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Fenris
Aug 7th 2008, 12:47 PM
In 586BC king Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians. The Jews were exiled from their land. 70 years later, king Cyrus 'God's anointed' (see Isaiah 45) allowed the Jews to return and the Temple to be rebuilt.

What does Christianity make of the destruction, exile, and eventual return and rebuilding?

manichunter
Aug 7th 2008, 02:55 PM
In 586BC king Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians. The Jews were exiled from their land. 70 years later, king Cyrus 'God's anointed' (see Isaiah 45) allowed the Jews to return and the Temple to be rebuilt.

What does Christianity make of the destruction, exile, and eventual return and rebuilding?

I do not know about Christianity as a whole, but I personaly think that is what happens to people who refuse to repent, stop sinning, and return to the ways of God written in His Torah. Hence, this is a reoccurring thing both individually and cooperately. God removes Himself from the physical things we possess and the enemy comes in as judgment to steal, kill, and destroy.

Fenris
Aug 7th 2008, 02:58 PM
I do not know about Christianity as a whole, but I personaly think that is what happens to people who refuse to repent, stop sinning, and return to the ways of God written in His Torah. Hence, this is a reoccurring thing both individually and cooperately. God removes Himself from the physical things we possess and the enemy comes in as judgment to steal, kill, and destroy.
No argument.

But the Temple was rebuilt 70 years later. What do you make of that?

Steve M
Aug 7th 2008, 03:03 PM
No argument.

But the Temple was rebuilt 70 years later. What do you make of that?
I think that our disobedience creates a barrier between us and God; but it's not an impossible barrier to overcome. Not because we are capable of reconciling to Him, but because he desires to reconcile with us.


Jeremiah 31
20 Is not Ephraim my dear son,
the child in whom I delight?
Though I often speak against him,
I still remember him.
Therefore my heart yearns for him;
I have great compassion for him,"
declares the LORD. Even when God is punishing us, He desires to be reconciled to all men.

Fenris
Aug 7th 2008, 03:55 PM
I think that our disobedience creates a barrier between us and God; but it's not an impossible barrier to overcome. Not because we are capable of reconciling to Him, but because he desires to reconcile with us.

Right, that's true. But does this mean one can be reconciled with God even without sacrifice?

Brother Mark
Aug 7th 2008, 03:59 PM
No argument.

But the Temple was rebuilt 70 years later. What do you make of that?

That was because God said he would let the land get all her sabbaths back. So she was in exile one year for each sabbath year that was ignored. This shows the great patience of God in that he waited around 490 years or so before finally bringing out the belt.

As for the rebuilding of the temple, thank God that he is a God of second chances! Samson in rebellion, lost his strength. But in repentance gained it back. Over and over and over again in scripture we see the patience, severity and kindness of God. Let us not overlook the role of the prayer of Daniel in the rebuilding of the temple either. Nor the prayer of Nehemiah. Sometimes, it helps when a Godly man repents not only for himself, but for his fathers and his country.

Brother Mark
Aug 7th 2008, 04:02 PM
Right, that's true. But does this mean one can be reconciled with God even without sacrifice?

No. But the sacrifices that are acceptable to God are a broken heart and a contrite spirit. ;)

Yet if we dig further, I think we can discover that David was not bound to the Law of Moses in a way that many others are. He saw it but knew the heart of God behind it. David saw the spirit of the law beyond the letter. That's one reason he was allowed to live when he did that which the law demanded death for. He, knowing the mercy of God, ate the shewbread and was held guiltless. But taking the sword of Goliath caused many issues because it betrayed his lack of faith in the Lord to deliver him from Saul as he had from Goliath, and this after God had anointed him to be King!

Digging further, I think we find David understood the ultimate sacrifice that was coming. You know where I am going with that one.

Steve M
Aug 7th 2008, 04:13 PM
Right, that's true. But does this mean one can be reconciled with God even without sacrifice?
Why, no. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sins. (cough cough, book of Hebrews, cough couch, New Testament theology again...)

There may yet be another temple--but I think we already have a better temple. :)

Literalist-Luke
Aug 7th 2008, 04:50 PM
No argument.

But the Temple was rebuilt 70 years later. What do you make of that?I'm not following what you're getting at. Considering that Moses' warning about the covenant curses contained a warning that Israel would be scattered to the "nationS", and that they were only deported to one nation, Babylon, and, most importantly, that there were still some Israelies left in the land during that time, the ultimate fulfillment of the covenant curse appears to me to have not occurred until the diaspora of 70 AD.

Fenris
Aug 7th 2008, 11:51 PM
No. But the sacrifices that are acceptable to God are a broken heart and a contrite spirit. ;)Of course.


Yet if we dig further, I think we can discover that David was not bound to the Law of Moses in a way that many others are. He saw it but knew the heart of God behind it. David saw the spirit of the law beyond the letter. That's one reason he was allowed to live when he did that which the law demanded death for. He, knowing the mercy of God, ate the shewbread and was held guiltless. But taking the sword of Goliath caused many issues because it betrayed his lack of faith in the Lord to deliver him from Saul as he had from Goliath, and this after God had anointed him to be King!

Digging further, I think we find David understood the ultimate sacrifice that was coming. You know where I am going with that one.
Our beliefs color or view of scripture. that goes for both of us.

Fenris
Aug 7th 2008, 11:52 PM
Why, no. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sins.
Then why did God allow the Second temple to be built and exiles to return?

Fenris
Aug 7th 2008, 11:53 PM
I'm not following what you're getting at. Considering that Moses' warning about the covenant curses contained a warning that Israel would be scattered to the "nationS", and that they were only deported to one nation, Babylon, and, most importantly, that there were still some Israelies left in the land during that time, the ultimate fulfillment of the covenant curse appears to me to have not occurred until the diaspora of 70 AD.
Well...yeah. that's true. Having said that, the second temple era was definitely 'lower' than the first. No prophets, no miracles, majority of the Jews never returned to israel...

apothanein kerdos
Aug 8th 2008, 12:03 AM
Right, that's true. But does this mean one can be reconciled with God even without sacrifice?


This is only if we believe the sacrifices ever saved anyone. I'm a strong proponent of the belief that it was the ancient Israelites faith that saved them, not the sacrifices. The sacrifices were a manifestation of the faith that already existed. The sacrifices served as an example of what was to come.

As for what the Jews did for 70 years, we can look to the exile narratives and see that the Jews were faithful in thought and deed. Again, these were manifestations of the faith that already existed within.

The problem with modern Judaism is that it makes the same mistake some of the Pharisees did (I don't mean that in a derogatory manner, but merely as a way of comparison) in believing the Law, the actions, and so on actually were the path to salvation.

I know you won't agree with 90% of what is above, but that is the orthodox Christian explanation. :)

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 12:06 AM
OK, fair enough. I don't agree with some of what you said, but I see what you're saying.

BroRog
Aug 8th 2008, 12:49 AM
In 586BC king Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians. The Jews were exiled from their land. 70 years later, king Cyrus 'God's anointed' (see Isaiah 45) allowed the Jews to return and the Temple to be rebuilt.

What does Christianity make of the destruction, exile, and eventual return and rebuilding?

Personally, I don't know what Christianity thinks about it. Speaking for myself, I cried when I read the account. I'm kinda choked up over it as I type this. I'm not joking about this. I feel/felt sad when I read it.

I don't condemn the people back then at all. If I were them, I probably would have done the same thing. I'm only sad in retrospect. I'm guessing of course, but I bet the walk to Babylon was silent. I don't think I would have opened my mouth the whole way. And I would be wondering if I was ever coming back. I think the others would be talking about how their dads worked on the temple and how all the families helped out. I think my heart would hurt so bad, I wouldn't be able to feel how tired my feet were.

