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Fenris
Aug 6th 2008, 12:46 PM
Is the modern-day state of Israel a fulfillment of prophecy?

Is it one of these things that just happens outside of God's will?

Is the answer unknown/unknowable?

Fenris
Aug 6th 2008, 12:49 PM
I voted 'yes'.

(would anyone expect otherwise? :lol:)

Fenris
Aug 6th 2008, 12:54 PM
There are verses all over the bible that support my contention. For example, Zachariah 8:


1. And the word of the Lord of Hosts came [to me], saying:

2. So said the Lord of Hosts: I am jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and with great fury I am jealous for her.

3. So said the Lord: I will return to Zion, and I will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem; and Jerusalem shall be called the city of truth, and the mount of the Lord of Hosts [shall be called] the holy mountain.

4. So said the Lord of Hosts: Old men and women shall yet sit in the streets of Jerusalem, each man with his staff in his hand because of old age.

5. And the streets of the city shall be filled, with boys and girls playing in its streets.

6. So said the Lord of Hosts: As it will be wonderful in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, it will also be wonderful in My eyes, says the Lord of Hosts.

7. So said the Lord of Hosts: Behold I will save My people from the land of the east and from the land of the west.

8. And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people, and I shall be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

9. So said the Lord of Hosts: Let your hands be strong, you who hear in these days these words from the mouth of the prophets that were [prophesying] in the day that the foundation of the house of the Lord of Hosts was laid, even the Temple, that it might be built.

10. For before those days, there was no hire for man; neither was there any hire for beast. And for him that went out or came in, there was no peace because of the adversary, and I would incite all men, each one against his neighbor.

11. But now I am not [the same] to the remnant of this people as in the early days, said the Lord of Hosts.

12. For the sowing is for peace. The vine shall give forth its fruit, and the earth shall give forth its produce, and the heavens shall give forth their dew-and I will cause the remnant of this people to inherit all these.

13. And it shall come to pass that [just] as you were a curse among the nations, O house of Judah and house of Israel, so will I save you-and you shall be a blessing. Fear not; may your hands be strengthened!

14. For so said the Lord of Hosts: As I planned to do evil to you when your forefathers provoked Me-said the Lord of Hosts-and I did not repent,

15. so have I turned about. I have planned in these days to do good to Jerusalem and to the house of Judah; do not fear.

16. These are the things that you shall do: Speak the truth each one with his neighbor; truth, and judgment of peace you shall judge in your cities.

17. And let no one think evil of his neighbors in your heart, nor shall you love a false oath-for all these are what I hate, says the Lord.

18. And the word of the Lord of Hosts came to me, saying:

19. So said the Lord of Hosts: The fast of the fourth [month], the fast of the fifth [month], the fast of the seventh [month], and the fast of the tenth [month] shall be for the house of Judah for joy and happiness and for happy holidays-but love truth and peace.

20. So said the Lord of Hosts: [There will] yet [be a time] that peoples and the inhabitants of many cities shall come.

21. And the inhabitants of one shall go to another, saying, "Let us go to pray before the Lord and to entreat the Lord of Hosts. I, too, will go."

22. And many peoples and powerful nations shall come to entreat the Lord of Hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.

23. So said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."

wombat
Aug 6th 2008, 02:42 PM
I voted 'yes'. (would anyone expect otherwise? :lol:)
Hello, Fenris! I also vote yes. I believe this with all my heart, and it makes me sad to see how my country is pushing Israel into a "peace" treaty that will put their existence into a terrible danger. But I also think that this push to make Israel give up parts of its land is foretold by the Old Testament prophets too. Some verses I see that may speak to this are Zechariah 1:15-21, which says there will be four world powers that will humble and scatter Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem. The four world powers are nations that live in peace and security, and I can think of a few that might fit that description pressing Israel right now, including the U.S. Apparently there will also be four world powers that will set out to terrify and destroy those four. They are described as blacksmiths or carpenters, leading me to suspect they are "builders" of some kind--perhaps nations who are beginning to build up weapons, such as Iran, or whose economic status is beginning to become powerful, such as China, Russia, etc. Another verse is Micah 2:5, which says others will set Israel's boundaries, and Israel will have no say in how the land is divided. And Joel 3:4-6 speaks of Tyre, Sidon, and Philistia removing Israelis far from their territory by selling them to the Greeks.

I love Israel, and I know that they are going to go through some very difficult times as God's plans unfold. But I also know that God loves Israel and will miraculously preserve a remnant through all the difficult days--a remnant who will love and serve Him and to whom He will send the Messiah in the last days. This is what I will be praying for!

apothanein kerdos
Aug 6th 2008, 03:05 PM
This might surprise you Fenris, but I actually put "I don't know."

I lean more toward it being a partial fulfillment of prophecy. Certainly having the land given back, defending it against 5 nations while still establishing the land, defending it against 5 nations again in 1967 (and in 6 days no less), and so on...it is difficult to say God is not involved.

At the same time, the prophecies also speak of a spiritual return - yet Israel has become more and more secular in her existence. It seems there is quite a bit left in terms of prophecy.

danield
Aug 6th 2008, 03:07 PM
I voted yes too. I think it is clear that it is a fulfillment of prophecy. At least it is clear to me.

Fenris
Aug 6th 2008, 03:25 PM
This might surprise you Fenris, but I actually put "I don't know."

I lean more toward it being a partial fulfillment of prophecy.
I agree. But partial fulfillment is still fulfillment. Just that more is yet to come. :)

Fenris
Aug 6th 2008, 03:35 PM
Hello, Fenris! I also vote yes.
You've made a very interesting post.


Some verses I see that may speak to this are Zechariah 1:15-21, which says there will be four world powers that will humble and scatter Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem. I think much of this has already happened, but some may still be yet to come.


I love Israel, and I know that they are going to go through some very difficult times as God's plans unfold. But I also know that God loves Israel and will miraculously preserve a remnant through all the difficult days--a remnant who will love and serve Him and to whom He will send the Messiah in the last days. This is what I will be praying for!Hopefully all of Israel will be protected by the Lord.

RoadWarrior
Aug 6th 2008, 03:38 PM
I vote yes. That has been central to my awareness for a long time. It has major implications for what we can expect to happen before the end of the generation born in 1948.

Steve M
Aug 6th 2008, 06:10 PM
I've been reading Jeremiah lately, which is powerful on the subject, naturally.

Interestingly, Jeremiah says that God promised that Ephraim would be regathered too... which did not happen during the partial regathering, and I'm pretty sure isn't happening now.

In fact, right now it appears that nobody but God knows where the ten tribes are...

But He promised they would be part of the regathering, crying out His love towards them.

So, given how much Christians stake on the fulfillment of Jeremiah and the promise of a New Covenant... naturally!

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ezekiel%2037&version=31

A Messianic Jew that I know has spoken to me about Ezekiel's prophecy of the valley of the dried bones. A regathering, first without life, but later with life. In the present time a secular Israel is regathering, it appears... a regathering with no Life in it. Bones that regrow flesh and sinew, the appearance of what should be alive, but no breath in it.


11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.' "

Of course, the very next passage is about the lost 10 tribes coming back too.


15 The word of the LORD came to me: 16 "Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, 'Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.' Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, 'Ephraim's stick, belonging to Joseph and all the house of Israel associated with him.' 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.

As a Christian, I see this as not just a revival in the following of Moses' Law, but a discovery of the Messiah that came.


24 " 'My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees.

I see there David's descendant...


26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant.

Cross-reference with Jeremiah 31.


31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

Yeah, that's all stuff firmly enmeshed in the Christian understanding of how all this fits together.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 6th 2008, 06:14 PM
I agree. But partial fulfillment is still fulfillment. Just that more is yet to come. :)

Fair enough. If I could change my vote to fulfilled, I would.

BroRog
Aug 7th 2008, 06:18 PM
Using the picture of Ezekiel's dry bones prophecy, I believe the bones are assembled waiting for flesh and spirit.

2Witnesses
Aug 12th 2008, 09:34 AM
Is the modern-day state of Israel a fulfillment of prophecy?

Is it one of these things that just happens outside of God's will?

Is the answer unknown/unknowable?

Hi Fenris.

No, it is ( the State of Israel) not ourside prophecy. But it is not the fulfillment of the promised Re-gathering.

This present State is the 'beast out of the sea' of the nations, spoken of in Rev. 13. And from this willc come the false messiah. He will, within 7 years, build the temple.

Jews, the rest of the remnant, will be saved as they receive HaMoshiah Yeshua.

2Witnesses

Fenris
Aug 12th 2008, 11:34 AM
This present State is the 'beast out of the sea' of the nations, spoken of in Rev. 13. And from this willc come the false messiah. He will, within 7 years, build the temple.

Is that bad? I don't know the refrence.

2Witnesses
Aug 12th 2008, 03:08 PM
Is that bad? I don't know the refrence.


Yes Fenris, It is VERY bad. Duh!!! He will deceive people like you (unless you remember what is spoken here). And he will seek to kill you that is, all the remnant. Be afraid!@!!! Be Very afraid!!!!

