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Enoch365
Aug 5th 2008, 02:12 AM
The term “Charismatic” derives from the Greek word
charismata meaning gifts and particularly spiritual gifts.

http://www.suscopts.org/messages/lectures/pneumlecture4.pdf

godsgirl
Aug 5th 2008, 02:15 AM
I believe in the Baptism in the Holy Spirit-and speak in tongues-and even have given messages in tongues in the church service-but I am not Charismatic-I'm a Pentecostal Christian. :pp:pp

Enoch365
Aug 5th 2008, 02:22 AM
How important are Signs & Wonders?

• St. Paul listed the fruit of the Holy Spirit in his Epistle to the Galatians, he said, “But the fruit of the
Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control”
(Gal 5:22,23). These virtues are more important for our salvation than signs and wonders because
many have performed signs and wonders and yet lost their eternal life as our Lord said, “Many will
say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your
name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you;
depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’” (Mt 7:22,23)

• When the disciples rejoiced that they were performing miracles and that the demons are subject to
them, our Lord said to them, “do not rejoice in this ... but rather rejoice because your names are
written in heaven” (Lk 10:20)

• Moreover, pride may be associated with signs and wonders; therefore, St. Paul was given a physical
infirmity lest he should be exalted by the abundance of the revelations (2 Cor 12:7)

• St. Paul said, “The coming of the lawless one [the antichrist] is according to the working of Satan,
with all power, signs, and lying wonders ...” (2 Thess 2:9) thus those who are seeking signs are more
vulnerable to be deceived.

merjorg
Aug 5th 2008, 03:18 PM
I agree that it's not necessary for salvation.
I agree that there is confusion about what it is good for.
I agree that it could potentially cause pride - just as any other spiritual gift could.
I agree that not all Christians speak in tongues.
Maybe it will "cease" one day.
I speak in tongues and it has improved my prayer life in an awesome way. It has edified me personally. I have translated the tongue of others for the edification of the church. Yeah, I don't have all the answers either. But, these things I know.

In love.............
;)

Friend of I AM
Aug 5th 2008, 03:40 PM
E How important are Signs & Wonders?

• St. Paul listed the fruit of the Holy Spirit in his Epistle to the Galatians, he said, “But the fruit of the
Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control”
(Gal 5:22,23). These virtues are more important for our salvation than signs and wonders because
many have performed signs and wonders and yet lost their eternal life as our Lord said, “Many will
say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your
name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you;
depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’” (Mt 7:22,23)

• When the disciples rejoiced that they were performing miracles and that the demons are subject to
them, our Lord said to them, “do not rejoice in this ... but rather rejoice because your names are
written in heaven” (Lk 10:20)

• Moreover, pride may be associated with signs and wonders; therefore, St. Paul was given a physical
infirmity lest he should be exalted by the abundance of the revelations (2 Cor 12:7)

• St. Paul said, “The coming of the lawless one [the antichrist] is according to the working of Satan,
with all power, signs, and lying wonders ...” (2 Thess 2:9) thus those who are seeking signs are more
vulnerable to be deceived.

Good points. Due to the revelations God had given him, Paul actually had to pray to God himself that he wouldn't become too boastful on the path. As you stated, more important than the gifts are our attitudes/fruits of the spirit during the walk.

David Taylor
Aug 5th 2008, 09:01 PM
I believe in the Baptism in the Holy Spirit-and speak in tongues-and even have given messages in tongues in the church service


Just wondering.
In those church services, were all the people present English speaking people; or did the audience contain non-English speaking people whom you spoke the message to them in their own tongue?

godsgirl
Aug 5th 2008, 10:18 PM
Just wondering.
In those church services, were all the people present English speaking people; or did the audience contain non-English speaking people whom you spoke the message to them in their own tongue?

Yep, they were all English speaking people and no, I didn't speak the message in their own tongue.

For he who speaks in a tongue, does not speak to man but to God--indeed no one understands.

That's why the gift of interpretation is needed.

tongues + interpretation. They go together in the church.:)

godsgirl
Aug 5th 2008, 10:19 PM
I agree that it's not necessary for salvation.
I agree that there is confusion about what it is good for.
I agree that it could potentially cause pride - just as any other spiritual gift could.
I agree that not all Christians speak in tongues.
Maybe it will "cease" one day.
I speak in tongues and it has improved my prayer life in an awesome way. It has edified me personally. I have translated the tongue of others for the edification of the church. Yeah, I don't have all the answers either. But, these things I know.

In love.............
;)

Me too!:) 'Cept I have not been used in the gift of interpretation-at least not yet-I'm praying for it though!

timmyb
Aug 5th 2008, 11:02 PM
Keep in mind that Paul said not to forbid speaking in tongues, (1 Corinthians 14:39)

he wished that all of us spoke in tongues... meaning we should all do it (1 Cor 14:5)

and he spoke in tongues more than the Corinthian church. (1 Corinthians 14:18).. which could be called in our day the Corinth First Church of Tongues and Gifts... :P

David Taylor
Aug 6th 2008, 12:30 PM
Yep, they were all English speaking people and no, I didn't speak the message in their own tongue.

For he who speaks in a tongue, does not speak to man but to God--indeed no one understands.

That's why the gift of interpretation is needed.

tongues + interpretation. They go together in the church.:)

Had you spoken in English directly to the English Congregation would they and God understood and been edified?

godsgirl
Aug 6th 2008, 07:02 PM
Had you spoken in English directly to the English Congregation would they and God understood and been edified?


Yes, that's called prophesy. tongues + interpretation = prophesy. The gifts of the Spirit are given "as the Spirit wills" and are not ours to choose. If the Lord wanted to use me in the gift of prophesy-I would have been willing-but He asked me to give a message in tongues and I obeyed.;)

David Taylor
Aug 6th 2008, 09:58 PM
Thanks.
I think you answered all of my questions.

J LANCE
Aug 6th 2008, 10:19 PM
he wished that all of us spoke in tongues... meaning we should all do it (1 Cor 14:5)

The rest of that verse is : ...but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

In my past studies on speaking in tongues, I have come to the conclusion, thru scripture, that it is ok if all that are around understand. If someone is present that doesn't understand, interpretation is a must.

__________

Jim

Enoch365
Aug 6th 2008, 10:20 PM
• Speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit by which the ability to speak a
foreign language without having to be taught it or knowing it beforehand is granted to the person.
This is clear from the Holy Scripture (Acts 2:1-13) in which the events of Pentecost are described,
and at which time this divine gift first appeared.

• The speaking of foreign languages, by the grace of the Holy Spirit, manifested itself, as a miracle, for
the first time in history on the Day of Pentecost; with this divine gift the apostles began to preach in
other languages (15 foreign languages) to the visitors who came to attend the feast at Jerusalem.

• The apostles were simple men of Galilee and it was impossible for them to know another language
except the Aramaic they had learned at home yet the Jews of other nations, who had as their mother
tongue the language of the nation in which they lived, understood everything from the divine
preaching of the apostles who spoke to them with precision in their own language without needing a
translator, and it is in exactly this that the miracle rests.

• Among the listeners of the preaching there were also some that did not understand anything that the
apostles said and subsequently mocked them thinking that they were drunk (Acts 2:13). This group
can be none other than the residents of Jerusalem who did not know other languages except Aramaic.
For these men the preaching of the Apostles was completely unintelligible as it was prophesied, “with
stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people.” (Is 28:11)

• Thus, the residents of Jerusalem did not understand anything from the preaching, unless someone
translated it for them. For just as there is the gift of speaking in tongues (foreign languages), there
also exists the gift of translation. This was given when those listening were only locals ignorant of
other languages, as was, for instance, the case in Corinth for St. Paul said, “if anyone speaks in a
tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. But if there is no
interpreter, let him keep silent in church ...” (1 Cor 14:27,28)

• The gift of translation was itself also miraculous, just as was that of speaking in foreign languages, on
which it was directly dependent as St. Paul said, “unless you utter by the tongue words easy to
understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. There are, it
may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance.
Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks,
and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me ... therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he
may interpret.” (1 Cor 14:9)

• The gift of speaking in foreign languages played a decisive role in evangelism and was manifested
among unbelievers as a sign of the power of God as St. Paul said, “tongues are for a sign, not to those
who believe but to unbelievers” (1 Cor 14:22) for what meaning does it have for someone to speak
about the Lord in a foreign language to someone who was taught, believed and lived his Christian
faith from his childhood?

• The purpose of this gift was for the apostles to be able to spread, through preaching in foreign
languages, the Christian faith to all people and to make the Holy Gospel known throughout the world.
Thus, God did not give the gift of speaking in foreign tongues for all time, until the end of the world
but rather for a special period of time with the aim of making it easier for unbelievers to convert to
Christianity and thus St. Paul prophesied that this gift would cease (1 Cor 13:8).

