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White Spider
Aug 1st 2008, 11:20 PM
Predestined or Not?

I know this is a confusing circular argument, but bare with me.


Are our lives predestined by God since before time or were we created and given the ability to choose our own paths?

Do we create our own destiny, or do we have a chosen destiny.

I'll start with this and let you all give me some feed back before I get into some of the more controversial issues of this topic.

BrckBrln
Aug 1st 2008, 11:25 PM
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

I believe what this passage, and others like it, says. God chooses us. We are predestined. And it was all due to the good pleasure of His will.

9Marksfan
Aug 1st 2008, 11:41 PM
Amen! But on the other hand, Scripture teaches that we are all responsible beings and that no one can shake their fist at God on the last day and say "It's because of YOU I'm in Hell! Because YOU didn't predestine me!"

Every individual in hell is there by their own choosing.
Every individual in heaven is there by God's choosing - and their own!

fewarechosen
Aug 1st 2008, 11:54 PM
time does not exist to god, he made time, but he himself is not subject to it.

we had free will, but god knew our choices before we picked them, not his fault for knowing everything we were still free to do what we wanted. then he put us in whatever place would carry out his plan.

dont mistake predestined in scripturre to mean we were predestined meaning it was god basically forcing us to sin, saying hey i predestined these to life but these to burn in hell - then we would not have free will and everything would be pointless cause god would be controlling our actions.

we are predestined in that god understood what we were going to do before we did it because time is only relative to us. we tend to think in terms of before and after because we are human, but god is outside of time and not subject to it, god is what time is inside of.

9Marksfan
Aug 2nd 2008, 12:09 AM
time does not exist to god, he made time, but he himself is not subject to it.

True - but the word predestined conveys clearly that God destined us to be His people before time began - eternity is linear, like time - it has points along the way, although it has no beginning or end like time.


we had free will, but god knew our choices before we picked them, not his fault for knowing everything we were still free to do what we wanted. then he put us in whatever place would carry out his plan.

dont mistake predestined in scripturre to mean we were predestined meaning it was god basically forcing us to sin, saying hey i predestined these to life but these to burn in hell - then we would not have free will and everything would be pointless cause god would be controlling our actions.

Why is God controling actions a pointless thing, when He does it for Hios glory and the good of His people?


we are predestined in that god understood what we were going to do before we did it because time is only relative to us. we tend to think in terms of before and after because we are human, but god is outside of time and not subject to it, god is what time is inside of.

God thinks in before and after mode too! If God only knew what choice we would make, He didn't predestine anyone.....no need to! They destined themselves!

fewarechosen
Aug 2nd 2008, 12:32 AM
True - but the word predestined conveys clearly that God destined us to be His people before time began - eternity is linear, like time - it has points along the way, although it has no beginning or end like time.



Why is God controling actions a pointless thing, when He does it for Hios glory and the good of His people?



God thinks in before and after mode too! If God only knew what choice we would make, He didn't predestine anyone.....no need to! They destined themselves!

if god is controlling our actions then he is forcing us to sin. god wouldnt do that we are made in his image not made as slaves. he did not make people and say i will make these to commit sin, he gave us the option to sin and knew what we would choose before we did yet its still our choice, then out of those he chose who he would, that is how they are predestined

and sorry but god doesnt think in before or after, he only applys before and after to us, he knows how it all plays out. eternity in gods terms is not a timeline, he made time hes not subject to it, thats why no before or after, we think in terms of time because we are subject to it. god is not resting in time time is resting in god.

White Spider
Aug 2nd 2008, 01:42 AM
time does not exist to god, he made time, but he himself is not subject to it.

we had free will, but god knew our choices before we picked them, not his fault for knowing everything we were still free to do what we wanted. then he put us in whatever place would carry out his plan.

dont mistake predestined in scripturre to mean we were predestined meaning it was god basically forcing us to sin, saying hey i predestined these to life but these to burn in hell - then we would not have free will and everything would be pointless cause god would be controlling our actions.

we are predestined in that god understood what we were going to do before we did it because time is only relative to us. we tend to think in terms of before and after because we are human, but god is outside of time and not subject to it, god is what time is inside of.


if god is controlling our actions then he is forcing us to sin. god wouldnt do that we are made in his image not made as slaves. he did not make people and say i will make these to commit sin, he gave us the option to sin and knew what we would choose before we did yet its still our choice, then out of those he chose who he would, that is how they are predestined

and sorry but god doesnt think in before or after, he only applys before and after to us, he knows how it all plays out. eternity in gods terms is not a timeline, he made time hes not subject to it, thats why no before or after, we think in terms of time because we are subject to it. god is not resting in time time is resting in god.

This is in the ball park of how I feel.

It seems to me predestined in it's modern definition changes what was originally meant . . . (whatever that may be.)

I feel God knows our choices, therefore our lives are destined to be a certain way, but we still choose that destiny. It's simply that God knows the future, but He Himself did not choose our paths for us. He simply knows what path we will take.

Hope that makes sense . . . sure doesn't to me ;)

moonglow
Aug 2nd 2008, 02:28 AM
Ephesians 1:3-6

Redemption in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament (http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=eph&chapter=001)
Verse 5
Having foreordained us into adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Under Eph. 1:4, it was noted that the phrase "in love" may logically be referred to this verse also, as in the RSV. The KJV, English Revised Version (1885), and RSV use three different words for the action described in this verse, as follows:

"He predestinated us ..." (KJV).

"Having foreordained us ..." (English Revised Version)

"He destined us in love to be his sons through Christ" (RSV)

Theologians have tried for ages to make something hard out of predestination; but the meaning is not difficult. God designed the whole creation to accomplish the fulfillment of the plan which existed before creation. That is a simple definition of it. It applies to human beings, planets, galaxies, everything God ever made. Regarding people, God's purpose in creating man was that he might become a Son of God through Jesus Christ. That is the destiny God intended for every man ever born on earth. Stars and galaxies may not oppose or thwart their intended destiny; but with people, there is another factor, the freedom of the human will, enabling people to hinder or even prevent the fulfillment of God's purposes in their lives. For further study of this, see my Commentary on Romans, Rom. 8:29.

The subjects related to this verse are commented upon much more extensively in Romans than will be necessary here; but one primary truth should be reiterated, namely that God in designing the creation of man with the express purpose of making people his sons through Christ would most certainly not have created people in such a manner that the highest happiness of them could be achieved in the service of Satan rather than in the service of himself!

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In Adam Clark's bible commentary he says this is meant for the Gentiles..while the Jews were called first, God knew they would reject Jesus (not all but many) and we would be called next..also. In other words it was meant to be the Gentiles would be called.

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=eph&chapter=001
Verse 5. Having predestinated us
προορισας. As the doctrine of eternal predestination has produced much controversy in the Christian world, it may be necessary to examine the meaning of the term, that those who do use it may employ it according to the sense it has in the oracles of God.

The verb προοπζω, from προ, before, and οριζω, I define, finish, bound, or terminate, whence ορος, a boundary or limit, signifies to define beforehand, and circumscribe by certain bounds or limits; and is originally a geographical term, but applied also to any thing concluded, or determined, or demonstrated.

Here the word is used to point out God's fixed purpose or predetermination to bestow on the Gentiles the blessing of the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ, which adoption had been before granted to the Jewish people; and without circumcision, or any other Mosaic rite, to admit the Gentiles to all the privileges of his Church and people. And the apostle marks that all this was fore-determined by God, as he had fore-determined the bounds and precincts of the land which he gave them according to the promise made to their fathers; that the Jews had no reason to complain, for God had formed this purpose before he had given the law, or called them out of Egypt; (for it was before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4;) and that, therefore, the conduct of God in calling the Gentiles now-bringing them into his Church, and conferring on them the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit, was in pursuance of his original design; and, if he did not do so, his eternal purposes could not be fulfilled; and that, as the Jews were taken to be his peculiar people, not because they had any goodness or merit in themselves; so the Gentiles were called, (more at the link)
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This whole being chosen has been seen in the wrong light I think..I mean look at it this way...you aren't a Christian..so then what? you aren't predestined? But then later you become a Christian..so then you are suddenly predestined? I am not good at explaining this that is why I used these two bible commentaries and I hope they are seriously considered. The bible tells us when Jesus was lifted up on the cross He would draw ALL men to Him. It doesn't say just some..or a few..but all.

God bless

quiet dove
Aug 2nd 2008, 03:42 AM
Predestined or Not?

I know this is a confusing circular argument, but bare with me.


Are our lives predestined by God since before time or were we created and given the ability to choose our own paths?

Do we create our own destiny, or do we have a chosen destiny.

I'll start with this and let you all give me some feed back before I get into some of the more controversial issues of this topic.


I think anyone who has lived enough years, or had enough experiences maybe I should say, of making choices without having first sought God's will, can tell you, we make our own choices. And we are much wiser for having sought God's will before as opposed to after.

Think about it, how many wrong decisions have you made, not you personally here but you know what I mean, all of us. God tells us in the Bible that the Holy Spirit will convict of sin, then of course hopefully the man will repent. There is no way we could or would choose God because we are fallen creatures, and He is righteous, holy. Something that without the Holy Spirits conviction upon our hearts we would just skip marrily along our way thinking how wonderful we are. We often need a knock on the knoggin to get our attention to the real reality of things. And God loves us enough to conk us one when we need it.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 2nd 2008, 03:44 AM
Amen! But on the other hand, Scripture teaches that we are all responsible beings and that no one can shake their fist at God on the last day and say "It's because of YOU I'm in Hell! Because YOU didn't predestine me!"

Every individual in hell is there by their own choosing.
Every individual in heaven is there by God's choosing - and their own!

That's what I love about Calvin. He openly admits that God has elected people to salvation, yet somehow there is a 'choice' involved (if it can be called that). In other words, though we are predestined, we still choose Him (though we cannot help but to choose Him since grace is irresistible).

quiet dove
Aug 2nd 2008, 03:48 AM
That's what I love about Calvin. He openly admits that God has elected people to salvation, yet somehow there is a 'choice' involved (if it can be called that). In other words, though we are predestined, we still choose Him (though we cannot help but to choose Him since grace is irresistible).

I agree that grace is irresistible, but yet how many people stomp all all over it.

fewarechosen
Aug 2nd 2008, 04:32 AM
our choice is involved also.

christ died for all of mankind not just his chosen

look at this scripture

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

here is our choice in a nutshell, god is not willing that any should perish. some wording makes it sound like god created a bunch of people and then destined some to hell and others to life, thats not the case.

he wants all to come to repentance - but hes not forcing anyone.

he knows your choices before you made them, out of that he chose who he would, for whatever reason he wanted, then set them in a place where he wanted, giving them what he wanted.

if we had no choice - then dont you think if god was not willing that any should perish then that would be the case and none would be lost ?

he gave us free will, he gave us a choice, but understand he knows what we choose before we do.

we see time like this

-----------------------------------

now take that time line and turn it left to right 90 degrees on the horizontal plane

god sees time like this . hes looking down the whole thing at once.

he is not waiting for things to unfold, inside him all has unfolded we just havent got to that point yet, thats why he can say this is gonna happen in the future, cause he knows. hes not subject to time hes not waiting for anything to happen - we are

White Spider
Aug 2nd 2008, 06:11 AM
It seems most of us agree on the matter that we are not "predestined" in the sense God makes our choices for us, nor does he choose whether we go to Heaven or Hell. He simply knows our paths as He is the All-Knowing-God.

He allows us the choice, and gives us help along the way, a "conk".

But we are in full control of our own destinies and maintain responsibility for our actions as they are fully our own actions.

He chose us to be sons of God through Christ in the sense a Christian parent would choose their children to follow in Christ, but that does not mean we will be sons of God as it does not mean the children will be Christians.

And if you spin around 3 times really fast and read that backwards, it might make more sense . . . :yes:

apothanein kerdos
Aug 2nd 2008, 01:46 PM
It seems most of us agree on the matter that we are not "predestined" in the sense God makes our choices for us, nor does he choose whether we go to Heaven or Hell. He simply knows our paths as He is the All-Knowing-God.

He allows us the choice, and gives us help along the way, a "conk".

But we are in full control of our own destinies and maintain responsibility for our actions as they are fully our own actions.

He chose us to be sons of God through Christ in the sense a Christian parent would choose their children to follow in Christ, but that does not mean we will be sons of God as it does not mean the children will be Christians.

And if you spin around 3 times really fast and read that backwards, it might make more sense . . . :yes:

I actually do believe that it is God that predestines us, yet we do somehow have a role in it. I also do not believe we are in control of our own destinies, but instead God will guide His elect to His ultimate end - imagine bowling with bumpers; we have some room to move, but He will put us back on track.

Revinius
Aug 2nd 2008, 04:55 PM
As i specified in the other thread, we tread dangerous ground when we take any kind of authority from God and claim it as our own. God does indeed exist outside of time, but i think relegating Him to only 'knowing our choices' is a belittling take on the whole scope of what God is. Also, to use the age old excuse of liberality to claim that we have somehow misunderstood the Word because modern meanings for words changes is a little intellectually dishonest to say the least.

We in our perspective do indeed have some level of choice... but in the scheme of things it is God and only God that elects and saves. In our fallen state do you think we are in any way capable of reaching out and grasping the hand of God unless he first enables us to do so?

This thread will no doubt shed little light in solving this age old question. What seems to be two completely opposing scriptorial claims live in harmony together within scriptures pages. Perhaps this (like with the incomprehensibility of the Trinity) only shows to highlight the limitations of logic and reason when placed against the perfectly unpredictable variable that is God.

White Spider
Aug 2nd 2008, 05:42 PM
I actually do believe that it is God that predestines us, yet we do somehow have a role in it. I also do not believe we are in control of our own destinies, but instead God will guide His elect to His ultimate end - imagine bowling with bumpers; we have some room to move, but He will put us back on track.

In going this far it makes me nothing but a toy, and suggests God chose who would go to Heaven and who would go to Hell. In which case it becomes God's fault if one ends up in Hell.

I do not believe it's God's fault. He loves us all and would not choose any of us got to Hell, in my opinion.

What you are saying is we were rolled down the bowling lane to Heaven, even if we steer off towards Hell we get redirected to Heaven as it's our destiny.

You are also suggesting many are rolled down the bowling lane to Hell and even if they steer off in the direction of Heaven they will end up in Hell as it's their destiny.

I strongly disagree that my going to Heaven is because God chose me, it's because I chose Him. He is there for all of us and we must choose Him. Not the other way around.

"Everything is in God's hands, but that doesn't mean He has a hand in everything."

White Spider
Aug 2nd 2008, 05:53 PM
As i specified in the other thread, we tread dangerous ground when we take any kind of authority from God and claim it as our own. God does indeed exist outside of time, but i think relegating Him to only 'knowing our choices' is a belittling take on the whole scope of what God is. Also, to use the age old excuse of liberality to claim that we have somehow misunderstood the Word because modern meanings for words changes is a little intellectually dishonest to say the least.

We in our perspective do indeed have some level of choice... but in the scheme of things it is God and only God that elects and saves. In our fallen state do you think we are in any way capable of reaching out and grasping the hand of God unless he first enables us to do so?

