PDA

View Full Version : Discussion Rapture Theory



melpointy
Aug 3rd 2008, 08:38 PM
Sorry I wanted to post a poll but I couldnt figure out how. Just want to keep the answers sweet and simple.

What are your belief's on when the rapture of the church will occur.

1. Before the Great 7 Year Tribulation
2. During the & year Tribulation
3. After the Tribulation when Christ Returns
4. I dont believe in the Rapture.

Thanks.

My belief is before the tribulation and the right before the Antichrist is ruled to power.

vinsight4u8
Aug 3rd 2008, 08:55 PM
Sorry I wanted to post a poll but I couldnt figure out how. Just want to keep the answers sweet and simple.

What are your belief's on when the rapture of the church will occur.

1. Before the Great 7 Year Tribulation
2. During the & year Tribulation
3. After the Tribulation when Christ Returns
4. I dont believe in the Rapture.

Thanks.

My belief is before the tribulation and the right before the Antichrist is ruled to power.

3 = your third option fits with scripture.

DeafPosttrib
Aug 3rd 2008, 09:14 PM
#3.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

melpointy
Aug 3rd 2008, 10:05 PM
So you believe Christ will destroy the righteious with unrighteious. He told Abraham after Sodom and Gomoroh he would never do that again.

I still believe God will rapture is true believers before the great destruction starts on earth.

Why would a loving God let his own children go through destruction?

vinsight4u8
Aug 3rd 2008, 10:34 PM
So you believe Christ will destroy the righteious with unrighteious. He told Abraham after Sodom and Gomoroh he would never do that again.

I still believe God will rapture is true believers before the great destruction starts on earth.

Why would a loving God let his own children go through destruction?

Please look at just this for a bit.
Hebrews 9:28 and what is said by those of Rev. 19:1.
Next - consider what is said in 19:2.

Hebrews 9:28
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Rev. 19:1
"And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia, Salvation..."

__________________
Rev. 7:9
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude..."
7:10
"And cried with a loud voice, saying Salvation..."
14
"...These are they which came out of great tribulation..."
------------------

Rev. 19:2
"For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth...hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."
/the city of Mystery, Babylon has fallen
/she was done slaying the trib martyrs
/God has paid her back for their shed blood

19:7
"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come..."

/salvation is said
the great whore city can't corrupt the earth anymore
then the marriage comes

So how does all of this allow anywhere for Jesus to come back and get the church before the trib is over?

vinsight4u8
Aug 3rd 2008, 10:41 PM
So you believe Christ will destroy the righteious with unrighteious. He told Abraham after Sodom and Gomoroh he would never do that again.

I still believe God will rapture is true believers before the great destruction starts on earth.

Why would a loving God let his own children go through destruction?

Hey, also give Rev. 11:18 a look, for not till the 7th trumpet does get the message from the 24 elders that He can destroy.

HisLeast
Aug 3rd 2008, 11:01 PM
Why would a loving God let his own children go through destruction?

What happened to the first Christians?

calidog
Aug 3rd 2008, 11:08 PM
1. Before the Great 7 Year Tribulation

Clifton
Aug 3rd 2008, 11:27 PM
Sorry I wanted to post a poll but I couldnt figure out how. Just want to keep the answers sweet and simple.

What are your belief's on when the rapture of the church will occur.

1. Before the Great 7 Year Tribulation
2. During the & year Tribulation
3. After the Tribulation when Christ Returns
4. I dont believe in the Rapture.

Thanks.

My belief is before the tribulation and the right before the Antichrist is ruled to power.
Considering the context and whole of the Bible, the idioms, culture, language, nuances, themes, expressions, appointed seasons (festivals), names, and so on, from Genesis to Revelation, the Biblical-Hebrew Eschatology teaching and learning is The Natzal (or, "rapture", "harpazo", etc.) is #1.

Birkhot (Hebrew for "Blessings"),
Clifton.

Mark F
Aug 3rd 2008, 11:59 PM
Considering the context and whole of the Bible, the idioms, culture, language, nuances, themes, expressions, appointed seasons (festivals), names, and so on, from Genesis to Revelation, the Biblical-Hebrew Eschatology teaching and learning is The Natzal (or, "rapture", "harpazo", etc.) is #1.

Birkhot (Hebrew for "Blessings"),
Clifton.

I agree with Clifton wrote.

jeffweeder
Aug 4th 2008, 12:19 AM
Jesus said it was number 3.

He promised to recieve us.....when he comes again, and he said that his coming would be after the tribulation.

Before we can be recieved into the kingdom we must put on immortality,-- and we are raised the last day at the last trumpet.
We know that the living saints do not precede the dead, but all together we are caught up to meet him.
So this rules out a rapture to Christ, before the ressurection on the last day.



"There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
29 Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees;
30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near.
31 "So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.
32 "Truly I say to you, this generation[20][Or race ] will not pass away until all things take place.
33 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Heaven and earth passing away at the ressurection and the second coming places the GT before it.



23 "But take heed; behold, I have told you everything in advance.
24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect[15][Or chosen ones ] from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Literalist-Luke
Aug 4th 2008, 02:02 AM
So you believe Christ will destroy the righteious with unrighteious. He told Abraham after Sodom and Gomoroh he would never do that again.

I still believe God will rapture is true believers before the great destruction starts on earth.

Why would a loving God let his own children go through destruction?The Post-Tribulation Rapture will be after the Great Tribulation, but BEFORE the Day of the Lord. The saints will not endure one second of God's wrath. People who believe the post-trib Rapture has the Church enduring God's wrath do not understand the post-trib Rapture correctly. (And that goes for post-tribbers, too!)

jeffweeder
Aug 4th 2008, 09:33 AM
The Post-Tribulation Rapture will be after the Great Tribulation, but BEFORE the Day of the Lord

The day of the Lord is his 2nd coming like a theif , ---his descent from heaven with a shout and the trumpet of ressurection. Only then will the rapture occur as the dead in Christ will rise first---the last day.



People who believe the post-trib Rapture has the Church enduring God's wrath do not understand the post-trib Rapture correctly.

The day of the Lord comes like a theif.
We watch for the coming of the Lord and prepare , because when he comes we will be with him and be recieved by him.



12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east
13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
15 "]("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.") [/B]16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.


During the 6th bowl of wrath, Jesus still hasnt come like a theif to ressurect and rapture us.

The wrath is poured out during the GT, and they still do not repent of their sins.
We are to drag them from the fire if possible.


2pet 3
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.


1thess 5
For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape

David Taylor
Aug 4th 2008, 06:32 PM
The day of the Lord is his 2nd coming like a theif , ---his descent from heaven with a shout and the trumpet of ressurection. Only then will the rapture occur as the dead in Christ will rise first---the last day.


Yep, at least that is explicitly what the scriptures say.

All 5 of the New Testament examples that mention Jesus coming as a thief, place this as occuring at His Coming...and 3 of those passages place it explicitly on the Day of the Lord.

The Lord Comes as a theif After the Tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31, 43 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect...But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

The Lord Comes as a thief on The Day of the Lord
I Thess 4:15 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

The Lord Comes as a thief on The Day of the Lord
II Peter 3:4, 9-12 "Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? "

The Lord Comes as a thief on The Day of the Lord
Revelation 3:3, 16:14-15 "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee...that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

wpm
Aug 4th 2008, 06:55 PM
Yep, at least that is explicitly what the scriptures say.

All 5 of the New Testament examples that mention Jesus coming as a thief, place this as occuring at His Coming...and 3 of those passages place it explicitly on the Day of the Lord.

The Lord Comes as a theif After the Tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31, 43 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect...But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

The Lord Comes as a thief on The Day of the Lord
I Thess 4:15 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

The Lord Comes as a thief on The Day of the Lord
II Peter 3:4, 9-12 "Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? "

The Lord Comes as a thief on The Day of the Lord
Revelation 3:3, 16:14-15 "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee...that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."



I was just reading 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 this morning. You could link it to your list. It declares: “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (or the day of the Lord) is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.”

The “day of Christ” mentioned here in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 should actually have been interpreted day of the Lord, as is its normal rendering elsewhere in Scripture.

David L. White presents some interesting thoughts on this reading in his article My Shift to Covenant Theology and Amillennialism. He says, “There are some key points to notice in this passage. Paul begins by announcing his topic, ‘Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him...’ (v.1). Having announced his topic he goes on to say he does not want his readers to be alarmed that the ‘day of the Lord has already come’ (v.2). We have to ask, what does Paul mean when refers to ‘the day of the Lord?’ We must answer that ‘the day of the Lord’--as Paul is using the expression in this context--refers to ‘the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him’ already referred to in the previous verse. In other words, in verse 1 Paul refers to the second coming of Christ by viewing it from two vantage points, that of Christ coming and that of the church being gathered to Him. In v.2 Paul lumps this all together in the phrase ‘the day of the Lord’.”

Paul

John146
Aug 4th 2008, 07:03 PM
David L. White presents some interesting thoughts on this reading in his article My Shift to Covenant Theology and Amillennialism. He says, “There are some key points to notice in this passage. Paul begins by announcing his topic, ‘Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him...’ (v.1). Having announced his topic he goes on to say he does not want his readers to be alarmed that the ‘day of the Lord has already come’ (v.2). We have to ask, what does Paul mean when refers to ‘the day of the Lord?’ We must answer that ‘the day of the Lord’--as Paul is using the expression in this context--refers to ‘the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him’ already referred to in the previous verse. In other words, in verse 1 Paul refers to the second coming of Christ by viewing it from two vantage points, that of Christ coming and that of the church being gathered to Him. In v.2 Paul lumps this all together in the phrase ‘the day of the Lord’.”

PaulI have made that same point to pre-tribbers here several times. Despite the obvious direct connection Paul makes between "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together unto Him", pre-trib tries to say there are seven years between those events. :confused

It should be equally as obvious that Paul equates "the day of Christ/the Lord" with "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and..our gathering together unto him". Yet, premils try to say that the day of the Lord is a separate event from "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and..our gathering together unto him" or they try to say that the day of the Lord only begins at "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and..our gathering together unto him" but lasts for a thousand years. Again... :confused

sasaint
Aug 6th 2008, 06:34 PM
So you believe Christ will destroy the righteious with unrighteious. He told Abraham after Sodom and Gomoroh he would never do that again.

I still believe God will rapture is true believers before the great destruction starts on earth.

Why would a loving God let his own children go through destruction?

Don't you believe that God can protect His children in a multitude of ways? Is whisking us out of this world the only way that God has of keeping us from tribulation? He didn't whisk Noah out of here. The waters rose from below and fell from above, and the ark protected Noah in the midst of the deluge. Don't you think that God could provide His children with a spiritual "ark" to keep us from tribulation?

In John chapter 6, Jesus says 4 times that he will raise us up "on the last day."

John146
Aug 6th 2008, 07:38 PM
Don't you believe that God can protect His children in a multitude of ways? Is whisking us out of this world the only way that God has of keeping us from tribulation? He didn't whisk Noah out of here. The waters rose from below and fell from above, and the ark protected Noah in the midst of the deluge. Don't you think that God could provide His children with a spiritual "ark" to keep us from tribulation?

In John chapter 6, Jesus says 4 times that he will raise us up "on the last day."Absolutely. Has God somehow changed that He needs to take us off the earth in order to protect His people from tribulation despite never having had to do that before when He has protected His people? No, He hasn't. In fact, Jesus even prayed that God would keep us here!

John 17
15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

And, like you said, Jesus said He would raise us up on the last day. What days can follow the LAST day? Doesn't the phrase "the last day" imply there will be no more days following it? It does to me. Only eternity will follow the last day.

Bick
Aug 6th 2008, 08:13 PM
Sorry I wanted to post a poll but I couldnt figure out how. Just want to keep the answers sweet and simple.

What are your belief's on when the rapture of the church will occur.

1. Before the Great 7 Year Tribulation
2. During the & year Tribulation
3. After the Tribulation when Christ Returns
4. I dont believe in the Rapture.

Thanks.

My belief is before the tribulation and the right before the Antichrist is ruled to power.

MY COMMENTS: Before the 'day of the Lord' starts...i.e...before the 7 year tribulation.

You didn't ask 'why'.

The truth is not decided by popular votes. It is discovered by careful analysis of the Scriptures.

markinro
Aug 6th 2008, 08:35 PM
Sorry I wanted to post a poll but I couldnt figure out how. Just want to keep the answers sweet and simple.

What are your belief's on when the rapture of the church will occur.

1. Before the Great 7 Year Tribulation
2. During the & year Tribulation
3. After the Tribulation when Christ Returns
4. I dont believe in the Rapture.

Thanks.

My belief is before the tribulation and the right before the Antichrist is ruled to power.

3. Why not make this a poll ?

David Taylor
Aug 6th 2008, 09:37 PM
Mel,
I moved it to the Polls subforum, and turned it into a Poll for you.

You can only open Polls in the Polls-subforum.

bennie
Aug 6th 2008, 11:42 PM
So you believe Christ will destroy the righteious with unrighteious. He told Abraham after Sodom and Gomoroh he would never do that again.

I still believe God will rapture is true believers before the great destruction starts on earth.

Why would a loving God let his own children go through destruction?

hi,
read, Foxes book of martyrs. i will say they were all true believers. He will do it so that people can get revined
bennie

chal
Aug 7th 2008, 12:13 AM
What happened to the first Christians?

Amen. Destruction of the body is not the same as destruction of the soul. Our Lord didn't defeat death by escaping from it.

BadDog
Aug 7th 2008, 02:12 AM
Wait a minute... all these comments and only one other person other than me voted?!

sasaint
Aug 7th 2008, 05:17 PM
Wait a minute... all these comments and only one other person other than me voted?!

Actually I think there is a belief that is not reflected: the belief that the rapture will occur when Christ comes again, but that His coming does not occur after a period of tribulation. Some folks believe that the tribulation occurred in the 1st century, but Christ will come again on the last day. :)

BadDog
Aug 8th 2008, 04:37 PM
Actually I think there is a belief that is not reflected: the belief that the rapture will occur when Christ comes again, but that His coming does not occur after a period of tribulation. Some folks believe that the tribulation occurred in the 1st century, but Christ will come again on the last day. :)Right. I think the "I don't believe in the rapture" was meant to cover that. The view you're thinking of is probably the preterist view. I read a book on it by RC Sproul. He makes some good arguments in the 1st couple of chapters.

There is much to say in its favor. The main reason I oppose it is that it takes a not very literal view of prophecy--too allegorical for my taste... no literal rapture, no literal 7-yr. tribulation period, no literal millennium, no literal anti-christ, no literal return of Israel to her homeland (as occurred in 1948), no literal kingdom, no literal Israel - saying that the church has replaced Israel in God's economy, no literal abomination of desolations, etc. ...

BD

sasaint
Aug 9th 2008, 04:49 AM
Right. I think the "I don't believe in the rapture" was meant to cover that. The view you're thinking of is probably the preterist view. I read a book on it by RC Sproul. He makes some good arguments in the 1st couple of chapters.

There is much to say in its favor. The main reason I oppose it is that it takes a not very literal view of prophecy--too allegorical for my taste... no literal rapture, no literal 7-yr. tribulation period, no literal millennium, no literal anti-christ, no literal return of Israel to her homeland (as occurred in 1948), no literal kingdom, no literal Israel - saying that the church has replaced Israel in God's economy, no literal abomination of desolations, etc. ...

BD

Actually I am not necessarily espousing the view - but there is a view that DOES believe that Jesus will return on the last day and that the dead will rise first at that time and the living will be changed instantly - it just won't be after a period of terrible tribulation. It will be after a sort of golden millennial age. They definitely DO believe in a rapture. Isn't that classic post-millennialism?

melpointy
Aug 10th 2008, 09:51 AM
Don't you believe that God can protect His children in a multitude of ways? Is whisking us out of this world the only way that God has of keeping us from tribulation? He didn't whisk Noah out of here. The waters rose from below and fell from above, and the ark protected Noah in the midst of the deluge. Don't you think that God could provide His children with a spiritual "ark" to keep us from tribulation?

In John chapter 6, Jesus says 4 times that he will raise us up "on the last day."

Ask yourself this and foreveryone else that disagrees with me. How many of you have actually sat down with a Pastor (the one at the time was 75 but he is 80 and still kicking) anways and did a 2 month study on this all backed up by Christians in a Non-Denominational church. Maybe that makes a difference....I read the NKJV and KJV bible only as some of these newer ones are leading people into some fasle beliefs...IMO;)

I cant think of all the versus but I know a few in Math, and Daniel, Thesalions talks about jesus returning for his people (his born again children) they wont endure the wrath. The ones that will endure the wrath (but I still think God will protect those that get saved during the Antichrist reign. Read your bible..7yrs......1/2 way thru he breaks the peace treaty with Isreal (false anyway because he is satan) then christians that get saved after the falling away will be on the run because they have to refuse the Mark of the Beast in there hand or forhead or they wont be able to buy or sell anything!!!!! If you take the mark your damned forever it cant be undone you have put your trust in the FALSE MESSIAH THE ANTI CHRISH (WHich means false christ) there will also be the false prophet.

