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talmidim
Aug 2nd 2008, 03:37 PM
Greeting and Blessings in His Name,

It is my hope that we can discuss this important issue with an open heart and mind. Because I can't help but think that some of us are short changing ourselves.

I have never understood why, if someone has proof of a particular tribulation belief, does it automatically disprove another? So let's honestly dissect this issue. How does a mid-trib or post-trib or pre-trib belief disprove any of the other tribulation beliefs of this category? Please back up you position with appropriate scripture, in context. And remember, it doesn't matter if your belief is right. It only matters how your belief disproves another.

Because of the nature of this discussion, I will respectfully ask that those that do not believe in a rapture or a literal 7-year tribulation period, please refrain from posting, as those views are moot to the point of this discussion. Thanks you.

carboy
Aug 2nd 2008, 08:58 PM
Actually the way the Bible seems to read to me sets pre, mid, and post aside.

With the resurrection/rapture happening sometime during the "Time of Jacobs trouble". I believe Jacobs trouble to be the second half of the 70th week.

This scripture is something I would like commentary on because I have not seen or heard, not that anyone hasn't, I don't read much commentary, anyone using it in a resurrection sense. But it states, in its' prophetic language, a picture of the future departing to be with the Saviour.

Micah 7:8-10

Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me. I will bear the indignation of the LORD , because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his righteousness. Then she that is my enemy shall see it, and shame shall cover her which said to me, Where is the LORD thy God? mine eyes shall behold her: now shall she be trodden down as mire of the streets.

The statement "he will bring me forth" is the word yatsa, strong's #3318. Same word used for Rahab in Joshua 6:18.

There is typology such as ' if I shall fall, I will arise" resurrection, and others you can enjoy, but I'm interested more in what you all may think of this.

So I hope this post falls in the guidelines to disprove but the hitch is that I don't follow any of them. And by the way I don't know much about pre-wrath so that isn't where I'm coming from. As I have said this seems to me a simple thing. It's just how this event reads to me.

I put this scripture up to start with because it's different and fits with this because he speaks of darkness, not in a maybe sense but in the sense of when. The darkness we all experience at some point and the future prophetic time of darkness.

In Peace,

obeytheword
Aug 3rd 2008, 02:21 AM
Greeting and Blessings in His Name,

It is my hope that we can discuss this important issue with an open heart and mind. Because I can't help but think that some of us are short changing ourselves.

I have never understood why, if someone has proof of a particular tribulation belief, does it automatically disprove another? So let's honestly dissect this issue. How does a mid-trib or post-trib or pre-trib belief disprove any of the other tribulation beliefs of this category? Please back up you position with appropriate scripture, in context. And remember, it doesn't matter if your belief is right. It only matters how your belief disproves another.

Because of the nature of this discussion, I will respectfully ask that those that do not believe in a rapture or a literal 7-year tribulation period, please refrain from posting, as those views are moot to the point of this discussion. Thanks you.


I believe the first question is this:

Will there be one or more raptures? If multiple raptures, then we should have some fruitful discussion.

However, if there is one rapture (which I personally believe), then only one position can be correct, and the other two cannot be correct. So yes, belief in one means it is not possible for another one to be correct.

If I may ask, do you believe scripture shows us there is one or more than one "rapture"?

Be Blessed!

Literalist-Luke
Aug 3rd 2008, 05:57 AM
Greeting and Blessings in His Name,

It is my hope that we can discuss this important issue with an open heart and mind. Because I can't help but think that some of us are short changing ourselves.

I have never understood why, if someone has proof of a particular tribulation belief, does it automatically disprove another? So let's honestly dissect this issue. How does a mid-trib or post-trib or pre-trib belief disprove any of the other tribulation beliefs of this category? Please back up you position with appropriate scripture, in context. And remember, it doesn't matter if your belief is right. It only matters how your belief disproves another.

Because of the nature of this discussion, I will respectfully ask that those that do not believe in a rapture or a literal 7-year tribulation period, please refrain from posting, as those views are moot to the point of this discussion. Thanks you.
Oh boy, here we go again..........:giveup:

vinsight4u8
Aug 3rd 2008, 08:36 AM
1 Cor. 15:54 shows how many last trump times there can be.

one
one resurrection of the just
after that no believers will ever die again

death is swallowed up in victory

only wicked people will yet die

vinsight4u8
Aug 3rd 2008, 09:21 AM
Just put Hebrews 9:28 and Rev. 19:1 together.
Jesus appears at the time of salvation.

The wicked city that did corrupt the earth is avenged.
Look at Rev. 19:2

It is impossible for there to be a pre-rib rapture.
The last martyr for Jesus will die before He returns.

talmidim
Aug 4th 2008, 07:39 PM
Actually the way the Bible seems to read to me sets pre, mid, and post aside.

With the resurrection/rapture happening sometime during the "Time of Jacobs trouble". I believe Jacobs trouble to be the second half of the 70th week.

This scripture is something I would like commentary on because I have not seen or heard, not that anyone hasn't, I don't read much commentary, anyone using it in a resurrection sense. But it states, in its' prophetic language, a picture of the future departing to be with the Saviour.

Micah 7:8-10

Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me. I will bear the indignation of the LORD , because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his righteousness. Then she that is my enemy shall see it, and shame shall cover her which said to me, Where is the LORD thy God? mine eyes shall behold her: now shall she be trodden down as mire of the streets.

The statement "he will bring me forth" is the word yatsa, strong's #3318. Same word used for Rahab in Joshua 6:18.

There is typology such as ' if I shall fall, I will arise" resurrection, and others you can enjoy, but I'm interested more in what you all may think of this.

So I hope this post falls in the guidelines to disprove but the hitch is that I don't follow any of them. And by the way I don't know much about pre-wrath so that isn't where I'm coming from. As I have said this seems to me a simple thing. It's just how this event reads to me.

I put this scripture up to start with because it's different and fits with this because he speaks of darkness, not in a maybe sense but in the sense of when. The darkness we all experience at some point and the future prophetic time of darkness.

In Peace,Hey Carboy,

Thanks for your contribution. While this is an interesting thought, how does it address the OP? If I am missing your point, please clarify, OK? And please read my responses below to fully understand what I am asking, OK? Thanks...

I believe the first question is this:

Will there be one or more raptures? If multiple raptures, then we should have some fruitful discussion.

However, if there is one rapture (which I personally believe), then only one position can be correct, and the other two cannot be correct. So yes, belief in one means it is not possible for another one to be correct.

If I may ask, do you believe scripture shows us there is one or more than one "rapture"?

Be Blessed!Hi Obeytheword,

Your comments are very much on point. And I too anticipate a fruitful discussion. But I want to establish the meat of this thread. Please read next entry for a fuller explanation. Thanks!


Oh boy, here we go again..........:giveup:Hello Literalist-Luke,

I invite you to give up on giving up. There have been many an argument based on this view disproves that view. I want solid scriptural reasons for those positions. And that doesn't happen. It just seems to be assumed that it is a given. And if there are those that base their argument on the concept that there can only be one rapture, then I would like to know their reason for that too.

I really do not want this to be the typical, 'I'm right and you are wrong' rapture thread. I really want to know the reasons that people are so ADAMANT about something that is not that clearly spelled out in scripture. And I would like your to help in understanding.


1 Cor. 15:54 shows how many last trump times there can be.

one
one resurrection of the just
after that no believers will ever die again

death is swallowed up in victory

only wicked people will yet die

Just put Hebrews 9:28 and Rev. 19:1 together.
Jesus appears at the time of salvation.

The wicked city that did corrupt the earth is avenged.
Look at Rev. 19:2

It is impossible for there to be a pre-rib rapture.
The last martyr for Jesus will die before He returns.Peace to you vinsight4u8,

Thank you too, for your contribution. And I would like to use your posts as an example of what I am asking. You said, 1 Cor. 15:54 shows how many last trump times there can be.

Well this is true, but only so far as those that are 'dead in Christ' and we might also presume those that are 'alive in Christ' too. Why? Because Paul was addressing a very specific group of people. But neither Paul nor your quote addresses all that there are to be resurrected.

Clearly there were some righteous of all those that came before. And there will be some who will embrace His righteousness later. These are not discussed in your quote, so they are therefore unaccounted for in your explanation. See what I mean?

Thanks to all for your contributions. I hope this clarifies the reason for this thread. And I hope you will understand how it differs from other 'rapture' threads.

In His Love,
Phillip

carboy
Aug 4th 2008, 09:39 PM
Hi talmidim,

Yes it's ok.

After posting I realized it wasn't in line with the OP.

I'm not pre-post or mid, unless of course the resurrection does come in an order of multiples, which I have my doubts about, then I will be one of them. Most likely sometime during because that is how the Bible reads to me when I see scripture like the section I presented.

Also I apologize for not presenting an idea clearly. Maybe with more posts and prayer my thoughts will line more sensibly with the written word.

My beginning attempt was to disprove a label such as pre, mid or post with the use of a prophecy that speaks of a rapture. Paul did not give forth new revelation, but new revelation on things already written. The rapture is in the old. I believe we also will have more or new revelation on apocalyptic
scripture as that day gets closer, on things already written. Daniel was told "seal these things up until the time of the end".

Our understanding will increase.

I have shown this scripture to a few people with no response. So maybe it's just me and it's nothing. I do realize this is not the right thread to ask for input on something I've found. So it's cool and I'll stay tuned to the progression of the discussion.

In Peace

Brother Mark
Aug 4th 2008, 09:50 PM
As for more than one rapture, I would submit that more than one rapture has already occurred.

Enoch was raptured out.
Elijah was raptured out.
When Jesus rose again, the dead in Christ rose and were raptured out.

I think there will be more and I am certain I have overlooked a few.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 4th 2008, 09:56 PM
As for more than one rapture, I would submit that more than one rapture has already occurred.

Enoch was raptured out.
Elijah was raptured out.
When Jesus rose again, the dead in Christ rose and were raptured out.

I think there will be more and I am certain I have overlooked a few.

Yes there is more than one rapture...those listed and the 2 witnesses of Revelation are raptured.

Brother Mark
Aug 4th 2008, 09:57 PM
Yes there is more than one rapture...those listed and the 2 witnesses of Revelation are raptured.

Add to that when the church is raptured out...

I bet all in all we can come up with 7. Kahtar has posted on it somewhere. I think he's right about it too.

cwb
Aug 4th 2008, 10:01 PM
Greeting and Blessings in His Name,

It is my hope that we can discuss this important issue with an open heart and mind. Because I can't help but think that some of us are short changing ourselves.

I have never understood why, if someone has proof of a particular tribulation belief, does it automatically disprove another? So let's honestly dissect this issue. How does a mid-trib or post-trib or pre-trib belief disprove any of the other tribulation beliefs of this category? Please back up you position with appropriate scripture, in context. And remember, it doesn't matter if your belief is right. It only matters how your belief disproves another.

Because of the nature of this discussion, I will respectfully ask that those that do not believe in a rapture or a literal 7-year tribulation period, please refrain from posting, as those views are moot to the point of this discussion. Thanks you.


I can't find any scritpure that says there is one and only one rapture. However I see only one place where the rapture is specificall mentioned (I thess 4). What is your view? Do you believe there is a pre, mid and a post trib rapture?

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 4th 2008, 10:02 PM
Pre...Mid...Post...That is the question!