This thread will no doubt shed little light in solving this age old question. What seems to be two completely opposing scriptorial claims live in harmony together within scriptures pages. Perhaps this (like with the incomprehensibility of the Trinity) only shows to highlight the limitations of logic and reason when placed against the perfectly unpredictable variable that is God.

He does reach out to us, but He does not choose us in the sense of saying you all go to Heaven, and you all go to Hell.

He offers us a gift, we must take it and unwrap.

He does not tie us up and force us to accept the gift.

Again you take it so far as making it seem we have very little choice in life. If we were chosen we will go to heaven, if we were not, well despite all God's love for us he had to keep the teams even right, we didn't make the cut, sorry, go burn in Hell because God predestined you in all His love towards you to spend eternity tortured.

Reasoning like that personally changes who God is to me, everything the Bible says God is is no longer true if I accept this belief. God is not God if He can predestine His own creation whom He loves so much to Hell. Where is the grace of God in this?

Did He choose us in love to go to heaven.

And choose them in hate or anger to go to Hell? Or was it in love He sent them to Hell?

BrckBrln
Aug 2nd 2008, 06:32 PM
I strongly disagree that my going to Heaven is because God chose me, it's because I chose Him.

What do you make of this passage, then?

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

apothanein kerdos
Aug 2nd 2008, 06:44 PM
What do you make of this passage, then?

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6


That was going to be my response - so that shall suffice as my response. :)


One thing to add: It's not God's fault that someone ends up in Hell. People go there by their own choice. We are so fallen that without Christ we would rather prefer Hell over God because we hate Him.

fewarechosen
Aug 2nd 2008, 07:03 PM
As i specified in the other thread, we tread dangerous ground when we take any kind of authority from God and claim it as our own. God does indeed exist outside of time, but i think relegating Him to only 'knowing our choices' is a belittling take on the whole scope of what God is. Also, to use the age old excuse of liberality to claim that we have somehow misunderstood the Word because modern meanings for words changes is a little intellectually dishonest to say the least.

We in our perspective do indeed have some level of choice... but in the scheme of things it is God and only God that elects and saves. In our fallen state do you think we are in any way capable of reaching out and grasping the hand of God unless he first enables us to do so?

This thread will no doubt shed little light in solving this age old question. What seems to be two completely opposing scriptorial claims live in harmony together within scriptures pages. Perhaps this (like with the incomprehensibility of the Trinity) only shows to highlight the limitations of logic and reason when placed against the perfectly unpredictable variable that is God.

he doesnt only know our choices. remember we did not choose god he chose us, but he knew us before we knew ourselves. he knew our hearts, knows how we would react all that stuff, he gauged all that however he saw fit. i dont claim to know why god chose anyone only he knows that, but he knew everything in our hearts before we did.

imagine a sea of people all unable to choose god, then out of those god picks who he wants and gives them the ability to choose him.

but remember god is not willing that any would be lost, so there in is our choice.

so he did not predestine some for hell and some for life without us being involved, we are made in his image

fewarechosen
Aug 2nd 2008, 07:08 PM
white spider here is some scripture that might help too

John 15:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=16&version=9&context=verse)
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you

so keep that in mind :)

9Marksfan
Aug 2nd 2008, 10:14 PM
if god is controlling our actions then he is forcing us to sin.

No - are you saying God is NOT in control of His universe? That He does not PERMIT people to do whatever will further His purposes? Or are WE or SATAN in control?!?


god wouldnt do that we are made in his image not made as slaves.

But are we not slaves to sin in our natural state? Doesn't Scripture teach that?


he did not make people and say i will make these to commit sin, he gave us the option to sin and knew what we would choose before we did yet its still our choice,

Agreed, as far as Adam is concerned - but since the Fall, we are only capable of choosing sin.


then out of those he chose who he would, that is how they are predestined

Amen!


and sorry but god doesnt think in before or after, he only applys before and after to us,

In an absolute sense, yes - it's ALL before to Him!


he knows how it all plays out. eternity in gods terms is not a timeline,

No - it is - think about it - there was a time in eternity BEFORE Jesus took on flesh and lived here - eternity was running in parallel with time until He returned in glory! He is presently appearing on our behalf, living to intercede for us, and there will be a point in eternity when He will return for us.


he made time hes not subject to it, thats why no before or after, we think in terms of time because we are subject to it. god is not resting in time time is resting in god.

Yes - He makes time serve His purposes - but He works WITHIN it - as He works in and through His creation.

9Marksfan
Aug 2nd 2008, 10:17 PM
This is in the ball park of how I feel.

It seems to me predestined in it's modern definition changes what was originally meant . . . (whatever that may be.)

What do you mean by that?


I feel God knows our choices, therefore our lives are destined to be a certain way, but we still choose that destiny. It's simply that God knows the future, but He Himself did not choose our paths for us. He simply knows what path we will take.

Hope that makes sense . . . sure doesn't to me ;)

No, it doesn't make any sense - that is a deist approach - not what the Bible teaches - God DOES choose our paths for us - and He chooses a people for Himself - and as a result, we ALSO choose Him! :pp

9Marksfan
Aug 2nd 2008, 10:28 PM
Ephesians 1:3-6

Redemption in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament (http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=eph&chapter=001)
Verse 5
Having foreordained us into adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Under Eph. 1:4, it was noted that the phrase "in love" may logically be referred to this verse also, as in the RSV. The KJV, English Revised Version (1885), and RSV use three different words for the action described in this verse, as follows:

"He predestinated us ..." (KJV).

"Having foreordained us ..." (English Revised Version)

"He destined us in love to be his sons through Christ" (RSV)

Theologians have tried for ages to make something hard out of predestination; but the meaning is not difficult. God designed the whole creation to accomplish the fulfillment of the plan which existed before creation. That is a simple definition of it. It applies to human beings, planets, galaxies, everything God ever made. Regarding people, God's purpose in creating man was that he might become a Son of God through Jesus Christ. That is the destiny God intended for every man ever born on earth. Stars and galaxies may not oppose or thwart their intended destiny; but with people, there is another factor, the freedom of the human will, enabling people to hinder or even prevent the fulfillment of God's purposes in their lives. For further study of this, see my Commentary on Romans, Rom. 8:29.

The subjects related to this verse are commented upon much more extensively in Romans than will be necessary here; but one primary truth should be reiterated, namely that God in designing the creation of man with the express purpose of making people his sons through Christ would most certainly not have created people in such a manner that the highest happiness of them could be achieved in the service of Satan rather than in the service of himself!

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In Adam Clark's bible commentary he says this is meant for the Gentiles..while the Jews were called first, God knew they would reject Jesus (not all but many) and we would be called next..also. In other words it was meant to be the Gentiles would be called.

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=eph&chapter=001
Verse 5. Having predestinated us
προορισας. As the doctrine of eternal predestination has produced much controversy in the Christian world, it may be necessary to examine the meaning of the term, that those who do use it may employ it according to the sense it has in the oracles of God.

The verb προοπζω, from προ, before, and οριζω, I define, finish, bound, or terminate, whence ορος, a boundary or limit, signifies to define beforehand, and circumscribe by certain bounds or limits; and is originally a geographical term, but applied also to any thing concluded, or determined, or demonstrated.

Here the word is used to point out God's fixed purpose or predetermination to bestow on the Gentiles the blessing of the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ,

So all the Ephesians were Gentiles, then? Strange how the letter speaks of the unity between Jews and Gentiles - and Peter writes to beleiving Jews in his first letter and describes them as "elect".


which adoption had been before granted to the Jewish people;

This is extremely faulty theology and has nothing to do with the NT doctrine of adoption of believing Jews AND Gentiles - both chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world.


and without circumcision, or any other Mosaic rite, to admit the Gentiles to all the privileges of his Church and people. And the apostle marks that all this was fore-determined by God,

No - it's not just the blessings that were predestined (although undoubtedly they were) but the language here and elsewhere makes it clear that believers themselves were chosen and predestined by God Himself.


as he had fore-determined the bounds and precincts of the land which he gave them according to the promise made to their fathers; that the Jews had no reason to complain, for God had formed this purpose before he had given the law, or called them out of Egypt; (for it was before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4;) and that, therefore, the conduct of God in calling the Gentiles now-bringing them into his Church, and conferring on them the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit, was in pursuance of his original design; and, if he did not do so, his eternal purposes could not be fulfilled; and that, as the Jews were taken to be his peculiar people, not because they had any goodness or merit in themselves; so the Gentiles were called, (more at the link)

This is correct - but it's not the whole truth.


************************************************** *****
This whole being chosen has been seen in the wrong light I think..I mean look at it this way...you aren't a Christian..so then what? you aren't predestined? But then later you become a Christian..so then you are suddenly predestined?

No - you start to show you've been predestined!


I am not good at explaining this that is why I used these two bible commentaries and I hope they are seriously considered. The bible tells us when Jesus was lifted up on the cross He would draw ALL men to Him. It doesn't say just some..or a few..but all.

God bless

So are you a universalist? Remember, the word "all" does not always mean "every" in NT Greek.

9Marksfan
Aug 2nd 2008, 10:30 PM
That's what I love about Calvin. He openly admits that God has elected people to salvation, yet somehow there is a 'choice' involved (if it can be called that). In other words, though we are predestined, we still choose Him (though we cannot help but to choose Him since grace is irresistible).

Correct - both are true - two sides of the same coin which we won't fully understand until eternity....

9Marksfan
Aug 2nd 2008, 10:31 PM
I agree that grace is irresistible, but yet how many people stomp all all over it.

Indeed - including all of us for long enough before we found it irresistible!

9Marksfan
Aug 2nd 2008, 10:36 PM
our choice is involved also.

christ died for all of mankind not just his chosen

look at this scripture

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

here is our choice in a nutshell, god is not willing that any should perish. some wording makes it sound like god created a bunch of people and then destined some to hell and others to life, thats not the case.

he wants all to come to repentance - but hes not forcing anyone.

he knows your choices before you made them, out of that he chose who he would, for whatever reason he wanted, then set them in a place where he wanted, giving them what he wanted.

if we had no choice - then dont you think if god was not willing that any should perish then that would be the case and none would be lost ?

he gave us free will, he gave us a choice, but understand he knows what we choose before we do.

we see time like this

-----------------------------------

now take that time line and turn it left to right 90 degrees on the horizontal plane

god sees time like this . hes looking down the whole thing at once.

he is not waiting for things to unfold, inside him all has unfolded we just havent got to that point yet, thats why he can say this is gonna happen in the future, cause he knows. hes not subject to time hes not waiting for anything to happen - we are

But God persistently tels us in His word that He is BEFORE all things - and that He planned things BEFORE the foundation of the world - He's not just above time, watching what we'll do and saying "Hey, those clever people who chose me - they're my chosen because they exercised their free will!" No - that's NOT predestination - that's SELF-destination - and it's NOT the biblical picture of God's role in salvation.

Yes, God WANTS all to come to repentance - but He knows that all won't and in His wisdom He leaves it that way - great mystery...

9Marksfan
Aug 2nd 2008, 10:49 PM
It seems most of us agree on the matter that we are not "predestined" in the sense God makes our choices for us, nor does he choose whether we go to Heaven or Hell. He simply knows our paths as He is the All-Knowing-God.

I don't believe this - and neither have countless Christians that have believed the Reformed faith down through the centuries - right up to the present day! God chooses a people for Himself - had he not done so, NONE of us would have ever chosen Him because we love sin - NOT GOD! He MUST change our hearts first before we will ever choose Him!


He allows us the choice, and gives us help along the way, a "conk".

No - He knows we are dead in trespasses and sins and need to be made alive in Christ - spiritually deaf and blind - and He gives us ears to hear and enlightens us with spiritual sight! :pp


But we are in full control of our own destinies

No - we are slaves to sin and in the grip of Satan - we CANNOT free ourselves - GOD has to do that!


and maintain responsibility for our actions as they are fully our own actions.

So your decision to believe in Christ was nothing to do with God enabling you? You took that decision entirely independently of Him?


He chose us to be sons of God through Christ in the sense a Christian parent would choose their children to follow in Christ, but that does not mean we will be sons of God as it does not mean the children will be Christians.

No - Peter says that God caused us to be born again (1 Pet 1:3) and James says that God brought us forth (ie caused us to be born again) of HIS own will (Jas 1:18) - so we are His children spiritually just like we are our parents' children naturally - no decision of ours needed! Entirely up the parent(s) to give us life!


And if you spin around 3 times really fast and read that backwards, it might make more sense . . . :yes:

Bottom line - we choose God because He chose us - NOT the other way round.

9Marksfan
Aug 2nd 2008, 10:49 PM
I actually do believe that it is God that predestines us, yet we do somehow have a role in it. I also do not believe we are in control of our own destinies, but instead God will guide His elect to His ultimate end - imagine bowling with bumpers; we have some room to move, but He will put us back on track.

Well said - excellent analogy!

White Spider
Aug 2nd 2008, 11:01 PM
What do you make of this passage, then?

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

I can't quite explain it, tried typing it out but it's not working.

But perhaps reversing this will help you understand my feelings.


Cursed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has cursed us with every spiritual curse in the depths of Hell in Satan, just as He chose us in Satan before the foundation of the world, that we should be unholy and with blame before Him in hate, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Satan, according to the evil nature of His will, to the curse of the evil of His hatred, by which He made us unaccepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

If I did not choose God, but He chose me, then this above verse, in all it's ridiculousness and utter BS, is also true.

I think we both know it's anything and everything but true.

If God chose me and I have no role in getting myself to heaven I am just a puppet in a play. None of this matters, the world, people, a conscious, morals, any of it. We are tied to strings, with an Almighty Master making us move, making us do what we do. Why should I repent, God made me commit the sin. God is controlling me. He chose me to be wicked. I did not commit a sin, God made me. In fact I am not me, I don't even exist. I am a puppet, an object that has no free will, has no say in what I do. I think I have choice because God my puppeteer is making me think I can think, but really I can't. I am nothing, I don't exist, I shouldn't even say "I" as there is no I. There is nothing.

You can read several good books on all of this, it's called philosophy and it all comes back to I exist, I have choice, I am in control of me.

(And most great philosophers do believe in God)

White Spider
Aug 2nd 2008, 11:08 PM
What do you mean by that?

I mean I feel the way we interpret it is wrong . . .


No, it doesn't make any sense - that is a deist approach - not what the Bible teaches - God DOES choose our paths for us - and He chooses a people for Himself - and as a result, we ALSO choose Him! :pp

If He chooses us, how do we also choose Him, we only choose Him because He chose us, but if He did not choose us we can not choose Him. Therefore we had no choice, we were forced to choose him, like a puppet. Read my post below this one.

BrckBrln
Aug 2nd 2008, 11:10 PM
I can't quite explain it

There's nothing to explain, only to believe. The Scriptures couldn't be more clearer. God chose us and as an effect of this, we can 'choose' God 'freely' in our minds. Our choosing God is the effect of God first choosing us. This, if I may be so bold, isn't debatable, it's a stone cold fact.