Listen. They hate it when people 'date' things. But a person who is alive and in israeli politics today, will promise to re-build the temple. Watch for this!

2Witnesses

Fenris
Aug 12th 2008, 03:09 PM
Interestingly enough, one of the expectations of the Jewish messiah is that he will rebuild the Temple. :hmm:

2Witnesses
Aug 12th 2008, 03:22 PM
Interestingly enough, one of the expectations of the Jewish messiah is that he will rebuild the Temple. :hmm:


Hi Fenris,

Nice you read you. And Yes! I know Bible prophecy. And one who was conceived in 1948, and born in 1949 will do this very thing.

Let me tell you. To gain all power, later in his term, he will make this promise. He knows it is his time.

I am so exicited! And yet I fear and tremble. i have the spirit's view. i am constrained. You do not understand. Right now i am overcome!

Soon I will tell him. And I will say he shall recieve a wound: on his right eye and arm. But they will not stop him.

You do not understand the pain I feel now!

2Witnesses

Fenris
Aug 12th 2008, 03:31 PM
So a rebuilt temple would be bad? Hmm....:hmm:

pinky
Aug 12th 2008, 04:17 PM
Hi Fenris,

Why do you suppose God destroyed the temple 2000 years ago?

Fenris
Aug 12th 2008, 04:21 PM
Because the Jews were behaving badly.

quiet dove
Aug 12th 2008, 05:14 PM
So a rebuilt temple would be bad? Hmm....:hmm:

The reason for the temple concern is that because of who will be here before the Messiah, a false one claiming to be Him but not Him.

There are two beast described in Revelation.
The first one from the sea I believe to be a Gentile
Rev 13:1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.

Daniel also speaks of this empire and/or leader with the ten toes and ten horns Daniel 2 and 7

I believe this to be the Antichrist, the false one who will be accepted. He will at first be the best thing since sliced bread but will be empowered by the Dragon.
Rev 13:4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"


The other one described I believe to be Jewish
Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.
To me this describes a false prophet. A wolf in sheep's clothing.

The beast from the earth will promote the beast from the sea
Rev 13:12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. (Rev 13:3)
Rev 13:13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
Rev 13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth—by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.

Fenris
Aug 12th 2008, 05:29 PM
The reason for the temple concern is that because of who will be here before the Messiah, a false one claiming to be Him but not Him.
:hmm:

Interesting.

Well, if the guy meets Jewish expectations of the messiah, Jews will follow him.

Paul_born_again
Aug 12th 2008, 06:24 PM
I'm not to knowledgeable about world history, so does anyone know if there has ever been another nation that ceased to exist, and was recreated about 2000 years later (or another very long period of time)?

Fenris
Aug 12th 2008, 06:41 PM
I'm not to knowledgeable about world history, so does anyone know if there has ever been another nation that ceased to exist, and was recreated about 2000 years later (or another very long period of time)?
Besides Israel, such a thing has never happened.

No group of people have kept their language/religion/culture intact after being exiled from their homeland for 20 centuries.

quiet dove
Aug 12th 2008, 07:42 PM
:hmm:

Interesting.

Well, if the guy meets Jewish expectations of the messiah, Jews will follow him.

Well, just for the record, though I know that the NT is not where your trust lies, but Jesus taught that He would not just show up again walking the earth, it says

Mat 24:26 "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.

In other words, all these people who have gotten and still get caught up in these men who come along and claim to be Jesus would simply read this verse, it would have prevented them much heart ache. Like that Jim Jones nut.

Jesus taught that the next time He came it would be:
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

So basically, any Tom, Dick or Harry that shows up walking around claiming to be Jesus, ain't Him. Even when someone comes along and appears to make everything better, even to the point of restoring the temple and temple worship and what appears to be a true peace for Israel.

But anyway, want you to be with me, but if you are still here and see these things happen, you will then be able to remember my words. Don't trust this one who comes and get your family to safety.

:hug: Said with love :hug:

Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place".....16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 ...the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

These verses in Thess are also some of the verses that some Christians, me being one, that believe indicate another temple must be built, which of course is hotly debated among Christians because of the words "temple of God". But unless you are interested I won't go there as it would surely derail the thread even more than I already have.

quiet dove
Aug 12th 2008, 07:45 PM
Just to get back on track. I believe that the establishment of Israel again is certainly the work of God. Many scholars believe it is Ezekiel's prophecy of dry bones, I think someone already said that here. But even if it isn't fulfillment of any particular prophecy, I still believe it is the hand of God in the future of Israel. He said He would scatter and He did, He said He would regather, and He is-and-or-will. Thats what I believe anyway.

Fenris
Aug 12th 2008, 08:18 PM
This is so interesting. I'm so glad I'm here, I've learned things I would never have otherwise known!



Mat 24:26 "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. From the Talmud: If you are planting a tree and someone says the messiah is coming, finish planting the tree and then go greet the messiah..


I've changed your paragraph:

In other words, all these people who have gotten and still get caught up in these men who come along and claim to be the messiah would simply read this verse, it would have prevented them much death and destruction from fighting against the Romans.



Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

So basically, any Tom, Dick or Harry that shows up walking around claiming to be Jesus, ain't Him. Even when someone comes along and appears to make everything better, even to the point of restoring the temple and temple worship and what appears to be a true peace for Israel.Well, here's where we will differ... a reading of the messianic prophecies in the Tanach as Jews see them lays out the mission for the messiah: Be a righteous king, lead the Jews to God, fight Israel's enemies and rebuild the Temple. You're saying that isn't sufficient, and I suppose from your viewpoint it isn't.




:hug: Said with love :hug:Always. that's what's great about you!

quiet dove
Aug 12th 2008, 08:40 PM
This is so interesting. I'm so glad I'm here, I've learned things I would never have otherwise known!

From the Talmud: If you are planting a tree and someone says the messiah is coming, finish planting the tree and then go greet the messiah..
But if you think about that, if the Messiah was coming, would you really care about the tree?



I've changed your paragraph:

In other words, all these people who have gotten and still get caught up in these men who come along and claim to be the messiah would simply read this verse, it would have prevented them much death and destruction from fighting against the Romans.But fighting the Roman persecution because of ones religion is different than following someone claiming to be what they are not. Fighting the Romans one could loose their life, following the wrong messiah one could loose their soul.



Well, here's where we will differ... a reading of the messianic prophecies in the Tanach as Jews see them lays out the mission for the messiah: Be a righteous king, lead the Jews to God, fight Israel's enemies and rebuild the Temple. You're saying that isn't sufficient, and I suppose from your viewpoint it isn't.Not sufficient for cleansing a mans sins, but, I do believe when Jesus returns He will do the things you have listed plus rule the earth from Jerusalem. Again, a hotly debated bunch of issues over in ETC.:rolleyes:

Fenris
Aug 12th 2008, 08:52 PM
But if you think about that, if the Messiah was coming, would you really care about the tree?The point was, at the time there were many messiah claimants. All false. You'd say all but one were false. But in any case, much messianic fervor over nothing.


But fighting the Roman persecution because of ones religion is different than following someone claiming to be what they are not. Fighting the Romans one could loose their life, following the wrong messiah one could loose their soul.Hmm... well first of all, the messiah according to Jewish understanding at the time would free the Jews from oppression. So some fighting would have to occur. And I don't see how following the wrong messiah could cost one their soul. Many Jews followed Bar Kochba believing him to be the messiah, and they were killed by the Romans. But I don't think it cost them their soul....


Not sufficient for cleansing a mans sins, but, I do believe when Jesus returns He will do the things you have listed plus rule the earth from Jerusalem. Again, a hotly debated bunch of issues over in ETC.:rolleyes:
Well, I suppose it depends on whether one thinks the messiah is necessary to cleans sins or not..

pinky
Aug 12th 2008, 09:32 PM
Because the Jews were behaving badly.

So, would you agree that it was a sign of God's judgment?

quiet dove
Aug 12th 2008, 10:43 PM
The point was, at the time there were many messiah claimants. All false. You'd say all but one were false. But in any case, much messianic fervor over nothing.


Well, setting aside, just for the moment, that Jesus did not restore the kingdom of Israel and just for the record something I believe He will yet do. But I know that is one of the disagreements you have so just mentioning.

But...:)
What about the other qualifications, like were these others from the line of David? Is that a requirement as far as you believe?

Another question, of course off OP, but why was there so much messianic fervor at the time?

Paul_born_again
Aug 13th 2008, 12:40 AM
Besides Israel, such a thing has never happened.

No group of people have kept their language/religion/culture intact after being exiled from their homeland for 20 centuries.

That is indeed very cool!

I know, for example, Persia existed for thousands of years, and stills does (but with the name Iran), however, Persia has gone through so many changes in culture, major religion, language, customs, lineage of its people, etc, that it cant even be called the same nation anymore as it was thousands of years ago.

On the other hand, Israel being non-existent for such a long time, and then be gathered back together with the same religion, customs, people, language (although their language has gone through many changes in dialect over the centuries (correct me if I'm wrong)), it definitely adds to the evidence that it indeed is by God's design.

