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EaglesWINGS911
Aug 3rd 2008, 02:33 AM
Are the Jews still Gods Chosen People? Or are Christians now God's Chosen People? Or both? I'm confused...scripture please :confused

David Taylor
Aug 3rd 2008, 02:49 AM
What do those verses tell you the answer is?

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ

Romans 9:6 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed

John 8:33 The Jews answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

amazzin
Aug 3rd 2008, 03:03 AM
Are the Jews still Gods Chosen People? Or are Christians now God's Chosen People? Or both? I'm confused...scripture please :confused

Of course they are

"The earth is the Lord's and everything there-in"
"For God so loved the World that he gave us his only son"

apothanein kerdos
Aug 3rd 2008, 03:25 AM
Are the Jews still Gods Chosen People? Or are Christians now God's Chosen People? Or both? I'm confused...scripture please :confused

The answer is this: Both are chosen, but chosen for different purposes and in different way (Jewish choosing is non-salvific while Christian choosing is salvific).

Here (http://jborofsky.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/christianity-and-the-hebrewsdoc.pdf) is an article that deals with the issue. It's 50 pages but will succinctly answer your question. Though it begins dealing with anti-semitism, the middle portion deals primarily with how the Jews are still chosen.

If you don't want to read the entire thing and just want to deal with the portions related directly to your question, you should read the following pages:

4-5 ("A Great Nation" section)

15-33 (up to "Jewish Persecution of Christians")

Hope that helps

th1bill
Aug 3rd 2008, 03:25 AM
...To the Jew God promised to never forsake them forsake them that do not forsake Him for a thousand generations. A generation at the time of that promise was forty years but let's go very conservative and used today's standard of twenty-five years. that reads out to twenty-five thousand years and man has not been here but about sixthousand years, even science has agreed to that. Then, as the Jewish people turned from God, over and over we see that God has held a remnant of them, even today there is the Messianic Jew that believes on Jesus as the Messiah.
... The Christian, saved from out of the gentile peoples? We are grafted in because we have been adopted and are the adopted brothern of the Messanic Jew.

manichunter
Aug 3rd 2008, 06:35 AM
Are the Jews still Gods Chosen People? Or are Christians now God's Chosen People? Or both? I'm confused...scripture please :confused


Niether are God's chosen people if you want to use God's people legal and functioning name that adheres to their place, purpose, and inheritance in the Kingdom of God.

Israel birth name was Jacob. God made a special people who were not a people. They were begotten from a natural man by His change of character, purpose, and destiny. Now both Gentile and Israel after the flesh alike have been begotten from natural men and baptized into a spiritual life and reality. They have a new character, identity, and destiny as well. The say Christian is to not go far enough in this character, identity, and purpose. Christian means to be like Christ or Christ like. No man can be like Christ. But a man can be an Israel. Israel means to rule with God and have power with God.

Christianos- a follower of Christ
Israel- "he shall be a prince of God"

Gal 6:11-16
11 See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand! 12As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. 14But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom F24 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ga+6&t=nkj&st=1&new=1&l=en#F) the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.


God's people are a people who have been born again of the Spirit, and must now worship God in spirit and truth. They are of a spiritual kingdom and have been given the role and title of a royal priesthood and princes of God. They have power with God. They will one day be a people who will rule in a spiritual kingdom forever. They are Spritual Israel.

Gulah Papyrus
Aug 3rd 2008, 07:57 AM
Aren't 'God's chosen people' the decendants of Abraham?

Free_from_sin
Aug 3rd 2008, 07:58 AM
Are the Jews still Gods Chosen People? Or are Christians now God's Chosen People? Or both? I'm confused...scripture please :confused

Very good question. The true Jews are God's people- those who are jews inwardly according to the heart, not according to the flesh. In other words, Christians, whether they are known as Jews or Gentiles.

In the OT the Jews were God's chosen people. Chosen for what? To be the avenue through which He would bring the Messiah. Chosen why? Because of Abraham's obedience. So through Abraham the Jewish nation was born, God's people; and through the Jewish nation Jesus was born. And who are Christians born from? Jesus Christ. We all, Jew or Gentile, become a part of God's Spiritual New Testament Jerusalem when we are born again. The natural nation of Israel is no longer any different than any other nation in God's eyes. Because salvation is now through Jesus Christ alone, and only if a Jew comes in through Jesus Christ does he become a part of God's chosen nation, New Jerusalem.

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:28-29

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." Romans 10:12

"Jesus saith unto them, I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the father but by me." John 14:6

Gulah Papyrus
Aug 3rd 2008, 07:58 AM
Aren't 'God's chosen people' the decendants of Abraham?Sorry for the redundency, I posted before reading the thread.:blush:

Allon
Aug 3rd 2008, 09:48 AM
With the new covenant there is a new Israel, the new Israel is made up of both Jew and Gentile who have accepted Christ and become Christian.