And Philosophy has no precedent over Scriptures.

9Marksfan
Aug 2nd 2008, 11:16 PM
In going this far it makes me nothing but a toy, and suggests God chose who would go to Heaven and who would go to Hell. In which case it becomes God's fault if one ends up in Hell.

No - people exercising their God-given free will choose to reject Him - how is God making that choice for them? How is it God's fault? For giving them free will?!?! You can't have it both ways!!!!!


I do not believe it's God's fault.

Correct - it's ours.


He loves us all and would not choose any of us got to Hell, in my opinion.

So is the fact that we go to Hell something that has trumped His intentions for us - are we stronger than God?


What you are saying is we were rolled down the bowling lane to Heaven, even if we steer off towards Hell we get redirected to Heaven as it's our destiny.

No - we were rolling down the bowling lane of hell - and we deserved to be - but God sent His SOn to die for us so that we could go down the bowling lane of heaven - and even though we foolishly try to go off track and end up in the "gutter" (literally, sometimes!), God will ensure that we get to Heaven - yet we DO have a part to play in terms of submission and obedience to His will - mysterious yet true....


You are also suggesting many are rolled down the bowling lane to Hell and even if they steer off in the direction of Heaven they will end up in Hell as it's their destiny.

No - no one willtruly seek heaven and be denied it - all who choose to stay on the bowling lane to hell will only have themselves to blame when they end up there...


I strongly disagree that my going to Heaven is because God chose me, it's because I chose Him.

Well I hope you're saying that because you don't know your Bible rather than because you're rejecting its teaching - every single believer is in that state because God chose them - as Jesus Himself said "You have NOT chosen Me but I have chosen you..."

If that were to be true for you, how would you react?


He is there for all of us and we must choose Him. Not the other way around.

Your statement is indeed true - but what IS the "other way round"?


"Everything is in God's hands, but that doesn't mean He has a hand in everything."

Scripture would disagree:-

"The lot is cast in the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD." Prov 16:33 NKJV

"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will" Eph 1:11 NKJV

White Spider
Aug 2nd 2008, 11:17 PM
I don't believe this - and neither have countless Christians that have believed the Reformed faith down through the centuries - right up to the present day! God chooses a people for Himself - had he not done so, NONE of us would have ever chosen Him because we love sin - NOT GOD! He MUST change our hearts first before we will ever choose Him!

As I've been saying, we choose Him.


No - He knows we are dead in trespasses and sins and need to be made alive in Christ - spiritually deaf and blind - and He gives us ears to hear and enlightens us with spiritual sight! :pp

Correct again . . . but after listening and seeing we still have the choice.


No - we are slaves to sin and in the grip of Satan - we CANNOT free ourselves - GOD has to do that!

I agree, but before God will do that, we must choose to accept Christ as our personal Savior.


So your decision to believe in Christ was nothing to do with God enabling you? You took that decision entirely independently of Him?

Not entirely independent of Him, but I was the one who ultimately made the decision.


Bottom line - we choose God because He chose us - NOT the other way round.

Correct. We choose God . . . He chose us all, every single person. And some of us choose Him in return.

BrckBrln
Aug 2nd 2008, 11:21 PM
Correct. We choose God . . . He chose us all, every single person. And some of us choose Him in return.

Find me a scripture that says God chooses all people. If I remember correctly it goes like "many are called, few are chosen".

9Marksfan
Aug 2nd 2008, 11:27 PM
he doesnt only know our choices. remember we did not choose god he chose us, but he knew us before we knew ourselves. he knew our hearts, knows how we would react all that stuff, he gauged all that however he saw fit. i dont claim to know why god chose anyone only he knows that, but he knew everything in our hearts before we did.

imagine a sea of people all unable to choose god, then out of those god picks who he wants and gives them the ability to choose him.

but remember god is not willing that any would be lost, so there in is our choice.

so he did not predestine some for hell and some for life without us being involved, we are made in his image

Yes - this is nearer the truth. Good post.

White Spider
Aug 2nd 2008, 11:31 PM
No - people exercising their God-given free will choose to reject Him - how is God making that choice for them? How is it God's fault? For giving them free will?!?! You can't have it both ways!!!!!

I don't know where you disagree with me, as we both believe we have free will. I think you are misunderstanding something.


So is the fact that we go to Hell something that has trumped His intentions for us - are we stronger than God?

No. We have the choice He gave us. He intended us to have the choice.


No - we were rolling down the bowling lane of hell - and we deserved to be - but God sent His SOn to die for us so that we could go down the bowling lane of heaven - and even though we foolishly try to go off track and end up in the "gutter" (literally, sometimes!), God will ensure that we get to Heaven - yet we DO have a part to play in terms of submission and obedience to His will - mysterious yet true....

98% Correct, we can still denounce God and Christ and get back on the lane to Hell if we choose.


No - no one will truly seek heaven and be denied it - all who choose to stay on the bowling lane to hell will only have themselves to blame when they end up there...

Again I fail to see why we are discussing this as we believe the same thing.


Well I hope you're saying that because you don't know your Bible rather than because you're rejecting its teaching - every single believer is in that state because God chose them - as Jesus Himself said "You have NOT chosen Me but I have chosen you..."

Mat 7:7 - Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:


If that were to be true for you, how would you react?

I would not react, God would react. I would have no ability to react unless God reacted for me.


Your statement is indeed true - but what IS the "other way round"?

Us being there and God choosing us. You come to me with Heaven, and you have to go to Hell. (Which is not the case.)


Scripture would disagree:-

"The lot is cast in the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD." Prov 16:33 NKJV

"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will" Eph 1:11 NKJV

An inheritance, I like that . . . it's a predestined inheritance . . . but there is one rule to obtaining the inheritance . . . We must accept Christ as our Savior.

White Spider
Aug 2nd 2008, 11:33 PM
Find me a scripture that says God chooses all people. If I remember correctly it goes like "many are called, few are chosen".

Did not Christ die and defeat death for all mankind, or did He die and then rise for a few people.

BrckBrln
Aug 2nd 2008, 11:41 PM
Did not Christ die and defeat death for all mankind, or did He die and then rise for a few people.

Depends on what you believe. ;)

That's irrelevant though as that doesn't prove that God chose us all. Especially when there are scriptures that explicitly say otherwise.

White Spider
Aug 3rd 2008, 12:22 AM
Depends on what you believe. ;)

That's irrelevant though as that doesn't prove that God chose us all. Especially when there are scriptures that explicitly say otherwise.

Why have Christ, His son, take on everyone's sin unless he was giving everyone the chance to be saved?

Why have His son face that if He had already chosen those who would go to heaven?

What purpose did Christ's death and resurrection serve if no matter what I was already going to be sent to Heaven or Hell?

What purpose does anything have? NONE!

But I believe there is a purpose, to everything. I believe Christ died and rose again so I could be saved. I believe we have the choice to accept Christ. I believe in the truth!

BrckBrln
Aug 3rd 2008, 12:40 AM
Why have Christ, His son, take on everyone's sin unless he was giving everyone the chance to be saved?

Why have His son face that if He had already chosen those who would go to heaven?

What purpose did Christ's death and resurrection serve if no matter what I was already going to be sent to Heaven or Hell?

What purpose does anything have? NONE!

But I believe there is a purpose, to everything. I believe Christ died and rose again so I could be saved. I believe we have the choice to accept Christ. I believe in the truth!

You're thinking of fatalism which says things will happen no matter what. But God has not only ordained the end, you being chosen by Him for salvation, but also the means, Christ's death on the cross.

White Spider
Aug 3rd 2008, 01:16 AM
You're thinking of fatalism which says things will happen no matter what. But God has not only ordained the end, you being chosen by Him for salvation, but also the means, Christ's death on the cross.

No I'm not thinking of Fatalism . . .

How is it Salvation if I do not accept Christ, but God uses this shell of a being to accept Christ after preordaining this shell to go to Heaven.

It takes ME out of the picture, I no longer exist . . . and if I don't exist there is no soul to save.

BrckBrln
Aug 3rd 2008, 01:26 AM
No I'm not thinking of Fatalism . . .

How is it Salvation if I do not accept Christ, but God uses this shell of a being to accept Christ after preordaining this shell to go to Heaven.

It takes ME out of the picture, I no longer exist . . . and if I don't exist there is no soul to save.

No, no, no. Here's how it works, at least, according to us reformed folk. God the Father elects us from before the foundation of the world, God the Son is sent to die for us, and God the Holy Spirit applies salvation to us when we believe in Christ as we will because the Father chose us. The first is the end and the last two are the means of salvation. This is the divine side of things. If we look at the human side, all we see is that we have a 'free' choice to follow Christ.

White Spider
Aug 3rd 2008, 01:39 AM
No, no, no. Here's how it works, at least, according to us reformed folk. God the Father elects us from before the foundation of the world, God the Son is sent to die for us, and God the Holy Spirit applies salvation to us when we believe in Christ as we will because the Father chose us. The first is the end and the last two are the means of salvation. This is the divine side of things. If we look at the human side, all we see is that we have a 'free' choice to follow Christ.

But according to what you are saying we don't really have free choice to follow Christ. We choose to follow Christ because God makes us, which means we did not choose to follow Christ. We don't choose to do anything except what God chose for us to do which takes us back to God making us sin, us not really existing, and life being just a puppet show where we the characters think we are something we are not.

Which is why I think we have free will and God did not choose some to go to Heaven and some to rot in Hell.

I mean ask yourself: Do you believe in Christ? Or were you simply chosen to go to heaven.

And why were you chosen if you were, what makes you so much better than so many people? There are millions of decent people who are not believers in Christ. Yet after killing and raping dozens of men Jeffrey Dahmer goes to heaven?

The only way any of that works is if it is our own free will . . . that when shown what God is we choose to believe in God and accept Christ.

White Spider
Aug 3rd 2008, 01:43 AM
Sunday Morning

It's a special Sunday, this Sunday has been advertised to bring new believers to Christ and there are close to a couple hundred non-believers in the audience. Now imagine the preacher tells them all something like this.

Thank you for coming, before I tell you the good news of Christ I want you to know before the world was created our God chose some of you to be saved. The others of you will go to Hell . . .

I'll say for a fact if that was what I was taught before being Christian, I would not be Christian.

BrckBrln
Aug 3rd 2008, 01:55 AM
But according to what you are saying we don't really have free choice to follow Christ. We choose to follow Christ because God makes us, which means we did not choose to follow Christ. We don't choose to do anything except what God chose for us to do which takes us back to God making us sin, us not really existing, and life being just a puppet show where we the characters think we are something we are not.

Which is why I think we have free will and God did not choose some to go to Heaven and some to rot in Hell.

I mean ask yourself: Do you believe in Christ? Or were you simply chosen to go to heaven.

And why were you chosen if you were, what makes you so much better than so many people? There are millions of decent people who are not believers in Christ. Yet after killing and raping dozens of men Jeffrey Dahmer goes to heaven?

The only way any of that works is if it is our own free will . . . that when shown what God is we choose to believe in God and accept Christ.

This is why I don't like discussing the issue. Because people, me included, just can't think outside of what they already believe. I have a hard time in understand just how this 'free will' is supposed to work, just like you have a hard time understanding how determinism works. But please, tell me how you view 'free will' and you choosing God rather than God choosing you. Does this not reduce God to a mere beggar?

Anyway, I, nor you, are so much better than other people that we deserve salvation. God chose me and you and everybody else according to His own good will.

BrckBrln
Aug 3rd 2008, 02:00 AM
Sunday Morning

It's a special Sunday, this Sunday has been advertised to bring new believers to Christ and there are close to a couple hundred non-believers in the audience. Now imagine the preacher tells them all something like this.

Thank you for coming, before I tell you the good news of Christ I want you to know before the world was created our God chose some of you to be saved. The others of you will go to Hell . . .

I'll say for a fact if that was what I was taught before being Christian, I would not be Christian.

Well, it's true. God has chosen some people for heaven and the others are 'chosen' for hell in the sense that they weren't chosen for heaven. But, again, this is the divine side of things. God commanded us to preach the Gospel to every creature and anybody who hears it and wants it, though most people don't want it, can be saved. This is the human side. They are compatible.

Just for clarification, do you believe that God chooses humans for salvation?

White Spider
Aug 3rd 2008, 02:04 AM
Well, it's true. God has chosen some people for heaven and the others are 'chosen' for hell in the sense that they weren't chosen for heaven. But, again, this is the divine side of things. God commanded us to preach the Gospel to every creature and anybody who hears it and wants it, though most people don't want it, can be saved. This is the human side. They are compatible.

Just for clarification, do you believe that God chooses humans for salvation?

I believe He chose to give us all a choice. He did not choose that one be saved and another rot in Hell. He gave us that choice.

BrckBrln
Aug 3rd 2008, 02:08 AM
I believe He chose to give us all a choice. He did not choose that one be saved and another rot in Hell. He gave us that choice.

So you don't believe that God chooses who ends up in heaven or hell, that God doesn't choose people for salvation? How, then, do you reconcile that with verses like this?

You did not choose Me, but I chose you...John 15:16

White Spider
Aug 3rd 2008, 02:33 AM
So you don't believe that God chooses who ends up in heaven or hell, that God doesn't choose people for salvation? How, then, do you reconcile that with verses like this?

You did not choose Me, but I chose you...John 15:16

Well, in context it seems to me Jesus is saying to the disciples He chose them to spread the word.

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit — fruit that will last. . . . ~ John 15:16

Before that He says, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me." ~ John 15:4

He is telling the disciples to remain in Him and He'll remain in them.

Apparently they have the choice to not remain in Christ.

He goes onto say, "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." ~ John 15:6

Again suggesting we have the choice to be in Christ.

Take things in context. It may help.

BrckBrln
Aug 3rd 2008, 02:52 AM
Well, in context it seems to me Jesus is saying to the disciples He chose them to spread the word.

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit — fruit that will last. . . . ~ John 15:16

Before that He says, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me." ~ John 15:4

He is telling the disciples to remain in Him and He'll remain in them.

Apparently they have the choice to not remain in Christ.

He goes onto say, "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." ~ John 15:6

Again suggesting we have the choice to be in Christ.

Take things in context. It may help.

So you're saying the whole chapter of John 15 is only for the disciples? What about Ephesians 1:4?

Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world...

White Spider
Aug 3rd 2008, 03:06 AM
So you're saying the whole chapter of John 15 is only for the disciples? What about Ephesians 1:4?

No, I am saying the I chose you part is to the Disciples about being chosen to start the spread of Christianity. Not God choosing who will be saved.

As for the rest of the chapter it suggests we have the choice.

[QUOTE=BrckBrln;1734194]Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world...

As for Ephesians 1:4 if you read a little further to Ephesians 1:13-14 ~ And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

Again our choice gets us to heaven.

BrckBrln
Aug 3rd 2008, 03:20 AM
As for Ephesians 1:4 if you read a little further to Ephesians 1:13-14 ~ And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

Again our choice gets us to heaven.

But the reason we believed is because God chose us as seen earlier in the chapter that you apparently brush aside. Ephesians 1:4 can't be any more clear, my friend.