Fenris
Aug 13th 2008, 12:51 AM
So, would you agree that it was a sign of God's judgment?
Of course. How could it be otherwise?

Fenris
Aug 13th 2008, 12:53 AM
What about the other qualifications, like were these others from the line of David? Is that a requirement as far as you believe?
Yes it is a requirement. Of course, that would have to mean that his father was from the line of David, which you do not claim...


Another question, of course off OP, but why was there so much messianic fervor at the time?
Good question. Let me think about it.

Fenris
Aug 13th 2008, 12:54 AM
That is indeed very cool!

I know, for example, Persia existed for thousands of years, and stills does (but with the name Iran), however, Persia has gone through so many changes in culture, major religion, language, customs, lineage of its people, etc, that it cant even be called the same nation anymore as it was thousands of years ago.

On the other hand, Israel being non-existent for such a long time, and then be gathered back together with the same religion, customs, people, language (although their language has gone through many changes in dialect over the centuries (correct me if I'm wrong)), it definitely adds to the evidence that it indeed is by God's design.
You're a pretty sharp guy ;)

2Witnesses
Aug 14th 2008, 04:15 PM
So a rebuilt temple would be bad? Hmm....:hmm:


Duh! Yes Fenris, it would be bad, very bad! Read Isa. 28.

2Witnesses

Fenris
Aug 14th 2008, 04:32 PM
Duh! Yes Fenris, it would be bad, very bad! Read Isa. 28.

2WitnessesI don't get it. Please explain.

2Witnesses
Aug 14th 2008, 06:19 PM
I don't get it. Please explain.


OK,

He will make the 'covenant with death .' Fenris, I want you to understand.

God does not want another temple. But the coming one does.

2Witnesses

quiet dove
Aug 14th 2008, 07:10 PM
I don't get it. Please explain.

Fenris, if I am not mistaken, I think that the reason Israel and possibly some Christians even, believe that the temple being built will be to hasten the return of the Messiah, or the coming of the Messiah.

As I have said, I do believe there will be a temple built, but I do NOT believe it will hasten the return of the Messiah, but will in fact, be used to trick the people with a false one claiming to be the Messiah. I do not believe the temple will be built because I think God wants it in order to bring forth the Messiah, but because there are passages that speak of the abomination of desolation being in the temple, therefore, there must be a temple.

Just for the record, I would be very hesitant to say this particular temple has anything to do with the temple described in Ezekiel, though it may, but I do not at this time think so. But as I have said many times on this forum, when it comes to Ezekiel, I say very little dogmatically.

Fenris
Aug 14th 2008, 09:29 PM
OK,

He will make the 'covenant with death .' Fenris, I want you to understand.

God does not want another temple. But the coming one does.

2WitnessesThen why did He promise to build a 3rd one?

Fenris
Aug 14th 2008, 09:31 PM
Fenris, if I am not mistaken, I think that the reason Israel and possibly some Christians even, believe that the temple being built will be to hasten the return of the Messiah, or the coming of the Messiah.Well, we believe that the Temple will be built upon the coming of the messiah....


As I have said, I do believe there will be a temple built, but I do NOT believe it will hasten the return of the Messiah, but will in fact, be used to trick the people with a false one claiming to be the Messiah.
See, this is so interesting. The prophecies say that the messiah will come and there will be a third temple, yet you reject this.

quiet dove
Aug 15th 2008, 01:17 AM
As I have said, I do believe there will be a temple built, but I do NOT believe it will hasten the return of the Messiah, but will in fact, be used to trick the people with a false one claiming to be the Messiah.

Well, we believe that the Temple will be built upon the coming of the messiah....

See, this is so interesting. The prophecies say that the messiah will come and there will be a third temple, yet you reject this.


No, not at all, I fully believe the Messiah will reign upon the earth and there will be a temple. But, the temple in the conversation here will not be built by the true Messiah, the True Messiah will have a temple that, at present, I believe may be the one described in Ezekiel, but as I said, I struggle with Ezekiel and am not saying that dogmatically.

I do however believe that the Messiah will reign from Jerusalem over the whole earth and there will be a temple at that time. But my warning is FIRST will come the false and he will fool many.... MANY.

I know it is confusing, what I am trying to say. But I, with all my heart warn you, before we see the True Messiah again, we will see the false messiah first.

Fenris
Aug 15th 2008, 10:07 AM
No, not at all, I fully believe the Messiah will reign upon the earth and there will be a temple. But, the temple in the conversation here will not be built by the true Messiah, the True Messiah will have a temple that, at present, I believe may be the one described in Ezekiel, but as I said, I struggle with Ezekiel and am not saying that dogmatically.

Well, time will tell I suppose....

th1bill
Aug 15th 2008, 01:58 PM
... I voted yes but I did it late because I am sure most already know that I teach this point continuously and sought not to influence the outcome. My favorites are "those dry bones" of Ezekiel but the Old and the New Testaments are consistent in the prophecy concerning this event.

2Witnesses
Aug 15th 2008, 02:19 PM
Then why did He promise to build a 3rd one?


Hi Fenris.,

Sorry about the 'Duh' comment. But please, where does 'he' promise a third temple? And no, not Ezekiel.

2Witnesses

Fenris
Aug 15th 2008, 03:01 PM
Hi Fenris.,

Sorry about the 'Duh' comment. But please, where does 'he' promise a third temple? And no, not Ezekiel.

2WitnessesI don't know what gives you the right to casually toss aside seven chapters of prophecy because it doesn't fit your idea of the messianic era... :hmm: Assuming there is no wasted space in the bible, chapters 40 to 47 lay out the dimensions and blueprints of what?

Anyway, a quick search finds the following evidence:

Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Isaiah 56...I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar;for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."

zachariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

2Witnesses
Aug 15th 2008, 04:54 PM
I don't know what gives you the right to casually toss aside seven chapters of prophecy because it doesn't fit your idea of the messianic era... :hmm: Assuming there is no wasted space in the bible, chapters 40 to 47 lay out the dimensions and blueprints of what?

Anyway, a quick search finds the following evidence:

Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Isaiah 56...I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar;for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."

zachariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Gosh Fenris,

I guess I just threw out a third of the OT In Yeshua!!!! God does not want the blood of your bulls and goats. He wans your obedience. And such is found in faith of Yeshau.l

2Witnesses

Fenris
Aug 15th 2008, 05:01 PM
Gosh Fenris,

I guess I just threw out a third of the OT In Yeshua!!!! God does not want the blood of your bulls and goats. He wans your obedience. And such is found in faith of Yeshau.l

2Witnesses
That has absolutely nothing to do with what I just posted.

You asked for references to a rebuilt temple, and I gave them to you. Now that I have provided scriptural backing for my contention, you proceed to ignore it.

That isn't having a conversation, that's two people talking at each other. I'm not going to waste my time with this.

Good day.

2Witnesses
Aug 16th 2008, 09:00 AM
That has absolutely nothing to do with what I just posted.

You asked for references to a rebuilt temple, and I gave them to you. Now that I have provided scriptural backing for my contention, you proceed to ignore it.

That isn't having a conversation, that's two people talking at each other. I'm not going to waste my time with this.

Good day.

Fenris,

The temple of stone was FOREVER replaced by the New Covenant.

2Witnesses

Fenris
Aug 17th 2008, 12:45 AM
Oh.

God is a liar then.:hmm:

2Witnesses
Aug 17th 2008, 09:29 AM
Oh.

God is a liar then.:hmm:

No Fenris,

You just do not understand Bible prophecy. And by the way, He has a sense of humor.

Ez's temple was two things: what 'could have been if you were faithful on the return from Babylon; and 2, its a promise the AC will seek to keep.

Fenris, you have to know AC is here! And soon he will promise to build Ez's temple. Do NOT be deceived!

2Witnesses

Ps. 'Liar'!!!??? You do realize God allowed a 'lying spirit' to deceive a few kings of Israel, don't you?

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 12:39 AM
So God showed His prophets events that will never occur. In other words, He lied.

2Witnesses
Aug 18th 2008, 08:09 AM
So God showed His prophets events that will never occur. In other words, He lied.


Fenris,

Do you know the mind of God? Remember, He told Moshe 'the things revealed belong....' Deut 30 something.

Do not be so wise in your 'wisdom', Fenris. Such will be a stone of stumbling for you.

2Witnesses

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 04:06 PM
Holding God to His word is a stone of stumbling? Wow. :hmm:

Numbers 23;19 God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

But obviously you know better.

Anyway, here's a story from the Talmud on the subject.



It happened that Rabban Gamliel, Rabbi Elazar ben Azaria, Rabbi Joshua and Rabbi Akiva went up to Jerusalem. When they reached Mt. Scopus, they tore their garments. When they reached the Temple Mount, they saw a fox emerging from the place of the Holy of Holies. The others started weeping; Rabbi Akiva laughed.

Said they to him: "Why are you laughing?"

Said he to them: "Why are you weeping?"