Christ annuls the First Covenant to establish the Second. For, if that First Covenant had been faultless, then there would be no place for the Second. They did not persevere in My Covenant, saith the Lord, and I disregarded them. (Hebrews 10:9; 8:7-9)

Christ shall be slain, and the people who shall deny Him shall not be His. (Daniel 9:26)

The Gentiles have attained to justice, but Israel has not come unto the law of justice. Why? Because they sought it not by faith, for they stumbled at the Stumbing Stone. (Romans 9:30-32)

Christ is the Stone which was rejected which has become the cornerstone: nor is there salvation in any other. For, there is no other name under Heaven whereby we must be saved. ( Acts 4:10-12)

Many shall come from the East and the West, and sit down in the kingdom of Heaven, but the children of the kingdom shall be cast out, into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (St. Matthew 8:11-12)

Therefore, I say to you: the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof. (St. Matthew 21:43)

The Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets and have persecuted us, do not please God, and they have become adversaries to all men, to fill up their sin always; for the wrath of God has come upon them to the end. (I Thessalonians 2:14-16)

Whosoever denies the Son does not have the Father. (I St. John 2:23)

He who honors not the Son, honors not the Father Who sent Him. He who hates Me, hates My Father also. (St. John 5:23; 15:23)

If any man love not Our Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema. (I Corinthians 16:22)

nzyr
Aug 3rd 2008, 10:48 AM
The Jews are still God's people. And God still cares about them. If a nation treats them bad God punishes them. I believe the Jews will be converted at the second coming of Jesus.

This describes Christians:

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. -1 Peter 2:9-10

David Taylor
Aug 3rd 2008, 01:13 PM
Aren't 'God's chosen people' the decendants of Abraham?
Jesus and Paul both explained who Abraham descendents are.


John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Romans 9:6 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed

Ta-An
Aug 3rd 2008, 01:29 PM
Romans 9:6 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God


Children of the flesh refers to the children of Abraham with the slave-woman, (Gal.4:31)...... who will not share in the promise G_d made to Abraham, unless they become children of faith.
The Jews are children of G_d because of the Promise, born to the free-woman and we are children of G_d because of our faith in Him..


Gal 3:26 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

humbled
Aug 3rd 2008, 03:12 PM
Are the Jews still Gods Chosen People? Or are Christians now God's Chosen People? Or both? I'm confused...scripture please :confusedThe Jews never were God's chosen people. The entire book of Romans explains how God's chosen people were the children of the PROMISE, not children of the FLESH.

Don't have the time right this moment to surf for Scriptures, but Romans says God is "no respecter of persons" and that "not all who are descended from Israel are Israel" and that God is "not the God of the Jews only, but of Gentiles also."

Replacement theology, which it seems you are espousing here, is bad theology which leads to "Left Behind" theology, which is REALLY bad theology.

I'm right now in a millennial kick, where I'm learning about Post-, Pre- and A-millennialism. Very intriguing. Eschatology explains how to better look at the entire bible, and with a Pre trib theology, you end up having to look at two different "people of God", which is entirely untrue.

God's chosen people from day 1 are the Israel of FAITH ... the children of the PROMISE. The REMNANT of the Jews are God's chosen people (also found in Romans, as well as many other places in the NT), but the Jews as a whole are clearly NOT God's chosen people, for they have rejected Him.

Sorry I can't give you specific Scriptures this morning, but do a search on some of the phrases I've given and you'll get close.

Ta-An
Aug 3rd 2008, 03:19 PM
The Jews never were God's chosen people. The entire book of Romans explains how God's chosen people were the children of the PROMISE, not children of the FLESH.

.The Jews are G_d's chosen people. The Jews are the descendants of Abraham through Isaac, children of the Promise, they are the children of the free-woman, the promise G_d made to Abraham.... the slave-woman's children are children of the flesh :) they are the children if Ishmael

We do not replace the children of the Promise (Jews), we are co-heirs of this same promise " heirs with him of the same promise":

We (Christians) are children of Faith.... the reason I believe the word "Faith" is used is two-fold....
* Abraham had to believe G_d for the promise, and so
** we believe G_d that we are His children through faith, the same kind of faith that Abraham had to have to believe G_d.

Friend of I AM
Aug 3rd 2008, 04:39 PM
Are the Jews still Gods Chosen People? Or are Christians now God's Chosen People? Or both? I'm confused...scripture please :confused

Well, yes in a sense they are - being that the original covenant made with Jacob. But Israel was no longer known as a nation after the fall of Jerusalem and the death of Christ. They were spread among the nations and mixed with various peoples, so I think one who has faith like Abraham is considered a spiritual jew despite their bloodline at this point.

In Christ,

Stephen

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 3rd 2008, 05:23 PM
The Jews never were God's chosen people. The entire book of Romans explains how God's chosen people were the children of the PROMISE, not children of the FLESH.

Don't have the time right this moment to surf for Scriptures, but Romans says God is "no respecter of persons" and that "not all who are descended from Israel are Israel" and that God is "not the God of the Jews only, but of Gentiles also."

Replacement theology, which it seems you are espousing here, is bad theology which leads to "Left Behind" theology, which is REALLY bad theology.

I'm right now in a millennial kick, where I'm learning about Post-, Pre- and A-millennialism. Very intriguing. Eschatology explains how to better look at the entire bible, and with a Pre trib theology, you end up having to look at two different "people of God", which is entirely untrue.

God's chosen people from day 1 are the Israel of FAITH ... the children of the PROMISE. The REMNANT of the Jews are God's chosen people (also found in Romans, as well as many other places in the NT), but the Jews as a whole are clearly NOT God's chosen people, for they have rejected Him.

Sorry I can't give you specific Scriptures this morning, but do a search on some of the phrases I've given and you'll get close.

Now humbled come on...:P
You can't say things like God is no respecter of persons here and in our other conversation imply things like God has mercy on who he chooses to have mercy. This in itself is repecting persons and not treating everyone the same. I do agree that God has hardened many but I also believe they were provided a way to repent...thus giving an opportunity for ALL men to be saved but not ALL will take that opportunity.;)

Now to get back on this subject...