White Spider
Aug 3rd 2008, 05:11 AM
But the reason we believed is because God chose us as seen earlier in the chapter that you apparently brush aside. Ephesians 1:4 can't be any more clear, my friend.

But if we believe because God chose us, we do not believe. We are forced to, and we are right back to not existing as everything we do is really God doing it through our shells of bodies. Back to being puppets without souls. Purposeless creatures God controls. No one goes to heaven, no one goes to Hell, because none of us exist, it's all just God playing a game with himself. Nothing exists and on and on and on.

How many times do I have to say we have choice and it is because of our choice in accepting Christ we go to Heaven?

In other words, if it is our choice we have the ability to go to Heaven.

If we do not have free choice life is nothing but a joke and none of it exists anyway and there is no point.

Roelof
Aug 3rd 2008, 05:43 AM
I do not want to interrupt the very interesting conversation, but we must keep the following in mind:

For God so loved the [WHOLE] world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Joh 3:16)

But the Lord’s plans stand firm forever; Psalm 33:11 (New Living Translation)

….. All is under the permissive direction of God, as with Job and Satan long ago. Revelation 13:5. (KJV Bible Commentary)
But the Lord is in his holy Temple;
the Lord still rules from heaven.
He watches everyone closely,
examining every person on earth. (Psalm 11:4, New Living Translation)



The Dutch Reformed Church (in Dutch: Nederlandse Hervormde Kerk; NHK) was one of many branches of churches coming out of the Protestant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant) Reformation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation) in Europe in the sixteenth century. While the Dutch Reformed Church was based in the Netherlands, other churches of the Reformation began in France, Switzerland, Germany, Hungary, England, and Scotland. Like some of the churches in these other countries, the theology and practice of the Dutch Reformed Church was based on the teachings of John Calvin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin) and the many other Reformers of his time. Since a 2004 merger, the church has formed a part of the Protestant Church in the Netherlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Church_in_the_Netherlands) (Protestantse Kerk in Nederland, PKN).


The five points of Calvinism are:


John Calvin (July 10 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_10), 1509 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1509) – May 27 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_27), 1564 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1564)) was a French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_people) Protestant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant) theologian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology) during the Protestant Reformation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation) and was a central developer of the system of Christian theology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_theology) called Calvinism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism) or Reformed theology. In Geneva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva), he rejected Papal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope) authority, established a new scheme of civic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic) and ecclesiastical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastical_polity) governance, and created a central hub from which Reformed theology was propagated. He is renowned for his teachings and writings, in particular for his Institutes of the Christian Religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutes_of_the_Christian_Religion).


Total depravity [to express condemnation]

Also called "radical depravity" and "total inability", this point means that every person is corrupt and sinful throughout in all of his or her faculties, including the mind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind) and will (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will_in_theology). Thus, no one is able to do what is truly good in God's eyes. (This does not mean that every act is as evil as it could be, but rather that every good act is corrupted by sin.) As a result of this corruption, man is enslaved to sin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin), rebellious and hostile toward God, blind to truth, and unable to save himself or even prepare himself for salvation.


Unconditional election
Election means "choice." God's choice from eternity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternity) past, of whom he will bring to himself, is not based on foreseen virtue, merit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merit), or faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith) in the persons he chooses but rather is unconditionally grounded in his own sovereign decision.


Limited atonement [to make reparation for a sin]
Also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", the doctrine of limited atonement is the teaching that Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus)' atonement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement) was definite and certain in its design and accomplishment. The doctrine is driven by the concept of the sovereignty of God in salvation and the Calvinist understanding of the nature of the atonement: In the Calvinist view, the atonement is viewed as a penal substitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_substitution) (that is, Jesus was punished in the place of sinners), and since, Calvinists argue, it would be unjust for God to pay the penalty for some people's sins and then still condemn them for those sins, all those whose sins were atoned for must necessarily be saved. Moreover, since in this scheme God knows precisely who the elect are and since only the elect will be saved, there is no requirement that Christ atone for sins in general, only for those of the elect. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power (in other words, God could have elected everyone and used it to atone for them all), but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is designed for some and not all.

Irresistible grace
Also known as "effectual grace" or the "effectual call", this doctrine does not hold that every influence of God's Holy Spirit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit) cannot be resisted but that the Holy Spirit is able to overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible and effective. Thus, when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved.

Perseverance of the saints
Also called the "preservation of the saints" or "eternal security," the fifth point teaches that, since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by human will or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return. This is slightly different from the "once saved, always saved" view prevalent in some evangelical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism) churches in which, despite apostasy or unrepentant and habitual sin, the individual is truly saved if he or she had truly accepted Christ in the past; in traditional Calvinist teaching, apostasy by such a person may be proof that they never were saved.




Methodism is a group of historically related denominations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_denomination) of Protestant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant) Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity). The Methodist movement traces its origin to the evangelistic teaching of John Wesley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley). It originated in 18th century Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain), and through vigorous missionary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionary) activity, spread throughout the British Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire), the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States), and beyond. Originally it appealed especially to workers, agricultural workers, and slaves. Theologically most Methodists are Arminian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism) or sometimes moderately Calvinist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderate_Calvinism), emphasizing that Christ accomplished salvation for every human being, and that humans must exercise an act of the will to be saved (as opposed to the traditional Calvinist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism) doctrine of monergism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monergism)); and low church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_church) in liturgy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy) (although this varies greatly in individual chapels; the Wesleys themselves greatly valued the Anglican liturgy and tradition).

Due to the influence of John Wesley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley), Arminianism is perhaps most prominent in the Methodist movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methodism).


Arminianism holds to the following tenets:


Humans are naturally unable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity) to make any effort towards salvation

Salvation is possible by grace alone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_gratia)

Works of human effort cannot cause or contribute to salvation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation)

God's election is conditional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_election) on faith in Jesus

Jesus' atonement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement) was for all people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlimited_atonement)

God allows his grace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevenient_grace) to be resisted by those unwilling to believe

Salvation can be lost, as continued salvation is conditional upon continued faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_preservation_of_the_saints)


(I can not remember the sources, but think it was Wiki and some other web sites)

BrckBrln
Aug 3rd 2008, 03:24 PM
But if we believe because God chose us, we do not believe. We are forced to, and we are right back to not existing as everything we do is really God doing it through our shells of bodies. Back to being puppets without souls. Purposeless creatures God controls. No one goes to heaven, no one goes to Hell, because none of us exist, it's all just God playing a game with himself. Nothing exists and on and on and on.

How many times do I have to say we have choice and it is because of our choice in accepting Christ we go to Heaven?

In other words, if it is our choice we have the ability to go to Heaven.

If we do not have free choice life is nothing but a joke and none of it exists anyway and there is no point.

Like I said before, it seems you don't have the ability to think outside what you already believe. But I will try my best to explain.

First, God does choose us. God has always chosen things for Himself. Do you deny that the nation of Israel was chosen? I have already given scriptures that state explicitly that God chooses people to be saved. They are called the 'elect' which is a word found numerous times in the Bible.

Second, God saves us by changing our wills which are naturally opposed to God. Remember Paul when he said nobody is good and that nobody seeks after God? You can't come to Christ on your own, the Holy Spirit changes the person's will, without them knowing it of course, and it's because of this that the person can now 'freely' from their perspective follow Christ.

You seem to think that if God controls anything that a human does, then they are no longer human and that somehow they don't exist. Do you know that the crucifixion was decreed by God before the foundation of the world? But by your thinking that means that Christ doesn't even exist since God controlled Him.

Revinius
Aug 3rd 2008, 03:38 PM
You already know my take Spider, so it would be somewhat moot for me to repeat it.

Also, found a good passage that highlights what i was saying regarding the two truths of scripture that are in apparent contradiction to our limited human minds yet, like the cables that hold up a suspension bridge, co-exist in harmony.

Acts2:23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

When asked about how he reconciled the apparent election vs choice issue, Charles Spurgeon replied that "You dont have to reconcile friends!"

White Spider
Aug 3rd 2008, 06:06 PM
Like I said before, it seems you don't have the ability to think outside what you already believe. But I will try my best to explain.

First, God does choose us. God has always chosen things for Himself. Do you deny that the nation of Israel was chosen? I have already given scriptures that state explicitly that God chooses people to be saved. They are called the 'elect' which is a word found numerous times in the Bible.

Second, God saves us by changing our wills which are naturally opposed to God. Remember Paul when he said nobody is good and that nobody seeks after God? You can't come to Christ on your own, the Holy Spirit changes the person's will, without them knowing it of course, and it's because of this that the person can now 'freely' from their perspective follow Christ.

You seem to think that if God controls anything that a human does, then they are no longer human and that somehow they don't exist. Do you know that the crucifixion was decreed by God before the foundation of the world? But by your thinking that means that Christ doesn't even exist since God controlled Him.

First, of course God controlled Christ, they are one and the same, yet separate at the same time. SO it only makes sense that God who is Christ controlled Himself.

And look what you said, God chose Israel, do you know how many Israelites did not follow Christ? We still have the choice. IT IS OUR CHOICE.

God chose Israel, Much of Israel did not choose Him. He sent His son to die and be reborn in an act of choosing the world. Now it is our choice to also choose him.

God does not say, you believe because I tell you to. That is not belief.

I am merely saying if God controls everything we do, we can not exist. Do you understand that?

And I can think outside of what I believe, I've had my mind changed several times on these forums alone. I am willing to change and admit I was wrong, but first you must show me I am wrong and so far you have only shown your inability to think outside of what you believe.

White Spider
Aug 3rd 2008, 06:10 PM
You already know my take Spider, so it would be somewhat moot for me to repeat it.

Also, found a good passage that highlights what i was saying regarding the two truths of scripture that are in apparent contradiction to our limited human minds yet, like the cables that hold up a suspension bridge, co-exist in harmony.

Acts2:23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

When asked about how he reconciled the apparent election vs choice issue, Charles Spurgeon replied that "You dont have to reconcile friends!"


What I am trying to say is it is our choice to believe and accept Christ in our hearts.

We must choose to accept Christ.

God chose all of us when He resurrected Christ. And now it is our time to choose Him.

He loves every single person in the world and chose them all, but He decided He only wanted us if we want Him and gave us the choice to believe or not.

BrckBrln
Aug 3rd 2008, 06:15 PM
What I am trying to say is it is our choice to believe and accept Christ in our hearts.

We must choose to accept Christ.

Nobody is denying this. But this is only one side of things, the human side. There is another side to the coin.


God chose all of us when He resurrected Christ. And now it is our time to choose Him.

He loves every single person in the world and chose them all, but He decided He only wanted us if we want Him and gave us the choice to believe or not.

Ok. God did not choose everybody or else the verse wouldn't say 'many are called, few are chosen'. Don't ignore the verses about God choosing us, please.

Revinius
Aug 3rd 2008, 06:28 PM
What I am trying to say is it is our choice to believe and accept Christ in our hearts.

We must choose to accept Christ.

God chose all of us when He resurrected Christ. And now it is our time to choose Him.

He loves every single person in the world and chose them all, but He decided He only wanted us if we want Him and gave us the choice to believe or not.

Yup there is an element of choice. But what you were stating in another thread is that God is not sovereign, that he does not predestine people for salvation. You assert correctly that it is completely beyond the bounds of human reason for God to both choose and for us to both choose. But as highlighted by the examples have given in scripture, God asserts that over our sphere of choice there is a greater sphere of predestined soveriegnty over ALL things. This boggles us... our reason can't handle two apparently conflicting concepts, but our reason has it's limits and it doesnt have the ultimate variable of God.

I think that it is somewhat impossible.... in my state of sin.... in my totally depraved mind... for me to touch God? No. God cannot relate to those he has not first justified, that is afterall why Jesus came. So, to bring reason back into the equation, it is God who must first act in enabling our hearts before we have any hope of relating to Him.

Hmmm.... 4:30am in the morning so time to pass out. Sleep is good ZZZZZzzzzz.

White Spider
Aug 3rd 2008, 06:28 PM
Nobody is denying this. But this is only one side of things, the human side. There is another side to the coin.

Ok. God did not choose everybody or else the verse wouldn't say 'many are called, few are chosen'. Don't ignore the verses about God choosing us, please.

I'm not ignoring them, but did Christ die for all or for a few?

As Roelof said, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ~ John 3:16"

It says God so loved the world

It does not say God so loved a few

It also says whoever believes in Him

Not whoever was chosen in Him

BrckBrln
Aug 3rd 2008, 06:34 PM
I'm not ignoring them, but did Christ die for all or for a few?

As Roelof said, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ~ John 3:16"

It says God so loved the world

It does not say God so loved a few

It also says whoever believes in Him

Not whoever was chosen in Him

We're not discussing the Atonement, we're discussing election. It's painfully clear that God chooses people who are called the elect. Do you deny this?

White Spider
Aug 3rd 2008, 06:36 PM
Yup there is an element of choice. But what you were stating in another thread is that God is not sovereign, that he does not predestine people for salvation. You assert correctly that it is completely beyond the bounds of human reason for God to both choose and for us to both choose. But as highlighted by the examples have given in scripture, God asserts that over our sphere of choice there is a greater sphere of predestined soveriegnty over ALL things. This boggles us... our reason can't handle two apparently conflicting concepts, but our reason has it's limits and it doesnt have the ultimate variable of God.

I think that it is somewhat impossible.... in my state of sin.... in my totally depraved mind... for me to touch God? No. God cannot relate to those he has not first justified, that is afterall why Jesus came. So, to bring reason back into the equation, it is God who must first act in enabling our hearts before we have any hope of relating to Him.

Hmmm.... 4:30am in the morning so time to pass out. Sleep is good ZZZZZzzzzz.

I never said God was not sovereign.

And yes I believe we cannot choose God without Him first choosing us, but even if He chooses us we have the ability to not choose Him.

Christ came for everyone, through Christ's act God chose everyone. And now we must choose Him.

I am only saying God does not control us like puppets, He certainly could, but He does not.

If you hold a gun to a person's head and say, "Tell me you love me or I'll kill you." and they say, "I love you." Do you really think they love you?

God predestining us to believe in Him is the same thing, but He wants real love. So He gives us the 99% free will based choice to believe in Him.

BrckBrln
Aug 3rd 2008, 08:26 PM
I am only saying God does not control us like puppets, He certainly could, but He does not.

The preparations of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD. Proverbs 16:1

A man’s heart plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps. Proverbs 16:9

The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes. Proverbs 21:1

God does control humans, maybe not all the time, but He does sometimes. My love for God is no less because He chose me.

White Spider
Aug 3rd 2008, 09:11 PM
The preparations of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD. Proverbs 16:1

A man’s heart plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps. Proverbs 16:9

The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes. Proverbs 21:1

God does control humans, maybe not all the time, but He does sometimes. My love for God is no less because He chose me.

Yes, I believe He does control humans at times. Though for the most part he lets us choose our own way.

Of course your love is not less because it is your love, not God's love for Himself through you.