Said they to him: "A place so holy that it is said of it, 'the stranger that approaches it shall die,'(Numbers 1:51) and now foxes traverse it, and we shouldn't weep?"

Said he to them: "That is why I laugh. For it is written, 'I shall have bear witness for Me faithful witnesses--Uriah the Priest and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah.'(Isaiah 8:2) Now what is the connection between Uriah and Zechariah? Uriah was in the time of the First Temple, and Zechariah was in the time of the Second Temple! But the Torah makes Zachariah's prophecy dependent upon Uriah's prophecy. With Uriah, it is written: 'Therefore, because of you, Zion shall be plowed as a field; Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the Temple Mount like the high places of a forest.'(Micah 3:12) With Zachariah it is written, 'Old men and women shall yet sit in the streets of Jerusalem.'(Zachariah 8:4)

"As long as Uriah's prophecy had not been fulfilled, I feared that Zechariah's prophecy may not be fulfilled either. But now that Uriah's prophecy has been fulfilled, it is certain that Zechariah's prophecy will be fulfilled."

With these words they replied to him: "Akiva, you have consoled us!"

Fenris
Aug 20th 2008, 11:44 AM
Wow. There's been a late surge of "No. Israel is not longer chosen/the prophecy was fulfilled metaphorically/other"... anyone who voted that way want to comment on it?

pinky
Aug 20th 2008, 10:19 PM
Hi Fenris,

I'm glad to see that we agree that the destruction of the temple was God's judgment.


Your temple was destroyed, your city burned and your people slain and scattered. That is a pretty cataclysmic judgment wouldn't you say?

Why do you suppose God did that?

historyb
Aug 20th 2008, 11:28 PM
I voted no. Most likely being Preterist and amill had something to do with my vote also be a bit Calvinistic. :lol:

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 12:06 AM
Hi Fenris,

I'm glad to see that we agree that the destruction of the temple was God's judgment.


Your temple was destroyed, your city burned and your people slain and scattered. That is a pretty cataclysmic judgment wouldn't you say?

Why do you suppose God did that?
Because the Jews were behaving badly, obviously.

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 12:07 AM
I voted no. Most likely being Preterist and amill had something to do with my vote also be a bit Calvinistic. :lol:
I'm not familiar with your beliefs.

historyb
Aug 21st 2008, 12:22 AM
I'm sorry about that. Here's a definition of preterism:


Partial preterism is a form of Christian eschatology that holds much in common with but is distinct from Full preterism (or 'consistent' or 'hyper' preterism) in that it places the events of most of the Book of Revelation as occurring during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (and/or the Fall of Rome several centuries later) yet still affirms an orthodox future bodily return of Christ to earth at an unknown day and hour. Partial preterism sees Matthew 24, Matthew 25:31-46, the Book of Daniel and most of the Book of Revelation (besides its last 2 or 3 chapters) as speaking about events no later than the first century AD, and about a coming of Christ in judgment, not the (second, final and bodily) coming of Christ and Last judgment.

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_preterism)

I think that is what would apply with the question here.

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 12:50 AM
I'm sorry about that. Here's a definition of preterism:



Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_preterism)

I think that is what would apply with the question here.
Hmm. Ok. :hmm: I've seen some of those concepts around.

pinky
Aug 21st 2008, 10:40 PM
Because the Jews were behaving badly, obviously.

Could you please be more specific?


Would you agree that before God sends His judgment He also sends His prophets to warn the people to repent from their iniquity?

Fenris
Aug 21st 2008, 11:58 PM
Could you please be more specific? We know from historians of the period that the Jews treated each other badly. So they were punished.



Would you agree that before God sends His judgment He also sends His prophets to warn the people to repent from their iniquity?
Not always. The period of the prophets ended a long time ago.

BroRog
Aug 22nd 2008, 12:40 AM
Because the Jews were behaving badly, obviously.

I think it's important to keep the distinction between a Jew as a person and Israel as a country/nation. I think precision demands that we say God brought judgment on Israel the country/nation, not individual Jews. Fourth Century Christians failed to maintain this distinction, which justified, in their minds, centuries of persecution.

Secondly, the Apostle John spoke of the first century exile as both an act of judgment and mercy. The people were under the wrath of God. But at the same time, the exile became a means for their protection. John pictures it as "hiding in the wilderness."

And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.

In this, the serpent is Satan; The river represents the Roman armies laying siege to Jerusalem like flood waters; The Woman represents the native Israelites who fled into other countries. This scattering of Jews actually made it more difficult for Satan to destroy the Jews since they were no longer gathered in one place making an easy target. After that, he could only attack small groups and individuals, that is, until German efficiency was employed to terrible effect.

Fenris
Aug 22nd 2008, 12:44 AM
I think it's important to keep the distinction between a Jew as a person and Israel as a country/nation. I think precision demands that we say God brought judgment on Israel the country/nation, not individual Jews.
All Jews are considered guardians for one another. When God decides to punish us, alas, the good must be punished with the bad.

BroRog
Aug 22nd 2008, 12:47 AM
All Jews are considered guardians for one another. When God decides to punish us, alas, the good must be punished with the bad.

Such is life as a covenant people, I guess.

BTW, do you think Elijah will return?

Fenris
Aug 22nd 2008, 10:19 AM
BTW, do you think Elijah will return?
Of course! It's in Malachi.

pinky
Aug 22nd 2008, 04:28 PM
Hi Fenris,

Can you think of an instance where God sent His judgment on Jerusalem without first sending His prophets?

Fenris
Aug 22nd 2008, 05:00 PM
Hi Fenris,

Can you think of an instance where God sent His judgment on Jerusalem without first sending His prophets?
There were three major tragedies in Jewish history. Two of them took place after the end of the era of prophecy.

pinky
Aug 23rd 2008, 12:43 PM
That doesn't really answer my question.

Can you think of an instance where God sent His judgment on the city of Jerusalem without first sending His prophets?

Fenris
Aug 24th 2008, 11:24 AM
Jerusalem? 70Ad, 132Ad. If you a the Jewish people to the mix, you can add 1648 and 1942.

pinky
Aug 25th 2008, 01:47 AM
Jerusalem? 70Ad, 132Ad. If you a the Jewish people to the mix, you can add 1648 and 1942.



Given that 70AD was such a cataclysmic destruction, are you suggesting that God did not send prophetic warning prior to this destruction, just as He has done repeatedly before?

Is this consistent with God's character throughout scripture?

The city of Jerusalem and the temple were the very center of the judaic religion.

God destroyed this religious core.

This is a sign of HIS judgment on the pharisaic religion.

Do you agree?

Fenris
Aug 25th 2008, 11:37 AM
Given that 70AD was such a cataclysmic destruction, are you suggesting that God did not send prophetic warning prior to this destruction, just as He has done repeatedly before?God had not done that repeatedly before. He did it prior to the exile of the Northern 10 tribes, which did not include Jerusalem; and He did it prior to 586 BC. He did not issue warnings for other attacks on Jerusalem, which include the Greek conquest about 150 BC (That's the Chanukah story, by the way).


Is this consistent with God's character throughout scripture?It's not God's character that changes, but His communication with man. That ceased shortly after the first diaspora.


The city of Jerusalem and the temple were the very center of the judaic religion. True. And yet, after the first diaspora a majority of the world's Jews did not live in Israel and did not bring daily sacrifice. Rather, they prayed in synagogues as Jews do today.


God destroyed this religious core. The building God destroyed had been corrupted by the Saducees who were Roman toadies.


This is a sign of HIS judgment on the pharisaic religion.
If God was displeased with the Pharisees, he would have destroyed them. Instead He destroyed the Saducees and their power base, which is what the Temple was...Rabinical Judaism is modern-day Pharisism and the fact that it has survived 2000 years without a temple and without a homeland and numerous attempts to eradicate it by murderous antisemties tells me that God approves of it.

What does it tell you?

Fenris
Aug 25th 2008, 04:50 PM
Actually a bittersweet story I read today:


Funeral for Baruch

by Rabbi Binny Freedman

Instead of crying, a reason to sing.


This is a story that I read in the Jerusalem Post a number of years ago. Now, understand, I am really a skeptic at heart when it comes to things like this, and I could not believe such a story was true, so I actually went to Mount Herzl and found the Shapiro grave. Seeing the headstone in the cemetery with the inscription matching the information in the newspaper account convinced me that the story is true. And because it is such a beautiful story, I will share it with you now:

Chaim Shapiro went through the seven levels of hell. He survived four concentration camps not to mention the ghetto and forced marches. He began the War with eight children and a wonderful wife, and in a little over a year, he lost his wife and seven of his children, without ever having the chance to even sit shiva.


He was finally liberated from Buchenwald with his only surviving son Baruch and they wallowed in the DP camps for nearly three years until finally, in 1948, they found place aboard an immigrant ship and arrived in Israel a week later.


Israel, in the midst of the War of Independence, was fighting a desperate battle for survival against overwhelming odds, so Baruch Shapiro volunteered to fight.


With no previous training, he was taken to a ravine, handed a rifle, taught how to shoot a few bullets, and sent off to war.