The two witnesses sent by God will pray and plead for people to turn from there wicked ways and BE SAVED they have the authority of God to do whatever it takes to preach the message to everyone who will listen. to those that threaten them God gave them power to attack them with fire i believe.(mentioned in revelation)

So yes the christians afterwords will be and I think in God's protection but if the antichrist has authority and you are caught they are beheaded for there faith because they refused to worship the BEAST ANTICHRIST FALSE MESSIAH IT GOES BY MANY NAMES--Mainly Satan time is short he know's it. I said no one will know the time nor the hour but something about birthpangs.........earthquakes, hunger, etc etc..will be like a woman in labor. But we still dont know when he will return that is why it mentions it in Matt: to tired to look up the verse blessed of those that are spared before the time of troubles something along that lines

I think the 144,000 jews that are marked our from the 12 tribes of Israel meaning they are all jewish. So we must also incude the born again believers (Gentiles) some will also choose JESUS over the Antichrist and some will be spared by the Antichrist. Some beheaded. All in the last book. You must read the original bible KJV or at least NKJV because these newer bibles I have been comparing twists words somewhat and take things out like hell...etc. JMO though.

After the Antichrist kills the two witnesses after there 32 month or 3.5yr is up they lay dead in the street for everyone to see. then in 3 days God will Rapture them up in heaven for all eyes to see.

I backtracked sorry but after the witnesses our killed, the peace treaty with Israel is broken, the antichrist will stand on the thrown "declare he is the one and only god" worship me and most will because he shows many miracles (thanks to satan). has a fatal head wound heeled before many unbelievers to prove he is the new messiah. (again help from false prophet, and satan)

After this 1/2 thru as you read thru the book of revelation you can see that Jesus will Return but with "HIS SAINTS this time" to settle the battle of Armaggeden the last horrific battle end of days.

Praise God then Jesus will set up his millenial 1000 year reign on earth. This happens right after armageden so why would we need to be raptured at the end???? No mention of rapture in Revolution besides the witnesses. This is what I was taught. Sorry I didnt post no scriptures but when my mind is tired i cant read.

I believe who is left after Christ takes care of Armageden and defeats the antichrist, and false prophet and they are instantly thrown in the lake of fire

Those Christains who remain down on earth when Jesus comes back will be the ones to start off the millenial reign by Jesus Himself LORD OF LORDS that includes
, 144,000 tribes of Israel, who are marked by God.

Wow sorry so long. God bless in Jesus precious name. We will long be gone before the antichrist is revealed. Eager for his return.:bounce:

I would trust the WORD OF GOD the BIBLE more then any book from anyone...many false preachers out there.

BadDog
Aug 11th 2008, 01:26 AM
Actually I am not necessarily espousing the view - but there is a view that DOES believe that Jesus will return on the last day and that the dead will rise first at that time and the living will be changed instantly - it just won't be after a period of terrible tribulation. It will be after a sort of golden millennial age. They definitely DO believe in a rapture. Isn't that classic post-millennialism?Thx. yes, as I understand it, the distinctive of post-millennialism is that it views Christ's return as occurring after, rather than before, the millennium. It is not so common these days as it has a very optimistic view of history - seeing a Christian golden age as being ushered in before Christ returns. It takes the 1000 yr. period as somewhat allegorical - representing a long time. But after WWI and WWI, it was dropped like a hot potato.

It also takes a somewhat allegorical view of prophecy.

BD

yaza
Aug 19th 2008, 03:31 AM
you didnt read in 2 thes 2:3 that the falling away would come first and the man of sin will be revealed before jesus comes for his people. when the man of sin is revealed god will send them a deluding influence so they will believe what is false. Ive read,my bible the seven years you refer to do not exist,daniel 9:24 gives the time line and what must be accomplished, you will find the christ fulfilled the last one when he entered behind the curtain and then sat down. the only 3.5 years left to be fulfilled is when the beast is given power over the saints. rev 13:5-8 im sure your pastor friend didn't mean to decieve you but he did.you should rely on the holy spirt to teach you not man.wish this were true and this doctrine puts all the people in danger of not recognizing him and being tricked into accepting the mark.please take another 2 months and study the scriptures alone with a clear mind and our only teacher gods spirit.remember jesus said even the elect could be decieved. i fear for your soul as this is a serious false doctrine started by a 14 year old girls utterance her name was Margeret McDonald Tim LaHaye gives her credit in his books,i have studied the secret rapture theory and dispensationalism until i knew it better than most, and my conclusion is that it is a lie from satan,and 90% of the people who believe it don't read the bible and only know certian scrpture of which they take out of context or go deep into the greek or hebrew to try to twist words to make them fit their theory. if i had to give my favorite anti-pre wrath verse it would be 2 thes 1:7-8 and to give relief to you who are affliand to us as well when the lord jesus will be revealed from heaven with his mighty angles in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not obey the gospel of our lord jesus.

again i refer you to 2 thes 2:3..................

holyrokker
Aug 23rd 2008, 04:37 AM
I don't believe in either the "rapture" or the "great tribulation"

faroutinmt
Sep 15th 2008, 04:17 PM
I believe that the great tribulation of Matthew 24 happened long ago when Jesus came in judgment upon Jerusalem in AD 70.

I believe that the final resurrection is yet to come at the end of this age.

Jehu10842
Sep 15th 2008, 05:14 PM
I don't believe in either the "rapture" or the "great tribulation"

X2.

The wicked will be taken first. Read the accounts in Matthew.

The verse in I Thes. says "...alive AND REMAIN...". Remain from what? The unsaved were already removed.

The issue being addressed by Paul was whether the Christians who have already died would go to heaven. Read the previous verses.

You need help to misunderstand this. Read the Book, not books about the Book. Start with Acts 17:11. Listen but verify. Ask God for wisdom and don't doubt (read James 1:5-7).

BadDog
Sep 20th 2008, 01:04 AM
I believe that the great tribulation of Matthew 24 happened long ago when Jesus came in judgment upon Jerusalem in AD 70.

I believe that the final resurrection is yet to come at the end of this age.Again, I think this is probably the preterist view.

BD

keck553
Jun 2nd 2011, 11:34 PM
I choose non-existant option #5. (I don't know).

The 'rapture' theory as postulated today is only 200 years old.

BroRog
Jun 3rd 2011, 06:32 AM
My Tribulation theory isn't a part of the pole. I believe the Tribulation began in 66AD when Titus brought his Roman armies to lay siege to Jerusalem in order to put down a Jewish uprising, which eventually led to the expulsion of Jews from Palestine. The Tribulation ended in 1948, when the Jews recaptured Jerusalem and reconstituted themselves as a nation again. So, since the Tribulation is over, I guess I would be considered Post-Trib, but for reasons other than what people might expect. :)

keck553
Jun 3rd 2011, 05:22 PM
My Tribulation theory isn't a part of the pole. I believe the Tribulation began in 66AD when Titus brought his Roman armies to lay siege to Jerusalem in order to put down a Jewish uprising, which eventually led to the expulsion of Jews from Palestine. The Tribulation ended in 1948, when the Jews recaptured Jerusalem and reconstituted themselves as a nation again. So, since the Tribulation is over, I guess I would be considered Post-Trib, but for reasons other than what people might expect. :)

I mostly agree with this assesment. With one exception. The Jews wer expelled from Israel. There is not such thing as "Palistine." It's a made up replacement word deployed by an outside occupying culture.

David Taylor
Jun 3rd 2011, 05:26 PM
I choose non-existant option #5. (I don't know).

The 'rapture' theory as postulated today is only 200 years old.

Only the pre-trib rapture theory is 200 years old. (Actually more like 175ish).

That Christ would return and gather all His faithful believers, living and dead to Himself at His return has always been taught vastly and thoroughly, throughout all of the 20 centuries since He walked the Earth.

keck553
Jun 3rd 2011, 06:28 PM
Only the pre-trib rapture theory is 200 years old. (Actually more like 175ish).

That Christ would return and gather all His faithful believers, living and dead to Himself at His return has always been taught vastly and thoroughly, throughout all of the 20 centuries since He walked the Earth.

Yes. Thank you for the correction and clarification.

BibleGirl02
Jun 8th 2011, 06:15 AM
I believe that the Rapture will occur before the 7 year tribulation begins. I could be wrong about that though.

vinsight4u8
Jun 10th 2011, 01:00 AM
There will be only one resurrection of the just.

It means the trib martyrs rise ahead of the rapture.

shepherdsword
Jun 10th 2011, 01:07 AM
Post tribber........

nzyr
Jun 10th 2011, 06:45 AM
My Tribulation theory isn't a part of the pole. I believe the Tribulation began in 66AD when Titus brought his Roman armies to lay siege to Jerusalem in order to put down a Jewish uprising, which eventually led to the expulsion of Jews from Palestine. The Tribulation ended in 1948, when the Jews recaptured Jerusalem and reconstituted themselves as a nation again. So, since the Tribulation is over, I guess I would be considered Post-Trib, but for reasons other than what people might expect. :)

The tribulation isn't over yet. It hasn't even begun yet. It will probably be the worst thing the world has ever seen. Even worse than world war II. And we all know how bad that was.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (Matthew 21:22)

TrustGzus
Jun 10th 2011, 12:57 PM
Can't vote. My position isn't represented on the poll.

BroRog
Jun 10th 2011, 04:25 PM
The tribulation isn't over yet. It hasn't even begun yet. It will probably be the worst thing the world has ever seen. Even worse than world war II. And we all know how bad that was.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (Matthew 21:22)

The Great Tribulation, was a Jewish tribulation, and it WAS the greatest tribulation they ever saw when one considers the hundreds of years of exile, the pogroms and the holocaust. Had the Jews remained in exile among the nations much longer (unless those days be shortened) they would have been wiped out as a race (no flesh would have been saved.)

Jesus said that the tribulation would begin when armies would surround Jerusalem, kill some of them and take the rest of the Jews captive into all the nations. This took place during the Jewish wars of AD 66-70 and also after the Bar Kokhba revolt in AD 132–136, when the Romans finally depopulated the area and renamed the region "Palestine". Jesus said that the tribulation wouldn't end until just before his return.

PneumaPsucheSoma
Jun 10th 2011, 08:57 PM
Partial Preterist / Amillennial / Post-Millennial. (Ultra-Anti-Dispensational)

The "rapture" is the Second Advent.

Diggindeeper
Jun 10th 2011, 09:48 PM
Partial Preterist / Amillennial / Post-Millennial. (Ultra-Anti-Dispensational)

The "rapture" is the Second Advent.

Yes, according to scripture, without adding assumption or denominational leanings.
I just prefer the term 'His second coming.' Stages, a 'secret' taking away,etc., are never even hinted at in scripture.

shepherdsword
Jun 10th 2011, 10:11 PM
I don't see two different second comings

Servant89
Jun 10th 2011, 10:58 PM
Yep, at least that is explicitly what the scriptures say.

All 5 of the New Testament examples that mention Jesus coming as a thief, place this as occuring at His Coming...and 3 of those passages place it explicitly on the Day of the Lord.

The Lord Comes as a theif After the Tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31, 43 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect...But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

The Lord Comes as a thief on The Day of the Lord
I Thess 4:15 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

The Lord Comes as a thief on The Day of the Lord
II Peter 3:4, 9-12 "Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? "

The Lord Comes as a thief on The Day of the Lord
Revelation 3:3, 16:14-15 "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee...that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."



There is another very important passage in the Old Testament that verifies that every time as a thief is mentioned, it refers to the day AFTER the great tribulation.... at the 6th seal.

1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Shalom

Servant89
Jun 11th 2011, 01:07 PM
The post tribulation (pre-wrath?) rapture position is seen in the following Scriptures:

1. Matthew 24:29 states that immediately AFTER the great tribulation of Mat 24:21, the 6th seal will be opened (Mat 24:29-31) and then Jesus will come down to resurrect his people that were in heaven and rapture those that will be on earth (Mar 13:27). That means, that when the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17), the GT is over.
2. Rev 6:12-17 states the day of wrath arrives after the 6th seal. Since the great tribulation ends at the 6th seal; that means the day of wrath arrives AFTER the great tribulation.
3. The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 is called “the day of the Lord” three verses later (1Th 5:2). But the Bible says the day of the Lord will not come until the 6th seal is open (Acts 2:20, Joel 2:31).
4. The rapture (the day of the Lord) will take place on the day that God’s wrath is poured on earth (2 Thes 1:6-8; Isa 13:9-13; Psalm 18:7-19; Rev 14:13-20).
5. The second coming will be like the day of Lot, that the SAME DAY that Lot was taken away by angels, on THE SAME DAY fire and brimstone rained on this world (Luke 17:29-30; Gen 19:22).
6. The Church will rest when we get raptured; and that comes after the GT (2Th 1:6-8) on the day that Jesus comes in flaming fire to punish this world.
7. The Bible states the day of wrath arrives at the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:18).
8. The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 states that there will be no rapture until FIRST there is a resurrection from the dead. Job 14:12 states there will be no resurrection from the dead until the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17). Therefore, there cannot be any rapture until the 6th seal is open.
9. The Bible mentions the first resurrection (of the righteous) after the seals, trumpets and vials of Revelation… in Rev 20:1-5.
10. The Bible states that Jesus will resurrect his elect (John 6:39,40,44) on the last day. The last day is when time runs out, when time is no more, and that day is clearly stated to arrive at the 7th trumpet (Rev 10:6-7). Ephesians 1:10 states that the second coming (with resurrection and rapture) will occur at the fullness of times (another term for the last day, when there is time no more).
11. According to 1Cor 15:52, the rapture will take place at the last trumpet (not before the first trumpet). The word “last” implies there will be some before and none after. The last trumpet in the Bible is the 7th trumpet.
12. The Bible states in Acts 3:21 that Jesus must remain in heaven (will not come down to rapture us) until the time of restitution of all things. Webster dictionary defines “restitution” as “something restored back to its original owner”. The 7th trumpet is also the time when all the kingdoms of this world will be restored back to their rightful owner (Jesus Christ, Rev 11:15).
13. 2Thes 2:1-3 states the rapture (our gathering together with Him) will not take place until the antichrist is revealed first (not the other way around).
14. The day that comes as a thief in the night is after the GT, after the 6th seal, after all the trumpets and vials (see Rev 3:3: Rev 16:14-15; 2Pe 3:4,9-12; Joel 2:1-11; 1Th 4:16- 5:2; Mat 24:21,29-31,43). It is definitively not a day before the end of the GT. Every single time the term as a thief is mentioned concerning the 2nd coming, it is AFTER the great tribulation.
15. The rapture should not be a day that takes us by surprise. It should not come as a thief in the night for his elect (1Th 5:2; Rev 3:3; 1Cor 2:9-10). We are not supposed to be in darkness because the deep secrets of God the Father have been made available to us the Church through the Spirit.
16. We should seek first the kingdom of God (Mat 6:33). If we do that, everything else will be added unto us. The time of the kingdom of God is the Great Tribulation (Rev 12:10). The Bible says we must go through much tribulation before entering in the Kingdom of God (Acts 14:22). It also says we are appointed to go through tribulation (1Th 3:3-4). The cross brings power (1Cor 1:18 ). I am exceedingly joyful in tribulation (2Cor 7:4). The disciples were happy to be beaten for the name of Jesus (Acts 5:40-42). If they beat Jesus and crucified him, what would they do to the Church? (See Luk 23:31). The Bible says that in this world we shall have tribulation (John 16:33).
17. The Bible calls it the day of Christ when the bride of Jesus (the Church) is presented to him blameless and spotless (1Th 3:13; 1Cor 1:7-8; Phi 1:6,10; Phi 2:15-16; 2Th 2:1-3; 2Cor 1:14; 1Th 2:19; 1Th 5:23). But 2Th 2:1-3 states that day of Christ will not come until FIRST, there be a falling away and the man of sin be revealed. The falling away has to happen first, then the Antichrist has to be revealed, and then, after the antichrist is revealed, then comes our gathering together with him (the rapture), the day of Christ.
18. In the parables of Matthew 13, there is a prophetic order showing the history of the Church from beginning to end. It starts with the sower and it ends at the second coming (harvest time). Israel represents the treasure that was hidden and then found in 1948 (Exo 19:5; Psalm 135:4). After that one comes the pearl (a pearl is created when a grain of sand irritates the oyster and that speaks of tribulation). After the pearl, comes the net, the end of the world.
19. The Church is refined, made blames and spotless, perfect, through affliction and tribulation, just like Jesus (Heb 2:10; Daniel 11:35; Isa 48:10; 1Pet 4:1; 1Pet 5:10).
20. The greatest revival in history will take place during the GT (Rev 7:14). It does not make sense to see that happen when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way.
21. The specialty of the HS is to comfort God’s people that are going through tribulation (2Cor 1:4). It does not make sense for God to take the Comforter out of the way, to leave and forsake his people (those that died for him during the GT as shown in Rev 7:14) when we need him the most.
22. The blessed hope that Christians look for in Titus 2:13 is eternal life (Tit 1:2; Tit 3:7) which will come after the GT (we are still mortals, eternal life will arrive in the world to come, Mat 10:30).
23. Christians do not look for a rapture before the GT, we look for the coming of the Lord at the end of the GT (2Pet 3:12).
24. The Bible says that God can not lie. But it just so happens, that God said that, when He declared that the blessed hope is eternal life (Tit 1:2).
25. When Jesus comes back in the clouds for us (the Church), the Bible says that every eye shall see him (Rev 1:7).
26. The reason why God send plagues to Egypt was to show he is so powerful, that he can pour plagues on the wicked while sparing his elect, without having to remove his elect from the planet (Exo 11:7). Jesus is against a doctrine that states that God has to remove his elect to protect his people from his own plagues (John 17:15). We need to pray like Jesus.
27. When God promised to KEEP us FROM the hour of temptation (Rev 3:10; the GT), he did not mean removing us from the planet (John 17:15).
28. Parallels: 7th seal = 7th trumpet = 7th vial (they all come with thunders, lightning, voices, a great earthquake and great hail which are the signs of God coming down to earth as shown in Exo 19:16-19).
29. Parallels 6th seal happens at the end of the 6th trumpet = 6th vial. Note: the 6th trumpet and the 6th vial deal with the Euphrates river and Armageddon, which ends at the 6th seal (Rev 9:13-19; Rev 16:12-16). See also Zep 3:8; Zec 12:3-4, and Luke 21:20-25. It is in the midst of the 6th vial that Jesus said that he will come as a thief (Rev 16:15).
30. The Bible says that the 5th seal is almost at the end of the GT (Rev 6:9-11).
31. The Bible is blatantly clear when it states that the Jews are part of the one body of Christ, the Church (1Cor 12:13; Gal 3:28; Eph 2:14-19; Eph 3:4-6; Col 3:11; 1Cor 10:1-4; Act 13:26; Rom 1:16; Rom 3:1-9,24-30; Rom 4:16; Rom chapters 9,10 & 11; Rom 12:1-5). Concerning the truth that the Jews are part of the church, the Bible says: “Let God be true and everyman a liar” (Rom 3:1-4).
32. Everywhere in Scriptures that God shows the rapture, it is shown after the 6th seal or at the day of wrath (Psalm 18; Isa 13; 1Th 3:13; 1Cor 15:52; 2Th 1:6-8; Mat 24:21-31; Rev 14:14-15)