God choosing us and us having no say is like an arranged marriage, but I am saying He loves us and He's told us and shown us. We must now say in return we love Him and accept Christ as our Savior. It takes two for us to get to heaven.

God has said He loves everyone, now everyone has to choose for themselves to love Him in return. Which ultimately leaves the decision entirely up to us.

BrckBrln
Aug 3rd 2008, 09:16 PM
God choosing us and us having no say is like an arranged marriage

This is a great analogy. Yes, it is like an arranged marriage, one between you and God. That is literally the best marriage partner you could ask for. As I said before, your love for God is no less, on the contrary it's more, if He chooses you so that you can choose Him. There is no contradiction, no annulment of human responsibility, to say that God chooses us for salvation.

And I would like to know why you think that God, for the most part, let's us choose our own way. Why isn't it the other way around? Where God, for the most part, controls our ways? All the Bible says is that God can and does control people. The extent of this is unknown, it seems.

White Spider
Aug 3rd 2008, 09:38 PM
This is a great analogy. Yes, it is like an arranged marriage, one between you and God. That is literally the best marriage partner you could ask for. As I said before, your love for God is no less, on the contrary it's more, if He chooses you so that you can choose Him. There is no contradiction, no annulment of human responsibility, to say that God chooses us for salvation.

And I would like to know why you think that God, for the most part, let's us choose our own way. Why isn't it the other way around? Where God, for the most part, controls our ways? All the Bible says is that God can and does control people. The extent of this is unknown, it seems.

"if He chooses you so that you can choose Him"

There we go, that's what I've been saying all along.

And why do I think He let's us choose our own way for the most part?

:hmm: Perhaps it's because for the most part the world is wicked, sinful, evil, etc. In fact nothing in the world resembles anything God like. If He was controlling us even more than 50% of the time, God would have to sin, which He does not, He is perfect. He cannot sin, therefore He cannot be controlling us.

And it's not an arranged marriage. It's a mutual marriage out of Love from both parties.

BrckBrln
Aug 3rd 2008, 11:09 PM
"if He chooses you so that you can choose Him"

There we go, that's what I've been saying all along.

But when God chooses somebody, that person is going to choose Him back. God's purposes are never thwarted by humans.


And why do I think He let's us choose our own way for the most part?

:hmm: Perhaps it's because for the most part the world is wicked, sinful, evil, etc. In fact nothing in the world resembles anything God like. If He was controlling us even more than 50% of the time, God would have to sin, which He does not, He is perfect. He cannot sin, therefore He cannot be controlling us.So if God controls a person who is sinning, then that means that God sins? You do know that the crucifixion was decreed? God controlled people to do this sinful act or else it wouldn't have happened. God uses sin for His purposes.


And it's not an arranged marriage. It's a mutual marriage out of Love from both parties.But why do you love Him and not others. What makes you so special that you can see what others do not?

quiet dove
Aug 4th 2008, 01:11 AM
But why do you love Him and not others. What makes you so special that you can see what others do not?

It has nothing to do with any of us being special, it has to do with when God offered us salvation through Christ, we believed and said yes. Since Christ died that any man who believes on Him may be saved. Balls in our court, gotta answer the question Christ ask. Whos temple are we, who do we choose, do we believe? The Holy Spirit convicts the mans heart, but the man still has a choice to make.

BrckBrln
Aug 4th 2008, 01:14 AM
It has nothing to do with any of us being special, it has to do with when God offered us salvation through Christ, we believed and said yes. Since Christ died that any man who believes on Him may be saved. Balls in our court, gotta answer the question Christ ask. Whos temple are we, who do we choose, do we believe? The Holy Spirit convicts the mans heart, but the man still has a choice to make.

Yes, but why do some choose Christ and others do not? Scripture says it's because God chose us.

quiet dove
Aug 4th 2008, 01:18 AM
Yes, but why do some choose Christ and others do not? Scripture says it's because God chose us.

It says that because if you continue to reject Him, your hard grows harder and harder. God chose all men, He sent His son who died for all men, all men have a choice to make before they die. Choose Him or reject Him.

I can choose everyone on this board to write a post to, but whether or not they will choose to write back is up to them

White Spider
Aug 4th 2008, 01:29 AM
It has nothing to do with any of us being special, it has to do with when God offered us salvation through Christ, we believed and said yes. Since Christ died that any man who believes on Him may be saved. Balls in our court, gotta answer the question Christ ask. Whos temple are we, who do we choose, do we believe? The Holy Spirit convicts the mans heart, but the man still has a choice to make.


It says that because if you continue to reject Him, your hard grows harder and harder. God chose all men, He sent His son who died for all men, all men have a choice to make before they die. Choose Him or reject Him.

I can choose everyone on this board to write a post to, but whether or not they will choose to write back is up to them

:pp Amen!!! :pp

BrckBrln
Aug 4th 2008, 01:37 AM
It says that because if you continue to reject Him, your hard grows harder and harder. God chose all men, He sent His son who died for all men, all men have a choice to make before they die. Choose Him or reject Him.

I can choose everyone on this board to write a post to, but whether or not they will choose to write back is up to them

Find me a scripture that states explicitly that 'God chose all people' because I can only find 'many are called, few are chosen' among many others.

White Spider
Aug 4th 2008, 02:59 AM
Find me a scripture that states explicitly that 'God chose all people' because I can only find 'many are called, few are chosen' among many others.

What verse is that in, perhaps it's out of context again?

I mean it doesn't make sense with what you are saying it means.

Revinius
Aug 4th 2008, 03:11 AM
Ok, you guys confuse me. How can you on one hand agree that we are predestined to be elected yet claim that we can somehow resist such election? Is God not powerful enough? He does give us some degree of choice, even the most calvinist of men will agree to that. But when we look at out own inescapable depravity out of which God reveals Himself to us.... there can be no other choice but Him. It's a nice catch 22.

BrckBrln
Aug 4th 2008, 03:25 AM
Ok, you guys confuse me. How can you on one hand agree that we are predestined to be elected yet claim that we can somehow resist such election? Is God not powerful enough? He does give us some degree of choice, even the most calvinist of men will agree to that. But when we look at out own inescapable depravity out of which God reveals Himself to us.... there can be no other choice but Him. It's a nice catch 22.

Agreed, if God chooses us, we will believe. Therefore, God couldn't have chosen us all unless you believe in universalism.

And the verse is Matthew 22:14, White Spider.

Roelof
Aug 4th 2008, 03:42 AM
God offered his Grace of salvation to the whole world by His Son's crucifixion.
God KNOWS if you will accept Jesus or reject Him as your Saviour !!
Another way of stating "election" !!

BrckBrln
Aug 4th 2008, 03:58 AM
God offered his Grace of salvation to the whole world by His Son's crucifixion.
God KNOWS if you will accept Jesus or reject Him as your Saviour !!
Another way of stating "election" !!

God 'knowing' is not election. Election is God choosing.

servantsheart
Aug 4th 2008, 04:08 AM
Predestined or Not?



I know this is a confusing circular argument, but bare with me.



Are our lives predestined by God since before time or were we created and given the ability to choose our own paths?


Do we create our own destiny, or do we have a chosen destiny.



I'll start with this and let you all give me some feed back before I get into some of the more controversial issues of this topic.

I am saying yes our lives were predestined by God before he ever placed us in our mother's wombs. We are given the ability to choose our own path in life by keeping our free will or by willingly choosing to give it back to God by accepting his Son Jesus Christ into our hearts as our Lord and Savior.
God has an ultimate plan that is far better than we could ever image for our selves. But he still (even after giving our free will to him) he lets us make 'choices' in our life...if we don't ask Him for his will in making our plans then we have to settle for what we choose.
But with God giving us his directions and plans he can even turn our earthly choices into good out comes. We need to stay in constant prayer and praying to follow His plan for our lives. Just my take on this.
====
Isaiah 44:2 "Thus says the Lord, Who made you and formed you from the womb"...
Jeremiah 29:11 "For I know the thoughts and plans tht I have for you, says the Lord, thoughts and plans for welfare and peace and not for evil, to give you hope in your final outcome. Amplified Bible
====

In W.E. Vines,it gives Predestinate---this is a verb to be distinguished from proginosko, to foreknow; the latter has special reference to the persons foreknown by God; proorizo has special reference to that to which the subjects of His foreknowledge are predestinated.
See ForeKnow
Foreknow; Verb -proginosko, to know before; of Divine knowledge, concerning 1. Christ, 1 Peter 1:20; "foreknown (forordained) 2. Israel as God's earthly people, Romans 11:2; 3. believers, Romans 8:29; the foreknowledge of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels.
Noun--foreknowledge is used only of Divine foreknowledge, Acts 2:23 and 1 Peter 1:2. Foreknowledge is one aspect of omniscience; it is implied in God's warnings, promises and electing grace, but this does not preclude human will. He foreknows the exercise of faith which brings salvation.
See Foreshew : prokatangello, to announce beforehand, to proclaim, is translated "foreshewed" in Acts 3:18 and 7:52

Revinius
Aug 4th 2008, 04:36 AM
God offered his Grace of salvation to the whole world by His Son's crucifixion.
God KNOWS if you will accept Jesus or reject Him as your Saviour !!
Another way of stating "election" !!

How do you justify the constant references to "planning". Arent you arguing for a weak and plastic God if it's simply God 'googling' who will choose Him? I will reiterate how dangerous i feel it is to make the assertion that humanity has any sort of power at the expense of Gods.

fewarechosen
Aug 4th 2008, 04:44 AM
christ chose 12 apostles, one did not choose him.

that is our choice

White Spider
Aug 4th 2008, 05:30 AM
Agreed, if God chooses us, we will believe. Therefore, God couldn't have chosen us all unless you believe in universalism.

And the verse is Matthew 22:14, White Spider.

Well if you read Matthew 22 from verse one through verse 14 you may understand that single verse better.

This is what I make of the section.

God is the man holding the wedding service for His son. He sent his servants to invite the Israelites to Heaven, the wedding. The invited guests refused as did the Israelites turn their backs on God many times. God then sent his servants out to everyone inviting all to come to heaven. Heaven or the wedding hall was then filled. But God threw out those who did not accept Christ, those without wedding clothes.

It's a parable . . . saying God gave His chosen people a chance, but they rejected Him so He said I will let everyone into Heaven on one condition. They must wear wedding clothes. :cool:

White Spider
Aug 4th 2008, 05:33 AM
God 'knowing' is not election. Election is God choosing.

So if someone goes to Hell it is because God chose them to spend eternity suffering beyond all imagination?

You certainly have a very loving God, it's no wonder Christianity is dying! :cry:

White Spider
Aug 4th 2008, 05:41 AM
servantsheart

If I understand you correctly I like your view, it makes sense.

You're saying God has a plan and predestined life for us, but in order to follow God's path we must first choose Him and give ourselves over to Him letting Him choose our path for us. (Is that what you're saying?)

We do have choice, and with that choice we can allow our free will to be given to God. Though it is our choice to lose our choice.

Well I can go to sleep happier now, you've made sense of what I've felt.

Thank you

BrckBrln
Aug 4th 2008, 01:39 PM
Well if you read Matthew 22 from verse one through verse 14 you may understand that single verse better.

This is what I make of the section.

God is the man holding the wedding service for His son. He sent his servants to invite the Israelites to Heaven, the wedding. The invited guests refused as did the Israelites turn their backs on God many times. God then sent his servants out to everyone inviting all to come to heaven. Heaven or the wedding hall was then filled. But God threw out those who did not accept Christ, those without wedding clothes.

It's a parable . . . saying God gave His chosen people a chance, but they rejected Him so He said I will let everyone into Heaven on one condition. They must wear wedding clothes. :cool:

Tell me, who are God's 'elect' and how do you get around God's choosing in all these verses?

And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. Mark 13:20

For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.” 1 Corinthians 1:26-31

Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? James 2:5

And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. Matthew 24:22

And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:31

And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? Luke 18:7

There are a lot more, but it's clear that there is an 'elect' that God has chosen for Himself.

Revinius
Aug 4th 2008, 01:42 PM
So if someone goes to Hell it is because God chose them to spend eternity suffering beyond all imagination?

You certainly have a very loving God, it's no wonder Christianity is dying! :cry:

Well all are destined to Hell, we ALL deserve Hell. It's not God sentencing innocent people, there are NO INNOCENT PEOPLE. What the potter does with His clay is up to Him. If He was to be fair to all people we would all be going to Hell, but His mercy is for who he chooses as he is the Potter.

That might not be a satisfactory answer, but it is the biblical answer.

White Spider
Aug 4th 2008, 04:02 PM
Well all are destined to Hell, we ALL deserve Hell. It's not God sentencing innocent people, there are NO INNOCENT PEOPLE. What the potter does with His clay is up to Him. If He was to be fair to all people we would all be going to Hell, but His mercy is for who he chooses as he is the Potter.

That might not be a satisfactory answer, but it is the biblical answer.

Yes we all deserve Hell, but we didn't at first, when He originally made us. By saying God before time destined us to Heaven or Hell is saying He created Hell so He could send us there.

Wrong . . .

White Spider
Aug 4th 2008, 04:35 PM
Tell me, who are God's 'elect' and how do you get around God's choosing in all these verses?

Well let's start with this.

Does God exercise His control on the world 100% of the time?

Do people have 100% control?

Is it a mixture, God is in control, but He allows mankind to control some things?

Just reply by quoting the one you want to answer yes to.

BrckBrln
Aug 4th 2008, 04:40 PM
Well let's start with this.

Does God exercise His control on the world 100% of the time?

Do people have 100% control?

Is it a mixture, God is in control, but He allows mankind to control some things?

Just reply by quoting the one you want to answer yes to.

I believe that God is in control over the world, that He doesn't just sit back and watch humans screw things up. I believe God can and does control our decisions. How often He does this, I don't know. I don't believe people create their own destinies.

fewarechosen
Aug 4th 2008, 04:51 PM
I believe that God is in control over the world, that He doesn't just sit back and watch humans screw things up. I believe God can and does control our decisions. How often He does this, I don't know. I don't believe people create their own destinies.

so if he doesnt sit back and watch humans screw up - hes forcing us to screw up ?

TrustingFollower
Aug 4th 2008, 05:28 PM
I believe that God is in control over the world, that He doesn't just sit back and watch humans screw things up. I believe God can and does control our decisions. How often He does this, I don't know. I don't believe people create their own destinies.
God is not a puppeteer sitting in Heaven pulling our strings and controlling everything we do. If you believe that then you need to reexamine your doctrine. There are so many holes in that kind of doctrine that it is not even possible to refute it all in just one post or even possibly a thread. The whole of scripture points to the fact that God redeems people back to him through Christ. So if he is just up in heaven pulling our strings and making all the decisions for us, then why did he send Jesus to redeem us?

Revinius
Aug 4th 2008, 05:45 PM
Yes we all deserve Hell, but we didn't at first, when He originally made us. By saying God before time destined us to Heaven or Hell is saying He created Hell so He could send us there.

Wrong . . .

