PDA

View Full Version : Why claim you are saved ?



fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 02:10 PM
i noticed lots of "i am saved" talk

i guess the one thing i never got is people saying they are saved. its like running on the field in the second quarter of a football game and saying you won.

do you jump in a boxing ring and shout i just knocked you out, even before the fight begins ?

when you finish the race and endure till the end, then let god say your saved.

we have started the race but we havent finished, so make sure pride doesnt lead you into saying you are saved.

he that endures till the END
here are just a few scriptures

Matthew 10:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=22&version=9&context=verse)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 10:21-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=21&end_verse=23&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 24:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:12-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=12&end_verse=14&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 13:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Fenris
Aug 6th 2008, 02:12 PM
I'm curious. When you say 'few are chosen', do you expect to be one of the few?

apothanein kerdos
Aug 6th 2008, 02:32 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot that we were saved by works.

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 02:34 PM
Salvation appears to be a past present and future event. Do not neglect the scriptures that suggest something other than a future event. To be biblically precise we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved.


Past Tense
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Rom 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

2Ti 1:8-9 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,



Present Tense
Act 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

2Co 2:15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,


When concerning something as important as salvation, please study the scriptures completely before saying something that might be a stumbling block to a new believer...

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 02:36 PM
I'm curious. When you say 'few are chosen', do you expect to be one of the few?


i dont expect anything as far as choosing, god chooses who he wants so it would be foolish for me to expect to be picked, i am not the judge.

now i have been chosen to know god and christ, but here is some scripture



20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

so now i have to watch myself, i dont doubt my ability to stray from god, i find myself choosing sin too often, i choose evil then think wow i am so not gonna be in heaven, so for me personally its a WAR . my flesh is warring with my spirit, i dont know the outcome of the war, i just know i must fight with all my strength, lest my end be worse than my start

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 02:39 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot that we were saved by works.

This is the kind of thing that happens when you start out a theological study with too many presuppositions. You make the Bible conform to your beliefs instead of you conforming your beliefs to the Bible.

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 02:45 PM
lets look at a scripture you posted closer, look what you highlite and look what you leave out.

1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.


look at the HUGE IF , if if if --- if you hold fast, can i stress again if

so before you start telling people its all good and they are saved and can feel comfy, its people who preach all this your saved stuff that causes people to relax into it and not worry for they have been told they are saved.

so when something is important as salvation dont give people a false sense of security, clear clear scripture, he who endures till the end shall be saved,

its like god tosses you a life raft and says your saved if you dont take a knife and poke a hole in it, but your free to take a knife and poke a hole in it if you want

apothanein kerdos
Aug 6th 2008, 02:49 PM
This is the kind of thing that happens when you start out a theological study with too many presuppositions. You make the Bible conform to your beliefs instead of you conforming your beliefs to the Bible.

Is that aimed toward me or the OP?

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 02:58 PM
we are not saved by works who said that, we are saved by god, but then we can kill ourselves with our works.


21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Rullion Green
Aug 6th 2008, 03:01 PM
i noticed lots of "i am saved" talk

i guess the one thing i never got is people saying they are saved. its like running on the field in the second quarter of a football game and saying you won.

do you jump in a boxing ring and shout i just knocked you out, even before the fight begins ?

when you finish the race and endure till the end, then let god say your saved.

we have started the race but we havent finished, so make sure pride doesnt lead you into saying you are saved.

he that endures till the END


here are just a few scriptures
Matthew 10:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=22&version=9&context=verse)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 10:21-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=21&end_verse=23&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 24:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:12-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=12&end_verse=14&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 13:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


All of the above are Good points to remember :)

I dont presume anything and try to remain humble but we can have confidence not arrogance that Phill 1:6 applies to us also, as do the verses you mention. Note the confidence is in the Lord not ourselves. But yeah i agree with your point.


Phill 6:1
He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 6th 2008, 03:03 PM
we are not saved by works who said that, we are saved by god, but then we can kill ourselves with our works.


21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Ah, so we're saved by works.

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 03:10 PM
Ah, so we're saved by works.

nope god save us , our works can kill us

your stuck in the ocean, drowning, you cant save yourself

god throws you a raft -- he saved you not you

you take a knife and deflate the raft - your works killed you

you cannot throw yourself a raft - you cannot save yourself

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 03:11 PM
It wasn't aimed at you AK.


FewAreChosen,
You pick one?!?! I posted 11 scriptures and you pick one?!?!? What praytell do you do with the other ones, particularly the PAST TENSE ones???:B

apothanein kerdos
Aug 6th 2008, 03:11 PM
nope god save us , our works can kill us

your stuck in the ocean, drowning, you cant save yourself

god throws you a raft -- he saved you not you

you take a knife and deflate the raft - your works killed you

you cannot throw yourself a raft - you cannot save yourself

Ah, I get it now. You're saying that works ultimately save us.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 6th 2008, 03:12 PM
It wasn't aimed at you AK.


FewAreChosen,
You pick one?!?! I posted 11 scriptures and you pick one?!?!? What praytell do you do with the other ones, particularly the PAST TENSE ones???:B

When we forget grace, we have to pick one verse out of many.

Looks like you and I have something we agree on. :)

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 03:12 PM
Ah, I get it now. You're saying that works ultimately save us.


not at all no works caused us to get a raft thrown to us

where do you get that ?