In my studies I have found evidence of Pre...
In my studies I have found evidence of Mid...
In my studies I have not found evidence of Post...

So to categorize myself it would be "anything but Post".

To your question...yes if one believes in Post then it would have to disprove Pre or Mid.

On the other hand one could believe in Pre or Mid with a belief of multiple raptures and that could include a Post.

talmidim
Aug 4th 2008, 11:29 PM
Hi talmidim,

Yes it's ok.

After posting I realized it wasn't in line with the OP.

I'm not pre-post or mid, unless of course the resurrection does come in an order of multiples, which I have my doubts about, then I will be one of them. Most likely sometime during because that is how the Bible reads to me when I see scripture like the section I presented.

Also I apologize for not presenting an idea clearly. Maybe with more posts and prayer my thoughts will line more sensibly with the written word.

My beginning attempt was to disprove a label such as pre, mid or post with the use of a prophecy that speaks of a rapture. Paul did not give forth new revelation, but new revelation on things already written. The rapture is in the old. I believe we also will have more or new revelation on apocalyptic
scripture as that day gets closer, on things already written. Daniel was told "seal these things up until the time of the end".

Our understanding will increase.

I have shown this scripture to a few people with no response. So maybe it's just me and it's nothing. I do realize this is not the right thread to ask for input on something I've found. So it's cool and I'll stay tuned to the progression of the discussion.

In PeaceNo apology necessary my friend. And don't me so quick to dismiss your contribution. I just want to discuss the 'proof' that people offer that one view disproves another first. Then we might be better prepared to discuss alternative views. Again, thank you for your input.

In His Love,
Phillip

talmidim
Aug 5th 2008, 12:21 AM
As for more than one rapture, I would submit that more than one rapture has already occurred.

Enoch was raptured out.
Elijah was raptured out.
When Jesus rose again, the dead in Christ rose and were raptured out.

I think there will be more and I am certain I have overlooked a few.

Add to that when the church is raptured out...

I bet all in all we can come up with 7. Kahtar has posted on it somewhere. I think he's right about it too.Hey Brother Mark!

Always a pleasure. So forgive me if I disagree. Your argument about Enoch and Elijah has merit, though some might characterize them as foreshadowings of the promise of 1 Thes. The others you describe would more accurately characterized as the firstfruit of a resurrection, not a 'rapture', per se. Because I am pretty sure you don't have any scriptural accounts of living Judeans ascending at that time. I would have remembered. Nor can they be characterized as 'dead in Christ' for we do not know to what Covenant they belonged (though the Mosaic seems likely, that too could be debated).

I am sure your contribution will push forward the discussion, but I wanted to clarify the context of these observations first. Feel free to disagree. I certainly haven't memorized all of scripture and I always learn something in my exchanges with you.

Yes there is more than one rapture...those listed and the 2 witnesses of Revelation are raptured.Hi 2 Peter 2:20, and welcome aboard. I was wondering if you think that the Two Witnesses also constitute a resurrection as opposed to a 'rapture' too? I think we have to be careful how we categorize these events because there seems to be an important difference that I want to discuss later.


I can't find any scritpure that says there is one and only one rapture. However I see only one place where the rapture is specificall mentioned (I thess 4). What is your view? Do you believe there is a pre, mid and a post trib rapture?Hi cwb,

I agree that I cannot scripture that pins our understanding to the concept of one and only one rapture. And it should be noted again that I view raptures and resurrections with certain distinction. Please read on for my views on multiple raptures as opposed to multiple resurrections.

Pre...Mid...Post...That is the question!

In my studies I have found evidence of Pre...
In my studies I have found evidence of Mid...
In my studies I have not found evidence of Post...

So to categorize myself it would be "anything but Post".

To your question...yes if one believes in Post then it would have to disprove Pre or Mid.

On the other hand one could believe in Pre or Mid with a belief of multiple raptures and that could include a Post.Hi again 2P2,

You have a more open view of things than most and that sets you apart. But you still seem to be ready to eliminate a view without testing the question offered in the OP.

I saved this post for last for what I consider, a good reason. I have investigated this possibility of multiple raptures and resurrections. And lately my understanding of the matter has changed somewhat. So later on, I would like to discuss the possibilities and circumstances that might better explain these concepts. But not right now.

I still haven't seen any of the reasons why so many people ADAMANTLY insist that one view disproves another. vinsight4u8 has been the only person so far, willing to post scripture in favor of their view and subject it to scrutiny. It is one thing to profess a 'proof' to which everyone seems to agree. It is quite another to stop taking it for granted and honestly dissect it in the full view of others.

I would like to understand this loyal adherence to this belief. Does one view of the rapture actually disprove the others? The reason that this is important to me is simple. It is foundational to most rapture theories.

In His Love,
Phillip

obeytheword
Aug 5th 2008, 12:26 AM
As for more than one rapture, I would submit that more than one rapture has already occurred.

Enoch was raptured out.
Elijah was raptured out.
When Jesus rose again, the dead in Christ rose and were raptured out.

I think there will be more and I am certain I have overlooked a few.

I was under the impression we were discussing "THE" rapture(s) at the end of the age - not rapture like events that had happened already.

I am not sure I see the relevance of those to the "end of the age" "catching up".

Would it be helpful for us to list out the verses in question, and then discuss them one at a time, rather than piecemeal it? Focusing not on ones like Elijah or Enoch - but rather on one(s) to come?

Or just throw one at a time out there maybe, and discuss one fully before going to the next? Any chance we could be that diciplined? :lol:

Be Blessed!

Kahtar
Aug 5th 2008, 12:42 AM
I assume the distiction between 'rapture' and 'resurrection' would be the former is a 'live' raising, as opposed to the dead coming out of the graves. Would that be correct, Tal?

talmidim
Aug 5th 2008, 12:53 AM
I was under the impression we were discussing "THE" rapture(s) at the end of the age - not rapture like events that had happened already.

I am not sure I see the relevance of those to the "end of the age" "catching up".

Would it be helpful for us to list out the verses in question, and then discuss them one at a time, rather than piecemeal it? Focusing not on ones like Elijah or Enoch - but rather on one(s) to come?

Or just throw one at a time out there maybe, and discuss one fully before going to the next? Any chance we could be that diciplined? :lol:

Be Blessed!Thank you for your blessings and your insights, obeytheword. :DI too would like to see a disciplined discussion, though not so tightly throttled as to be stifling.

You offered that we might list scriptures and discuss them individually. What do you think are the scriptures that support the 'one view disproves another' position? And can you offer the context in which each position applies them? I tend to think that the individuals are going to have to be brave enough to put their own interpretations to the test. And so we are back to the OP.;)

The OP is a standing invitation to those that insist that one rapture view automatically disproves another. I personally cannot find any scriptural support for that view, but I have read the claim being made repeatedly in many different threads, hence the invitation. :) Inquiring minds want to know...

Be blessed,
Phillip

talmidim
Aug 5th 2008, 12:57 AM
I assume the distiction between 'rapture' and 'resurrection' would be the former is a 'live' raising, as opposed to the dead coming out of the graves. Would that be correct, Tal?Right you are, my friend. And I bet you know why I make that distinction too. ;) But in truth, I was saving that little tidbit for later.

So do you know of anyone that might want to explain why they think that, say...
...mid-trib disproves the pre-trib position? 'Cause it's been slim pickin's herebouts, partner. :cool:

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 5th 2008, 01:52 AM
Hi 2 Peter 2:20, and welcome aboard. I was wondering if you think that the Two Witnesses also constitute a resurrection as opposed to a 'rapture' too? I think we have to be careful how we categorize these events because there seems to be an important difference that I want to discuss later.

Yes, a resurrection since they are killed and brought back to life and a rapture or ascension as per scripture.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.




Hi again 2P2,
You have a more open view of things than most and that sets you apart. But you still seem to be ready to eliminate a view without testing the question offered in the OP.

I still haven't seen any of the reasons why so many people ADAMANTLY insist that one view disproves another. vinsight4u8 has been the only person so far, willing to post scripture in favor of their view and subject it to scrutiny. It is one thing to profess a 'proof' to which everyone seems to agree. It is quite another to stop taking it for granted and honestly dissect it in the full view of others.

I would like to understand this loyal adherence to this belief. Does one view of the rapture actually disprove the others? The reason that this is important to me is simple. It is foundational to most rapture theories.

In His Love,
Phillip


Proof for Pre...
1 Thessalonians 5:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 2:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=2&verse=5&version=9&context=verse)
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Revelation 6:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=6&verse=16&version=9&context=verse)
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=6&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

All of these are the same Greek word for "wrath". The first shows that we will not suffer wrath...What wrath?? I believe Paul tells us in Romans and John tells us in Revelation what that wrath is. Combine this with the sealing of the 144,000 from the TRIBES OF ISRAEL. They are the only ones protected during this time.

Proof for Mid...
Same as above and when combined with Daniel 9 and 2 Thess. 2

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

If the man of sin is revealed in the middle of the week or 3.5 years into the tribulation then that would be when the Mid would happen.

Basically it is the same. If the man of sin is revealed at the beginning of the tribulation then it is Pre...If he is revealed in the middle of the week then it is Mid.

Proof against Post...
Revelation 9:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=9&verse=20&version=31&context=verse)
The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.

This is before the 7th trumpet...normal post tribulation rapture timeline. It says the rest of mankind that were not killed still didn't repent. That tells me that none of mankind was "saved" hence the need to repent.



This is a deep subject and is just a short condensed version...

talmidim
Aug 5th 2008, 03:36 AM
Yes, a resurrection since they are killed and brought back to life and a rapture or ascension as per scripture.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


Proof for Pre...
1 Thessalonians 5:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 2:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=2&verse=5&version=9&context=verse)
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Revelation 6:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=6&verse=16&version=9&context=verse)
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=6&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

All of these are the same Greek word for "wrath". The first shows that we will not suffer wrath...What wrath?? I believe Paul tells us in Romans and John tells us in Revelation what that wrath is. Combine this with the sealing of the 144,000 from the TRIBES OF ISRAEL. They are the only ones protected during this time.

Proof for Mid...
Same as above and when combined with Daniel 9 and 2 Thess. 2

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

If the man of sin is revealed in the middle of the week or 3.5 years into the tribulation then that would be when the Mid would happen.

Basically it is the same. If the man of sin is revealed at the beginning of the tribulation then it is Pre...If he is revealed in the middle of the week then it is Mid.

Proof against Post...
Revelation 9:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=9&verse=20&version=31&context=verse)
The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.

This is before the 7th trumpet...normal post tribulation rapture timeline. It says the rest of mankind that were not killed still didn't repent. That tells me that none of mankind was "saved" hence the need to repent.

This is a deep subject and is just a short condensed version...Hello again my friend,

Thanks for the 'Reader's Digest' version. ;) My hat is off, as it is fairly well done in my estimation. And even though I really don't wish to favor one view over another, your explanation brings certain contextual issues to the fore.

For instance, the 'day' you speak of is not a day in the sense of a calendar day. We know this from the Revelation for those that do not wish to examine all the OT verses that support this fact. His wrath, anger, indignation, etc., lasts for many days. His wrath is spoken of in many verses in both OT and NT. But in the Revelation, it is only poured out in the Cups, even though it is referenced in the 6th Seal.

And there is also the perennial disputes over who are partakers of which Covenant, what is the identity of the Church, etc. These issues define the way individuals perceive the verses you offer here. But none that I have read and none of the arguments offered pro or con, actually nail down the argument that one view precludes another from being true.