Meanwhile, with the stipend that he received from the Jewish Agency, his father Chaim rented a small apartment outside Tel Aviv.


Baruch Shapiro distinguished himself in battle. As part of the Harel Brigade fighting under Yitzhak Rabin to break the Arab siege on Jerusalem, Baruch received a field commission as an officer and was awarded a medal for bravery under fire.


And then, one day, as Chaim Shapiro was sitting in his tiny living room in Tel Aviv, he glanced out the window and saw one of those terrible delegations heading up the path to his apartment.


They say that Chaim Shapiro opened the door before they knocked, and they say that he never even read the telegram, just crumpled it over and over in his hands....


When a soldier in Israel is killed, the army takes care of everything, including the funeral arrangements. Chaim Shapiro had only one request: he wanted his son who had died fighting for Jerusalem to at least be buried in Jerusalem, on Mount Herzl, the National Military cemetery.


The next afternoon hundreds of mourners gathered at Mount Herzl. Most of them had never known Baruch Shapiro or his father Chaim, but they had heard of the terrible tragedy and wanted to pay their respects. After all, what Hitler had not finished in the crematoria had ended at the hands of an Arab bullet; this was the last Shapiro son; the end of a line.


Yigal Yadin himself, the IDF Chief of Staff (who would later discover Massada) stood by Chaim Shapiro's side.


And as the coffin was being lowered into the ground, Chaim Shapiro began to sing.


People thought he had lost it; Yadin put his arm around Chaim's shoulders and someone ran to get him some water. But he shrugged them all off, and again, began to sing. People had no idea what to make of it, so finally Chaim Shapiro looked at them and said: "You know, I have been through a hell the likes of which most people cannot imagine; I lost over seventy relatives in a little over a year, including seven children, my wife and parents. I have no place to mourn them, no grave; they are ashes in the skies over Europe, and I have no idea why they had to die.


"But this son, at least this son, I know why he died. He died so we could have a home for the Jewish people in the land of Israel, and he has a grave, here on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem. And that is not a reason to cry, it is a reason to sing."


When Chaim Shapiro finished speaking, he began to sing once more, and grabbing people's hands, to dance.


And as the flag-draped coffin of Baruch Shapiro was lowered into the ground, three hundred mourners began to sing and to dance against the setting sun of the Jerusalem sky...


The next time you visit Israel, go to Mount Herzl, Israel's National Military Cemetery, her Arlington. And when you walk through the wide stone gates, walk up and then down to the right where the graves from 1948 lie, and you will find the lonely grave of one Baruch Shapiro. Close your eyes there, and you will understand perhaps, why the Jewish people will never be destroyed.


Am Yisrael Chai.

Fenris
Sep 1st 2008, 11:22 AM
Late run of 'No' votes, but with no explanation...

Mark F
Sep 2nd 2008, 12:06 AM
Hi Fenris,

I wanted to tell you I have enjoyed
conversing with you, thank you for your responses.

I voted yes a couple of days ago but have had
a few questions on some Scriptures to run by
you if you could give me your thoughts
on the subject of your post.

Hosea 5:14-6:3
14 "For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

1 Come, and let us return to the LORD;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the LORD.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth."


This I believe is a prophesy of the rejection
of Jesus by Israel, their scattering and affliction,
and their regathering. And finally their acknowledgement
of Jesus as Messiah.

5:14-15 I believe speaks of the rejection of Jesus
by the Jews, His death, resurrection, and ascention
back to the Father, then His return in glory
to establish His kingdom and throne in Jerusalem.

Some other Scripture I use that you wouldn't,
but include to give you an idea where I am coming from.

Matthew 23:37-39:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”

Also from Revelation 1:4-8:
4 "John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”



Then chapter six from today's perspective, sort of a look
back over the last 2000 years. (I believe that Jesus'
return is extremely close)

In 2 Peter 3:-9 Peter is talking about the times near
Jesus return:

1 "Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”

5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

Hopefully I can be clear here, sometimes my thoughts
don't always come out in type like they are in my head!:lol:

So if a thousand years is as a day with the Lord,
which can be taken a couple of ways, but according to
the Jewish calander it is the year 5768. That, if I am not
mistaken is very close to what some would date the
earth at.

So 6000 years, (0-6000 six dsys), the 7000th (6001-7000 7th day)
would be for rest, the millenial kingdom.
So from Hosea 6:1 since Jesus was
crucified, returned to heaven, it has been 2 days.

Israel is now back in the land for the most part, on the 3rd
day, (with the Lord a day is as a thousand years)


I find to tie the history of Israel to Jesus as Messiah,
I look for parallels between what we read of Him in the
New Testament, and things Israel has gone through.

Isaiah 63:8-9
8 "For He said, “Surely they are My people,
Children who will not lie.”
So He became their Savior.
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the Angel of His Presence saved them;
In His love and in His pity He redeemed them;
And He bore them and carried them
All the days of old."

(This is just a short part but I only want to save space,
not wanting to pull short parts out of context).


That's some of my understanding, in using the
Isaiah quote above, in all thier affliction, (Israel's)
parallel's Jesus in that He went to Egypt,
was naked and shamed (persecution, Holocaust),
was dead and raised on the third day (from Hosea).
To name a few.


Just from my perspective.

Mark F
Sep 2nd 2008, 12:21 AM
Another one:
Isaiah 11:11-12

11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
12 He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.


This I believe is sort of in two parts,
those there now, and more to come
after the time of Jacob's Trouble.

Fenris
Sep 2nd 2008, 12:08 PM
Hi Fenris,

I wanted to tell you I have enjoyed
conversing with you, thank you for your responses.Thank you! It has been a pleasure for me as well! :)


I voted yes a couple of days ago but have had
a few questions on some Scriptures to run by
you if you could give me your thoughts
on the subject of your post.
Of course, of course.


Hosea 5:14-6:3
14 "For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

1 Come, and let us return to the LORD;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the LORD.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth."


This I believe is a prophesy of the rejection
of Jesus by Israel, their scattering and affliction,
and their regathering. And finally their acknowledgement
of Jesus as Messiah.I see how you could see it in this way. But since 80% or so of the world's Jews are not religious, I see it as pertaining to that...


Some other Scripture I use that you wouldn't,
but include to give you an idea where I am coming from.Well, I am not going to comment on NT text.





Isaiah 63:8-9
8 "For He said, “Surely they are My people,
Children who will not lie.”
So He became their Savior.
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the Angel of His Presence saved them;
In His love and in His pity He redeemed them;
And He bore them and carried them
All the days of old."

(This is just a short part but I only want to save space,
not wanting to pull short parts out of context).


That's some of my understanding, in using the
Isaiah quote above, in all thier affliction, (Israel's)
parallel's Jesus in that He went to Egypt,
was naked and shamed (persecution, Holocaust),
was dead and raised on the third day (from Hosea).
To name a few.


Just from my perspective.Maybe.
Or maybe God is saying that when the Jews suffer, so does He...

Fenris
Sep 2nd 2008, 12:11 PM
Another one:
Isaiah 11:11-12

11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
12 He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.


This I believe is sort of in two parts,
those there now, and more to come
after the time of Jacob's Trouble.Well, if you read this literally, as it seems you are, then you do indeed believe that Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy...

keck553
Jan 28th 2009, 11:30 PM
Well, I voted yes.

Jollyrogers
Jan 31st 2009, 12:48 AM
This might surprise you Fenris, but I actually put "I don't know."

I lean more toward it being a partial fulfillment of prophecy. Certainly having the land given back, defending it against 5 nations while still establishing the land, defending it against 5 nations again in 1967 (and in 6 days no less), and so on...it is difficult to say God is not involved.

At the same time, the prophecies also speak of a spiritual return - yet Israel has become more and more secular in her existence. It seems there is quite a bit left in terms of prophecy.


This may help some. Ezekiel in chapter 36 tells why they are regathered. The children of Israel are the chosen people of God. When they were not in the land promised them it caused nations to question what had happened to the promise made to Abraham. I personaly believe he has also restored Israel as an announcement to the world that he keeps his promices and that we are near the time of Jacobs trouble. Keep in mind that this is just 2 chapters away from the battle of Gog and Magog, which the players appear to be getting set up.
Eze 36:15 "I will not let you hear insults from the nations anymore, nor will you bear disgrace from the peoples any longer, nor will you cause your nation to stumble any longer," declares the Lord GOD.'"
Eze 36:16 Then the word of the LORD came to me saying,
Eze 36:17 "Son of man, when the house of Israel was living in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds; their way before Me was like the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity.
Eze 36:18 "Therefore I poured out My wrath on them for the blood which they had shed on the land, because they had defiled it with their idols.
Eze 36:19 "Also I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed throughout the lands. According to their ways and their deeds I judged them.
Eze 36:20 "When they came to the nations where they went, they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them, 'These are the people of the LORD; yet they have come out of His land.'
Eze 36:21 "But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went.
Eze 36:22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went.
Eze 36:23 "I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.
Eze 36:24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
Eze 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
Eze 36:28 "You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
Eze 36:29 "Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you.
Eze 36:30 "I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations.
Eze 36:31 "Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations.
Eze 36:32 "I am not doing this for your sake," declares the Lord GOD, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!"
Eze 36:33 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places will be rebuilt.
Eze 36:34 "The desolate land will be cultivated instead of being a desolation in the sight of everyone who passes by.
Eze 36:35 "They will say, 'This desolate land has become like the garden of Eden; and the waste, desolate and ruined cities are fortified and inhabited.'
Eze 36:36 "Then the nations that are left round about you will know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted that which was desolate; I, the LORD, have spoken and will do it."
Eze 36:37 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "This also I will let the house of Israel ask Me to do for them: I will increase their men like a flock. Eze 36:38 "Like the flock for sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so will the waste cities be filled with flocks of men. Then they will know that I am the LORD."'"