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 03:13 PM
Looks like you and I have something we agree on. :)

It's a start...:D

I am sure we agree on a host of topics, but those make for some boring conversations...:lol:

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 03:15 PM
not at all no works caused us to get a raft thrown to us

god throws you a raft -- he saved you not you

Even in your speech you are speaking past tense... Is that pride sneaking in???:rofl:

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 03:22 PM
Even in your speech you are speaking past tense... Is that pride sneaking in???:rofl:

i address your past tense issue right there,

but notice you cut out the part where you deflate your own raft, then you arent saved anymore, thats why its future present and past tense, you have to run the race to the finish.

endure till the end

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 03:29 PM
The topic of discussion is not on whether or not we should endure it is why do we say that we are saved. Your simple answer is because the Bible says so, but you want to ignore those parts of the Bible.

In case you missed them...

Past Tense
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Rom 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

2Ti 1:8-9 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Unless you can explain away ALL of these scriptures (or even try for that matter), your argument does not have a leg to stand on...

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 03:31 PM
then you arent saved anymore


You did it again...:rofl:

To say "you aren't saved anymore" requires to you have been saved at some point in the PAST...

Salvation is past, present and future tense.

Toymom
Aug 6th 2008, 03:37 PM
salvation is a process
it is past, present and future

i have been saved - in my human spirit
i am being saved - in my soul
i will be saved - in my body

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 03:39 PM
urban do you know beyond any doubt that when you die you will be in heaven ?

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 03:41 PM
salvation is a process
it is past, present and future

i have been saved - in my human spirit
i am being saved - in my soul
i will be saved - in my body

good post well put

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 03:46 PM
urban Do You Know Beyond Any Doubt That When You Die You Will Be In Heaven ?

Absolutely!!! Without any Doubt...

ProjectPeter
Aug 6th 2008, 03:52 PM
Why do you guys think Paul penned these words?

Colossians 1:19 *For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him,
20 *and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
21 *And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 *yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach --
23 *if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Who is he speaking to?

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 03:52 PM
Absolutely!!! Without any Doubt...

and that says it all

notice you dont even say if i abide in him till the end

you judge your outcome, i wish you luck with that

Friend of I AM
Aug 6th 2008, 03:52 PM
i noticed lots of "i am saved" talk

i guess the one thing i never got is people saying they are saved. its like running on the field in the second quarter of a football game and saying you won.

do you jump in a boxing ring and shout i just knocked you out, even before the fight begins ?

when you finish the race and endure till the end, then let god say your saved.

we have started the race but we havent finished, so make sure pride doesnt lead you into saying you are saved.

he that endures till the END


here are just a few scriptures
Matthew 10:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=22&version=9&context=verse)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 10:21-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=21&end_verse=23&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 24:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:12-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=12&end_verse=14&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 13:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


I do think people need to be careful about being too presumptuous regarding God's will, still I think it's good and scriptural for people to attest to having an assurance of their salvation in Christ. Some do this by saying "I'm saved" others do it by preaching other things, whatever the case - I think God looks at the heart and doesn't get too caught up with words.

Still, it's always good to test ourselves though, to see if we are walking the faith, or even better do as King David did, and ask God to test us. You find that many of the great men in the bible, at times questioned(or better word is tested) their faith in Christ at times(excluding Christ of course who is the savior).

Fortunately when we lack faith, he is still faithful. So going before the throne with confidence(in Christ and his promises) without being too prideful and telling God that one has already entered paradise I think is a balanced way of approaching God.

In Christ,

Stephen

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 03:59 PM
Sorry, did not notice it was a different poster...

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 04:03 PM
and that says it all

notice you dont even say if i abide in him till the end

you judge your outcome, i wish you luck with that

I am not judging my outcome at all. God does, and because Jesus paid the price once and for all for my sins, I am declared righteous before my Father.

If you don't know that you are saved, what exactly is it that you have faith in???

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 04:04 PM
see if someone asks me if i am saved

i say something to the effect of -- if i abide in what he taught me till the end

because i feel to many people are judging their outcome, they drop the present tense and future tense and cling only to past tense, thinking they have already endured till the end.

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 04:07 PM
...and that puts salvation in your lap, not God's...


because i feel to many people are judging their outcome, they drop the present tense and future tense and cling only to past tense, thinking they have already endured till the end.

Your feelings have no bearing on scripture whatsoever. Like I said, when we start a theological study with too many presuppositions, we conform the Bible to our beliefs (or feelings) instead of conforming our beliefs (or feelings) to the Bible.

What you have done is changed the gospel because of your fears of others buy into "easy believism", "greasy grace" or whatever you want to call it. The gospel simply is whether we "feel" it, believe it, like it, or hate it. It simply is.

ProjectPeter
Aug 6th 2008, 04:07 PM
I am not judging my outcome at all. God does, and because Jesus paid the price once and for all for my sins, I am declared righteous before my Father.

If you don't know that you are saved, what exactly is it that you have faith in???
If you are already saved... why do you need faith? ;) Do you need faith for something you already have? Do you hope for something when that something is already yours?

The post I made on Colosians may have gotten missed so let me post another.

Romans 8:12 *¶So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh --
13 *for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 *For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 *For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
16 *The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 *and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him.
18 *¶For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
19 *For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 *For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 *that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22 *For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23 *And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24 *For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees?
25 *But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

I highlighted a bit there so folks can see the part I am speaking of in what I just asked above.

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 04:11 PM
urban you totally judged your outcome, i asked if you knew beyond any doubt if you would be in heaven when you died.

you said yes, you judged yourself as worthy of heaven, even before you finished the race.

i have faith that god promised me if i abide in him i will be saved, but i can choose not to.