• In addition to being given for a certain period of time in the Church, the gift of speaking foreign
tongues is not a common gift for all Christians as St. Paul wonders, “Are all apostles? Are all
prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in
tongues? Do all interpret?” (1 Cor 12:29,30)

• The gift of speaking foreign tongues is not the greatest among the gifts of God. St. Paul says that
there are other greater gifts of the Holy Spirit than that of speaking in tongues, “I wish that you all
spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who
speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification” (1 Cor
14:5) and elsewhere he also says, “if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak
with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you
are out of your mind?” (1 Cor 14:23)

• Consequently, the gifts of prophecy, preaching and interpretation of Holy Scripture are much higher
than the gift of speaking in foreign tongues, for with these the believers are built up and benefit much
more than with the gift of linguistics or speaking different languages. Moreover, St. Paul said,
“though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become a sounding
brass or a clanging cymbal” (1 Cor 13:1).

• The gift of speaking in foreign languages is not associated with a state of ecstasy in which the person
may speak inarticulate and incomprehensible human sounds and experience certain movements of the
body such as shaking and falling on the ground, which in fact defeats the very purpose of the gift that
is to communicate the Christian faith to foreign unbelievers.

merjorg
Aug 7th 2008, 12:05 AM
Thanks for the info, Enoch! ;)

Are you just sharing the information with the board in bullet points or are the premises you lay out meant to point to a certain conclusion?

I've never seen anyone "shake and fall to the ground" when speaking in tongues. I guess I've heard of people doing that, but I've certainly never witnessed it.

Interestingly, I have seen this: A young man (early 20's) had been living on the roof of a department store for several months. His wife had his child and then left him behind, refusing to allow him to see his child. He turned to drugs and ended up on the street, completely broken. I was talking to him and he "recommitted" (or perhaps it was an actual salvation) on the spot. Very genuine, very heartfelt, tears coming down his face. I put him up in a hotel and we sat in the room and talked. He began to weep something terrible. I had never in my life seen a man cry like he was crying. I began to pray...it's the only thing I wanted to do or could bring myself to do. As I was praying, he suddenly began to speak in tongues for quite some time. He prayed and prayed in tongues while he continued to weep uncontrollably. No English was coming out...just tongues for several minutes. Now, I don't know much about "signs" and "wonders", I just know what I saw that night was something I could have never scripted.

And you're right...the bible certainly makes it clear that it's not the most important of the gifts.

Thanks again for all the info you shared.

David Taylor
Aug 7th 2008, 01:43 AM
• Speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit by which the ability to speak a foreign language without having to be taught it or knowing it beforehand is granted to the person. This is clear from the Holy Scripture (Acts 2:1-13) in which the events of Pentecost are described, and at which time this divine gift first appeared.

• The speaking of foreign languages, by the grace of the Holy Spirit, manifested itself, as a miracle, for the first time in history on the Day of Pentecost; with this divine gift the apostles began to preach in other languages (15 foreign languages) to the visitors who came to attend the feast at Jerusalem.

-_-SNIP-_-

• The gift of speaking in foreign languages is not associated with a state of ecstasy in which the person may speak inarticulate and incomprehensible human sounds and experience certain movements of the body such as shaking and falling on the ground, which in fact defeats the very purpose of the gift that is to communicate the Christian faith to foreign unbelievers.

Thanks Enoch365, for the well presented examples of :bible:Biblical:bible: tongues.

Very helpful!:pp

azheis
Aug 7th 2008, 03:31 AM
Enoch 365


Most all of your points I would disagree with you on ........with the exception of excerpts from your last point

experience certain movements of the body such as shaking and falling on the ground,

That which is commonly referred to in the charismatic movement as being slain in the spirit, is way off base.
I am a proponent of speaking in tongues and operating the other 8 manifestations of the spirit. ……..but
There is no connection in the Word of God relating tongues with being slain in the spirit. In fact the whole slain in the spirit is a counterfeit. I don’t care what people experience, if it is not in the Word, if it contradicts the truth; it’s off…… I am not saying that God can’t do special things for people at certain times, but God will never do anything that contradicts his Word for “He has magnified his Word above all his name” Psalms 138:2. If He does contradict his Word, we have nothing left

What I read in the Bible is that “all things are to be done decently and in order”.
What is decent and in order about someone blurting out uncontrollably, or running around the church screaming during service, or falling down in the aisles rolling around speaking in tongues. The speaking in tongues could be genuine, but the slain in the spirit is either being faked, or it is coming from a source, other then The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Anytime our freedom of will is infringed upon or overstepped it is from a different source other than the true God, and that is the majority of what I see with the “slain in the spirit”; as the name would indicate.
The true God does not possess, does not control and does not knock people down, if He did you wouldn’t be getting up anytime soon
The god of this world on the other hand does possess, does control, and he does knock people down. He was the angel of light, and he will do whatever it takes to counterfeit the true God, to confuse Gods people, and hinder the movement of Gods word.
The following scriptures are all taken from I Corinthians 14, an area in which Paul by revelation is setting the standard for the proper use of the worship manifestations {tongues interpretation and prophecy} due to the practice of error that had crept into the church.

I Cor 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

I Cor 14:33For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

I Cor 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

I Corinthians 14:32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. Not the other way around.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
God Bless
azheis

godsgirl
Aug 7th 2008, 01:25 PM
I've never seen anyone shake or fall to the ground when speaking in tongues either. or screaming during service, or rolling around speaking in tongues for that matter---

But the Bible says,
He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to man, but to God, INDEED NO ONE UNDERSTANDS...

Tongues are a supernatural manifestation of the Spriit-one of the 9 gifts listed in 1 Corinthians-and when given aloud during church-need the gift of interpretation so that the church can be built up.

Merton
Aug 10th 2008, 09:02 AM
Hi,

One of the reasons for the gift of tongues is so that people will both speak and hear (with interpretation) what the Spirit says to the churches and it is the same Spirit as that of prophesying, which very few pastors ever do.

Preaching by ungifted men is not prophesying.

Men today mostly fake it by study of the scriptures and suppose that what they think, is what Christ is saying to the congregation where only one person speaks, contrary to the instructions of Paul in 1 Cor. ch 14.

It is also common to believe that if one is a believer then one is also baptised with the Holy Spirit.

The evidence of the book of Acts is that all who were baptised with the Holy Spirit exhibited gifts of the Spirit, and that as the disciples of John in Acts chapter 19 were before they received the Holy Spirit, so are many believers today, knowing only the baptism of repentance of John.

In the main the church authorities are scared of it, and of what might happen if their congreagation receives it.

A loss of control of other peoples faith, for one thing.

Control of the church by the flesh is a terrible thing.

Merton.

Firefighter
Aug 11th 2008, 01:41 AM
Tongues 101 -

There are three different types of tongues mentioned in the Bible.

Unknown - 1Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. It is you praying directly to God through the Spirit. This is not to be used in the assembly, period.

Known - Act 2:8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? Supernatural gifting to speak in a known earthly language.

Interpreted - 1Co 14:27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. This is the only one that should be used in church. If there is no interpreter then you should remain silent. Also there should never be more than three messages given in tongues even if they are interpreted.

Textually speaking there is NO DIFFERENCE between the "filling" of the Holy Spirit and the "Baptism" of the Holy Spirit. God does not give you something half way.

You recieve the Holy Spirit at salvation.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

You may or may not recieve the gift of tongues.

1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


Tongues is not the initial evidence of the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit the Fruit of the Spirit is.

ariel_jesus237
Aug 11th 2008, 04:02 AM
Textually speaking there is NO DIFFERENCE between the "filling" of the Holy Spirit and the "Baptism" of the Holy Spirit. God does not give you something half way.

there is, u are only baptized once

and i am still uneasy about the unarticulate "tongues" .... i want to know of people who truly started speaking it out of nowhere and why... and also of that type of tongue being interpreted. how come no one speaks in another tongue anymore and instead speak in the supposed tongue of angels, speaking to God? and if that is the case why do Christians sparingly and spontaneously burst out into tongues out of their own will while praying or when commanded to "pray in the Holy Ghost" by a pastor????

azheis
Aug 11th 2008, 04:52 AM
there is, u are only baptized once

and i am still uneasy about the unarticulate "tongues" .... i want to know of people who truly started speaking it out of nowhere and why... and also of that type of tongue being interpreted. how come no one speaks in another tongue anymore and instead speak in the supposed tongue of angels, speaking to God? and if that is the case why do Christians sparingly and spontaneously burst out into tongues out of their own will while praying or when commanded to "pray in the Holy Ghost" by a pastor????


ariel jesus237

I guess I’ll start with the last question first ………..this is only an opinion or guess .. ….. But I think the reason people blurt out uncontrollable or any of the other, "out of order displays", is because that is what they have been taught or learned from watching others;
I don’t really know.
Over the years I have guided hundreds into speaking in tongues, interpretation and prophecy from the standpoint of the Word, and not a one has ever acted in that manner, so I can only guess it’s a learned acquisition.