Also interesting is the last few verses of EZ 39 tells why they went into exile.

Eze 39:23 And it will be clear to the nations that the children of Israel were taken away prisoners for their evil-doing; because they did wrong against me, and my face was covered from them: so I gave them up into the hands of their attackers, and they all came to their end by the sword.
Eze 39:24 In the measure of their unclean ways and their sins, so I did to them; and I kept my face covered from them.
Eze 39:25 For this cause the Lord has said, Now I will let the fate of Jacob be changed, and I will have mercy on all the children of Israel, and will take care of the honour of my holy name.
Eze 39:26 And they will be conscious of their shame and of all the wrong which they have done against me, when they are living in their land with no sense of danger and with no one to be a cause of fear to them;
Eze 39:27 When I have taken them back from among the peoples and got them together out of the lands of their haters, and have made myself holy in them before the eyes of a great number of nations.
Eze 39:28 And they will be certain that I am the Lord their God, because I sent them away as prisoners among the nations, and have taken them together back to their land; and I have not let one of them be there any longer.
Eze 39:29 And my face will no longer be covered from them: for I have sent the out-flowing of my spirit on the children of Israel,

Benaiah
Jan 31st 2009, 02:27 AM
Eze 36:25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
Eze 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Sounds like the New covenant, Is that the modern state of Israel? The modern state of Israel does not strike me as being filled with people who have the Indwelling of the Spirit of God.


Eze 36:33 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places will be rebuilt.

According to this it is on the day that he cleanses them from thier iniquities that he causes the cities to be in habited.

The passage also corresponds to chapter 20.


Eze 20:35 "And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face.
Eze 20:36 "Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord GOD.
Eze 20:37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant;
Eze 20:38 "I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.


Eze 39:26 And they will be conscious of their shame and of all the wrong which they have done against me, when they are living in their land with no sense of danger and with no one to be a cause of fear to them;


Has the Modern state of Israel EVER in it's history had no sense of danger?

Fenris
Feb 1st 2009, 02:58 PM
Benaiah, since most of the world's Jews still live outside of Israel, let's lean towards a partial fulfillment and not the entire fulfillment. You know, kind of like the stuff that Jesus fulfilled the first time and the stuff he's going to fulfill the second time.;)

Benaiah
Feb 1st 2009, 04:13 PM
Benaiah, since most of the world's Jews still live outside of Israel, let's lean towards a partial fulfillment and not the entire fulfillment. You know, kind of like the stuff that Jesus fulfilled the first time and the stuff he's going to fulfill the second time.;)

Partial fulfillment, or even delayed completion I can understand, reverse order of fulfillment I do not however.

The scriptures speak of a regathering in faith, one that is preceded by repentance and turning to God, Not a regathering and THEN they come to faith.

Fenris
Feb 1st 2009, 04:16 PM
The scriptures speak of a regathering in faith, one that is preceded by repentance and turning to God, Not a regathering and THEN they come to faith.
But we've not seen a complete regathering. Only the start of one. So perhaps we haven't seen complete repentance, but the beginnings of it.

I'd like to believe that the six million made their peace with God in their final moments. And their repentance is what made Israel possible.

Jollyrogers
Feb 1st 2009, 08:14 PM
I agree I was not saying it was completely fulfilled. (I probably did not explain myself very well, sorry). It is my opinion that this prophesy (Ez 36-37) concerning the regathering is presently being fulfilled, it is not complete yet.

God is regathering them not because they deserve it, but because he promised the land to the decendants of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. His word is on the line. As long as they were scattered the nations percieved that God had not kept his promise. That is why I think the Jews being restored is a message to the nations to take the God of the Bible seriously.



Eze 36:24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.


I read this as he will restore Israel to the land even if they are in unbelief. Once the children of Israel are returned to the land he will clean them of the Idolotry and false worship that they are in.




Eze 39:25 For this cause the Lord has said, Now I will let the fate of Jacob be changed, and I will have mercy on all the children of Israel, and will take care of the honour of my holy name.
Eze 39:26 And they will be conscious of their shame and of all the wrong which they have done against me, when they are living in their land with no sense of danger and with no one to be a cause of fear to them;
Eze 39:27 When I have taken them back from among the peoples and got them together out of the lands of their haters, and have made myself holy in them before the eyes of a great number of nations.

Has the Modern state of Israel EVER in it's history had no sense of danger?

No, but my point once again is that they are brought back into the land first then they are restored spiritually towards God. What I read here and above is that as a prerequsit to the whole house of Israel being restored spiritually, they have to be restored physically to the land promised to them, the decendants of Abraham Issac & Jacob.

quiet dove
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:56 AM
Closed the poll because polls need to be in polls and this topic is good for much discussion.

Fenris
Apr 22nd 2009, 11:51 AM
Thanks for the free bump! :)

keck553
Apr 22nd 2009, 03:53 PM
Why do we all question God's plan? Why do we need to see Israel's regathering or repentance take place in a space of time according to our standards?

With God, everything is a process of creation, of revelation, of sanctification, and in accordance to HIS times, not ours. Those believers who don't have a grasp of God's moedim are missing a glimpse about how and why He works His plan. We are taught these things are "Jewish", but in reality they come from God and are His gift of revelation about an aspect of His character we shouldn't ignore.

God works through human agency, whether they be believers or unbelievers. If God decides to regather Israel in 1000 years or 70 years, that's His soverign will. We can either trust His Word and promises or find excuses not to and continue on our long and windy road of attempting to separate Israel from God's grace.

Fenris
Apr 22nd 2009, 03:56 PM
Why do we all question God's plan? Why do we need to see Israel's regathering or repentance take place in a space of time according to our standards?

That's not the issue here. The issue at hand is the following: Do the biblical prophecies talking about Israel refer to the modern day state and the contemporary Jewish people?

keck553
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:12 PM
The UN may have formed the state of Israel, but the miricles that allowed Israel it's survival from day 1 to now can only be attributed to divine intervention. No other country could have survived the onslaught combined with the UN turning it's back on Israel from day 2.

Fenris
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:16 PM
The UN may have formed the state of Israel, but the miricles that allowed Israel it's survival from day 1 to now can only be attributed to divine intervention. No other country could have survived the onslaught combined with the UN turning it's back on Israel from day 2.I agree 100%. But that's separate from the issue about whether the biblical prophecies are about modern Israel.

keck553
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:35 PM
I agree 100%. But that's separate from the issue about whether the biblical prophecies are about modern Israel.

So you don't see a connection? If the modern state of Israel is outside of God's will, why the blessings? Wouldn't HaShem view it more like Haggar and Ishmael?

the rookie
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:37 PM
I haven't voted yet, but I would say that modern Israel is "of God" (partially) and is "of prophecy" (partially, as has been discussed).

One of my heroes, Art Katz, would say often that modern Israel is not "of God" at all; but that as it is currently constituted is a work of the "arm of the flesh" because of the current disobedience and distance the people of Israel are walking in related to God (by and large - I realize that's a broad brush).

In my opinion, modern Israel is a fruit of "partly God" (divine sovereignty and the beginnings of the fulfillment of OT prophecies and promises), "partly man" (a "work of the flesh" by which men, apart from God (some anti-Semitic and some very wicked) moved either "wittingly" or "unwittingly" / unknowingly to enact God's will) and "partly the evil one" - meaning, there is always a mix of all three in the sovereignty of God working to bring forth His perfect will.

The reformation of the modern state of Israel as a fruit of the holocaust is a result, in my viewpoint, of all three factors working in concert under the leadership of God in His orchestration of history. God's leadership above all, man's choices in free will, and demonic rage fueling unspeakable evil, all coalesced to do the "impossible", as it were - resurrecting a nation that had been long forgotten and, in the minds of many around the world, rightfully so.

To say that God was not at work at all in the reformation of the modern state of Israel is to ignore the incredible obstacles that had to be removed, particularly those that hide within the hearts of men in their rage against God and the people that He chose. David Pawson calls it "the scandal of particularity". The problem is that, if God was at work in the reformation of a Jewish political state, then that fact alone causes major theological train wrecks for pretty much everyone that would ponder why God would do such a thing - regardless of the certainty that many modern evangelical Christians carry on either side of the debate.