And I would have felt the deepest sense of how much I disappointed God and I would also feel a deep sense of regret; my head would hurt but not from thinking. I would feel so numb. My only comfort would be the stars at night, the only familiar sight that remained. I think I would start to pray, try to make my apology, but the words wouldn't come out. Just silence and a diversion of the eyes.

At that point my faith would grow into the next generation beyond my lifetime. I'm not going back. Seventy years is a long time and I'm not likely to live that long. I will never see home again. My kids might see it. I'll tell them about it. Maybe they will do better than I did. I just don't know. Kids don't seem to be listening, but then they surprise me. They're good kids. I'll tell them the stories, and say, "we really messed up. If you go back, don't do what we did. Don't screw this up again. Take my bones back please."

DadBurnett
Aug 8th 2008, 12:58 AM
As for the rebuilding of the temple, thank God that he is a God of second chances! Samson in rebellion, lost his strength. But in repentance gained it back. Over and over and over again in scripture we see the patience, severity and kindness of God. Let us not overlook the role of the prayer of Daniel in the rebuilding of the temple either. Nor the prayer of Nehemiah. Sometimes, it helps when a Godly man repents not only for himself, but for his fathers and his country.

He is a God of second chances??? He is? Then there is perhaps some hope for those who die unsaved???

Steve M
Aug 8th 2008, 12:58 AM
Then why did God allow the Second temple to be built and exiles to return?
I think there's an element of mercy there; He said, in Jeremiah, I will bring them back and THEN I will forget their sins. I.e., He'll bring them to a point where there can be sacrifices (or, ahem, a SINGLE sacrifice); and not hold them to a standard that it is impossible for them to meet until they recieve His help.

I note it's the same story when He brought them to the land the first time. They start out in sin, and He has to give them the mercy of the opportunity to redeem their sins. He brought them out of Egypt before they sacrificed a single bull.

Literalist-Luke
Aug 8th 2008, 04:37 AM
Well...yeah. that's true. Having said that, the second temple era was definitely 'lower' than the first. No prophets, no miracles, majority of the Jews never returned to israel...No prophets? What about Zechariah and Malachi? And what about the story of the Temple Menorah not going out that became the basis for Hanukkah? Would that not be considered a miracle?

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 09:48 AM
Personally, I don't know what Christianity thinks about it. Speaking for myself, I cried when I read the account. I'm kinda choked up over it as I type this. I'm not joking about this. I feel/felt sad when I read it.

That's a very touching way to put it.

Alas, sometimes we need to be chastised in order to return to God.

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 09:51 AM
I think there's an element of mercy there; He said, in Jeremiah, I will bring them back and THEN I will forget their sins. I.e., He'll bring them to a point where there can be sacrifices (or, ahem, a SINGLE sacrifice); and not hold them to a standard that it is impossible for them to meet until they recieve His help.

Eh, I think that's a stretch.

Countless times the bible says that it isn't sacrifice that God requires; so perhaps the contrite spirit in Babylon was sufficient?

Micah 6:6 'Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before Him with burnt-offerings, with calves of a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?' 8 It hath been told thee, O man, what is good, and what the LORD doth require of thee: only to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 10:00 AM
No prophets? What about Zechariah and Malachi?
Malachi was the last prophet. Little is know about him though, including when he lived and what his name actually was. (Malachi means 'my messenger', so it may not have even been his proper name but rather his title assigned by God). The latest date for his life is probably about 420 BC.


And what about the story of the Temple Menorah not going out that became the basis for Hanukkah? Would that not be considered a miracle?
That was a single miracle. The First Temple had miracles daily.

It also had the mystical Ark of the Covenant, which was missing form the Second Temple.

So I'm comfortable saying that the Second Temple was on a lower level than the First.

Brother Mark
Aug 8th 2008, 01:43 PM
He is a God of second chances??? He is? Then there is perhaps some hope for those who die unsaved???

Nope. Once death occurs, it's over. After death, comes judgment. The second chances are all in this life and that is illustrated many times in scripture. The rich man asked for help in hell and received none.

Brother Mark
Aug 8th 2008, 01:45 PM
So I'm comfortable saying that the Second Temple was on a lower level than the First.


Yes. The old men wept because it was not the same former glory even though the young men rejoiced. At least that's what I recall from my readings but I may be mistaken.

tgallison
Aug 8th 2008, 03:19 PM
Right, that's true. But does this mean one can be reconciled with God even without sacrifice?

Fenris Greetings

No, you cannot be reconciled to God without sacrifice. But there are two sacrifices. One of man, and one of God.

Man's--

Ezra 9:5 "And at the evening sacrifice I arose up from my heaviness, and having rent my garment and my mantle, I fell upon my knees, and spread out my hands unto the Lord my God."

Psalm 141:2 "Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense, and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice."

Psalm 40:6 "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire, mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required."

Psalm 54:6, Psalm 107:22, Psalm 116:17, Proverbs 21:3

Ecclesiastes 5:1 "Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil."

Jeremiah 33:11 "The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the Lord of Hosts: for the Lord is good, for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the Lord. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the Lord."

John 3:29 "He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled."
Isaiah 61:10, 62:5; Joel 2:16
The Messiah is the bridegroom.

Hosea 6:6 "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."

Jonah 2:9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord."

And then we have the Lord's sacrifice--

Zephaniah 1:7-9 "Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God: for the day of the Lord is at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests. And it shall come to pass in the day of the Lord's sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel."

Our sacrifice is a sacrifice of praise. It is the only thing that we possess that has not already belonged to the Lord, for all that we have and can do comes from Him.

God's sacrifice is one of love. What greater love can one show than to give of himself to another. You cannot possess God's love if you will not accept it.

terrell

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 03:24 PM
Fenris Greetings

No, you cannot be reconciled to God without sacrifice.
Then how was the Temple rebuilt?

Brother Mark
Aug 8th 2008, 03:26 PM
Then how was the Temple rebuilt?

Doesn't Daniel's broken and contrite heart count as a sacrifice to God? or are you strickly referring to sin sacrifice?

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 03:36 PM
Doesn't Daniel's broken and contrite heart count as a sacrifice to God?
I would say yes, certainly. And that 'sacrifice' is available to all of us- we can all do it.

But others seem to feel otherwise?

Brother Mark
Aug 8th 2008, 03:41 PM
I would say yes, certainly. And that 'sacrifice' is available to all of us- we can all do it.

But others seem to feel otherwise?

Keep in mind too that God sees the heart and allows for contrition while accepting the actual sacrifice at a later date.

While Psalms 51 does not mention a sin sacrifice, I am willing to believe that same year, the High Priest still offered a sin sacrifice under which David was covered.

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 03:50 PM
Keep in mind too that God sees the heart and allows for contrition while accepting the actual sacrifice at a later date.
Now see, that's very interesting. God can't accept contrition as an actual sacrifice? Why not? The bible is full of verses which says He can and He does...



While Psalms 51 does not mention a sin sacrifice, I am willing to believe that same year, the High Priest still offered a sin sacrifice under which David was covered.
No, it actually says the exact opposite:
18. For You do not wish a sacrifice, or I should give it; You do not desire a burnt offering.

19. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; O God, You will not despise a broken and crushed heart.

Brother Mark
Aug 8th 2008, 03:54 PM
Now see, that's very interesting. God can't accept contrition as an actual sacrifice? Why not? The bible is full of verses which says He can and He does...


No, it actually says the exact opposite:
18. For You do not wish a sacrifice, or I should give it; You do not desire a burnt offering.

19. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; O God, You will not despise a broken and crushed heart.

Of course he accepts contrition. And David was making a point about animal sacrifices. It is not those that he desires. Isaiah 1 goes even further in explanation and reveals that it's always the heart God is concerned about.