This is the purpose of this thread. And I am disappointed that those who are normally so adamant about their view in other threads, will not explain their preconceived notion in this thread. So thanks for your contributions. Perhaps we should go into other threads an off invitations. Then we might get some insight into why they insist that their view is the only view.

In His Love,
Phillip

Literalist-Luke
Aug 5th 2008, 06:23 AM
There have been many an argument based on this view disproves that view. I want solid scriptural reasons for those positions. And that doesn't happen. It just seems to be assumed that it is a given. And if there are those that base their argument on the concept that there can only be one rapture, then I would like to know their reason for that too.

I really do not want this to be the typical, 'I'm right and you are wrong' rapture thread. I really want to know the reasons that people are so ADAMANT about something that is not that clearly spelled out in scripture. And I would like your to help in understanding.I'm just going to sort of ramble here and hopefully it will wind up making some sense: Contrary to what many people would say (including you, apparently), the Bible is not unclear about the Rapture at all. It seems to me to be as clear as brand new glass. And the position I hold is not one that I like either. I was strongly opposed to it for a number of years. The only reason I have to admit today that it is the correct one, much to my chagrin, is because I cannot deny the Scriptures.

The problem is that modern eschatologists have surrounded the otherwise simple, clear teaching of the Rapture with so much garbage and preconception that it's almost impossible to sort through it all and to whittle the whole thing down to the barebones Biblical truth. By the time you hack through the jungle that surrounds the treasure, you can't find the treasure for digging through the jungle!

As for "solid Scriptural reasons" regarding my position, I've been offering the same for a number of weeks now (at least the short version, anyway) and have never seen anybody attempt to actually refute my argument, but rather just offering other arguments that ignore mine. If you're really interested in it, let me know and I'll post it here. (Let me know if you want the short version or the long version - the long version is really long. I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't take five or six separate posts here to get it all in.)

talmidim
Aug 5th 2008, 07:28 AM
Hello Literalist-Luke,

And thanks for answering. I don't want for you to get the wrong idea. I am not so much looking for what you believe is the correct scriptural view concerning the rapture. I just want to know what scriptures and reasoning is applied to the presumption that one view disproves another. Because I have heard that statement from all camps without much verification other than it is what everyone believes.

I am in no way questioning your scholarship. What I do wish to examine is why you think that there is only one correct interpretation. So if we can, please limit your response to the OP. A brief statement of your view is OK if you need to preface your remarks in that fashion. Use what material you need to make your case. But I want to know how one way precludes any other way, more than which way you believe is correct, OK?

If our exchange of ideas requires that we go into more detail, then feel free to pull out the big guns. But I really want to restrict our exchange to foundational material, especially in the beginning. I know that this may not be as easy as I make it sound. But I appreciate whatever you can do to help me from this turning into a pre-mid-post debate. Thanks.

In His Love,
Phillip

vinsight4u8
Aug 5th 2008, 12:16 PM
Hi talmidim,

I'm not sure just what you saying as to 1 Cor. 15:51-54 doesn't fit (my words) as to including everyone.

1 Cor. 15:51
"...We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed...at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound..."

the dead shall be raised incorruptible
shall have put on incorruption
/
so it is the time of the resurrection of all of the just to get incorruption - bodies that can't die

then death will be swallowed up
/
but only as to the kind that ends with a resurrection to victory
/as in there will be no more eternal life grave people

victory through our Lord Jesus Christ for the dead is over
1 Cor. 15:23
"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

vinsight4u8
Aug 5th 2008, 12:35 PM
1 Cor. 15:54 shows how many last trump times there can be.

one
one resurrection of the just
after that no believers will ever die again

death is swallowed up in victory

only wicked people will yet die

1 Cor. 15:52
"...the dead shall be raised incorruptible..."

verse 42
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:"
&
Acts 24:15
"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."
Paul didn't say- there shall be a resurrection of all dead. He wants us to know there will be a just resurrection and another time will come an unjust resurrection.

Paul showed the church that at the the last trump is when the time for those of incorruption comes.

vinsight4u8
Aug 5th 2008, 12:55 PM
As for more than one rapture, I would submit that more than one rapture has already occurred.

Enoch was raptured out.
Elijah was raptured out.
When Jesus rose again, the dead in Christ rose and were raptured out.

I think there will be more and I am certain I have overlooked a few.

The rapture the church looks for can only follow the resurrection of all of the just. Paul told us that we shall not all sleep and he also told us that Jesus will bring the sleeping with Him at His coming.

1 Cor. 15:51-54
1 Thes.4:15-16,14
"...shall not prevent them which are asleep."
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven...and the dead in Christ shall rise first..."
"...even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

>so Enoch and Elijah must get into the group of sleeping saints that Jesus brings back at the last trump. They are the two witnesses that will be slain during the 6th trumpet and rise during the earthquake hour of the 7th trumpet.

Daniel 12:13
"...for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."
/
So Daniel will rise after the 1290 days time.
/at the end of the great tribulation

but there will be others that can still be blessed if they have not gone to the grave after Daniel was raised
>
v12
"Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."
/
they survive the time of the seven vials of God's wrath to get blessed to live on into the millenium
They must wait - but Daniel was told to go and rest.

/
Those at the 1335th day point are not allowed to be among those resting, as only the living can still get blessed - not eternal life yet - but will be allowed to live on while Christ reigns on the earth.

vinsight4u8
Aug 5th 2008, 01:13 PM
I can't find any scritpure that says there is one and only one rapture. However I see only one place where the rapture is specificall mentioned (I thess 4). What is your view? Do you believe there is a pre, mid and a post trib rapture?

If you see Enoch and Elijah as gone to heaven without dying, then woudn't they have to come back and die? Paul wrote as to we shall all be changed - the dead - incorruptible - and those which are alive. How would Enoch and Elijah ever get changed if they don't die? I believe they have to be the two witnesses, they will get slain by the beast, then return with Jesus when He brings the sleeping at His time of descending.

Take that time of He will descend, put with it>

That He remains in heaven till it is time to make His enemies His footstool.

Hebrews 10:12-13
"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;"
"From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool."
expecting -waiting

How could He make His enemies His footstool before the 7th trumpet, for then is when the 24 seated elders will
stop being seated at the throne area, fall down before God and soon tell Him that He should destroy?

Rev. 11:15-18

vinsight4u8
Aug 5th 2008, 01:45 PM
Hi 2 Peter 2:20}

Take the verse you gave as to salvation (1 Thes. 5:9) - as in the church gets salvation and not appointed to wrath.
<
Okay, now when does she get salvation?
Let Hebrews 9:28 tell us.

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Rev. 19:1
"And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation..."
v7
"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come..."

So salvation time when Jesus appears happens and then comes down the road - the marriage.
But what happens first in those other pre-marriage verses?

verse 2
"For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth..."
/
The city of mystery, Babylon has fallen.
She is done corrupting the earth.
= the trib time is over

verse 2 continues>
"....which did corrupt the earth...and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."
/
God has paid her back for the shed blood of the trib martyrs.

<
So we must be around the time of the 7th trumpet has started -for only then does the Lord get the message that He should destroy.
The city was done corrupting the earth at the 7th trumpet - and God took her down - let the ten horns burn her up.

Rev. 7 gives us another view as to the time of salvation for the church.

Rev. 7:9
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitiude...palms in their hands.'
v 10
"And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation..."
v14
"...These are those which came out of great tribulation..."

obeytheword
Aug 5th 2008, 01:57 PM
So - should we believe there are multiple raptures....?



13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that [B]we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

This indicates that the resurrection of the dead will precede the rapture rather strongly. And see that part about the trumpet?



51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
I believe this is significant - AT the last trumpet - which occurs when? Certainly not prior to the tribulation...

If these are speaking of the same event - which I believe to be rather clear, then they speak of one rapture that cannot happen prior to the trib


Long one here, but need to read it all together to understand the point.


3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=50&context=chapter#fen-NKJV-23958a)]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
[B]9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=50&context=chapter#fen-NKJV-23967c)] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This indicates again that the rapture cannot happen prior to the tribulation. It has throughout the passage a very consistent flow of time and does not jump around at all. And see again the trumpet mentioned?

Then you have the ordering of Revelation which is actually a little bit complicated.

IF the order of the judgements (seals, trumpets, bowls) are chronological in order - (seals - then trumpets - then bowls)

And you understand that it is at the last trumpet that the rapture occurs which is rather clearly shown above

And also add in what Zech 14 says - mainly verses 1 through 9 - It indicates that the passage is the day of the Lord, and talks about him coming with his saints to take Jerusalem back. (as an aside, Jude 14 is also interesting in that it goes along with this rather nicely as well) Now if the saints are not raptured PRIOR to the trib - and they will come WITH the Lord to consumate his re-taking of Jerusalem and establishing of his rule, then the rapture does not seem to be able to be AFTER the tribulation...


I suppose I am digressing a little from the OP - but the point is, WHY would someone assume there would be more than one rapture? I honestly do not see any indication of it in scripture at all. I would think that the burden of showing of more than one would rest on the person who believes it is so.

I believe it is difficult to divorce the understand of whether it is one or more raptures from the interpretation of exactly what occurs during the end times.

Yes - the Lord tends to shroud things in poetic language and he speaks in parables to cloud the minds of the wise, etc - but in our current society, we take a FAR too scholarly approach to understanding the scriptures. The pharisees did the same in the time of Jesus. They had all kinds of nice little debates, making things way way more complicated that they needed to be. I believe it is clearly shown in scripture that there is only one catching up.

Are there more scriptures about the rapture that someone would be so glad to post that indicate it is possible for there to be MORE than one, or about one that occurs at a different time than I have indicated?

Be Blessed!

vinsight4u8
Aug 5th 2008, 02:41 PM
What the readers of Revelation need to realize is that in ch 11 - an angel was speaking to John. John did not see the two witnesses rise from the dead, nor get slain. The angel had John measure for a future temple in Jerusalem, then began to speak of two witnesses (that finish their testimony). The angel gave a brief outline to the life of these two prophets and divided what happens to them into the time of two woes.

}the last two woes, being the 6th and 7th trumpet times
The two get slain during the second woe and rise at the third =7th trumpet woe earthquake hour.
They are rising because all martyrs must sleep till all come in that are to be slain - and it is the time of the resurrection of the just.
time to reward His servants

time to judge the dead
see Rev. 11:18

Take that part - "time to judge the dead"
Let's see what 2 Timothy 4:1 says...

"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge...the dead at his appearing..."

vinsight4u8
Aug 5th 2008, 03:03 PM
Hi obeytheword{

I read your post. You are right there is only one time of catching up the saints, and it is at the 7th trumpet.
I wonder though if you would be willing to look at how that trumpet will sound in the 6th seal (showing a post-trib rapture).

The book of Revelation is not in chronological order as to all of the seals get opened, then the trumpets sound, then the bowls get poured out on the wicked.
<
So Rev. places the resurrection of the just as will come during the 7th trumpet. Okay, did John see that resurrection event, did he see the rapture? Not really, for here (ch 11) he is only told about what is to happen. The 7th trumpet then begins to sound, events start to unfold, but no resurrection happened.

obeytheword
Aug 5th 2008, 03:39 PM
Hi obeytheword{

I read your post. You are right there is only one time of catching up the saints, and it is at the 7th trumpet.
I wonder though if you would be willing to look at how that trumpet will sound in the 6th seal (showing a post-trib rapture).