Just my $.02.

I've got a few other thoughts on this subject - it's a huge one - but I'll hold off a bit since I haven't posted in a while and I can't empty ALL my theological bullets in one post :lol:

Fenris
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:38 PM
So you don't see a connection? If the modern state of Israel is outside of God's will, why the blessings?
Nothing is outside of God's will.

the rookie
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:42 PM
Nothing is outside of God's will.

Not to be argumentative, but wouldn't sin (disobedience) technically be outside of God's will? Surely it can't be within the boundaries of God's will for men to commit unspeakable atrocities (i.e. pedophilia, human trafficking, abortion, etc.).

This is, for sure, a separate thread - but surely there are actions and activities of man that cross the boundaries of God's will, which require judgment and punishment?

Fenris
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:47 PM
In my opinion, modern Israel is a fruit of "partly God" (divine sovereignty and the beginnings of the fulfillment of OT prophecies and promises), "partly man" (a "work of the flesh" by which men, apart from God (some anti-Semitic and some very wicked) moved either "wittingly" or "unwittingly" / unknowingly to enact God's will) and "partly the evil one" - meaning, there is always a mix of all three in the sovereignty of God working to bring forth His perfect will. I think that this is a very interesting point, and I won't dispute your contention as far as the makeup of the activity. But I want to point out that God referred to Cyrus, the king of Persia as "My anointed". This means that God can use human beings as instruments of His will (and I would argue that He always does, but that's a separate issue). So in that sense even Balfour and the UN were instruments of His will, which would mean that Israel is all "from God".

Fenris
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:50 PM
Not to be argumentative, but wouldn't sin (disobedience) technically be outside of God's will? Surely it can't be within the boundaries of God's will for men to commit unspeakable atrocities (i.e. pedophilia, human trafficking, abortion, etc.).
You might find this shocking, but I believe that even the Holocaust was God's will. That doesn't mean that the Nazis will be rewarded. God wanted the six million to die, for whatever reason, and the Nazis volunteered to do it.

the rookie
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:55 PM
I think that this is a very interesting point, and I won't dispute your contention as far as the makeup of the activity. But I want to point out that God referred to Cyrus, the king of Persia as "My anointed". This means that God can use human beings as instruments of His will (and I would argue that He always does, but that's a separate issue). So in that sense even Balfour and the UN were instruments of His will, which would mean that Israel is all "from God".

Absolutely - but as I noted above, there has to be room for actions and activities of men that exceed the boundaries of God's will for true justice or righteous judgments to be expressed; otherwise God's judgment of Nineveh and Babylon related to their treatment of Israel and Judah (which He ordained and orchestrated) seems, well, cruel.

Yet it seemed as if both nations exceeded the "boundaries" of His will in executing His judgments (as expressed by the prophets - Nahum, for example) and thus could be rightly (and righteously) judged. To me, it seems a more stunning display of His sovereignty that He allows (an extension of His will, of course) wicked men to go their way (to a measure) in a manner that violates His law - yet all the while they are moving in a manner that produces the exact outcome He wanted; yet He is perfectly just and blameless in the midst of it all.

Fenris
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:57 PM
Absolutely - but as I noted above, there has to be room for actions and activities of men that exceed the boundaries of God's will for true justice or righteous judgments to be expressed; otherwise God's judgment of Nineveh and Babylon related to their treatment of Israel and Judah (which He ordained and orchestrated) seems, well, cruel.
True. And also remember: people volunteer for their mission, whether it be a good one or a bad one.

keck553
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:58 PM
You might find this shocking, but I believe that even the Holocaust was God's will. That doesn't mean that the Nazis will be rewarded. God wanted the six million to die, for whatever reason, and the Nazis volunteered to do it.

This parallels many Biblical events, Esther comes to mind (at least with the intent) although 6 million in one event is probably a record. Personally I think it was more like 10 million. All those Russians weren't just "Russians" you know....

I don't remember all of them, but it seems to me that Rome killed millions of Jews circa 70-120, and if you want to count Gentile actions from anti-semitism over the past 2000 years, I think the numbers would be astounding.

the rookie
Apr 22nd 2009, 04:58 PM
You might find this shocking, but I believe that even the Holocaust was God's will. That doesn't mean that the Nazis will be rewarded. God wanted the six million to die, for whatever reason, and the Nazis volunteered to do it.

I don't find it shocking at all, since you said as much in your succinct post above. But did God appoint, empower, and motivate the Nazis or did they truly (and freely) "volunteer" to execute the will of God? Did they execute His will in the details - in other words, did they express God's will in the way
that they tortured and killed six million Jews?

Were the actions and activities of the Nazis just or unjust?

keck553
Apr 22nd 2009, 05:03 PM
I don't find it shocking at all, since you said as much in your succinct post above. But did God appoint, empower, and motivate the Nazis or did they truly (and freely) "volunteer" to execute the will of God? Did they execute His will in the details - in other words, did they express God's will in the way
that they tortured and killed six million Jews?

Were the actions and activities of the Nazis just or unjust?

God probably hardened their hearts (gave them strength to continue their disobedience) just like He did Pharoah's rebellious heart.

Fenris
Apr 22nd 2009, 05:04 PM
I don't find it shocking at all, since you said as much in your succinct post above. But did God appoint, empower, and motivate the Nazis or did they truly (and freely) "volunteer" to execute the will of God? If we have free will, then they volunteered.

Now, there is a Talmudic dictum that when God creates a "stick" to punish the Jewish people with, He first raises them up so as not to add insult to injury. And if we look at history, indeed, all of the mass killers of Jews were superpowers. So perhaps God, knowing the future, knew that the Nazis would volunteer and so gave them the means to do so?


Did they execute His will in the details - in other words, did they express God's will in the way that they tortured and killed six million Jews? I think it's pretty obvious they went overboard. Way overboard.


Were the actions and activities of the Nazis just or unjust?
Unjust. And they would have been so even if they didn't go overboard.

In a more general sense, all of our actions further God's plan. The only thing we have control over is when we further His plan, are we getting closer to Him? Or driving ourselves away from Him?

the rookie
Apr 22nd 2009, 05:05 PM
True. And also remember: people volunteer for their mission, whether it be a good one or a bad one.

Ah. I should have read this before posting my above response. :D

Yes, and woe to those who volunteer for the bad ones (external and internal, which included Jeroboam, Jehu, etc.)

The reason that I included the above two "internal" guys is knit to the manner in which they misinterpreted the nature of God's will related to the political state of Israel (the theme of the discussion thread); they were far more patriotic and nationalistic (loyal to nation) than they were truly loyal to God - which would have meant loyalty to God's covenant with David and his line, which is what Hosea and Amos pointed out with zeal (specifically in Hosea 1 and Amos 9).

I find that modern evangelical Christians make the same mistake today - one "team" overdoing the "loyalty to America" point that is knit to the founding father's (and their fathers) worldview; its the same worldview that caused the Catholics to labor for the primacy of Rome and Calvin to labor for Geneva vs. looking to Jerusalem. The other "team" tends to overdo loyalty to the modern state of Israel and forget about some of the implications of God's zeal for Zion expressed through the prophet Zechariah.

Fenris
Apr 22nd 2009, 05:07 PM
God probably hardened their hearts (gave them strength to continue their disobedience) just like He did Pharoah's rebellious heart.
Possibly. I think at a certain point God isn't interested in repentance any longer. When someone like Pharaoh or Hitler goes too far down the wrong path, their fate is sealed.

keck553
Apr 22nd 2009, 05:08 PM
What nation who ever rose up with murderous intent against Israel or the Jews remains intact in their former glory? Babylon? Egypt? Rome? Germany? Not sure we'll find even one.

the rookie
Apr 22nd 2009, 05:10 PM
If we have free will, then they volunteered.

Now, there is a Talmudic dictum that when God creates a "stick" to punish the Jewish people with, He first raises them up so as not to add insult to injury. And if we look at history, indeed, all of the mass killers of Jews were superpowers. So perhaps God, knowing the future, knew that the Nazis would volunteer and so gave them the means to do so?

That is the shocking piece of information in Daniel's visions that caused him to be physically ill and greatly troubled after watching them - that the coming crisis for His people, by which God would "shatter their power" (Dan 12), would be one in which God Himself would actually give authority to their enemy to "wear them down" (Daniel 7).


I think it's pretty obvious they went overboard. Way overboard.

Agreed. That, in my opinion, is the "demonized men" part of the equation, or the work of the evil one - not the will of God at all.


Unjust. And they would have been so even if they didn't go overboard.

Agreed.


In a more general sense, all of our actions further God's plan. The only thing we have control over is when we further His plan, are we getting closer to Him? Or driving ourselves away from Him?

Great point, and a great question.

Fenris
Apr 22nd 2009, 05:14 PM
What nation who ever rose up with murderous intent against Israel or the Jews remains intact in their former glory? Babylon? Egypt? Rome? Germany? Not sure we'll find even one.
Well, that is a corollary. When your mission is done you will be much diminished. If you wish to remain great don't pick fights with God.