The way the Law of Moses is dealt with in scripture is very interesting. We see David eat the shew bread and yet he's blameless. But then we see him commit murder and yet, he's not killed. But the law of Moses is not meaningless even if it is not always enforced.

Which leaves us with a big question. What exactly did God intend to show with the Law of Moses? and specifically, the animal sacrifices?

Ta-An
Aug 8th 2008, 04:02 PM
What does Christianity make of the destruction, exile, and eventual return and rebuilding?My take on this, I do not represent the whole of Christianity..

Destruction : Because: Israel hath forgotten his Maker,

Return, now was it Nehemiah..... the King's cup bearer .... Yes!!! it was him, that prayed, and fasted, (repented before the L_rd) and the L_rd answered him, .... and King Artaxerxes set him free to go rebuild the walls of Jerusalem....
One man that was responsible to turn a whole nation back to G_d :idea:

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 04:02 PM
Of course he accepts contrition. And David was making a point about animal sacrifices. It is not those that he desires. Isaiah 1 goes even further in explanation and reveals that it's always the heart God is concerned about.So then a sacrifice is not needed/not required?


The way the Law of Moses is dealt with in scripture is very interesting. We see David eat the shew bread and yet he's blameless.
This is probably a poor example, since it's not a sin to eat the shewbread when one's life is at stake. One would actually be obligated to eat it if they were starving to death...


But then we see him commit murder and yet, he's not killed.
Ah. this is a better example. Even here, we have extenuating circumstances, since David was 1)The king and 2)he was David. Obviously he was capable of achieving the proper level of remorse, something I am obviously not capable of. It's that whole 'comparison to biblical characters' thing I don't like...:lol:
But the law of Moses is not meaningless even if it is not always enforced.


Which leaves us with a big question. What exactly did God intend to show with the Law of Moses?
I don't think they were meant to 'show' anything. They were, and are, capable of spiritually elevating people who carry them out. So I believe.


and specifically, the animal sacrifices?
Animal sacrifice was an expression of remorse. It's how primitive man did such things.

Brother Mark
Aug 8th 2008, 04:08 PM
So then a sacrifice is not needed/not required?

Does the law of Moses require one? It is an interesting discussion.


This is probably a poor example, since it's not a sin to eat the shewbread when one's life is at stake. One would actually be obligated to eat it if they were starving to death...

I agree because mercy trumps judgment. Even our laws provide for medical emergencies, i.e. speeding when someone needs to get to a hospital is not against the law.


Ah. this is a better example. Even here, we have extenuating circumstances, since David was 1)The king and 2)he was David. Obviously he was capable of achieving the proper level of remorse, something I am obviously not capable of. It's that whole 'comparison to biblical characters' thing I don't like...:lol:

Are there not other examples besides David? How many people did Israel actually stone to death for breaking the law? Are you suggesting David was above the Law of Moses?


But the law of Moses is not meaningless even if it is not always enforced.

On that I agree! The question then becomes, why was it not always enforced?


I don't think they were meant to 'show' anything. They were, and are, capable of spiritually elevating people who carry them out. So I believe.

Animal sacrifice was an expression of remorse. It's how primitive man did such things.

But why would God command it? God is not primitive even if man is and was.

What remorse was the passover lamb supposed to show?

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 04:18 PM
My take on this, I do not represent the whole of Christianity..

Destruction : Because: Israel hath forgotten his Maker,

Return, now was it Nehemiah..... the King's cup bearer .... Yes!!! it was him, that prayed, and fasted, (repented before the L_rd) and the L_rd answered him, .... and King Artaxerxes set him free to go rebuild the walls of Jerusalem....
One man that was responsible to turn a whole nation back to G_d :idea:
Yep. And he was only a man.

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 04:22 PM
Does the law of Moses require one? It is an interesting discussion. When possible, obviously yes.




I agree because mercy trumps judgment. Even our laws provide for medical emergencies, i.e. speeding when someone needs to get to a hospital is not against the law.Exactly. And the rabbis knew this well.




Are there not other examples besides David?
Of murderers being forgiven by God? I can't think of any.


How many people did Israel actually stone to death for breaking the law? I don't know.


Are you suggesting David was above the Law of Moses? No. That isn't what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that God expects us to fall short, and that's ok, provided we repent and try to do better.




On that I agree! The question then becomes, why was it not always enforced?When wasn't it enforced? Don't say King David, he's an exception case. Any other examples?




But why would God command it? God is not primitive even if man is and was. Because the bible wasn't given to gods or angels. It was given to man.


What remorse was the passover lamb supposed to show?
None. That's not the purpose of that sacrifice.

Brother Mark
Aug 8th 2008, 04:22 PM
My take on this, I do not represent the whole of Christianity..

Destruction : Because: Israel hath forgotten his Maker,

Return, now was it Nehemiah..... the King's cup bearer .... Yes!!! it was him, that prayed, and fasted, (repented before the L_rd) and the L_rd answered him, .... and King Artaxerxes set him free to go rebuild the walls of Jerusalem....
One man that was responsible to turn a whole nation back to G_d :idea:

I think Ezra and Nehemiah were an answer to Daniel's prayer.

I love that God often chose people that were fearful and made great leaders out of them. Nehemiah was afraid but became a mighty man.

Ta-An
Aug 8th 2008, 04:24 PM
Yep. And he was only a man.So? .

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 04:25 PM
So? .
So... even a man can bring people back to God.

Brother Mark
Aug 8th 2008, 04:28 PM
So... even a man can bring people back to God.

Balaams donkey did it too. Pharoah rebuked Abraham for lying. And the Chaldeans worked repentance in Israel.

Shoot, I figure God might even use me one day given those he's used in the past. Me and the donkey actually match up rather well at times.

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 04:31 PM
Balaams donkey did it too. Pharoah rebuked Abraham for lying. And the Chaldeans worked repentance in Israel.

Shoot, I figure God might even use me one day given those he's used in the past. Me and the donkey actually match up rather well at times.
Well, that's why we see the messiah as just a man.

Ta-An
Aug 8th 2008, 04:33 PM
So... even a man can bring people back to God.
SO why was Yeshua rejected??:hmm:

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 04:37 PM
SO why was Yeshua rejected??:hmm:
Who says he was rejected? He was quite popular, from my reading of the NT.

Ta-An
Aug 8th 2008, 04:42 PM
Who says he was rejected? He was quite popular, from my reading of the NT.
So you read the B’rit Hadasha?

Why did not all Jews accept Him :hmm:

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 04:43 PM
So you read the B’rit Hadasha?

Why did not all Jews accept Him :hmm:




Accept him as what- a righteous man, or God incarnate?

Ta-An
Aug 8th 2008, 04:47 PM
Accept him as what- a righteous man, or God incarnate? Both .

B'rit Hadasha??

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 04:50 PM
Both .Well, one part is ok and one part runs counter to Jewish expectation/ Jewish understanding of the bible.


B'rit Hadasha??
What about it?

Ta-An
Aug 8th 2008, 04:53 PM
What about it?Do you have a copy..... have you read it??

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 04:54 PM
Do you have a copy..... have you read it??
I do not own a copy, but I have read it, yes. Is there going to be a test?

Ta-An
Aug 8th 2008, 05:04 PM
I do not own a copy, but I have read it, yes. Is there going to be a test?Nice idea, let me see......:hmm:
Was it originally written in Hebrew or Greek, I don't want textbook answers, I want to know : What do you recognize of the usage of the language??

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 05:07 PM
Nice idea, let me see......:hmm:Oh man, what have I got myself into? I was kidding!! :lol:



Was it originally written in Hebrew or Greek, I don't want textbook answers, I want to know : What do you recognize of the usage of the language??
Well, all I've read is an english translation...but all the surviving copies are in Greek. And when it quotes the Tanach, it is quoting word-for-word from the Septuagint, which was Greek. So I would have to say Greek.