What you will not find in Scriptures… There are no verses that state:

1. That Daniel’s 70th week is what triggers God’s wrath.
2. That the first 5 seals or the first 6 trumpets are part of God’s wrath.
3. That there will be an invisible coming of Jesus Christ.
4. That Abraham, Jacob, David, Moses, Joshua and Noah are not part of the body of Christ (the Church).
5. That the Holy Spirit is the one that is the restrainer of 2The 2:1-12.
6. That there is a rapture before the great tribulation or before the first seal.
7. That there will be a rapture before the 6th seal or before the 7th trumpet.
8. That all the seals, trumpets and vials will occur within a period of 7 years.
9. That God is more interested in comforting the flesh than building the character of the Church.

Shalom

Diggindeeper
Jun 11th 2011, 07:36 PM
I think where many are confused is in the words 'the wrath of God' and they assume that means a time of 'great tribulation'.

But, really close reading and scrutinity shows that one of those times is NOT the wrath of God, but the wrath of satan! After all, he knows his time is short!

The Bible is quite clear on what the wrath of God consists of..........

thedee
Jun 13th 2011, 04:10 AM
I think where many are confused is in the words 'the wrath of God' and they assume that means a time of 'great tribulation'.

But, really close reading and scrutinity shows that one of those times is NOT the wrath of God, but the wrath of satan! After all, he knows his time is short!

The Bible is quite clear on what the wrath of God consists of..........

Satan's wrath begins in the middle (he has a short time) of the 70th week of Danial (7 year tribulation). Once he steps foot in the temple in the midst (Daniel 9:27) we have about 3.5 years left (Daniel 12:11). Gods wrath I believe to be the entire 7 year period (Rev 6:16,17; 11:18; 14:10; 14:19; 15:1; 15:7; 16:1; 16:19; 19:15)

Diggindeeper
Jun 13th 2011, 09:58 AM
...but, WHAT is involved in the wrath of God?
What happens during that time?

Servant89
Jun 13th 2011, 12:54 PM
Satan's wrath begins in the middle (he has a short time) of the 70th week of Danial (7 year tribulation). Once he steps foot in the temple in the midst (Daniel 9:27) we have about 3.5 years left (Daniel 12:11). Gods wrath I believe to be the entire 7 year period (Rev 6:16,17; 11:18; 14:10; 14:19; 15:1; 15:7; 16:1; 16:19; 19:15)

When the six seal opens the wrath arrives, yes, but also, according to mat 24... The great tribulation is over.

Peace

vinsight4u8
Jun 14th 2011, 12:38 AM
The 7th trumpet sounds bringing many events into action, and one of those is the rewarding of the saints. Luke 14:14 shows that reward / recompense time is resurrection of the just time.
The church leaves the earth/all saints at the 7th trumpet. This trumpet is allowing the final plague of the seven angels that they left the temple with in Rev. 15:6. See how at the end of Rev. 15 it takes all seven plagues to end before men can enter the temple?

The plagus of he vials are for after the 7th seal is opened, but they are not part of the 7th seal.
The vials are the full measure plagues that are written in the book that John ate in chapter 10.
Rev. 22 shows there are plagues written that can be added to a person, and they are all in one book.
If you guys are willing to look at how the middle part of Rev has been made into some hidden sections -I will post some more later. The last chapters of Rev. 16-22 flow smoothly as to how John was given them, but the middle part of Rev. was set for the end, and has been made obscure.

For instance, Rev. 15:5 shows the tabernacle part was not yet opened to John - the ark area,the sanctuary.
Yet Rev. 11:19 has him seeing the ark in the temple of God.

Thus, Rev. 11:19a came after Rev. 15:5.
The very first time that John sees the temple in heaven opened is in Rev. 15:5 , yet he could still not look inside of the tabernacle area.

vinsight4u8
Jun 14th 2011, 02:11 AM
Here's another thing that shows Rev. is not laid out in its correct order as to how things unfolded to John.

Rev. 11:15
KJV
"And the seventh angel sounded...The kingdoms of this world are become...of our Lord..."


12:10
"...Now is come salvation...and the kingdom of God..."
"...they loved not their lives unto the death."
v11
v12
"Woe to the inhabiters of the earth, and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you..."

What? Didn't the 7th trumpet in Rev. 11 already start the kingdoms of the world as God's?
No - Revelation has been jumbled.

This is why Rev. 8:2 shows angels that are returning back into John's view.

"the seven angels"

So where does their grand entrance happen in Rev. ?

15:1
KJV
And I saw another sign in heaven...seven angels.."

After that part- now they will become "the seven angels".

15:6
"And the seven angels came out of the temple..."

Rev.8:2 still can't happen yet.
Think about this >
How could seven trumpets bring plagues in Rev. 8? Do you see any plagues being handed to the seven angels in chapter 8? no The seven angels had to be in chapter 15 first to even have any plagues for the sounding of the seven trumpets time.

vinsight4u8
Jun 14th 2011, 02:24 AM
...but, WHAT is involved in the wrath of God?
What happens during that time?

Satan's short time of his wrath ends by the 7th trumpet. The wrath of God will involve a great earthquake that happens the same hour as when the two witnesses rise at the resurrection of the just. The earthquake is the third woe. After the resurrection/rapture of the saints, they go to heaven with Jesus. There will be a time of silence. See Isaiah 18 as to God will consider in His dwellingplace after the harvest. After this time of silence, the seven trumpets blew in the past angels will show up for the task of pouring out the vials twice each. The vials coming in full strength amounts will be what Rev. 22 refers to as plagues that can be added to you. These plagues are messages that John received because he ate a little book in Rev. 10 and was to prophesy again /more.

Rev. 22:18
KJV
"...shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book." Rev. 10:8
"...the little book, which is open..."

vinsight4u8
Jun 14th 2011, 04:24 AM
Rev. 8:5
KJV "And the angel took the censer...and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."

<This is the next plague time being set up. It will last till the time of the earthquake part comes.>
v6 "And the seven angels... prepared themselves to sound."

So knowng that - what comes smoothly after Rev. 11:9b?
"...and there were lightnings, and voices, and thnderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

Easy>>> the next set of plagues -this one ends with a time of great hail.
<the vials of God's wrath>

Rev. 16:21
KJV "And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven..."

1of7000
Jun 14th 2011, 06:30 AM
He comes for His saints before the tribulation, possibly to do the bema thing. He comes with His saints after the tribulation to kick and take names.

Servant89
Jun 14th 2011, 11:21 AM
He comes for His saints before the tribulation, possibly to do the bema thing. He comes with His saints after the tribulation to kick and take names.

Why does he come for his saints before the tribulation? Can you think of 3 reasons?

And can you show us a verse that states that?

Thanks...

vinsight4u8
Jun 14th 2011, 11:38 AM
He comes for His saints before the tribulation, possibly to do the bema thing. He comes with His saints after the tribulation to kick and take names.

He comes with His changed to righteusness saints of Rev. 19 for the battle of Armageddon.

Earlier, at the 7th trumpet, is when He brought the sleeping saints from heaven and resurrected them -and all saints put on righteousness clothes //immortality.

1of7000
Jun 14th 2011, 03:50 PM
i won't spoon feed, here is the direction i took with this study.

understanding the time line involves the study of two greek words parousia and apokalupsis.

the first deals with the gathering together when we meet Christ in the air.

the second deals with Christ coming to clean up the earth.

good hunting

Amos_with_goats
Jun 14th 2011, 04:28 PM
It is good to resist being spoon fed by men. :thumbsup:




i won't spoon feed, here is the direction i took with this study.

understanding the time line involves the study of two greek words parousia and apokalupsis.

the first deals with the gathering together when we meet Christ in the air.

the second deals with Christ coming to clean up the earth.

good hunting

An excellent point, and one that completely undermines the idea that the Lord's return for the Church would take place prior to the tribulation.

Parousia (used in 1 Thes 4); is also "as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the Parousia of the Son of Man be" (Matt. 24:27). Taking your point, completely removes the idea of multiple second comings (or a 2nd and 3rd as some teach).

Here is a link to an article (http://www.theologue.org/The2ComingWords-Brown.htm) that discusses this at lenght;

The Coming of the Lord – Parousia, Epiphaneia, Apokalupsis (http://www.theologue.org/The2ComingWords-Brown.htm)


The Lord is able to preserve His people... in the midst of whatever comes.

Just as in Egypt, just as in the Flood, Just He always has and always will. :pp

1of7000
Jun 15th 2011, 06:34 AM
i read the article at the end of the link and it was interesting. i see where the author equates resurrection with gathering together (rapture) the two are different since the rapture will have live and dead folks involved and the resurrection(s) will involve only dead.

i see also the author does not recognize the church of the body as different from the church of the bride. this will also cause confusion.

mattlad22
Jun 15th 2011, 06:47 AM
i read the article at the end of the link and it was interesting. i see where the author equates resurrection with gathering together (rapture) the two are different since the rapture will have live and dead folks involved and the resurrection(s) will involve only dead.

i see also the author does not recognize the church of the body as different from the church of the bride. this will also cause confusion.

All must die, every man must physically die, even the saints at Christ coming, thats the changing in the twinkling of an eye, for those who are physically alive at this time they wont be dead long s a twinkling of an eye is quite fast, but they will be changed.

"For as in Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive"

None can be greater than thier Master and the Master physically died.

1of7000
Jun 15th 2011, 07:05 AM
All must die, every man must physically die, even the saints at Christ coming, thats the changing in the twinkling of an eye, for those who are physically alive at this time they wont be dead long s a twinkling of an eye is quite fast, but they will be changed.

"For as in Adam all die, in Christ all are made alive"

None can be greater than their Master and the Master physically died.

yeah like that,

"greater works shall ye do"

and paul said "then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds"
changed is not dying it is changing. you will go from breath life to spirit life no dying involved since death was conquered by Christ.

mattlad22
Jun 15th 2011, 12:28 PM
yeah like that,

"greater works shall ye do"

and paul said "then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds"
changed is not dying it is changing. you will go from breath life to spirit life no dying involved since death was conquered by Christ.

It very much is the passing of the physical body.

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption."

"For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality"

Did the Lord not die to be raised?

1of7000
Jun 15th 2011, 01:24 PM
It very much is the passing of the physical body.

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption."

"For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality"

Did the Lord not die to be raised?

looks to me like you are shaving square pegs to fit in round holes, good luck with that.

vinsight4u8
Jun 15th 2011, 02:05 PM
Death came upon all men because of Adam.
"For as in Adam all die..." 1 Cor. 15:22
"...We shall not all sleep..." 15:51
"...Death is swallowed up in victory." v54
"....giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." v57

Anyone that dies after the last trumpet /7th trumpet sounds will never have victory, as it is swallowed up at the last trumpet.

Rev. 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded..."
v 18 "...reward...thy servants...the saints..."

"...shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." Luke 14:14

"And shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life..." John 5:29

"For the LORD himself shall descend from heaven...and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

mattlad22
Jun 16th 2011, 01:09 AM
looks to me like you are shaving square pegs to fit in round holes, good luck with that.

Ah ic, doesnt seem that maybe your taking round pegs out of thier round holes? couldnt possibly be a possibility?

Read the full verses again, if flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God and we are all changed, what is that changing? Did Christ not die to be raised?

Amos_with_goats
Jun 16th 2011, 03:28 PM
i read the article at the end of the link and it was interesting. i see where the author equates resurrection with gathering together (rapture) the two are different since the rapture will have live and dead folks involved and the resurrection(s) will involve only dead.

i see also the author does not recognize the church of the body as different from the church of the bride. this will also cause confusion.

Maybe you could list the scriptures that present this as a problem... what are you looking at to see that the Church and the Bride are different?

There are only ever two groups.. the sheep and the goats. Not sure what teacher would bring out some other group... but there are only two. Either you are 'IN' or you are 'OUT'. :)

BroRog
Jun 16th 2011, 04:29 PM
Maybe you could list the scriptures that present this as a problem... what are you looking at to see that the Church and the Bride are different?

There are only ever two groups.. the sheep and the goats. Not sure what teacher would bring out some other group... but there are only two. Either you are 'IN' or you are 'OUT'. :)I've often wondered if the church and the bride are different groups or if one is a subset of the other. The "bride" analogy is tricky. For instance, consider this verse from Revelation 19:7-9

7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready." 8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright [and] clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 Then he ^said to me, "Write, `Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.' "

If the church is the bride, who are the attendees?

Again, in the parable of the ten virgins, if Jesus is the bridegroom and the church is the bride, who are the virgins?

I don't know. Perhaps it's possible to push these analogies too far.

mattlad22
Jun 16th 2011, 05:28 PM
I've often wondered if the church and the bride are different groups or if one is a subset of the other. The "bride" analogy is tricky. For instance, consider this verse from Revelation 19:7-9

7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready." 8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright [and] clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 Then he ^said to me, "Write, `Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.' "

If the church is the bride, who are the attendees?

Again, in the parable of the ten virgins, if Jesus is the bridegroom and the church is the bride, who are the virgins?

I don't know. Perhaps it's possible to push these analogies too far.

The parable of the ten virgins is about those who hear the word of the Lord and do it and those who do and dont follow Him.

Its a warning, be ready, follow me for you do not know when I will come, prepare yourselves and watch, for when I come if you are not made ready for Me you shall not entire, and their shall be much sorrow and gnashing of teeth.

Its clear the 5 virgins who were not ready for the Lord thought they knew Him, its clear He claims "Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you"

Its the same warning of the parable of the talents, the servant who dug in the ground and hid the lords money instead of using what the lord gave him for gain to the kingdom is one of the 5 virgins who fell asleep and all his oil ran out of his lamp.

Both parables are a warning and are the exact same in meaning, though you hear Me do you follow Me? Are you prepared? Be ready, use what i give you to further the kingdom.

As far as Rev 19:7-9 goes the bride is those who are blessed for attending the marriage supper of the Lamb, for they will live and be given incorruption, be made immortal from thier mortality through thier Husband.