Fenris
Apr 22nd 2009, 05:17 PM
That is the shocking piece of information in Daniel's visions that caused him to be physically ill and greatly troubled after watching them - that the coming crisis for His people, by which God would "shatter their power" (Dan 12), would be one in which God Himself would actually give authority to their enemy to "wear them down" (Daniel 7).


Indeed. Alas, it's been a long 25 centuries since his prophecies. But since I (obviously) believe that Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy, the end is not too far off. May we live to see it.

Diggindeeper
Apr 22nd 2009, 05:38 PM
Is the modern-day state of Israel a fulfillment of prophecy?

Is it one of these things that just happens outside of God's will?

Is the answer unknown/unknowable?

Well, it does appear the modern-day state of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy. But I've always had one question in my mind.

Why, why, was it named "Israel" rather than "Judah"? Israel of old was the kingdom that rebelled and was enemy to Judah. It was the kingdom of evil rulers like Ahab and Jezebel. Of course their wicked daughter, Atheliah, brought Idol worship into the Kingdom of Judah and finally, after all kinds of conniving, manipulative acts became the actual ruler of the kingdom. She was as bad if not worse than her Mama, Queen Jezebel of Israel.

So I don't get the reasoning behind naming it "Israel." Anyone know why it was decided to rename it Israel instead of Judah?

1 Kings 12:
19 So Israel rebelled against the house of David unto this day.

20 And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only.

I didn't vote yet, because the naming of "Israel" has always caused a question mark in my head. :dunno:

Fenris
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:14 PM
Why, why, was it named "Israel" rather than "Judah"?
All Jews are descended from Israel i.e. Jacob (or converts, but that's a separate issue), but not all Jews are descended from Judah.

But you're going to get hung up on the name?

Diggindeeper
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:22 PM
Well Fenris, things like this that I have studied keep me wondering:

Kings of Israel
Jeroboam, bad, 930-909 BC
Nadab, bad, 909-908 BC
Baasha, bad, 908-886 BC
Elah, bad, 886-885 BC
Zimri, bad, 885 BC
Tibni, bad, 885-880 BC
Omri (overlap), extra bad, 885-874 BC
Ahab, the worst, 874-853 BC
Ahaziah, bad, 853-852 BC
Joram, bad mostly, 852-841 BC
Jehu, not good but better than the rest, 841-814 BC
Jehoahaz, bad, 814-798 BC
Joash, bad, 798-782 BC
Jeroboam II (overlap), bad, 793-753 BC
Zechariah, bad, 753 BC
Shallum, bad, 752 BC
Menahem, bad, 752-742 BC
Pekahiah, bad, 742-740 BC
Pekah (overlap), bad, 752-732 BC
Hoshea, bad, 732-722 BC

Fenris
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:25 PM
Well Fenris, things like this that I have studied keep me wondering:

I don't get it. So they named it Israel because they are bad? Or they want to be bad?

Diggindeeper
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:32 PM
No. I just wonder why the name Israel. I suppose I associated the name with the rulers that "Israel" had in the past, as shown above in my post with the Kings names.

Fenris
Apr 22nd 2009, 06:36 PM
No. I just wonder why the name Israel.
Because it was called that in biblical times. Not just the Northern 10 tribes, but the whole country.

IBWatching
Apr 22nd 2009, 07:02 PM
...Why, why, was it named "Israel" rather than "Judah"? Israel of old was the kingdom that rebelled and was enemy to Judah. It was the kingdom of evil rulers like Ahab and Jezebel. Of course their wicked daughter, Atheliah, brought Idol worship into the Kingdom of Judah and finally, after all kinds of conniving, manipulative acts became the actual ruler of the kingdom. She was as bad if not worse than her Mama, Queen Jezebel of Israel.

So I don't get the reasoning behind naming it "Israel." Anyone know why it was decided to rename it Israel instead of Judah?...

Israel was never renamed. It was always Israel. Israel was another name for Jacob. Judah was one of Jacob's sons. In Jewish tradition, the son never takes precedence over the father. This is why Jesus confronted the Jewish leaders about the "riddle" David gave concerning his descendant who would take his throne and be his "lord". It just didn't make sense that a descendant would be greater than his ancestor. Once the Holy Spirit came into Peter, he solved the riddle (Acts 2). It was Jesus who would sit on David's throne, as his body saw no corruption.

In regards to the kingdoms, Judah was always the spokesman for Jacob's sons. That tribe followed David, God's newly anointed, when it was clear that Saul had fallen from God's favor. Thus it was Judah who broke from Israel and not the other way around. There were a number of advantages to the southern land which allowed Judah to outlast Israel by 135 years. All 19 kings of Judah were descendants of David. And of course Jesus Christ was/is a descendant of Judah through David's son, Nathan.

Judah becoming it's own kingdom is to me a picture of Jesus Christ. Today Israel is just Israel with all the tribes. But their final King will come from Judah, repeating the picture from the OT.

keck553
Apr 22nd 2009, 08:05 PM
Possibly. I think at a certain point God isn't interested in repentance any longer. When someone like Pharaoh or Hitler goes too far down the wrong path, their fate is sealed.

I've heard Scripture that supports that concept. I just can't remember where it is. I think it's in the OT.

RabbiKnife
Apr 22nd 2009, 08:13 PM
I've heard Scripture that supports that concept. I just can't remember where it is. I think it's in the OT.

See Pharoah.

Some passage says "the spirit of God will not always strive with man." Somewhere....

keck553
Apr 22nd 2009, 08:17 PM
Why, why, was it named "Israel" rather than "Judah"?

Probably because God created it.

arc111
Jul 31st 2011, 01:40 AM
One reason that Modern Israel is of God is that before 1948, there were Bible teachers who were insistent that Israel MUST be restored before the 'time of the end'.

Before Darby and Scoffield popularized the plan, it was already prevelant among Bible students.

Spurgeon and Augustine have both been previously quoted. Here is the analysis of Sir Isaac Newton's views of Israel:

Newton’s Comments on the Prophecies of Israel’s Return to the Holy Land
CNN recently posted an article about Sir Isaac Newton on their website titled “Papers show Isaac Newton’s religious side”:
“Newton interpreted biblical prophecies to mean that the Jews would return to the Holy Land before the world ends. The end of days will see ‘the ruin of the wicked nations, the end of weeping and all troubles, the return of the Jews captivity and their setting up a flourishing and everlasting Kingdom’” (CNN.com, posted 1:46pm EDT, June 18, 2007) (actual Newton reference is Yehuda MS. 6, folio 12-19)
Newton’s actual writings regarding the gathering and restoration of Israel:
“…the final return of the Jews captivity and their conquering the nations of the four Monarchies and setting up a (peaceable) righteous and flourishing kingdom at the day of judgment is this mystery.”
“…both described by Ezekiel chap 38 and 39 where he represents how the Jews after their return from captivity dwell safely and quietly upon the mountains of Israel in unwalled towns without either gates or barrs to defend them untill they are grown very rich in Cattel and gold and silver and goods and Gog of the land of Magog stirs up the nations round about, Persia and Arabia and Afric and the northern nations of Asia and Europe against them to take a spoile, and God destroys (18) all that great army, that the nations may from thenceforth know that the Jews went formerly into captivity for their sins but now since their return are become invincible by their holiness.”
(Yahuda MS. 6, folio 12-19 – bolding added for emphasis)
“Hence I observe these things, first that the restauration of the Jewish nation so much spoken of by the old Prophets respects not the few Jews who were converted in the Apostles days, but the dispersed nation of the unbelieving Jews to be converted in the end when the fullness of the Gentiles shall enter, that is when the Gospel (upon the fall of Babylon) shall begin to be preached to all nations. Secondly that the prophecies of Isaiah described above by being here cited by the Apostle is limited to respect the time of the future conversion and restitution of the Jewish Nation, and thirdly that the humour which has long reigned among the Christians of boasting our selves against the Jews, and insulting over them for their not believing, is reprehended by the Apostle for high –mindedness and self-conceipt, and much more is our using them despightfully, Pharisaicall and impious” (Yehuda MS.9.2, folio158 - bolding added for emphasis)
Sources:
“Sir Isaac Newton Theological Manuscripts” by H. Mclachlan
“The Religion of Isaac Newton” by Frank E. Manuel

This particular view was probably against Newton's contemporary 'church' theology. Most of his writings are from his own personal study notes.

Point being: before Israel became a nation a consistent flow of Bible students ascertained that it was absolutely prophecied to happen. Against the odds, and against the prevaling anti-Zion attitudes, IT MIRACULOUSLY HAPPENED! This prophecy was not 'backed into', it was predicted to literally happen and it did!

shepherdsword
Jul 31st 2011, 01:25 PM
Is the modern-day state of Israel a fulfillment of prophecy?

Yes


Is it one of these things that just happens outside of God's will?

No


Is the answer unknown/unknowable?

The reality of it speaks for itself. It is strange that some cannot see God's hand in this. However,I think such an admission that it is God would disrupt their eschatology model.