The book of Revelation is not in chronological order as to all of the seals get opened, then the trumpets sound, then the bowls get poured out on the wicked.
<
So Rev. places the resurrection of the just as will come during the 7th trumpet. Okay, did John see that resurrection event, did he see the rapture? Not really, for here (ch 11) he is only told about what is to happen. The 7th trumpet then begins to sound, events start to unfold, but no resurrection happened.

Very true. I have honestly not determined the exact ordering of the bowls in relation to the trumpets. Most I have heard from believe they are at least somewhat chronological - but I am not certain. The book at large is certainly not chronological overall.

There are some very good indications that the 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl are happening concurrently.



17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. 19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. 20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.




15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&version=50#fen-NKJV-30882f)] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:


“ We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&version=50#fen-NKJV-30884g)]
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=11&version=50#fen-NKJV-30886h)] was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

In both portions you have thundering, lightning, earthquake and hail - so they seem to very possibly be talking about the same thing - or at least 2 things at the same time.

However, the bowl indicates that the judgement is done - and the Trumpet can be interpreted EITHER that judgement is done, or getting ready to happen...?? Not sure about that part honestly, and it is part of why I am not 100% sure of the exact ordering of things.

To me the Zech 14 passage is very interesting when mixed in however. I think to a certain degree it depends on exactly how you define the end of the tribulation. The Lord comes with his saints in Zech 14 and (Jude 14) - and at that time the wicked are still around.

If the saints are with him (having already been resurrected / raptured) but the evildooers are still there for judgement - do you say at that time the tribulation is completed and it is judgement time, or that the judgement is the last portion of the tribulation?

Regardless - I personally believe that point becomes one of semantics - because however you define the specific words - it is the ordering and understanding of events - AND the why behind them to be honest - that is important in the whole thing in my opinion!

Be Blessed!

vinsight4u8
Aug 5th 2008, 03:59 PM
Very true. I have honestly not determined the exact ordering of the bowls in relation to the trumpets. Most I have heard from believe they are at least somewhat chronological - but I am not certain. The book at large is certainly not chronological overall.

There are some very good indications that the 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl are happening concurrently.

In both portions you have thundering, lightnings, earthquake and hail - so they seem to very possibly be talking about the same thing - or at least 2 things at the same time.
...
Be Blessed!

I have removed some of what you wrote so we can dwell on it a little bit and then go further.
Take what you put as to lightnings thundering and such.
{
If we study that part closely, what do we see? Rev. 8:5 and Rev. 11:19 are similar but they are also very different.

Rev. 8:5 - the great hail part is missing.
then the trumpets are allowed to start

Rev. 11:19
the trumpets have just ended
so what should happen next?


Rev. 8:5
"And the angel took the censer filled it with fire of the altar...and there were voices, and thunderings...and an earthquake."
Next verse up!
"And the seven angels
which had the seven trumpets
prepared themselves to sound


Rev. 11:19b
"...and there were lightnings, and voices...and an earthquake, and great hail."
Next verse up?
Rev. 12:1
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman..."
What?
Where are the seven angels that start now to do something?

Here is another example:

Rev. 4:5
"And out of the throne proceded lightnings and thunderings and voices..."
/no plagues added this time
Next part of the verse has?
"...seven lamps of fire burning before the throne..."

God's Rev. pattern is to follow the voices and thunderings and such part with seven are before Him.

See why Rev. 11:9 won't connect to Rev. 12:1 and keep the smooth flow to Revelation?

vinsight4u8
Aug 5th 2008, 04:10 PM
So before the trumpets begin - we need the lightnings and thunderings type of message & we can't begin Rev. 16 without John getting a lightnings and thunderings type of message too.

And I heard a great voice out of the temple, saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of God's wrath..."

They can't go - till the lightnings and thunderings signal type of message goes out ahead of them pouring.

It may seem odd at the moment, but the end of Rev. 11 is our path back to Rev. 16:1.

obeytheword
Aug 5th 2008, 04:28 PM
I have removed some of what you wrote so we can dwell on it a little bit and then go further.
Take what you put as to lightnings thundering and such.
{
If we study that part closely, what do we see? Rev. 8:5 and Rev. 11:19 are similar but they are also very different.

Rev. 8:5 - the great hail part is missing.
then the trumpets are allowed to start

Rev. 11:19
the trumpets have just ended
so what should happen next?


Rev. 8:5
"And the angel took the censer filled it with fire of the altar...and there were voices, and thunderings...and an earthquake."
Next verse up!
"And the seven angels
which had the seven trumpets
prepared themselves to sound


Rev. 11:19b
"...and there were lightnings, and voices...and an earthquake, and great hail."
Next verse up?
Rev. 12:1
"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman..."
What?
Where are the seven angels that start now to do something?

Here is another example:

Rev. 4:5
"And out of the throne proceded lightnings and thunderings and voices..."
/no plagues added this time
Next part of the verse has?
"...seven lamps of fire burning before the throne..."

God's Rev. pattern is to follow the voices and thunderings and such part with seven are before Him.

See why Rev. 11:9 won't connect to Rev. 12:1 and keep the smooth flow to Revelation?

Yes - I tend to agree - I had not dwelled on that specific point to be honest.

Though again, I am not 100% certain of the exact ordering of all the events. I will also have to admit I am not totally concerned because I know the absolute one thing that we are to do is "watch therefore". We are to go deep into God and be in prayer and connected with the spirit.

We will have revealed to us as we need to know exactly how things will come down. I can understand the vast majority of things based on examination of the Word - but I believe that trying to get that last 5% of understanding by straining to wring it out of the word is counter-productive. It is what the western church has done for some time now. We will post all kinds of convoluted cut and paste arguments where we grab 2 scriptures from here, 3 from there, and one from another place to wrap a theology around. (not meaning you friend, but the church at large does this often)

Although a rather literal person, I take a slightly different approach. I do not strain with the word to wring out what I need, but strain in prayer / fasting as well as being in the word to have the heart of God revealed to me :)

Regardless - back to the OP.

Yes - I believe scripture shows clearly that there is one "rapture" and that it happens at mid/end of tribulation - just depending on exactly how you define the exact order of events in the judgements, and how you define what constitutes the "end" of the tribulation - in regards to the judgement. I personally believe it happens prior to the bowls - and the bowls are happening as Zech 14 progresses. Pinning things down past that point is beyond the mandate of the original post I believe:o


Be Blessed!

Literalist-Luke
Aug 5th 2008, 04:28 PM
I just want to know what scriptures and reasoning is applied to the presumption that one view disproves another. What I do wish to examine is why you think that there is only one correct interpretation. I want to know how one way precludes any other way, more than which way you believe is correct, OK?Oh, so you're wondering why there can't be multiple stages to the Rapture? That maybe, for instance, Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, and Post-Trib might actually all be correct?

For one thing, Paul says in I Corinthians 15:51-52 that "we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye." If we're all going to be changed "in a flash", then how could there be multiple stages? Sounds to me like it all happens at once.

And that's not even going into a discussion about what would be the point of multiple Raptures. We're all equally forgiven and therefore equally "washed as white as snow" before the Lord, so why would one person merit a different Rapture time than another?

obeytheword
Aug 5th 2008, 04:33 PM
So before the trumpets begin - we need the lightnings and thunderings type of message & we can't begin Rev. 16 without John getting a lightnings and thunderings type of message too.

And I heard a great voice out of the temple, saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of God's wrath..."

They can't go - till the lightnings and thunderings signal type of message goes out ahead of them pouring.

It may seem odd at the moment, but the end of Rev. 11 is our path back to Rev. 16:1.

That is my personal interpretation. The 7th trumpet sounds - Jesus comes, the resurrection happens, the rapture happens - we meet him in the air, then he returns to the earth with all the saints to execute judgement on those left on the earth. The bowls are happening as this occurs.

Again - I believe this is what it teaches, but I will not draw a line in the sand and say anyone who disagrees is hopelessly wrong or anything of that sort. I just have not heard any convincing interpretation that differs significantly AND is in line with what is very clear in scripture.

Be Blessed!

vinsight4u8
Aug 5th 2008, 04:39 PM
What the church needs to do is let John start her reading where he started seeing.

Rev. 12:1
"And there appeared a great wonder..."

a - as in the first time John spies something as to the endtimes

He was not in chapter 7 or 8, 9 or even 11. John was beginning to see things right there - 12:1.

Then what happened?

12:3
"And there appeared another wonder in heaven..."

/
John continues this flow of seeing things and hearing things till we get to Rev. 15:1.

"And I saw another sign in heaven..."
Again - he is still letting wonders flow - appear to him since chapter 12.
Chapter 12 - began the wonders appearing - and ch 15 will end them.

so - we know that chs 12-15 are in order

Then we come to 15:5 and find this>

"And after that I looked..."
/
as in after the time of signs- John now starts a new section
He will be given more information to help him understand the signs section.

vinsight4u8
Aug 5th 2008, 05:23 PM
So we have the signs section = chs 12-15:4.
Then what?
Well, ask yourself why did John seem to understand what happens when plagues get fulfilled, yet the vials of ch 16 had yet to start?

Rev. 15:8
"...till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."

Rev. 16:1 can't start till we get that last part of Rev. 11:19 as to lightnings and such type of stuff.

What happened?
John saw the trumpet plagues time at the end of chapter 15. That is what caused him to learn that men will be allowed to enter the temple in heaven once this set of plagues by the seven angels ends.

But then how do we bring Rev. 11:19 to slide over to just before chapter 16?
It isn't hard really - for at the end of the trumpet plague events is when John saw the sealed book.

Rev. 15 - 16
splits apart and lets John watch the seals be opened

talmidim
Aug 5th 2008, 07:03 PM
vinsight4u8,

What you have done is reprehensible. You have chosen to ignore the OP and hijack this thread. You have chosen to ignore my comments to you about the scripture you posted and turn this thread into your own person soapbox on WHAT YOU BELIEVE is the chronology of the Revelation. There are many threads on that topic. This is not one of them.

Please go back and read the OP. If you cannot control your impulse to hijack the discussion then please refrain from posting. Thank you.

IMINXTC
Aug 5th 2008, 08:01 PM
I, in my haste, have often failed to identify "Jacob's hour of trouble," as the second three and one half year period of Daniel's 'week' as correctly stated in this thread. My point being that the first half of this period is essential to my understanding of 2Thess.2:3, "except there come a falling away first."

The "covenant" of Daniel 9:27 refers the covenant of Moses, and the sacrificial system being given free reign in Jeruselum at the temple, as in previous times. Trouble begins at mid-point (Abomination of Desolations).
(2Thess2:4: Mt:24:15)

2Thess2:6-9 tells me that this will not happen until "he who now letteth" be taken out of the way. Can the church and Antichrist coexist on earth during the same period? And would that not become a clear sign to all that Christ is coming in a very predictable number of years, rather than as a thief in the night?

I have always been open to the idea of multiple raptures, but have never been satisfied that the scripture teaches it.

Revelation 12:7-17 speaks of the future event wherein the Devil is cast down to the earth... by almost all accounts referring to the trib era.

Scriptual proof? I refuse to pidgeon-hole people on these issues.l

talmidim
Aug 5th 2008, 08:28 PM
Hello obeytheword,

Thanks for your detailed response. I disagree that you has strayed from the OP though. You seemed to embrace it rather well.