Romans 11
7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,

It says that ONLY the elect of Israel obtained the promise of grace and the others were hardened...Who are the others? Is it not the rest of Israel? Look at verse 11 for your answer. For lack of a better word I'll use the word "non-elect Israel".

8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day." 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."

Ingrafted Branches
11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

Who's transgression? Non-elect Israel.
Did they stumble beyond recovery? By no means.


13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

The elect Israel already obtained it...remember verse 7. So Paul is talking about about another group of people...his own people...Israel.

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

This "replacement" is not a theology. It is exactly what has happened. The branches were cut off and others replaced. Later on the natural branches will be grafted back in.

18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

All Israel Will Be Saved
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

BroRog
Aug 3rd 2008, 05:58 PM
Aren't 'God's chosen people' the decendants of Abraham?

No, rather they are the descendants of Jacob. Remember the verse, "Out of Egypt I have called my son." This is speaking of the descendants of Jacob.

BroRog
Aug 3rd 2008, 06:03 PM
Well, yes in a sense they are - being that the original covenant made with Jacob. But Israel was no longer known as a nation after the fall of Jerusalem and the death of Christ. They were spread among the nations and mixed with various peoples, so I think one who has faith like Abraham is considered a spiritual jew despite their bloodline at this point.

In Christ,

Stephen

If the Babylonian captivity can be used as a typical example, then Israel's exile after 70AD does not imply that they are no longer God's chosen people. Israel will remain God's chosen people, not because of anything they did or failed to do, but because of God's "chesed" covenant faithfulness.

humbled
Aug 3rd 2008, 08:23 PM
Now humbled come on...:P
You can't say things like God is no respecter of persons here and in our other conversation imply things like God has mercy on who he chooses to have mercy. Paul said those very things in the same letter. I'm merely applying what the meaning is. Paul is not speaking individually, but corporately.

On one hand, you have God not being partial to one race/group of people (no respecter of persons corporately), but on the other hand, you have Him having mercy on whom He has mercy (individually as in Pharoah).

What Paul means by "no respecter of persons" is that God has no chosen race of people as the Jews considered themselves (and still do, for that matter). Read the context, in ch 2, Paul is lecturing the self righteous Jews for judging the pagan Gentiles for their sinfulness, but how does ch2 start? "You have no excuse YOU WHO PRACTICE THE SAME THING" speaking to the Jews. In the same context, he says that there is SALVATION to all races, NOT JEW ONLY when he says this: "but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God."

It is clear this is speaking TO Jews ABOUT the scope of God's grace ... it is not for Jews only, but for ALL races (not all individuals, but all people groups -- Rev 7.9).

This is why I can say confidently with Paul that the Jews are NOT God's "chosen people". The children of the PROMISE are God's chosen people. Chosen before the foundation of the world to be found blameless in Christ.

CoffeeCat
Aug 3rd 2008, 08:37 PM
This topic interests me. I have a quick question on it.

Is it true that a Jew who believes in God alone (not Jesus) is saved because Jews are God's chosen people, and that a Christian who believes in Jesus is also saved? (two ways God saves)

Or is it true that Jews and Christians alike can ONLY be saved if they believe in Jesus? Ie, Messianic Jews? <-- This option here is the one I've leaned towards and been taught, but I want and need to know if I am overlooking something. (and because God IS God, I often do miss just how deep His grace runs, at first!)

Thanks.

Bethshaya
Aug 3rd 2008, 09:40 PM
If they aren't still God's chosen people, that would make God a liar, wouldn't it? And since God is the same, yesterday, today and forever, he doesn't change his mind, then He isnt a liar.

BroRog
Aug 3rd 2008, 09:50 PM
This topic interests me. I have a quick question on it.

Is it true that a Jew who believes in God alone (not Jesus) is saved because Jews are God's chosen people, and that a Christian who believes in Jesus is also saved? (two ways God saves)

Or is it true that Jews and Christians alike can ONLY be saved if they believe in Jesus? Ie, Messianic Jews? <-- This option here is the one I've leaned towards and been taught, but I want and need to know if I am overlooking something. (and because God IS God, I often do miss just how deep His grace runs, at first!)

Thanks.

I would say no, it isn't true that a Jew is saved because he is one of God's chosen people.

Technically, salvation is by grace and God saves whomever he wants to save. When a man or woman believes in Jesus, this is evidence that he or she is being saved. According to Hebrews, faith is the evidence that a person is being saved (that which is unseen.) And so, anyone who is being saved will accept Jesus as Messiah, whether that person grew up in a Christian family, a Jewish family, or an atheist family.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 3rd 2008, 10:43 PM
Paul said those very things in the same letter. I'm merely applying what the meaning is. Paul is not speaking individually, but corporately.

On one hand, you have God not being partial to one race/group of people (no respecter of persons corporately), but on the other hand, you have Him having mercy on whom He has mercy (individually as in Pharoah).

What Paul means by "no respecter of persons" is that God has no chosen race of people as the Jews considered themselves (and still do, for that matter). Read the context, in ch 2, Paul is lecturing the self righteous Jews for judging the pagan Gentiles for their sinfulness, but how does ch2 start? "You have no excuse YOU WHO PRACTICE THE SAME THING" speaking to the Jews. In the same context, he says that there is SALVATION to all races, NOT JEW ONLY when he says this: "but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God."