Only one time have I been in a group where someone speaking in tongues was understood by another who knew that language, I think she said it was High German.

I don’t know if this fits with that your asking but when I first spoke in tongues {although there is a lot more to this story} I was reading a book called “Power in Praise” {it think}
I had never heard of tongues, nor had I ever heard it done. The book just said you could speak in this language from God, .....just thank Him for it, open your mouth and begin to speak ………….that is exactly what I did. I had no idea what I was doing, but man I was ecstatic. I stopped and started, stopped and started…. for hours, the words just flowed. I was doing the speaking, but the words were nothing I had ever heard. I think I still speak the same language I spoke that night.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
God Bless
azheis

Merton
Aug 11th 2008, 07:48 AM
Hi,


We must not remove scripture from the Bible just to justify our own spiritual position, neither ought we use the immaturity or falseness of others to make the scriptures look unimportant or irrelevent.




1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What then is it? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the mind; I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the mind.


Paul did this and there is no scriptural reason to suggest that others are not or can not do the same if the Lord wills it, though it appears that Paul is saying that the Lord wills all to do so by his saying--


1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh, with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

The underlined words prove that these tongues do not refer to normal speaking of language.

The verse shows that prophesying is direct language from the Spirit equal to tongues with interpretation.

1Co 14:39 So then, brothers, seek eagerly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in languages.

I repeat that verse--

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

Now does it say what it says, or does it not?

Paul said that he would sing with the spirit and he would sing with the mind.

Is that something with which the gospel is preached to the nations in their language? Of course not, and the chapter 14 is speaking of the assemblies--

1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Co 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

Merton.

Merton
Aug 11th 2008, 07:59 AM
Tongues is not the initial evidence of the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit the Fruit of the Spirit is.


The book of acts gives proof that the outward evidence of them receiving the Holy Spirit baptism was ---

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.


Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Act 11:15 `And in my beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit did fall upon them, even as also upon us in the beginning,
Act 11:16 and I remembered the saying of the Lord, how he said, John indeed did baptize with water, and ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit;

Act 19:4 And Paul said, `John, indeed, did baptize with a baptism of reformation, saying to the people that in him who is coming after him they should believe--that is, in the Christ--Jesus;'
Act 19:5 and they, having heard, were baptized--to the name of the Lord Jesus,
Act 19:6 and Paul having laid on them his hands, the Holy Spirit came upon them, they were speaking also with tongues, and prophesying,


Merton.

Firefighter
Aug 11th 2008, 11:43 AM
Merton, In three of the five instances in the scriptures, I agree. But what about the other two? There is no mention of it. We cannot form doctrine from silence. Further, no where in scripture does it say that tongues is the initial evidence.

What if I said that the "Holy Spirit Baptism" required the presence of an apostle? I am sure you would clearly disagree with me, yet a better case could be made for apostolic presence than togues being the initial evidence because an apostle was present all five times scripture records it. If you base your doctrine just because it happens "some of the time" you start down a slippery slope in developing doctrine.





there is, u are only baptized once


Please show me where that is in scripture. "Baptism/baptized" and "Filled/Filling" are used interchangably throughout scripture. Please compare Acts 1 where Jesus foretells of the coming Holy Sprit and Acts 2 at the fulfillment of it. If we maintain a difference in "Filling" and "Baptism" Then there is a big boo boo in scripture, not a concession I am willing to make.

Act 1:5for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."


Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Merton
Aug 11th 2008, 11:51 PM
Merton, In three of the five instances in the scriptures, I agree. But what about the other two? There is no mention of it. We cannot form doctrine from silence. Further, no where in scripture does it say that tongues is the initial evidence.

I did not say that tongues was the only initial evidence either, but silence in two instances does not destroy the testimony of the other three.

Men can also prophesy and speak of the wonderful works of God in praising Him, besides some or many speaking in tongues, it can even include crying for mankind, but nowhere does the Bible show as signs that the initial "evidence" of receiving the Holy Spirit is fruit.

This is how men show the signs of having received it. (Acts 10:46 Acts 19:6)

These signs are manifested by "them", that is they accompany the believers who preach the Gospel by the Spirit, which signs are not among the humanists who excell in the flesh.

Mar 16:16 he who hath believed, and hath been baptized, shall be saved; and he who hath not believed, shall be condemned.
Mar 16:17 `And signs shall accompany those believing these things; in my name demons they shall cast out; with new tongues they shall speak;
Mar 16:18 serpents they shall take up; and if any deadly thing they may drink, it shall not hurt them; on the ailing they shall lay hands, and they shall be well.'



What if I said that the "Holy Spirit Baptism" required the presence of an apostle? I am sure you would clearly disagree with me, yet a better case could be made for apostolic presence than togues being the initial evidence because an apostle was present all five times scripture records it. If you base your doctrine just because it happens "some of the time" you start down a slippery slope in developing doctrine.

I do not develop doctrine. I just discuss scriptures for what is in them.

The initial receiving of the Holy Spirit by the 120 did not have the bodily presence of an Apostle, and the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius's houshold without any apostle laying their hands on them, and he received the Holy Spirit the same as at the beginning with the 120.

The eunuch received the Holy Spirit in the same way as the 3000.


Please show me where that is in scripture. "Baptism/baptized" and "Filled/Filling" are used interchangably throughout scripture. Please compare Acts 1 where Jesus foretells of the coming Holy Sprit and Acts 2 at the fulfillment of it. If we maintain a difference in "Filling" and "Baptism" Then there is a big boo boo in scripture, not a concession I am willing to make.

Act 1:5for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."


Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.




The initial receiving of the Holy Spirit is by its filling the vessel, known as the baptism of/ with/in the Holy Spirit and the filling can be repeated, but not the receiving.--

Joh 7:37 And in the last, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, `If any one doth thirst, let him come unto me and drink;
Joh 7:38 he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'
Joh 7:39 and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
Act 4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
Act 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.



Merton.

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 12:45 AM
The initial receiving of the Holy Spirit by the 120 did not have the bodily presence of an Apostle,

All of them excluding Paul and Judas were there.


and the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius's houshold without any apostle laying their hands on them, and he received the Holy Spirit the same as at the beginning with the 120.


Peter was there. Acts 11 backs BOTH of these up.


The eunuch received the Holy Spirit in the same way as the 3000.


Phillip was there...


Next...

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 12:53 AM
Men can also prophesy and speak of the wonderful works of God in praising Him, besides some or many speaking in tongues, it can even include crying for mankind, but nowhere does the Bible show as signs that the initial "evidence" of receiving the Holy Spirit is fruit.


Initial evidence appears nowhere in scripture. 1 Corinthians 13 makes a real good case for it though...

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love...

Enoch365
Aug 12th 2008, 01:14 AM
Tongue Speaking of today is not the tongue speaking of the Bible.

Compare the genuine in the Bible with the fakes of today!

http://www.bible.ca/su-tongues-today.htm

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 01:31 AM
I agree that a lot of it is fake, but what on earth leads you to believe that it is all fake???

CrunchyChristian
Aug 12th 2008, 01:52 AM
Mark 16:17

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

ariel_jesus237
Aug 12th 2008, 02:03 AM
Merton, In three of the five instances in the scriptures, I agree. But what about the other two? There is no mention of it. We cannot form doctrine from silence. Further, no where in scripture does it say that tongues is the initial evidence.

What if I said that the "Holy Spirit Baptism" required the presence of an apostle? I am sure you would clearly disagree with me, yet a better case could be made for apostolic presence than togues being the initial evidence because an apostle was present all five times scripture records it. If you base your doctrine just because it happens "some of the time" you start down a slippery slope in developing doctrine.





Please show me where that is in scripture. "Baptism/baptized" and "Filled/Filling" are used interchangably throughout scripture. Please compare Acts 1 where Jesus foretells of the coming Holy Sprit and Acts 2 at the fulfillment of it. If we maintain a difference in "Filling" and "Baptism" Then there is a big boo boo in scripture, not a concession I am willing to make.

Act 1:5for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."


Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.


whats the boo boo? what about the occasions after Acts 2:4 where it says they were filled with the Holy Spirit? That obviously isnt the baptism since they were already baptized, you can't be baptized "again" it's a one time thing. i see no discrepancy with none of that

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 02:03 AM
Those of you that keep throwing Mark 16:9-20 out there, please see the debate going on under the baptism thread...

CrunchyChristian
Aug 12th 2008, 05:37 AM
Those of you that keep throwing Mark 16:9-20 out there, please see the debate going on under the baptism thread...

You can see my reply there. But I have to be honest, I probably won't come back to these threads. It's not edifying to me, and I don't see it being edifying to any one else either. I feel as though the Word of God is being used as a weapon to prove one's point and not as a tool to grow in Christ.