23 *if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 04:12 PM
Ummmmm.... maybe you missed my first post...:B


Salvation appears to be a past present and future event. Do not neglect the scriptures that suggest something other than a future event. To be biblically precise we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved.


That would account for ALL of your verses that you can possibly throw out. Why is it you guys continue to ignore the 10 scriptures that I posted???

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 04:17 PM
you said yes, you judged yourself as worthy of heaven, even before you finished the race.


..and there is where you miss the ENTIRE point of the gospel. I KNOW I will see my savior one day face to face. I also KNOW just as strongly that there is nothing about me, nor will there ever be, worthy of heaven. I am getting in because HE was worthy.

If you think when you take your last breath and have finished the race that you yourself are worthy of heaven then you are mistaken and preaching/teaching a heresy, period. The Bible says that the very best righteousness that we can muster in and of ourselves is like used tampons to God.

Slug1
Aug 6th 2008, 04:19 PM
i noticed lots of "i am saved" talk

i guess the one thing i never got is people saying they are saved. its like running on the field in the second quarter of a football game and saying you won.

do you jump in a boxing ring and shout i just knocked you out, even before the fight begins ?

when you finish the race and endure till the end, then let god say your saved.

we have started the race but we havent finished, so make sure pride doesnt lead you into saying you are saved.

he that endures till the END

here are just a few scriptures
Matthew 10:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=22&version=9&context=verse)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 10:21-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=21&end_verse=23&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 24:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:12-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=12&end_verse=14&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 13:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Ya know, with this thought process... I wonder why on the other end are there debates for OSAS vs NOSAS :rolleyes: :lol:

Now I'll read through the thread ;)

calidog
Aug 6th 2008, 04:30 PM
Why claim you are saved ?
i noticed lots of "i am saved" talk

i guess the one thing i never got is people saying they are saved. its like running on the field in the second quarter of a football game and saying you won.

do you jump in a boxing ring and shout i just knocked you out, even before the fight begins ?

when you finish the race and endure till the end, then let god say your saved.

we have started the race but we havent finished, so make sure pride doesnt lead you into saying you are saved.

he that endures till the END
here are just a few scriptures
Matthew 10:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=22&version=9&context=verse)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 10:21-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=21&end_verse=23&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 24:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:12-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=12&end_verse=14&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 13:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


It appears that it is a done deal (past tense)
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Looks like we're saved

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 04:38 PM
suprising how man feel they have already endured till the end.

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 04:46 PM
No, we don't. He can. He did. He will.

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 04:50 PM
Matthew 10:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=22&version=9&context=verse)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.


i get it now this is how this scripture should read

and ye shall be hated of all men for my names sake: but you will endure to the end for you are saved

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 04:56 PM
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

I guess that one don't count...:B

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 04:59 PM
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

I guess that one don't count...:B


as much as this doesnt count

Matthew 10:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=22&version=9&context=verse)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

he could have said you will endure till the end, you know that right ?

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 05:14 PM
Notice it says HE and not YOU... I wonder why...:hmm:

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 05:16 PM
Notice it says HE and not YOU... I wonder why...:hmm:

oh now i see how you work around it

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 05:22 PM
22 *yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach --
23 *if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


here is the scripture PP quoted

notice it alreasy says he has now reconciled you, then goes on to say --if indeed you continue

he does not say you were reconciled and now you will indeed continue

he says if, i saw you confused on who he was in the last one so i help this clears up who the he is talking about -- its you

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 05:26 PM
My veiw accounts for all of your scriptures. I admit that part of salvation is indeed a future event. Your view accounts for NONE of mine. Continuing to ignore the other 10 scriptures I provided does not help your case, nor is it intellectually honest.

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 05:29 PM
no it doesnt you leave no room for --ifs

i say we are saved if we abide in what he taught us

that covers future past and present

you say you are saved and that those ifs and endure till the end dont really count

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 05:35 PM
Ok. I am going to have to break four year old here...

Account for those ten scriptures that say otherwise...

Friend of I AM
Aug 6th 2008, 05:55 PM
I am not judging my outcome at all. God does, and because Jesus paid the price once and for all for my sins, I am declared righteous before my Father.

If you don't know that you are saved, what exactly is it that you have faith in???

You know what's interesting is that the Apostle Paul states that "I wish I were cut off, so that others would be saved."(paraphrasing) Perhaps we should all have an attitude like this when going forward in our walk. Our lord and savior himself, took a walk of darkness knowing that he'd be condemned for things he didn't do. So perhaps our ultimate walk, despite not entirely knowing the outcome, should be reminiscent of Jesus and Paul's.

In Christ,

Stephen

chal
Aug 6th 2008, 05:56 PM
I understand your point as well, but would add that both ways of rendering our status as Christians "saved," or "being saved," are valid. It's either two different perspectives to view the same thing from, and/or two different ways of phrasing the same basic thought.

Exegeses Parallel Bible

Acts 2:46 And continuing daily in unanimity
in the priestal precinct,
and breaking bread from house to house,
they partake their nourishment
in jumping for joy and simplicity of heart,
47 halaling Elohim
and having charism with all the people:
and Adonay adds those being saved
to the ecclesia daily.

Green's Literal Translation

47 praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church those being saved from day to day.
EMTV

47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to the church daily those who were being saved.

KJV

47 <3588> Praising <134> God <3588> <2316> , and <2532> having <2192> favour <5485> with <4314> all <3650> the people <3588> <2992> . And <1161> the Lord <2962> added <4369> to the church <3588> <1577> daily <2250> such <3588> as <2596> should be saved <4982> .