Lets look at this another way. We gave you solid biblical backing for our views, i even got a nice admin whack for contesting yours. So lets flip the whole thing round: do you have any biblical backing for this view? You have given us nothing but opinion, and opinion seperate from God was the reason for the fall if i remember correctly. So where in the Bible does it say that God doesnt elect people? I am not talking of inference, i am talking of plain biblical language like the whole bunch i gave you.

Look forward to hearing your reply.

Revinius
Aug 4th 2008, 05:57 PM
so if he doesnt sit back and watch humans screw up - hes forcing us to screw up ?


God is not a puppeteer sitting in Heaven pulling our strings and controlling everything we do. If you believe that then you need to reexamine your doctrine. There are so many holes in that kind of doctrine that it is not even possible to refute it all in just one post or even possibly a thread. The whole of scripture points to the fact that God redeems people back to him through Christ. So if he is just up in heaven pulling our strings and making all the decisions for us, then why did he send Jesus to redeem us?

Wow, so you are calling a doctrine that has lasted since at least the psalmist, "full of holes"? Interesting...

BrckBrln is not asserting that we are cosmic robots, as he has previously explained, but that ALL is ultimately under the complete sovereignty of God. That He has a plan that encompasses all individuals over all time. This, for some, conflicts with our ideas of individual accountability, however the two ideas co-exist in perfect harmony within the Biblical narrative. So what are we then to conclude? We can either 'reinterpret' the myriad relevant passages till they 'go away'; or we can accept it as a mystery of God and know that He can both be in complete control and still challenge us to account.

I don't see why you guys all have trouble with accepting this. Do you prize your own version of reason above the possibility that God does not succumb to any human reasoning? (waits for admin infringement but doesnt really care). I guess i am really challenging you all to not try and put God in a box... It would be so convenient to have Him all nice and watered down, to have God rely on us, on our choices. But to have a salvation that isnt guaranteed (cos if humanity is sovereign in choosing then are they not also sovereign in leaving?) is something that i really cannot live with.

TrustingFollower
Aug 4th 2008, 06:32 PM
I was referring to the Calvinist doctrine. That is what it looks like to me from the post I quoted. If you believe that only the ones that were predetermined before the world was even made are going to heaven then that would be an error in studying scripture.

Roelof
Aug 4th 2008, 06:50 PM
Is it a mixture, God is in control, but He allows mankind to control some things?



….. All is under the permissive direction of God, as with Job and Satan long ago. Revelation 13:5. (KJV Bible Commentary)

fewarechosen
Aug 4th 2008, 07:36 PM
see i think when you use the "great mystery of god" thats some man made doctrine thing -- its like they reached an impass and said well lets just write down its a mystery and call it good.

it just seems, your going to far in saying we have no choice, its like you want to give god credit for our screwups lol

god did not force judas to betray christ, judas chose it

no mystery there


here is the only scripture you need to refute much of what some of you are saying

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

so this is what some are trying to say is "great mystery" thats how it seems this verse is explained away.

he is not willing that any should perish -- straight up he doesnt want it to happen.

he wants all to come to repentance - not some but ALL

now please explain to me your view on that scripture,

fewarechosen
Aug 4th 2008, 07:46 PM
christ could have just said -- well god decided whos going to heaven and who is going to hell when he made you. so carry on whatever you do isnt important, its all been decided for you. im gonna make it sound really important that you do the right thing, but thats only cause i get a kick out of it. peace

sounds like lots of people just want to rest in the fact that they are saved. good thing im saved, my choices cant screw anything up, they arent really my choices after all gods calling all the shots, he must really love sin since he predestined so many to do it

BrckBrln
Aug 4th 2008, 10:20 PM
God is not a puppeteer sitting in Heaven pulling our strings and controlling everything we do. If you believe that then you need to reexamine your doctrine. There are so many holes in that kind of doctrine that it is not even possible to refute it all in just one post or even possibly a thread. The whole of scripture points to the fact that God redeems people back to him through Christ. So if he is just up in heaven pulling our strings and making all the decisions for us, then why did he send Jesus to redeem us?

Yeah, I said no such thing. I said that God can and does control some of our actions as clearly seen by scripture. And that this does not annul human responsibility.

BrckBrln
Aug 4th 2008, 10:27 PM
now please explain to me your view on that scripture,

I'm glad you brought that up.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4

But He is unique, and who can make Him change? And whatever His soul desires, that He does. Job 23:13

How do you reconcile these verses without being a universalist?

fewarechosen
Aug 4th 2008, 10:37 PM
I'm glad you brought that up.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4

But He is unique, and who can make Him change? And whatever His soul desires, that He does. Job 23:13

How do you reconcile these verses without being a universalist?

who said anything about universalists i was trying to get your understanding of that scripture, i have a very easy answer for this question but i want to wait for you to answer mine so we can stay on track.

BrckBrln
Aug 4th 2008, 10:40 PM
who said anything about universalists i was trying to get your understanding of that scripture, i have a very easy answer for this question but i want to wait for you to answer mine so we can stay on track.

My response is that not every time the word 'all' appears in scripture means every single person ever lived. If you do believe it means this, then how does that fit with the Job verse?

fewarechosen
Aug 4th 2008, 10:54 PM
My response is that not every time the word 'all' appears in scripture means every single person ever lived. If you do believe it means this, then how does that fit with the Job verse?

well we arent going to get past this point then, if you dont think "all people" in this scripture means "all people" then really no point in debating it

BrckBrln
Aug 4th 2008, 11:08 PM
well we arent going to get past this point then, if you dont think "all people" in this scripture means "all people" then really no point in debating it

I'm saying that sometimes 'all' doesn't mean every person ever lived. That can be backed up with scripture. I don't know if it's the case with this verse but that's why I want to see how you reconcile the Timothy verse with the Job verse.

TrustingFollower
Aug 5th 2008, 12:30 AM
How do you explain away John 1:12 from the Calvinist view point?

John 1:12 (NASB)
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Then explain to me why I would need to be adopted into being a Son of God if I was already predestined.

White Spider
Aug 5th 2008, 12:54 AM
I believe that God is in control over the world, that He doesn't just sit back and watch humans screw things up. I believe God can and does control our decisions. How often He does this, I don't know. I don't believe people create their own destinies.

He doesn't just sit back and watch humans screw things up.

So God screws things up? Is that what you're saying?

I mean there is no denying things are gettting perpetually worse.

White Spider
Aug 5th 2008, 01:11 AM
We are not making very much progress with this circular discussion we are having, so if everyone would refrain from replying to each other for a while why we try to focus in on the difference we are having I would appreciate it.

Ok so I think we all agree that God has full control over everything. The issue lies in whether God chooses our Salvation and how much of His control He exercises over us.

Please reply with one of the following:

Yes this is the difference we are discussing.

No, you may have started the thread, but you are completely lost now.


If we can focus this to one or two issues it will be much more effective, right now we are discussing a hundred similar areas and confusing them which is leading us nowhere.

fewarechosen
Aug 5th 2008, 01:16 AM
My response is that not every time the word 'all' appears in scripture means every single person ever lived. If you do believe it means this, then how does that fit with the Job verse?

he desires all men to be saved, but he desires them to do it of their own free will.

he wants us to love him freely, he doesnt want to force us to cry abba he wants us to do it of our own choice.

he gave us free will so we could choose to love him, so out of all the things we could choose in this world - we choose to love him.

he will present us with the path and the way and all things needed, we just have to do it :)

what do you think god wants more ?

to make someone who is forced to love him

or for someone who was free to not love him yet chose to love him

would you have more joy if you had to make all the right decisions for your child. or if he made all the right ones for himself. god gives us the ability to make the right ones now we have to do our part.

god invited us to the marriage supper, now its up to us if we come wearing a garment

BrckBrln
Aug 5th 2008, 01:31 AM
he desires all men to be saved, but he desires them to do it of their own free will.

he wants us to love him freely, he doesnt want to force us to cry abba he wants us to do it of our own choice.

he gave us free will so we could choose to love him, so out of all the things we could choose in this world - we choose to love him.

he will present us with the path and the way and all things needed, we just have to do it :)

what do you think god wants more ?

to make someone who is forced to love him

or for someone who was free to not love him yet chose to love him

would you have more joy if you had to make all the right decisions for your child. or if he made all the right ones for himself. god gives us the ability to make the right ones now we have to do our part.

god invited us to the marriage supper, now its up to us if we come wearing a garment

So you have no opinions on the Job verse?

BrckBrln
Aug 5th 2008, 01:34 AM
We are not making very much progress with this circular discussion we are having, so if everyone would refrain from replying to each other for a while why we try to focus in on the difference we are having I would appreciate it.

Ok so I think we all agree that God has full control over everything. The issue lies in whether God chooses our Salvation and how much of His control He exercises over us.

Please reply with one of the following:

Yes this is the difference we are discussing.

No, you may have started the thread, but you are completely lost now.


If we can focus this to one or two issues it will be much more effective, right now we are discussing a hundred similar areas and confusing them which is leading us nowhere.

Do you really believe that God has full control over His creation? If you do, then why is it so hard to believe that He has full (full in the sense that He can do whatever He wants) control over humans also?

Anyway, the issue is whether God chooses us for salvation or not. It's clear to me that God does choose us. If He didn't, we all would be in hell.

fewarechosen
Aug 5th 2008, 01:35 AM
So you have no opinions on the Job verse?

actually i thought my first sentence covered it.

i dont see a conflict at all.

Deuteronomy 30:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=30&verse=19&version=9&context=verse)
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

BrckBrln
Aug 5th 2008, 01:38 AM
actually i thought my first sentence covered it.

i dont see a conflict at all.

But Job says that what God desires, in this case the salvation of 'all' men, He will do.

fewarechosen
Aug 5th 2008, 01:46 AM
proverbs 1

24Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. 31Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.


Isaiah 65:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=65&verse=12&version=9&context=verse)
Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

fewarechosen
Aug 5th 2008, 01:50 AM
But Job says that what God desires, in this case the salvation of 'all' men, He will do.

thats looking it and taking man out of the equation, god gave man the ability to chose, he made man in his image.

in my opinion your looking at that legalisticly.

its like there is scripture that says with god all things are possible, yet other scripture that says god cannot lie.if i look at that in the same light i can say well then it is not possible for god to do all things.

look at some of the scripture i quoted and it might help, it points out we are choosing.

duet 30-19 covers it beautifully, he puts the choice in front of us, then tells us to choose

he didnt say i made this choice for you , or he didnt just set one tree.

BrckBrln
Aug 5th 2008, 01:53 AM
thats looking it and taking man out of the equation, god gave man the ability to chose, he made man in his image.

in my opinion your looking at that legalisticly.

its like there is scripture that says with god all things are possible, yet other scripture that says god cannot lie.if i look at that in the same light i can say well then it is not possible for god to do all things.

look at some of the scripture i quoted and it might help, it points out we are choosing.

:B

The problem is that you are only looking at one side of the coin, the human side. There is a divine side that we don't automatically recognize, that's why people don't believe it. If the scriptures tell me that man has a choice, and that God chooses man, then I will believe both as two sides of the same coin.

fewarechosen
Aug 5th 2008, 02:04 AM
:B

The problem is that you are only looking at one side of the coin, the human side. There is a divine side that we don't automatically recognize, that's why people don't believe it. If the scriptures tell me that man has a choice, and that God chooses man, then I will believe both as two sides of the same coin.

this sums it all up for me

Deuteronomy 30:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=30&verse=19&version=9&context=verse)
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

i am looking at both sides of the coin, but we have a different understanding of what -god choosing - us means

if god did not choose us, then he would have never even pointed out the choice in the scripture above.

we are invited to the wedding, its our choice to bring a garment

BrckBrln
Aug 5th 2008, 02:15 AM
this sums it all up for me

Deuteronomy 30:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=30&verse=19&version=9&context=verse)
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

i am looking at both sides of the coin, but we have a different understanding of what -god choosing - us means

if god did not choose us, then he would have never even pointed out the choice in the scripture above.

we are invited to the wedding, its our choice to bring a garment

Your opinion on God's choosing is not the correct one if I may say so. So your coin is not complete. :)

TrustingFollower
Aug 5th 2008, 02:30 AM
How do you explain away John 1:12 from the Calvinist view point?

John 1:12 (NASB)
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Then explain to me why I would need to be adopted into being a Son of God if I was already predestined.


Your opinion on God's choosing is not the correct one if I may say so. So your coin is not complete. :)

Perhaps you would take a stab at the questions I posed earlier. I quoted them for your convince.

White Spider
Aug 5th 2008, 02:32 AM
I guess no one can read, I think that may be the problem with this entire thing :lol: you all need to read so you can see what the Bible really says.

Kidding, but I was trying to get this thread (my thread) focused, I am glad you are discussing this topic, but neither of you are getting anywhere as I was not when I was discussing it. So can I please get some cooperation in getting this headed in a helpful direction.

Thank You

TrustingFollower
Aug 5th 2008, 02:38 AM
I guess no one can read, I think that may be the problem with this entire thing :lol: you all need to read so you can see what the Bible really says.

Kidding, but I was trying to get this thread (my thread) focused, I am glad you are discussing this topic, but neither of you are getting anywhere as I was not when I was discussing it. So can I please get some cooperation in getting this headed in a helpful direction.

Thank You
Every post of mine has been on your topic from your original post. You asked if we choose or if God chooses for us. That is what I am attempting to address by refuting the false doctrine of the Calvinist belief. So if you have a problem with that and would rather have the doctrine dominate the thread then I will gladly leave the discussion.

BrckBrln
Aug 5th 2008, 02:40 AM
I guess no one can read, I think that may be the problem with this entire thing :lol: you all need to read so you can see what the Bible really says.

Kidding, but I was trying to get this thread (my thread) focused, I am glad you are discussing this topic, but neither of you are getting anywhere as I was not when I was discussing it. So can I please get some cooperation in getting this headed in a helpful direction.

Thank You

These threads always get off course. I've presented scripture to back my claim up. It seems others just use some, seemingly contradictory, scripture and say they are the true ones. Like I said before, this coin has two different sides, it's not a Harvey Dent coin. :)

White Spider
Aug 5th 2008, 04:18 AM
I would like all of you to stay in the discussion, it's just circular discussion is not doing anything, I've done the circle three times at least and now you are all through a cycle and a half. I merely want to focus this.

Alright so, we all agree God is Almighty and has full control of everything yes?

Can we start with that please.

TrustingFollower
Aug 5th 2008, 04:36 AM
I would like all of you to stay in the discussion, it's just circular discussion is not doing anything, I've done the circle three times at least and now you are all through a cycle and a half. I merely want to focus this.

Alright so, we all agree God is Almighty and has full control of everything yes?

Can we start with that please.

I agree with you here God is almighty. Now let me ask you this. From the very foundation of the world how did God intend to redeem man to himself? Was this world ever intended to be perfect from the beginning and be redeemed through Adam or was it always intended to be through Christ? Lets look into the scriptures and find the answer.

Revinius
Aug 5th 2008, 04:55 AM
The reason this whole thing is circular is you guys either arent fully reading or just arent getting what we are saying. We do not deny that there is choice. But God is also completely sovereign and has to elect those who are so completely depraved they cant reach Him. Both seeming opposites co-exist together in biblical harmony. Reaching an impasse ok wisdom is not a cop-out, but rather an acknowledgement that God is in fact beyond such reason as ours.