May the Lord guide you in your journey towards Him.

godsgirl
Aug 12th 2008, 10:29 AM
The term baptism in the Holy Spirit simply applies to the second work of grace, whereby Jesus baptises believers into the Holy Spirit-

1. A believer is baptised into the body of Christ--by the Holy Sprit=this happens at the moment of salvation
The body is the element of baptism and the Holy Sprit does the baptising

For by one Spirit you were all baptised into one body.

2. A believer is baptised in water by another believer. The water is the element and another believer does the baptising.

3, After salvation we asked to receive the Promise of the Father=the baptism in the Spirit-this takes different "names" in the Word--but speaks of the very same event.

The Holy Spirit is the element and Jesus does the baptiising.

There is coming One who is mightier than I, it is He who baptises with the Holy Spirit.

The first evidence that this baptism has occured is the ability to speak in tongues as the Spriit enables us.
Acts 2:4
Acts 10:46
Acts 19:6

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 11:35 AM
Where does the Bible speak of a "second work of grace?"

Where does the Bible ever mention seeking the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Paul covered the gifts of the Holy Spirit in depth, but not one single time in recorded scripture does Paul encourage anyone to seek the "baptism of the Holy Spirit." Not one time is there any reference to "initial evidence". Not a single time does anyone mention a "second work of grace." I wonder why...

Before (it appears that I am too late) anyone thinks I am anti-charismatic/pentecostal, I am not. I grew up in the largest pentecostal denomination in the world. I believe that ALL the gifts are still for and in use today. We really should look toward the Bible to form our beliefs concerning the gifts otherwise Paul's words will continue to ring true... "Will they not say that ye are mad?"

Firefighter
Aug 12th 2008, 12:36 PM
I feel as though the Word of God is being used as a weapon to prove one's point and not as a tool to grow in Christ.



I am truly sorry you feel that way. The Word of God is being used as a tool to seperate the wheat from the chaff...

Merton
Aug 13th 2008, 12:11 AM
The term baptism in the Holy Spirit simply applies to the second work of grace, whereby Jesus baptises believers into the Holy Spirit-

1. A believer is baptised into the body of Christ--by the Holy Sprit=this happens at the moment of salvation
The body is the element of baptism and the Holy Sprit does the baptising

For by one Spirit you were all baptised into one body.

2. A believer is baptised in water by another believer. The water is the element and another believer does the baptising.

3, After salvation we asked to receive the Promise of the Father=the baptism in the Spirit-this takes different "names" in the Word--but speaks of the very same event.

The Holy Spirit is the element and Jesus does the baptiising.

There is coming One who is mightier than I, it is He who baptises with the Holy Spirit.

The first evidence that this baptism has occured is the ability to speak in tongues as the Spriit enables us.
Acts 2:4
Acts 10:46
Acts 19:6


Saving faith occurs before the baptism in the Holy Spirit, or the OT believers were not saved.

Many believers today have not received the Holy Spirit indwelling yet, and many who have died never will until their resurrection at the last judgment , and many living at the return of Christ will only receive the Holy Spirit indwelling them afterward-(Rev.22:1-2.)

This does not mean that believers who are not yet baptised in the Holy Spirit are not guided by the Holy Spirit. Jesus guided His first disciples to Pentecost.

This is the only way to understand that many believers of the end times remain mortal into the millennium and why many more people are saved ultimately than most of Pentecostal Christianity allows for. They are the sheep at the last judgment of the sheep and the goats.

None of the OT men of faith were members of Christs Body in their lifetime except those who were led to that by Christ Himself when He walked the earth and by His disciples after.

This view explains the thief on the cross riddle, and the poor man (at the gate of the rich man) who is seen in the bosum of Abraham because he desired the crumbs of the rich mans table (the covenant things) which the little dogs usually eat and all of the others of the OT who God accepted, though not being joined to Israel in covenant of circumcision, and a host of other things of scripture like--


Act 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by a holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan coming forth from those borders cried out to Him, saying, Have pity on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is badly demon-possessed.
Mat 15:23 But He did not answer her a word. And coming near, His disciples asked Him, saying, Send her away, for she cries out after us.
Mat 15:24 But answering, He said, I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 But coming, she worshiped Him, saying, Lord, help me!
Mat 15:26 But answering, He said, It is not good to take the bread of the children to throw it to the little dogs.
Mat 15:27 But she said, Yes, Lord; for even the little dogs eat of the crumbs falling from the table of their lords.
Mat 15:28 Then answering, Jesus said to her, O woman, great is your faith; let it be to you as you desire. And her daughter was healed from that hour.
Luk 4:25 But truthfully I say to you, Many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah when the heaven was shut up over three years and six months, when a great famine came on all the land;
Luk 4:26 and yet Elijah was sent to none of them except to Zarephath of Sidon, to a widow woman.
Luk 4:27 And many lepers were in Israel during the time of Elisha the prophet, and none of them was made clean except Naaman the Syrian.
Heb 11:39 And having obtained witness through the faith, these all did not obtain the promise,
Heb 11:40 God having foreseen something better concerning us, that they should not be perfected apart from us.



Merton.

Firefighter
Aug 13th 2008, 02:32 AM
I am not even sure where to start...:o

*Bowing out quietly*

godsgirl
Aug 13th 2008, 02:36 AM
Where does the Bible speak of a "second work of grace?"

Where does the Bible ever mention seeking the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Paul covered the gifts of the Holy Spirit in depth, but not one single time in recorded scripture does Paul encourage anyone to seek the "baptism of the Holy Spirit." Not one time is there any reference to "initial evidence". Not a single time does anyone mention a "second work of grace." I wonder why...

Before (it appears that I am too late) anyone thinks I am anti-charismatic/pentecostal, I am not. I grew up in the largest pentecostal denomination in the world. I believe that ALL the gifts are still for and in use today. We really should look toward the Bible to form our beliefs concerning the gifts otherwise Paul's words will continue to ring true... "Will they not say that ye are mad?"

Actually, Jesus is the One who said to tarry in Jeresalem and wait for the Promise of the Father--- the baptism in the Spirit=Pauls letters were written to Christians-those who already had been baptised in the Spriit. I believe I do get my beliefs soley from the Bible-

As far as the words-second work of grace=you are right-they are not in the Bible-neither is Trinity or Rapture--but the disciples received the indwelling Holy Spirit in John 20 yet were told to wait for the baptism in the Spirit-saved first, then baptised in the Spirit. Same thing with the Ephesians in Acts 19 and the Samaratians in Acts 8.

Firefighter
Aug 13th 2008, 02:41 AM
Make your case. Show me in scripture.

godsgirl
Aug 13th 2008, 05:09 PM
Make your case. Show me in scripture.


1. Jesus' ministry had two distinct goals.


To take away sin = regeneration, being born again. Jn 1:29, “Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”.

To baptise in the Holy Spirit. Jn 1:33 “…this is He who baptises with the Holy Spirit”.



2. The Disciples received two distinct and separate workings of the Holy Spirit.

After Christ's Resurrection. John 20:22, “He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit”. This is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that every believer receives at salvation.

At Pentecost. (An experience subsequent to regeneration.)

Acts 2:4, “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance”. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost.
Jesus made reference in Acts 1:5 that what they received in John 20:22 wasn't the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. That would occur a few days later. What is clear however is that they were already saved.


They belonged to God, Jn 17:9-10.

Their names were written in heaven, Luke 10:20.

They had eternal life, Jn 10:27-29.



3. The Samaritans also had two distinct experiences.

They were saved and baptised in water under Philip's ministry, Acts 8:5-13.

They were baptised in the Holy Spirit under Peter and John's ministry some time later.
(Acts 8:14-17).

merjorg
Aug 13th 2008, 09:45 PM
People who speak in tongues are "fakes"? I was really surprised to see that statement.

I'd like to throw out my own experience with tongues...the truth of how it came to be in my life...and people can come to any conclusions they want. Bash away...call me a fake...whatever you need to do. I'll tell it like it happened and if there's something in Scripture that clearly contradicts my experience, I'd like to see it.