It is clear this is speaking TO Jews ABOUT the scope of God's grace ... it is not for Jews only, but for ALL races (not all individuals, but all people groups -- Rev 7.9).

This is why I can say confidently with Paul that the Jews are NOT God's "chosen people". The children of the PROMISE are God's chosen people. Chosen before the foundation of the world to be found blameless in Christ.

You ask me to read the context of chapter 2 and I ask you to read the context of chapter 11 and that is the very reason I posted so much of chapter 11. The context is that only the elect are STILL grafted into the root. Not all Jews were cut off only the "non-elect" were cut off. We Gentiles who believe on our Lord Jesus are grafted into that same root through their (those that were cut off) unbelief a way was made for us. At some point...after the fullness of the Gentiles have come in, the branches that were cut off will be grafted back in. Thus reconciling those Jews back to Christ. They have been and always will be the people of God. The context of chapter 11 tells us that the Gentiles were not a people but now they are for those who believe in Christ.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 3rd 2008, 10:58 PM
Once again:


'Chosen' does not mean 'saved.' The Jews - as a whole - are still chosen. They were chosen in the OT for the same reason they are today - to serve as an example of God's faithfulness. There is simply too much about the Jewish people that has yet to be fulfilled (such as the entire book of Hosea).

If anyone wants to disagree, I have already linked an article and posted what pages are most relevant to what I have to say.

ananias
Aug 3rd 2008, 11:29 PM
The N.T makes it very clear: God's chosen nation came into being through God's calling and eternal election of Abraham and his descendants (seed), BUT :

"And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and became a sharer of the root and the fatness of the olive tree with them," (Rom.11: 17)

So which branches were broken off? The natural branches - the natural seed - who rejected Christ.

And which branches are grafted in? The unnatural branches (the Gentiles who believe in Jesus).

And "among whom" are these unnatural branches grafted in?:

"But what does the Divine answer say to him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." (Rom.11: 4).

Paul opens Romans chapter 11 by speaking of the remnant (small minority) of the natural seed who were not "broken off" through unbelief - then in verse 17, he says that Gentile believers are grafted in among that remnant, to share with them "in the root and fatness of the olive tree" (Israel) - we become "the seed of Abraham", as Paul says elsewhere.

But it's not a "New Covenant" nation - the election of the nation was based on God's calling and eternal electin of Abraham and his descendants:

"And I say this, A covenant having been ratified by God in Christ, the Law (coming into being four hundred and thirty years after) does not annul the promise, so as to abolish it. For if the inheritance is of Law, it is no more of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by way of promise." (Gal.3: 17-18). The promise of the New Covenant cited only the law (Jer.31: 32) - not the Abrahamic Covenant or the davidic Covenant.

Also, Paul does not say that the Gentiles who believe are gafted into "their own olive tree again" if they repent of their unblief - but he does say that of the natural seed:

"And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the natural wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more these (natural seed) being according to nature will be grafted into their own olive-tree? (Rom.11: 23-24).

The Gentiles are not grafted into "their own olive tree" "again" when they repent and turn to Jesus - they're merely joined to the same Israel that always existed, "grafted in" among the remnant (Rom.11: 17) of the natural seed:

"And I have other sheep who are not of this fold. I must also lead those, and they shall hear My voice, and there shall be one flock, one Shepherd." (Joh.10: 16)

The Old Testament temple did not come with God's eternal election of Abraham and his descendants - it came 430 years later, with the Law, which Paul said in Gal.3: 17-18 cannot annul God's promise to Abraham and his descendants - and the Covneant of Law was the only Covenant cited for supercession by the promise of the New Covenant (Jer.31: 32).

The New Testament temple is a spiritual house made up of all the members of the elect nation.

God has promised that because He had mercy on the Gentiles because of the unbelief of the natural seed who were broken off, he will also eventually have mercy on the descendants of the natural seed because of the mercy He had on the Gentiles:

"For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the nations (the Gentiles) has come in. And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is My covenant with them, when I have taken away their sins." Indeed as regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes (note: until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in). But as regards the election (note: of Abraham and his descendants), they are beloved for the fathers' (note: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, or Israel) sakes. For the free gifts (grace of God) and calling (note: eternal election of Abraham and his descendants) of God are without repentance. For as you (note: the Gentiles) also then (note: in past times) disbelieved God, but now have been shown mercy through their disbelief, even so these also have not believed now, so that through your mercy they may also obtain mercy." (Rom.11: 25-31).

For the sake fo God's promise to Abraham, a time is coming when He will have mercy on the remnant of Abraham's descendants - but not before they all repent of their unbelief:

For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on UNTIL you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." (Mat.23: 39).

It will not be for their sakes that God will do this, but for His holy name's sake - which is linked with His ancient Covenant-promise with Abraham and his descendants:

"Therefore say to the house of Israel, So says the Lord Jehovah: I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name's sake, which you have profaned among the nations where you went..." (Eze.36: 22).

This promise and prophecy was made when Ezekiel was in exile in Babylon - but it spoke of a restoration of the (natural) seed of Abraham to God and to their land from A WORLD-WIDE DIESPERSION after God had "scattered them among the nations" - AND IT PROMISED THAT GOD WOULD PUT HIS SPIRIT IN THEM and give them a new heart, etc - NEW COVENANT promises - which God says He will do for them "NOT FOR THEIR SAKES" (not for any merit on their part) BUT FOR HIS HOLY NAME'S SAKE.