ProjectPeter
Aug 6th 2008, 05:57 PM
Ok. I am going to have to break four year old here...

Account for those ten scriptures that say otherwise...
They really don't say otherwise. ;) They say that you are saved by faith in Christ. Paul explained that very well in that Romans passage if you care to actually discuss Scripture as opposed to going tit for tat like that four year old you're speaking of. ;)

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 06:09 PM
If you would look at them... they say HAVE BEEN and ARE BEING not will be. How do you account for that?

apothanein kerdos
Aug 6th 2008, 06:15 PM
not at all no works caused us to get a raft thrown to us

where do you get that ?

Ah....so our works cause us to accept salvation. I get it now...you're saying our works save us.

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 06:17 PM
to return to the life raft scenrio

he tosses you the life raft and tells you --your saved--- if you dont jump off it

here is the danger of only preaching you are saved, and not teaching the whole endureth till the end part

when a new person comes to christ, and someone convinces them they are saved this is what i have seen many times.

they think im saved, then they sin, then they think good thing im saved so this sin doesnt hurt me, then it gives them mental leway because they are thinking well it really doesnt matter when i sin because im saved, i call on his name so its all good. they are taught they cant turn away from salvation, and then they think that it gives them a license to sin, i just masturbated - good thing im saved, i just did evil towards my brother- good thing im saved, i just commited adultry - good thing im saved.

we work out our salvation through fear and trembling, not feel good you are saved doctrine

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 06:19 PM
If you would look at them... they say HAVE BEEN and ARE BEING not will be. How do you account for that?

you have been saved, he gave you the life raft

now dont jump off

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 06:22 PM
Ah....so our works cause us to accept salvation. I get it now...you're saying our works save us.

nope again - we are saved through faith not works

our works can reject salvation not accept it

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 06:22 PM
here is the danger of only preaching you are saved, and not teaching the whole endureth till the end part


PLEASE show me one post that suggests that we preach anything like that. Otherwise, you are just building a strawman...

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 06:25 PM
nope again - we are saved through faith not works

our works can reject salvation not accept it

Your works have NOTHING to do with your salvation, period. I will agree that if someone is truly saved that they will not be able to help but to work, but it does not have ANYTHING to do with causing or Ensuring salvation. Endure to the end is referring to FAITH. Anything other than that is a heresy, period.

I do good works BECAUSE I am saved, not so I can CONTINUE to be saved... That is salvation by works.

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 06:27 PM
PLEASE show me one scripture that says "our works can reject salvation " once we have gotten on the proverbial life raft...

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 06:31 PM
PLEASE show me one scripture that says "our works can reject salvation " once we have gotten on the proverbial life raft...

here you go just dont do these things

23 *if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

dont continue in faith, let yourself be moved away from hope

ProjectPeter
Aug 6th 2008, 06:32 PM
If you would look at them... they say HAVE BEEN and ARE BEING not will be. How do you account for that?
Why would you "are being" if in fact you already are?

Whispering Grace
Aug 6th 2008, 06:33 PM
they think im saved, then they sin, then they think good thing im saved so this sin doesnt hurt me, then it gives them mental leway because they are thinking well it really doesnt matter when i sin because im saved, i call on his name so its all good. they are taught they cant turn away from salvation, and then they think that it gives them a license to sin, i just masturbated - good thing im saved, i just did evil towards my brother- good thing im saved, i just commited adultry - good thing im saved.



I would submit that such a person with such an attitude is NOT saved and never was.

The love of Christ constrains us.

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 06:34 PM
here is another one

1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

all you have to do is not hold fast, thats a work, you can let go, he lets you know right here its possible.

he doesnt say you are being saved, you will hold fast to the word i preached you

he puts a nice fat IF right in there

ProjectPeter
Aug 6th 2008, 06:35 PM
Your works have NOTHING to do with your salvation, period. I will agree that if someone is truly saved that they will not be able to help but to work, but it does not have ANYTHING to do with causing or Ensuring salvation. Endure to the end is referring to FAITH. Anything other than that is a heresy, period.

I do good works BECAUSE I am saved, not so I can CONTINUE to be saved... That is salvation by works.
Well now though... if you say you can't help it then what about the person who can help it and does nothing? Is he/she saved?

tt1106
Aug 6th 2008, 06:37 PM
Phillipians 1:6
I am convinced of this, that the one who began a good work among you will bring it to completion by the Day of the Messiah Jesus.

I believe the promise. I am saved.

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 06:41 PM
is not keeping the faith a work ? arent you in controll of it ?

perhaps i was letting the word work be misused as to how i ment it.

you are in controll of if you have faith or not, if you let go of faith thats your fault not gods.

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 06:43 PM
a thread starts getting good in my opinion when "heresy "starts to get thrown out there, now we are getting somewhere.

besides if im speaking heresy whats the big deal "im saved" i confess christ its all good

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 06:54 PM
is not keeping the faith a work ?


ABSOLUTELY NOT! Paul starkly constrasts faith and works...

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

ProjectPeter
Aug 6th 2008, 06:55 PM
Phillipians 1:6
I am convinced of this, that the one who began a good work among you will bring it to completion by the Day of the Messiah Jesus.

I believe the promise. I am saved.Notice though, Paul didn't use those same words to the church in Galatia. There is a reason for that. ;)

ProjectPeter
Aug 6th 2008, 06:58 PM
ABSOLUTELY NOT! Paul starkly constrasts faith and works...