1. Prayed the prayer of salvation. Heart was changed and was hungry to know the Lord.
2. Some time later, got baptized in water.
3. Had some friends who talked about tongues. I thought it was wierd, but I didn't know much about it. I asked them what it was, what it was for, and how someone speaks in tongues. One set of verses that a friend lovingly shared was the following:

1 Cor 14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-28665a)] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-28665b)] 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-28668c)] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues,[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-28668d)] unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

He made it clear that this had nothing to do with salvation and I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that it does. He also made it clear that the gift of prophecy should be desired above other spiritual gifts because it is for the benefit of the church. Nonetheless, that's how he started speaking in tongues was when he genuinely DESIRED it and asked for it. So, I did some reading on my own and began to desire the gifts of the Spirit. I asked another friend one night, "I really desire the gifts of the Spirit. Am I just going to start blurting out tongues all the sudden one day?" She said, "No. Pray to God and tell Him that you desire the gifts. And then, in faith, just open your mouth and start speaking. It might feel wierd or strange and you might not know what you're saying, but just keep going with it. Like Scripture says, you will be edified. So, I went home that night, prayed fervently that I really desired the gifts of the Spirit (because I did, not just to see what happened) - prophecy, tongues, interpretation, and others. I then opened my mouth and began to speak. I purposely was not speaking English, I was just making sure that sound was coming out of my mouth and it just flowed. I could have stopped at any time, but I just continued with it and in no time at all, I knew what I was praying. I felt VERY edified. I felt "filled up". I have heard others describe it like "recharging your batteries" (Verse 4: He who speaks in tongues edifies himself). I did not have a preconceived notion that I would feel so edified. It just happened. To this day, when I pray in tongues:

a) It edifies me tremendously. I really do feel like I'm recharging and re-centering myself.
b) God willing, I am able to understand what I'm praying.
c) As someone else mentioned, it is the SAME tongue/language that I spoke that first night. The sound of what comes out has not changed. It has remained constant and I can get right into it without even thinking twice. There have been times where I've wondered "Why does it always sound the same? What if I changed it up and started to take control of how it sounded or how it came out?" After about 2 seconds of doing that, it's evident that I am no longer speaking in tongues...I'm just blabbering my own thing...and it took effort just to do that. Without thinking, I fall right back into the original tongue. I can stop at any time though. If the phone rings or someone is at the door, I can just stop and come back to it.

The interpretation is not something I could pray on my own - certainly not effortlessly. I'm praying in tongues effortlessly and the interpretation is coming effortlessly...and it's not my own prayer. The interpretation is...how can I say it...perfect...it seems to be completely in line with the Word...in fact it seems like it is the Word. One way I could describe it is, if I've just prayed in English about some personal issues - family, my personal life, etc. and then I go into tongues, the interpretation often shows me or reveals the flaws in my own prayers. Sometimes the interpretation shows me where I've prayed something previously that was not in line with the Word or was otherwise selfish. The interpretation is often focused on others, often focused on them coming to know the Lord. Simply put, the interpretation is ALWAYS less of me, more of Him.

It almost seems like sometimes people hear about someone speaking in tongues and they think that person is getting on their high horse and saying "I'm a great man of God because I speak in tongues." It's not that at all. For those who speak in tongues, it's just a part of every day life and it's a tremendous blessing. It is VERY edifying and a wonderful thing. But, nobody is saying that it makes someone better than anyone else or "more saved" or anything like that. On the contrary, my family doesn't understand tongues, yet when I pray in tongues it's often focused on them and them coming closer to Christ. So, here they are thinking negatively about "tongues", all the while not even realizing that it's a wonderful prayer on their behalf.

It is what it is. That's me story and I'm stickin' to her.............

God bless and in love,
;)

Firefighter
Aug 14th 2008, 02:09 AM
After Christ's Resurrection. John 20:22, “He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit”. This is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that every believer receives at salvation.



See this is where the Greek comes in handy... Because it is the aorist tense, there is no reason to believe that it was to mean "right then" or that they recieved it at that time. The greek certainly allows for Jesus to be referring to a later date. Aorist tense is not indicative of time. One would think that it would be "present active imperitive" if He was referring to right then...

VerticalReality
Aug 14th 2008, 03:29 AM
See this is where the Greek comes in handy... Because it is the aorist tense, there is no reason to believe that it was to mean "right then" or that they recieved it at that time. The greek certainly allows for Jesus to be referring to a later date. Aorist tense is not indicative of time. One would think that it would be "present active imperitive" if He was referring to right then...

Just curious . . .

What do you think the point was for Him to breathe on them before saying that? How strange would it be to walk up to someone for no apparent reason and breathe in their face? Odd much?

Seems to me it would have had to have been for some purpose, and I don't think it was a breath check. :lol:

Firefighter
Aug 14th 2008, 11:25 AM
I have no idea, neither do you. There is no record of them recieving the Holy Spirit, only speculation. We cannot form our theology on speculation. The Greek suggests that he was telling them to prepare to recieve the Holy Spirit. But again, we only have speculation or "best guess".

Brother Mark
Aug 14th 2008, 11:45 AM
See this is where the Greek comes in handy... Because it is the aorist tense, there is no reason to believe that it was to mean "right then" or that they recieved it at that time. The greek certainly allows for Jesus to be referring to a later date. Aorist tense is not indicative of time. One would think that it would be "present active imperitive" if He was referring to right then...

VR already mentioned the breath thing. But there's more evidence too.

Look at what Jesus told Mary after the resurrection.

John 20:17

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
KJV

Then a few days later, he told Thomas this...

John 20:26-27

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
KJV

So we know from this, that Jesus ascended to the Father after he saw Mary but before he saw Thomas.

John 16:7
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
NKJV

IMO, Jesus departed, then sent the helper.

But going further...

We know in Acts 2 that the baptism of the Spirit and filling of the Spirit are one and the same. Yet, if baptism and filling are what occurs when one is saved initially, then why the command in Ephesians to be "filled with the Spirit"? Those folks were already saved.

As for speaking in tongues, Jesus said the evidence of being baptized or filled with the spirit is power.

Acts 1:7-8
7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
NKJV

I see a difference in the Holy Spirit being in me and coming upon me. Anyway, when Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit at the Jordan, he then had power to be the witness of God and never once did he speak in tongues.

Firefighter
Aug 14th 2008, 01:32 PM
We know in Acts 2 that the baptism of the Spirit and filling of the Spirit are one and the same. Yet, if baptism and filling are what occurs when one is saved initially, then why the command in Ephesians to be "filled with the Spirit"? Those folks were already saved.


He was contrasting being drunk on wine, not commanding them to seek the Baptism...

Brother Mark
Aug 14th 2008, 01:37 PM
He was contrasting being drunk on wine, not commanding them to seek the Baptism...

But he was commanding them to be filled. How is it that he was commanding those that already had the holy Spirit to be filled again with the Holy Spirit? BTW, I believe Peter was filled/baptized many times in Acts.

VerticalReality
Aug 14th 2008, 02:14 PM
Good posts, BrotherMark. I agree!

Firefighter
Aug 14th 2008, 02:33 PM
Again, it is first aorist passive subjunctive and is not limited in time but hints of a continual filling, not a one time event.

Brother Mark
Aug 14th 2008, 03:46 PM
Again, it is first aorist passive subjunctive and is not limited in time but hints of a continual filling, not a one time event.


Who suggested it was limited in time? One must be continually filled with the Holy Spirit. But we are not. Hence the command "Be ye filled with the Holy Spirit". There is no need to give a command to something that is continuously happening by default.

VerticalReality
Aug 14th 2008, 03:56 PM
Sometimes I think when folks start with the passive progressive participle pronoun talk they are overanalyzing things just a tad. ;)

poochie
Aug 14th 2008, 10:15 PM
I believe in the Baptism in the Holy Spirit-and speak in tongues-and even have given messages in tongues in the church service-but I am not Charismatic-I'm a Pentecostal Christian. :pp:pp

Just out of curiosity. How do you know that you actually spoke in tongues?

SIG
Aug 14th 2008, 11:49 PM
For those who are saved, I always use the term "Spirit-indwelt" rather than "Spirit-filled." The saved are indwelt and sealed in the Holy Spirit, and always have Him present. But they are not necessarily filled. If we are in the flesh, we quench the Spirit. Or, we can put aside the flesh and be filled. Working out our salvation is all about learning to be filled.

PS: We see no evidence of the Apostles being Spirit-indwelt until Pentecost.

PPS: Merton mentioned 120 touched by the tongues as if flames at Pentecost. What Scriptural evidence is there that more than the 12 Apostles were touched that day? {For the 120 theory, you must assume no break in time between Chapters 1 and 2}.

godsgirl
Aug 15th 2008, 10:53 AM
Actually, yes there is....read John chapter 20. Jesus breathed on them and said, "receive ye the Holy Spirit"--

I do believe that all 120 were in the upper room and all 120 spoke in tongues as the Spirit enabled them-the "break" as you call it isn't indicated at all.

We ARE to keep on being filled-this is true, but scripture shows that there is a "first" time for this-what Jesus called, "the baptism in the Holy Spirit".

Ron Brown
Aug 16th 2008, 06:30 AM
Tongue Speaking of today is not the tongue speaking of the Bible.

Compare the genuine in the Bible with the fakes of today!

http://www.bible.ca/su-tongues-today.htm

This is all true, and I can't get any of my pentecostal brothers and sisters to break down 1 Cor chapter 14 in the Greek, because when you do, it debunks the practice of gibberish, unknown to any man tongues in the 21st century church.

Ron Brown
Aug 16th 2008, 06:43 AM
Just out of curiosity. How do you know that you actually spoke in tongues?