Once the marriage takes place, the body is completed for the Head and the rest of the body are gathered together in completeness and are then visualized as a husband.

Why do i say that? How do we go from being the bride to called a husband?

"Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband" Rev 21

John 14:3
1 (http://bible.cc/john/14-1.htm)“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 (http://bible.cc/john/14-2.htm)“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 (http://bible.cc/john/14-3.htm)“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 (http://bible.cc/john/14-4.htm)“And you know the way where I am going.” 5 (http://bible.cc/john/14-5.htm)Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?” 6 (http://bible.cc/john/14-6.htm)Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me

John146
Jun 16th 2011, 05:49 PM
Maybe you could list the scriptures that present this as a problem... what are you looking at to see that the Church and the Bride are different?

There are only ever two groups.. the sheep and the goats. Not sure what teacher would bring out some other group... but there are only two. Either you are 'IN' or you are 'OUT'. :)Exactly. Jesus repeatedly spoke of people being in one of two groups. Wheat and tares. Sheep and goats. Wise and foolish. Righteous and wicked. Good and bad. And so on. Either someone is for Him or against Him. There's no in between.

Matt 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

John146
Jun 16th 2011, 05:52 PM
I've often wondered if the church and the bride are different groups or if one is a subset of the other. The "bride" analogy is tricky. For instance, consider this verse from Revelation 19:7-9

7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready." 8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright [and] clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 Then he ^said to me, "Write, `Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.' "

If the church is the bride, who are the attendees? The bride. Once someone accepts the invitation to join the church by way of putting their faith in Christ then a personal relationship is formed between them and Christ and they become part of His bride. The bride is the church.


Again, in the parable of the ten virgins, if Jesus is the bridegroom and the church is the bride, who are the virgins? That parable describes the bridegroom as coming for someone or something. Who or what? Wouldn't that be His bride that He's coming for? The wise virgins are the bride/church. Or at least the part of the church that is alive when He returns as the parable gives the impression that it's speaking of people who are still alive and waiting for the bridegroom to return.

1of7000
Jun 17th 2011, 06:28 AM
[QUOTE=BroRog;2700997]I've often wondered if the church and the bride are different groups or if one is a subset of the other. The "bride" analogy is tricky.



the Church of the Body is the New Covenant church, the Church of the Bride is of the old testament. the true significance of this difference will not be realized until the telos when we all live happily ever after

to lay out the entire logic and teaching is beyond this space and my typing skills allow. the foundation of most of my study starts with E.W. Bullingers "How to enjoy the Bible" it sets forth a methodical and meticulous technique for biblical study. I see some of you use some of what he teaches but you need to use all for a scientific method of study that will enlighten your minds.

BroRog
Jun 17th 2011, 06:56 PM
[QUOTE=BroRog;2700997]I've often wondered if the church and the bride are different groups or if one is a subset of the other. The "bride" analogy is tricky.



the Church of the Body is the New Covenant church, the Church of the Bride is of the old testament. the true significance of this difference will not be realized until the telos when we all live happily ever after

to lay out the entire logic and teaching is beyond this space and my typing skills allow. the foundation of most of my study starts with E.W. Bullingers "How to enjoy the Bible" it sets forth a methodical and meticulous technique for biblical study. I see some of you use some of what he teaches but you need to use all for a scientific method of study that will enlighten your minds.I don't know about this, but listing a couple of key verses would be helpful, possibly.

1of7000
Sep 19th 2011, 01:15 AM
the answer is not a one verse wonder. the "bride" references occur when Christ is present on earth, Gospels and Revelation. The "body" references occur after Pentecost and when Christ is seated at the right hand of The Father, in the epistles addressed to the "saints", I Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 5 in particular.
There are references to marriage but no references to a bride. This made a lot more sense to me after i had studied the administrations and how God dealt with us in sundry times and diverse manners. i have heard some refer to this as a study of "ultra dispensationalism" which seems rather complicated, non biblical name to me.

Today we live in the Age of Grace, our privileges and power far exceed what was available to the Old Testament believers because of the Perfect Sacrifice and His Resurrection. i pray someday i can believe it.

glad4mercy
Sep 19th 2011, 02:17 AM
I don't believe in either the "rapture" or the "great tribulation"

The word rapture is taken from the latin word for caught up. The greek word is "harpizo" which is found in 1 Thessalonians 4;17...

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The greek word for "caught up" is "harpizo". Rapere is the latin form of the same word. That is where we get the word rapture. So yes the Bible does teach the rapture. There is just disagreement on the timing of the rapture.

I prefer to call it the "harpizo", as that is the Greek word and the NT was originally written in Greek.

John 8:32
Sep 19th 2011, 01:14 PM
It is good to resist being spoon fed by men. :thumbsup:





An excellent point, and one that completely undermines the idea that the Lord's return for the Church would take place prior to the tribulation.

Parousia (used in 1 Thes 4); is also "as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the Parousia of the Son of Man be" (Matt. 24:27). Taking your point, completely removes the idea of multiple second comings (or a 2nd and 3rd as some teach).

Here is a link to an article (http://www.theologue.org/The2ComingWords-Brown.htm) that discusses this at lenght;

The Coming of the Lord – Parousia, Epiphaneia, Apokalupsis (http://www.theologue.org/The2ComingWords-Brown.htm)


The Lord is able to preserve His people... in the midst of whatever comes.

Just as in Egypt, just as in the Flood, Just He always has and always will. :pp

Good point about parousia, it does not men a "secret rapture". Second point about God preserving His people...

Psa 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
Psa 91:2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Psa 91:3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
Psa 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
Psa 91:5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
Psa 91:6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
Psa 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
Psa 91:8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
Psa 91:9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
Psa 91:10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
Psa 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
Psa 91:12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Psa 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
Psa 91:14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
Psa 91:15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
Psa 91:16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

Isa 33:7 Behold, their valiant ones shall cry without: the ambassadors of peace shall weep bitterly.
Isa 33:8 The highways lie waste, the wayfaring man ceaseth: he hath broken the covenant, he hath despised the cities, he regardeth no man.
Isa 33:9 The earth mourneth and languisheth: Lebanon is ashamed and hewn down: Sharon is like a wilderness; and Bashan and Carmel shake off their fruits.
Isa 33:10 Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.

When is this time? This is the end time.

Isa 33:11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
Isa 33:12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
Isa 33:13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting (insert the word nuclear here) burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks (Fortress of Rocks-a craggy rock): bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty (the return of Christ): they shall behold the land that is very far off.
Isa 33:18 Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is he that counted the towers? (military planners)
Isa 33:19 Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.

Describing a people in a Place of Safety, not a rapture.

Diggindeeper
Sep 19th 2011, 08:52 PM
There is one thing I am pretty sure about...the poll at the top of the page was taken back in 2008. My guess is that it would have completely different poll results if done today.

How about if someone redoes the poll, say in a separate post, and link to it here. So people that are here today could get in on the poll results...because so many were not even here when that poll was taken!

John146
Sep 19th 2011, 10:26 PM
There is one thing I am pretty sure about...the poll at the top of the page was taken back in 2008. My guess is that it would have completely different poll results if done today.

How about if someone redoes the poll, say in a separate post, and link to it here. So people that are here today could get in on the poll results...because so many were not even here when that poll was taken!There is a current poll on the "Questions regarding 2 Thessalonians 2" thread that would indicate that you are right about that. In that poll 13 people say the gathering mentioned in 2 Thess 2:1 and the second coming of Christ mentioned in 2 Thess 2:1 are the same thing and only 3 say they are separate events. Well, if they are the same thing then there can't be a pre-trib rapture because the pre-trib rapture view says the gathering to Christ and the second coming are entirely separate events. So, that means 13 gave a post-trib answer in that poll and only 3 gave a pre-trib answer. I think that's a good sign and shows that we are making progress on this forum with showing people the truth of this matter.

Diggindeeper
Sep 19th 2011, 10:36 PM
I think so too. Some that I actually know about HAVE changed their pretrib view. Moonglow is one of them. She came here a staunch pretrib rapture believer. Not so now. She has told on here about that....

There are just far too many questions that pretrib simply cannot answer coherently.

thedee
Sep 20th 2011, 04:57 AM
There are just far too many questions that pretrib simply cannot answer coherently.

ummmmmmmmmm :huh:

Johnny
Sep 20th 2011, 10:15 AM
The rapture, the Jewish Wedding and what Jesus told His dicciples before He accended into heaven goes hand in hand. If you study this you will understand the Pre-Trib rapture.

Diggindeeper
Sep 20th 2011, 02:19 PM
The rapture, the Jewish Wedding and what Jesus told His dicciples before He accended into heaven goes hand in hand. If you study this you will understand the Pre-Trib rapture.

Johnny, most of us who don't agree with it DO understand the pretrib rapture and that is why we have come out of it. And about the 'Jewish wedding' theory, this is only a recent addition to this belief and there is no sufficient history to concur that what they are saying is factual. Add to that the fact that those supposed ancient Jewish wedding traditions were not applied in the Bible. Not by Abraham, not by Issac, not by Jacob, not by Moses, in fact not anywhere in scripture!

John146
Sep 20th 2011, 03:37 PM
ummmmmmmmmm :huh:Do you need an example? Look at the thread where I tried to get you and quiet dove to answer specific questions about Matt 22:1-14. You couldn't answer them coherently. You say the guests with wedding garments on can't be the bride. So then I ask you who exactly the guests with wedding garments on are and what the difference is between them and the bride and you can't answer that question.

Diggindeeper
Sep 20th 2011, 03:48 PM
Speaking of that wedding/rapture connection...here is an informative article:

http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/air/wedding.pdf

thedee
Sep 20th 2011, 05:00 PM
Do you need an example? Look at the thread where I tried to get you and quiet dove to answer specific questions about Matt 22:1-14. You couldn't answer them coherently. You say the guests with wedding garments on can't be the bride. So then I ask you who exactly the guests with wedding garments on are and what the difference is between them and the bride and you can't answer that question.

Apparently again you act as tho nobody responds to your wonderful questions. Did you not read what I said about those who are all involved in the First Resurrection? Did you not read about those who go into the Millennium?

John146
Sep 20th 2011, 06:02 PM
Apparently again you act as tho nobody responds to your wonderful questions. Did you not read what I said about those who are all involved in the First Resurrection? Did you not read about those who go into the Millennium?I haven't read where you've stated how those claims fit with Matt 22:1-14. Can you show me how your view fits with Matt 22:1-14? Who are the guests with wedding garments on? Who are the ones who are invited and refused to come and were then destroyed by God? What do "the highways" represent in that parable? Have you answered these questions before? If so please tell me where.

thedee
Sep 20th 2011, 06:20 PM
I haven't read where you've stated how those claims fit with Matt 22:1-14. Can you show me how your view fits with Matt 22:1-14? Who are the guests with wedding garments on? Who are the ones who are invited and refused to come and were then destroyed by God? What do "the highways" represent in that parable? Have you answered these questions before? If so please tell me where.

Isn't this the parable of the wedding feast?.. (Matthew 22:4) Again, we go back to if this is talking about the wedding or the wedding feast where they sit to eat. I know you think they are of the same but that is where we differ.

John146
Sep 20th 2011, 07:41 PM
Isn't this the parable of the wedding feast?.. (Matthew 22:4) Again, we go back to if this is talking about the wedding or the wedding feast where they sit to eat. I know you think they are of the same but that is where we differ.Regardless of all that, I'd still like to know how you interpret the parable. Since it's a parable it's not speaking of a literal invitation to a literal wedding and/or wedding feast. The invitation to the wedding and/or wedding feast symbolically represents something in reality. What do you think that is? Who are the ones who refused to come and who made light of the invitation and were later destroyed by God? What do "the highways" represent? What is the difference between those who have their wedding garments on and those who don't? Also, why would someone who is only invited to the wedding supper and not to the wedding need a wedding garment on?

Diggindeeper
Sep 21st 2011, 03:37 AM
Please don't tell us that the Wedding Feast is 7 years after the wedding...........:dunno:

thedee
Sep 21st 2011, 12:49 PM
Please don't tell us that the Wedding Feast is 7 years after the wedding...........:dunno:

The union between Christ and the bride is complete when all those who are to be killed are killed (Rev 6). The wedding is not complete until the entire bride is in heaven. Once the entire bride is in heaven (wife is now ready... rev 19) Christ will return with them.

John146
Sep 21st 2011, 07:25 PM
The union between Christ and the bride is complete when all those who are to be killed are killed (Rev 6). The wedding is not complete until the entire bride is in heaven. Once the entire bride is in heaven (wife is now ready... rev 19) Christ will return with them.You don't have to be in heaven to be ready for the bridegroom.

Matt 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Once the wife (which includes the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain unto His coming) is ready then the bridegroom will come and bring the wife to the wedding. And this will occur "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31).

thedee
Sep 21st 2011, 07:53 PM
You don't have to be in heaven to be ready for the bridegroom.

Matt 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Once the wife (which includes the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain unto His coming) is ready then the bridegroom will come and bring the wife to the wedding. And this will occur "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31).

When do you receive the white robes? When did those receive the white robes of Revelation 6?

John146
Sep 21st 2011, 08:26 PM
When do you receive the white robes?It's apparently not at the same time for everyone since the souls mentioned in Rev 6:9-11 who were killed for their faith had them before others who would be killed for their faith after them. All the robes represent is that someone has been made righteous by the blood of Christ and is ready for the climactic second coming of Christ. So, it seems to me that those who are alive and remain unto Christ's coming would be deemed to have the symbolic white robes as well because they will be ready for Him to return just as the dead in Christ will be. And that is exactly what is portrayed in Matt 25:1-13.


When did those receive the white robes of Revelation 6?After they were killed. But what does that prove? What about those who are not killed? If the requirement for receiving white robes was to be martyred then the bride of Christ would only consist of people who have been martyred for their faith. But we know that is not the case.

vinsight4u8
Sep 21st 2011, 08:49 PM
i don't see the white robes for the 5th seal martyrs as the same thing that the wife is arrayed in when she puts on righteousness in Rev. 19.

John did not write in Rev. 19 in a way that would make it seem he had already seen those outfits in the past.

in fine linen
the fine linen is the righteousness of saints

/We don't put on righteousness until we see Jesus Christ coming, as that is when we will be like Him.

I also don't believe a great multitude in Rev. 7 is the same one given white robes in the 5th seal part in Rev. 6.

Rev. 7 a great multitude

v14 ...these came out of great tribulation...washed their robes...made them white...


/KJV

vinsight4u8
Sep 21st 2011, 08:53 PM
Daniel 12:10
Many shall be purified and made white, and tried...

thedee
Sep 22nd 2011, 04:08 AM
It's apparently not at the same time for everyone since the souls mentioned in Rev 6:9-11 who were killed for their faith had them before others who would be killed for their faith after them.

The rapture of 1Thes4 has occurred at this point. Therefore the Lord is now awaiting for the rest who are to be killed. If the rapture has not yet occurred then why would the Lord have to wait? Why not just return and catch them up at that point instead of waiting for their death?


it seems to me that those who are alive and remain unto Christ's coming would be deemed to have the symbolic white robes as well because they will be ready for Him to return just as the dead in Christ will be

Odd that those in Revelation 6 do not receive theirs until after being killed.


After they were killed. But what does that prove?

It proves that you don't receive your white robes until AFTER death or if you were harpazo'd earlier.... in heaven.


What about those who are not killed?

Those who were not killed before the tribulation period were raptured and also all the dead in Christ whether they were killed or died of natural causes it don't matter.

Revelation 6 is specifically taking about those who are killed during the tribulation period.


If the requirement for receiving white robes was to be martyred then the bride of Christ would only consist of people who have been martyred for their faith. But we know that is not the case.

Nope, you are totally missing the point. You are judged on your rewards once you get to heaven. That is why those in Rev 6 don't get robes until they are killed. Those who were raptured prior will be judged on their rewards also and receive their robes.

I believe the Lord is waiting for them all to be killed so that they can receive their rewards hence their robes and the wife will now be ready. Once the wife is ready and only then will the Second Coming take place.

John146
Sep 22nd 2011, 06:05 PM
The rapture of 1Thes4 has occurred at this point.How are you coming to that conclusion? You continually make claims without backing them up with scripture.


Therefore the Lord is now awaiting for the rest who are to be killed. If the rapture has not yet occurred then why would the Lord have to wait?Why not? I don't see your point here.


Why not just return and catch them up at that point instead of waiting for their death?Why not wait? You're going to have to explain what you're getting at here in more detail because I'm not seeing your point at all.


Odd that those in Revelation 6 do not receive theirs until after being killed.So what? What does that say about those who are not killed? Nothing.