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,







Paul was talking the works of the Law of Moses there. ;) That's the context of the use of the words "works". It isn't about the works of the Law of Moses. Doing a Romans study in Bible CHat for those interested. Taking our time and only on chapter two right now... but this is when it starts getting good. ;)

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 06:58 PM
ABSOLUTELY NOT! Paul starkly constrasts faith and works...

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,








yea just put my full quote in

is not keeping the faith a work ? arent you in controll of it ?

perhaps i was letting the word work be misused as to how i ment it.

you are in controll of if you have faith or not, if you let go of faith thats your fault not gods.

basically i was asking if you are in controll of your faith or not, you seem to be of the
opinion that you are not http://bibleforums.org/images/misc/progress.gif

ProjectPeter
Aug 6th 2008, 06:59 PM
Your works have NOTHING to do with your salvation, period. I will agree that if someone is truly saved that they will not be able to help but to work, but it does not have ANYTHING to do with causing or Ensuring salvation. Endure to the end is referring to FAITH. Anything other than that is a heresy, period.

I do good works BECAUSE I am saved, not so I can CONTINUE to be saved... That is salvation by works.Why do you think Paul penned these words to Timothy?

1 Timothy 4:16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things; for as you do this you will insure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 07:00 PM
And before you try to say faith is a work based on these two scriptures...

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Here is some background on that particular idiom...

Robertson's Word Pictures -



1 Th 1:3 Your work of faith (humōn tou ergou tēs pisteōs). Note article with both ergou and pisteōs (correlation of the article, both abstract substantives). Ergou is genitive case the object of mnēmoneuontes as is common with verbs of emotion (Robertson, Grammar, pp. 508f.), though the accusative kopon occurs in 1Th_2:9 according to common Greek idiom allowing either case. Ergou is the general term for work or business, employment, task. Note two genitives with ergou. Humōn is the usual possessive genitive, your work, while tēs pisteōs is the descriptive genitive, marked by, characterized by, faith, "the activity that faith inspires" (Frame). It is interesting to note this sharp conjunction of these two words by Paul. We are justified by faith, but faith produces works (Romans 6-8) as the Baptist taught and as Jesus taught and as James does in James 2.

2 Th 1:11 Work of faith (ergon pisteōs). The same phrase in 1Th_1:3. Paul prays for rich fruition of what he had seen in the beginning. Work marked by faith, springs from faith, sustained by faith.

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 07:04 PM
you are in controll of if you have faith or not, if you let go of faith thats your fault not gods.


basically i was asking if you are in controll of your faith or not, you seem to be of the
opinion that you are not


Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


1Co 12:7-9 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

Firefighter
Aug 6th 2008, 07:06 PM
Why do you think Paul penned these words to Timothy?

1 Timothy 4:16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things; for as you do this you will insure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

I am ingorning you until you answer my question about those ten scriptures...

apothanein kerdos
Aug 6th 2008, 07:11 PM
nope again - we are saved through faith not works

our works can reject salvation not accept it

So we're saved by faith...but we have to work at maintaining it.

If I do x (x being a sin) then I'm hell-bound.

Problem is, there are sins of omission as well, such as if I don't do y (say, evangelize) then I'm sinning. You're saying that x can negate our faith and our salvation - so be it (you're wrong, but oh well). The problem with your belief is that it doesn't account for y - if I don't perform y, then I'm not saved.

Therefore, works save us under your belief.

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 07:18 PM
dead faith wont save you


James 2:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:16-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&verse=16&end_verse=18&version=9&context=context) (in Context) James 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
James 2:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&verse=20&version=9&context=verse)
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:19-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&verse=19&end_verse=21&version=9&context=context) (in Context) James 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
James 2:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&verse=26&version=9&context=verse)
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
so your saved through faith, but faith without works is dead.

he could have said god saved you so he gave you faith so you will do works, but again he didnt

ProjectPeter
Aug 6th 2008, 07:20 PM
I am ingorning you until you answer my question about those ten scriptures...
You'll ignore me even if I did (which I did) way back when. ;)

apothanein kerdos
Aug 6th 2008, 07:21 PM
dead faith wont save you


James 2:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:16-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&verse=16&end_verse=18&version=9&context=context) (in Context) James 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
James 2:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&verse=20&version=9&context=verse)
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:19-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&verse=19&end_verse=21&version=9&context=context) (in Context) James 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
James 2:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&verse=26&version=9&context=verse)
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Right, so you're saying our works save us (at least in your misquote of James).

ProjectPeter
Aug 6th 2008, 07:23 PM
How many more post are we going to have guys that just go on and on saying the same thing and making the same barbs? Shoot... at least get more creative! If all you can say is yes you are and or no I'm not (those type post) then you know... nothing much you're saying but just being a bit childish at this point. In other words... let's turn this discussion around into a discussion and not just tit for tat and tat for tit.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 6th 2008, 07:26 PM
I'm merely stating a point that no one has dealt with yet and it's a very valid point.

If any sin can remove grace, then sins of omission must be listed in this category. If such sins are listed in this category, then we have to work in order not to sin. By proxy, we then have to work to get grace or at least to maintain it. This is, by definition, a salvation of works.

If someone would actually like to respond to that, then I'd love to progress in the discussion. The responses, however, have been highly incoherent in that they say we're not saved by works, but if we don't work we're not saved. That's a contradiction.

