2008, 05:37 AM
I don’t label myself as pre-post-mid trib anything. I am convinced I will be spared God’s wrath. But Christians have never been promised protection from Man or Satan. Much of the sorrows spoken of in Revelation are happening now, today, to Christians in parts of the world. Beheadings? Check. Unable to get jobs? Check. Forced to recant or watch your family be tortured and murdered? Check. This is not the wrath of God.

The difference between now and later is that this isolated persecution will become worldwide. To spread across the world will require world leadership – something I think will happen before any rapture.

2 Ti 3:1-3:9 talks about difficult times to come. I expect these times will occur before any rapture because they are in fact happening now and growing. Many will be captivated and lost. 2 Pe 3:4 talks about scoffers who will ask “Where is His promised return?” Could these be lukewarm 1-day-a-week Christians who were taught they would not suffer persecution?

The risks is not the pre-trib view in and of itself. But when combined with the Emergent Church, Seeker Friendly and liberal theologies that avoid the hard lessons and the reality of hatred toward Christians, then I think we will have people leaving the church for the promise of a new Prophet, perhaps someone claiming to be Jesus Himself, who teaches how to avoid persecution – by just following him and the new one world religion.

calidog
Aug 2nd 2008, 06:14 AM
Second, there is a lot of stuff in the LB series that I do not agree with.
I know quite a few people have swallowed that stuff, but seriously, even tho I am pre-trib, I see those books as nothing more than fictional stories not so different from alot of secular 'end of the world' stories we get from Hollywood, nothing more than a way for the authors to make a bundle of money, merchandising God's Word for profit.I thought they were kinda cool when they first started coming out but were quickly getting "way out there" and I totally lost interest in them. I'm sure they've made lots of money and may still be pulling in bucks.

awestruckchild
Aug 2nd 2008, 02:30 PM
I wonder what anyone thought of my previous post in here about how God can be relied upon and never changes and is steady and always acts the same.

It is not an arguing back and forth about verses and words but is a more.... being able to see how He will act from how He has acted previously.

To me, it is so easy to see, not by picking words apart, but by how I have come to known Him to be.

StevenC
Aug 2nd 2008, 07:46 PM
I wonder what anyone thought of my previous post in here about how God can be relied upon and never changes and is steady and always acts the same.

It is not an arguing back and forth about verses and words but is a more.... being able to see how He will act from how He has acted previously.

To me, it is so easy to see, not by picking words apart, but by how I have come to known Him to be.

Paintdiva,

In many parts of the world Christians are going through tribulation. Not because they are more wicked than us, or God loves them less, but simply because men are wicked. The end time is the pinnacle of man's rebellion against God and the Great Tribulation is simply a result of this.

I think it is understandable that we might wish to avoid this, or we think, surely God will not let us go through this, but I think we must remember that God does allow the wicked to be wicked and we must be firm in our faith no matter what happens.

-Steven

Mark F
Aug 2nd 2008, 11:31 PM
I am not trying to steal your comfort calidog. I too take comfort not in end times, but in knowing that my redeemer lives and though one day I will perish, I will see him again. (Job 19:25)

If you are willing or if another pre-trib believer is willing, I would still like to know of scripture that shows strong evidence of a rapture before the tribulation.

-Steven



Luke 21:34-36:
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”




Rev 3:10:
10 "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."



1 Thess 1:9-10:
9 "For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

575. apo
Search for G575 in KJVSL

apo apo apo'

a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various
senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):--(X here-)after,
ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of,
off, (up-)on(-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually
denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.


1 Thess 5:9-10:
9 "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him."


Romans 5:9:
9 "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him."

Joyfulparousia
Aug 3rd 2008, 11:43 AM
IMHO, the difficulty I see with Pre-trib is that your primary theologian is the author of the LB series. Some may argue that and say, no the other guy is the guy we like; but how many books has the "other guy" sold? Those books are not just a fictional bed-time story, but a theological statement written into an appealing storyline to attract youth.

Secondly, another thing I have observed is that the majority of congregations of pre-trib ministries and groups do not study the word for themselves. They take their pastor/leaders/teachers word for it and never look at the passages themselves. They are, in my opinion, given a false sense of security knowing that when all these things are about to come to pass, they will escape and not be faced with the greatest persecution and deception the world has ever seen.

We must realize the greatest challenge to believers in the end times is NOT persecution martyrdom. These things are already happening in the earth (i.e. the blessed persecuted church in China and Middle East countries). The greatest challenge, Paul and Jesus both make clear, is deception and love of believers growing cold.

We're preparing to take a physical beating, but to withstand the deception of Satan and Antichrist, and to have a love of the truth.