You can't, because it is gibberish words that nobody, including the speaker, understands. If you can't understand what you are saying, you can't say you know it is something glorifying God. I can pray to God in an unknown language "taka taka eskimendola tik tik tik eskibar shamanshesh tik tik eskibarish", and God will not understand me because it is a bunch of gibberish. It's not from the spirit, it's from the flesh. There are no words in the Greek Biblical manuscripts for an unknown language that only God understands. Trust me, you won't find it in the original manuscript languages, because I have spent years looking for it, it's not there.

Unknown languages is not in the Bible, and that's a fact, the Greek proves it. The Greek doers not lie, but English translations sure do.

godsgirl
Aug 16th 2008, 02:42 PM
He who speaks in a tongue, speaks not to man, but to God, indeed no one understands, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Now, if one who speaks in a tongue isn't speaking to or understood by man-then I'm sure it would sound like "gibberish" to you-but the Bible doesn't call it that.

If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful, so what shall I do? I will pray with my mind and I wll pray with my spirit also, I will sing with my mind and I will sing with my understanding also.


If Paul prayed in a tongue and when he did so, his understanding was unfruitful-then I suppose if you heard it you might call it "gibberish" but the Bible doesn't agree.

But you beloved, build yourselves up in your most Holy Faith, praying in the Holy Spirit.

He who speaks in a tongue-edifies himself-that's just another way of agreeing with Jude-build yourself up in your most Holy Faith.

Ron Brown
Aug 16th 2008, 06:57 PM
He who speaks in a tongue, speaks not to man, but to God, indeed no one understands, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Now, if one who speaks in a tongue isn't speaking to or understood by man-then I'm sure it would sound like "gibberish" to you-but the Bible doesn't call it that.

If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful, so what shall I do? I will pray with my mind and I wll pray with my spirit also, I will sing with my mind and I will sing with my understanding also.


If Paul prayed in a tongue and when he did so, his understanding was unfruitful-then I suppose if you heard it you might call it "gibberish" but the Bible doesn't agree.

But you beloved, build yourselves up in your most Holy Faith, praying in the Holy Spirit.

He who speaks in a tongue-edifies himself-that's just another way of agreeing with Jude-build yourself up in your most Holy Faith.

You are still taking these verses out of context because you don't know what the church at Corinth even was. You will never know the proper context of any of Paul's letters, unless you first know about the culture he was writing to at the time.

Corinth was a port city in Greece, where people of all nations and languages gathered and traded goods. Greek was the language spoken by the natives of Corinth, so the primary language spoken in the Corinthian church was Greek. But since it was a port city, new Christian converts from other nations, who spoke other languages were visiting the Corinthian church worship services while on their overseas business trips. These visitors would pray out loud in their foreign languages in the Corinthian church, they would sing out loud in their foreign languages in the Corinthian church, and they would preach out loud in their foreign languages in the Corinthian church, and the 99% Greek audience in the Corinthian church had no idea what these foreigners from other nations were saying, because there was no multi-lingual people in the church to interpret the foreign languages from other countries. So this is why the people from other countries were only understood by God, because the Greek people sure didn't understand them. They were edifying themselves by praising the Lord and then preaching in their foreign languages in the Corinthian church, but the 99% Greek audience was not being edified. This is why Paul said there needed to be multi-lingual people like himself in the Church at Corinth, so that the foreign languages could be interpreted, in order that the entire church be edified, and not just the 1 person who understood the non-Greek language they were speaking.

I will define "tongue" in the Greek one more time for everybody, so they know it does not mean Heavenly language at all.

Tongue in the Greek is "glossa"(noun)- it means:

1) the tongue, a member of the body, and organ of speech

2) a tongue

a)the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations.

So as you can see, the gift of tongues in the Greek is a multi-lingual person, not a person who speaks in unknown Heavenly gibberish languages.

Never trust your feelings or emotions on what the spiritual gifts are, always trust the original Biblical manuscripts for what they say about the spiritual gifts. Human feelings lie, but the original Biblical manuscript languages don't lie.

livingwaters
Aug 17th 2008, 02:56 AM
If you know the Lord, and the Spirit starts to pray to HIM, don't stifle it. Because the Word says, that tongues are prayed in two ways. One, you praying through the Spirit to God; the other you edifying the church and someone interpreting.

If you feel let to pray in the Spririt, just do it!!

When we get to Heaven, we can ask God if he heard the prayers in the Spirit!!! Amen:hug::pp:D

godsgirl
Aug 17th 2008, 10:50 AM
And no matter how well you think you "know the original greek manuscripts"--when Paul said, "no one understands" he knew what he was talking about., and when he said, "my understanding is unfruitful" he knew what he was talking about. And when he said, "I will pray with my mind and I will pray with my spirit also" He knew what he was talking about.

divaD
Aug 17th 2008, 10:39 PM
The gift of speaking in foreign languages is not associated with a state of ecstasy in which the person may speak
inarticulate and incomprehensible human sounds and experience certain movements of the body such as shaking and falling
on the ground,


These are some good points. Let's go back some 2000 yrs when this gift first appeared. What would have happened if those that truly had this gift began speaking to those in a manner like you described above? It doesn't add up does it? There is no way that the apostles could have presented the gospel of Jesus Christ, acting in a manner similar to what you described. The idea was to get the good news of the gospel out despite any language barriers. This was the purpose for the gift of speaking in tongues, the idea was, to surpass any language barriers, via the Holy Spirit, so that those of differing languages could understand one another. Why is it that we see none of this in what's defined as modern day tongues as practiced by Pentecostal and Charismatics?

Merton
Aug 17th 2008, 11:28 PM
VR already mentioned the breath thing. But there's more evidence too.

Look at what Jesus told Mary after the resurrection.

John 20:17

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
KJV

Then a few days later, he told Thomas this...

John 20:26-27

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
KJV

So we know from this, that Jesus ascended to the Father after he saw Mary but before he saw Thomas.

John 16:7
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
NKJV

IMO, Jesus departed, then sent the helper.

But going further...

We know in Acts 2 that the baptism of the Spirit and filling of the Spirit are one and the same. Yet, if baptism and filling are what occurs when one is saved initially, then why the command in Ephesians to be "filled with the Spirit"? Those folks were already saved.

As for speaking in tongues, Jesus said the evidence of being baptized or filled with the spirit is power.

Acts 1:7-8
7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
NKJV

I see a difference in the Holy Spirit being in me and coming upon me. Anyway, when Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit at the Jordan, he then had power to be the witness of God and never once did he speak in tongues.


I think you understand it, except fror the fact that Peter was saved because of His faith in what God had shown him before he received the Holy Spirit indwelling.

It is only an assumption by most that one has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when they first believe.

God was with the believers of the OT times and not in, yet they were saved from Gods wrath through their having faith.

Most believers of today are in that situation no different to the JW's or SDA's.etc.

There is no mention of the Samarian believers receiving the Holy Spirit when they were baptised in water, but God was moving among them until the apostles came down from Jerusalem and prayed for them and they were receiving the Holy Spirit as they were touching them.


"These signs will follow them who believe"

where the "them," is the group.

If these things do not occur among and by members of the group (family) (who are sent,) then neither do they believe. Therefore they are false and the proof that they are false is that they do not preach the apostolic doctrine of salvation as preached by Peter at the first, and neither do they preach the doctrine of Christ of submission, but rather of subservience to themselves, and the using of your resources for their own kingdoms.

In other words they are wolves in sheeps clothing and will tear out your liver and kidneys (spiritually speaking), and even Christians often follow them and do the same, which is the reason for 1 John, 2 John, 3 John , chp,s of Peter and Jude.


Jud 1:3 Having made all haste to write to you about the common salvation, beloved, I had need to write to you to exhort you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints.

Merton.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 12:39 AM
And no matter how well you think you "know the original greek manuscripts"--when Paul said, "no one understands" he knew what he was talking about., and when he said, "my understanding is unfruitful" he knew what he was talking about. And when he said, "I will pray with my mind and I will pray with my spirit also" He knew what he was talking about.

True, and he wasn't talking about unknown gibberish languages that only God understands.;)

Merton
Aug 18th 2008, 02:00 AM
True, and he wasn't talking about unknown gibberish languages that only God understands.;)


I suggest that you have a close listen to some of the African languages.

Sure there are a lot of tryhards about who repeat some sayings or other, but that does not prove in any way that genuine speaking in tongues is in any way false.

One scripture is enough to show that not all tongues speaking is required to be understood by man--

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

However some here want to argue against Gods word when they do not speak in tongues, but if they did then they would understand what it is in the inner man and from whence prophets speak Gods word of salvation when they prophesy.

All manner of prophesying comes from the same place, as for any gift, so that many a preacher who speaks against the gift of tongues, is not a true prophesyer in the church either, but just make his own things up from the flesh.

One can not speak against one gift of the Spirit and think that ones own gift (if any) will not be affected determentally.