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 07:31 PM
no problem PP but i think i understand now what i am being told,

god saves us , then gives us faith, then gives us works because we have faith, thus we have already endured till the end. shoot this whole thing is easy i dont know why so many stress it , god does everything for you

i dont get why they have all this scripture and stuff, christ should just have said im doing it all for you, you dont have to do anything.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 6th 2008, 07:35 PM
no problem PP but i think i understand now what i am being told,

god saves us , then gives us faith, then gives us works because we have faith, thus we have already endured till the end. shoot this whole thing is easy i dont know why so many stress it , god does everything for you

i dont get why they have all this scripture and stuff, christ should just have said im doing it all for you, you dont have to do anything.

Even though this is a gross mischaracterization of what I believe...

How is your alternative any better? Your view runs contrary to the Bible because it's salvation by works. Mine teaches that though we act upon our faith, we can still turn away from these actions, yet God is faithful to complete the good work in us (meaning He brings us back).

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 07:36 PM
I'm merely stating a point that no one has dealt with yet and it's a very valid point.

If any sin can remove grace, then sins of omission must be listed in this category. If such sins are listed in this category, then we have to work in order not to sin. By proxy, we then have to work to get grace or at least to maintain it. This is, by definition, a salvation of works.

If someone would actually like to respond to that, then I'd love to progress in the discussion. The responses, however, have been highly incoherent in that they say we're not saved by works, but if we don't work we're not saved. That's a contradiction.

this was covered long ago

1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

so if you dont do those things thats what this scripture covers

again life raft tossed to us -- we didnt save us

god says if you dont stick knife in this raft you will be saved


now we did not save ourselves - we did not throw the raft to ourselves

we have the option of deflating raft

ProjectPeter
Aug 6th 2008, 07:36 PM
I'm merely stating a point that no one has dealt with yet and it's a very valid point.

If any sin can remove grace, then sins of omission must be listed in this category. If such sins are listed in this category, then we have to work in order not to sin. By proxy, we then have to work to get grace or at least to maintain it. This is, by definition, a salvation of works.

If someone would actually like to respond to that, then I'd love to progress in the discussion. The responses, however, have been highly incoherent in that they say we're not saved by works, but if we don't work we're not saved. That's a contradiction.
When Paul was writing about works, he was not speaking of sin. He was speaking of works of the Law and speaking of the Law of Moses. That is why Paul went to great pains in his letters to point out the peril of sin and made it clear when asked about "can we sin" he responded... God forbid! Sin leads to death. Paul made that clear in most every letter that he wrote. You are instead making "works" cover anything and everything and Paul never wrote such as that. That is a great mistake that many do today.

fewarechosen
Aug 6th 2008, 07:40 PM
Even though this is a gross mischaracterization of what I believe...

How is your alternative any better? Your view runs contrary to the Bible because it's salvation by works. Mine teaches that though we act upon our faith, we can still turn away from these actions, yet God is faithful to complete the good work in us (meaning He brings us back).

no your alternative is the one i want, i want the easy i am saved call it good version

i dont want to think that what i do with the gifts god gave me has anything to do with my salvation -- thats way to hard,who wants that respnsability, so by far your alternative is better

Slug1
Aug 6th 2008, 07:50 PM
fewarechosen, this is where I read your posts and see the fruit for what it is (again) and it stinks... get rid of the attitude in your own thread and let's learn from those that are responding to you.

This is just another example of I'm right (you), you're all wrong (all else) and now I'm (you) gonna be sarcastic... get off it or join me (slug1) back in our thread in C2M that is still open.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 6th 2008, 07:52 PM
When Paul was writing about works, he was not speaking of sin. He was speaking of works of the Law and speaking of the Law of Moses. That is why Paul went to great pains in his letters to point out the peril of sin and made it clear when asked about "can we sin" he responded... God forbid! Sin leads to death. Paul made that clear in most every letter that he wrote. You are instead making "works" cover anything and everything and Paul never wrote such as that. That is a great mistake that many do today.

Then what is salvation worth considering we sin every hour of every day? If we so much as think wrongly about God we are sinning (we create an idol when we do this, even if we do not realize it's wrong).

A better interpretation is that when Paul says we're not saved by works, he means we're not saved by works period. Under your definition, one still has to work for salvation, just not the works required by the Law. That's not a salvation worth believing in because it's essentially pagan in nature.

apothanein kerdos
Aug 6th 2008, 08:03 PM
no your alternative is the one i want, i want the easy i am saved call it good version

i dont want to think that what i do with the gifts god gave me has anything to do with my salvation -- thats way to hard,who wants that respnsability, so by far your alternative is better



The problem is it's not an easy faith. As I stated, we can run from God, but He disciplines us. If sinning caused us to lose our salvation we would no longer belong to God, correct? We must then ask why Hebrews 12 is so adamant that the Lord disciplines those who belong to Him. If sinning causes us to lose our salvation and losing our salvation means we no longer belong to God, why does He discipline us?

The reason the Bible places an emphasis upon the past, present, and future tense of salvation is because salvation is truly three-fold.

We are 'saved' in one sense, in that we are justified. This means our sins are forgiven in a one time act that cannot be reversed (saved). We are then sanctified, which is a continual act of becoming more and more like the Son, restoring the image of God (being saved). After we die and are put in our new body, we are glorified; our image has been fully recovered and we no longer sin (will be saved).

The thing is, this isn't an 'easy faith.' When we come to Christ we accept a new life where Christ is the source. When we live away from that source (sin) we experience dread, angst, and despair. We become ineffective. Like a lover shlepping around with one we're truly in love with, we feel absolute guilt. The reason is sin is not a part of who we are supposed to be - we have two natures fighting within us. We are being conformed.