So - should we believe there are multiple raptures....?I am not advocating one way or another. Just exploring the OP.

This indicates that the resurrection of the dead will precede the rapture rather strongly. And see that part about the trumpet?Your quote of 1 Thes 4 is misleading unless you acknowledge that Paul is speaking of the 'dead in Christ'. There is another Covenant to consider in which some have been found righteous in His sight. And there have been those that have, in ignorance, followed that Covenant. And there are the innocent to consider, and those that are not of the age of consent.

I am just raising other possibilities here...

I believe this is significant - AT the last trumpet - which occurs when? Certainly not prior to the tribulation...

If these are speaking of the same event - which I believe to be rather clear, then they speak of one rapture that cannot happen prior to the tribI can see how non-Hebrew speakers would read that interpretation into those passages. But certainly you are aware the Hebrew people and more specifically the Levitical Priesthood, had names for every trumpet and shofar blast in every service, for every day and every Feast. And there is more than ample evidence that John has used Hebraic idioms and figures of speech in his writings. And it isn't unthinkable that the symbology of the Temple service would be used to explain what appears to be a service in the Temple in heaven. So to say that the 'last Trump' in 1 Thes is the same as the 7th Trumpet in the Revelation isn't exactly a slam dunk.

There room for other interpretations. So to establish such an important decision upon an unsettled point, to me seems premature.

Long one here, but need to read it all together to understand the point.

(quote from Matt 24)

This indicates again that the rapture cannot happen prior to the tribulation. It has throughout the passage a very consistent flow of time and does not jump around at all. And see again the trumpet mentioned?To say that this passage of scripture is open to interpretation is an understatement. Let me show you what I mean.

There are those that say that Matthew is specifically written to the Jewish people. And as such, is couched in terms both linguistically and culturally Hebraic. There are many that claim it was the only Gospel written in Hebrew and translated into Greek (a claim much debated). My point is that we may not completely take it's inherent 'Jewishness' into account when reading it.

Also, the Master was answering three questions that had been put to Him by His disciples early in this chapter. Questions formulated based on their understanding of prophecy and what Messiah had just told them about the destruction of the Temple (and therefore Jerusalem). And what individual remarks by the Master, covered which questions, is another unsettled debate. In other words, it is not quite as clear to some people as it seems to be to you.

Then you have the ordering of Revelation which is actually a little bit complicated.

IF the order of the judgements (seals, trumpets, bowls) are chronological in order - (seals - then trumpets - then bowls)

And you understand that it is at the last trumpet that the rapture occurs which is rather clearly shown above

And also add in what Zech 14 says - mainly verses 1 through 9 - It indicates that the passage is the day of the Lord, and talks about him coming with his saints to take Jerusalem back. (as an aside, Jude 14 is also interesting in that it goes along with this rather nicely as well) Now if the saints are not raptured PRIOR to the trib - and they will come WITH the Lord to consumate his re-taking of Jerusalem and establishing of his rule, then the rapture does not seem to be able to be AFTER the tribulation...


I suppose I am digressing a little from the OP - but the point is, WHY would someone assume there would be more than one rapture? I honestly do not see any indication of it in scripture at all. I would think that the burden of showing of more than one would rest on the person who believes it is so.

I believe it is difficult to divorce the understand of whether it is one or more raptures from the interpretation of exactly what occurs during the end times.

Yes - the Lord tends to shroud things in poetic language and he speaks in parables to cloud the minds of the wise, etc - but in our current society, we take a FAR too scholarly approach to understanding the scriptures. The pharisees did the same in the time of Jesus. They had all kinds of nice little debates, making things way way more complicated that they needed to be. I believe it is clearly shown in scripture that there is only one catching up.

Are there more scriptures about the rapture that someone would be so glad to post that indicate it is possible for there to be MORE than one, or about one that occurs at a different time than I have indicated?

Be Blessed!About the 'day' of the Lord in Zechariah, haven't we already established that 'the day' is more than just one day? It is an event that spans a great deal of time, not just one day when He returns. So care must be exercised that too much is not read into it. I can tell you that many historical writings of the Hebrew people indicate that they understood it to be a series of events that culminated with the coming of the Messiah and His conquering the enemies of Israel. The Day isn't just one day.

Your remarks about the 'scholarly' impress me. They may be well deserved. And I, to a point, agree. But context is invaluable. Especially considering that our Messiah spoke in the terms with which His audience would identify. To fishermen He spoke in terms of fishing, farmers of farming, etc. And you may well ask at this point where am I going with this...

Do you remember where John was allowed into the High Priests house while Peter waited in the courtyard, later to deny Him thrice? Well the only people allowed in were kinsman. And John was of the priestly family of the High Priest, schooled in the mysteries of the Tabernacle since birth. So doesn't it make sense that the Revelation would be couched in the terms of the priesthood and the Temple service?

So how many on this site do you think evaluate the Revelation based on the scriptures, symbols, teachings and practices of the Aaronic priesthood? How much time do you spend in Leviticus when reading Revelation?

In terms of the OP, I still do not find compelling evidence that one view of the rapture timing precludes another. And while it is true that I have my own opinion. It is just that - an opinion.

The 'dead in Christ' does not cover all that are to be resurrected mentioned in 1 Thes. The 'last trump' is far from definitive outside of context. The 144,000, the two witnesses, the innocent, the underage, the countless number with the Lord at His return, none are not completely understood. And yet there are some who would attempt to steamroll any attempt at discussion with their immutable view.

What I do find interesting is that there are different judgments for different groups of people clearly spelled out in scripture. But that is largely ignored by our most prolific prognosticators and Revelation 'scholars'. Just as the scriptures about the priesthood and its practices are. And we are given an incomplete and skewed view of these events, just as the Pharisees did with their charges in their day.

Thank you for your contribution. Your honest approach is welcome. And your courteousness is much appreciated. I hope we can continue in this discussion. If there are problems that you see with my understanding or analysis of you posts, please feel free to correct me. I do not have a 'lock' on the truth. I just searching too.

In His Love,
Phillip

obeytheword
Aug 5th 2008, 08:41 PM
I, in my haste, have often failed to identify "Jacob's hour of trouble," as the second three and one half year period of Daniel's 'week' as correctly stated in this thread. My point being that the first half if this period is essential to my understanding of 2Thess.2:3, "except there come a falling away first."

The "covenant" of Daniel 9:27 refers the covenant of Moses, and the sacrificial system being given free reign in Jeruselum at the temple, as in previous times. Trouble begins at mid-point (Abomination of Desolations).
(2Thess2:4: Mt:24:15)

2Thess2:6-9 tells me that this will not happen until "he who now letteth" be taken out of the way. Can the church and Antichrist coexist on earth during the same period. And would that not become a clear sign to all that Christ is coming in exactly three and one half years, rather than as a thief in the night?

I have always been open to the idea of multiple raptures, but have never been satisfied that the scripture teaches it.

Revelation 12:7-17 speaks of the future event wherein the Devil is cast down to the earth... by almost all accounts referring to the trib era.

Scriptual proof? I refuse to pidgeon-hole people on these issues.l

Could you please take a look at a scripture with me?



1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

We ARE NOT IN DARKNESS - this day should not overtake us like a thief. The world will be deceived by the wonders of the antichrist and the false prophet. They will be convinced HE is the messiah. We however will be here, and not be deceived if we WATCH. If we go deep with God in prayer, we will see and discern the signs he clearly wanted us to be able to identify.



36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-23991f)] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.


A few things here to look at as well. At the time Jesus spoke nobody knew the day or the hour, eventually we WILL know, but at that time nobody knew for sure.


He likens it to the days of Noah. Did anyone know about the flood on the entire earth prior to the flood actually happening?


YES!! Someone DID know....


Noah knew!


Likewise he says the owner would have kept watch if he had known of a thief coming, and IF HE KEPT WATCH he could stop the thief. We are told then to Watch therefore. If we simply cannot ever know, then WHY would we watch? We are told to Watch so it DOES not take us unaware like it will the unbelievers.

Not trying to come across as heavy handed, but the point about it coming as a thief in the night is I believe an argument that is made in innocent error many times! It always seems to jump out at me and thump me in the head!

Be Blessed!

talmidim
Aug 5th 2008, 08:59 PM
Hi again my friend,

And thanks again for contributing. I am not proposing anything at this stage. Merely exploring possibilities. I was hoping that the OP would convey that point. And speaking of points, you bring up some good ones.

Oh, so you're wondering why there can't be multiple stages to the Rapture? That maybe, for instance, Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, and Post-Trib might actually all be correct?This is a question I have seriously explored. And while it at first look to be the case, later I found some problems with the concept. But not enough to abandon it completely. So I am not a proponent of all being correct. I am however convinced that we might not be fairly treating scripture in this regard. So I want to explore it further, that's all.

For one thing, Paul says in I Corinthians 15:51-52 that "we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye." If we're all going to be changed "in a flash", then how could there be multiple stages? Sounds to me like it all happens at once.But who is the 'we' of which Paul was speaking? As I read the scripture he is addressing those specifically 'in Christ'. And for me, that leaves a lot of people which remain unaccounted, unexplored and unexplained.

And that's not even going into a discussion about what would be the point of multiple Raptures. We're all equally forgiven and therefore equally "washed as white as snow" before the Lord, so why would one person merit a different Rapture time than another?But not all are in the same circumstances. But this is really not the point. Multiple raptures is not really the focus here. Our focus should be on why one view must preclude another.

I agree that the points you bring up are valid ones. They should be downstream from this discussion though.

Thanks again,
Phillip

talmidim
Aug 5th 2008, 09:17 PM
Hi SFASH,

And welcome to the discussion. Just to be clear, the OP is not about multiple raptures, although that could very well be an alternative view. The question is really, how does believing on view of the rapture timing automatically preclude any other view.

Much of our understanding of these events is based in how we interpret words, phrases, and symbols. And there seems to be as many opinions as there are possibilities. So why are we so eager to slam the door on other possibilities? Seems rather strange to me.

I, in my haste, have often failed to identify "Jacob's hour of trouble," as the second three and one half year period of Daniel's 'week' as correctly stated in this thread. My point being that the first half of this period is essential to my understanding of 2Thess.2:3, "except there come a falling away first."

The "covenant" of Daniel 9:27 refers the covenant of Moses, and the sacrificial system being given free reign in Jeruselum at the temple, as in previous times. Trouble begins at mid-point (Abomination of Desolations).
(2Thess2:4: Mt:24:15)

2Thess2:6-9 tells me that this will not happen until "he who now letteth" be taken out of the way. Can the church and Antichrist coexist on earth during the same period? And would that not become a clear sign to all that Christ is coming in a very predictable number of years, rather than as a thief in the night?

I have always been open to the idea of multiple raptures, but have never been satisfied that the scripture teaches it.

Revelation 12:7-17 speaks of the future event wherein the Devil is cast down to the earth... by almost all accounts referring to the trib era.

Scriptual proof? I refuse to pidgeon-hole people on these issues.lYour instinct to define the tribulation era in a search for a solution to these questions has merit. So does defining which Covenant is being addressed in which scripture. These need to be better defined in my estimation.

But what I find is often ignored, is the fact that there are two sides to every Covenant people. Those who keep Covenant and those that do not. And the Lord was clear in His Word, that there awaits different earthly and heavenly judgments on each group.