It proves that you don't receive your white robes until AFTER death or if you were harpazo'd earlier.... in heaven.It does not prove that at all. If those who are alive and remain are deemed to be ready when Christ is about to return then they too will be considered to be clothed in fine linen at that time and ready for His return. You don't have to be dead to be deemed righteous and ready for His return. The proof of that is found here (unless you somehow think the wise virgins are dead):

Matt 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

This proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that you don't have to be physically dead and in heaven in order to be ready for the bridegroom to come.


Those who were not killed before the tribulation period were raptured and also all the dead in Christ whether they were killed or died of natural causes it don't matter.

Revelation 6 is specifically taking about those who are killed during the tribulation period.Okay, then why are you drawing conclusions about the entire bride from Rev 6 if it's only speaking about people who are killed?


Nope, you are totally missing the point.I get your point and I completely disagree with it.


You are judged on your rewards once you get to heaven.Where does scripture teach that? Instead, I see this:

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

We will be judged and rewarded at the second coming of Christ (see Matt 25:31-46 also) not before.


That is why those in Rev 6 don't get robes until they are killed. Those who were raptured prior will be judged on their rewards also and receive their robes.Where is the scripture that teaches this? How can I take you seriously if you don't offer any scripture to back up your claims?


I believe the Lord is waiting for them all to be killed so that they can receive their rewards hence their robes and the wife will now be ready. Once the wife is ready and only then will the Second Coming take place.Again, the rewards aren't given until His Second Coming (Rev 22:12, Matt 16:27, Matt 25:31-46) so you are clearly in error when trying to claim that the rewards are given before that.

thedee
Sep 23rd 2011, 04:27 AM
How are you coming to that conclusion? You continually make claims without backing them up with scripture.

Why not? I don't see your point here.

Why not wait? You're going to have to explain what you're getting at here in more detail because I'm not seeing your point at all.

So what? What does that say about those who are not killed? Nothing.

It does not prove that at all. If those who are alive and remain are deemed to be ready when Christ is about to return then they too will be considered to be clothed in fine linen at that time and ready for His return. You don't have to be dead to be deemed righteous and ready for His return. The proof of that is found here (unless you somehow think the wise virgins are dead):

Matt 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

This proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that you don't have to be physically dead and in heaven in order to be ready for the bridegroom to come.

Okay, then why are you drawing conclusions about the entire bride from Rev 6 if it's only speaking about people who are killed?

I get your point and I completely disagree with it.

Where does scripture teach that? Instead, I see this:

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

We will be judged and rewarded at the second coming of Christ (see Matt 25:31-46 also) not before.

Where is the scripture that teaches this? How can I take you seriously if you don't offer any scripture to back up your claims?

Again, the rewards aren't given until His Second Coming (Rev 22:12, Matt 16:27, Matt 25:31-46) so you are clearly in error when trying to claim that the rewards are given before that.

No need to answer here being same discussion is taking place in "Satan's being cast out of Heaven.. is it a future event" thread.

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 24th 2011, 03:22 AM
rapturists can't explain their theory clearly. it always changes.

Matt 24
---->29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other



before this a few verses up HE also says antiChrist sits in the temple (showing himself as IF he were GOD)
paul also corrects the misinterpretation of Ithes in II thes 2 which says the Lord's day comes after the workings and great signs of satan (fire from heaven, sun darkened by the release of the locust army, power of miracles for a short period of time) who disguises himself as Christ and how foolish will those people who believe the first supernatural being that shows up. Christ comes after this and those who believe satan is Christ have taken the mark by belief. how sad to be so easily fooled when Christ warns us different. I'd be careful of believing a churches that may unknowingly teach traditional teachings of man that add a rapture to the testimony of Christ.....bad news! Christ will show up after antiChrist as a thief in the night surprising those folks and bringing rewards to those not fooled at the last trump rev 19.

vinsight4u8
Sep 26th 2011, 06:17 PM
So you believe Christ will destroy the righteious with unrighteious. He told Abraham after Sodom and Gomoroh he would never do that again.

I still believe God will rapture is true believers before the great destruction starts on earth.


Sodom and Gomorrah were taken down by the wrath of God. In the trib time, the beast (vile person) of Daniel 11:21 will begin to take down Israel. Nothing durng this time is God's wrath against all of the wicked people. Israel can only be corrected by things that come in less than full measure amounts. This is why the trumpets 1-6 come in portions, such as thirds. Look at what happens in Daniel 11 just a bit before the vile person begins to rule. A king of the north goes missing, not thousands of people can't be found.



Why would a loving God let his own children go through destruction?

God has warned His children to love Him, keep His commandments and keep His word, plus love one another. God will let some of the church be tried. But all saints must wait for His return at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.
Those who understand will instruct many.

vinsight4u8
Sep 26th 2011, 06:45 PM
The church will have been raptured during the 6th seal time, which is before the vials get poured even the first time through.

4th seal - man of sin /in Iraq
5th seal - the great tribulation
6th seal
7th trumpet - saints rewarded at His return
7th seal
trumpet angels get seen by John -to pour out the vials
The vials were shown as full and given to the seven angels in Rev. 15; but at the start of Rev. 15 (v1) John saw that there will also come a time of seven last plagues.
As they near the end, Jesus will come as a thief and not being given out new clothes.
People must keep their garments.

Rev. 18 shows the cup that Babylon uses will be refilled.
Rev. 15 shows the seven angels are given the vials full by one of the four beasts. To have that cup - or seven vials >the one of the four beasts had to be located in the east in Babylon.

Rev. 6 seal 3 shows that all four beasts are in the same location.

thedee
Sep 26th 2011, 06:53 PM
The church will have been raptured during the 6th seal time, which is before the vials get poured even the first time through.

Scripture to support your view?

vinsight4u8
Sep 26th 2011, 11:07 PM
Scripture to support your view?

John refers to subjects as to how he saw them last. Using that thought and looking at Rev. 21:9 we can tell that the last set of plagues John saw happen was the "seven last plagues". This set is noted as the wrath of God, so we must place it to occur no sooner than after the wrath of God begins in the 6th seal and this is also the 7th trumpet His wrath comes time.

Rev. 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues...

/This passage is written after the time of the new heaven and new earth came, so John is referring us to an angel as to telling us what already long ago happened in Revelation. Long before the new heaven and earth part, came the set of the seven last plagues. John noted that they had been seen in vials.

Rev. 21:9 ...one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues...

The same set of plagues was seen back in Rev. 15:1, but they were not seen as being in vials. This means the others in vials came first, and then the vials were refilled.

Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven...the seven last plagues...

15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God...

/not the seven last plagues
The wrath of God has filled these up, yet John would have called them "the seven last plagues" if they were the same set as in Rev. 15:1.

Rev. 17:1
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials...

/At this time, the seven last plagues have not been put in those vials that were just emptied out in Rev. 16 by being poured.

Rev. 18 shows that before the plagues begin aganst Babylon, His people will come out. Jesus is then freeing Israel.

vinsight4u8
Sep 26th 2011, 11:22 PM
Job 14:12 and 14 refer to how Job will get his change at the appointed time, when God calls - He will have a desire to the work of His hands. Job wrote as to how man won't rise till the heavens are not there.

"...till the heavens be no more"

In the 6th seal, the heaven departs and all try to hide from His face.

Rev. 7 is when John is shown visions that help explain the worse part of the seals that had just been opened.


Isaiah 2 shows the wicked hide when the day of the Lord starts. That is the day the church is to blameless till.

Isaiah 2:10 Enter into the rock and hide...for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
v 12 For the day of the LORD...is upon every one...

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 01:58 AM
here's proof that we gather at the Second Advent in rev 19 not the rapture


Re: proof texts for the "second coming"

Eze 13
jer 5:30-31
Matt 7:21-23
Matt 24 (heb 13:5)
mark 13
luke 12:36-43
luke 17:22-37
Luke 21
acts 1:6-12
I thess 4:13-18 , I thess 5:1-4 connected to Eze 13
II thess is VERY detailed and directly connected to (Dan 11:31,Dan 12:11,Matt 24:15,mark 13:14,I tim 4:1-4,james 1:2,II Cor 11:13-15( great deception #4976) rev 12:9 rev 13:12-15)
I cor 15:50-54
II peter 3:8
Rev 1:7
Rev 19:6-9 fulfillment of His Coming

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 02:25 AM
here's proof that we gather at the Second Advent in rev 19 not the rapture


Re: proof texts for the "second coming"

Eze 13
jer 5:30-31
Matt 7:21-23
Matt 24 (heb 13:5)
mark 13
luke 12:36-43
luke 17:22-37
Luke 21
acts 1:6-12
I thess 4:13-18 , I thess 5:1-4 connected to Eze 13
II thess is VERY detailed and directly connected to (Dan 11:31,Dan 12:11,Matt 24:15,mark 13:14,I tim 4:1-4,james 1:2,II Cor 11:13-15( great deception #4976) rev 12:9 rev 13:12-15)
I cor 15:50-54
II peter 3:8
Rev 1:7
Rev 19:6-9 fulfillment of His Coming

What do you think the word Harpazo means in 1Thes4? It means "caught up"... in Latin is where we get Rapture. Don't act like Rapture is not biblical.

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 03:15 AM
read what God says about the false divination of rapture in EZE 13 , those that teach His people to fly to save their souls. there is a word called rapture but it's a false divination of satan to trick people into believing he is Christ ( see that second part of thess where paul corrects that false fly away doctrine) Christ says He returns after the antiChrist so are you calling Christ a liar? Christ also says He comes after the tribulation, is that a lie? paul says Christ comes after satan comes disguised as God/Christ and sits in the temple, is paul a liar? paul says Christ comes after many are deceived and fall away is He wrong? every verse those false teachers use to spread satans message of I'm going to fly you away, your going to have peace when there is no peace(eze13) are spreading the BIG SETUP lie to accept satan disguised as Christ when he comes before Christ. those that believe that mess will receive the mark by belief into their minds and do his work receive his mark in their hands. they are 5 little virgins who thought once they were a virgin always a virgin, till the LORD come and find them in bed with child of satan doing his work (pregnant with child giving suck) and will be harvested out of season with the tares (pray your flight not be in winter)



so don't act like the rapture is the word of God , when its is a lie from satan to lead the sheep astray!

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 04:02 AM
so don't act like the rapture is the word of God , when its is a lie from satan to lead the sheep astray!

Is 1Thes4:17 not the word of God?
"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up(harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."
"deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus"

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 04:13 AM
rapture/harpadzo bunch of garbage


the modern term rapture is derived from the latin word "rapiemur" (base word rapere) located in I thess 4:17 of the vulgate
the new testament was translated from greek not latin. latin: "rapere" means "to be seized or to seize". the modern english is associated with seized with extreme joy or ecstasy even though the root means only "to seize" .

the greek base word "harpadzo" is where the english "caught up" comes from "harpagesometha" in the textus receptus.
Harpadzo litterally means "forceful" or to "seize suddenly by force" which is in line with the latin definition.

now the modern peaceful sweet version of this word sounds like what God is talking about in eze13 and in I tim about so called peace doesn't it? why? maybe from not understanding how quickly we ALL be changed from flesh to spirit when Christ returns in rev 19 in the twinkling of an eye.(I cor 15:51-54) and not understanding the change of body to spirit.


the greek word "harpagesometha" (harpadzo +meta=caught up+among) which lines up with the spirit being suddenly taken out of the body to be among Christ and the saints He brings with Him. flesh and evil rudiments are burnt up (as they are already judged) by the brightness of HIS coming. so fast, were gathered before the body hits the ground (Zech 14:12)
the spirits come out to shine as stars dan 12:3 (for the saved) also in Zech 14:12 those who fight against God are called the plague cause that's their inheritance in end times soon, as ALL flesh receives that curse on Christ's return. the Christian has put on immortality and the non Christian remains spiritually dead till the 1000yrs is over.


most rapturists mistakenly think the flesh is going to be snatched up however true Christians know the truth (as paul told us in I thess 4:13-18,and I cor 15) that the spirit is taken out of the body not the flesh lol. God has no need or desire for carnal corruptible flesh and neither will we. this is a very good clue about these rapturists who love the worldly flesh so much they want to hang on to it eternally and is the shadow we have between us and God. the physical egg shell.



we ALL must die once, those alive and remain will see it on Christ's true and only coming at the last trump and satan wants you to believe in a false mistimed disguised antiChrist which is another office of satan before true Christ comes.
the saved go to Christ,He brings us back with Him when He comes for the remaining spirits. when you shuck corn you don't keep the shuck and neither does Christ.


there is famine of THE WORD in the world today. most are hearing junk and garbage. true Christians are warriors for God who stand against satan and his false teachers and doctrines.true Christians are preparing to make a stand AGAINST satan NOT believe in his lies and false rapture doctrine. we will morn to see our brothers and sisters run after the false Christ knowing what's going to happen to them when true Christ arrives after the antiChrist. Matt 24, mark 13, luke 21, I thess 4,II thess 2, I cor 15, rev 1:7, and fulfilled in rev 19.

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 04:24 AM
there is famine of THE WORD in the world today.

There sure is. You best get eating.

Also, get your info from the word and not Bible Truth Lion website... lol

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 04:24 AM
sure it's the word of God...but WHERE is it in the bible that Christ returns before He returns. if false teachers didn't mistime the coming of Christ and lie about His coming it would be ok. but since they say this event isn't what Christ told us but another then I'm gonna call satan out every time.


IS this NOT THE ACTUAL WORDS OF CHRIST?

Matt 24:
29Immediately after the tribulation (<-----)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



so we should believe a verse that says NOTHING about being gathered BEFORE Christ says
yet rapturists DON'T BELIEVE CHRIST. and they will be so surprised when Christ says I NEVER KNEW THEE DEPART FROM ME :cry:

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 04:27 AM
Believe and be saved and believe God and His Son. just like satan to avoid the question. Christ was talking to rapturists in John 8:44

and again what about matt 24,luke 21,and mark 13? the words of Christ? are you calling Christ a liar?

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 04:30 AM
There sure is. You best get eating.

Also, get your info from the word and not Bible Truth Lion website... lol


www.biblestudytools.com/??? hummm

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 04:30 AM
sure it's the word of God...

Seems to me you get a lot of your info from here:
http://www.bibletruthlion.org/rapture%20-%20part%201.html

Seems to be a lot of word for word copy and paste.


but WHERE is it in the bible that Christ returns before He returns

That is like asking where in the old Testament does it say Christ comes twice.

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 04:32 AM
Believe and be saved and believe God and His Son. just like satan to avoid the question. Christ was talking to rapturists in John 8:44

and again what about matt 24,luke 21,and mark 13? the words of Christ? are you calling Christ a liar?

Matt 24 is the Second Coming when Christ returns with all His saints who will be clothed in fine linen (Rev 19). In order for the saints to return with Him they must of been taken prior.

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 04:33 AM
again? no answer in the word? Here's where Christ said He returns Matt 24, mark 13, luke 21 it happens in rev 19.

again where in the scripture does it say Christ returns before the second advent?

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 04:34 AM
again? no answer in the word? Here's where Christ said He returns Matt 24, mark 13, luke 21 it happens in rev 19.

again where in the scripture does it say Christ returns before the second advent?

1Thes4:17...........

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 04:35 AM
again? no answer in the word? Here's where Christ said He returns Matt 24, mark 13, luke 21 it happens in rev 19.

again where in the scripture does it say Christ returns before the second advent?

We see the bride in Heaven in Revelation 19. I wonder how they got there........... :hmm:

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 04:38 AM
Matt 24 is the Second Coming when Christ returns with all His saints who will be clothed in fine linen (Rev 19). In order for the saints to return with Him they must of been taken prior.


silly, have you not read the bible at all? do you think we go to a hole in the ground? didn't paul explain that in the same scripture your trying to quote? better read I thess 4:13-18 again! it says IF you believe Christ resurrected then you believe we resurrect when we (the saved) die he goes on in I cor 15 and explains it so simple a child could understand it. He even questions the salvation of those who don't believe this and calls them fools. which group are you in?
those who believe in the resurrection (sheep) or those who don't (goats)

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 04:40 AM
silly, have you not read the bible at all?

I know one thing is that I don't read that website you do where you get all your info.

So what say you about the bride in heaven in Rev 19 prior to the Second Coming?

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 04:40 AM
We see the bride in Heaven in Revelation 19. I wonder how they got there........... :hmm:


I wonder when this is THE FULFILLMENT when He RETURNS for the remainder, you JUST MADE MY POINT FOR ME

the saved dead resurrect in heaven and He comes and brings them with Him for the rest of us. thanks!

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 04:43 AM
I wonder when this is THE FULFILLMENT when He RETURNS for the remainder, you JUST MADE MY POINT FOR ME

So the bride is ready but a good portion of them are still on earth and the other in heaven? That is odd. I would think if the bride is ready they are all together... in heaven and will return together with the Lord clothed in fine linen (Rev 19)


the saved dead resurrect in heaven and He comes and brings them with Him for the rest of us. thanks!