Ta-An
Aug 8th 2008, 05:12 PM
Oh man, what have I got myself into? I was kidding!! :lol: Give a South African a pinky, (little finger) then we take the whole hand!! :idea: :rofl:


Well, all I've read is an english translation...but all the surviving copies are in Greek. And when it quotes the Tanach, it is quoting word-for-word from the Septuagint, which was Greek. So I would have to say Greek. Disappointing answer :(as I enjoy the Hebrew thinking and thought patterns I see come through in it ;)


But now that you have successfully derailed your own thread...... back to the OP :idea:

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 05:14 PM
Disappointing answer :(as I enjoy the Hebrew thinking and thought patterns I see come through in it ;)
I didn't notice...


But now that you have successfully derailed your own thread...... back to the OP :idea:
Right-o

Ta-An
Aug 8th 2008, 05:39 PM
Well, one part is ok and one part runs counter to Jewish expectation/ Jewish understanding of the bible.
Do you not think that just perhaps G_d was looking to the individual to make each one their own choice, ieo the whole nation following what the Priests prescribed to the whole nation / congregation (pardon the ref to congregation... I dunno if that is the correct word to use. :hmm:..)

Salvation depends on that what each person to choose to believe for himself :) (I hope that came out right)

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 05:42 PM
I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you just said.

Ta-An
Aug 8th 2008, 05:44 PM
I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you just said.You know, just like in the ref. about the rebuilding of the wall that started with one man, and the rest of the men rebuilding the wall in front of his own house..... so with Yeshua, He was One Man, and each person has to choose for themselves to accept Him as L_rd for themselves. One cannot decide for Messiah without deciding against some other things

If Yeshua did live up to your/Jewish expectations..... then that means that we can put Him in a box, to understand Him... and He is bigger than that...

tgallison
Aug 8th 2008, 07:29 PM
Then how was the Temple rebuilt?

Fenris since you asked, I believe the Temple was resurrected somewhere around 29 AD, and is in the process of being refurbished with believers in the Messiah. Also that the incense of the Temple is the prayers of the beloved that is reaching up to God.

terrell

Fenris
Aug 8th 2008, 08:44 PM
Fenris since you asked, I believe the Temple was resurrected somewhere around 29 AD,
Um. God's anointed, king Cyrus, allowed the reconstruction of the temple. It's in the bible. By the time Jesus came along it had been standing for more than 400 years.

tgallison
Aug 10th 2008, 10:56 AM
Um. God's anointed, king Cyrus, allowed the reconstruction of the temple. It's in the bible. By the time Jesus came along it had been standing for more than 400 years.

Where was the Ark and the covenant? What good is a Temple without the presence of God?

terrell

Fenris
Aug 10th 2008, 11:50 AM
Where was the Ark and the covenant?
Well, I already said that the second temple was at a lower level..


What good is a Temple without the presence of God?

terrell

Who said God wasn't there?


You know, the thought occurred to me that you guys would have a much stronger case if Jesus came prior to the destruction of the first temple...just an idea...

Fenris
Aug 10th 2008, 01:03 PM
You know, just like in the ref. about the rebuilding of the wall that started with one man, and the rest of the men rebuilding the wall in front of his own house..... so with Yeshua, He was One Man, and each person has to choose for themselves to accept Him as L_rd for themselves. One cannot decide for Messiah without deciding against some other things

If Yeshua did live up to your/Jewish expectations..... then that means that we can put Him in a box, to understand Him... and He is bigger than that...
The issue is that Jesus wasn't a man, he was god incarnate. And that's where Jews and Christians parted ways 2 millenia ago.

2Witnesses
Aug 10th 2008, 03:57 PM
In 586BC king Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians. The Jews were exiled from their land. 70 years later, king Cyrus 'God's anointed' (see Isaiah 45) allowed the Jews to return and the Temple to be rebuilt.

What does Christianity make of the destruction, exile, and eventual return and rebuilding?


Hi again Fenris,

That destruction was because of Israel's (Judah) rebellion. And the destruction of the 2nd temple was for the same reason.

There was the New Covenant Jeremiah spoke of. And so blood offering wer removed.

2Witnesses http://www.habagministry.com

Fenris
Aug 10th 2008, 04:03 PM
Hi again Fenris,

That destruction was because of Israel's (Judah) rebellion. And the destruction of the 2nd temple was for the same reason.

There was the New Covenant Jeremiah spoke of. And so blood offering wer removed.

So why was blood offering removed after the second destruction but not the first?

2Witnesses
Aug 10th 2008, 04:11 PM
So why was blood offering removed after the second destruction but not the first?


Fenris,

Yeshua had not yet come to offer the true sacrifice. Its a time issue Fenris.

2Witnesses

Ps Allow m to say this, Fenris, but the world changed after this man Yeshua came. And He can change your world as well

Fenris
Aug 10th 2008, 04:50 PM
Fenris,

Yeshua had not yet come to offer the true sacrifice. Its a time issue Fenris.
Well, like I said, you would have a stronger case if Jesus came prior to the first destruction.


Ps Allow m to say this, Fenris, but the world changed after this man Yeshua came. And He can change your world as wellMany men changed the world. Surely they were sent by God. That doesn't mean that they were God though.

Literalist-Luke
Aug 10th 2008, 05:16 PM
Many men changed the world. Surely they were sent by God.Would that include Muhammad? The world is certainly a different place today, thanks to him.

Fenris
Aug 10th 2008, 05:21 PM
Would that include Muhammad?
Yes, it certainly would.

Ta-An
Aug 10th 2008, 05:43 PM
You know, I had a brilliant brainwave today on how to answer you.... and now it's gone!! :B

PS Yeshua was both Man and G_d :)

Fenris
Aug 10th 2008, 05:51 PM
You know, I had a brilliant brainwave today on how to answer you.... and now it's gone!! :BJust post it when it comes back...


PS Yeshua was both Man and G_d :)

I understand this is a cardinal Christian belief. But a Jewish person would ask why such a thing is possible or necessary.

Ta-An
Aug 10th 2008, 06:01 PM
You know.... that He has fulfilled prophesies written in the OT, does not make Him as man just do what He has read in the OT and now the NT copies it to make it make-believe...... :o Can a mere man fulfill all those things and not be Hashem??

The NT actually gives account of OT prophesies as it is fulfilled to prove that He has done what he was expected to do.... Had He not done so, it would have been said... He did not do XYZ.... which I know you are gonna say :rolleyes:... YET, we both now the book of Malechai says He is coming a 2nd time :)

Fenris
Aug 10th 2008, 06:04 PM
You know.... that He has fulfilled prophesies written in the OT, does not make Him as man just do what He has read in the OT and now the NT copies it to make it make-believe...... :o Can a mere man fulfill all those things and not be Hashem??Why not?


The NT actually gives account of OT prophesies as it is fulfilled to prove that He has done what he was expected to do.... Had He not done so, it would have been said... He did not do XYZ.... which I know you are gonna say :rolleyes:...We actually have a list of prophecies Jesus did not fulfill. Those are the ones you are waiting for with the 'second coming'.


YET, we both now the book of Malechai says He is coming a 2nd time :)
Uh, no.

Ta-An
Aug 10th 2008, 06:10 PM
Why not? He has to be Superman..... and not one on Kripton


We actually have a list of prophecies Jesus did not fulfill. Those are the ones you are waiting for with the 'second coming'. Yup



Uh, no. Do I now have to go dig up the history?? :hmm:

Fenris
Aug 10th 2008, 06:14 PM
He has to be Superman..... and not one on KriptonNo. The messiah will be an exemplary human being. But just a human being.
So Jews believe.