This explains the past, present, and future sense of salvation (that urban missionary gave scripture to). It certainly isn't a pit stop salvation where we say, "Yay, Christ does it all - I'll go play my 360 now." Instead, it is something we partake in, but that He keeps us in.

ProjectPeter
Aug 6th 2008, 08:12 PM
Then what is salvation worth considering we sin every hour of every day? If we so much as think wrongly about God we are sinning (we create an idol when we do this, even if we do not realize it's wrong).

A better interpretation is that when Paul says we're not saved by works, he means we're not saved by works period. Under your definition, one still has to work for salvation, just not the works required by the Law. That's not a salvation worth believing in because it's essentially pagan in nature.
Every hour of the day eh? Amazing. Tell me... how is that not "practicing" sin?

apothanein kerdos
Aug 6th 2008, 08:21 PM
Every hour of the day eh? Amazing. Tell me... how is that not "practicing" sin?

That ignores what I said. As I stated:


If we so much as think wrongly about God we are sinning (we create an idol when we do this, even if we do not realize it's wrong).

So say Bob thinks we are always saved. Unfortunately for Bob, he doesn't realize that you are right. Therefore, Bob has created an intellectual idol about God (a God that gives grace in light of our sins), therefore Bob is sinning. Bob is going to Hell according to your belief. In all reality, Bob is sinning every second of every day until his belief changes.

I was dealing with the sin in the mind, not the physical manifestation of sin. Be honest with yourself and you'll realize that you sin more than you'd like to admit (we all do).

More importantly, you haven't dealt with the omission part either. For instance, why aren't you out evangelizing right now? How do you know that you've evangelized enough in order to avoid committing the sin of omission? How do you know you're not omitting something right now and are, therefore, going to Hell?

ProjectPeter
Aug 6th 2008, 08:34 PM
That ignores what I said. As I stated:


If we so much as think wrongly about God we are sinning (we create an idol when we do this, even if we do not realize it's wrong). Didn't ignore it at all. Seems odd to me. How can one think wrongly of God and not know it?



So say Bob thinks we are always saved. Unfortunately for Bob, he doesn't realize that you are right. Therefore, Bob has created an intellectual idol about God (a God that gives grace in light of our sins), therefore Bob is sinning. Bob is going to Hell according to your belief. In all reality, Bob is sinning every second of every day until his belief changes.Uh... that's your education thinking too much again. There is a danger with philosophy if one ain't careful with it. ;)


I was dealing with the sin in the mind, not the physical manifestation of sin. Be honest with yourself and you'll realize that you sin more than you'd like to admit (we all do). I am constantly honest with myself about that. But that isn't even physical... depending on where Bob is or has been. 2 Peter 1: 1-11 doesn't get us from point A to point Z over night. But there needs to be progression. I wasn't born again last week, month, or year. Been for a long time. Rest assured... I don't sin as much as you might like to think. Certainly not every hour of every day etc. ;)


More importantly, you haven't dealt with the omission part either. For instance, why aren't you out evangelizing right now? How do you know that you've evangelized enough in order to avoid committing the sin of omission? How do you know you're not omitting something right now and are, therefore, going to Hell?I know I am not omitting a thing. What a miserable way to live... and you guys talk about guys like me being the legalist! :lol: If God tells me to go out on the street... I'm gone. Otherwise I do what God tells me to do right where I am. Don't be so hard on yourself... that is not necessary and is going to get you in trouble come one day!

apothanein kerdos
Aug 6th 2008, 08:35 PM
Looks like there's some other stuff going on in the thread that I'm not aware of (so it's hard to follow) and, I'll be honest, I have a tendency to get too personal on this topic. I'll bow out. Project Peter, feel free to have the last word on what I said.

ProjectPeter
Aug 6th 2008, 08:56 PM
Looks like there's some other stuff going on in the thread that I'm not aware of (so it's hard to follow) and, I'll be honest, I have a tendency to get too personal on this topic. I'll bow out. Project Peter, feel free to have the last word on what I said.
Hey... that happens. See you elsewhere!

Firefighter
Aug 7th 2008, 02:37 AM
You have NOT addressed the ten scriptures I posted. If you did (which you didn't) please repost for all to see where you accounted for each scripture. THEN I will continue.

ProjectPeter
Aug 7th 2008, 12:15 PM
I didn't address each Scripture nor am I. Folks can post 100 Scripture and then demand each one be addressed otherwise they are taking their wittle keyboard and going home to tell momma and you know... there ya go! I can post times more than ten and play that same game and that ain't discussing. Those Scripture ALL mention you being saved by faith in Christ. I don't have to address each one because I can point that out in each one individually or as a group. They say the same thing.

As to your not continuing... knock yourself out either way. God won't be knocked off the throne nor do I really care one way or the other. ;)

Firefighter
Aug 7th 2008, 12:19 PM
You will not adress them because it is absolutely devastating to your warped theology. They describe salvation as past and present, as well as a future event and for some reason you simply cannot/will not accept that. Working your way to heaven seems more appealing to you.

ProjectPeter
Aug 7th 2008, 12:23 PM
Oh yeah! I mean look... in one post man! You killed it! Devestated and destroyed it! You are a legend! You will go down in the anuls of the Internet as the great ProjectPeter theology killer! :rolleyes:

It doesn't describe it as past, present and future. It describes it as BY FAITH. That's all.

What is the actual outcome of ones faith... that would be enduring faith?