So I guess the bride isn't ready even tho Rev 19 says they are ready. That is odd. I guess I will go with what Rev 19 says instead of your word.

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 04:44 AM
what about when Christ tells us only about one second coming in matt 24,luke 21 and mark 13?

still waiting for your answer to Christ's words. the second advent is spoken of and satan uses his false teachers to try to twist the word of God. they can't answer for themselves in the word because a true watchman watches and sorry rapture doctrine isn't biblical. hope you can see it and not take the mark of that devil coming soon before Christ does.:cry:

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 04:46 AM
what about when Christ tells us only about one second coming in matt 24,luke 21 and mark 13?

Yes, one more coming back to the earth. 1Thes4 He doesn't come back to the earth... we meet Him in the air.


hope you can see it and not take the mark of that devil coming soon before Christ does.

I won't be here so that is impossible. Those who are left here may accept the rider of the white horse in Rev 6.

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 04:48 AM
I figured you could see when paul says the saved dead are resurrected and returns with Him and those that are alive and remain till He come is the bride split by death. can't you read the word? can't you see or do you have the spirit of slumber?
are their NOT saved people in heaven and on earth? how then can the marriage take place if HE doesn't come for us and translate us into spirits in a twinkling of an eye. comeon now...your arguing against the bible. I see why paul questions their salvation now.

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 04:51 AM
I figured you could see when paul says the saved dead are resurrected and returns with Him and those that are alive and remain till He come is the bride split by death. can't you read the word?

How can a bride be ready when some are on earth and some are in heaven? (Rev 19)


are their NOT saved people in heaven and on earth? how then can the marriage take place if HE doesn't come for us and translate us into spirits in a twinkling of an eye. comeon now...your arguing against the bible. I see why paul questions their salvation now.

He does at the Rapture of 1Thes4;1Cor15. Also, those killed during the tribulation are told to wait... why? (Rev 6). They receive their white robes upon death. Once all have been killed who are to be killed... then the complete bride will be in heaven.

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 04:51 AM
what scripture backs you up that you won't be here? Christ returns when HE says HE does or are you above Christ. have you told Christ to come before for just a few? when He says He comes after the tribulation. your saying your not going through the tribulation if alive? that your going to have peace not tribulation?

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 04:53 AM
[QUOTE=thedee;2748529]Yes, one more coming back to the earth. 1Thes4 He doesn't come back to the earth... we meet Him in the air.

ok but where does it say before the second advent? hummmm can't seem to find that little scripture NO WHERE!

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 04:54 AM
what scripture backs you up that you won't be here?

1Thes4;1Cor15;2Thes2;Rev4;Rev19 etc...


When He says He comes after the tribulation. your saying your not going through the tribulation if alive? that your going to have peace not tribulation?

Christ comes after the tribulation with His entire bride who comes back with Him from heaven (Rev 19). You read that right? Those clothed in fine linen?

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 04:56 AM
ok but where does it say before the second advent? hummmm can't seem to find that little scripture NO WHERE!

The entire bride is seen in heaven before the Second Coming in Rev 19. Read it. The bride is ready clothed in fine linen and then they return with Him

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 04:56 AM
where does Christ tell us about the rapture? He said He told us all things? so where does Christ say He comes? of yeah in Matt 24,luke 21 and mark 13 at the second advent after antiChrist and after the tribulation. anyone who thinks they can get to heaven outside of Christ will probably burn and that's so sad.

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 04:57 AM
where does Christ tell us about the rapture?

John 14.
also Paul speaks of it in 1Thes4.

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 04:58 AM
sure I did read rev 19 I quoted it, it's where the TRUE CHRIST returns after the antiChrist and after the tribulation. so where is this rapture at? is it under a rock? is it behind a tree? where is that sneaky lie of satan in the scripture? I can't find it nowhere!

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 04:58 AM
anyone who thinks they can get to heaven outside of Christ will probably burn and that's so sad.

LOL... who said otherwise?

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 04:59 AM
sure I did read rev 19 I quoted it, it's where the TRUE CHRIST returns after the antiChrist and after the tribulation. so where is this rapture at? is it under a rock? is it behind a tree? where is that sneaky lie of satan in the scripture? I can't find it nowhere!

Who do you think those that return with Him that are clothed in fine linen?(Rev 19:14). The bride of course (Rev 19:8).

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 05:01 AM
no but good try..Ithes 4 says trump not a secret rapture, I cor 15 :51-54 says the last trump so those two verses are about the ONLY Second Coming . now where in John 14 does Christ say He returns before the Second Coming, which would make it a third coming wouldn't it?

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 05:02 AM
no but good try..Ithes 4 says trump not a secret rapture,

Yup and the trump is a description of the Lords voice when He says "COME UP HERE". (Rev 1:10;Rev 4:1)


now where in John 14 does Christ say He returns before the Second Coming, which would make it a third coming wouldn't it?

Where does it say at the Second Coming? lol

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 05:03 AM
Who do you think those that return with Him that are clothed in fine linen?(Rev 19:14). The bride of course (Rev 19:8).

leett meee sayyy itttt verryyy slooowww

the same verses you just quoted, He brings the saved dead with Him.

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 05:04 AM
leett meee sayyy itttt verryyy slooowww

the same verses you just quoted, He brings the saved dead with Him.

Oh just the dead.... hmmm. But it says the wife has been made ready. So that means the entire bride must be in heaven clothed in fine linen.

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 05:08 AM
Yup and the trump is a description of the Lords voice when He says "COME UP HERE". (Rev 1:10;Rev 4:1)

oh you mean where God calls john up in the spirit like paul? yet john returned to 95 ad so what about it?


where does it say at the Second Coming? lol where does it say He returns more than once? you can read about the one and only time Christ returns in Matt 24, luke 21 and mark 13. also you need to read II peter 3 where the elements burn up when He returns. so how does that fit in to rapture..we burn up then we don't burn up, He returns befor He returns, the bible says one thing but rapturist believe another, when and where is this secret little rapture at? I can't find it anywhere.

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 05:10 AM
Oh just the dead.... hmmm. But it says the wife has been made ready. So that means the entire bride must be in heaven clothed in fine linen.


oh wow I guess those that are alive and remain don't make it In your version now? wow ? to bad huh, oh how is it the elect are still here, and if the bride is in heaven WHAT"S HE COMING BACK FOR? come on your spreading confusion

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 05:10 AM
where does it say He returns more than once?

Where in the Old Testament does it says He comes more than once?

Before asking all kinds of question you need to answer how the bride is ready but yet you say they are still on the earth? Rev 19 says the bride is ready and are clothed in fine linen. So are some clothed and some are yet to be clothed?

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 05:12 AM
oh wow I guess those that are alive and remain don't make it In your version now?

Your confused. 1Thes4 occurs before the tribulation period where Christ takes His bride. Once all those who are to be killed in Rev 6 occurs then the entire bride will be in heaven and the wife will be ready and clothed in fine linen. They then will return with Him at the Second Coming.


to bad huh, oh how is it the elect are still here

The elect of Mathew 24 are jews. Tribe is always refered to as Jews.


HAT"S HE COMING BACK FOR? come on your spreading confusion

Coming back to rescue Israel.

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 05:17 AM
nowhere does it say it's before the tribulation
Christ said He comes after the tribulation, are you calling Christ a liar?
Christ died for all, Christ did away with judaism and was the begining of Christianity
coming back for the rest of His bride.

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 05:27 AM
see new Christian... false doctrine doesn't stand up to the word. NEVER be afraid of the false teachers and pray for them that they maybe saved. We will go through the tribulation, anyone that says different is calling Christ a liar. Christ told us He returns AFTER the tribulation and AFTER the antiChrist (II thess 2) who disguises himself as God/Christ to fool many. DO NOT BELIEVE HIM or you receive the mark by belief, DO NOT DO HIS WORK IN ANY WAY or you receive his mark in your hand. Mark 13.luke 21 and matt 24 I thess 4, II thess 2, I cor 15 all about Christ's one time return. see EZE 13 and find out what God says about the fly away doctrine as witchcraft.

John 8:32
Sep 27th 2011, 12:51 PM
The elect of Mathew 24 are jews. Tribe is always refered to as Jews.



Coming back to rescue Israel.

I grew up in the Methodist church, they always taught that the Jews were Israel and Israel was the Jews. I didn't much care until one day I stumbled across 2Kings 16, first place in the Bible the word Jew is mentioned. Interestingly enough, Israel is at war with the Jews! They were two separate nations after Solomon. They fought amongst themselves. Each had it's own King and they went into captivity. Judah, Benjamin and Levi, collectively known as the Jews went into captivity over 100 years after Israel. Judah came back, but Israel never did, they remained dispersed (diaspora). I do not think this fits into the theory that the elect are the Jews.

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 12:56 PM
nowhere does it say it's before the tribulation
Christ said He comes after the tribulation, are you calling Christ a liar?

He comes after the tribulation at the Second Coming. His feet will touch the mount of olives. In 1Thes4 we meet Him in the air.


coming back for the rest of His bride.

Why would He come back for the rest of the bride when the entire bride is in heaven? They all return with Him at the Second Coming. Revelation 19 says the bride is ready. How can the bride be ready if some are still on earth and the rest in heaven? How can the bride be ready when some are clothed in fine linen and some are not?

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 01:02 PM
see new Christian...

I am not a new Christian. Been reading for years.


false doctrine doesn't stand up to the word

You are correct. That is why you can't answer how a bride can be ready but yet the entire bride is not together and not clothed in fine linen.


NEVER be afraid of the false teachers and pray for them that they maybe saved.

The view on the timing of the rapture is not a salvation issue.


We will go through the tribulation, anyone that says different is calling Christ a liar

The Jews thought when Christ was here the first time He was going to setup His kingdom. How did that go for them? Did the Jews think He was only going to come once?


DO NOT BELIEVE HIM or you receive the mark by belief,

lol. I won't be here. I will be with the Lord. Even if I was here I am sealed by the blood of Jesus Christ. Are you?

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 01:06 PM
I grew up in the Methodist church, they always taught that the Jews were Israel and Israel was the Jews. I didn't much care until one day I stumbled across 2Kings 16, first place in the Bible the word Jew is mentioned. Interestingly enough, Israel is at war with the Jews! They were two separate nations after Solomon. They fought amongst themselves. Each had it's own King and they went into captivity. Judah, Benjamin and Levi, collectively known as the Jews went into captivity over 100 years after Israel. Judah came back, but Israel never did, they remained dispersed (diaspora). I do not think this fits into the theory that the elect are the Jews.

Tribe always refers to the tribes of Israel.... Including Mat 24:30;Rev 1:7;Rev 5:9 etc...

quiet dove
Sep 27th 2011, 01:54 PM
read what God says about the false divination of rapture in EZE 13 , those that teach His people to fly to save their souls. there is a word called rapture but it's a false divination of satan to trick people into believing he is Christ ( see that second part of thess where paul corrects that false fly away doctrine) Christ says He returns after the antiChrist so are you calling Christ a liar? Christ also says He comes after the tribulation, is that a lie? paul says Christ comes after satan comes disguised as God/Christ and sits in the temple, is paul a liar? paul says Christ comes after many are deceived and fall away is He wrong? every verse those false teachers use to spread satans message of I'm going to fly you away, your going to have peace when there is no peace(eze13) are spreading the BIG SETUP lie to accept satan disguised as Christ when he comes before Christ. those that believe that mess will receive the mark by belief into their minds and do his work receive his mark in their hands. they are 5 little virgins who thought once they were a virgin always a virgin, till the LORD come and find them in bed with child of satan doing his work (pregnant with child giving suck) and will be harvested out of season with the tares (pray your flight not be in winter)

so don't act like the rapture is the word of God , when its is a lie from satan to lead the sheep astray!

Paul says a lot of things but you need to not act like disagreeing with you equates to calling Paul a liar. And there is plenty of reason to believe the rapture is in scripture, whether you agree with it or not. Your pronouncements of judgement or humorous. You may end up rather surprised at just who is and is not a false teacher. Be careful regarding the "measure with which you judge", you may end up handing on the end of your own rope.

quiet dove
Sep 27th 2011, 02:10 PM
Mod note
A person disagreeing with you does not equate to calling Paul, Jesus, or the Bible into question regarding anything being a lie. Everyone here studies and WILL be spoken to respectfully, mutual respect is REQUIRED. Disagree all you want, but it WILL be done respectfully, minus any insulting tone and/or insinuation

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 06:43 PM
Jesus said it was number 3.

He promised to recieve us.....when he comes again, and he said that his coming would be after the tribulation.

Before we can be recieved into the kingdom we must put on immortality,-- and we are raised the last day at the last trumpet.
We know that the living saints do not precede the dead, but all together we are caught up to meet him.
So this rules out a rapture to Christ, before the ressurection on the last day.



Good to see a fellow brother and elect ready to make a stand for Jesus. some will STAND UP while others will fly away....we know we DON'T want to be those TAKEN if the field by satan, we WANT to be left behind with Christ.



Heaven and earth passing away at the ressurection and the second coming places the GT before it.




Hey Jeff good for you brother! your all over the truth! yet remember we(the saved) resurrect
"as we die" as paul goes into great detail twice once in I thess 4:13-18 concerning the saved dead, He then again goes into even greater detail in I cor 15 and questions the salvation of those who say different calling them fools.ouch



Christ returns:
when HE said He would after the antiChrist and tribulation (your all over that brother!!!) Matt 24,luke 21,mark 13,
I thess (trump)II thess 2, I Cor 15 (last trump 7th)

the antiChrist comes disguised as Christ and leads many so called Christians to "fall away" God Himself allows satan great power to finally separate the goats out of HIS sheep. II thess 2, revelations
(as a wolf in sheeps clothing.) 666 comes BEFORE 777 AMEN!


the saved dead resurrect cause He brings them back with Him I thess 4, I cor 15
those who are "alive and remain" will be changed (into spirit bodies) in the twinkling of an eye I thess 4
ALL will be changed I cor 15 (not a select few) in a moment faster than the bodies can hit the ground zec 14


His return is fulfilled in rev 19 and anyone who says different is going against the word of God and as paul did we have to question their salvation. Thank you God you chose us to know this before the foundation of this earth age.

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 06:56 PM
Mod note
A person disagreeing with you does not equate to calling Paul, Jesus, or the Bible into question regarding anything being a lie. Everyone here studies and WILL be spoken to respectfully, mutual respect is REQUIRED. Disagree all you want, but it WILL be done respectfully, minus any insulting tone and/or insinuation



when someone says something that is opposite of Christ what should we do? agree with them? allow the devil to rule? or stand up for Christ and His word? again I see you answer with words but no scripture? so again I'll ask what scripture is it that says Christ returns before He said He would? where is the proof in the scriptures ? because what makes you think your right and not wrong? have you ever thought of what the consequence is? Christ warned of the coming antiChrist and paul and john warned us how he comes disguised as Christ and with great power signs and miracles....calling fire down from heaven. people who have twisted the timing of Christ will see this and think it's Christ coming in rapture and go right into the arms of satan. I don't mind the ridicule in fact I rejoice in it. the scriptures say what they say and to go against it is not of God ...is it?

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 07:00 PM
Note to the Mod you are NOT GOD ! HE is in control! nobody has been disrepectful but doesn't it say not to be a respecter of men?

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 07:05 PM
how can the bride all be in heaven when He comes back for us that are alive? so what happens to those that are alive and remain? it plainly says we that are alive and remain will be caught up ? as you say so how do you get caught up in the air if the bride is already in heave? hummm ? are you saying that Christians are not the bride? think about it. those that are alive are also the bride, He returns after the tribulation like He said He would. nowhere in the bible does it say He returns before the Second Advent. the rapture theory is full of confusion and we know the author of confusion is our enemy.

John146
Sep 27th 2011, 07:32 PM
So the bride is ready but a good portion of them are still on earth and the other in heaven? That is odd.Why is that odd? That would be like saying what is portrayed in the following passage is odd (with the understanding that those represented by the wise virgins are alive and on earth):

Matt 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.


I would think if the bride is ready they are all together...That is what you would think for whatever reason, but it's not what scripture teaches.

Watchmen 4 Christ
Sep 27th 2011, 09:30 PM
I grew up in the Methodist church, they always taught that the Jews were Israel and Israel was the Jews. I didn't much care until one day I stumbled across 2Kings 16, first place in the Bible the word Jew is mentioned. Interestingly enough, Israel is at war with the Jews! They were two separate nations after Solomon. They fought amongst themselves. Each had it's own King and they went into captivity. Judah, Benjamin and Levi, collectively known as the Jews went into captivity over 100 years after Israel. Judah came back, but Israel never did, they remained dispersed (diaspora). I do not think this fits into the theory that the elect are the Jews.

yeah I never thought about the two houses till I really started to study. wow the history is awesome!