So I have a question. Do you think that those 'Christians' that have broken Covenant with the Messiah will be raptured? And if not, what happens to them? I ask this as rhetorical questions in relation to the OP. Do they make you wonder a little more about the rapture timing too?

Be Blessed,
Phillip

obeytheword
Aug 5th 2008, 09:31 PM
Your quote of 1 Thes 4 is misleading unless you acknowledge that Paul is speaking of the 'dead in Christ'. There is another Covenant to consider in which some have been found righteous in His sight. And there have been those that have, in ignorance, followed that Covenant. And there are the innocent to consider, and those that are not of the age of consent.

I am just raising other possibilities here...

Yes, he is speaking of the dead in Christ. I have a question for you. Was David one of those? He certainly was given prophetic insight into the nature of Christ and his suffering. Did he not live in faith of the promises given? His final speach at the coronation of Solomon certainly indicates he was not looking at things in the way of the natural...

I understand your point about the age of consent - and the earlier covenant, but it is honestly a bit beside the point. Please do not take this wrong, but all you do in this particular point is cast a shadow of doubt without offering another concrete interpretation. We are not in a criminal court where casting doubt will set someone free. We are openly examining the scriptures to determine what God is trying to show us! :)



I can see how non-Hebrew speakers would read that interpretation into those passages. But certainly you are aware the Hebrew people and more specifically the Levitical Priesthood, had names for every trumpet and shofar blast in every service, for every day and every Feast. And there is more than ample evidence that John has used Hebraic idioms and figures of speech in his writings. And it isn't unthinkable that the symbology of the Temple service would be used to explain what appears to be a service in the Temple in heaven. So to say that the 'last Trump' in 1 Thes is the same as the 7th Trumpet in the Revelation isn't exactly a slam dunk.

There room for other interpretations. So to establish such an important decision upon an unsettled point, to me seems premature.
Yes - I understand your point for sure. However, I believe that both the Lord and John most certainly KNEW that you and I would be here on this day, conversing about this,(the Lord really knew I suppose, and John would have assumed :)) and that throughout History there would be MANY MANY more non-hebrews reading the scripture. While the Lord most certainly "hides" things in plain sight in many cases through parables, etc - It is not his goal to confuse.

Please take this in the right tone, but you appear to be raising a straw man argument here. While what you say COULD be true. There is no evidence it is, and all it does is confuse the issue and essentially stop further inquiry. You have not offered another concrete interpretation of exactly what it means.



To say that this passage of scripture is open to interpretation is an understatement. Let me show you what I mean.

There are those that say that Matthew is specifically written to the Jewish people. And as such, is couched in terms both linguistically and culturally Hebraic. There are many that claim it was the only Gospel written in Hebrew and translated into Greek (a claim much debated). My point is that we may not completely take it's inherent 'Jewishness' into account when reading it.

Also, the Master was answering three questions that had been put to Him by His disciples early in this chapter. Questions formulated based on their understanding of prophecy and what Messiah had just told them about the destruction of the Temple (and therefore Jerusalem). And what individual remarks by the Master, covered which questions, is another unsettled debate. In other words, it is not quite as clear to some people as it seems to be to you.
The point about the trumpet in this was kindof an afterthought. The main point is look at the progression of the thought as you go through the passage. The ordering of events mentioned is very very intentional. There are many transitional passages that indicate the order of things.

Matthew talks about all kind of bad things, and how it will be worse than anything that has ever been, and ever will be - and then look at 29-31 again


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.AFTER the tribulation of those days the rapture will occur. I see no indication that a rapture will precede these events, but rather be after. A singular event. I understand that there are certainly some of the details that might slip past me, I honestly do not see a compelling reason to avoid or ignore clear writing that DO show passage of time and ordering of events. While you cannot necessarily pin down the exact ordering of ALL of it, 29-31 CERTAINLY go in the order as they are written - or you must turn scripture on its head to force another meaning into it.

I believe much of the confusion of this passage comes from saying (even if you are unaware of doing it) I believe there are multiple raptures - so this is just pretty darn complicated. or something along those lines. the vast vast majority of scripture is way more simple to understand than the current church wishes to accept.

When it says to obey - thats REALLY what it means! :)



About the 'day' of the Lord in Zechariah, haven't we already established that 'the day' is more than just one day? It is an event that spans a great deal of time, not just one day when He returns. So care must be exercised that too much is not read into it. I can tell you that many historical writings of the Hebrew people indicate that they understood it to be a series of events that culminated with the coming of the Messiah and His conquering the enemies of Israel. The Day isn't just one day.

Your remarks about the 'scholarly' impress me. They may be well deserved. And I, to a point, agree. But context is invaluable. Especially considering that our Messiah spoke in the terms with which His audience would identify. To fishermen He spoke in terms of fishing, farmers of farming, etc. And you may well ask at this point where am I going with this...

Do you remember where John was allowed into the High Priests house while Peter waited in the courtyard, later to deny Him thrice? Well the only people allowed in were kinsman. And John was of the priestly family of the High Priest, schooled in the mysteries of the Tabernacle since birth. So doesn't it make sense that the Revelation would be couched in the terms of the priesthood and the Temple service?

So how many on this site do you think evaluate the Revelation based on the scriptures, symbols, teachings and practices of the Aaronic priesthood? How much time do you spend in Leviticus when reading Revelation?

In terms of the OP, I still do not find compelling evidence that one view of the rapture timing precludes another. And while it is true that I have my own opinion. It is just that - an opinion.

The 'dead in Christ' does not cover all that are to be resurrected mentioned in 1 Thes. The 'last trump' is far from definitive outside of context. The 144,000, the two witnesses, the innocent, the underage, the countless number with the Lord at His return, none are not completely understood. And yet there are some who would attempt to steamroll any attempt at discussion with their immutable view.

What I do find interesting is that there are different judgments for different groups of people clearly spelled out in scripture. But that is largely ignored by our most prolific prognosticators and Revelation 'scholars'. Just as the scriptures about the priesthood and its practices are. And we are given an incomplete and skewed view of these events, just as the Pharisees did with their charges in their day.

Thank you for your contribution. Your honest approach is welcome. And your courteousness is much appreciated. I hope we can continue in this discussion. If there are problems that you see with my understanding or analysis of you posts, please feel free to correct me. I do not have a 'lock' on the truth. I just searching too.

In His Love,
Phillip

Yes - the Day of the Lord is most certainly not a single day. I personally believe it is a campaign. The Lord returns - gathering the elect, and then he marches up to Jerusalem as the bowl judgements are happending around him. Going into extreme detail here is way way beyond the mandate of the OP though :) This view most certainly agrees more with the hebrew mindset than the western one. He is coming down to set up shop here to rule the Whole Earth! YAY!

In terms of John inserting much of the levitical teachings into Revelation. One must ask how much he did that in the Gospel of John, and how much in 1-3 John? The Lord did not give the dream to him FOR him, but rather FOR us. If it was for him to write down, so that the ones on the Earth at the time of these events would need to know, then it was not written FOR John - so the examples of talking fish to fishermen, etc do not appear to directly apply. Though I DO believe that at least a basic understanding is vital to understanding all the details.

I know you do not see anything that precludes there being multiple raptures, but could you indulge us and give any evidence that there ARE multiple ones? Not just that there might be, but scripture that truly indicates it is likely?

While it can be debated about who exactly the dead in christ is referring to (I think it refers to all who died looking FORWARD to Christ, as well as those who died after looking BACK at him), I think it rather unlikely that it is appropriate to assume there are multiple raptures just because it might be possible that there are other groups out there.... I agree that all is not understood, but I feel it is inappropriate to try and fill in gaps with guesses if you understand what I mean by that?

Yes - different judgements are certainly there, but again, just because the possibility exists that we do not have every fact, I feel it is inappropriate to build a card house of guesses, and use that to disprove what the scriptures seem to indicate at face value.

As many other hebrew writings are a perfect testement of - the Pharisees FILLED in the gaps with things they thought were good, and over time eventually the things they put in there really messed up their understanding. That and their pride.

Again, I hope my post does not come across as attacking you in any way, but I feel it is critical for us to start with a blank slate, then go into the word and let the Word and the Spirit comingle and infuse us with understanding. Too much "wisdom" and "thinking" will put us in a very bad place!! I feel it is doing a dis-service to the body to "disprove" a point by casting the possibility of doubt without offering a concrete counter-example. The unbelievers already look at us as if we are crazy, at least they should see unity in our craziness!

Be Blessed!

IMINXTC
Aug 5th 2008, 11:21 PM
[quote=talmidim;1737919]Hi SFASH,

And welcome to the discussion. Just to be clear, the OP is not about multiple raptures, although that could very well be an alternative view. The question is really, how does believing on view of the rapture timing automatically preclude any other view.

Much of our understanding of these events is based in how we interpret words, phrases, and symbols. And there seems to be as many opinions as there are possibilities. So why are we so eager to slam the door on other possibilities? Seems rather strange to me.
Your instinct to define the tribulation era in a search for a solution to these questions has merit. So does defining which Covenant is being addressed in which scripture. These need to be better defined in my estimation.

But what I find is often ignored, is the fact that there are two sides to every Covenant people. Those who keep Covenant and those that do not. And the Lord was clear in His Word, that there awaits different earthly and heavenly judgments on each group.

So I have a question. Do you think that those 'Christians' that have broken Covenant with the Messiah will be raptured? And if not, what happens to them? I ask this as rhetorical questions in relation to the OP. Do they make you wonder a little more about the rapture timing too?

Be Blessed,
Phillip


If I understand your concept of "Breaking Covenant" correctly, in light of
the Gospel, those who are saved by faith in His finished work on the cross
have entered into an eternal covenant and only these (whether Jew or Greek, male or female), are his new covenant people, having been sealed by the Blood of Christ. Eph.2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

vv13-14: "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us.


But our Lord has not forgotten his covenant with his people Israel.

Rm.9:27" Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved."


To be unsaved (however churched) at the end of the church age is to be cast into a bed of tribulation. Rev 3:15,16


I would like to further comment later on the Earthly Covenant of Israel. Gotto Go

vinsight4u8
Aug 5th 2008, 11:40 PM
I find it interesting how many will say -Well, it will be like the days of Noah - as in Jesus is coming like a thief in the night.
I have thought - wait - Noah was building the ark. Noah could warn of the flood or wrath that was coming, but people could tell that if the ark was only half built, it was not the day of the downpour.

Jesus has told us many things, given us many warning signs that He is coming soon. We are told that when ye see - the abomination of desolation, we ye see all these things.
How could the church not be here to endure to the end?

Many want to use the time of the two witnesses rising from the dead - as proof of multiple raptures,
but
they need to think about what is shown in Rev. 11, for it is only the angel telling of what will happen.

two woes get told about
and the third woe (already just foretold by the angel) will come quickly.
The third woe must start before the two witnesses will rise.

~ the 7th trumpet
third woe earthquake is their resurrection hour

The angel split times apart to John.
Rev. 11
the two get slain by the beast
2nd woe

then after 3.5 days comes the great earthquake hour - needed for them to rise
(the third woe) =7th trumpet

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 6th 2008, 12:00 AM
I find it interesting how many will say -Well, it will be like the days of Noah - as in Jesus is coming like a thief in the night.
I have thought - wait - Noah was building the ark. Noah could warn of the flood or wrath that was coming, but people could tell that if the ark was only half built, it was not the day of the downpour.