I speak in tongues from time to time but mainly sing in praise in tongues after some remarkable event when I have spoken in English to someone of Christ and God has spoken to them through it. I have known when they have received it because of the flow of it in me, but I also know when it has been rejected. (John 7 John 8)

Steven spoke that way to the Sanhedrin and never finished the address, for God saw their response to what HE was saying and gave Steven to say--

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.



Merton.

SIG
Aug 18th 2008, 02:20 AM
Found this article very interesting. It's a long read, but addresses a question I always ask: Why does it seem tongues disappeared for centuries, only to emerge recently?

(A second related question might be: Why are the tongues we see manifested always, or at least almost always, some unintelligible language, rather than a known language?)

http://brothermel.com/tonguesthroughoutchurchhistory.aspx

Brother Mel attempts to answer--but I find his answers flawed. My most serious objections were:

1.He refutes cessationism, and early on, supposes ALL the gifts continued (why not just some of them?)
2. He seems to identify tongues as known languages. He later refers to "genuine tongues" but doesn't exactly define the term.
3. He supposes that manifestations of gifts waned from the Fifth Century (!) on, because the church had become weak or lazy; was God's Spirit not strong enough to prevail? Was man's weakness/doctrine always stronger?
4. And so on.

There is plenty more fodder here for discussion of his observations, if any of you care to discuss.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 02:24 AM
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.





Merton.

Unknown is not in the Greek manuscripts, hence why it's in italics in the KJV Bible. Anything in italics in the KJV bible was added by the translators, and is not in the Greek manuscripts.

The Greek manuscripts are your friend, and will enlighten you to what the spiritual gifts are really all about in 1 Cor chapter 12.

There is no such thing as an unknown to mankind heavenly language according to the original Greek manuscripts.

Do you have authority over the Greek language in which Paul wrote the letter of 1 Corinthians to the church in Corinth? Paul did not write the word "unknown tongues" in any of his letters that he wrote in the Greek. He wrote the word "glossa" which means in the Greek know language. Look at the Greek manuscript languages for yourself, and you will see the truth about the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues in 1 Cor chapter 12.

SIG
Aug 18th 2008, 02:29 AM
Also---

I have not been around a lot of tongues speakers, because I tend to be a sola scriptura type. But:

If I were at a service in which a friend of mine started speaking, say, Navajo, and a native-American visitor there said, "Hey! This guy is speaking Navajo!" and proceeded to translate, and then speak with my friend -- I would be truly impressed, and truly praise God. The thing is--none of the tongue-speaking I've seen falls into this category.

(I was discipled in Amsterdam, by the way, and attended many multi-lingual services. I never saw anyone speak in a known language that had been unfamiliar to them.)

How about you all? Of all the tongues you have experienced or witnessed, how often has it been a known language? If it has been rare, would you care to speculate on why?

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 02:45 AM
Also---

I have not been around a lot of tongues speakers, because I tend to be a sola scriptura type. But:

If I were at a service in which a friend of mine started speaking, say, Navajo, and a native-American visitor there said, "Hey! This guy is speaking Navajo!" and proceeded to translate, and then speak with my friend -- I would be truly impressed, and truly praise God. The thing is--none of the tongue-speaking I've seen falls into this category.

(I was discipled in Amsterdam, by the way, and attended many multi-lingual services. I never saw anyone speak in a known language that had been unfamiliar to them.)

How about you all? Of all the tongues you have experienced or witnessed, how often has it been a known language? If it has been rare, would you care to speculate on why?

I was a member of an Assembly Of God Church for 16 years of my life, and I watched many a person, including my own parents, get caught up in the fleshly unknown gibberish language pentecostal movement. After showing my parents the New Testament scriptures in the original Greek manuscript language, they no longer practice pentecostal tongues. Both my parents had no idea what they were saying when they spoke in pentecostal tongues, because it was not a language from another country, it was nonsense gibberish.

I am very familiar with pentecostal tongues, and the background of it's 20th century church originators. Charles Parham and William Seymour were some messed up dudes.

If you speak in pentecostal tongues, I suggest you research the history of it's origins in the Church. The originator is not the Holy Spirit, it's some messed up and misguided people.

Brother Mark
Aug 18th 2008, 02:45 AM
How about you all? Of all the tongues you have experienced or witnessed, how often has it been a known language? If it has been rare, would you care to speculate on why?

I have a friend of mine that it happened to. He saw some Romanians in our church (a big Baptist church) and was burdened for them. He took them some food to minister to them but found only a little girl that could speak English. He asked them if he could bring a friend the next time he came and they agreed. Well, he brought an elderly lady with him the next time. They spoke through the little girl. Finally, the lady asked if she could pray for them and they agreed. The lady then asked if they minded if she prayed in tongues. They agreed. So she began to pray for them. When she was done, the family was in awe. She had prayed over each of them in their native tongue and had called each family member and blessed them.

My friend was an eye witness to it. That's at least one experience I know about. I am sure there are probably more.

divaD
Aug 18th 2008, 02:53 AM
Unknown is not in the Greek manuscripts, hence why it's in italics in the KJV Bible. Anything in italics in the KJV bible was added by the translators, and is not in the Greek manuscripts.

The Greek manuscripts are your friend, and will enlighten you to what the spiritual gifts are really all about in 1 Cor chapter 12.

There is no such thing as an unknown to mankind heavenly language according to the original Greek manuscripts.

Do you have authority over the Greek language in which Paul wrote the letter of 1 Corinthians to the church in Corinth? Paul did not write the word "unknown tongues" in any of his letters that he wrote in the Greek. He wrote the word "glossa" which means in the Greek know language. Look at the Greek manuscript languages for yourself, and you will see the truth about the gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues in 1 Cor chapter 12.



The thing is, I'm not 100% convinced either way when it comes to the tongues of today.

I have not found one that can actually dispute what 1 Cor 14 seems to be implying...and that is..a heavenly language. Ok, you say that tongues in 1 Cor 14 are defined as known languages. So let's put that to the test and see if it indeed makes sense.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy
2 For he that speaketh in a (known language) speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort
4 He that speaketh in a (known language) edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with (known languages), but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with (known languages), except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with (known languages), what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in a (known language) pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in a (known language), my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


OK I'll stop here for now. I don't want to spam the board with verses that we can each look up. But this should be enough to illustrate the point. Show me how this now makes sense. Personally, I see a whole lot of contradictions.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 03:15 AM
The thing is, I'm not 100% convinced either way when it comes to the tongues of today.

I have not found one that can actually dispute what 1 Cor 14 seems to be implying...and that is..a heavenly language. Ok, you say that tongues in 1 Cor 14 are defined as known languages. So let's put that to the test and see if it indeed makes sense.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy
2 For he that speaketh in a (known language) speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort
4 He that speaketh in a (known language) edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with (known languages), but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with (known languages), except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with (known languages), what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in a (known language) pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in a (known language), my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


OK I'll stop here for now. I don't want to spam the board with verses that we can each look up. But this should be enough to illustrate the point. Show me how this now makes sense. Personally, I see a whole lot of contradictions.

The language is know to the speaker(it's his native tongue) but it's unknown to the audience, because they speak a different language(Greek). Corinth was a port city in Greece, and though 99% of the native members of the Corinthian church spoke Greek, the Christian convert visitors from other countries who were selling and trading goods in the port city of Corinth spoke languages other than Greek when they attended the Corinthian church as visitors. This is why Paul said that they are only understood by God, because the people who spoke only Greek didn't understand them. This is Why Paul told them they need an interpreter when speaking in foreign languages in the Corinthian church, so the Greek speaking members could understand the message. The letters from Paul to the Corinthian church were corrective letters to them specifically(not every church in every country), and it was addressing the Greek speaking port city church's abuse of speaking many different languages from many different countries all at the same time, in the same service, without any order or interpretation to the Greek speaking audience. The Corinthian church was a Greek church, and the corrective letter was written to Greek speaking people, not people who speak in English, Spanish, Russian, Arabic, etc...........

Merton
Aug 18th 2008, 04:26 AM
I was a member of an Assembly Of God Church for 16 years of my life, and I watched many a person, including my own parents, get caught up in the fleshly unknown gibberish language pentecostal movement. After showing my parents the New Testament scriptures in the original Greek manuscript language, they no longer practice pentecostal tongues. Both my parents had no idea what they were saying when they spoke in pentecostal tongues, because it was not a language from another country, it was nonsense gibberish.

I am very familiar with pentecostal tongues, and the background of it's 20th century church originators. Charles Parham and William Seymour were some messed up dudes.

If you speak in pentecostal tongues, I suggest you research the history of it's origins in the Church. The originator is not the Holy Spirit, it's some messed up and misguided people.


None of what you have stated destroys the evidence of the scriptures.

You either believe them or you do not.

1Co 14:2 For the one speaking in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God, for no one hears, but in spirit he speaks mysteries.


Merton.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 04:41 AM
None of what you have stated destroys the evidence of the scriptures.