If you really want to be blown away , the ten tribes of Israel (who the palestinians are own our land) were taken captive by the assyrians(modern day germans decedent from) taken over the Caucasus mountains into europe,canada and the americas and are called Caucasians today fact. that doesn't take away from our ethnic brothers gentiles who God made before us and HE looked and it was good. there are false kennites (children of cain) that Christ warns us about, calls them out John 8:44, and plainly calls them the sons of cain the son of satan (parables of the tares and wheat) who claim to be of the house of Juda but are NOT! in fact this is what symrna is teaching in rev that makes Christ happy. the house of Juda (along with the ten tribes) settled into Ireland and Scotland where they still have Jacobs pillar (stone of scone) they use for new Kings and Queens to sit on while going through the ceremony. Israelites are the one who discovered america LLOOOONGGG ago proof: the oldest known ten commandments carved in stone in ancient hebrew dating to around 500bc can be found in new mexico. :huh: yep right here in the usa and it's a national park or run by the gov. the natives story is when they came there the stones were there already. wow huh? don't even get me on the giants...that's another subject that will blow your mind. 36ft bones found? smaller giant bones found all in america? makes ole bigfoot come into possible reality.

thedee
Sep 27th 2011, 09:38 PM
Why is that odd?

It is odd because it says the wife is ready. They have all been clothed in fine linen.

You know why i think it is odd so why are you asking again?

ProjectPeter
Sep 27th 2011, 10:50 PM
Note to the Mod you are NOT GOD ! HE is in control! nobody has been disrepectful but doesn't it say not to be a respecter of men?When I was a child.... now we'll proceed as if that is still what you are. See you in chat to moderators.

John146
Sep 28th 2011, 05:02 PM
It is odd because it says the wife is ready. They have all been clothed in fine linen.

You know why i think it is odd so why are you asking again?Calm down. I just wanted to show that thinking that is odd would be like thinking Matt 25:10 is odd. You're reasoning for seeing it as odd makes no sense, IMO.

thedee
Sep 28th 2011, 05:07 PM
Calm down. I just wanted to show that thinking that is odd would be like thinking Matt 25:10 is odd. You're reasoning for seeing it as odd makes no sense, IMO.

You need to relax....lol

Those in Matthew 25 better not be late for the wedding feast otherwise the door will shut before them.

Diggindeeper
Sep 28th 2011, 05:53 PM
Perhaps what John saw in Rev. 7 should be considered along with any discussion about "They were given white robes..."

Here is what he saw, but of course he expounds farther on it later in the book of Revelation....

Rev. 7:
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


They, those clothed in white robes, had WASHED their robes and made them white! They were not merely handed/given white robes! They, themselves, had washed them and made them white...and the white robes (as has already been proven in this thread!) is the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the saints!

Now, the way I see this is that these did not just go to a big tub filled with Christ's blood and wash them on a scrub board. Although a literal reading would say this! No, they washed them (or earned them!) by righteous obedience. Certainly not because they happened to be born at a certain him in history or were of any preferred group of people over another.

John146
Sep 28th 2011, 07:11 PM
You need to relax....lolI do? Not really. Who was the one getting upset about me asking a question again?


Those in Matthew 25 better not be late for the wedding feast otherwise the door will shut before them.Do they need to be in heaven in order to be ready? Why is the mention of the wise virgins being ready any different than the mention of the wife being ready? What does the wife make herself ready for exactly?

thedee
Sep 28th 2011, 08:07 PM
I do? Not really. Who was the one getting upset about me asking a question again?

Only because in another past you accused me of asking the same thing over and over. You do the same thing.


Do they need to be in heaven in order to be ready?

Not the guest.


Why is the mention of the wise virgins being ready any different than the mention of the wife being ready?

A bride has to be ready for a wedding. Likewise the guest have to be ready for the feast. Don't show up late. That is rude.


What does the wife make herself ready for exactly?

It is when the entire bride is united with Christ.... (union between husband and wife).

John146
Sep 28th 2011, 09:26 PM
Not the guest.Why not?


A bride has to be ready for a wedding.So, I assume by this statement that you believe what the wife will have made herself ready for in Rev 19:8 is the wedding, right? Now, can you show me where Rev 19 describes the wedding as already taking place before Christ returns because I don't see that. It's one thing to be ready for the wedding and another thing entirely for the wedding to actually take place.


It is when the entire bride is united with Christ.... (union between husband and wife).To be ready to be united with Christ and actually being united with Christ (in the sense that 1 Thess 4:14-17 talks about) is not the same thing. We can see that in Matthew 25:1-13. Those who are symbolically represented by the wise virgins are ready for their bridegroom, Christ, before He comes and then are united with Him when He comes. Aren't we going to be united with Christ at the time of the rapture? When do you believe the wife will have made herself ready for the wedding in relation to the rapture? Before or after? Doesn't Rev 19:8 occur after the rapture in your view?

thedee
Sep 29th 2011, 03:57 AM
Now, can you show me where Rev 19 describes the wedding as already taking place before Christ returns because I don't see that. It's one thing to be ready for the wedding and another thing entirely for the wedding to actually take place.

I already told you. When the entire bride is united with Christ the wedding will be complete. In Revelation 19 we see the bride ready and arrayed in fine linen. The wedding garment is the righteous acts of the saints. An act is something we do. So in order for the bride to have received their wedding garment they must have already been judged and given their rewards based off of their works/acts.

We read in Ephesians:
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." - Eph 2:10

Salvation results in good works. Good works results in rewards. Each individual believers is judged and rewarded on what they have done here on earth for the cause of Christ. They then will receive their wedding garment which is the righteous acts of the saints.

John146
Sep 29th 2011, 04:49 PM
I already told you. When the entire bride is united with Christ the wedding will be complete. In Revelation 19 we see the bride ready and arrayed in fine linen. The wedding garment is the righteous acts of the saints. An act is something we do. So in order for the bride to have received their wedding garment they must have already been judged and given their rewards based off of their works/acts.That doesn't happen until the second coming of Christ, though. I don't know how you can have believers receiving their rewards based off their works/acts before this (and Matt 25:31-46):

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

thedee
Sep 29th 2011, 07:45 PM
That doesn't happen until the second coming of Christ, though. I don't know how you can have believers receiving their rewards based off their works/acts before this (and Matt 25:31-46):

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

They have their wedding garments on Eric. The wedding garment is the righteous acts of the saints. They clearly have them on in heaven prior to the second coming in Revelation 19.

Those in Matthew 25 will also get a garment. They are not the bride but guest at the wedding. Luke 12:35-37. The door will shut and they will sit and eat at the feast.

John146
Sep 29th 2011, 09:11 PM
They have their wedding garments on Eric. The wedding garment is the righteous acts of the saints. They clearly have them on in heaven prior to the second coming in Revelation 19.Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

When will Rev 22:12 happen? Is that not referring to the second coming of Christ which occurs "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31)? Where are you getting the idea that anyone receives rewards before His second coming? Scripture never teaches that anywhere.

Diggindeeper
Sep 29th 2011, 09:29 PM
The exact words of Jesus.
Rev 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

thedee
Sep 30th 2011, 04:11 AM
The exact words of Jesus.
Rev 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Yup, the Lord announces His soon Coming.

thedee
Sep 30th 2011, 04:13 AM
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

When will Rev 22:12 happen? Is that not referring to the second coming of Christ which occurs "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31)? Where are you getting the idea that anyone receives rewards before His second coming? Scripture never teaches that anywhere.

Matthew 24:29-31 is not the Church. The bride returns with Christ clothed in fine linen. The fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints showing that they have already received their rewards in heaven.

John146
Sep 30th 2011, 05:23 PM
Matthew 24:29-31 is not the Church. The bride returns with Christ clothed in fine linen. The fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints showing that they have already received their rewards in heaven.You're not addressing my question. When do you believe Rev 22:12 will happen? Because whenever it happens, that is when believers will receive their rewards. And it seems clear to me that the verse is referring to the second coming of Christ which we know will occur "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31).

thedee
Sep 30th 2011, 05:51 PM
You're not addressing my question. When do you believe Rev 22:12 will happen? Because whenever it happens, that is when believers will receive their rewards. And it seems clear to me that the verse is referring to the second coming of Christ which we know will occur "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31).

Why do you think it will occur after the tribulation? Why do you think that it links with Matthew 24:29-31?

I believe everyone will receive rewards based of their works they did here on this earth. The Church, or those who are caught up(1Thes4) and also the killed saints(Rev 6) will get their rewards in heaven. I believe this because of their white robes which is the righteous acts of the saints.

Do you believe they get their white robes before or after receiving their rewards?

Christ comes for His bride... they receive their rewords in heaven. At the Second Coming, Christ will judge those as to their entrance into he Millennial Kingdom. The saved alone shall enter (Matt 25:31-46).

John146
Sep 30th 2011, 08:05 PM
Why do you think it will occur after the tribulation?Because Christ's second coming will occur after the tribulation (Matt 24:29-31) and Rev 22:12 refers to His second coming.


Why do you think that it links with Matthew 24:29-31?Because it's worded very similarly to the following verse:

Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Do you think the two verses above are not directly related? I think it's obvious that they are. When will He "come in the glory of his Father with his angels" to "reward every man according to his works"? After "the tribulation of those days", right? We know He comes with His angels after the tribulation because that is what we see taught in Matt 24:29-31 and then the judgment takes place at that time as we can see in Matt 25:31-46.

Also, there is only one future coming of Christ, not two, and Rev 22:12 refers to His coming and Matt 24:29-31 teaches that His coming will occur "after the tribulation of those days". If Rev 22:12 isn't fulfilled after the tribulation then when do you think it will be fulfilled? And why would you not relate it to Matt 16:27 (as well as Matt 24:29-31 and Matt 25:31-46)?


I believe everyone will receive rewards based of their works they did here on this earth. The Church, or those who are caught up(1Thes4) and also the killed saints(Rev 6) will get their rewards in heaven.When? Where does it indicate that they receive any rewards before the second coming of Christ?


I believe this because of their white robes which is the righteous acts of the saints.But it's not literal robes. How are you concluding that having the robes means they've been rewarded? The symbolism of them receiving the white robes simply means that they are deemed to have been made clean and to be in right standing with God. It has nothing to do with rewards.


Do you believe they get their white robes before or after receiving their rewards?For one thing the white robes aren't literal robes so what does receiving the white robes represent? If the white robes are the same as the fine linen of Rev 19 then they simply represent the righteousness of the saints and have nothing to do with the receiving of rewards. The rewards based on works aren't given until the second coming of Christ (Rev 22:12).


Christ comes for His bride... they receive their rewords in heaven. At the Second Coming, Christ will judge those as to their entrance into he Millennial Kingdom. The saved alone shall enter (Matt 25:31-46).It is not until the second coming that anyone will be rewarded/judged for their works (Matt 16:27, Rev 22:12, Matt 25:31-46, Rev 20:11-15, etc.).

Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

These say that "every man" will be rewarded/judged according to his works at the second coming of Christ. You somehow have some people being rewarded before then but that contradicts what verses like these say.

thedee
Sep 30th 2011, 08:10 PM
When? Where does it indicate that they receive any rewards before the second coming of Christ?

The white robes are the righteous acts of the saints. Would this not mean they have been rewarded?


But it's not literal robes. How are you concluding that having the robes means they've been rewarded? The symbolism of them receiving the white robes simply means that they are deemed to have been made clean and to be in right standing with God. It has nothing to do with rewards.

The robes is the righteous ACTS of the saint. What is an act? Is that something we do? We are not saved based of our works so it must be the works that they are rewarded for?


It is not until the second coming that anyone will be rewarded/judged for their works (Matt 16:27, Rev 22:12, Matt 25:31-46, Rev 20:11-15, etc.).

Then your understanding of the white robes is totally different than mine.

John146
Sep 30th 2011, 08:14 PM
The white robes are the righteous acts of the saints. Would this not mean they have been rewarded?No. How are you coming to that conclusion?


The robes is the righteous ACTS of the saint. What is an act? Is that something we do? We are not saved based of our works so it must be the works that they are rewarded for?If the robes are righteous acts of the saints then that is what they symbolically represent, not rewards. Righteous acts and rewards aren't the same thing.


Then your understanding of the white robes is totally different than mine.I think that's been clear for some time now already. Any thoughts on the rest of what I said in post #179?

thedee
Sep 30th 2011, 08:21 PM
No. How are you coming to that conclusion?

It is the RIGHTEOUS ACTS OF THE SAINTS. what does that mean to you?


Righteous acts and rewards aren't the same thing.

The rewards shows their righteous acts.


Any thoughts on the rest of what I said in post #179?

All believers will be awarded. I believe this is white the white robes represent.... Post #178 I say a bit more on the timing of the rewards

thedee
Sep 30th 2011, 08:35 PM
Eric,
I also want to make another suggestion as far as the rewards. When we read Revelation 4:4 it says:
"Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads."

I am under the impression that the 24 elders represent the Church or the redeemed of both old and new testatment. As we see here they have their white robes and their golden crowns. This tells me they are saints who have been judged and rewarded.

What say you?

John146
Sep 30th 2011, 08:54 PM
It is the RIGHTEOUS ACTS OF THE SAINTS. what does that mean to you?It means the righteous acts of the saints. It certainly doesn't mean rewards.


The rewards shows their righteous acts.What rewards are you referring to exactly?


All believers will be awarded. I believe this is white the white robes represent....No, the white robes or fine linen represents the righteousness of the saints. That's not the same as rewards. I showed with scripture that people won't be rewarded until the second coming of Christ so if you don't want to accept that I can't help that.

Also, how is this a response to the things I said in post #179? I made very specific points there and you are not responding to those points with specific responses for some reason.

John146
Sep 30th 2011, 09:03 PM
Eric,
I also want to make another suggestion as far as the rewards. When we read Revelation 4:4 it says:
"Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads."

I am under the impression that the 24 elders represent the Church or the redeemed of both old and new testatment. As we see here they have their white robes and their golden crowns. This tells me they are saints who have been judged and rewarded.

What say you?First of all, I would say that I don't understand why you would be so incredulous about me believing that the two witnesses symbolize the church when you believe that the 24 elders symbolize the church. How do you explain that? Anyway, I will answer your question if you answer my questions from post #179 more specifically. I answered your question there as to why I believe Rev 22:12 refers to the second coming of Christ after the tribulation so what do you think about what I said? If you answer that then I will answer your question as well.

thedee
Oct 1st 2011, 03:07 AM
What rewards are you referring to exactly?

1 Corinthians 3


No, the white robes or fine linen represents the righteousness of the saints.

The Righteous ACTS of the saints. An "act" is something you do. We are rewarded on the things we do for the cause of Christ here on this earth.


I showed with scripture that people won't be rewarded until the second coming of Christ so if you don't want to accept that I can't help that.

And I responded to that.


Also, how is this a response to the things I said in post #179? I made very specific points there and you are not responding to those points with specific responses for some reason.

Ummm, which point?

thedee
Oct 1st 2011, 03:09 AM
First of all, I would say that I don't understand why you would be so incredulous about me believing that the two witnesses symbolize the church when you believe that the 24 elders symbolize the church.

I was being that way because awhile back you first thought I was nuts believing that Rev 4:1 was the Rapture point. I remember you telling me "it doesn't say that". Well, guess what. It doesn't say that for the 2 witnesses either.

Revelation 4:1 fits the outline of Revelation 1:19 perfectly. AFTER THESE THINGS.

After the Church is caught up the tribulation will begin AFTER THIS.

John146
Oct 3rd 2011, 06:12 PM
The Righteous ACTS of the saints. An "act" is something you do. We are rewarded on the things we do for the cause of Christ here on this earth.Rewards for works will not happen until the second coming of Christ (Matt 16:27, Rev 22:12, Matt 25:31-46).


Ummm, which point?You had said this:
Why do you think that it (Rev 22:12) links with Matthew 24:29-31?And I responded by saying this:

Because it's worded very similarly to the following verse:

Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Do you think the two verses above are not directly related? I think it's obvious that they are. When will He "come in the glory of his Father with his angels" to "reward every man according to his works"? After "the tribulation of those days", right? We know He comes with His angels after the tribulation because that is what we see taught in Matt 24:29-31 and then the judgment takes place at that time as we can see in Matt 25:31-46.

Also, there is only one future coming of Christ, not two, and Rev 22:12 refers to His coming and Matt 24:29-31 teaches that His coming will occur "after the tribulation of those days". If Rev 22:12 isn't fulfilled after the tribulation then when do you think it will be fulfilled? And why would you not relate it to Matt 16:27 (as well as Matt 24:29-31 and Matt 25:31-46)?

So, what are your thoughts about what I said above?