The prophecy is very specific - and speaks of a restoration to God AND to the land - and from here on, Ezekiel parallels the Revelation - IF the millennium is taken up LITERALLY:

Ezekiel:

Ch. 25-36 Judgment of seven Gentile nations, restoration of the natural seed of Jacob.
Ch. 36-37 Resurrection of the dead, followed by a prolonged period of peace and prosperityfor Israel in the land.
Ch. 38-39 At the close of the prolonged period of peace, a final rebellion led by Gog of the land of Magog. Judgment of Gog.
Ch. 40-48 Detailed dimensions of a new city and new Temple which has never been built according to the dimensions given - in which flows the river of Life.

Revelation:
Ch. 19: 11-21 Judgment of the nations (the seven-headed beast).

Ch. 20: 1-6 Resurrection of those who died in Christ, Satan bound & a thousand years of peace.
Ch. 20: 7-15 At the close of the millennium of peace, a final rebellion (Gog and Magog). Judgment of Gog, followed by a final “great white throne” judgment.
Ch.21-22 A new heavens, a new earth and a New Jerusalem - in which flows the river of Life.

Of course, a-millennilists can't see things this way (no criticism) - it can only occur this way if the millennium (Revelation 20) is literal

ananias.

JesusMySavior
Aug 4th 2008, 06:01 AM
"For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile — the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for
'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" (Romans 10:12)

"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." (1 Corinthians 12:13)

" There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

" Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all." (Colossians 3:11)


Many people make the mistake of either casting off the Jews completely or coming up with this teaching that they are somehow "superior" to Christians, so it's "all hail the jew and all respect to Israel and all her descendants". Indeed we must thank God for the jewish people, for "salvation is from the jews" (John 4:22b), but as noted above, all are one in Christ Jesus. He died for everyone - slave and free, rich and poor, Jew and Greek.

The way a fellow friend and youth pastor of mine put it was - in related words, "Israel is merely the country God CHOSE to lead everyone else, kind of like how you have a support system and you have leaders and presidents and VP's and all that". And it made a lot of sense to me.

So don't worry about God not caring for you as much as you thought He did. We're kinda like toddlers who cry when the newborn gets the attention - but that's not so with God. He's equal and has more than enough love and time for each and every one of us!

Let's all share this wonderful crib together! :lol:

brakelite
Aug 4th 2008, 08:16 AM
For what purpose was Israel chosen in the first place? Was it not to reveal the character and love of God to as world lost in idolatry and pagan perversions?
Not only so, but also for the fact that God loved man so much that He simply wanted to have someone to fellowship with. So He chose Abraham, and accepted His descendants as His special people because of Abraham's obedience. God's continuing favour was conditional however on Israel's continuing obedience and faithfulnass. God certainly promised that He would never reject them, but He gave many warnings of what would result of their rejecting Him.

By the time of Jesus, the national religion was so corrupted that they were suffering relentlessly under the harsh rule of an occupying power. A fulfilment of one of the warnings. That Jesus came though confirms God's faithfulness. He had not yet rejected them. He was giving them every opportunity to repent, and reestablish truth to their now formalised and meaningless ceremonies. Jesus came to set them straight. He was the last in a long line of prophets who were sent by the owner of the vineyard, all of whom they killed. Would they kill the Son also?

When Jesus entered the temple for the first time He found it a mess.
So Jesus went about to clean up His Father's house.
John 2:13 And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.
17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.


Then, later on in His ministry, again He visited the temple, only to find it had reverted to what it had been before, So, again Jesus cleansed it.

Mathew 21:12 ¶ And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.


When the Jews questioned Jesus authority, He told them the following parable.



Mathew 21:33 ¶ Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.


Notice this very important thing. When cleansing the temple the first time, Jesus called it My Father's house.

At the second cleansing, Jesus quoted the OT and referred to it again as being My house.

Continuing to reject Jesus authority and teaching however, brought upon the religious rulers the woes of Mathew 23. Denunciations of no mean character and judgment.
Jesus laments their obstinacy and rebellion with His heart rendering cry of "O Jerusalem,Jerusalem. thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Then take careful note. He finishes His address with the following words.
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


Whose house is it now? Is it God's house? No.His Father's house? No. My house? No. He says Your house!!! They rejected the Son, therefore the kingdom was given to a nation that would bear the fruit and fulfill the purposes that God originally intended. The church. A holy nation, a royal priesthood.

Has God rejected His people though? No. They can still be grafted back into the vine, but they must first renounce and repent of their rejection of their Messiah and accept Him. Then, and only then, can any Jew enter the kingdom of God. Same condition as set out for anyone else. "No man cometh unto the Father except by Me."

brakelite
Aug 4th 2008, 08:22 AM
A couple of further thoughts. The duties that Israel spurned now is the responsibility of the church. It uis now our duty to reveal the love and character of God to a world lost in sin and idolatry. And it is the church that God has fellowship with by His Spirit. We are now temples of the Holy Spirit.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Friend of I AM
Aug 4th 2008, 04:19 PM
If the Babylonian captivity can be used as a typical example, then Israel's exile after 70AD does not imply that they are no longer God's chosen people. Israel will remain God's chosen people, not because of anything they did or failed to do, but because of God's "chesed" covenant faithfulness.

At this point in time though, geneologically - it's very difficult to tell who is an Israelite. John the Baptist even stated to the Pharisees something along the lines of "don't think because you claim to be a son of Abraham that you'll be offered salvation."

