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mikebr
Aug 1st 2008, 02:38 PM
I heard this the other day from Beth Moore (I didn't see here in the false teaching thread):D That both Calvinist and Arminians are correct in what they assert but both wrong in what they deny.

Any thoughts.

Me not Beth:

Calvinists assert that God can and deny that God wants to.
Arminians assert the God wants to and deny that God can.

I believe this is in line with what Beth said.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 1st 2008, 07:34 PM
I heard this the other day from Beth Moore (I didn't see here in the false teaching thread):D That both Calvinist and Arminians are correct in what they assert but both wrong in what they deny.

Any thoughts.

Me not Beth:

Calvinists assert that God can and deny that God wants to.
Arminians assert the God wants to and deny that God can.

I believe this is in line with what Beth said.

Yeah, that is simply a mischaracterization of both sides.

Lest we forget, Arminianism is an offshoot from Calvinism - thus, both affirm the sovereignty of God, but both affirm this sovereignty in different ways.

Thus, the Arminian will say that God could choose if He wanted to, yet chooses not to choose and instead leaves the choice up to the individual. Calvinism, alternatively, teaches that God can and does choose, but also desires to display His justice as well as His grace (as both will feed into His glory). It takes the emphasis of salvation off of mankind and places it on God's glory.

Brother Mark
Aug 1st 2008, 11:23 PM
Yeah, that is simply a mischaracterization of both sides.

I agree.


Lest we forget, Arminianism is an offshoot from Calvinism - thus, both affirm the sovereignty of God, but both affirm this sovereignty in different ways.

Thus, the Arminian will say that God could choose if He wanted to, yet chooses not to choose and instead leaves the choice up to the individual. Calvinism, alternatively, teaches that God can and does choose, but also desires to display His justice as well as His grace (as both will feed into His glory). It takes the emphasis of salvation off of mankind and places it on God's glory.


The arminian as well places salvation on God and His glory. We are completely and totally saved through God's efforts. God is glorified (revealed) through his ways. The way of salvation glorifies Him in that it reveals his character. God is glorified in allowing man to choose to come to Him when God enables Him to choose.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 2nd 2008, 01:43 AM
Yeah, that is simply a mischaracterization of both sides.

Lest we forget, Arminianism is an offshoot from Calvinism - thus, both affirm the sovereignty of God, but both affirm this sovereignty in different ways.

Thus, the Arminian will say that God could choose if He wanted to, yet chooses not to choose and instead leaves the choice up to the individual. Calvinism, alternatively, teaches that God can and does choose, but also desires to display His justice as well as His grace (as both will feed into His glory). It takes the emphasis of salvation off of mankind and places it on God's glory.

This probably has nothing to do with the conversation but I thought to throw this out there.

And Calvinsim (Protestant) is an offshoot of RCC...;)

Redeemed by Grace
Aug 2nd 2008, 12:58 PM
This probably has nothing to do with the conversation but I thought to throw this out there.

And Calvinsim (Protestant) is an offshoot of RCC...;)


You are right! :lol:

Redeemed by Grace
Aug 2nd 2008, 01:12 PM
I agree.




The arminian as well places salvation on God and His glory. We are completely and totally saved through God's efforts. God is glorified (revealed) through his ways. The way of salvation glorifies Him in that it reveals his character. God is glorified in allowing man to choose to come to Him when God enables Him to choose.

Can you define enable a bit to clarify?

The questions I have are this: Does enable mean capable? Does it mean enacted? If so does it include desire? Does God give equal enablement or enacted to everyone? If equal enablement or being enacted is given to all men, what makes one person choose and another not choose, seeing that they both have been enabled or enacted? Or I can be missing your definition intent all-together.... :)

Your reply just had me thinking and just interested in how you define enable...


Thanks brother.

RogerW
Aug 2nd 2008, 02:33 PM
I agree.
The arminian as well places salvation on God and His glory. We are completely and totally saved through God's efforts. God is glorified (revealed) through his ways. The way of salvation glorifies Him in that it reveals his character. God is glorified in allowing man to choose to come to Him when God enables Him to choose.


Can you define enable a bit to clarify?

The questions I have are this: Does enable mean capable? Does it mean enacted? If so does it include desire? Does God give equal enablement or enacted to everyone? If equal enablement or being enacted is given to all men, what makes one person choose and another not choose, seeing that they both have been enabled or enacted? Or I can be missing your definition intent all-together.... :)

Your reply just had me thinking and just interested in how you define enable...

Thanks brother.

Hmmm, like-mindedness Rbg. I was thinking along the same line. Wondering, since God must enable before one will choose Him, does it not stand to reason that salvation is of God, by God, through God, for God?