Do I now have to go dig up the history?? :hmm:
If you're going to make an assertion about how Jews read the bible, you're going to have to back it up.

Ta-An
Aug 10th 2008, 06:43 PM
No. The messiah will be an exemplary human being. But just a human being.
So Jews believe..Whilst He was on earth, He was fully man...

History.... again I have to say ::

Sligah my dear friend.... :blush:
NOT Malachi :eek:, BUT

Zechariah chapters 9-14 :idea:

And I'll quote Fruchtenbaum again



In Leviticus 26, Moses foretold of how the Jews would be scattered all over the world as a result of disobedience to God’s revealed will. And through verse 39, worldwide dispersion is a fact, fulfilling Moses’ prediction. According to the New Testament, this was caused specifically by the rejection of the Messiahship of Jesus. Then, in Leviticus 26:40-42, Moses states: 40And they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, in their trespass which they trespassed against Me, and also that, because they walked contrary unto Me, 41I also walked contrary unto them, and brought them into the land of their enemies: if then their uncircumcised heart be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity; 42then will I remember My covenant with Jacob; and also My covenant with Isaac, and also My covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. Verse 42 reveals that God has every intent to give Israel all the blessings and promises of the Abrahamic Covenant, especially as it pertains to the Promised Land. But before they can begin to enjoy these blessings and promises of the Abrahamic Covenant, during the Messianic Age, it is first necessary for them to fulfill the condition of verse 40: They must confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers. Notice this: The word “iniquity” is singular, and it is specific. There is one specific iniquity which Israel must confess before she can begin to enjoy all of the benefits of the Abrahamic Covenant.
Jeremiah 3:11-18

The second passage is Jeremiah 3:11-18: 11And Jehovah said unto me, Backsliding Israel hath showed herself more righteous than treacherous Judah. 12Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith Jehovah, I will not keep anger for ever. 13Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against Jehovah thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith Jehovah. 14Return, O backsliding children, saith Jehovah; for I am a husband unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion. 15And I will give you shepherds according to my heart, who shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. 16And it shall come to pass, when ye are multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith Jehovah, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of Jehovah; nether shall it come to mind; neither shall they remember it; neither shall they miss it; neither shall it be made any more. 17At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of Jehovah; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of Jehovah, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the stubbornness of their evil heart. 18In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have for an inheritance unto your fathers.

In verses 14-18, Jeremiah begins to describe the blessing which God has in store for Israel in the Messianic Kingdom. It will be a time of tremendous blessing and restoration for the Jewish people, when the Kingdom is established by their Messiah. But all these blessings are conditioned by verse 13, which declares that they must acknowledge or confess one specific iniquity that they committed against Jehovah their God.

The third passage is in the Book of Zechariah. Zechariah chapters 12, 13 and 14 are a unit of thought that develop one theme. Chapter 13 speaks of the national cleansing of Israel from their sin. Chapter 14 describes the Second Coming of Messiah and the establishment of the Kingdom.

But these events – the cleansing of Israel followed by the Second Coming of Christ and the Messianic Kingdom – are all conditioned on Zechariah 12:10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. Before Israel receives the cleansing of her sin and before Christ returns to establish His Kingdom, Israel must first look “unto” (not “upon” or “on” as in some translations) the One whom they have pierced and plead for His return. Once they do this, then, and only then, will they receive their cleansing and begin to enjoy the blessings of the Messianic Age.

Literalist-Luke
Aug 10th 2008, 06:54 PM
Yes, it certainly would.Surely you're not meaning to suggest that Muhammad was sent by God?

Fenris
Aug 10th 2008, 06:56 PM
Whilst He was on earth, He was fully man...The statement has no meaning to a Jewish person.



And I'll quote Fruchtenbaum again
He is not a reputable source on Jewish beliefs. I'll pick apart what he says-


In Leviticus 26, Moses foretold of how the Jews would be scattered all over the world as a result of disobedience to God’s revealed will. And through verse 39, worldwide dispersion is a fact, fulfilling Moses’ prediction.True.


According to the New Testament, this was caused specifically by the rejection of the Messiahship of Jesus. Since the Jews of the period rejected Jewish standards of behavior, one could just as easily pin it on that. Which is exactly how Jews understand the destruction of the second temple.


Then, in Leviticus 26:40-42, Moses states: 40And they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, in their trespass which they trespassed against Me, and also that, because they walked contrary unto Me, 41I also walked contrary unto them, and brought them into the land of their enemies: if then their uncircumcised heart be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity; 42then will I remember My covenant with Jacob; and also My covenant with Isaac, and also My covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. Verse 42 reveals that God has every intent to give Israel all the blessings and promises of the Abrahamic Covenant, especially as it pertains to the Promised Land. But before they can begin to enjoy these blessings and promises of the Abrahamic Covenant, during the Messianic Age, it is first necessary for them to fulfill the condition of verse 40: They must confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers. Notice this: The word “iniquity” is singular, and it is specific. There is one specific iniquity which Israel must confess before she can begin to enjoy all of the benefits of the Abrahamic Covenant.
Amazingly enough, the word for iniquity in Hebrew in verse 40 is plural.


In verses 14-18, Jeremiah begins to describe the blessing which God has in store for Israel in the Messianic Kingdom. It will be a time of tremendous blessing and restoration for the Jewish people, when the Kingdom is established by their Messiah. But all these blessings are conditioned by verse 13, which declares that they must acknowledge or confess one specific iniquity that they committed against Jehovah their God.Jeremiah was speaking to HIS generation. Which was hundreds of years before Jesus. So how could he be telling them their sin was rejecting Jesus when Jesus wasnt born yet?


Chapter 14 describes the Second Coming of Messiah and the establishment of the Kingdom.I don't see it.


But these events – the cleansing of Israel followed by the Second Coming of Christ and the Messianic Kingdom – are all conditioned on Zechariah 12:10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. Before Israel receives the cleansing of her sin and before Christ returns to establish His Kingdom, Israel must first look “unto” (not “upon” or “on” as in some translations) the One whom they have pierced and plead for His return. Once they do this, then, and only then, will they receive their cleansing and begin to enjoy the blessings of the Messianic AgeWhich does not fit the context of the rest of the chapter.

So he's done a great job of summarizing the Christian position- Not the Jewish understanding.

Fenris
Aug 10th 2008, 06:57 PM
Surely you're not meaning to suggest that Muhammad was sent by God?Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Ta-An
Aug 10th 2008, 06:58 PM
I am so way off the OP..... sori Fenris.... but look at this old thread....http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=53604&highlight=coming

Ta-An
Aug 10th 2008, 06:59 PM
See here Fenris: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=25413&highlight=coming

Fenris
Aug 10th 2008, 07:05 PM
What do you want me to do with that thread? Refute every single one of the fulfilled prophecies? It would take me a week to answer it.

Suffice it to say that the verses you cite are understood differently by Jews.
I am so way off the OP..... sori Fenris.... but look at this old thread....http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=53604&highlight=coming

Fenris
Aug 10th 2008, 07:06 PM
I don't know what you want me to do with this thread.
See here Fenris: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=25413&highlight=coming

Ta-An
Aug 10th 2008, 07:10 PM
I don't know what you want me to do with this thread.
Just to read it ;)

Fenris
Aug 10th 2008, 07:12 PM
Just to read it ;)My dear, the Tanach is not cited once in that thread. Not once.

Ta-An
Aug 10th 2008, 07:29 PM
What do you want me to do with that thread? Refute every single one of the fulfilled prophecies? It would take me a week to answer it. I just wanted you to see.....

Suffice it to say that the verses you cite are understood differently by Jews.