I think those who are true Israelites nowadays are looked at through the covenant of "faith" as oppossed to geneology. Remember neither slave, nor jew, male nor female..so one is a son of Abraham through faith in Christ, as oppossed to their geneology/race.

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 4th 2008, 04:33 PM
"For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile — the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for
'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" (Romans 10:12)

"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." (1 Corinthians 12:13)

" There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

" Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all." (Colossians 3:11)


Many people make the mistake of either casting off the Jews completely or coming up with this teaching that they are somehow "superior" to Christians, so it's "all hail the jew and all respect to Israel and all her descendants". Indeed we must thank God for the jewish people, for "salvation is from the jews" (John 4:22b), but as noted above, all are one in Christ Jesus. He died for everyone - slave and free, rich and poor, Jew and Greek.

The way a fellow friend and youth pastor of mine put it was - in related words, "Israel is merely the country God CHOSE to lead everyone else, kind of like how you have a support system and you have leaders and presidents and VP's and all that". And it made a lot of sense to me.

So don't worry about God not caring for you as much as you thought He did. We're kinda like toddlers who cry when the newborn gets the attention - but that's not so with God. He's equal and has more than enough love and time for each and every one of us!

Let's all share this wonderful crib together! :lol:

No difference??? Why does He only seal the tribes of Israel??

3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

I don't see any mention of Gentiles in the above 2 passages only the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel. These 144,000 have a special song that no one can learn...only them.

I agree that we are one in Christ but Israel is God's chosen people. They have just been cut off for a time so that we could have a way to be grafted in.

Friend of I AM
Aug 4th 2008, 04:39 PM
No difference??? Why does He only seal the tribes of Israel??


I'll have to think about that one myself. What's strange is that the Word does go into saying be careful about getting into geneological debates. But as you've posted does make one think about who these people actually represent...

Ta-An
Aug 4th 2008, 05:30 PM
2 Peter 2:20, I see these 144 000 as those Jews who have come through the tribulation :)

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 4th 2008, 05:58 PM
2 Peter 2:20, I see these 144 000 as those Jews who have come through the tribulation :)

I do too...

They are Israel and if you notice they are sealed before the land, sea, or trees are harmed. This might indicate that although the seals have been broken they (the horsemen) were held back until the 144,000 could be sealed or it is how it is read and they are sealed before the trumpets.

Ta-An
Aug 4th 2008, 07:03 PM
I do too...

They are Israel and if you notice they are sealed before the land, sea, or trees are harmed. This might indicate that although the seals have been broken they (the horsemen) were held back until the 144,000 could be sealed or it is how it is read and they are sealed before the trumpets. A sign of G_d's mercy perhaps :hmm:

timmyb
Aug 4th 2008, 07:38 PM
they are still chosen by God and he will establish his throne in Jerusalem forever... Gentiles have been grafted in ... while there is no difference, we all have the same problem... we play different roles in the body of Christ... we have a different position on the team and we are to encourage each other in those roles

ananias
Aug 4th 2008, 08:00 PM
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal.3: 28).

Yes, o.k, but there's no male and female in Christ - but in the world there's still a distinction - not as regards favorotism. Likewise with "labor-class and company-direcor class" ("slave nor free" - if you'll pardon the pun). Same with Jew (natural seed) and Gentile (unnatural branches grafted in - Rom.11; 17).

No favorotism. Just distinction.

Twelve tribes of Revelation 7 - sealed with the seall of God - in other words, Jews who are becoming Christians

Still a distinction in the world between male and female, Jew (natural seed) and Gentile - no favoritism, just distinction.

ananias.

Friend of I AM
Aug 5th 2008, 02:59 PM
they are still chosen by God and he will establish his throne in Jerusalem forever... Gentiles have been grafted in ... while there is no difference, we all have the same problem... we play different roles in the body of Christ... we have a different position on the team and we are to encourage each other in those roles

Hey Timmy,

The only problem here is that geneology has been mixed up soo much over the years. I think the 12 tribes are referenced more in a metaphoric sense then they are in a geneological one. What they represent metaphorically I do not know. If you think about it, many people could claim lineage with Abraham/Jacob geneologically who don't even claim to be jews(probably moreso than those who claim to be jews in Israel right now) I think there was a genetic test done some time ago and it was found that many of the people in Israel right now had very little geneological relation to those "jews" who currently reside there.

David Taylor
Aug 5th 2008, 03:16 PM
No difference??? Why does He only seal the tribes of Israel??

3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

I don't see any mention of Gentiles in the above 2 passages only the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel. These 144,000 have a special song that no one can learn...only them.

I agree that we are one in Christ but Israel is God's chosen people. They have just been cut off for a time so that we could have a way to be grafted in.

The first group in Revelation chapter 7 depicts, as John tells us later in chapter 14, the Firstfruits unto God and the Lamb. What results from that firstfruits group described in the first part of chapter 7, is the subsequent second group described in chapter 7, the uncountable multitude from every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Israel was the firstfruits...followed by the uncountable multitude where race and ethnicity were no longer a wall of partition.

The Gospels and Acts are repleat with showing many, many great multitudes from Israel (the firstfruits) coming to the Lord; then afterward the great harvest went out to all nations (the uncountable multitude).

James wrote just this in his epistle, when he address his brethren from among the 12 tribes and said that they were the firstfruits...and this was in the 1st century A.D......not something postponed until the 21st century after the great harvest as a last-fruits.