Many Blessings,
RW

Brother Mark
Aug 2nd 2008, 11:51 PM
Hmmm, like-mindedness Rbg. I was thinking along the same line. Wondering, since God must enable before one will choose Him, does it not stand to reason that salvation is of God, by God, through God, for God?

Many Blessings,
RW

Yes it does stand to reason that.

Brother Mark
Aug 2nd 2008, 11:55 PM
Can you define enable a bit to clarify?

The questions I have are this: Does enable mean capable? Does it mean enacted? If so does it include desire? Does God give equal enablement or enacted to everyone? If equal enablement or being enacted is given to all men, what makes one person choose and another not choose, seeing that they both have been enabled or enacted? Or I can be missing your definition intent all-together.... :)

Your reply just had me thinking and just interested in how you define enable...


Thanks brother.

I would only define it with scripture.

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
NASB

and

Rom 1:18-21

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
NASB

Redeemed by Grace
Aug 3rd 2008, 12:36 AM
I would only define it with scripture.

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
NASB

and

Rom 1:18-21

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
NASB



So if I take a literal contextual read to scripture you are using, you are saying that Arminians believe the same as the Calvinist? That God draws those He has called?

Brother Mark
Aug 3rd 2008, 12:53 AM
So if I take a literal contextual read to scripture you are using, you are saying that Arminians believe the same as the Calvinist? That God draws those He has called?

Obviously, calvinist and arminians don't believe the same.

Redeemed by Grace
Aug 3rd 2008, 01:27 AM
Obviously, calvinist and arminians don't believe the same.

Yea, that is what has me confused... but by what you are writing, I see you are saying that God elects...ie

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


So, with your first response, you defined your armininism with "...God enables", for which to me, shows that it's God who "picks", and not man who chooses.... which brings both sides to the same statement, IMO.

Brother Mark
Aug 3rd 2008, 01:36 AM
Yea, that is what has me confused... but by what you are writing, I see you are saying that God elects...ie

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


So, with your first response, you defined your armininism with "...God enables", for which to me, shows that it's God who "picks", and not man who chooses.... which brings both sides to the same statement, IMO.

God enables all men to come to Him but not all men come to Him. Romans 1 is where God provided an inner call to men by placing the truth within them but they rejected that truth.

It is a misclassification to say that arminians teach salvation is of men. They don't. They teach that no man can come to God except that God draws Him and enables him.

Rom 1:18-19

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
NASB

God makes the truth evident within men.

Redeemed by Grace
Aug 3rd 2008, 01:54 AM
God enables all men to come to Him but not all men come to Him. Romans 1 is where God provided an inner call to men by placing the truth within them but they rejected that truth.

OK then, if just an inner call, define that call, is it the same call to every man, and why or how does one man come and not the other?



It is a misclassification to say that arminians teach salvation is of men. They don't. They teach that no man can come to God except that God draws Him and enables him.

Ahh... I see how you are trying to use this now... First of all, my question falls with man's choice and not 'that arminians teach salvation is of men'... So we can take this off the table for I don't see this within their doctrine either.


So back to the enablment part... How so?



Rom 1:18-19

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
NASB

God makes the truth evident within men.




Context of Roman's 1 drives towards those who remain reprobate, particularly towards the last days. So you say that God makes the truth evident within men... are you referring to that there is a God, or that Jesus is the Son of God, or what truth do you mean and is knowing the truth enough?

Brother Mark
Aug 3rd 2008, 02:10 AM
Context of Roman's 1 drives towards those who remain reprobate, particularly towards the last days. So you say that God makes the truth evident within men... are you referring to that there is a God, or that Jesus is the Son of God, or what truth do you mean and is knowing the truth enough?

Not remain reprobate, but became reprobate. As for what knowledge God makes the truth evident within them, it would seem to be enough so that they are without excuse. For the knowledge God was referring to is his Godhead.

Rom 1:20-23
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
NASB

As the KJV says...

Rom 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead
NKJV

And they become reprobate because they do not see fit to acknowledge God.

Rom 1:28

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind
NASB

Redeemed by Grace
Aug 3rd 2008, 03:27 AM
Not remain reprobate, but became reprobate. As for what knowledge God makes the truth evident within them, it would seem to be enough so that they are without excuse. For the knowledge God was referring to is his Godhead.

Rom 1:20-23
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
NASB

As the KJV says...

Rom 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead
NKJV

And they become reprobate because they do not see fit to acknowledge God.

Rom 1:28

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind
NASB


Does man start out reprobate or does man start out non-reprobate? If we are going to visit Romans 1, we need to explore the condition of man and sin... So does man become reprobate or does God leave some reprobate and save others?