1 Peter 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

Slug1
Aug 7th 2008, 12:23 PM
You will not adress them because it is absolutely devastating to your warped theology. They describe salvation as past and present, as well as a future event and for some reason you simply cannot/will not accept that. Working your way to heaven seems more appealing to you.UM, are you addressing this to fewarechosen or ProjectPeter?

Just want to clarify this for myself :)

ProjectPeter
Aug 7th 2008, 12:27 PM
UM, are you addressing this to fewarechosen or ProjectPeter?

Just want to clarify this for myself :)
Oh... he's talking to me. :lol: The theology slayer still hasn't figured out the quote thing yet... that's all. ;)

Firefighter
Aug 7th 2008, 12:45 PM
If you applied less sarcasm and more exegesis we might actually get somewhere. But you would rather play the big ol' mean bully out on the playground, right?

Let's have a formal debate, moderated by a non-partisan third party. Let's make this debate point for point. I.E. - I make a point that you must counter, then you make a point I must counter, and so on and so forth. If someone cannot address a particular point (or refuses to) then it's point, set, match.

I will defend all three positions (past, present, future).

You defend that it is only a future event.

You game?:bounce:

ProjectPeter
Aug 7th 2008, 12:58 PM
I've offered that a couple of times in just the last month. Tell me when you want to start. ;)

ProjectPeter
Aug 7th 2008, 01:06 PM
And let me add just for clarification sake. I am not saying it isn't a future event. It is... by faith. It isn't yet an actuality but it is by faith. And that is the mystery of salvation. ;)

Firefighter
Aug 7th 2008, 01:47 PM
Let's pick a moderator, one that is unbiased in the matter or disagrees with both of us. Maybe one will volunteer.

ProjectPeter
Aug 7th 2008, 01:48 PM
There is no picking. TrustingFollower is the Mod for the Arena... he'll handle it fine. Start a thread in chat to mod's and we'll set up the ground rules and I will push the buttons.

Firefighter
Aug 7th 2008, 01:56 PM
This is going to be public right???

ProjectPeter
Aug 7th 2008, 02:09 PM
Yes. You should be able to see the Arena. It is in the controversial forums.

Whispering Grace
Aug 7th 2008, 02:12 PM
This is going to be public right???

You betcha! It's called "The Arena" for a reason!

*grabs popcorn and Whoppers and settles in for the main event*

Firefighter
Aug 7th 2008, 02:23 PM
I have posted in my "usual" thread in the moderator section...:lol:

Clavicula_Nox
Aug 7th 2008, 09:43 PM
What a silly argument.

th1bill
Aug 7th 2008, 10:49 PM
1Jn 5:11 And the witness is this, that God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath the life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not the life.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.

Because I have believed on Him I am saved. Because I have believed on Him and He sent the Holy spirit to live His life through me I am not the man I was before. We all bear a yoke, the yoke of Jesus is light because He bears the weight of it and because of what He has done for and through me I love Him.

It is a simple matter really, I believe and because I believe He has become my master and I do not carry the load of my sin any longer.

ProjectPeter
Aug 7th 2008, 11:23 PM
What a silly argument.
Uh... care to expand?

AngelAuthor
Aug 7th 2008, 11:34 PM
Can a "no assurance of salvation" or "salvation by works" person answer this scenario for me?

I live my life as a Christian, fully trusting as Christ in my savior according to Scripture.

I die.

God sends me to hell because I didn't do enough, didn't do the right thing or whatever.

Now, in hell, I lift up my eyes and quote to God:

You loved the world so much you gave your only Begotten son, that whosoever believed in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I believed, God. Why am I here in Hell?


Someone want to try answering that for me without making God contradict His own Word?

2 Peter 2:20
Aug 8th 2008, 12:35 AM
Can a "no assurance of salvation" or "salvation by works" person answer this scenario for me?

I live my life as a Christian, fully trusting as Christ in my savior according to Scripture.

I die.

God sends me to hell because I didn't do enough, didn't do the right thing or whatever.

Now, in hell, I lift up my eyes and quote to God:

You loved the world so much you gave your only Begotten son, that whosoever believed in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I believed, God. Why am I here in Hell?


Someone want to try answering that for me without making God contradict His own Word?

Under this scenario were you walking in the Spirit or walking in the flesh???

If you are walking in the Spirit then it is not possible to end up in hell

If you are walking in the flesh then it is possible to end up in hell

Sin is the key...sin means separation from God, always has always will.

Clavicula_Nox
Aug 8th 2008, 01:34 AM
Uh... care to expand?

In the beginning of the thread is an ongoing argument of semantics, and arguing the presence (past, present, future) of verbs. I just think it's really silly. It seems rather obvious to me, that we are intended to live our lives as mandated to us by God as much as we possibly can, hence we have The Bible. The entire argument of NOSAS vs OSAS should be utterly irrelevant, because if we were living our lives as intended, the argument wouldn't even exist to begin with.

Maybe it's just me, but that's why I found it a bit silly.

AngelAuthor
Aug 8th 2008, 04:32 AM
Under this scenario were you walking in the Spirit or walking in the flesh???

If you are walking in the Spirit then it is not possible to end up in hell

If you are walking in the flesh then it is possible to end up in hell

Sin is the key...sin means separation from God, always has always will.

You want to define "Walking in the Spirit" and "Walking in the Flesh" in practical terms?

EVERYONE WHO EVER LIVED is a sinner (except Christ). We've ALL been separated, obviously there is a way to be "un-separated" according to Scripture...even for sinners.

ilovemetal
Aug 8th 2008, 05:42 AM
i'm saved. thought you should know:D