Jesus has told us many things, given us many warning signs that He is coming soon. We are told that when ye see - the abomination of desolation, we ye see all these things.
How could the church not be here to endure to the end?

Many want to use the time of the two witnesses rising from the dead - as proof of multiple raptures,
but
they need to think about what is shown in Rev. 11, for it is only the angel telling of what will happen.

two woes get told about
and the third woe (already just foretold by the angel) will come quickly.
The third woe must start before the two witnesses will rise.

~ the 7th trumpet
third woe earthquake is their resurrection hour

The angel split times apart to John.
Rev. 11
the two get slain by the beast
2nd woe

then after 3.5 days comes the great earthquake hour - needed for them to rise
(the third woe) =7th trumpet

Actually all of Revelation from chapter 4 on is what "must be hereafter".

IMINXTC
Aug 6th 2008, 12:14 AM
Actually all of Revelation from chapter 4 on is what "must be hereafter".


A most critical point! And if there was ever proof, there it is! John bears witness to the presence of the church in Heaven, never again seen on Earth in the prophecy...the breaking of the seals commences in Chap. 6, the church bearing witness to these events and the events taking place on Earth. The problem arises when we attempt to place events within either of the two halves of the week of Daniel.

threebigrocks
Aug 6th 2008, 01:26 AM
Greeting and Blessings in His Name,

It is my hope that we can discuss this important issue with an open heart and mind. Because I can't help but think that some of us are short changing ourselves.

I have never understood why, if someone has proof of a particular tribulation belief, does it automatically disprove another? So let's honestly dissect this issue. How does a mid-trib or post-trib or pre-trib belief disprove any of the other tribulation beliefs of this category? Please back up you position with appropriate scripture, in context. And remember, it doesn't matter if your belief is right. It only matters how your belief disproves another.

Because of the nature of this discussion, I will respectfully ask that those that do not believe in a rapture or a literal 7-year tribulation period, please refrain from posting, as those views are moot to the point of this discussion. Thanks you.



Honestly, I've been very busy as of late and haven't read the entire thread through to this point, so forgive me if I repeat something.

First we need to prove that there is only one rapture. ;) Then we need to establish when it happens, as scripture lays out and without preconceived notions.

Really, a rapture is a "taking up". Like Christ was only taken up to the Father once bodily, we too can also only be taken up bodily once. Why would that be any different for us? If our hope is in the resurrection, then there can be only 1 resurrection for us also, correct?

To me, that's logical. There is 1 rapture.

When? The only time it's seen in scripture where we are caught up to the Lord is when He is coming in the clouds.

Many will use the following to say that it's a pretrib rapture.

Luke 17



33"Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
34"I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
35"There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.
36["Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."] 37And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."


One gone, the other remains. Can we say that half of the world are true followers of Christ according to how Christ would be pleased? If the path is wide - sure, half could be on there. But the gate through which we enter is narrow. ;)

We can draw similar equilivent reasoning from the parable of the 10 virgins. 5 were foolish. 5 weren't.

Thing is, these are all speaking of prepairing. Be prepaired. The rapture is not some sort of big secret, scripture never says that. Even as it was in the days of Noah God sent Noah to warn the people. Many didn't. They didn't listen, they didn't prepaire, they didn't repent.

It will be unexpected, because not all will be ready. Those who know how to read the signs will have a good idea - but even God's children don't know the day or the hour. We just must be ready. We are given signs, and told to be prepaired. The only place us being caught up is mentioned is as Christ descends from heaven.

vinsight4u8
Aug 6th 2008, 03:31 AM
Actually all of Revelation from chapter 4 on is what "must be hereafter".

What John does is take us clear to the point of the 7th trumpet at the end of Rev. 4.

If people want to understand when the rapture is, what can help is by knowing that yes, Rev. 4 starts with John caught up...but then he was caught up for a reason. John was caught up to see things, not behold a book that needed opened. Rev. 4 links up with chapters 12-15, and the rapture is shown by the harvest time of the one like the Son of man at cloud time in ch 14.

ch 4 - I will shew thee things which must be
ch 12 - wonders begin to be shown to John
"And there appeared..."
"And there appeared another wonder..."
ch 14 - the harvest by the one like the Son of man
ch 15 - another sign /the vials of God's wrath

While still in chapter 4, John was shown the harvest time comes before the vials of God's wrath.

Chapter 15 heads into more detail as to the seven angels and at the end of this chapter is where John was when he watched the trumpet plagues sounding.

"...till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."

Rev. 16
"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying, to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of God's wrath upon the earth."

/so trib is over / 7th trumpet sounds
then harvest / rapture / ch 14
the vials of God's wrath / ch 16

vinsight4u8
Aug 6th 2008, 03:37 AM
A most critical point! And if there was ever proof, there it is! John bears witness to the presence of the church in Heaven, never again seen on Earth in the prophecy...the breaking of the seals commences in Chap. 6, the church bearing witness to these events and the events taking place on Earth. The problem arises when we attempt to place events within either of the two halves of the week of Daniel.

But there is a reason that John sees the seals after the 24 elders cast off their golden crowns. The elders cast their crowns to the sealed book site. This is to keep events flowing smoothly - for John was in the time of the 7th trumpet had started, the 24 elders could no longer sit at the throne area, as John had seen them doing at the first part of the chapter. It was time to toss off their crowns - and John would be shown how the 7th trumpet event becomes also a 6th seal one.

talmidim
Aug 6th 2008, 07:38 AM
*snip*

Again, I hope my post does not come across as attacking you in any way, but I feel it is critical for us to start with a blank slate, then go into the word and let the Word and the Spirit comingle and infuse us with understanding. Too much "wisdom" and "thinking" will put us in a very bad place!! I feel it is doing a dis-service to the body to "disprove" a point by casting the possibility of doubt without offering a concrete counter-example. The unbelievers already look at us as if we are crazy, at least they should see unity in our craziness!

Be Blessed!Hello again obeytheword,

I did not take your post as an attack. But I do think you missed what I was trying to do. And I took the liberty to *snip* the majority of your post to answer this portion. This thread is not about offering concrete interpretations of the rapture or the Revelation. It never was. It is about scrutinizing some of the steps and mis-steps we have taken to get us where we are. And that is something no one seems to want to do.

I should have anticipated this. Because coming to a discussion with an open mind and willing to put aside all preconceived notions is difficult. So please don't take this as an attack on you either.

We are personally invested in our beliefs. Therefore it takes a desire to divorce one's ideas from one's self. It requires being able to answer the difficult questions from a place outside of our own glory. 'I'm right' is never the correct response in a situation such as this. Neither is 'my team' or 'my church' or 'my denomination' or 'my' anything. There is no glory in this save His. And a quest of this type often leaves us with more difficult questions. But there is nothing so powerful and beneficial to understanding than the good question.

You are right. I was not offering concrete explanations. I was trying to offer good questions.

I am sure that everyone has good intentions. And I am equally sure that everyone is sure of their position. Perhaps I should have stated the OP differently. But every question offered is for some, just another opportunity to profess what they believe; never listening nor giving an inch. Every opinion demands a response. And every invested feeling demands a defense. You were at least, among those that tried to conduct themselves with courtesy and respect. And I appreciate your efforts here. You have my sincerest thanks.

Unfortunately, this thread has turned into the same old rapture thread rehash and free-for-all that I wanted to avoid. And so I will bow out. It seems pointless to continue in the spirit I intended. Please forgive me everyone, for not making my intentions clearer at the outset.

Literalist-Luke, you were right. And I, like you, give up.

:giveup:

Good night all,
Phillip

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 6th 2008, 11:31 AM
What John does is take us clear to the point of the 7th trumpet at the end of Rev. 4.

If people want to understand when the rapture is, what can help is by knowing that yes, Rev. 4 starts with John caught up...but then he was caught up for a reason. John was caught up to see things, not behold a book that needed opened. Rev. 4 links up with chapters 12-15, and the rapture is shown by the harvest time of the one like the Son of man at cloud time in ch 14.

ch 4 - I will shew thee things which must be
ch 12 - wonders begin to be shown to John
"And there appeared..."
"And there appeared another wonder..."
ch 14 - the harvest by the one like the Son of man
ch 15 - another sign /the vials of God's wrath

While still in chapter 4, John was shown the harvest time comes before the vials of God's wrath.

Chapter 15 heads into more detail as to the seven angels and at the end of this chapter is where John was when he watched the trumpet plagues sounding.

"...till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."

Rev. 16
"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying, to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of God's wrath upon the earth."

/so trib is over / 7th trumpet sounds
then harvest / rapture / ch 14
the vials of God's wrath / ch 16

Sure John was called up to be able to see what is going on in Heaven and on earth. Many times I wish that John saw the visions of what happens from earth only. Then he would only be reporting the results of each step from our prospective. If he did then Revelation would be less debated and we could all agree but he didn't so here we are.

How do you know that everything from chapter 4 on is lumped into one thing? Why is it not a step by step progression?

vinsight4u8
Aug 6th 2008, 11:56 AM
Sure John was called up to be able to see what is going on in Heaven and on earth. Many times I wish that John saw the visions of what happens from earth only. Then he would only be reporting the results of each step from our prospective. If he did then Revelation would be less debated and we could all agree but he didn't so here we are.

How do you know that everything from chapter 4 on is lumped into one thing? Why is it not a step by step progression?

Towards the end of ch 4 we learn that the four beasts were not resting, day and night they were repeating and repeating their He is holy and coming type of phrase. This section for the phrase allowed John to experience some prophecy during that time. That is why 12:1 begins as to "a great wonder". Chapter 15 will then be stated as "another sign". While the four beasts are not resting as to saying their He is holy and will come message, John watched wonders appear. He saw chapters 12-15:4.

We split off chapters 1-3 and let chapter 4 bring a new start...because of this 4:1 phrase.

4:1
"After this I looked..."
4:1
"...I will shew thee things..."
summary
(12:1 - appeared a great wonder)
(12:3 -appeared another wonder)
(15:1 - another sign)
15:5 "And after that I looked..."
15:8 "till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."

Rev. 4
John will hear the four beasts non-stop day and night and he let us know when they stop that time - they will give thanks and the twenty-four elders start doing stuff.
The 24 elders were seated at the start of the chapter, and John shows us that they stay that way all during the time of the four beasts doing their repeating of the He will come message. Instead of John saying this went on for so long - such as 50 hours or 2 hours, John told us the events that happen when they stop their day and night He is holy phrase.

day and night phrase ends and John hears them say>
4:9
"And when those beasts give glory, and honour, and thanks to him that sat on the throne,..."
4:10
"The four and twenty elders fall down before him..."
/
These were seated elders - for John saw them sitting at the start of the chapter and never changed that view of them till now. So at the end of ch 4 - the seated time of the 24 elders draws to its close.

Here is what is being missed - and very important>
This falling down of seated elders can only happen once - for when they fall down - they will soon cast off their golden crowns.
/
This is a 7th trumpet event.
John has let us know that the four beasts quit their day and night phrase when it is about time for the 7th trumpet.

Rev. 11:15
"And the seventh angel sounded; and..."
"And the four and twenty elders, which sat...fell..."
v16

John has started to watch the 7th trumpet time at the end of ch 4, for the seated elders - once they fall, will not get seated again before God. The first time they fall down from the seated position, they gave their crowns away.