Joyfulparousia
Aug 3rd 2008, 11:55 AM
Luke 21:34-36:
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

The escaping all these things are the: carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life that Jesus just mentioned in verse 34; not the Great Tribulation.




Rev 3:10:
10 "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

How do pre-tribs assume that they are indeed these overcomers?




1 Thess 1:9-10:
9 "For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

He does deliver us from the wrath of God, but we are still subject to the wrath of Satan and Antichrist




1 Thess 5:9-10:
9 "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him."

He does deliver us from the wrath of God, but we are still subject to the wrath of Satan and Antichrist.



Romans 5:9:
9 "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him."

The context of this verse is talking about justification through the blood of Jesus and our gift of eternal salvation from the eternal wrath of God - the lake of fire. This verse is not talking about the rapture or the Second Coming.


These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev. 7:14

Blessings,

Kahtar
Aug 3rd 2008, 12:27 PM
IMHO, the difficulty I see with Pre-trib is that your primary theologian is the author of the LB series.
This is your first error. Who was my primary theologian 30 years before those stupid books came out? You are making general assumptions not based on factual information.



Secondly, another thing I have observed is that the majority of congregations of pre-trib ministries and groups do not study the word for themselves.
Another erroneous assumption. Most of the pretribs on here study quite abit. I have studied the Word for 40+ years.
They are, in my opinion, given a false sense of security knowing that when all these things are about to come to pass, they will escape and not be faced with the greatest persecution and deception the world has ever seen.
You really need to go back and read the rest of this thread...... But you are welcome to your opinions.

We must realize the greatest challenge to believers in the end times is NOT persecution martyrdom. These things are already happening in the earth (i.e. the blessed persecuted church in China and Middle East countries). The greatest challenge, Paul and Jesus both make clear, is deception and love of believers growing cold.

We're preparing to take a physical beating, but to withstand the deception of Satan and Antichrist, and to have a love of the truth.
This I'll go along with. Especially the 'love of the truth' part, as opposed to 'love of being right'. Loving truth requires being open to it, even if it does not line up with our current understanding. Being teachable.

awestruckchild
Aug 3rd 2008, 01:28 PM
Paintdiva,

In many parts of the world Christians are going through tribulation. Not because they are more wicked than us, or God loves them less, but simply because men are wicked. The end time is the pinnacle of man's rebellion against God and the Great Tribulation is simply a result of this.

I think it is understandable that we might wish to avoid this, or we think, surely God will not let us go through this, but I think we must remember that God does allow the wicked to be wicked and we must be firm in our faith no matter what happens.

-Steven

I was talking more about the pouring out of Gods wrath described in Revelation. And how He never changes and how He removed the righteous in those two instances before His wrath was poured out.

StevenC
Aug 4th 2008, 06:44 AM
Luke 21:34-36:
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”




Rev 3:10:
10 "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."



1 Thess 1:9-10:
9 "For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

575. apo
Search for G575 in KJVSL

apo apo apo'

a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various
senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):--(X here-)after,
ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of,
off, (up-)on(-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually
denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.


1 Thess 5:9-10:
9 "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him."


Romans 5:9:
9 "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him."

I see... Quite honestly I think its a stretch to suggest this is evidence of a "rapture." God said he'd deliver us, but he didn't say where. If we pray for food we don't expect him to deliver McDonald's too our door. We just hope for food in whatever form that may be, and if we are really hungry we won't be that picky. The same it will be in the end. We won't really care where he hides us, we will just be praying that he does.

-Steven

StevenC
Aug 4th 2008, 07:17 AM
This I'll go along with. Especially the 'love of the truth' part, as opposed to 'love of being right'. Loving truth requires being open to it, even if it does not line up with our current understanding. Being teachable.

Kahtar,

I believe you are a very wise man when it comes to understanding scripture. Another poster talked about pre-trib rapture in terms of God delivering us from harm, of that I have no doubt. Did he not deliver Isaiah too as the he was being sawed in half? Is he not the same God that delivered Jeremiah? I believe that he did deliver them both and Peter and Paul too as they were executed. I believe that God was with them and he did deliver them.

All I ask is that someone provide strong evidence of a pre-trib "rapture". I think we ought to be concerned with truth, but accepting that we may not know it all. Lack of evidence of rapture doesn't mean it can't happen, but we shouldn't talk about it like it is a certainty if its not the least bit certain. I am not saying God can't save us like he did Enoch, all I am saying is that it seems uncommon for him to do such a thing and without scriptural support I don't think we ought to be teaching it as if it is truth.

-Steven

awestruckchild
Aug 4th 2008, 10:50 AM
I've always looked at the two reapings described in Revelation kind of as proof. The first one descibed sounds like an angel. The second sounds like Jesus.Could be mistaken (prob am) but I thought it was somewhere around Rev3