My friend, given all the evidence of Yeshua..... I sincerely :pray: that you will personally take and individual look at all the evidences and see if perhaps He is not the one that the Jews have expected all these years..... :hug:

Ps 119:80 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=119&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=80) Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed.
Ps 25:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me.

Remember, Romans 10 says :: 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Isaiah Chapter 8



יג אֶת-יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת, אֹתוֹ תַקְדִּישׁוּ; וְהוּא מוֹרַאֲכֶם, וְהוּא מַעֲרִצְכֶם. 13 The LORD of hosts, Him shall ye sanctify; and let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread. יד וְהָיָה, לְמִקְדָּשׁ; וּלְאֶבֶן נֶגֶף וּלְצוּר מִכְשׁוֹל לִשְׁנֵי בָתֵּי יִשְׂרָאֵל, לְפַח וּלְמוֹקֵשׁ--לְיוֹשֵׁב, יְרוּשָׁלִָם. 14 And He shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. טו וְכָשְׁלוּ בָם, רַבִּים; וְנָפְלוּ וְנִשְׁבָּרוּ, וְנוֹקְשׁוּ וְנִלְכָּדוּ. {פ} 15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.'

Ta-An
Aug 10th 2008, 07:32 PM
My dear, the Tanach is not cited once in that thread. Not once.
Oh butterfingers..... :blush:
But you read it in any case :)

Fenris
Aug 10th 2008, 08:25 PM
I just wanted you to see.....

My friend, given all the evidence of Yeshua..... I sincerely :pray: that you will personally take and individual look at all the evidences and see if perhaps He is not the one that the Jews have expected all these years..... :hug:
You really believe that Jews don't know what's in our own bible?

Ta-An
Aug 10th 2008, 08:32 PM
You really believe that Jews don't know what's in our own bible? I know you know.... :hug:

Fenris
Aug 10th 2008, 08:35 PM
I know you know.... :hug:
Then why are you asking to to take a look at it again?

The difference between Jews and Christians stems from a different understanding of scripture. By asking me to look at it again, you're implying that I don't know what's in the bible.

Ta-An
Aug 10th 2008, 08:49 PM
Then why are you asking to to take a look at it again?

The difference between Jews and Christians stems from a different understanding of scripture. By asking me to look at it again, you're implying that I don't know what's in the bible. I enjoy gardening..... For I am persistent in sowing seed, and watering that seed ;)

Fenris
Aug 10th 2008, 08:57 PM
I enjoy gardening..... For I am persistent in sowing seed, and watering that seed ;)
Do as you wish.

Ta-An
Aug 10th 2008, 08:59 PM
Do as you wish.:hug: .

tgallison
Aug 11th 2008, 01:06 AM
[quote=Fenris;1744004]Who said God wasn't there?

Fenris greetings

I don't know the answer to this question, but I will ask it anyway. Has any Jew that doesn't believe Jesus is the Messiah had a direct revelation from God in the Last 2,ooo years?


You know, the thought occurred to me that you guys would have a much stronger case if Jesus came prior to the destruction of the first temple...just an idea...

I believe in a Temple made without hands, but you are looking for a physical Temple, where animals can be sacrificed. God has said over and over again that the sacrifice of bull and goats is not pleasing to him. He desires the sacrifice of our hearts, by way of prayers.

Isaiah 66:1-3 "Thus saith the Lord, the heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations."

1 Samuel 15:22 "And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams."

And David said--

Psalm 40:6 "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required."

Psalm 51:16-17 "For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise."

Psalm 141:2 "Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice."

David says we have a better sacrifice at our disposal, other than the blood of bulls and goats.

A Psalm of Asaph--

Psalm 50:12-14 "If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine and the fulness therof. Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:"

Proverbs 21:3 "To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice."

Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil."

Jeremiah 33:11 "The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the Lord of hosts: for the Lord is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the Lord. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the Lord."

Hosea 6:6 "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."

Best regards, terrell

quiet dove
Aug 11th 2008, 04:16 AM
In 586BC king Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians. The Jews were exiled from their land. 70 years later, king Cyrus 'God's anointed' (see Isaiah 45) allowed the Jews to return and the Temple to be rebuilt.

What does Christianity make of the destruction, exile, and eventual return and rebuilding?

Fenris, it depends on who you ask. I do agree that there is a temple built without hands, and that as the NT teaches and ask, "which temple are you" 1Corinthians 3:17 (just if you want to look it up for the context it was said)

However, to say that the believers are the only temple where God exist implies that God can only exist in believers, and I think we would both agree that simply is not true.

It seems to me that through out the OT Israel had it's ups and downs as far as obedience goes, and when disobedience peaked and the people did not return to God and worship only Him, there was a problem. God would try over and over to call His people back and only whey they refused, He had not choice but to discipline them, which brought some very bad things upon them.

When the first temple was destroyed it was for discipline, the nation was not worshiping God but idols. They had not kept Gods commandments and were exiled for 70 years to give the land it's Sabbaths. Then with Cyrus mercy was shown, God promised 70 years and after 70 years the people had opportunity to return and rebuild. ...so skip ahead...Then upon rejecting Christ, discipline was given again. God said more than once in the OT he would scatter the people, and He did(more than once). He also said He would gather them more than once and He has done so, but

I believe there is yet more gathering to be done. He did gather many in Israel, and from the Christians view point, He did so with them in disbelief of who Jesus was.

Now for the temple issue, sorry, I'm from the South, I ramble. The difference of opinion comes in with the Christians because for a temple to be rebuilt for the Jewish worship is contrary to what Christians believe to be in obedience to worshiping God, covered by the righteousness that Jesus paid for, for them. So there fore any building built would not truly be "a temple of God" because the worship therein would be contrary to what God wants.

However, there are many Christians who do believe another temple will be rebuilt, and possibly very soon. Not because they believe it is what God wants, but because they believe that is what scripture teaches will happen. Personally, this is what I believe, that a temple will be built. I don't know how, or when it could possibly happen, but I do believe it will.

And I'll go ahead and throw this out there, but I believe it will be an end times issue, and it will not bring the good Messiah, but the false, a false that will at first be accepted as the True. Only when, as I understand Daniel 9:27, the abomination of desolation is set up in the temple many will flee, understanding then that they have believed in the false one.

The thing is, if my understanding of Daniel 9:27 is correct, there must be a temple. And of course there are many Christians who disagree and those verses in Daniel are hotly debated.

And believe it or not, thats the in a nut shell explanation...LOL

tgallison
Aug 11th 2008, 09:47 AM
I agree with quiet dove.

terrell

Fenris
Aug 11th 2008, 11:45 AM
I don't know the answer to this question, but I will ask it anyway. Has any Jew that doesn't believe Jesus is the Messiah had a direct revelation from God in the Last 2,ooo years?Certainly in the Talmudic era, yes.




I believe in a Temple made without hands, but you are looking for a physical Temple, where animals can be sacrificed. God has said over and over again that the sacrifice of bull and goats is not pleasing to him. He desires the sacrifice of our hearts, by way of prayers.Ezekiel plainly viewed a physical temple in prophecy.


Isaiah 66:1-3 "Thus saith the Lord, the heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations."

1 Samuel 15:22 "And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams."

And David said--

Psalm 40:6 "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required."

Psalm 51:16-17 "For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise."

Psalm 141:2 "Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice."

David says we have a better sacrifice at our disposal, other than the blood of bulls and goats.

A Psalm of Asaph--

Psalm 50:12-14 "If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine and the fulness therof. Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:"

Proverbs 21:3 "To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice."

Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil."

Jeremiah 33:11 "The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the Lord of hosts: for the Lord is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the Lord. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the Lord."

Hosea 6:6 "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."

Best regards, terrell
Then why was Jesus's sacrifice necessary?

tgallison
Aug 13th 2008, 12:38 AM
[quote=Fenris;1745134]Certainly in the Talmudic era, yes.