So at the end of ch 4 - the 7th trumpet seated time of the elders came where they fell, worshipped and cast off their crowns to His throne - then what?
Where the crowns landed - John saw the sealed book.

This is all so the church knows - the 7th trumpet began - but didn't end - because it will next be shown to John to place this trumpet time as coming during one of the seals.

carboy
Aug 6th 2008, 03:31 PM
Sorry to read the possibility of healthy growth is over. The moments in my walk that have truly humbled have come from revelation that corrects. This subject was one of them.

I have a back that is troublesome and my moments of siting at the computer must be managed. I was about to present evidence, with an open mind, that the resurrection and rapture happen "IN" the night. A time of darkness. This would provide evidence showing that pe-trib, post-trib and mid-trib appear to us because of a lack of harmony in the way we read the text and are influenced by theologies from the beginning of our new birth, I love correction, when it is correct, and realizing the OP a little better I was excited to lay it out.

Going back into this was trying at times. The word presented challenges to my now held belief. Fruitful discussion on this subject, who can find?

I salute the attempt, but am not surprised of the outcome.

By the way, Pre, mid or post are not correct. lol:spin:

Literalist-Luke
Aug 6th 2008, 08:30 PM
By the way, Pre, mid or post are not correct.Then what is? Are you Amill or something?

carboy
Aug 6th 2008, 09:43 PM
No, I'm not.

The signs in the heaven come BEFORE the Day of the LORD. The darkening of the sun, the bloody moon, the stars losing their shining. The appearing of Jesus coming in the clouds in Math 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 have more in common with 1thess 4:16,17 than Rev. 19: 11-16 where He comes on a white horse with an army.

I jest when I say these views are wrong because I believed pre-trib. My beginnings were in dispensational thought. Most believers I know believe in a pre-trib because that is what they have been taught. The fellowship I'm a part of is Pre-trib. As far as I know I'm the only one that isn't.

If you follow the darkness, of the coming night upon the earth, through the prophets the Bible flows in a simplicity that I can grasp.

I believe we are going in and at some point taken out of the Time of Jacobs trouble.

In the night, not just of moral darkness but literal darkness.

As Luke wrote "when you see these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads:for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

The virgins: a call came at midnight: Song of Solomon :the bridegroom comes in the night.

In Mathews gospel ch 24 when Jesus says "and after the tribulation of those days" look at what tribulation he is speaking of. I see no vial or trump judgements. I don't hold to a strait chronology of the Revelation but do believe some form of protection as in the plagues of Egypt.

At this time it seems to me that the Lord will take out the elect during the time of darkness, after the sun losses its' light and the moon and stars do their thing.

There is so much concerning the time approaching that I don't think I can do it justice. Only that Prophecy should be edifying to the body and I question how fruitful this format is to this subject.

I do salute the attempt by talmidim to bring health and edification to the discussion of the rapture.

It doesn't matter what I believe but what the bible says and I do believe that was the foundation attempting to be built here.

In Peace

IMINXTC
Aug 7th 2008, 02:05 AM
Well, you fellows certainly compell me to search the scriptures, and that's a blessed thing. And its my sincerest desire to make sure I am not relying on preconceived ideas, but the scripture alone. As we all are.

If I understand it correctly, the purpose of this thread is to determine among ourselves whether scripture proves one rapture truth can invalidate any other such theories. And I believe we can only get there from here. In other words, every perspective here needs to be given a fair, impartial hearing and needs to be checked against the Word.


In addition, since no one has posted yet: I understand that there can only be one truth. And if I were able to prove, finally, that the Bible teaches my rapture truth, or yours, well then, that would be truth and there could be no others.

The problem, as it exists today, is that there are those who are convinced that their rapture truth has been proven by the Word, just as much as I am convinced that the Word has proven mine, (and I am convinced). Therefore, as I have stated before, and usually do state, I refuse to pidgeon-hole believers into pre, mid, or post rapture slots... and refuse to be pidgeon-holed myself...Unless your theory is an outright denial of what scripture clearly teaches.


And this is where we get into some very sticky thickets. Many consider the letter to the churches in Asia Rev. Ch 2-3
to be evidence that certain believers enter into tribulation while others don't, based upon their actions. Many more believe that Jesus here describes a true church within a lost church. The lost church enters the tribulation; The word church in this view invloves both the outward trappings of churchianity and the true church. There are multitudes of new testament teachings, using the old-testament as an example to enforce this truth. 1Co. 10. Jude 5

Heb. 3:17-19 "But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

This is only one area of the difficulties involved in reaching a common understanding of the rapture. So I ask the question: Do I have the right to cleave the church into a pie-chart, based upon one's interpretation of future events, where there is no heretical denial of clear Bible teaching? At this point, even if I'm right I'm wrong, because I am causing division...a far greater wrong than that of misinterpreting the rapture. And who could deny the presence of a certain high-minded, overbearing mentality within the church today, based on intellectual prowess rather than the lovely, edifying and lowly presence of God's Holy Spirit?

prewrath rap
Jun 3rd 2009, 02:44 AM
I can't find any scritpure that says there is one and only one rapture. However I see only one place where the rapture is specificall mentioned (I thess 4). What is your view? Do you believe there is a pre, mid and a post trib rapture?

There is another rapture/resurrection mention in 1 Cor 15:50-57.

In both scriptures refer to the dead going before the living.

In 1 Cor scripture the trumpet is identified further as the LAST TRUMP.

Shalom
Mark

prewrath rap
Jun 3rd 2009, 03:09 AM
Hey Brother Mark!

Always a pleasure. So forgive me if I disagree. Your argument about Enoch and Elijah has merit, though some might characterize them as foreshadowings of the promise of 1 Thes. The others you describe would more accurately characterized as the firstfruit of a resurrection, not a 'rapture', per se. Because I am pretty sure you don't have any scriptural accounts of living Judeans ascending at that time. I would have remembered. Nor can they be characterized as 'dead in Christ' for we do not know to what Covenant they belonged (though the Mosaic seems likely, that too could be debated).

I am sure your contribution will push forward the discussion, but I wanted to clarify the context of these observations first. Feel free to disagree. I certainly haven't memorized all of scripture and I always learn something in my exchanges with you.
Hi 2 Peter 2:20, and welcome aboard. I was wondering if you think that the Two Witnesses also constitute a resurrection as opposed to a 'rapture' too? I think we have to be careful how we categorize these events because there seems to be an important difference that I want to discuss later.

Hi cwb,

I agree that I cannot scripture that pins our understanding to the concept of one and only one rapture. And it should be noted again that I view raptures and resurrections with certain distinction. Please read on for my views on multiple raptures as opposed to multiple resurrections.
Hi again 2P2,

You have a more open view of things than most and that sets you apart. But you still seem to be ready to eliminate a view without testing the question offered in the OP.

I saved this post for last for what I consider, a good reason. I have investigated this possibility of multiple raptures and resurrections. And lately my understanding of the matter has changed somewhat. So later on, I would like to discuss the possibilities and circumstances that might better explain these concepts. But not right now.

I still haven't seen any of the reasons why so many people ADAMANTLY insist that one view disproves another. vinsight4u8 has been the only person so far, willing to post scripture in favor of their view and subject it to scrutiny. It is one thing to profess a 'proof' to which everyone seems to agree. It is quite another to stop taking it for granted and honestly dissect it in the full view of others.

I would like to understand this loyal adherence to this belief. Does one view of the rapture actually disprove the others? The reason that this is important to me is simple. It is foundational to most rapture theories.

In His Love,
Phillip


First a clarification - in my view rapture and resurrection are the same thing. In both references by Paul (1 Cor & 1 Thess) the dead rise before the living so resurrection always occurs with rapture. They are not two different accounts. Second harvest is always associated with resurrection. Example one Jesus is the first fruit harvest of Passover/unleavened bread as described by Paul in 1 Cor 15:20-23. The next harvest occurs in the seventh month known as the harvest month yet future. This future harvest is described in Matt 13 parable the wheat and tares. This harvest is done by angels at one time then the tares are extracted first burnt in fire and the wheat is stored in the barns. Jesus clearly states that the tares are the wicked and the wheat are the righteous. This harvest occurs once.
Further and not talked about is the Last Day theology presented in gospel of John by Jesus himself four times in chapter six and by Martha in chapter 11.
In both references there is resurrection of the dead at the Last Day.

Now comes the question when is the Last Day?

The answer lies in the full understanding of the Jubilee.

it is my understanding the Last Day is the day of the Lord and will occur on the Day Of Atonement announcing the 120th "the last Jubilee of the 6000 year history of mankind. that day is fast approaching. So let's pray for strong disciples and go out and spread the good news.

Shalom
Mark

prewrath rap
Jun 3rd 2009, 03:24 AM
Yes, a resurrection since they are killed and brought back to life and a rapture or ascension as per scripture.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.



[SIZE=3][FONT=Verdana]

Proof for Pre...
[COLOR=#0000ff]1 Thessalonians 5:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 2:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=2&verse=5&version=9&context=verse)
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Revelation 6:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=6&verse=16&version=9&context=verse)
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=6&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

All of these are the same Greek word for "wrath". The first shows that we will not suffer wrath...What wrath?? I believe Paul tells us in Romans and John tells us in Revelation what that wrath is. Combine this with the sealing of the 144,000 from the TRIBES OF ISRAEL. They are the only ones protected during this time.

Proof for Mid...
Same as above and when combined with Daniel 9 and 2 Thess. 2

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

If the man of sin is revealed in the middle of the week or 3.5 years into the tribulation then that would be when the Mid would happen.

Basically it is the same. If the man of sin is revealed at the beginning of the tribulation then it is Pre...If he is revealed in the middle of the week then it is Mid.

Proof against Post...
Revelation 9:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=9&verse=20&version=31&context=verse)
The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.

This is before the 7th trumpet...normal post tribulation rapture timeline. It says the rest of mankind that were not killed still didn't repent. That tells me that none of mankind was "saved" hence the need to repent.



This is a deep subject and is just a short condensed version...



Problem is wrath does not occur until after the sign of the sun/moon/stars which is near the end. Clearly described in Matt 24 that the abomination of desolation occurs before the sign of the sun/moon/stars. The aod occurs at midpoint and there is much tribulation described as great tribulation during this period. The fifth seal describes this great tribulation period.

Shalom
Mark

prewrath rap
Jun 3rd 2009, 03:29 AM
Hi talmidim,

I'm not sure just what you saying as to 1 Cor. 15:51-54 doesn't fit (my words) as to including everyone.

1 Cor. 15:51
"...We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed...at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound..."

the dead shall be raised incorruptible
shall have put on incorruption
/
so it is the time of the resurrection of all of the just to get incorruption - bodies that can't die

then death will be swallowed up
/
but only as to the kind that ends with a resurrection to victory
/as in there will be no more eternal life grave people

victory through our Lord Jesus Christ for the dead is over
1 Cor. 15:23
"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Agree several positions have to explain this one away. amen

markedward
Jun 3rd 2009, 03:39 AM
How does a mid-trib or post-trib or pre-trib belief disprove any of the other tribulation beliefs of this category?Because by definition, if unique Event R happens after Event T, it is not possibly for it to also happen before or during Event T.

quiet dove
Jun 3rd 2009, 03:59 AM
Guys, not sure you realized this is an ancient thread and the posters may or may not be around, especially the OP, so I am going to close it. We can always start another.