So, if you have biblical evidence that denies election, not just presents the flip side of choice that we already acknowledge as being there, then please show us.

White Spider
Aug 5th 2008, 01:02 PM
We are not denying election from God, but we are saying He elects all of us and then it is our choice to accept the job He has elected us for.

fewarechosen
Aug 5th 2008, 01:20 PM
god is all mighty, the second part of your question is what gets people into trouble. him being in controll of everything- sure he has full authority and can do whatever he wants, but is he the one in controll of a person when they choose sin ? he made us in his image, he allows us to have a form of controll over what he sees fit, god is not choosing sin.

now what i see from brck and rev, this is not any sort of attack but it appears you both have said basically -you dont get it- so this is to help explain my view. to me it appears you have both read books on the subject and or learned it from another man and adopted this viewpoint as your own, now i notice any scripture i had posted about us having a choice is basically ignored and then its said im only looking at one side of the coin.those scriptures dont contradict at all what your saying.

i think the whole difference is understanding of the term predestination, its seems you sort of believe that god created men and decided before they ever had a choice who was going to heaven and who was going to hell, then told them they had a choice even though they didnt.

i have some last questions, do i have a choice in front of me? do i have life and death to choose from ? is that choice fully mine given to me by god to freely choose life or death. or did he just say that and predetermine for me which one i would pick and hes just sort of acting like i have a choice.

9Marksfan
Aug 5th 2008, 01:39 PM
How do you explain away John 1:12 from the Calvinist view point?

John 1:12 (NASB)
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Then explain to me why I would need to be adopted into being a Son of God if I was already predestined.

Time I chimed in here - first of all, I'm delighted that you have correctly interpreted the phrase "become the children of God" as adoption, not regeneration (as many do). The thing is that ALL of us were children of wrath - as Eph 2 makes clear - EVEN those of us who were chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world! That condemnation remains in place until our election (divine side) is "activated" ie we freely CHOOSE to believe in Christ (human side). But WHY do we choose, after having resisted for so long? What makes the difference? Is it not that our hearts have been changed towards Christ, our eyes opened and our ears unstopped, so that we HEAR and SEE who Christ is for the first time and WANT to believe, when before we either weren't interested or - worse - HATED the thought of coming to Christ?

The thing is that Rom 8:29-30 (and other passages) make clear that there is an order in salvation - theologians call it the ordo salutis - believers are predestined, yes, but they also have to be called, justified and glorified. I believe the order is as follows:-

Election/foreknowledge

Predestination

Effectual calling/regeneration

Justification

Adoption

Sanctification

Glorification

And that has been standard Reformed doctrine for around 500 years. But Augustine taught these things in the 5th century too, so it's nothing new. Arminian doctrine (held by most folk on this thread, apart from myself and a few others) is humanistic and fails to grasp the extent of man's fallenness and pretty much makes an idol of free will, so that man is always the one who is ultimately in control of his own destiny - Scripture does not teach this.

Could anyone cite even one verse from the Scriptures that teaches that man HAS unfettered free will, as taught by White Spider and others?

fewarechosen
Aug 5th 2008, 01:47 PM
Time I chimed in here - first of all, I'm delighted that you have correctly interpreted the phrase "become the children of God" as adoption, not regeneration (as many do). The thing is that ALL of us were children of wrath - as Eph 2 makes clear - EVEN those of us who were chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world! That condemnation remains in place until our election (divine side) is "activated" ie we freely CHOOSE to believe in Christ (human side). But WHY do we choose, after having resisted for so long? What makes the difference? Is it not that our hearts have been changed towards Christ, our eyes opened and our ears unstopped, so that we HEAR and SEE who Christ is for the first time and WANT to believe, when before we either weren't interested or - worse - HATED the thought of coming to Christ?

The thing is that Rom 8:29-30 (and other passages) make clear that there is an order in salvation - theologians call it the ordo salutis - believers are predestined, yes, but they also have to be called, justified and glorified. I believe the order is as follows:-

Election/foreknowledge

Predestination

Effectual calling/regeneration

Justification

Adoption

Sanctification

Glorification

And that has been standard Reformed doctrine for around 500 years. But Augustine taught these things in the 5th century too, so it's nothing new. Arminian doctrine (held by most folk on this thread, apart from myself and a few others) is humanistic and fails to grasp the extent of man's fallenness and pretty much makes an idol of free will, so that man is always the one who is ultimately in control of his own destiny - Scripture does not teach this.

Could anyone cite even one verse from the Scriptures that teaches that man HAS unfettered free will, as taught by White Spider and others?

its not unfetterd free will, he put a choice of 2 things in front of us then said choose. we do not have free will to do anything outside of that, we arent god, we cant say you know what i have free will im gonna make this whole thing go away, what god gave us free will to do is to chose good or evil, life or death , thats it. we arent free willed like god to create planets and smash universes,he has unfettered free will, we have free will in choosing between what he set up.

9Marksfan
Aug 5th 2008, 01:50 PM
its not unfetterd free will, he put a choice of 2 things in front of us then said choose. we do not have free will to do anything outside of that, we arent god, we cant say you know what i have free will im gonna make this whole thing go away, what god gave us free will to do is to chose good or evil, life or death , thats it. we arent free willed like god to create planets and smash universes,he has unfettered free will, we have free will in choosing between what he set up.

OK - do you accept that to choose God is a good thing - in fact the ULTIMATE good thing that we can do?

BrckBrln
Aug 5th 2008, 02:06 PM
We are not denying election from God, but we are saying He elects all of us and then it is our choice to accept the job He has elected us for.

Some scripture would be nice.

And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. Matthew 24:22

This clearly sets the elect apart from the non-elect i.e. the not saved. So if God elects all of us then how does that fit with this verse?

White Spider
Aug 5th 2008, 04:55 PM
Just want to make clear I am teaching nothing here, just asking questions until I get an answer that explains away my current beliefs.

I am certainly not teaching anything.

And for BrckBrln, I as well as others on this thread have given you scripture. I don't think any verse I or anyone else puts before you will make you even consider our view point. So I am not going to waste my or your time giving verses you will only read to say they don't prove anything.

If I find a verse that says clearly, "God made man and gave them the choice to save themselves through accepting Christ which I sent for them." I will post it as that is the only verse you will accept, but even then you may fin a way to say it's a one sided coin.

BrckBrln
Aug 5th 2008, 05:06 PM
Just want to make clear I am teaching nothing here, just asking questions until I get an answer that explains away my current beliefs.

I am certainly not teaching anything.

And for BrckBrln, I as well as others on this thread have given you scripture. I don't think any verse I or anyone else puts before you will make you even consider our view point. So I am not going to waste my or your time giving verses you will only read to say they don't prove anything.

If I find a verse that says clearly, "God made man and gave them the choice to save themselves through accepting Christ which I sent for them." I will post it as that is the only verse you will accept, but even then you may fin a way to say it's a one sided coin.

:B:B:B

At least I have an explanation for those verses. The verses I post are just ignored or countered with other scriptures as if they cancel out. Doesn't matter though. I hate these discussions. I'm gonna bail out. :giveup:

TrustingFollower
Aug 5th 2008, 05:12 PM
Ephesians 1:3-14 (KJV)
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Who is Paul speaking of here when he refers to us? He is speaking of all mankind.

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Again who is Paul referring to here with the word us? Again he is referring to all of mankind.

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Who is predestined here? All mankind is predestined to be reconciled through Christ.

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Again the us is referring to all of mankind, that we will be accepted in the beloved. The beloved here is Christ.

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

All of mankind is redeemed through Christ and all of our sins are forgiven through Christ.

8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Jesus made known to us (all mankind) the mystery of the gospel. The mystery being that Jesus came to the earth to die for us as a redeeming sacrifice for us (all mankind) so we can be fully reconciled to God through Christ.

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

This explains that from the foundation of the world that God had a plan to redeem mankind through Christ. When the end times come God is going to gather together all that is in Christ, those that are still on this earth and those that have already gone to rest in the Lord.

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

This is where this all gets really cool. This is where we become the elect because we chose Christ. When we choose Christ to be our Lord then we are adopted into being a son of God.

John 1:12
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

So from all that has been presented here we can see that God did not predestine individuals as some think, but he predestined all of mankind to be saved through Christ. If it were not true then we would have no need for a savior, no need to have our sins forgiven, and no need to be adopted into the family of God. We become God's elect when we chose Christ to rule and reign in our lives and humble ourselves before God.

BroRog
Aug 5th 2008, 07:08 PM
Jesus says a man must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven. If my first birth wasn't my idea or in my power, what makes me think my being born again is my idea or in my power?

9Marksfan
Aug 5th 2008, 08:13 PM
Jesus says a man must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven. If my first birth wasn't my idea or in my power, what makes me think my being born again is my idea or in my power?

Amen - well said!

White Spider
Aug 6th 2008, 12:27 AM
I deeply appreciated your post "TrustingFollower"

It was very good and helps me better understand my own position.

(Which happens to be yours, or very close.)

Revinius
Aug 6th 2008, 03:38 AM
Ephesians 1:3-14 (KJV)
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Who is Paul speaking of here when he refers to us? He is speaking of all mankind.

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Again who is Paul referring to here with the word us? Again he is referring to all of mankind.

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Who is predestined here? All mankind is predestined to be reconciled through Christ.

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Again the us is referring to all of mankind, that we will be accepted in the beloved. The beloved here is Christ.

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

All of mankind is redeemed through Christ and all of our sins are forgiven through Christ.

8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Jesus made known to us (all mankind) the mystery of the gospel. The mystery being that Jesus came to the earth to die for us as a redeeming sacrifice for us (all mankind) so we can be fully reconciled to God through Christ.

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

This explains that from the foundation of the world that God had a plan to redeem mankind through Christ. When the end times come God is going to gather together all that is in Christ, those that are still on this earth and those that have already gone to rest in the Lord.

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

This is where this all gets really cool. This is where we become the elect because we chose Christ. When we choose Christ to be our Lord then we are adopted into being a son of God.

John 1:12
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

So from all that has been presented here we can see that God did not predestine individuals as some think, but he predestined all of mankind to be saved through Christ. If it were not true then we would have no need for a savior, no need to have our sins forgiven, and no need to be adopted into the family of God. We become God's elect when we chose Christ to rule and reign in our lives and humble ourselves before God.

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.


None of Mankind are his sheep unless they have relationship. I think your view minimalises God in the sense that you make His plan seem somewhat vague. You make it look like we are the ones who choose to be born again, that God is our puppet, who bends to our will.

TrustingFollower
Aug 6th 2008, 04:51 AM
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.


None of Mankind are his sheep unless they have relationship. I think your view minimalises God in the sense that you make His plan seem somewhat vague. You make it look like we are the ones who choose to be born again, that God is our puppet, who bends to our will.

I don't understand what you are saying, would you clarify it a little more for me? I don't see where you say that I am making God our puppet and making him bend to our will at all. So if you would explain your view a little more for me I would appreciate that.

Studyin'2Show
Aug 6th 2008, 11:31 AM
In answer to the OP question, God's choice or my choice, my answer is yes! Making it an either or answer is what I see as the problem. :dunno:

God Bless!

Brother Mark
Aug 6th 2008, 12:02 PM
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.


None of Mankind are his sheep unless they have relationship. I think your view minimalises God in the sense that you make His plan seem somewhat vague. You make it look like we are the ones who choose to be born again, that God is our puppet, who bends to our will.

Actually, God is the one who set up the whole system. Romans 9 says that Israel was rejected because they did not come to him on the basis of faith. So it is not God that bends to our will but us to him. He said "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy". And who is it that he has mercy on? Those who believe. He will reject even the chosen elect (i.e. Israel) if they do not come to him in faith.

Rom 9:30-32

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
NASB

Israel thought because they were chosen that they could have their own righteousness. But God did not bend to their will. He still said it is by faith.

Revinius
Aug 6th 2008, 01:57 PM
I don't understand what you are saying, would you clarify it a little more for me? I don't see where you say that I am making God our puppet and making him bend to our will at all. So if you would explain your view a little more for me I would appreciate that.

Well your view of sovereigntly minimalises God. The God you describe isn't all powerful and he doesnt predestine those who come to Him. Your 'interpretation' conflicts with many parts of scripture such as:

John 9:1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

This man had been predestined to be blind, so that God might be displayed to those who see (and read).

I am just at a loss for why and how you believe what you believe. What motivation is there for 'reinterpreting' such passages as Ephesians 1? Does the thought of election scare you?

Revinius
Aug 6th 2008, 02:07 PM
Actually, God is the one who set up the whole system. Romans 9 says that Israel was rejected because they did not come to him on the basis of faith. So it is not God that bends to our will but us to him. He said "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy". And who is it that he has mercy on? Those who believe. He will reject even the chosen elect (i.e. Israel) if they do not come to him in faith.

Rom 9:30-32

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
NASB

Israel thought because they were chosen that they could have their own righteousness. But God did not bend to their will. He still said it is by faith.

Please read through the whole thread. I keep having to reiterate (as all the other's who support a position similar to men like Calvin) that we are not claiming sovereignty cancels out choice. The two truth's coexist in what humans would consider irrational harmony (but God is not confined to our reason). The fact that choice exists is not proof that election does not. Find us a passage denying election that contradicts the plain language of Ephesians 1 or Romans 8 and we can talk further on it. Other than that we are through talking of this as i am getting dizzy from the circles.

Brother Mark
Aug 6th 2008, 02:13 PM
Please read through the whole thread. I keep having to reiterate (as all the other's who support a position similar to men like Calvin) that we are not claiming sovereignty cancels out choice. The two truth's coexist in what humans would consider irrational harmony (but God is not confined to our reason). The fact that choice exists is not proof that election does not. Find us a passage denying election that contradicts the plain language of Ephesians 1 or Romans 8 and we can talk further on it. Other than that we are through talking of this as i am getting dizzy from the circles.

Why would I cancel out election? God elected Israel, then cut them off. But they were still chosen. Election is scriptural. So is the gospel call to all men. All men can be saved but all won't be. The ditch for election is to believe that only some can come to God instead of believing only some will come to God.

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 02:16 PM
all i know is im glad i never read calvin, it looks like he leads many astray.


we have scripture saying god gave us a choice

that does not rob him of any power

he can do or undo whatever he wants, he does not want any to sin but we choose too

servantsheart
Aug 6th 2008, 02:36 PM
I believe that God is in control over the world, that He doesn't just sit back and watch humans screw things up. I believe God can and does control our decisions. How often He does this, I don't know. I don't believe people create their own destinies.
God does not force himself upon anyone of his created beings.
He gave everyone a free will. If someone decides not to give their free will over to him (NOT to ask him into their life), then God is not under any obligation to help them...but yes, I think if they know enough to pray to him, say, during a tramatic event....then he could choose to help if he thinks it would bring them to him..or he can decide not to do anything at all and let them work things out the best they can. God is no respector of persons.
So if you hang onto your free will you are out from under God's protection. You are open to attact from the evilness of satan and the other fallen angels. YOU are creating your own destiny.