Why do you believe this?



Ezekiel plainly viewed a physical temple in prophecy.

Fenris would you mind quoting the exact scripture you are refering to? I have been on a trip and it has not been convient for me to reply to you in a timely manner. Forgive my rudeness.


Then why was Jesus's sacrifice necessary?

Would you want to give up your only beloved son or daughter for disobedient and unholy people? God did not desire it, no more than he desired the sacrifice of bulls and goats. The blood of bulls and goats was merely a covering until the fullness of time for Israel. It was merely a reminder to Israel of what God was going to do for Israel. That He would remove forever the sins of man, for those that would hear it.

Righteous judgment demands that sin be punished. God declared to Adam what that punishment would be. Death! Someone must pay that penalty. God has declared that He would accept a ransom, but the ransom couldn't be another sinner, for it was needful for every sinner to have his own ransom. The blood of bulls and goats was not adequate, but God accepted it as a temporary token of ones commitment to Him.

If the Son of God had not died for yours and my sin, it would be necessary that you and I die without hope of a ressurection.

God gave you the picture of his own Son's sacrifice in Abraham and Isaac.

What do you believe God would be more willing to accept? Your sacrifice of works, or his own Son's obedience to the cross?

God loves us all, terrell

Fenris
Aug 13th 2008, 11:15 AM
Why do you believe this?
From stories in the Talmud.




Fenris would you mind quoting the exact scripture you are refering to? I have been on a trip and it has not been convient for me to reply to you in a timely manner. Forgive my rudeness.I actually grabbed this paragraph from another site: http://www.newjerusalemcommunity.net/?c=52&a=1213

The prophet Ezekiel (Ezekiel 40-48) describes in great detail a temple in Israel that is much too large to fit on the present Temple Mount site. The Temple of Ezekiel measures about 875 feet square, and it sits in the middle of a large consecrated area. Ezekiel's temple and the millennium covers the last eight chapters of his book. He gives 318 precise measurements of the temple using some 37 unique words that are architectural terms, such as "door-posts," "windows," etc. Ezekiel's temple is also very different in many details from any previous temples that have existed in Israel (or elsewhere).





Would you want to give up your only beloved son or daughter for disobedient and unholy people? God did not desire it, no more than he desired the sacrifice of bulls and goats. The blood of bulls and goats was merely a covering until the fullness of time for Israel. It was merely a reminder to Israel of what God was going to do for Israel. That He would remove forever the sins of man, for those that would hear it.

Righteous judgment demands that sin be punished. God declared to Adam what that punishment would be. Death! Someone must pay that penalty. God has declared that He would accept a ransom, but the ransom couldn't be another sinner, for it was needful for every sinner to have his own ransom. The blood of bulls and goats was not adequate, but God accepted it as a temporary token of ones commitment to Him.

If the Son of God had not died for yours and my sin, it would be necessary that you and I die without hope of a ressurection.

God gave you the picture of his own Son's sacrifice in Abraham and Isaac.

What do you believe God would be more willing to accept? Your sacrifice of works, or his own Son's obedience to the cross?

God loves us all, terrellOK, so this is basically faith.

tgallison
Aug 13th 2008, 04:18 PM
[quote=Fenris;1747455]From stories in the Talmud.

OK, so this is basically faith.



I actually grabbed this paragraph from another site:

The prophet Ezekiel (Ezekiel 40-48) describes in great detail a temple in Israel that is much too large to fit on the present Temple Mount site. The Temple of Ezekiel measures about 875 feet square, and it sits in the middle of a large consecrated area. Ezekiel's temple and the millennium covers the last eight chapters of his book. He gives 318 precise measurements of the temple using some 37 unique words that are architectural terms, such as "door-posts," "windows," etc. Ezekiel's temple is also very different in many details from any previous temples that have existed in Israel (or elsewhere).

I am not knowledgeable in much of the Old Testament. Are the dimensions of the Temple that was rebuilt in Nehemiah's time listed in the Bible? If not, could Ezekiel's dimensions have been what Nehemiah used?

As you may or may not be familiar with the New Jerusalem described in Revelation 21, it is a city without a Temple, for the Temple of that city is the Son of God. The vision of John is similar in many ways to the vision of Ezekiel.




OK, so this is basically faith.

Well yes, faith that the New Testament is true, just like I have faith that the Old Testament is true.

Fenris
Aug 13th 2008, 04:43 PM
OK, so this is basically faith.Of course. As are tales from the NT, the Koran, and every other holy book. These things are only true because we believe they are...





I am not knowledgeable in much of the Old Testament. Are the dimensions of the Temple that was rebuilt in Nehemiah's time listed in the Bible? If not, could Ezekiel's dimensions have been what Nehemiah used?The dimensions of Ezekiel's temple do not match those of either the first or second temple. They are substantially larger. Hence, they must have been a prophecy of a third temple.


As you may or may not be familiar with the New Jerusalem described in Revelation 21, it is a city without a Temple, for the Temple of that city is the Son of God. The vision of John is similar in many ways to the vision of Ezekiel.Well, I understand that many Christians believe that 'Jesus was/is the Temple'. That's fine if you believe that. Obviously Jews are waiting for an actual temple.






Well yes, faith that the New Testament is true, just like I have faith that the Old Testament is true.Yes, but you interpret it differently...

2Witnesses
Aug 13th 2008, 04:49 PM
Well, like I said, you would have a stronger case if Jesus came prior to the first destruction.
Many men changed the world. Surely they were sent by God. That doesn't mean that they were God though.


Fenris,

You amaze me! He DID come before the 'first destruction'. God sorry 'G-d', sent them Many prophets. But they refused to hear.

Would you be a BIT honest and admit that we divide history into BC and AD???????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????

He wants to change YOUR world as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Fenris.


2Witnesses

Fenris
Aug 13th 2008, 05:08 PM
Fenris,

You amaze me! He DID come before the 'first destruction'. God sorry 'G-d', sent them Many prophets. But they refused to hear.
Right...but Jesus wasn't a prophet. He was God incarnate, sent as a sacrifice for man's sins. In my mind, it would have made a stronger case if he came 600 years earlier.



Would you be a BIT honest and admit that we divide history into BC and AD???????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????Of course we do. Because there are 2 billion Christians. If there were 2 billion Jews we'd be counting from Creation.

BHS
Aug 13th 2008, 06:02 PM
Right, that's true. But does this mean one can be reconciled with God even without sacrifice?

Fenris, I do not quite understand the significance of your first question, but here is my understanding of sacrifice.

Sacrifice was to help man draw near to God. Can God forgive without sacrifice? The answer to that question is somewhat complex in relation to the Israelites. The purpose of the sacrificial system was to point the Israelites to their Messiah (Redeemer), who was really the only sacrifice that could take away man's sin. In God's mind He was slain from the foundation of the earth and so allowed God to forgive at anytime with or without animal sacrifice. The sacrificial system was to teach the Israelites that without an innocent to die in place of them for the penalty of their sin, there could be no forgiveness. But God would not even allow an innocent animal to die for someone who committed "intentional" sin. Jesus was the only innocent man who could be the perfect sacrifice. That was because, as we believe He was God-Incarnate (a belief I understand that you do not hold). Only God is pure and innocent enough to provide/be that sacrifice. But God could forgive man's sin before Jesus' actual death in BC___ AD, because it was a certainty that the sacrifice of Jesus would take place.

So to me, yes the Temple is where sacrifice occurs. But when the physical Temple did/does not stand, God could and can still forgive because of the reality of the ultimate sacrifice of the Messiah (Redeemer), whether past or future.

Are there ways that we can render sacrifice? Yes, I think we should, through a contrite heart with thanksgiving and praise, and prayer. But none take the place of the shedding of blood of an innocent life necessary to remove sin.