You either believe them or you do not.

1Co 14:2 For the one speaking in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God, for no one hears, but in spirit he speaks mysteries.


Merton.

Do you study the scriptures in the Greek? Do you understand the context of this scripture you just quoted? It appears you do not, even though I explained the context of Paul's letter to the Corinthian church more then once already?

I know it's hard to get rid of bad habits taught to you in Church, I was taught pentecostal tongues for 16 years of my life as well. Then I started to study the Greek manuscript language, and the truth became clear to me when it comes to the gift of tongues. The truth became clear to my pentecostal family as well. The Greek manuscripts do not lie my friend, but man made doctrine sure does.

SIG
Aug 18th 2008, 05:38 AM
I have a friend of mine that it happened to. He saw some Romanians in our church (a big Baptist church) and was burdened for them. He took them some food to minister to them but found only a little girl that could speak English. He asked them if he could bring a friend the next time he came and they agreed. Well, he brought an elderly lady with him the next time. They spoke through the little girl. Finally, the lady asked if she could pray for them and they agreed. The lady then asked if they minded if she prayed in tongues. They agreed. So she began to pray for them. When she was done, the family was in awe. She had prayed over each of them in their native tongue and had called each family member and blessed them.

My friend was an eye witness to it. That's at least one experience I know about. I am sure there are probably more.

I have no doubt it does happen. But if we consider all the tongues that are displayed, and how often what you described happens......

Merton
Aug 18th 2008, 06:24 AM
Originally Posted by Merton http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1753518#post1753518)
None of what you have stated destroys the evidence of the scriptures.

You either believe them or you do not.

1Co 14:2 For the one speaking in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God, for no one hears, but in spirit he speaks mysteries.


Merton.


Do you study the scriptures in the Greek? Do you understand the context of this scripture you just quoted? It appears you do not, even though I explained the context of Paul's letter to the Corinthian church more then once already?

I know it's hard to get rid of bad habits taught to you in Church, I was taught pentecostal tongues for 16 years of my life as well. Then I started to study the Greek manuscript language, and the truth became clear to me when it comes to the gift of tongues. The truth became clear to my pentecostal family as well. The Greek manuscripts do not lie my friend, but man made doctrine sure does.


Ok, what does this verse say in the greek--

1Co 14:2 For1063 he that speaketh2980 in an tongue1100 speaketh2980 not3756 unto men,444 but235 unto God:2316 for1063 no man3762 understandeth191; howbeit1161 in the spirit4151 he speaketh2980 mysteries.3466

What does this verse say in the greek--

1Co 14:4 He that speaketh2980 in an tongue1100 edifieth3618 himself;1438 but1161 he that prophesieth4395 edifieth3618 the church.1577

What about this one--

1Co 14:5 I(1161) would2309 that ye5209 all3956 spake2980 with tongues,1100 ---

What about this one--



1Co 14:14 For1063 if1437 I pray4336 in an unknown tongue,1100 my3450 spirit4151 prayeth,4336 but1161 my3450 understanding3563 is2076 unfruitful.175
what about this one---

1Co 14:15 What5101 is2076 it then?3767 I will pray4336 with the3588 spirit,4151 and1161 I will pray4336 with the3588 understanding3563 also:2532 I will sing5567 with the3588 spirit,4151 and1161 I will sing5567 with the3588 understanding3563 also.2532

what about this one--

1Co 14:16 Else1893 when1437 thou shalt bless2127 with the3588 spirit,4151 how4459 shall he that occupieth378 the3588 room5117 of the3588 unlearned2399 say2046 Amen281 at1909 thy4674 giving of thanks,2169 seeing1894 he understandeth1492 not3756 what5101 thou sayest?3004

what about this one--

1Co 14:17 For1063 thou4771 verily3303 givest thanks2168 well,2573 but235 the3588 other2087 is not3756 edified.3618

what about this one--

1Co 14:18 I thank2168 my3450 God,2316 I speak2980 with tongues1100 more3123 than ye5216 all:3956

what about this one--

1Co 14:26 How5101 is2076 it then,3767 brethren?80 when3752 ye come together,4905 every one1538 of you5216 hath2192 a psalm,5568 hath2192 a doctrine,1322 hath2192 a tongue,1100 hath2192 a revelation,602 hath2192 an interpretation.2058 Let all things3956 be done1096 unto4314 edifying.3619

what about this one--

1Co 14:39 Wherefore,5620 brethren,80 covet2206 to prophesy,4395 and2532 forbid2967 not3361 to speak2980 with tongues.1100

Merton.

godsgirl
Aug 18th 2008, 10:54 AM
Ron, taking out the word "unknown" doesn't change the meaning-in the greek or otherwise. If the Bible says, 'no one understands" then "no one understands" there is no reason to believe that all tongues are known languages. (of which there are over 5000) I think you and your parents got hoodwinked into believing something that isn't true by someone who not only didn't understand "greek" but didn't understand the Word of God either.

Ron Brown
Aug 18th 2008, 05:37 PM
Ron, taking out the word "unknown" doesn't change the meaning-in the greek or otherwise. If the Bible says, 'no one understands" then "no one understands" there is no reason to believe that all tongues are known languages. (of which there are over 5000) I think you and your parents got hoodwinked into believing something that isn't true by someone who not only didn't understand "greek" but didn't understand the Word of God either.

I know I am beating a dead horse, but here goes one more time.

It is not an unknown language, it is a language unknown to the Greek speaking Corinthian Church audience. The letters Paul wrote to the church at Corinth were to a Greek speaking audience who was having people who didn't speak Greek or couldn't translate their native language into Greek after they prayed, sang, or preached a message in their native non-Greek languages.

The reason the KJV translators added [unknown] in italics, is because the language was unknown to the Corinthians, not to all of mankind.

Every letter Paul wrote in scripture was addressed to a particular person or group of people, and it dealt with a particular circumstance in that person or group of people's Christian walk. If you don't know the basic context of the letter, you will miss the point of the entire letter. If you don't understand the historical and cultural context of the Corinthian church, you will never understand Paul's letters to them in their proper context.

The good news is, this is the last time I will be posting an an unknown tongues thread. :hug: God bless

VerticalReality
Aug 18th 2008, 05:44 PM
I know I am beating a dead horse, but here goes one more time.

It is not an unknown language, it is a language unknown to the Greek speaking Corinthian Church audience. The letters Paul wrote to the church at Corinth were to a Greek speaking audience who was having people who didn't speak Greek or couldn't translate their native language into Greek after they prayed, sang, or preached a message in their native non-Greek languages.

The reason the KJV translators added [unknown] in italics, is because the language was unknown to the Corinthians, not to all of mankind.

Every letter Paul wrote in scripture was addressed to a particular person or group of people, and it dealt with a particular circumstance in that person or group of people's Christian walk. If you don't know the basic context of the letter, you will miss the point of the entire letter. If you don't understand the historical and cultural context of the Corinthian church, you will never understand Paul's letters to them in their proper context.

The good news is, this is the last time I will be posting an an unknown tongues thread. :hug: God bless

I don't think it being a letter written to the Corinthians has much to do with anything considering that Paul states that the one who speaks in tongues does not speak to men but to God. So I don't think any man would understand it, and that would include the Corinthians.

godsgirl
Aug 18th 2008, 09:27 PM
I don't think it being a letter written to the Corinthians has much to do with anything considering that Paul states that the one who speaks in tongues does not speak to men but to God. So I don't think any man would understand it, and that would include the Corinthians.


Exactly! This is why when tongues are spoken as a Spritual Gift-they need to be accompianed by the gift of interpretation so that the church can be built up.

Golden Rule of Interpretation: "Where the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate text clearly indicate otherwise."

Merton
Aug 19th 2008, 12:00 AM
Speaking from my own experience.

Speaking in tongues is a step to prophesying for we are exercised in speaking in the Spirit, which I have become painfully aware that most preachers do not, and their flesh is all over Gods word when they speak it.

Being spiritual is not being mystical spiritual, but just normal for someone born from above.

This idea that all believers are born from above is a falsehood.

At one time in the 50's most everyone who went to church or preached on the radio, never heard of it.

Now since many have now been born again, everyone who believes has, in their opinion.

Do we really believe that GWB or Ron Reagon are born again Christians?

Of course not, that is their problem, they never made it, or they could not kill the farmers of Nicoragua or the believers of Bagdad out of fear or lust for gain.

Does that mean they will go to hell? I do not know, but if I did what they did, then I would.

Receiving the Spirit of Heaven is no small thing, for one in the Kingdom of God is greater than John the Baptist in Gods sight, because His own Spirit dwells in them, and it is He who often speaks what His Son says to us, and what He (our Father) says to the world through us.

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My Word, and My Father shall love him. And We will come to him and will make a dwelling place with him.
Joh 14:24 The one who does not love Me does not keep My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father who sent Me.
Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The Words which I speak to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me, He does the works.

Merton.