God's People from the 1st century forward, are simply those who follow Jesus. Jew and Gentile; with no wall of partition, and no difference.
The 144K represent those of Israel who came to Christ prior to the NT Harvest of the uncountable multitude from all nations (Jews and Gentiles undescriminantly).

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 5th 2008, 04:52 PM
The first group in Revelation chapter 7 depicts, as John tells us later in chapter 14, the Firstfruits unto God and the Lamb. What results from that firstfruits group described in the first part of chapter 7, is the subsequent second group described in chapter 7, the uncountable multitude from every tongue, tribe, and nation.


The difference is the sealed are on the earth and the multitude is before the throne. One is here the other is there.

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb.

The multitude is in Heaven and those being sealed are still on the earth. Two different groups completely.

The 144K can't be the 1st century believers since all of them are dead and they are not on the earth anymore. Why would it matter whether the land, sea or trees are harmed for a bunch of people who have been dead for 2000 years. In the earth yes but not on the earth. Unless you are saying they are resurrected to be on the earth to be sealed??

John146
Aug 5th 2008, 04:59 PM
The Jews are G_d's chosen people. The Jews are the descendants of Abraham through Isaac, children of the Promise, they are the children of the free-womanWhat did Paul have to say about this?

22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Who was Paul speaking to there? The churches of Galatia (Gal 1:2). There may have been some Jews in those churches but there obviously were plenty of Gentiles. And Paul said that the freewoman, which figuratively represents both the new covenant and the heavenly Jerusalem, is the mother of us all. This includes Gentile believers. Paul says that we (Jew and Gentile believers alike), as Isaac was, are the children of promise. He wasn't speaking of Jews of the flesh. He was speaking only of those who are Jews inwardly (see Rom 2:28-29). But you seem to be saying that the freewoman represents Jews of the flesh and, if so, I completely disagree.

John146
Aug 5th 2008, 05:24 PM
No difference??? Why does He only seal the tribes of Israel??

3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

I don't see any mention of Gentiles in the above 2 passages only the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel. These 144,000 have a special song that no one can learn...only them.

I agree that we are one in Christ but Israel is God's chosen people. They have just been cut off for a time so that we could have a way to be grafted in.Who does scripture say are God's chosen people? Just those who are the descendants of the nation of Israel? No.

Here are passages that include Gentile believers among God's chosen people.

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: - Ephesians 1:1-4

That passage says that "the saints which are at Ephesus" and "the faithful in Christ Jesus" are among God's chosen.

Here is Paul speaking to "the church of the Thessalonians".

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: - 2 Thess 2:13

And here is Paul speaking to "the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" (1 Peter 1:1-2):

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. - 1 Peter 2:9-10

Ta-An
Aug 5th 2008, 05:27 PM
But you seem to be saying that the freewoman represents Jews of the flesh and, if so, I completely disagree.I say: Jews of the flesh and Jews of the heart (Spirit) are equally sharing in being G_d's chosen children.... Everybody is chosen.... and given the opportunity to respond to that call...

John146
Aug 5th 2008, 05:36 PM
The difference is the sealed are on the earth and the multitude is before the throne. One is here the other is there.

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb.

The multitude is in Heaven and those being sealed are still on the earth. Two different groups completely.Okay, going with that logic, where are the 144,000 located in this passage?

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. - Rev 14:3

This passage has the 144,000 before the throne just as the multitudes are. Where is the throne? Just as you said: in heaven. Notice that the throne is where the four beasts and the elders are. Also, it says the 144,000 "were redeemed from the earth". So, in this passage the 144,000 are located in heaven.

John146
Aug 5th 2008, 05:39 PM
I say: E Jews of the flesh and Jews of the heart (Spirit) are equally sharing in being G_d's chosen children....Where is the scripture that says this? Instead, I see this:

28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Do you agree with Paul's definition of a Jew? Being a Jew in the flesh doesn't gain anyone any favor with God.

18Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. - 1 Cor 7:18-19

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. - Galatians 3:6

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. - Gal 6:15

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. - Philippians 3:3

11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; - Colossians 3:11-12


Everybody is chosen.... and given the opportunity to respond to that call...What do you mean by that exactly?

16So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. - Matt 20:16

14For many are called, but few are chosen. - Matt 22:14

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 5th 2008, 06:10 PM
Okay, going with that logic, where are the 144,000 located in this passage?

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. - Rev 14:3

This passage has the 144,000 before the throne just as the multitudes are. Where is the throne? Just as you said: in heaven. Notice that the throne is where the four beasts and the elders are. Also, it says the 144,000 "were redeemed from the earth". So, in this passage the 144,000 are located in heaven.

Yes, what you say is true... In chapter 14 they are in the throne room but not in chapter 7. Chapter 7 is where I was quoting.

drew
Aug 5th 2008, 06:45 PM
I have not read all the posts, but I will put forward an assertion that I read from NT Wright: The Jews are "chosen" by God, "elected" by God, to act out the Christ pattern - to be the place where sin is accumulated, concentrated, and brought to full hideousness of expression.

Why on earth would God do such a thing? Precisely so that sin in its full flower of expression could then be transferred into the flesh of her faithful Messiah Jesus and there condemned.

I think that this is what Paul is talking about in the potter account in Romans 9 - an account commonly seen as addressing the pre-destination of individuals to ultimate glory or loss. Instead, I think that Paul is talking about Israel and how, like the potter with his pot, God has the right to harden Israel by using Torah to actually increase her sinfulness.