Blessings,
BHS

Fenris
Aug 13th 2008, 07:44 PM
Fenris, I do not quite understand the significance of your first question, but here is my understanding of sacrifice.

Sacrifice was to help man draw near to God. I agree.


Can God forgive without sacrifice? The answer to that question is somewhat complex in relation to the Israelites. The purpose of the sacrificial system was to point the Israelites to their Messiah (Redeemer), who was really the only sacrifice that could take away man's sin.
Well, this is a Christian answer. No place in the Tanach does it say or even imply this. That doesn't make it incorrect, of course, but you should realize that it's a faith-based answer...


In God's mind He was slain from the foundation of the earth and so allowed God to forgive at anytime with or without animal sacrifice.Right, but again, this presumes that sacrifice is a necessary component of forgiveness.


The sacrificial system was to teach the Israelites that without an innocent to die in place of them for the penalty of their sin, there could be no forgiveness.This is an assumption made with the hindsight of Jesus's sacrifice.


But God would not even allow an innocent animal to die for someone who committed "intentional" sin.
That's actually true- sacrifices in the bible are only for unintentional sins.



Jesus was the only innocent man who could be the perfect sacrifice. That was because, as we believe He was God-Incarnate (a belief I understand that you do not hold). Only God is pure and innocent enough to provide/be that sacrifice. But God could forgive man's sin before Jesus' actual death in BC___ AD, because it was a certainty that the sacrifice of Jesus would take place. But again, all this assumes that God is incapable of forgiving without sacrifice.


So to me, yes the Temple is where sacrifice occurs. But when the physical Temple did/does not stand, God could and can still forgive because of the reality of the ultimate sacrifice of the Messiah (Redeemer), whether past or future.So God forgave the sins of the Jews and allowed the rebuilding of the temple because of Jesus's future sacrifice?


Are there ways that we can render sacrifice? Yes, I think we should, through a contrite heart with thanksgiving and praise, and prayer. But none take the place of the shedding of blood of an innocent life necessary to remove sin.
Well, I certainly agree with the first half. :)

Blessings,
BHS
And to you!

tgallison
Aug 13th 2008, 08:17 PM
[quote=Fenris;1747785]

The dimensions of Ezekiel's temple do not match those of either the first or second temple. They are substantially larger. Hence, they must have been a prophecy of a third temple.


Fenris where are the dimensions for the second temple found? In what book?

terrell

tgallison
Aug 13th 2008, 08:33 PM
[quote=Fenris;1748025]

Quote:
The sacrificial system was to teach the Israelites that without an innocent to die in place of them for the penalty of their sin, there could be no forgiveness.
This is an assumption made with the hindsight of Jesus's sacrifice.



Didn't the death angel come because of sin? Wasn't the passover lamb to take the place of the firstborn?

terrell

Fenris
Aug 13th 2008, 08:35 PM
Fenris where are the dimensions for the second temple found? In what book?

terrellMany books. It's an archeological site.

In any case, the dimensions Ezekiel described are larger than the temple mount.

Fenris
Aug 13th 2008, 08:46 PM
Didn't the death angel come because of sin?
What does that have to do with sacrifice?


Wasn't the passover lamb to take the place of the firstborn?

No, it was a symbolic slaying of Egypt, since they worshiped cattle. In the temple era, it was a remembrance of the Exodus.

tgallison
Aug 13th 2008, 09:05 PM
Many books. It's an archeological site.

In any case, the dimensions Ezekiel described are larger than the temple mount.

But isn't it true the dimensions were stated in Ezekiel before the second Temple was built?

Fenris
Aug 13th 2008, 09:13 PM
But isn't it true the dimensions were stated in Ezekiel before the second Temple was built?
Yep. And the second temple didn't conform to those dimensions.

This is not some Jewish scam. It is well-known among Christian writers.

tgallison
Aug 13th 2008, 09:26 PM
Yep. And the second temple didn't conform to those dimensions.

This is not some Jewish scam. It is well-known among Christian writers.

Didn't mean to imply it was some sort of scam. Just trying to get a better understanding.

terrell

BHS
Aug 13th 2008, 09:51 PM
Fenris,

Since we believe that He can forgive without animal sacrifice --
Is it your thought, then, that sacrifice of any kind allows God to forgive?
And does not require the slaying of an innocent sacrifice?

Blessings,
BHS

Fenris
Aug 14th 2008, 12:39 AM
Any act of genuine contrition can serve in the place of sacrifice. That's all sacrifice was, anyway- an act of contrition.

Ta-An
Aug 14th 2008, 02:36 PM
Any act of genuine contrition can serve in the place of sacrifice. That's all sacrifice was, anyway- an act of contrition. How can an animal show contrition :hmm:

The animal sacrifices not only stopped because there is no longer a temple, but because no sacrifice can ever match what has been done by Yeshua HaMessiach.
Do you not think that perhaps G_d allowed the Temple to be destroyed because the final sacrifice has been made?? :hmm:


Mal 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=39&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

12 But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.

13 Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.

This verse 11 is so explanatory to me .... a pure offering.... :hug:

2Witnesses
Aug 14th 2008, 04:19 PM
Right...but Jesus wasn't a prophet. He was God incarnate, sent as a sacrifice for man's sins. In my mind, it would have made a stronger case if he came 600 years earlier.


Of course we do. Because there are 2 billion Christians. If there were 2 billion Jews we'd be counting from Creation.


Fenris,

Yeshua was 'that prophet' Moshe spoke of. You must hear Him. If you do not, you will die in your sins.

2Witnesses

Fenris
Aug 14th 2008, 04:29 PM
How can an animal show contrition :hmm:The animal doesn't show contrition. You do, by bringing it...


The animal sacrifices not only stopped because there is no longer a temple, but because no sacrifice can ever match what has been done by Yeshua HaMessiach.
Do you not think that perhaps G_d allowed the Temple to be destroyed because the final sacrifice has been made?? :hmm:How can there be a 'final sacrifice'? In the bible, sacrifices only help the person who brought them, and only for a past accidental misdeed.

Fenris
Aug 14th 2008, 04:30 PM
Fenris,

Yeshua was 'that prophet' Moshe spoke of. You must hear Him. If you do not, you will die in your sins.

2Witnesses
There were many prophets the Moshe spoke of.

Ta-An
Aug 14th 2008, 06:52 PM
The animal doesn't show contrition. You do, by bringing it...
And in Yeshua, He showed that contrition, did He not ??

:hug:

Fenris
Aug 15th 2008, 12:14 AM
And in Yeshua, He showed that contrition, did He not ??

:hug:
That helped him. It doesn't help other people.

Ta-An
Aug 15th 2008, 07:50 AM
That helped him. It doesn't help other people.That is your belief.... but actually, He helped us all :idea:

Fenris
Aug 15th 2008, 09:54 AM
That is your belief....

2Witnesses
Aug 17th 2008, 09:35 AM
There were many prophets the Moshe spoke of.


Yes Fenris,

And they all condemned Israel. But Yeshua, 'THAT prophet', saved and condemned.

2Witnesses

Ta-An
Aug 17th 2008, 11:39 AM
That is your belief....And when are you gonna see it my way :hug:

Teke
Aug 17th 2008, 09:41 PM
What does Christianity make of the destruction, exile, and eventual return and rebuilding?

That God is merciful and hears our prayers.

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 12:33 AM
And when are you gonna see it my way :hug:
When are you gonna see it my way?

Fenris
Aug 18th 2008, 12:36 AM
Yes Fenris,

And they all condemned Israel. But Yeshua, 'THAT prophet', saved and condemned.

2Witnesses
That's a point of faith, not fact. You commonly use your religious beliefs to answer a point as though they were fact. they aren't.