White Spider
Aug 6th 2008, 02:37 PM
I want to say that I don't think "election" scares any of us.

What does scare us is having absolutely no control over anything, because if God controls everything we do, God and us no longer exist. (If you want me to explain that I will, just ask)

Now some are saying election and choice coexist, which I agree with. Though some who believe this still believe our faith is not our choice, which I strongly disagree with.

God gave us all the choice to accept Christ as our Savior . . . He does not accept Christ into our hearts for us.

Now because God gives us a little control over our own lives does not mean I have a small God or a weak God. God is still all powerful in my mind and has full control over everything, He just does not exercise His full control over us all. He allows us to choose our own paths.

Revinius
Aug 6th 2008, 06:02 PM
oh you have choice, but that choice has the overriding governance of your creator, and although you think that governance conflicts with the notion of choice, that is something that the Word holds in standing: accountability and predestination. Those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. See a recurring theme there?


a all i know is im glad i never read calvin, it looks like he leads many astray.


we have scripture saying god gave us a choice

that does not rob him of any power

he can do or undo whatever he wants, he does not want any to sin but we choose too

How very ignorant of you to judge someone before giving their words a chance or to indeed look at how they lived. Those are the sort of Words unbelievers use in reference to the Bible... which they have usually never read either.

As for choice, go read my other posts regarding choice as being central biblically. Try to explain away predestination and you have my ears.


He gave everyone a free will.

Wow, so i can fly if i will it? Will has limits friend, just as choice does.


Why would I cancel out election? God elected Israel, then cut them off. But they were still chosen. Election is scriptural. So is the gospel call to all men. All men can be saved but all won't be. The ditch for election is to believe that only some can come to God instead of believing only some will come to God.

This is a different can of worms but Israel is not the bloodline of Abraham, Israel are those God has predestined to have faith in Him which happen to include a large portion of Abrahams bloodline. The new covenant brings an Israel encompassing Gentiles also (start another thread on this if you wish but otherwise lets leave it there) -> God doesnt unchoose people. He either reaches out and grips their heart or they stay wallowing in their own self-rightious sin, completely depraved.

Brother Mark
Aug 6th 2008, 06:14 PM
This is a different can of worms but Israel is not the bloodline of Abraham, Israel are those God has predestined to have faith in Him which happen to include a large portion of Abrahams bloodline.

Replacement theology is a natural out spring of pure election. It has to be. That's part of my issue with it. I would prefer to leave mystery where mystery is left in scripture. I know that not all of Israel is spiritual Israel. Yet, Paul wrote that God was going to keep his promises concerning the bloodline of Israel.

Anyway, the point I was making was what you alluded to. If being chosen and being elected is a guarantee of salvation, then Israel would be saved. As a necessity, if we hold to that view of election, we must change who Israel is.

In much the same way, some Calvinist will change the meaning of the word "world" where 1 John 2 says Jesus is the propitiation for our sins and for the whole world and then we have limited atonement.

Spurgeon is one of my favorite writers. He handled the dilemma this way when someone asked him the difference between God's election and man's choice, which is similar to how you phrase it; "why divide brothers" or something of that sort. He goes on later to say to people "God has his elect. Why don't you be one of them?" While I am not completely familiar with all his theology, it seems to me that he is leaving room for any man to accept the gospel. That would be in keeping with many verses in scripture. On the other hand, God does have his elect.

Can all men be saved? Yes. But some take election so far as to say "No. Only some can be saved. The rest are made for hell." Yet, God said that hell was made for the devil and his angels.

In the end, I would prefer to take John 3:16 at face value and preach it to the whole world. For the whole world can be saved, though it will not be. God's offer of salvation can be accepted by all, though all will not accept it.

White Spider
Aug 6th 2008, 10:24 PM
oh you have choice, but that choice has the overriding governance of your creator, and although you think that governance conflicts with the notion of choice, that is something that the Word holds in standing: accountability and predestination. Those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. See a recurring theme there?

How does my having choice override God's governance if He gave me choice? Is it not by God's governance that I have the choice.

I agree with your belief that election and choice co-exist Revinius, but you seem to go as far as saying that one can only be saved if God predestined them to be saved. Which I see no scriptural support for. If you believe choice and election co-exist why do you cut away our ability to choose?

Revinius
Aug 7th 2008, 04:16 AM
Replacement theology is a natural out spring of pure election. It has to be. That's part of my issue with it. I would prefer to leave mystery where mystery is left in scripture. I know that not all of Israel is spiritual Israel. Yet, Paul wrote that God was going to keep his promises concerning the bloodline of Israel.

Anyway, the point I was making was what you alluded to. If being chosen and being elected is a guarantee of salvation, then Israel would be saved. As a necessity, if we hold to that view of election, we must change who Israel is.

In much the same way, some Calvinist will change the meaning of the word "world" where 1 John 2 says Jesus is the propitiation for our sins and for the whole world and then we have limited atonement.

Spurgeon is one of my favorite writers. He handled the dilemma this way when someone asked him the difference between God's election and man's choice, which is similar to how you phrase it; "why divide brothers" or something of that sort. He goes on later to say to people "God has his elect. Why don't you be one of them?" While I am not completely familiar with all his theology, it seems to me that he is leaving room for any man to accept the gospel. That would be in keeping with many verses in scripture. On the other hand, God does have his elect.

Can all men be saved? Yes. But some take election so far as to say "No. Only some can be saved. The rest are made for hell." Yet, God said that hell was made for the devil and his angels.

In the end, I would prefer to take John 3:16 at face value and preach it to the whole world. For the whole world can be saved, though it will not be. God's offer of salvation can be accepted by all, though all will not accept it.

I respect you moderation, and as far as Arminians go in this thread, your view i think is more godly focused.

Thanks for the input.

Revinius
Aug 7th 2008, 04:22 AM
How does my having choice override God's governance if He gave me choice? Is it not by God's governance that I have the choice.

I agree with your belief that election and choice co-exist Revinius, but you seem to go as far as saying that one can only be saved if God predestined them to be saved. Which I see no scriptural support for. If you believe choice and election co-exist why do you cut away our ability to choose?

How do i cut away choice by simply taking verses like Ephesians 1 and Romans 8:30 to be literal and personal? From our perspective we have inherent choice and part of coming to God is to put faith in Him. But in the same sense, God being God reveals himself to those he chooses. We are so up to our eyeballs in sin that we cannot comprehend the Grace of God without his intercession. After intercession by God has occured then relationship and choice to submit can follow.

I will reiterate as i pointed out at the beginning of this thread, that elevating us to level of comprehending God independent of Him makes out sin look much less petty... and that is a dangerous view to hold (where do you draw the line? can we then rescue ourselves having comprehended our state?).

Understand where i am getting at with that?

Studyin'2Show
Aug 7th 2008, 11:08 AM
I respect you moderation, and as far as Arminians go in this thread, your view i think is more godly focused. Just curiously, is everyone who is not a Calvinist in your view an Arminian? :hmm: I was just wondering because I know I don't consider myself either a Calvinist or Arminian and I don't believe Mark does either. I just don't believe either explains things perfectly. :dunno:

Brother Mark
Aug 7th 2008, 12:42 PM
Just curiously, is everyone who is not a Calvinist in your view an Arminian? :hmm: I was just wondering because I know I don't consider myself either a Calvinist or Arminian and I don't believe Mark does either. I just don't believe either explains things perfectly. :dunno:

I am with you on this one. I think both camps leave much to be desired when it comes to the whole word.

Revinius
Aug 7th 2008, 02:59 PM
I consider anything that discounts from the sovereignty of God as being an untruth. Sorry if i attached the blanket label of 'arminian' to that.

Brother Mark
Aug 7th 2008, 03:05 PM
I consider anything that discounts from the sovereignty of God as being an untruth. Sorry if i attached the blanket label of 'arminian' to that.

I would agree with that statement. However, I don't buy the view of some calvinist when it comes to sovereignty. Some make God a puppet to his will and make sovereignty itself God instead of God himself.

For instance, God can sovereignly declare that salvation comes through faith and then give man faith and a choice. he has not become less sovereign because man, any man, can make a choice concerning God when God draws him. Yet, this view in the minds of some means God is not sovereign. I disagree with them.

Revinius
Aug 7th 2008, 03:16 PM
I would agree with that statement. However, I don't buy the view of some calvinist when it comes to sovereignty. Some make God a puppet to his will and make sovereignty itself God instead of God himself.

For instance, God can sovereignly declare that salvation comes through faith and then give man faith and a choice. he has not become less sovereign because man, any man, can make a choice concerning God when God draws him. Yet, this view in the minds of some means God is not sovereign. I disagree with them.

That's ok, but i think deep down (and given all the passages we have spewed out in this thread) God is sovereign over ALL. That includes the irresistability of His pull and the total depravity of myself before He calls me. It's a catch 22 that when he reveals Himself, i cannot help but desire Him.

Brother Mark
Aug 7th 2008, 03:55 PM
That's ok, but i think deep down (and given all the passages we have spewed out in this thread) God is sovereign over ALL. That includes the irresistability of His pull and the total depravity of myself before He calls me. It's a catch 22 that when he reveals Himself, i cannot help but desire Him.

I don't have an issue with irresistable grace. I think it hard to argue that Paul was given a "choice" or John the Baptist or even Jeremiah who was called from the womb. But to apply that doctrine all across the board and to all men, that is where I think it gets out of hand. Look at what Jesus said about Sodom

Matt 11:23-24
23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
NKJV

Jesus rightly recognized that had Sodom seen some things, she would have repented. Yet, the grace with which he called her at the time did not overwhelm her and she was destroyed.

Like I said before, sovereignty has become such a big issue with some Calvinist, that they have gone, IMO, beyond what the scriptures teach and become totally one sided. It seems to me that they have made God captive to his own will. For instance, some say God desires all men to be saved. But that he wills it differently. So they have decided that God wills himself or forces himself to go against his holy, Godly, and heart felt desire. If I go against the desires of God, it is called sin. Why would God go against his holy, heartfelt, Godly heart and what it desires by forcing himself to do something totally contrary to his desire? In other words, he would have to create someone for the specific purpose of hell, which in his heart, he didn't want to do.

I don't see God bound to his will. I see his will bound to Himself.

Studyin'2Show
Aug 7th 2008, 05:27 PM
That's ok, but i think deep down (and given all the passages we have spewed out in this thread) God is sovereign over ALL. That includes the irresistability of His pull and the total depravity of myself before He calls me. It's a catch 22 that when he reveals Himself, i cannot help but desire Him.Yet God spoke to them all at Sinai, but only Moses drew near.

Exodus 20:18-21
18 Now all the people witnessed the thunderings, the lightning flashes, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood afar off. 19 Then they said to Moses, “You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.”
20 And Moses said to the people, “Do not fear; for God has come to test you, and that His fear may be before you, so that you may not sin.” 21 So the people stood afar off, but Moses drew near the thick darkness where God was.

They saw His mighty works! They heard Him! And yet they did not draw near but rather stood afar off and replaced the presence of God with the presence of Moses; by CHOICE!

White Spider
Aug 7th 2008, 06:08 PM
How do i cut away choice by simply taking verses like Ephesians 1 and Romans 8:30 to be literal and personal? From our perspective we have inherent choice and part of coming to God is to put faith in Him. But in the same sense, God being God reveals himself to those he chooses. We are so up to our eyeballs in sin that we cannot comprehend the Grace of God without his intercession. After intercession by God has occured then relationship and choice to submit can follow.

I will reiterate as i pointed out at the beginning of this thread, that elevating us to level of comprehending God independent of Him makes out sin look much less petty... and that is a dangerous view to hold (where do you draw the line? can we then rescue ourselves having comprehended our state?).

Understand where i am getting at with that?

I think so . . . and I agree, God must be there to show us who He is, that's the Holy Spirit's job in my opinion, but we don't have the Holy Spirit until we accept Christ into our hearts. It is first our choice to take the leap of faith. People who have God often help those who don't take that first step in which they can then begin to fully understand. Though you still seem to believe we can only choose God if He first chooses us, and that He only chooses some. I think He has chosen everyone in the world, not just a few. I mean He told us to spread the Gospel to the "whole world" right? He sent Christ to save the "world" did He not? The only area I think we disagree on is who God chose . . . everyone or a select few.

White Spider
Aug 7th 2008, 06:14 PM
That's ok, but i think deep down (and given all the passages we have spewed out in this thread) God is sovereign over ALL. That includes the irresistability of His pull and the total depravity of myself before He calls me. It's a catch 22 that when he reveals Himself, i cannot help but desire Him.

So how do you argue this with Christians who turn away from God.

What exactly is the pull of God that is so irresistible?

My sister grew up in a Christian household with Christian friends and is now lesbian who is semi-anti-god . . . Some of her earlier friends are now missionaries, her aunt and uncle were missionaries, even her wife's parents are religious Catholics . . . but according to you God's irresistible pull is not there? I strongly disagree with that. She simply has made the choice to live her own lifestyle instead of God's . . . it is not because God doesn't want her.

So what exactly do you mean by we choose God because of His irresistible pull? It seems He pulls as hard as He possibly can on some people yet they still don't choose Him.

TrustingFollower
Aug 8th 2008, 01:55 AM
Well your view of sovereigntly minimalises God. The God you describe isn't all powerful and he doesnt predestine those who come to Him. Your 'interpretation' conflicts with many parts of scripture such as:

John 9:1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

This man had been predestined to be blind, so that God might be displayed to those who see (and read).

I am just at a loss for why and how you believe what you believe. What motivation is there for 'reinterpreting' such passages as Ephesians 1? Does the thought of election scare you?
I am glad that you brought this passage up, it is a great example of how the Ephesians 1 has been read wrong for far too long. We need to look at the scriptures as a whole and see them for what they are. The scriptures were not given to us to teach us the things of this world, but rather the things of the world to come, i.e. the spiritual realm. Jesus came here for the reason to save us from the judgment that we rightly deserve from God and to teach us the mystery of the spiritual realm that is the realm of God. In order to understand this concept we need to see a few scriptures first.

Genesis 1:26 (NASB)
26Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

John 4:24 (NASB)
24"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

So if we are made in the likeness of God and God is a spirit then we can also presume that we are also spirit.

Now as to the passage you brought to the conversation.

John 9:1-3
1As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. 2And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?"
3Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.


This passage is not about the man being predestined to being blind physically in this world. That is a given and is being used to teach all of us a lesson. This man represents all of us and how we are all blind to the mystery of the spiritual realm. When Jesus heals this man it is a physical sign to the people of how he is also healing us of our spiritual blindness. We are all born with the blindness of what it is all about. This world is not all there is.

1 Corinthians 15:50
50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

We all will die, providing Jesus does not come back first and we live through the tribulation. Our spirits will be the ones that will be held accountable on the day of judgment and our spirits will be the ones that bring glory to God when this world is all over. God sent his son not to condemn this world, but to save it.

John 3:17 (NASB)
17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Salvation is available to all that choose to believe in Jesus. We have to make the choice and have faith in him first.