John146
Oct 3rd 2011, 06:22 PM
I was being that way because awhile back you first thought I was nuts believing that Rev 4:1 was the Rapture point. I remember you telling me "it doesn't say that". Well, guess what. It doesn't say that for the 2 witnesses either.There's a big difference between Rev 4:1 and Rev 11:11-12, though. In Rev 4:1 it's not talking about someone being dead and then being resurrected and literally caught up towards heaven. But that is what is portrayed in Rev 11:11-12 and that is much more like 1 Thess 4:16-17 than Rev 4:1. Rev 4:1 is about John being shown a vision of heaven and not him bodily being caught up towards heaven.


Revelation 4:1 fits the outline of Revelation 1:19 perfectly. AFTER THESE THINGS.I'm not seeing that at all. It's not as if everything written from Rev 4:1 on is not yet fulfilled. The birth of Christ and His ascension is referred to in Rev 12.


After the Church is caught up the tribulation will begin AFTER THIS.Except that isn't taught anywhere in scripture.

Diggindeeper
Oct 3rd 2011, 06:37 PM
Posted by John 146
What rewards are you referring to exactly?



1 Corinthians 3


I just now read 1 Corinthians chapter 3 (again), and I don't find any 'rewards' there! The only thing that comes even remotely neat to 'rewards' is the part about works will be burned, but the man might barely be saved.

That goes right along with what Peter said here:
1 Peter 4:17-18
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

thedee
Oct 3rd 2011, 08:39 PM
I just now read 1 Corinthians chapter 3 (again), and I don't find any 'rewards' there! The only thing that comes even remotely neat to 'rewards' is the part about works will be burned, but the man might barely be saved.

That goes right along with what Peter said here:
1 Peter 4:17-18
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

I think you need to read it again:

"Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor." 1 Cor 3:8

Diggindeeper
Oct 3rd 2011, 10:20 PM
But...what rewards might that be???

thedee
Oct 4th 2011, 03:33 AM
Rewards for works will not happen until the second coming of Christ (Matt 16:27, Rev 22:12, Matt 25:31-46).

I want to try and make a point on why I think the Church is in heaven and they receive their rewards in heaven prior to the Second Coming.

If we look at Revelation 4:4 it says:
"Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads."

I want to make out 3 points here:
1) They are sitting on thrones
"To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." - Rev 3:21

2) clothed in white robes
"And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." - Rev 1:8

3) crowns on head
"Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown." - 1 Cor 9:24-25
"Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing." - 2 Tim 4:8

All three points above are characteristics of believers. That is why I believe the 24 elders represent the Church. Elders are part of the Church. As Peter says:
"The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed:" - 1 Peter 5:1


Because it's worded very similarly to the following verse:

Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Do you think the two verses above are not directly related? I think it's obvious that they are. When will He "come in the glory of his Father with his angels" to "reward every man according to his works"? After "the tribulation of those days", right? We know He comes with His angels after the tribulation because that is what we see taught in Matt 24:29-31 and then the judgment takes place at that time as we can see in Matt 25:31-46.

Also, there is only one future coming of Christ, not two, and Rev 22:12 refers to His coming and Matt 24:29-31 teaches that His coming will occur "after the tribulation of those days". If Rev 22:12 isn't fulfilled after the tribulation then when do you think it will be fulfilled? And why would you not relate it to Matt 16:27 (as well as Matt 24:29-31 and Matt 25:31-46)?

So, what are your thoughts about what I said above?

As I said in post #178:
Christ comes for His bride... they receive their rewords in heaven. At the Second Coming, Christ will judge those as to their entrance into he Millennial Kingdom. The saved alone shall enter (Matt 25:31-46).

I see no reason why at the Second Coming Christ can't bring His rewards with Him but at the same time those returning with Him from heaven already have received their rewards. As I stated above we see the individuals with white robes and crowns on their heads. they are also sitting on thrones.

thedee
Oct 4th 2011, 03:39 AM
There's a big difference between Rev 4:1 and Rev 11:11-12, though. In Rev 4:1 it's not talking about someone being dead and then being resurrected and literally caught up towards heaven. But that is what is portrayed in Rev 11:11-12 and that is much more like 1 Thess 4:16-17 than Rev 4:1. Rev 4:1 is about John being shown a vision of heaven and not him bodily being caught up towards heaven.

I'm not seeing that at all. It's not as if everything written from Rev 4:1 on is not yet fulfilled. The birth of Christ and His ascension is referred to in Rev 12.

Except that isn't taught anywhere in scripture.

Yes this is a heavenly scene as you correctly stated. And if you look at post #193 I explain why I believe the 24 elders are the Church. When John said in Revelation 4:1 "after these things" what on earth do you think he was referring to? After what?

I believe the 2 witnesses is not the Church and your timing is off if you believe the 2 witnesses are resurrected at the end of the tribulation period. It appears according to Revelation 11 they are resurrected in the midst of the 7 year period. I get this by read Rev 11:12-14.

Diggindeeper
Oct 4th 2011, 04:21 AM
You know, more and more I see this 'Millennial' kingdom theory has more and more people blinded than I used to think!

THAT is why they cannot believe that the kingdom of Christ is forever more. They just cannot see it any other way, and that in itself has blinded people SO much they may never be able to get past it and see it as anything but a 'one thousand year reign', where THEY will be ruling and reigning with literal crowns on their heads.

divaD
Oct 4th 2011, 02:37 PM
You know, more and more I see this 'Millennial' kingdom theory has more and more people blinded than I used to think!

THAT is why they cannot believe that the kingdom of Christ is forever more. They just cannot see it any other way, and that in itself has blinded people SO much they may never be able to get past it and see it as anything but a 'one thousand year reign', where THEY will be ruling and reigning with literal crowns on their heads.




Perhaps this may be true of some, but not me. This future 1000 years is only used as a measurement of time, so that one can know that satan has been loosed, and that the rest of the dead live again, and not that we only reign 1000 years. We reign forever, just like the Scriptures indicate.

Like I've pointed out in the past, portions of Isaiah 24 appears to be parallel to portions of Revelation 20.

Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

In Isaiah 24, there are two periods of time in view. So that means that verse 21 would have to occur in one of these two periods of time. We see the same thing In Rev 20..two periods of time, the 1000 years itself, and what occurs at it's conclusion.

The two periods of time in Isaiah 24:

Isaiah 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

The events in Isaiah 24:21, this would occur when they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, according to Isaiah 24:22.

Ironically, we see something similar in Rev 20.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


I would think that satan might include the devil and his angels, thus explaining the they in Isaiah 24:21. We already saw the kings of the earth punishished in Rev 19, which would also establish the time frame in Isaiah 24:21, in relation to the kings of the earth being punished.

But according to Isaiah 24 and Rev 20, that is not the end of it. There is still more.

Isaiah 24:22....and after many days shall they be visited.
Revelation 20:3....and after that he must be loosed a little season.


I fully realize that any nonpremil is going to reject this as Scripture interpreting Scripture, but even so, until someone can provide a better explanation of Isaiah 24, then I'm going to continue believing that it's related to Rev 20. The major part is this. If even non premils see it also being related to Rev 20, yet see the 1000 years being the present time, then how does that one explain Isaiah 24:21? It either has to occur at the beginning of the 1000 years, or at the end of it? If at the beginning, then in what way did this transpire some 2000 years ago? And if at the end of it, how does one then explain Isaiah 24:22, since everyone of these should be in the LOF, and not gathered in a pit to be visited later.

John146
Oct 4th 2011, 04:50 PM
I want to try and make a point on why I think the Church is in heaven and they receive their rewards in heaven prior to the Second Coming.

If we look at Revelation 4:4 it says:
"Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads."

I want to make out 3 points here:
1) They are sitting on thrones
"To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." - Rev 3:21

2) clothed in white robes
"And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." - Rev 1:8

3) crowns on head
"Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown." - 1 Cor 9:24-25
"Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing." - 2 Tim 4:8

All three points above are characteristics of believers. That is why I believe the 24 elders represent the Church. Elders are part of the Church. As Peter says:
"The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed:" - 1 Peter 5:1



As I said in post #178:
Christ comes for His bride... they receive their rewords in heaven. At the Second Coming, Christ will judge those as to their entrance into he Millennial Kingdom. The saved alone shall enter (Matt 25:31-46).

I see no reason why at the Second Coming Christ can't bring His rewards with Him but at the same time those returning with Him from heaven already have received their rewards. As I stated above we see the individuals with white robes and crowns on their heads. they are also sitting on thrones.At least you're trying to back up your view with scripture but I simply disagree with your conclusions. Not much more I can say about it that I haven't already said. We each have given our reasoning for what we believe and we still disagree so we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue at this point. When it comes to people being rewarded/judged for their works all I see scripture teaching is that it will occur when Christ returns.

John146
Oct 4th 2011, 05:15 PM
Yes this is a heavenly scene as you correctly stated. And if you look at post #193 I explain why I believe the 24 elders are the Church. When John said in Revelation 4:1 "after these things" what on earth do you think he was referring to? After what?I believe you are mistaken in thinking that John was referring to things that would occur after what he been speaking about up to that point occurred. I don't know how many times I have to point out that the book of Revelation is not all chronological. I believe when John said "After this, I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven" he was simply writing about what he saw in a vision after what he had seen before that. He wasn't giving a chronological order of events there. He was only writing about things in the order he saw them, not the chronological order of events. He didn't say "after these things are finished, here is what happens next..." but that's how you read it. Instead, I believe he was saying in effect "after I saw these things I just wrote about I then saw a door opened in heaven...".

At the end of Rev 11 he saw the seventh trumpet and the things that go with that but then in Rev 12 he saw a symbolic depiction of the birth and ascension of Christ, so you can't assume that everything is chronological from the beginning of Revelation to the end.


I believe the 2 witnesses is not the Church and your timing is off if you believe the 2 witnesses are resurrected at the end of the tribulation period. It appears according to Revelation 11 they are resurrected in the midst of the 7 year period. I get this by read Rev 11:12-14.You get that by assuming that Rev 11:12-14 is part of the description of the sixth trumpet but, as I've said, I believe Rev 10:1-11:13 is a parenthetical section rather than something that describes what happens chronologically after the end of Rev 9. As far as the order of events is concerned, I believe Rev 11:14 picks up where the end of Rev 9 left off. The sixth trumpet/second woe is described in Rev 9:13-21.

thedee
Oct 4th 2011, 05:49 PM
At least you're trying to back up your view with scripture but I simply disagree with your conclusions. Not much more I can say about it that I haven't already said. We each have given our reasoning for what we believe and we still disagree so we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue at this point. When it comes to people being rewarded/judged for their works all I see scripture teaching is that it will occur when Christ returns.

Who do you think the 24 elders are and what is the meaning of the crowns, white robes, and thrones?

John146
Oct 4th 2011, 08:08 PM
Who do you think the 24 elders are and what is the meaning of the crowns, white robes, and thrones?First of all, the text doesn't specifically say so we are left to speculate. It's possible that they are heavenly beings of some kind just as the four beasts that are usually mentioned any time the 24 elders are mentioned seem to be referring to heavenly creatures of some kind. The other possibility I see is that it could be referring to the 12 disciples and 12 OT prophets as well. I say that because of what Jesus told His apostles:

Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus said this specifically in regards to the disciples so it seems possible that the 24 elders and thrones could be referring to 24 literal thrones (in other words, the number 24 would be literal in that case rather than symbolic). But, whoever the 24 elders are, they are differentiated from the church as a whole so I can't agree that the reference to the 24 elders is a symbolic reference to the church as a whole.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Can you see here that the four beasts and the 24 elders are differentiated from the "saints"? Wouldn't the saints be living believers who are part of the church? I would think so, so if the 24 elders symbolically represented the church then what about the saints who were praying? I see the 24 elders being differentiated from the saints in Rev 11:16-18 and Rev 19:1-4 as well. So, if the 24 elders symbolically represented the church then it couldn't be the church as a whole because it refers to living saints separately from them. In that case they would represent the souls of the dead in Christ but not those who are still physically alive.

You asked what is the meaning of the crowns, white robes and thrones? I do not believe any of those things are literal and do not see those things as being rewards but instead they symbolize the authority that the 24 elders have. We can see from Rev 19:7-8 that the fine linen is not a reward, but rather symbolically represents something, which in that case is the righteousness of the saints (or righteous acts of the saints, however you see it). Righteousness or righteous acts are not the same thing as rewards. Scripture tells us when believers will be rewarded - at the second coming of Christ (Matt 16:27, Rev 22:12, Matt 25:31-46).

By the way, there are much easier and more clear ways of supporting a doctrine than this. The identity of the 24 elders is highly debatable and definitely should not be used as part of your main evidence to support your doctrine (not saying you're doing that, but just making the point).

thedee
Oct 4th 2011, 08:15 PM
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Can you see here that the four beasts and the 24 elders are differentiated from the "saints"?

Not necessarily. This could be linked to Rev 6:10. There will be believers alive and on the earth during the tribulation period. The 24 elders I believe represent the Church....


Wouldn't the saints be living believers who are part of the church? I would think so, so if the 24 elders symbolically represented the church then what about the saints who were praying?

Those alive during the tribulation period.

John146
Oct 4th 2011, 08:36 PM
Not necessarily. This could be linked to Rev 6:10. There will be believers alive and on the earth during the tribulation period. The 24 elders I believe represent the Church....

Those alive during the tribulation period.This is the part of your beliefs that bothers me the most. I'm speaking of your denial that people who would have put their faith in Christ and have been saved the same way you and I have been during a future tribulation period would not be part of the church. Sorry, but everyone who Christ died for is part of the church and that would include anyone saved during a future tribulation period.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Did Christ give Himself for the "believers alive and on the earth during the tribulation period"? If so then according to this verse they would be part of the church.

Diggindeeper
Oct 4th 2011, 10:30 PM
First of all, the text doesn't specifically say so we are left to speculate. It's possible that they are heavenly beings of some kind just as the four beasts that are usually mentioned any time the 24 elders are mentioned seem to be referring to heavenly creatures of some kind. The other possibility I see is that it could be referring to the 12 disciples and 12 OT prophets as well. I say that because of what Jesus told His apostles:

Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus said this specifically in regards to the disciples so it seems possible that the 24 elders and thrones could be referring to 24 literal thrones (in other words, the number 24 would be literal in that case rather than symbolic). But, whoever the 24 elders are, they are differentiated from the church as a whole so I can't agree that the reference to the 24 elders is a symbolic reference to the church as a whole.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Can you see here that the four beasts and the 24 elders are differentiated from the "saints"? Wouldn't the saints be living believers who are part of the church? I would think so, so if the 24 elders symbolically represented the church then what about the saints who were praying? I see the 24 elders being differentiated from the saints in Rev 11:16-18 and Rev 19:1-4 as well. So, if the 24 elders symbolically represented the church then it couldn't be the church as a whole because it refers to living saints separately from them. In that case they would represent the souls of the dead in Christ but not those who are still physically alive.

You asked what is the meaning of the crowns, white robes and thrones? I do not believe any of those things are literal and do not see those things as being rewards but instead they symbolize the authority that the 24 elders have. We can see from Rev 19:7-8 that the fine linen is not a reward, but rather symbolically represents something, which in that case is the righteousness of the saints (or righteous acts of the saints, however you see it). Righteousness or righteous acts are not the same thing as rewards. Scripture tells us when believers will be rewarded - at the second coming of Christ (Matt 16:27, Rev 22:12, Matt 25:31-46).

By the way, there are much easier and more clear ways of supporting a doctrine than this. The identity of the 24 elders is highly debatable and definitely should not be used as part of your main evidence to support your doctrine (not saying you're doing that, but just making the point).

I tend to think it is significant that the twelve tribes are mentioned as part of the 'gates' that make up New Jerusalem and it is built on the 'foundation' of the 12 apostles, all of whom went to their deaths proclaiming the Word, (martyred, with the possible exception of Apostle John). The gates and foundation of New Jerusalem must be places of high honor, since they are NAMED for these men!

This does seem to somewhat give credence to those prophets of old and the 12 apostles of Jesus as possibilities for being the 24 elders.

Rev. 21:10-14

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

thedee
Oct 5th 2011, 12:31 AM
This is the part of your beliefs that bothers me the most. I'm speaking of your denial that people who would have put their faith in Christ and have been saved the same way you and I have been during a future tribulation period would not be part of the church. Sorry, but everyone who Christ died for is part of the church and that would include anyone saved during a future tribulation period.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Did Christ give Himself for the "believers alive and on the earth during the tribulation period"? If so then according to this verse they would be part of the church.

What really bothers me is if you would of read what I have been saying you wouldn't think I believe this. I did not say they were not part of the Church. As I tried very hard prior to explain that those in Revelation 6 who were killed I believe to be part of those we see in Revelation 19 clothed in fine linen.

An elder in scripture are people. I believe these 24 elders represent the entire church. We can see that an elder in the new testament on what their role is in the Church.