This is how Israel blesses the nations - by being the place where sin is localized, magnified, and rendered vulnerable to final condemnation in Jesus.

faithfulfriend
Aug 5th 2008, 07:36 PM
Are the Jews still Gods Chosen People? Or are Christians now God's Chosen People? Or both? I'm confused...scripture please :confused

The word of God plainly teaches that the literal Jews are no longer the chosen people of God. In this gospel period of time; "...there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:28-29) Saved people, those that are in Christ whether Jew or not are Abraham's seed. Abraham is "...the father of all them that believe." (Romans 4:11) We learn the definition of the true spiritual Israelite from Romans 2:28,29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." God looks on both literal Jew and Gentile with equal favor, and upon neither with special favor. For the literal Jew to receive any special privileges to inherit the promises of God, to be numbered among the chosen people of God, he too must be born again. Only those who have been born again are the chosen people of God, and only the born again make up the spiritual Israel, the Israel of God.

timmyb
Aug 5th 2008, 07:45 PM
Hey Timmy,

The only problem here is that geneology has been mixed up soo much over the years. I think the 12 tribes are referenced more in a metaphoric sense then they are in a geneological one. What they represent metaphorically I do not know. If you think about it, many people could claim lineage with Abraham/Jacob geneologically who don't even claim to be jews(probably moreso than those who claim to be jews in Israel right now) I think there was a genetic test done some time ago and it was found that many of the people in Israel right now had very little geneological relation to those "jews" who currently reside there.

Well, I am not one to discredit the Bible by reality... reality is that the Bible is 100% truth.... and no matter what man says could not be... you cannot use the situation that man is in to discredit the bible... that is heresy... the reality is that God knew all that was going to happen and yet he said what he said in the Bible... Romans 11:26 has yet to happen... and for that to happen there has to be a nation of Israel... with unfulfilled promises.... and in no way does man counteract that by any circumstance and to say so is blasphemy

John146
Aug 5th 2008, 07:54 PM
The word of God plainly teaches that the literal Jews are no longer the chosen people of God. In this gospel period of time; "...there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:28-29) Saved people, those that are in Christ whether Jew or not are Abraham's seed. Abraham is "...the father of all them that believe." (Romans 4:11) We learn the definition of the true spiritual Israelite from Romans 2:28,29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." God looks on both literal Jew and Gentile with equal favor, and upon neither with special favor. For the literal Jew to receive any special privileges to inherit the promises of God, to be numbered among the chosen people of God, he too must be born again. Only those who have been born again are the chosen people of God, and only the born again make up the spiritual Israel, the Israel of God.Well said. Good post.

timmyb
Aug 5th 2008, 11:18 PM
The word of God plainly teaches that the literal Jews are no longer the chosen people of God. In this gospel period of time; "...there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:28-29) Saved people, those that are in Christ whether Jew or not are Abraham's seed. Abraham is "...the father of all them that believe." (Romans 4:11) We learn the definition of the true spiritual Israelite from Romans 2:28,29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." God looks on both literal Jew and Gentile with equal favor, and upon neither with special favor. For the literal Jew to receive any special privileges to inherit the promises of God, to be numbered among the chosen people of God, he too must be born again. Only those who have been born again are the chosen people of God, and only the born again make up the spiritual Israel, the Israel of God.

the reality is that Jew and Gentile have the same problem, sin... because of that there is only one solution... while we are on the same team and we share in the same victory, Israel and the rest of the world play different roles in God's redemptive purpose... while Israel was called out first to be a kingdom of priests and the mirror of God's mercy throughout the nations which was ultimately shown THROUGH ISRAEL through Christ who is a man forever... The nation has rejected that calling and that role has been given to the Gentiles in order to provoke the Jews to jealousy because we are walking out everything that they were first commissioned to do... While Israel was called out at first to provoke the world to jealousy, the Gentiles now have that responsibility toward the nation of Israel concerning the redemption of the world... so while we wear the same jersey (that is, those who are saved by the blood of the lamb) we have different roles... and it's our job to recruit (introduce them to Jesus) those Jews and Gentiles who have not yet accepted Jesus... But until the time comes that all Israel will be saved, the Gentiles have that leadership role, then we will give the baton to the nation of Israel that they would fulfill the God given mandate given to them when they first came out of Egypt

Ta-An
Aug 6th 2008, 05:47 PM
What do you mean by that exactly?

Those verses states that G_D calls and chooses ... and man has no role to play.... yet this verse states that man has a role to play...Rom 10:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) That if thou shaltconfess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


I believe that "Pre-destination" and "Free-will" are 2 sides of the same coin :)

wpm
Aug 7th 2008, 01:04 AM
they are still chosen by God and he will establish his throne in Jerusalem forever... Gentiles have been grafted in ... while there is no difference, we all have the same problem... we play different roles in the body of Christ... we have a different position on the team and we are to encourage each other in those roles

Contrary to what you say, we (the elect) are the children of Abraham. All unbeliever (most Jews and Gentiles) are of their father the devil.

Galatians 3:7-9 explains, “they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen (or Gentiles) through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, (in Genesis 17:5) In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”


Verse 16 continues, “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds (plural), as of many; but as of one (single), and to thy seed, which is Christ.”

Christ is the fulfilment of the Abrahamic covenant and the great promises contained within it. Christ is the true seed of Abraham, not national Israel that rejects Christ and everything He represents.

Galatians 3:28-29 says, “there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: For ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

Either we are found in Christ, and are therefore heirs of God according to the promise, or else we belong to the devil and are damned. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile; all who believe in Him are one.

Paul